Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII and Chapter XXIII.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
**
** NEW ‘CHAPTER 25’ HAS BEEN STARTED…
Thanks again to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for allowing this important
discussion to continue.
Here is a direct ‘jumplink’ to the newest ‘Chapter’ of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/
BRING IT UP TO THE TOP WOOD
Woodsman says
JANUARY 7, 2017 AT 12:52 AM
RTS,
Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those under his command at the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone? You know, I’m making a connection here with the mindset and training with the wildland program at the Prescott FD with regards to shelters and ‘deployment zones.’ I know me and you are on the same page when it comes to the shelters, pre-planned ‘deployment zones’ (self-fulfilling prophecy?,) GM’s totally inadequate situation/area they attempted to deploy shelters, etc. Shed some light here.
Thanks!
Wood
Here is the death watch–the guinea pig review. Over two hundred showed up at Congress for the funeral services of Robert Carl Moralez, Sr. as I read his obituary in the Wickenburg Sun, January 4, 2017 issue. Robert Moralez, who just turned 50 on November 14 is now dead from cardiac arrest due to bilateral blood clots in his lungs. We were acquainted with Robert since his ranch was in the Stanton Area and he lived downrange from the Tenderfoot fire and as well received good doses of smoke from the Yarnell incident. We wonder how many more deaths of good people will be needed to attract the attention of important citizen support of health issues concerning contaminants in our environment. Specifically we are concerned about inhaling the smoke laden with ammonium and other chemicals vaporized by the intense wildfires and the agent orange look alike retardant.
This area including Yarnell, Stanton, Peeples Valley, Congress and even Wickenburg received intense smoke so that too many suffered its intense effects. I believe Mr. Morales was another victim of the retardant gassing of the middle aged and the elderly, those most susceptible to the gassing effects. Old Adolph is rolling in his grave knowing how many elderly are dying from this type gassing and although his Zyclon B was quicker, the retardant gassing is more subtle and kept under trade secret, while all these deaths are attributed to being elderly. Certainly being elderly is a death warrant against the effects of this retardant gassing.
Stanton is approximately 5 miles SE of Yarnell and was about 3 miles downwind of the Tenderfoot Fire but also received ample doses of the gasses off the Yarnell Fire. We hope WHO or EPA will start taking notice–surely a few of them, their associates or their relatives read these posts on Investigative Media.
But all has been quiet on the issue of the deadly effects of the Agent Orange look alike retardant contamination and its especially devastating effects on the elderly. It is a situation that because the effects are not quickly noticed or reported that the FS continues to believe this chemical contamination of our ground, air and waters is overlooked. You would think that knowing that cyanide and cyanide gases are produced by pouring ammonium sulphates and phosphates upon burning embers. Manzanita is among the hottest fires obtainable in wild fires–especially in the dehydrated states we see in this area. I see where it easily melts lead and aluminum cans–plenty of heat with the carbon to produce the cyanide and gases of the same mixed with what other chemicals we do not publicly know because they are trade secrets. The only thing not secret is the amount of deaths this has caused –proven here in this area where hundreds of thousands of gallons of the agent orange look alike poison has been used in wild land fire fighting.
Carry on if you are able.
My heart goes out to all that were affected by the passing of Robert…
Cindy…David,,,and their son who is a YCSO sheriff who was on YHF 2013 (http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/13-021744-Yarnell-Hill-Case-Rpt.pdf)—>>> I left you message and please if there is anything I can do…I think it is important to look into this…Last I saw Robert he looked not well and he thought it was because he cut his hair off and it was a new look and I was so use to seeing him with long grey curls…I hope the family does not lay closure on Robert waited too long (look into it) like some folks do in this modern medical world…I am one…Brenda and Angel: I am so very sorry for your loss. Bobbette, Levi and girls- and the woman who saved my life Robert’s sister Loretta Lynn (who lost her son h t t p : / /www.wickenburgfuneralhome.c o m /memsol.cgi?user_id=1441240 )…Jack and Kimmy who boards Sonny’s horse and burros. And everyone I am missing to name…sorry for that too. As the desert walker where I traversed from Congress to surrounding towns I often went through the Moralez ranch and I enjoy Kimmy bunches…((((((hugs to you Kimmy))))) When I saw Robert in the desert …he towered over everyone like a giant saggy arrow…I mean saguaro…this is Robert’s dad—Angel:
h t t p :/ /ronbennett.photoshelter.c o m/image/I0000V0x7EI.bDtc
yes they might look familiar,,,the family was on dirty jobs: h t t p :/ /profoundlydisconnected.c o m/a-prick-in-congress/
There is young kids involved so I ask the world to help in donating at this link even if it is five bucks:
https://www.gofundme.com/robert-moralez-and-family
(Joy Collura 11 mins ago Robert: the last I saw you we talked on how I felt you were not well and you said maybe it was the hair and I saw it differently but you and I are stubborn. I got to see you time to time and you always towered me like a larger than life saguaro..to me you were fearless..a powerhouse..strong…and you had the life…the most beautiful wife and kids…some of your stories were intense and clever and some held a sting…and I am donating all I can for today because I know with all my being you are very well loved by family and friends and we want your kids to know we are here for them during the sad sad loss of you. Too young. Actually I am numb and a loss for words…yes me the one who rambles. I think its not cool. I am gonna miss seeing ya on the trails…sending my condolences to you Bobbette and Levi and girls…Angel and Brenda and Jimmy and Jack and Dave and Cindy and Daniel and my lifesaver Loretta Lynn…God be with you all…)
My husband called me and I went to Congress to work on a matter and I saw alot of cars and people and I was grumpy frumpy today and I thought maybe I will go see after I handle matter and when done I saw alot of people still but Sonny had his stuff he wanted so I thought who knows why the people than I gave the Wickenburg Sun to Sonny and there it stated it and I called around and then I knew where they were…the funeral…I am so sorry I missed the memorial but I hope one of you on IM can donate at least five bucks…
when you click on the gofundme link
see how small the world is
Kevin and Amber Grantham donated alot …A Grantham…(Sherrick is the one named in the YCSO report on Tenderfoot fire as the “lead” for arson…yes he is a Grantham…and no he was in Buckeye and the YCSO report is false leading…Kevin is about 4 years younger then me and Amber is about 8 yrs younger…now my bible study pal Lois told me Ellen Mae Oliver, age 97, passed away June 17 2015…which I know the Oliver family…and Amber is an Oliver and married a Grantham…my point here..these are families who have LONG roots to the community and are people who been to Congress for decades after decades after decades so why and how could YCSO allow it to stick and remain that Sherrick could even be the lead in any arson on any fire…down right wrong…YUK!
some people suck. ( http://www.wititudes.com/wp-content/uploads/trying-have-positive-thoughts-only-thing-positive-people-suck-ecard.jpg )
I hope one day the locals who were on the YHF make it right,,,and speak up
http://www.wickenburgfuneralhome.com/memsol.cgi?user_id=1898620
Some of the heroes are behind the scene–we know a few. These are the people close in with officials in high offices including Senators and Representatives in our government. These are people who also have connections with the FBI, CIA, EPA, WHO, Army, Department of Agriculture, and other agencies involved in citizen protection and safety.
All these agencies work in the interest of the American Citizen, his health, comfort, peace abiding, and general well being. There are many heroes among them and they are at our biding to do the jobs they do for us when things need to be done. They do listen to the common citizen-those like myself–but they are more inclined to listen to a Major, Colonel, Lieutenant, officer of the law, Judge, or other codified and recognized citizen leader among us. The weight of their concerns are much heavier than the ordinary citizen and when we address the wild fire situation, retardants, etc., even the lowest degree of wild land fire fighter weighs heavy in voicing his concerns with the situation such as we have been seeing around the country concerning wild land fire fighting.
I would say that Yarnell is not particularly an isolated situation—instead the practices we saw here with the methods that killed the 19 are likely too often common actions throughout the wild land fire fighting profession. What is going on appears to be situations generated without information going to crews. How else can you account for 19 men dropping off into a no win situation other than they believed the higher commands and went forward to act as though they could protect structures in such an intense wild land fire. Even a common citizen can ascertain that it was an impossible situation the same as standing before an atom bomb explosion at ground zero and expecting to survive would be. It is a horror scene in either situation–perhaps less in the atom bomb scene since all is vaporized and nothing remains of the mutilation that takes place. Only an Isis member could appreciate such horror.
What is going on that communications are such that a complete unit of 19 men looses communication during a 30 minute lapse? We have to know that is a lie since there was direct line of sight to the men on the two track from Yarnell, cell phones were plentiful, observation helicopters and planes were overhead, the men were in yellow suits seen for miles, tracking of cell phones by law enforcement is in seconds, and all sorts of bosses, fire fighting teams, radios, etc were availlable to keep track of the situation.
I have at times tried to exonerate Marsh and Steed from the death of their men. Partially because I believe they had orders and with the strict expectations of bosses in the fire fighting profession–with that I believe I am correct.
Another thing that I would say helps the case of Marsh and Steed is that I believe that there were burn outs, back burns and perhaps other agendas at work that Marsh and Steed were unaware of. If the videos that were hidden about the burn out at the Shrine that both Joy and I saw–as well as some others that did see the same video that later disappeared into the ether, then it would likely have been unknown to Marsh and Steed since it was in a canyon just above the Shrine and out of sight of their position on the two track. That is until the 45 mph winds that the Weatherman had warned the bosses would be headed their way. But the my word of the video by Joy and me and our hikes to make sure it was in the Shrine area and even the inspections in the Peeples Valley to see where the burn out was there–something not deleted–but what we needed to verify–and even wild land fire fighter words that they did see that Shrine video of a burn out has no weight since the video disappeared. It would take the expertise of the FBI to retrieve that video.
So if Marsh and Steed dropped their men down in the perilous situation under strict orders without the knowledge of a burn out then that too would mitigate their culpability in the crime of the killing of the 17 young heroes needlessly taken to their deaths.
Perhaps our new Presiden, who promised to prosecute Hillary for her felonies, will attend to looking into the deaths of the 19 and how the population of Yarnell and surrounding towns have suffered death and health problems due to the hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant pollutants dropped in our back yards.
That is where the heroes who are incessantly working this disaster come in. They will be recognized for their efforts and deserve praise for their good works. Those living a lie and knowing the truth only bear illness to their psych and soul.
I was reading where Sheriff Arapaio had spent years investigating Obama’s birth certificate. He had nine points proving the document to be a fraudulent document–something made up to get Obama in office. I have never been a fan of Arapaio, but facts are facts–and yet the American public is willing to accept things without question. They believed Obama, not Arapaio and most were never willing to even look at the evidence Arapaio produced. We do live in a dummed down society.
About the Shrine video–a Mr. Brandon did say publicly according to very intelligent and competent sources who witnessed this–that he was in the Shrine area doing a burnout. The Chief of Peeples Valley fire department denied that he even knew Brandon and attested that Brandon did not even work for Peeples Valley. He should know since he said he has been there as Chief for 15 years. Joy has the conversation recorded. So where is the video now?
Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2017 at 12:52 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> RTS,
>>
>> Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those
>> under his command at the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a
>> ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone?
I don’t know what Willis actually ‘said’ to RTS, but when asked about the ‘Tennis Court’ by InvestigativeMEDIA reporter John Dougherty ( back in December of 2013 )… Willis responded ‘in writing’ ( via email ) that YES… he DID consider the ‘Tennis Court’ to at least have been a viable ‘Deployment Zone’ for all 31 ( THIRTY ONE ) firefighters working out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
See the following ( longer ) post about that… including links to Willis’ actual ’email’ responses…
** WILLIS SAID ( IN WRITING ) THAT THE TENNIS COURT
** WAS A ‘DEPLOYMENT ZONE’.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-469796
And just 23 days after those 31 firefighters working under Willis’ command at the Double-Bar-A Ranch *almost* had to test Willis’ ‘theory’ about the tennis court having been a viable ‘deployment zone’… Willis himself admitted he ( personally ) had no frickin’ idea even what the upper temperature limit(s) were for a standard Wildland Fire Shelter.
From the transcript of Willis’ July 23, 2013 press conference held out at the actual deployment site…
———————————————————————————————-
Reporter: Chief Willis… how hot would it had to have been for those shelters to breakdown? At what temperature does that start to happen?
Darrel Willis: I don’t know the facts on that.
———————————————————————————————-
WTKTT,
I guess I would place myself in the same category with Willis. I know that direct flame contact delaminates them and breaks them down very quickly. That’s all i need to know. I don’t care really because it doesn’t matter to me while on the firelines.
I am reminded of the exact temperature every time I teach a basic S-130 Wildland Firefighter course and I am REQUIRED to show the lame video.
I agree with the narrator when he states: “Fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing countless burn injuries every fire season.”
Well, I can confidently attest that ‘knowing, understanding, and following the Ten Standard Fire Orders and knowing, recognizing, and mitigating the 18 (19) Watch Out Situations are responsible for saving tens of thousands of WFF lives each and every fire season.
Hindsight bias? Nope, once again, tried-and-trued experience.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 7, 2017 at 10:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I guess I would place myself in the same category with Willis.
>> I know that direct flame contact delaminates them and breaks them
>> down very quickly. That’s all i need to know.
Well… even that would have been a better ‘answer’ from someone who was being paid to call himself a ‘Wildland Division Chief’ than just “I don’t know”.
A better answer from Willis to the reporter’s question would have been something along the lines of…
“Despite the amateur-hour cartoon drawings you all have been seeing lately in the papers which are pretending to show how ‘fire shelters’ work… let me assure you that these ‘shelters’ were NEVER designed to withstand direct-flame contact, which is what happened here at THIS obviously inadequate deployment site. Next question.”
By the way… even the SAIT ( of which Willis was a contributor ) published the actual ‘numbers’.
From PDF page 93 of the original SAIR document…
—————————————————————————-
Temperatures:
The table below lists temperature data corresponding to the various post-incident material conditions, as reported by manufacturers and independent testing.
For human tenability, the National Research Council of Canada (NRCC) fire tests indicate that 300 Degrees Fahrenheit is the maximum survivable breathing air temperature, but only for short periods and in the absence of moisture.
xxx F = Degrees / Fahrenheit
Material – Temperature limit(s)
—————————————————-
Silica cloth – Brittle Estimated 2000 F
Quartz Thread – Brittle 2000 F
Fiberglass – Brittle 1350 to 1610 F
Aluminum Foil – Melt 1,220 F
Aramid Cloth – Char 824 F
Aramid Cloth– Stiff/Brittle 710 F
Glove Leather – Shrinkage 45% 600 F
Aramid Cloth Dye – Sublimation (Discolored) 400 F
Glove Leather – Shrinkage 10% 350 F
Helmet Polycarbonate – Softens 325 F
Human Tenability ( Surivability ) – 300 F
Foil/Shelter Cloth Bond – Delamination 500 F
—————————————————–
So according to this “manufacturer’s information” and “testing data” contained in the SAIR itself…
Standard Wildland Fire Shelters will begin to DELAMINATE at 500 Degrees F, just 200 degrees above what is considered the maximum ‘survivable’ temperature of 300 Degrees F.
So plan accordingly. The life you save will be your own ( and others ).
Perhaps this chart SHOULD be posted in the ‘day rooms’ for Hotshot Crews, right underneath the ( required ) PUBLIC workplace notification(s) that you can, in fact, ‘opt out’ of the infamous ‘exclusive remedy’ clause of worker’s compensation policies if you ‘elect’ to do so.
Thanks for that information WTKTT–Amanzing you should come up with information that every wild land fire fighter should know and be able to say in a heartbeat. It goes to show how ignorant too many bosses are about the safety equipment they have available.
When Gary indicated these blankets were turkey roasters, he was right on and the fact that 300F is the upper limit for survival breathing in a short span of time shows that the only alternative would have been to run to the boulders where there was about a football sized area and places to get below the ground where breathing temperatures would have been low enough to survive.
It shows how little the GMHS crew knew about survivability in the small area they cut out–there was absolutely no chance of surving in that dense manzanita and especially with piling more brush around their perimeter.
Good lord who trained those men– The next time we have a wild fire here let it be known to the crews that battle it how little chance it is to survive in those blankets in this type terrain and dense manzanita. Let them know how the many boulder patches are a safer bet to run to in this area and most of them have below ground protection with boulder cover above.
Note that Joy and Sonny watched Eric Marsh in that early morning cross the fire edge back and forth in the boulder area where it was burning. That should have been a light bulb in his head. The others watching out for the boulder areas had a hell of a lot better chance of survival by running there rather than remaining in a dense manzanita patch where those flimsy blankets will only withstand 500F and the air is definitely going to be above 300F at ground level.
It certainly stands to reason if the men are educated as to the poor safety of remaining or getting themselves trapped in dense manzanita they will realize the alternatives and run like hell to boulder areas or areas of sparse vegetation rather than commit suicide by remaining in such an area as the bosses of GMHS caused them to do.
Buiochas! WTKTT–suaitinseach eolas. (Thanks! WTKTT–remarkable information.)
A thought about contamination–It was well known that for years during the late 1800’s that Arsenic was used in wall paper to turn it green. Many of the English magnates were remaining wealthy by way of their mines and through production of the popular green colors that the dyes of Arsenic produced–that despite their knowledge of Arsenic being a deadly poison.
For years the English continued the use of Arsenic and it was never outlawed for its dye use although people started in time to realize that the arsenic in their wall paper, candle dyes, paper dyes, etc were causing illness and death. That shows how strong the denial can be toward contaminants dangerous to health can be. The propaganda the magnates uphel did help to add to the inertia of change and so illness from arsenic poison and the thousands of deaths it caused –sometimes immediate deaths were glossed over and laid to other causes. The same magnate mentality remains with us to this very day.
I can say that the two years I worked at the Noble Mine owned by the Canadian Vern Harkness and other parties left behind abundant tailings rich in Arsenic. The ore was Arseno-pyrite –and when powdered through the ball mill so that the gold, palladium, rhodium and other values were removed–the tailing were left to leach into ground waters. I wonder how much contamination went into the water system down creek where Pine Valley, CA is located since the 40 years ago when I worked there. You certainly would want to check your water source if you live in that area.
Then after the time of the Arsenic, we move into the times of lead and its many uses in paint. Kids have died from chewing paint and we know that if you were brought up within a ten mile radius of the El Paso Lead Smelter, your IQ will be ten points below the norm. Some I know would have qualified for the moron status (now with the new political polite and correct term mentally challenged status). But out of the area they did make it just above 70 and so those can certainly be thankful they are not so challenged.
The idea is that we are so very slow in recognizing the contaminants that are deadly. Generally since the beginning of industrialization, the magnates know what their contaminants are doing. yet the profits will continue to keep their eyes turned away from the damage they do to humanity.
They will say, but look what good the Arsenic is doing during that age, and during the lead age they will say look how much lead is serving us-especially lead bullets, solder on our pipes and paint on the walls.
Then we think how ignorant the people of the times were–Arsenic, Lead, prevalent use of Cyanide, Mercury cures and so on.
Now that we are so advanced in our scientific knowledge, we have n come to using and contaminating our environment with the most deadly element on the planet–namely Plutonium and with it the Uranium and all their isotopes. It takes only one atom of Plutonium to give you cancer–and cancer is rampant–but not only causes by the radioactive elements.
And we do see that science is turning a blind eye to the realities of the contamination produced by the retardant poisons and the poisons produced by dumping retardant on wild land fires. But despite all good intentions and some not so good intentions (greed contamination), the producers and spreaders of this pollution are causing the illness and deaths resulting from these chemicals. So we continue to live in another chapter of an era of the dummed down population while the continued use of these pollutants continue to do their harm.
Maybe old Jesus was correct in his idea that Money is a prime root of evil.
Or maybe the translators were off a bit about Jesus and should have said Greed is the greater root of evil.
Charlie,
You posted: “Maybe old Jesus was correct in his idea that Money is a prime root of evil.”
No maybe about it. Jesus is ALWAYS correct. It was you that was incorrect.
In 1 Timothy 6:10, The Bible says: “For the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil; some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.” (NIV) (EMPHASIS ADDED)
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/
Thank you, Joy.
And thanks once again to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for allowing this important discussion to continue.
Reply to diane lomas post on January 5, 2017 at 8:41 pm
>> diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Do we know anyone on the fire who spoke with a cajun accent ?
It has never actually been ‘verified’ that the person who made that radio call directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM ( asking him what Granite Mountain’s current ‘stay-tus’ was ) WAS speaking with a ‘Cajun’ accent.
It COULD have just been some other flavor of ‘southern drawl’. Maybe even a ‘Tennessee’ accent.
But ( speaking for myself only )… if that ‘recording’ showed up as an ‘Audio Final Jeopardy’ with the setup “Identify the following accent”… then I would probably bet everything I had earned on the show so far and ‘write’ on my ‘answer card’…
“What is… CAJUN?”
Even Holly Neill noticed the ‘accent’ on this person who was speaking directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM when she was sending private emails to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg.
Holly Neill was getting a LOT of the ‘background radio conversations’ WRONG as she was trying to describe them to ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg… but even Holly Neill went out of her way to point out to Krotenberg that whoever was speaking directly to Eric Marsh at that point was pronouncing the word ‘status’ as ‘STAY-TUS’.
But even then… and even with her continued ‘investigations’… there is nothing that suggests either Holly Neill or her co-investigator ( Eric Marsh’s old friend Alan Sinclair ) ever lifted one finger to try and ‘identify’ the owner of the ‘voice’ itself, even with all the ‘contacts’ and ‘sources’ available to THEM.
I still say it should be pretty easy to ‘identify’ this person that was speaking directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM… but no one has ever bothered to do so.
Someone who was THERE that day most certainly KNOWS who that person was.
Yeah but wwtktt
Alan Sinclair is more than a tie to Holly Neill and fire industry..he was Eric’s best friend for a long time so can’t that factor weigh in…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 7, 2017 at 1:23 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Yeah but wwtktt
>>
>> Alan Sinclair is more than a tie to Holly Neill and fire industry..he
>> was Eric’s best friend for a long time so can’t that factor weigh in…
“weigh in”… in what way?
What, exactly, were you trying to say there?
That because he was Eric Marsh’s friend… he has some kind of ‘built in’ excuse for NOT trying to find out ( or even care ) what really happened to him?
no I did not mean it that way… meaning because the world does not know how tied in he was at Eric’s long time friend that it was his duty to ensure any data being made to the world showed how he came to it so those folks who can try to discount it that maybe he was bias that the documents presented to world of how he got there would ensure the world knew he was doing it in a pure investigative manner versus any focus shifting to protecting or out of brotherly honor…just the simple acts presented and maybe expressing how things stated came to be…
Built in excuse, really?
How about Sinclair actually being a true friend and really caring about him and what happened.
And what do you base that on, just how is he trying to “not find out ( or even care )?
And if he knows what happened, then good for him. Hopefully, he will share that with others someday.
How long does to take before retired firefighters can speak feels out what happened on fires such as the Yarnell hill fire without fear of retaliation and negative career and pension consequences?
Freely not feels
That is one of your best questions Diane. How long indeed. Well, Dr. Ted Putnam has been investigating the Mann Gulch Wild Fire for a number of years–he has uncovered information that was known and withheld since 1949. When he was lead investigator at Storm King fire that killed 14 and protested at the cursory investigative situation he knew it would be a black ball situation against him but went ahead with his report as he saw it.
So there are a few wild land investigators that want all the facts brought out and a thorough and proper investigation made of these deaths–but at the peril of their careers.
The idea is to lay no blame and if errors in execution are made keep them quiet to the public view and at a detriment to lives of future wild land fire fighters.
To expose the gross errors made at Yarnell and even the Tenderfoot fires would not take away from the heroism of fire fighters. But it is a shame these men fear for their reputations over the safety and education of future wild land fire fighters under their supervision.
Keep asking the questions– you will notice that some of us don’t know the questions, much less the answers.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
January 7, 2017 at 10:32 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Built in excuse, really?
>>
>> How about Sinclair actually being a true friend and
>> really caring about him and what happened.
>>
>> And what do you base that on, just how is he trying
>> to “not find out ( or even care )?
Well… first off… all I was trying to do above was take a good ‘guess’ at what Joy herself might have been trying to say regarding Sinclair and his own ‘investigation’ efforts ( in conjunction with Holly Neill ).
I still haven’t been able to ‘parse’ her full response successfully and get anything but ( apparently ) a confirmation that my simple ‘guess’ is NOT what she was ‘trying’ to say about Sinclair’s ‘motivations’ ( or lack thereof ).
But secondly… YES… I believe that ( among others )… both Sinclair and Neill don’t appear to have ‘lifted a finger’ to actually ‘identify’ the owners of the very ‘voices’ they, themselves, were hearing after having been some of the first ‘citizens’ to obtain copies of the Panebaker Air Study videos.
Alan Sinclair is a ‘Type 2 Incident Commander’ in the same ‘region’ who is/was probably VERY familiar with many of the people working the Yarnell Fire… but there is still no evidence he, or Holly Neill ( or anyone else with their same ‘resources’ and ‘sources’, for that matter? ) has ever made any attempt to actually ‘identify’ these ‘voices’ that are clearly heard communicating directly with Eric Marsh during the SAIT’s ( alleged ) ‘blackout period’.
Just more ‘lost opportunities’ to know more about what was REALLY ‘going down’ that afternoon.
Perhaps the ‘reason’ is similar to that old Q/A adage…
“Q: Why does it always seem like something you are looking for ends up being in the LAST place you look?”
A: Because when you FIND it… you STOP LOOKING”.
If one’s reasons for ‘investigating’ are/were ‘biased’ and ‘goal oriented’… then when you think you have found what you WANTED to find… you tend not to continue to ‘follow where the evidence leads you’ and find out what, perhaps, you did NOT want to ‘find’ ( like WHO was saying things, and not just the fact that they WERE ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And if he knows what happened, then good for him.
>> Hopefully, he will share that with others someday.
Hopefully… ANYONE who might ‘know more than what is currently publicly known’ about this historic National Tragedy will look past their own ‘personal’ reasons for ‘keeping secrets’ and one day ‘share what they know’.
It is still unknown what Sinclair’s ‘relationship’ is/was with author John Maclean.
What DOES appear obvious is that both he and Holly Neill seemed to feel they needed his ‘permission’ to publish that little bit of ‘investigating’ they already did… and that if it was to be published at all ( before there is any actual ‘book’ from Maclean )… then it was to be ‘published’ on Maclean’s OWN ‘website’ ( which is exactly what happened ).
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 6, 2017 at 12:22 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> According to Willis himself, he did not designate a tennis court for
>> a SAFETY ZONE for those prison inmates under his supervision.
Really?… well… according to one of those inmates… SOMEONE did.
If Willis himself did not ‘designate’ the ‘Tennis Courts’ as the alternate ‘Safety Zone’ for those two-dozen+ men working that area if their one-and-only access road escape route got ‘cut off’ ( which is exactly what almost happened and the actual reason for the ADOSH ‘citation’ )…
…then what, exactly, did Willis have in mind as a ‘Safety Zone’ for those men?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> He said that allegation, which led to an ADOSH citation, was solely on the word of
>> a single AZ DOC inmate without it ever being verified and/or corroborated.
That is a very misleading statement.
The designation of a ‘tennis court’ as a ‘Safety Zone’ was NOT what ‘led to the ADOSH citation’.
That ‘testimony’ about the ‘Tennis Court’ coming directly from one of the actual members of the Lewis DOC crew was simply just ‘mentioned’ in that one ( of many ) ‘Willful Serious’ workplace safety violations issued by ADOSH.
It only occupies ONE sentence in the ‘Citation’… and was NOT the ‘primary reason’ for the issuance of that citation at all.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I was originally one of the ones that believed the original allegation, however, once I
>> talked with Willis, he told me otherwise and I believe him.
Fine. When you run into him again… ask him exactly what he DID plan to do with ALL of those men if that one-and-only access road to the Double-Bar-A-Ranch had become compromised ( which is what ALMOST HAPPENED that day )… and they would have ALL had to ‘ride it out’ there at the Double Bar A Ranch.
Would Willis have then told them to ‘try’ the ‘Tennis Courts’, given no other choice?
The following document contains both the actual ‘Willful Serious’ Citations issued by ADOSH… and the ‘short’ text for each ‘citation’ issued… AND it also contains the ‘longer’ versions of the ‘citations’ ( with more detail about each one )…
ADOSH Web Documents / ASFD Worksheets.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAD09OJn_pqxKkqbNfFMLz8Xa/ADOSH%20Web%20Documents?dl=0&preview=ASFD+Worksheets.pdf
The actual ‘Willful Serious’ Citation itself only says the following with regard to the ‘near entrapment’ of the resources that were under SPGS2 Darrell Willis’ direct command and working out at the ‘Double-Bar-A Ranch’…
——————————————————————————–
Citation 1 – Item 1 – Type: WILLFUL SERIOUS
Instance (a) ( of FOUR instances )…
a) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, between 1230 and 1430, and after the general public had been evacuated, thirty-one members of Structure Protection Group 2, charged with protecting non-defensible structures in the vicinity of the Double Bar A Ranch, were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————————–
No mention of a ‘Tennis Court’ at all in that original verison of that one ( of many ) citations.
In the ‘detail’ section regarding this ‘Willful Serious’ workplace safety violation citation issued by ADOSH is where we get the ‘mention’ of the ‘tennis court’ ( for just one sentence )… but as you can see… the ‘tennis court’ thing itself was NOT the primary reason for issuing this particular ‘Willful Serious’ citation…
———————————————————————————
Instance a:
Hazard:
Employees assigned to Structure Protection Group 2 were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire. On the morning and early afternoon of June 30, 2013, fire management assigned thirty one firefighters of Structure Protection Group 2 to provide point protection and structure protection at Double Bar A Ranch. Fire management previously identified structures at the Ranch as non-defensible. A tennis court designated as a safety zone was known to be too small for the approaching 40 foot long flames. Fire management observed air tanker retardant drops to be ineffective at suppressing fire progression. Despite fire management’s knowledge of existing conditions, the impending hazard, failure to control or suppress active fire, and the known futility of attempting to protect non-defensible structures, management assigned employees to protect the Double Bar A Ranch, and permitted employees to remain at the Ranch conducting burnout operations until the last moments before escape. Although escape was successful, fire management’s decision-making incorrectly prioritized the value of non-defensible structures ahead of firefighter safety which violated both State and Interagency wildland fire policy and procedures. As the day progressed, fire management continued to fail to re-evaluate, re-prioritize or update suppression efforts based on existing and expected conditions which resulted in additional exposures described below.
———————————————————————————
The actual ‘basis’ for just this one ( of many ) ‘Willful Serious’ workplace safety violations determined by ADOSH relied heavliy on the testimony of Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ).
Warbis and Lenmark testified to ADOSH that THEY are the ones who felt that Darrell Willis and his ‘resources’ working out at the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ were ‘task fixated’ and were NOT fully aware of the dangerous ‘entrapment’ situation that was developing out at that location.
Warbis and Lenmark were the ones that noticed that a separate ‘head’ of the fire was ABOUT to ‘cut off’ their one-and-only ingress/egress access road to/from that ‘Double Bar A Ranch’… and Warbis and Lenmark were worried enough that Wills and his forces were ‘oblivious’ to what was happening that THEY took it upon themselves to WARN Willis of the developing ‘entrapment’ situation.
Only then ( after the WARNING from Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ) did Willis actually issue the order for his resources to ‘evacuate’ from the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’.
Willis made no mention ( in any of his ADOSH interviews ) of this WARNING from Warbis and Lenmark being the reason for when he made his last-minute decision to evacuate that Ranch, in the nick of time. Willis made it sound like it was all ‘his idea’.
The full ADOSH interview with ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) is still sitting online in the following ADOSH DOI/BLM Interview(s) folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABfSpB5Xy5uDUnjgJhuxs93a/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/DOI-BLM/Interview%20Transcripts?dl=0
Filename: Rusty Warbis & Paul Lenmark Interviews 9-23-13 redacted.pdf
( NOTE: The only redactions in this ‘Bravo 3’ Warbis/Lenmark interview transcript are on some spoken-out-loud ‘phone numbers’ ).
The part of the ADOSH interview where the investigators were asking Warbis and Lenmark directly if they though Willis and his ‘resources’ knew what they were doing and where Warbis and Lenmark say they believed Willis was (quote) “oblivious to the fire around them” begins around line 573 in the testimony.
Just one excerpt from this part of their ‘testimony’…
————————————————————————————
587 A or A1: Two heads that are running down, and, ah, one of those heads, um, appeared
588 to threaten the ingress and egress of those people that were working those
589 structures.
590
591 Q: So you were concerned about their safety and where they could go?
592
593 A or A1: Actually, I told them, ah, – at some point I – they were very, um, they were
594 very attentive to the structures. They weren’t – like I said, they were- seemed
595 to be a little oblivious to, um, where they were and, um, and I told them that if
596 ya – you better have a good spot to be that you’re willing to ride this out or
597 you need to, um, there was another fire…
————————————————————————————
“I TOLD them that if ya – you better have a good spot to be that you’re
willing to ride this out.”
And according to that testimony from that member of the DOC Lewis crew… the ‘spot’ where they were all being told ( by SOMEONE ) they could ‘ride it out’ ( if they lost their ability to egress via that one-and-only road to the Ranch ) was the ‘Tennis Courts’ there by the structures.
wwtktt said:
Fine. When you run into him again… ask him exactly what he DID plan to do with ALL of those men if that one-and-only access road to the Double-Bar-A-Ranch had become compromised ( which is what ALMOST HAPPENED that day )… and they would have ALL had to ‘ride it out’ there at the Double Bar A Ranch.
MY REPLY/INQUIRY
always been my beef…that if the Lewis crew or GMHS got cut off and had no safety zone than HOW COME they did not meet the helicopter at the helispot which was not on fire that area and which was not smokey had the stayed in the black they could of went a little further and got picked up…they could of been picked up and dropped off at Congress Fire Dept helispot..I will never get it and leads to support Sonny’s views of some order in which I like to rephrase always as “boss’s or other boss’s guidance”…higher influential guidance than themselves…if it is the same as an order..so be it…
In response to a comment by RTS, wwtktt said:
“Fine. When you run into him (Willis) again… ask him exactly what…………………..”
I’ll add to that my own question for RTS::
Also, ask him what were the exact words McDonough spoke to him (Willis) prior to he and the city attorney making a bee-line the the state attorney general’s office?
Willis stated publicly that the City Attorney’s version which was published in the news was “incorrect”, so what, exactly, is the CORRECT version of that conversation, which was so explosive that they headed-off to Phoenix without delay after the weekend was over.
You should ask him THAT question, and demand a succinct and straight answer, and I’m reasonably certain that for the most part, our investigative efforts here will be over.
It is beyond me to fathom, how people can have conversations and ask questions of the principle people of this tragedy, and not ask them the MOST IMPORTANT questions that need to be asked of that particular individual.
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
JANUARY 7, 2017 AT 10:03 AMIt is beyond me to fathom, how people can have conversations and ask questions of the principle people of this tragedy, and not ask them the MOST IMPORTANT questions that need to be asked of that particular individual.
SO TRUE but I learned it is something you just don’t do in this state of Arizona…you never ask the MOST IMPORTANT questions or debate a pushy aggressive person and you never ever want to question any one in an authoritarian role
TTWARE,
Thanks for your comments. I will make it a point to ask him those questions the next time I see him in person, hopefully this Spring.
**
** WILLIS SAID THE TENNIS COURT WAS A ‘DEPLOYMENT ZONE’.
On December 11 of 2013, InvestigativeMEDIA published a series of EMAILED ‘responses’ from Darrell Willis regarding questions arising from the published ADOSH report.
One of those ‘questions’ to Willis was concerning the ‘Tennis Court Safety Zone’ issue.
Willis ‘officially’ responded… but did NOT take the opportunity to DENY that the ‘Tennis Court’ WAS being considered a ‘place to go’ for those firefighters under his command.
Willis just said it was more like a ‘Deployment Zone’ than a ‘Safety Zone’.
31 men… ‘deploying’ on a hard-surface ‘Tennis Court’ surrounded by flammable trees.
Yea… that was gonna work.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshots Were Asked if they Could Protect Yarnell
Published: December 11, 2013 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell/
From that article…
—————————————————————————
ADOSH determined that not only were the firefighters facing the possibility of serious injury or death, a tennis court designated as their safety zone “was known to be too small for the approaching 40-foot-long flames.”
That Willis or state fire managers designated a tennis court as a safety zone for 31 ( THIRTY ONE ) firefighters facing such a serious threat outraged retired wildfire fatality investigator Dick Mangan, who now runs a wildfire private-consulting business in Missoula, Montana.
Mangan was a lead investigator on the 1994 South Canyon fire where 14 firefighters died. “That’s totally stupid to say a tennis court is going to be a safety zone,” he says. “That’s idiocy of the first order.”
Willis did not answer questions concerning the prison crew’s decision to abandon its post and on the lack of an adequate safety zone. The queries were e-mailed to him and to public-information officer Wertheim, who advised that city legal staff had advised the chief not to comment because a notice of claim (the precursor to a lawsuit) has been filed against the city regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.
( Willis sent a response to the questions that was received after publication of this story. His response is at the end of this story.)
( snip )
WILLIS RESPONSE
InvestigativeMEDIA received the following email at 12:31 p.m., Dec. 11, 2013 from Pete Wertheim, Prescott’s public information officer:
This e-mail is in response to your comments/questions that you sent to Chief Willis on 12/8/13. This information was provided by Chief Willis:
Question/Comment #2
OSHA states that a 20-member Yuma prison crew under your command “packed up and left” the fire at 1 p.m.
Response to Question/Comment #2
The Yuma Department of Corrections Crew (DOC) did in fact work under the direction of Chief Willis the morning of June 30th in the Double Bar A Ranch area. They were developing a firing plan for the property, when the Yuma DOC crew stated they had limited experience with firing operations so they, along with other resources at the time, were replaced by crews with that experience.
Question/Comment #3
In addition, OSHA states the tennis court designated as a safety zone “was known to be too small for the approaching 40 foot flames.”
Response to Question/Comment #3
The tennis court was, at most, a Deployment Zone to be used as a last ditch life saving site.
—————————————————————————
Again… the response ( supposedly direct from Darrell Willis ), regarding the Arizona OSHA claim that a member of the DOC Lewis crew testified they were told to consider the ‘Tennis Court’ at the Double-Bar-A-Ranch a valid ‘Safety Zone’…
“The tennis court was, at most, a Deployment Zone to be used as a last ditch life saving site.”
Willis does not specifically DENY ( even though he had this direct opportunity to do so ) the statement made in the Arizona OSHA report. Willis just ‘qualifies’ the statement and says the ‘Tennis Court’ was more like a ‘Deployment Zone’ than a real ‘Safety Zone’.
If Willis never considered the ‘Tennis Courts’ to be any kind of ‘Safety’ and/or ‘Deployment Zone’ at all ( and never instructed anyone under his command to even consider it as such )… then why didn’t he just say so when he had this ( official ) opportunity to do so?
And before anyone says those ‘answers’ above might have been coming from the Prescott PIO instead of Willis himself… then be sure to notice what the PIO himself says in his email to John Dougherty…
“This information was provided by Chief Willis:”
WTKTT,
Thanks for your usual thorough and documented responses.
So then, it appears that if everything is based on whatever written records there is of everything, then there is no further need to dig any deeper. It is what it is.
I just posted what I remembered of the conversation I had with the man over year ago.
I love my new watch slash cell…too cool…I hate having a phone and I can do a watch…its a heart health thing too…love the lil sucker…
so anyways back to tennis courts…awaiting a program to download then out I go…
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c9/30/1f/c9301f1e5e6f9cfb5ab1f13c92c86fc8.jpg
So I am heading up the hill to Sonny soon…just wanted to let some locals know:
1. click on your keyboard at same time CTRL and F
then you should see a box in right corner.
2. In that box enter any topic like “tennis courts” and it will show all areas on that page where “tennis courts” is…as you are on this chapter but strongly suggest go to each chapter and search each chapter with your word “tennis courts” I learned it from a smart person. I am not so savvy…I call that person aka bleacher person…
I hope your 2017 is going great…I almost got a job yet rerouted position to another local…actually 3 jobs rerouted…Sonny almost bought a huge ass truck today…Tomorrow begins a very cool journey…
so I hope you all have a cool journey…until then…BE HAPPY!
Woodsman-
when I say “Ryan Zinke”…you say __________
I say he’s a retired career naval officer, SEAL, turned Montana senator and supposed pick to head the Department of Interior in the next administration. Interesting. I’m not so sure Commander Zinke would be too impressed at the ‘performance’ of the NPS fire suppression efforts in Tennessee…I would imagine it to be substandard in his opinion. But that’s merely a wild-ass guess on my part. Time will tell.
Wood
would you ever meet in person Zinke if you had the opportunity…is he already in NYC/DC with Trump? hmmm…
Joy,
Would I ever meet Zinke in person if I had the opportunity? Absolutely.
I have no idea where he is & never heard of him before the announcement of his new duty station until a couple weeks ago.
Woodsman
Well, WOODSMAN, there may very well be a need
to plan for organizing, just such, an opportunity in the near future and, altho’ Whitefish is pretty far north; perhaps, you’re located that much closer, seeing as how NYC or DC is going to be a lot farther away, at any rate? If you would care to be involved in said endeavor (I’m assuming, that you do NOT, necessarily, detest “republicans” …can you be mobile for a period of up to 4 days’ time for this event)? If so, please, feel free to contact me by the following means…by throwing up your poms poms.and say HOORAY! 🙂
near 142 Lake Creek Meadows/75 is the closest pinpoint I can possibly give ya where the poms poms get raised to HOORAY- Wood….sorry for the vague public dialect of exact location..that has to be off here that topic…it is not far from the Johnston Peak…could that help you decide if you can make the event or not?
Wrong area Wood-
Sorry
I thought that was location…I don’t have text…480.280.5813
this comment is wrong Wood:
Cheerleader says
JANUARY 9, 2017 AT 5:27 PM
I had it on my page “open” awaiting further details. My mom called…Sonny called…my husband called so I had 3 lines I was at and I was packing and my dog and cat were on the page so it was on there ready to post with captcha ready so all I can think is one of the pets hit the touch screen because I saw it posted when I came back in and later it was confirmed at 6pm it is not the location…sorry…if John D wants to edit or remove it fine but it was in draft mode and it ended up posting….I know there is folks who would be like ???? simple error.
Joy,
I detest no one unless I have a really good reason…and a ‘label’ such as Republican or Democrat isn’t one of them, The ‘labels’ are an engineered strategy by the powers-that-be to pit man against man, to separate people from one another instead of unite. This makes it easier to control the masses and distract folks from the REAL issues. People fall into the trap day after day after day. It’s maddening… Think for yourselves, people!!
I would love to bend the ear of the next head of the Interior Department…no, I NEED to do it. Alas, due to bills to pay & several mouths to feed etc., I don’t possess the necessary discretionary funds for the travel & lodging you’re talking about at this time. And before anyone has the tremendously generous idea of assisting me in the endeavor…thank you very much but I cannot take it, the Woodsman paddles his own canoe.
I would jump at the chance, if Commander Zinke secures the position of Secretary of the Interior (or even if he doesn’t) , to speak with him & offer my thoughts/ideas on several matters relating to the management of our nation’s natural resources! Some day I hope I can make that happen and of course that hinges on the assumption that Cdr Zinke would or could make the time for it. I am, after all, but a lowly ol forest technician….a proud, bottom of the pay scale forest technician….with a sore back & quite possibly a chip on my shoulder. haha!
Thanks, Joy. You have a good heart.
Woodsman
Joy,
And if nothing else, I would like to ask him about my high school buddy who was later employed in the same ‘occupation’ as Cdr Zinke. I know he must have known him very well. Unfortunately, my friend is passed on but I’ll never forget him or his warrior spirit!
Woodsman
Diane lomas says
JANUARY 5, 2017 AT 2:39 PM
Compare the prison firefighters working with Darryl Willis to granite mountain—the prison firefighters were instructed to deploy in a space smaller than needed and as things fell apart for the they took it upon themselves to leave the area without instructions from Willis.
And I say…YES, that has been a RUNNING JOKE (mostly by the WOODSMAN and MYSELF) on this thread, just like Darrell WILLIS has been in total for years now. Great job on picking up on that as a ROOKIE! ALL of THOSE WF under Willis would have been killed by Willis just like he is responsible in large part for the deaths of the crew. WHAT a DUMB ASS he is!
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 4, 2017 AT 12:44 PM
Gary,
Forgive me. I forgot how “sensitive” you were. It does seem that you can certainly dish out the feculence with the best of them, when you want to, however, a might thin skinned on the receiving end, being a former HS Supt and all. Just saying …. Maybe ‘bullshitter’ was a might too harsh for you being so sensitive and all. How about using it as a verb instead, referring to your actions rather than and attack on your character? How about bovinely feculent instead?
On the other hand, you are a very sharp individual, being a former HS Supt and all, and you make some very valid points MOST of the time.
And I say…NOW that YOU have correctly diagnosed my condition as not only being “sensitive” and “thin skinned” but frankly, I am little fragile as well (I can now be honest…I don’t have to pretend to be strong anymore)…I will be expecting YOU to be a just a little be sweeter to ME and treat me just a little bit NICER…OK?
And FYI…I have given up on any pretense of “investigating” this “incident” at all….a man had to know his “limitations” (Dirty Harry) and “respond” accordingly. I know when I have been “BEAT”. None of my tricks or training learned at the “Finest Law Enforcement Training Center in the World (according to THEM)” (both uniform police training AND investigators training plus many others courses which amounted to almost one year of my life at FLETC https://www.fletc.gov/ all total) was any match for the “Red Wall of Silence” presented by the “WF community.” YOU people make the storied “BLUE WALL” look like the “three strand bob wire fence” that protects of from Mexico in most places! “YOU people” could teach the “Freemasons”, the “Cosa Nostra”, the “Illuminati”, the “FSB” and the “CIA” a few things about keeping SECRETS!
And now…the whispering sands of the dunes are again softly calling out my name…and so I must once again bid you a fond farewell!
If you are referring to the small subdivision where the Tennis Court was being designated as a Safety Zone, this was NOT true according to Darrel Willis.
He told me it was based on the uncorroborated assertion of only ONE AZ Prison inmate.
I believe Willis.
Did the prison firefighters leave without permission?
Please explain what happened in that area with willis.
Diane-
we had one of the Prison Crew firefighters at Sonny’s cabin and they did not leave without permission…they followed their boss’s guidance..
RTS,
Are you referring to the fact that Willis may not have designated a tennis court for a deployment site for those prison inmates under his supervision?
Diane,
That is MOSTLY correct. According to Willis himself, he did not designate a tennis court for a SAFETY ZONE for those prison inmates under his supervision.
He said that allegation, which led to an ADOSH citation, was solely on the word of a single AZ DOC inmate without it ever being verified and/or corroborated.
I was originally one of the ones that believed the original allegation, however, once I talked with Willis, he told me otherwise and I believe him.
Joy’s post a few days ago on the same subject verifies this as well.
Diane-
on 11-12-14 11:03 Andrew Williams
( https://www.facebook.com/andrewwilliams43 ) (https://sd.linkedin.com/in/andrew-williams-6a55a9101/de )
emailed me from a craigslist ad I posted on I needed help with defensible space because Sonny was not going to do it (he is a logger not a landscaper)…he emailed “is the job still available? how thick? I am a seasonal wildland firefighter with experience on defensible space and I was on the YHF.”
By 11:22 I sold some ammo to a local to cover the cost and I emailed Andrew back with details and by 11:51 he replied he had a chainsaw and 2 load trucks and burn the rest for $300 for 4 people and gave me his contact cell number. At the time I had to since the cabin was on “rent” vs own had to get the owner’s ok and have them all sign a liability sheet and so I even have all and any firefighters who worked on that .28/.33 acres so they cannot deny ever doing it as time goes by..they came to the property pure and shared their videos and photos and accounts…even by 11-12-14 I had Lewis crew at YHF on June 29th 2013 photos and accounts and their last day of YHF at the shrine and pic of the lewis crew all at the deployment site. So then I sent him a county employees photos of the Lewis Crew from that weekend and he confirmed 11/13/14 1:45pm that he is in that photo which was stationed at the Yarnell fire dept. and he explained the one standing was Fred Andrews and he was sitting down in the back. By 11-20-14 8am the crew of his came to Sonny’s and did the exceptional high quality work of defensible space. He did that working 12 hour shifts and it was amazing what he cracked out in work but also “pure” account that I posted long ago on here. I saw the firefighters who got in and out of the yellow and white helicopter and alot of photos- some given to me with raw mega data and some I took with my camera.
Now to answer you…in the start I was always a Darrell Willis cheerleader just by instincts and then the court case happened and he allowed out of support to speak hearsay and allow it to stick speaking hearsay as the testimony. I never did anything but keep him in the loop as the same to all that wanted it but we have talked since then and he felt he had to show support to her as he did and nothing more into it. So when he was capable to do that I did follow through and do foias on him and others surrounding him and to this date I never got the foias…that is not a red flag but in it I did get foias back on RTS areas and it never settled right the perceptions of others on RTS so then Willis got shelved as I have thoroughly tried to reverse the damage that has been done to this man RTS from people not even in the industry nor even in this state or this side of the coast trying to make him out to be something someone else MUST HAVE gotten in this one’s ears because it red flagged me and it did not add up….so alot of areas got shelved just to ensure 3 men in the industry who dedicated much of their life and skills and knowledge to the fire industry could be discounted in a blink of an eye like I have seen and THAT IS WRONG, Diane. I will send you the lewis crew pics…ok so you can see the man to link above is same man in pic and same man I wrote about long ago on here.
Diane-
by the way when I got the RTS data—I never asked for it— it was just in the requested any and all emails to the entity and he happen to just be in it…but imagine this Diane…I know an email exists and yet that was not in foia so imagine this Diane you do not get all the emails just what they want to feed out
My interpretation of joy’s post is that the prison firefighters did not leave without permission not that the tennis court was designated as a possible deployment area.
I even did you better Diane…you can go direct to Andrew and ask him your questions.
I did not say this Lewis Prison crew fella—-I gave you in purity the journey of how a YHF firefighter ended up in my path and tell me God does not have the plan…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-190910
Diane, this is where I originally posted and you were not writing on IM.
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this joy-provided so much background information.
RTS,
Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those under his command at the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone? You know, I’m making a connection here with the mindset and training with the wildland program at the Prescott FD with regards to shelters and ‘deployment zones.’ I know me and you are on the same page when it comes to the shelters, pre-planned ‘deployment zones’ (self-fulfilling prophecy?,) GM’s totally inadequate situation/area they attempted to deploy shelters, etc. Shed some light here.
Thanks!
Wood
Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2017 at 12:52 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> RTS,
>>
>> Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court
>> as a safety zone for those under his command at
>> the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a
>> ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone?
I don’t know what Willis actually ‘said’ to RTS, but when asked about the ‘Tennis Court’ by InvestigativeMEDIA reporter John Dougherty ( back in December of 2013 )… Willis responded ‘in writing’ ( via email ) that YES… he DID consider the ‘Tennis Court’ to at least have been a viable ‘Deployment Zone’ for all 31 ( THIRTY ONE ) firefighters working out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
See the following ( longer ) post about that… including links to Willis’ actual ’email’ responses…
** WILLIS SAID ( IN WRITING ) THAT THE TENNIS COURT
** WAS A ‘DEPLOYMENT ZONE’.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-469796
And just 23 days after those 31 firefighters working under Willis’ command at the Double-Bar-A Ranch *almost* had to test Willis’ ‘theory’ about the tennis court having been a viable ‘deployment zone’… Willis himself admitted he ( personally ) had no frickin’ idea even what the upper temperature limit(s) were for a standard Wildland Fire Shelter.
From the transcript of Willis’ July 23, 2013 press conference held out at the actual deployment site…
———————————————————–
Reporter: Chief Willis… how hot would it had to have been for those shelters to breakdown? At what temperature does that start to happen?
Darrel Willis: I don’t know the facts on that.
———————————————————–
Woodsman,
That is what i recall, that Willis told me he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those under his command at the YH fire. He did NOT claim it was a ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone as far as I recall.
I would have considered it a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA), but only based on whatever current and expected fire behavior would have impacted it. If it was insufficient, then escape. Hindsight bias? No, experience.
Yes, I know you are making a connection with the PFD wildland program mindset and training with regards to shelters and ‘deployment zones.’ I base it solely on McDonough’s actions and comments when he hit his trigger point while he was at his grader site lookout point, and decided that deploying his shelter was his only option rather than heading for some good black within about 500-600 yards above the grader site.
Yes, we are definitely on the same page when it comes to deploying ones fire shelter instead of the preferred escape option or to a true Safety Zone. Pre-planned ‘deployment zones’ are designs for disaster and should never be designated as such. I loathe them.
I believe that the GMHS’ totally inadequate situation/area they attempted to survive by fecklessly attempting to construct an area to deploy their fire shelters was based on their (and other Southwestern HS Crews) experience witnessing the shelter deployment on the Holloway Fire (NV/OR 2012), also referred to by them as the “Nevada Fire,” when a fill-in Zuni HS Crewmember deployed her fire shelter in very similar chaparral fuels. She survived with only minor 2nd degree burns. Those present at the deployment site commented that she should have died under those conditions.
If you look at the photos in the Holloway Fire Investigation Report, I think you’ll see what I mean.
So the attitude just MAYBE was, it worked then and there, and we are in deep shit right now, so let’s make a deployment site and just deploy our fire shelters here. WTF!
Doughnut must have been affected by the “red wall of silence”.
I find it very unusual and strange that for $55 anyone can buy a wildland firefighter USA badge…
I thought badges were earned or you had those who felt they did not need no stinking badge
https://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQ
How well is USA Wildland Firefighters special report facebook used as reliable go to source to the fire industry current and retired. How many go there from IM? About the same/comparable as NIFC/blm facebook? I do not do facebook…just curious if any data is worth joining up to peak there…
someone sent me since I cannot see that page:
NIFC facebook
Joseph Agozino
January 3, 2017
I worked in Fire Management and Prescribed burning…along with wildland firefighting for 10 years…My oldest son works for CAFIRE as a Engineer/Medic for 24 years…we follow the Wildland Fire Agencies reports daily…and…find them well reported and worth our efforts…continue your good works…and…we will follow…Joe
(((MY QUESTION IS WHY DID JOE GIVE THE PAGE ONE STAR OUT OF 5 BUT LEAVE A NICE COMMENT LIKE THAT…I FELT LIKE I WAS READING A HOTSHOT EVALUATION WHERE THEY SAY NICE THINGS BUT CHECK OFF THE POOR REMARKS AREA…???? huh????))))
thank you to my family who will redirect TN folks to this IM page
Any person affected by the Chimney Tops 2 Fire who peaks on IM and who is getting strangers reaching out to them-
feel free to reach me 480.280.5813 (voice message only; no texts can be opened) to match up the strangers to who and what happen to me after the YHF…just leave a full name/best contact details type message…I check it a few times a week- not a phone gal.
so you can learn who’s who on your fire aftermath journey because there is areas from strangers that I hope you never face like I had to…let me help you avoid that pain…and costs…
there is people out there who say they are there to help you get closure but you learn through others that could be the farthest from the truth…
you will see these strangers bad mouth people who have been in the fire industry for decades and never have any public resource or source how they came to that perceptions…yet feel okay to even state it public yet you dare not agree with that person or ask direct questions and etc…I am very sorry one good man is having to file suit to reach his truth as a high up fire guy…and I hope justice is served…
I can warn you against those folks.
I want you to know their B-E-^A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E ways…and question it.
What made me think on this was recently for a local I went to her employment to meet with her district manager to help her get her much needed vacations going and in the interview I felt I was more running the interview and it I learned who would be the right choice to actually take the job on…even was offered 2 more jobs while in this meeting with district manager Mike G. and in it I thought does anyone realize how I could appear a weak link on work ethics being how I non-traditionally live my life…yet it made me seriously reflect on the persons that came to us since the fire and why and where are they now…
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37171390
what is your take on this article shadows and light people…
https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2017/01/05/entrapments-are/
Thanks Joy.
Please bear in mind the operative words in this are “UNEXPECTEDLY CAUGHT.”
It’s a common practice to disengage and retreat to a safe area, later to reengage when it’s safe, sometimes several times in an operational period.
RTS is referring to https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2017/01/05/entrapments-are/
Entrapment: A situation where personnel are unexpectedly caught in a fire behavior-related, life-threatening position where planned escape routes or safety zones are absent, inadequate, or compromised. An entrapment may or may not include deployment of a fire shelter for its intended purpose. These situations may or may not result in injury. They include “near misses.”
I liked this part:
“(Yes, I had a stern talk with a few folks about what “copy” means.)”
Sonny-
https://youtu.be/tyN0QqgBdRY
early on you talked UFO stuff…maybe what you were saying needs to be talked more about…Sonny- check this video out
here is source Sonny I saw video:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/17/ufos-videotaped-canadian-wildfire_n_5685252.html
strange how similar the pattern movements are to some I posted on my hiking page Sonny:
http://www.zazzle.com/ufo_postcard-239932383789958849
Vernon, Arizona
let me go see if I can find any other on my hiking page than go watch ufc…
the last one was posted on my hiking page Product ID: 239932383789958849
Created on: 6/3/2012, 8:59 PM
http://www.zazzle.com/odd_vernon_arizona_sky_views_postcard-239942630712668655
Product ID: 239942630712668655
Created on: 6/3/2012, 8:57 PM
and this one:
http://www.zazzle.com/ufo_postcard-239882906657638547
Product ID: 239882906657638547
Created on: 6/3/2012, 9:01 PM
let me find the Dolan Srings ones
Product ID: 239844567963904495
Created on: 12/19/2011, 5:55 PM
http://www.zazzle.com/dolan_springs_arizona_ufo_postcard-239844567963904495
sorry Sonny but the hiking page is changed and they took off all the photos…hmm…weird…just gone…
Joy,
I was referring to your originally posted link.
Look again. It’s in the block just under the title, Entrapment, just under the author’s name.
**
** Q: WHEN IS AN APPEAL COURT JUDGE NO LONGER AN APPEAL COURT JUDGE?
**
** A: WHEN HE’S ALREADY BEEN ‘SWORN IN’ AS A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.
Arizona Appeal Court Judge Andrew Gould’s ‘written opinion’ in the Marcia McKee ‘wrongful death’ appeal was first ‘filed’ on December 30, 2016.
But Judge Gould had ALREADY been ‘sworn in’ on December 19, 2016 as one of Arizona’s TWO new ( Republican ) Supreme Court Justices, after being ‘selected’ for the ‘job’ ( and not subject to any confirmation ) by Republican Governor Doug Ducey.
That means Gould was ALREADY an Arizona Supreme Court Justice for 11 days before finally ‘publishing’ his ‘written opinion’ on the Marcia McKee appeal case.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: 2 Arizona Supreme Court justices sworn in for expanded court
Published: 3:57 p.m. MT Dec. 19, 2016 ( Reprinted from an Associated Press article )
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/12/19/2-arizona-supreme-court-justices-sworn-expanded-court/95630986/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=
—————————————————————————
PHOENIX — Two new Arizona Supreme court justices were sworn in Monday for high court posts that became available after Gov. Doug Ducey expanded the court from five justices to seven, with the governor hailing them as uniquely qualified for the posts.
The governor appointed fellow Republicans Andrew Gould and John Lopez IV last month to the new seats after signing the law in May that added the posts.
Gould and Lopez were sworn in at a ceremony at the Capitol’s old Senate chambers, with Ducey saying they “are exactly the kinds of justices I want to see on our state’s highest court.”
Gould, 53, has been on the Arizona Court of Appeals since 2012 and previously spent more than a decade as a judge with Yuma County Superior Court. He was a prosecutor in Yuma and Maricopa counties and in Indiana from 1994 to 2001.
Lopez, 48, has been Arizona’s solicitor general since January 2015 and was previously a federal prosecutor and in private practice.
Ducey said he chose the new judges after determining their judicial philosophy acceptable. He said he wanted judges who follow the law, apply the Constitution as written and understand that a judge’s role is to interpret laws, not make them.
He also pushed back on questions about whether he expanded the court to pack it with Republicans, something Democrats said during the legislative debate.
“We have not packed the court, we have right-sized the court,” he said.
The law ( that added the TWO new Supreme Court Justices ) was pushed through the Republican-controlled Legislature with no Democratic support and over the opposition of the current Arizona Supreme Court Chief Justice Scott Bales, who said there was NO NEED for extra justices and that the $1 million in costs for them could have been used for more pressing court funding needs.
—————————————————————————
when my father worked for Sheriff Arpaio long ago—I knew how corrupt some areas were— but they never saw it as corruption– they saw it as bonuses or raises or benefits— something to make it feel right—
I feel it is wrong that this judge is able to have any interest in the case when he was promoted—
in my opinion–
congrats judge but step aside…
conflict of interest-
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 3, 2017 at 2:55 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> So…my question is, why can someone be sent to prison and have to pay civil damages
>> for either manslaughter or negligent homicide even without “knowingly and purposely
>> with the direct object of injuring” a person but yet the State of Arizona gets off because
>> no evidence was provided that the acts they committed “were done knowingly
>> and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters?”
>>
>> Did I explain my question adequately?
Yes… and I’m sure a LOT of other people are wondering the same damn thing… but in this case we are talking about someone who has lost their best friend and only son is isn’t even being allowed to have a ( win or lose ) ‘day in court’.
So the QUESTION ( in this case ) really is…
Why would Marcia McKee have to supposedely PROVE that the people who her son was working for when he died ( due to their provable negligence ) actually WANTED him dead… and were TRYING to kill him… in order to just be allowed to proceed with a normal ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit that normally does NOT have any such pre-trial requirement?
It all comes down to Arizona’s workers’ compensation laws ( as currently written ), and the associated infamous ‘exclusive remedy’ bullshit… and what it actually SAYS in the Arizona statutes about it.
If you read the whole ‘Andrew Gould written opinion’ at…
http://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/0/OpinionFiles/Div1/2016/1%20CA-CV%2015-0800.pdf
…you see statements that actually ‘attempt’ to explain this.
I’m going to show ‘Step by Step’ how Judge Gould came to ‘believe’ that Marcia McKee is ‘required’ to show MALICIOUS / WILFUL INTENT even BEFORE she is allowed to have a ‘day in court’ and actually ‘call witnesses’…
** Step 1…
———————————————————————————
II. Wrongful Death
Appellant ( Marcia McKee ) CONCEDES that if McKee was an employee of the State at the time of his death, her ability to sue for wrongful death is limited by Arizona’s workers’ compensation exclusive remedy provision.
———————————————————————————
What that means is that, for better or worse, Marcia McKee’s attorneys AGREED ( at some point when all the ‘appeal’ briefs were flying back and forth ) that IAOI ( If And Only If ) the appeal court decided that Grant McKee really WAS a valid ‘contract employee’ for Arizona Forestry on the day he died… then Marcia’s ability to even file a ‘wrongful death’ claim had to be ‘in sync’ with certain ‘provisions’ that are actually codified in Arizona’s ‘worker’s compensation’ laws.
I think Marcia’s attorneys would have better served her if they did NOT ‘stipulate’ that and/or ‘agree’ to those ‘constraints’ printed in Arizona’s workers’ compensation statutes… but that’s for another post.
The fact is that they DID ( agree to these ‘constraints’ ).
** Step 2…
Gould’s ‘written opinion’ then takes ‘Step 2’ and says that after considering all the arguments about whether Grant McKee was ( or was not ) a valid ‘contractor’ for Arizona Forestry at the time of his death ( this is what all the ‘Inter-Government Agency (IGA) stuff was really about )… the court officially concluded that YES… he WAS.
They concluded that the IGA contract for supplying fire-fighting services between Prescott and Arizona Forestry WAS ‘valid’… and ‘in effect’… so that means Grant McKee really WAS ( technically ) a ‘contract employee’ for Arizona Forestry when he was killed, and WAS ‘covered’ under the State of Arizona’s “worker’s compensation” program ( and statutes ).
So that means the ‘Judges’ were now free to move to ‘Step 3′ and see exactly what the State-level “workers’ compensation” statutes have in them ( because Marcia’s attorneys agreed they COULD do that if they found Grant to have been a valid AZF contractor ).
** Step 3…
Here is exactly what Arizona’s own “workers’ compensation” laws say… and here comes the JUSTIFICATION for the attorneys for Arizona Forestry arguing that Marcia McKee MUST PROVE that AZF employees WANTED her son dead before she should be allowed to proceed with a ‘wrongful death’ civil lawsuit…
http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2005/title23/01022.html
————————————————————————
2005 Arizona Revised Statutes – Revised Statutes 23-1022
Compensation as exclusive remedy for employees;
definition; exceptions; public agency employees
A. The right to recover compensation pursuant to this chapter for injuries sustained by an employee or for the DEATH of an employee is the exclusive remedy against the employer or any co-employee acting in the scope of his employment, and against the employer’s workers’ compensation insurance carrier or administrative service representative, except as provided by section 23-906, and except that if the injury is caused by the employer’s wilful misconduct, or in the case of a co-employee by the co-employee’s wilful misconduct, and the act causing the injury is the personal act of the employer, or in the case of a co-employee the personal act of the co-employee, or if the employer is a partnership, on the part of a partner, or if a corporation, on the part of an elective officer of the corporation, and the act indicates a wilful disregard of the life, limb or bodily safety of employees, the injured employee may either claim compensation or maintain an action at law for damages against the person or entity alleged to have engaged in the wilful misconduct.
B. “Wilful misconduct” as used in this section means an act done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring another.
———————————————————————————-
Okay… a lot of ‘goobly gook’… but here is basically what the above says…
If you are an employee in Arizonastan, and you have AGREED ( when you were hired ) to become part of Arizonastan’s “workers’ compensation” plan… and you have also AGREED to the “exclusive remedy” provisions of that Arizonastan “workers’ compensation” plan… then if you get INJURED or KILLED ‘on the job’… you automatically ‘give up’ your right to ‘maintain an action at law to recover damages’.
You must just accept whatever standard ‘compensation’ you are entitled to following your INJURY or DEATH ( in which case your dependents get the ‘compensation’ ), and that is the END OF THE STORY ( as in… the ‘exclusive remedy’ ).
But notice the ‘lawyer speak’ codified in that paragraph above.
That paragraph is, in fact, ALSO attempting to list the EXCEPTIONS to this… and the times when you ( or your survivor ) COULD also legally file a ‘lawsuit’ to recover damages over and above the standard amounts that “workers’ compensation” automatically provides.
Just to be clear… ( and if you will stick with me for a moment )… let me print the actual Arizona LAW again… but this time in ‘clearer’ sections.
This is actually the FIRST part of the Arizona LAW in question…
—————————————————————————————-
2005 Arizona Revised Statutes – Revised Statutes §23-1022
Compensation as exclusive remedy for employees;
definition; exceptions; public agency employees
A. The right to recover compensation pursuant to this chapter for injuries sustained by an employee or for the DEATH of an employee is the exclusive remedy against the employer or any co-employee acting in the scope of his employment, and against the employer’s workers’ compensation insurance carrier or administrative service representative,
—————————————————————————————–
Full stop.
That is the END of what is called the ‘declarative’ part of the LAW itself, and it’s very clear.
It says that whatever ‘compensation’ is provided to YOU ( in the result of an injury ) or to your SURVIVOR ( in the event of your DEATH ) ‘on the job’ is the ‘exclusive remedy’ for that situation, and ( if you have agreed to be ‘covered’ by workers’ compensation at all ) then you must ACCEPT THAT and you CANNOT then file any additional COURT cases related to that incident.
And ( in Step 1 above )… Judge Gould points out that Marcia McKee’s attorneys had already AGREED that this is/was the case.
But NOW… notice the REST of that ‘paragraph’.
It NOW goes on to list the EXCEPTIONS to this, and the ONLY times that you would be LEGALLY ‘able’ to file an additional court case against the employer or its employees ( like a ‘wrongful death’ suit ).
I’m going to now just SUMMARIZE the rest of that paragraph, and the EXCEPTIONS it is listing that ( if applicable ) would ALLOW you to file any ‘additional’ court case(s)…
———————————————————————————————
except as provided by section 23-906
Section 23-906 of Arizona Law specifically concerns “workers’ compensation” and has the following ‘title’…
23-906. Liability under chapter or under common law of employer securing
compensation; carriers; service representatives; right of employee to make
election; procedure for making election.
Section 23-906 of Arizona Law ALSO lists its own ‘exceptions’ that would apply here… one of which is the fact that if certain ‘notices’ were NOT clearly posted in the employee’s workplace, and the employee was NOT made aware that he/she could ‘opt out’ of the ‘exclusive remedy’ clause… then no ‘exclusive remedy’ clause is actually in effect.
except that if the injury is caused by the employer’s WILFUL MISCONDUCT… AND the act indicates a WILFUL DISREGARD of the life, limb or bodily safety of employees
So there it is.
The WILFUL MISCONDUCT ‘exception’ in this ‘workers compensation’ shit.
This means that if ( and ONLY if ) there was some ‘wilful misconduct’ involved then there can be an allowed ‘exception’ to the ‘exclusive remedy’ provision.
SIDENOTE: Notice that this ‘exception’ to the ‘exclusive remedy’ thing ( which is where “wilful misconduct” is mentioned ) does NOT actually mention “in the case of the DEATH of the employee.” It ONLY says “except that if the INJURY”. This is VERY important distinction ( legally speaking ) and another place where I think Judge Andrew Gould had his head up his ass. More about this later.
———————————————————————————————
The last sentence in the Arizona LAW governing ‘exclusive remedy’ ( after the listing of the exceptions ) just says this…
———————————————————————————————
…the injured employee may…
EITHER claim compensation
OR maintain an action at law for damages against the
person or entity alleged to have engaged in the wilful misconduct.
———————————————————————————————
That just means that if any of the ‘exceptions’ listed are applicable ( like anything in section 23-906 or if there is any PROOF of ‘wilful misconduct’ )… then the employee IS no longer constrained by this ‘exclusive remedy’ provision and IS allowed to “maintain an ADDITIONAL action at law” to recover “damages” over and above what worker’s compensation provides.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ because of length limit… )
( Continued from above )…
But now here is the ‘KICKER’ ( and the absolute basis of both the arguments presented by Arizona Forestry lawyers AND the basis of Judge Gould’s ‘written opinion’ )…
The very next ‘paragraph’ in this Arizona workers’ compensation ‘exclusive remedy’ LAW then goes “out of its way to DEFINE “wilful misconduct”, which was used in the paragraph above it…
—————————————————————————————–
B. “Wilful misconduct” as used in this section means an act done KNOWINGLY and PURPOSELY with the DIRECT OBJECT of injuring another.
—————————————————————————————–
So here is the conundrum ( in ‘lightning round’ fashion )…
The existing Arizonastan law regarding “workers’ compensation” says that if you, as an employee, ‘elected’ to ‘participate’ in that program at all… then the only way you ( or one of your legal representatives ) can file a court case against the ’employer’, if you are injured and/or KILLED in THEIR “workplace, is if you can PROVE ( before there is even any kind of trial ) that your employer actually WANTED YOU DEAD…
…but there is really no way you could PROVE that UNLESS you are allowed to proceed with a valid ‘court case’ and at least enter a ‘discovery’ phase where you can issue subpoenas and take ‘under oath’ depositions from all those involved in the incident.
Can you say… CATCH-22! ( BIG time! )
And that CATCH-22 is WHY this case is headed for ( probably ) BOTH the Arizona Supreme Court AND the United States Supreme Court.
Because that obvious ‘CATCH-22’ in Arizonastan’s law is in direct contradiction of other things related to EVERY U.S. citizen’s right to have their “day in court” as codified in BOTH the Arizona Constitution AND the United States Constitution ( The Seventh Ammendment, in particular ).
Yeah…I know but thank you anyway. The bottom line is the state makes the rules and the rules say they win.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-469731
I was really just trying to offer a little support to Mrs. McKee on what has to be the second worst day in her life.
Here is the actual Arizona ‘Wrongful Death’ statue ( law ) A.R.S 12-611 that is totally ‘separate’ from any bullshit that the “workers’ compensation” exclusive-remedy laws is trying to lay on TOP of the ‘base law’…
http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2005/title12/00611.html
———————————————————————
2005 Arizona Revised Statutes – Revised Statutes 12-611 Liability
When DEATH of a person is caused by wrongful act, neglect or default, and the act, neglect or default is such as would, if death had not ensued, have entitled the party injured to maintain an action to recover damages in respect thereof, then, and in EVERY such case, the person who or the corporation which would have been liable if death had not ensued shall be liable to an action for damages, notwithstanding the death of the person injured, and although the death was caused under such circumstances as amount in law to murder in the first or second degree or manslaughter.
———————————————————————
So right there is the ‘law’ that covers the ‘baby in the back seat’ scenario and other such similar tragedies where DEATH occurs because of ‘negligence’, ‘incompetence’, or BOTH.
There is NOTHING in that Arizona LAW which says it needs to be proved someone WANTED to kill someone before a ‘wrongful death’ action can/should be allowed to be FILED and allowed proceed to TRIAL ( which is the only way to try and find out what REALLY happened ).
It is this OTHER “workers’ compensation exclusive remedy” bullshit, and its OWN ‘insertion’ of its OWN ‘definitions’ for ‘Wrongful Death’ that Judge Andrew Gould ( and others ) believe OVERRIDES the ‘base’ Arizona law and puts these OTHER ‘Wilful misconduct’ requirements onto the situation.
And THAT is what ‘Supreme Courts’ are for… to RESOLVE ‘discrepancies’ in laws where one statute says one thing… and another statute then says something completely different.
Marcia McKee is being denied even the chance to just have her “day in court”… and be able to have witnesses testify “under oath” about what really happened in Yarnell ( the WHOLE weekend ) and about the circumstances that led to the death of her best friend and only son.
SIDENOTE: The reference to ‘manslaughter’ itself in the ACTUAL base-level Arizona ‘Wrongful Death’ statute shown above DOES automatically INCLUDE all the ‘negligence’ related charges like “negligent homicide’ ( with or without the aggravating “depraved indifference” charges ) which ( as you pointed out ) NEVER require there to have been any ‘Wilful intent’ at all.
Followup…
That Arizona ‘Wrongful Death’ ACT legislation ( A.R.S 12-611 ) specifically says….
“…in EVERY such case…”
It does NOT say…
“…in EVERY such case… except when it’s a dead employee who might have been covered by workers’ compensation…”
So that’s the ‘signpost up ahead’ on the ‘next stop’ at the Arizona Supreme Court.
Here is a topic that has really perplexed me for some time now and why I think Marcia SHOULD have prevailed in her lawsuit.
I have said many time on this thread that IF I were investigating the Yarnell Hill Fire and IF Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed would have survived their reckless decision, I would have recommended in the strongest possible terms that they should be prosecuted for manslaughter http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01103.htm1. because they “Recklessly causing the death of another person;”
I would also have recommended that that they be charged with negligent homicide per A.R.S. §13-1102 as a fall back position. The crime of negligent homicide occurs when an individual performs an act that is negligent and results in the death of another person.
On a side note, investigators never decide what to charge someone with, that is always up to the prosecuting attorney although they can and do make recommendations prosecuting attorneys normally listen to.
Specifically, the act that is committed that results in another person’s death is referred to as “criminal negligence.” It means that an individual fails to realize that there is a considerable risk to the act being committed that can result in grave circumstances. This risk is substantial and unjustifiable and must be of such a degree that the person’s failure to perceive it as being such means they have greatly deviated from the standard of care that another, more reasonable person would have foreseen in such a situation.
The term does not insinuate that the defendant had an intention of killing someone. However, it does mean that the individual was responsible for the death of the other person as a result of their risky behavior, behavior that someone of reasonable mind would not have done because they would have realized there was a risk to another person.
Many times, the charge is put forth on a parent as a result of their children dying in an accident or other circumstances. The prosecuting attorney will attempt to prove that the parent or parents are at fault for not being more attentive and for failing to protect their child.
The charge is very similar to manslaughter but differs because manslaughter occurs when there is a recklessness that results in deviating from “normal conduct”. It is not considered negligence that occurs when deviating from a “standard of care”. As a result, a charge of negligent homicide has a punishment that is not as severe as manslaughter. A person who is charged with this serious crime are usually operating a motor vehicle when the crime occurs.
So…both of these charges could result in a CIVIL case being filed against the guilty party and they would not only serve prison time but would have civil penalties to pay or at least owe. The newspaper article below is quoted as saying;
“In a unanimous opinion, the judges said Marcia McKee presented no evidence that the actions of the state that 2013 day amounted to “willful misconduct” by anyone involved.
Appellate Judge Andrew Gould acknowledged that McKee’s allegations show “a series of negligent and grossly negligent acts” that, if proven, culminated in the death of her son, Grant, and 18 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew. But he said McKee provided no evidence that these acts “were done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters.”
So…my question is, why can someone be sent to prison and have to pay civil damages for either manslaughter or negligent homicide even without “knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring” a person but yet the State of Arizona gets off because no evidence was provided that the acts they committed “were done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters?”
Since “knowingly and purposely” is NOT an element necessary to prove someone….”4) Recklessly causing the death of another person.” why is “knowingly and purposely” an element that must be proved for Marcia’s wrongful death suit?
Did I explain my question adequately because trying to articulate it gave me a headache? Or is the answer simply because “life isn’t fair” and the state of Arizona is in complete and total control of the situation and always have been and always will be?
In other words, the state required Marcia to prove a standard in order to hold the state responsible for the very same thing the state is not required to prove, in order hold an individual responsible for….the negligent death of another. Right?
OK…just one more, I hope.
“The State of Arizona held Mrs. Mckee to a standard they do not hold themselves to.”
Do as we say…not as we do.
Is this new CAPTCHA thing giving anyone else a royal pain in the ass, or is it just me? At least I am getting a good workout with my 3rd grade math.
It’s not just you. It goes into effect immediately, there is no delay. And it doesn’t even get it the first time. It IS annoying, and what purpose does it serve?
Those are exactly the problems I am having, it is one fickle bitch (non-gender specific) as far as it’s purpose, apparently JD found out a machine has been posting here and he is trying to fool HAL 9000.
Oh and one more thing about cloggin’ in my comment below. That is NOT something we did with the local ladies in the backs of their pickup trucks in the dark parking lot at Bill Stanley’s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs2j8f7H2WY
Although both HAL 9000 and Sonny could probably show us how to clog since it was brought to the Appalachia Mountains by Irish settlers way back when…right?
FYI…I am making CAPTCHA happy by answering about 3 questions correctly and then posting a fourth one and only then hit refresh and sometimes it goes.
WHOOPS
FYI…I am making CAPTCHA happy by answering about 3 questions correctly and then posting a fourth one and only then hit POST COMMENT and sometimes it goes.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
January 3, 2017 at 5:21 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Although both HAL 9000 and Sonny could
>> probably show us how to clog since it was
>> brought to the Appalachia Mountains by
>> Irish settlers way back when…right?
Yep.
Watch their ‘feet’ in the video.
Some of the ‘steps’ are identical to the ‘1-2-3’ count cadence for ‘Irish JIGS’.
But even the people still ‘carrying on the traditions’ don’t really know ( or care ) that it’s ‘Irish based’.
I once was at a fiddle gathering in the Appalachians and sat down with some ‘old fellers’ playing fiddle.
I asked them… “Y’all know any Irish tunes?”
They all said “Nope”.
I then aksed… “Well, do y’all know ‘Red Haired Boy’, ‘Soldier’s Joy’; and ‘Whiskey Before Breakfast’?”
Their eyes lit up and they all said…
“Oh SHUURE… we know THEM tunes!”
( People really are carrying on Irish traditions without even knowing it ).
I knew you and Sonny (I bet) would know all about cloggin’! I just wish I could dance cause I would like to learn how to clog.
OK, Big G, I’m going to try to help with your thought process here (& probably end up confusing you.) I’m also going to save a copy of this bastage before I try to submit it because I’ll probably screw it up & lose it forever. This is going to go places you may not have gone before so hang with me.
When you viewed the video of the court proceeding, how many officers of the court do you believe were present?
The venue was selected by whom? What was being asked? By whom? Who were they asking?
I’m not going to answer all of these questions right off the bat & all of them don’t need answers anyway but I’ll give a little to assist (or possibly make it more confusing.)
The complainant’s agent asked the government for permission to make a claim against the government and the government said: “No.” Well, they didn’t use that exact word in their reply they said that she, (through her hired help), did not present sufficient evidence to prove the claim that the deaths of GM were caused with intent to do so. Are you astounded by their reply?
This will probably make your head spin but I hope it will help explain to you why no attorney would ever have you, free of charge or not, assist in any case related to this incident. That’s why your offer(s) were ignored. Their duty doesn’t include what we believe it should be. What I’m talking about will hopefully help explain the various attorney’s actions & words in the cases associated with the Yarnell Hill fire. Heck, even ol’ Abner is shoring up the narrative that “we’ll just never know exactly what happened to those brave hotshots that day.” What I’m talking about should help explain McGroder’s actions & words in cases associated with the Yarnell Hill fire as well. His client’s case was weak. Why? Me & you have a difference of opinion on the families taking the money and settling the case. It ended up being that paltry sum or nothing. Why? They were led down that path the whole way.
Is any of this clicking at all? The truth is often a very uncomfortable thing. It’s stranger than fiction some might say.
Wood
I agree that none of the families which includes Mrs. McKee ever had any case and I’m sure WTKTT can quote you the numerous times I have said that exact thing on this thread now since BEFORE the lawsuits were ever filed.
Another thing that I have said before was the attorneys for the families had a duty to inform their clients that they did not have a case and would never prevail.
I have said several times the BEST they ever could have hoped for was a negotiated nuisance settlement because any good attorney will recommend settling a case even if they are sure they will win because this kind of case will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation and court costs.
I also said they families would end up taking the insulting nuisance settlement because they were told it was that or NOTHING and apparently Mrs. McKee was the only one wiling to accept nothing rather than compromise what she believed to be right.
So…you are actually quoting some of the very same arguments that I have been making for three years now back to me. I was only trying to point out the duplicity and disingenuous of the state of Arizona in that they dismissed Mrs. McKee’s case because she could not meet the very same standard they themselves don’t have to meet when they put people in prison for negligent homicide or manslaughter in that “malice aforethought” is NOT element of those crimes that MUST be met.
In other words, they dismissed her case because she did not prove malice aforethought in order to prevail but people go to prison almost every day in this country for vehicular manslaughter or when parents leave their babies in hot cars because they forget about them when there is no malice aforethought either.
The question I was really trying to ask is…why are there two different standards…other than the state is in control and they make the rules and the rules say they win.
Which was just a really long winded rhetorical question anyway but I like things to make sense and be fair…for everyone. I think everyone should play be the same rules…call me old fashioned or idealistic or whatever.
I am however…still waiting for someone to explain to me why the City of Prescott, Chiefs Willis and Fraijo and everyone else in their food chain were NOT sued for failure to train the crew to live rather than to die.
I assume there is a rule that say’s they can’t be sued and the only recourse is what is allowed by state worker’s compensation but who knows…who knows?
In fact…I am so damn disgusted tonight I am going to state that ONE more time.
I have carefully reviewed the current wildlnad firefighter fire shelter training and it is the same I was given in 1977 when fire shelters were required nation wide after the Battlement Creek Fire and that training is deeply FLAWED.
“The current fire shelter training trains WF to die…not to live!”
And the fire shelter training needs to be completely revamped with a strong emphasis placed on “How Big is Big Enough” so WF aren’t laying down to die in a space about the size of the average family car garage when they need an area that is up to 16.5 acres!
And very few WF know that or have ever even thought about it.
I KNOW that to be a fact because I carried one of those DAMN things for 8 years as a hotshot and I NEVER thought about it. And I trained more than 100 hotshots during that period of time and I NEVER taught that factor to any of them.
How many did more were trained with the deeply training I passed on. At least three Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Bosses who came after me…were trained by me.
I’m definitely not trying to argue with you. I’m just stating that the casino never loses. Ms. McKee’s attorney knows what he’s doing & why.
Yep. You opened my eyes to the fire shelter even though I’ve always thought training to lay down in one with my face in the dirt & hope for the best was not the brightest idea I’d ever heard.
The answer is 5. Five officers of the court.
W
Well, 6 if you count the city of Prescott attorney…..
That’s a good way to put it, the house never loses. Except as I have said before, in those very rare cases where they want to to teach themselves a lesson so they won’t do THAT again (hopefully).
Oh…and one more thing. This case wan’t one of those times. And of course I am speaking about the federal government sometimes wanting to teach themselves a lesson, the state of Arizona may never have one of those cases because they think they never do anything wrong?
The house only loses when it wants to in order to bolster the illusion of legitimacy. You know, so all us common folk think it’s on the level & it’s functioning properly.
That’s interesting that you said they get one right occasionally to teach themselves a lesson. I never thought of it that way. I really think that it occurs to maintain the façade of truth, justice & the American way. Just enough to keep the people (revenue generating subjects) from taking to the streets with torches, pitchforks and coils of boiled rope to nourish the tree of liberty.
W
Generally I think you are right, but what I am thinking about is when EEOC wants to teach someone or some agency a lesson for discrimination, or main justice wants to teach someone or some agency something about violating the Constitution, or Congress wants to teach someone or some agency a lesson about targeting whistle-blowers, they approve themselves to be sued at the federal level.
Or theoretically…maybe even a state Attorney General;s Office, say in Arizonaistan…wants to teach Arizonaistan State Forestry not to pinch pennies and cut too many corners and kill WF in the process even though many of us have been through that process many times and lived to tell about it. I know of some young men that didn’t make it through their first experience fighting fire that way.
But like I said…maybe that never happens in Arizonaistan? Why I remember a time…oh never mind, my old friend just thinks I’m a bullshitter.
A Bullshitter? Just because some people say my stories get better each and very time I retell them. I don’t think that is fair, but we all know life isn’t fair or they wouldn’t make condoms in different sizes. And yes Woodsman…condoms come in other sizes other than small and extra small.
Gary,
Forgive me. I forgot how “sensitive” you were. It does seem that you can certainly dish out the feculence with the best of them, when you want to, however, a might thin skinned on the receiving end, being a former HS Supt and all. Just saying …. Maybe ‘bullshitter’ was a might too harsh for you being so sensitive and all. How about using it as a verb instead, referring to your actions rather than and attack on your character? How about bovinely feculent instead?
On the other hand, you are a very sharp individual, being a former HS Supt and all, and you make some very valid points MOST of the time.
Hmmmm….there is so much to dissect in that one I am just going to leave it alone and say…thank you.
What I meant to say, is you very well MIGHT know that condoms come in sizes other than S, XS and XXS,
But I don’t know everything you or anything else knows or don’t know…so my MO is just to throw everything against the wall to see what sticks while I search for a theme.
Sometimes it works…sometimes it doesn’t. But as I have said before…you have to play the odds.
Here is a link for the Channel 5 KPHO article and video, titled: “Questions about the deaths of 19 hotshots may never be answered, attorney says.”
Published last night at about 11:00 PM and updated this morning.
http://www.wlox.com/story/34169105/questions-about-the-deaths-of-19-hotshots-may-never-be-answered-attorney-says
IMHO, McKee’s attorney makes several dubious comments OR he was misquoted by the reporter:
“We don’t know why the Granite Mountain Hotshots WEREN’T PROVIDED WITH PROPER COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT, said attorney David Abney. “We don’t know why they WEREN’T EQUIPPED WITH PROPER FIRE SHELTERS THAT WERE RATED TO DEAL WITH A WILDFIRE. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
The GMHS was provided with and was utilizing “proper communications equipment” the day they died. It was the actual COMMUNICATIONS in the form of primarily utilizing their GMHS Crew Net frequency “discussing our options’ on whether to stay in the good black or leave. Moreover, the GMHS, under Marsh had a habit of being disingenuous and “deliberately vague” when it came to their position, their intentions, and such.
Secondly, the GMHS were “equipped with proper fire shelters that were rated to deal with a wildfire.” The GMHS was in fact “equipped with proper fire shelters that were rated to deal with a wildfire.” However, the intensity of the fire run that overtook them while attempting to construct a ‘deployment zone’ by hand with chainsaws, instead of running to the BSR, was of significant intensity and proportions. There is not now, nor ever will be, a fire shelter designed (that a WFF can actually carry on the firelines) that could withstand those intensities and/or sustained direct flame contact without fatal fire shelter delamination as occurred on 30 June 2013.
The ONLY man-made device that could have saved the GMHS that day would have been a literal shipping container constructed of actual ‘BLACK BOX’ material identical to that on aircraft containing their audio and data recordings.
THE STATE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING 19 BRAVE FIREFIGHTERS. Unless this case goes through, we will never find out exactly what the state did wrong that resulted in their deaths,” he said. “What we know so far is gross misconduct, extreme negligence. We don’t know the whole story. And unless we can get back in the trial court, no one ever will.”
“The State” is NOT “responsible for killing 19 brave firefighters.” The GMHS Supervisors are responsible for their deaths. The State may have had some influence but as WTKTT and others have correctly pointed out for years now:
“As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.”
I agree with everything you said…except you left the 800 pound gorilla in the room which I have repeatedly pointed at and yelled, “HEY…THERE’S AN 800 POUND GORILLA IN THE ROOM!”
And I am not going to repeat once again all of my reasons for unequivocally stating this to be true, but if you push me I will try to look them up the way WTKTT looks stuff up on this thread after he teaches me how to do it,
So…here it is ONCE again. THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS were NOT properly trained on how to use the adequate fire shelters they were issued or they NEVER would have deployed them in a situation that was NOT survivable with anything short of a big box like you have described. That is just one more reason I think the City of Prescott, the Prescott Fire Department is responsible for the deaths of the crew.
I also think the NWCG should also be sued because they are the ones who developed the deeply flawed training because, need I say it yet once again, they are putting forward training that trains wildalnd firefighters to die, not to run and possibly live IF the area they are thinking about deploying their fire shelters are clearly NOT survivable. Case in point, the crew needed up to 16.5 acres (thanks to the Woodsman’s forestry skills) and they deployed them in an area 20′ by 30”. The size of a garage for God’s sake….IT WASN’T A CLOSE CALL!
It is called FAILURE TO PROPERLY TRAIN…and as I have written many, many times on this thread, the first thing I would have gone for as an investigator is their TRAINING RECORDS. That is where the SMOKING GUN is hidden. That is where the smoking gun is almost always hidden…every internal affairs investigator knows that. GO TO THE SOP’S AND REGULATIONS, THAT IS HOW YOU HANG SOMEONE per rat squad training 101!
This is what I am talking about and the foundation for my argument. Neither Marsh nor Steed were adequately or properly trained and in turn they did not properly or adequately train the crew.
There is ample evidence of that failure…Mr. McDonough’s insistence that the rules are hillbilly is NOT something he made up. He learned that from Marsh.
https://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/1665005-Legal-Corner-Departmental-Liability-for-Failure-to-Train/
And the biggest smoking gun that neither Marsh nor Steed were properly or adequately trained?
All of the extremely stupid statements Darrell Willis made in public regarding what happened to the crew on the YHF. Neither Chief Willis, nor that idiot Chief Frajo knew shit from Shinola when it came to training or managing a hotshot crew.
Having a hard time getting the post in due to new security…but good last posts, Gary!
W
Well…we are after all…more alike than we are different. All of us old fire dogs have to hang together or we will hang separately. Willis and Fraijo are NOT old fire dogs.
This new system may cut down on the extraneous chit chat that I find so interesting. I have found answering 3 questions and entering a number the fourth time before I hit post comment…is working every time.
You may need a calculator with those huge buttons sitting next to you so you can do the math more quickly. Then you might start getting through on the first try………..only kidding! haha
Yes. The damn shelter training. It’s mind numbing to think of the call to attempt to deploy in that space under those conditions. It does have a component of training & shelter indoctrination associated with it. The inhabitants of the Great White Nort have it right – get rid of the damn things! That & hockey are the only claims to fame that I can come up with for the Canadians but they’re 2 real good ones.
Keep your stick on the ice.
Woodruff Key
Compare the prison firefighters working with Darryl Willis to granite mountain—the prison firefighters were instructed to deploy in a space smaller than needed and as things fell apart for the they took it upon themselves to leave the area without instructions from Willis.
Diane,
If you are referring to the small subdivision where the Tennis Court was being designated as a Safety Zone, this was NOT true according to Darrel Willis.
He told me it was based on the uncorroborated assertion of only ONE AZ Prison inmate.
I believe Willis.
What information exits regarding communication with GMHS discussing the options off staying in the black versus coming down from the mountain?
Here is the AZ Court of Appeals, Division One written OPINION for Marcia McKee v. State of Arizona filed December 30, 2016 and posted today.
MARCIA MCKEE, the surviving mother of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, both individually and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, deceased, Plaintiffs/Appellants,
v.
STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and the ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY DIVISION, a public entity,
Defendants/Appellees.
No. 1 CA-CV 15-0800
Appeal from the Superior Court in Maricopa County Nos. CV2014-009068, CV2014-009069 and V2014-009070 (Consolidated). The Honorable J. Richard Gama, Judge
AFFIRMED
OPINION
Presiding Judge Andrew W. Gould delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Judge Peter B. Swann and Judge Patricia A. Orozco joined.
G O U L D, Judge:
“¶1 Marcia McKee (“Appellant”) appeals from the superior court’s order dismissing her claims for wrongful death and intentional infliction of emotional distress. Appellant argues the court erred n concluding that her son was an employee of the State of Arizona and the Arizona State Forestry Division and, as a result, her claim was barred by the workers’ compensation statutes’ exclusive remedy provision. Appellant also contends she stated a claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress and she should be permitted to sue both the State and the State Forestry Division. For the following reasons, we affirm.”
>
>
>
CONCLUSION
“¶32 For the reasons discussed above, we affirm the superior court’s order dismissing Appellant’s complaint.”
http://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/0/OpinionFiles/Div1/2016/1%20CA-CV%2015-0800.pdf
Thank you. Still ‘reading’ everything.
Ineresting to see that there there was ‘no dissenting opinion’.
Judge Peter Swann and Judge Patricia Orozco just did a “what he said” and let this Andrew Gould guy ( the one just appointed to the Arizona Supreme Court by Arizona Republican Governor Doug Ducey ) write the whole ‘decision’.
Some of what Judge Gould is using as the ‘basis’ for his ‘decisions’ are still issues that NEED to be decided by the Arizona Supreme Court ( and perhaps the United States Supreme Court ).
Judge Gould is still ‘assuming’ that unless the ‘statutes’ say otherwise… the ‘default’ state for an Arizona Agency ( like Arizona Forestry ) is that it is ‘non-jural entity’ and cannot be sued.
That is where the ( forgive the pun ) “jury is still out”.
As for the whole ‘exclusive remedy’ thing ( with regards to workers’ compensation )… Judge Gould also seems to have missed the parts of Arizona Law that cover the ‘exceptions’ to this.
Example: According to Arizona Law… if the place where an employee worked did NOT have the ‘workers compensation’ full ‘contract’ on public and prominent display… and did NOT have readily available forms for employees to ‘exclude’ themselves from these ‘exclusive remedy’ provisions and the employee was NOT ‘advised of his/her rights’ to ‘opt out’ of the ‘exclusive remedy’ provisions… then that employee can be considered NOT ‘bound’ by this ‘exclusive remedy’ bullshit that Arizona Forestry is relying on.
And that’s just ONE of the ‘exceptions’ to this ‘exclusive remedy’ crap.
More later.
This ‘decision’, of course, automatically ‘telegraphs’ what is most likely going to happen when the other Division 1 Appeals Court ‘panel’ gets off its ass and finally issues THEIR appeal ‘decision’ in the 130+ consolidated Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits.
Judge Peter Swann sits on BOTH of the panels… and he is now ‘on record’ as believing that Arizona Forestry really is a ‘non-jural’ entity and cannot be sued at any time, by anyone, for any reason.
If he ends up just the sole ‘dissenter’ in the ‘decision’ reached by the other panel… and that panel decides that Arizona Forestry CAN be ‘sued’… then the shit is going to really hit the fan.
And these Judges don’t like that kind of ‘projectile’ doo-doo.
The bottom line, however, is that this issue of whether certain Arizona State ‘agencies’ can ( or cannot ) be sued is an issue that has been resurfacing in Arizona for DECADES.
The issue has never been properly decided by the ‘Arizona Supreme Court’ ( or even further upfield at the United States Supreme Court ).
These may be the cases that finally force that to happen.
Marcia McKee’s AZ Appeals Court case.
“Hotshot verdict: mom cannot sue the state in sons death.”
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/dec/30/hotshot-verdict-mom-cant-sue-state-sons-death/?
shewwwwwwww…….deep breath in and out….we knew that was going to play out…but Marcia have the faith…keep the faith and do not read the ignorant comments on that article’s comment wall if it happens…the shadow people are really focused to the process and the proper way to get these folks who have trailed us all and been one up but in it there is sealed raw data that will see the light some day…ok….this decision was anticipated but it should make you aware of the seriousness of what is going on…and how well the ones do not want the facts out…RTS, you know as well as I there is EVEN MORE than what Abney stated in article and purely I do not see it surfacing anytime “soon”…so Marcia just focus to 2017…that we now know your results…Many of us are trying to make sense of where things are heading in 2017. Are we trying to break new ground here, or is it a case of ‘more of the same’ or any missing elements finally going to surface? Are the changes we are all experiencing helping us to move in a more positive direction? or is it weighing us deeper down because others can sleep at night knowing what they know so deeply wrong too I think…in all this do not lose YOU in it Marcia…keep trekking forward head held high and get this is all part of a process of something bigger…keep being the beautiful leader that you are…keep expanding and do not surrender…”pauses” are good too…that was alot to swallow; that news….yet predictable too. You are a tiny woman like my mom probably 5 foot 1 appx lil over 48kg but you have alot of good powerful energy…the pause will bring to you very helpful new friends, travel, new ideas and possibly a change of place of work…and maybe yet another feel for change of where you want to call “home”…but I sure feel fantastic moments to come for you….and for Grant’s extended family and friends too…none of us here will ever give up…the chaos is present Marcia…we know it…the industry failed the fallen and their loved ones on YHF and many fires…yet there is chaos everywhere; political, economic, and cultural changes across the globe…it is the energy moment for it…so it is time to keep gathering the seeds and keep yourself whole and uplifted…Imagine every database, every file, every classified secret, and pharmaceutical or technical invention just “gone” …remember this time on Earth is so tiny to the Eternal one and keep the focus to there vs the ones who continue to wrong you…they seem to be fine to have the door to even more chaos and unrestrained greed . Too many fallen over the decades to think otherwise…stick to the spiritual plane…in the next nine years Marcia many I know will be exposing much that was kept in the dark which in turn WILL diminish the P O W E R S of the large (corporations, governments, religious institutions, etc), and WILL e m p o w e r the small (individuals, communities, truth activists) just as it did in the 60’s—a time (decade) that was good for RTS I am sure…. Do you remember the 60’s and how it changed the lives of so many? the voices of individuals became loud and clear and people discovered their power and used it…may it be with a help of a puff of the magic dragon for some (or too many or not enough)…the birth of amazing artists and musicians and philosophers…not the bubble gum crap we see today…those times echoes today and YOUR VOICE Marcia will one day be such an echo…this is my time to create stable grounds to my life…so my only voice to you is please do not get affected by the decision…adapt and overcome and remember MUCH better days are coming…and if you have unstable chaotic inner not spoken emotions— it’s ok —it is all part of the process—as you know things are different especially with the new news… Happy New Year Marcia and thank you RTS for the update.
any Peloton Cycle bike riders on IM?
also- to understand these deaths…one must understand their lives-
THESE LIVES MATTER!
and maybe in time people you mentioned below Diane will just come out some day
No offense intended Joy…but IF you have what you say you have, there is a pretty good chance it could have made a difference when it really mattered and that was BEFORE this decision was rendered. Nobody should be sitting on any information regarding the deaths of the crew on the YHF.
MY REPLY IN CAPS BELOW—>
Gary Olson says
JANUARY 2, 2017 AT 12:59 AM
No offense intended Joy NONE TAKEN 🙂
…but IF you have what you say you have,
THERE IS AN AREA THAT HAS IT IN COMPLETION—I HAVE PARTIAL DATA—AND IF YOU SAW ONE OF THE JUDGES IN MCKEE CASE IS ONE OF THE JUDGES FROM PROPERTY CASE AND 2 OF THOSE JUDGES HAVE ADDED DATA AS WELL SINCE FALL—SO DO OTHER AREAS BUT NO WAY IN HELL WOULD I PLACE IT HERE WITHOUT HAVING THE SUPPORT OF MY OWN PAID IN FULL LEGAL SUPPORT SHARING HOW I CAN SHARE IT—THIS IS SERIOUS—AND I WILL NOT BE A PERSON TO DO WHAT IS ANOTHER’S DUTY—NOPE…YET IT DOES NOT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO KNOW THERE IS MISSING DATA NOT YET SURFACED…
there is a pretty good chance it could have made a difference when it really mattered WELL THAN THAT LAYS ON 2 JUDGES HANDS WHO DO KNOW…AND DID NOT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE—and that was BEFORE this decision was rendered.
I DOUBT IT KNOWING 2 JUDGES AND CERTAIN OTHERS HAVE IT—
Nobody should be sitting on any information regarding the deaths of the crew on the YHF.
WELL, UNFORTUNATELY EVEN CERTAIN LEAKS HAVE GOT DATA TO GO AMISS OR EVEN THE WHOLE SYSTEM CHANGED YET THE RAW INFORMATION EXISTS EVEN IF THEY CHANGED THE SYSTEMS……I AM NOT GETTING ENGAGED IN A BACK AND FORTH ON TOPIC—I SAID IT MANY TIMES BEHIND THE SCENES THERE IS CERTAIN FOLKS WHO DO HAVE THE ADDED DATA AND LIKE MUZZY SAID—I AM DOING…
WTKTT,
Reply to the Hail Mary plan-it makes sense to me that Eric marsh would have initially visualized this plan with others (Cordes etc contributing) but what doesn’t make sense to me is that nowhere is it noted except by maybe Jesse steed that this move to save Yarnell is too dangerous for the firefighters–why wasn’t cordes looking to provide for safety during this plan or do we just not have a record of him and others doing so?
OK I was not coming Back but had to reply to the Hail Mary Plan.
First we guest there might such a plan.
The Problems are many and have little to no fact.
Second The Fire was into Yarnell as stated before Steed was told to bring the crew to the BSR. There was no possible way to assist Yarnell at 1600. Again what could a hand crew do?
By 1600 the fire was moving it would have been to late for any line construction.
Third Ball was sent to check on a tractor line. This was more of a scouting check than anything else. At tis point I think the Fire supervisors were looking for a quick new plan or Hail Mary plan to save what they could it was to late to do any thing.
Forth The Question of the Engine being sent to check on the crew. They were told to go to the BSR.
Two unknowns one were they suppose to be at the BSR?
Or was the thought because they had not herd from the crew that the Engine could see them on the mountain from the BSR?
Fifth and Final we still have no actual proof that Marsh was not with the crew the whole time or that he was at BSR and returned to the crew. Were they just moving to the BSR with no other plan than to be in a location for pickup?
There is just no undisputable evidence of a plan or who may have suggested such a plan. I have no real problem with Ball being asked to check on the ability to push a cat line across and above Glen esla.. Question do we have time to deploy a cat to protect Glen elia
The fire was out preforming the. Expectations of the overhead.
Ill leave it there and go back into retirement.
Good information Bob powers. I didn’t realize that the fire was in town before steed was asked to bring the men down.
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 2:53 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Good information Bob powers.
>> I didn’t realize that the fire was in town before
>> steed was asked to bring the men down.
If we define ‘in town’ as ‘structures now burning’… then it wasn’t.
I believe it’s been confirmed that the very FIRST ‘structures’ within the city limits of Yarnell to have ‘burned’ were the ones out at the Youth Camp, at the western end of Shrine Road, on the northwest corner of Yarnell itself.
As seen in the Yarnell-Gamble video… those structures had NOT yet ‘caught fire’ even as late as 4:27 PM.
The first known ‘confirmation’ that Marsh and Steed might have completed any ‘arguments’ they had been having and that Steed HAD agreed to bring Granite Mountain OUT of the safety of the black at the anchor points comes in the 4:13 PM radio capture.
Here again is a transcript of that Panebaker video radio capture…
————————————————
PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 STARTS
AT 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
+0:00 ( 1612.49 / 4:12.49 PM )
( ASM2 – B33 – French to VLAT DC10 911 ): …plan a left turn out back to Phoenix.
+0:03 ( 1612.52 / 4:12.52 PM )
( DC10 VLAT 911 ): Allright. We can do all the way around. That’ll work
+0:05 ( 1612.54 / 4:12.54 PM )
( ASM2 – B33 – French ): I’m at one-fifty.
+0:06 ( 1612.55 / 4:12.55 PM )
( DC10 VLAT 911 ): Perfect. Spacing looks good.
+0:08 ( 1612.57 / 4:12.57 PM )
( Unknown ): ASM2, Copy that… behind the hills is where you place Granite Mountain?
+0:13 ( 1613.02 / 4:13.02 PM )
( ASM2 – B33 – Burfiend? ): They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.
NOTE: A few seconds later… Someone OTHER than who ASM2 (B33) was just talking to ( someone with what sounds like a Cajun accent? ) does exactly what ASM2 (B33) just TOLD them to do. He calls Granite Mountain directly and asks them to report their STATUS.
+0:41 ( 1613.30 / 4:13.30 PM )
( Unknown ): Granite Mountun ( Five? Fire? )… Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?
NOTE: Even though this ‘unkown’ caller wanting to know GM’s ‘status’ at this moment asked for ‘Granite Mountain’ specifically ( and not ‘Division Alpha’ )… DIVSA Eric Marsh responds immediately on BEHALF of Granite Mountain before ACTING GM Superintendent Jesse Steed even had a chance to say anything at all…
+0:54 ( 1613.43 / 4:13.43 PM )
( DIVSA Eric Marsh ): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. (slight pause) mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
———————————————–
So right there, as early as 4:13 PM ( and right smack in the middle of this 30 minute period where the SAIT said there were ‘no direct communications’ with Marsh or GM ), we have Eric Marsh himself confirming ( to some still-unknown person ) that GM had, in fact, already left the safe black and were already ‘on their way’ down to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
We also have a VISUAL that the fire had not quite yet even started burning the structures out at the end of Shrine Road even as late as 4:27 PM.
In the Yarnell-Gamble video, Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble was filming from the driver’s side seat of one of the BR Crew Carriers while it was still parked out there at the Youth Camp.
What he was ‘filming’ ( at 4:27 PM ) was the fire just then actually coming over the crest of the ridge just to the north of the Youth Camp.
But the ‘Youth Camp’ area wasn’t engulfed in flames yet and even the strucutres ‘out there’ hadn’t started burning yet.
In the AUDIO part of that video comes the SECOND confirmation ( from Eric Marsh ) that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were ALREADY ‘on the move’ and ‘coming from the heel of the fire’, even before the fire had reached that northwest boundary of Yarnell there at that ‘Youth Camp’.
Once again… here is one of the possible transcripts for that ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video… and the exact ‘times’ involved…
————————————————-
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO STARTS
AT 1627.26 ( 4:27.26 PM )
+0:00 ( 1627.26 / 4:27.26 PM )
Siren from one of the Peeples Valley Engines staged at the Youth Camp is heard in the background. This was a ‘prearranged’ warning signal to tell the firefighters working further west out in Harper Canyon to stop what they are doing and return to the Youth Camp ASAP.
+0:01 ( 1627.27 / 4:27.27 PM )
( Not confirmed, but definitely sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): Copy… uh… come down and appreciate if you could come a little faster but it’s yours to figure it out.
+0:12 ( 1627.38 / 4:27.38 PM )
( Confirmed: Eric Marsh ): Uh… they’re comin’ from the heel of the fire.
+0:15 ( 1627.41 / 4:27.41 PM )
( Confirmed: Brian Frisby ): Structue Group core, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1.
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO ENDS
AT 1627.44 ( 4:27.44 PM )
——————————————————-
Short and simple.
The crew at the rest spot prior to 1600.
Sent messages over their Cell Phones that the fire was Running into Yarnell. Did I say burning Houses? NO. What the crew could see was the fire making a hard run at the town.
They are a hard one hour hike to Yarnell from their position.
How much would be left if they could even get there.
They were to the deployment site in 45 minuets. The fire over ran them.
They were not in a position to help Yarnell or any place else. My conclusion they did not move for some Hail Mary saving a town.
Hey Bob, isn’t retirement great! So, why in your opinion did the crew move?
Norb–
My opinion has always been they moved to be in a location to be picked up or meet up with their vehicles.
Bad decision, Bad selected Rout, Bad Timing.
They moved to the BSR to be picked up.
NO DRAMA.
NO STRUCTURE PROTECKTION
NO HAIL MARRY.
Bob is right of course, we don’t have any evidence there was a “Hail Mary” plan which is what I have always said when I have been asked about it.
It is however, the ONLY thing anyone has ever suggested that makes any sense to me for their reckless move.
For example, IF they were just moving to the BSR for a pickup point, why not wait 15 minutes and walk through the new black that was just about to be created? Why was it so important for them to get to the edge of town BEFORE the wildfire?
And once again, I don’t believe Marsh and whoever else helped devise such a plan would actually work and save the town, that was never the plan (I believe).
The plan was to LOOK GOOD while failing in their mission so they would get good press, be the heroes of the YHF because they tried so gallantly to save the town and thereby save their crew from the ax that was probably going to be used by the Prescott City Council to kill their dream of a Type I crew.
It was supposed to be a replay of the Doce Fire, once the town is cheering you as heroes, its even tougher to go to the unemployment line. I know…I have been there and done that.
Funny story about that. When I was sent to fight wildfires around Asheville, North Carolina as part of a three man extended dispatch/logistics team we did what all of the assholes who go out on those kind of jobs do, we went out on the town at night to party.
Once the locals found out we were “firefighters” there to save them from all of the wildfires, we were seated at the band’s table by Bill Stanley himself (who owned Bill Stanley’s Bluegrass and Barbecue Pig Pit or whatever it was called) and all of the women asked us to clog with them, even though I didn’t have any idea what cloggin’ was before that night. My back actually got sore I had so many drunk hillbillies and townspeople pattin’ it and thankin’ me for my service. What a joke, we spent all day in an office talking on the telephone and filling out resource order forms.
That the only time I ever remember anybody thanking me for anything while I was a WF. Back then, before WUI, citizens neither knew or cared who we were or what we did just as long as the smoke from the wildfires didn’t hover over their towns.
Things have really changed and we are now even going to have our own movie…bitchin’. I mean, “Always” was a good movie and real tear jerker but that was really about slurry bomber pilots and not about WF per se.
And welcome back Bob, we need your expertise and oversight…even if I disagree with you from time to time. You still know a hellavuh lot more than I do about fightin’ fire. Now of course no one knows more than I do about being a hotshot, RTS comes in a distant second though.
Gary,
You posted: “The plan was to LOOK GOOD while failing in their mission so they would get good press, be the heroes of the YHF because they tried so gallantly to save the town and thereby save their crew from the ax that was probably going to be used by the Prescott City Council to kill their dream of a Type I crew.
“It was supposed to be a replay of the Doce Fire, ….
I totally agree with this.
And you are so right about knowing more than anyone about being a Hot Shot. I bow before you from a distance …. Oh Mighty Bullshitter
Happy New Year.
Ooch…the ole self deprecating feign with a back handed compliment given tongue in cheek is a play right of the Niccolò Machiavelli playbook.
Well played RTS…well played.
So we know anyone on the fire who had a cabin accent?
Reply to Diane lomas post on January 2, 2017 at 6:34 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Reply to the Hail Mary plan-it makes sense to me
>> that Eric marsh would have initially visualized this
>> plan with others (Cordes etc contributing) but
>> what doesn’t make sense to me is that nowhere
>> is it noted except by maybe Jesse steed that
>> this move to save Yarnell is too dangerous for the
>> firefighters–why wasn’t cordes looking to provide
>> for safety during this plan or do we just not have
>> a record of him and others doing so?
As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.
Perfect example of this is what we APPEAR to be hearing in the ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video itself.
Whoever it was that *appears* to have been urging Eric Marsh to “get to town quickly” also made it clear that it was Marsh’s ‘responsibility’ to ‘figure out HOW to do it’ ( safely ).
Here again is one of the possible ‘transcripts’ for the conversation(s) being heard in that Yarnell-Gamble video…
—————————————————————–
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO STARTS AT 1627.26 ( 4:27.26 PM )
+0:00 ( 1627.26 / 4:27.26 PM )
Siren from one of the Peeples Valley Engines staged at the Youth Camp is heard in the background. This was a ‘prearranged’ warning signal to tell the firefighters working further west out in Harper Canyon to stop what they are doing and return to the Youth Camp ASAP.
+0:01 ( 1627.27 / 4:27.27 PM )
( Not confirmed, but definitely sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): Copy… uh… come down and appreciate if you could come a little faster but it’s yours to figure it out.
+0:12 ( 1627.38 / 4:27.38 PM )
( Confirmed: Eric Marsh ): Uh… they’re comin’ from the heel of the fire.
+0:15 ( 1627.41 / 4:27.41 PM )
( Confirmed: Brian Frisby ): Structue Group core, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1.
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO ENDS AT 1627.44 ( 4:27.44 PM )
—————————————————————-
Notice that whoever that was ( apparently ) telling Eric Marsh that he would ‘appreciate’ it if Marsh could ‘come a little FASTER’ also ends that ‘request’ with something like “it’s YOURS to figure it out” ( how to do it SAFELY ).
What ( ultimately ) caused the tragedy itself was that no one involved with Granite Mountain had the good sense ( or the spinal fluid ) to respond to the ‘request’ with…
“It cannot be done SAFELY at this time, given the distance to travel and the current fire behavior… so we are not ‘coming down'”
Initially granite mountain said no and asked whoever was making the request to ask blue ridge hotshots who were closer. Then granite mountain started coming down.
Wish we knew what doughnut overheard on radio.
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 4:30 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Initially granite mountain said no and
>> asked whoever was making the request
>> to ask blue ridge hotshots who were closer.
And that has always been SOLELY according to OPS2 Paul Musser.
I have always had my doubts that we are really getting an accurate accounting of that ( supposed ) 3:42 PM conversation between OPS2 Paul Musser and DIVSA Eric Marsh.
Isn’t it odd that this ‘conversation’ supposedly took place over an open ( and HIGHLY monitored ) TAC frequency… but no one else has EVER testified hearing this ‘conversation’ or what it actually ‘contained’.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> Then granite mountain started coming down.
Correct.
According to OPS2 Paul Musser… Eric Marsh had REFUSED Musser’s request to ‘come down’. Then ( just minutes later )… Eric Marsh is already on his way “off the top” and ‘scouting’ a route to the Boulder Springs Ranch so Granite Mountain CAN ‘come down’.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> Wish we knew what doughnut
>> overheard on radio.
Yep.
So it is possible that Eric marsh did not initially refuse to come down mountain but began planning a route for granite mountain to take off the mountain. It’s possible the conversation between marsh and Musser never happened?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 9:33 pm
>> Diane lomas said….
>>
>> So it is possible that Eric marsh did
>> not initially refuse to come down
>> mountain but began planning a
>> route for granite mountain to take
>> off the mountain.
Yes. It;s possible.
Do YOU believe that what OPS2 Paul Musser reported about that 3:42 radio conversation with DIVSA Marsh is “The TRUTH…. the WHOLE TRUTH… and nothing BUT the TRUTH”?
Personally.. I do NOT.
>> Diane lomas also said….
>>
>> It’s possible the conversation
>> between marsh and Musser
>> never happened?
Oh… I believe it most certainly DID ‘happen’.
We DO, in fact, HEAR OPS2 Paul Musser actually ‘calling out’ to DIVSA Eric Marsh right at 3:42 PM, while Musser was still physically present in the Sickles Ranch Road area and now ‘turning his attention’ to Yarnell itself.
What we do NOT have a ‘recording’ of is the conversation that took place between Musser and Marsh.
All we have ever had to go on there is just Paul Musser’s “word for it” regarding what was actually said during this radio call.
No one has ever even determined if Brendan McDonough himself actually HEARD this conversation between Musser and Marsh over that open TAC channel they were using.
WTKTT said:
“As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.”
As an active wff in a leadership position (and for what ever the heck it’s worth) I officially corroborate this statement. Good job. I could tell you some stories about ‘pressure from above’,,,, but, I don’t need to regale everyone with that ridiculousness, what you have said is true. Period.
Woodsman
And I wholeheartedly second Woodsman’s corroboration of the claim that WTKTT posted:
“As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.”
And that is how it is really accomplished by those competent supervisors that hold their ground and comply with their premier supervisory responsibility to provide for the safety and welfare of those they are responsible for, NO MATTER WHAT any higher authority requests, directs, or orders them to do.
Just to be clear…
I did not mean to ABSOLVE ( in ANY way ) the ‘others’ in ‘fire command’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire from any liability for the deaths of those men.
ADOSH itself established that there was all kinds of ‘gross negligence’ and ‘wilfull misconduct’ going on that day that all ‘contributed’ to the 19 fatalaties that took place in that fucked-up Arizona Forestry workplace.
I was just trying to answer Diane’s question.
Yes… the people in ‘fire command’ ALWAYS have their own ‘responsibilities’ for keeping their employees ‘safe’… but ( as I pointed out )… it is ultimately each resource’s own leadership that is *directly* responsible for the safety of the resources ‘under their ‘direct’ supervision’.
As Gary Olson and others have posted–Granite Mountain s plan to come off the mountain and into Yarnell was to look good while failing in their mission to support their extended employment with the Prescott fire dept etc makes sense to me although I can’t help but notice that that goes against their mantra to be not to seem.
Do we know anyone on the fire who spoke with a cajun accent ?
/
And remember…#blackriflesmatter
Yes, back in the 70’s, friend Jeff had some of the Magic Dragon smoke–so I thought would at his urging try the shit out. Unlike President Clinton, I took a hell of a drag. It did not take long until my whole being shrunk to about two inches in height. I could not understand how I was driving and still seeing over the steering wheel so it must have taken an hour to get that vehicle home–a rural desert road but we made it fine. It certainly did give me a different outlook on life, but after that experience I have never tried it again. However, I do feel in America, the land of the brave and freeman, that any individual that cares to use it ought to go for it without repercussions of the law. People are being relieved of pain and it is even said to cure certain ailments and safer than drinking as far as I can understand.
This bull shit that your kids will get it and go to stronger things because of peer pressure would be because you did not instill the good values in that child to begin with or the DNA is such in that child that any type of instruction and correction will not help–that person will grow into a psychopath despite all your efforts. Fortunately few children are that way–so proper training works well for most cases.
The debate goes on–but your law enforcement benefits from the BS since they get billions of dollars fighting the doper scene, yet doping has only increased with all their efforts. Law enforcement has succeeded in filling the prisons with dopers when they could do better work chasing child molesters, rapists, burglars, robbers, murderers, kid nappers, Clinton types in white collar crimes, and so forth. Granted many dopers get into such crimes, but many do not–yet they are arrested when they ought to be in treatment centers if that far along. Holland has it right–cordon off areas for dopers only–there are plenty of slums for the slum type and you can find plenty of upgrade areas for the rich and famous–many who are also dopers.
Now the rich folks or those with plenty money can afford medical dope–while many of those of insufficient funds have to rely upon their dope peddler or grow their own in their private areas. Arizona has not advanced enough to allow this–they are still benefiting too much from the money generated by the prison jobs, jails and policing efforts. In fact new prisons have sprung up in recent years–but then now you can go to jail for debt–not paying fines and many of the poor can’t meet those demands. Debtors prisons were supposed to be an English thing and done away with in America, but not so. Some would call these people loosers, but I can tell you that the minimum wage will barely support a single person and not even a small family.
So will things change? Hell no, they will get worse so we will adapt best we can. Meantime big business will allow greed to override good and proper actions and money will continue to be the pursuit of happiness for many. Do not expect the FS to stop dropping retardant on your houses any time soon if ever. And the fishes in the deep blue sea will continue to die in bunches while old folks diminished in health will join them. And we will continue to hand out awards to those responsible.
My opinions but I am an old dog and hard to teach me new tricks.
And of course this ruling is EXACTLY what I have been saying for quite some time now and sometimes I hate it when I am right. This is one of those times.
I also agree with the ruling based on the law, which is also what I have been saying all along. There is however…one more thing I want to remind everyone of…and that is the lawsuits should never have been filed against the State of Arizona in the first place because they didn’t do anything wrong that was outside of the boundaries of Chaos which is what happens on every wildfire when they are going to hell in a hand basket, which I have also written many times.
So once again…what made the Yarnell Hill Fire different than all of the other wildfires in history except for the Loop Fire and the Battlement Creek Fire, is the reckless, negligent and wanton disregard for almost all of the wildland firefighting rules that have been developed over more than 100 years at the cost of countless lives (because I don’t we even know how many died in the Idaho fires of 1910) in the way Eric Marsh and Darrell Willis managed the crew..
I guess there must be reasons why the City of Prescott couldn’t be sued (other than the state has deeper pockets), but I have always said and I still think that all of the fault lies with the City of Prescott and the Prescott Fire Department because they enabled Eric Marsh and Darrell Willis who were both manifestly unqualified and unfit to manage a hotshot crew to have one to play with.
But assigning the blame for the deaths of the crew where it belongs is a Rubicon that most people are unwilling and unable to cross. Shame on them.
And the biggest mistake Marcia’s attorneys made?
In their arrogance they didn’t ask me to help them conduct an investigation of what happened, interview witnesses and write their complaint, so…
Yes, there is blame for the deaths that extend beyond the sole responsibility above & beyond the direct crew supervisors. I’ll state just one example: the city fire department. The city fire department should have never been permitted to field a type 1 ‘hotshot’ crew in the first place for many reasons.
I wasn’t clear when I whole-heartedly agreed with wtktt’s summary of where ultimately responsibility lays. There are (in my opinion) many other pressures, demands & other factors at play which have debated over & over by many of us here.
The crew died. It was more than just the failure of the immediate crew supervision. The situation was created in the first place in order for that to happen. How & why was the situation created in the first place? Who did what (or didn’t do) when that led to the outcome?
W
And I wasn’t fully clear when I was just trying to answer Diane’s question about IF there HAD been a ‘Hail Mary’ plan… why Gary Cordes wasn’t doing more to make sure it was a ‘safe’ plan.
I am by no means ‘absolving’ anyone from any responsibility in the deaths of those 19 men in that fucked-up Arizona Forestry workplace.
SAFETY is EVERYONE’S concern.
But if someone asks a CREW to ‘walk’ from point A to point B ( for whatever reason )… it really IS the final responsibility of the people who run that crew to say whether that ‘walk from point A to point B’ is both ‘possible’ AND ‘safe to do’.
I don’t think there has ever really been any argument about that ‘reality’.
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE HERE AND WORLD!
so all those locals who are Alex Jones fans…think trouble is about to happen come the new year…AGW believers (global warming)…PGD (power grid down) folks…zerohedge fans…drudgereport folks…https://youtu.be/igPkHADOyeE…https://youtu.be/_lZUdGrbIDc… I don’t know…do I even say or type HAPPY new year to you folks…Next year ends in a 7. biggest one-day stock drop in Wall Street history happened in 1987, Asian crisis was in 1997, worst global meltdown since the Great Depression got rolling in 2007…is America awake for the possible or impossibles for 2017? There is even in 2017 a movie due out…no not just the Granite Mountain one but one actually called T R O U B L E…
Besides a new year…it is that time of the year:
the legislation ( and the public ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ it created ) EXPIRES on December 31, 2016.
It also says that on the following day, January 1, 2017, the ‘Arizona State Parks Board’ shall then be solely responsible for administering the ‘fund’ which was also created by the self-repealing legislation.
As said 10-11-16 by wwtktt—
this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ only has until December 31, 2016 to finish trying to ‘influence’ the DESIGN and the ACCESS RESTRICTIONS for this new State Park… and then ‘Arizona State Parks’ becomes the sole authority in charge of setting the ‘rules’ for this new PUBLIC State Park….that is less than one hour now…
Muzzy…since 9-2-16…I am still doing exactly just that… nail down all the details
Peeples Valley FD update: chief emailed 12-29-16 13:31pm asking exactly what I needed even though he has had it since June and as well in our November meeting but I recapped it…12-29-16 17:49pm and still NOTHING on YFD but seen the chief at the post office shortly after my own heart concerns…”beware of chiropractors” when you have heart stuff going on—one can have a stroke when doing neck manipulation—our cardio said it happen to one of his patients; age 27.
I dreamnt about an accident that is why I asked for details Diane on 12-24-16—in dream I was one of the side bystanders that got hit…
I also had a dream the other day with my deceased aunt in it and she told me stuff in dream that down right freaked my brothers and mother out that ONLY my mom and her sis could ONLY know that was confirmation that my aunt came through and it was real time stuff as well as a private event between my mom and her in early 80’s to confirm it was a message to my mom for now today as a message to get to her. I even explained to my mom to how my aunt passed on so she can further look into it….I spent alot ALOT of funds this month on my TN fire/MS family to get them situated and it screwed up some of them up health wise…good people too so it was hard that even a Harry and David delivery is not gonna change the situation (I so love their pears)….I am tired of the manufactured bullshits made by man going on in this world including the firefighting industry…that I am starting to think the bible’s revelations 16:3 and the RED is probably the color of the sea/ocean once slurry drop glazed creeks/rivers/bays/etc hit the ocean and it kills every little living thing as said in bible and ask people in the field as they pay attention to mid CA to Canada Pacific Region as that area which is well doused with wildfires DO SEE red in the sea already…and lots of dead sea creatures…and I am not speaking of “red tides”
Wow. I love all the comments…I really remember it being 1068 comments…I have alot of reading…but been reading h t tp s : //w w w .amazon.c o m/Wildfire-Reader-Century-Failed-Forest/dp/1597260878 and I lost a relative on 12-28-16 due to heart failure- over in Louisiana; age 72.
Bill Gabbert has an awesome piece of art I got this month— fantastic piece of firefighting art—thank you bunches Bill-
http://fineartamerica.com/profiles/bill-gabbert.html?tab=artwork
more names to the cast:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
what was the top 3 discoveries in 2016 in regards to Wildfires or and YHF or other fires…
what does people want to learn in 2017…in regards to what keeps us coming here…what is it we await….
https://www.instagram.com/p/BOWUtsqgPZv/?tagged=granitemountain
the trail has been a real success and it has helped locals get out and hike…so I have enjoyed the new park…been alot of foggy view days in December…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BOUuLEQhgOR/?tagged=granitemountain
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNpzrX_BpA7/?tagged=granitemountain
neat pic:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNfSrsEgd46/?tagged=granitemountain
Thank you for the photos.
I see that people are ( as predicted ) ‘leaving stuff’ at the deployment site itself. ( T-Shirts, etc. ). I wonder if those things will be left in place, or ‘removed’ as soon as the rent-a-ranger spots them.
I also still think the ‘lobster cages filled with rocks’ and the CHAINS between them was a very poor choice.
The crosses look like they are permanently ‘in prison’ out there in some kind of bizarre boondock jailcell.
I also think it was a poor choice to ‘spread out’ the memorial markers on that rented right-of-way across Arizona State Trust Land ( and not on the park grounds itself ).
One of the biggest ‘themes’ throughout this tragic story is how ‘close’ they all were ( as a unit ) and how they all ‘stayed together’… but then they decide to ‘isolate’ each of the markers and ‘separate’ all of them giving each one this sense of ‘separation from the others’.
It still seems that if they were going to have BIO plaques… they should have been consistent with that ‘theme’ of ‘togetherness’ and put them all together somewhere… not ‘spread out’ in isolation/loneliness like they did.
Just my opinion(s).
Your comments changed my thinking—-keeping the men together is important-as you stated they died together and should be kept together throughout the memorial site. I assume that the chains were important to some of the loved ones in order to protect this area.
Just had a thought– What a contrast from this treatment of the deployment site to when the men were initially found. At that time (night of 6/30/2013 until investigators arrived the following morning) the site was not totally secured; items were removed and we don’t know what else was altered in this area overnight.
Good point…I didn’t think of that, but you are right, they should have been kept together and not left alone on that godforsaken mountain.
Joy,
I’m not sure if this is what you are asking about or if it is even possible but I think it is important to accomplish an interview with individuals who weren’t interviewed fot the SAIT or ADOSH reports: such as Dan Sullivan,Paul Morin,County Supervisor, etc
Ronald Gamble may be available as he is no longer with Blue Ridge hotshots and working in Prescott.
People that have attempted to introduce new evidence on the Yarnell fire incident are told that the investigation is closed. Both Joy and wild land fire fighter Holly Neil can attest to that. You would think in a murder that the investigation and new evidence would always be considered. Some have been exonerated by new evidence and murder cases should never be closed. New evidence and better forensic methods has convicted many cold murder cases.
Well in the case of Yarnell it was never investigated that way. But some would say it should have been considering the negligence involved that killed those young wild land fire fighters. Without holding responsible the parties that were responsible for the deaths, these type negligent actions will continue to kill these young wild land fire fighters.
Needless to say, those that write about this and those that will publish books and reviews giving the real reasons those men died will save young lives down the line. There are plenty of men that bossed on the Yarnell fire that need these lessons–maybe some of them are already reconsidering how they risk their young subordinates lives for no good reason as they did in the Yarnell Fire.
It was certainly a needless sacrifice of lives–and for what–so some asshole could look good in his attempt to save structures?
Charlie,
Would that be Gary Cordes and Paul Musser?
good luck Diane…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 31, 2016 at 11:47 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> more names to the cast:
>> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
Still very ODD that they REFUSE to say which ‘real life’ persons the main characters are playing, even though that information has long since leaked out in media articles and on the actors’ own social media pages.
And you do still have to love the ‘Yarnell Police Department’ character.
There was ( of course ) never any such person.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on December 30, 2016 at 6:13 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> THE HAIL MARY PLAN
>>
>> I have brought this topic up before and it was briefly discussed
>> but there wasn’t closure for me.’
>>
>> It appears that Eric Marsh may have been persuaded by this plan to undertake a
>> move that those in the field must have known was dangerous and ill-advised.
Diane… in some of the various ‘discussions’ that HAVE taken place regarding this possible ‘last ditch-effort’ dozer-line plan ( now referred to as the ‘Hail Mary Plan’ ), it became evident that it might be just ‘too simplistic’ to assume that if it happened, that it was ‘authored’ by people OTHER than ‘Eric Marsh’… and was then just ‘presented’ to him as either a ‘suggestion’… or perhaps even a direct ‘order’.
One of the more likely ‘scenarios’ is that this ‘plan’ ( if it really existed ) *might* have actually been ‘authored’ by DIVSA Eric Marsh HIMSELF… or simply ‘co-authored’ between Marsh and others… such as OPS2 Paul Musser and SPGS1 Gary Cordes… and ( maybe ) even OPS1 Todd Abel.
Eric Marsh himself was the one RECORDED on the ‘radio’ telling ‘fire command’, at 3:42 PM, that the fireline was now ALREADY ‘moving south, TOWARDS Yarnell’, and that it had already marched right through that massive west-to-east retardant line laid out in the bowl by Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) to try and ‘protect Yarnell’.
So from his ‘excellent’ vantage point out on the Weaver Ridge… DIVSA Eric Marsh could SEE better than ‘anyone’ what the fire was now DOING… what it was GOING to do ( march right into Yarnell and Glen Ilah )… AND ( most importantly )… DIVSA Eric Marsh had ( as early as 3:42 PM ) the BEST VIEW of that whatever ‘possibilities’ might remain to do anything at all to try and prevent the fire from entering the populated areas.
In fact… Eric Marsh might have been ‘formulating ideas/plans’ in his mind about some ‘last-ditch efforts’ to protect Yarnell and Glen Ilah even BEFORE he reported ( at 3:42 PM ) that the fire WAS now ‘headed into Yarnell’.
We still have no idea WHY Eric Marsh suddenly and mysteriously insisted ( circa 3:26 PM ) that Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby drop everything he was doing at the time ( and he WAS ‘very busy’ with his OWN crew down in the Sesame area ) and then ‘eat dust’ for 2 miles just to schlep all the UP to where Eric Marsh was out on the western ridge so they could have another ‘face to face’ meeting.
Brian Frisby has never fully explained this ‘request’ from Marsh… or whether Frisby even had any ‘idea’ WHY Marsh was asking for this second ‘face to face’ at such a critical time, and just before everything was about to start hitting the fan.
But common sense would say that at least one of the reasons Marsh was insisting on Frisby ‘coming all the way up there’ at that time, instead of just ‘discussing’ whatever it was Marsh had on his mind over the radio… was because Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE SOMETHING that Marsh thought could only be fully SEEN from HIS ‘vantage point’ up there on that western ridge.
If that is the case… then what could that have been?
Is it possible that even as early as 3:26 PM, when Marsh insisted Frisby ‘come up’, that Marsh had already ‘SEEN’ some ‘possibility’ for an additional ’emergency dozer line’ that might connect the southern part of the ‘Sesame clearing’ to the fully-improved driveway of the Boulder Springs Ranch… and that might function as a good ‘last line of defense’ for Yarnell and Glen Ilah?
Because not very long after that botched attempt at this second ‘face-to-face’ meeting between Marsh and Frisby would come an ‘order’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes to Blue Ridge Hotshot turned Bulldozer-boss Cory Ball to go ‘scout out a location’ for that very thing there to the ‘southwest’ of Yarnell.
So it does, in fact, remain crucial to KNOW if Brian Frisby himself knows anything more about WHY it was that Marsh was ‘insisting’ on that second ‘face-to-face’ at that crucial time of day that Sunday.
** PROOF THAT THERE WAS ‘A PLAN’…
From page 11 of the Blue Ridge Hotshots ( redacted ) ‘Unit Logs’, near the end of Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s ( signed ) ‘Unit Log’…
References for this ‘Unit Log’ entry…
BRIHC = Blue Ridge Interagency Hotshot Crew
‘Structure Group One’ = Direct reference to SPGS1 ‘Gary Cordes’.
‘back to Dozer Line’ = This is referring to the already-existing ‘Dozer Line’ out in the ‘Sesame’ area that Yavapai County Bullodozer operator Paul Morin and HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball HAD been working on prior to 4:00 PM.
————————————————————————————————-
1600??:
BRIHC disengaging to safety zone.
BRIHC one informs Structure Group One they are pushing everyone out of subdivision.
( NEXT LINE IS REDACTED ).
Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line.
Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision.
Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lakewood
( NEXT LINE IS REDACTED ).
Started evacuations of subdivision.
Helitanker drops water near manzanita junction.
Inquiry about helitanker availability.
Told there are other priorities.
( NEXT LINE IS REDACTED ).
Evacuations for next couple of hours.
Signed: ( REDACTED, but most certainly Cory Ball’s signature ) 7 / 1 / 2013
——————————————————————————————————
Breaking this down… we have this…
“1600??: BRIHC disengaging to safety zone.”
The 1600 ( 4:00 PM ) time on this is roughly CORRECT. That IS about the time that the Blue Ridge Hotshots who had ‘spread out’ along the ‘Sesame Cutover’ road to try and ‘improve it’ were told to RTO ( Reverse Tool Order ) and RUN back to their vehicles parked at the Youth Camp, and then immediately continue ‘evacuating’ down to the common ‘Safety Zone’ at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
“BRIHC one informs Structure Group One they are pushing everyone out of subdivision.”
Again… the ‘sequencing’ here is roughly correct. It was AFTER the Blue Ridge Hotshots reached their buggies and began leaving the Youth Camp that Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown started ‘bombing around’ the ‘Youth Camp’ area in their UTV yelling at the other firefighters to “get the hell out of here… right now”.
So it can be assumed that these ‘Unit Log’ entries of Ball’s were being written down in basically ‘sequential order’, as best as he could recall.
So now here comes the crucial entry in Ball’s ‘Unit Log’…
“Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.”
There it is.
Actual ( signed ) ‘testimony’ from Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball that there WAS at least SOME attempt at a ‘last-ditch-effort’ PLAN to see if anything could be done to stop the fireline from advancing straight into Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
If we accept that these ‘Unit Log’ entries really are being presented in ‘sequential order’ ( as in… first this happened… then that happened… and then this other thing happened )… then Cory Ball seems to be recalling that he was now given this ‘new assignment’ to go and scout for some kind of ’emergency dozer line’ as late as 4:15 PM… and AFTER the Blue Ridge Hotshots were already actively ‘evacuating’ from the Youth Camp and Frisby and Brown were already ‘bombing around’ trying to make sure all the other FFs in that area were also ‘getting out’.
And even this statment deserves it’s own ‘breakdown’, because of the ‘unanswered questions’ it has always raised…
“Structure group one…”
Cory Ball states unequivocally that this ‘order’ was being given to him directly by SPGS1 Gary Cordes… but there is absolutely NO mention of this ‘order’ in ANY of Gary Cordes’ own ‘testimony’ or even Gary Cordes’ own ‘Unit Log’.
“…assigns me and one other…”
Two things here…
1. Confirmation from Cory Ball that it was NOT ‘a suggestion’. It was a direct ASSIGNMENT ( as in… do what I tell you… RIGHT NOW )… and that it was coming directly from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
2. We still have NO IDEA who this “and one OTHER” person is/was. Was Cory Ball referring to bulldozer operator Paul Morin as the ‘one other’ being given the same ‘last-ditch-effort assignment’… or someone else? Is it possible that the ‘one other’ also being told to ‘participae’ in Cordes’ ‘assignment’ was DIVSA Eric Marsh, who Cordes might have KNOWN was already at or near the Boulder Springs Ranch where this ’emergency dozer line’ was supposed to ( now ) be ‘scouted’?
“…to locate possibility of dozer line…”
So there is no question, according to Cory Ball, that SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( as late as 4:15 PM ) still thought there was actually TIME to put in some kind of ’emergency dozer line’… and that even at that late hour Cordes thought it was still ‘safe’ enough to have Cory Ball ( and this mysterious ‘one other’ ) out there in front of the advancing fireline doing this ‘scouting’ work.
Gary Cordes KNEW that an entire Task Force and an entire Hotshot Crew were actively ‘retreating’ from the Shrine area… and he still thought there was time to ask ANOTHER individual ( Cory Ball ) and some mysterious ‘one other’ to put themselves out in front of the advancing fireline to try and ‘locate some NEW possibility for a NEW dozer line’.
“…to southwest of Yarnell.”
This just confirms that the LOCATION where Gary Cordes now wanted Cory Ball ( and this mysterious ‘one other’ ) to ‘scout for emergency dozer line’ was, in fact, the area southwest of the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area and near the Boulder Springs Ranch. Cordes himself testified ( to ADOSH ) that in the same timeframe… he DID know that is where Eric Marsh and ‘Granite Mountain’ were ‘headed’ and that he WAS ‘assuming’ they had already had ‘plenty of time to get there’ ( all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch ).
So it remains a possibility that when Gary Cordes gave this ‘last-ditch-effort assignment’ to Cory Ball ( and the mysterious ‘one other’ ), Cordes might have been assuming that Eric Marsh and the entire Granite Mountain crew had ( circa 4:15 PM when he is giving this new ‘assignment’ to Ball and the ‘dozer’ ) ALREADY ARRIVED at the Boulder Springs Ranch, and already WERE ‘available’ to help ‘improve’ whatever ‘last-ditch-effort dozer line’ they might have been able to ‘push’ in that area.
Back to Cory Ball’s ‘Unit Log’…
“Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line.”
The additional proof that this last-ditch-effort ‘assignment’ that Cordes gave Ball is REAL is this next log entry AND the fact that Cory Ball himself PHOTOGRAPHED his ‘arrival’ at the Yarnell Fire Station to do exactly what he said in his ‘Unit Log’. Cory Ball’s own photos show him riding ‘shotgun’ in a pickup truck and ARRIVING at the Yarnell Fire Station to “Acquire the ATV” at exactly 4:27 PM.
And 4:27 PM is ALSO the EXACT time that Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble recorded his own ‘video’ while sitting in the driver’s seat of one of the Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew Carriers out at the Youth Camp… just moments before it would ‘get the flock out of there’ and head EAST on Shrine Road to safety.
The 4:27 PM ‘Ronald Gamble’ video is the one where we actually HEAR someone communicating DIRECTLY with Eric Marsh and ( apparently ) asking him to ‘hurry up’ and get the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘to town’.
So at the SAME MOMENT that Cory Ball is actively ‘executing’ on his ‘assignment’ to ‘go scout emergency dozer line to the southwest of Yarnell’ ( near the Boulder Springs Ranch )… we ALSO hear someone either wondering why Granite Mountain is NOT at the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ yet and/or actively URGING Eric Marsh to ‘hurry up’ and get them there.
Coincidence?… or was it all part of the ‘plan’ to get both the ‘dozer’ cranking on this ’emergency plan’ AND make sure Granite Mountain was ‘in that area’ to help work on that ’emergency dozer push’?
We still don’t know the REAL answer(s) regarding this.
Followup…
Diane… I know the ‘response’ above doesn’t address some of the ‘questions’ in your mind… but if there is going to be a renewed discussion about any last-ditch-effort ‘plans’ to try and protect some/all of Yarnell and Glen Ilah… I just thought it worthwhile to point out 2 important things…
1. It still remains ‘highly likely’ that if there WAS such a ‘last-ditch-effort’ ( sic: Hail Mary ) plan… that DIVSA Eric Marsh himself *might* have been either the sole author or the co-author of it.
He had the BEST VIEW of the situation of anyone in ‘fire command’. Even BETTER than ‘Air Attack’… because we know now that the current ‘Air Attack’ in this timeframe ( Thomas French and John Burfiend and Clint Cross in ‘Bravo 33’ ) was ‘task fixated’ up on the NORTH side of the fire and not even in a postion to ‘advise’ anyone of any ‘possibilities’ there on the SOUTH end of the fire ). So Marsh actually would have been the ‘go to’ guy with regards to questions like “Do you seen any possibilities there for saving any parts of the town?”.
2. The BEST ‘evidence’ that there really WAS such a ‘last-ditch-effort’ plan to try and save some/all of Yarnell and Glen Ilah is still that ‘Unit Log’ testimony from Blue Ridge Hotshot turned HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball about what SPGS1 Gary Cordes TOLD him ( and one mysterious ‘other’ person ) to go and do. ( See if there was a good place to push an emergency dozer line somewhere to the southwest of Yarnell and near the Boulder Springs Ranch ).
As for OPS1 Todd Abel actually being one of the ‘authors’ of this ‘plan’ and/or having ‘knowledge’ of it… all I can say is that there is no evidence to support that. There is only some evidence that points to the opposite. That he did NOT even ‘know’ about any such plan.
That ‘evidence’ isn’t even after-the-fact ‘testimony’.
It is a REAL-TIME recording of OPS1 Todd Abel himself speaking to Marsh at exactly 3:50 PM when he is HEARD telling Marsh… “Okay. Copy. Keep me informed. You guys hunker and be safe and we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”.
If it turns out that is NOT then OPS1 Todd Abel’s voice in the 4:27 PM ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video telling Eric Marsh to please “Hurry up and get to town”… then all we have is OPS1 Todd Abel’s last known communication with Marsh containing that “hunker and be safe” directive… and nothing whatsoever about participating in any “last-ditch-effort” plan to try and ‘save’ anything at all.
WTKTT,
I am still reading your reply but wanted to let you know how much I appreciate the time and thought you have put into helping me understand the circumstances of this critical timeframe.
The elephant in the room for me is that no one was getting on the radio etc. and stating to air attack in the 3:50 p.m time frame that they needed to get to the Yarnell area ASAP as the situation was dire there.
Was air attack informed of Eric marsh’s observation at 3:42 p.m. that the fire line had breached the large retardant line that had been laid down earlier or did air attack assume that they could spend more time in the peeples valley area because the retardant line would offer protection?
Happy New Year everyone,
As we all count our blessings I include those of you on this blog that are committed to the Granite Mountain hotshots and our quest for justice for them and their families.
On a personal note I am so grateful that my grandson in Portland,Oregon who was recently hit and drug by a car that lost control on an icy road. Fortunately his hip and leg injuries weren’t more serious and he will recover after several more weeks in a wheechair and ankle to hip cast.
MY REPLY IN CAPS BELOW—>
Diane Lomas says
DECEMBER 31, 2016 AT 2:52 PM
Happy New Year everyone, HAPPY NEW YEAR AND WE HOPE YOU HAD GREAT CELEBRATIONS THIS MONTH…H.B. ALL AROUND YA’S…MANY HERE ON IM CELEBRATED BIRTHDAYS SO HAPPY BIRTHDAYS TOO….WE HAVE ALOT OF SAGITTARIUS/LEO/VIRGO/CANCERS ON HERE…
YOU ARE TRULY ONE AMAZING WOMAN DIANE…IN LIFE THERE ARE FOLKS WE FORGET WHAT THEY SAID OR DID BUT I WILL ALWAYS BE GRATEFUL
“Y O U” EXIST FOR THE SPECIAL WAY YOU MAKE ONE “F E E L”…
YOU ARE THE BEST!!!! KEEP SHARING!!! BECAUSE OF YOUR PARTICIPATION PEOPLE HAVE COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS—
As we all count our blessings I include those of you on this blog that are committed to the Granite Mountain hotshots and our quest for justice for them and their families. I AGREE
On a personal note I am so grateful that my grandson in Portland,Oregon who was recently hit ON A BIKE OR ON FOOT??? I FEEL IT WAS ON FOOT— STANDING…and drug by a car MID SIZE CAR??? WAS THERE A FEW OTHERS INVOLVED??? DID ANOTHER DIE AND ANOTHER IS IN BAD SHAPE? that lost control on an icy road. DID IT FISHTAIL??? OR WAS THIS LIKE A CHAOTIC ICE ROAD MESS OF EVENTS??? NOT JUST ONE EVENT BUT A COMBINATION DUE TO WEATHER CONDITION OF ROAD…Fortunately his hip and leg injuries weren’t more serious and he will recover after several more weeks in a wheelchair and ankle to hip cast.IT IS A JOURNEY TO RECOVER FROM…PRAYERS IN PROCESS—NOTHING BROKEN? MAINLY CONTUSIONS? I FELL DOWN ONCE A 15FT MINE SHAFT ONCE AND I FORTUNATELY DID NOT BREAK ANYTHING BUT BOY DID I HIT SIDE TO SIDE THEN THE BASE HARD…I COULD NOT HAVE MADE IT THROUGH SINCE I DON’T TAKE PHARMACEUTICALS WITHOUT MY GINGER, SALMON, DARK GRAPES, TURMERIC, THYME WHICH BEATS ANY PAIN PILL (INTERNAL FRESH BUT ALSO A BODY OIL RUB TOO), CHERRIES/RASPBERRIES/STRAWBERRIES, OLIVE OIL (MIXED WITH THYME OIL EXTERNAL) AND 1 TEASPOON INTERNAL, SAGE IS GREAT TO REDUCE THE SWELLING, ETC…EITHER WAY YOUR LOVED ONE OPTS TO RECOVER—WISHING IT IS GOD-SPEED AND GETS WELL SPOT ON 🙂
Thank you for thoughts about my grandson–he and my daughter were standing by sidewalk watching my son in law and granddaughters helping someone across the street putting chains on their car when a small car (driving too fast for icy conditions) tried to go around cars waiting and lost control on the icy road going up and onto the sidewalk where he hit my grandson with the front of his car–my daughter was nearly hit too but jumped out of the way. My grandson was dragged about 25 feet under the car.. a terrifying scene for all. My son-in-law and other adults lifted the car off of him and my daughter pulled him out. Ambulance took a long time getting to him because of traffic congestion due to dangerous roads and then doctor had trouble getting in to the hospital He had a dislocated hip and broken bones in kneecap and femur. Doctors put back dislocated hip (very painful) and then put the long cast on his one side for those broken bones. Kids were home from school due to bad weather and roads that day so the family went for a walk and then that happened—we just never know do we?
Thank you for asking about him.
Joy,
Thank you for the positive comments you made about my participation on IM. Your kind words are truly a new year’s gift.
Sometimes I hesitate to contribute as I worry about wasting someone’s time to answer my questions or that I am not qualified to participate because I don’t have a firefighter background and look at things differently. But I am curious and outraged at what happened to the hotshots and have a strong desire to get justice and bring out the truth even if I sometimes make a fool of myself in the questions that I ask.
I believe that with many of us working together we unraveling some of the tightly held secrets of this situation.
no, thank you. 🙂
When did the bulldozer arrive at the Boulder Springs Ranch on 6/60/13 to provide assistance on the fire or was it able to make it through the dangerous conditions?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on December 31, 2016 at 5:50 pm
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> When did the bulldozer arrive at the Boulder Springs Ranch on 6/60/13
>> to provide assistance on the fire or was it able to make it through
>> the dangerous conditions?
Not quite sure what you are asking there.
The only dozer that ever ‘arrived’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch itself ( as far
as we know ) was the one that went there later in the evening on Sunday,
June 30, 2016… AFTER the deployment and the deaths of the 19 Hotshots.
That’s the one that went to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to ‘push’
a ‘road’ out from the western edge of the Ranch property all the way out
to where the bodies were, to assist in the removal of the bodies the next morning.
The Yavapai County Public Works contract ‘dozer’ that was being used during the DAY on Sunday, June 30, 2013 out in the ‘Sesame area’ ( with operator Paul Morin onboard ) went ‘on the clock’ at 7:00 AM that Sunday morning and it arrived in Yarnell right around 8:45 AM ( according to SPGS1 Gary Cordes ).
It still remains an absolute UNKNOWN where this dozer actually WAS when the fire burned through Yarnell and Glen Ilah late Sunday afternoon.
It was so ‘unknown’ where this dozer was that operator Paul Morin himself ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was supposed to be ‘looking for’ ( in addition to the 19 GM Hotshots ) following the news of the deployment.
As for your reference to “make it through the dangerous conditions”… it remains a distinct possibility that Paul Morin actually ‘rode out’ the burnover out there in that clearing where the dozer low-boy trailer was staged… either inside the cab of the dozer or inside the dozer low-boy trailer cab itself.
Bulldozer operator Paul Morin was NEVER interviewed by ANYONE, so his actual whereabouts during the ‘burnover’, and what he may or may not have known about any ‘last-ditch emergency dozer line’ plan remains a mystery.
From the actual bulldozer ‘timesheet’ that was released ( with no redactions )
by Yavapai County at the request of Joy Collura…
——————————————–
Dozer: Cat D7R
Serial # 06562
From: Yavapai County
Shift 1:
START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM)
STOP: 2100 (9 PM)
Hrs: 14
Operator: Paul Morin
Shift 2:
START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight)
STOP: 1300 (2 PM)
Hrs: 13
Operator: Donald Rezzonico
——————————————-
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ SAIT interview notes…
——————————————-
0800-0900
Dozer arrived. Took dozer I to put it to work. I didn’t like that it had a 12 ft. blade.
——————————————-
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ handwritten ‘Unit Log’…
——————————————-
Date/Time: 6/30 08:45 ( 8:45 AM )
Dozer arrived. Started them to work after briefing on Sesame Street.
Ordered Dozer Boss. Stayed with dozer pushing line until Ball from
Blue Ridge took the Dozer Boss position. Ball was briefed on
operation and intent.
——————————————-
It is so important that there are accurate records as you have posted and Joy acquired. A man identifying himself as Paul Morin returned a call to me (I had left a voicemail on his phone that I wanted to talk to him about the fire and his perspective from being a bulldozer driver that day). He told me that he was NOT at the Yarnell fire. In addition, the phone number that he returned my call from was not the same number as where I left the message for him.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on January 1, 2017 at 1:51 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> A man identifying himself as Paul Morin returned a
>> call to me (I had left a voicemail on his phone that
>> I wanted to talk to him about the fire and his
>> perspective from being a bulldozer driver that day).
>> He told me that he was NOT at the Yarnell fire.
If that really is/was the ‘Paul Morin’ that worked for ( but is now retired from ) Yavapai County Works Department…
…then either HE is/was LYING… or his ’employer’ is/was.
That ‘timesheet’ for that Yavapai County bulldozer that was used in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 really DOES say the ‘operator’ for the ‘first shift’ was ‘Paul Morin’.
Just curious…
Did this ‘Paul Morin’ you spoke with CONFIRM that he was working for the ‘Yavapai County Public Works’ department in June of 2013?
Or did he say something like “Never ran a bulldozer in my life. Don’t know what you are talking about”?
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> In addition, the phone number that he returned my
>> call from was not the same number as where I left
>> the message for him.
I believe when you talked about this before… I showed you that the number you CALLED this ‘Paul Morin’ on was a ‘land-line’… and the number he called you BACK on was, in fact, a cellphone also registered to someone named ‘Paul Morin’.
Call from man identifying himself as Paul morin- I remember him saying that he was retired. He wanted to know who asked me to call him-I told him that I have been reading about the fire and that he was there so found his number in the
white pages as a bulldozer
operator and called him to get his perspective. He didn’t deny being a bulldozer operator but denied being at the fire. He may have returned my call to see if someone prompted my call to him. I don’t know we didn’t talk again.
I will look for the number that he called me from.
Diane… thank you… but what I’m still wondering is if there came a moment in ANY conversation that this ‘Paul Morin’ was, in fact, the ‘Paul Morin’ that was working for Yavapai County Public Works Department in June of 2013.
You say he said he was RETIRED.
Was it clear that what he meant was that… yes… he USED to work for Yavapai County Public Works… but that he has since RETIRED from there?
So there were two shifts for the dozer and it’s operators—one from 7 am to 9 pm on 6/30/2013 and another from midnight-2pm on July 1.
Paul Morin was the first shift operator and Donald Rezzonico was the second?
Donald Rezzonico created the road out to the deployment site?
Correction-I see that it was stated earlier that Donald Rezzonico created the road out to the deployment site.
Was the other bulldozer operator, Donald Rezzonico, interviewed?
No. Not by anyone ( that we know of ).
According to the Yavapai County dozer timesheet ( obtained from Yavapai County by Joy Collura ),Rezzonico was the one actually OPERATING that dozer when the road was ‘pushed’ out to the deployment site…
…but the HEQB ( Heavy Equipment Boss ) and/or DOZB ( Dozer Boss ) assigned to be supervising Rezzonico was none other than Dean Stewart… OPS1 Todd Abel’s long-time friend, old engine-buddy, and hunting partner.
Shown below is Dean Stewart’s actual ‘Resource Order’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire as contained in the official “J- Resource Orders.pdf” public evidence document…
Notice in the REQUEST itself that they were ‘sole sourcing’ this particular FBAN ( Fire Behavior Analyst ) request and specifically ASKING for it to be ‘filled’ with ‘Dean Stewart’ in the ‘Resource Requested’ field itself. Normally that field just indicates WHAT you are requesting ( by acronym… such as FBAN or DIVS or whatever )… and the next eligible person in rotation is used to filled the order. In this case, the person entering the resource request into the computer already knew they wanted ‘Dean Stewart’ before they even filled out the ‘Resource Requested’ field in the computer.
It states that ‘Dean Stewart’ was ‘sole sourced’ and ordered up as an FBAN ( Fire Behavior Analyst ) at 1734 ( 5:34 PM ) on Sunday, June 30, 2013… but there is photographic evidence of Dean Stewart being there working the Yarnell Hill Fire some time even BEFORE 5:34 PM on Sunday.
So he was there at the Yarnell Hill Fire before the official documents say a resource order was even placed for him.
So it appears that ‘Dean Stewart’ was just another person who was there on Sunday afternoon and ‘freelancing’ on the fire ( like Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) with no actual ‘resource order’ in place BEFORE arriving there.
To this day… there is still no ‘resource order’ at all for ‘Jason Clawson’… who ended up participating in the ground rescue mission and was actually the one making a radio call from the deployment site confirming the fatalities.
Very strange.
Anyway.. here is Dean Stewart’s resource order for Yarnell…
——————————————————————-
Request Number: O-59.5
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 1734 MST
From: AZ-ADC ( Dispatch ) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: FIRE BEHAVIOR ANALYST (FBAN) (Turner, Stewart Dean)
Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 1400 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: IN-IIC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1840 CST
Resource Assigned Unit ID: IN-INS
Resource Assigned: Turner, Stewart Dean (IN-IIC) [EFF/AD]
M/D Ind.: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 07/01/13 0715 EST
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/01/13 1015 PNT
Released Date: ( No entry )
Release To: ( No entry )
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: ( No entry )
Reporting Instructions: ICP MODEL CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES
VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY AZ.
——————————————————————–
Dean Stewart—if dean Stewart was supposed to be supervising Paul morin why was Corey ball needed when Paul morin didn’t have a radio and some necessary credentials?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 8:47 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Dean Stewart—if dean Stewart was supposed
>> to be supervising Paul morin why was Corey
>> ball needed when Paul morin didn’t have a
>> radio and some necessary credentials?
Dean Stewart was NOT the ‘supervisor’ for that bulldozer during the DAY… and during the shift when Yavapai County records say ‘Paul Morin’ was the dozer operator.
Dean Stewart only became the ‘Dozer Boss’ later that night, during the SECOND shift for that same dozer, which then featured operator Donald Rezzonico.
Here’s the timeline again…
That dozer ‘arrived’ in Yarnell circa 8:45 AM on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013. According to Yavapai County’s own records… that dozer ‘arrived’ with an ‘operator’ named ‘Paul Morin’. That operator that ‘arrived’ with the dozer had neither the proper red-card qualifications to be working an Arizona Forestry managed wildfire… nor did he have his own handheld radio.
When the dozer first showed up… SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself became the ‘supervisor’ of it… but Cordes didn’t want to get ‘stuck’ doing that all day so at the same time he was ‘putting the dozer to work’ out there in the Sesame area… Cordes officially requested someone to come and ‘relieve’ him and act as ‘Dozer Boss’ so that Cordes could get back to being SPGS1.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball became the ‘goto’ guy to replace Gary Cordes as ‘Dozer Boss’… but that didn’t happen until around 10:30 AM.
But once it did… ‘Cory Ball’… remained the ‘Dozer Boss’ for the rest of the morning and most of the afternoon.
Cory Ball remained with the dozer until it was driven back down to the ‘loboy staging area’ there at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita Drive(s).
Then Cory Ball ‘left’ the dozer ( and Paul Morin ) and drove the Blue Ridge Chase truck from that same ‘loboy staging area’ over to the Ranch House Restaurant.
Cory Ball then immediately TRIED to get ‘back there’ to that same staging area, in order to fulfill SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ request that he ( and ‘one other’ ) scout emergency dozer line to the southwest of Yarnell.
Cory Ball never made it back there… and since he was also unable to communicate with Paul Morin via radio… no one knew where he ( and the dozer ) were when the fire blew into Glen Ilah. So that is when Mr. Morin ended up on the same ‘missing persons’ list as the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
It is still NOT KNOWN if this is the same dozer then then ‘reappeared’ later ( after the burnover ) working the Glen Ilah area. Another dozer had ‘arrived’ in Yarnell BEFORE the burnover but it ‘reported’ to the Model Creek Elementary School when it arrived ( and not Yarnell ).
Later in the evening… it was decided that a ‘dozer’ needed to push a road from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to where the bodies were, in order to facilitate recovery of the bodies.
That’s when OPS1 Todd Abel’s longtime friend, old engine crewmate and Elk Hunting buddy ‘Dean Stewart’ entered the picture.
Whichever ‘dozer’ that was that arrived at the BSR to ‘push that road’… Dean Stewart was only then made the ‘DOZB’ ( Dozer Boss ) to supervise that task.
It is still ‘assumed’ that this dozer was the same Yavapai County dozer that had been there all day… but was now being ‘operated’ by Donald Rezzonico instead of Paul Morin… but there has actually never been any proof of that.
The dozer that ended up pushing the road out to the deployment site MAY have actually been the SECOND dozer that arrived BEFORE the burnover… and the original Yavapai County dozer might have been doing something else for that ‘second shift’ with operator Donald Rezzonico.
It was SPGS1 Darrell Willis who first ‘informed’ the investigators that the ‘Dozer Boss’ for that road work out to the deployment site was, in fact, ‘Dean Stewart’…
From Darrell Willis’ first of TWO interviews with ADOSH on August 19, 2013…
The following excerpt comes at that moment when ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks
was wondering if Darrell Willis knew who actually was ‘supervising’ the bulldozer
as it pushed that road from the west end of the Boulder Springs Ranch out to
the deployment site…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = SPGS2 Darrell Willis
——————————————————
1143 Q1: Yeah. Um, so and you don’t know who actually took the dozer in that night?
1144
1145 A: I do.
1146
1147 Q1: Who was that?
1148
1149 A: Um, Dean – worked for Central.
1150
1151 Q: Marquez?
1152
1153 A: No. It was, um…
1154
1155 Q2: What was the name?
1156
1157 A: No that was – he was a division out there. He works for Central Yavapai.
1158
1159 Q1: Okay.
1160
1161 A: Dean Stewart.
1162
1163 Q1: Dean Stewart.
1164
1165 A: Works for Central Yavapai. He’s the dozer boss and they had flagged it in. I
1166 think him and a couple guys from the Prescott National Forest flagged in a
1167 dozer line.
1168
1169 Q1: Okay.
1170
1171 A: And they just pushed it up and then pushed the whole flat area where that flag
1172 is and stuff.
————————————————–
Followup…
Whoever transcribed Darrell Willis’ August ADOSH interview made a ‘spelling mistake’.
The Central Yavapai firefighter that Willis was ‘naming’ is “Dean Steward” ( with a ‘D’ on the end ) and NOT “Dean Stewart” ( with a ‘T’ ).
I had forgotten about that… and I was wrongly using the name ‘Dean Stewart’ myself up above.
But it really was “Dean Steward”. ( with a ‘D’ ).
WTKTT,
Thank you for clarifying about Dean Steward.
While Dean Stewart made have indeed been working the YHF, THIS resource order is for Stewart Dean Turner (FBAN), period.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive
( TTWARE ) post on January 2, 2017 at 9:28 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> While Dean Stewart made have indeed been
>> working the YHF, THIS resource order is for
>> Stewart Dean Turner (FBAN), period.
Well… as it turns out… I totally forgot that the NAME of this ‘friend’ of OPS1 Todd Abel’s who became the ‘dozer boss’ in Yarnell the night of June 30, 2013 was actually named ‘Dean Steward’ ( with a ‘D’ on the end ) and NOT ‘Dean Stewart’ ( with a ‘T’ on the end ).
Whoever transcribed Darrell Willis’ ADOSH testimony, when he identified Abel’s friend ‘Dean Steward’ ( from Central Yavapai Fire ) as the ‘Dozer Boss’ spelled it ‘Dean Stewart’ in the transcript instead of ‘Dean Steward’.
There is absolutely NO ‘Resource Record’ in the official documentation for this ‘Dean Steward’ guy.
So he is just like the infamous ‘Jason Clawson’ from the Prescott National Forest.
We KNOW he was there ( at the Yarnell Hill Fire ) and was heavily involved… but there is absolutely no ‘Resource Order’ for him.
Like he was never there at all.
Dean Steward’s PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page is here ( where his ‘Friends’ include Todd Abel, Tony Sciacca, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm, Sharon Knutson-Felix, Marty Cole, Amanda Marsh, Holly Neill, etc. )…
https://www.facebook.com/dean.steward.75
WTKTT,
You answered my question about the bulldozer—thank you for your help. I wondered if it arrived at the BSR prior to the burnover to assist in the “hail mary plan”. Now I know that it did not get there until after the burnover .
If Paul Morin rode out the burnover in the cab of the bulldozer or lowboy cab
he must have been traumatized.
Again, it appears that there are huge efforts to cover up the “hail Mary Plan” and related incidents on this fire.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on January 1, 2017 at 2:33 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> You answered my question about the bulldozer—thank
>> you for your help. I wondered if it arrived at the BSR
>> prior to the burnover to assist in the “hail mary plan”.
>> Now I know that it did not get there until after the
>> burnover .
Keep in mind that the PROBLEM here is that we still have NO IDEA where that bulldozer ( and operator Paul Morin ) ended up after it drove back down to the south end of the Sesame Clearing area ( with Blue Ridge Hotshot turned DOZB/HEQB Cory Ball hitching a ride ) to where BOTH the bulldozer loboy-trailer AND the Blue Ridge Chase Truck ( with their Polaris UTV trailer attached ) were located.
Cory Ball LEFT the ‘dozer’ when they reached that location at that large clearing just where the pavement for both Lakewood and Manzanita Drives comes to an end..
Cory Ball then departed that ‘dozer loboy-trailer staging area’ in the Blue Ridge Chase truck ( as he was told to do by his Blue Ridge boss ) and ‘evacuated’ that Chase Truck over to the Ranch House Restaurant where all the other Blue Ridge vehicles were headed right around that same time.
But we have NO IDEA if Cory Ball had instructed dozer operator Morin to “stay here… I’ll be right back” before departing that loboy staging area.
Cory Ball’s own Unit Log entries would ‘suggest’ that is what happened… since after he dropped the Chase Truck off at the Ranch House Retaurant he says he immediately “borrowed an ATV” in order get “back out to the dozer line” and continue with this ‘Hail Mary” emergency dozer-line ‘scouting’ that Gary Cordes had ordered him to do.
It wouldn’t make much sense for Ball to have hurriedly borrowed that ATV from the Yarnell Fire Department and have been hauling ass back out to where he last left the dozer unless he thought it was SUPPOSED to still be there, right?
One of the theories here is that Cory Ball HAD instructed Paul Morin to ‘wait for him’ out there at that staging area while he ran the Blue Ridge Chase Truck back to the RHR… but that Cory Ball was also assuming that by the time he got over to the RHR, the other Blue Ridge vehicles would already be there and his plan was to just ‘borrow’ the Blue Ridge UTV in order to get back out to the dozer and continue this “Hail Mary” scouting assignment Cordes had given him…
…but when Ball arrived at the RHR in the Blue Ridge Chase truck he discovered that the other Blue Ridge vehicles had NOT arrived there yet… and Ball now had no way to get ‘back out there’.
So that must have produced some moment in the RHR parking lot where Cory Ball was running around saying something like…
“Hey… anybody got an ATV I can borrow? I’m supposed to get right back out to where the dozer is and scout out some emergency dozer line out there!”.
Someone then ‘chimed in’ at that RHR parking lot and then said
“Yea… there’s an ATV doing nothing over at the Yarnell Fire Station.”
And then someone else ( or maybe the same person ) is the one who then drove Cory Ball over to the YFD so Ball could get ‘mobile’ and try to get back out to that dozer staging area.
But all of this took more time than Ball had planned on… and when he tried to get back to that dozer staging area out at the end of Lakewood and Manzanitia… he realized he could NOT.
It was too late to ‘get back there’.
And now Paul Morin has no radio… so Cory Ball could not even ascertain his whereabouts… which is why Paul Morin ended up on the actual ‘missing persons’ list for DPS Helicopter Ranger 58.
One of the additional ‘theories’ is that even if Ball had told Morin to STAY out there at that staging area and that he would “be right back” so they could continue with this “Hail Mary” scouting… that when Morin himself realized Ball was taking too long… he loaded up the dozer and got the hell OUT of there.
And again… Morin had no radio… so he couldn’t even radio Ball to tell him he was doing that ( getting the hell out of that area ).
So ( perhaps ) while Ball was being driven over to the YFD to get the ATV… Morin and the dozer trailer ‘exited’ the Glen Ilah area and drove north on Highway 89… and Ball just ‘missed that’ and really did think Morin was still ‘out there’ at that staging area.
Bottom line is that we still don’t have “all the facts” here.
All we have is Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s SIGNED TESTIMONY that he WAS told to do this “Hail Mary” dozer-line scouting… and that he WAS trying to do that as best he could… and then even he ended up having no idea where Paul Morin was and that’s why Morin’s name got added to the ‘missing persons’ list along with the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> If Paul Morin rode out the burnover in the cab of the
>> bulldozer or lowboy cab he must have been traumatized.
Not necessarily.
Take a look at the following YouTube video.
It was filmed from ‘inside’ a ‘safety zone’ clearing on the ‘Rim Fire’ while the fire ‘burned over’ ( and all around ) their location.
There are actually TWO bulldozer loboy trailers ( along with other fire vehicles ) sitting right here in this clearing as the fire ‘burned around them’. The tires did not explode or anything like that…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xW0eQ66PnY
The clearing at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita Drives ( where the dozer loboy was staged on June 30, 2013 ) is not AS big as the clearing in the video above… but it was a pretty good size clearing.
The BUILDINGS that were actually there in that same clearing where the dozer loboy was staged that Sunday survived the fire and didn’t appear to suffer much damage at all.
The area was surrounded by rocky mounds and it appears the fire ‘passed over’ that area pretty quickly and wihout dong much damage.
So if Paul Morin really had to ‘ride out the fire’ at that location ( because he was still sitting there waiting for Cory Ball to return and got ‘caught’ there )… it might have not been too bad for him.
Only Paul Morin can say how bad it was ( or wasn’t )… or if it even happened at all.
Lakewood and manzanita drive—wonder if this is the area where it was reported that there was damage to a wall leaving track marks similar to a bulldozer?
Reply to Diane lomas post on December 31, 2016 at 9:34 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Was air attack informed of Eric marsh’s observation at 3:42 p.m. that
>> the fire line had breached the large retardant line that had been laid
>> down earlier or did air attack assume that they could spend more time
>> in the peeples valley area because the retardant line would offer protection?
There is no ‘recorded’ radio transmission of Rory Collins ( the Air Attack over Yarnell until 3:58 PM ) being directly given this ‘news’ that the fire had now ‘crossed’ the massive retardant line laid by the previous Air Attack ( Bravo ‘3’ – Warbis and Lenmark )… but it is apparent from ‘other’ evidence that Rory Collins WAS perfectly aware of this fact in the 3:40 PM to 3:50 PM timeframe.
But it’s perfectly obvious ( from other evidence ) that Collins KNEW it.
Even though ADOSH was never able to ‘interview’ Air Attack Rory Collins, there are actually PHOTOS in the public evidence record that were obtained FROM him ( and supplied to BOTH the SAIT and ADOSH investigators ) that he took himself while flying the area in the 3:40 to 3:50 PM timeframe.
That ‘folder’ in InvestigativeMEDIA’s public Dropbox containing all the photos supplied by Air Attack Rory Collins that he took over Yarnell both Saturday AND Sunday is here…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABm0byZTHSeaZBY2TyiwJjya/Photos%20and%20Video/RoryCollins%20Photos?dl=0
Air Attack Rory Collins arrived back over the Yarnell fire on Sunday BEFORE this ‘massive retardant line’ that was being laid in place by Warbis and Lenmark was completed.
In the seventh and eight ‘row’ of photos ( down from the top of the page ), there are several photos that Rory Collins took of this massive retardant line still being ‘completed’.
His IMG_0282 of the VLAT ‘adding on’ to that retardant line was taken at 2:41:54 PM Sunday.
His IMG_0283 of the same ‘VLAT drop’ was taken 4 seconds later, at 2:41:58 PM
His IMG_0284 was taken 3 seconds later at 2:42:01 PM and shows the ‘completion’ of that ‘VLAT drop’ that was ‘adding on’ to that massive west-to-east retardant line out in that ‘bowl’.
So there is absolutely no doubt that ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins KNEW exactly WHERE this retardant line was ‘down there’ ( even though he isn’t the one who thought of it or started the operation ).
And just short of an hour after taking those photos of that massive retardant line being completed… Rory Collins himself also took a photo of the fireline ‘burning right through it’.
His photo IMG_0289 ( in that same folder at the link above ) was taken at exactly 3:39:51 on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From the EXIF metadata embedded in his IMG_0289 photo…
DateTime Original: 2013 06 30 15:39:51 ( 3:29:51 PM )
On January 9, 2015, I posted a PUBLIC Youtube video showing a ‘crossfade’ between this IMG_0289 photo that Rory Collins took at 3:29 PM on Sunday, and the actual Google Earth imagery that matches the photo… including the location of the Warbis/Lenmark retardant line.
That ‘crossfade’ is here on YouTube…
Video Title: Collins-1539-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LchaQ3C-wnw
Notice that in this 3:29 PM photo taken by Collins looking SOUTH at Yarnell that the fireline in the upper right corner of his photo is ALREADY beginning to ‘cross’ that massive retardant line and moving towards Yarnell itself.
So this was exactly what Air Attack Rory Collins could SEE ( for himself ) from the air ( and HE took that photo of exactly what HE was seeing at 3:29 PM )… and this was even a full 13 minutes BEFORE DIVSA Eric Marsh would be recorded ‘reporting’ on the radio that the fireline was now heading SOUTH… and towards Yarnell… and that it had already ‘crossed’ that Warbis/Lenmark retardant line.
And then, of course, just 8 minutes after Marsh reported the fire was now heading SOUTH, and “towards Yarnell” is when we have that Air-To-Air radio channel recording of Air Attack Rory Collins telling Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ pilot Thomas French…
——————————————————————————-
1550:36 / 3:50:36 PM
Air Attack Rory Collins: Bravo three three… Air Attack.
1550:38 / 3:50:38 PM
Bravo 33 – Thomas French: Go ahead Air Attack.
1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM
Air Attack Rory Collins: Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a
heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over
towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that…
1550:56 / 3:50:56 PM
Bravo 33 – Thomas French: Copy… we’re headed that way.
——————————————————————————–
There is also this, from the SAIT Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN ) document, as part of THEIR ‘interview’ with Air Attack Rory Collins.
NOTE: ADOSH was never able to ‘interview’ Rory Collins… but the SAIT was.
————————————————————————–
15:30
Experienced wind shift and the flank turned and became the head going SOUTH to Yarnell.
I let ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) know prior to the shift to move to that
side and start drops.
15:30 – 15:45
The fire was headed for Yarnell moving FAST to the SOUTH.
————————————————————————–
So even in Rory Collins interview… he CONFIRMS what is in that radio transmission that we can hear for ourselves… where he TELLS ‘Bravo 33’ to “move to the SOUTH side of the fire and START DROPS.
“I let ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) know prior to the shift to MOVE to that side and START drops.
But ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French ) did no such thing. Not for another 40 minutes AFTER being TOLD that ‘Yarnell’ was now the PRIORITY for ‘Air Support’.
Correction for above. I typed ‘3:29:51’ in some places where I should have typed ‘3:29:51′ instead.
The EXIF timestamp for Rory Collins’ IMG_0289 photo of the fireline beginning to burn through the retardant line is, in fact, 3:39:51 PM.
So the section above SHOULD have read like this…
———————————————————————–
His photo IMG_0289 ( in that same folder at the link above ) was taken at exactly 3:39:51 on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From the EXIF metadata embedded in his IMG_0289 photo…
DateTime Original: 2013 06 30 15:39:51 ( 3:39:51 PM )
————————————————————————
And then any other place where I typed 3:29 PM should have been the REAL photo time of 3:39 PM.
So Rory Collins took his IMG_0289 photo just THREE minutes before Eric Marsh would then be heard in a 3:42 PM radio recording telling someone ( we still don’t know WHO ) that the fireline had burned right through the Warbis/Lenmark retardant line.
With little to contribute I have been disengaged and watching the action from my “safety zone”. The recent conversation regarding the “hail mary pass ” has sparked my interest enough to reengage. So here goes. First, thank you WTKTT for your recent post showing that there was an assignment made to Cory Ball and another person to scout the line for an emergency dozer push. Under the existing fire/weather conditions it would be fairly obvious to WFF’s that a single blade dozer line would not stop the advancing angry fire from entering Yarnell and Glen Ilah. If the hail mary was going to work they would need a Hotshot crew to pull it off. IMHO the crew would have been utilized not to “improve” the one blade wide line but to fire from the line, thus increasing the width of the dozer push by removing available fuel and eventually meeting the main fire front. It has also been discussed that conditions were not ideal to support a firing operation – my opinion is it was their last ditch effort to steer the fire around Yarnell and Glen Ilah other wise there was no stopping it. Firing operations are complicated even under idea conditions, but in mid afternoon under the existing conditions timing for this type of hail mary plan would be critical, thus the need to have GM speed up if possible coming off the mountain. So again IMHO who ever made the request captured on the video knew the window to pull this off was closing and they needed the crew ASAP if it was going to work, As I have stated before I have no legitimate proof of this, its all my opinion based on the facts we do have (thanks WTKTT and others) and what I have experience in my career.
Rep;y to Norb Szczurek post on December 31, 2016 at 3:44 pm
>> Norb Szczurek
>>
>> So again IMHO who ever made the request captured on
>> the video ( the 3:27 PM Yarnell-Gamble video taken by
>> Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble ) knew the window
>> to pull this off was closing and they needed the crew
>> ASAP if it was going to work,
Exactly.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes has testified to ADOSH that he had absolutely no doubts that DIVSA Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were “headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch”… and he ALSO testified that he ALSO had absolutely no doubts that they had had ( quote ) “plenty of time to get there”.
Blue Ridge Hotshot turned DOZB/HEQB Cory Ball testified, in no uncertain terms, that it was ALSO Gary Cordes who ‘assigned’ ( sic: ordered ) him “and one other” to focus on ( perhaps ) putting an ’emergency dozer line’ in to the “southwest” of Yarnell ( as in… in the area where the Boulder Springs Ranch was ).
So it is actually possible that when SPGS1 Gary Cordes gave this ’emergency dozer line’ assignment to Cory Ball…Cordes could have been under the assumption that not only was DIVSA Eric Marsh ALREADY THERE in the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ area… but so was the entire Granite Mountain Hotshot crew.
The ‘one other’ that Cory Ball refers to in his ‘Unit Log’ COULD have actually been DIVSA Eric Marsh himself.
If Cordes either KNEW ( or was just ‘assuming’ ) that DIVSA Eric Marsh really WAS right there near the Boulder Springs Ranch somewhere then this is what his ‘assignment’ to Cory Ball could have actually sounded like…
WARNING: Some ‘Imagineering’ is about to take place. Buyer beware. We still don’t know exactly what was said to Cory Ball and ADOSH was unable to interview ANY of the Blue Ridge Hotshots. So when Cory Ball reports in his ‘Unit Log’ that he got this ‘assignment’ from Gary Cordes… we still have to just ‘imagine’ what that actually ‘sounded’ like over the radio…
*Maybe* it went something like this…
—————————————————————————
Gary Cordes:Dozer Boss Ball, Structure One Cordes. You there?
Cory Ball: Yep. I’m here. What’s up.
Gary Cordes: You still with the dozer?
Cory Ball: Yep. We’re headed to that staging are where the loboy is there at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita.
Gary Cordes: Copy that. Here’s what I need you to do. DIVSA Marsh has already come down from the anchor point and he’s over there near the Boulder Springs Ranch somewhere. The rest of Granite Mountain is following him off that ridge and they might already be over there, too. I need you to get with DIVSA Marsh and see if you can find ANY way to push a dozer line over there to the southwest of Yarnell, near that ranch, and then maybe fire it out to stop this fucking thing from just marching into Glen Ilah. Do you copy?
Cory Ball: I Copy… but be advised… Blue Ridge One ( Brian Frisby ) already told me that when Paul Morin and I get to that loboy staging area I have to run the Blue Ridge Chase truck with the UTV trailer the heck out of here and over to the Ranch House Restaurant where all the other Blue Ridge vehicles are now headed. So I’ll do that, then borrow an ATV and run right back out here and see if I can hook up with DIVSA Marsh.
Gary Cordes: Sounds like a plan.
—————————————————————————
At 4:27 PM… someone ( we still don’t know WHO ) contacts DIVSA Marsh directly and asks for ‘status’. Marsh is still somewhere near the Boulder Springs Ranch but he reports that ‘Granite Mountain’ has NOT arrived there yet. The person asking for ‘status’ now urges Marsh to get them to “hurry up” and Marsh’s reply is that they are “coming from the heel of the fire” and that is what is taking them so long.
At 4:28 PM… Cory Ball is only now arriving at the YFD to borrow the ATV. He heads right back out towards the dozer loboy staging area like he said he would… but only now discovers that the fire has CONTINUED to “outperform” everyone’s “expectations”… and Ball has lost the opportunity to even make it back to the loboy staging area.
Norb…the way I remember it, you were the first one to put the Hail Mary Plan forward that I bought into way back when and I haven’t changed my mind on that aspect yet. And yes…thank you for asking the question Diane and thank you WTKTT for answering it in detail to remind all of us where we are have been.
And yes…I agree with Norb one hundred percent that the job of Granite Mountain would have been to back fire from the dozer line. And for whatever it is worth…I agree with WTKTT that Marsh was either the author of the plan or the co-author of it.
Also as a reminder…I think it was the Woodsman who suggested the hunker down and stay safe order MAY have been in reference to hunkering down at the BSR and not on top? I don’t personally think that is the way it went down…but who knows, who knows?
Oh…and one more thing. Happy New Year to everyone!
And if anyone has been tracking the evolution of my thought process, I spent at least the first year defending Marsh by insisting that he must have been ordered by someone he could not say no to (Darrell Willis), to leave the black.
But that is when I only knew of the official reputation of Marsh and that is he was a squared away hotshot crew boss who valued the safety of his crew above else.
Of course I have learned the hard way that Marsh was anything but a crew boss like that and that he was in fact a very reckless leader who had the reputation of someone who played Russian Roulette routinely with not only his life, but the lives of his crew as well. I have said I pushed the envelope, but I never crossed that line.
The wildland firefighting profession is designed to reward the bold and punish the timid although wildfire can and does inflict the ultimate punishment on those who are too bold although that characteristic is also usually associated with other adjectives like…foolish, reckless, brazen, arrogant and full of hubris and sometimes just plain unlucky.
Most of those who died with Marsh were none of those things except unlucky enough to have leaders like Marsh and Steed. One area where my thinking has NOT changed is my ongoing disagreement with RTS that most of those who died did not have a choice on that fateful day, they were just cogs in an amped up supercharged wildland firefighting machine officially known as a hotshot crew.
Like most tragic events and.I refuse to say “accident”, because it wasn’t an accident, what happened was planned so it was an event (and that is just one reason why Marcia SHOULD prevail in her lawsuit if life was fair), the deaths on the YHF can’t be attributed to a single factor such as the crew leaders were too bold.
It was a series of factors that acted like falling dominoes that led to the ultimate end result. And sadly…if any one of those factors would have been removed from the equation…the YHF would be like tens of thousands of other wildfires, most of you would not even know that it happened.
Gary,
I am interested in your assessment of the factors that led to the hotshots deaths and how you believe it went down.
Whew…that is going to take a lot of review and writing, but I will try.
I still contend the GMHS all had choices that day, both individually and collectively, however, the very strong influence of GroupThink was frighteningly fatal.
The parallels to any and all decision-making, no matter the field, are cogently expressed in this paper about expert skiers killed in an avalanche..
“Goal Setting and Risk Perception: An Accident Analysis of the Tunnel Creek Avalanche”
http://www.sportgevity.com/article/goal-setting-and-risk-perception-accident-analysis-tunnel-creek-avalanche
“[Survivor] Megan Michelson expressed that ONCE THE PLAN …. WAS IN MOTION to ski Tunnel Creek and they actually left the back-country gate IT WAS DIFFICULT TO THINK OF REMOVING HERSELF FROM THE GROUP (Michelson, 2012). (EMPHASIS ADDED)
There occurred broken conversations of how to manage the run but not a full group conversation on how to do it safely (Branch, 2012). What Megan described is known as “group-think” which describes how groups come to a consensus too quickly and group members try to hang on to group membership that constrains critical thinking (Janis, 1972).”
Sounds a lot like the YH Fire on 30 June 2013!
Broken conversations on how to manage the run, difficulty in removing oneself from the group, coming to consensus too quickly, and group members trying to hang on to group membership, constraining critical thinking.
It’s safe to say that ALL of these took place in one form or another on the YH Fire as well as other fatal wildfires.
I keep thinking of poor John Percin, Jr.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was only the SECOND time he had ever been out on an ‘actual’ wildland fire.
Every alarm bell in his head might have been going off as they left the black… especially when he heard Jesse Steed himself expressing ‘reservations’ about the ‘move’… but this being only his ‘second’ fire ( ever )… he must have just accepted the fact that Steed wouldn’t endanger his life ( and everyone else’s ) just to keep his job situation.
He was wrong.
John Percin Jr.’s SECOND wildland fire became his LAST one.
Good point WTKTT.
And of course by “planned event”, I mean the crew was exactly WHERE they intended to be, exactly WHEN they planned to be there, doing exactly WHAT they were doing.
The same exact thing can be said for the Yarnell Hill Fire. So no one should have been surprised by what happened, because it was a planned event.
i’m wondering about the difference between saying “hunker down and be safe” and “hunker down,be safe and we will get air support as soon as possible”
Reply to diane Lomas post on January 2, 2017 at 10:27 am
>> diane Lomas said…
>>
>> i’m wondering about the difference between saying
>> “hunker down and be safe” and “hunker down,be safe
>> and we will get air support as soon as possible”
FWIW… OPS1 Todd Abel never said “hunker DOWN”
He also used the word ‘then’ between ‘hunker and be safe’ and THEN ‘we’ll get some air support down there ASAP’.
Here again is the transcript of that ‘Rovbert Caldwell’ video…
Video filename in the SAIT evidence folder:
Robert_Caldwell_IMG_0749_2389.MOV
The video is only 12 seconds long.
—————————————————————————
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO STARTS AT EXACTLY 1550:08 ( 3:50:08 PM )
+0:00 ( 1550:08 / 3:50:08 PM )
DIVSA – Eric Marsh – sounding frustrated and/or digusted ): …Yea… I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top.
+0:04 ( 1550:12 / 3:50:12 PM )
OPS1 – Todd Abel: Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated… ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah… we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO ENDS AT 1550:20 ( 3:50:20 PM )
——————————————————————
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 25, 2016 at 9:07 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Thanks for you reply and insight on the recuse issue.
The ‘conflict of interest’ question here when it comes to ‘Judges’ and what cases they should or should NOT be ‘sitting on the bench’ for is not as ‘clear cut’ as some might think.
It’s not nearly as ‘clear cut’ a ‘conflict of interest’, for example, as some head of state owning properties and having ‘business’ interests in countries that he is ‘making deals’ with, and quite possibly just making decisions that might further his ‘OWN’ and/or his ‘company’ and/or his ‘family members’ interests.
It is ‘assumed’ that Judges are ‘supposed’ to be capable of ‘sitting on the bench’ for multiple ‘related’ cases and still be able to render unbiased ‘opinons’.
But I actually believe the reason we have NOT seen a ‘written opinion’ yet in the Yarnell Property Damage consolidated lawsuits ( which had their ‘oral arguments’ quite some time ago ) is because these Arizona Division 1 Appeals Court Judges ( Peter Swann, etc. ) were/are VERY much aware that these ‘consolidated wrongful death’ lawsuits were ALSO ‘in the APPEAL hopper’… and they might be trying to just ‘coordinate’ the official ‘release’ of their opinions in BOTH of these ‘appeals’ ( which BOTH originated from the same lower court judge, Richard Gama ) so they ‘appear’ at the SAME TIME.
Since the cases ARE so ‘directly’ related’… and involve almost ‘identical’ legal issues… they ( the Appeals Court Judges ) might want to be sure they ‘sync up’ on their official ‘decisions’ so as not to ‘telegraph’ their thinking in either case, and to also face whatever ‘controversey’ might arise from their decisions in BOTH cases all at the same time.
But it’s still hard to say when that ‘time’ will be ( when they finally release their decision(s) in BOTH of these Yarnell cases ).
They really can’t ‘sit on it’ too much longer without getting into some real trouble.
They can’t ‘sandbag’ forever. There are LAWS about THAT, too.
Their decisions ( in BOTH cases ) are going to be ‘controversial’ either way, so they might as well ‘suck it up’ and get on with it and allow the ( most likely ) additional/further ‘appeals’ to get rolling.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
And ‘Happy Holiday Season’ right back atcha!
– Happy first day of Christmas ( 12 Days – Christmas Day until the evening of the 5th January – also known as Twelfth Night. )
– Happy second day of Hanukkah ( 8 days – Sunset, 24 December to nightfall, 1 January )
– Happy Kwanzaa eve ( 7 days – December 26 through January 1 )
…nó cuma cad a roghnaíonn tú chun ceiliúradh ag an am seo den bhliain
( or whatever you choose to celebrate at this time of year ).
Have a good one… then ( I suppose ) it’s back to what seems to have become the real challenge of our time.
Separating FACT from the FICTION that so many are now so willing to ‘put out’ at light speed solely in pursuit of their own ‘agendas’.
“A LIE can travel halfway around the world before the TRUTH even has a chance to put its boots on”
( Author unknown, but most often ‘attributed’ to Samuel Clemens ( Mark Twain ) )
The ‘modern’ update to that old quote, of course, in the new ‘Twitter’ world… is the distance traveled. The LIES can NOW go multiple times AROUND the entire ‘world’ before the TRUTH even has a chance to enter the picture.
My favorite day is the Winter Solstice and Shortest Day of the Year, December 21st!
http://earthsky.org/earth/everything-you-need-to-know-december-solstice
Here I go again about the retardant.
Yesterday I had a nice visit in Scottsdale with my daughter Melissa. She is very successful person–the kind of daughter that her father can be proud of. Joy, my daughter, and I went looking for some clothes for Joy–there was a black Santa in front of one of the stores–and I told him first I see a Santa as black as you. We all had a good laugh, since this guy was real. Joy stuffed a five in his pocket and said this if for you–a first–Santa gets a gift instead of giving one.
So on the trip home we stopped at the Dollar Store in Congress. Paula. who we know from Yarnell where she was staying for a time, tells us that there are nine people that have died in the past two weeks from Yarnell and Congress–so many on her block that she is afraid for her own health. Folks that is a lot of dead ones, two she knew of heart attacks and even her close neighbor Brenda has suffered two–the last one major.–this is like a horror movie only real. See, that smoke covered and hovered Congress as well as Yarnell. In fact when we came down through there and then Wickenburg, some 15 more miles south of Congress, the smoke was so bad even in Wickenburg that we did not want to hang around there and instead on that June 30, 3013 we decided to go on to Phoenix then proceeded from there back on I-17 back to Prescott.
So Joy had a personal conversation with Woody Grantham and some of it was about the retardant. If you google Woody Grantham you will see the huge dumps of retardant from his plane he has done in the past while working as a pilot for the FS dumps. When Joy mentioned the many deaths after the retardant dumps in Yarnell, he explained that new companies and new chemicals are involved. He said in the old days things were different–even the retardants used were different. And today we have no answer as to what the trade secret ingredients are in the retardant. Since those chemicals can range from 10 to 16% of the orange slop, they could be anything. Maybe we better start looking into this crap since the old time retardant was different to the new and the old one was being produced by American Companies while the new retardant producers are not even from this country.
I can’t help but remember how little China gave a shit when they killed our dogs and cats with antifreeze infested pet food. They did not care as long as they enjoyed the profits. How about people making profits off these new retardant formulas–do they have any interest in how many died at Yarnell and Congress or whether people get ill from their hidden chemical formulas? I seriously doubt that another country is going to concern itself with anything that might cause it to loose profits. This is the cigarette company attitude multiplied by being companies not even tied to the US. What forest’s does Israel have so that retardant dumps are necessary and would affect their people?
He said when he was working Prison Crews were not being used–a good question is when did that practice start or perhaps Woody was not aware as a pilot and they were being used. Maybe some of the wild land fire fighters would know that answer.
What we see are the new ways of firefighting- A look and maybe we need to bring some of the old wild land fire fighters forward–even some of their ways of doing things. Woody Grantham has some points there. Interestingly his brother is the rancher on whose ranch land the Tenderfoot Fire started.
Well…you might really be on to something. I didn’t know the new slurry was different than the old slurry. And I do remember China making the tainted pet food. China has very low standards for just about everything as we all know, except for taking American jobs and sending back junk …or much worse.
Oh…and one more thing. Gina (PEOTUS) doesn’t TAKE our jobs from America…we (corporate money whores) send them…there is a difference.
And it’s really too bad about the “new and improved slurry.” We used to really like to wallow in it. It was especially nice after it dried and the manure smell went away because our fire clothes would stay standing up by themselves they were so crusty even after we crawled into paper sleeping bags.
We never had any real problems per se…it caused a lot of male impotence and some women did grow thick black hair on their chests, but those things were not bad things in themselves during the fire season.
I did hear about hotshots in R-5 growing manginas, but I never actually saw one myself. So…that may just be urban legend, either that, or maybe a lot of R-5 hotshots were born with manginas?
Gary there were never any of the mangina types in underground mining–maybe in the open pit operations and definitely in the mill operations. But we need all types in this world–who after all is going to do the light jobs that are better managed by those types. Good lord I have trouble sewing on a button with my fumble hands but no problem fitting them to a shovel or pick handle. I would doubt you would find many of the manginas on the wild land fire fighting jobs, although if so, in a clandestine manner. So those you refer to in the FS might be clandestine as well. But merry Christmas to all, and no matter your sexual preference to me as long as you respect mine–which preference you should easily ascertain.
Our good town of Glen Isla is getting plenty rain–a blessing since it will wash away much of the chemicals we have been breathing for months. This world could live a lot better without the chemicals mostly manufactured off of oil and as long as the oil companies and retardant companies continue their malpractices we will suffer the consequences. This country being the greatest consumer of these chemicals is also the greatest sufferer of cancers, heart diseases and other diseases related to our chemical addictions.
I am seeing that Trump wants to improve roads–what about producing more solar and wind power? No mention of getting away from oil derivatives toward things that will better the air, not taint the soils and influence people’s health.
`Some here have been good guinea pigs for the betterment of mankind. Heroes they are without knowing it–and thanks to your chemical dumping companies and their experiments the locals have proven that these chemical dumps of ammonium compounds mixed with iron oxide, clays we hope are not the usual asbestos infested types (many clays do have asbestos fibers) and we hope those used by foreign country have been tested), and the other 10-16% chemical concoction are eventually required to be known to public sources. That knowledge should be known, not trade secret not more than a child that eats the stuff should he get ill, only the doctor can know the substance he injested so the doctor may give remedy.
We allow common sense to override the ability of big companies to contaminate our environments–a shame to our polictical and judicial system. Anytime a company involves chemicals in substances we breath and come into contact with then that company needs to be held responsible–but if you are using asbestos laden clays or it can be shown that you make cyanide by running ammonia compounds over burning embers, then the results to health need to be compensated for those affected.
I like Israelis better than their adversaries. However, either side is after profits and all big business anywhere is prone to overlook health problems caused by their products when it cuts into profits. Big government agencies are easy to convince that these products are fine to dump in your back yard, but you can bet they and especially their wives concerned about their children will greatly object to. These FS agents upholding this chemical concoctions spread in our back yards are also FS agents beholding–but not to the common citizen paying their wage–but to the big business touting thier products.
But as in most corruption, you will find the most up at and near the top rung of the ladder. As Nixon would say, I knew nothing about what was going on. If Putin unintentionally exposed Hillary’s actions–for example arranging to use foundation funds for her own election benefits–then Putin has some recognition coming for his efforts. You can bet the next Secretary of State will be much more careful. Maybe someone can hack into the retardant company emails–would be nice to be a fly on the wall there if you did not mind being sprayed with retardant.
The real heroes of the 19 were the men swinging the Pulaski’s that day. They were doing the line to try to slow an advancing fire–following their obedience to strictly take orders–orders they fulfilled in a laborious manner.
Little did they know the careless actions of their bosses were about to needlessly take their lives. I wonder if I had been on that crew would I have been able to say as I did to Joy, hell no, we are not going down into that basin where death would be certain with only a change of wind–that being inevitable seeing that thunderstorms are in the NE with 106 degree bearing down on us at the present position on the two track above the death basin.
Could I have been the one rebel to say hell no–I did in the underground mining situation at the Ward mine where 7 other miners went back into a deadly situation where they were caught trapped inside the mine. That cost my job but I always knew in mining there was another job up the line–and I was back to work withing the week at Mt. Hope–mining Zinc ore there but at least not trapped or in the middle of a rock pile in a tunnel some quarter mile back in.
But in the military situation of being a wild land fire fighter–agree to strictly take orders even when you know you are headed into a deathly situation? How can this happen. Common sense tells me the leaders there were dunces when it came to protecting their men. They put their own interests above the safety of their men. I can pin no badge of honor on those bosses–nor any badges of honor on those that managed the Yarnell Wild Fire that has killed so many and those that allowed this small lightening fire to balloon into a full fledged killer fire–I recommend the badge of dishonor.
Well…God Bless you Sonny and all of God’s children on the eve of our dear Savior’s birth! Except for the top 1% of course, many of whom are now in PEOTUS Trump’s Cabinet.
I am a lot like you Sonny, I love all people which includes all current and former WF, even those who disagree with me or think I should keep my big fat pie hole shut, R-5 hotshots who have manginas, whether they were born with them or they developed them as a result of too many slurry facials, except for those who would harm me or someone else and the top 1%, which includes PEOTUS Trump and his Cabinet (except for the Generals and Nikki Haley).
I didn’t even ask Santa for any Sigs this year, I only ask for World Peace…through superior firepower of course. Because well, you know…better weapons bring better peace.
Now…I do want to remind you and everyone else, there have ONLY been three documented times since hotshots were created (in 1946 or 1947) in Southern California, which is the cradle of hotshot civilization (that is of course….gulp…R-5) that hotshot leaders did not put the welfare of their crews above their own personal and professional self interests. And those three times (need I list them again?) were on the Loop Fire of 1966, the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 and the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.
So…that is a PRETTY good record overall (other than that Mrs. Lincoln…how was the play?)…right? Other than that, I want to wish EVERYONE a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays…whichever way you roll, except for those exceptions previously listed in the preceding paragraphs! God Bless America!
Whoops…meant to post this link for those inquiring minds who want to know…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interagency_hotshot_crew#History
I think I should have specified and given a shout out to the very special Cleveland and the Angeles National Forests for being the cradle of hotshot civilization, which of course is the ole hotshot stomping grounds of my dear friend Bob Powers, who played a key role in building the house that I inherited and whose shoulders I stood upon (yikes).
So…I want to wish the Bob and Bob (AKA RTS or Fred), who also got the start to his legendary career on the Angeles NF, Arroyo Seco District…a very special Merry Christmas! You know, because…well…blood is thicker than water.
And whenever you guys want to break down and tell me the rest of the story…I am all ears. The only thing is, I still can’t promise I won’t write all about it on this blog…I can only promise confidentiality to you or anyone else who wants to enlighten yours truly because well…it is the season of giving…right?
Although can you believe this? I mean…really!
I have said several times on this blog how quickly people forget. And this is now the hotshot fatal accident history on the repository for all of mankind’s knowledge that is most commonly used by the common person, which is of course Wikipedia.
I mean…how frickin hard would it be to get this part right?
Maybe I should edit it instead of just bitchin’ (non-gender specific) about it? They completely leave out the deaths of the El Cariso and Mormon Lake Hotshots!
“Fatal Accidents[edit]
On July 5, 1994, nine members of a hotshot crew based in Prineville, Oregon, died after being overtaken by the fast-moving Storm King fire west of Glenwood Springs, Colorado. Five other firefighters, three smokejumpers and two helitack firefighters, also died in the conflagration.[12]
On June 30, 2013, the Prescott Fire Department’s hotshot crew perished in the Yarnell Hill Fire near Yarnell, Arizona. Nineteen of the twenty members of the crew were killed when their escape route was cut off by an approaching fire, all nineteen entrapped members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots deployed their fire shelters.[13]”
Oh…and one more thing. As usual…they identify the fire on which the Prineville Hotshots died on as the Storm King Fire.
And as all of you know by now…it was the SOUTH CANYON Fire…on Storm King Mountain.
I am really starting to doubt the veracity of Wikipedia!
Merry Christmas, Ye Olde Codger Yet Magnificent Bastard! Merry Christmas, friend.
Woodsman
And Merry Christmas to you as well Woodsman! HO HO HO…maybe I had better lay off my bottle of holiday cheer? I hope Santa brings you more than a trump…I mean a clump…of coal!
Oh..and one more thing. I do want to send out a very special Merry Christmas to Joy!
Even though I already sent her one by private email, because she always is so harsh with me and gets so snippy whenever I mention Sonny and don’t mention her as well.
If it were not for you Gary, I doubt much would be considered about the deaths of the 19. It was a pittance given to the loved ones of $50,000 if that was all that was given by the state. I am one of the loved ones did not take the settlement and went forward. I doubt there will be any recompense for her but I applaud her for her efforts. I certainly believe that all the loved ones deserved payment evenly. It was not Marsh’s fault to be there –he was appointed by someone’s error. He certainly was ignorant in his actions and had he lived would have had repercussions for his actions that killed the men. These are things you and even RTS and Bob Powers have notified us about–and of course you are only the top of the list of the many retired wild land fire fighting bosses that pointed out how he carelessly acted against all good reason. Provencio and RTS had early warned about his actions, but the men in positions to listen did not and went on with the risk taking boss until he ended so many lives. Those men did not deserve to die nor bosses so prone to risk their lives. And it comes down to if you fellows did not point this out, then these habits of allowing dangerous bosses to continue in their ways will not be addressed. The bitter truth can only improve the system and save lives. So in my book you are all heroes in standing up for he truth==and that will be proven despite the many that continue to keep their heads in the sand.
We are having a beautiful white Christmas here. The rain turned to snow and now I am eating snow ice cream with a little Southern Comfort added for flavor. It helps with the Christmas spirit–maybe calm the heart enough I will keep smiling for some time. Good lord of the Irish, what is the Guinness records on heart attacks. Seven is enough for this year–and I am one that damn sure is not trying to make a record of them. So we keep on keeping on because there is plenty left to do–and maybe it will be some value.
And another thing, I have never had a heart attack after a few drinks. The attacks were just outside a cardiologist office or early in the morning when I had not had a good stiff drink for a week or so. So a good Southern Comfort mix is a good blood thinner. And for a good formula for SC ice cream–a couple shots of SC in a big bowl of snow, add liquid canned milk if you have it–I am using dry milk to taste with some fresh milk added–the SC helps melt the snow–add a couple tablespoons of brown sugar and if you like a little egg nog. And perhaps a bit of cinnamon. It will all be good however you make it as long as you have two fingers or so of SC added. Some like vanilla added–but the SC suffices for me. It is after all the time of the year for good cheer.
My daughter and husband came up this evening but since her husband does not drive went home early==we had a blanket of snow coming down and despite her having a fancy land rover with automatic 4×4 she was afraid going back down the mountain in the snow. They made it back to Phoenix OK but told me she passed a bad wreck with two overturned cars–they met heavy rain once down near Wickenburg.
She left a large package for Leo–that old Mexican fellow broken down that lives near the tracks in Aguila. Joy and I had offered him a place to stay either on my five acres out of Aguila or the cabin in Yarnell. I however understand that he was quite happy in Aguila==undoubtedly he did find shelter during the rain there. Well he has a nice package now and a good bottle of wine with it–I don’t know what else, but knowing my daughter beside the food there will be some money there. Old Santa did not forget that Mexican after all and if we find him I will try to get his smile on camera and send it to my daughter.
Good tidings–especially to all those that contribute or read the IM. If you are doing either it means you are certainly concerned for the wild land fire fighter –those heroes that deserve the best yet too much overlooked.
If I were Mr. Trump, the billionaire, the first thing I would do would be doubling wages to every wild land fire fighter and being sure that should he die his loved ones–wife and children were taken care of starting with at least 250 grand with lifetime benefits for wife and scholarships for all the children.
It is almost a new year and I am looking forward to the challenges of doing another one. Merry Christmas to all-may the Irish Gods grant you great blessings–like my own–for your year and years ahead.
Yes there are some strange things in this world. Sometimes people do not report them for various reasons–well for instance it used to be the inquisition–that has been throttled down some these days, but then photographs do not lie.
Well even those today with certain individuals who are able to make a photo tell a lie. But Joy’s photos of the fire did not lie and she does not use the various tricks that photographers can use to make deception.
It is said that the government is ahead of us by 50 years with their knowledge of technology. NASA is a branch of the military and definitely any science that is found will be withheld if it is decided by the Honcho in charge that the info need be classified.
But Joy’s photos do not need to be classified–perhaps. When me met some 8 years ago I pointed out some UFO’s about Dolan Springs. Dolan was known for UFO sightings. Joy being the one to verify these things photographed these things–lights in the night unexplained. Well one of here photos shows a green laser shooting to the ground. Another when blown up some shows several small lights surrounding the larger light. Another identifies an object with doors. See these are real–whether it is the Irish Gods visiting or just your NASA fellows and area 51 doing their thing with their trade secrets we have no clue.
I do know the military is much in command when it comes to forest fires and their management. This came about from the wars and their need to protect the country–Japan was floating incendiary devices over and that gave the Military control and direct input into Forestry problems. Maybe why the wild land fire crews are based upon a military model.
There are many things we are unaware of–even perhaps Hillary–a good thing in her case if dealing with national security. But then we could classify controlled and uncontrolled burns as prescribed as classified information under military restrictive rules and based upon national security agenda.
That would allow the NASA satellite images as restricted and redacted under those rules. But we have Putin and his satellites not restricted by the rules of US Military. Will he give us a look at those to know what really is going on with these fires? He might just to needle us. But then it would be nice for NASA to be straight with us since Putin and likely the Chinese Reds already have the images that NASA purports to be confidential.
Wouldn’t those images really give us a true view of what went on during every death fire? These are the things we ought to be shown considering those fires cost so many lives. I won’t hold my breath for the redacted images since under military scrutiny much can be with held.
However Joy’s images of these UFO lasers is real but what they mean or whether they belong to the Irish Gods, the US Military, Russian Military or other sources I do not know.
But I do know do not believe your propaganda. It is likely another need to know and classified–national safety that we do not know the truth.
Are we the most honest government in the world. Well look at our leaders if you want an answer. Trump called Hillary a liar. He was not wrong, but what about Trump?
The only error you might make Gary is not to publish your book. Your expertise in matters of fire fighting are necessary for the education of young fire fighters. What you have said here will surely save lives and once in book form ought to be a required reading for every new wild land fire fighter.
You have the knowledge, wisdom and language to encourage the young ones to charge forward in a way that will keep them alive. Accidents do not really happen–it is the fuck ups that causes the deaths and those fuck ups are what you address in proper lingo.
Thanks for your input–I stand corrected at times myself, but then I have an excuse–not being a wild land fire fighter–but I am grateful for your posts. I have learned so much from them and if it were not for loving mining, I likely would have been right there with the wild land fire fighter.
My concerns are because I lost a young son for similar reasons the 17 died. The boss neglected to do keep watch over things. Of course my son was tied up in a boat winch so that his arm was dislodged from his body. The nerves were severed so that the arm atrophied and never had feeling, but eventually death came from the prescribed medications he was using to be able to stand the excruciating pain. It was change of doctor and medications that killed him–but all that was due to some boss not replacing a safety device when he knew it was faulty and could take a life. I do not know what would be more painful–having your arm torn from your body or the excruciating burns a wild land fire fighter can get.
So we do hope you continue with your pursuit of getting the truth and facts out that will help the young ones stay alive.
I certainly have a distrust of big business. They are in these contracts for money and the bigger the contract the better they come out financially. Their stock holders are happy for dividends. It adds up to working around health issues, etc. It is sad when money overrides the value of human life. I am thoroughly convinced after much study on the retardant and knowing the skewed death count in Yarnell that the retardant is deadly to those already compromised in health. It is like taking an old man ill in health and putting him in a gas chamber with weak deadly gas. The young man might survive but the old one will die for certain.
The only error you might make Gary is not to publish your book. Your expertise in matters of fire fighting are necessary for the education of young fire fighters. What you have said here will surely save lives and once in book form ought to be a required reading for every new wild land fire fighter.
You have the knowledge, wisdom and language to encourage the young ones to charge forward in a way that will keep them alive. Accidents do not really happen–it is the fuck ups that causes the deaths and those fuck ups are what you address in proper lingo.
Thanks for your input–I stand corrected at times myself, but then I have an excuse–not being a wild land fire fighter–but I am grateful for your posts. I have learned so much from them and if it were not for loving mining, I likely would have been right there with the wild land fire fighter.
My concerns are because I lost a young son for similar reasons the 17 died. The boss neglected to do keep watch over things. Of course my son was tied up in a boat winch so that his arm was dislodged from his body. The nerves were severed so that the arm atrophied and never had feeling, but eventually death came from the prescribed medications he was using to be able to stand the excruciating pain. It was change of doctor and medications that killed him–but all that was due to some boss not replacing a safety device when he knew it was faulty and could take a life. I do not know what would be more painful–having your arm torn from your body or the excruciating burns a wild land fire fighter can get.
So we do hope you continue with your pursuit of getting the truth and facts out that will help the young ones stay alive.
I certainly have a distrust of big business. They are in these contracts for money and the bigger the contract the better they come out financially. Their stock holders are happy for dividends. It adds up to working around health issues, etc. It is sad when money overrides the value of human life. I am thoroughly convinced after much study on the retardant and knowing the skewed death count in Yarnell that the retardant is deadly to those already compromised in health. It is like taking an old man ill in health and putting him in a gas chamber with weak deadly gas. The young man might survive but the old one will die for certain.
Thank you Sonny, I am trying.
New update on the death count here in Yarnell. Joy and I went to the American Legion today for their taco Tuesday event–every Tuesday from 5pm until about 6.
We are both members of that organization, but you do not have to be a member to get tacos and enjoy a meal there and socialize when they serve meals. Otherwise if you are not a member, grab a member and you can go in anytime for visits.
The first death I will talk about is Brent Yadon. He was looking into the trade secret ingredients for the retardant for us. Brent and I shared birthdays same day of December. He was into egineering and quite intelligent. He was not sick before the fire and some time after started going downhill. He was 57 years and died on Christmas Day in the veterans hospital in Prescott. Sad news to learn at the Legion this afternoon.
The next death is Stevie. We don’t know her age and not really acquainted with her. Jeff’s mother is next. Kathy Hunter Grover informed us there were 5 deaths in the past few days, but she did not have the names of the other two.
Bob Kramer was on national news during the Yarnell Wildfire–his home right on 89, about a quarter mile north of the Ranch House Cafe, was shown as it burned to the ground. Bob was left with nothing but the jeep he was driving. He is now barely hanging on to life. His home was doused with retardant in the Tenderfoot Fire ordeal.
These are the kinds of facts that the retardant companies and the FS honchos do not want you to know. But I will keep on the watch–well have Joy help me on this as long as I can hold on. We know that every heart attack weakens the heart that much more. I am now beginning to feel the effects of the last one as I was trying to do what should have been an easy thing for me today. Even rounding up my dogs can be taxing. Can I lay my malaise to the retardant? How about Joy who is now visiting a cardiologist and now finding herself limited in her activities? She is a young age at 44.
We may never go beyond educating people of the dangers of putting ammonium sulphates and nitrates onto burning embers–that creates cyanide. But would it not be wonderful to know also what clays are being used since many clays contain asbestos fibers. Also is it not wise to know that ammonia gas given off by the retardant kills lung cells which never regenerate–so do not be a smoker since you will reduce your smoking life. And no I am not against smoking or even bathing in that agent orange retardant if you like–you can even smoke it for all I care if that is what you want to do. To me as an American, you ought to be able to poison yourself if you are so inclined, but keep that shit off my yard and at least be honest with the public as to what that retardant is, including the hidden chemicals that people who distribute them are so inclined to keep secret.
It is certainly sad when chemicals can be spread upon a population and yet what they are and their effects upon health can be hidden under so called “Trade Secret Laws”. How many different chemicals are they dousing us with beside the already poisonous ammonia compounds, red iron oxide powders, triolite particles from the clay dust along with possible asbestos fibers in that clay. Nothing in that retardant seems to me to be suitable for human contact and it certainly is an aquatic life killer.
I suspect the death count will soon be over 150 since it is already approaching that number since the Yarnell fire, and now we are seeing an escalation in the effects since the hundreds of thousands of gallons more of that shit due to the burn out the local fire department made during the Tenderfoot Fire. Are our heroes killing us without knowing what their actions have done?
A tribute to Brent Yadon–He was compromised in his health being a quadriplegic from a traffic accident. We shared the same birth day and both of Irish descent. Brent was much younger at 57 but had the spirit of the fighting Irish. He was in good health though in that wheel chair from a spinal injury in a car roll over. He was one forward looking and not inclined to give up. Yet after the last retardant dump very close to his residence Joy and I began to notice a deterioration in his health. A few weeks ago he was admitted into the hospital and we just learned yesterday of his death.
It takes no wild land fire fighter to know that the burn out was not at all necessary on the Tenderfoot Fire. But it brought in thousands of gallons of retardant on the east side of Yarnell and Brent lives within a quarter mile of those dumps. That made lots of money for someone in that business. But Bob Cramer lives right adjoining he retardant dumps–it is in his back yard. He has since the dump now been admitted to the hospital–and because his medicare is not covering the hospice thing he is at home with a caregiver. Keep that god damned shit out of our towns and away from the old people–it is killing folks that can not handle its poisonous effects.
We are grateful now for the good rains and snows of the past few days. It will dilute the chemicals and perhaps the fresh air on Mountainaire drive will return. Maybe old Sonny will recover from the seventh heart attack since the Yarnell fire–maybe I already have beat the odds. So I can smile since November was my prediction by the good doctors of my own demise. What the hell, the New Year about to show up and those good Irish Gods and Goddesses are waiting for me to join them. But they will just have to wait a bit longer–I am like Brent–in there till I can’t be in there with the best until the end.
I am having an egg nog and Crown Royal for Jesus and the Irish Gods and Goddesses. If you ever noticed on the movie where there was a rapture, the only ones left included the preacher. Old Jesus and company passed on that fellow.. Remember Peter whacked off the ear of some ass hole and according to scripture Peter was tops with Jesus. Well the Pope likes him too.
People say life is what you make it. To some degree that is true, but then the gods made DNA so that some are fuck ups no matter what they do. Nothing you can do in those situations.
Charlie,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the retardant as well as how it has and is affecting citizens of Yarnell.
“Are our heroes killing us without realizing what they have done”
Does this refer to the retardant?
Dianne, Yes that is what is happening–you see most of the people involved with retardants are brain washed into believing the substance is inert concerning human health. They do admit it kills fish since the accidental dumps in the However there incidents where only 2000 gallons accidentally dropped in the Fall River of Oregon that quickly killed all the fish along a four mile stretch–some 20,000 fish in 2002 died there.
Here is a quotation from Dr. Weil, MD: “An air tanker fighting a wildfire in central Oregon accidentally dumped as much as 2,000 gallons of flame retardant into Fall River, killing nearly all of the fish along a four-mile stretch.
The chemicals also reached the Deschutes River above the central Oregon town of Sunriver.
“The water just went from crystal clear to opaque red,” said Steve Avery, a fisherman who was on the Fall River when the retardant flowed downstream Thursday afternoon. “We saw dead fish, everything from 8-inch hatchery red-sides to 24-inch brown trout. It was just awful.” as told by fishermen along the banks while the river turned blood red.
Here is a quote from a 2014 article about retardants as put out on the Dr. Andrew Weil, MD, blog when asked if retardants are poisonous:
“An air tanker fighting a wildfire in central Oregon accidentally dumped as much as 2,000 gallons of flame retardant into Fall River, killing nearly all of the fish along a four-mile stretch.
The chemicals also reached the Deschutes River above the central Oregon town of Sunriver.
“The water just went from crystal clear to opaque red,” said Steve Avery, a fisherman who was on the Fall River when the retardant flowed downstream Thursday afternoon. “We saw dead fish, everything from 8-inch hatchery red-sides to 24-inch brown trout. It was just awful”.
Here is a 2014 updated article from Dr. Weil, MD, Blog: “Flame retardants do appear to present a threat to health, and may potentially do more harm than good in a fire. A British study presented at the March 2012 national meeting of the American Chemical Society (ACS) showed that flame retardants increase the danger of invisible toxic gases, the leading cause of death in fires. The study found that today’s most widely used products contain the hazardous chemical element bromine, and that they actually increase amounts of carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide released during fires.” The complete article can be googled and mentions long term effects and chemicals in the retardant that are finding their way into the soil , rivers, lakes and drinking water. Some of those chemicals are similar to the DDT that people used to spray crops and are permanent pollutants that eventually help increase the cancer rate long term.
The hydrogen cyanide gas produced in concentrated form might be still used to put criminals to death. The cyanides produced by dropping the retardant on embers is left behind are another deadly pollutant. Bromine is another concern to health and I suspect it is one of the hidden ingredients where the companies can hide it under their so called trade secret laws.
Anyhow when you read about 20000 fish being killed with only 2000 gallons then I look at our Yarnell dumps of about 500,000 gallons and I have no wonder about the health problems and death toll that have so greatly escalated since the fire. I too wonder how much of this will leach into the water supplies of the area since many of those chemicals produced do not break down but continue into the water tables of the area.
As for the retardant effects you can find many medical practitioners that know about the problems the chemicals can cause. Dr. Mercola, Osteopathic Physician, writes: ”
In fact, flame retardant chemicals have been identified as one of 17 “high priority” chemical groups that should be avoided to reduce breast cancer.3,4 These chemicals are also poisoning both pets and wildlife, according to recent tests. Yet, despite their wide-ranging health risks, they continue being used—ostensibly because they save lives in case of fire. But is the accumulated cost to human and environmental health really worth it?”
When the medical profession writes articles like this then you can believe this retardant is not safe for humans, pets, fish or the environment.
Then you go to the articles written by FS people and among wild land fire fighter elite who question the use of retardant and its effectiveness. Dr. Ted Putnam put me wise to that and said that fire retardant generally only slows a fire. Well common sense when you have winds of 40mph then that retardant is a futile effort as it was in Yarnell to save anything. But obviously the bill to drop this pollutant runs into the millions even for the dumps made during the Yarnell Hill and Tenderfoot fires.
Anyone who says this orange stuff is safe has not studied the facts from knowledgeable people. One thing now though if the politicos do stand up and take notice of how many have died after the Yarnell and tenderfoot fires the will perhaps take action to keep that shit far away from humans. Here the only justification I could have seen using retardant would be to have dumped loads around the 19, although it is doubtful that even there it would have done any good. I believe water would have been better–maybe something the wild land fire fighters can weigh in on.
My opinion is at this point that the only good this retardant is doing is to keep the corporate fellows pocket books fat while they deny the dangers of its use.
Apologize for the mistakes in the above: Should have re read it before–Idea is that DR. Weil and Dr. Mercado are just a couple of the many that tell us the truth about the retardant and its effects on health.
I am not happy with the Tenderfoot ordeal after we were already doused with over 200 thousands of gallons of that orange retardant during the Yarnell fire. That back burn or burn out was absolutely unnessary and actually caused the need to drop hundreds of thousands of gallons to fix the burnout that was needlessly put in place. There are plenty of bunglers in the wild land fire fighting business. The deaths of the 19 accent that statement–and I see now that many things in wild land fire fighting need to be addressed and changed.
Thanks for your curiosity and questions Dianne–they ought to help spur some of these educated fire gods that things need to be done to greatly reduce wild land fire fatalities and to keep that agent orange look alike retardant off our citizens and out of their yards.
The Yarnell dumps did no good to save Yarnell but they have certainly made guinea pigs out of the population and reduced it by what is now approaching a third of the population since the Yarnell and now Tenderfoot hundreds of thousands of gallons of poisons sloshed right into our very yards.
I have a filter both on my kitchen sink and on my shower. I did look at the water pollutants when I came here–Well Joy got the list for me. Of course the ppm of poisons are there but under Federal Standards and with the poisonous chlorine added this water locally is said to be safe to drink. Well I just changed the filters that have been there for a while and they are now gray in color–exactly the same color of a lead bullet. So that grey matter, likely lead, antimony and other grey heavy metals would be situated in my body had I not put those filters in. I will change them sooner since I see the chemicals are there in greater concentrations than the paper I have wants me to believe.
Reply to Charlie post on
December 29, 2016 at 12:33 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Dianne, Yes that is what is happening–you see
>> most of the people involved with retardants
>> are brain washed into believing the substance
>> is inert concerning human health.
And despite all its denials that there anything ‘unsafe’ in the ( still not fully known ) list of ‘chemicals’ included in most aerially applied fire retardants… the United States Forest Service still actively maintains it’s own HUGE list of ‘Avoidance Areas’ where the shit is NEVER supposed to be ‘dropped’.
The United States Forest Service ( USFS ), at taxpayer expense, maintains its own PUBLIC, interactive MAPPING tool online which shows exactly there the THOUSANDS of designated “do NOT drop retardant here” zones are across the United States.
That ‘interactive’ “do NOT drop retardant here” MAP is here…
USFS Aerial Fire Retardant Avoidance Map Viewer
http://usfs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=53c2f30ed89f429b93f2e09dc3336ad0
From the ‘info’ box that appears when this interactive viewer first loads…
——————————————————
Welcome to the USDA Forest Service’s
Aerial Fire Retardant Avoidance Viewer
This webpage displays the most current ( aerial retardant drop zone avoidance area ) information, valid as of April, 2016.
TEPCS avoidance information is shown at all scales, while hydrographic avoidance is shown when zoomed.
For additional information, please see the “USFS Wildland Chemicals Home Page” ( clickable link ).
Authoritative georeferenced Aerial Fire Retardant Avoidance maps may be found at the “NIFC ftp Server” ( clickable link ).
Please contact Tim Love at tblove (at) fs.fed.us for any questions or concerns.
——————————————————–
So if the shit is ‘supposedly’ PERFECTLY SAFE… WHY does this official ‘Drop Zone Avoidance Area’ project ( paid for with taxpayer dollars, of course ) even exist?
Charlie,
Thank you for the information about Woody Grantham. I googled him and read some of the news articles about him.
I thought it was interesting that he felt more could have been done for the hotshots from air attack based on his experience.
Correction–meant to say Mrs McKee that did not take a settlement deserves much credit there.
Reply to Charliec post on December 24, 2016 at 11:04 pm
>> Chaliec said….
>>
>> Correction–meant to say Mrs McKee that did not take a settlement
>> deserves much credit there.
She certainly does.
Maybe one day soon… HER ‘complete’ story will be told… including the abuse she has had to suffer at the hands of the Prescott Fire Department, the’Fire Gods’ in general… and this infamous ‘Arizona 100 Club’. ( Sic: Sharon Kutson-Felix ).
All she has ever wanted to know is the ‘whole truth’ ( as much as it is possible to know ) about why her best friend and only son ( Grant McKee ) had to die a horrible, needless death on June 30, 2013… and she has been treated like a pariah for it.
Correction… the infamous ‘leader’ of this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ who was forced to RESIGN over the controversy regarding how she was ‘doling out’ the PUBLIC donations after the Yarnell tragedy is/was ‘Sharon Knutson-Felix’ ( not Kutson-Felix ).
Dianne –Very good tidings to you as well–I especially like your questions and the replies you get–You think of some things and point out a lot of others we tend to skip or minimize. Thanks for your participation.
It is a small world. Joy ran into RTS at the McKee hearing. She said he was a big guy much alike her Dad. Joy’s Dad was 6’9″ and weiged in around 300. I was not there so don’t know what that was all about.
human health risk assessment of wildland fire … – US Forest Service
If you google this site you will find a study put out by the FS on risk posed to wild land fire fighters and others exposed to retardant. One is classed as a pretty potent substance and loaders and transporters of that particular formula are at a higher risk. No mention of the chemicals except the nitrates are listed.
FS advises that if retardant falls on your garden you are advised not to consume produce from that garden. The suggestion is that the garden will have high nitrate content but they do not mention what other chemicals it will have. Babies with a certain problem involving oxygen shortage in the blood are subject to high danger if they consume these high nitrate levels. The lungs are compromised so even less oxygen gets to the blood.
The study gives us enough information to know that retardant certainly is not great for human consumption or even contact. The FS even warns you not to consume things like wild berries or mushrooms where retardant has landed.
Well hoopty doo–how about a real life FS supported study of the guinea pigs of Yarnell–there is enough sickness here along with the death count of nearly one third of the population already dead after the hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant dropped in succession with the Yarnell and Tenderfoot fires. Talk about a horror movie even more dramatic than the 19 killed, how about a movie on the experiment of Yarnell that killed a third of our population in less than 5 years. As if the first round of deadly pollutants was not enough, the second round had to be layered on.
Bromine is a constituent of fire retardant–likely one of the hidden chemicals in FS fire retardants. It certainly is in home retardants but then we will not know the trade secret amounts. Here is a bit of interesting information on Bromine —
Health effects of bromine. Bromine is corrosive to human tissue in a liquid state and its vapors irritate eyes and throat. Bromine vapors are very toxic with inhalation. … Some forms of organic bromines, such as ethylene bromine, can even cause cancer. Not something you want to be hanging around with.
Add another lung killer, Bromine to the ammonium phospate lung killer and you have amplified effects.
This saturation of the Yarnell area was no good thing.
JD and IM are doing good work at exposing environmental pollution from mine operations. That is extending to the pollution from the wild land fire retardants and the deadly substances they cause withing the environment.
The FS is weighing what they consider the good uses of retardant against the effects on human health. Yarnell is the Guinea Pig for the nation.
THE HAIL MARY PLAN
I have brought this topic up before and it was briefly discussed but there wasn’t closure for me.
It appears that Eric Marsh may have been persuaded by this plan to undertake a move that those in the field must have known was dangerous and ill-advised. Somehow it became worth the risk with the understanding from Todd Able and other members of what appeared to be a team approach (Hail Mary Plan) to save Yarnell,etc. that Granite Mountain would be covered by air attack. As the hotshots made their way toward the Boulder Springs Ranch they were caught by the wildfire before they could arrive. Instead of covering Granite Mountain as discussed, air attack for an unknown reason spent 40 critical minutes laying down retardant in Peeple’s Valley which was no longer a priority area.
Since they were apparently part of the Hail Mary team why weren’t Todd Able and others advocating for air attack to move to Yarnell to assist Granite Mountain during this dangerous move they were making? Was Granite Mountain left to cope with the situation on their own without assistance as it appears or was something else going on?
Diane… see a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-466228
Back in the 70’s I was working as the only underground miner in a rat hole out of Pine Valley, California. Below was a ten ton mill run by some Hippies under the auspices of one Vern Harkness. It was a small gold mine–the mill was small enough I could keep it fed with my own efforts and I worked there for about two years. In fact, now Vern is dead, his grand son, last name, Washington Harkness contacted me to know something about his grandfather, my boss at that mine. Since I was his only miner, we did some weekend bar hopping as miners are noted to do.
There near the mine was a nice rose quartz vein and some old Spanish arrastras where the Spaniards had used slave Indian labor to grind down gold ore so like Vern’s modern ball mill and wiffle tables, the ore would be fine enough to wash out concentrates and separate the gold and silver values.
It was during that time and before I left California that I witnessed the first manzanita fires similar to the one we had here at Yarnell, Tenderfoot and the previous Doce fire. There more than even Yarnell huge tanker loads of that orange retardant were dumped in attempts to slow those manzaninita fires. I am of a mind that between the 50’s and present days there have been millions of tons of that phosphate and sulfate ammonium compounds spread upon the mountain sides near the Pacific Ocean and that covers an area all the way from San Diego to San Francisco.
So what has this to do with anything? All those chemicals are water soluble and as soon as rain comes the chemicals are washed into the Pacific Ocean. Now we see that people are amazed that thousands of dead fish are washing up on beaches between San Diego and San Francisco. You can not eat the crab or shell fish from California waters due to the toxins they now contain. Over a hundred dolphins have recently washed up dead not to mention a number of whales. The waters along those coasts have turned red from the red algae–coincidentally the same color of the retardants.
So what are the major nutrients needed by this algae to grow. They include carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, and silicon There is plenty of carbon from wild fires and we all know that this fertilizer based retardant used on wild fires is high in nitrogen and nitrogen is what is needed and loved by plants to thrive–and so it goes with the red algae overgrowth–add even the phosphates for phosphorous and you have the reason that the red algae is blooming so well along the coast of California. This red algae kills aquatic life just the same as its nutrient giving wild fire retardant does. But you won’t hear much said about this because if truth were to be known people would demand a halt to these retardant drops. Yet we know this pollution has been accumulative over decades–something that might not be reversed, but continued ammonium phosphate, nitrate drops and fertilized fields will continue to make the situation worse.
It doesn’t take a dumb Hillbilly only to know that if you want the algae to do well, dump fertilizer on the water. And it doesn’t take a genius to understand how much fertilizer both from the massive retardant dumps and the massive use of fertilizer on California soils that has managed to find its way into the Pacific Ocean. Yet we have people scratching their heads as to why this killer algae is multiplying in massive and massive fish, aquatic life are dying while the shell fish and crab are now poisonous.
The human side is not even addressed in the issue. Joy and I visited the cardiologist today. She is in better straits than I am. But we discussed the morbid topic of the dead here–she thinks about 153 now. Well you do know about 150 residents left–many houses were not rebuilt after the burn and lots of people moved away –took their insurance and ran or decided to put property left up for sale and move on. Maybe a smart thing, but I was one of the dummies to remain. See if you divide 150 by 500 residents you come up with .3 or 30% of the population dead since the fire at Yarnell. Well .3333…. is one third of the population dead, a mark soon to be met since we know quite a number are now barely hanging on. Would you say old Sonny is among that bunch seeing I have now had 7 heart attacks? Joy does not look that good either hacking and puking for two days in a row and suffering chest pains and shortness of breath. Yet both she and I have excellent blood pressure readings. My own perfect today as was hers. Yet the doctor says the hearts are not getting enough oxygen.
Anyhow that was my idea of why your ocean along the California coast is in its death throes.
The nitrate content is high along the California Coast waters. Those fertilizers and retardant dumps deprive aquatic life of their oxygen needs and are causing the dead zones we see in California, Asia, Japan, and off the coasts of China. If you love your retardant–you do not know its deadly effects upon life–aquatic and human.
Oh the one nutrient silica I did not mention is also abundant in retardant. Clay is actually fine particles of silica compounds and adds to the already silty waters of the rivers feeding the ocean. But it is no wonder that the deadly algae is being fed so well–it is getting a well balanced diet of the chemicals it needs and in such amounts to create the dead zones. Domoic acid is the neurotoxin that accumulates in shell fish, sardines, and anchovies that is poisonous to humans and sea animals that consume those types fish. Exposure to the biotoxin affects the brain, causing them to become lethargic, disoriented, and have seizures that sometimes result in death. People that survive have permanent short term memory loss–sounds like Alzheimer a bit. Maybe also why some of the animals and whales seem disoriented–Whales doing the plankton are getting large doses of the algae.
This is quite outrageous line of doing we see from industry turning its head as to why these dead zones are there when it is quite obvious the source of the problem. With these retardant industries raking in billions of dollars and fertilizer companies raking in even greater amounts of billions, it is doubtful that the killing of our oceans will stop.
Those billions in profits are kept intact with millions in propaganda to protect their continued use. Just to become President costs many millions these days and like the President it costs millions to present the retardant in a good light. And as long as the public remains ignorant of the facts those huge industries will continue to rake in their profits at the expense of human lives, aquatic life and dead and polluted ocean and ground waters.
Another insightful article
Knoxville News Sentinel 12/18
Questions linger on wildfire alerts during Gatlinburg fire by Don Jacobs and Hayes Hickman
Thank you, calvin.
Lots of detail in this new article… including…
1. Confirmation that Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller had been ‘ramping up’ all day long on Monday, November 28, and requesting all available resources… WITHOUT issuing any ‘evacuation notices’ until the fire was actually arriving in Gatlinburg circa 6:00 PM.
2. Confirmation that the ‘Smoky Mountain National Park’ Fire Officer who was the actual ‘Incident Commander’ for the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire from the time it was first discovered ( 5:20 PM on Wednesday, November 23 ) and for the FIVE days leading up to the November 28 ‘blow up’ was, in fact, GSMNP Fire Management Officer Greg Salansky.
Salansky only became the chief ‘Fire Management Officer’ for the GSMNP less than a year ago… on January 25, 2016.
Prior to that… Salansky was a ‘District Fire Officer’ for the ‘Cherokee National Forest’.
In 2009… Salansky was a ‘Fire Management Officer for the Nolichucky/Watauga District.
The Knoxville News Sentinel
Article Title: Questions linger on wildfire alerts during Gatlinburg fire
Published: 5:22 a.m. EST December 19, 2016
By: Don Jacobs and Hayes Hickman
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/tennessee/2016/12/18/questions-linger-wildfire-alerts/95144318/
From the TOP of the article…
————————————————————————————
Although authorities repeatedly said no public safety officials thought a fire nearly 6 miles deep in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park could threaten outlying areas, the Gatlinburg fire chief requested additional firefighters from outside agencies six hours before the first flames invaded the city.
And Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller’s 11:52 a.m. Nov. 28 mutual aid request for firefighters from outside agencies was issued six hours before the fire chief ordered the first mandatory evacuation of Mynatt Park and other nearby communities. Miller didn’t order a citywide mandatory evacuation until 8:30 p.m.
It all started with an arson discovered about 5:20 p.m. Nov. 23 by a fire management worker responding to a car fire on Newfound Gap Road, said National Park Deputy Superintendent Clay Jordan. From the road, the park employee saw smoke from a fire covering an area just more than a football field and end zones – about 1.5 acres.
Because of the steep, rocky terrain at the apex of Chimney Tops, National Park Fire Management Officer Greg Salansky decided containment rather than direct attack was the safer method to suppress the slow-burning wildfire. Salansky settled upon a 410-acre containment area using trails, natural barriers and hand-cobbled firebreaks.
————————————————————————————
Greg Salansky’s PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/greg.salansky
And also from the article above… we once again see the same CYA ‘mantra’ emerging about how these people who call themselves Wildland Fire experts couldn’t have been ‘expected’ to believe the fire could have reached Gatlinburg… just because they had “never seen something like that before”.
———————————————————————————
“Gatlinburg is 5.5 miles from Chimney Tops,” GSMNP Deputy Superintendent Clay Jordan said. “It was unconscionable that the fire would be a threat to Gatlinburg.
“Our fire manager ( Greg Slansky ) had never seen fire spot that far. It was unheard of around here.”
———————————————————————————
Typo above.
The GSMNP Fire Management Officer who became the ‘Incident Commander’ for the initial Chimney Tops 2 fire ( on November 23, 2016 ) was named Greg Salansky… and not ‘Greg Slansky’.
If anyone is interested in attending one of the YH Fire Court Cases, here is a link to Marcia McKee vs. State of Arizona (CA-CV-15-0800) covering these consolidated cases: (CV-2015-009068, CV-2014-0069, and CV-2014-0070).
MARCIA MCKEE, the surviving mother of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, both individually and on behalf off all statutory beneficiaries ) of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, deceased,
Plaintiffs/Appellants
versus
STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and the ARIZONA STATE ) FORESTRY DIVISION, a public entity,
Defendants/Appellees.
Court of Appeals
Division One, No. 1
CA-CV 15-0800
Maricopa County
Superior Court
No. CV2014-009068
CV2014-009069
CV2014-009070
(Consolidated)
“NOTICE OF ORAL ARGUMENT
“The above entitled cause has been set for oral argument before the Court of Appeals State of Arizona, Division One, Department D. This cause will be heard in COURTROOM 2, 2nd Floor, 1501 W. Washington, Phoenix, Arizona, on December 21, 2016 at the hour of 10:15 AM.
Arguing Time: Twenty (20) minutes per side.”
THE ORAL ARGUMENT WILL BE VIDEOTAPED AND AUDIO RECORDED..
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm
Miss McKee is the only one still in the struggle for the truth – and to the chagrin of many, refuses to settle the matter, so please keep her and all the other families, friends, and loved ones of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots in your thoughts and prayers..
She gave me permission to post this.
I had some heart concerns the past few weeks…so Wednesday I will be at i10 and 101…checkin 830am 12.21.16 the day my dad last year passed on…it is not far from the court house and I have to spend hour for test than come back in two hours so it may work out I can see the case and I will definitely will try but Sonny wont be there..Im going with 2 others.
However these cases at times end up on youtube…
Reply to Joy Collura post December 18, 2016 at 2:42 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> However these cases at times end up on youtube…
According to current ‘policy’… any of the ‘video recordings’ of any ‘oral arguments’ before the Arizona Court of Appeals (ACO) are REQUIRED to ( eventually ) appear on their PUBLIC YouTube channel.
If the upcoming oral arguments in Marcia McKee’s WRONGFUL DEATH lawsuit filed on behalf of her deceased son, Grant McKee, do NOT ( eventually ) appear on this PUBLIC ACO YouTube channel… then ( once again )… something is ‘wrotten’ in the state of Arizonastan.
The ‘Arizona Court of Appeals ( COA ) PUBLIC YouTube ‘channel’ is here…
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf0h_E3RELnsZxdh6JbfNHA
It’s worth noting that this case is, in fact, a WRONGFUL DEATH case, and not just another of the many, many ( still pending ) ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits.
The mainstream media has ALWAYS been totally WRONG when they reported that all of the Granite Mountain Hotshot ‘wrongful death’ suits have been ‘settled’.
Only 12 of those suits were ‘settled’ ( the ones being handled only by Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder )
Marcia McKee NEVER agreed to ANY kind of settlement… and ( apparently ) has no intentions of ever doing so.
Marcia McKeee still wants to know the truth. ALL of it.
You are absolutely right. She is a most courageous woman and most ADAMANT about NOT settling on anything at all.
And thanks for posting the Twisp River Report link. It wouldn’t post for me.
It will be interesting to see exactly what ‘arguments’ the attorneys for the State of Arizonastan are sticking with in this still-active wrongful death case.
The fact that part of the other ‘settlements’ in the ‘other’ Mcgroder-only cases included this weird dumb-down of the ADOSH investigation original findings of gross negligence has nothing to do with THIS ( separate ) wrongful death case.
Those ADOSH findings are still ‘valid’… and will never ‘go away’ like the attorneys for Arizona Forestry would ‘like’ them to.
The attorneys for the defendants ( Arizona Forestry, et al ) must still be hoping they can get away with the ‘sovereign immunity’ claim… even though Arizona does NOT have that kind of ‘freedom from litigation’ stuff in their state constitution like other states do.
The ‘judges’ need to just get ‘out of the way’ and let this case proceed to trial.
Marcia McKee deserves to have the matter abjudicated in front of a JURY… with the people involved with the death of her best friend and only son having to raise their hands and swear to tell… “The truth… the WHOLE truth… and nothing BUT the truth.”
The appeals case I sat in court and prayed…It was swift…met a blogger and good to meet you…let me add my comma… , I learned that the one judge was one who was recently promoted to higher court
and who knows how long this will take..soon or later…prayers with you Marcia…also this will be online soon the youtube video…and at end the one judge to left said what about friends and others….
Thinking good thoughts for Marcia McKee and her court case tomorrow.
Nothing will actually be ‘decided’ during these ‘oral arguments’ tomorrow… but it’s always interesting to hear what ‘questions’ the judges have for the arrorneys on BOTH sides. Those ‘questions’ usually indicate what the judges have decided the ‘baseline’ issues are.
At this point in the ‘appeal’ process the judges have already been bombarded with motion after motion and endless ‘briefings’ from all the attorneys involved and now it’s time to just cut through the crap and decide what the REAL issues are, and whether this case should be allowed to proceed to trial.
And that is ALL these ‘appeal’ judges are supposed to be concerned with. They are NOT required ( or even SUPPOSED ) to argue the ‘merits of the case’ itself. That’s what a REAL trial is for.. when REAL witnesses can be called and they must swear to tell the TRUTH… or now face actual repercussions for NOT doing so.
The Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) has already proven that there was more than enough incompetence and negligence in that ‘workplace’ to justify allowing a ‘wrongful death’ action to go all the way to a JURY… so it will be interesting to see what the lawyers for the defendants have to say tomorrow about why THEY believe it should NOT ( proceed to trial ).
WTKTT,
Thank you for the background information on Marsha McKee’s case. It is helpful to those of us without legal training to have some perspective.
I am amazed how long these matters take to resolve and how much persistance and patience is required.
Just listened to the oral arguments from the courtroom in Phoenix today for grant McKee’s case and trying to make sense of the legal arguments without much luck. I’m looking forward to hearing other opinions on IM.
is it online already Diane?
I was there- I only saw 2 dark headed looking lawyer ladies and blonde and another IM blogger but I did not see you- sorry I missed you—
https://youtu.be/KlYh8lskTRE
found it
Thanks for the heads up email Joy, I was looking early hours (UK Time) but couldn’t find it.
Watching the American Justice System at work was very interesting for an outsider.
I’m sure WTKTT and others will provide the detail, but it wasn’t as clear cut as I thought it would be. When the Legal bod for Arizona was saying (not a direct quote) – That there are no facts around anything being covered up, I found myself screaming at the video “READ THE INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA YARNELL HILL FIRE CHAPTERS YOU *-*-*-*-I-N-G MORON!!!!”.
“This is a very complicated case…. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head” – The Dude
I REALLY do hope Mrs McKee gets her day in court and sticks it to them. Arizona are dragging out her suffering so they don’t have to admit any liability for the Granite Mountain deaths what-so-ever.
Reply to Otis post on December 22, 2016 at 3:25 am
>> Otis said…
>>
>> Watching the American Justice System at work
>> was very interesting for an outsider.
Did you catch the ‘dig’ at the end of the ‘oral arguments’ coming from attorney David Abney to Arizona Division 1 Appeals Court Judge Andrew W. Gould ( the judge that was sitting in the center of the 3 judges ‘on the bench’ ).
Abney said… “Congratulations on your elevation, your honor”.
What attorney David Abney was referring to, of course, was the fact that just a few weeks ago, on November 28, 2016 ( the same day as the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire blowup and the deaths of 14 in Gatlinburg, Tennessee )… Arizona Governor Doug Ducey ( a Republican ) announced that Appeals Court Judge Andrew W. Gould was one of his picks for 2 new ‘Justices’ for the actual Arizona SUPREME Court.
Republican governor Ducey is the one who just also ‘expanded’ the number of Supreme Court Justices in Arizona to SEVEN instead of FIVE… so that HE could personally ‘pick’ the next 2 ( new ) Justices.
Neat trick, eh?
What do you do when you don’t have enough ‘conservatives’ on a ‘Supreme Court’ to suit your tastes?… Easy Peasy… Just ADD TWO MORE ‘Judges’ to the court so you can then just APPOINT more of ‘your kind of judges’.
Attorney David Abney’s ‘shot across the bow’ to Judge Gould was just a ‘reminder’ to him that no matter who he might now feel ‘beholden’ to ( like governor Ducey for his new Supreme Court job )… it is still his JOB to render an opinion based on the merits of the case… and NOT based on who he might now feel he owes a ‘favor’ to.
So yea… American politics can get ‘interesting’… especially when people get to take office without even getting a majority of the votes.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> I’m sure WTKTT and others will provide the detail,
>> but it wasn’t as clear cut as I thought it would be.
I ( myself ) will post more about it… but it really is very simple. It all comes down to that same argument from way back when regarding whether ‘worker’s compensation’ benefits are to be considered as something called the ‘exclusive remedy’ in this case ( and in the death of all the other Hotshots as well ).
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> When the Legal bod for Arizona was saying (not a
>> direct quote) – That there are no facts around
>> anything being covered up, I found myself
>> screaming at the video “READ THE INVESTIGATIVE
>> MEDIA YARNELL HILL FIRE CHAPTERS
>> YOU *-*-*-*-I-N-G MORON!!!!”.
Ah… welcome to ‘lawyer speak’.
He did NOT actually say no ‘facts’ actually EXIST which point to a massive ‘coverup’ following the tragedy.
They ( FACTS ) most certainly DO exist… and he KNOWS they do… even without anyone having been able to actually call ‘witnesses’ yet
What he was trying to tell the judges is that they should keep the case ‘dismissed’ just because the plantiffs didn’t include a ‘laundry list’ of the FACTS and even the already-existing evidence in their actual ‘legal briefs’.
Just another ‘lawyer trick’.
More about all this later.
I attended the McKee v. AZ oral arguments and talked briefly to Attorney David Abney after the oral arguments.
He told me there had been a PRIOR oral argument to these same judges, on this matter, earlier in the Summer, and that the judges had ALREADY WRITTEN THEIR OPINION BASED ON THOSE PRIOR ORAL ARGUMENTS.
So, basically the judge’s minds were already made up before hearing these December 21st oral arguments? WTF!?
Abney said, statistically, the judges will change their mind(s) only ten percent (10%} of the time after hearing these second oral arguments.
Abney said that the case would be appealed to the AZ Supreme Court, whomever prevails. And so, the same percentage applies for the AZ Supreme Court to take the case upon appeal.
And I finally got to meet and briefly talk with Joy, so that was a blessing.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 23, 2016 at 5:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> basically the judge’s minds were already
>> made up before hearing these December
>> 21st oral arguments? WTF!?
That might explain what happened when Appeals Court Judge Andrew Gould ‘jumped’ attorney for Arizona Forestry Michael Parrish the moment he took the podium and before he even really had a chance to say anything at all.
As soon as Parrish ‘introduced’ himself at the podium… Judge Andrew Gould ( the one already appointed to the Arizona SUPREME COURT ) ‘jumped his shit’ and fired a QUESTION at Parrish…
————————————————–
+19:03
Judge Andrew Gould: Hold on one second… cus… I… I have a… I just want to be clear. The way I read your brief is… uh.. you… you AGREE that the ‘intentional infliction of emotional distress’ claim is NOT barred by the worker’s compensation statute. That it’s a SEPARATE claim to the extent that… that the ‘exclusive remedy’ provision might apply… right?
Attorney Michael Parrish: Correct.
Judge Andrew Gould: Okay. Just wanted to be clear. Go ahead.
————————————————–
So what ‘newly appointed’ SUPREME COURT Justice ‘Andrew Gould’ really wanted attorney Michael Parrish to ‘acknowledge’ ( in open court ) was that even if the Justices agree with reasons to ‘dismiss’ as related to the worker’s compensation and the ‘exclusive remedy’ issues… that they could STILL allow the case to proceed because of the SEPARATE issue regarding ‘intentional infliction of emotional distress’.
And even Arizona Forestry Michael Parrish then ‘acknowledged’ that as a distinct possibility.
So the fact that newly appointed Arizona Supreme Court Justice Andrew Gould ‘interrupted’ attorney Michael Parrish just to ‘clarify’ that one point means that Gould himself seems to already KNOW he is going to be ‘hearing’ this case AGAIN ( very soon ) at the SUPREME COURT level.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Abney said that the case would be
>> appealed to the AZ Supreme Court,
>> whomever prevails. And so, the same
>> percentage applies for the AZ Supreme
>> Court to take the case upon appeal.
See above ( and other ‘moments’ in these recent ‘oral arguments’ ).
It DOES seem like newly-appointed Arizona Supreme Court Justice Andrew Gould ALREADY knew very well ( during these recent ‘oral arguments’ ) that he will be ‘hearing this case again’ in his new JOB as an Arizona Supreme Court Justice.
In other words… even Gould knows there are ‘issues’ here that CAN/SHOULD go all the way to the Arizona Supreme Court, since they involve Arizona Constitution issues surrounding the lack of ‘sovereign immunity’ in the state of Arizona.
There was also this exchange at the recent ‘oral arguments’…
In the video of the recent ‘oral arguments’… the Arizona Division 1 Appeals Court Judges seen sitting on the bench, from left to right… were…
Peter B. Swann
Andrew W. Gould
Patricia A. Orozco
Shortly after attorney Michael L. Parrish ( representing Arizona Forestry ) started his ‘arguments’… he took a moment to mention Judge Gould’s ‘promotion’ to the Arizona SUPREME COURT… and Parrish immediately got ‘called out’ on that by Judge Patricia Orozco…
————————————————–
+19:51
Attorney Michael L. Parrish: Justice Gould… I think it’s JUSTICE now… I’d like to start with one point…
( Judge Patricia Orozco interrupts Parrish regarding his now pointing out in this open ‘Appeals Court’ hearing that Judge Andrew Gould has ALREADY been appointed to the SUPREME COURT by Republican governor Doug Ducey… and that he can/should be referred to now as ‘Justice Gould’… )
Judge Patricia Orozco: No… let’s not start down that road.
Judge Andrew Gould: Please don’t do that. You’re only gonna get me in trouble.
Judge Patricia Orozco: He’s already wanting us to BOW and so on…
——————————————–
So it seems like everyone there in that courtroom was very much aware that the ‘issues’ being discussed were NOT ‘going away’… and that this case will MOST likely also end up in front of the Arizona Supreme Court ( including the newly appointed Andrew Gould ).
But don’t you think k that Gould would have to recuse
himself die to the conflict of interest because he was part of the AZ State Appeals court opinion in this case?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 24, 2016 at 10:39 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> But don’t you think k that Gould
>> would have to recuse himself due
>> to the conflict of interest because
>> he was part of the AZ State Appeals
>> court opinion in this case?
No. For THREE reasons…
1. It’s Arizonastan. Normal rules don’t apply.
2. Gould would no more need to ‘recuse’ himself at the ‘next level’ than Judge Peter Swann should have recused himself at ‘this’ level from hearing THIS case at the same time he is part of the ‘team’ deciding the ( obviously ) RELATED ‘Property Damage’ class action suit.
BOTH cases were ‘dismissed’ by the same lower court Judge ( Richard Gama ) for much the same reasons. Gama decided that HE was ‘qualified’ ( and had the ‘authority’ ) to decide issues that relate directly to what is ( or is NOT ) in the ‘Arizona Constitution… and that’s why BOTH of these cases are ‘going up the ladder’.
3. It’s Arizonastan.
Followup…
BOTH of these cases ( the ‘consolidated’ property damage cases AND the ‘consolidated’ wrongful death cases ) have the potential to go all the way the United States Supreme Court, because of some of the basic, fundamental RIGHTS involved.
The 6th ammendment to the United States Constitution ( i’e. The Bill Of Rights ) covers what ALL citizens of the country are entitled to in CRIMINAL cases… and the 7th ammendment ( also i.e. The Bill Of Rights ) covers CIVIL cases ( like the Yarnell related cases ).
If a particular STATE in the Union ( especially ones that don’t have their own codified ‘sovereign immunity’ laws in their own State Constitutions, like Arizona ) starts ‘denying’ its citizens their RIGHT to have their ‘day in court’ ( and their RIGHTS to a ‘Juried’ trial as also covered in the 6th and 7th amendments ), even in the face of strong evidence that justifies the ‘allegations’…
…then the United States Supreme Court can/SHOULD have something to say about it.
WTKTT,
Thanks for you reply and insight on the recuse issue.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on December 25, 2016 at 9:07 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Thanks for you reply and insight
>> on the recuse issue.
Out of room down here.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-459770
“This is a very complicated case, Maude. A lot of ins, a lot of outs. Fortunately, I’m adhering to a pretty strict drug regimen to keep my mind limber.”
The Dude
WTKTT and Robert the Second,
Thank you for translating what happened in court with Marsha McKee’s case.
The aspect of inflicting intentional harm to Mrs. McKee is confusing. I didn’t read where she was denied death benefits for her son or how she was discriminated against once she filed a lawsuit but perhaps that is handled separately.
One phrase comes to mind–“justice delayed is justice denied”
I am in Indianapolis with daughter and grandkids but watched the video–surprised to see it available so soon
**
** TWISP RIVER FIRE FINAL ‘CRaP’ REPORTS HAVE NOW BEEN PUBLISHED
Thanks to Robert the Second ( RTS ) the ‘heads up’ on this.
The ‘Final Reports’ on the ‘Twisp River Fire Fatalities’ fire are now all HERE at the ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Site’ page dedicated to the ‘Twisp River Fire’… including their ( updated ) ‘final’ detailed ‘narrative’ of what THEY say actually took place that day…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=c221a055-a972-478c-be5c-9a16c2d5929c
The ‘final’ reports contain much more detail than the ‘preliminary’ CRaP protocol reports… but there are ( as was expected ) still many critical details MISSING.
More about that in another ( upcoming ) post.
Typo above… meant to say…
Thanks to Robert the Second ( RTS ) FOR the ‘heads up’ on this.
Living on the edge– Joy and I had a visit to the McCrackins yesterday. They were away at the time on vacation only to return to fine their home completly gone. Larry and Patty live right on the edge of the north line of Glen Isla. Their proximity to the extreme dumps of retardant is just yards. Deer Track road is their street and what I am talking about here.
One third of the people on that street are now dead since the fire. Joy visited the next door neighbor, Bryan Smith was the fellow who said the photo presented as to who had rescued his cousin was not Gary Cordes –Cordes got a commendation for the act at any rate–maybe he was the one who sent the guy that did rescue the cousin. But this is not what I want to address–Bryon is not in good health–he has gone down hill in his health since the fire to the point Joy says he and his wife both look ill–to put it like Joy sees it–he does not look to be able to last much longer. Patty and Bruce do not appear to be in their best health since the fire–we see the difference since we knew them before the fire–both very vibrant individuals before concerning health. Bruce across the street appears to have deteriorated health as well. Yet when we visited his neighbor, Howard that we visited in Surprise looks to be well–his wife however ill from the loss. Howard though never returned to rebuild and his place is still just a cement foundation after being burned away.
Statistics like this do not seem to hit the news–but when we see the deaths and obvious deterioration in health from individuals living in such close proximity to jumbo jet loads of retardant dropped in their back yards then it is time to take notice.
Of course your big business and extreme profits made from these jumbo jet loads are going to continue to lobby and keep Forest Officials and Federal Men happy and
the public dumb to the real dangers of this agent orange retardant. Most of us know that the orange in that soup is iron oxide powder mixed in for the coloring. Iron oxide powder itself is not a nice thing to breath and I am not sure whether its effects are anywhere as detrimental as the other hidden chemicals and the major one not hidden–the 85-95% ammonium compounds that are guaranteed lung killers. Lung cells do not reginerate–but the young can handle the loss of even a full lung and still survive–though in a diminished capacity. It is the older folk that the chemical soup is most damaging to health.
And despite all this that is easily seen first hand–documented deaths and illness abundant after the retardant drops we will have plenty say this shit is inert and not detrimental to health. Even some of the retired fire fighters, though admitting to having been doused with the crap will continue to blame their illnesses to other causes. I would like to invite them to visit Bryon and wife and see how they were before the fire and see them now after the fire. See they used to come to town meetings so we did know them immediately after the fire and how their health has gone down since.
As I see these things and more recent deaths I will continue to harp about this deadly retardant. We had a second dose of jumbo jet loads since the Tenderfoot Fire since June 8 of this year–so the health experiment goes on. We are now classic guinea pigs to a town doped with jumbo jet loads in the hundreds of thousands of gallons on all sides of Yarnell-Glen Isla.
In the Yarnell fire the retardant did little to help if any in retarding the wind blown fire–and in wind storms it is about as effective as the Pulaski laded 19 would have been in protecting structures during the Yarnell Fire.
I will continue to harp as long as I continue to hear health and death reports –stopping this crap from being dropped next homes may be the greatest life saver of all–remember we lost 19 fire fighters but out of origional 650 tally of residents, more than 100 are now dead since the fire–and the count continues to mount–not only in deaths but in respiratory and related illnesses. Your reporter here has had his seventh heart attack–and now lives with limited lung capacity–all since the fire. Tell me breathing that crap does not affect your health–I will tell you look at Yarnell’s death count since the fire and visit the ill here from its effects, many now on their death beds.
I should add Joy is now having to see a cardiologist at her young age of 44–she is getting the aftermath of breathing these chemicals–She and I did much hiking through it–it took some time for me to realize that more than a sixth of the population does not die in the short time after the fire unless there is a reason behind it. We know the reason behind the 19 deaths–but much as the 100+ aftermath deaths due to retardant dumps–the real reasons are hidden. Because it is mostly elderly that are dying–the excuse that it is their age killing them does not ride in this case. Statistics bear that out–as do the exceptional amount of illness abounding here–all related to respiratory function.
If I read both of the main reports correctly, Engine 642 did NOT have a supervisor with them during much of their operations on Woods Canyon Rd., including at the time of the fatalities.
I didn’t see this mentioned anywhere as a concern, and perhaps it should be.
TTWARE,
I am glad you picked up on the lack of a supervisor at the time of the fatalities NOT being mentioned in either of the Reports. Good catch. It certainly is and was a concern.
I have so far only made the time to read the fire weather and fire behavior reports and view the Powerpoint presentation, so I have yet to read the sections dealing with decisions, human failures, and such.
It’s highly likely that ‘they’ (CRaP Reviewers) did not mention anything about that is because the regular Engine Boss was a highly qualified and experienced WFF with Hot Shot Crew experience was NOT there because he had CALLED IN SICK THAT DAY. He was replaced by an alternate who was likely ‘qualified’ for the position, however, with much less experience.
Did any of the reports mention that the alternate Engine Boss was outside of the Engine directing helicopter buckets when the fire aggressively ‘stood up’ and took off, prompting them to leave the area?
Regarding the required WFF Rules and LCES, those on the LEFT FLANK complied with them and did just fine, without any adverse incidents. However, those on the right flank did NOT comply with the WFF Rules and LCES and that is the flank where all the burn injuries, burnovers, shelter deployments, and worse occurred.
The report did briefly mention that the regular Captain for 642 was off on sick leave BUT, they simply left it at that, saying no more. That little tidbit was how I was able to put 2 and 2 together while reading the rest of the report, and found that there was no supervision with the rig.
There were 2 ‘points of contact’ designated for the right flank. One for ‘air drops’, and one for the other stuff. Both of them were Asst. Engine Captains. The Asst. from 642 (that vehicles primary supervisor), according to the report, was not involved with the air drops BUT, he was away from the engine a good bit of the time assessing dozer lines, etc., including the time-frames when a new engine crew was cobbled together without a supervisor, and also when the engine had to bail when the fire blew-up.
As if that wasn’t enough, 642 also initially had an Engine Boss Trainee on-board. He was pulled-off the engine and assigned to scout dozer line at about the same time that the Asst. Captain left for the ‘point of contact’ duties. Neither ever re-joined the engine. While, not authorized to act as a trainee on his own without someone supervising him, it seems that destiny was bound and determined to strip that engine of all vestiges of any kind of a supervisory influence, resulting in the tragedy that occurred..
TTWARE,
I believe you have hit on one of the significant Human Failures that the CraP Review Team clearly failed to address.
There was in fact, IQCS Red Card QUALIFIED “supervision with the rig,” however, vastly inexperienced and certainly distracted what with the multi-tasking he was attempting in a dynamically escalating fire situation.
That Forest had a habit of placing employees in various supervisory positions just to get the Resource ‘qualified’ to get them out the door to fill the immediate need or Resource Order.
The 2001 30-Mile Fire, basically in the same area, was a classic example.
This is an interesting research paper by Meteorologist and Researcher Cliff Mass titled: Was the fatal Wildfire near Twisp,Washington Predicable?
He indicates that it was very predictable.
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2015/08/was-wildfire-evolution-that-killed.html
You’ll notice one comment from “Elizabeth” and I will bet you that is none other than the very same one that posted here on IM.
RTS said:
“There was in fact, IQCS Red Card QUALIFIED “supervision with the rig,” however, vastly inexperienced and certainly distracted what with the multi-tasking he was attempting in a dynamically escalating fire situation”.
Perhaps I missed something as I sometimes do, but who was the “QUALIFIED” supervisor “with” the rig?
The Engine Boss was sick, the assistant EB was away from the engine most of the time while it was on Woods Canyon Rd., and the EB trainee was off scouting dozer line while the remainder of the crew was doing the various things they were doing.
Unless there was another ‘qualified’ person not mentioned in the report, I think your statement is incorrect when you use the term “with the rig”.
If you mean “assigned to the rig”, then that’s a whole different ballgame than “with the rig”. That’s kind of like saying the Division Zulu position was staffed all afternoon at Yarnell.
Again, perhaps I missed something, either in the report, or in the intent of your statement.
RTS posted
“Also on Tuesday, Deputy Superintendent of Great Smoky Mountains National Park Clay Jordan said officials believe there was NO WAY TO CONTROL THE FIRE IN THE PARK BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“NO WAY TO CONTROL the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.
No way to control the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28? Really? There seemed to be plenty of time and ample opportunities to do so.
RTS what tactics or strategy would have been appropriate prior to the blow up on 11/28? Do you think that it being Thanksgiving and the subsequent holiday weekend played a part in the decision to only monitor the fire and not engage it?
Thanks
Reply to calvin post on December 16, 2016 at 6:16 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Do you think that it being Thanksgiving and the subsequent holiday weekend
>> played a part in the decision to only monitor the fire and not engage it?
Well… if you read the TIMELINE article you found that you said you ‘could not link to’ at…
http://wate.com/2016/12/13/timeline-gatlinburg-wildfires/
…that article seems to say they WERE at least ‘doing something’ on Thanksgiving Day.
That article is obviously just sort of a ‘press release’ coming out of the ‘National Park Service’ and probably needs to be taken with many grains of salt ( since there isn’t enough information in it to VERIFY what they are saying they were doing )… but it DOES have ‘entries’ for all the ‘days’ of the fire and short blurbs ( from NPS ) about what they were ( or were NOT ) doing each day.
However… this article itself suggests the fire started on TUESDAY afternoon, November 22, 2016… and not on Wednesday afternoon, November 23, 2016… as originally thought.
The article is ‘messed up’ and has TWO entries for ‘Wednesday, November 23, 2016’.
The FIRST ‘Timeline entry’ for ‘Wednesday, November 23, 2016″ starts with…
————————————————————————–
Wednesday, November 23
At 5:30 p.m. park firefighters observed a smoke column at the top of the Chimney Tops, which is located about 5.5 miles from the city of Gatlinburg. Jordan said the fire was about 1.5 acres in size, located in the North Spire.
————————————————————————–
But the SECOND ‘Timeline’ entry for ‘Wednesday, November 23, 2016’ ( right underneath the first one ) starts with…
————————————————————————–
Wednesday, November 23
The next morning, Jordan said the incident commander RETURNED to the fire with a squad of firefighters. He said at that point the fire was creeping and smoldering in the thick vegetation at the top of the rocky summit.
————————————————————————–
So which is it?
Are they trying to say the fire actually STARTED ( or was first noticed ) circa 5:30 PM on TUESDAY, November 22, 2016… and that first ‘Wednesday, November 23’ entry in the article is just a massive TYPO and really should have been ‘Tuesday, November 23’?
How are we supposed to interpret them saying the ‘Incident Commander’ RETURNED to the fire the NEXT MORNING ( Wednesday, November 23, 2016 ), when it was supposedly already established that the fire didn’t even START until 5:30 PM on Wednesday, November 23, 2016?
Is this ‘new information’ being presented in this article ( about what DAY the fire started )… or just a massive ‘fuck up’ on the part of the people writing this ‘Timeline’ article?
Either way… there ARE ‘entries’ in this ‘Timeline’ for ‘Thanksgiving Day ( Thursday, November 24, 2016 )… and even if the day entries are ‘screwed up’ and ‘offset’ by 1 day… they ( NPS ) are still asserting that they WERE ‘doing things’ on ‘Thanksgiving Day’ itself.
But ‘those things’ only amounted to looking at maps and deciding what the ‘containment lines’ should look like for this puppy.
Also… another reason to take this ‘Timeline’ being published by WATE News with ‘many grains of salt’ is the fact that their MAPS are also screwed up.
They are trying to present ‘maps’ that show the spread of the fire on the various days from Wednesday, November 23, 2016 through Monday, November 28, 2016… but the ‘maps’ for some of the ‘days’ don’t match the available photos and videos at all.
I actually do believe them when they say that the rapid advance of the fire all day Monday was due to extraordinary ‘spotting’ events… but as for the actual ‘boundaries’ of the fire on days like Sunday, November 27… their ‘maps’ aren’t matching actual photographic evidence.
There is also no mention whatsoever of what has been reported by others regarding the ‘mobile alert’ screw up. That the reason TEMA didn’t send what they received was because it was more than 90 characters and the WEA ( Wireless Emergency Alert ) system could only send 90 characters of less.
And there is also this ‘questionable’ bit of CYA coming from NPS.
Notice that GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ is now ‘out of the picture’ on this one and the CYA is now all coming from GSMNP DEPUTY Superintendent
Regarding WHY they did not perform an ‘Initial Attack’ on the fire… GSMNP DEPUTY Superintendent Clay Jordan is now ‘offering’ this ‘explanation’…
—————————————————————————
“Given the inaccessible terrain, comprised of cliffs and thick vegetation, the crew decided that it was not safe, nor effective to dig a fire line around it, close to the fire, which is generally done by removing that vegetation down to bare soil as a method to stop the fire,” said Jordan. “They also knew that using helicopters to drop water on the fire would be ineffective. Bucket drops are used to slow an intensely burning fire, but they do not put out even a small wildland fire that is burning in deep duff.”
—————————————————————————
“Bucket drops are used to slow an intensely burning fire, but they do not put out even a small wildland fire that is burning in deep duff.”
Really?
Whether that is just a load of CYA bullshit or not… given that they didn’t have many other options… wasn’t it at least worth a try at SOME point before the FIFTH day of the damn fire?
What would FIVE DAYS of ‘bucket drops’ have done on that 1 to 3 acre fire?
Nothing at all?
What was totally LACKING here ( just like in Yarnell on both Friday and Saturday, June 28 and 29, 2013 ) was any real sense of ‘urgency’.
Typo up above. I typed ‘Tuesday, November 23’ when I should have typed ‘Tuesday, November 22’.
Section above ( referencing the TIMELINE article ) should have read like this…
———————————————————————–
So which is it?
Are they trying to say the fire actually STARTED ( or was first noticed ) circa 5:30 PM on TUESDAY, November 22, 2016… and that first ‘Wednesday, November 23’ entry in the article is just a massive TYPO and really should have been ‘Tuesday, November 22?
————————————————————————
Calvin and WTKTT,
From the link WTKTT posted: “As darkness approached, a firefighting team hiked up the mountain to size-up the fire. They discovered the fire burning among a rock scramble at the top,” said Jordan. ….. With the rocky terrain and darkness, he said firefighters returned because there was NOTHING FURTHER THEY COULD DO THAT EVENING.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Rock scrambling is described as a method of ascending rocky faces and ridges. It’s not rock climbing, but it’s not walking either. Rock scrambles are typically associated with trails that offer ‘non-technical’ summits as a destination.
NOTHING further they could do? Really? How about taking advantage of the plenteous natural barrier (LARGE ROCKS) to tie in to. So, I think a 1-1/2 acre fire at the top of a knob is certainly one that could have and should have been suppressed.
The Thanksgiving holiday was not an influence because NIFC in Boise, ID was heavily mobilizing a ton of Resources, including Hot Shot Crews from California (the only ones available) and amassing all the Type 2 IA Crews they could muster to the Southern Region. They also mobilized ALL the available Type 6 Engines from the Nation’s Federal and State agencies, Contractors, and finally Municipal Fire Departments.
This statement is a gem, especially coming from an alleged 25 year veteran of Northeast Region wildland fires: “They also knew that using helicopters to drop water on the fire would be INEFFECTIVE. Bucket drops are used to slow an INTENSELY BURNING FIRE, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN PUT OUT EVEN A SMALL WILDLAND FIRE THAT IS BURNING IN DEEP DUFF. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Really? Effective on intensely burning fires but ineffective on small fires. That completely defies logic. I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe the Public DISinformation Officer misquoted him.
Below is the link for the 12 UTC (0600 EST) Chimney Tops Fire MesoWest ROMAN RAWS observations and links for November 22, 2016, the day BEFORE the Chimney Tops Fire started.
The reason I show the November 22 readings is to reveal the COLD, mostly freezing and/or below freezing temperatures.
COLD does NOT put fires out, moisture does. In the Northeast and Southeast Regions, the COLDER the temperatures, the DRIER the FUEL MOISTURE and the DRIER the FUELS. The COLD TEMPERATURES basically FREEZE DRY the moisture right out of the soils and the fuels, making them more available for consumption and much more VOLATILE!
http://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/trend_fire.cgi?hour1=12&month1=11&day1=22&year1=2016&type=1&fireid=16502&orderby=p&rawsflag=2&radius=50&noho=2
Now note the 21 UTC (1700 EST) observations, much DRIER and INCREASED AND GUSTY WINDS.
http://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/trend_fire.cgi?hour1=21&month1=11&day1=23&year1=2016&type=1&fireid=16502&orderby=p&rawsflag=2&radius=50&noho=2
Quoting again from the link posted: “The park’s fire management team applied an INDIRECT ATTACK STRATEGY identifying a 410-ACRE CONTAINMENT AREA area where the terrain allowed the fire to be fought safely and effectively, according to Jordan. He said that is a STANDARD FIREFIGHTER SUPPRESSION STRATEGY IN MOUNTAINOUS TERRAIN.
Yes, it is when the fire behavior is too intense and/or the terrain is too rugged and dangerous. This was NOT the case here, based on the photograph shown and the fire weather and fire behavior at the time. AGGRESSIVE initial attack could have and should have been the preferred option.
“…. they all agreed that the fire attack plan was the ONLY practical option for controlling the fire AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. (EMPHASIS ADDED) Once again, their choice and reasoning defies logic.
The ONLY practical option, are you f**king kidding me? How can a 410-acre containment area and all that is required to accomplish that (line construction, firing and holding operations, mopping up, etc.) be a better and safer choice than aggressively suppressing a 1-1/2 acre fire?
This is based on the photo revealed in the November 23rd, 1.5 acre photo (“November 23 – Column of smoke rising from Chimney Tops fire”).
The entire News Conference and the video clips are fallaciously based on the time period once it ESCAPED containment and was aggressively spotting and growing exponentially.
The large “containment boundary” box depicted in the Timeline article was a viable option EXCEPT for the extremely strong and erratic cold font winds they endured.
RTS,
I 100% agree with your assessment. 100%. Deep duff on the ridge top? Nope, try again Those are xeric soils.
You are absolutely spot freakin’ on. I’m thinking we have way more in common than differences. Way more, Cheers!
Woodduck
This is a link for the Plymouth State Weather archive Meteogram data for November 23, 2016 from the Chattanooga/Love, TN RAWS site.
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-statlog-a.cgi?ident=kcha&pl=graph&yy=16&mm=11&dd=23&pg=web
Click on the “How to interpret meteograms” link opening up a whole new world of weather observation knowledge
The times are across the bottom, Note the wind speeds and gusts from 1700 to 2100.
The next link is also from the archived Plymouth State Weather Surface Dew Point Depressions indicating HIGH dew point depressions (high teens and twenties), an indicator of high to extreme potential for large fire growth.
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-pltmap-a.cgi?re=se&va=dewdc&yy=16&mm=11&dd=23&hh=18&density=&sc=1.0&ge=640×480&pg=web&id=&zoom=.6
Note the high dew point depression values in TN, southern KY, SC, NC, and southern VA. Values of 12 degrees C at 700 mb (10,000 feet) are significant indicators of large fire growth.
These indicate the POTENTIAL for large fire growth warranting aggressive initial attack.
Here’s the archive November 27, 2016 Plymouth State Weather indicating VERY COLD TEMPERATURES setting up for increased fire behavior and large fire growth, freeze drying the moisture from the soil and the fuels..
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-statlog-a.cgi?ident=kcha&pl=graph&yy=16&mm=11&dd=27&pg=web
Here’s the archive November 28, 2016 Plymouth State Weather indicating VERY WARM DAYTIME TEMPERATURES setting up for increased fire behavior and large fire growth as a result of the previous night’s freeze drying the moisture from the soil and the fuels..
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-statlog-a.cgi?ident=kcha&pl=graph&yy=16&mm=11&dd=28&pg=web
Note the very strong, gusty winds from 1600 to 2300 hours setting up for aggressive to extreme fire behavior and large fire growth.
Woodduck,
So much for the NPS dude’s 20 plus years of Northeast Region fire experience, ey.
Thanks for the renewed vote of confidence. I have ALWAYS felt we had “way more in common than differences. Way more.” I never gave up on you. Disagreed at times, yes.
RTS,
Thank you. I have thrown some shots at you that were below the belt out of frustration & I regret that. I’m sure you understand. Let me also say that once I graduated from lowest form of life Pulaski driver on a hand crew and started moving up in the world, I’ve come to realize the world is not what it seems. Unqualified personnel with pencil-whipped quals (because it’s not what you know it’s who you know), stupid tactics, everyone gets a red-card munipical entanglement, let fires burn & ‘monitor’ them………etc, etc….
It makes me crazy because I care about the people that pay our salary getting what they pay for (TRUST), the people I work with in-state & across the country, and I care about our nation’s forest resources. Yet firefighters and civilians are DEAD because of incompetency & mis-guided management. Families are without loved ones this Christmas because of a failing system and too few WFF with a functioning brain that actually maintain the ability to think for themselves & stand up to management.
Few folks are going to read the fire management plan I posted for GSMNP (186 pages?) but if they did they would completely understand why the Chimney Tops fire did what it did. They would also come to understand what it is like to be in the boots of a wff standing on the border tasked with protecting private property outside the park.
Fire is a chemical chain reaction known as oxidation & follows laws of physics. If you let one go because you want ‘reintroduce fire in the ecosystem to the fullest extent possible’ & you are in a drought….& it’s fall fire season in the Southeast……..& you fail to react to the weather forecast………well then – YOU GET WHAT YOU GET.
Merry Christmas, RTS. Thanks.
Woodsman
t
Woodduck,
Thanks for the post My Friend. I completely understand your strong frustrations and reactions. It’s okay, because unfortunately, it goes with the territory. And the fact that we are bureaucrats by definition because of what we do, however, we do NOT fit into the ‘Typical Bureaucrat’ mold. It is a necessary task for us to swim UPSTREAM against the flow of incompetency, indecision, and all other pathologies of power, if we truly want to make a difference.
Keep up the good fight. It never ends.
As I have said previously, almost all of my best up-and-coming supervisors were the agitators, mischief-makers, trouble-makers, and wise-asses, BECAUSE they were not afraid to speak truth to power and/or rock the boat. In other words, the were NOT going to ‘go along to get along’ and so, they did NOT take the Trip to Abilene.
Where did you post the fire management plan for the GSMNP?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
I have found what I believe to be the only picture available of the Chimney Tops 2 fire on the day it was spotted, 11/23/
I cannot link so I will have to ask WTK for assistance.
The photo appears in an online article published December 13 at 229pm. It appears on WATE.com. It is titled Timeline: Gatlinburg wildfire National Park Service explains how Chimney Tops2 fire spread to Gatlinburg.
Thanks in advance WTK. This photo is important.
Calvin,
Got the link for those interested:
http://wate.com/2016/12/13/timeline-gatlinburg-wildfires/
Also downloaded the first photo.
This is the most in depth article I’ve seen. I haven’t read it carefully yet, but the maps are clear and compelling. Yarnell was measured in yards, this one in miles. I’d be curious to read an analysis by one of our board WLFFs.
Reply to Muzzy post on December 16, 2016 at 10:52 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> This is the most in depth article I’ve seen.
Take it all with ‘grains of salt’. It’s basically just a ‘press release’ coming from GSMNP DEPUTY Superintendent Clay Jordan. Looks like they ( NPS ) have already kicked actual GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Clay to the back of the ‘spokesman’ bus on this one. Maybe that was a direct result of him pissing off Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters at that initial ‘press conference’.
That being said… at least this article is TRYING to provide SOME detail about what did ( or did NOT ) happen for the FIVE DAYS prior to this tragedy.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> I haven’t read it carefully yet, but the maps are clear and compelling.
And some of them are also just plain WRONG.
SOME of those maps showing the ‘fire perimeters’ don’t match available photo and video evidence at all. Especially the ‘map’ they have for ‘Sunday, November 27, 2016’, the day before the ‘blow up’.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Yarnell was measured in yards, this one in miles.
‘Yards’ and/or ‘miles’… the similarities to the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire are there.
Based on conditions, fuel loads, weather and a ( supposed ) ‘professional’ knowledge of fire behavior ( not just in YOUR region )… you are SUPPOSED to KNOW what COULD HAPPEN… and make decisions accordingly.
Just as was the case after Yarnell… we have people here who were SUPPOSEDLY ‘professional’ Wildland Firefighters basically doing the CYA dance and saying…
“I’d never seen that before so I didn’t know it could happen”.
Excuse me… HUGE TYPO up above.
Meant to say…
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash ( not Clay ).
Rest in Peace, Muhammad Ali.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 14, 2016 at 1:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> ( From the recent ‘Fire Engineering’ article… )
http://www.fireengineering.com/ap-news/2016/12/13/the-latest-cell-towers-down-no-fire-evacuation-text-alert.html?cmpid=enl_FE_FireEngineeringDaily_2016-12-14&[email protected]&eid=328758895&bid=1614792
>> “Also on Tuesday, Deputy Superintendent of Great Smoky Mountains National
>> Park Clay Jordan said officials believe there was NO WAY TO CONTROL THE
>> FIRE IN THE PARK BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg
>> area Nov. 28.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
>>
>> “NO WAY TO CONTROL the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into
>> the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.
>>
>> No way to control the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the
>> Gatlinburg area Nov. 28? Really? There seemed to be plenty of time and ample
>> opportunities to do so.
Yes, there were.
FIVE DAYS with little to no wind… and just a ‘creeping’ fire.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “Jordan also said there was NO NUMBER OF FIREFIGHTERS OR FIRE TRUCKS
>> that could have stopped the spread of the fires IN THOSE WIND CONDITIONS,
>> which reached gusts about 87 miles per hour.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
>>
>> This would likely be an accurate statement based on several factors: the ongoing
>> and historical drought; the significant wind speeds; significant fuel loadings; the
>> sheer number of structures with little or no Firewise mitigation; and the massive,
>> ubiquitous ember showers.
Agreed.
Just like the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… there was a ‘window of opportunity’ to put the fire out ( and make SURE it was out )… and the ‘only cure was prevention’ for what COULD happen if the fire ‘escaped’, given the conditions and the fuel loads.
And just like the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… that ‘window of opportunity’ was MISSED, an entire town almost got wiped off the map, and people DIED.
** VIDEO OF THE FIRE THE DAY BEFORE BLOWUP ( SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2016 )
A fellow named ‘Masson Corlette’ uploaded a video to YouTube the day AFTER the ‘blowup’. He shot the video out on the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail on Sunday, November 27, 2016 ( the day BEFORE the ‘blowup’ on Monday, November 28, 2016 ).
The video clearly shows the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire burning as of Sunday afternoon, and a little less then 24 hours before people in the Gatlinburg area would DIE.
That Sunday afternoon… the ‘fire’ was still confined to the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ feature.
One of the most ‘astounding’ things about this video is that not only does it clearly show what the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire looked like on Sunday afternoon ( from down in the trailhead parking lot )… apparently Masson and his friends then DECIDED to hike UP to the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ and shoot more video from there…
…and there were somehow being ALLOWED to do that ( hike to the ‘Chimney Tops’ even as the fire was burning on Sunday ).
And on this ‘hike’ to the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ that Sunday afternoon… there seemed to be NO ONE AROUND. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Not even any ‘rangers’ to even STOP these young men from ‘hiking’ all the way UP to the ‘Chimney Tops’ and INTO the ‘burning area’.
Smokey Mountain National Park Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ has said repeatedly ( at press conferences and in public statements ) that he had “FOUR Helicopters” working the fire that Sunday… but there is NO EVIDENCE of that in this ‘video’ that was shot that same Sunday afternoon by Masson Corlette.
Not while they were down in the ‘Chimney Tops Trailehead’ parking lot ( which was also still open to tourists ) ‘filming’… nor at any time while they ‘hiked’ up to the fire.
So WHEN those ‘FOUR Helicopters’ that Cassius Cash keeps mentioning MIGHT have been ‘working the fire’ is still a ‘mystery’.
I’m even beginning to wonder whether the ROTOR WASH from those FOUR Helicopters did more to FAN the fire DOWN that northern slope of the ‘Chimney Tops’ ( and start the rapid spread of the fire )… just like it remains possible that the ROTOR WASH from Helicopter N14HX is what actually caused the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire to ‘escape’ from THAT ‘ridgetop’ and burn DOWN into the massive fuel bed near Yarnell.
The following video also contains footage of Masson watching the ‘news’ on Monday evening as Gatlinburg was burning, and realizing that the video he shot the day before was of the same fire that had now ‘escaped’ the National Park.
YouTube Video Title: Forest Fire Pray For Gatlinburg
Published: Nov 29, 2016 ( the day after the ‘blowup’ the evening of Monday, November 28, 2016 )
YouTube Username: “Life of Masson” ( Masson Corlette )
YouTube Video Description:
Gatlinburg Forest Fire. We were some of the last people to hike the trails before this historic event! Here is my video tribute to Gatlinburg. Its in big danger. We were probably some of the last people to hike the trails before this forest fire.
Direct link to the VIDEO itself…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJFxrRpa350
What’s actually shown in this 4 minute and 32 second video…
————————————————————————————
+0:00: A ‘montage’ of pre-fire scenes in/around Gatlinburg.
+0:30: Masson’s friend jumping off a bridge into a creek.
+0:37: They are at a ‘sign’ at the start of the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail. The sign says…
CHIMNEY TOPS TRAIL
Road Prong Trail: 0.9
Chimney Tops: 2.0
+0:45: He films another sign on the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail that says…
BE ADVISED: To see the view at the summit, you must climb these rocks.
Very slippery when wet. Climb at your own risk.
( The sign also has a photo of the actual ‘Chimney Tops’ summit ).
+0:49: Video title overlay says “VLOG 9 NOVEMBER 28”
Masson talks to the camera and says he has only now discovered that Gatlinburg is currently being evacuated ( on Monday evening )… and has only now realized that the ‘wildfire’ he filmed the day before ( Sunday, November 27, 2016 ) out at ‘Chimney Tops’ is now the fire that has moved into Gatlinburg.
He also says ( to the camera ) that they saw “the very start of the wildfire”, but this is not correct. Masson was ( apparently ) unaware that this ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire stared FOUR DAYS earlier than his Sunday video, at around 5:20 PM on Wednesday, November 23, 2016.
+1:22: The beginning of his ‘video clips’ from the previous day, Sunday, November 27, 2016, when they were there at the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail.
His friend is ‘filming’ as Masson hops on the retaining wall of the parking lot for the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail and then points right up to the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire seen in the background.
Masson says: “There’s no flames, though. We saw flames earlier.”
Then his friend ( who is filming ) says: “I think they’re on the other side”.
Video then zooms in on the ‘fire’ and now they all say “I see some flames”.
Someone says: “Let’s go up there”.
Then someone else says: “All right. We’re gonna hike up Chimney Tops in the smoke”.
And then they DID.
Upcoming video clips show them at the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ a short while later.
+1:50: A split-screen with a still photo from Masson’s Sunday video at the top and a photo of the entire Gatlinburg area on fire Monday night.
+1:53: Video returns to Masson in a room Monday night reporting about the fire burning into Gatlinburg.
Masson says ( to his friend )…
“How did it?…. Why didn’t they JUMP on that ( fire )?”
His friend says… “I was like lookin’ at stuff last night ( Sunday night ) and
it was like… Yea… it’s pretty much contained… we’re pretty much done.”
Masson responds: “Oh my God”.
His friend then says… “They we’re sayin’ it was like a hundred percent contained, basically”.
Mason turns to the camera again and says…
“The mountain that me and Cameron literally climbed, where he… I’ll throw in the clips… he jumped off a bridge into the lake… and then I went and climbed the summit to the very top…
+3:07: Masson now inserts his ‘video clips’ of his ‘climb’ up to the ‘Chimney Tops’ the day before ( Sunday afternoon, November 27, 2016 ).
+3:15: ( Resuming his narration on Monday night )… that mountain probably caused… like one of the best days of our lives… and now it’s totally engulfed. Rest in peace…Gatlinburg.
+3:25: More ‘hiking’ video clips from the day before, including the same ‘video clips’ from the top of the ‘Chimney Tops’ that Masson already inserted previously.
+3:55: Various ‘still photos’ of the fire burning in and around Gatlinburg.
+4:01: A repeat of the ‘split screen’ showing the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire as seen in Masson’s Sunday afternoon video… and below it a shot of the fire burning into the Gatlinburg area on Monday evening.
+4:06: An ‘evacuation’ photo showing cars driving on roads surrounded by fire.
+4:32: Video ends.
————————————————————————————
Correction for one of the ‘locations’ reported above in Masson Corlette’s video.
At +1:22 in the video, where Masson has inserted his video footage of the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire as it was on Sunday afternoon and seen from the ‘Highway’… he and his friends are NOT actually at the ‘Chimney Tops Trailhead’ parking lot. That video footage was shot from the WEST end of the ‘Chimney Tops Overlook’ parking area, which is to the north and to the west of the ‘Chimney Tops Trailhead’ parking lot itself.
At +1:37 in the video, Masson Corlette is standing exactly here beside that stone wall at that ‘west’ end of the ‘Chimney Tops’ overlook on Highway U.S. 441 South…
35.638811, -83.494455
If you click the following link… a RED BALLOON will appear exactly where Masson is standing at +1:37 into his own video…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B038'19.7%22N+83%C2%B029'40.0%22W/@35.6388153,-83.4966437,753m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.638811!4d-83.494455
Also notice ( at this +1:37 mark ) that the SUN is about to set behind the RIDGE to the WEST of where Masson and his friends are ‘filming’ the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire.
That means it was LATE AFTERNOON on Sunday, November 27, 2016 when this video was being shot.
So that means that either this video was shot AFTER the ‘FOUR Helicopters’ had been ‘working the fire’ that Sunday ( as Cassius Cash says they were )… or the Helicopters had not even ARRIVED even by LATER AFTERNOON on Sunday.
Also notice in this video shot in the LATE AFTERNOON on Sunday that there is NO WIND to speak of. The leaves are barely moving and even when the camera pans down to the parking lot, NONE of the fallen leaves there are ‘blowing around’ at all.
But now that we know this video was shot from the ‘Chimney Tops Overlook’ versus the ‘Chimney Tops Trailhead’ parking lot… it’s important to note that Masson and his friends are ‘filming’ from the exact spot where, less than 12 hours from the time that video was taken, the fire was going to be ‘burning over’ that very area where they are standing.
The ‘Chimney Tops Picnic Area’ is actually down ‘below’ them, and between the camera position and the ‘Chimney Tops’ fire there in the distance.
It has been reported that this ‘Chimney Tops Picnic Area’ and the ‘Chimney Tops Overlook Area’ were ‘burning over’ as early as 7:00 AM the following morning ( Monday morning ).
So the ‘fire’ seen in Masson’s video was ‘about’ to come ( in less than 12 hours ) right down that slope of the Chimney Tops and RIGHT AT THAT LOCATION where they were filming that Sunday afternoon.
On Monday… the fire ‘spread’ rapidly ( to the north ) and after burning through that ‘Chimney Tops Picnic and Overlook Area ( where Masson shot his video ) and by 11:30 AM it was already up near the ‘Twin Creeks Piclnic Area’, just near the northern border of the Park and the southern boundary of Gatlinburg.
WTK said (concerning the Masson video
+1:50: A split-screen with a still photo from Masson’s Sunday video at the top and a photo of the entire Gatlinburg area on fire Monday night.
The picture you describe as “the Gatlinburg area on fire Monday night” is not Gatlinburg at all.
That picture is NOT even the Chimney Tops 2 fire. It is the Walland fire, taken by Bruce McCammish.
I thought it was chimney tops late on Sunday night, when I first saw it. But it is another fire that occurred near the Chimney fire. I believe it crowned also.
Well I was hoping for some great footage that would add to the story.
Masson inserted hiking footage that was NOT from 11/27. There are numerous people on the trail, the swimming, jumping in creek footage is completely unrelated. But most importantly, Masson has no facial hair when standing on the Chimney Trail, compared to standing in parking lot, or later, while hiking out the AT to sleep in his hammock (his next video) where he explains why they did not go up Chimney Tops, as originally planned.
Great catch on noting the sun setting. It does look to be later in the day. Probably after the helicopters were finished dropping water. Could anyone opine on the effect of the water dropping and how it could have / or could not have pushed the fire down the mountain. Like, could the weight of the water have blasted burning material lower on the mountain, igniting fires lower down the mountain? Would this have been a strategy to get the fire off the top, lessening the chance of the fire spreading by spotting when the wind storm hit it?
WTK. I am not going to link the personal accounts of what happened to ignite the Cobbely Knob fire now.
Also it should be noted that there were leaves still hanging from the trees at the Chimney Tops overlook. The leaves were nearly a month late dropping from the trees in the Southeast this year. The fire moved from the Chimneys to lower elevations in and around Gatlinburg where there would have been (presumably) as many or more leaves still curing on the trees.
This fire is said to have crowned, which is atypical of fires in this area. But this happened on a couple fires near the Smokies prior to the Chimney Tops 2 fire.
Reply to calvin post on December 16, 2016 at 5:58 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> This fire is said to have crowned, which is atypical of fires
>> in this area.
But NOT ‘atypical’ of Wildfires in general in similar terrain/areas under similar conditions and fuel loads, and the ( predicted ) ‘HIGH WINDS’.
>> calvin…
>>
>> But this happened on a couple fires near the Smokies prior
>> to the Chimney Tops 2 fire.
Exactly.
So ‘atypical’ or not… even that ‘Reporter’ at the news conference asked GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash WHY he had not taken the same actions that others had even recently… in that same area… on other fires…
From the press conference the morning of Tuesday, November 29, 2016…
——————————————————————————-
Reporter 1: Why not… why not then EVACUATE?… and I don’t know if that would be your call. Why not EVACUATE?… like… in North Carolina… I can tell you I covered the fire… uhm… ‘Party Rock’ fire. They evacuated VERY aggressively… and no one DIED, thankfully, in that… those fires.
( NOTE: Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters again raises his right had and tries to touch Cassius Cash on the arm and get him to ‘step aside’… but Cash again stays right where he is… ready to answer this ‘next question’. Waters just looks ‘pissed off’ now… and remains that way until he jumps in shortly and will abruptly END the press conference ).
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Well… first… I don’t have…
Reporter 1: Similar to High Tops…
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Right…
Reporter 1: …the fire’s up HIGH.
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Right. So I… first… I don’t have the jurisdiction… uh… to… to evacuate a town…
( Moments later, Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters pushes on Cassius Cash’s right arm to get him away from the podium and the microphone, and then Waters ‘announces’ that the press conference is now OVER. )
————————————————————————–
Calvin,
You are correct about the leaves still in the hardwood trees this Fall, both in the Northeaster and Southeastern Regions of the US.
I was on fires in Kentucky and Alabama and traveled through Georgia and noticed the same thing.
That added fuel loading, when they do drop, will make for an interesting Spring fire season.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 14, 2016 at 1:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This is a link to a December 13, 2016 article titled “The Latest: Cell towers
>> down; no fire evacuation text alert.” Published in Fire Engineering
http://www.fireengineering.com/ap-news/2016/12/13/the-latest-cell-towers-down-no-fire-evacuation-text-alert.html?cmpid=enl_FE_FireEngineeringDaily_2016-12-14&[email protected]&eid=328758895&bid=1614792
Thank you for that link.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It now appears that the reason the cell phone evacuation order(s) did not go
>> out was because the Gatlinburg cell towers were ‘out of service.’ Is this what
>> really happened or a CYA excuse?
>>
>> “Officials say a TEXT MESSAGE WARNING residents to evacuate amid
>> deadly wildfires WASN’T SENT because CELL TOWERS WENT OUT
>> OF SERVICE BEFORE AGENCY LEADERS HAD A CHANCE TO AGREE
>> ON THE MESSAGE’S WORDING.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
>>
>> So there are at least two issues here:
>>
>> (1) Cell towers were ‘out of service’ and
>> (2) agency leaders agreeing on the text message wording. Allegedly.
According to another article written just after the Monday, November 28, 2016 disaster stemming from the ‘Chimey Tops 2’ fire… what REALLY happened there was NOT so much any ‘disagreement’ about the ‘wording’… but just one more ‘fuck up’ on the part of Sevier County Emergency Management and TEMA ( Tennesee Emergency Management Agency ).
And even just this one particular ‘fuck up’ represents just ONE of the HUGE “Lessons to Learn” that can/should come out of this ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire disaster.
According to that article ( link is below )… what REALLY happened is that whoever the IDIOT was at what the article calls the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ who ‘composed the message’ they wanted TEMA to ‘broadcast’ to ‘mobile devices’ had NO IDEA that the ‘message’ could NOT be more than 90 characters long.
So when that ‘message’ was submitted circa 8:30 PM… and TEMA noticed it was ‘too long’ to be transmitted to mobile devices… TEMA representatives decided that rather then send a ‘truncated’ message… their ‘solution’ was to NOT send anything at all.
Indeed… even though the ‘message’ that was submitted by ‘Sevier County’ officials COULD have been ‘broken up’ in multiple transmits ( each 90 characters or less )… TEMA decided not to do that, either.
All TEMA did was try to ‘recontact’ the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ and inform them that the message was ‘too long’… and then try to get them to resubmit a shorter message that they WOULD be able to transmit to ‘mobile devices’… but that’s when what THEY called ‘power and communications interruptions’ took place and so they were unable to ‘work this out’ for several hours.
By then, of course… many people had already DIED.
TEMA’s ‘excuse’ ( after the fact ) for not realizing that SOME kind of ‘evacuation notice’ NEEDED to be sent RIGHT AWAY ( when requested, at 8:30 PM ) was that rather than send out a message that might have been ‘confusing’… they decided it was better to not send anything at all ( at that time ).
SIDENOTE: The REASON that ’emergency message’ to mobile devices CANNOT be more than 90 characters ( for any one single transmit ) is because the only feasible way to accomplish this is still to just use the old original ‘candy-bar phone’ DoCoMo ‘text’ messaging system as developed by the Japanese when ‘cell phones’ first hit the market.
What most people don’t understand ( but anyone who calls themselves an ‘Emergency Management Official SHOULD ) is that this original DoCoMo 90-character ‘text messaging’ system was developed BEFORE there were any ‘smartphones’ or any ‘cell phones’ capable of an ‘Internet Connection’.
DoCoMo 90-character ‘Text’ messages are messages that can be ’embedded’ in some extra space that the Japanese ‘found’ hidden in the WNPP design ( Wireless Network Packet Protocol ).
But that ‘extra space’ in the ‘cellular radio packets’ themselves can only hold up to 90 text-based characters.
And that is still true TODAY.
If you do NOT have a ‘smartphone’… or even if you DO have a ‘smartphone’ but you do NOT have a ‘data plan’ and you are NOT able to have an ‘Internet Connection’… the only ‘text messages’ you can receive are these small ‘Cellular Packet Network based’ messages ( and NOT Internet ‘messages’ like email or FaceTweets or whatever )
EAS ( Emergency Alert System )
The system that sends ‘alerts’ out to TV and radios ( including weather alert radios ).
Transmissions are handled by the ‘National Weather Service’.
WEA ( Wireless Emergency Alert ) message.
The system that has the ability to send SHORT ( 90 characters or less ) ‘text’ message to all ‘Network Connected’ mobile devices. In Tennessee… transmissions of WEA messages are handled through TEMA ( Tennesee Emergency Management Agency ).
So that is what someone who calls themselves ( and is paid to be ) a ‘communications’ person in an Emergency Management Agency in Sevier County did NOT know that tragic night.
This person did NOT ‘understand’ that the same message they wanted to be sent out via EAS was TOO LONG to be sent to ‘mobile devices’ via the WEA system… and the consternation that resulted from this ‘fuck up’ was the reason that no timely ’emergency evacuation notice’ was ever transmitted to mobile devices that night.
WBIR NEWS
Article Title: Evacuation notices for Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge never sent to mobile devices
Published: 7:55 PM. EST December 03, 2016 – By: Becca Habegger
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/wildfire/evacuation-notices-for-gatlinburg-pigeon-forge-never-went-to-mobile-devices/362281309
From that article…
———————————————————————————————-
Around 9 p.m., Sevier County and Gatlinburg officials coordinated with the National Weather Service to issue an evacuation notice for the city of Gatlinburg, through something called the Emergency Alert System.
That EAS warning is the message that interrupts your TV program or radio station during, for example, a tornado warning.
Or a fire storm.
That went out at 9:03 p.m. Monday on TV, radio and weather radio.
The EAS, however, does NOT have a mobile text alert component.
That’s according to Anthony Cavallucci, the warning coordination meteorologist at the National Weather Service in Morristown.
That means people relying solely on their phones got NO evacuation alert on their mobile device.
What people did get was another kind of alert at 11:46 p.m., asking “Sevier Co residents please stay off mobile devices unless emergency.”
That text alert was accompanied by the same shrill tone that sounds during an Amber Alert.
Those types of notices are issues through a system called Wireless Emergency Alerts.
This system, launched nationwide less than five years ago, delivers messages to people in emergency situations, including tornado warnings and flash flooding. According to FEMA, the WEA messages are not affected by network congestion.
The Tennessee Emergency Management Agency issues WEA messages here in the Volunteer State.
Another alert was sent out Monday night: an evacuation order for Pigeon Forge. Like the Gatlinburg evacuation order, it was sent through the Emergency Alert System. Also like the Gatlinburg evacuation notice, it was NOT delivered to any mobile device – only broadcast on TV, radio and weather radio.
So why, one might ask, did officials not send the two evacuation notices via the WEA system, which rings the tones and is unaffected by network congestion?
As TEMA spokesperson Dean Flener explained, “It could’ve been sent, but it would not have been the responsible thing to do because you could not give further instructions as to what people should do to evacuate, especially those who don’t live in the city and know the routes.”
That’s because WEA messages, he said, are limited to 90 characters.
“If you say to a visitor, ‘You need to evacuate Gatlinburg’ without giving them any further instructions to say, you know, to take this route or go this way, which you can’t do in 90 characters, you’re really going to put them in more danger,” Flener said.
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So the CYA coming from TEMA spokesman Dean Flener regarding them choosing to NOT send ANY kind of ’emergency evacuation notice’ to mobile phones ( even after being requested to do so ) was that he considered it ‘irresponsible’ to just send some kind of “evacuate now” message without telling people exactly “how to evacuate” ( in 90 characters or less ).
So they ( TEMA ) DECIDED not to send anything at all, when requested to do so.
Followup…
Yes… it was someone’s fault at the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ that night for NOT being familiar with the systems they were trying to use and for NOT knowing that ‘mobile device’ WEA messages had to be 90 characters or less… but there’s plenty of blame left over for TEMA as well.
Their own statements after-the-fact PROVE that there were ‘no communications problems’ ( yet ) at the time they RECEIVED the instructions from the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ to send out ‘mobile alerts’… and that they DID ‘receive’ the message that was SUPPOSED to be sent ( circa 8:30 PM ).
But whatever was then ( supposedly ) preventing them from ‘recontacting’ the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ just to tell them the ‘message was too long’ and to try and get them to ‘submit another message’… that should NOT have prevented them from realizing this was an EMERGENCY… and to use their own brain cells and send out their OWN EMERGENCY MESSAGE as quickly as possible.
They did not ( use their own brain cells ).
And people DIED because of that.
Caveat for everything above…
ALL of these ‘last minute’ attempts to send ‘evacuation notices’ ( regardless of the ‘fuck ups’ and or equipment failures at THAT time ) were still coming WAY TOO LATE.
The ‘overall fuck up’ that evening was that everyone involved WAITED TOO LONG to even BEGIN to transmit ‘Mandatory Evacuation Notices’ in every possible way.
Those ‘evacuation notices’ should have been going out HOURS before they even started to ‘try’ and send them.
What BEGAN to happen at 6:30 PM ( the ember storm ) was completely, and totally PREDICTABLE for HOURS prior to when it actually began.
This is a link to a December 13, 2016 article titled “The Latest: Cell towers down; no fire evacuation text alert.” Published in Fire Engineering
It now appears that the reason the cell phone evacuation order(s) did not go out was because the Gatlinburg cell towers were ‘out of service.’ Is this what really happened or a CYA excuse?
“Officials say a TEXT MESSAGE WARNING residents to evacuate amid deadly wildfires WASN’T SENT because CELL TOWERS WENT OUT OF SERVICE BEFORE AGENCY LEADERS HAD A CHANCE TO AGREE ON THE MESSAGE’S WORDING.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
So there are at least two issues here: (1) Cell towers were ‘out of service’ and (2) agency leaders agreeing on the text message wording. Allegedly.
“In a news conference Tuesday, Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller said that on Nov. 28 at 8:30 p.m. John Mathews of the Sevier County Emergency Management Agency tried to call the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency to discuss sending the text. Miller said that’s about when two cell towers went down.”
“Miller said TEMA tried to reconnect to get approval of the language of the alert, but couldn’t, and didn’t send the message because the wording wasn’t approved.”
Reconnect? Reconnect with the cell towers or reconnect with the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency officials?
“Miller said an inappropriate message could have evacuated people toward the fire, instead of away from it.”
“Officials went door-to-door to evacuate people, used social media and news releases, and sounded a downtown siren with a spoken message.”
“Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters says there will be a comprehensive evaluation of the alert system, among other issues.”
___
“10 a.m.
“Local officials estimate that deadly wildfires in East Tennessee have caused more than $500 million in damage.
“Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters released the estimate Tuesday for the wildfires in the Gatlinburg area that killed 14 people.
“Officials say 2,460 structures were destroyed or damaged, including more than 2,100 homes and almost 60 businesses destroyed.”
“Also on Tuesday, Deputy Superintendent of Great Smoky Mountains National Park Clay Jordan said officials believe there was NO WAY TO CONTROL THE FIRE IN THE PARK BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“NO WAY TO CONTROL the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.
No way to control the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28? Really? There seemed to be plenty of time and ample opportunities to do so.
“Jordan also said there was NO NUMBER OF FIREFIGHTERS OR FIRE TRUCKS that could have stopped the spread of the fires IN THOSE WIND CONDITIONS, which reached gusts about 87 miles per hour.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
This would likely be an accurate statement based on several factors: the ongoing and historical drought; the significant wind speeds; significant fuel loadings; the sheer number of structures with little or no Firewise mitigation; and the massive, ubiquitous ember showers
Once again, it helps to send the link.
http://www.fireengineering.com/ap-news/2016/12/13/the-latest-cell-towers-down-no-fire-evacuation-text-alert.html?cmpid=enl_FE_FireEngineeringDaily_2016-12-14&[email protected]&eid=328758895&bid=1614792
Robert,
As in Yarnell’s Tenderfoot fire, it appears that cell towers were not maintained in a FireWise manner. It also appears from the news coverage that evacuation plans for fire are inherently more chaotic than for flood or other hazards whose movements can be more easily predicted. Add to that, multiple jurisdictions with little to no knowledge of current conditions, it was bound to be a mess. It might have helped if there had been daily updates on the fire perimeter, which I was unable to find until after the blowup.
It seems that officials all over the country have failed to understand the essential part that cell communications play in our lives. Moms no longer iron in front of a tv or radio all day to hear a notice, We are on Sirius rather than local radio, and we don’t have neighbor-to-neighbor networks to look after elders. And forget land lines. We need to harden cell service, it’s not just a luxury any more.
The touristic areas are even worse off because there is a negative effect on tourism of posted safety warning signs and many roads cleared 300ft or more on both sides to assure passibility in a fire. And it’s costly to do all this for a 100 year event. A minority of those staying in the area are true locals, so they are unfamiliar with their choices of roads, even when they do have a choice, although many areas only had a single way out. The way city officials see the situation is that evacuations spell huge losses to the whole area, so their butts are on the line if they pull the alarm too soon or unnecessarily. Again, there is not a great depth of fire experience in a rain forest.
If the NPS has a “”let it burn” policy, the locals need to know what that means to them. Cassius Cash is correct that there is no way to stop a fire at the border of the park, but I fear that the local FDs did not grok that.
As bad as it was, given the speed and breadth of the blowup, it’s miraculous that so few people died.
Muzzy. I would go so far as to say the evacuations were NOT ordered because of the tourism industry. Hell even the town mayor Mike Werner, owned a large business there. He owned Highlands Condominiums, which was destroyed.
If only the rain had arrived 8 hours earlier. I live pretty close to Gatlinburg, Everyone in the area had been waiting on that rain for a week
Calvin,
I’m sorry for the losses of all in the area, including your beautiful Smokies. I hope the area rebounds quickly.
The emphasis on tourism seems to have extended to after the tragedy, as well. I followed a few local Facebook pages to see if they would offer more details about the fire, but they seemed determined to let the world know they were open for business with little or no reference to the fire or any attendant closures or inconveniences.
I have a lot of sympathy for the local NPS and civilian authorities. They have been allowed to rely on the rain in the past. From now on, though, they and all in the rest of the country need to incorporate lessons learned to avoid problems in the future. We will never be 100%, but it seems from what little I know that each step had it’s own preventable failures.
I’m beginning to understand why this new blameless CRP investigation system has become popular. It is more important to find out exactly what happened than to castigate well intentioned, inexperienced administrators. Anyone who believes that they or a colleague will face charges will be loathe to come forward. We need all the details and a complete timeline, not accusations and second guessing.
A word about tourist business. I think some people look down on certain businesses as though they are frivolous or pointless, but it’s good to remember that those jobs are very important to those who depend on them. The mayor and others surely benefited more handsomely than the chambermaids and waiters, but all of them, as well as first responders, linemen, and countless more, depend on the revenue and the taxes they bring in.
Giving tourists a carefree experience while keeping the city running is an art requiring judgement and finesse, and they don’t always get it right. Sometimes people die in traffic accidents, drown, get eaten by crocs, struck by lightning. This was a tragedy for sure, but as we look at each of the deaths, at all the decisions, we will likely see that some of them would have been hard to avoid, or that the individuals themselves should have known better than take actions they did. In California, people, frequently older people, stubbornly refuse to leave or go back for pets or mementos. They underestimate the time it takes to get out, or they fail to anticipate the effect of smoke even in the absence of flames.
I fear that the snarky, disparaging tone we see often here on IM actively discourages participation in investigations. We need a better way if we want to move forward.
Muzzy,
You posted: “… evacuation plans for fire are inherently more chaotic than for flood or other hazards whose movements can be more easily predicted. Add to that, multiple jurisdictions with little to no knowledge of current conditions, it was bound to be a mess.”
You are absolutely correct. ‘They’ usually wait way too long to make the call. Regarding the multiple, local jurisdictions, they SHOULD have had plenty of local knowledge of the weather conditions.
What we generally see is their denial of the obvious – it is NOT normal and out of the normal realm, but few rarely recognize it and act accordingly. ‘They’ are the frog in the cold water heated up and we, the visiting outsiders there to assist, are the frog in the boiling water, saying WTF, aren’t you seeing what’s happening or going to happen here?
Your point on CELL PHONE communication is so true.
You posted: “I’m beginning to understand why this new blameless CRP investigation system has become popular. It is more important to find out exactly what happened than to castigate well intentioned, inexperienced administrators. Anyone who believes that they or a colleague will face charges will be loathe to come forward. We need all the details and a complete timeline, not accusations and second guessing.”
This is where we part My Dear. I feel the CRaP ‘process’ has SOME good points, however, they do not go far enough into one’s Decision Making and resultant Human Failures.
.
I wonder if, when Cash says there was no way to fight the fire within the park, he meant that there was no way to do so within his NPS rules and constraints.
“GRSM Wildland Fire Management Goals
The Park’s fire management goals are to:
A. Protect human life, communities, and resources from the adverse effects of wildfire without compromising safety.
B. Maintain and restore fire adapted ecosystems using appropriate tools and techniques in a manner that will provide sustainable, ecological and social benefits.
C. Integrate knowledge generated through fire and natural resource research into fire management priorities, decisions and actions.
D. Integrate fire as a natural process into the Park’s ecosystem to the fullest extent possible.
E. Communicate and coordinate with interagency organizations and other stakeholders to pursue common goals, programs and projects.
F. Build and promote organizational effectiveness by building program capacity, leadership, and effective management practices.”
Umm, they said: ” Integrate fire as a natural process into the Park’s ecosystem to the fullest extent possible……& maintain/restore fire adapted ecosystems” I say:
Told ya (is there an echo in here?) T O L D Y A TOLDYA ToldYa toldya………
The GSMNP has 2 self-declared options from which to choose in taking action in the event of a wildfire in the park according to their own plan they’ve written.
(my interpretation here)
#1. Do nothing
#2. Do a little more than nothing…maybe
Never ever take my thoughts as the last word on anything. Look into it yourself & come to you own conclusion. Here ya go:
https://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=28071&MIMEType=application%252Fpdf&filename=GRSM%20Draft%20Fire%20Management%20Plan%20Environmental%20Assessment%2Epdf&sfid=69457
https://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=28071&MIMEType=application%252Fmsword&filename=Fire%20Mgmt%20EA%20Press%20Release%2Edoc&sfid=69452
Read that document & let me know if you believe I’m full of it. Thanks!
Back to the great outdoors now…chores to do. woodsman chores…because there’s no free lunch, ya know.
Woodsman
Oh & where is this ‘Rain Forest’ in the state of Tennessee located exactly? I’d really like to check it out since I never knew of it’s existence. Thanks!
W
Hi Woodsman,
Actually, temperate rain forest, most of which are costal. The Appalachian ones are pretty special:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperate_rainforest
Regarding NPS fire policy, it seems as I had feared. The policy might be questionable vis a vis human caused fire even if fire was completely containable in wilderness, but with the WUI growing…
Maybe that is just the way it has to be: uncompromising policy in the park and let the WUI managers do what needs to be done to stay safe when the WUI gets wiped out by escaping fire. Otherwise, forcing the forest to consider the WUI will turn the park into a rural Central Park or Botanical Garden.
Hard choices…
BTW, I haven’t forgotten about our discussion on global warming. I have been doing research on the evidence, along with the usual holiday distractions, but I hope to have a thoughtful reply soon.
Muzzy,
Count me on in the ‘Global Warming’ discussion. I look forward to your “thoughtful reply.”
**
** OLDER OF THE TWO TEENAGERS CHARGED IN ‘CHIMNEY TOPS 2’ FIRE
** IS THE SON OF AN ANDERSON COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE EMPLOYEE
I still can’t find out which ‘local’ ( Gatlinburg area ) TV station was ‘announcing’
even WHILE the tragedy was taking place ( on Monday evening, November 28, 2016 )
that the ’cause’ of the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire appeared to be “kids tossing matches
on the trail”… but new details emerging about the ‘arrests’ appears to confirm
that was ‘accurate information’… however that TV station heard it.
One of the ‘juveniles’ arrested also appears to be the son of an Anderson County
( Tennessee ) Sheriff’s Office employee…
The Knoxville News Sentinel
Article Title: Sources: Teens toying with matches started Gatlinburg wildfire.
Published: 6:48 p.m. EST December 9, 2016 – By: Jamie Satterfield
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2016/12/09/sources-teens-toying-matches-started-fatal-wildfire/95210356/
—————————————————————————
The teenagers charged with setting the fire in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that ultimately spread to torch thousands of homes and businesses and kill 14 people were horsing around with matches, sources say.
The boys, ages 17 and 15, were charged this week in Sevier County Juvenile Court with aggravated arson in the Nov. 28 wildfires that shut down the city of Gatlinburg at the height of its winter tourism season and damaged or destroyed more than 2,400 homes and businesses. The death toll included two children and a woman who died fleeing the flames
Sources familiar with the teenagers and the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly about the case say the two boys are friends and live in Anderson County. The boys were hiking on the Chimney Tops trail in the park on Nov. 23 and tossing lit matches onto the ground around the trail, the sources said. A hiker unwittingly captured an image of the boys walking away from the trail with smoke in the background, and the teenagers’ clothing helped authorities identify them, according to sources.
The oldest boy is the son of an Anderson County Sheriff’s Office employee, according to sources. The News Sentinel has learned 4th Judicial District Public Defender Ed Miller has been tapped to represent the 17-year-old, while veteran Knoxville defense attorney Gregory P. Isaacs has been retained by the family of the younger teen. Miller did not return a phone call Friday. Isaacs would not say whether he represents the boy.
—————————————————————————
And… to the reporter’s credit… he ENDS the article by making TWO things clear to the reader…
1. The fire(s) on the Chimney Tops trail STARTED on Wednesady, November 23, 2016… FIVE DAYS BEFORE the fire escaped the Smoky Mountain National Park and killed 14 innocent people.
2. Any charges of ‘murder’ or ‘manslaughter’ that might be brought against the teens will then HAVE to address the issue(s) surrounding WHY Smoky Mountain Park Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ ( and others ) did NOTHING to ‘put out’ and/or even ‘contain’ the fire for FIVE DAYS, with known ‘extreme drought’ and ‘extreme fire conditions’ present in the Park.
From the END of the article…
—————————————————————————
Authorities have said they believe last week’s deadly wildfires began with the Nov. 23 blaze at Chimney Tops. The fire initially did not pose a threat to Gatlinburg or surrounding areas, but on Nov. 28, hurricane-style winds hit Sevier County and spread the embers of the fire already burning in the park to lower elevations. Prosecutors would need to show the boy’s actions – by playing with matches – directly resulted in the deaths of the fire victims. Any action or inaction by the National Park Service in handling the Chimney Tops blaze would come into play should felony murder charges be sought.
—————————————————————————
“Any action or inaction by the National Park Service in handling the Chimney Tops blaze would come into play should felony murder charges be sought.”
Well…I think this does fall into the category of what I thought it might be in the first place…stupid young people screwing around as opposed to “real” arsonists. So…I do think the fire was a by-product of another activity.
That is NOT how arsonists start fires. That is how stupid young people start fires which they can also do with fireworks and a whole bunch of other ways.
Like I also said, it doesn’t really make any difference to the dead or their loved ones, but there is a difference.
There really isn’t any difference here with the anecdote I related about the Boy Scouts dropping burning toilet paper onto bone dry organic material, the end result was just as predictable except one resulted in a burned down high tech decomposition outhouse and the other one was…horrific.
However, this was Negligent Homicide…kind of like Marsh and Steed did with their crew. Yes, that’s right for you reality deniers out there…just like it.
What happened to the ‘Boy Scouts’?
‘Aggravated arson’ charges ( like the teens in Tennessee )… or just “Stupid Kid’ charges and some time picking up crap on the side of highways?
Nothing, no charges. Just paid 100 grand for the outhouse, they were just stupid kids playin, around. They weren’t bad kids, just being kids. I know everyone is going to want to hang those kids in Tennessee, but without more information on their background as in previous criminal history, they were just being stupid kids without mal intent. Normally you have to have “intent” to violate the law not just “stupid”
Once again, I have a lot of questions about who did or do not do what in terms of fire suppression and the appropriate evacuation orders given in a timely manner. Connunity leaders are supposed to have brains that are fully developed and functioning at the optimal level.
That was an expensive outhouse–100grand? Dung will burn once dehydrated–human feces as well–. One of the best desert methods to make an outhouse is to bury a fifty gallon drum–or thirty gallon one if needing less capacity. Then cover with your toilet seat–and if you are safe enough behind a bush pile or want to put up posts and some canvas–then when in purgatory country–for example Dolan Springs area, the dung will dehydrate and once half full or so, light a match to the toilet paper and you won’t have to worry about cleaning out the barrel. It will burn like a wick and smolder–stink like hell so you ought to stay away for a day or so and use a latrine. I know this from experience–and information that might come in handy for some down the line–maybe even some desert rats out there now. If the toilet above happens to burn, no $100,000 value there. I think only government sponsored toilets are worth that much.
It was new space age decomposition outhouse like they build now in most places. They can handle a lot of use because they are designed to dry everything out so everything just turns to dust…wait a minute WTF, I don’t work for for the government anymore, why am I defending how much they spend on a fuckin’ out house for YOU PEOPLE To shit in that doesn’t smell bad that you don”t have to pump out?
ew topic here…but thank you Sonny at last minute notice for allowing me to drive to Mississippi to see my 106 y.o. pal and then swing up to Tennessee…I needed this moment…thank you
It was just handled as a civil case against the Boy Scouts. The leaders were supposed to be superbing the kids and these were kids not borderline adapts. The federal system is not set up to handle juvenile cases those and thos cases are always wrong eferred to be he state who set up to handle juveniles. So depending on state standards for adaults and previous criminal history these kids might get another chance or they might be in really big trouble. But since it sounds like they are local kids they and their families are probably in some really deep shit.
Supervising the kids
Borderline adults
I guess what I am trying to say is that the circumstances of this case sound unusual as an arson case. I mean two young men hiking on a trail casually flipping burning matches out in broad daylight in front of other people who are taking their photographs? Did!nt those other people say “hey…knock that shit off!” And call in the rangers I like RIGHT NOW! And then start putting little fires out? There is a lot we don’t know.
‘
That is a good question Gary–Why would you allow kids to be flipping matches and just photograph them?
We just had another report of a death here–young gal about 43 yr.old found dead after 4 days missing–up near the towers about quarter mile up the hill from the east side of Yarnell. I thought it might be due to hiking in the retardant zone, but there is no report of foul play.
People were calling to see if it was Joy–no she is still in there doing her investigations–even looking into this particular death now. Official story is that it appears that no foul play involved.
Thanks for the birthday well wishes. I did enjoy some time with my Son and grandson–then we took a trip to Phoenix and spent a nice visit with my Daughter–other son and grandson–there are other grandsons, granddaughters scattered about as well. I had a few Guiness–Joy drove home- we got in late but I was out fixing fence this morning so my watch dogs don’t get out. Seems they were climbing boulders but I fixed that. Here if your pooch gets loose you have snitches that call the sheriff department–they collect huge fines for catching a dog loose no matter how docile that dog is. The dog is incarcerated, you are given a big bill for the incarceration and a big fine is added to that. It helps pay the dog catchers wages and sweeten the coffers of the county. The old time way of contacting your neighbor or helping him get his pet back is no longer the way many people do things. It is pick up the phone now and call the sheriff. Well, when we see a pooch loose, Joy and I know how the county folks will do so we work hard to find the owner. Fences sometimes get broken, pooches are quick to run off at times and accidents happen–no need to get people into debt just because their pooch goes astray.
One guy was predicting earthquakes by watching stray pet adds. Somehow the dogs and cats do everything to go astray just before earthquakes. Maybe they can hear the low rumbles deep in the earth before a quake. My dogs I notice this morning were hot to try to get out because of the Javalina group that passes right in front of our place just about every morning. It will be a good thing they do not get out since a Javalina will make mincemeat out of any dog. My friend’s pit bull was put down twice by javalina and saved only by Jay having shot the Javalina off. The dog both times was laid up over two weeks recovering–attests to a pit bulls determination to kill Javalina and incapability to understand that the little Javalina is not to be messed with.
Gary.
Someone started a fire on top of the Chimneys on 11/13. I do not have any evidence it was the same boys, but it seems like a safe assumption. Maybe not?
If they did set both fires on Chimney Tops, does that make them more on the arson side vs stupid kids?
I think we woulnd still need more information about how the fires were started? For example did they take steps to sneak in and then set the fire then sneak out or were they stupid kids going for a hike and making no effort to hide themselves or their activities?
We need to know what their “intent” was. Did they intend to start a forest fire or where they just doing something stupid like flicking burning matches, they certainly should have known their actions could result in a forest fire, but did theY.
And what was their mental state? Are they mentally challenged? Were they under the influence of drugs or alchohol like I believe a significant portion of the granite mountain crew was.?
Probably. But it think the law is going to treat it the same no matter what, especially with all the damage and deaths.
The authorities will want to compensate for how bad they fucked up by crucifying those young men and for all I know, they deserve to be crucified.?
Gary Olson said…
“That is NOT how arsonists start fires. That is how stupid young people start fires which they can also do with fireworks and a whole bunch of other ways.”
Exactly… and as you also already pointed out earlier… TRUE “pyros” usually ‘work alone’.
Because the Fire Gods made a four day delay to put out the fire, it looks as if again the attitude that certain areas need burn outs. When the opportunity comes in the form of a lightening strike or someone starting a fire either by arson or accident, then the fire is allowed to do its work.
This was seen here in Yarnell as well in both the Yarnell Death Fire and the Yarnell Tenderfoot Fire. In both fires, burnouts and backburns were the order of the day and both fires these burnout situations backfired as far as results–so we have burnouts that are backfires. The Yarnell Death Fire killed 19 in a hurry while the Tenderfoot burnout killed the electric for three days in some areas and cost thousands to repair, burned three structures, and made it necessary to dump hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant along the east side of Yarnell near structures again. That burnout also spread to the North East, threatened Peeples Valley so both Yarnell and Peeples Valley were again under mandatory evacuation orders and a few million more of tax money was now in order to get in a slew of crews to protect Peeples Valley and being it was headed toward Wagooneer community, more tons of retardant were dropped and the newly created fire by burnout was the main focus of wild land fire fighting attention.
So what happened? An arsonist reward of $5000 was put up–the local fire department was touted as heroes that saved Yarnell and to date the arsonist has not been found. If the arsonist is found, just like the teen agers there in the Gatlinburg disaster, you can bet that person or persons will be charged with all the damage–even that done by the local fire department.
I do believe that a wild land division needs to decide how to fight a wild land fire and not a local fire department inexperienced or under experienced in how to fight wild land fires.
All the above is only my opinion. So take it with a grain of salt if you prefer since Joy has yet to get FOIA information on either the Tenderfoot or the Death Fire of June 30,2013 from either the Peeples Valley Fire Department or the local Yarnell Fire Department. Maybe they neglected to keep a record of anything? But perhaps that information and if commercial, then it will be published and the real professional wild land fire fighters of long time experience and wisdom can evaluate their performances
Now when it came to mining–it was a lot more simpler–your performance was well known by what you produced. What I saw produced from both fires here I had to give marks of the poorest of performances. In mining you would have been fired immediately had you produced similarly.
*
Reply to calvin post on December 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Many thanks for the links.
>>
>> But I think Chalet Village is just west of Gatlinburg. It is on the map
>> between Gatlinburg and Cove Mountain.
Yes. You are exactly right. Thanks for correcting me.
Somehow I got ‘turned around’ on exactly where ‘Chalet Village’ is/was.
>> calvin said…
>>
>> The area you are describing is the Cobbely Knob fire.
Correct. I really did get ‘twisted around’ on where ‘Chalet Village’ was, so thanks for pointing that out.
‘Chalet Village’ was, in fact, that area to the NORTHWEST of Gatlinburg itself, and not that area way to the EAST of Gatlinburg ( where the ‘Cobbly Knob Rental Cabins’ are ) where all those other structures were destroyed.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Said to have been started 11/28 night when a power line went down or
>> a transformer blew, cant remember which right now.
Yes. The ‘Inciweb’ page for the ‘Cobbyl Knob Fire’ puts the ‘origin time’ at ‘approximately 6:30 PM’, which is exactly when the really HIGH WINDS hit the area and along with the resulting ’ember storm’… power lines and trees were going down.
But even as of yesterday… the ‘InciWeb’ page for the “Cobbly Knob” says that the ’cause’ of the fire is ‘Human’ ( and not because of a ‘downed power line’ ).
InciWeb page for the “Cobbly Knob” fire in Sevier County, Tennessee…
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5113/
From that page…
———————————————————
Incident Overview
The Cobbly Knob fire is managed by the Southern Area Incident Management
Team along with the Chimney Tops 2 fire near the Great Smoky Mountains
National Park and Gatlinburg, TN.
Basic Information
Current as of: 12/9/2016, 5:53:34 PM
Incident Type: Wildfire
Cause: Human
Date of Origin: Monday, November 28th, 2016 approx. 06:30 PM
Location: TEN MILES east of Gatlinburg, TN
Incident Commander: Mike Dueitt – SA Red Team
Incident Description: Suppression
Current Situation
Total Personnel: 46
Size: 756 Acres
Percent of Perimeter Contained: 96%
Estimated Containment Date: Tuesday December 20th, 2016 approx. 12:00 AM
Fuels Involved: Dormant Brush, Hardwood Slash, Hardwood Litter
Significant Events: Minimal. Smoking and smoldering in heavy fuels.
———————————————————
There is also the following from a news release about the 2 ‘arrests’ that were made.
It seems to suggest that officials ARE considering this ‘Cobbly Knob’ fire to have been CAUSED by the ember storm that was hitting Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge… and that the ‘juveniles’ WILL be charged with causing BOTH fires…
92.3 WNPC RADIO
From their article about the ‘arrests’…
———————————————————
During a Wednesday news conference Prosecutor Dunn announced that the juveniles have been charged with aggravated arson in the case. He declined to release the ages or gender of the defendants. During the course of the investigation, information was developed that the juveniles started the fire at Chimney Tops, and it spread as far north as Cobbly Nob.
———————————————————
“During the course of the investigation, information was developed that the juveniles started the fire at Chimney Tops, and it spread as far north as Cobbly Nob.”
So that sure-as-heck sounds like they ( TBI ) are ‘assuming’ that the ‘Cobbly Knob’ fire WAS started by ’embers’ from the ‘Chimney Tops’ fire ( and not by any downed power line )… and that they ARE going to try and pin BOTH of these ‘fires’ on the ‘juveniles’ they have in custody.
Regarding the ‘stories’ about them ‘lighting matches’… it turns out that appears to have been first reported by a local TV station even AS the ’ember storm’ was starting the evening of Monday, November 28, 2016.
At the beginning of that ‘Escape From Chalet Village’ video that Woodsman posted a link to… ( the one showing Anthony Fulton & Michael Luciano escaping Chalet Village ), there is a reference to “kids playing with matches” in the video itself.
People then left comments about this video ( at both YouTube and the Gatlinburg ‘REDDIT’ site ) saying they assumed that what Mr. Fulton & Mr. Luciano were referring to was something that had aired on a local TV station BEFORE they started their “Escape from Chalet Village”.
** THE VIDEO – ESCAPE FROM CHALET VILLAGE
That Video of the ‘Escape from Chalet Village’ that Woodsman posted a link to is HERE…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGyHu4iX5-Y
————————————————————————
Description: Anthony Fulton & Michael Luciano escaping the inferno of flames
in Chalet Village located in Gatlinburg, TN …
First posted on ‘Facebook’ by ‘Michael Luciano’.
————————————————————————
** THE VIDEO SHOWS THE ‘REED’ CABIN ENGULFED IN FLAMES
Someone usinig the handle ‘2wheelpiracy’ left a ‘comment’ on the original ‘Chalet Village Escape’ video which points out that just before the GREEN ‘City Limit’ sign is seen on the right side of the road… the cabin that is seen completely in flames was, in fact, the ‘Michael and Constance Reed’ residence. At the point in the video where we see the Reed cabin burning, it is very likely that Constance Reed and her two daughters ( 12-year-old Chloe and 9-year-old Lily ) were most likely already dead there at that location where their bodies were eventually found.
—————————————————————————————-
Comment by: 2wheelpiracy
The people that we saw at the top of the mountain. Could that possibly be the Summers family that didnt make it out? And at +7:28 they are passing the Reed’s Residence on Wiley Oakley Dr. right before the green city limit sign on the right. The Cabin on the right down off of the road. Right after he say “every fucking cabin”
—————————————————————————————–
I have my own copy of the ‘video’… and have verified what ‘2wheelpiracy’ is claiming by going ‘frame by frame’… but with just a very slight difference in the ‘times’ They seem to be passing the ‘Reed’ cabin ( at 341 Wiley Oakley Dr. ) at exactly +7:24, four seconds earlier than ‘2wheelpiracy’ said.
And yes… the Reed cabin ( off to their right ) is fully engulfed in flames at this moment they are ‘passing’ it in the video while headed down ‘Wiley Oakley Drive’ to the Gatlinburg ‘Welcome Center’. ( which is where they are when the video ‘ends’ ).
** COMMENTS REFERENCING ‘PLAYING WITH MATCHES’…
Some of these comments are more than a week old, and were posted right after the video appeared…
—————————————————————-
Comment by: Greg Waldrop – 1 week ago
Reports are that someone was striking matches in an area called Chimney Rock (5 to 6 straight miles from town center). 50 to 70 mph winds took it from there.
—————————————————————-
Comment by: Greg Waldrop – 1 week ago
50 to 70 mile an hour swirling winds on Monday is how. Gatlinburg area is not a single mountain. It is a series of peaks and steep valleys winding in all directions. The small fires in the area were contained by the fire fighters but speculation is this was set by someone striking matches on monday in an area called chimney rocks…approximately 5 to 6 straight line miles from the city center. With the high winds and the worst drought in probably 30 years, the mountain was kindling waiting to burn.
—————————————————————-
NOTE: I haven’t been able to find out WHICH local TV station was reporting about the ‘striking matches’ on the very evening of the disaster or… where THEY might have gotten that information even while the disaster was unfolding that evening of November 28, 201
And here are the comments left about ‘kids playing with matches’ on the Gatlinburg REDDIT site and it being ‘announced’ by local media on the very night of the disaster, November 28, 2016…
This is a link to the ‘REDDIT’ thread with the title “How did the fires start?’…
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gatlinburg/comments/5g11n5/how_did_the_fires_start/
From that Gatlinburg REDDIT forum thread…
—————————————————————————————-
Comment from: ALynn1982 – 9 days ago
The guy who video’d his escape from chalet village said it was caused by “an idiot flipping matches on a trail”.
Reply from: skymack – 8 days ago
I was watching the news live the night it moved into town and the reporter who was there said something about someone thinking it would be funny to light and throw matches. Only time I’ve heard about matches being the cause of the fire. The Chalet Village guy said he was watching the news that night. There’s a slight chance that’s where he could have gotten it from…
—————————————————————————————-
WTK
YouTube had a video and it was titled something like fire on the mountain, or burn the mountain down ( I cant remember which). The video started getting attention just a couple days after Gatlinburg was burned. The footage showed a couple or maybe even 3 people on the Chimney Tops trail. People were quickly assuming this was related to the fire. I only watched the video one time before it was removed. I did not see any evidence of them lighting or dropping matches. But I was not looking very close. I didn’t really give it a chance to be important. I did note that the people in the video were young and there footwear didn’t seem that of a hiker.
WTK said
I still can’t find out which ‘local’ ( Gatlinburg area ) TV station was ‘announcing’
even WHILE the tragedy was taking place ( on Monday evening, November 28, 2016 )
that the ’cause’ of the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire appeared to be “kids tossing matches
on the trail”… but new details emerging about the ‘arrests’ appears to confirm
that was ‘accurate information’… however that TV station heard it.
This may be a small issue but give me a second. The reports are that the kids were actually dropping matches “on the trail”. This is important. If the fire was started along the trail, it should have been accessible enough on 11/24 (Thanksgiving) to have been engaged and possibly suppressed? If these kids had scrambled off the trail a couple hundred yards and set the fire or fires, I could understand the lack of access to fight or suppress the fire.
Personally. I do not think the boys will ever be linked to the first Chimney Tops fire. It is almost like it never existed. There is direct evidence that a burning tree was sawed down right along the trail during the first Chimneys fire. The first Chimney fire only grew to 1/4 acre. The second fire was first noted at 1acre. And doubled in size each day until the blow up
There are 2 direct accounts of the fire in Cobbely Knob. Both say the fire started with a downed power line.
And if there was a fire started by embers as early as 6pm in Cobbely knob, That means the fire had flanked Gatlinburg to the east and was now beyond Gatlinburg
Do you have links to those ‘accounts’ of the Cobbly Knob fire definitely being attributed to a ‘downed power line’?
All I’m seeing are more articles saying that the TBI ( Tennessee Bureau of Investigations ) has officially ‘concluded’ that the Cobbly Knob fire was started by ’embers’ blowing there from the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire… and that they intend to try and pin both fires on the juveniles they have already arrested.
The Great Smoky Mountains National Park Face book page reported Monday at 11/28 at 1046am that “gusting wind have caused the fire to spot across the ridges in the Chimney Tops and Bullhead ridge area”
That seems to be confirmation that the fire had crossed 441 early in the day..The fire was reported to be near the Twin Creeks Picnic at 1130am.
These three known fire locations line up pretty straight in a South to North line starting at the chimneys. .And. I just came across a new to me picture of the same intersection in Gatlinburg photographed at 1028 and 1052am Monday that shows a dramatic increase in smoke with decreased visibility.
Appears the fire was flanking Gatlinburg (to the East, near Mynatt Park and Park Vista Hotel before noon on Monday 11/28.
Question. Do arsonists typically work alone? I have seen a couple of pics that show possibly two smoke columns. Maybe these two individuals built two separate fires.?
Also. the Great Smoky Mountains National Park Facebook page reported on November 14 at 3:49pm that the FIRST Chimney Tops fire was burning near the summit of the Chimney Tops Trail and that it was being monitored. There are two pictures included.. The second picture appears to be looking down the trail. There appears to be evidence that there WAS work done there as there appears to be a burning log that has been chain sawed. Looks like the smaller end was pretty much burnt up possibly meaning the fire was in the crown of the tree? You can see many videos of this hiking trail pre burn on you tube and they do show large numbers of standing dead hemlock. Victims of the Balsam Wooly Adelgid,
More discussion concerning the infamous FIRST Chimney Top fire. I am sure
YARNELL HILL FIRE
If anyone has time could you please explain what the HAIL MARY PLAN was for this fire?
I am pretty sure I already answered that question? I am tqryinqg to learn how to use my new iPad or I would answer it again right now.
I have read about it in bits and pieces–I just want to be sure that I understand the whole plan-who was involved, what their committment was and where and when it was to take place.
None of us know if there was even a plan much less what it was. I am one who believes there was one, but…who knows…who knows?
Actually…a lot of people know, but I am not one of them.
I went back and looked and this is every thing I think about the plan. I don,t think this iPad copy,s and pastes so…it was on November 23, at 5:28 pm.
I also found a question you had about Willis and slurry after 4:30, and I just don,t know what he was doing.
Gary,
Thank you.
Just to clarify-My question about Willis was what was his involvement in retardant drops after 3:50 p.m. when AA had been directed to the Yarnell area.
Quick summary of what was posted down below about this.
There is no ‘direct’ evidence that either of the two persons who were conducting ‘burnouts’ up there in the Miner’s Camp Road area ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) or the Model Creek Road area ( SPGS2 Darrell Willis ) were the ones who were ASKING ‘Bravo 33’ to KEEP the ‘Air Support’ focused on those now-now-longer-a-priority projects AFTER 3:50 PM, when Air Attack Rory Collins had TOLD ‘Bravo 33’ to switch the ‘focus’ of Air Support to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area… and ‘Bravo 33’ Lead Plane pilot Thomas French said he would do that and was (quote) “headed that way” ( at 3:50 PM ).
And by ‘direct evidence’… I mean there are no Air-To-Ground radio captures that would establish it… and there was no ‘testimony’ from anyone that would establish it, either.
It is obvious that there WAS ‘Air-To-Ground’ communication with ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ) regarding these two ‘projects’ PRIOR to 3:50 PM. Even Darrell Willis told ADOSH he WAS ‘taking to Air Support’ right being ‘assigned’ to ‘hold a line’ in the Model Creek area ( prior to 3:50 PM )… but without a full capture of all the ‘Air-To-Ground’ communications… it can’t be fully proved whose ‘idea’ it even was to START those two ‘Air Support’ projects PRIOR to 3:50 PM.
Unless more evidence emerges… the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.
That it was ‘Bravo 33’ Lead Plane pilot Thomas French himself who was being ‘anal retentive’ AFTER 3:50 PM… and he just didn’t like the fact that there were still some small ‘gaps’ in that retardant line he had been working on PRIOR to 3:50 PM.
And when Rory Collins LEFT the fire at 3:58 PM… French felt free to ignore whatever ‘orders’ he had been given ( and had agreed to )… and then just do whatever HE ( French ) wanted to do with the on-scene SEATS and the inbound VLAT.
He used them to just ‘tidy up’ the project he had been working on before even flying down to assess what was already a dire situation on the other side of the fire.
‘Task fixation’. ( Not wanting to move on to another task until YOU think you are DONE with the one you WERE working on ).
It is also not known if John Burfiend was also ‘agreeing’ with this ‘task fixation’ on French’s part. Burfiend was sitting right next to French in the same airplane and was ( after Collins left the fire ) the one actually handling the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio traffic.
ADOSH was never allowed to ‘interview’ ANY of the THREE men who were onboard ‘Bravo 33’ that day.
Thomas French, John Burfiend, and trainee Clint Cross.
Based on my experience and training a true pyromaniac, someone who has a mental disorder and can be clinically diagnosed as such which includes sexual arousal by being a fire bug…they work alone,
Goofballs, marginal people, or even otherwise good people who get drunk, use drugs, o just go along with a buddy or a group…they work with others and they are the most common kind. I suspect these two juveniles fall into that category and I agree with WTKTT, they should be held responsible for the damage from their fire or fires that would have resulted if the correct fire suppression and evacuation procedures would have been followed.
I don,t think they should be held responsible for everyone else’s mistakes, although I don’t have very many facts or even information.
For example, I did one case where Boy Scouts that were sponsored by a church stayed up late goofing around dropping burning toilet paper into one of those very expensive decomposition outhouses to watch it fall. Of course it fell on bone dry organic matter that burned the entire building down which cost more than 100 thousand dollars which the Boy Scouts insurance company paid for. Deliberate arson…yes, bad kids…no.
So…the reasons for these fires really run the gamut, railroads, smokers, campfires, volunteer firemen, wild land firefighters, drunk cool legs kids and fire bugs.
There was a HUGE fire that burned down lots of homes and hundreds of thousands acres of bug killed timber up around Denver 15 or so years ago and that was set by a female, which is unusual and she was USFS fire patrol person or a lookout, I am a little fuzzy now, but she was definitely a fire bug.
The first fire I ever investigated was set up behind Los Alamos by Mormons on a father and son church camp out. I had to interview every man who was at the camp fire that got away which caused a very expensive fire. Those men included the owner of the private security company that guarded the Los Alamos Labs, a Lieutenent with the Los Alamos Police DePartmest, the Superintendent of the Los Alamos Public Schools who was also the Stake President which means there were a bunch of Bishops under him, and a couple of rocket scientists and nuclear physicists.
It was also well known the Regional Forester was a devout Mormon as were a lot of USFS top managers. I was…worried about my future. But after I got done and had one conversation with their Risk Management attorneys in Salt Lake City…they wrote out a check for the entire amount. I was never prouder of being a USFS employee than at that moment because I never felt any pressure nor any intimidation from anyone. Like I said…most land federal land managers do the right thing most of the time.
Still working on trying to get used to this iPad because my computer crashed…but you get the idea,,,right?
Oh…and one more thing. Based on my experience, even when most federal land managers do the wrong thing, they do it out of incompetence or because they are trying to do the right thing but they have too many competing agendas or missions, or policies.
I have NEVER known or even heard of a manager who did the wrong thing for personal gain, or corruption or with mal intent. It was obvious to me that NPS manager was trying to do the right thing.
I really don’ know what the YHF Cabal, mafia…whatever they are…are up to and that includes Dudley?
Actually…I was even a very new LEO and there were several special agents on staff at the regional office. I thought they should have done that case but I think THEY set me in case it went south.
Newbies take point. ( Vietnam, etc… )
Spacing distance…. average output of 1 Claymore mine.
Although even though there are nuances and variations of who does what and why, I do want to make one thing very clear…again.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that there has been a continuous, uninterrupted, non-stop, deliberate, calculated, systemic, institutionalized etc. so on and so forth blatant falsification of all after action fire reports in the history of official investigations of wildfires in this country satheth I, Gary L. Olson.
The only outstanding questions are…WHY?
Oh…and one more thing. I am also just as sure I know why. Like WTKTT has said, this isn’t rocket science.
And because I am like a dog who just can’t stop chewing on a bone, I want to make it clear that I think it is very likely that those people who started the fires in Tennessee are not arsonists, pyromaniacs, or fire bugs because the fire(s) were a by product of their activities…not the purpose of their activities.
Of course none of that makes a difference to the dead and those who loved them.
Gary said
I want to make it clear that I think it is very likely that those people who started the fires in Tennessee are not arsonists, pyromaniacs, or fire bugs because the fire(s) were a by product of their activities…not the purpose of their activities.
Gary. I have ben thinking about this. I am gonna assume these same individuals also hiked to the top the Chimneys and set a fire on 11/13 (Sunday), 10 days before they hikes to the Chimneys again and set more fire, or fires. I have read they lit and discarded up to 60 matches on 11/23.
It seems to me that their intentions were arson, maybe not so much hiking. I do not know many 15 or 17 year olds that take off into the wilderness without being made to.
Who knows
I haven’t been following the case except for what’s been written here and I was just taking in broad generalities. So it seems you are right and the fires were set deliberately by a couple of fire bugs.
Aim also going to have to walk back what I wrote about the corruption of government offficials. I was thinking about bribes in the sense of cash or tangible things of value and not promotions or even keeping the jobs they have.
I don’t know how to calculate that kind of corruption. People like Shawna Legarza who l think is corrupt because she sold her soul to the devil a long time ago by overseeing a Big Lie with the Battlement Creef Fire Staff Ride.
Which brings to mind Gary–If certain individuals are willing to falsify after the fire then does this not bring a suspicions upon their integrity before the fire? I would like to think that the 90% are decent folk, honest and would do the right thing. But it seems that a small group has a tight rein on the many and so we see redactions, gag orders and refusals to give FOIA information because the group that controls things has erred and is afraid their reputations will be exposed for the worse. This is a nice definition of chicanery.
But there may be more involved, especially when people have unlimited use of federal tax monies. Someone pointed out evidence of fraud on the low level of GMHS involvement–simple padding of books to gain money. Of course not much discussion went on despite pretty good evidence—hours being charged for during GMHS times off.
How much more tempting is it for people in top positions where big grafts can be made by purposely allowing fires to grow so that big business can get involved with multi million dollar retardant drops, use of machinery, and involvement of scores of fire fighter groups. Certainly it is that most are honest in their efforts, but that does not stop suspicion when so many redactions are made, good evidence and testimony is avoided and awards are being handed out in an obvious debacle.
When Joy said she had a call from a city official here telling he she was causing anxiety by her FOIA’s and questions, I told Joy to tell them why be anxious if there is nothing to be anxious about. When cronies get anxious because you want to see their actions then they already arouse suspicions that their actions might not be so honest. That principle holds on all the actions that we are denied a view of. These people are forgetting that they are trusted servants to the public and all their actions need to be under the scrutiny of their peers and foremost the public funding them.
It is people that are their peers that expose these actions more than most. Why they do not want people like yourself, Dr. Ted Putnam, RTS, Norb, Provencio, WTKTT, Woodsman, and the many other well experienced wild land fire fighters evaluating their actions. Why it is so important though that the combined efforts come out to clean up the actions of these people.
When two local fire departments refuse to give FOIA reports and that even when they know the law and how they have already gone past deadlines: then, that kind of refusal shows that those in charge are either afraid to give their FOIA’s or that they flagrantly do not give a shit about the statutes of the State of Arizona. When we have this kind of attitude from public servants then we need outside investigations from other services to the public. Perhaps they will come and rightfully so.
I do think the actions we are seeing after Yarnell, Tenderfoot, and subsequent fires requires a very thorough scrutiny from the ground floor up to the top of the chimney.
Yes you are right. See my response to Calvin. I had a momentary lapse in judgement with a brief trip to Fairy Land. This world is really fucked up. Ous species deserves to go extinct and I think we are well on our way there.
Happy 73rd Birthday Sonny—
you too Norb; belated …Dr Ted Putnam…than to Diane…
Gary…what can you share on Murphy’s fire district—when was it created and why was it created?
what can you say about John MacLean and his assessment of “hotshots” in a recent years Smokejumper convention? have you heard what he said about hotshots? do you know anyone who recorded that convention?
what is it it to be a hotshot crew tied to US Forest vs other areas- is it handled and managed different…is there any archaeologic interest or empathy when they do these wild land fire management programs? or any thought to being too near to residential/scenic/highways when they perform fires in a manner that should never get out of hand weather considered or not…
why is it in foias a man who has spent his entire career is not respected the same because his involvement on this IM blog? In my time spending and reading foias I do believe some here from the early days should get more involved in foias and see how they are written about…it matters…and where is the directions to go when I did everything proper to obtain Moki and all aerial foia data to hit NO RECORDS or NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT…how can I further get to that binder from that pilot…which matters to me…is there a special designated church in CA for the firefighting industry?
How come so many want to speak “land drying up and increased gusty winds” into the equation of fire behavior so if you know that as a factor than why not flank fires differently and design how you handle a fire much different that in case of unforeseen winds it would not cause a tragedy…there is not just ONE Interactive Weather Satellite out there in this world…there is a magnitude of areas one can go to even if current areas make their data publicly a 404 message—it is cached..it is forever in the net history plus the people who video recorded the moments—it is not gone forever like one tries to brush under rugs…there is truths that will surface…I want to eventually learn how a bed down fire became the explosion it did…I want to know who was next in line to take Willis job because after all the foias I have read I really find it slim it was Marsh…I want to know how Britt Rosso became part of the staff ride…I have so many unanswered questions…anyways…as I think it I spill it…and I know you discount some areas Gary yet I remain firm in what I saw…I also mean that weekend…that 6-30-13 and all the firefighters I met and the foias do indeed tell a truth…what are these civil defense organizations popping up throughout USA…what is their mission? so I can go on but I have to get to my storage unit to work on an appeals of a blm foia…but yes I hope you Sonny get what Gary is doing…nothing wrong with it…it is a place to write freely…but have a great bday with your family..
Willis now works for civil defense–what is that all about? Moving up in the ranks I suppose–Who is civil defense going to defend? I would think Trump and company with other so called winner groups will be priorities–maybe he can get the dubious honor.
Yes, it is a sick society according to the illustrious psychiatrist Freud–he believed that a minimum of 9 out of ten are deviant. In fact he said whole countries and societal groups suffer from mental illness. That might not be far fetched if you look at the human history.
It is a merry go round for sure — but then I am happy with having another birthday and amusing myself with it all. Many here are too, some trying to make a difference–and I am confident they will.
I keep a few guiness in the fridge and some crown royal and Jamison for the hard stuff. The dew of the gods can sooth tired nerves and even bring the hysteric to calm waters. We do know the Irish Gods came up with Guiness and Jaimeson–at least whispered into some Irish bloke’s ear on how to make them. They beat the medical world in many ways–though the side effects are much the same, sometimes less when abused.
I will likely have a guiness and a shot since a couple calls reminded me of my birthday today. The older we get, the more we want to forget these birthdays–or maybe we really do appreciate another year.
What sounds negative might be positive–depending upon where you stand. For example–pointing out the errors is a positive principle to the tax payer and future life of a wild land fire fighter–but to the fellow with the foibles or in the group of cronies, he does not want his rose tinted glasses fogged with nefarious assumptions.
Maybe I am a pessimistic optimist and think old German Freud had it figured about right–at least in his circle of friends and those he attended to.
I don’t have the patience to try and answer most of your questions on this iPad because it is a two finger typing system and I don’t know the answer to most of your questions.
But I assume you are talking about Fred, so I will answer that one although I would have thought you would know the answer to that one by now, plus you are asking the exact wrong question.
The correct question is “how did he not only survive but thrive in that world in the first place and how does he manage to keep going to fires?
The WF world is highly structured, disciplined, regimented, organized and closed. There are clearly defined lines and boxes. WF are expected to stay inside the boxes and color inside the lines.
There is usually no place for individual thinking or acting
and hotshot crews are at the apex of that world. Hotshot crews are expected to set the standard for all other crews to emulate.
I embraced that philosophy and so I thrived in that environment, don’t judge who I am now by who I used to be.
Fred on the other hand has always been a free thinker, an individual and somebody who was never afraid to question authority and set his own standards, he was and still is a non-conformist. In other words, Fred colors outside the lines.
I mean C’mon…isn’t it obvious? Fred is the only WF who has participated here under his own name essentially from the beginning. I know he used an acronym initially, but those who were on the inside knew who he was.
And he is especially the only one who has participated here of his status. A hotshot crew boss (I think) for 26.5 years? That alone is really different and he is has been still going out on the line since he retired…what, almost ten years now? That’s CRAZY! I know he doesn’t swing a tool but he is still humping it up and down the mountains and eatin’ the smoke.
OK…let me see if I can sum this up for you…Fred is DIFFERENT, and WF are afraid of and don’t like or trust someone who is different.
gary- http://boardofwisdom.com/cachetogo/images/quotes/149827.png
That’s a good one, but it does not apply to the WF world.
And of course I meant that Fred is the only active WF who has participated here under his own name.
And I don’t count because either I left that world a long time ago or it left me, not sure which, but in any case, I am an outsider now besides being off the rez.
But not back in the day, back in the day…I stayed inside the box and always colored inside the lines…after I was told to do do so. I liked it that way.
Bob Powers was/is also of an anomaly that I have never been able to figure out…he lives somewhere between Fred and I.
The kids who regularly color outside the lines?
Well, we’d rather not talk about them right Gary.
I am the kid who not only drew/colored a perfect inside the lines but I created a whole new world outside the lines as well…
Conformity is the goal governments have for their citizens, factories have for their workers, and teachers have for their students.
It gets you to follow the law, do the job, and fill in the little ovals on tests. All without asking too many questions (or ideally, none.)
Unfortunately, in our current world, governments have gotten too big for their own good, factories are closing down, and a diploma is less valuable than it’s ever been.
AND fires are being managed much like me at my size walking on a high rise tight rope—it can be done but man any errors can mean tragedy…
TIME TO CHANGE THE WAY THEY FIGHT FIRES.
Now, the ability to color inside the lines may be a good test Gary to see how well young children are developing their fine motor skills.
The problem is that the continual <b reinforcement to color inside the lines when we were kids gets stuck in our psyche. Many of us carry it with us our entire lives. True story. Except for you Bday boy Sonny…you are the exception…
It’s what makes you so hesitant to stray too far away from society’s status quo. As you obviously got by now I am not one who follows the traditional ways and I make my own path…
To question whether or not you should take that risky dream job when you already have a secure job with good benefits. I bet many of GMHS that passed or prior can relate there…even with no proper benefits for some…
To refrain from putting some action behind your most fantastic thoughts.
To say yes when everyone else is saying no (or no when everyone else is saying yes.)
I in my humble opinion feels one man was not going to be the next head honcho and he knew that and he was already thinking out his options…also anyone reading..do you comprehend this word…ridgway….
Jesus. Ghandi. Mother Teresa. Martin Luther King, Jr. Amelia Earhart. Walt Disney. Harriet Tubman. John Lennon. Joan of Arc. George Washington. The greatest, most inspiring figures in the history of mankind have one thing in common: they were non-conformists.
They colored WAY outside the lines.
WF: Don’t be afraid to color outside the lines. Be Y O U…and let’s change the way they fight these fires versus blaming other elements…especially the ones who cannot speak for themselves…or reformat your process so there is less blaming on terrain and weather that your plan flanks the fire just right that no matter if a man made or mother nature event it is unable to turn into a tragedy.
so if any person can tell me how many times Eric Marsh went to his company truck on 6-30-13 after he initially left it that morning and met up with 2 hikers—after he went up top and met mystery man and then met with his crew…how many times did he actually touch base with his own truck that day? Was it that one moment when he left it that morning…there is testimony that Eric Marsh did state he was going back the way he came in and I saw the way he came in which was not the deployment zone area…so I am curious how many times he actually scouted and ended up there at his truck…when and where was the buggies relocated 6-30-13; what time.
I would like to show you where I lost my men’s glove 6-30-13 and is there any public photo evidence of the men’s burnt glove they found to determine if it was mine or the unidentified missing glove of the unnamed GMHS crew member with reported missing glove …my confusion is the people “alive” like Frisby should be legally and morally required to determine in his testimony what Ranch he meant in his testimony especially with articles out like on Bill Gabbert’s without a direct source…..BSR or the restaurant…I did a FOIA to Frisby recently and he rerouted to Cococino area…and so how are we to place this to simply show the final hours once you get the data without it being of harm to someone currently in the industry—what would you do Gary? You have the scout–the saw crew—and brushing it out—and the rest of the crew—(side note: Mystery man with Eric Marsh and the plans for 6-30-13 I think you should one day share more-)–I have tried to obtain the maintenance records for the saws and I get back NO RECORDS FOUND—the saws were not getting through areas—that never has been talked about the delay of saws and issues on the saws—it was not just a dulling effect—it was not the scrub oak and manzanita but a certain terrain section so I would of loved to have seen the investigators talk on were all the saws at the scene and were all the saws what was left- can we know how much was left and if any of it showed or told a story in looking at the saws…and same with radios and cells…I really think they screwed that part up bunches…the investigators because it is in not in any report I read…plus did any areas of that deployment zone have watches locked on a time or cameras or video cameras or gps units. Also what was the public reason that last moment did not happen between Eric Marsh and Brian Frisby?
Brian Frisby maybe can talk about if Eric Marsh rather meet in person because of the radio concerns that day…Musser and Abel and Hall…Fernandez??? could probably shed light alot too being some of them had air flight looking down….and speaking of the air flight…I would like to see the fella who said help is on the way…I would like to show him 19 grave sites and Donut sitting at a Prescott ptsd meeting..maybe that could help you remember more and speak more…TIME and losing track of time due to in moment concerns…has to be calculated too when you want to sit in that deployment zone and reflect to that moment…do it with the people who were in that box canyon that very morning 6-30-13 that can show you how it was that day (us)—the terrain…it is a piece of cake after the fire except for Bruce Hanna from ADOSH and myself (slippery rocks) but it is even EASIER now with this apple pie trail…beautiful trail but anyone really looking for purity take the ol logger miner cowboy and his side kick…even RTS took the staff ride but never ever met us for our staff ride to match it up to theirs because reading on here is much different in person and experiencing it “live”—so for that yes Gary RTS did begin this Spring become an interest after the staff ride as I began to get incoming my foias fulfilled…yes he is one who would benefit by getting his own foias from the different 71 entities that I have…has anyone ever thought that maybe Eric Marsh was not very far from the crew when I saw him that day and so maybe he was busy problem solving a few crew’s concerns that it did take away from his duties at that moment at seeing the fire behavior at that moment and so would that be meeting the goals if he helped a crew out vs setting it up for another to help and keep an eye on that fire at all times …maybe one of the aerial guys can elaborate what they saw on clustered concerns/preoccupied with a situation within a situation…did they see the men…any of them…any helicopters help with any side problems not yet reported? I always wondered why or how Holly felt Eric was on a set of rocks like she seen…the interpretations in that article never made sense to what I eye-witnessed… and HELLO…Helms had a camera system and my perimeter cameras have time-stamps so how come they were not in the investigation reports to show time stamps of ANY ACTIVITIES including any fire industry people or equipment caught on cameras and I have never liked that all this time passed that a book was being reported to be done by DJ with John MacClean announced it at the smokejumper convention and hell the book aint a book unless it was pure and really shared it like it was as boring or exciting or harmful it could be to people currently in the system because in all honesty that camera should of been mandatory in the investigation report. 2:30pm they speak about the weather but let’s talk about the real time change; a small bit after 2pm…
WHERE WAS THE LOOKOUT IF DONUT LEFT…
there had to be people there looking out for them…I think they all felt they were coming back a different way..it was a total misunderstanding…on that point in time…but please as Diane Lomas asked…for newbies what is the Hail Mary Plan or what possible thing is it people think they were ordered down versus i just being a total frustrating day…all around and errors unfolded…I just want to know the elements to ensure higher ups can’t just lean back to learned methods versus let’s go 3 ft deep and learn the human factors of the day…I mean we lost 19 HUMAN BEINGS so why so many areas not discussed or are yet to the public surface…what would you pay attention to…to me it would be my lookout…I would want to know someone knows my location and my intentions and maybe it did happen yet they still lay quiet…”just saying”…good night…Happy Bday Tammy…
Sonny and Joy,
Great to see your recent posts.
Happy belated birthday Sonny !
Ok…just one more point that I have also made many times before on this thread…the only thing that is different this time is that JD has a blog and people like me have iPads so this is the FIRST time they are getting push back, isn’t America GREAT!
Gary said: isn’t America GREAT!
MY REPLY: you mean “again” after that …right 🙂 hee hee
“First of all, it wasn’t so great for a lot of people 50 years ago. If you were African American, if you were Latino, if you were a first-generation immigrant, if you belonged to some religions and if you were gay, forget about it.
“It just wasn’t so great for some people.”…so I never GOT that campaign slogan when Reagan had done it or Bill…so definitely not with Trump…???
make AMERICA great AGAIN by taking Smokey the Bear back to OLD SCHOOL and as well as some of our visions and idealism and moral decencies…
Not yet…our Savior Der Führer Trump “Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer” – “One People, One Empire, One Leader” hasn’t had time yet to work his miracles. Not even he can work THAT fast.
And I got a little lost and never really made my main point about Fred and the WF community. Fred has violated their mores and ethos and so they feel like they have to discredit, punish, shun and ostracize him and in that way they can keep other members of their tribe in line. Which has worked pretty darn good right? No one else wants to be a mole in the WF Wack-a-Mole game.
No one else has come to post here. That’s how groups of people have always enforced their values on each other. Hotshots are really good at doing that. I was really good at doing that. Being a hotshot defined who I was and it obviously never left me…how sad?
And for any WF who think I am out of line for criticizing Shawna Legarza…yes, I know you are there. I knew Marc Mullenix and he was one of the nicest, friendliest and most personable people I have ever met.
I also said early in this thread I really liked Shawna as well and I still do. I just don’t like the path she chose to get ahead. It’s not one I was ever willing to take. These are all separate issues.
https://www.rockies.edu/shawna_legarza.htm
Hmmmmm?
Jesus – crucified as a young man
Ghandi – assassinated after five other attempts failed
Mother Teresa – died really poor in the slums of Calcutta after devoting her life to helping people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis…it sounds very tempting but I am WAY to selfish.
Martin Luther King Jr. – assassinated as a relatively young man
Amelia Earhart. – disappeared somewhere over the Pacific ocean as a young person
Walt Disney – created an empire based on a cartoon mouse and died of lung cancer because he was a very heavy smoker
Harriet Tubman. – was born a slave so that is a high bar
John Lennon – assassinated AND he had to deal with that wacked out broad Yoko Ono
Joan of Arc.- burned at the stake for seeing visions
George Washington – OK, you got me on this one. I would really like to be like George Washington. But do you have any other examples of how coloring outside the lines really works out well for most people?
RTS –shunned and singled out because he wants people to own up to their mistakes–
Gary Olsen–not shunned–too afraid to mess with this guy–he tells it like it is and can get the goods on anyone.
No, I’m just so far removed I am irrelevant.
FYI – The title Führer is derived from a Scandinavian word meaning leader except without the political connotations. I am always interested in the fact that my heritage is originally from a northern Germanic tribe that kept migrating north.
As you can see…I am still hoping for that one way ticket to Valhalla although I am still waiting for official word on my request for a die in battle waiver.
And do you know that the Normans from France who conquered England with William the Conqueror were originally Norsemen from Scandinavian who had extorted territory from their bitches (non gender specific) the Franks? Just sayin…
Oh…and one more thing. FUCK Der Führer Trump and the horse he rode in on. The Blue Collar People of American and just now starting to figure out they were LIED to by a fraud, a phony and a con artist (Mitt Romney).
And I am really counting on my hero…Senator John McCain, his pal Lindsey Graham and Little Marco to really fuck Der Führer up on some of his more OUTRAGEOUS cabinet picks
Especially what sounds like it going to be his pick for Secretary of State…Rex Tillerson,who has NEVER worked for any company other that Exxon-Mobile.
Can you believe that one…I can’t? Rex Tillerson is that rat faced bastard Putin’s bitch (non-gender specific).
But like I said, I am not going to discuss politics anymore on this thread.
Regardless of the fact that he is totally ‘unqualified’ for the job… it is ‘inconceivable’ that Tillerson would pass Congressional muster for the job just based on the massive ‘Conflicts of Interest’.
How could HE possibly spend just one day ‘on the job’ as ‘Secretary of State’ without having ‘Conflicts of Interest’? Is he going to sell off his massive STOCK holdings in Exxon before he takes the job? Not likely.
Same goes for pretty much all the other wounded, demented and/or bat-crap crazy ‘monkeys’ that Trump has ‘chosen’ so far.
But I also discovered just a few short weeks ago that ( as they say in the ‘Princess Bride’ )… I need to re-evaluate what the word ‘inconceivable’ means.
So we shall see.
As for Trump supporters and them ‘beginning to realize what has actually happened’…. I ran into one the other day and he is absolutely convinced that Donald Trump won the popular vote.
You Just. Can’t. Fix. STUPID.
No…but we can.and might need to medicate it for the worst ones who have an incorrigible reality comprehension problem.
Speaking of conflicts of interest from day one, how about the Emoluments Clause in the U.S. Constitution?
Der Führer Trump and his bitches (non-gender specific) thought it was going to be a problem for Secretary/Senator Hillary Clinton, I am pretty sure it is going to be a BIG problem for Our Dear Leader starting on January 20, 2017.
Of course I am firmly in the camp that believes we should give Our Supreme Leader all of the rope he needs to hang himself in an impeachment hearing. And then we can worry about Our Savior-in-Chief Pence later on.
I am NOT mad at the Russian’s for putting their thumb on the scale and getting Der Führer Trump elected.
The information that they were doing just that has been out there for a long time…it’s just voters like the Woodman have brain damage or don’t keep up on current events. It has to be one or the other. There is no other explanation for how fucked up they were as supposedly patriotic and loyal Americans.
I mean C’mon. The Russian Useful Fool Trump could have had Mitt Romney for Secretary of State for God’s sake, what would have been wrong with that pick?
Oh…that’s right. America’s Ghoul said Mitt went too far in his criticism of PEOTUS Trump, family values three time married fornicating serial cheating Giuliani said Mitt “crossed the line.”
What? Our Fornitcator-in-Chief Elect Trump never crossed the line in criticizing Romney?
Asshole Elect Trump said that if he told Mitt to drop to his knees and give him a blowjob when he was running for President Mitt would have done so. Like THAT is not crossing a fuckin’ line?
I will tell you one more little secret. I would really like to meet those asshole FBI agents out of the New York office who put their fist on the scale with the Fuckin’ Russians in the back country. I would show them Arizona Road Lizard Crazy and some things I learned over the years.
But I am not going to write about politics anymore on this thread but somebody oughta… But I won’t, I won’t. The *hell* I won’t! (John Wayne in McClintock, 1963),
Editors note,
All of the idiot FBI agents I worked with over the years always showed up to go into the back country wearing casual shoes, golf shirts and Dockers, so….
OK…just ONE more tonight. Trump thinks the “election was a long time ago” and it is time for us to UNITE as a country behind HIM? Not fuckin’ likely.
I mean…I didn’t like Dubya’s war of choice in Mesopotamia, but I have NEVER been political like this. I mean who would be arrogant enough to think they could go into that part of the world to think they could democratize it?
But Trump went way over a whole bunch of lines and all in not forgotten or forgiven.
OK…just one more. Our nation’s success is NOT tied to the Russian Useful Fool’s success. You could elect a potted plant as President and this country would just keep humming along for an indefinite period of time just fine.
This country is NOT run by a President, the military is run by the generals, the government is run by career civil servants and congress is run by a bunch of do nothing’s anyway…so we would be better off with a potted plant instead of our Fornicator-in-Chief Trump.
And his Slovakian whore (or is she Slovenia?) isn’t moving to This Olde House anyway…it’s not good enough for HER. And it is going to cost us 1 million dollars a day to guard Trump Tower like it’s a White House.
Just wait until a truck bomb takes out the whole block on 5th Avenue and half that glass building…we will all be cryin’ then. Mrs. Trump has made a significant part of New York and the people who both live and work in Trump Tower into major terrorist targets…selfishly.
Mark it down…you read it hear first.
I did see on the news tonight where Mrs. Trump is suing some people for talking smack about her. I wish she would sue me, but then again…I wish I owned something she could take from me. but I don’t so….
Reply to Gary Olson post
on December 11, 2016 at 7:06 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> OK…just ONE more tonight. Trump
>> thinks the “election was a long
>> time ago” and it is time for us to
>> UNITE as a country behind
>> HIM? Not fuckin’ likely.
Especially not when his unprecedented ( and bizarre ) pre-inaguration continuation of ‘campaign rallies’ is ONLY taking place in States that he WON.
He ( or Bannon or Conway or whoever is actually pulling his strings now ) is asking everyone to ‘unite’… and he doesn’t have one single pre-inaguration ‘rally’ scheduled in one single state that didn’t vote for him in the general election.
“Do what I SAY… not what I DO.”
The ‘elephant in the room’ is still the fact that the last known ‘protester’ at one of his final pre-election rallies ( who was ‘wisked away’ when someone shouted “GUN!”… even though there was NEVER any GUN at all ) was ‘attacked’ by the other rally members in the front rows because he was holding a sign that simply said…
“Republicans AGAINST Trump”.
There really ARE a lot of ‘Republicans’ who are ( and always have been ) AGAINST this 71 year old narcissistic pathological liar… and a lot of them are sitting right there in the U.S. Congress and Senate.
And he’s going to have to come out of his ‘controlled attendance rally safezone’ very soon and deal with that.
He is NOT going to have any kind of ‘rubber stamp’ Congress ‘on his side’… for the confirmation hearings ( or anything else he tries to do ).
Wait until he isn’t “getting his way”.
He might just ( finally ) ‘lose it’ and start appearing at his ‘rallies’ drooling in a pink tutu, and then we can all just sit back and watch regular old ‘competency hearings’.
As for Pence… I’ve been watching him try and do ‘damage control’ for this moron he agreed to be on a ticket with… and I think it’s all starting to ‘get’ to Pence, too.
He ( Pence ) knew he was teaming up with a con-man… but I think he ( himself ) is only now coming to realize he’s ‘over his head’ and has actually gotten into bed with an actual ‘pathological liar’.
On the talk show circuit… Pence has that same look on his face ( as he tries to give coherent answers to questions about Trump ) that Anakin Skywalker did in “The Revenge of the Sith”, when he was alone with Chancellor Palpatine and finally finds out that Palpatine is actually a ‘Sith Lord’.
Whoops.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> But Trump went way over a whole
>> bunch of lines and all is not forgotten
>> or forgiven.
———————————————–
Well, I was there and I saw what you did
I saw it with my own two eyes
So you can wipe off that grin,
I know where you’ve been
It’s all been a pack of lies.
Phil Collins – “In the Air Tonight”
———————————————–
Fuckin’ A!
It is all “Bread and Circuses” for some really IQ challenged people. How long can he keep reliving his campaign and does he plan on ever to start governing or even trying to bring the country together (Rhetorical Question).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
Oh..and yes, literally hundreds of them have signed letters saying so, men and women who I the greatest respect for…men like General Colin Powell who served in a combat role in Vietnam…TWICE while Donald Trump got seven deferments, a couple of them were for bone spurs in his feet. Gee. I think with his father’s money, he could have paid a doctor to say anything like the quack who gave him is physical for the campaign.
“Captain Powell served a tour in Vietnam as a South Vietnamese Army (ARVN) advisor from 1962 to 1963. While on patrol in a Viet Cong-held area, he was wounded by stepping on a punji stake The large infection made it difficult for him to walk, and caused his foot to swell for a short time, shortening his first tour.
He returned to Vietnam as a major in 1968, serving in the 23rd Infantry Division, then as assistant chief of staff of operations for the Americal Division. During the second tour in Vietnam he was decorated for bravery after he survived a helicopter crash, single-handedly rescuing three others, including division commander Major General Charles Martin Gettys, from the burning wreckage.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell#Vietnam_War
I mean shit fire…Al Gore VOLUNTEERED to serve in the COMBAT INFANTRY in the Vietnam War and his father and grandfather were U.S. Senators and filthy rich..
And even though I am NOT a follower…or a joiner, or even a very civilized person, I do find it comforting that there are MORE people in this great country of ours who agree with me about Our Dear Leader Elect than who DISAGREE with me. In spite of the flawed belief system of whoever WTKTT was talking to recently and the number is going to get bigger and bigger every day until impeachment time.
Can I get a HALLELUJAH? Can I get an AMEN?
And that number just grew by two (2) more recently…our Nations Ghoul and the governor with the LOWEST approval ratings in the country, Chris “Bridgegate – Who Me?” Christy. Trump…”he TOTALLY knew about it”, with friends like that…..
Boy howdy did our Supreme Leader Elect FUCK them both in the ass dry…like men. Hahahahahahahaha.
They were the ONLY ones who stood by him when no one else would. Look at how he paid them back. What do you think he will do for You People? Hahahahahahahaha.
I think the Woodsman might be right…maybe I am foaming at the mouth. I better go check. Hasta la vista…baby! (Terminator 2: Judgment Day)
And just in case ANYBODY thinks I am blowing smoke about working with so many idiot FBI agents over the years?
Just check out my “I Love ME” video. There are photos of me in there with the DIRECTOR of the FBI, Judge William Sessions, who was the fourth director of the FBI and Secretary of the Interior Manual Lujan who were having a press conference at FBI headquarters to BRAG about one of MY cases. OK…it was my biggest case.
There are also photos of me in the FBI laboratory standing next to the evidence from the Unabomber case while I supervised the analysis of the evidence from my case.
As RTS said, I do like to brag. But…I can back those brags up, and if it is the truth, am I bragging or just stating facts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lPaaWsib8
How many other federal agents, including FBI agents, do you think there have been who the DIRECTOR of the FBI, not a SAC or ASAC, have held national press conferences at FBI headquarters in Washington D.C. to brag about one of their cases, especially with a Cabinet Secretary there as well? ZERO…that’s how many. I guarantee you…I am a LEGEND in my own mind.
Your vote counts–except in this election.
I do wonder why Trump was allowed to be President and Hillary dismissed. I think because Trump fits the mold better for protecting the corporate giants. The Father will better bring enslavement principles to bear.
I think Hillary was getting too soft toward the subjects of the worker bee status and mentality. This is not well for profits — and the rhetoric we hear from Trump is mostly tripe. I am certain time will bear this out–
I agree about John McCain–good man but he is going to have to deal with a real force when it comes to Trump and Company.
Oh…and one more thing for those who haven’t been following all of my ethnic pride posts for the last three years…Russia is derived from the word “Rus” which means “those who row.”
So my people conquered and then settled large portions of modern day Russia as well, so I am NOT prejudiced against the Russian people because I am related to a lot of them. I just don’t like that rat faced KGB FSB bastard Putin and his kind. But I think he is mostly Slavic. Whoops…my racism is showing.
Gary has me laughing so much –probably why I am still alive. Good humor is good for the heart–even serious good humor.
I can’t be racist, being half Black. My mother’s maiden name was Black. If your mother’s maiden name was Brown then you are half Brown. But on a check, there is no African in my Irish DNA profile. But then my kids are half Brown since their mother was Mexican–not Mexican American. Her maiden name was Johnson–her Dad being half French. Johnson does not sound French but then we never got a DNA sample there so he sounded a bit Norweigen and Mexican. That is confusing–anyhow he was smart enough to be the Jefe de Migracion for 20 years if that means anything.
No Black Irish hidin’ in the woodpile anywhere?
Reply to Woodsman post on December 5, 2016 at 6:15 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> WTKTT said:
>> “It really does look like they were just ‘letting it burn’ from Wednesday through
>> Saturday. ( FOUR full days with no significant efforts made to ‘put it out’ ) and
>> only got concerned come Sunday when the winds picked up.”
>>
>> T.O.L.D. Y.A.
Yep.
There’s also still no evidence there were ANY ‘backburns’ attempted, as I was thinking at first.
They ( NPS ) really weren’t doing JACK SHIT ( for FOUR DAYS ).
Unless some new evidence comes to light… this really does look like they were just letting it burn and just had all their fingers and toes crossed that nothing bad would happen.
Whoops.
And then innocent people ( including 2 little girls ) DIED ( horribly ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> It’s the National Park Service, afterall. They do this crap all the time.
>> They let them burn & ‘monitor’ them while looking for ways to meet
>> objectives that may include perceived benefits to wildlife, habitat, fuel
>> reduction, returning the land to a state where ‘man has not tarnished it’
>> etc. This time it completely bit them in the ass!
Yep.
There is also ( still ) no ‘evidence’ they had any of these other ‘plans’ and/or ‘objectives’, either.
It really does appear as if ‘management’ ( specifically, GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash ) was just reluctant to ‘spend any money’ and was hoping it would just ‘go out’ on its own.
Horrible ‘miscalculation’… and total ‘incompetence’ and ‘negligence’.
This is why I believe there will NOT be any actual ‘murder’ or ‘manslaughter’ charges brought against the 2 juveniles that have supposedly now been ‘arrested’ for being ‘involved’ ( whatever that means ) in the start of the original small fire.
The PUBLIC might be screaming for them to be tried as ‘adults’ and for them to even ‘swing from a rope’… but the Tennessee State/County prosecutors know better.
If it becomes about WHO is ‘fully’ responsible for the deaths of 14 innocent people that night in Gatlinburg… there is actually a LOT of blame to go around.
1. FOUR DAYS of no real attempt to extinguish the fire.
2. ONE full day of total incompetence as the fire spread rapidly.
3. Totally botched ‘evacuation planning’ and ‘notifications’.
These are all definitely ‘contributing factors’ to the deaths themselves… and from a certain ‘legal perspective’ ( of which the prosecutors are fully aware ) they could all be construed as direct ‘causal’ factors in the deaths of those 14 innocent people.
If the lawyers have any brain cells… they are not going to risk ‘going there’ in a TRIAL.
They’ll get the ‘juveniles’ to ‘plead to lesser charges’ and just ‘make it all go away’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Would you provide a link to the video where the mayor shoved the park
>> superintendent away from the microphone? I’d like to read the body
>> language/facial expressions on that one. Thank you.
Here you go.
If you want to see some funky ‘body language’… just watch Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters facial contortions as he is standing behind GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash. Waters was ‘pissed off’ the moment the reporters even STARTED asking ‘questions’ of ANY kind.
He appears to be one of these politicians that comes from the Donald Trump “I talk… you just listen and report it… but no questions” school of ‘First Amendment and Freedom of the Press’ rights.
Also watch Cassius Cash’s ‘body language’ after Larry Waters pushes him away from the podium in order to abruptly END the press conference. Cassius has his own WTF moment back at Waters… and then just shrugs his shoulders and walks away.
CHANNEL 6 – ABC – GATLINBURG – WATE NEWS
Article Title: ‘No Monday morning quarterbacking,’ Sevier County mayor defends accusations someone dropped the ball
Publshed: December 2, 2016, 4:39 pm
http://wate.com/2016/12/02/no-monday-morning-quarterbacking-sevier-county-mayor-defends-accusations-city-dropped-ball/
From the article…
——————————————————————————————————-
GATLINBURG (WATE) – Things got a little heated during the end of a Friday morning news conference on the fires in Sevier County.
Governor Bill Haslam, along with Senator’s Lamar Alexander and Bob Corker attended the news conference.
The briefing ended abruptly after officials were peppered, specifically by one North Carolina reporter who accused someone of “dropping the ball” when it came to fire and evacuation preparedness.
—————————————————————————————————-
** VIDEO OF THE LAST PART OF THE NEWS CONFERENCE
NOTE: As the video embedded in this article starts… National Park Service ( NPS ) and Great Smoky Mountains National Park ( GMNSP ) Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ is stepping up to the podium. Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters is the older man in the black/grey jacket standing directly BEHIND ‘Cassius Cash’ as he is speaking to the media…
———————————————————————————————–
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: So… uh… goin’ back to the origination of the fire… the ‘Chimney Tops’… I’m not sure if you’re familiar with… uhm… how that place looks. It’s a very… uh… ROCKY place… right?… and so… uh… with a load of vegetation around it. So… when we discovered the fire ( Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at about 5:20 PM ), we put resources up on it the very NEXT day ( Thursday, November 24, 2016 ). Uh… we always fight fire aggressively… but safely. So when you look at the location of where the Chimneys were… it was a slow, creeping fire… right?… and so, we were able to put the amount of resources that were commensurate to what we could do… again… fightin’ it aggressively… and safely. Ah… so… it didn’t… it wasn’t a “droppin’ the ball”. We… uh… the day BEFORE the wind advisories came in… we actually had FOUR helicopters doin’… ah… buck… bucket drops on the fire.
Reporter 1: But why not bring in MORE resources? Why not… on the content… who was the forecaster and who was it… was it… right now it’s a Type 1 response team that I know is the… is the largest team. WHO was working that fire? WHO was forecasting that weekend?
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: We had resources… as I said… we had FOUR helicopters workin’ the fire on that Sunday. Uh… we had resources on the ground as the fire was smoldering… again… Wednesday through Sunday. Uh… you can’t put a crew… uh… up on the top of the Chimneys and build a fire line around it… so… again… we had the appropriate amount of resources that allowed us to fight that fire in an aggressive… but still ‘safe’ manner.
( NOTE: Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters is already ‘unhappy’ with even the FIRST question asked of Cassius Cash… and when Cash finishes his ‘answer’ Waters is already raising his right hand and ready to touch Cash arm on his right arm to ‘signal’ to him to get away from the podium, and actually does ‘tap’ on the arm signalling him to ‘move away’ from the podium… but another reporter jumps in quickly and Cash does NOT ‘step aside’. Larry Waters now ‘lowers’ his right hand and lets Cash continue at the podium, but now Larry Waters proceeds to start using his left hand to ‘rub’ his face and his ‘forehead’ in a visible show of ‘anger’ and/or ‘frustration’ over the line of questioning coming from the reporters. )
Reporter 2: But I think the QUESTION… but the… but the QUESTION is about the FORECAST, I think… am I right?… that the question is… WHO was the person saying ‘be careful… be on ALERT… the WINDS may CHANGE and this could send this into a tinder-box’?
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: So there WAS a HIGH WIND ADVISORY… uh… that came in… uh… and we were VERY much AWARE of that… which is why we pulled in those FOUR SHIPS ( Helicopters ) to try to knock it down as much as possible, if not put it out. So we… we weren’t ‘blind’… uh… to knowin’ there was a HIGH WIND ADVISORY. I will share with you that that HIGH WIND ADVISORY… the actual wind came in a LOT earlier than it was forecasted. That fire was… the wind… where it… uhm… was predicted to come in about 1 PM… that Monday… the wind started that night… and did not let up.
Reporter 1: Wny not… why not then EVACUATE?… and I don’t know if that would be your call. Why not EVACUATE?… like… in North Carolina… I can tell you I covered the fire… uhm… ‘Party Rock’ fire. They evacuated VERY aggressively… and no one DIED, thankfully, in that… those fires.
( NOTE: Larry Waters again raises his right had and tries to touch Cassius Cash on the arm and get him to ‘step aside’… but Cash again stays right where he is… ready to answer this ‘next question’. Waters just looks ‘pissed off’ now… and remains that way until he jumps in shortly and will abruptly END the press conference ).
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Well… first… I don’t have…
Reporter 1: Similar to High Tops…
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Right…
Reporter 1: …the fire’s up HIGH.
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Right. So I… first… I don’t have the jurisdiction… uh… to… to evacuate a town… uh… we worked collectively ( he gestures to the people around him up at the podium )… and that’s exactly what we did on Monday… uh… with the City Manager, myself and the Fire Chief sayin’… okay… this is a… within a certain proximity… it is prudent for us now to start thinkin’ about… uh… movin’ people.
Reporter 1: But Monday was TOO LATE. We’ve had people DIE. Can ANYBODY answer WHY you didn’t evacuate EARLIER?
( NOTE: Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters has had enough… especially after Cash tells the reporters that HE, alone, did NOT have the authority to actually ‘start’ the evacuation of Gatlinburg… and Waters now uses his right hand to physically ‘push’ on Cassius Cash’s right arm and get him to move AWAY from the podium. Cash moves to his left, away from the podium, looking surprised and confused at Waters’ action(s), and Cash then just ‘shrugs his shoulders’ as Waters now begins to speak on top of the reporter… )
Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters: I… I… I don’t think. Uh… ya know… they… what… what we’re getting in… into is folks that don’t know this area and got “Monday Mornin’ Quarterbacking”… and… and we’re not gonna get inta that right now because… uh… we did the best…
Reporter 1: People HAVE DIED…
Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters: They HAVE… and we’re sorry for that… but we’re not gonna get inta “Monday Mornin’ Quarterbacking” right now.
( Larry Waters then accidentally knocks one of the microphones off the podium and onto the floor ).
That’ll be sumthin’, when we have the evaluation, we’ll… we’ll certainly take a look at and ask these questions. Uh… we’re gonna have another press conference at 4 o’clock and we’d be very happy for you all to attend that and we think we’ll have some more information for ya… thank you.
( Larry Waters abruptly leaves the podium even as reporters continue to shout questions ).
——————————————————————————————
Followup…
Notice in the actual article itself the description ( by the reporter writing the article ) that other reporters were ‘peppering officials with questions’…
—————————————————————————-
The briefing ended abruptly after officials were peppered, specifically by one North Carolina reporter who accused someone of “dropping the ball” when it came to fire and evacuation preparedness.
—————————————————————————-
Just TWO reporters were asking just TWO pertinent questions…
1. WHO was running/managing the fire PRIOR to the blowup?
2. WHY weren’t evacuations ordered earlier?
I wouldn’t call that ‘peppering’ anyone with ‘questions’.
But if you believe reporters should never be allowed to ask any ‘hard’ questions at all… not EVER… then I guess you would consider that ‘peppering officials with questions’.
Just for the record…
WATE in Gatlinburg is OWNED by ‘Young Broadcasting’ of Knoxville.
‘Young Broadcasting’ merged with the ‘Media General’ company on November 12, 2013, not long after the Yarnell tragedy.
‘Media General’ is now run by the principal staff of LIN Media, including CEO Vincent L. Sadusky.
OH YEAH…this one is REALLY bad. I want more than anything right now to grab that fuckin’ hillbilly cracker mayor by his neck and choke the life out of him. I should NOT have watched that press conference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Is just me…or did that Parkie look like the hero in that gaggle of villians?
He looked like the guy who saw himself outside the wagon circle that was forming behind him. Cassius Cash was on the CBS Sunday Morning show recently showing off the park. He seemed easy going and intelligent, as expected for the guy running the second most visited park in the system. He didn’t get there by letting others control the narrative.
Reply to Muzzy post on December 9, 2016 at 2:59 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> He didn’t get there by letting others control the narrative.
He ( Cassius Cash ) also didn’t ‘get there’ by not knowing how to ‘cover his own ass’, either.
When he did just that at the press conference… by telling the reporter (quote) “I don’t have the jurisdiction to evacuate a town”… you could almost literally SEE the top of Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters’ head beginning to ‘come off’ right there behind Cash.
Seconds later… Waters ENDED the ‘press conference’.
‘Easy going’ and/or ‘Intelligent’ or not… I still think Cassius Cash has a lot to answer for.
14 people died horribly… in part because of decisions HE ( Cash ) was ( or was NOT ) making between 5:30 PM on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 and 6:30 PM on the following Monday ( FIVE DAYS later ), November 28, 2016.
Yep, nobody ever likes “Monday Mornin’ Quarterbacking” after they have FUCKED UP! They only like to “Monday Mornin’ Quarterback” when it’s time to engrave the plaques they will give to each other for doing such doing GREAT work.
The only problem is, when you get to take credit for when things go right, you also have to take responsibility for when things go wrong. That’s the part nobody likes.
At least those reporters seem to be a little more on the job than the stupid fucks in Arizona who have all drank the Cool-Aid…except for JD.
WTKTT’s response to Woodsman about the way bosses ride herd on their underlings is reminiscent of the Willis talk right after the demise of the 19 GMHS where you see one of the Honchos making trips up to Willis with a serious look and whispering in his ear as Willis is talking to the media. A man can not even freely talk his thoughts without interruption. I would have like to have seen that ass whispering take the stand and have his say or rebuttal of Willis talk rather than whiper in the ear. It is suspect when we live in a free society.
Here is the thing in answer to Gary Olson. When a person is in his heart a good person he has too many expectations that the world is also good. And generally in America that is true and it is well known that around 20% of the Prison population definitely belong there–but then recidivism for certain types such as burglars and child molesters is way up somewhere around the 89% range.
But we are talking now about first responders. government servants of the people, police, firemen–the people we expect to be models of society. The heroes we put our trust into.
Can there be conspiracies among them whereby many collude to misuse tax payer funds or conspire to cover up misdeeds among themselves? I am one to say generally it would not be true. Yet whole police forces have been cleaned out. We can not forget people like Serpico and his exposing so many of the NY police.
This kind of corruption is found in any type organization that uses public funds. I can remember working for a public funded counseling organization where I was managing a half way house for recovering alcoholics, drug addicts, and street people. The idea was to help these people recover and acclimate themselves to getting back to a normal life. This in my opinion is a better method than incarcerating these types like a bunch of animals. It is also cost effective compared to the high cost of jailing people. Yet even in an organization of good works there were people above me telling me to use up all the tax funding possible because they were worried that their next year government funding would be lessened because they used less money up. This in itself is a theft of tax money but under a guise of good deeds. Needless to say I continued to do as I needed, not as ordered, but that then takes you out of the love list of cronies.
Now looking to the Yarnell incident and the whole of the FS and its methods and possibilities of letting wild land fires continue because there is a wealth of unlimited government funds available to fight wild land fires. I personally can see the possibility of collusion to use federal funding to the hilt. While I see people, for example Gary Olsen and many on this site as people who would never do such thing, I can see they are much like those who can not imagine first responder hero types doing such things. Dr. Ted Putnam told me that would be something he knows could happen but in his opinion rare–yet he will tell you there is much being hidden in these investigations. Hiding stuff is dishonesty in my way of thinking very akin to conspiracy among individuals to get away with chicanery.
I then am a conspiracy theorist,
Now about the retardant. Yesterday I did spend the day with Joy going through all the tests and Doctor and test waits. Good Lord of the Irish, thanks to my Goddess I am a veteran and can use the VA hospital. Twice as good as waiting for these civilian doctors despite the bullshit about how bad the VA in Phoenix is. If they are bad then go to a civilian practice. I give them an A compared to a C for civilian service.
But this is about the retardant and Joy says my cardiologist, same as she saw yesterday is considered among the best in his profession–A+ rating. So I asked him about the retardant–its effects on lungs. He does agree that ammonia does have disastrous effects on the lungs but had not known the concentration the retardant carried. He could not comment on unknown chemicals in the retardant.
Here is what I know. Some people–Gary Olson and Sonny Gilligan types can smoke cigarettes, drink gallons and still smile at the world. Then there are some that smoke and drink and are dead early on in their thirties–forties. That does not make the effects of smoking or excess drinking good–Gary and I would likely live to 120 where we are now lucky if we hit 90. Most all the uranium miners are dead by now–one cancer or another–generally lung cancer since the carbon adheres the uranium atom to the lung tissue while the non smoker cilia will generally clean the atom out–at least a bit better. Uranium is a very heavy substance, heavier than lead and even much more deadly. The point is I do not have lung cancer even though I have had half my nose removed, had over twenty cancers including melanoma and yet the invisible killer Uranium is also a silent thing and even worse it is patient. And you know I am certain there are a few people that it has not had much effect on–like the retardant–some are affected greatly while some seem to truck on with no complaints. Don’t tell fish that though–those that got a dose are all dead.
Joy did talk to two chemical engineers, (the nephew and his wife, both chemical engineers) of the lady next to me (now deceased after the fire). Joy was at her funeral at the time–they had known of the possibility and indeed are now after the conversation looking into it. See they could not dismiss the subject since they do know the chemical composition of nitrates and sulphates of ammonia–but they did not have knowledge of the trade secret chemicals added to the cauldron.
Right adjoining my property was a white house where the lady., Marilyn Berry, had lived, I see had a home valued at 165,000 is now a vacant lot both of her and her home due to the Yarnell Fire. Of couse you can say the stress killed her, but here right now is Joy. Joy is in her mid 40’s and I would say looks to be in her 30’s. Yet with all her care for the way she cares for her health–uses health foods, non smoker, non drinker, hiker–Joy is angry. She is now seeing a doctor for heart problems–she knows things are not right since the retardant dumps–she and I hiked through that shit enough–and we happen to be among those that were affected. And in my mind all are affected by the retardant dumps–some like the uranium atom carriers just do not know it yet or perhaps they are among the few that can live well among the poisons with minimal effects. Remember, Rasputin was poisoned profusely but continued to be Rasputin.
Joy this morning told me she may have to go to emergency–so I am close by. I can beat the copter by plenty and when it comes to heart–my last one according to the Doctor gave me a margin of 30 minutes until departure. These heart situations get you close so you want a fast first responder if you intend to hang around–not one more concerned writing his reports up than getting you into the intensive care people.
Do I think the Yarnell fire fighting effort deserved a thumbs up–no. Do I know by fact I saw the video that there were drip torches burning bushes along the Shrine Road on June 30, 2013. Do I know the Peeples Valley Fire Department refuses FOIA records and denys they have any yet their truck was videoed coming out of the Shrine Road on June 30, 2013 and their man Brandon, also unknown by that Fire Chief according to his testimony–I was there for that recorded testimony also– and I know Yarnell Fire Department also is dragging their feet, calling the Sheriff on Joy, missing appointments, talking to the lawyer to avoid FOIA, and I ask–Is this not a conspiracy to hide truth here in two local fire departments? Does this make me a conspiracy nut?
No…it just makes you wrong I think, but who knows…who knows?
OK…this does it for me. I don’t have to say anything more about PEOTUS Trump, he has said all that needs to be said now..
The president of the United Steelworkers 1999, Chuck Jones, corrected Mr. Trump today on the true numbers of jobs that were being kept in the country as a result of the recent deal with Carrier.
As a result of that correction, Mr. Trump, who is in fact a chaos monkey pretending to be our new president, you know…the President of the United States of America, TWEETED the following to Chuck Jones.
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Chuck Jones, who is President of United Steelworkers 1999, has done a terrible job representing workers. No wonder companies flee country!
4:41 PM – 7 Dec 2016
and
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
If United Steelworkers 1999 was any good, they would have kept those jobs in Indiana. Spend more time working-less time talking. Reduce dues
5:56 PM – 7 Dec 2016
No…Woodsman, NOW is NOT the time to tune out.
Chaos Monkey Trump has declared war on the American working class.
Actually…he declared war a long time ago as a robber baron (that’s funny, he named his 5th child with his third wife..Barron) on unions and the working class. The problem is that people are just now beginning to find that out.
And one more thing. Chaos Monkey Trump’s supporters are now threatening Chuck Jones and his children. What a great bunch of American Patriots! They should be very PROUD of themselves.
Oh…and one more thing. You public servants out there who are WF…your WAGES, BENEFITS (retirement, health plans, sick leave, annual leave etc.). SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE…will be the NEXT target of opportunity for the Chaos Monkey and his supporters. You are going to get FUCKED in the ass…DRY!
As a retiree who is already collecting Social Security and will soon be on Medicare…none of my benefits will be touched. Everybody say’s those who are currently are 55 years old will not be affected by the new laws they are going to propose. Whew! That was close. Dodged another bullet! It IS better to be lucky…than good!
Woodsman…you sound like a younger man who might be right in the sweet spot for the Chaos Monkey to fuck over. Bend over and grab your ankle man….and I don’t want to hear any squealing like a pig out of you!
Whoops. Forgot to credit my source with the proper citation for, “squeal like a pig”, which is a famous quote from the male rape scene in the 1972 American drama thriller…”Deliverance.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliverance
I think I have said this before, but just as a reminder…I observed incompetence that was only matched by their arrogance on a grand scale with the National Park Service as far as their managers go, especially those managers who worked in FIRE and all of their other managers as well.
I mentioned the Yellowstone Fires of 1988 the other day when “let burns” at the wrong time in the wrong place and in the wrong way destroyed a good portion of the park.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_fires_of_1988
And this latest debacle reminds in a big way of the Cerro Grande Fire of 2000 that burned 400 family homes in Los Alamos in additoin to portions of the Los Alamos National Laboratories that released very bad things into the air (which should be interest Sonny) and cost an estimated I billion in damages.
I am very familiar with that particular fire since I worked as Secretary Bruce Babbitt’s primary body guard when he went to Santa Fe to explain why it happened. Of course I was backed up by Santa Fe PD SWAT, but I was the one standing next to Secretary Babbitt during a very uncomfortable town hall meeting with hundreds of press asking adversarial questions.
The Cerro Grande Fire was an escaped PRESCRIBED FIRE from the Bandolier National Monument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Grande_Fire
Did they screw up even worse in the Great Smokey Mountains. I hope the MSM finds out.
WTKTT – I have been thinking about your question why was ATF involved in the Smokey Mountains National Park fire investigation…and that is actually a good question.
1. I just saw on the news tonight that ATF has the lead in investigating the Oakland Ghost Ship fire so it is like I said, pay attention the next time a high profile arson case is on TV and ATF will be there. They do have the best experts and the forensics lab BUT…
2. They are not the recognized experts in wildfire investigations. People like I was…are the experts and many of them are not even special agents.
3. It is very common to find incendiary devices on arson fires that can be as simple as a burning cigarette that has one end placed into a book of matches to give the arsonist a few minutes to put distance between him and the fire start…so that in itself would not be a reason for ATF to be there.
4. There is the “buddy” factor…the NPS special agent is buddy’s with the local ATF specail agent(s) and so they said, “Hey…why don’t you come with me?” Or maybe they were both part of a joint task force which is also common. I spent most of my special agent career in joint task forces.
5. Because it is such a high profile case, it looks from the link you posted the fire burned right out of the park and then proceeded to burn right through the entire town. So…there might be some CYA going on there to make it look like they are really on the job by bringing in ATF to dress up the investigation.
6. I investigated several high profile and very expensive arson case in New Mexico, Arizona, and Oklahoma and I never thought to ask the ATF to help me, nor did anyone ever suggest I contact the ATF for help, nor did the ATF offer their help…so I am a little confused myself as to why they were there. I mean I know WHY they were there, but I don’t know WHY they were there…if that makes any sense.
7. So…why do I think they might have been there? Well…if you dismiss all of the other reasons listed above, the only good reason I can think of why they would be there is there was either evidence or at least the strong suspicion of EXPLOSIVE” devices used to start one or more of those fires because expertise with explosive devices is NOT in anyone wheel house except for the BATF&Explosives. It was just the BATF for most of my career and then at some point they added the E.
8. Maybe some hillbilly cracker(s) who are PEOTUS Trump were up there testing out some pipe bombs. FYI…fireworks…even big fireworks are in the average wildland arson investigators wheel house, so it would have to be more than M-80’s.
None of that is really important…I’m just kind of curious exactly why ATF was.there myself.
WHOOPS…it should read.
8. Maybe some hillbilly cracker(s) who are PEOTUS Trump SUPPORTERS were up there testing out some pipe bombs. FYI…fireworks…even big fireworks are in the average wildland arson investigators wheel house, so it would have to be more than M-80’s.
Oh…and one more thing. I just watched the movie “Nightcrawler” with Jake Gyllenhaal the other night…and it is a GREAT movie if YOU PEOPLE haven’t seen it yet.
And in the opening scene, it show’s Gyllenhaal’s character “Louis” cutting and stealing chain link fence from an industrial yard. In the next scene, it has him selling the stolen chain link fence (and he also talks about selling man hole covers and copper wire) to a “scrapper” by the pound.
So…that goes back to my advice to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Park Board and to Arizona State Senator Karen “Quid Pro Quo” Fann that if defines logic that there are people out there who will go to that much trouble and do that much damage (sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage when stealing copper wire or can you imagine hitting a man hole with your car or bicycle that has had the man hole cover stolen from it?”) to make just pennies on the dollar for scrap metal, but those scumbags are out there.
Anyway…I am very happy and PROUD that the board has taken all of my pro bono advice and cut back on their unrealistic and grandiose plans (the lack of funds may also be responsible, but I am going to take all of the credit anyway) and they HARDENED the targets they did keep.
GREAT JOB! I really like the way they installed the plagues into the granite boulders. Those can still be defaced, but there is nothing there that is worth anything to steal for scrap, and even stealing them would be very difficult and require special tools.
So…I am officially going to announce that I have now given “something back” to YOU PEOPLE for the millions of dollars (counting salary) you spent getting me up to speed as an investigator and teaching me the thousands of now random and nearly useless things floating around inside my head. Thank you.
I do agree with Gary–oddly though since I was a “scrapper” for some time in Seattle I know a bit about it. Of course there were scrappers that were thieves. We have all heard of those that cut wires off poles, some even get electricuted–a fairly good fate for those doing that sort of work. Man hole covers? That would be a misogynist for sure–someone deserving the dungeon for a long time indeed.
But what is not understandable is that it was easy enough to create a route with my two ton truck—mechanic shops, gas stations, etc up there were glad to have their scrap hauled off since if it went into the dumpster it was much extra cost to them. My loads would bring over a hundred every day, sometimes up to 500. Not for the light hearted or someone afraid to get dirty — but a decent living if you are up to it. Sometimes
Then it is all in the movies and we can bet that the theft of tax payer money would be in the range of millions while the scrapper who plys his trade by thieving–unless he is endangering someone by stealing man hole covers (good god if a cast iron man hole cover is worth in scrap that would be premium) then his theft compared to the tax dollar theft we saw at Yarnell is miniscule. Well there is a more political correct term for this type theft–mismanagement of tax payer funds. Mismanagement might not even be illegal.
Needless to say, if the Fire Departments and those above them are allowing a fire such as we see that destroyed Gatlinberg was allowed to escalate for four days before action is taken, then for sure the tax payer is being raped along with the direct death counts involved. It is well understood the more time a fire is allowed to grow, then funds to put it out grow as well and exponentially. And with any math at all we know what an exponent does to a number–3+3=6 but 3 to the thrid powere is 9 and that grows with each day of increase. Not only do costs to the taxpayer grow exponentially–irreplaceable are lives lost and certain personal heirlooms and photos, etc.
I do have to believe someone running the show way up there wants these fires to grow–perhaps not because they give a shit for the money they are costing the tax payer–but because their theory on fire suppression is with the new think–the forest ought to be allowed to burn up now and again without man’s intervention.
The results of that line of thought might be another Yarnell–and in the case of the Gatlinberg deal it was civilians instead of GMHS. Still though the costs are way up there. And me being suspicious of human nature, I have to think someone is also allowing these fires to grow because big money is generated because of the fires being allowed to grow. There was after all a discussion about GMHS bosses padding the books here on IM–paying the crew while the crew was in the bar or relaxing at home. Whether the crew members themselves got the extra money–depends on how the padding was being arranged and what the crew did or did not know. .
I personally doubt the crew members even knew about it and that money was being kited around to someone or something else. But there was never an investigation on that since that would bear upon the hero image that everyone is so intent to put foremost. This would relegate someone to the scrap thief status–and in the hero category that should not but to some think that would relegate the whole of fire fighters to scrap thief status. Not so, since there will always be a rogue or a few in a group–some would even withhold evidence, keep quiet, even though they know it can and will cost lives of their fellow future firefighter–the man we hope is more honest and forward than what we see in the GMHS investigation–
I am designing on paper an invention that is a two cylinder engine that ought to get about 100+mpg and get your speed up to 200mph easily and quickly. I invented this when a kid in high school–drafted it out a few times but never bothered to try to get a patent. You would need a govenor on it since I would be guilty of killing half the teen age population. At least if they were like me–my hot rod 56 ford seldom was under 90 in those back roads of NM and I did kill at least three beef I remember and demolish the front in of a nice 57 pontiac. My Harley and 650 Bonneville Triumph ran the same and the Bonneville ran up between the hind legs of a bull sliding in off 80 and we together ran off the road–the bull survived, the Bonneville did not. So we ought to be careful of what we do–but the cop passed me on a yellow a few weeks back because my Sportster was doing a slow 45–he had important business–I was enjoying the nice day.
Maybe we don’t need such devices–technology already has cars up past 100mph and zippo speeds. My kid, the RN has one of these that gives 105 mph and I drove it. Nice little chevy and a good idea–not any emissions to speak of and does the job–gets there fast–can easily break speed limits.
Maybe these deadly fires can have some benefit even though they should not happen. I see them as a preparation for things to come if we see how poorly these emergencies are handled. Good lord can you imagine once the terrorists do begin to operate full scale? It tells us we better start using our own brains–not the political dummies that run things. If I had taken Marsh’s advice or followed his judgement you would have to add two more to the Yarnell count concerning burn deaths.
But this goes to show in a political regime yo yo thinkers too often become the leaders. So wisdom would tell us that we best prepare ourselves–depend less upon the political and crony system people to have good judgement.
Gary, I do believe that people did not particularly like either candidate. I refused to vote since neither I felt would be what we would want as a president. I am not good at the heil sign to anyone but perhaps comrades, we will be seeing it again–a new Trump Tower above the common man. I do not buy the hype from the Trump side, but who the hell wants a woman that so careless with information that should never be shared with other countries. That indeed these days compromises the country’s security
Now with your investigative abilities concerning arson, there is a 5 grand award here for the supposed arsonist, if indeed it was, that started the Yarnell Tenderfoot fire. It was not considered arson the burn out that burned some structures and did millions in damage caused by the tenderfoot fire department. But not much is said on that and Joy is finding that the locals are holding on to their records of what they did as if they are precious gold–not something you would share with an outsider. My opinion that the burnout was needles and neglectful, but then I am only a citizen with no wild land fire fighting abilities–especially burn outs. Except I see the resultant Jumbo Jet fire drops, thousands in electrical equipment and poles burned, the city again evacuated. That was due to the burn out not the fire over the mountain going away with prevailing winds toward bouldery and sparsely vegetated area for a self burn out. .Again this would be my humble opinion as an interested citizen.
Perhaps they will soon give Joy and the citizens of America her FOIA report so we I can have a less Jaundiced view of what I witnessed for the Tenderfoot fire during my stay–I did not evacuate, nor did Joy. Well Joy did for a run down the mountain but was back in a few hours.
Does the good one do cancel out the bad? I can tell you that in the public service department –first responders, etc. no, those are professions that demand honest operations.
And how about the main life — again a good seed planted brings up a fine plant. Rogue actions attracts the Leprechaun and he is a friend to Karma–loves to pay the dues to those doing wrong.
Well…you do understand that bitchin’ (non-gender specific) about Trump is just my new hobby along with yellin’ at the TV set…right? I mean…after all, I have bragged that I am only one generation out of the mountains myself and I spent my whole working life as a blue collar worker in fact or in attitude…so the Trump supporters are really my people. And I love my people
As far as the Tenderfoot Fire goes, that is something that I have compartmentalized just like I did the Twisp Fire and now the Smokey Mountains fires. It’s not that I don’t care…it’s just that there is only so much room in my memory cards, and my RAM is almost maxed out. I am also running off some really old processors and I am too old for any CPU or hard drive upgrades. I am just goin’ to have to limp across the finish line to the Pearly Gates as I am.
Thankfully…I am better on my worst days than most people are on the best days. And ole Bob (AKA RTS) accused me of bragging…HAH!)
Now…HAL 9000 can handle all of these fires and more at once, God bless his micro processors, but then again…I am pretty sure he has a plug and play system so it’s easy for him to get upgraded.
Well Gary at least you will get there to limp to the pearly gates-that might be better than hanging out in Dolan Springs, AZ for 8 years. I always tell people to live there gives you purgatory time.
Or could it be Gary that the ATF was investigating FS use of explosive devices to start uncontrolled prescribed burns?
ATF might be a good organization to check out the explosion of the fire we saw at Yarnell. Checking out the FS work might be a good idea since so much of their work is undercover–and I don’t only mean with the opposite or same sex there.
No they won’t, but before I could write this out, I saw on the news that two juveniles have been arrested for starting the fire in question. It could very well be that these two individuals used some type of homemade explosive device, which is also a common occurrence.
In the meantime, I am going to repeat a version of something I have written before. I know all of THOSE PEOPLE look alike to YOU PEOPLE…but there are very big differences in the alphabet soup of agencies we have discussed here on this thread and there is still a lot of confusion out there who is who. And since this is one of my self-appointed jobs, I am gong to try and point out the differences once again. It makes a big difference when trying to understand what happened where and who’s responsible.
For example Sonny, the FS, or the Forest Service, or the USFS, or the United States Forest Service, or the U.S. Department of Agriculture – Forest Service as they are officially known…had nothing whatsoever to do with the fires in Tennessee. They were light green shirts uniform shirts and they are a federal agency.
http://www.fs.fed.us/
The agency that owns the mess in Tennessee is the NPS, or the National Park Service, or the U.S. Department of Interior, National Park Service. They were light grey uniform shirts and Smokey the Bear ranger hats that are at least two sizes too small that restricts the blood flow to their brains.
https://www.nps.gov/index.htm
An interesting side note, the agency whose mascot is Smokey the Bear does NOT wear Smokey the Bear ranger hats. The USFS has some kind of really funky looking dress hat that makes everybody who wears it look like a goofball. Luckily for them, no one ever wears it unless they are posing for photo ops in Washington D.C. And just like the NPS wears Smokey the Bear ranger hats on a daily basis, USFS employees wear a cap, which is a cross between a trucker’s cap and a baseball cap with the USFS shield on the front of it if they wear anything at all.
The BLM, or the Bureau of Land Management, or the U.S. Department of Interior, Bureau of Land Management, wears light brown shirts and the same kind of cap unless they are too posing for a photo op in Washington D.C. in which case they also have a funny looking dress hat that makes them look like goofballs as well.
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en.html
An interesting side note is that the BLM law enforcement uniformed rangers DO wear Smokey the Bear ranger hats that are a different color than the one worn by the NPS. The only one of these hats other than the cap, which does NOT look goofy, is the Smokey the Bear ranger hat (which looks like a Canadian Mounties uniform hat, Yah sure…Yah betcha) unless you are a goofball anyway in which case you are going to look like a goofball no matter what kind of hat you put on. Thankfully…I never had to wear anything other than a cap when I wore a USFS uniform because I can assure I would have looked VERY ridiculous.
The U.S. Department of Interior, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service – They were a different color of light brown shirts and as far as FIRE goes, that’s about all the attention they deserve. In fact, it’s more than they deserve.
https://www.fws.gov/
The U.S. Department of Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs and hundreds of independent tribes – My attention span isn’t long enough to try and describe who THESE PEOPLE are except to say they are a real mess but much better than they used to be when they were managed by white people.
https://www.bia.gov/
There is an important POINT to all of this that I would like to make. And that is the USFS has NOT been directly involved in anything we have discussed here on this thread for the past 3 years other than as a shadowy agency that has its tentacles in EVERYTHING! And IMHO, virtually controls everything behind the scenes in the WF world much like a real life “KAOS” (which was the fictional “international organization of evil”) in the Get Smart saga.
And other than spawning people like Mike “Do Wrong” Dudley who was the stooge for the YHF SAIT and SAIR, and Ivan “The Red Czar” Pupulidy, who is the evil mastermind behind the USFS Ministry of Misinformation and Mind Control, they haven’t come out from behind the curtain to expose all of the levers and foot pedals they have been manipulating behind the scenes.
So here is a breakdown of the players;
The Yarnell Hill Fire – The Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management was the responsible party although the BLM played a major support role in mucking things up throughout the debacle as did a whole host of contributors from the wildland firefighting “community.” I think they recently added the “Fire Management” to their title for eventual plausible deniability they are the same agency that was responsible for the YHF.
https://forestryandfire.az.gov/
The Twisp Fire – The Washington State Department of Natural Resources. This agency serves the same function as the Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management. They…in addition to a whole host of contributors from the wildland firefighting “community” own the Twisp Fire. And I think the USFS was probably the biggest contributor by far to that effort because there isn’t any BLM land in Washington state, very few USFWS refuges with FIRE people and the same for the BIA, although there were probably plenty of Battalion Chiefs running around playin’ stinky finger on the Twisp Fire.
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/
The Tenderfoot Fire – see the YHF.
The Great Smokey Mountains National Park Fires – The U.S. Department of Interior, National Park Service owned that one in addition to a whole host of contributors from the wildland firefighting “community”, with probably a heavy contingent of State of Tennessee Department of Agriculture Division of Forestry. In addition to a lot of local fire departments including a lot of volunteers (no pun intended…you know, the Tennessee Volunteers…Go VOLS!”).
https://www.tn.gov/agriculture/topic/ag-eac-forestry
In writing this white paper I have learned that just like our federal government, the State of Tennessee also views their trees as a crop to be harvested since they put their Division of Forestry in their Department of AGRICULTURE instead of where it should be, in the Department of Interior, but that is an entirely new subject.
So…C’mon Sonny, you know I love you like a Dutch uncle, but you really need a reality check on the whole conspiracy thing. Fire retardant (slurry) hasn’t killed off the old people in Yarnell. Old age and progressive diseases (like heart dieses) has killed off the old people in Yarnell. It is also highly likely that the stress of the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath also indirectly killed off some of them, but not the slurry…or the fluoride in water or any Clinton Podesta child sex slave ring run out of the Comet Pizzeria in Washington D.C. as part of Pizzagate which has been heavily endorsed and pushed by PEOTUS Trump new National Security Advisor (May God Help Us All) General Mike “Fucked Up” Flynn.
C’mon now, people like me bathed in the stuff for years and it hasn’t affected…hasn’t affected…hasn’t…affected…hasn’t affected us that much. I mean…just look at ole Bob (AKA RTS), 26.5 years and counting. I know some people say he is really DIFFERENT and that he used to sit on rock outcroppings back in the day in nothing but a loin cloth, smoke herbs out of his medicine bundle and howl at the moon. But that is why we loved him…and the rest of the desert rat WF off the Tonto. Their brains got baked by the sun right inside their craniums. After all…ole Bob did learn how to speak fluent Navajo (and probably some other languages as well…who know…who knows…a lot of people say?). And that is not an easy thing to do because they didn’t even have a written Navajo language until fairly recently in history…and he still manages to find his way to wildfires…somehow?
So…
1. There was NO conspiracy beyond a Hail Mary plan on the YHF.
2. Our government just isn’t THAT good. I know, I worked for them long enough and just look at me? I mean…the CIA are the best we have and just look at what a mess they made out of Iran with the Shah, Iraq with Saddam, the Bay of Pigs and they couldn’t even kill off one revolutionary named Fidel right next door to us with countless attempts. The old bastard died in his bed smoking a big fat blunt of Cuban tobacco drinking rum.
3. There aren’t any satellite photos showing a backfire or a burn out that killed the crew.
4. There was no backfire or burn out that killed the crew. The YHF did a 180 degree turn during the height of the burn period and swept back down that valley pushed by very strong and erratic outflow boundary winds from a thunder cell just like it was predicted to do, exactly when it was predicted to do it that killed the crew. And then it marched right into Glen Ilha and Yarnell and came very close to killing dozens if not hundreds of citizens and other WF alike because the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office (YCSO) were missing in action that day. On top of that, the YCSO was advised by the YHF team collection of FIRE mercs who did what their employer wanted them to do; they cut corners and pinched pennies at every turn and at every step in addition to having their heads up their asses.
5. There were no explosives used on the YHF or any other wildfire for that matter other than a few napalm grenades, ping pong balls and helitorchs to get a good fire going here and there. And none of that happened on the YHF.
6. There are no smoking guns in Joy’s FOIA’s, there is only interesting minutia.
7. To insist otherwise is a distraction and will discredit our efforts here.
Okay?
Oh…and one more thing.
I hope Trump comes after me on Twitter just as long as he spells my name Olson instead of Olsen AND mentions my website,
http://www.atomicskies.net
I could use the hits!
Oh…and one more thing. I am officially changing Mr. Pupulidy nickname to reflect his true value to WF and as a nod to a historical figure, from now on I will refer to him as, Ivan “The Terrible” Pupulidy, USDA – FS Minister of Disinformation and Mind Control.
Please carry on.
Whoops, left out their acronym…USF&WS, otherwise known as U.S. Carp and Feathers…or something like that.
Just as a reminder, the BLM is also known as the Bureau of Land Owners and Mining, the Bureau of Laughing Matter whereas the USFS is known as the U.S. Forest Circus.
The NPS are just known as, “Those who wear Smokey the Bear hats at least two sizes too small”
And to really “get” the U.S. Carp & Feathers thing…you have to be familiar withe their uniform patch and agency symbol, in which case it’s kind of funny.
OK, well taken. The light green shirts does not mean the green light shirts. And restriction to their brains seems due to small hat sizes –I needed the laugh.
So now with Trump I will assume we get a new head of the Dept. of Interior?
With drones now able to carry incendiary devices, it won’t be surprising if the hate American types don’t hand out drones for Christmas gifts–I know they don’t cut trees, they blow them up or burn them if in America. So yes, I can see the ATF looking at these fires, maybe even the CIA. They might even be looking at crashed drones with the Moslem emblem on the wreckage.
Next will be curbing the purchase of drones–they are more dangerous than assault weapons. Fact is it depends upon whose hands they are in. I used to carry a case of dynamite in my trunk–how else can you get it to a mine? Ranchers, miners and anyone needing to blow a stump loose could get it and put it to good use. Very few people got hurt unless they intentionally blew themselves up. In all the years I lived and we had it even under our bed at times, the only people that I ever knew of getting hurt were the dummies that would meddle with a dynamite cap and blow a few fingers off or a dumb ass miner that drilled into a dud round. Dynamite, unless old and crystallized was and is relatively safe to handle and safer than handling a weapon because people are generally very cautious around it.
And I agree with Gary about Trump and he may prove to be more dangerous than a case of dynamite which is not so dangerous if treated correctly–for example don’t use it for pistol practice. But Trump may become a totalitarian–may already be from his history–and Hitler types always are dangerous. I do see that Trump has little mercy for the little man on the totem. Maybe the checks in a Republic as designed by the constitution will to a large enough degree deter the damage he is apt to do.
The ‘escaped Los Alamos RX Burn’ investigation and report is yet another huge cover-up and whitewash. Their conclusion that the burn was ignited just prior to a cold front is pure lies and fabrication.
The Winter and Spring months were very dry. The Southwest was experiencing numerous small human caused fires and escaped RX burns. The Los Alamos Burn Boss from Colorado never inquired about the conditions prior to ignition.
The Los Alamos RX Burn escaped within 30 minutes of ignition when the Fire Use Module failed to recognize the radically increasing fire behavior and shut it down. Like incompetent morons, they then continued to treat it as a controlled burn for the next several days.
The NPS tried numerous times to get HS Crews to contain it but the SWCC refused until they declared it a,wildfire. The very same scenario was,occurring on the Grand Canyon NP on the Outlet RX Burn. Otherwise, the NPS would have to pay for the Crews out of project dollars.
About 3 days after ignition, THEN the cold front came and blew both the Los Alamos and Outlet RX Burns out of their respective control lines.
Two HS Crews on their way home from other fires, were diverted to the Los Alamos RX Burn.
The Los Alamos was finally declared a ‘wildfire’ when one of the Santa Fe HS Supt requested an airtanker.
Because both were now escaped RX Burns, the NPS then deceptively focused as much media attention as possible toward the Outlet Fire and AWAY from the more controversial Los Alamos Fire.
See…Bob (AKA RTS) and I DO have more in common than that which separates us. I can even understand why he rolls the way he does politically…what with Roe v. Wade being up in the air with a couple of new Supreme Court picks over the next few years. I love almost all Republicans at least as much as I love all Democrats. So….
I did take Joy to her doctor appointment. He wanted to put her in the hospital right there. But instead Joy opted to call my cardiologist–and there is an appointment tomorrow. Whew, it was tough since Joy was throwing up on the way home.
Apparently the doctor did not like the read out on the heart,EKG, her high blood pressure, and the insistent chest pains she has been having for quite some time.
Is Joy another victim of the agent orange retardant? I do think so because Joy was in damn good health before the fire–had great hiking abilities. She told me that the last hike we did together from the deployment site back up to the two track and down the three mile trek back to Hwy. 89 took much effort and pain.
When will the EPA, WHO, FBI etc get involved in the retardant dumps killing our citizens and the wild land fire fighter of age. I do believe that these agencies will continue to wear blinders unless some start reading and checking on these facts.
So, yes, Joy, while waiting in the Wickenburg Dr. Office being the ever gregarious individual did strike up a conversation with a lady to find out she was a Peeples Valley Resident–likely about my age. See, this retardant is driving them in and if anyone can appreciate it, then is should be the medical profession. Their profits have gone up greatly.
While in the appointment I told the lady about Investigative Media–something she did not know. She said she would go to the site and I did encourage her to share her experience from the Peeples Valley view. She had photos, some she showed Joy, except Joy was called away to her appointment.
Believe me I do believe in prayer–those positive thoughts put into the ether do circulate around to the Irish Gods, Goddesses, and any other God types listening in–shit their super computers make ours look like kids play–so they commute those good thoughts and help heal and revive the ill person. The Psychics can do well too. See good deeds and thoughts from any source can only produce the good seed thereby planted. It is why Truth in the matter of these deaths is so important as well.
So whatever Deity you admire, please put in a good word for Joy and her health problems. We need her around–I could never follow her act to get the things done she is gifted to do in uncovering the real situation that went down between June 28 and June 30 late afternoon and forward after the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
Please let us know how joy’s appt with the cardiologist goes–thank you for keeping us updated.
Dianne–Dr. Murray had Joy go though a sequence of tests and has scheduled her for more–He will look over all the tests and she will be returning for a stress test scheduled in a couple weeks from now–unless I have to take her in before. Joy is not doing well but attempting to stave her pains off until Dr. Murray can collect his data for analysis as to what should be done.
Thanks for your concern–something that she and I appreciate much.
To people out there I would say if you see retardant dumps, stay away from them as far as possible–especially if you are one sensitive to chemicals. These days I can not stand to be near diesal smoke since I worked some years underground breathing it from machinery. Even strong perfumes are noxious to me while some love their smell.
So I will continue my rant against the use of these offensive chemicals near residences–the silent ones in the forest have only our voice to defend them.
Thanks to all else who do concern for Joy–I can attest being her hiking partner for about 8 years now that Joy is indeed a very positive and real person–nothing phony about her. She is after the facts in the Yarnell debacle.
She has suffered and overcome past trauma that would kill many, overcome dire health problems as well. As many deaths and as many people in the Yarnell area that are compromised in lung and health since the fire I have to believe that indeed the retardant is an enemy to human health.. I think Joy is one of the examples of retardant caused health disaster. I include myself on that list–not because I want sympathy but because I see the way this stuff is touted as a safe substance even knowing it is not an inert chemical. When you have a substance that has killed fish in the thousands and has dangerous ammonia emissions with hidden secret chemical composition then you wonder why no long term–even short term health effects of its dispersion been high on the federal World Health Organization study list.
RTS mentions the Los Alamos Fire where my sister was head of a secretarial group working for the scientists there during the 70’s. There was some and is some very dangerous substances there–she could not even talk to me about what she knew.
Yet the system allowed a controlled burn during the worse conditions in an area were those substances were abundant and such as he pointed out–how much was vaporized and allowed to join the smoke and air people were breathing there.
Only in this new age where people can discuss among each other the effects and knowledge of these things becomes public can we make a difference in facilitating changes to the betterment of all. Someone like Joy is a jewel when it comes to finding out these things and bringing this knowledge to the general public. Why her FOIA’s, even highly redacted as some are–remain so important. I might add some public service departments want to redact everything they have done–but to do that they better have a very good explanation of why since once challenged in court a Judge might not be so agreeable, especially if the law has been broken–it has already in many of her requests.
Thanks to all–December 10 is my birthdate–looks like I will make another one. A good sign–and I hope we all do make another. Hopefully our work here and in what we do helps ourselves and others to make more birthdays too–especially the young ones such as we saw lost at the GMHS deployment site.
Sonny,
Thank you for the information about
joy.
She does so much for others-just hope she can take care of herself now. She deserves it.
Here’s a link for a Detroit Free Press article by Haynes Hickman of the Knoxville News Sentinel, titled : “Cellphones never got message to evacuate horrific Tennessee wildfire.”
It goes into a lot of detail about all the things you all have talked about thus far. So, maybe there will be some additional information for you.
Plus it has 16 videos of the fire.
And of course, it helps to remember to include the link one references.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/12/02/gatlinburg-emergency-alerts/94795298/
** NIFC FTP SITE
**
** AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS AND PERIMETER MAPS FOR THE ‘CHIMNEY TOPS 2’ FIRE
Here is a direct link to the ‘National Interagency Fire Center’ ( NIFC ) PUBLIC FTP Server,
and the directory that contains ALL of the aerial photograps, infrared photography and ‘maps’ that =
were/are being used by management for the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire…
Some of the maps and aerial photography and infrared scans in this directory date all the way back to the origin of the fire on November 23, 2016.
http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/southern/Tennessee/2016_ChimneyTop2/
Again… this is a PUBLIC FTP SERVER that is maintained by NIFC to assist ALL ‘Interagency’ management teams around the country who are fighting wildfires.
There is even an HTTP ( web page ) ‘front end’ for this PUBLIC FTP SERVER telling anyone how to use the site… and direct links to the ‘Incident Information’ directories contained on that PUBLIC Server.
There is even a ‘notice’ on the ‘front end’ public home page that says…
http://ftp.nifc.gov/
——————————————————————
NIFC FTP Server Information
All information that is posted to h t t p : //ftp.nifc.gov must be: PUBLIC Information that is non-sensitive, unclassified, not copyrighted, and viewable by everyone.
——————————————————————
calvin… you will find the following ‘Fire Perimeter Map’ sitting in that NIFC FTP Server directory to be interesting.
It’s the ‘perimeter map’ being used as of TODAY by the Type 1 team… but it actually has ‘color shaded’ areas that show what is now believed to be the ‘perimeter’ of the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire dating all the way back to 24 hours after it started on November 23, 2016.
This map looks a lot like the one that was ultimately generated for Yarnell.
A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP of the area with various ‘color shaded’ fire perimeters dating back to the origin of the fire.
http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/southern/Tennessee/2016_ChimneyTop2/GIS/PRODUCTS/20161203/prog_11x17_land_20161203_0948_ChimneyTops2_TNGSP16062.jpg
NOTICE the ‘shaded’ area in the upper right corner of the map… far apart from everything else. That is actually the ‘Chalet Village’ area where almost HALF of the fatalities took place.
It seems ‘unbelievable’ that the fire would have spotted THAT FAR to the EAST on Monday night… but no one is ( as yet ) suggesting there was another fire ‘set’ in the ‘Chalet Village’ area prior to all the deaths.
Many thanks for the links.
But I think Chalet Village is just west of Gatlinburg. It is on the map between Gatlinburg and Cove Mountain.
The area you are describing is the Cobbely Knob fire. Said to have been started 11/28 night when a power line went down or a transformer blew, cant remember which right now.
Joy is going after FOIA material here –money distribution by the local Prysbyterian Church group called Yarnell Recovery Group. Seems every one involved in any capacity is skirting State Law and wanting to keep their records of what they did secret. Ten thousand dollars was donated to that group and was supposed to go directly to the McCrackins–they never received it despite their many queries–fortunately the man donating the check copied it and wrote on it for the McCrackins who had lost everything in the fire. The new building permit was in the amount of 10 grand alone–their insurance paid for some but not all of their rebuild costs. They did not deny getting the check but said it was going into the general fund.
But that is not all who are yet denying Joy an FOIA–Yarnell and Peeples Valley are top on the list and should be ready to anty up quickly to public or anyone concerned and interested in their good or bad works–whatever history or time proves and evidence.
Peeples Valley Chief denied to Joy that he knew or ever heard of Bob Brandon–an employee there for about 15 years. Talk about forgetfulness. Bob Brandon was a water tender during the fire–he stated publicly they were prepping a burn out at the Shrine–well yahoo–we saw the video of drip torches being used and even walked the area to make sure the low rock wall was still there as we saw in the video. We even drove to the Peeples Valley burn out area to make sure there was no similar vegetation and any rock wall at all along the dirt road where that burn out was videoed. Well we were not the only ones to see the burn out at the Shrine video that later evaporated. Norb, long time wild land fire Superintendent, retired told us he also so the video.
So when Joy asked the Peeples Valley Fire Chief if they were in the Shrine Area he denied it. I was there–yet later in a phone call with Joy he said he was not sure if his crew was in there–whoop te do–the recent video posted by WTKTT from U tube shows the Peoples Valley Water Truck leaving that very area above the Shrine on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Both Peeples Valley and Yarnell Fire Department are dragging their feet in getting Joy their FOIA’s. Peeples Valley Chief said the Blm took his records of Yarnell, he has none. BLM says that is not possible and they can not take away his records–they can take copies or look at them, but not origional records. Both departments are beyond the law as WTKTT has posted–but Joy has deterred and told them she intends to file suit if by Jan 10, she does not have records They seem oblivious to her letters and inquiries–all registered signature return mail. They seem to not care the penalties that the judge can incur for denial of public records by FOIA requests and are apparently smug in the belief they can continue to deny the public information.
Fortunately Joy records all conversations and these individuals that play the public and continue to deny vital information to Joy’s investigations make me believe they have much to hide. Why else would they risk a Judgement–fines that run $20 per day since the day filed if the person is denied and not even acknowledged–and to top it off it is a criminal act according to law. WTKTT has listed these laws — statutes that these departments do not seem to be aware of. even though Joy has notified them of the same.
Joy is into this, but what bothers me is why the big media with their big funds have not demanded these FOIA reports–but instead stand by and swallow all the hype we get from these entities. They seem to want to believe these people–obviously trying to hide information–yet the media seems to have no inclination to go after the truth. See the truth is written in these FOIA reports and despite their redactions if there are, they give us vital information to know what really happened.
Well Prescott Fire did no redactions to their credit. Maybe because they have nothing to hide. Maybe because they actually want the truth out there and what Joy has is valuable and paints a picture that ought to be known publicly–yet hers is not commercial. Maybe someone will get a commercial copy.
YSCO also did not redact. They even gave permission for commercial and Joy can speak publicly there. They are not hiding records by redactions. (Of course all must redact personal phone numbers, addresses and the like).
It is a shame when people that work for the public can hide their actions by refusing records. But then they can not–yet the audacity–then the necessity to go to the courts for remedy. A pain, but you can see Joy is a stickler and not backing down–It is records or consequences public entities.
So peeples valley and Yarnell fire depts are the ones resisting disclosure through FOIAs? What could they be hiding?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGyHu4iX5-Y
Video of person evacuating the Chalet Village near Gatlinburg…
People need to watch this to truly understand what the potential of fire and what it could look like, especially when you build in the interface and want to keep things “rustic”.. 1 road in 1 out….
CAUTION: Lots of swearing, but in this situation I cant blame the guy..
Thanks and very good Video Rocksteady–gets your heart rate up wondering if that guy would get out. All the deaths there and just like Yarnell –very little if any evacuation warnings and for too many no escape. It was how my heart rate was the day Joy was sitting there at the two track with her boots off, resting and watching the fireworks below that could turn and race up that mountain toward us at any moment. You can see my anger at having to return back to get her and loosing the 40 minutes she said it took me to return. See her feet were swollen and she was pretty much gone with fatigue and the 106 degree heat of the day, but she did not tell me and I did not know that. She was going to rest there more and had she and taken her route she would not be here today with those 1500 photos and testimony and memory of times and evidence that would have been lost forever.
It was an ordeal getting out that day and I too started being overcome with heat stroke. But I kept pushing knowing that anytime that fire could turn and overtake us. Even once when she balked coming down the other side I told her I would leave her and send an air vac in, but I knew that was not an option. If she were left behind there would be no option. I pointed out an water bag under a copter and told her that is a body bag, they are already taking out bodies of those men. It was actually an empty bladder but did look to be a body bag from our vantage point.
I did a lot of cursing I am sure, but very appropriate–If you have ever had your head bonked by a falling slab or your jaw broke open by a flying piece of steel then you will understand. I am certain some of the men were cursing and praying at the same time when they saw that wall of flame headed their way up that devil’s death canyon just above the Helms.
At any rate, we would have suffered the same fate and after a time I realized that we had only ten or 11 minutes or we also would have been cut off since we circled back to Foothills drive. The basin we were in did get cut off and we were in manzanita and brush, though not as thick as the death basin–and we were spent where running was not an option. In fact we had to stop for bits of rest due to the heat and stroke coming on.
Some would say why the hell would you go to a fire up on a mountain. I will let Joy answer that for her part. For my part, I would not have gone at all after it started and was left so long. But Joy was determined to go and I was not about to let her go alone and that would have been the only option. She can think her lucky stars I did go–who the hell leaves out at 3:30 am in the morning in pitch dark marching out across terrain that is so choke full of manzanita we were having to play the maze and like snakes crawl under that shit so many times just to get through it. Worse than basic training I did in the heat of July on the Fr. Bliss sands, then come back and those ass holes had us doing push ups on hot asphalt mid day–Ft. Bliss, next to El Paso is always around 101 mid day. Yet at least we were not having to fight the brush at Ft. Bliss and the machine gun fire over us kept our minds off the heat and dirt. Shit they had us firing blanks toward live machine gun fire.
But as to the experience of fighting our way through the brush in that very canyon the men died in, it did give me the understanding of what the hell they were caught in. With only two of us doing it together, we were having to aid each other in finding our way through. Can you imagine 18 men in that shit trying to get through it? You do not go lock step through that shit.
So you can see I was absolutely reluctant to go down into that shit while looking at a fire that had by now escaped the boulders and progressed to a position parallel and below the basin.
Good lord, did these men not know that fire will angle up a slope so damned fast and did so when it took over the mountain that I had Joy time. Remember, the wind was only a breeze toward Peeples Valley. When the thunderstorms whipped it back toward the men it became 20-30 mph winds and gusts to 45 mph. WTF–these leaders and likely the men knew these winds were coming–they were told and not only that they did not need to be told –they could see the profuse lightening and clouds looming not far to the NE. They had to have known, yet where were their alarm bells to not drop off into a no return box canyon like that. People hiking it now know and Joy says there is 80-100 per day since the opening of the trail.
It goes to show that training in manzanita is badly needed for green wild land fire fighters. Supervisors that forget that their main focus is to keep their men alive and fuck the structures as far as wild land fire fighters are concerned. A home owner has better chance to save his home than the Pulaski armed wild land fire figther has. At least the homeowner has his garden hose while if a wild land firefighter might have a bladder bag, what use is five gallons of water against an inferno.
People ought to be angered that these men were needlessly sacrificed to the fucking fire gods. I am.
And that new fire that we see the video of–was that a prescribed and uncontrolled burn that killed so many. And did it not have the signature of the Yarnell Fire–no evacuation orders in a timely fashion and will there be a study of the death aftermath list of the elderly and others due to the effects of retardant, stress and chemical smoke of the fire?
I can bet there will be plenty accolades afterward if it is anything like the Yarnell incident.
I better get a coffee –this stuff is heart rendering–and that video reminds me much of what we saw excaping the Yarnell fire. Joy did not take video but she did have still photos of embers hitting the windshield of the old station wagon where we had it loaded to the brim with all Penny’s stuff, her seven dogs, birds and things she did not want to loose. We had left all our things behind–I did not think Oak Ridge Apartment #15 would burn, it did not, nor did Penny’s trailer home. But the road out was so pitch dark from smoke we had to be within a few feet of the pick up in front just to see his tail lights. Everyone had lights on but no help to see the road and brights would reflect back so you had to use dims.
The stories go on. For Penny, the fire displaced her. She moved to Florida, came back for some time. A formerly very happy person that used to work in the Senior Center and always with a smile was not with a depressed and serious look when we saw her a few weeks ago–and the several times we saw her at the Dollar Store and PO–she was talking of moving again. She was not her old self and physically she looked down and mentally I could tell the world was not well for her.
These are the aftermath stories of these fires. The human degradation that came about because some fire fighters did not do their job or some ass started a control burn and did not properly prepare the people for the chance it would turn into a wild fire. It appears to me that some in the fire profession are angry that people build on private lands in forest or rural areas subject to fires. They seem to have the attitude that since they are in these areas they deserve to burn.
Will that attitude carry over when the Moslem terrorists start the big bombing of the neighborhoods in big town USA. Tragedy when it comes home will maybe give those heartless individuals a taste of what it is to loose all to a damned uncontrolled burn.
To clarify here Penny lost her residence due to situations directly related to the fire–as I did as well. Nine people were evicted from Oak Park soon after returning from the evacuation, and we were among them. Various excuses were used–ours was that we were delivering for United Way and that was disturbing the peace in the park.
But as to the loss of work at the Senior Center and Penny–She worked in the part where they sell used goods to people to help pay the free meals for needy Seniors. The workers are volunteers but get free noon time meals there. Seniors that are needy get free meals. I always paid $11 for Joy and I–$6 for her and $5 for myself. See if you want a meal there you can get it cheap enough if you like the menu. Sometimes the local EMT fire department goes there to eat and check blood pressures of the elderly there. A good thing to do but I have my own blood pressure thing so do not need it.
Good lord I have the best blood pressure yet still have had 7 heart attacks after the fire, I attribute that to both restriction in the arteries. However, the diminished lung capacity that began and escalated after the fire reduced the oxygen to the blood so that now I was getting the heart attacks. The 6 stents put in have opened up arteries but still I am reduced in capacity to my heart due to diminished lung cells directly resulting from so many hikes through the ammonia infested area and whatever other chemicals compromise the elderly fellow like myself. I can still hike but barely make it up that damn trail from the death site to the two track.
See, I am not the only one here with that problem. If you go around town here you will find that it is common and just like a short time ago when we were at the Post Office, some one was selling a water tank right behind the Post Office in that trailer park. I asked the guy why was he selling the tank–I might have used it on the five acres at Aguila–and he said His friend had just died of a heart attack in that trailer a few days ago. But he just added to the hundred plus seniors dead since the fire.
I don’t make these stories up though it would seem like it to me since so many happen. The remedies–I think only will come once the facts are known.
Then who are the actual heroes in this war against lies and cover ups. To me they are the people working to bring truth to these horrible fiascoes
I see too many of the books skirt the real issues, but they do shed some light on things. Too much media buys into the hype–Where we need strong talk and direct attention to the matters that have caused the deaths of many.
Gary Olson, WTKTT, John Daugherty, Joy Collura, Bob Powers, RTS, Dr. Ted Putnam, Woodsman are at the top of the list of strong talkers and many others included here on Investigative Media. Seekers of truth and heroes not backing down to tell it when they find it.
We hope Gary gets his book published soon. We need the direct talk and not the so called polite political correctness that bullshits people and tries to smooth over a bad thing. This political business has hidden the truth here are Yarnell and likely will in Gatlinberg if gone unchallenged.
One Frenchman said America is great because it stands for truth. When did we start becoming a political society afraid to bear the truth?
without all the data…and with only what you know Charlie/Sonny—-
how was it on a memorial trail you stated “Marsh and Steed killed these men…”
(odd looking face I am wearing/shaking my head)
I have to say on the Memorial trail of all places…you speak on the trails like you speak here….
I can’t say you change your lingo just because who stands in front of you…but it would be nice to have some discernment- one was a cousin to a loved one…as you said that…
And you saw with me Marsh not even with the crew at minimal and Donut you too can confirm that…and yet people were NEVER properly interviewed that were on scene that we saw even Donut but especially Eric Tarr and first on scene folks…can they state WITHOUT A DOUBT that the current Memorial Trail how the crosses are placed is ACCURATE to that final moment…Can anyone with all purity really think a man with as conditioned as he (Marsh) was for that terrain never the less going back to his home roots terrain would of led such a tragedy…I do not…I tend to think in my own humble opinion Eric Marsh was out and about scouting with minimal moments with another time to time that day and that person has never been properly interviewed….and I do think there was three men away from the other men and one was hurt…I believe Marsh was never THAT far away from all the men which was the 3 and then the rest and even Donut…this was not a military moment or orders…I think comprehension has been shifted…Eric Marsh was use to harsh conditions…one of those harsh conditions was Marsh’s having to deal with his crew tied to a city—it was an unfortunate moment with radios and misunderstandings is my belief I will die with with the data I have seen with such belief…and the way the crosses are at the deployment site I would like first on the scene folks to CONFIRM with PURITY if that is how they walked upon that moment…STOP protecting the living…What do you think Sonny of the crosses and the angle they are planted?
I am on an Organic Aromatic Chest Rub week…and rest few days but later in the week I do plan to hike the trail…healing my epithelium lining week with watermelon and celery and cucumber juices…I do plan to spend time with Sonny….been awhile since we spent time, huh…but I had to go to my storage unit and work on organizing my FOIAs…I plan to file the cases January 10, 2017
Interesting fact arose today and I went to YHRG with it and see how long it takes them to reply…
Joy… for what it is worth… I was interested myself to see what ( if any ) attempt to be ‘accurate’ was going to made with the placement of the crosses at the deployment site.
AS soon as there were ‘photographs’ of the ‘crosses’ available ( just prior to the ‘Family Members’ BETA Staff Ride ) I ‘checked’ the positions of the crosses against known ( Public ) diagrams and photographs.
I was thinking myself that ‘they’ might just have tried to make it look like the men were really closer together than they actually ( truly ) were.
That is not the case.
As far as I can tell… ‘they’ made an effort to be ‘accurate’… and accomplished it as well as anyone probably could have.
It DOES appear that they decided the locations for the crosses were all the spots where ( as well as could be determined ) the HEADS of the deceased were all located that tragic afternoon.
And they also didn’t try to hide the fact that Grant McKee ‘deployed’ far to the back and AWAY from the others, nor did they try to hide the fact that the men had to deploy in that ‘horseshoe’ shape because there was actually still uncleared and unburned vegetation right there in the deployment area that they didn’t even have time to get rid of… and they had to deploy AROUND ( and right NEXT to ) this ‘unburned’ vegetation as best they could.
I get that wwtktt but I am focused to the angle of the crosses planted…they do not face Helms- the mouth of the canyon but angles out towards Sesame/Shrine…what is the message in that…the flaming front than crossed over a boulderous hill that did not have much vegetation and the area right after it before the Helms…did it swoosh through at that angle was my meaning…not so much which men was where…where was the flaming front for this tragedy and where did it come from…the mouth or over be Sesame as they have angled the crosses…
Correct Joy. The fire could have easily come from the Shrine area, That is the exact direction the crosses face and not to far to that area. On the other hand coming around the ridge you would have thought the crosses would have faced more to the north ridge side. Either way the fires would have come up that narrow canyon to the left and below the basin in a rapid fashion. It is debatable how that fire came—and it would not have mattered if they were cut off from going back up–there is no way they could have gotten back up the mountain away from that front once it reversed direction and hiking that trail down will give you an idea how much they had trapped themselves by going down.
It is strange no one wants to talk about the back burns or burn outs started below the basin at the Shrine. And I can understand why–but it adds to the bad communications that there were men coming down above where they were lighting up the Shrine Area.
Dr. Ted Putnam believes and by his many trips and investigations, including interviews with relatives of survivors–(I think two survived while 13 died) that a Forest Ranger was actually setting fires below in another area that cut them off there–He deduces this from where the Ranger came out and the wind direction and no possibility of fires starting in that area so that the men did not even know the Ranger had started another burn without their knowledge until it was too late. I know he is doing a paper about the Mann Gulch fire which he believes was another cover up since the state did not want the fact out and at that time willfully changed facts–even the locations the bodies were actually found were moved. Once he got his data and proof of where the men actually were when they died and not where crosses were put, he was able to come to some sad conclusions. In that case it is believed they had a Forest Ranger arsonist–his actions killing 13 men. Of course that is 60 years ago, but has taken this long for someone of expertise to investigate.
I hope he gets his paper out soon with evidence on that fire–I would like to read it. Ted was somewhat black balled after he was on the investigation team at Storm King that killed 14. He told me he thought the investigation was too cursory just like Yarnell and it did not help or address issues that would concern saving future wild land fire fighter lives. We might add civilian lives after this Gatlinberg thing.
And add the millions on these things as well. What will be the total tally? In the tens of millions likely.
Someone said this might be a prescribed burn. Is there any more said on that. Will Satellite images prove it was or was not? If so then you can bet they are already redacted.
What people do not know that run these things is that there is the internet and so many gifted persons, not only in intelligence but with investigative abilities so that lying to the public becomes a dangerous proposition. People that run debacles including what we saw at Storm King, Yarnell and the new killer fire certainly need to be brought up before long time experienced peers, especially those retired who knew and kept their crews alive for years to let these people evaluate the performances of the operations and so that the culprits can be accountable.
Charlie said: It is strange no one wants to talk about the back burns or burn outs started below the basin at the Shrine.
MY REPLY: I spoke with a firefighter yesterday who held a meeting July 2013 when a firefighter who was on that scene on 6-30-13 who was left behind and that man said YES they were in plan to do a back burn in that area but he was not aware that it was actually played out Sonny and felt to this day due to reports it never did end up happening and he has faith in his higher ups—he has to—but YES he is alive and told others early on but ceased talking since 2013- and when I mean ceased talking- I mean he will not talk again on the topic. I start to wonder how much of this is America’s industries all around; rigged of the so called “winners” for the “winners” and by the “winners” and screw the hard working people…How come my phone went off earlier very loud alert when it is off for an amber alert in Safford but on 6-30-13 none of the 3 phones did that to say a raging fire was in our backyards…who the “cheese and crackers” are these people who come on here or in the media or does speaking engagements getting paid to state false shit to make people believe…and blame the “cheese and crackers” weather…blame anywhere they “cheese and crackers” can and call us the problems because we ARE affected by the negligence and want for a positive change from the tragedies sooooo noone else has to fee this P A I N and I truly hope you behind the scenes tomorrow get those powerful “cheese and crackers” to WAKE THE “cheese and crackers” UP because I have never had a melt down like this in my entire “cheese and crackers” life!!!! This Tennessee fire and talking to people I know out there has me fired up…I know very very very very old people in my family there in that region of the world and I had a terrible moment to my life happen there in 1992 and again in 2002 I cannot “cheese and crackers” believe it is 3 plus years later here in Yarnell and I have BLM cannot make sense of my new “cheese and crackers” FOIA and why the “cheese and crackers” not…if YCSO says they moved their investigation to blm investigation and I ask for that and they “cheese and crackers” tell me NO RECORDS…who is the “cheese and crackers” record keeper then…I know I am on my knees weeping here so deep…I know the “cheese and crackers” game you are playing you “cheese and crackers” assholes with these peoples’ lives…I hope karma happens and your day where you are affected just as many are…what the hell is $1,000 gonna do Dolly—you want to fix the problem then stop hanging out with Smokey and hang out with the people who want to make a difference ….I am beyond sad…
If one PUBLIC agency says they have ‘given’ PUBLIC records over to another PUBLIC agency… but then that second PUBLIC agency tries to say they do NOT have those PUBLIC records…
…then according to both Arizona Open Records AND Federal FOIA laws… you ALREADY have a right to file an ‘appeal’ and/or a ‘lawsuit’ to shake those PUBLIC records loose.
And you have the right to ‘file’ against BOTH of the “cheese and crackers: ‘PUBLIC’ agencies in the ‘loop’ here… because they are BOTH most likely “cheese and crackers” LYING to you AND “cheese and crackers” breaking the “cheese and crackers” law.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 5, 2016 at 3:02 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I get that wwtktt but I am focused to the angle of the
>> crosses planted… they do not face Helms – the mouth of
>> the canyon but angles out towards Sesame/Shrine…
Your own photos from the deployment site that you posted ( publicly ) just the other day show that the ‘crosses’ are NOT really all facing in ANY one particular direction. They are facing in ALL directions.
So I wouldn’t try to ‘read too much’ into the ‘angles of the crosses’ thing.
I don’t know what criteria they were using for ‘deciding’ which way to face any one particular cross… but it certainly seems like it didn’t have anything to do with what ‘direction’ someone might have thought the fire was coming from.
Here is just one of the photos sitting in your own public Dropbox which shows that the crosses at the deployment site are NOT all ‘facing’ in any one particular ‘direction’…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oc66p6kr81xfie4/AACap21RDhAWQ7_t41XPWmxSa?dl=0&preview=1130161007.jpg
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> what is the message in that…the flaming front than
>> crossed over a boulderous hill that did not have
>> much vegetation and the area right after it
>> before the Helms… did it swoosh through at that
>> angle was my meaning… not so much which
>> men was where… where was the flaming
>> front for this tragedy and where did it come
>> from… the mouth or over be Sesame as they
>> have angled the crosses…
Even though the SAIR document is mostly ‘bullshit’… there still isn’t much reason to dispute the ‘deployment site diagram’ they published on PDF page 92.
It has a NORTH arrow and the top of the diagram shows the DIRECTION they ( the SAIT investigators ) were assuming the fire ‘came from’ as it arrived at the deployment site.
And that ‘direction’ is still what has always been assumed ( and never disproven ).
By the time the fire reached them… it was traveling UP the blind box canyon, from EAST to WEST, driven by ‘chimney effect’ winds which kicked in AFTER it entered the mouth of that canyon.
But in all reality… by the time those men crawled under their shelters… there was probably a lot of ‘area ignition’ going on from both the oncoming flamefront AND from the ‘fires’ THEY set all around themselves just before going into their shelters.
And I think the ‘forensic evidence’ ( and autopsy reports ) supports that.
Ultimately… there seems to have been ‘direct flame contact’ on various members of the crew from ALL different ‘directions’, and not just from any one particular ‘direction’.
Well at least Marsh if he was put right knew how to protect himself–be the fartherest one back from the fire front in the group. Nothing against that, but practical knowledge.
Look Here Joy– It was a simple thing to know, especially if you were a firefigher that once that fire exploded into the manzanita–as thickly covered as all the east side is and all along the base of the mountain all the way from the old grader and Donut’s last stand right up to the BS ranch and right up against the North Side of Glen Isla and the West side of Yarnell–that there is no way you would enter the entanglement of that manzanita with an expoding wild fire very close by. Two miles is very close since even at the puny estimates of the fire advancing at 11 mph in 20-30mph winds and gusts to 45mph–that would mean when the promised winds changed they would only have four minutes to get the hell out of that box canyon. These guys have this knowledge droned into their heads but they disobeyed the natural laws and their own personal safety laws. No lookout–he was out of sight and out of mind–no escape route once down in the canyon— and poor communication–and absolutely no safety zone–that was bullshit calling that BS ranch bomb proof–the walls were scorched, tires burned off vehicle within 20 or thirty feet of the home with 50-100ft. flames licking the walls–and the only safe zone they had was in the black where they were at when called to come down and protect structures.
The phone call where Marsh says we are in the black and safe, call the Blue Ridge to action to protect structures gives you the proof. Since of course they say that communications were lost–another bullshit story–then you do not hear what changed Marsh’s mind after that. We do know communications were not lost since you were talking to your mother in that very same area a bit earlier–and that was her in New Jersey.
So we know Marsh did not just up and jump at the exciting idea to risk his young crew unless he had someone or more prodding him to go. He even by testimony had to argue with Steed, even again against the idea.
No I never have blamed Marsh and Steed altogether but they gave in to their bosses. The men themselves absolutely did not volunteer to suddenly drop off into a widow-maker situation. But their training of strictly taking orders on a daily basis, the Greek God status of Marine Man Steed and the fact they knew he had dropped off in the night in one situation fighting bears with a chain saw, make him a very hard individual to refuse to take orders from. They did, Steed did–he did what he expected from his men–Marsh did–despite his breaking of all rules. Simple–their dids killed the men.
Now about the crosses–I suppose they faced them toward the direction of the fire front but whether they were placed in the exact position of each body and each person–I would hope so–it says much of who was close and who was smartest.
If you look behind about 20 yards there is a revine of sand and a depression that was a better spot. The lower you can get the better–firemen will tell you in a burning house, crawling out might be the best option since heat rises. There are some large boulder fields–more bomb proof than the BS ranch–if there is such a thing in a fire releasing such tremendous energy–still we hiked it the other day down though those very boulders they could have run to in 70 yards. I pointed out several caves below ground under the boulders–that one had room for 6 or 7 guys–another ten or so, some two or three but all below the fire and 6 ft. or more below ground. People that hike there can now also hike the park into that boulder field and witness this.
In a court of law, it would go beyond reasonable doubt that Marsh, Steed, and the crew were strictly following orders–Marsh proved that with the little bit of communication evidence that was allowed to be aired. The dead did speak before the death–but there was more and is more–some Joy has uncovered–much said and retracted by Donut–he did not lie about the arguement–but lost his mind later.
The qualifications posted in case you want to be a wild land fire fighter were in Yarnell for the longest–“YOU MUST STRICTLY TAKE ORDERS ON A DAILY BASIS” The word MUST means you will not have a job if you do not take those orders–why the men are touted as such heroes for sticking together–no one ran to the boulders to save his ass–instead committed the mass suicide with the others.
When Jim Jones killed 900 in Guiana many accepted the order–maybe the majority to take the poison. Some that did not had guards pointing automatic weapons at the ones not willing to obey the command. The weapons at the Yarnell disgrace were the bosses on site and whoever else was in charge above the on site bosses. There is no way you could tell a jury different if you even presented only the evidence now available. There is more indeed. Maybe Dr. Ted Putnam and his sources will come forward and maybe they already have but the information is not well known except among a few involved in wild land fire fighting. It is well known that public information is at a premium–don’t believe it then go get your FOIA at the BLM on Yarnell Hill Fire–$814 for Joy’s and you can not share the information by law so only you know. If you want to share, the cost escalates greatly. Joy did not have the means, but spent the money anyway. I would not and did not–I just can not afford 800 nor do I want the added bill to my credit card.
Charlie said: don’t believe it then go get your FOIA at the BLM on Yarnell Hill Fire–$814 for Joy’s and you can not share the information by law so only you know. If you want to share, the cost escalates greatly. Joy did not have the means, but spent the money anyway. I would not and did not–I just can not afford 800 nor do I want the added bill to my credit card.
MY REPLY:on BLM Sonny I was an OTHER which means I can talk on it…I won’t touch base on your finances so please do not air mine…Yours is more reckless than I could ever be…mine is search for the truth…yours is to connect to your ancestor the Leprechaun…which there is no pot o’ gold my freind at the end of the rainbow…and the rainbow is just some hologram anyways..
Reply to Charlie post on December 5, 2016 at 3:05 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Well at least Marsh if he was put right knew how to protect
>> himself–be the fartherest one back from the fire front in
>> the group. Nothing against that, but practical knowledge.
Based on the available evidence… that is NOT TRUE.
The repository for ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ related reports and documents at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center still contains a copy of the original SAIR document… and that repository is here…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=1a2dac92-1d79-420f-be0e-1aa616a40a70
On PDF page 94 of the SAIR document is that original ‘diagram’ of where all the men were ‘found’ at the deployment site… including a rough sketch of their ‘body positions’ and where their heads were and which direction their feet were pointing.
The diagram also has a NORTH indicator, AND its own ‘arrow’ indicating HOW ( from which DIRECTION ) the SAIT investigators determined the fireline first ‘hit’ the deployment site.
As much as the SAIR document can be criticized… and is./was, ‘full of shit’… there has never been any serious evidence presented to dispute the actual ‘accuracy’ of this ‘diagram’ of the deployment site they came up with… or the SAIT’s determinations about how the fireline first ‘hit’ the deployment area.
The SAIT had access to the actual YCSO ‘Pharo 3D’ 3-dimensional photography that was taken at the deployment site BEFORE the bodies were removed and it has always been assumed that they used these 3D photos to help come up with that ‘diagram’ of where everyone was found and what direction they were facing when they deployed.
The three individuals who were on the ‘leading edge’ of the deployment group that was ‘facing’ the oncoming fireline were…
Eric Marsh, William Warneke, Clayton Whitted, Kevin Woyjeck, Travis Turbyfill and Wade Parker.
Given the SAIT’s own ARROW at the top of the diagram which shows what THEY determined to be the actual ‘direction’ the fireline was moving when it ‘hit’ the deployment area… it can be said that ALL of the hotshots listed above were ‘equally close’ to that edge that would have been the first to ‘take the hit’ from the oncoming fireline.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Now about the crosses–I suppose they faced them
>> toward the direction of the fire front
I’ve seen many photos of the ‘deployment site’ now and the ‘crosses’ that are all installed there, including the ‘latest’ photos that Joy posted from her visit to the park on the first day it was open to the public… which she posted HERE…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oc66p6kr81xfie4/AACap21RDhAWQ7_t41XPWmxSa?dl=0
There’s really no way it can be said they are all ‘facing’ in any one particular ‘direction’ at all.
I don’t know what they used for their ‘criteria’ in determining which way to ‘face’ any particular ‘cross’ as it was being installed… but it certainly didn’t have anything to do with what ‘direction’ the fire was coming from and what they ended up with was a haphazard arrangement with crosses ‘facing’ in various ‘different’ directions.
So it cannot be said that the ‘orientation of the crosses’ has anything to do with what anyone might have thought about which ‘direction’ the fire was coming from that day.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> but whether they were placed in the exact position of
>> each body and each person–I would hope so
As I told Joy already… I did my own ‘check’ on this based on available ( public ) photographs both from the post-deployment SAIT site visits and then photos of the ‘crosses’ as they started to become available around the time of the ‘Family Members’ BETA Staff Ride.
Whoever was ‘in charge’ of placing all the crosses appears to have done about as good ( and as accurate ) a job as anyone could have.
Whoever this person was most likely had the same ‘access’ to the original YCSO Pharoh 3-D images taken BEFORE the removal of the bodies that the original SAIT and ADOSH investigators did.
Unless someone wants to ‘double check’ me and prove me wrong… I believe it’s safe to say that the placement of the ‘crosses’ at the new State Park are about as ‘accurate’ as they even could be, given the full circumstances and the condition of some of the bodies following the burnover.
Typo above. Meant to say SIX instead of THREE.
Line above should have read like this…
“The SIX individuals who were on the ‘leading edge’ of the deployment group that was ‘facing’ the oncoming fireline were… Eric Marsh, William Warneke, Clayton Whitted, Kevin Woyjeck, Travis Turbyfill and Wade Parker.”
Followup…
Here is just one of the photos sitting in Joy Collura’s public Dropbox which shows that the crosses at the deployment site are NOT all ‘facing’ in any one particular ‘direction’…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oc66p6kr81xfie4/AACap21RDhAWQ7_t41XPWmxSa?dl=0&preview=1130161007.jpg
Simply stated the rule followed that day of death of 19 was not the LCES but instead the rule strictly obey orders on a daily basis. Marsh had to be the prime example of doing that–blindly obey those orders and allow that mandatory rule to prevail over the LCES safety rules. We still–as Joy says know who the mystery man that was with Marsh before the fire a few hours before the descent into the death basin. Joy’s photo has Marsh and this man together–we know Marsh by his red hat–who is this man with the white hat–all the GMHS crew wore black hats. This man knows who he is and he knows a lot more — he undoubtedly reads this blog–would he come forward and tell us he was there, who he is and what his role was and why he was there? It would be greatly appreciated–his input might even save future fire fighter lives and tax payer money.
About truth–not long ago people believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. A few thousand years ago, the history tablets and writings state that the gods got pissed at the people they created and flooded hell out of them, killing nearly all. The few that survived included Noah and company and others depending on the texts your read–the Bible, the older Indian writing, and the even older clay tablets a few thousand years older than any of the parchment writhings but about the same disaster. It is in an unearthed jar that one Van Danken pointed out that there is a depiction in clay on the side of the urn with the sun in the middle and the planets revolving around with their proportional sized in correct order. The urn was over 4500 years old from the archaeological site. So someone knew the truth about the planets revolving around the sun that many years ago.
It is very strange that the Christian religion would burn the whole library at Alexandria, Egypt of all the ancient knowledge. That same religion would burn at stake any hypocrite that would challenge the church’s idea about how things were. For example Galileo and Leonardo de Vinci had to write in code and hide knowledge of these things that were before known–else they would be burned at the stake. When the catholic fathers went to South America and found Mayan, Aztec and other writings of history, they were declared heretical and destroyed and burned. Shame on those type Christians, but not the fellow following good principles like being good to your neighbor instead of being a snitch–be a help.
I really believe all religion will be challenged by the Irish Gods–and perhaps the Goddess-God on the main will get out the truth and whatever that may be. The Book of Revelation speaks to the end of times and nuclear strikes–plagues, etc. I do believe the Goddess-with help of the Gods did make a man from a monkey but unlike Darwin thought, they just manipulated the DNA and added perhaps as well since 23 additions are not accountable by the idea of evolution. Evolution is a good idea since the God’s have played around with the DNA enough to get a monkey to a Neanderthal and a Neanderthal to a man. We still have Neanderthal genes found in a percent of the population and a few degenerated Neanderthals running around on the planet–some without anything but animal conscience.
So Joy just called and tells me that Elizabeth–not Elizabeth the Law Professor, but Elizabeth the Psychic has been looking at the situation this morning and was walking around up there in Spirit. Do not laugh, this lady has special abilities of the mind and has hit everything she has said including knowing where every problem tumor was with Joy, her health problems pointed out specifically and remedies. Those were verified by medical doctors and their machinery looking into the body–MRI, etc. Anyhow she says the crosses are not set right–and Dr. Putnam has lots of information he has not told. Maybe he is waiting for a specific time or has other reasons.
So food for thinking and I do agree with Trump, though I am not a fan of his, We absolutely need to keep the Muslim factor out of this country–deal with the ones we have is enough until the assimilate if they ever do. Free thinkers like myself and most here will be shot if they take over and especially Christian blokes who can’t love Allah and that Moslem camel rider that wrote up the Muslim Koran. I don’t think of burning the Koran–but they think of burning the Bible and you better not get caught with one in Moslem land.
Well it is a thought since Gary uses the heil sign on Trump. I do remember that Hitler was a fan with the Muslim countries–though Trump does seem to want to limit their entry into this country. I have to agree with him on that count. Look at Germany who brought in millions of the displaced ones. Was that a salute to Hitler–well either way Germany is bearing the problems and they are huge having those millions of Muslims added to their populations. So they want to take the masks off the women? We ought to take the masks off anyone–here we had the stage coach robbers with masks, now we have the swat teams and police hit teams wearing masks–just like the murdering ISIS terrorists.
The deal is in a free society you can wear a mask–as long as you are not using it to commit a crime. It is a good idea to have one in a blizzard–or a sandstorm, or a chemical attact, etc. but anything else is suspect.
The masks we see concerning the Yarnell homicides (negligent)–we are trying to remove.
beautiful rocksteady
this is the kind of footage Glen Ilah folks ahred to me but needs to be public so thank you for a similiar scene to what I seen in Glen Ilah 6.30.13
that seems like the way you drive Sonny…you would say the tree was in the way…bam and over it and keep going
When logging I always carried a couple chain saws –numerous times we had to cut our way out when logs would somewhere on the dirt road fall from winds and block the road.
I was wondering when that guy would run into a burning log blocking the road–and yes in that area the only thing might have been to push the log or throw a chain on it if you could and drag it aside–providing you were not driving a roller skate like my Nissan Versa but had a good heavy 4×4 as most loggers and wild land fire fighters do.
Now off to get the mail in the Versa–Yarnell has already burned so I am safe.
There is more to this video. It begins when Mr Luciano is still at his cabin. I think the complete video is about 20 minutes.
But you have already seen how it turns out..
where is the start of the video Calvin?
Micheal Luciano facebook
Reply to calvin post on December 4, 2016 at 7:26 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> I clipped the pics I have off of Facebook from a hiking group I follow.
>> A quick search of pictures related to the Chimney Tops 2 fire will give you some idea
>> of how the fire looked early on. And you can possibly make out the separate columns.
Copy that.
Here’s an interesting one…
https://mgtvwate.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/chimney-2-fire-11-27-16-1-small.jpg?w=650
According to the photo filename and timestamp ( and EXIF information embedded in the photo itself ) it was taken at 5 minutes past NOON on SUNDAY, November 27, 2016 ( the day BEFORE the fatal blowup circa 6:00 PM on Monday, November 28, 2016 ).
From this photo’s EXIF embedded data…
Create Date: 2016:11:27 12:05:37.00 ( PM )
Date/Time Original: 2016:11:27 12:05:37.00 ( PM )
It’s hard to say whether it indicates TWO ( or more ) ‘separate’ fires up there on the ‘Chimney Tops’ peaks… but I suppose there could be.
It is, of course, a photo from Sunday, November 27… and some 48 hours AFTER the November 25 photos you say you saw ( which, themselves, were 48 hours after the start of the fire on November 23 ).
Regardless… this SUNDAY photo does NOT look like a fire that would be capable of ‘spotting’ 4.17 MILES to the NORTH, in order to cause the Monday morning fire reported a the “Twin Creeks Resource ( Science ) Center”.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also, that map at Wildfire Today that shows the spot fire and the Chimney
>> tops area is interesting because it shows 3 yellow marks at the original
>> fire area. This could represent 3 separate fires right there on the peak
>> at Chimney Tops
Perhaps… but regardless of what the fire looked like right after it started, it’s interesting to see the photo above taken at NOON on Sunday… the day BEFORE the fatal ‘blowup’.
Again… it certainly does NOT look like any kind of fire capable of ‘spotting’ and/or ‘throwing embers’ even just the 4.17 MILES to the north to that ‘Twin Creeks Resource ( Science ) Center’.
There is definitely ‘more to this story’ that hasn’t come out yet.
Followup…
Here’s the full ‘article’ where that photo above was actually ‘published’…
ABC CHANNEL 6 – WATE
Great Smoky Mountain National Park requests information on Chimney Top 2 fire origin.
http://wate.com/2016/12/02/great-smoky-mountain-national-park-requests-information-on-chimney-top-2-fire-origin/
Another set of interesting ‘photos’… and THIS article says that the ‘new’ fire that was reported just 1.32 miles south of the ‘Park Vista’ hotel ( and the outskirts of Gatlinburg itself ) at 11:30 AM Monday morning was just 150 yards behind the ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion’…
WBIR
Article Title: Chimney Tops Fire Growing because of Strong Winds
Article SubTitle: Fire in Smokies grows to 500-plus acres in size
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/chimney-tops-fire-growing-because-of-strong-winds/356957561
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
The fire is currently moving northeast, burning primarily along the ground layer through duff and leaf litter. Gusting winds have caused the fire to spot across the ridges in the Chimney Tops and Bullhead Ridge areas.
On Sunday, three helicopters dropped water on the area to help control the fire in the extremely steep, rough terrain. More ground firefighters have been requested to help out on Monday because of the expected high winds.
It appears that the fire was human caused and is under investigation. If anyone has any information, they are asked to call the park’s Tip Line at 865-436-1580.
Another fire was reported just after 11:30 a.m. Monday just 150 yards behind the Twin Creeks Picnic Pavilion off Cherokee Orchard Road. It’s not known yet if this is a separate fire or if it’s an offshoot of the Chimney fire. National Park Service firefighters and the Gatlinburg Fire Department have responded to the area, and the Tennessee Division of Forestry is also responding to the area to stage equipment for use as needed.
————————————————————————————-
“Another fire was reported just after 11:30 a.m. Monday just 150 yards behind the Twin Creeks Picnic Pavilion off Cherokee Orchard Road.”
Again… that “Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion” was just 230 yards WEST of the actual “Twin Creeks Natural Resources ( Science ) Center” there off of ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’.
‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ was a completely ‘nice’ two-lane PAVED ROAD that leads straight down from the ‘Park Vista’ Hotel there on the southwest edge of Gatlinburg… and that PAVEMENT continued all the way to the ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion’ itself.
So if this ‘new fire’ being reported at 11:30 AM Monday really was just 150 yards ‘behind’ the
Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion… then it was EASILY reachable by any Fire Engine ( Type 6 or
other wise ) that had at least 150 yards of hose onboard.
And this article DOES contain reports of firefighters ‘responding’ to that ‘new’ fire reported at 11:30 AM on Monday… but does NOT say if those firefighters were able to accomplish anything even though it was just 150 yards off of PAVED ROADS.
It’s also interesting to note that this is one of the only references to the “Tennessee Divison of Forestry” ( TDF ) actually getting ‘involved’.
It still remains to be discovered how ‘involved’ the TDF was in any/all of this… including whatever efforts were ( or were NOT ) being made since the original fire started on November 23, 2016.
Also note that the reporter is saying that THREE ‘Helicopters’ were utilized on Sunday… but GMNSP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ kept insisting during the Tuesday news conference that he was using FOUR Helicopters on Sunday.
Followup…
As far as the ‘text’ of that article above goes… I haven’t been able to verify it but it sounds very much like “press-release-speak” and “National-Park-Service-speak”.
The TEXT of that article may very well be just a ‘cut-and-paste’ from this ‘bulletin’ that GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ SAYS he ‘sent out’ at 11:30 AM that Monday morning, November 28, 2016.
I haven’t been able to find a copy of that original ‘send out’ from GSMNP… but they said they sent it to the ‘local media’.
So that text above ( including the report about the NEW fire at the ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion’ ) could be, word for word, what ‘Cassius Cash’ actually ‘sent out’ on Monday morning.
CONFIRMED
The following article CONFIRMS that the ‘text’ in the article above really is the actual ‘bulletin’ that was sent out around NOON on Monday by ‘Cassius Cash’, the Superintendent of the GMNSP.
The Knoxville Sentinel
Article Title: Wildfires lead to evacuation of downtown Gatlinburg
Published: 8:07 a.m. EST November 29, 2016
By: Travis Dorman and Steve Ahillen , Knoxville News Sentinel
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/local/tennessee/2016/11/28/rain-just-what-east-tennessee-firefighters-ordered/94535434/
From that article…
—————————————————————————-
The Gatlinburg Fire Department has ordered the mandatory evacuation of the city of Gatlinburg as wind conditions worsen and several fires continue to grow increasingly unpredictable and dangerous.
“We were just told by the Gatlinburg Fire Department that they had told everybody in Gatlinburg to get out,” said Judy Tucker, director of Sevier County’s E-911 call center, around 9 p.m. “… No one’s getting through to anyone. Phones are ringing and not being answered anywhere.
It’s chaos.”
The Twins Creek fire was the SECOND in a week in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, the first being a fire near the Chimney Tops area, which has grown to cover more than 500 acres since it was reported last week.
In a news release on Monday, park officials said they closed Newfound Gap Road, Cherokee Orchard Road, Elkmont Road and several trails in response to the Chimney Tops fire.
—————————————————————————-
At this point in the article… they then ‘reprint’ the ‘text’ of that ‘news release on Monday’ from ‘park officials’… and it is ‘word for word’ the same text that also appears in the article above.
** THE ‘TWIN CREEKS’ FIRE
Notice also that the article above ( which was published at 8:07 AM on Tuesday morning ) specifically refers to the “Twin Creeks Fire”, and also specifically says it was ( at least on Tuesday morning ) still being considered a SEPARATE fire from the original “Chimney Tops” fire.
So this article says that fire that was first reported to the media ( by Cassius Cash ) at NOON on Monday had its OWN NAME… the “Twin Creeks Fire”
It may very well turn out that this “Twin Creeks Fire” is the one that totally ‘blew up’ when those ( predicted ) extreme winds hit it circa 6:00 PM Monday, and it was THIS ( separate ) “Twin Creeks Fire” ( and not really the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire ) that turned into the ‘conflagration’ that marched right into Gatlinburg.
That makes the ‘details’ of this ‘Intial Attack’ ( or lack thereof ) on the fire that was there at that “Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion” on Monday morning even more critical to “knowing what really happened”.
Thanks for the links to the Gatlinburg, TN fire articles and photos.
The photos very clearly show me the potential for the fire behavior that ultimately ensued once the dry cold front arrived. No surprise there.
We’ve said for years that the Southeast Region would have deadly, devastating wildfires whenever they get ‘Western fire weather conditions’ like LOW relative humidities. The fuel beds and fuel loadings here are incredible.
And the citizens do virtually no Fire-wising or mitigation whatsover.
I’ve been on fires in Kentucky and Alabama for the past month.
We dealt with the same cold front but much less wind in Alabama
Thanks again for the updates.
The official ‘National Park Service’ post-fatality statements say that all of this was the result of ‘unpredicted weather’ and ‘unpredictable fire behavior’.
Total horseshit.
Just before Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters literally ‘shoved’ GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ away from the podium at the Tuesday morning ‘press conference’ ( and immediately terminated the ‘press conference’ )… Cash had just stated that he and the others managing the fire were perfectly ( and FULLY ) aware of the ‘weather forecasts’ and the ‘expected extreme high winds’.
As for ‘unpredictable fire behavior’… what?… are there no FBANS east of the Mississippi… and everyone in that part of the country who calls themselves a ‘Wildland Firefighter’ used to work as a ‘greeter’ at Wal-Mart last week?
Just like Yanrell… if you are NOT ‘fully aware’ of what a ‘Wildland Fire’ can do…. then what are you doing out there on a fireline pulling down an ‘Operations Level’ paycheck?
Sorry… typo. It’s ‘Yarnell’…. not ‘Yanrell’.
Eyewitness accounts confirm that there were 4 helicopters working the fire Sunday. But there were no helicopter drops on the fir Saturday.
The Twin Creeks Science Center is UP the hill from Gatlinburg and the Park Vista. Gatlinburg is in a valley, surrounded by Mountains on three sides. There was so much smoke in Gatlinburg that day visibility was near zero. I can see why no visitors seen or knew what was going on.
Since last night I have learned (from an NPS worker) that at 0818 Monday the fire grew from 50acres to 500 acres. And had jumped the road (HWY441) Another person said the fire was almost at the Chimney Tops Picnic Area early that morning and was being spread by the wind.
At 1026 The fire was reported to be at the Chimney Top picnic area and embers are causing other fires in other areas. Also said that Bullhead had a small fire at that time. Bullhead is an area across HWY 441 that has a trail leading from NEAR the Twin Creeks Science Center up to Mt Le Conte. A hiker coming down Bullhead Trail from Mt Le Conte videoed himself actually coming into burning areas along the trail (he said 2.75miles from le Conte) around noon on Monday. He had to return to Mt Le Conte, called the rangers and was told to exit via Alum Cave Trail.
It seems that Sunday, the fire became increasingly active and continued to spread throughout Sunday night and then spot as the winds hit it early Monday am.
Reply to calvin post on December 5, 2016 at 3:16 am
Good information, calvin. Thank you.
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Eyewitness accounts confirm that there were 4 helicopters
>> working the fire Sunday. But there were no helicopter drops
>> on the fire Saturday.
It will be interesting to learn if Sunday ( November 28, 2016 ) was the FIRST time any ‘Air Support’ at all was used on that FIFTH DAY of the fire ( which actually began on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 ).
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> The Twin Creeks Science Center is UP the hill from Gatlinburg
>> and the Park Vista. Gatlinburg is in a valley, surrounded by
>> Mountains on three sides. There was so much smoke in
>> Gatlinburg that day visibility was near zero. I can see why no
>> visitors seen or knew what was going on.
Copy that. Good point.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Since last night I have learned (from an NPS worker) that at 0818
>> Monday the fire grew from 50acres to 500 acres. And had jumped
>> the road (HWY441) Another person said the fire was almost at
>> the Chimney Tops Picnic Area early that morning and was being
>> spread by the wind.
The ‘Chimney Tops Picnic Area’ is here…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chimneys+Picnic+Area/@35.636167,-83.4881489,3013m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xe757a179b916edff!8m2!3d35.6366902!4d-83.4895222?hl=en
That ‘Chimney Tops Picnic Area’ was only 3/4 of a mile due northwest of the ‘Chimney Tops’ peaks themselves. ( 0.79 mile(s) / 1,399 yards / 4,197 feet ).
The ‘Chimney Tops Picnic Area’ was/is still 3.55 miles ( 6,244 yards, 18,732 feet ) south/southwest of the ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Area’ where that ‘other’ fire was supposedly first reported at 11:30 AM Monday morning.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> At 1026 The fire was reported to be at the Chimney Top picnic
>> area and embers are causing other fires in other areas.
The ‘Chimney Top Picnic Area’ was still 3.55 miles south/southwest of the ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Area’ where fire was ( supposedly ) FIRST reported at 11:30 AM Monday. So if ‘fire’ was only ‘arriving’ at the Chimney Tops picnic area just 60 minutes before this OTHER fire would ‘appear’ 3.55 miles north/northeast of there… then I would say this MUST have been the start of the ‘extreme spotting’ that would continue right up to the disaster on Monday night.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also said that Bullhead had a small fire at that time.
>> Bullhead is an area across HWY 441 that has a trail leading
>> from NEAR the Twin Creeks Science Center up to Mt Le Conte.
‘Bullhead Ridge’ was mentioned in the ‘press release’ sent out by GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ around NOON on Monday…
From that NPS ‘press release’…
———————————————————————
The fire is currently moving northeast, burning primarily along the ground layer through duff and leaf litter. Gusting winds have caused the fire to spot across the ridges in the Chimney Tops and Bullhead Ridge areas.
———————————————————————
NOTICE that even though the fire was now basically ‘spotting all over the place’ that Monday morning… and even higher, more extreme winds were now KNOWN to be coming later Monady… the ‘press release’ from NPS employee/supt. ‘Cassius Cash’ gives no sense of ’emergency’ at all. Like it was all ‘Here’s what’s currently going on… but NO BIG WHOOP”.
That NOON-ish ‘press release’ really should have been ( at the very least ) the official ‘pre-evacuation notice’ for Gatlinburg… if not the ACTUAL do-it-now full evacuation notice.
>> calvin said…
>>
>> A hiker coming down Bullhead Trail from Mt Le Conte videoed
>> himself actually coming into burning areas along the trail (he
>> said 2.75miles from le Conte) around noon on Monday. He had
>> to return to Mt Le Conte, called the rangers and was told to
>> exit via Alum Cave Trail.
So let me see if I am understanding this correctly.
All Monday morning… and on up until NOON and beyond on Monday… the fire was SPOTTING ‘all over the place’ in that part of the ‘Great Smoky Mountains National Park’ and park Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ was still allowing that part of the park to be OPEN to HIKERS?
And even those hikers are now having to call rangers to ask them how to stay alive and get the hell OUT of there?
Seriously?
What kind of what-me-worry dumbshit is this ‘Cassius Cash’ guy?
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> It seems that Sunday, the fire became increasingly active and
>> continued to spread throughout Sunday night and then spot
>> as the winds hit it early Monday am.
Yes… and see above.
According to what you are hearing… the fucking park was STILL open to ‘hikers’ during all this and there weren’t even any pre-evacuation notices being sent for the poor people of Gatlinburg who were ( obviously ) now very much in harm’s way.
Merriam / Webster Dictionary Online
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harm's%20way
Harm’s way: ( Noun ); A dangerous place or situation.
Whoops… brain fart up above.
Sunday was November 27, 2016, not November 28.
Monday was November 28.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
—————————————————————-
It will be interesting to learn if Sunday ( November 27, 2016 ) was the FIRST time any ‘Air Support’ at all was used on that FIFTH DAY of the fire ( which actually began on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 ).
—————————————————————-
Almost certain no water drops prior to 11/27. (from local hikers in area over weekend prior to blow up)
Per Tom Barclay WBIR
The park has created a 410acre management area to contain the fire and has closed off the Chimney Tops and Prong Road trails.
The fire is NOT being fought directly by fire crews because of the inaccessible cliff terrain. Crews are monitoring it, though, and are using natural barriers as much as possible to contain it.
That matches what GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ was saying at the Tuesday morning press conference… just BEFORE Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters literally ‘shoved’ him away from the podium and abruptly ENDED the ‘press conference’.
Cassius SAID that the (quote) “terrain was too steep to get any hand crews up there to build any fireline”.
It really does look like they were just ‘letting it burn’ from Wednesday through Saturday. ( FOUR full days with no significant efforts made to ‘put it out’ ) and only got concerned come Sunday when the winds picked up.
One of the reporters at the Tuesday news conference asked Cassius Cash directly what ‘Level of Management’ was assigned to the fire BEFORE the ‘Type 1 Team’ was finally called in. Was it totally NPS?… or a ‘Tennessee Forestry Division’ Type 2 Team… or what?
Cassius Cash totally ‘dodged’ the question and answered it with just… “As I already said… we had FOUR Helicopters on the fire on Sunday”.
Even the reporter who had asked the question then had this huge WTF look on his face.
I wonder what effect the Thanksgiving holiday had on the initial attack on this fire?
Seems like a fair question, right?
WTKTT said:
“It really does look like they were just ‘letting it burn’ from Wednesday through Saturday. ( FOUR full days with no significant efforts made to ‘put it out’ ) and only got concerned come Sunday when the winds picked up.”
T.O.L.D. Y.A.
It’s the National Park Service, afterall. They do this crap all the time. They let them burn & ‘monitor’ them while looking for ways to meet objectives that may include perceived benefits to wildlife, habitat, fuel reduction, returning the land to a state where ‘man has not tarnished it’ etc. This time it completely bit them in the ass! It actually can happen with other agencies as well. Sometimes managers select the option of ‘limited suppression’ for various reasons. RTS would be a good one to ask to elaborate on this from his many years of changing fire management.
All wildfire is not bad for the land but taking limited suppression tactics is not 100% devoid of risk. Hopefully I’m pointing out the obvious here.
In contrast to Yarnell, which I believe included components of financial gain for some involved in the suppression effort, the GSMNP fire had more of an environmental improvement/ecological benefit attribute.
This is just my opinion but the way I see it but it appears that either:
1. the GSMNP takes top honors in wildfire incompetency by simply not knowing any better (cough…bullshit…cough), OR,
2. the NPS selected the option to attempt to meet other park objectives with the fire(s) already on the ground & by doing so, took an enormous risk which ended up killing civilians and damaging/destroying a huge amount of private & personal property outside the park.
Would you provide a link to the video where the mayor shoved the park superintendent away from the microphone? I’d like to read the body language/facial expressions on that one. Thank you.
Woodsman
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/
Since the opening day it has been a wonderful week on those trails out there—
Opening Day mid week did not produce the numbers but each day the numbers grew from 76 Thursday than hitting the weekend at 91 hikers and today was over 100. Joel Gonzalez and his Female Ranger Partner who is familiar and has worked on state parks has had a solid week so far…There were minor technicalities with Joel who did not work everyday telling hikers 4:30 for shuttle bus run time when it is 3:45pm so it caused temporary friction…All week there has been folks there. Chris and Ed are the bus drivers and a special thank you for their service this week and sure hate to see them go…Now all hikers must comprehend you will not have a babysitter and your car now must follow state laws and you must have the PERMIT TAG in your vehicle visible…
let me copy and paste arizona law because ignorance will not get you anywhere in this state- they wanted to get Sonny for six felonies when he did not want to produce the permit which I kept neatly tucked away with mine because he feels he is grandfathered in—
WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW:
1. A recreation permit is required to camp, hike or travel on Trust Land that is designated as open for recreation
2. A recreation permit is an agreement between you (the responsible casual user) and the Department, to allow limited recreational activities conditional on your continued responsible behavior (see terms and conditions)
Fees:
Individual Permits 1 Year $15.00
Family Permits 1 Year $20.00
Non-Competitive/ Non-Commercial Group Permit * Less than 20 people Less than 5 Days $15.00
after you get this form filled out and monies to them they will mail it back to you with a vehicle allowance permit tag- must be showing if you hike a trail.
you can do it immediately online too but they won’t mail it- you must use your own printer to do it:
https://land.az.gov/individual-family-permit-form#overlay-context=recreational-permit-application-and-online-payment
RECREATIONAL PERMIT TERMS AND CONDITIONS
By clicking “Submit & Agree” below, you agree that:
1. This Permit does not include any implied rights to use any land other than State Trust lands. You are responsible for obtaining any other permits (state, federal, local) necessary.
2. You will comply with all laws, rules, regulations and ordinances. Posting is not required for these provisions to be enforceable.
3. You will obey directives from State Land Department Staff and/or law enforcement officials, including but not limited to all directives attached hereto.
4. The Permittee shall not use State Trust land that is closed by the State Land Commissioner.
5. All travel is restricted to existing roads and trails. A onetime use or single set of tracks does not constitute a road or trail.
6. Recreational motorized vehicles shall not be operated within ¼ mile of any building (occupied or not), paved surfaces (roadways, etc.), or stock tanks (wet or dry), or within any area Closed by the State Land Commissioner.
7. You will leave gates either open or closed as they are found, no fences will be cut or laid down.
8. You will not harass livestock or wildlife nor damage, destroy or remove any livestock or wildlife improvements or facilities (e.g., windmills, stock tanks, fences, corrals, wildlife watering facilities, etc.)
9. You must completely remove all litter and refuse except for geocaches placed according to ASLD guidelines.
10. Human waste shall be confined to a portable toilet or slit trench which will be covered to ground level upon closing camp. Waste from portable toilets shall be removed from site and disposed of properly.
11. Recreational camping is limited to no more than 14 days per year. A campsite must be at least ¼ mile from any livestock or wildlife water catchments, tanks, drinkers, etc. Abandoned campsites are to be left clean.
12. Campfires are to be thoroughly extinguished. You will comply with all fire restrictions and fire closure information issued by the Arizona State Forester.
13. By acceptance of the permit, you agree to indemnify and hold the State harmless from and against all liabilities, obligations, damages, penalties, claims, causes of action, cost, charges and expenses, including attorney’s fees and cost, which may be imposed upon, incurred by, or asserted against the State by reason of any accident, injury or damage to any persons or property occurring on or about the State Trust land or any portion thereof resulting from the use of the permit.
ANY VIOLATION OF THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS VOIDS THE PERMIT UPON OCCURRENCE
Restrictions apply to all State Land Department issued permits and leases (including recreational permits) & holders of
hunting and fishing licenses. For further info regarding fire restrictions, see http://firerestrictions.us/az. For additional
info about the Arizona State Forestry Division and Notice of Fire Restrictions, see http://www.azsf.az.gov.
Thank you for helping us protect the natural resources of the State of Arizona against wild land fires
Now let me review the data I got today…
it is coming to me anonymously from retired in the industry that was here on both fires—
I want to eat first but I spent the afternoon listening to their accounts—
The talk began non-fire related on a new item they got
https://www.blockitpocket.com/index_osc.php
Product Benefits
• Eliminates outside entities from tracking or hacking you!
• No more damaging radiation while carrying your device!
• Provides Protection From EMPs!
• Protects RFID Passports, Credit Cards and Transponders!
• Water Resistant!
How It Works
Cell phones can operate with as little as 1-millionth of a normal signal! A minimum of 80 dB attenuation (blocking) material is required to achieve blocking, as well as a complete (no leak) seal. The Block-it Pocket works by incorporating high attenuating, or blocking materials like pure silver, copper, stainless steel and nickel onto a high quality fabrics. The result in the Block-it Pocket is 100+ dB attenuation. These fabrics are then hand sewn into the the Block-it Pocket, extending beyond the cover to create a complete faraday enclosure. This is how the Block-it Pocket works!
Our entire product line incorporates this technology
to maximize the protection each product is intended to provide. Extensive testing, as well as thousands of satisfied customers have proven that Block-it Pocket products work!
Many people also do not know that virtually all new devices can be accessed remotely, even with the device powered off and the battery removed! It’s true! Just read this article (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130723/12395923907/) we found recently to illustrate the remote, illegal accessing of wireless devices.
now the next topic…
set the room up even though anonymous—present was 3 females and 3 males at this meeting. all saw both fires and one was very involved in activities of first-
this is how it went after the Block-it Pocket topic…they said I should get the data of the entities insurance/bond and ask for it in a FOIA but I still left confused why it matters why I would care…we than talked about the report having Grantham as the lead arson on Tenderfoot and HOW WRONG that is…”outright lie”…they spoke and got business cards of many people on that last fire…A federal marshal was with BLM investigator Adam Hurt and the US Dept of the Interior Bureau of Land Management Phnx District Office Jeremy Joosse Law Enforcement badge #249 21605 N 7th Avenue Phoenix Arizona 85027…and I took pic of all the official business cards…
THEY SIDE NOTE and talked about this past Thursday there was a BOOM explosion noise in Glen Ilah area where a retired firefighter listen to scanner and reported to this man that the helicopter was there before the fire truck stationed at the ranch house…than one told me they can help me reach a judge in the USA that can help get a common law grand jury for the data I got and want to share…They also spoke about the following:
*Woody and his c1-30 plane and his solid history of slurry drops and how he was refused along with Maughan.
*One man interviewed Woody first hand.
*Two men stated to me Politics plays a serious role in both fires.
*Back to explosion witnessed by many including 4 of these folks and it was not gun shots…one man added his military background of being an instructor in the air force and it was not aerial but a small device “pressed charge” base ground level not aerial- brown smoke and it was BOOM…all pinpointed BOOM to than brown smoke…little before 3pm that first day of Tenderfoot fire.
*A local wanted to be a volunteer EMT firefighter and signed up for Chief Ben Palms EMT training course; $1600.you have to be kidding me…I already have a foia in for the chief’s background and credentials as my first placed in commercial request months ago and the gathering of FOIAs that he fails to keep ignoring will be a part of my case against YFD come January 10 2016. ANYWAYS the person who signed up walked into his class and did not feel the QUALITY of him being an instructor warranted the $1600 so they CANCELLED payment of the check they gave him that first day of class. If that first day was a SAMPLE of the what was to come…then no reason trying…even Jeff Shearer flunked emt HOW MANY times but took over Kristee Lewis captain spot…WTF???? but what to expect this Jeff is not even certified last I knew even as FF 1 and 2…so anyways they got back on TOPIC of the EXPLOSION and the one who took the training class was suppose to show up for the 2nd day and Jeff Shearer and another man drove FIre truck to that person calling it a WELLNESS CHECK asking if they had any kids present there and just in a tone wanted to know “what’s up” MEANWHILE the radios going off redundantly AWAITING Jeff who was just a volunteer EMT…asking for their RESPONSE as the 2 kept engaging with this missing emt classroom person ignoring the radio alerts…BOOM the person who took the class one day heard the BOOM and STILL the 2 men were trying to get data out of why the person is skipping out…IGNORING THE RADIOS and the BOOM….keep in mind as you read this Sonny that the advanced flight medic where we stayed as our hiking headquarters after Oak Park; Phil Snyder…he was once singled out when he was tied to YFD and Phil Snyder sued and won and still wanted to be on dept…THERE IS A LONG DEEP ROOT TO THE FIRE BOARD SONNY—it begins to make sense Sonny…the cowboy Richard Mayer met online the fire board member and lost his home Kevin ODonnell and had him move to Arizona from NY and live with fire board member Arlon Rice and Stan K. before ending up getting his own place that burned in the YHF and Claude Mattox who has property in Yarnell but lives elsewhere is on the water board…we cannot have dictatorship happening just because they LIVED here a long time…the board is for the BEST FOR THE COMMUNITY- or it is suppose to be ????
* this ambulance they purchased requires certification and one looked into it saying it could be appx $10,000 so how do they get that funds if YHRG granted them $60,000 just to meet a deficit….something is way up…and that Errol guy Sonny they think he has a bad attitude..I have never met anyone who felt that way ever…and if that is FACTS than why would YFD a week before he left throw a $200 at the cost of YFD throw him a congrats party…
DYSFUNCTION IN THE HIGHEST ORDER-
how does October 28th you pass an emt exam FINALLY Jeff make you a candidate for captain and where was the legal posting of it???
https://www.facebook.com/Yarnell-Fire-District-162769493906206/
here ya go Sonny..
http://yarnellfire.org/YFD-dnlds/20161119_Agenda.pdf
Battalion Chief Position was just done at last meeting…
how does a very TINY VOLUNTEER fire dept get one of these positions with their current deficit?
any firefighters help me understand.
I googled it and got:
A battalion chief is the lowest chief officer in a fire department’s rank structure, above rank-and-file fire station and fire company officers. A battalion chief commands a firefighting battalion, similar to a military battalion. A battalion consists of several fire stations and multiple fire companies. A battalion chief has command over each fire station’s officers and each company or unit’s officers, as well as the uniformed firefighters.
Probationary firefighter
Firefighter
Driver engineer
Lieutenant
Captain
Battalion chief
Assistant chief
Fire chief
Sonny- you know Richard Mayer
he is the one in cowboy hat:
http://yarnellfire.org/2016-christmas-dinner-awards-party/
what is a CAL FIRE Church? and its locations?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 4, 2016 at 6:19 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Now all hikers must comprehend you will not have a babysitter and
>> your car now must follow state laws and you must have the
>> PERMIT TAG in your vehicle visible…
>>
>> ( Information about obtaining Arizona State Trust Land ‘hiking’ permits )
I think you are misunderstanding what ‘right-of-way’ means.
One of the REASONS that Arizona State Parks had to ‘lease’ that 15-foot-wide ‘right-of-way’ for the ‘hiking trail’ from Arizona State Trust Land Department is so that people attending the park would NOT have to obtain Arizona State Trust Land ‘hiking permits’ just to ( legally ) walk up from the parking lot to the boundary of the new ‘State Park’ itself.
So while it is TRUE that ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’ still OWNS the actual ‘land’ that this ‘hiking trail’ is on… that doesn’t mean you still need a valid ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ hiking permit just to be walking inside that 15-foot-wide ‘right-of-way’ corridor.
As long as anyone stays on the ‘hiking trail’ that is now serving as the ‘entrance’ to this ‘State Park’… and doesn’t go a little more than a body length off either edge of the trail ( and stays within that 15-foot-wide right-of-way )… then you do NOT need a valid ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ hiking permit.
The ‘lease’ for that ‘right-of-way’ that Arizona Parks purchased back on February 15, 2016 for $2,400 is Arizona State Land Department File / Transaction number 16-118208.
https://land.az.gov/auction-results
—————————————————————-
Auction Date: FEB-15-2016 – 11:00 AM TUES
File Number: 16-118208
Type of Sale: Perpetual Right Of Way Easement
Location: T10N, R5W, Sec. 16
County: Yavapai
Acres: 2.13
Minimum Bid: $21,400.00
Winning Bid: $2,400.00
Successful Bidder: AZ State Parks
Number of bids: (1 bid/s)
—————————————————————–
oh neat-
good to know
But the ‘converse’ is still TRUE as well.
If anyone DOES have a valid ‘Arizona State Trust Lands’ hiking permit… then even if ‘Arizona Parks’ is trying to say that the park is ‘closed’ at any particular time… all you have to do is stay one body length off to the SIDE of the center of that hiking trail ( 7. and 1/2 feet )… and ‘Arizona State Parks’ doesn’t have any ‘jurisdiction’ at all.
The Chimney Tops 2 fire is reported to have been near the Twin Creeks Science Center at 1130 on 11/28.
This is approximately 4 miles from the Chimney Tops (original fire area) and less than 1.5 miles from the Park Vista Hotel.
Yet people were checking into the hotel (and others ?) late in the day that afternoon.
I would like to see a diagram showing the fire perimeter Monday morning. How far did the fire spot? How far had the fire advanced on the Town of Gatlinburg after the NWS issued high winds warnings Sunday night?
Reply to calvin post on December 4, 2016 at 5:20 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> The Chimney Tops 2 fire is reported to have been near the
>> Twin Creeks Science Center at 1130 on 11/28.
Yes… and ‘Cassius Cash’ ( the Superintendent for the entire GSMNP ) issued a ‘press release’ to the local media about this ‘new fire’ that very Monday morning, November 28, 2016 ( the morning of the day of the fatal ‘blow up’ ).
At right around the same time this ‘press release’ was issued… ANOTHER weather report was released by the National Weather Service predicting EXTREMELY HIGH WINDS in advance of a ‘front’ that would hit the Gatlinburg area later that day ( Monday ).
And in a press conference following the tragedy… Cassius Cash said that he ( and others ) were ‘very much aware’ of those HIGH WIND predictions.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> This is approximately 4 miles from the Chimney Tops (original fire area) and
>> less than 1.5 miles from the Park Vista Hotel.
Yes on both counts.
The ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resources ( Science ) Center’ was just 1.32 miles southwest of the ‘Park Vista Hotel there on the outskirts of Gatlinburg… and the ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource ( Science ) Center’ was 4.17 miles north/northwest of the ‘Chimney Tops’ peaks.
There was a CLEAR VIEW ( straight down a valley ) from the west end of Gatlinburg ( and from the Park Vista Hotel ) all the way down ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ to this ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource ( Science ) Center’, and the ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ that led from Gatlinburg down to this facility was a two-lane well-maintained PAVED ROAD.
>> calvin…
>>
>> Yet people were checking into the hotel (and others ?) late in the day that afternoon.
Yes. ( Even though there was also a CLEAR VIEW down to the ‘Twin Creeks’ compound from that ‘Park Vista’ hotel itself. Whatever was going on down there all day Monday… it could be SEEN from the hotel ).
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> I would like to see a diagram showing the fire perimeter Monday morning.
>> How far did the fire spot? How far had the fire advanced on the Town of
>> Gatlinburg after the NWS issued high winds warnings Sunday night?
I haven’t seen any such ‘map’… but even if one exists… I don’t believe it will look like a ‘regular’ fire-perimeter map. It appears this event was a classic ‘spotting event’ even shortly after the original fire started at 5:20 PM on Wednesday, November 23, 2016.
Even the fire that ‘broke out’ Monday morning ( or even the day before? ) there at that ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource ( Science ) Center’ in the park itself is ‘attributed’ to ‘spotting’ from the original ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire, 4.17 miles to the south.
So stop for a moment and think about what THAT means.
‘Fire Officials’ were saying they KNEW ( even before any EXTREME HIGH WINDS had hit the area ) that the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire had already ‘spotted’ up to 4.17 miles to the NORTH and started a ‘new’ fire at the ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource ( Science ) Center’.
But THAT ‘Twin Creeks’ facility is now only 1.32 miles away from the south end of Gatlinburg.
That’s just 1/4 of the distance they KNEW the fire had ALREADY ‘spotted’… even WITHOUT any ‘EXTREME’ high winds hitting it.
So the time to evacuate Gatlinburg was MONDAY MORNING… the moment this other fire broke out just 1.32 miles from the town.
Here is the National Park Services official ‘explanation’ of what happened last Monday.
They say it was all due to ‘unpredicted weather events’ and ‘unpredictable fire behavior’…
The National Park Service
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/news/fire-update-11-29-4am.htm
—————————————————————————-
Gatlinburg Area Fire Update
Date: November 29, 2016
Contact: Public Affairs Office, 865-436-1207
November 29, 2016, 4:00 a.m.
Sevier County, City of Gatlinburg, and Great Smoky Mountains National Park officials have reported widespread fire damage and continued fire activity throughout the Gatlinburg area and much of Sevier County including Wears Valley, Pigeon Forge, and Jones Cove. Gatlinburg City officials have reported numerous structures completely lost to fire including businesses in the downtown area and private homes throughout the area.
Unpredicted, extreme weather conditions on Sunday afternoon through Monday led to the exponential spread of fires both inside and outside of the National Park. Severe wind gusts of over 80 mph, unprecedented low relative humidity, and extended drought conditions caused the fire burning in the National Park to spread rapidly and unpredictably, in spite of suppression efforts on Sunday that included helicopter water drops. Wind gusts carried burning embers long distances causing new spot fires to ignite across the north-central area of the park and into Gatlinburg. In addition, high winds caused numerous trees to fall throughout the evening on Monday bringing down power lines across the area that ignited additional new fires that spread rapidly due to sustained winds of over 40 mph.
Conditions remain extremely dangerous with trees expected to continue to fall. Officials are asking that motorists stay off the roadways throughout the area. Travel in the Gatlinburg area is limited to emergency traffic only. The National Park is closed at the Gatlinburg entrance.
—————————————————————————-
“Unpredicted, extreme weather conditions on Sunday afternoon through Monday led to the exponential spread of fires both inside and outside of the National Park.”
Unpredicted winds? ( Horseshit )
Unpredictable fire behavior? ( Horseshit ).
Here is what National Park Service ( NPS ) employee and GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ said in the first official news conference held on Tuesday morning, after the fatal ‘blow-up’…
—————————————————————————————-
Reporter: My question is about the FORECAST. The question is… WHO was the person saying ‘be careful… be on ALERT… the WINDS may CHANGE and this could send send this into a tinder-box’?
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: So there WAS a HIGH WIND ADVISORY… uh… that came in… uh… and we were VERY much AWARE of that… which is why we poured in those FOUR SHIPS ( Helicopters ) to try and knock it down as much as possible, if not put it out. So we… we weren’t ‘blind’ to the HIGH WIND ADVISORIES.
—————————————————————————————-
Moments after GMNSP Superintendent Cassius Cash made that statement… the mayor of Sevier County ( Larry Waters ) actually physically ‘pushed’ Cassius Cash away from the podium, took the microphone, and abruptly ENDED the ‘press conference’.
Yes… that ‘grinding’ sound you hear is, in fact, “the circling of the wagons” ( again ).
https://www.facebook.com/grant.reed.3114/posts/10211794135353071
sad news.
I have also been in communication with reporter Kimberly Davis-
Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:47 PM
The fires in Gatlinburg started on Monday. I heard there were “voluntary” evacuations at one point, but no required evacuations. It all happened so fast, quicker than anyone could get the word out. Winds reached up to 87mph and rapidly spread the fire in East Tennessee. With in 15min the fire started to burn up everything in Gatlinburg. The blaze got spread over in TN from NC.
We have been covering the Gatlinburg fires extensively, we have all of our stories on newschannel5.com for more information.
Thanks for watching,
Kimberly Davis
c: (615) 336-5390
so sad.
http://www.newschannel5.com/
http://www.newschannel5.com/entertainment/dolly-parton-plans-telethon-for-wildfire-victims
https://www.facebook.com/gatlinburgfire2016/
Joy.
I was hiking in the GSMNP Monday 11/21 on the Alum Cave trail. The Chimney Tops trail is very nearby, and I have a couple great photos of the Chimney Tops from that hike.
At approximately 1700-1720 11/23 (just two days later) a fire was reported near the top of the Chimney Top Area. It appears that there were two independent smoke columns from photos I copied from Facebook starting 11/25. At this point this fire is considered to be man caused.
Over the weekend the pics on Facebook show increasing smoke and active flame at night. But the image from Sunday night shows fire all over the mountain. I am currently trying to identify where that photo was taken from. I knew Monday morning (when I saw that picture) that the fire had changed.
After work that night I collapsed and was awoken by my wife (around 9pm) showing me a video of the Park Vista Hotel in Gatlinburg) with 15-20 ft(?) flames just outside the window with people inside.
Beginning Tuesday morning I began following closely. I have been vacationing in Gatlinburg all of my life on a annual basis
All of the events around this fire are in Tennessee, not NC. The fire did not begin in NC.
I am beyond sad for the scarring of MY beautiful mountains, but overwhelmed by the loss of human life.
Interestingly. As I watched the fire grow through facebook posts, I never considered what could happen. And I was lulled by the images.
Calvin…so you are aware of 2 points of fire. …I am deeply digging in with behind the scenes folks to see if there is any more origin points…also I will see the law enforcement report and see what it says…Calvin did you know BLM/YCSO has it in their reports a local rancher is their lead alleged arsonist that I had to turn my noncommercial foia into a commercial just so I could tell the quality man John Sherrick Grantham that they reported him to have alleged start them on Tenderfoot fire and that he told a blm firefighter to let it burn and noone knows but I know the people that Sherrick was in Buckeye Arizona with his grandson not even near the fire…and could not have said that to anyone…I will email you the email I have for you back in 2013/2014 to show you…so say media read it they would report it and it is not even true…I too love the Smokey mountains…I had a sad loss there and never went back but love love the people and scenery and hikes…
From pictures 11/25- 11/28 I can almost assure you there were two separate areas of ignition with separate smoke columns.
Does anyone know if that is why it is named the Chimney tops 2 fire? As in, 2 fires?
Reply to calvin post on December 4, 2016 at 2:11 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> From pictures 11/25- 11/28 I can almost assure you there
>> were two separate areas of ignition with separate
>> smoke columns.
>>
>> Does anyone know if that is why it is named the
>> Chimney tops 2 fire? As in, 2 fires?
Yes. There were TWO fires.
The ORIGINAL one started at 5:20 PM on Wednesday afternoon, November 23, 2016… on the ‘Chimney Tops’ hiking trail.
The SECOND fire started some 8 miles northeast of there… near the Twin Creeks Picnic Pavilion off Cherokee Orchard Road just south of Gatlinburg.
‘Cassius Cash’, the Superintendent of the GSMNP, did not issue a press release admitting to the SECOND fire until the MORNING of Monday, November 28, 2016 ( the morning of the night of the big blowup ).
But according to the photos YOU have seen… that SECOND fire seems to have been burning out there ( perhaps ) as early as November 25, THREE days before ‘Cassius Cash’ even admitted to it being ‘out there’.
When the ‘big blowup’ came on Monday night… November 28… starting around 6:00 PM… the ( predicted ) EXTREME winds blew embers from BOTH fires NORTH into Gatlinburg and the surrounding area(s).
The ONLY ‘firefighting’ efforts that GMNSP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ has ever admitted to was simply using 4 helicopters on Sunday, November 27, 2016… the day BEFORE the ‘big blowup’.
He has not admitted to, or described, ANY ‘firefighting efforts’ at all in the FOUR DAYS prior to that… from when the fire started on Wednesday, November 23 to when he says he used the 4 helicopters on Sunday, November 27.
He said in a press conference after the disaster that there was (quote) “not way to get hand crews around the Chimney Fire”… but Cassius Cash never mentions the SECOND fire at all.
See the BOLDFACE paragraphs in the article below…
The Knoxville News-Sentinel (Knoxville, Tenn.)
Article: How the Historic Gatlinburg Fires Happened; a Humble Start
Published: December 1, 2016 – By: Steve Ahillen,
http://www.emergencymgmt.com/disaster/How-the-historic-Gatlinburg-fires-happened-a-humble-start.html
From that article…
————————————————————————-
(TNS) – The Sevier County wildfire that has claimed the lives of at least seven people and destroyed more than 700 homes and businesses had a simple enough beginning.
According to a news release dated Nov. 25 from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park Public Affairs Office, the fires started on Chimney Tops Trail a few miles south of Gatlinburg, off U.S. 441, at approximately 5:20 p.m. on Nov. 23.
It was listed as approximately 3 acres burning at the summit on the trail. It was judged as slow-moving and suspected of having been started by human hand, either accidentally or by an arsonist.
A release on Monday morning said the fire fed by 20 mph winds had grown to 500 acres. Park officials closed Newfound Gap Road, Cherokee Orchard Road and Elkmont Road.
Also that day Great Smoky Mountains National Park officials issued an air quality advisory.
“The air quality today is unhealthy for the Sevier County section of the park and adjacent areas, especially in the Gatlinburg area due to heavy smoke from the nearby Chimney 2 Fire,” the report stated.
Later Monday morning ( Monday, November 28, 2016 ), a park release reported a small fire 150 yards behind the Twin Creeks Picnic Pavilion off Cherokee Orchard Road just south of Gatlinburg.
It was not known at the time if the two fires were related but it was later determined burning ash from the Chimney Top fire had likely blown to Twin Creeks, about a eight-mile stretch. This was greatly aided by the exceedingly dry conditions occurring during a months long drought in East Tennessee.
Then came Monday night and evening that will forever be etched in the 100-year history of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park and the tourist towns of Sevier County.
Forest service officials were hoping two inches of rain predicted for the evening would extinguish blazes. The rain prediction was accompanied by a note that possible preceding high winds could be a cause for concern.
The winds did indeed come, some clocked above 80 mph, hurricane force. They picked up flaming embers from BOTH fires and sent them racing some for miles north across Gatlinburg and toward Pigeon Forge. The fires themselves also spread. Trees fell over power lines, sparking blazes where the cables landed.
At a Tuesday press conference, Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller said 20 residential fires were reported at nearly the same time at different parts of town.
The expected rain came too little, too late. And I fire that had started at as 3 acres on a mountain in the park was well on its way to covering 15,737 acres.
By then Gatlinburg was being evacuated. A thick cloud of smoke covered most of Sevier County, tourist attractions like Dollywood and Ripley’s Aquarium of the Smokies, with its 10,000-plus animals inside, were threatened.
Fires begun in valleys were spreading quickly up hillsides to vacation homes along the Ski Mountain Road on the northwest side of Gatlinburg up the mountain where the Ober Gatlinburg ski resort resides.
Fortunately, none of those three signature tourist destinations was damaged.
Plans were made to evacuate Mount LeConte Lodge, a historic inn on top of that mountain southeast of Gatlinburg and a little east of the Chimney Tops Trail.
The fire was basically spreading in all directions north. Gatlinburg Mayor Mike Werner said at a Tuesday press conference that in a 10-mile stretch around the city 50 percent of the buildings were damaged. Almost miraculously, the city’s main Parkway was relatively unharmed.
The fire reached the edge of Pigeon Forge 16 miles from Chimney Tops and west to the Chalet Village up Ski Mountain Road.
The wind died down Tuesday. The rains came as did firefighters from throughout Tennessee as well as some from the crews that had already been brought in from elsewhere in the country to battle many fires in East Tennessee for more than a month.
Eight fires still burned Wednesday, including a new one in the Wiley Oakley area northwest of downtown.
Miller said Tuesday that he believed the worst was over, and it couldn’t have been much worse.
“In my 25 years of federal park service, I’ve participated in many fires, but none of that could have prepared me for this,” Great Smoky Mountains National Park Superintendent Cassius Cash said.
————————————————————————-
I mean that there were two separate fires started on the Chimney Tops hiking trail (or maybe not exactly on them, near the top of the mountain) 11/23.
The fire at Twin Creeks Science center was first reported around 1130 Monday, 11/28. And it does not appear to be 8 miles from the original fire on top of “the Chimneys”
Best I can figure is around 4 miles. WTK, can you confirm this via google earth. Wildfire today first posted the image showing the spot back on 11/28, or 11/29.
As noted below. The Science Center s only 1.3 miles from the Park Vista Hotel. Visitors were continuing to check in late Monday pm. And were later trapped in the hotel because it was too dangerous to evacuate.
Reply to calvin post on December 4, 2016 at 3:58 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> I mean that there were two separate fires started
>> on the Chimney Tops hiking trail (or maybe not
>> exactly on them, near the top of the mountain) 11/23.
That may also be true. I can find nothing that ‘officially’ states that ( so far ), but if you have photos that would be ‘proof’.
Do you have some ‘links’ to these ‘Facebook’ photos you are referencing?
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> The fire at Twin Creeks Science center was first reported
>> around 1130 Monday, 11/28. And it does not appear to be
>> 8 miles from the original fire on top of “the Chimneys”
>>
>> Best I can figure is around 4 miles.
That’s VERY close. It’s actually 4.17 mile(s).
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> WTK, can you confirm this via google earth.
Done. See below.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> The Science Center is only 1.3 miles from the
>> Park Vista Hotel. Visitors were continuing to
>> check in late Monday pm. And were later
>> trapped in the hotel because it was too
>> dangerous to evacuate.
That’s exactly correct. I get 1.32 miles with ‘Google Earth’.
As far as the ‘Twin Creeks Science Center’ that you are referring to goes, that is, in fact, the same place that is called the ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource Center’, and it is ALSO the same place where this ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Area’ is that was referenced in the GSMNF press release on Monday morning about the SECOND fire, closer to Gatlinburg.
They are all in the same place there on ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ in the GSMNP park itself. There is a ‘turnoff’ road there off ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ now named the ‘Twin Creeks Research Lav Access Road’, and there are THREE different things there in that same general spot…
1. The Twin Creeks Natural Resource ( Science ) Center.
2. The Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion and Comfort Station.
3. Something called the ‘Discover Life in America’ compound.
Click the following Google Maps link for a ‘closeup’ aerial view of this ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource Center’…
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6875412,-83.499659,753m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
The ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Pavillion’ is just 230 yards WEST of that ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource Center’ building.
BOTH of these ‘Twin Creeks’ facilities are 1.32 miles due southeast of the ‘outskirts’ of Gatlinburg
NOTE: Distance was measured from center of the ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource Center’ building to the center of the ‘Park Vista’ hotel, which is pretty much the first structure you come to after driving northwest on Cherokee Orchard Road from the ‘Resource Center’ towards Gatlinburg itself.
The ‘peaks’ of the ‘Chimney Tops’ feature are here…
35.629533, -83.477834
The ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource Center’ is 4.17 miles north/northwest of the peaks of the ‘Chimney Tops’ feature.
I clipped the pics I have off of Facebook from a hiking group I follow. A quick search of pictures related to the Chimney Tops 2 fire will give you some idea of how the fire looked early on. And you can possibly make out the separate columns.
Also, that map at Wildfire Today that shows the spot fire and the Chimney tops area is interesting because it shows 3 yellow marks at the original fire area. This could represent 3 separate fires right there on the peak at Chimney Tops
Thanks for measuring those distances precisely.
Something other things to NOTE about this ‘Twin Creeks Natural Resource Center’ there in the park just 1.32 miles southeast of the outskirts of Gatlinburg.
It IS the same place where ‘fire’ was being reported circa 11:30 AM on MONDAY MORNING… November 28, 2016.
And Google Earth shows that this ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ that leads from the outskirts of Gatlinburg down to this ‘Twin Creeks’ compound travels right down a VALLEY.
Google Earth shows that there is/was a CLEAR VIEW down that valley all the way from anywhere on the southwest side of Gatlinburg down to this ‘Twin Creeks compound’.
In other words… if there was a FIRE ( and smoke ) there at that ‘Twin Creeks’ compound as early as Monday morning… then it would have been CLEARLY VISIBILE ( down that unobstructed valley ) to anyone on that southwest side of Gatlinburg.
And ESPECIALLY ‘visible’ from any floor of that ‘Park View’ Hotel above the first floor level.
Also ( and perhaps even more important )… this ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ that led from the outskirts of Gatlinburg straight down to this ‘Twin Creeks’ compound was a lovely ( and well maintained ) PAVED ROAD.
Ditto for when it ‘turns’ into the ‘Twin Creeks’ compound itself. It remains PAVED all the way to the actual ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Area’ where the GSMNP press release said there was a ‘fire’ that MONDAY morning.
You don’t need Google Earth to see this.
The entire length of the paved part of this ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ has been ‘StreetViewed’ by the Google cameras… and you can just ‘take a drive’ yourself all the way along ‘Cherokee Orchard Road’ and right into ( and up to ) this ‘Twin Creeks Picnic Area’ itself.
So there was absolutely no problem with getting enignes and/or hand crews and/or bulldozers right TO this ‘fire’ being reported on MONDAY MORNING.
But there is no evidence that ANY action was taken on this fire near that ‘Twin Creeks’ compound at all… even though the EXTREME WIND advisory was repeated at NOON on Monday.
There is no doubt this ‘fire’ there near this ‘Twin Creeks’ compound was certainly ONE of the ‘fires’ that EXPLODED circa 6:00 PM Monday when the predicted high winds hit it… and it ‘showered’ embers and ‘spotted’ all the way to the Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge ( Dollywood ) areas.
I hope others out there in cyber space just watched the special on CNN about the self help motivational speaker James Ray and the three sweat lodge deaths that occurred in Sedona, Arizona, in 2009. Sedona is in Yavapai County and that case was investigated by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office and prosecuted by the Yavapai County District Attorney in Prescott.
If you didn’t just watch the program and you are not familiar with that case, a group of educated and more or less successful people, or at least people who had $10,000 to pay to Mr. Ray for a 3 day self help seminar that included a sweat lodge session.
It was advertised that the heat would be more intense than any they had ever experienced before and they were tightly packed into a sweat lodge at the end of their other play days. Mr. Ray then dumped a five gallon bucket of cold water on hot rocks in the middle of the lodge which sent up clouds of searing hot steam into their lungs on top of the already very hot temperature in their make shift sweat lodge.
This same therapy session had been conducted several times before without serious incident. But this last time, a number of people went into serious distress displaying all of the symptoms of heat stroke they had been told they would experience. Due to random circumstances, they probably had the lodge hotter that time than any other time. None of these people were supposed to be hydrating during this session so their stomachs would be empty.
These were the same symptoms they had been told by Mr. Ray that would signal they are approaching an elevated state of consciousness that would enable them to be re-born as better and more successful people, kind of like a lecture from Tony Robbins or Deepak Chopra on steroids.
By the end of the session, a number of people were in severe distress and some attendees were trying to get them out of the sweat lodge because they were starting to do the funky chicken like WF on the Tonto near the end of a day shift in July directly in front of a wildfire. Been there…almost did that and have seen some do that, which is severe convulsions on the ground with their eyes rolled back up into their heads while making gurgling sounds with repeated dry retching and heaving after vomiting up the contents of their stomachs.
But…they all wanted to stay to reach their nirvana so they could be reborn and Mr. Ray was encouraging them to stay to reach their goal because that is what they were paying him to do. He was after all…a self help guru who they were paying to do exactly what he did for them, and to them.
At the end of the session, three healthy middle aged people, two women and one man couldn’t be revived and died from heat stroke by basically getting their core temperature so hot they melted their brains. There were 19 other people who were in serious trouble but they ultimately survived.
The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office and District Attorney concluded that Mr. Ray should be charged with 3 counts of manslaughter (murder 2) and 3 counts of negligent homicide as a back up per Arizona State Law because he did negligent things that he either knew, or should have known could result in the death of someone else.
In the end the jury, found Mr. Ray not guilty of manslaughter but they found him guilty of the 3 counts of negligent homicide. For those convictions, he was facing about 10 years in prison for each count. In the end, the judge only sentenced Mr. Ray to two years in prison which made the families and loved ones of those who died very unhappy.
But the judge told them during his sentencing hearing…and I am paraphrasing here, that their loved ones were stupid fucks for doing something so fucking stupid as to kill themselves in that way. But he also told Mr. Ray that even though it was clear he was trying his best to help these people, he was so good at convincing people to do…and once again I am paraphrasing here, something so fucking stupid that resulted in them killing themselves, he shared in the responsibility for those deaths.
In between the time of the incident and his sentencing (2 years), Mr. Ray lost everything including his multimillion dollar house in Beverly Hills, California and his business because he couldn’t work during this time. At the end of the special TV program, Mr. Ray told us that that was the first time in history (of our country I guess?) that anyone had been convicted of negligent homicide for the deaths of consenting adults who had engaged in a lawful activity of their own free will.
So…obviously my question is…what is the difference between Mr. Ray actions and the actions of Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and whoever ordered the crew to come down off that mountain? Is it public opinion, public perception, public collective guilt, or was it because Mr. Ray was portrayed as a charlatan and not a hero firefighter? What…I don’t understand? Please help me to understand.
Well we did know about the sweat lodge guy. The difference in that guy and Marsh is that Marsh killed more people with his obedience to command and doing something even more stupid than Mr. Ray. Ray did use the same tactics that Marsh used and did with his authoritative manner cajole people into staying when they were in danger. Like Marsh’s knowledge of the dangers of dropping off in a box canyon choke full of dehydrated manzanita with the fire apt to change, Ray with his medical knowledge would have known that he was placing certain compromised people in danger by pushing them to the brink.
In either case there was negligent homicide but Marsh would have gotten 19 counts insead of 3 counts of negligent homicide. That likely would have been mitigated to some degree if he had not paid the ultimate price along with those he killed. He would have fingered those that wanted him to go do structure protection when it was an extreme danger to his men and of no effect against such an extreme wild fire.
But those are my thoughts, and that fire chief that was lighting fires around Prescott because he thought the areas needed burning got off with only probation. I think if he had not been a fire chief I suspect that a citizen arsonist would have done prison time and been fined a million or so to boot for restitution. Seems the hero worship is attached to the fire fighter no matter how badly he preformed and how unnecessarily he kills his men. So maybe the hero thing is what separated Marsh from Ray. But I think more likely it was reputation saving time for those that shared the cause of those needless wild land fire fighter deaths.
Well the judge would not say the 17 young men that strictly followed orders were stupid fucks stupid enough to kill themselves in that way just because Marsh and Steed ordered them to. So Marsh and Steed get a reprieve there, I am certain.
It is too bad people buy into the bullshitters that show such authority yet know so little about keeping the people they bullshit alive. We simple folks need instruction on how to resist these bullshit types. They profess to know but are ignorant as hell, maybe stupid in some instances as well. But maybe the plates that say you can not fix stupid are a fact.
who are the black mesa hotshots and their connection to the YHF???
all I saw online was this:
“Catron joined the Black Mesa crew, out of Heber Overaard, Ariz., late last year and had worked with the Granite Mountain Hotshots most recently on the Doci fire just preceding the Yarnell Hill fire. They had just got back from another fire when the Yarnell Hill fire blew up on June 30 and overtook the Granite Mountain crew.
“When we heard of the tragedy that occurred we were at our base,” Catron said. “We had just got back from a small fire on reservation land close by. We got back the day before the tragedy. On June 30 we were at our base doing the usual stuff for the day, physical training and general maintenance.””———————————
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but when I was reviewing data I have one old man say he talked to a crew guy from Black Mesa that 6.30.13 so I looked it up and found zip—just an article making sure they said where they were at their base camp…
There is no evidence in the public record that the ‘Black Mesa Hotshots’ were ever either ‘ordered for’ or ‘present at’ the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013.
Resource Orders show only THREE ‘Hotshot Crews’ were ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
1. The Blue Ridge Hotshots.
2. The Granite Mountain Hotshots.
3. The Arroyo Hotshots.
The Arroyo Hotshots never made it to Yarnell because one of their ‘chase’ vehicles ended up having mechanical problems the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013. That has never actually been PROVEN… but that’s what the Dispatch Logs give as the reason why the ‘Arroyo Hotshots’ were a ‘No Show’ in Yarnell that Sunday.
I think the Black Mesa Hotshots are a BLM crew out of Nevada and I think it is were USFS Director of Fire and Aviation Shawna Legarza got her start if I remember her book right? And WTKTT is right. I don’t think they were anywhere near or had anything to do with the YHF.
maybe one of them was delayed because they were on the Doce fire with GMHS—I will go tomorrow and ask the old man again—he wrote it down and that is what he wrote…I know Glendale and Sun City was in area and others yet not assigned…just there so just maybe one crew guy was on Doce and headed back different time…too premature and too tired to much think today on it but I will shelf it and do the homework…
Shawna Lagarza started with Black Mountain Hotshots, a USFS crew out of Carson City NV. Not Black Mesa
Is this another prescribed burn. Here the firefighters prescribed the lightening strike to take the blame.
**
** TENESSEE DOES HAVE ‘SOVERIGN IMMUNITY’ LAWS
As evidence of ‘negligence’ continues to emerge surrounding the ‘Chimney Tops’ fire and the resulting destruction in/around Gatlinburg… the following is ‘relevant’.
Unlike the State of Arizona… the State of Tennessee IS one of those states in the Union that HAS ‘codified’ its own Federal-style ‘soverign immunity’ laws.
However… the Tennessee ‘soverign immunity’ laws specifically say these protections for state, county and municipal employees and agencies CAN be ‘suspended’ ( so lawsuits can be filed ) if there is sufficient evidence of (quote) “willful, wanton, or gross negligence”
So ‘negligence’ ( and the severity of it ) is always ‘the key’ when it comes to filing suit against any Tennessee employee or agency.
http://www.tennesseedefenselitigation.com/BlogEntry.aspx?id=161
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Under Tennessee law, governmental entities are provided with sovereign immunity under many circumstances. Specifically, T.C.A. § 29-20-201(a) is one of the statutes (there are others) that addresses sovereign immunity and provides as follows:
(a) Except as may be otherwise provided in this chapter, all governmental entities shall be immune from suit for any injury which may result from the activities of such governmental entities wherein such governmental entities are engaged in the exercise and discharge of any of their functions, governmental or proprietary.
(b)(1) The general assembly finds and declares that the services of governmental entity boards, commissions, authorities and other governing agencies are critical to the efficient conduct and management of the public affairs of the citizens of this state. Complete and absolute immunity is required for the free exercise and discharge of the duties of such boards, commissions, authorities and other governing agencies. Members of boards, commissions, authorities, and other governing agencies must be permitted to operate without concern for the possibility of litigation arising from the faithful discharge of their duties.
(2) All members of boards, commissions, agencies, authorities, and other governing bodies of any governmental entity, created by public or private act, whether compensated or not, shall be immune from suit arising from the conduct of the affairs of such board, commission, agency, authority, or other governing body. Such immunity from suit shall be removed when such conduct amounts to willful, wanton, or gross negligence.
In 2014, the Tennessee Legislature adopted Public Chapter No. 574 which amended Tennessee law to add T.C.A. § 29-20-208 as follows:
Immunity from suit of any governmental entity, or any agency, authority, board, branch, commission, division, entity, subdivision, or department of state government, or any autonomous state agency, authority, board, commission, council, department, office, or institution of higher education, is removed for the purpose of claims against and relief from a governmental entity under the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act of 1994 (“USERRA”), 38 U.S.C. §§ 4301-4334.
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Just a few minutes ago… another new ‘update’ on the botched evacuation was
published by the Knoxville News Sentinel.
They are now publishing a ‘timeline’ of who did ( or did NOT ) do what, when.
The latest “that’s our ( new ) story and we’re stickin’ with it” blurb from the ‘officials’ involved is that they are now blaming any ‘miscommunications’ on the LOSS of ‘communications’ capability as power outages began hitting Gatlinburg because of all the ‘spot fires’ that were popping up.
“Loss of communications capability”… yea… THAT’S the TICKET!” ( Saturday Night Live ).
The Knoxville News Sentinel
Article Title: Sevier officials admit fire evacuation alert not issued
Published: 10:19 p.m. EST December 3, 2016 – By Don Jacobs
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/tennessee/2016/12/03/sevier-officials-defend-handling-wildfire-evacuation/94886552/
From the article…
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GATLINBURG — Sevier County officials admit they never issued a mobile evacuation alert ahead of the wildfire that swept through town and killed 13 people Monday, but blame “communication failure” due to weather disruption.
“Communications between the agencies was interrupted due to disabled phone, internet and electrical services,” according to a joint release issued Saturday by the county mayor, the city of Gatlinburg, the National Park Service and the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency. “Due to this communication failure, the emergency notification was not delivered as planned.”
Officials didn’t explain why no one attempted an alternative means of communication such as radio or why the city at first downplayed the threat of the fire — or whether TEMA even would have issued such an alert if reached.
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In other words…
“We’re sorry we couldn’t send the proper evacuation notices out because the thing that we were trying to tell people to evacuate from had already hit the town and was causing problems and we were already too late in even beginning to TRY and warn anyone about it.”
Yea… that’s the ticket.
The article above also CONFIRMS that not only was the ‘weather’ predicted the day BEFORE the ‘blowup’ there in Sevier County… the National Weather Service also issued another WARNING about “strong, gusty winds” in that area just before NOON on Monday ( the day of the blowup ).
Those “strong, gusty winds” arrived in the area ( as predicted ) at 6:00 PM on Monday evening.
That’s more than SIX HOURS after the National Weather Service warning just before NOON earlier in the day.
Also in the new article above… there is finally a NAME of who it was that finally decided they ( the officials in Gatlinburg ) better start sending same evacuation notices.
It was Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller.
But there is still no specific mention of WHEN this ‘brain trust’ finally decided to do that… or if they took action on it right away.
From the article…
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John Mathews, director of the Sevier County Emergency Management Agency, said Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller requested the evacuation order after the chief conferred with his colleagues.
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WTKTT said in part, ,”The 11th fatality was an 80 year old woman. The last contact with her came when she called her son and told him her house was ALREADY ‘on fire’. The phone ( yes, it was a land-line… not a ‘dumbphone’ ) went dead WHILE she was asking HIM what she should do.
And it wasn’t some fucking ‘cabin in the woods’. She lived in a nice house on the EDGE of a ‘development’”
Inexcusable.”
And I said in response,
Gary Olson says
DECEMBER 2, 2016 AT 9:47 PM
That is a horrible story and proof in my mind that those who have covered up or lied about the true lessons learned from the Yarnell Hill Fire have blood on their hands and I am confident there is more to come.
Everyone needs to re-calibrate their O SHIT O’Meters because the world in which wildfires exist is changing before our very eyes and those who are responsible for getting that word out…need to get the their FUCKING HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES.
I know they will say they are doing what they need to be doing but obviously; they need to do it more, better and faster.
It’s looking like almost half of the deaths took place in / around a development just east of Gatlinburg called ‘River Chalet’. ( About the size of Glen Ilah ).
That’s where the elderly woman described above. died.
That’s where the 12th and 13th victims ( the couple ) were found dead by the side of the road and their 3 sons survived but were all badly burned.
Others also died there… and many who survived have ‘stories’ that sound identical to what people in Yarnell and Glen Ilah reported. They received NO WARNINGS whatsoever. They just happened to look out their windows and saw the fire ALREADY ARRIVING in their community.
There was only one way out of that ‘development’… and the ‘couple’ died
as they were trying to make it out but a tree had already fallen and blocked
the road. So they ( and their sons ) exited the vehicle and tried to make it
to safety on foot.
There is no evidence that ANYONE in this ‘River Chalet’ development got ANY
kind of ‘notice’ about the danger they were in until AFTER the fire had already
reached that ‘development’ ( and the only access road ).
USA Today
Tennessee wildfire deaths climb to 13 as officials fend off criticism
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/12/02/gatlinburg-wildfire-deaths/94811536/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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GATLINBURG, Tenn. — The death toll climbed to 13 Friday as local, state and federal officials fended off criticism of their handling of a massive wildfire that stormed through this resort town and surrounding Sevier County communities earlier this week.
Critics have raised questions on what local authorities knew about the real danger of the fire and when officials alerted residents and visitors to flee as the it raced toward town. Although an emergency management system sent out an alert, the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency said that alert never went to all local mobile devices because of constraints of the system.
“We’re not going to get into Monday-morning quarterbacking,” Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters said as he cut short a news conference. “We did the best we could with what we had, and we’re sorry.”
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“We did the best we could with what we had, and we’re sorry.”
Probably not as sorry as he’s GOING to be.
And yes… if the FULL STORY from Yarnell had been ‘told’… and there had been an ‘industry wide’ wake-up call for all agencies, everywhere, to REVIEW their ‘wildfire evacuation’ policies and procedures… and then made sure whatever they DID have planned was actually going to WORK if/when the time came… perhaps ALL of these DEATHS in Tennessee could have been avoided.
So… because of the massive ‘similarities’ to Yarnell… it CAN be said that anyone who has ( and is still ) preventing the full TRUTH of THAT ‘National Historic Tragedy’ from coming to light does, indeed, have ‘blood on their hands’ now.
And even now… the ‘wagons are circling’ and the ‘obfuscation’ is going to happen again.
Here is ANOTHER ‘National Historic Tragedy’ where they are STILL counting bodies ( still 70 people unaccounted for. SEVENTY )… and ‘officials’ are, once again, ‘circling the wagons’, and fully prepared to prevent the full TRUTH from being told.
SIDENOTE: Gary… what can you tell us about the ‘National Park Service Investigation Bureau’, which other articles say is now ‘investigating’ the cause of the fire ( along with the ATF )? Is there really such a ‘NPSI’ unit?… or is it just regular Park Rangers who took some law enforcement courses and they ‘pretend’ to be ‘investigators’ if/when needed?
Son of a gun… there is ( at least ) a ‘website’ for ‘National Park Service’ ( NPS ) ‘Investigative Services’…
https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/index.htm
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The investigative arm of the National Park Service
The Special Agents of the Investigative Services Branch (ISB) of the National Park Service are geographically distributed across the National Park System.
Our core mission is the immediate and long-term protection of park resources, visitors, assets, employees and residents. We accomplish this through detection, investigation, apprehension, and successful prosecution of persons who violate laws of the United States of America while within, or while affecting, the National Park System.
We are part of the Associate Director’s office for Visitor and Resource Protection.
Our home is in the Washington Support Office (WASO) Division of Law Enforcement, Security, and Emergency Services.
Our enabling legislation (commonly known as the Organic Act) primarily resides in a set of laws in the US Code specific to the National Park Service (NPS).
Contact us – we are available 24 hours a day, every day of the year.
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So it sounds like they have ‘guns’ and ‘badges’ and all that stuff.
Gary… ever work with any of these guys/gals?
Do they know what they are doing?
Yes, I worked extensively with many of them for my entire career as a special agent. And yes, most of them are as good as anybody else including the BLM, USFS and USFWS and some are better. Most NPS LEO’S are Howdy Doody park rangers who went to FLETC simply to enhance their careers to move up through the park ranger ranks and should never be issued guns, but most NPS special agents are not of that breed.
Some NPS Special Agents are hired from the outside from the more recognizable federal law enforcement agencies, but most come up through the park ranger ranks which make them better investigators than former FBI, DEA, ATF&E, Secret Service, La Migra etc special agents. Side note, the BLM hired almost exclusively former DEA special agents for most of my career because once those who are from another agency get in the door, they have a tendency to hire their old buddies from their former agency and one begats another…another…another.
The best thing I can say about NPS special agents that is once they reach that fork in the road and commit to the 1811 job series, it kills their career to ever move up, or re-enter the ranks of Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum park rangers, which is where all of their top managers come from like Park Chief Rangers and Park Superintendents and on up through the regional office to the NPS Washington Office.
This is because just like in the BLM and USFS, NPS Special Agents conduct internal investigations and are generally feared and distrusted by all other employees including those in middle and upper management. And so like the BLM and USFS, they have “straight line” authority to, and actually all work for the NPS WO. That way local and even regional managers can’t interfere with criminal investigations because those managers are not in the special agents chain of command.
If you had the average NPS, BLM and USFS Special Agents together you would not be able to tell who is who, they would all look the same to YOU PEOPLE. The biggest bunch of dumb asses I ever worked with came from the FBI, but that might because they didn’t send their best and brightest to work with me.
There is ONE really big reason that NPS Special Agents will do a better job than any of their counterparts on this investigation. And that is because unlike the BLM, USFS, and USFWS they have proprietary authority in many parks and so they routinely do competent and thorough death investigations because you would be surprised how many violent and suspicious deaths occur in National Parks and in the backcountry on other federal land.
On other federal land, death investigations are the primary responsibility of the local sheriff’s office, which once again traces back to our founding fathers fear and distrust of a national police force. But for some reasons I have never been clear about, Congress made many parks proprietary and not concurrent or exclusive jurisdictions like other federal land (BLM, USFS, USFWS etc.) is. BLM and USFS land for example, have concurrent jurisdiction, which means county and state law enforcement also have authority on that land. But on those parks that have proprietary jurisdiction, only the NPS has the authority on that land except for MOU’s and other cooperating agreements with partner agencies, but the NPS always has the lead. Side Note, I think I am remembering all of this more or less right.
The other thing that gives me confidence that the NPS Special Agents who are involved in this case will do a good job, is because like I said, NPS special agents don’t work for glorified Smile and Wave park rangers at the local or even regional level. And even if they did, I would still expect an honest investigation because if a park visitor, or a whole bus load of park visitors die or are killed in a National Park, NPS management wants to know if it was a preventable tragic accident, or negligence on someone else’s part…or even a murder, which seems to frequently happen. Federal land managers are just not geared for the most part to be like the State of Arizona and particularly Yavapai County officials.
Now of course USFS management was different with the YHF, but that is complicated and nuanced because unlike law enforcement…FIRE managers are subservient sluts (non gender specific). It’s complicated, but the USFS is the worst of those who I have discussed here because they had a long history of local managers interring with criminal investigations.
It got so bad a bunch of USFS special agents turned into Whistleblowers and testified in Congressional hearings that led to actual federal laws mandating straight line authority for their agents. The biggest issue at the time was with local USFS officials condoning the outright theft through under reporting while taking hundreds of millions of dollars worth of timber by the timber industry.
Although the BLM was not far behind for much of my career, because for most of it, BLM Special Agents actually worked for their respective State Directors and not the Washington Office. After Congress bitch (non gender specific) slapped the bitch out of USFS management, BLM management got on board and “stove piped” AKA “straight lined” their special agents as well so Congress didn’t come after them. And by doing so, BLM managers managed to keep their uniformed officers working for local managers which can lead to problems, but even USFS uniformed officers work are stove piped directly to their Washington Office.
The very first BLM Director I ever worked for was appointed by President Reagan. His name was Bob Burford and he was the Director of the National Cattleman’s Association when he was appointed to be the national BLM director. He was famous for falling asleep during briefings. The BLM (especially during Republican administrations) also have a long history of hiring former top executives from the industries that the BLM is supposed to regulate such as the timber, coal, mining and oil and gas industry giants…especially former top oil and gas executives, much like PEOTUS Trump is doing RIGHT NOW! Katy bar the fuckin’ door because they ARE going to give away the candy store while robbing US PEOPLE blind.
IF most of the NPS Special Agents I worked with over about 22 years in federal law enforcement would have been assigned to investigate the Yarnell Hill Fire, their final report would read like many of my posts on this blog…minus the personal opinions (rants) and hyperbole. Their final report would state that the actions of Eric Marsh and Jesses Steed were the primary reason why their crew died and you would know most if not all of the contributing and causal factors as well.
NPS Special Agents, unlike the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office would not give a FLYIN’FUCK what State Senator Karen “The Queen of Quid Pro Quo” Fann thinks, says or does and in general…federal politicians stay the fuck out of criminal investigations because interfering is a federal felony…or a bunch of federal felonies.
And just like I did, whoever is on the investigation will not only have a wildfire background, they will have been to the FLETC Wildfire Investigation Course and will have done other arson investigations. That fact and the fact that the BATF&E (who I always found to be very good and professional to work with) are involved will mean that if these cases can be solved, they will be and in any case, the truth will be told. I know this for a fact because over the past three years I have consulted with a number of other special agents I worked with over the years including former senior NPS special agents and none of my views (more or less) on the key issues are out of line with their general consensus.
Thank you.
Whoops. I think the correct term is “exclusive jurisdiction” instead of “proprietary jurisdiction.”
Reminds me of the crusty old police captain at the very beginning of the movie. “Matrix” talking to those special agents. “Don’t give me any of your jurisDICTion BULLSHIT!”
Where would I be without quotable quotes from movies? I wouldn’t be able to communicate effectively at all.
So.;..the bottom line? I have every expectation to believe that the NPS and BATF&E Special Agents who are involved with the investigation in question will do the right thing.
FYI…that is the exact scenario I have been ranting about for the last three (3) years that didn’t, but should have happened on the YHF. And my Congressional anecdote above is WHY there is a federal law that says if USFS WF are killed on a fire, there has to be USDA OIG Special Agents doing the investigation. Office of the Inspector General Special Agents are not even in the food chain of the agencies they are responsible to monitor and investigate.
There were NEVER ANY USFS Special Agents involved in the YHF SAIT or their SAIR because I have every reason to believe that if they would have been…the SAIR would read like my posts minus my theatrical bullshit. Just those FIRE whore, bitch, sluts (all non-gender specific) like Mike “Do Wrong” Dudley.
Double whoops. I should have added this caveat to my glowing assessment.
The outcome will depend on precisely what NPS and BATF&E Special Agents were given the authority to investigate. There could be multiple investigations going on right now, we just don’t have enough information.
For example, the special agents might just be investigating the origins of the fires to try and catch the arsonists and NOT investigating why people were burned alive in a wildfire without being given reasonable opportunity to evacuate.
It is possible that the FIRE whore, bitch, sluts (all non-gender specific) are in control of their FIRE response, actions and decisions. And IF they are, you should.prepare yourself for another cover-up.
Side Note, The Great Smokey Mountains National Park very well may be an “exclusive jurisdiction” park. I did go through basic FLETC police training with a park ranger from there and his entire job was just to patrol the highway that runs through the Great Smoky Mountains performing the exact same function as any state highway patrol officer. And the way I remember him talking about it, the state highway patrol did not even go into the park.
Should have read.
“It is possible that the FIRE whore, bitch, sluts (all non-gender specific) are in control of INVESTIGATING their FIRE response, actions and decisions. And IF they are, you should.prepare yourself for another cover-up.”
And as we all know…it NEVER works every well when anybody investigates themselves. They always have the tendency to say, “Well…we took a hard look at what happened and found out that we didn’t do anything wrong, or even anything we could have done better. So…you can all move along because there is nothing to see here.”
A lot of this doesn’t really matter and I know it goes way beyond your original question, but I do like to fill in details when I am bored.
So..I think the big highway I was trying to think of my old buddy patrolled that goes through the Great Smokey Mountains is called, “The Blue Ridge Parkway.” I saw that same guy many years later on TV leading the UnaBomber Ted Kaczynski into federal court because he had become a Deputy U.S. Marshall.
And while I am both talking up and talking down NPS law enforcement I can tell you they are the Big Dogs in my old world just like the USFS are the Big Dogs in FIRE.
For example, (I think) they are authorized about 2000 uniformed law enforcement officers, whereas the BLM, which as I have said manages far more land than all other federal land management agencies combined only has about 200 authorized LEO’s nationwide.
Both the BLM and NPS had about 50 special agents including Assistant Special Agents in Charge and Special Agents in Charge plus the WO special agent staffs, or at least it was that way when I retired..
NPS law enforcement officers and special agents can also get a lot more varied experience than their counterparts because they do everything from enforcement action in downtown Philadelphia, New York City and Washington D.C. to the nation’s Crown Jewels like Yosemite, the Grand Canyon, the Redwoods, Sequoia – Kings Canyon in addition to Jellystone National Park. And since many of those parks have exclusive jurisdiction, they can get into some real shit.
So the bottom line is…many of them are REALLY good. Just like almost all BLM special agents in my day came from the DEA, almost all BLM Rangers come from the NPS because they are good and really happy to get away from the NPS because as an agency…they are wound up WAY to tight for my liking. They all wear their park ranger hats at least two sizes too small for their heads, which cuts down on the blood supply to their brains.
And not only that, as an agency, most of them are really anal retentive because they were potty trained by their mothers holding Sig Sauer .40 caliber handguns pointed at their heads. I would not have lasted long with the NPS. Compared to them, the BLM are, or at least were, a bunch of rough riding gunslingers right out of the old west. Which was just my style. Yippie-Kai-Yay Mother ******!
Reply to Gary Olson post on
December 3, 2016 at 5:09 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> A lot of this doesn’t really matter and I know
>> it goes way beyond your original question,
>> but I do like to fill in details when I am bored.
It DOES matter… and thanks again for taking the time for the long response.
I was actually ‘hoping’ you would give that exact sort of ‘primer’ on the various ‘agencies’ and the similarities and differences… because it IS ‘relevant’.
I’m not sure I fully understand the BATF involvement, however.
How ‘usual’ is that?… to have agents from the “Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Fireams” co-investigating the cause of a fire on a National State Park?
And with regards to ‘talent’… it’s good to hear that the NPS Special Agents aren’t just ‘Park Rangers who took some LE classes’….
…but ( as you already said ) it still comes down to what they have been INSTRUCTED to do.
Are they ONLY going to figure out if this fire was started by arson, or a campfire, or ‘target practice’ weapon discharge ( or whatever )… or do they have instructions to ‘investigate’ how the fire was actually HANDLED… and what the Initial Attack ( or lack thereof ) actually looked like?
Right now… the media and the press are all involved in this botched evacuation thing… but there is going to come a “slowly I turned” moment when everyone asks the question “Wait a minute… this fire was going on for DAYS before it ‘jumped’ off that NPS land. What were THEY doing ( or NOT doing ) for those days leading UP to this tragedy?”
But for the moment… the ‘focus’ is exactly where the National Park Service wants it to be… on anything but THEM.
Followup…
I said ( above )…
“Are they ONLY going to figure out if this fire was started by arson, or a campfire, or ‘target practice’ weapon discharge ( or whatever )… or do they have instructions to ‘investigate’ how the fire was actually HANDLED… and what the Initial Attack ( or lack thereof ) actually looked like?”
I certainly don’t expect YOU to know the answer to that. I was just throwing that question out there as one of the ‘obvious’ ones that is now laying on the table.
Well…BATF&E has the lead for the federal government in arson fires in general. For example, whenever you hear about a church burning (or bombing) as a hate crime, ATF will have the lead and if you pay attention to the next time something like that happens, you will see people with navy blue windbreakers that with the letters “ATF” on the back of them walking around the burned out church.
They would also be involved if explosive or incendiary devices were used to start the fires or if there is just the suspicion explosive devices could be involved in the fires in the Smokey Mountains.
A lot of PEOTUS Trump supporters…you know, white supremacists and white nationals who are in militia groups or are simply lone wolves waiting and hoping for the opportunity to use their stockpiled M-4’s and AK-47’s against our government like to build pipe bombs and go out and test them on federal lands.
That is something Timothy McVeigh and his accomplice did on BLM land up around Kingman, Arizona but theirs weren’t pipe bombs, they were testing out their fertilizer bomb. I think if Timothy McVeigh had not been sent to hell…he would have certainly voted for Trump.
YOU PEOPLE who voted for Trump really screwed the pooch and I am going to have so much fun telling all of you, “I TOLD YOU SO!” IF I survive that fuckin’ clueless buffoons time in office until he gets impeached.
I mean..C’mon people. You didn’t “LIKE” Hillary? Fuck me silly and call me Sally. Nobody was asking you to FUCK her, you just had to vote for her because she is COMPETENT.
I know…I know…you heard something about Whitewater, and Vince Foster committed suicide and you are positive she must have done something wrong in her role Benghazi even though more than a dozen Congressional investigations that cost us tens of millions of dollars which were led by Republicans couldn’t find anything to blame her for other than vague suspicion she MUST have done something?
And yes…I know she bleached the server she shouldn’t have had in her closet and she voted for the war of choice in Iraq, and yes, all of that and a bunch of other things prove she is manipulative and will do anything to win…so what is wrong with having a President like that to go up against that rat faced bastard Putin who Trump wants to 69.
So far…Trump hasn’t talked to any leader in any police state like Duterte, who is the current President of the Philippines, Áder, President of Hungary, Sharif who is the Prime Minister of Pakistan and now Ing-wen who is the President of Taiwan, you know…the country the U.S. doesn’t diplomatically recognize even exists (and has made China who has our balls in their vice because we owe them so much money FURIOUS) who he butt dialed by accident that he hasn’t fallen in love with and wants to have their babies.
Gee…I don’t know? How about we DON’T pick the circus clown, who never even went to flight school, precisely because he doesn’t know how to fly the fuckin’ supersonic jet airliner all of us are riding in when there is a very highly qualified pilot who has been fully checked out on the exact make and model of our jet…just because we don’t LIKE her.
And I even forgot where a lot of NPS rangers really earn their spurs. There are several big parks that sit directly on our border with Mexico in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.
During the three years I was BLM ASAC Arizona for the second time, a very, very, very, good park ranger and an outstanding young man named KRISTOPHER
WILLIAM EGGLE was ambushed and killed while tracking drug smugglers with an AK-47 in the Organ National Monument. During that same period of time two BLM rangers shot and killed drug smugglers and one BLM ranger was shot by one of the drug smugglers before he killed him.
As a courtesy, NPS rangers in Organ Pipe walked me through the desert and the described the scenario of how Kris had been killed.
http://www.kriseggle.org/kris.htm
It was a very hard thing for me to do, and even harder for the young ranger who had been there with Kris that day and tried to help him as he died. But as I have said before on this thread, law enforcement generally tries to learn lessons from their bad experiences so they don’t keep doing the same thing….over and over again.
Correction; “Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument”
I should have specified that those incidents involving BLM rangers were two separate incidents. Both times the BLM Ranger were alone in the middle of night in the middle of nowhere.
I got involved in some shit in both Arizona and New Mexico on the border…but never when I didn’t have a bunch of guys with a bunch of guns with me.
Gary hit it on the nail. It is a good idea if you are an investigator to have your friends investigate in case you are accused of wrong doing. You will owe the friends one but that seems to be how it worked on the Yarnell incident. Especially when you saw people that worked on the fire getting awards, etc. Even look at the Tenderfoot fire-=another boondoggle and another award session. They never saved the town of Yarnell and they know it but then if the media wants to ballyhoo them then I say it only shows the ignorance of the media. I sometimes think being a firefighter is a good fat job for glory seekers yet I know that the general bunch are not and do want the truth out. At least those on this site are that way..
That comment needs modification. Bruce and Bret of Adosh gave bad marks to the Yarnell fire fighting effort. I wonder if their jobs are still intact but they will go down in history as a couple investigators that wrote it as it was and caused maximum fines for the poor management.
But you do not hear much in the media for their efforts. Instead you get the hero worship version of how the men walked into an inferno supposedly to protect the BS ranch that did not burn anyhow. What would their puny Pulaski”s do against the Yarnell fire laying down heat that was melting lead and aluminum and would have lit up the handles on those Pulaski;s like so many torches. Unbelievable at the wealth of facts that were covered up to maintain the status quo. But IM has rocked the boat – at least enough to make some of them sea sick.
Here are the locations of the ‘cell towers’ that service the Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge area(s)…
http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=Gatlinburg&state_abr=tn
If you ‘zoom down’ on Gatlinburg itself, you will see that there are really only 3 cell towers covering that town.
The ‘River Chalet’ community ( where almost half of the deaths-known-about so-far took place ) was to the EAST of Gatlinburg… out Highway 321 and past the ‘Pitman Center’. The only cell tower that was really ‘servicing ‘ that ‘River Chalet’ community is there ‘between’ this ‘Pitman Center’ and the ‘River Chalet’ community itself. It is off by itself on top of a mountain in a HEAVILY wooded area at the end of ‘Hickey Road’.
According to reports of how the fire was spreading… that area between the ‘Pitman Center’ and the ‘River Chalet’ community ( where the cell tower was located ) could easily have been ‘toast’ even BEFORE there was any attempt to send out a cellphone / text based evacuation notice.
If you are ‘depending’ on ‘celluar based’ notifications to outlying communities… it really helps if you send out the ‘notifications’ BEFORE the cell tower(s) that service those areas get burned up. ( Duh ).
Chalet village or river chalet?
You are right… “Chalet Village” is the CORRECT name.
I’ve seen it referred to in some articles as “River Chalet Community”… but if you Google “Chalet Village” that is obviously the more ‘correct’ name for this community that got ‘devastated’.
There actually is a ‘golf course’ there.
I wonder if some people had to ‘survive’ there, since falling trees started blocking all the exit roads?
This community should have been among the first to be evacuated. It is among the closest to the GSMNP and closest to the original fire area.
Yep. The SOUTH side of 2-lane Highway 321 is GSMNP land… and the NORTH side of the Highway is the residential ‘Chalet Village’ community.
As soon as there was ANY chance that fire might be heading towards Highway 321… they should have been getting those poor people OUT of harm’s way.
The ‘focus’ now is becoming… ( of course )… WHO knew WHAT… and WHEN.
No one in ‘officialdom’ is even trying to deny they didn’t know about the forecasted weather and the unusually high winds.
So it’s all about TIMING now.
Just like Gary Cordes didn’t adjust HIS ‘thinking’ or his ‘trigger points’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire even AFTER hearing about the approaching bad weather and high winds… is that what happened here, too?
Somewhere on this NPS ‘Initial Attack’ team… there was another ‘Gary Cordes’?
Followup…
“As soon as there was ANY chance that fire might be heading towards Highway 321… they should have been getting those poor people OUT of harm’s way.”
…because this ‘Highway 321’ that runs EAST / WEST was the ONLY valid ‘exit route’ for a LOT of people.
And if the fire was approaching this EAST / WEST road from the SOUTH… that means the entire length of it was probably going to become compromised ‘all at once’… ( which is pretty much exactly what DID happen )… so there was NO TIME TO LOSE making sure everyone living just on the NORTH side of that Highway had time to EXIT the area.
**
** NO MOBILE ALERTS WERE SENT AT ALL ( IN TENNESSEE )…
Well… scratch the post above about whether the ‘cell tower’ that serviced the ‘Chalet Village’ area burning up had anything to do with people without land-lines getting any kind of automated ‘evacuation notice’.
The local media in that part of Tennessee is now ‘waking up’ and doing some actual ‘investigative reporting’.
Yesterday morning… the director of the Sevier County Management Agency ( SCMA ) told reporters that he believed an ‘alert’ HAD been sent to ‘Mobile Devices’… but a reporter for the Knoxville News Sentinel has now confirmed that was ( of course ) BULLSHIT.
No ‘mobile alerts’ were sent AT ALL. Zero. Zip. Nada.
The Knoxville News Sentinel
Article Title: Gatlinburg fire evacuation alert not sent to mobile
Published: ( Late last night ) 10:25 p.m. EST December 2, 2016
By: Hayes Hickman
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/tennessee/2016/12/02/gatlinburg-evacuation-order-never-sent-mobile-devices-broadcast-hours-after-fire-reached-city/94745606/
From the top of that article…
———————————————————————————
Local, state and federal officials confirmed that the order to evacuate Gatlinburg amid Monday night’s deadly firestorm was NOT sent to mobile devices in the area.
The reason for the failure, however, remains unclear.
John Mathews, director of the Sevier County Emergency Management Agency, said at a news conference Friday morning it was his understanding that an evacuation alert had been sent to mobile devices.
“If people did not receive the message we sent out, of course we are unsatisfied with it,” Mathews said in response to pointed questions.
The citywide evacuation was broadcast ONLY on area TV and radio. And when it came — at 9:04 p.m. according to Tennessee Emergency Management Agency records – it was several hours AFTER the flames had swept into Gatlinburg.
———————————————————————————
Identical to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Officials first said all the ‘automatic notifications’ took place… and then reporters did their jobs and discovered that was, of course, total BULLSHIT…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire: System failed to alert hundreds to evacuate
Published: 12:58 a.m. MST May 11, 2014
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/investigations/2014/05/11/yarnell-hill-fire-system-failed-evacuation/8963719/
———————————————————————————-
Emergency evacuation calls during the Yarnell Hill Fire were delayed 21 minutes as dispatchers struggled to overcome technological problems, new records obtained by The Arizona Republic and 12 News show.
Even then, only 79 calls went through, meaning hundreds of households in Yarnell and Peeples Valley were never notified, the records show. The new information contradicts previous claims by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office that its automated alert system, CodeRED, worked as it was supposed to.
———————————————————————————-
I wonder if we will now also discover that, just like Yarnell, the local fire chief(s) might have gotten rid of the established CERT ( Civilian Emergency Response Teams ) because… as was the case with Yarnell Fire Chief Jim Koile… it was ‘too much like work’ to keep the CERT program(s) active.
Gary says a couple things that are relevant to Yarnell–the near death experiences here were several we already know about due to not warning–even the closest to the fire had no warning–Ali who barely escaped, but not to mention many of the others–Joy can list names and people that were stuck in smoke and fire with their houses and yards burning before they even realized there was a fire nearby.
The other thing is how few of the city fire fighters could pass the arduous wild land fire fighter category. That would be true since you see several obese examples and others that would never make the grade. However on the new team here the majority seem fit.
The shame is the killing of the very fit 19 young men at Yarnell. It starts with what Gary mentioned –faster and quicker. Had the Yarnell, Peoples Valley, and Congress fire departments acted quickly after the initial strike, those 19 would indeed be alive and the town of Yarnell and Glen Isla would be intact. There would be no 7 million dollar bill to tax payers for services rendered, settlements for deceased wild land fire fighters, more millions in funds for memorials, setting aside parks, costs in lives due to poisonous retardant drops next to Yarnell in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and the over hundred elderly and not so elderly deaths at Yarnell-Glen Isla since the fire.
Seven or eight million in tax dollars spent here at Yarnell is likely a low number and I would estimate the cost to be closer to ten million–the value of lives is infinite–a number 19 that only history can record as Arizona’s thus far greatest wild land wild fire fatality. More to come, since there has been no change, no admission of faulty operations, and only awards handed out for those that worked the Yarnell fire.
But the common citizen is generally not aware of the problems–the high cost of mismanaged wild land fires and the low pay given to those such as the 19 deceased wild land fire fighters of Prescott GMHS crew.
Undoubtedly, with wild land fire fighters and local fire departments that diligently do their work, these fires need not blossom into full fledged wild fires, and with good managers, if they do become wild fires, then men will absolutely not be sent into situations where they are of absolutely no effective help to save structures and the simple safety rules of wild land fire fighting will be utmost in the minds of their squad leaders and supervisors. Men of the ilk of Marsh, risk takers who would risk the lives of their crews just to take on a wild fire laying down 50-100 foot flames and producing the energy of an A-bomb every 15 minutes will be immediately dismissed–especially after the evaluation that their peers give rating them as tragedy in the making. The screening of such individuals will be strict–not a crony brown nose proposition to get to where you are in charge of so many young lives, yet you have not the knowledge or understanding how to keep your crew alive.
Strong words, but these are what is needed from those who live, work, and care about the young wild land fire fighter and the devastating effects of a lightening strike allowed to go wild.
4 more deceased.
Now would be a good time for a new chapter. Maybe?
Reply to calvin post on December 3, 2016 at 1:51 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> 4 more deceased.
And upwards of 70 ( SEVENTY ) people still ‘unaccounted for’.
Officials now say it will take ‘forensic investigators’ at the sites of some of the destroyed homes / businesses to even determine if there are, in fact, any ‘human remains’ there.
It’s already ‘making history’… but this could get really, really BAD in terms of ‘body counts’.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Now would be a good time for a new chapter. Maybe?
I agree. This page already won’t completely load in some mobile browsers.
Appears the 4 I thought were additional dead may just be 4 were identified.
13 dead at this point? Not sure how many, if any are missing. Near 1400 structures? Conflicting info.
Joy asked, “GARY… Do you, really, believe “the fire escaped and slopped over” the two-track… that 6×WFF and l×Helitack could NOT hold a ” creeping fire” from crossing over an approximately 8’wide-cleared-trail for an “active creeper length” of, perhaps, 125′?”
And I say, Are you implying they intentionally let the fire get away? If you are, I don’t believe that.
Here is why I think the fire was not put out when it should have been.
1. Arizona State Forestry (ASF) pinches pennies and cuts corners fighting wildfires they are responsible for, especially during the initial attack phase as Standard Operating Procedure (SOP)..
2, ASF didn’t want anyone else to go fight the fire because they don’t want someone else doing their job for them even though their SOP’s don’t allow them to do it either. This is because (as PEOTUS say’s) the visuals would look bad for them to admit they either can’t or won’t fulfill their responsibility to fight WF on state trust land.
3. There are some very good reasons I always refer to helitack…as helislack. As a group they are even more elitist than smokejumpers, if that is even possible. Most of them are former WF and many of them are former hotshots, but they think that once they work with helicopters full time they are too good to get down in the dirt and get after it. You would need at least a baker’s dozen of helislacks to equal the work capacity of one lazy hotshot.
4. Con crews are notoriously poorly trained, poorly equipped, poorly led and poorly motivated. They are substandard WF crews and should NEVER,,,EVER….be used for initial attack or critical assignments on any wildfire. Con crews shine when they perform non-technical tasks on fires where the things I mentioned above are not critical to getting the job done. An example of where they can be successfully used is for mopping up a fire or working on the sectors that have gone cold..
I am out of the WF loop regarding many current practices in the WF community and although I worked on a lot of fires with con crews in many states in my day, I had never heard of a state using con crews for initial attack before the YHF.
The fact that ASF utilized a con crew for initial attack is the best example I can point to of how they pinched pennies and cut corners on the YHF, which was certainly a major contributing factor in the disaster which eventually unfolded.
Hi Gary,
I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about the differences in fire management in the intermountain west vs the southeast rain forest?
Just reading about the gatlinburg Fire and thinking how similar circumstances were for Yarnell residents. As someone posted earlier on this blog ‘it was a miracle that there were no civilian deaths’ .
Death toll in Tennessee has climbed to 13 and structures damaged is now more than 1000.
The following article is one of the first to describe how fucked up the evacuation notices were ( and why )… and yes… the similarities to Yarnell are tragically similar…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/12/02/gatlinburg-emergency-alerts/94795298/
real quick…way short on time and behind…
the bleachers alerted me on your comment
I dont know if there is a reply to you from the bleachers…but I will try and post when i can under BLEACHERS so they get separate id so I am not tied to them as a reply—
I have not heard from Sonny and he was due here awhile ago…
hope he is ok
he did do a good part of that hike…
No, I don’t. My experience in the southeast is limited to office work filling resource orders which is pretty much the same process everywhere and working directly on the line as a hotshot.
I can tell you from a hotshot’s perspective the fuels (type, loading, continuity, arrangement etc.) are way different, the mountains are not as tall, the terrain is not as steep or as rugged and you don’t have to hump it in as far because there are roads almost everywhere….so I liked fighting fire back there, but I don’t think that is what you are looking for?
Are you talking about “let burn” and prescribed fire policies? Or are you more interested in fire fighting strategies and tactics such as the wide spread use of bulldozers and other mechanized equipment, ICS integrated command similarities,, wildland urban interface issues or timber harvesting policies which creates space but also creates problems with slash.
I think almost everything is going to depend a lot more on the managing agency than the region per se. I also know that what is call “State and Private Forestry” are bigger players back there compared to the USFS and BLM because there isn’t very much National Forest back there to speak of and virtually no BLM land. And from my perspective, most of the southeast is basically a flat tree farm because Weyerhaeuser and Georgia Pacific etc., own vast tracts of private land down there, far more than the USFS so their policies dictate what happens in those SE states.
The BLM manages subsurface minerals like coal.,oil and natural gas back there and the Park Service is obviously a bigger player relatively speaking because of the Great Smokey Mountains and, the Everglades, etc.
And the NPS has radically different policies (I am pretty sure) than the USFS or BLM because they are not a “multiple use” agency so they are far more into preservation and keeping everything in more of a natural state that has been impacted by humans as little as possible even though there are huge issues with in-holdings (like in the Great Smokey Mountains) and WUI because that area was settled so early and often way back when.
I can tell you that this is the first time since I started paying attention to how and where the country burns (1974) that it has been burning like this. Whoever doesn’t believe in global warming and the severe effects we are having on our environment are…delusional. The glaciers in Alaska have all but melted away and Washington is turning into the sunshine state.
Thanks, Gary,
I was interested in the whole picture, so this is a good start. It seems that the Eastern stew of “stakeholders,” i.e., special interests and corporations, is just as nasty and corrupt as the ones in the west, but more civilians are caught in the middle.
Global warming only adds additional drama global warming is a fact, not an article of faith. People acknowledge it or don’t, but the fact remains.
It might be worse back east because there is far less federal government involvement and a lot more from state government which are usually more susceptable to special interest groups and corruption.
This is because not only the private land is open to these groups but the state land is as well. There isn’t a profit motive, at least theoretically, in how federal land is managed, but there usually is in how state land is managed because I think all states manage state lands to benefit public schools. I think all land awarded to the states was done to benefit schools by law
Gary Olson says
DECEMBER 1, 2016 AT 1:10 PM
Joy asked, BLEACHERS ASKED “GARY… Do you, really, believe “the fire escaped and slopped over” the two-track… that 6×WFF and l×Helitack could NOT hold a ” creeping fire” from crossing over an approximately 8’wide-cleared-trail for an “active creeper length” of, perhaps, 125′?”
And I say, Are you implying they intentionally let the fire get away? Bleachers will reply later—I did not even read it until I saw you reply…it was from the bleachers not me…it seems the bleachers wants one to go back to chapter eleven and stuff that is in that chapter that was overlooked Big G and you were not in that chapter were you? If you are, I don’t believe that. not me Big G
I have learned to place my words in BOLD versus CAPS….Sonny IS okay…he was just having a real good time with others and got carried away…and he will be very very late- soft giggles
Sonny was having a good time with the others, so he will be late? I presume the others include Mr. Jim Beam, Mr. Jack Daniels, Mr. Johnny Walker et al?
No Sonny was with the stout Irish Gods and so I guess I will see him Monday after 2pm…so he can have the best Irish moments this weekend…as I cannot say HOW PROUD I was to see him hike and had not forgot something he would of went the whole way. Sonny is tough…great person he is…you cant help but to love a man who is truly like walking in an old Western novel and living it in a modern world…genuine 😂 indeed…have a great weekend…if my pc gets working I will post more another time…back to sleep…Sonny just called me and I went into garage to take call but call failed. Check youe email or text Sonny…back to sleep. I fell asleep at 5am.
Thanks go to the BOTH of you… for sharing the experience the other day… and for EVERYTHING.
And yes… Sonny ( ‘Irish’ ) Tex Gilligan is an amazing person.
Old Irish saying…
( You have to say this in your head with a heavy Irish brogue to get the full effect )…
“Watch me now… and listen quick… ‘cus you’ll never see the likes of me again.”
Tell Sonny ( when he gets a chance ) to post HIS ‘impressions’ from the ‘first-day-open-to-the-public’ hike.
Thanks for the compliment Joy and WTKTT. No I am not tough at all these days. Contrary to that I admire the wisdom and tenacity you both have along with the others that have stayed here to do justice not only for the firefighting profession but for the betterment of all citizens that are concerned with life and how their resources are spent.
This whole affair has been quite educational for me. But it also was no big surprise. Once people become mesmerized by hero worship rather than the truth they seem to buy into anything the hero wants to say. And in the Yarnell case we all know reputations were served over the truth and we understand the cost for doing that.
The memorial was neatly done and remind one of the Druid circle and even Stonehenge. In a few hundred years the iron will rust away and piles of rocks will remain around the ruins. The iron crosses will be gone but the rock piles will remain and people far in the future will wonder what ceremonies were there. But we are sure those men will be remembered for their efforts however misguided they were by their superiors. They indeed are heroes in doing that type work.
Sad that more obedience to safety was not carried out by their superiors. I will always see the errors made because I was there they day they died and looked off in that basin knowing that it was an absolute man killing situation to drop down in there. We after all saw the fire explode and take over a complete mountain–one you can see very clearly from that little shed they positioned on the two track right about where the men went down.
There are lessons to be learned by hiking that trail and now that people can visit the area they can see what happened and why you do not take your men into a box canyon to try to protect a building or two with a raging fire nearby and winds subject to change any moment. Maybe the greatest lesson will be directed at hiring bosses that are more considerate of the lives of their men.
I think Marsh knew better and I know Steed did because we heard of their arguments and Steed’s balking at going down. I knew better by common sense, but they knew better because they were wild land fire fighters trained at their profession. Maybe they believed those flimsy blankets would be some kind of protection–but surely they knew the energy dispersion of a wild land manzanita fire. So many questions yet we do know the wild land fire fighting profession can gain by the terrible management we saw at Yarnell.
We do hope Gary Olson gets his book out–It ought to be a best seller since it will talk to the facts and errors made here at Yarnell and the lessons to be learned. Maybe call it a young wild land fire fighter’s manual and how to greatly increase your odds of survival.
One thing if I had a son or daughter wanting to work at wild land fire fighting I would certainly want a close look at the Supervisor. RTS and Provencio proved that so I would want to know what his peers had to say about him before my kid went to work for that person. Young people are apt to follow orders and listen even when they know better–especially in a military like situation that we saw with GMHS training. You damn sure would not question authority there since it would cost you push ups or some other grueling punishment. I would want my kid to know when some ass wants you to die with him back off and let that fellow go if you can’t stop him. But then when you question these types of bosses, your job is at stake, but it is better to loose the job than be burned to death.
The Irish Gods be good to you and merry Christmas holidays, etc. I remember my sis painting tumbleweeds with spray paint for a Christmas Tree. It was a lot better than killing a nice pine tree–although we did cut a couple over the years. Now a days, I would not do that or buy one that had been cut. The dead tumbleweed is a better idea. Joy and I did plant about 20 pine tree seedlings here and they are taking off. Some of the trees burned off the property and so we are replacing them. I am not a tree hugger but do love the pines.
Joy has been very ill. Vomiting profusely in the shower yesterday and suffering extreme pain after the hike. She keeps on keeping on though and one has to admire her ability to go on despite her infirmities.
I was not there but on the hike some old timer’s dog pooped along the trail. The FS guard got upset and told the guy to rake up the poop and haul it out–some long hike with poop. The man refused–hell I don’t blame him –there is plenty coyote, deer, javalena, cow and other poop up there that that FS guy needs to take out if he is worried about poop. A dog or two or five pooping in the Weaver Range won’t add that much methane to the environment and will wash out as fertilizer in the first rain or snow.
Anyway, Joy volunteered and took the poop out for the Ranger and deposited it there in the garbage at the $670,000 parking lot. So we do have a good purpose for the parking lot–a place to dispose poop. They also have green toilets there as well–temporary or permanent fixtures, I do not know.
It is worth the hike, beautiful
terrain. The crippled lady trying to make it and Joy advised to turn around saved her missing the tour bus that drops people off.
It is all open range to hike now and the boundaries go right up almost to Helm’s front door. There is a jeep road right along the boundary as well–all on State Park Land.
This is all cutesy of the Tax Payer. So enjoy–
I am 😆 laughing hard. Sonny there is nor garbage can at parking lot. It is carry in and carry out so I think I was so tired it may be in the back area of your car….oops…
Too funny.
A dog ‘relieving’ himself out in the middle of the boondock.
What is the world coming to?
Sounds like Sue Black at Arizona State Parks needs to IMMEDIATELY commission Mike Dudley and Jim Karels to return to Arizona and conduct another ‘special investigation’.
“Serious Poop Investigation Team”
SPIT… for short.
Wait until ‘Arizona Parks’ realizes that the PUBLIC is actually ‘relieving themselves’ on the ‘trail’… because those port-a-potties used for the dedication are ‘going away’… and it’s a LOOOONG hike.
I also did a lot of ranting way back when WHY volunteer FIREMEN almost always make very, very, very poor wildland firefighters. Show me a volunteer FIREMAN who can legitimately pass a wildland firefighter fitness test and I will show you a leprechaun.
As a matter of fact, very, very, very few full time structural FIREMEN can pass a WF fitness test, or at least the tests from back in the day. I still have a feeling that walk/run pack test is much easier than the old step test or the 1.5 mile run, but who knows, who knows…some people say.
Yes…a lot of FIREMEN are in good shape, but it takes more than being in good shape, hitting the weights and having a physique for a FIREMAN’S calendar. In fact, unlike structural FIREMEN, WF never have to show how strong they are, there are no dragging sacks to prove you can drag or carry a body out of the burning buildings, hose carry’s, or pulling hose up several flights of stairs, strength has never really seemed to matter, it has always been 100% about cardiovascular fitness which is an entirely different issue, believe me…I know all about what a problem that can be. And once on the line, you don’t have to be able to go fast or be really strong, but you do have to have a lot of endurance and the ability to keep going, going, and going on very little sleep or even, rest, food, water or any creature comforts.
I have also written in the past about how much liability there would have been for the state to send volunteer FIREMEN up the Weavers to fight the YHF when it was a baby and could have been killed in it’s infancy.
I railed against Yarnell Hill Fire Department Chief Ben “Money Shot D’Over and those 3 goofs that were shown in the photo (I think they were on that next controversial fire on the outskirts of Yarnell) and I think it was one of the same goofs who took the selfie with the YHFD engine, ANYWAY…if ANY of those volunteer FIREMEN can pass a WF fitness for duty test administered by an independent authority (someone other than Chief Ben “Money Shot” D’Over or one of his buddies) I will KISS THEIR ASSES.
Well…OK, the leprechaun thing was hyperbole, but kissing their asses isn’t. There is NO WAY those goofs are going to pass a WF fitness for duty test.
I guess I could call myself a leprechaun (or maybe just the leper part…) and you could kiss my ass if you’d like 🙂 However, that’s not to say that ALL vollies could do it. The vast majority these days (especially the young kids) can barely lift their gear bags, and forget about the pack test… and really forget about humping a pack and tools up any sort of hill… (not to mention picking a fat guy up off the floor on a gurney) which has been a real surprise for me, seeing exactly how out of shape kids really are these days. Trying to whip my little youth crew (made up of really screwed up, so called at-risk kids) into shape is a major challenge… but not insurmountable… yet…
Volunteers are really not set up for wildland as they don’t train, they don’t train together, they only meet once a week (if that). It’s an afterthought, something they do in the middle of the night. Some are dedicated to helping people (which means EMS), most of the younger generation of these volunteers don’t give a shit about anything other than walking around with a cool fire jacket on. They don’t see fire hardly ever. That’s a setup for total and utter failure, which is generally on display at almost every non-ems call… just nobody outside the dept ever hears about it. Structure guys (especially the paid ones) just think they are gods… end of story…
There is also the mental strength that I think is seriously lacking in a lot of people these days possibly being replaced by the entitled attitudes so many display. The absolute adoration and hero worship of the public, politicians and press comes without them having to actually do anything… which in most rural areas is pretty much the norm.
I’ve been really surprised by the lack of any thought of all these municipal departments fielding wildland crews of the liability they are taking on… Its all full steam ahead, but yet a few years ago I was told never to tell a resident the fire dept would not come to save their stupid asses no matter how buried in the woods they were for fear of a lawsuit.
Everyone in the fire service seems to think “old school” is bad. They have to become more “progressive” and “all hazard”… bullshit. Just like the military, they are pussifying themselves and they can’t even see it, even when their members are keeling over from heart attacks, and even when they are “trained” for so many things and absolutely suck at performing any of it… and when the shit really hits the fan, the results of that become painfully obvious…
It’s all pretty fucking sad…
I intended my offer to kiss ass to be specific to those goofs who were in that photo months ago showing them grinning ear to ear on the tenderfoot fire.
Iam pretty sure if I kissed the ass of every volunteer firefighter in the country who can pass the test, I would,not get much else accomplished with the rest of my life, plus I would need a lot of chap stick and mouthwash, so….
Whoops just re-read my post and it looks like I had better stock up on chapstick and mouthwash.
Yes about the Con crews Gary. If they were paid the full wage the wild land fire figher gets then you would see those men would give their best. Slave labor wage on a job as dangerous as wild land fire fighting is deserves decent pay–no matter the person’s status. These days the system has so many people incarcerated–you can do time for not being able to pay a fine and many are in for that reason. A good estimation is that 20% are incorrigible and those other people ought to be in some sort of program of rehabilitation. Yet we in this civilized society do not seem to understand the gravity of the new think. Good lord you can go to prison these days for not having a $20 land pass. And debtors prison it is as well–something we abhorred from English Law.
But we can’t fix a broken system there. However, with the right BLM, State Land Bosses, and elite bullshitters we can fix how the wild land fire fighting system is wasting money by treating extreme emergencies–(Yarnell, et. al.) as such.
There can be a number of reasons and motives a situation like Yarnell lightening strike was not treated as an emergency Perhaps the system is gaining by allowing the fires to go full blown. They do gain–jobs, millions in retardant drops, millions for getting a multitude of fire departments to respond and profits soar for some. A number of firefighters have set fires just to get to work–why stop a good thing if nature is doing the job. So I can not second guess why the local departments laid back on this–Peeples Valley chief said it was out of their jurisdiction–the state has to call the shots. That principle comes down to like a labor union guy–I won’t preform anything even if simple if it is not on my job description–and that might include saving lives and a town as well.
Maybe the Yarnell thing was intended to be a prescribed burn. After all 320 acres that is now a state park had been set aside as an extreme fire danger 2 weeks before the fire.
The only other thing I can think of off hand is that no one gave a shit. Let the fucker burn–we will get to it when we get to it.
My Dad was a machine gunner in WW1–Kaiser Bill went up the hill to take a peak at France, Kaiser Bill came down the hill with bullet holes in his pants. — My Dad said his board was as important as his machine gun–it rained all the time he was there and if you did not have your board you were sleeping in the mud. But he said this that the American Army did not do like the French there–the Americans went right to work putting out the fire. They stopped the Germans in a hurry. Where have we lost the attitude to take care of business when it needs to be taken care of–especially in situations that if allowed to escalate become extremely life threatening. And in the case of Yarnell–property destruters as well.
Fortunately we do have wild land fire fighters of old that understand these things. At one time not so long ago the man in charge said charge! when danger struck. But that attitude –these days? Where is it?
The Yarnell trail was well done. What they forgot was a memorial with the names of all the 100 plus elderly and others like Zac Ashoor,29, who was developing a lung respirator for wild land fire fighers—these people died as consequence of the fire and retardant dumps around Yarnell. They forgot to post signs that this is Arizona’s worst fire fighting debacle ever–even beats Storm King that killed 17 in Colorado and Montana’s Mann Gulch that killed 13. The errors in all cases were similar–though that one in Mann Gulch had arson written on it from a FS employee.
And some will say Sonny don’t know shit–but then those that do will have to include a number of retired wild land fire fighters that agree and their opinions do count greatly.
https://twitter.com/azstateforestry
the title says THIN THE THREAT
and my first thought was… I am trying… starting with human resource areas
“just saying”
‘Thin the Threat’ indeed.
As in… “Lessons Learned” from previous fatalities.
That would be nice.
Notice that actor ‘Jeff Bridges’ ( who plays Duane Steinbrink in the Kosinski ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum ) is posting on Arizona Forestry’s Twitter page.
saw that the dude was on there-
WTK
Could you provide links to any pertinent information about the cause and management by the Chimney Tops 2 fire in east Tennessee?
It does not appear on inciweb. This fire appears to have started 11/23 and helicopter water drops began 11/27 despite severe drought and proximity to Gatlinburg.
This fire has taken civilian life, caused substantial loss of property and also has burned into the Great Smoky Mountain National Park. Wildfire Today is providing some coverage. Many Thanks
Calvin,
Thank you for asking this question. I was surprised to see no info since the 27th, and that was very sketchy. It appears that fire management will be transferred from NPS to national incident management, so they may give better updates. According to the NPS press releases, the park is without power or phone service.
Reply to calvin post on November 30, 2016 at 8:02 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> WTK
>> Could you provide links to any pertinent information about the cause
>> and management by the Chimney Tops 2 fire in east Tennessee?
>>
>> This fire has taken civilian life, caused substantial loss of property
>> and also has burned into the Great Smoky Mountain National Park.
>> Wildfire Today is providing some coverage. Many Thanks
If I find anything… I’ll post some links.
Are you getting the same feeling about this one that I am?
That someone ( or someone(s), plural ) REALLY FUCKED UP?
I find it odd that the NATIONAL NEWS is now covering this story… but in the report I saw the only ‘official’ that CBS NEWS could find who would make any ‘comments’ at all to the media was some guy from the Tennessee Department of Transportation.
Why do I get the feeling that the ‘grinding’ sound I’m hearing is the ‘circling of the wagons’ ( again )?
Maybe it’s just like the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ from Yarnell back this summer.
They still have the media ‘fooled’ into believing that the massive ‘fire’ they ended up showing on the ‘news’ was the ‘original’ fire… when ( in reality )… the fire only turned into a ‘conflagration’ AFTER their own massive ‘manual burnouts’.
7 dead (so far), 700 structures destroyed.
Active fire x several days with exceptional drought and wind.
60mph winds forecast 24 hours prior to blow up.
No evacuation notices. Hotels still checking people in late day Monday, hours before blow up.
What happened here??
Calvin and WTKTT,
It looks like most of the deaths were west of Gatlinburg, about the same distance as GSMNP is east. Google “Chalet Village” to see the location. It sounds like lots of jurisdictional conflicts and dead zones, inexperienced staff, steep roads, no evacuation planning, wood structures with no defensible buffer zones, matched with tinder dry conditions, high winds, and most inhabitants being part-timers, tourists and vacationers who don’t know the terrain or much else about the area or fire behavior.
A mother and her two young daughters waited until the fire was across the street before calling her husband to ask what she should do. She has not been heard from since.
I don’t think anyone knew how bad it could be or how fast it would go south.
Thanks.
Do you know who was in command of the fire prior to the blow up Monday? The fire was in the national park prior to that.
Thanks
Calvin,
I’m not sure there was unified command. I thought I saw a press release on the NPS site stating that command would transfer to a National incident command on Wednesday, which is what happened, but I can’t find it now. From reading local news sites, it sounds like most of the structures were protected by a variety of local departments, with police doing evacuations door to door.
I was wondering if the NPS just let the fire burn within the park boundaries, and are afraid to own it after it blew out of the park. I have never experienced such a complete information blackout in any other wildland fire I have followed.
There is more info on the GSMNF Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/GreatSmokyMountainsNPS/photos/a.224440994279905.59347.130618693662136/1252436828146978/?type=3
NBC just announced 10 confirmed deaths. The mom and daughters still missing.
National Park, you say? Where fire is desired as a natural part of the ecosystem? Where ‘nature’ should remain ‘untrammeled’ by man? Did I say that? No. Aldo Leopold said that. Back to the shadows for the Woodsman…
Just ask Big G to remind you of the expected performance of the National Park Service in wildfire management in comparison to other state & federal land management agencies. You can count on Big G to tell you the truth.
Alright, you convinced me, I’ll keep going: In the beginning we had a large number of devastating wildfires so we buckled down & became very good at wildfire suppression…which led to an over-abundance of accumulated fuels in the forest…which led to a call to let fires burn for fuel reduction…which can be a problem in certain areas where people live…which some people believe shouldn’t be inhabited in the first place (make all those stupid bastards live in the city! sarc)…untrammeled nature after all…problem is the pesky humans already live there so what’s a fire manager to do? Let nature take its course? Easy for you to say. Tell it to the people caught in the crossfire.
The current national fire policy could be referred to as leaning in the direction of: ” Let it burn, bitches.”
Woodsman out…
What a coincidence, I have already hit it here with more or less what I know.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-416910
Although the way I remember it, the NPS really got their asses kicked in Yellowstone in 1988 (which were fires I helped fight from the office) with their policies? Although they are pretty hard headed and so convinced of their own superiority, it probably didn’t make them rethink their ideas.
The chimney tops 2 fire was first reported 11/23 at 5pm.
Water drops started 11/27.
I wonder if holiday weekend contributed to slow response?
I wonder if it was more like Woodsman described. NPS just let it burn into the WUI where it went out of control. The local FDs may have little experience with this level of wildland fire, seeing as how this is a rainforest.
I also wonder if the “safe” retardants they use weren’t safe enough for the wetlands of the Smokies.
I think your comment, “The local FDs may have little experience with this level of wildland fire, seeing as how this is a rainforest.” might be right on target and ties into what I said above.
I’m not sure anybody back there has seen anything like they are experiencing now…ever. Which unfortunately may account for what seems to be a truly horrific body count of civilians and it will probably get worse.
Maybe those in charge are having similar problems to the YHF team and thinking in a linear way by sequentially painting by the numbers when they need to be taking exponentially non linear jumps through worm holes in space?
Scary.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ( Central Yavapai Fire Department Battalion Chief, Training Division, turned ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire ).
When asked about how/why the Yarnell Hill Fire made mincemeat of his ‘trigger points’ and many civilians were *almost* killed on June 30, 2013… all he said was…
“The fire outperformed our expectations”.
‘Expectations’ are always a combination of knowledge and experience.
It may turn out the people handling this fire in Tennessee had NEITHER… and were also not admitting that fact to themselves and ‘asking for help’ soon enough.
SIDENOTE: It’s already documented that Gary Cordes first set all of his ‘trigger points’ on the MORNING of Sunday, June 30, 2013…
..but even as the day went on and ‘weather reports’ were being broadcast predicting the afternoon thunderstorms and the ( expected ) outflow winds and direction changes… Gary Cordes did NOTHING to ‘alter’ or ‘adjust’ his morning ‘trigger points’ in any way.
Could turn out to be similar in Tennessee.
Weather was PREDICTED… but did anyone lift a finger to make any ‘changes’ to any plans or ‘trigger points’ or ‘evacuation notices’?
You can get all the weather reports in the world… but if you don’t REACT to them ( like Gary Cordes did not )…. bad shit can happen.
OR…the personnel responsible for protecting private land in the state of Tennessee were force-fed a ‘shit sandwich’ caused in part by the NPS ‘let it burn’ ‘all hail mother nature’ ‘humans are bad for the earth’ policies that led to a gigantic fireball on NPS land which impacted private land in a form that was next to impossible to deal with without major losses in lives, structures, & acres burned. Imagine standing on the park boundary watching THAT one develop.
Covering all bases, after all because it’s the right thing to do.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
December 2, 2016 at 3:56 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Covering all bases, after all because
>> it’s the right thing to do.
Exactamundo.
Actually… speaking of ‘bases’… we don’t even know what the ‘playing field’ really looks like yet on this one.
There are SOME details about what happened… but not much.
The ‘silence’ from ‘officialdom’ on this one is ‘deafening’.
The wagons are definitely ‘circling’ here.
The only ‘statements’ coming out of some junior PIO for the Smokies ( Dana Sohen, who won ’employee of the year’ for the Smokies Park last year ) are repeatedly trying to get the media to just focus on the fact that they *believe* the original fire on that ‘trail’ in the Smokies Park was ‘human caused’.
As if that gives everyone a ‘free pass’ for anything that happens after that.
More to come on this… I’m sure.
Muzzy,
Yes, it’s just as I described with the NPS. I want to add one very important piece of information that either some don’t know or haven’t really thought about:
Once a wildfire reaches a certain state of scope & intensity due to the fuels, weather, & topography (items that dictate fire behavior), there is NO AMOUNT OR TYPE of personnel & equipment available (in existence) that can do a damn thing about mitigating the situation at all. Nothing. Until a significant CHANGE in the 3 factors that dictate fire behavior occurs, there simply isn’t anything that can be done about it except to get people out of the way in time.
The LEOs can’t shoot it out. The politicians can’t stump speech it out. The armed forces can’t bomb it out. The hippies can’t peace it out. The populace can’t vote it out. The veterinarians can’t neuter it out. The unions can’t negotiate it out. Attorneys can’t argue it out. Firefighters can’t put it out regardless of the available equipment, competency, training or culture. What you can & should do is be honest about the situation & get people out of the way in time. Then a good firefighter resumes taking pics & videos of the fire from a safe location with the best view.
I suppose that’s a 3rd parallel with Yarnell: Am apparent lack of orderly timely evacuation.
Woodsman
Spot on, Woodsmeister.
Thanks for the ‘reality check’… and your ‘iterations’ really drive it home.
There could even be more ‘reminders’… such as…
People can’t PRAY it out.
Social Media can’t FaceText it out.
Donald Trump can’t LIE it out.
etc…. etc…
There is only a certain ‘window of opportunity’… and then it’s time to ‘Evacuate EARLY… evacuate OFTEN’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I suppose that’s a 3rd parallel with Yarnell:
>> An apparent lack of orderly timely evacuation.
Yes. That much is a GIVEN at this point no matter how ‘silent’ officialdom is trying to be or how inept the media has been so far in asking the ‘hard questions’.
The 11th fatality was an 80 year old woman. The last contact with her came when she called her son and told him her house was ALREADY ‘on fire’. The phone ( yes, it was a land-line… not a ‘dumbphone’ ) went dead WHILE she was asking HIM what she should do.
And it wasn’t some fucking ‘cabin in the woods’. She lived in a nice house on the EDGE of a ‘development’.
Inexcusable.
That is a horrible story and proof in my mind that those who have covered up or lied about the true lessons learned from the Yarnell Hill Fire have blood on their hands and I am confident there is more to come.
Everyone needs to re-calibrate their O SHIT O’Meters because the world in which wildfires exist is changing before our very eyes and those who are responsible for getting that word out…need to get the their FUCKING HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES.
I know they will say they are doing what they need to be doing but obviously; they need to do it more, better and faster.
Woodsman, I wish the managers of the Yarnell fire and the GMHS crew leaders had known that bit of wisdom you posted: Woodsman says:
Once a wildfire reaches a certain state of scope & intensity due to the fuels, weather, & topography (items that dictate fire behavior), there is NO AMOUNT OR TYPE of personnel & equipment available (in existence) that can do a damn thing about mitigating the situation at all. Nothing.
Reply to Muzzy post on December 1, 2016 at 3:30 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I don’t think anyone knew how bad it could be or
>> how fast it would go south.
Anyone?
Are you just referring to ‘civilians’?
What about the people who CALL themselves ‘firefighters’?
If they are not familiar with what CAN happen… what they fuck are they doing out there CALLING themselves ‘firefighters’ ( and pulling down paychecks )?
Reminds me of what Brendan McDonough said in one of his endless radio interviews when he was out promoting his for-profit book.
Here is a transcript of Brendan McDonough’s KTAR radio interview that he did just back on June 5 of this year ( 2016 )…
http://ktar.com/player/?a=322233
————————————————————————
+2:35
Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about what Wildland Firefighters DO?
Brendan McDonough: So… ya know… the… the MAIN objective for US is… is the SAME as structure firefighters. Save lives. That’s a… that’s a BIG thing we have because right now we’re facing the urban interface. A huge… ya know… a huge dilemma. With what we’ve seen in Alberta, Canada this summer is… ya know… we lost sixteen hundred homes and… ya know… thank god we haven’t lost anybody yet.
+5:31
As the day unfolded… the storm had come in and the weather had started to change, and then, ya know, the winds had started to shift, which changed the direction of the fire… and so… we started to have homes threatened to the north… and then it was the northeast… and then the homes were burning IN town… ya know… and that’s when I left my lookout spot… right before then. And so… as… ya know… this fire just kinda SHIFTED… throughout the day… it really.. ya know… had a lotta SURPRISES for us. And… and… even in structural… there’s certain things that happen that we just can’t seem to comprehend… and that’s when… ya know… my… my brothers… for their reasons and for what they believed in… decided to leave their position… to try and get back to Yarnell.
+6:44
Some of the things we were basing our judgement off… ya know… wasn’t… wasn’t correct. And… for that… for that to be said… it’s… it’s humans. We… we… we make errors. So… we really struggle with… ya know… why… why did this happen. Something had to have gone wrong. Someone had to have made a mistake. And it’s not as much as someone made a mistake… it’s… it’s someone made a DECISION based on the information they had… and sometimes the information we have just isn’t enough… or it… or it’s not close enough to the timeframes and things like that. And we… we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did… so… we… you know… we’re faced to be put in certain situations that we… in the beginning, you sign up for.
————————————————————————-
So Brendan McDonough ( former ‘elite’ Hotshot firefighter ) said…
“…we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did.”
They all called themselves not just ordinary ‘Wildland Firefighters’… but ‘elite Hotshots’.. but ( according to McDonough ) they couldn’t possibly have been EXPECTED to fully understand what can happen when EXPECTED thunderstorm outflow winds hit a Wildland fireline?
Really?
Even though others were THERE that same day like Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan didn’t need anyone to tell HIM what was GOING to happen… long before it did?
Or even though local resident and hunter Rick McKenzie had TOLD ‘Granite Mountain’ that morning ( paraphrasing )… “Watch out, fellas. If that fire gets down in those BOWLS… it’s gonna BLOW UP on ya”?
As for Tennessee… now that civilians are DEAD… a LOT of ‘questions’ need to be asked about who really was doing what ( possibly letting something ‘burn’… and/or possible lighting backfires, etc. ) and what SHOULD have ‘expected’ based on weather reports… and what they ‘should’ have been doing about it ( timely evacuations ).
Here is a random and very sickening thought. What IF the SAIT and their SAIR would really have been honest about why the YHF was a disaster?
Maybe…just maybe, that truth could have made a difference in the traiing given to WF and WF wannabe’s over the past 3 years and maybe some legitimate “lessons learned” could have been really learned…maybe those people in the Great Smokey Mountains would not have died?
That is WHY the truth about what happened on the YHF matters.
Does the SAIT have the blood of those (10 now) people on their hands? I think they do. And I think there will be more to come, maybe not this year or next year, but sooner or later there will be.
If we ever get the full story on why so many CIVILIANS are now DEAD in Tennessee… you may be exactly right.
Depending on what really happened… it may be DIRECTLY ‘traceable’ back to Lessons that COULD have been learned ( industry-wide ) if Mike Dudley and Jim Karels hadn’t been more worried about preserving their pensions than reporting the actual TRUTH about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
That’s the funny thing about ‘Karma’.
It always ‘comes around’.
At the moment… I think whatever happened in Tennessee might end up resembling the ‘fuck up’ with Gary Cordes and his ‘trigger points’ on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Weather being ‘expected’… but not having the experience, or the knowledge ( or the brain cells? ) to ‘adjust’ your ‘evacuation trigger points’ accordingly.
*OR*
It could end up ‘resembling’ what happened on the SECOND large Yarnell fire ( The Tenderfoot Fire ) earlier this year.
When all is said and done… it could turn out to be ( just like the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ ) that the actual ‘conflagration’ that ended up costing millions and millions of dollars to get ‘under control’ was NOT even the ‘original’ fire itself. It was the result of the massive BURNOUTS that were initiated by Chielf Ben Palm and the BLM.
If they had NOT been able to get that ‘conflagration’ that resulted from their OWN ‘burnouts’ under control… the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ itself would have eventually marched straight into some actual ‘communities’ there to the northeast of Yarnell… and who knows how BAD that might have turned out.
Death toll is now 11.
Let’s hope it doesn’t get to 19 ( or more )…
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/14-000-forced-to-flee-gatlinburg-tennessee-as-wildfire-rages/70000118
WTKTT,
I’m not ready to link what happened in Tennessee to Yarnell with burnouts but I can imagine another link which I’ve been trying to get the point across on mostly deaf ears for several years now – failure to extinguish a fire when it was small because #1 small fires don’t get the $$ flowing & #2 the desire of some agencies for fire re-introduction as a natural component of the landscape.
Read my “forced-feeding of a shit-sandwich’ post above for more context.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that while many forests are dependent on naturally occurring fires for renewal, not all are. Is there evidence that the Smokies are? Moreover, are arson fires good stand-ins for natural fires (crown fires vs. understory, etc.). A mindless “fire good” is no better than “fire bad.”
Then we have the moving target of what’s natural in a rapidly warming environment. It’s ironic that those affected most by wildland fire are also least likely to acknowledge global warming. Those in the blue coastal regions are most likely to be wiped out when Greenland melts and falls into the ocean, but that is still a few years away.
Muzzy,
You’ll have to ask a card-carrying member of the club that believes in anthropogenic global warming instead of me. (do we have to break up now?) I am currently a member of the club that believes it’s the ultimate arrogance of man to believe that humans are powerful enough to change the weather/climate of planet earth. I actually believe it’s all a hoax & a planned initiative by the powers-that-be in order to implement a global tax on every soul on earth over & beyond the scale of our current subjugation…which would keep the common man a slave forever instead of free. Others mileage may vary, of course.
Love,
Woodsman
Muzzy,
I think we all love the Woodsman, but I am the only one who has been on this thread who everyone knows everything about because…well, I am off the rez and have no plans to go back.
I’m sure there are things about almost everyone who has posted here that would make almost everyone else who has posted here not want to invite that person to their homes or even meet them in person.
That being said, I am pretty sure The Woodsman is one of THOSE people. So…you and I can either ignore the Woodsman and everything he writes, or we can learn to compartmentalize the many faceted aspects of who he is in total and just take advantage of his inside knowledge and insight into the WF culture and call it good.
I am pretty sure I am one of THOSE people as well. I think there are very few of you who would want spend very much time with me…but that’s okay. As I am fond of saying, I am not here to make friends and build my Christmas card list, but I think together we have made some real progress in figuring out what went wrong on the YHF in spite of our differences.
I mean…would you want to actually meet HAL 9000 and come face to face with those red non-blinking robotic eyes?
Scary…right?
Reply to Woodsman post on
December 2, 2016 at 4:32 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I actually believe it’s all a hoax
You DO actually know what ‘carbon dioxide’ is… right?… or is that a ‘faith/belief based’ thing for you as well?
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I am currently a member of the club
>> that believes it’s the ultimate arrogance
>> of man to believe that humans are
>> powerful enough to change the
>> weather/climate of planet earth.
Really?
Two questions, then.
1. How many ‘man-made’ nuclear bombs are still fully functional and ‘ready to go’?
2. What happens to the weather/climate on this planet if we are ‘arrogant’ enough to set them all off?
GO WOODSMAN!
Woodsman:
reason I said GO WOODSMAN!
Satellite temperature data does not support the assumption that temperatures are rising rapidly and I agree with you Woodsman that alot of it is man made hype—ask the pioneers to LIFE that are still ALIVE—current temperatures are always compared to the temperatures of the 1980’s, but for many parts of the world the 1980’s was the coldest decade of the last 100+ years and I remember being in middle school in New Jersey when I had to spend my first Winter away from Arizona and it actually SNOWED in Metro Phoenix area. Times and buildings and asphalt/cement roads/highways etc have increased since yesteryear and the advancement ( Urban heat island ) effect skews the temperature data of a significant number of weather stations because our world is more advanced then back then…I have GEARED UP not for global warming but the reality of a freezing point so my gear is as if it one day become a Russian Winter here in Arizona…alot of people do not know if you take niacin before going to bed it is a natural bed warmer…not the flush free one though…like Lipinski would tell me about his garden from the 30’s and each decade as it passed…the changes…always, but always, it has been about the cynical exploitation of mass crowd hysteria and about the sly manipulation by activists and crony capitalists of the political system in order to advance the cause of global governance he really felt it was man made dramatics- plus I would never just buy into media when it is the media that has done the people harm on many topics…the media though may have its own behind the scenes “limitations” just like the tv/film industry—
Last night I was talking to someone Sonny knows and I was shared something from “beyond” about the person so I just said the message I was hearing and it was “spot on”..it is creepy but it as confirmation that their maternal grandma had a message that had to get through and they both were in awe in the timing as it was perfect timing and no way in hell I could of known…about global warming I will believe the people who have lived it and know their flora and farming and gardens…vs buying into the hype. PLUS if you are watching; global warming enthusiasts, at the record high snowfall/ice/cold in many areas…oceans are less..polar bears are doing real well… It will take a massive campaign by the truth seekers to counter the mainstream propaganda surrounding all of these issues, and to change the the path of self destruction that we are on.
but I live in my bubble—
my bubble is a hubba bubba bubbalicious bubble…
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fm4EASsm2Us/hqdefault.jpg
🙂
WTKTT posted So Brendan McDonough ( former ‘elite’ Hotshot firefighter ) said…
“…we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did.”
Donut is funny—he even said we did what we had signed up to do–and I remember his thing to do was to strictly take orders on a daily basis. He was good at that and did that despite his not understanding fire behavior or that he was in the most dangerous spot he could possibly be in out of sight of the main crew. In fact we were watching the fire not very distant from him exploding up the near mountain and thunderstorms coming his direction from the NE and any cowboy worth his beans would know the winds can absolutely reverse in a moments notice. Despite his ignorance about fire fighting and safety rules, the Irish Gods must have had mercy on his Irish descent ass and granted one Frisby saved Donut only because he was in there by chance on his quad. Actually Frisby saved his own butt as well since they would have both died there had the quad died out.
But what can you expect out of the mouth of babes. Donut was left to fare for himself when some one of authority should have had him in the black or out an hour earlier. It could not be his fault if he had perished as the others because he was strictly taking orders and did not have the knowledge or experience to keep himself safe and alive. Lets hope he never gets to be promoted to a Supervisor or advisor to wild land fire fighters.
it was great to see the loved ones and Donut here today…not one news media footage did I see any real coverage and channel fox 10 ensured the story was a headline with the best honor and respect while others blended it in with other new and used redundant footage…I will be there to walk on the land tomorrow…I will do it in a quiet way that I will get my time with my trail and my way out 6.30.13 looking at the improvements…and seeing the men’s plaques…
it will be a very very hard time for me because I am walking the area with new data and the new data and looking out amongst that 6-30-13 I hope I can pull through it…I broke down today and I honestly was to a point I thought how can I even go forward…I am wondering how fast some of these foias will surface so I can gently push the missing elements to the surface by facts and records and documents vs coming here and saying “speak up”//// I will let you know how the hike goes–
Here is a PUBLIC YouTube video of the full ‘private’ dedication ceremony that took place today at the new PUBIC State Park’s trailhead parking lot…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iKqb7O-L8
They ‘lose the video feed’ near the end… right after the 4 SEATS fly over doing the ‘missing man formation’ thing… but it does contain all the ‘speeches’ and the unveiling of the signage there at the parking lot.
The families met earlier this morning out at the deployment site itself… and sure enough… they used the Boulder Springs Ranch property just one more time to allow them all to ‘walk’ out to the actual ‘deployment site’.
The ceremony that followed that ( in the parking lot ) was sort of lame.
‘Missing man’ formation ( 4 SEATS ) was LATE ( twice ).
Wind blew the flags over.
Guy reading all the names of the GM Hotshots forgets to say Garret Zuppiger’s name.
Senator John McCain blew it off and did not attend.
The speeches were ‘short’.
Chief Dan Fraijo’s speech was the only one that got near the TRUTH when he confirmed ( to the assembled ‘family members’ ) that they “Took a risk… and didn’t make it… and that’s why they are all dead”.
From Fraijo’s speech at today’s private park dedication…
————————————————————————————————–
“I am so HAPPY that we have a place now… that we can ‘acknowledge’ not only what they did… whatever sacrifices they made… Remember folks… these men were willing to take RISKS… not make ‘sacrifices’ as we… as I just mentioned. They were willing to take RISKS. Unfortunately… the risk they took ( and we’ll never know the true answer to it ) was one of those ( RISKS ) that caused these fatalities to take place.”
————————————————————————————————
Fraijo was basically ‘confirming’ ( to the assembled ‘family members’ today ) that he knew for a fact that one of the underlying ‘philosophies’ of the GM organization ( under Marsh’s supervision ) was the same thing Brendan McDonough had related to the ADOSH investigators…
“Risk a lot, Save a lot”.
…and it is one of the direct and/or causal and/or contributing factors to why they were all there dedicating a ‘State Park’ to 19 dead men.
Fraijo also confirmed to the ‘family members’ at the dedication that he knew for certain that Eric Marsh was a “My way or the highway” kinda guy…
Fraijo also said ( in his speech to the ‘family members’ )…
————————————————————————————————
“They ( the Granite Mountain Hotshots ) learned about DISCIPLINE.
And I ASSURE you… Eric Marsh was a disciplinarian.
He wanted PERFECTION… and he GOT perfection.”
————————————————————————————————
That matches what is documented in Eric Marsh’s own personnel files… when Prescott’s first Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink was telling Eric Marsh ( when Stenibrink put Marsh on PROBATION because of ‘personal issues’ ) that Steinbrink did not consider Marsh ( at THAT time ) to be qualified to be a ‘Superintendent’… and that Marsh needed to stop YELLING at his co-workers just because they weren’t living up to HIS ‘expectations’.
Followup…
Regarding what Chief Dan Fraijo confirmed to the assembled ‘family members’ today ( that the GM orgainization, under Eric Marsh, were RISK TAKERS )… I still can’t help thinking about deceased GM Hotshot John Percin Jr.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was only the SECOND actual ‘fire’ that John Percin Jr. had been ‘out on’ in his entire life.
And the FIRST fire that John Percin Jr. had ever been ‘out on’ in his life was just the DAY BEFORE ( The West Spruce Fire )… where he suffered ‘heat stroke’ but was still allowed to be on the roster for the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ the very next day.
I doubt that John Percin Jr. ever had time to even fully understand what “Risk a lot, Save a lot” even meant.
He was totally TRUSTING the OTHERS to ‘know’… and to keep him alive.
His TRUST was ( tragically ) misplaced.
He never made it to even just his THIRD fire.
Is it just me, or was that dedication ceremony small, disjointed, disappointing, and anti-climactic? Or was I expecting too much from the build up and previous ceremonies?
I guess I just expected a lot more of…everything and I was kind of let down even though my invitation got lost in the mail.
Whoops, just read WTKTT post more carefully and I see he thinks the ceremony was lame as well…so that makes at least two of us.
Joy,
Thank you for your perspective of the trail and park opening.
Hopefully you will have some support with you today as you hike the trail.
Diane
Diane-
I took some on a virtual email tour today as it happened on my GMHS trail hike-
I am tired but I will download to dropbox now that Sonny is home and crashed asleep.
when I emailed to Sonny’s pc- I lost some pics and they all went out of order like on 6-30-13…I am tired so what I present is what it is…
this is the dropbox for the OPENING DAY of the GMHS Memorial Park
and again the amount of hard work that went into this— was fabulous
and it was very strange to hike MY 6-30-13 trail which than transformed into an Arizona State Memorial Park trail (the wildlife have moved on and the normal scat is gone and I feel like I was let out of prison and back to being FREE to walk an area I did for sooooo long but I am still greatly disappointed in this state park for NOT YET fulfilling my FOIA and how I have been singled out and treated on the aftermath of this fire) —
those 19 men know what I am doing for them…when some people do not even comprehend the extensive amount of data I will be getting soon and when it is all done I will have received 71 entities data
so when I ran into hiker on the trails today- Joanne Christensen said she is new to Wilhoit and in January she is a “storyteller” to Yanrell Community Center and she would like to tell the story of the men…unless she wants to not have cronyism and nepotism and be labelled as I have and have YCSO called on the most dumb stuff and be in court…really do not tell the pure story…but I cannot tell you how many locals say as well as Joanne—and Diane…write a book…I ramble with my health concerns so not gonna happen but I do come to IM and I ask people to donate to IM as well if they think they want to buy into anything because this blog is the longest standing where ANYONE can come here and speak about any fires—-
I also think donations should go to the prison crews ADC and that young group that did alot of work…alot….not into the State’s hands…
This park today Arizona State Park said will be a unmanned park with temporary ranger moments.
I met a WISE MAN on the trails- Keith from Arizona State Park when we spoke on “rambling” he said he got in the habit when he knows everything is public records in this world to keep sentences 3 or less and if it takes more than call the person-
I am going to do my best to adapt that idea.
h t tp :/ /w w w.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial .o r g/
to recap what went on via email:
Date: Nov 30, 2016 10:12am some received deployment photos. I also stated how many I passed on trail:
There was one couple and one man so far…we peaked at the start and nothing on 2 track yet so just 3 and us 2 so fat and one coming down now
——————
Date: Nov 30, 2016 10:14 No restrictions
If Sonny and I can hike in poor health
Anyone can
———————
Date: Nov 30, 2016 10:27 Quiet here
1 runner and her dog coming down and later behind is one man and behind him is 2
———————–
Date: Nov 30, 2016 10:43 Runner with dog at deployment zone said she pass only total of 3 with some behind her away
———————-
Date: Nov 30, 2016 10:53 i can imagine the flaming front 🔥
————————————–
Date: Nov 30, 2016 10:54 Nice man from prescott with ruger hat He also confirms it has been only 3 and then us 2
————————————-
Date: Nov 30, 2016 10:59
Subject: I have my investigative eyes open And saw this barely peaking out of rugged brush area under a rock stuck to a broken burnt branch
—————————————–
Date: Nov 30, 2016 11:03
Subject: They made a trail to the men And some steep areas they helped with stone steps
—————————————————–
Date: Nov 30, 2016 11:06
Subject: Approaching up to the saddle Very well done path
Very delightful trail
——————————————-
Date: Nov 30, 2016 12:00 I just passed at grants sign
Local rick and male friend
——————————————
Date: Nov 30, 2016 12:13
Subject: Ran into 6 more going up And state park keith
Area will be manned temporarily but is considered an unmanned park
———————————————
Date: Nov 30, 2016 12:40 Subject: Ran into 3 more. 2 from germany and moved to prescott older ladies and an older man from phoenix dexked out like dr ted putnam
———————————————–
Date: Nov 30, 2016 12:39
Subject: 3 more coming up, 3 ladies
This is weird how our path is now a state park trail
Weird
Sonny went home half hour ago
Probably to write about it
——————————————-
Date: Nov 30, 2016 12:48
Subject: Now the action Pretty late in day.
I just had a group of then a group of 5 than 8 than 4 than grand canyon state park mark who i took his dog poop where he had it out with that hunter dog…carry in and out and 2 loved ones from Prescott
Pretty active in this section
——————————————-
Date: Nov 30, 2016 12:52
Subject: Wow. So now i am seeing
A group of 2 ladies and black n white dog
4 folks
5 after that
And then Prescott couple..78 and 82y.o.
——————————————–
Date: Nov 30, 2016 12:54
Subject: Passed 6 more Ranging from 78 to 87yo
—————————————————–
between 2;10pm and within that half hour we said to anyone who did not want to wait on shuttle bus could ride back up to Yarnell with us to their car- Rick did.
I am sorry for those who did not get emails “live” and have to see the screwed up order this pc did just as it did on 6-30-13—so sorry—tired and crashing now…it might magically shot it in right order—who knows…the link is made for all but as well for out of state folks and disabled folks—there is a way disabled folks can get in if they get an appt.—I am sure they would not turn you away..
Plus if I can do it today…when I was AVIDLY and always hiking it I ranged 168-198 pounds and with my screwed up health and eating watermelon and cucumbers to get that epithelium lining to start healing…but I am a crazy weight range of 202-222 but I have stepped on the scale for a day and half with a very pressurized tummy at 227.5 so if I can do it…with all my bs…this trail is a MUST…I highly recommend it…TOP NOTCH…thank you to Amanda and the rest-
good night.
Bruce Hanna has to love the new way to site—no rolling rocks, Bruce 🙂
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oc66p6kr81xfie4/AACap21RDhAWQ7_t41XPWmxSa?dl=0
shout out to
jimmybobbydale for his rememberance…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNaMhSlASVD/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNZ5iBsBqNB/
SPECIAL THANK YOU TO:
americanconservationexperience
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNR_BVjBm10/?taken-by=americanconservationexperience
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNaQLqEgEeP/
I am aware of a number of llcs got to attend private ceremony??? yet not the eyewitness…weird…
even Fernanda Santos attended the private ceremony:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNZxG2xAfkg/
one of the ones that was on the trails today:
https://www.instagram.com/rockinuphoto/
WHERE TRUE CREDIT IS DESERVED:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BL_0kCCh06w/
also posted it to show wwtktt you were right—they used red flags and orange ribbons but some sections as it is in video does have pink ribbons as I did my homework 🙂
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHS16h-DVuB/
On November 30, 2016 at 10:29 pm
Joy A. Collura said…
>> also posted it ( the ACE video ) to
>> show wwtktt you were right—they
>> used red flags and orange ribbons
>> but some sections as it is in video
>> does have pink ribbons.
Copy that. Good ‘eye’ spotting it on your hike.
Thanks again for taking the time today to ‘share’ that experience with the rest of us.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 30, 2016 at 10:10 pm
Dropbox… Photos of new State Park…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oc66p6kr81xfie4/AACap21RDhAWQ7_t41XPWmxSa?dl=0
Great photos, Joy.
Thank you for sharing;
Joy,
Thanks again…Great Job!
https://news.azpm.org/p/news-spots/2016/11/29/101874-state-park-commemorating-fallen-granite-mountain-hotshots-to-open/
we did not see (2) all black dogs UP ON THE TRAILS…must of been a parking lot passing thru photo op-
SAW ALOT OF THAT!
Joy,
Thank you for providing this virtual tour. It maybe time for me to make it up there to see things for myself.
Joy,
Looking at the pictures that you took of the new park-deployment site, trail area etc.
Thank you for doing this for those of us who couldn’t be there.
Great job!
Cheerleader says
NOVEMBER 28, 2016 AT 11:01 AM
from the bleachers again:
(copy/paste)—>
GARY… Do you, really, believe “the fire escaped and slopped over” the two-track… that 6×WFF and l×Helitack could NOT hold a ” creeping fire” from crossing over an approximately 8’wide-cleared-trail for an “active creeper length” of, perhaps, 125′? What was the name of the “most famous hotshot superintendent” (did you help investigate and put him in jail)… how did he take a spent lightning-ignited fire and liven it up, again?
Question, you are talking about the con crew right? They were the 6 WF you are referring to?
Joy A. Collura says
NOVEMBER 27, 2016 AT 6:13 PM
My initial reaction-
Absolutely not Big G.
I am working on several answers- and taking your statement under consideration.
It should of been handled first two days… end of story.
Short Answer, yes…it should have, and I will work on a longer response.
And I said down below in case you missed it that I did not work on Van Bateman’s case, I only knew those who did, although I worked with them on many other cases. And I do believe that all of the fires he set were from scratch, not from encouraging lighting fires to burn. He may have started some in areas that were hit by lightning to help cover his tracks though.
Thank you so much for taking my statement under consideration…that means a lot coming from you.
I will present today’s hike tomorrow or soon…I’m a DD right now for Sonny…I did email some the photos and try to upload them this week. I am very very very very very impressed as I have been and known that area since the 70s and been avid hiker since 2005 to area and Amanda and State Park and all involved did one hell of a classy job because that trail was not an easy area and I noticed all the hard work…all the hardwork…so much hard work… and I can see this being beneficial in the long run…I was very embarrassed by Sonny and walked ahead because he has zero discernment and he needs to watch how he speaks to strangers on the memorial trail…he talks like he writes here. The guy Rick on the trails has hiked it many times before it opened so he is conditioned for it. And Kevin B just said it only takes them at power walk speed 1.5 hours in and 1.5 hours out…ok…taking Sonny to his next designation..
I just want to publicly state how grateful I am to Joy for taking me with her and Sonny on a virtual hike today via her wonderful and informative photographs.
I feel like I was there today and I didn’t even break a sweat. I am duly impressed by the trail and the plaques that have been placed in the granite boulders, the benches, and the overlook. The cross corral…not so much,
I did get a great photo of the specialized cross (I forgot what WTKTT said it is named) that represents where the avowed Buddhist Eric Marsh died, which I do find interesting and insulting at the same time. But I am not one of Marsh’s loved ones so that is not my fight. I can tell you however…that hypocrisy is one of my hot buttons and got me in a lot of trouble throughout my roller coaster career.
Of course without hypocrisy at every level and at every turn, the story of the YHF would be pretty simple and straightforward. NOW…there’s a thought.
you are welcome Gary.
I am trying to make a dropbox now for all to see as well…
Reply to Cheerleader post on November 27, 2016 at 6:13 pm
>> Cheerleader said…
>>
>> in earlier comments, some mention was made of a Sunday afternoon departure
>> of the BLM helicopter, due to increased storm conditions?
Yes. BLM contract helicopter N14HX ( the yellow and white one ) was used on Sunday morning to extract the members of the Lewis DOC crew ( and others ) that had ‘spent the night’ out at the site of the original fire on the ridge… the ‘reverse’ of the way it had ‘inserted’ them out onto the ridge the day before, during the failed “Initial Attack” on Saturday.
All the firefighters it was ‘extracting’ from the western ridge on Sunday morning were flown back to the Helipad at the Yarnell Hill Fire Station.
After that… helicopter N14HX REMAINED in Yarnell for most of Sunday, June 30, 2013, but never had any other ‘assignment’. It was just ‘staged’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Helibase’ up near those circular crop field off Hays Ranch Road, in Peeples Valley, for most of Sunday.
Late in the afternoon on Sunday, after the ‘weather report’ about the approaching thunderstorms, BLM Helicopter N14HX decided to LEAVE the Yarnell area and fly back down south to that BLM Weaver Helibase south of Yarnell.
It is still not known WHO gave the ‘instructions’ to N14HX to ‘depart Yarnell’.
It could have been someone in BLM management *or” it could have actually just been the pilot’s ‘call’ to do so.
The pilot of BLM contract Helicopter N14HX was ( as far as we know ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE, even though this Helicopter played a crucial role in the “Initial Attack” against the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The following ‘Dispatch Log’ entries show that it departed Yarnell at 3:56:41 PM ( due to the approaching weather ), and then it reports it is back ‘on the ground’ at BLM Weaver Helibase 4 minutes later, at 4:00:56 PM…
06/30/2013 15:56:41 ( 3:56:41 PM ) From: 4HX To: DG
Details: Moving from Yarnell to Weaver HB ( Helibase ) due to WX ( Weather ) 5’ete, 2s 50m Fuel +AFF
06/30/2013 16:00:56 ( 4:00:56 PM ) From: 4hx To: DG
Details: otg weaver ( ‘On The Ground’ back at BLM Weaver Helibase )
wwtktt said—After that… helicopter N14HX REMAINED in Yarnell for most of Sunday, June 30, 2013, but never had any other ‘assignment’. It was just ‘staged’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Helibase’ up near those circular crop field off Hays Ranch Road, in Peeples Valley, for most of Sunday.
MY REPLY- chime in Sonny…we saw that helicopter up there more than once on Sunday….as well explain what Howard said too…so how could it been staged there at the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Helibase but be up on the Weavers…what time did his assignment get him staged at the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Helibase’?
Sonny..chances of you seeing this before you get here in a few hours…I haven’t slept and I have had rough health night…waddle waddle…we can do the normal Tuesday routine but remind me to bring something to throw up in and take it slow and easy and no food for me…no eating out just cucumber and watermelon…nobody has to call me for that recipe…
About the copter and fanning–Yes I remember more than once on Sunday–the last time it was fanning the fire and that was when I told you they are doing a controlled burn and the reason it comes to mind.–I believed that what we were seeing involved that. Howard said he saw the same on Sunday but in a different location. Later I was told they were likely dropping off supplies but that was not the case of what we were watching. However, then I was told that they were likely just observing the fire. Well you would think they would be more careful in their observing practices. Keep in mind the fire was in the boulders at that time and below looking like ants were the GMHS men coming up the two track from down below.
Remember, this area of 320 acres had been restricted on June 16, 2013–something we observed after the fire and coming home from the evacuation center at the gym in Prescott where we had stayed some 7 days. I thought it was a joke when Joy showed me the restriction document and the date. I certainly remember telling her it was likely a drunk politician that wrote the date down when it was signed, but she pointed out the seal and its date. So I stood corrected.
So it looks as if perhaps the area was restricted because there was a planned prescribed burn–now called that because they have lost control of too many controlled burns. But that is conjecture, and maybe the document was only made to indicate that the 320 acre area was so densely covered with matted manzanita that it was indeed only an extreme fire hazard area–but I do not understand why only 320 acres were set aside that way on June 16 when all the Yarnell area–east side and west side were extremely volatile with dense brush pretty much surrounding the town. Those are questions only the FS could answer since they were the ones that had put that document on line–or at least someone with access to the document did put it on line.
I was quite surprised when Joy laid out 8 hundred dollar bills and a fifty today at the BLM in Phoenix. That is borrowed money and Joy has put herself in debt–how much it means to her to get an understanding of the Yarnell Debacle. Price was $814.50 in case anyone that is an other wants one. She was classed as an other. These are Freedom of Information Acts but you do not see much free in that.
Joy was also going to get an FOIA started at Surprise on Greenway but they were closed by the time we got by there.
On the way down early, lots of commotion as the roads before daylight were being subjected to an army of police and fire fighers. I suppose they got through the day well enough and I had heard the road would be blocked for some hours so we got out early enough to beat the blockage.
there is incorrections above but Sonny likes to say it like HE wants but reality is I am not in debt over the fire investigation—I have had to sell assets each time I wanted to obtain things and yes I have reached a very high dollar amount for a common civilian in this but at no time do I want a gofund me or any help because God will guide it…I do not need man made suggestions…but I get Sonny…he just wants to ensure it does not ever come from his funds maybe…now he is right about this: “how much it means to her to get an understanding of the Yarnell Debacle.”
Sonny, the debt I am still paying on is my rattlesnake attack…that is a debt and being on the trails at times needing that little extra so I could eat because you like road kill but I not soooo much…
Well joy join 99% of Americans. We do not own anything, but pay goodly sums even for our homes to live in them. Some around here pay 2-7 grand taxes on their homes and these continue to escalate every year. –so that is paying rent to the government to have a place to reside. That was something the forefathers never intended to happen.
Right, I would not pay 800 for an FOIA. I think that should be a duty of the fire fighting community to give these things out freely. To charge exorbitant amounts tells me they do not want you to have an FOIA. What citizen has 800 to put out and even if he got the free FOIA for the 800 what good will it do to go against 150 lawyers that the feds have. If they intend to keep information from you they will in many ways. On top of that they will heavily redact any information that might make them look bad. There were pages of the state FS involvement that were redacted. Something Hillary in her case wished she had redacted. Well she did a lot of redaction by deleting all the emails possible but apparently Russia is leaking the content to Italy and others so much of her data is already out there. It did hurt the country’s security same as unredacted material if it leaks out will hurt the reputation of some of the fellows that had a hand in the debacle that killed the GMHS crew, caused a loss of millions in taxpayer money and a dump of dangerous retardant that has poisoned many in the Yarnell vicinity.
I know I am not politically correct and still call things as I see them and plain Irish is better than the Queen’s English as far as I am concerned.
Joy says God not man guides her life. Well it is always good to have a little guidance here and there but which god does she refer to. Try some of the Ancient Irish Gods and Goddesses. They have been around since the beginning of time and designed our DNA. Some of them flooded the earth at one time getting rid of all mankind but seems we came back and that has been allowed since it is obvious that they do not need to destroy us, we do a damn good job at it ourselves.
With the attitude of the Moslem sects, once they get things set right and enough atom bombs, they will make Nagasaki and Heroshima look like a walk in the park. You might say this is not politically correct, but that is likely because your head has not been watching the news. The only thing these suicide moslems hate is that when their martyrs can only kill a few–they want millions wiped out. So I do not have the minds of the Irish Gods–who knows what the end result will be–but one thing Trump is right about, you do not want a bunch more of those type believers in this country unless you hate America as many of them do. And this last statement–go back and review the film of the cheering muslims when the twin towers came down. They did not give a shit about killing innocent people and even their own it is no big deal. Look at Saddam how he gassed thousands to death.
This will be an ongoing battle, best every American citizen be armed and taught the use of arms. Not just Hillary and the police forces. There will come a time and I think likely not that long off that every citizen will need to defend this country if it is to stand. However, with the new world order crap, you will find that there is great hopes to disarm everyone and herd them into large cities where they can be controlled by a few that consider themselves the elite of the land. They are no more elite than my ass but in their own eyes they think that. Fortunately enough of the citizenry are on to the work to make this into a world communistic order. Get your mark comrade and if you do not have it–face the consequences.
Here is the sad part of this–too many like this way of things. Prisoners once they are indoctrinated and there long enough will actually commit crimes to get back into that system. Only the system outside the walls is becoming so that they will not have to go back in to feel at home. But this is not a tome on freedom. They are the rantings of a fellow that loves freedom but not one to give it up to live in a cage because that is where some feel protected.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 29, 2016 at 1:40 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> MY REPLY- chime in Sonny…
>> we saw that helicopter up there more than once on Sunday
Yes. It took MULTIPLE trips to extract all those men and then to also ( before the last Helitack was extracted ) fly ( perhaps ) a few turnarounds with a that ‘drop line’ to retrieve equipment from the ridge. That’s why at least 1 Helitack ( most likely Nate Peck ) had to ‘remain’ there until the last ‘extraction’ flight… so there could be someone there on the ground to hook up whatever ‘equipment’ was still there that needed to be ‘extracted’ via the ‘drop line’.
You photographed this ‘retrieval of equipment’ taking place that morning, and the one Helitack who was left to do the ‘hook ups’ still remains the most likely candidate for this ‘mystery man’ that you refer to being out on the ridge talking to Eric Marsh.
But when ALL of that ‘extraction’ business was finished… yellow and white BLM contract Helicopter N14HX then flew up to the ‘Helibase’ that had been established for the Yarnell Hill Fire up by those ‘circular crop fields’ in Peeples Valley… and that is when it was just ‘staged’ there for most of the rest of Sunday with not other official ‘assignment’.
The TWO RECON missions were both flown using the blue and white DPS Helicopter Ranger 58, and not the yellow and white BLM contract Helicopter N14HX.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> as well explain what Howard said too…
What did Howard ( William Bennet? ) say about the yellow and white Helicopter N14HX?
I must have missed that.
Circular crop field off hays road—what is this?
Up in Peeples Valley… on the northern side of Hays Ranch Road, where it ‘intersects’ with Highway 89, there were TWO ‘circular’ crop fields.
Click the following ‘Google Maps’ link and you will see them there just to the north of ‘Hays Ranch Road’ and just to the west of Highway 89…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Yarnell,+AZ/@34.2730552,-112.7354081,1532m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80d33194702ce9c5:0x17ac6af154c5c620!8m2!3d34.2216927!4d-112.7474007
That’s where the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Helibase’ was located for most of the day on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
The ‘Horseshoe-shaped’ POND seen at the same ‘Google Maps’ link above that was just EAST of the intersection of Hays Ranch Road and Highway 89 was the primary ‘dip site’ on Sunday for the Helicopters doing ‘bucket work’.
Circular crop field in peeples valley:
Would this have been an area that
Received retardant drop protection when focus of need was shifted to the Yarnell area?
Indirectly… yes.
Even BEFORE 3:50 PM, when Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD his ‘Lead Plane’ ( Bravo 33 with Thomas French, John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross onboard ) to switch their ‘focus’ to Yarnell… the GOAL was to try and STOP the advance of the fire ( north ) right there at the ‘Model Creek Road’ and ‘Hays Ranch Road’ area, to keep the fire OUT of the ‘Model Creek’ and ‘Peeples Valley’ communities.
So you could consider those ‘crop circles ( and, indeed, all those ‘ranches’ there north of Hays Ranch Road and west of Highway 89 to have been ‘targets of value’ worth attempting to protect.
But when the wind shifted ( around 3:40 PM ), the ‘threat’ to Peeples Valley and Model Creek Road ‘mitigated’. Even Darrell Willis testifed as such to ADOSH.
When Air Attack Rory Collins radioed ‘Bravo 33’ at exactly 3:50:08 PM and TOLD them to ‘shift the focus of Air Support’ to the Yarnell side of the fire…. it was because ( at 3:50 PM ) it was now obvious THAT is where the priority for Air Support SHOULD be focused.
But it didn’t happen.
Thomas French ( in Bravo 33 ) did not fly down to the Yarnell side of the fire to even begin evaluating what ‘Air Support’ may or may not have been able to do for another 40 minutes.
But by then it was too late for ‘Air Support’ to really do anything at all except what they ended up attempting to do… drop some retardant in the only ‘clear air’ that was left there on the EAST FLANK of the fire, and on the NORTH side of Yarnell by that ‘U-Store-It’ facility.
wwtktt said: Reply to Cheerleader post on November 27, 2016 at 6:13 pm
>> Cheerleader said…
MY REPLY: it should properly read especially on certain topics that “Cheerleader said for the bleacher people…” because in reality alot of the stuff I have not yet read until I am reading the replies of wwtktt so I was reading it thinking that was not Cheerleader really who thought such but the bleacher people,,,how I wish the whole world could just come to IM as who God made them to be with real full names…sometimes it is unfair to have me post for you and then it comes back because I post for you and it confuses me as I go to read and it was nothing I read yet…than I had to scroll down..any possible way the bleacher folks can just tee it up and batter up and let’s hit some balls and home runs…
If you are now posting things on behalf of someone else ( without even reading the posts first )… and that person / persons wants to be known as “the bleachers’… then just go ahead and make those postings under THAT ‘name’.
I will…good idea
BLEACHERS vs Cheerleader—works for me
wwtktt said: The pilot of BLM contract Helicopter N14HX was ( as far as we know ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE, even though this Helicopter played a crucial role in the “Initial Attack” against the Yarnell Hill Fire.
MY REPLY: this helicopter had a crucial role Sunday…we watched it and so did others—and yet we never saw any interview notes nor has ANY of my foias been acknowledged or fulfilled on aerial areas-
The name of the PILOT of BLM contract Helicopter N14HX has never even been released, or any indication of his actual ‘experience’ fighting wildfires.
If he was some kind of ‘rookie’… then that might explain how he didn’t know the dangers and/or what could happen if he ‘hovered’ DIRECTLY OVER an active fireline…. as he was doing on Saturday when he was delivering the ‘bladder bags’… and that is the moment the fire ‘flared up’ and ‘escaped’ over that two-track road.
**
** DARRELL WILLIS MET ( AND WORKED ) WITH BLM EMPLOYEE BRUCE OLSEN
** WHEN WILLIS FIRST ARRIVED IN YARNELL SATURDAY NIGHT…
From Darrell Willis’ first ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on August 19, 2013, at the point where the ADOSH investigators are asking Willis to describe his ‘arrival’ in Yarnell at 11:00 PM on Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
Willis tells ADOSH that as he first arrived in Yarnell, he had a ‘briefing’ with Arizona Forestry IC Russ Shumate ( on Hays Ranch Road )… but that even at 11:00 PM Saturday night, BLM employee Bruce Olsen was still right there WITH Shumate and participating in that 11:00 PM ‘briefing’ with Willis…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Darrell Willis, SPGS2 at the Yarnell Hill Fire
—————————————————————————————-
92 Q1: Okay. Ah, so you came down that evening ( Saturday evening )?
93
94 A: Mm-hm. ( “Yes” )
95
96 Q1: And, um, did you get an in briefing from Russ ( Shumate ) when you…
97
98 A: Yes.
99
100 Q1: …showed up?
101
102 A: Yes.
103
104 Q1: Describe that in briefing for us if you would.
105
106 A: Um, he had about five – a strike team of engines and he had, um, another
107 gentleman by the name of Bruce Olsen from the, um, the BLM there and, ah,
108 you could see the fire on the mountain. And he said, “We got some structures
109 out here. I don’t know what we’ve got.” He says, “What I really want to know
110 is how far the fire is from those structures on the north end.” Ah, he said, “I’d
111 like you to take this strike team in there and do an assessment and see what
112 you need but I really need to know how far the fire is from the homes.” Well it
113 – actually from the Double Bar A Ranch.
—————————————————————————————
Then… TWO hours later ( at 1:00 AM )… Darrell Willis says ( in his Unit Log ) that he and BLM employee Bruce Olsen were then working ‘together’ out at the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ to assess and ‘plan’ the ‘situation’ there…
From Darrell Willis’ official ‘Unit Log’…
—————————————————————————————-
06/30/2013 – 0100 ( 1:00 AM )
Met with Bruce Olsen and E-58 E-3665 at Double Bar A Ranch, did a walk through of the property. Met with caretaker Larry Kester 928.910.8148 asked for permission to conduct defensible space work on property and set up hose lays. Permission granted. Tasked Engines 58 and 3665 with coming up with a plan and to start working. 7 structures present all are high risk/low probability of success structures but thought we might be able to save some.
06/30/2013 – 0130 ( 1:30 AM )
Bruce Olsen and I traveled down a two track south behind the ranch and determined where fire was above ranch. Active fire behavior witnessed high up on mountain approximately 1.5 miles to the Southwest.
—————————————————————————————-
So… according to Darrell Willis… he was not working ‘alone’ on the evening of June 29, 2013, when he was doing his ‘structure protection evaluation’ in the Peeples Valley area.
He was doing that WITH BLM employee ( and “Fuels Expert” ) Bruce Olsen.
The way Willis tells it… it almost seems like it was actually BLM employee Bruce Olsen himself ( and NOT Willis, or at least not Willis alone ) who made the ‘decision’ that even though the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ had a ‘low probability of success’ as far as defending it went… that they would still go ahead and expend all that time, effort ( and money ) there just to try and save ‘some’ of the structures at the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’.
There are no other references to BLM employee Bruce Olsen in Willis’ Unit Log following those ‘working together’ entries about the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’… but it can be assumed that Bruce Olsen remained in Yarnell ‘helping’ with the ‘planning efforts’ and the ‘decision making’ and the ‘resource ordering’ throughout the night and into Sunday morning.
BLM employee Bruce Olsen has NEVER BEEN INTERVIEWED, even though he was obviously playing a key role in the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ on both Friday AND Saturday.
from the bleachers:
a reply/inquiry from the bleachers to wwtktt:
In Shumate’s interview- right in the beginning of the interview Hicks ask him who the other guy is and he says he is Bruce Ols o n based out of Wickenburg (spelled with an “O” not and “e” so is this 2 different people?)
is the Bruce the fuel specialist – is he the same Bruce in Wickenburg?
Remember we are dealing with the OLSON/OLSEN name…right big G….want clarification…
———————————————————————
This ‘Bruce Olsen’ suffers the same syndrome that all ‘Olsen/Olson’ people do.
Sometimes people spell it ‘Olsen’… sometimes it’s spelled ‘Olson’.
In some of the ADOSH transcripts… the ‘transcriber’ was spelling it BOTH ways even though they were always talking about the same guy ( Bruce Olsen ).
But in this case… it’s always the same guy.
FEDERAL ( BLM ) employee and “Fuels Expert” Bruce Olsen, who also pulls shifts as the BLM ‘Duty Officer’… as he was doing on Friday, June 28, 2013 when lightning struck the Weavers outside of Yarnell.
And yes… on Friday, June 28, 2013, BLM ‘Duty Officer’ Bruce Olsen was, apparently, working out of the ‘Wickenberg’ location and was able to get to Yarnell fairly quickly after the ‘lightning strike’ was first reported.
Right on, Swedes vs Danes. I know all of US PEOPLE look alike to you, but we are very different.
Joy tried to get FOIA on the pilot but never got a reply. You can bet the pilot was not alone and he would have had one of the bosses along observing the sitution from the air. I can not imagine a pilot by himself observing or if he was some one below seeing him fan the fire should have instructed him to be sure to not fan the fire.
Wasn’t Musser floating around up there in a yellow and white copter?
I think the correct name would Be Bruce Olsen on this one. Looks like Gary Olson knows better and is miles ahead on the fire fighting know how.
We are on a hike to see the honorary trail that marks the escape route of the Yarnell Hikers and Arizona’s honor to the young men killed by Marsh, Steed and other antonymous participants involved in their deaths. How they can put up a plaque of a man that risked his young men’s lives so foolishly and needlessy at the beginning of the trial might be appropriate. After all, this marks the worse tragedy in Arizona’s fire fighting history==all was completely avoidable. It also marks one of wild land fire fighting histories of tragedy cover up and not exposing those responsible for those deaths.
I hope they add a sign that the FS got fined the max by ADOSH and name the investigators in that investigation as heroes willing to tell the truth. Special recognition to Bruce Hanna and Bret Steurer and public service awards to those men. They want to correct the bad situations that killed the wild land fire fighters of GMHS crew.
**
** WHEN DID BLM EMPLOYEES DEAN FERNANDEZ AND BRUCE OLSEN
** LEAVE THE YARNELL HILL FIRE?
Trying to keep up with all the ‘questions’ being asked below.
Here are some answers to SOME of those questions.
Reply to Cheerleader post on November 28, 2016 at 6:06 pm
>> Cheerleader said…
>>
>> AT SOME POINT, PROBABLY, BEFORE NOON… “because all of us had been
>> running for 30 hours” Russ Shumate removes himself from the action (unk exact time).
Russ Shumate left Yarnell as soon as the Sunday morning briefing at the Model Creek Elementary School had concluded, and the official ‘transfer of authority’ took place with IC Russ Shumate ‘handing the fire over’ to IC Roy Hall and his Type 2 SHORT team at exactly 10:21 AM that Sunday morning.
>> Cheerleader also said…
>>
>> … Line2095A: “So I left the fire scene, um, and went home and went to bed.”
That’s correct. As soon as IC Russ Shumate had ‘handed over’ the fire to IC Roy Hall at 10:21 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013, he ( Shumate ) left Yarnell and ‘went home and went to bed’ back in Prescott. Shumate had been ‘up’ ( awake ) and running his “Initial Attack’ on the Yarnell Hill Fire since 5:00 AM Saturday morning.
>> Cheerleader also asked…
>>
>> WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO BRUCE OLSON & DEAN FERNANDEZ…
>> HAVE THEY ALSO LEFT THE AREA ???
** DEAN FERNANDEZ
Just like Russ Shumate… BLM IC Dean Fernandez left Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013, shortly after the conclusion of the ‘briefing’ at the Model Creek Elementary School ICP and the official ‘transfer of command’ that took place at exactly 10:21 AM.
From Dean Fernandez’s SAIT interview notes…
—————————————————————————————————
SAIT Interview with BLM IC Dean Fernandez
Interviewed by Jim ( Karels ) and Mike ( Dudley ), 07/14/2013
ICT3 qual’d brought in as a Rep for BLM because the fire was a
threat to BLM land as a T3 IC, Engine Captain in Phx/BLM
Dean is AA on Reinartz T1 Team
Saturday, June 29, 2013
– Went to the ( Yarnell ) fire station Saturday morning also because there was a BLM threat.
– Saturday morning went to Weaver Mtn Helibase and then went ( to Yarnell ) in the helo ( N14HX ) and scouted the fire, it looked good, innocent. They landed and picked people up and took the crew members out
– Russ the IC said go down there and get 6 people and fly them to the top. SEATS were dropping on top but it didn’t look to be boxed in completely and rough terrain. Dean ( Fernandez ) was acting as a Rep and suggested several times to get a pumpkin set up, but it wasn’t happening</b. Later on the fire picked up which was a surprise. It jumped the line, they ordered SEATS the Moki helicopter crew couldn’t catch it the night before. Working the SEATS with Bruce Olsen.
Do you want me to take over the fire? Dean ( Fernandez ) asked Russ ( Shumate )
Russ replied, “Am I doing something wrong? No, I just wanted to make sure.”
Sunday, June 30, 2013
– 06/30 around 0800-0900 he met at the new ICP at the school for the big briefing. The fire has been active through the night and mentioned the fire behavior he had observed. Fuel type a local had mentioned to Dean that this place hasn’t burned since 1967.
– After that ( the briefing ) he ( Fernandez ) said his good byes.
—————————————————————————————————
Dispatch logs confirm what Fernandez told the SAIT about when he left Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
It was just shortly after the conclusion of the large ‘briefing’ that was held up at the Model Creek Elementary School ICP on Sunday morning.
Dispatch logs show Fernandez reporting that he was ‘released’ from the Yarnell Hill Fire at 10:03:43 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and he was then ‘enroute home’.
Dispatch logs also show Fernandez reporting he was “Back in Quarters” ( Home ) at 11:30:17 AM on Sunday morning.
** THE MYSTERIOUS BRUCE OLSEN
BLM employee ( and “Fuels Expert” and sometimes “Duty Officer” ) Bruce Olsen never submitted any kind of official ‘Unit Log’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire and ( as far as we know ) has never been interviewed by ANYONE.
So it is not known exactly WHEN BLM employee Bruce Olsen ‘left’ Yarnell on Sunday.
It MAY have been at the same time his fellow BLM employee Dean Fernandez did ( right after the ‘transfer of command at 10:21 AM Sunday morning )… but he also might have STAYED in Yarnell for some amount of additional time on Sunday. There actually is no real ‘evidence’ that he was still there in Yarnell on Sunday afternoon… and no ‘testimony’ from anyone that mentions interacting with him in any way on Sunday afternoon.
All that is known about the mysterious ‘Bruce Olsen’ is what can be ‘gleaned’ from other interviews and people talking ‘about’ his involvement with the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Such as…
1. He was, in fact, the BLM ‘Duty Officer’ that was ‘on call’ on the afternoon of Friday, June 28, 2013, and when the initial Yarnell Hill Fire ‘lightning strike’ was first reported.
2. He did, in fact, respond to ‘Yarnell’ on Friday afternoon from where he was stationed at the BLM Weaver Helibase not too far south of Yarnell.
3. He was, in fact, physically THERE in Yarnell on Friday evening BEFORE Arizona Forestry ‘Duty Officer’ Russ Shumate himself ‘arrived’ in Yarnell. It is not known EXACTLY when BLM “Duty Officer” Bruce Olsen ‘arrived’ in Yarnell that Friday. All we know is that he WAS ‘already there’ ( in Yarnell ) before Arizona Forestry “Duty Officer” Russ Shumate himself ‘arrived’ in Yarnell between 7:19 and 7:30 PM.
4. He did, in fact, MEET with Arizona Forestry’s ‘Duty Officer’ Russ Shumate when Shumate finally arrived in Yarnell sometime between 7:19 PM and 7:30 PM. Olsen and Shumate first ‘met up’ at the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’ to discuss the situation and develop their ‘plan of action’ for the NEXT day ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 ), since they were both in agreement that no “Initial Attack” was going to take place THAT night ( Friday night ).
4. He was, in fact, the one who helped Russ Shumate with his decision making on Friday night, and helped arrange for BLM to bring resources to Yarnell the following morning, Saturday, June 29, 2013. The ‘plan’ that Bruce Olsen and Russ Shumate developed for Saturday’s “Initial Attack” was that Shumate and Arizona Forestry would bring TWO DOC ‘Prison’ hand crews ( Lewis and Yuma ) to Yarnell and try to arrange for some ‘Air Attack’ and other ‘Air Support’, and BLM would bring some Type 6 Engines and the BLM contract Helicopter N14HX.
5. Bruce Olsen was, in fact, physically present in Yarnell all day ( and night ) on Saturday, June 29, 2013, and was ‘helping’ with the “Initial Attack” decision making, even though BLM IC Dean Fernandez had also ‘arrived’ in Yarnell Saturday morning onboard yellow/white BLM Helicopter N14HX and was then ‘co-managing’ the fire with Arizona Forestry’s Russ Shumate.
6. Bruce Olsen was ( according to Russ Shumate ) the one who actually CHOSE the ‘locations’ for the two ‘pumpkins’ that would eventually be ‘set up’ in Yarnell… but only AFTER the fire had ‘escaped’ the ‘initial attack’ up on the ridge. BLM IC Dean Fernandez had been ‘urging’ Arizona Forestry IC Russ Shumate to get those ‘pumpkins’ set up all day Saturday… but Shumate ignored that ‘advice’ and only turned to them as an option AFTER the fire had jumped the two-track road and ‘escaped’ in the later afternoon. One ‘pumpkin’ location chosen by BLM employee ( and “Fuels Expert” ) Bruce Olsen was just to the east of Highway 89 and just to the south of the Ranch House Restaurant. The other ‘pumpkin’ location chosen by Bruce Olsen was right smack in the middle of the Boulder Springs Ranch compound.
7. Bruce Olsen WAS still in Yarnell at least as late as ‘midnight’ on Saturday, June 30, 2013, and SPGS2 Darrell Willis told ADOSH that it was Bruce Olsen himself who he ( Willis ) was ‘working with’ when he arrived in Yarnell late Saturday night and was attempting to just ‘figure out’ what resources might be needed for the next day… Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But when BLM employee Bruce Olsen finally ‘left’ Yarnell ( after having been the initial BLM responder on Friday… and then present for the ‘Initial Attack’ all day and night Saturday ) remains a mystery.
He is one of the most important persons who was helping to ‘manage’ the Yarnell Hill Fire for ALL of both ‘Friday’ and ‘Saturday’ who has ( apparently ) NEVER BEEN INTERVIEWED.
What makes BLM employee Bruce Olsen even MORE ‘important’ to the ‘Story of the Yarnell Hill Fire’ is that he is, in fact, the very same person who developed the “Fuels Reduction Plan” for the Yarnell Hill Fire Department which Yarnell Hill Fire Department Chief Jim Koile then never ‘implemented’ because Koile said they could ‘never get it together and actually do it’.
So if anyone knew the ‘situation’ in Yarnell ( and what to do about )… it was BLM employee ( and “Fuels Expert” ) Bruce Olsen.
Followup…
** BLM EMPLOYEE AND ‘FUELS EXPERT’ BRUCE OLSEN IS THE ONE WHO
** HELPED PREPARE THE ‘FUELS REDUCTION’ PLAN FOR YARNELL
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Brush never cleared from Yarnell homes
Plan to remove overgrowth was halted last year
Published: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:13 AM
By: By Sean Holstege and Eddi Trevizo
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130928yarnell-homes-brush-overgrowth.html
From that article…
—————————————————————————
As flames from a wildfire bore down the hill toward Yarnell on June 30, many of the homes there may already have been doomed.
Late the night before, a fire commander responsible for protecting structures looked at the heavy brush and concluded that many homes couldn’t be defended, according to an investigative report issued Saturday by the Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Team.
“He (the commander) drives the roads to learn the town, heading into the hills on backcountry roads, tying in with personnel on the fire, and looking for strategic options for protecting Yarnell. He sees overgrown yards and indefensible houses, and he recognizes there are limited options for a protection strategy,” the report said, describing a tour at 10:40 p.m. on Saturday, June 29.
The 116-page report does not assign blame for the destruction of more than 100 homes in the communities of Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
But in summer 2012, the Yarnell Fire Department had in hand a $15,000 grant to clear vegetation around homes in town. The money was never used, The Arizona Republic has learned, and the grant lapsed.
Yarnell Fire Chief Jim Koile told the fire district board that summer that the money had to be spent by fall. Everything looked ready to go.
Brandon Eubanks was a Yarnell fire captain at the time. He had overseen the preparation to clear the brush. He enlisted BRUCE OLSEN, a specialist with the U.S. Bureau of Land Management.
“I got hold of him and asked: What are the chances of you coming here? Yarnell is a tinderbox,” Eubanks said. “Back then we saw this coming. If you are a firefighter and you drive though Yarnell, red flags are going up.”
BRUCE OLSEN was a big help. He assisted the small department in generating fuel maps, matching up satellite imagery and persuading property owners to let teams on their land. About 50 homeowners had given their blessing, Eubanks said.
Then, suddenly, Koile killed the project, saying there weren’t enough volunteers to see it through, according to Eubanks, who said he quit over the matter.
“He didn’t know anything that we were doing or didn’t care,” Eubanks said.
BRUCE OLSEN’S boss, BLM fire management officer Brian Achziger, declined to discuss Eubanks’ claims, but did confirm that the agency had worked well with Yarnell in the past and had helped clear 375 acres in previous years.
Several former Yarnell Fire Department employees and volunteers said brush was cleared routinely under the previous chief, Peter Andersen.
A post-fire report showed that only 63 homes in the Yarnell Hill Fire burn zone had been properly protected — but at least 95 percent of those had survived.
Koile did not respond to a request for comment about Saturday’s report. However, in a recent interview, he said he could not recall how much land was cleared in each of the years he was chief, or where the priority target areas were, but said “it was a pretty heavy fuel load.”
So why did the 2012 grant lapse? “We could never get it together,” he said.
Koile blamed turnover and volunteers dropping the ball.
“In retrospect, there is always room to do more,” Koile said. “This is a poor community with a poor budget.”
The Yarnell Fire District spent a total of $213,000 in the fiscal year that ended on June 30 as flames raced through the town, The Republic learned from a public-records request.
The amount budgeted for fire prevention: zero.
** Comments ( 1 )
Charles Kristensen · Chief Cook & Bottle Washer at Self-Employed
Wow. This is from a part-time out-of-town chief who has been staffing the department of out-of-town temps who have been receiving substandard pay, benefits and training, while belittling, abusing and chasing away qualified locals with years of experience He neglects then destroys CERT and the Auxiliary and plots for months to disbands local dispatch. The chief assigned the urban interface/fuels management program to one of the out-of-town temps who did his best to work with BLM and State Land only to learn that the chief wasn’t interested in continuing the collaboration.
Then the chief has the gall to blame the failure on the high turnover, local volunteers who would not do his job and/or could not tolerate conditions at the fire department and appears to accuse the board (which has been rubber-stamping his policies and recommendations) of not funding his non-existent efforts to promote and develop defensible spaces.
Amazing.
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Was a prescribed burn planned in the Yarnell area prior to or at about the same time as the Yarnell Fire?
That is a good Question Dianne. One would think so since the document we saw restricted the same 320 acres as extreme fire danger two weeks before the Yarnell Fire started by lightening strike. Helms cleaned defensible space about that time. Whether he was either psychic or perhaps had foreknowledge of a burn. We did watch copters as did others fan the fire–though this is attributed to observations of the fire. Maybe Joy;s $814. 50 freedom of information paper will shed some light whether there were intentions to burn the area out. although that would be on state FS records if intentions were to prescribe burn. If so, nature did the job for them.
All sorts of rumors around Yarnell. Bill was angry about the cost of the state park thing. He stated it actually started on Federal lands and the Feds told the State not to do anything toward putting it out. Where he got his information he would not say–but if you look at the map, it did start on state lands, not federal. Only 3% of the burn was on federal lands according to a professional report by Morrison and Wooten–32 page document that is kept in the Yarnell library by two PhD fire professionals i think out of a Fire oriented University in Washington. I may re read that document since they had so much information including the fact that these types fires in manzanita after a ten year drought such as Yanell was under, burn with the release of energy of an Heroshima type A-bomb every 15 minutes. Theirs is an all scientific study of the fire.
We do know only so far that BLM men did show up at the fire–one was witnessed in the People’s Valley area barking out orders. What they would have been is not known–the witness was gagged by order.
Reply to Charlie post on December 1, 2016 at 8:25 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Maybe Joy;s $814. 50 freedom of information paper will
>> shed some light whether there were intentions to burn the
>> area out. although that would be on state FS records if
>> intentions were to prescribe burn.
Given the nature of that ‘part of the world’… and the absolute ‘patchwork quilt’ arrangement of both Arizona State Trust Land AND BLM land side-by-side like a ‘checkerboard’… if there WERE any actual ‘plans’ for a ‘prescribed burn’ in that area then BLM surely had been ‘informed’ it was going to be taking place… if not actually directly involved in any ‘planned burnouts’ in that area.
**
** PHOTOS OF ‘MEMORIAL PLAQUES’ BEING INSTALLED AT THE NEW
** ARIZONA STATE PARK… JUST 8 DAYS AGO.
Just 8 days ago, on November 16, 2016, Arizona Republic reporter Mark Henle was allowed to ‘accompany’ the work crew that was sent out to install the ‘memorial plaques’ onto rocks at the soon-to-be-open-to-the-public ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’.
Apparently… even just 8 days ago… they have been frantically trying to finish ‘installing’ all the promised ‘design features’ like ‘memorial plaques’ and ‘information signs’ out there on that 15-foot-wide ‘leased’ right-of-way across Arizona State Trust land that leads to the actual ‘Park’ itself.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
The creation of Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park
Published: 1 day ago – By Mark Henle
http://www.azcentral.com/picture-gallery/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/11/25/the-creation-of-granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park/94426976/
There are 19 photos on this page, taken by Mark Henle as he accompanied the work crews 8 days ago.
Photos show the ‘actual’ installation of the laser-engraved ‘memorial plaques’ for GM Hotshots Wade Parker, Dustin Deford, Travis Carter and Andrew Ashcraft.
Those ‘memorial plaques’ are simply being ‘screwed to rocks’ at various points ( every 600 feet or so? ) along the 15-foot-wide leased right of way across Arizona State Trust Land that leads to the actual State Park land itself.
Photo 9, taken with a ZOOM LENS from the ‘Observation Deck’, shows the deployment site down below and also shows clearly that the original ‘flagpole’ that was installed shortly after the tragedy has NOT been ‘moved’.
It is still right where it was originally installed, in the ‘parking area’ at the end of the ‘dozer push’ that was done the night of the tragedy to help retrieve the 19 bodies from the deployment site.
That photo ( number 9 of 19 photos ) clearly shows there is now a ‘footpath’ that has been created from the deployment site area itself over to that original flagpole installation site… and it also shows the remnants ( still visible and usable ) of that original ‘dozer push’ that was used to help remove the 19 bodies on the morning of July 1, 2013.
Other photos show that even as of just 8 days ago ( on November 16, 2016 ) other members of that ‘American Conservation Experience’ ( ACE ) group were still there and still frantically trying to ‘finish’ the path down from the ‘Observation Deck’ to the original deployment site area.
Photo 14 says that the ‘Park Ranger’ who has now ( apparently ) been hired for this ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ is named “Joel Gonzalez”.
Photo 15 is a close-up of the metal ‘Christian Cross’ marking the place where GM Hotshot Garret Zuppiger deployed his fire shelter.
Photo 17 shows that the ‘protective wrapping’ on the metal ‘purple ribbons’ permanently attached to the lobster-cages-filled-with rocks that surround the site has now been removed.
Photo 18 also now shows that some other kind of LARGE stand-alone ‘Christian Cross’ has been permanently installed at this new public State Park, on some boulders near the original deployment site. It appears to have been ‘carved’ from either stone or metal… and has been ( permanently ) installed on some ‘boulders’ near the site.
Photo 19 shows a closeup of the original ‘flagpole’ which remains there at this new Arizona PUBLIC State Park… but MINUS the ‘Arizona State Flag’ as was originally flown on that pole along with the U.S. flag.
Now… the only FLAG flying on this flagpole at this Arizona State PUBLIC park ( paid for by Arizona taxpayers ) is the U.S. flag.
Correction for above… it is now TEN ( 10 ) days since Arizona Republic reporter Mark Henle was allowed to accompany the work crews that were installing GM Hotshot memorial plaques at the new Arizona State park, on November 16, 2016 ( and not just 8 days as I said above ).
I ‘typed’ that copy above 2 days ago ( when it really was just 8 days )… but forgot to post it until today.
Followup…
Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL ) reported Mark Henle also shot a VIDEO on November 16, 2016, when he was allowed to go along with ‘work crews’ carrying and installing ‘memorial plaques’ and ‘signage’ for the new PUBLIC ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’.
That VIDEO is here…
http://www.azcentral.com/videos/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/11/25/-creation-granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park/94428030/
The video is only 1 minute and 11 seconds long.
Here is a full ‘transcript’ of the two people heard talking to the camera during this video…
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Bryan Wright, American Conservation Experience ( ACE ) Crew Leader:
You know… we are building a State Park… uh… which is an incredible experience alone… but… to know the history… or the meaning behind the State Park is… uh… really a… grounding? It gives you some foundation from where you can work from… uhm… it’s very motivating to know that you’re doing something that is… like… helping to commemorate people’s lives. That’s a… uh… that’s a good feeling.
Brian Rothlisberger, Florence ( Prison ) Wildland Fire Crew:
It is brotherhood. As we work together on the fires a lot of the times we run into each other… and we’re there to support each other… and to have a common goal… uh… in providing safety to the public.
Bryan Wright, American Conservation Experience ( ACE ) Crew Leader:
It’s TOUGH ( the hike ). That’s a HIGH CLIMB. The elevation gain is pretty considerable… uh… if you’re not used to hiking… uhm… but it… at the same time… it’s beautiful… so I would encourage people to take the time with it. There are benches the whole way through. So every bench that you see you should take the time to sit down and… uh… maybe think about the reason the State Park is here in the first place… and… uh… enjoy the sights because it’s… it’s a breathtaking view from each one of those benches. It gets HOT, too… so bring a lotta water.
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At +54 seconds into this video… the camera person filmed two of the work crew members that were there that day ( 10 days ago, on November 16, 2016 ) carrying TWO large, rectangular metal ‘informational’ signs ( Apparently made of aluminum sheet metal about 1/4 inch thick but still light enough for one person to carry each of the 2 signs ).
These would appear to be the TWO ‘informational’ signs that were to be installed at the ‘Observation Deck’.
The camera doesn’t get close enough to read the actual text… but one of them appears to have a ‘panoramic color photo’ engraved at the top of it which appears to resemble the ‘view’ that will be seen from the Observation Deck itself.
There are paragraphs of ‘text’ under this engraved ‘photo’, which will then presumably be pointing out ‘objects’ seen in the ‘view’ itself such as the deployment site below, and both the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and the towns of ‘Glen Ilah’ and ‘Yarnell’ seen in the distance.
Still no word yet on what any of this ‘signage’ actually SAYS about what really happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
SIDENOTE: FWIW… the subtitle that appears in the video above just says that Brian Rothlisberger, is from the Florence ( Prison ) Wildland Fire Crew… but one of the ‘still photos’ at the other link above refers to him as ‘Officer Rothlisberger‘.
That means Rothlisberger is NOT just an ‘inmate crew member’ of the Florence DOC Wildland Crew. He is one of the persons who WORKS for the State of Arizona and runs/manages that ‘Florence’ prison crew.
And the beat goes on…
Here is Prescott eNews also ‘announcing’ that the new PUBLIC ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ will NOT be open to the public until November 30, 2016… the day AFTER the ‘private’ dedication of this ‘public’ park….
…but get a load of one of the ‘comments’ made so far.
Apparently ( for some people )… it’s still the fault of the people of Yarnell that 19 Hotshots ignored all the established rules of their profession and marched right down into a blind box canyon full of explosive, unburned fuel, with no lookout… at the height of the burn cycle and less than 1;/2 mile from a dynamic, wind driven wildfire.
Prescott eNews
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Opens to Public Nov. 30
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/28810-granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park-opens-to-public-nov-30
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Comment by: Pamela Mills Knudsen – 19 November 2016 09:44
Definitely will go there. Just wish the folks in Yarnell would honor all who serve to protect by creating defensible space throughout their community. Otherwise, no fire personnel should try to protect them in the future. Some work has been done, but not nearly enough.
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The motives of the crew was misguided to say the least, but I think there is a lot of truth in the concept the crew did die trying to reach Yarnell to help save it. What am I missing in what you think?
I think that is the exact reason they couldn’t wait for the fire storm to pass before strolling into town and that is because that would have been too late so they had to try and beat it to town, or at least that is what Marsh thought.
Don’t you think the residents of Yarnell have any responsibility in the deaths of the crew…at least as a contributing factor?
My initial reaction-
Absolutely not Big G.
I am working on several answers- and taking your statement under consideration.
It should of been handled first two days… end of story.
If you go from Friday to Saturday that weekend—and the tactics and actions that did in fact happen but each day each hour yet some data lay to the public as missing elements—but what was reported I still absolutely not…these homeowners some with defensible space and some not DID NOT at any time become a contributing factor…they were a contributing factor only and so far as they trusted their fire dept and YCSO and the county— I now say question authority— they TRUSTED these entities and we pay for these entities to do their job right…
First off there is many of houses that are so old in Yarnell that would never be protected by structural firefighters never the less some wildland hotshots tied to a city that crew was not to work but then came on board and climbed that Weavers in that heat and then protect old homes???—that I am not buying that line Big G; maybe the Helms and the Shrine Youth Camp area to protect or Chamber of Commerce Member/GMHS Memorial Park Board Member/YHRG president Chuck Tidey’s place or helicopter med fella Phil Snyder- than yes…
Think of this—say I have a campfire on my land and I throw some accelerates in the campfire to keep it going because I think I know fires like the back of my hand (lived it/loved it) and the fire is fierce in heat and blaze and its doing what I need it to do…I created a 2 way not 4 way flank so the fire “could” escape my campfire area if something happened say like I make a east/west area to be open even though weather conditions and I know the movement of the west wind in that spot on my land…and say woosh the wind changes and it extends that fire to other properties DUE TO FLYING EMBERS not the direct path of the original or any other fires JUST FLYING EMBERS taking lives and properties and pets out—would I be able to use that as my stance or would I be accountable…would I be charged for all those losses…and could I say because those lives were not even suppose to work that day I am not responsible and because these other land owners had what I would say was not defensible space and just group them all like they all were guilty of such even though that IS NOT FACTS but eases my mind to shift blame out—can I just shift the responsibility and say those were contributing factors that led MY OWN CAMPFIRE to do what it did because I added accelerates and I knew weather behaviors…I just do not comprehend your way of thinking…if my campfire got out of hand I am responsible to what MY FIRE did…not the weather because I know I could of flanked it in a way no matter the weather it would not spread…there was too wide of an area spread open for the fire to move as it did…plus there is only speculation data and private not yet public speculations of not reported operations of other small tiny fires not seen on any kind of images because they began just too tiny to catch…
I cannot tell you HOW MANY times I have seen firefighters sit in front of a home and I question how come they are not protecting that structure and they state we just have to let it burn and keep it to contained to just that property full know well knowing the people are on vacation and they cannot even get the folks pets as it is lightly a burning and not even full blown on fire—????
SO how come the actions of the state and its contributing entities that weekend are not having to own up for their actions…yet they lay blame that the fire that they flanked the way they did and YES the wind had its changes but we have met enough people who were on the fire and the reported data is not all the data..and I have so many foias to try and get the person to have to be forcefully come forward minus the court room setting…
BLEACHERS beg your indulgence…here it goes for them (I copy and paste their inquiries below and I have not read it but just posted it—I will read it later; I did barely skim it)
WTKTT says @ 23 Nov, 1:35 pm…. “There were NO PLANS (on Saturday) for any ‘burnout operations’… ”
THERE, VERY WELL, MAY HAVE BEEN NO “PLANS” in the traditional and/or “required documentation” sense; but it was NOT for lack of paper or computer files and/or AWARENESS that such WAS A REQUIREMENT? From the ADOSH Shumate Interview 8-15-13. pdf? dl=0…p31, Line1373A: “We were working very closely together. And we were very – all the plans we – we, that were created were created joint – well created in a manner that we were consulting with each other…” p32. Line1381Q2: “Yeah. Did y-uh, in terms of your planning, did you all have a written, uh, IAP at this time or was it all still? Line1384 A: “No, it was all still legal pad and notebooks… we did not plan on creating a written IAP.” …
1.) What counts as a “plan”?
2.) What does the official narrative accept as descriptive of fire activity levels, present on the morning of 29Jun2013?
3.) What SHOULD one HAVE expected WFF’s to be able to “confront and extinguish” under such conditions as existed on the mornings of 29&30 June 2013?
4.) What is “creep” and HOW DID THE SAME TRANSITION into such flaming front as the combination of DOC-WFF’s and BLM-Helitack-TEAM were unable to contain and suppress, as in what happened to facilitate “the fire escaped the initial attack”?
5.) What does the official narrative accept as descriptive of fire activity levels, present on the 2nd “morning-of-stillness” (30Jun2013); very specifically, what happened to change such low levels of fire activity and intensity on 30 June into such “uncontrollable circumstances” as in… “very little activity until the spot fire, then phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill runs simultaneously”? AND, FURTHERMORE… to raise reasonable circumspect as to where “plans and intentions” might cross-over into the “don’t-go-there-land” of SMALL FIRE ENCOURAGEMENT, leading to employment of ever larger fire fighting forces and attendant costs of suppression, subsequent rehabilitation and claims of liability… due local and regional residents. AND… p43, Line1883Q2: “Okay, and did you have a map up that showed the area or anything?” Line1885A: “No. No, we didn’t have any capabilities to produce maps.”
WITH REGARDS TO AN EARLIER QUESTION… re: Bruce Olson and “when, exactly” he first arrived in Yarnell… did Dean Fernandez work out of the same office and does either “outrank” the other… by what means and when did Fernandez, first, arrive…and where had they based themselves, prior to the establishment of the Model Creek School ICP… did either and/or both BLM representatives remain in Yarnell, throughout the duration of the entire YHF (in earlier comments, some mention was made of a Sunday afternoon departure of the BLM helicopter, due to increased storm conditions)? From the Fernandez photos and General Summary narrative attached to the ADOSH report, “sometime after 7:00 and prior to 11:00″ he takes a morning flight (Saturday) to update the situation and heads, directly, to the “fire origin” (one photo might, even, have been taken “on the ground, outside of the cockpit”). AT THIS POINT… not much of a threatening fire situation seems to be going on at all; which by the way, certainly seems to match the verbal description Shumate provides in Line1023A: “Uh, felt that that was an adequate response to that no smokes showing… 2 acres and on top.”
———————————————————–
WHO OR WHAT ARE THESE “WATCHERS” to IM…
———————————————————–
It is surely been a busy political week for me but not a photo-op like you will see in Yarnell Tuesday November 29th 2016. Mine was serious business on both fires and the now alleged arsonist for Tenderfoot has the data on the person to go take care of his own— but there was no way I could not keep that kind of serious data to myself…
If YFD does not comply by January 10th 2017 and I am giving them plenty of extensions because the FOIA is passed the deadline allowed…but they have that much time as well as YHRG and Peeples Valley Fire Dept—I am allowing the Holidays to pass by with quietness but it will not be quiet come January 10th 2017 and I will go to the next step- I was told by Chief Heckman he will get around to it when he gets around to it because I am not at all a priority to him even though I told him state laws he replied don’t tell me the law; I have a lawyer- Well I said that is all fine and dandy but June 2016 to now is really way pass the foia being fulfilled by legal deadline…duh…Well I popped on for the BLEACHER folks and below is their inquiries
Sonny:
Get your guitar out- I am thinking we got a one hit wonder—maybe get a second round of the label others gave us “15 minutes of fame”; cough…
j.o.k.e. they label me such way…duh…
“BLAMELESS”
Oh I’m blameless, blameless as a man can be…
(knock off of Garth’s version)…
my new song on my sky’s the limit for portability…lightweight, durable, easy to play (and tune) Martin backpack guitar (Sonny 11:20pm 12-30-15 gifted it to me to encourage music in my soul)…
Name of my song is kwē ˈbōnō not Shameless.
the lyrics keep going—>
Drinks and Promotions….all around…for the blameless… etc…
Woodsman will be incorporated into this song for his loyalty to the pureness of topic/comments of money, money, money and how this has laid the red carpet out….The AFTERMATH and associated long-term COSTS and DAMAGES are considerations, which are related to many another wildfire and, as such, have remained “untouchable” topics of concern for far too long !
from the bleachers again:
(copy/paste)—>
GARY… Do you, really, believe “the fire escaped and slopped over” the two-track… that 6×WFF and l×Helitack could NOT hold a ” creeping fire” from crossing over an approximately 8’wide-cleared-trail for an “active creeper length” of, perhaps, 125′? What was the name of the “most famous hotshot superintendent” (did you help investigate and put him in jail)… how did he take a spent lightning-ignited fire and liven it up, again?
BLEACHERS INQUIRIES—-not sure if I did not do it right or I missed information but I will copy and paste that came to me “corrected copy” so this was what I got:
copy/paste:
TheBLEACHERS beg your indulgence (extreme total comment length intended to cover multiple variations)>>> WTKTT says @ 23 Nov, 1:35 pm…. “There were NO PLANS (on Saturday) for any ‘burnout operations’… “THERE, VERY WELL, MAY HAVE BEEN NO “PLANS” in the traditional and/or “required documentation” sense; but it was NOT for lack of paper or computer files and/or AWARENESS that such WAS A REQUIREMENT? From the ADOSH Shumate Interview 8-15-13. pdf? dl=0…p31, Line1373A: “We were working very closely together. And we were very – all the plans we – we, that were created were created joint – well created in a manner that we were consulting with each other…” p32. Line1381Q2: “Yeah. Did y-uh, in terms of your planning, did you all have a written, uh, IAP at this time or was it all still? Line1384 A: “No, it was all still legal pad and notebooks… we did not plan on creating a written IAP.”
……………………………………….
THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS AND, SOMEWHAT REDUNDANT, QUESTIONS ARE INTENDED TO “HELP” AND MORE CLEARLY DEFINE… 1.) What counts as a “plan”? 2.) What does the official narrative accept as descriptive of fire activity levels, present on the morning of 29Jun2013? 3.) What SHOULD one HAVE expected WFF’s to be able to “confront and extinguish” under such conditions as existed on the mornings of 29&30 June 2013? 4.) What is “creep” and HOW DID THE SAME TRANSITION into such flaming front as the combination of DOC-WFF’s and BLM-Helitack-TEAM were unable to contain and suppress, as in what happened to facilitate “the fire escaped the initial attack”? 5.) What does the official narrative accept as descriptive of fire activity levels, present on the 2nd “morning-of-stillness” (30Jun2013); very specifically, what happened to change such low levels of fire activity and intensity on 30 June into such “uncontrollable circumstances” as in… “very little activity until the spot fire, then phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill runs simultaneously”? AND, FURTHERMORE… to raise reasonable circumspect as to where “plans and intentions” might cross-over into the “don’t-go-there-land” of SMALL FIRE ENCOURAGEMENT, leading to employment of ever larger fire fighting forces and attendant costs of suppression, subsequent rehabilitation and claims of liability… due local and regional residents. After all, even at this late date, and based upon recent WTKTT&GARY commentary (referencing such instances as evoke descriptions of “staggering-liar-coverup”)… “CUI BONO” in terms of MONEY (seemingly, only touched upon by WOODSMAN from time to time), as well, TheAFTERMATH and associated long-term COSTS and DAMAGES are considerations, which are related to many another wildfire and, as such, have remained “untouchable” topics of concern for far too long.
ND… p43, Line1883Q2: “Okay, and did you have a map up that showed the area or anything?” Line1885A: “No. No, we didn’t have any capabilities to produce maps.” WITH REGARDS TO AN EARLIER QUESTION… re: Bruce Olson and “when, exactly” he first arrived in Yarnell… did Dean Fernandez work out of the same office and does either “outrank” the other… by what means and when did Fernandez, first, arrive…and where had they based themselves, prior to the establishment of the Model Creek School ICP… did either and/or both BLM representatives remain in Yarnell, throughout the duration of the entire YHF (in earlier comments, some mention was made of a Sunday afternoon departure of the BLM helicopter, due to increased storm conditions)? From the Fernandez photos and General Summary narrative attached to the ADOSH report, “sometime after 7:00 and prior to 11:00″ he takes a morning flight (Saturday) to update the situation and heads, directly, to the “fire origin” (one photo might, even, have been taken “on the ground, outside of the cockpit”). AT THIS POINT… not much of a threatening fire situation seems to be going on at all; which by the way, certainly seems to match the verbal description Shumate provides in Line1023A: “Uh, felt that that was an adequate response to that no smokes showing… 2 acres and on top.”
correction above…missing A:
AND… p43, Line1883Q2
———————————————-
THIS FERNANDEZ SERIES OF PHOTOS TELLS A STORY, ALL IT’S OWN and one would think that more attention on behalf of both news coverage and investigations, in terms of image interpretation, would have been warranted? As such, where might greater in-depth discussion and conjecture, based upon such photos amongst the IM-YHF forum’s 29,000-plus comments, be found… as well, has there been any past discussion on the actual content of said “legal pad and notebooks”, referenced above? What about computer files… Fernandez certainly had one, with which he DID make, at least, 2 graphical representations, which might be considered as “maps”, right ??? Compare, for instance, the approx 10:30am, Saturday, photos with the following interview responses… p11, Line448Q2: “Did you have a good location on the Yarnell – what turned out to be the Yarnell fire?” Line 451 – 456 – 460 – 464 – 474 – 479 – 488A: “Personally I did not because by the time I got there the light was – there was no smoke showing and I couldn’t see a fire… But people who had seen it earlier knew where it was on the ridge line… No one had been to it… Uh, I did not get a visual on the fire until about 9:30 when a bush started flaming up, but the- then it was so dark all it was just aglow just up in the sky…Yeah, that was the first visual I had of the fire was at 9:30 looking through glasses it was a single bush that flared. So that was the first visual I had of the fire, but I couldn’t place it any where because it was dark and there was just a glow in the sky… So I had no visual of the Yarnell Hill fire during daylight… Because there was no visible signs of it.”
P12, Line494Q2: “Uh, and at what – could you describe that, uh, what you’re- what your thought process was with you and Bruce trying to figure out what your strategy for the following day was gonna be?” Line 498 – 507 – 512 – 517 – 521A: “Well, the thought process was we were working with an assumption that we would have multiple smokes showing up as daylight and the sun came up and would hit the fuels that we would – that’s when we would see smokes come up because the humidity’s were fairly high at that point. And at that point as we were seeing the Yarnell Hill fire was not visible, there was no visible signs of the… Um, so our expectation was multiple strikes would probably mean multiple fires as the sun came up the next day… And heated up the fuels. So our strategy was to collect resources there in Yarnell… Gather them up in Yarnell and run a – for lack of a better term – a complex. Um, and if I need to describe any of these terms just let me know. But you know what a complex is.” Line524Q2: “Uh, it – it feels good to me, but I – I think you might for these guys it would help if you could.” Line 527 – 531 – 540A: “Um, and we would keep an ICP set up in Yarnell and between myself and BLM however the fires popped out regarding jurisdiction we would then, uh, allocate resources from this pool… to deal with fires as we found them and were prioritize them. So that was our strategy for the next day is build a pool of resources and manage a potential complex of fires”… excerpt>Line760A: “What ended up being was that Yarnell Hill was the only fire that showed itself.”
HAVING READ THRU ALL OF THAT AND MORE, WHICH PRECEDES THE SAME… where might one find the specific IM-YHF comments, which discuss the potential, that there might NOT have existed any REAL FIRE POTENTIAL at and subsequent to the breaking of dawn on Saturday, 29 June? According to the next set of lines, the “assembling of forces” was underway, regardless… Shumate’s choice of wording, at times, would seem to leave much open to further conjecture ??? SHUMATES’S ACQUIRED EXPERIENCES and belief in his own sense of judgement and decision-making skills are discussed in the next set of pages and lines… p16, Line696Q2: “Okay. And so if you – if you chose to monitor a fire rather than direct – direct action for whatever the reason may be, you don’t have to go to a higher level of the organization to get that approved, uh, you can take that action and then tell them that you’ve done it that – or that’s what you’re doing? Or do you need some higher level of approval?” Line702A: “I would say that it’s case-by-case. Um, I feel that my time in the agency and my experience level has – would probably afford me more leeway to be more of the – this what I’m doing and not inform you of what I’m doing and the response be okay. I probably have more of that leeway than maybe a newer person might.” Page18-20 of the referenced interview are well worth a contemplative read and introduce the concept of “severity funding”… Line802A: “But it’s a – it’s a budget – it’s a financial mechanism which allows you to spend money even though there’s not a fire burning.”
WITH REGARDS TO THE SIZE AND STATUS OF THE FIRE ON FRIDAY NIGHT… p20-21, Line 865 – 897 – 917A: “Um, I ended up getting over the fi- over the fire – I – I guess backtrack, air attack from Doce did give me a recon Friday night… He – he – he had a hard time finding it… My recollection is the size it was always between two to eight acres.” WHILE VISUALIZING “EXACTLY WHERE” THIS SINGLE-BUSH-FLAREUP MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN… the question arises as to “how much” of the total 2-8 acres of large-and-small-boulder-strewn-therefore-less-densely-vegetated landscape (defined, fantail-shape influenced, as well, by point of lightning strike impact and prevailing winds) would have actually, even, been visible from any such Yarnell versus Congress-oriented vantage points, by the way. p23-24, Line984 – 994A: “That is correct, when BLM helicopter showed up they did a recon and found a helispot. Uh, my recollection was about 400 yards off the fire… Um, so the plan was made to insert a portion of a hand crew with the helicopter to that helispot and hike towards the fire.” Line997Q2: “So they started working the fire and did they get additional resources during the day?” Line 1000 – 1018 – 1023 – 1027A: “Well, the plan was to put two loads of folks up there again going back to my mitigation of lightning.. So I elected to only put two loads up there with the recons of air attack and the helicopter who had the BLM Type 3 IC on it… Uh, felt that that was an adequate response to that no smokes showing… 2 acres and on top. So I felt two loads plus the helitack guy would be an adequate response and allow us to pull them off the hill in case we got the lightning or the thunderhead buildups.” p24, Line1041Q2: “The fire was on the – the Congress side of the hill. 1043A: “It was on the top of the ridge line.”
AS THE FERNANDEZ PHOTOS CLEARLY CONFIRM, there appears to be a relatively limited amount of fractional acreage, “on top” and west of the two-track-trail; THUS, if this topmost fringe was already burning, as in a single-bush-flareup at 9:30pm, Friday… then, it would stand to reason, that the total “flaring-flaming-creeping” potential of the Saturday morning thru early evening “unburned fuel load” (divided by 6x DOC plus 1x helitack WFF team member, spread out over some 125′ section of two-track-trail and cutting away so much brush, that they’d run out of gas for their chainsaws)… add in the multiple SEAT-RETARDANT-DROPS designed to frame in north and south flanks… BY DESIGN AND INSTRUCTION… LEAVING OPEN, west and east flanks… WOULD HAVE TO BE RELATIVELY MINIMAL (perhaps, even, “staggeringly” so) ??? SATURDAY AFTERNOON DRAWS IN TOWARDS EVENING… p24-25, Line1064A: “My – yes, my – but my change had already – I had already started changing tactics prior to the slop over as the fire behavior started a little bit of increase. The slop over occurred while I was actually in transition of flying the new plan we created was being implemented while that slop over occurred.” Line1069Q2: “Oh, okay. So what was the new plan? Describe that to us.” Line1071A: “The discussion was – the – the original plan being to fly the folks down by about 3:30.” CONTINUING POINTS OF CONTENTION with regards to ThePLAN… when-is-a-creep-a-real-creep-versus-a-wannabe-creep… Line 1076&1081A: “Uh, it was looking good to keep that plan at some point they requested more time as they were getting some creep that they were dealing with… creep being slow – very slow-moving flames as opposed to just.” Line1083Q2: “One to two foot (unintelligible)” Line1085A: “It was probably less than that because it was on the grass that they were describing to me.” PAGE25 CONTINUES WITH THE “BAMBI-BUCKET-VERSUS-12X-5GAL-BLADDER-BAGS-EFFECTIVENESS-DECISION”… Line1101A: “Um, so we slung load that up there while that sling load was occurring was WHEN THE FIRE ON THE – AGAINST THE TWO-TRACK PICKED UP AND SPOTTED OVER. I ended up getting as I recall a couple more loads of people up there and, um, so that – my change of tactic was to add more people up to there to help with the direct attack and to give them badderbags as that would probably be a better application of water then the Bambi buckets.”
INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA (2013) http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#more-1953 “The fire got the upper hand at 5:18 p.m. when it jumped a two-track road that served as a firebreak on the eastern flank and quickly spread over two acres. “That should’ve never happened,” says a former Arizona hotshot crew superintendent who continues to work with federal wildfire crews and asked not to be named.” PAGE25 (ADOSH) ENDS WITH SHUMATE CONFIRMING ADDITIONAL SEAT-RETARDANT FLIGHTS (photo coverage of retardant application timing and patterns during this “phase of operations” are included in the ADOSH as Rory Collins attributed attachments)…“WildfireToday” (7:24pm, 29Jun) http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/09/28/yarnell-hill-fire-report-released/ …one such, very interesting photo illustrates the direction and pattern of the fire’s progression… some 2 hours afterwards (“slop-over” segment, lower-right-hand-center, as well, unburned and/or retardant-framed fringes including the approximate edge of that, which would become the northern extent of the 2nd evening’s perimeter… itself, transversing a ridgeline… between 60-400yds north of a road leading from the “old grader” to an abandoned mining operation, near the top)?
DESPITE THE FIRE’S NIGHTTIME ADVANCE ON 29>30 JUNE AND SIMILAR TO EARLIER, THAT VERY SAME SATURDAY MORNING… the “in-situ-de-facto-no-energy” fire status appears to repeat itself in something less than 24 hours (somewhat prior to approx 10:00am on SUNDAY), as Shumate again refers to the same in such terms as “very little smoke left on it” (JOY&SONNY have, also, made it to the top). At this point in “time and fire progress” (30Jun, just prior to the transition of YHF-IC to Roy Hall) however, Paul Musser and Todd Abel are still located at the Model creek School ICP… the SHUMATE-BLM-TEAM IS STILL IN CHARGE! p45, Line1989Q2: “And, uh, and then, so Todd and – or – Abel and Musser were out there in the field at that point running the operations on the ground? Line1992A: “When you say out the field, we were all there at Model Creek ICP, because that’s where all resources were except my night shift guys.” Line1995Q2: “Except your – your night shift that was still up on the burn.” Line1997A: “And in the neighborhoods.”
TO RETURN TO THE SECOND-EARLY-MORNING “CRITICAL MOMENT”… WHEN FIRE INTENSITY INCREASES, DRAMATICALLY… AND WFF REPORT THAT THEY ARE “OVERWHELMED” (NOT MANY FURTHER QUESTIONS TO BE ASKED, APPARENTLY… IT, JUST, IS WHAT IT IS) ??? p33, Line1429Q2:”So, uh, so anything happen that- early that morning before Roy gets there that – that you can remember that we might be interested in, prior to Roy’s arrival? 1436A: “I guess the significant thing is the fire finally stopped moving. Line1440A: Um and by morning there was very little smoke left on it.’ …p46-47, Line 2035 – 2042A: “So the priority from my operational priority was to get the guys off the hill as soon as the helicopter came on duty. And bed them down at the school, sa- them – so I stayed at the school until the last truckload came there and I tied in with them… And got there firsthand experience of what they saw up on the hill.” Line2044Q2: “How’d they describe it to you?” Line2045A: “Um, very little activity until the spot fire, then phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill runs simultaneously.” Line2049Q2: Both directions? Line2051A: “Both directions. Um, they did indicate that the retardant was working well, they just couldn’t work fast enough to keep pace with the fire.” Line2054Q2: The retardant couldn’t work fast enough to keep pace with the fire? Line 2056 – 2060 – 2065A: “Correct. We couldn’t lay enough retardant fast enough… The SEATs were working well just – we didn’t have the volume of retardant going out it to keep up with the fire behavior… They just told me what – how effective their tactics would’ve been and when they quit being effective.” 2068Q2: “And – and they were being effective up to some point using direct attack.” 2070A: “Up to some point. It – the fire behavior left their capabilities fairly rapidly”.
AT SOME POINT, PROBABLY, BEFORE NOON… “because all of us had been running for 30 hours” Russ Shumate removes himself from the action (unk exact time)… Line2095A: “So I left the fire scene, um, and went home and went to bed.” WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO BRUCE OLSON & DEAN FERNANDEZ… HAVE THEY ALSO LEFT THE AREA ??? SEE Charlie’s comment (26Nov, 12:21am) “There was a witness and I heard him say a BLM guy was barking out orders on the North end of the fire at Peeples Valley. Looks like for some reason BLM honchos want their name out of the debacle, and despite their saying the fire was not on BLM lands (the people’s of USA property) then I qestion why supposedly that Peeples Valley says they have no record of Yarnell Fire Incident, that BLM took their records. How is that possible or if that is true why? Maybe Gary Olsen being a federal investigator could shed some light on that fog.”
IGNORE, FOR THE MOMENT, THE “KEYSTONE-COP-SLOP-OVER” ALIBI FOR “WHAT HAPPENED” ON SATURDAY… is there, perhaps, more to “the rest of the story” in the timeframe of what appears to be 10:00am – 11:00am on 30 June2013 ??? Charlie says September 20, 2016 at 1:37 am: “At breakfast, we overheard a loved one talking in a booth adjoining – He said why would they even be sent up there in the first place since they could do nothing to stop a fire already advanced down the mountain beyond the scope of a twenty man team. I have to agree and where we were on the south side in the boulders we were out of sight of what was over the ridge until it got advanced to where we could see it exploding toward Peeples Valley. IT EXPLODED RIGHT AT THE BASE OF THE NEXT LITTLE MOUNTAIN… off the main Weaver Ridge – all hell broke loose and definitely you would have thought Donut would have headed out at about 11:30 or would have joined the main crew just above him not over two hundred yards up the hill.” WHAT MIGHT HAVE TURNED Shumate’s description of “by morning there was very little smoke left on it” into “phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill runs simultaneously” ??? TWO Days IN A ROW… there seemed to be little reason to believe, that the “lightning strike ignition” of some 40-plus hours earlier would NOT have been contained and suppressed on either or both of said mornings? FOOD INTENDED FOR CONTROVERSIAL THOUGHT: “Under the current insidious system of “controlled” backburning for wildfire suppression, firefighters actually put in far more fire than they put out” (p296…“The WILDFIRE READER” Wuerthner, 2006) and a good source for statistical review of what is, additionally, sub-titled as “A Century of Failed Forest Policy” !!! After all, even at this late date, and based upon recent WTKTT&GARY commentary (referencing such instances as evoke descriptions of “staggering-liar-coverup”)… DOES ANYONE, ELSE, THINK THAT THERE’S MORE TO THE STORYLINE, THAN JUST… “THEY WERE INCOMPETENT AND BLAMELESS… TO ERR IS HUMAN AND TO FORGIVE (OR OVERLOOK) IS DIVINE” …DRINKS AND PROMOTIONS, ALL AROUND, FOR THE BLAMELESS ???
Nope…no light from me.
No, he actually started the fires from scratch. And I didn’t play a role in that case. I knew the agents who did the case through a professional relationship, but I wasn’t involved in it..
The WF we are talking about letting the fire escape is the con crew…right?
Yes they contributed by being here. In some small way if they had known that their trusted fire fighters would not care of a lightening strike immediately considering the extreme fire conditions (the fire strike was controllable until it was allowed to enter the brush below or because their copter caused it to escalate on Saturday as some have said caused the fire to jump the two track and head north east–then yes–some of us are guilty of not going up there ourselves and putting the damn thing out. Maybe me most of all since as a kid of 15 I experienced doing that very thing with my Dad. We managed three in one day in worse hikes than that since our hikes had no road or two track and were steeper. If you have ever been in Sawmill Canyon of the Burro Mountains you would know how steep it is getting out of that canyon. My Dad was in his late 40’s at the time and in top physical shape as was I. He was hand steeling and mining daily while I would help him muck out at times but at other times I was hiking the forests.
Now the percentages of burned homes that had defensible space and those that did not was about average . 6% of homes with space did burn while 30% of those without space burned. So you greatly up your odds if you live in an area such as Yarnell and keep a defensible area around.
Joy and I did not loose a lot, being evicted from that Oak Park Motel Apartment 15. A rat hole of a place in my opinion but sufficed for slumber and a shower. In a way it was a favor by eventually putting us out in the desert for many months. Desert living is a lot cleaner than living in a rat hole like that. We got evicted because Joy and I were delivering United Way packages from there. See the authorities would not even let United Way people into the streets–you had to be a resident to go onto streets at the time so we did the United Way work which continued after we moved into USTowit. We continued the United Way work from there and the owner Phil Snyder never complained about our work.
The men responsible for the deaths begin with those that shirked their duties as firemen to protect their town by immediate action to contain that lightening strike. Those men themselves put up huge signs on each end of town stressing extreme fire conditions. No fires allowed. They knew about the extreme conditions better than anyone around, unless they were imbeciles.
The state will say it has no such duty, but these fire departments and personnel are responsible to the tax paying public. I have heard from some that the State ordered the local fire departments to stand down. The fire started on state land. Peeples Valley fire chief said he has no jurisdiction to go put out fires on state land. When does jurisdiction in a situation such as the extreme danger one of Yarnell interfer with saving your town. Peeples Valley got off better than Yarnell with I think only ten homes lost but had that wind not changed that town would have gone under likely worse than Yarnell if you look at the lack of defensible space there.
I have also heard regarding Yarnell that a few of the firemen there wanted to get up there and get it contained but there was an argument with apparently authority winning out. Maybe it was like the Marsh-Steed argument, one which Marsh won and the resulting deaths of the men. Who argued with Marsh or gave orders, I am certain is known but supressed and likely not to be revealed. Talk to Dr. Anderson who told me about those Yarnell arguements.
People around here are fearful. Retribution and not going along with the baloney fed the public can make you a Pariah in some circles. But I certainly do not want to be in those circles. That I will tell you is because the hiding of the truth and playing a game with the facts will contribute to future wild land fire fighter deaths.
Certainly no one here likes to think of this debacle that killed the 19 as Arizona’s legacy to the worst wild land fire fighting debacle ever. Their plaques should read that and read that Marsh and Steed failed miserably in their duties. The heroes under them only took orders and believed in their bosses–something that should be taught in every fire fighting book and the fact that when men seeing their bosses do what Marsh and Steed did they should be prepared to balk at obvious stupid decisions.
God did not want these men dead. They were not killed by accident. They were killed by careless manipulation of the men.
OK with weather reports to be 29F and 12mph winds tomorrow the group will get to feel what it is like to spend the Night up on top of the Weavers on Christmas Night. When they get to the top along the trail honoring the Yarnell Hiker Escape route then they will feel the full brunt of the winds. Since the winds are NNE tomorrow, going down that steep decline to where the men went off and died will have them facing into the winds and they better have some warm clothes or they will be approaching hypothermia.
Joy and I have hiked that area in same conditions as tomorrow more than once and have stayed there on the mountains side in worse conditions. I suspect they will call it off, and that would be a good decision since most of those people are not hikers and most will be woefully ill prepared for such a tedious hike.
If they had consulted the hikers, we could have made it much easier for them with a simpler and easier route legal (provided you have a 20 dollar communist permission to walk on your state land). Now why the hell would we tax payers pay for a park ranger in this god awful desolate place? If you get three hikers a year up there then you will be lucky and we are likely paying 30 or 40 grand a year to keep this guy around. Where is he going to hang out–under that shed. Maybe he can pretend to be the lookout the GMHS group neglected to have. And what is he to do? Watch that fence below where the men died? I bet he gets spooked in the night there–kids have seen their ghosts already and they might be angry for the lies about this incident and the fact they were ordered down to their deaths just to please a few honchos willing to risk the lives of their men for a lousy structure at the BS ranch. I know I would be haunting these bastards every day.
People ought to be angry that these lives were so needlessly sacrificed. Instead the men that caused this are held up like so many heroes. Put the truth out and that would change. The public does not like seeing young souls in their 20’s being killed for the glory of some honcho cronie outfit that continues to hide the truth. These people are protecting their reputations and doing a fair job of it–but it is an expensive protection considering the farce will cost more wild land fire fighter lives.
Then we add the fact that the retardant is a health destroyer with god and the industrial giants only know the hidden chemicals under trade secret laws. We in this country have a license to kill as long as it is hidden under big business money, lawyers, trade secrets and abilities to lobby the political takers.
Being a politician and attending this thing without telling the truth puts a dent in your credibility. But then maybe they politicos do not have full knowledge of the lies and cover ups concerning the Yarnell Hill Fire Debacle–definitely the worse in Arizona ever and likely the worse ever anywhere given all the facts and how things were mismanaged and people needlessly killed. I include the deaths of the elderly of beyond 100 souls in a small population of formerly 645. Add the sickness rampant from respiratory disease after the fire and you damn sure better add another trail and memorial for those departed and sick souls as well. Do they get honorary mention even for being guinea pigs to the saturated retardant dumps? Good god, the dumps look like Agent Orange Retardant and nearly the same life destroying effect we saw with the Viet Nam Agent Orange Dumps. It affects not only the people it was dumped upon but eventually those that dumped it.
The State needs to clean up its act on this one, and that includes BLM, FS and the good ADOSH people put an exclamation mark on that when the FS was fined max of over 500 thousand. They did that with minimal investigation–and had they investigated this fully I would believe that there would have been a bunch of changes in the way wild land fire fighters are allowed to risk their men in needless situations and likely many changes of bosses made, even some criminal charges made. This was damn serious when you see 19 dead men–but the best way to cover was to call it an accident and God needed these men in other heavenly situations, heroes to the bone since they carry the fireman title and no one can be called out to be responsible for killing those young souls. They have done a good job of it despite ADOSH investigators saying this was a debacle.
I do not buy this crap. The taxpayer has only because the truth of this catastrophe and its causes were hidden under a whitewash. The real heroes here are those that continue to pound at this debacle and expose the truth–what really happened and not what they want the public to believe.
Reply to Charlie post on November 28, 2016 at 9:01 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> OK with weather reports to be 29F and 12mph winds tomorrow
>> the group will get to feel what it is like to spend the Night up
>> on top of the Weavers on Christmas Night. When they get to
>> the top along the trail honoring the Yarnell Hiker Escape route
>> then they will feel the full brunt of the winds.
I still believe that whatever part of this ‘private’ dedication of this ‘public’ park involves some kind of ‘ceremony’ down at the actual deployment site… that there MUST have been ‘arrangements’ made to get people out to that deployment site WITHOUT requiring them to actually ‘do the hiking trail’ on that 15-foot-wide right-of-way that Arizona Parks is only ‘leasing’ from the Arizona State Trust Land Department.
There are MANY ‘family members’ who will want to be there at whatever is supposed to take place down at the deployment site who could not possible do that ‘hike’ under any circumstances.
So perhaps they really do have the permission of Lee and DJ Helm to use ( rent? ) their property as a ‘parking lot’ just one last time… complete with some kind of ‘vehicular shuttle’ from their property out to the deployment site and back…
…or maybe they really are going to have a helicopter ‘shuttling’ ( some ) people out to the deployment site tomorrow ( as the photo on the Arizona Parks page shows they have already been landing helicopters out there by the ‘flagpole’ ).
Maybe SOME family members will be able to “do the hike”… but MOST of them will NOT be able to.
.
in my account with one of the ones in the KNOW….
11-29-16 7am- they are to meet at deployment zone then be shuttled to highway 89 by 9am…for the dedication ceremony…those 19 men and some of the loved ones know my intent and so I am not going to go as originally planned but since I heard WHAT officials will be present I think it is best I stay as far away from that area for some of the officials are my concerns as they have not legally fulfilled my foias or done the right thing—so I will not be reporting any data to this private set aside moment…but it will bring some closure and a much needed moment but in reality the park was never the solution to what I call a problem…
I would love to see 1 loved one next to each sign and said they hiked in that weather tomorrow—I have been in so much worse—blizzard weather—even with the weather channel themselves so let me use their website to give the weather forecast:
Deployment Zone Area 7am:
TUE, NOV 29 7:00 AM DESCRIPTION TEMP 29° FEELS 19° PRECIP 0% HUMIDITY 62% WINDNNE 12 mph
once they are on the top—hour of the day they will be in 39-42 degrees yet feels like 21-38 degrees though…
Congress side of Weavers 9am: from weather channel
TUE, NOV 29 9:00 AM DESCRIPTION sunny TEMP 40° FEELS 34°PRECIP 0%HUMIDITY46% N WIND 11 mph
the rest of the day a blend of 6-11mph winds…
Yeah, I will be far far far away from all the hoop-tee-doo.
one thought Sonny—they will hike OUR trail tomorrow and see how far and steep and then maybe have a new respect for us for AS MANY as we have shown them the area with our hikes EVEN FURTHER than where their trail ends…how many times we hiked it…probably way too many—maybe they will go wow those hikers have really done a great thing for the 19 to try and gain as much data and purity…and maybe not 🙂
**
** ARIZONA STATE PARKS NOW SAYS THE NEW GM ‘PARK’ DOES
** NOT OFFICIALLY OPEN TO THE PUBLIC UNTIL NOVEMBER 30, 2016
Reply to Cheerleader post on November 23, 2016 at 7:20 pm
>> Cheerleader said…
>>
>> LOCAL NOTIFICATION:
>>
>> ADOT Response:
>> Thank you for contacting the Arizona Department of Transportation.
>>
>> Please contact Tricia Lewis, Sr. Community Relations Officer 928-606-2420.
>> 11/23/2016 10:01:02 AM
>>
>> I just hung up the phone with her 18:29 pm ( 11:55 minute call )
>>
>> They ( ADOT ) are closing highway 89 going down on November 29th – 2 way lane
>> so you can go up and down on the UP part…and not have to reroute to Hillside locals.
>>
>> before 9am is the private moment for loved ones event not on highway 89 and
>> the dedication is at 9am with Governor Doug Ducey and Senator
>> John McCain on hwy 89.
>>
>> after ceremony is over they will open later that day ( November 29 ) to the PUBLIC.
>>
>> This notification should help people who flew in to hike the trail 11-29-16 that you
>> won’t be able to go to the parking lot until late day however there is always the
>> hikers that can tell
The ‘Arizona State Parks Department’ has now posted a NEWS item on their special ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ website ‘announcing’ the upcoming ‘opening’ of the new Arizona State Park… and the information THEY are posting does NOT match what you heard from Tricia Lewis of the Arizona Department of Transportation ( ADOT ).
Arizona State Parks says the new GM State Park will NOT be ‘open to the public’ until November 30, 2016… the day AFTER the ‘private dedication’ of this ‘public’ park.
Arizona State Parks Department
Granite Mountain Memorial State Park
News and Events Page
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/news-and-events
From that new PUBLIC page on their website…
—————————————————————————————
News
PARK OPENING – Wednesday, November 30, 2016
Two years after the first meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board, and thanks to a generous donation from the Arizona Public Service Foundation, the park is nearly ready to open to the public.
TRAIL DESCRIPTION:
From the trailhead, the Hotshots Trail is a 2.85 mile path up to the Observation Deck. Every 600 feet, 19 granite plaques set into rocks share a photo and a story of each fallen Hotshot. Additional interpretive signage provides information about wildland firefighting.
From the Observation Deck, you can see the Fatality Site 400’ below and the Town of Yarnell to the east. Additional interpretive signage outlines the tragic events of the Yarnell Hill Fire. A Tribute Wall will be available to leave stickers, patches and other mementos in honor of the sacrifice the Granite Mountain Hotshots made to protect our community.
The 3/4-mile Journey Trails allows you to follow the last steps of the Hotshots down to the Fatality Site where they made their last stand.
Encircling the Fatality Site, 19 gabions, one for each Hotshot, are united by chains representing their eternal team. A path surrounds the gabions and a memorial flagpole. Please, take a moment to pay your respects, but remain outside of the gabion enclosure out of respect for the Hotshots and their families.
—————————————————————————————
So that LAST paragraph on the official Arizona State Parks website is now saying,
( in no uncertain terms ) that the ACTUAL ‘deployment site’ at the ‘Public State Park’ is
OFF LIMITS to the PUBLIC, and that the CHAINS are there between the
‘lobster-baskets-filled-with-rocks’ to accomplish exactly what Amanda Marsh and Deborah Pfingston ( and other members of the ‘design subcommittee’ for this PUBLIC park ) wanted all along… to treat a certain area of this new PUBLIC ‘State Park’ as if it was some kind of ‘cemetery’.
And now… even on the actual HOME PAGE for this ‘new State Park’… there is an ‘announcement’ about when this ‘new State Park’ will be ‘open to the public’…
Arizona State Parks Department
Granite Mountain Memorial State Park
Home Page
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/
—————————————————————
The park will open to the public on Wednesday, November 30.
Parking is available in Yarnell and shuttle service will be available to transport guests to the main parking lot thru 12/4/16.
Please carpool to conserve space. HIKERS: This is a 7-mile roundtrip trail, please dress appropriately, bring adequate water, food and plan for a minimum of 4 hours roundtrip. Temporary restrooms are available at the parking lot. Get more information HERE.
—————————————————————
And they have also ‘updated’ their ‘banner photo’ at the top of the home page to show that new METAL SIGNS have been ‘installed’ at the trailhead ( and hanging on the chain for the stairway leading up to the trail ) that say…
—————————————————————-
Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park
Park will be open to the public on November 30, 2016.
—————————————————————-
So regardless of what ‘Arizona Department of Transportation’ ( ADOT ) thinks ( and is telling the public )… the people running this thing really HAVE decided they don’t want any of the pesky ‘public’ who actually PAID for this park to be showing up at any time on November 29, 2016, when they are performing their little PRIVATE dedication of this PUBLIC park.
Diane lomas says
NOVEMBER 17, 2016 AT 2:28 PM
Russ shumate:
Why Didn’t shumate nt follow suggestion to set up pumpkin earlier on Saturday as encouraged?
Ego or something else?
And I say, “It was something else.” Next to the Battlement Creek Fire, this subject has been my favorite drum to beat on since the very first day I was a rat snitch bastard for JD. So, here is the bottom line…it is always the bottom line for Arizona State Forestry. They have to watch it, because whores (politicians) like former Arizona State Senator Steve “Papers Please” Pierce and his whore replacement Senator Karen “Queen of Quid Pro Quo” Fann under fund Arizona State Forestry today, just like they will tomorrow and they always have and they always will.
Search on- line for the 10 tax friendliest states for retirees and yep, you guessed it, Arizona will always rank near the very top. Why you might ask? Because they don’t charge enough in state taxes to adequately fund Arizona State services and they structure their tax system to favor grouchy old people and rich businesses. You get what you pay for, although there must be a happy medium between the State of California giving the Candy Store away to their civil servants and the State of Arizona starving theirs…but as President Elect Trump says, who knows, who knows, where that line is? But it must be very hard to find indeed.
The second problem is that Arizona is a, “Right To Work” state which tells the poorly educated and trained blue collar workers that they have the “Right To Get Fucked (and not in a good way).” Arizona has continued to practice “Trickle Down Economics” even though President Ronald Reagan proved decades ago that trickle down economics means letting the rich piss on your head and tell you it’s raining or that they are just giving you a warm shower…a Golden Shower.
I see on the news that President Elect Trump has something very similar planned for us during his administration. I like saying, “I told you so”, almost as much as I like warning people bad things will happen if they don’t listen to me. So…I told you so. And that he would back peddle on every campaign promise he made while he prepares to break every promise he made. I also told you that The Donald and his Slovenia whore would not want to move from the penthouse in Trump Tower on 5th Avenue to “This Olde House.” I told you so.
Whoops…I digressed, again. So…back on point, Arizona State Forestry fights fire today, just like they fought it on June 30, 2013, and that is the same way they will fight it tomorrow and forever…by cutting corners and pinching pennies. Blah, blah, blah, here is your take-a-way. Helicopters cost a lot of money to operate. Russ Shumate knows that, so he is trained NOT to utilize them. And what do we know people do when they are under stress, that’s right…they subconsciously revert to their training.
That is why he also did not hand the fire over to his BLM counterpart who he seemed to believe was more experienced than he was. Shumate’s BLM counterpart, who is a federal employee, has been trained to fight fire the BEST way, not the CHEAPEST way. And Shumate knew Arizona State Forestry would eventually get the bill and like I told the Woodsman, states can’t print their own money so unlike the federal government…they tend to run out of it.
Don’t be too hard on Shumate or his pencil pushing task masters. Their way of fighting fire almost always works. Can you name another wildfire Arizona State Forestry ever fought either successfully or unsuccessfully…I can’t either. They are like most wildfires, you have never heard of them because they came and went without serious incident.
Almost all of the land that Arizona State Forestry manages, is well…is not the BEST land nor does it have the best natural resources on it and they don’t really have very much of it. And what they do have, they have to make money on by law for Arizona State schools. Unlike their federal counterparts, the NPS, the USFS, the BLM, and even the USFWS and the BIA, they are a for profit enterprise… which is a much, much, much harder thing to be.
And as you probably know, the NPS got the Family Jewels, followed by the USFS and bringing up the rear with the worst federal land but more of it than all other federal agencies combines…is the BLM. The USFWS and the BIA are in their own sub-categories because the first one manages mostly marshes and wetlands for wildlife and the latter manages Indian Reservations for Native Americans.
So you really should be not only asking tough questions of former Arizona State Senator Steve “Papers Please” Pierce and his whore replacement Senator Karen “Queen of Quid Pro Quo” Fann. You should be blaming them for what went wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I have a whole rant I could and might write about the contract employees or FIRE mercenaries who fought the YHF for Arizona State Forestry. But…here is the Readers Digest version of that particular rant, they knew better, but they were doing what their employer always does, cutting corners, pinching pennies, ramping up slowly and hoping for the best. And once again…that business model has worked every other time for tens of thousands, or maybe even hundreds of thousands of fires on land managed by Arizona State Forestry because neither you nor I have ever heard of them.
Oh…and one more thing. Am I an open borders screamin’ liberal? FUCK NO! I will wage I have done far more to secure our nations borders than most ever have or ever will. It’s just that I know something many of you are too fuckin’ stupid or stubborn to know or accept.
You don’t have to build a wall to keep THOSE PEOPLE out of our country. You just have to eliminate the economic incentive for them to come to this country illegally and almost all of it will virtually stop overnight.
BUT…THEY won’t do that because they know what I know, if they did that, our economy would collapse, or at least take an unacceptable hit. Just ask Georgia what happened when they tried to crack down a few years ago on illegal aliens. Most of the UDA’S fled the state and almost all of their tomato crop (I think it was tomatoes, or whatever those red necks grow down there beside peaches) rotted in the field.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce does not want the UDA’S to stop coming to this country nor do the mostly Republican business owners like The Donald. They make too much profit off the backs of the UDA’S and YOU PEOPLE save a few cents here and there by having cheaper houses built, restaurant meals and friuts and vegetables at the place all of our food comes from…the grocery store.
That is the same reason the smuggling of controlled substances into this country will never be stopped or even impacted very much. As long as American citizens want to smoke, snort, and inject that shit into their bodies, there will be a market for it and where there is a market for something…there will be a supply of it. The only question is…how much does it cost and who makes the profit from it?
And here is my funny story about the first time I was ever assigned to work with those Terminal Assholes known as the U.S. Border Patrol.
I was out in the back country wandering around by myself in the pitch black night and all of a sudden…I heard rustling all around me. I lit the area up with my six cell Mag light and I was surrounded…by about 50 little Chinese people.
I don’t know where the fuck they came from, but they weren’t Mexicans…or Latino’s of any kind. They were the people on their way to save YOU PEOPLE a few pennies here and there with most of your services other than landscaping.
OK…just one more and then I am going to try and shut my brain off for the day and go out in the garage and work on my gear and equipment to get ready to go back to the dunes.
As Walt Kelly wrote in his “Pogo” comic strip;
“We have met the enemy and he is us.”
So…
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Walt_Kelly
That is exacty correct Gary. If you visit Aquila you will see miles and miles, mostly of melons planted in the area. In fact, if you get off 71 on a farm road to go to my ten acres out to the fartherest reaches of the desert where private land still exists and federal lands begin–I adjoin federal lands—you do pass miles of melons. Sometimes whole fields are left to rot.
I do not know if that is because of lack of laborers or likely on purpose. But the fields being tended are from Mexican Labor and they are brought in by the bus loads. We visit the flea market there on tuesday and people there are mostly from Mexico but you will meet Peruvians, Colombians, and many different South American countries represented among the workers. And the facts are that those melons around there would just about all rot if all these illegal and some legal South American individuals were barred entry. So we know the melon suppy would go down. And Marijuana or drugs.
Seems like fellows here are growing their own from that link showing the Oak Park Trailer resident and his plants. They looked pretty healthy and likely a lot safer than anything trucked in out of Mexico. I see that guy is getting a felony as is his sick female help. I would give them an award for such nice plants. I don’t smoke that sit or use drugs–illegal or even legal ones except each time I quit this brelinta I come down with a heart attack. But if Marijuana would do a better job I would use it since it is natural and this shit is chemical and the side effects are atrocious. Well die of a ruined liver or faster with a quick heart attack?
This is where the system is broken. Putting felonies on people growing pot so now the taxpayer supports them in the expensive prisons. It used to be 40 grand a year when I worked in the probation department in the late 80’s. You can bet it is over 50 grand a year tax payer money to support a prisoner these days. And shit, many of them get their pot in prison same as the outside.
In a free America, let the pot head be a pot head. Let the drunk be a drunk–more dangerous and deadly an occupation. And let the doper be a doper. My way of thinking, I do not think the taxpayer need pay fifty grand a head to incarcerate these people and perhaps even a common thief. It would be cheaper to hire counselors, have areas where if they are a so called danger to society then go to somewhere like Dolan Springs where a number are dangerous to society–even the weather there is dangerous to society.
But this country has come to a big money game==a juggernaut not assailable. It is a money game. Law enforcement gets billions to fight the so called drug wars that are totally unsuccessful. The incarceration programs make billions in tax monies running the penal systems. None is to any justification in my opinion. There are much better ways in a free society. \\
Fire fighting and retardant dumps and the killing of young souls==another situation.
Recreational marijuana is for sale up here in the Great Pacific Northwest (Washington and Oregon) everywhere I look which I find very ironic since I risked my life so many times to prevent that drug from being consumed. The joke is on me. In fact…I am thinking about taking it up myself…or at least get some brownies laced with it.
There are literally more than a dozen walk in stores that sell it within a five mile radius of where I live…I think it is a real hoot! The only problem is, the local pot heads complain it is a lot more expensive than illegal cannabis is because the state tax on it is so high (pun intended). So…I guess we are moving in the right direction. I saw it was on the ballot in Arizona but I lost track if it passed or not?
Thank you Gary,
Your comments about Russ Shumate’s decisions on the fire give us more insight into how these decisions can be made.
At least we know what what his priorities could have been during the fire.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on November 23, 2016 at 7:07 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> WTKTT states that Willis requested air support for burn-outs he was
>> doing in Model Creek Rd. area during the 3:50-4:30 pm time frame
>> that AA was directed to go to Yarnell.
Feeling the need to ‘clarify’ here.
I said it is ‘possible’ ( and, perhaps, likely ) that he did so…
…but there is no actual Air-To-Ground radio channel capture that would prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he did… and no investigator ever ASKED Willis directly whether he did ( or not ).
Once again… here is that piece of ‘evidence’ which ‘suggests’ that Willis *might* have been requesting ‘Air Support’ for the ‘burnouts’ he was assigned to do in the Model Creek Road area…
From Darrell Willis’ second ADOSH interview…
Q5 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS1 Darrell Willis
———————————————————————————
829 Q5: Oh, yeah, and that – that’s why I was asking the question, Darrell. So when –
830 when you – when you call air attack, you didn’t know who was gonna answer,
831 whether it was gonna be the air attack or the lead plane, the ASM or – or who
832 might answer that call.
833
834 A: Yeah, and I got corrected. Uh, I remember being corrected when we were
835 gonna take the Model Creek Road and try to burn and hold it. Um, I was
836 trying to call Bravo 33, and nobody’d answer. And then some – I think it was
837 Bravo 3 came up and said it’s – I’m, “No, Bravo 33 is gone. I’m Bravo 3.”
838 “Oh okay.” Well, you know, I didn’t realize what’s going on up there. I’ve
839 got my hands full down here.
———————————————————————————
So even in this ‘exchange’ with the ADOSH investigators… Darrell Wills does NOT say DIRECTLY that he was ‘calling Air Support’ for the specific purpose of requesting ‘drops’ to support what he was doing…
…but I believe it can be ‘inferred’ that is WHY he was trying to call them… at that time ( when he was trying to ‘burn and hold’ the Model Creek Road on the ground ).
Why else would an SPGS who had been told to ‘burn and hold’ a road be ‘calling’ Air Attack, if NOT to request some ‘help’ in accomplishing that task?
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> How was this air support and retardant drops granted and
>> under whose authorization ?
Well… generally speaking… anyone who is allowed to call Air Support and request retardant drops is allowed to call Air Support and request retardant drops.
That is not an attempt at ‘doublespeak’… it is simply the way it is.
And as ‘Structure Protection Group Supervisor 2’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire.. Darrell Willis DID qualify as someone who was ‘allowed’ to call ‘Air Attack’ directly and make such requests.
So Willis didn’t need any additional ‘authorization’ to make those radio calls.
His title/position on the fire automatically ‘allowed’ him to make those radio calls.
Now…whether or not ‘Air Attack’ agrees to the ‘requests’ is another story altogether.
They ( Air Attacks ) will usually do all they can to ‘grant’ the requests coming from the ground forces… but there might be a lot of reasons why they can’t ( or won’t ).
I think your line of questioning on this might be making it all more complicated than it really might have been.
It still remains perfectly possible that when ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins left the Yarnell Hill Fire at 3:58 and actually ‘handed over’ the ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities to ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross )… that Burfiend and/or French then just decided ( on their OWN ) to IGNORE everything they had agreed to do at 3:50 PM… and they then just proceed to remain overly-focused on that little now-no-longer-a-priority retardant line project they had been working on there in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area.
They simply might NOT have been comprehending the seriousness of the situation that was developing on the OTHER end of the fire… and they just became ‘anal retentive’ about ‘finishing up’ that little project on the NORTH side before turning their attention to anything else.
In other words… simple ‘task fixation’.
THEY might have decided that THEY just wanted to be ‘happy’ with the ‘task’ that THEY had been working on BEFORE turning their attention to anything else.
And once Rory Collins had handed over ‘Air Attack’ to them ( at 3:58 )… and actually LEFT the Yarnell airspace… they were now FREE to do just that. At that moment… both the ‘Air Attack’ and the ‘Lead Plane’ duties were now assigned to the same single aircraft ( Bravo 33 ).
Followup…
Just so there is no confusion here… I’m feeling the need to point something else out.
That ‘retardant line’ in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area(s) that was being ‘finished up’ by ‘Air Attack’ Bravo 33 ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) in the 3:50 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe was NOT ‘started’ in that timeframe.
It’s the same ‘project’ that ‘Bravo 33’ HAD already been working on PRIOR to 3:50 PM when Air Attack Rory Collins told Thomas French to switch the attention of Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire.
So whoever actually either ‘decided’ or ‘requested’ that this ‘retardant’ line be STARTED did so BEFORE 3:50 PM… and BEFORE the ‘wind shift’.
It ( the start of the ‘project’ ) was probably the result of some amount of ‘communications’ between SPGS2 Darrell Willis ( who was told to ‘hold a line’ in the Model Creek Road area ) and OPS1 Todd Abel ( who was directing burnouts in the Miner’s Camp Road area ) and Air Attack Rory Collins… who AGREED with this ‘project’ and then told Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French ) to BEGIN doing that ‘project’.
But who KEPT the ‘Air Support’ focused on ‘finishing up’ that ‘project’, even AFTER 3:50 PM and after the wind shifted and the threat to Peeples Valley had mitigated… remains the mystery.
I still believe ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) that it could have simply been a case of ‘task fixation’ on Thomas French’s part. He just couldn’t stand that there were still some ‘gaps’ in the ‘project’ he had been working on… and he was unaware of how serious the situation had become down on the Yarnell side of the fire.
So when Rory Collins LEFT the fire ( at 3:58 PM )… Thomas French just remained ‘fixated’ on that project and wanted to use all the available SEATS and the on-scene VLAT to just ‘tidy up’ that project he had been working on before turning his attention to anything else.
Yes, much retardant was dropped near Peeples Valley, a smaller community than Yarnell. Joy and I do not have much information on the state of things concerning deaths and health after the drops made there. Much depends upon the winds and I do suspect the east side dumps, although dangerous are not as deadly as those that were dropped to the west of us and to the north. Like the fall out of a nuclear bomb, prevailing winds have much to do with where poisons are deposited. That is well known and people downwind from the fall out caused by the many nuclear blasts from the Mercury site suffered very high incidences of cancer. John Wayne and those that breathed the dust during their filming at a site downwind from those blasts proved that.
So we do not talk much about cumulative effects of these distributed poisons such as the retardant. It was finally figured out that mad hatters became mad over time because they were using mercury in their hatting work. The chimney sweeps got cancer in time, especially in places where the soot collected such as the groin or belt area. The women that painted luminous dials with radioactive substances on watch faces eventually got tongue cancers. I am a victim of that accumulation–my medical records show melanoma, squamous cell carcinoma, basal cell carcinoma, tumors of cancer remove so that Joy says I almost have no nose left, one eyebrow is gone due to removal of a tumor there add shoulder scars and numerous other places these that over 20 of these things have been removed and you get a gruesome picture of the cumulative effects of uranium mining. Of course they want to say the sun in a big reason for these and to a degree it is. But then I have siblings in the Arizona sun a lot as well–none on either sister or the brother have had these things despite the sun and their older ages. Fortunately our gene supply gives long life, albeit seems like we do some suffering.
But this is about cumulative effects. It is a fact brought about by a study that people that were brought up within a few mile circle of the El Paso Smelter right along the Rio Grande at El Paso, Texas have a ten point less IQ than those farther than 7 miles of that smelter. The cumulative effect of breathing the chemicals that came out of that smelter did that, and mostly the lead was involved there. So you can even be more dim witted if you get enough chemicals in you, especially lead. The mercury in that smoke must have made a few crazies as well. I suppose they have cleaned it up now==and I worked some five miles from it for the State of Texas probation department. But only for a year and after I was grown so I can’t blame my slowness of thinking on that element.
There is one thing, I do not drink out of the plastic and I see people thinking they are doing themselves a favor drinking that so called cleaner water there. The plastic has traces of some of the deadliest of chemicals like benzene–and I do believe these plastic chemicals are a large factor in the internal cancers so rampant these days. After all the plastics are made from crude oils, an oil product. It is true though that your government adds chlorine and flourine to water and it is wise to have a filter ==I do here in Yarnell. Both those are deadly chemicals that kill bacteria but anything that kills bacteria, be careful with it. Here I looked at a list of things in the water including arsenic and other bad chemicals and add to that the chlorine, you are wise to get a filter. See the government sets so many parts per thousand is OK, but then those parts per thousand add up. It does take a goodly amount of some to get cancers started or does it? With plutonium, (17 pounds put up in some satellites) only a tiny atom will start a cancer. It is considered one of the deadliest substances on earth, yet was used profusely in different applications==spread about with Hydrogen bombs, satellite crashes to earth and so on so it adds to the death rates due to cancers. Radium and Madame Currie died playing with that, while one of the guys that used his hands to separate a critical mass situation, died very soon with all the radiation sickness. Chernoybl people are still dying and so are thousands that got down wind. Now we have the ocean bringing in Japan’s mess to our Pacific shores. Is this their revenge for killing so many of them with the atom bombs? Of course a nuclear accident, but maybe old Karma at work there as well.
But paying attention to cancer we know it is anaerobic. What kills lung cells and depletes oxygen to the body worse than ammonia. Run if you are near it, and it is not good smelling that crap spread on farm lands. Welcome to progress though. And anyone promoting more use of uranium ought to be sent to the uranium mines. Promoting use of plastic containers and plastic bags and wraps–send them to work in a plastic factory.
The old miners that now after long time mining with black lung, silicosis, or with half a nose from radiation will tell you, don’t do it, well unless there is a war and this might mean something. Ordinarily it doesn’t.
Gary,
What do you think was going on with Willis and these retardant drops after 3:50 pm?
Reply to Charlie post on November 23, 2016 at 9:22 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Woodsman makes sense in one way for a fireing operation on the
>> North Side of Glen Isla. Accroding to Howard Bennett, there was
>> already a firing operation going on on the N side of Glen Isla.–that
>> may have been seen by Bruce Brown as well. However, unlike
>> Howard, Bruce has been pretty quiet about what he witnessed.
>> They are next door neighbors and live right on the edge of Glen Isla
>> North and Bruce’ and Howard back yards are the open space below
>> the Helms BS ranch. In fact about 50 yards across the street from
>> Bruce’s back yard is the Gate off Boulder Springs Trail.
** Bruce ( Lee ) Brown
Bruce ( Lee ) Brown owns THREE ‘parcels’ ( all touching each other ) there at the north end of South Ridgeway Road and right at the point where the ‘driveway’ out to the Boulder Springs Ranch ( known as ‘Boulder Creek Trail’ ) begins…
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-04-045 – Owner: Bruce ( Lee ) Brown
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-04-046 – Owner: Bruce ( Lee ) Brown
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-04-049A – Owner: Bruce ( Lee ) Brown
Click the following link to see the ‘center’ of these THREE adjoining parcels all owned by Mr. Bruce ( Lee ) Brown…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'10.8%22N+112%C2%B045'51.8%22W/@34.2196584,-112.7665737,766m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.219654!4d-112.764385
* Howard Bennett
Howard ( William ) Bennett owns TWO parcels there just to the EAST of the THREE parcels owned by Bruce ( Lee ) Brown. They both are at the ‘end’ of ‘Deertrack Drive’ there where it branches east off of South Ridgeway Road.
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-04-047
Owner: William H. Bennett and Jeraldine Bennett
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-04-048
Owner: William H. Bennett and Jeraldine Bennett
Basically ALL of these properties lie just to the SOUTH ( 229 yards ) of that ‘lot’ where the Yavapai County bulldozer loboy trailer *AND* the Blue Ridge Hotshot Chase truck with the trailer for the Blue Ridge Hotshot UTV Polaris Ranger were ‘staged’ for most of the day on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
That ‘Blue Ridge Chase Truck’ with the trailer attached is the one that Brian Frisby had to ‘return’ to that day whenever he needed to refuel the UTV Polaris Ranger, because that Blue Ridge Chase Truck had all the ‘extra gas’ onboard.
That ‘lot’ that was being used as a ‘staging area’ for the bulldozer loboy and the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s chase truck is parcel number 203-05-003N ( Owner: Clifford E. and Melvina M. Frederick ).
There was just ONE other lot ‘in-between’ the ‘Bennett’ and ‘Brown’ lots where the Yavapai County bulldozer loboy trailer and the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s chase truck were ‘staged’… and it is parcel number 203-05-003P ( Owner: Columbus Discovery Trust ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> If Howard’s testimony that he was watching a burn out along there,
>> then that fire would have also turned up toward Helm’s cutting off
>> any excape route below the Helms and to the South of their BS
>> BS = Boulder Springs. When the wind whipped SSE then it would
>> go back toward the main of Glen Isla–and would also explain why
>> almost all of Candy Lane was destroyed.
IMPORTANT question(s)…
1. What TIME ( on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ) did Mr. Howard Bennett see what he believes was this ‘firing operation’ taking place?
2. And what makes him believe it was a ‘firing operation’ versus just the normal advance of the wind-driven fireline into the Glen Ilah area? Did he actually SEE ‘firefighters’ lighting this ‘burn’ to the north of his properties?
I meet with them soon to go over data—
let you know as I know
I was hoping that Sonny ( Charlie ) would respond to the questions.
He is the one who has ALREADY talked with Mr. Bennett, right?
I was just wondering if Mr. Bennett didn’t ALREADY just give Sonny SOME indication of WHEN he was seeing what he says he saw.
Even if it’s not an exact time… he must remember what the ‘context’ of the ‘time’ was.
In other words… early afternoon, late afternoon, before everyone was evacuating, or not until the shit was all hitting the fan… etc.?
That sort of thing.
I was there with Sonny at Bruce Brown’s auction when Mr Bennett was speaking direct to me not Sonny…I know him not Sonny…he thanked me for the updates always by snail mail to him and his wife… and Larry McCracken was present too who also lost their home. It was a good chat but nothing I would place public with the sensitivity of the matter until I see in person the account and etc because of what was said but Sonny if he wants to chime in because he started the topic…let him but Sonny was listening in on a talk I was having and he would time to time chime in and ask him a question…
to answer you…Mr Bennett said much more than what even Sonny has already reported and in a way those people I have said and Bruce Brown and Colombus and S&P and Baluco are really areas that could shed light if they would just share but due to the poor health of Mr. Bennett’s wife I will not elaborate 3rd party data until I have him recorded and his account and pics and permission….just won’t…but this one thing I will say- I am getting foias to backup his data
and I know the entities as they were named at that auction
Why cant’ you just say whether Mr. Bennett DID ( or did NOT ) give any indication of the TIME when he thinks he saw what he thinks he saw?
I don’t understand why you might feel the need to keep THAT some kind of ‘secret’?
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
NOVEMBER 24, 2016 AT 11:49 AM
Why cant’ you just say whether Mr. Bennett DID ( or did NOT ) give any indication of the TIME when he thinks he saw what he thinks he saw?
I don’t understand why you might feel the need to keep THAT some kind of ‘secret’?
MY REPLY:
I did not state I would not say wwtktt…
but on that data and that crucial area and because there are vultures kettling singling me out
and because of the named entities I have foias in with
I am not going to prematurely state something
as well I do not care about socially HOW my time spent has affected me locally
but I do care if I am going to third party crucial data in a sue happy world the permission of the giver of data I want first
as well like Gary said in the end I alone cannot go up against the ones I am digging…
so are you READY to come forward and wear a HELLO MY NAME IS…_______ sticker
or are you always going to be able to say give it all and do not hold secrets because your name for over 3 years is a “secret” and yet I do not press you…and you know when able you and 2 others I immediately give you my data so to publicly push me is not really cool.
I am just a messenger of data not the first hand person and I LIVE here so are you READY to come forward and meet in person for the data vs this public online forum hiding behind the OZ curtain? How does anyone of us know if you are being paid to be here from some area…I am not getting paid and have accrued a high debt in my searching…and lost alot of folks from my digging and I come with full name so always I am going to be cautious wwtktt because once my parents divorced I thought I would never be in a court setting and due to this fire and a grieving phase I now have on my record INJUNCTION FOR HARASSMENT yet a serial killer is out there now free where prosecutor Vincent Imbordino gave me a fair warning but my full name is out there now due to this fire wwtktt and you cannot imagine the horros I have seen and do you really think I am with fear …NO…but hell yes CAUTION so I ask kindly leave me alone on topic as if I am the carrier to secrets…To call me out like that and single me out..there is others here that have offline data too just because I make a public alertness on a topic it is just to time stamp how long I know…not a teaser…but yes there is missing elements…”end of story”
SO I stand firm I am not withholding data you cannot go get yourself…go to Hallmark and buy the prettiest christmas card and mail Bruce and Howard and Ali and learn for yourself their data and then once you know come here as your unidentified self and tell the world but for me as JOY A COLLURA there is no way…not even under cheerleader,,,until I get permission…As Marti Reed stated; she said all she had and I think it is best if I tell the bleacher folks that I am not going to ask your questions…come here and ask yourselves…as in SHARK TANK tv land would say- I’m Out!
I am feeling anxious because I can go sleep on the private property neighboring the start of this memorial park to watch the event from mountaintop on 11-29 because in all reality I should not have to be the guest of a loved one but for so many reasons I should BE there for it is my trail I took out with Sonny that day 6-30-13 and the GMHS never were on that trail- we were…The trail does not even go to the Saddle…or the old grader…or the other areas…why all the political PULL for this park anyways when there is a much more serious problem here…it sickens me to think these high officials will get their photo-op but they do not want to get to the root of it all and I so doubt John McCain will hike the trail- just a silly political photo-op and elections have passed….
Happy Holidays-
talk all day at me or about me…pause for me…I am tired of me the secret holder when others were present that day too yet I am always publicly named it…even by Sonny down below..JOY TELL ALL,,,I know who and where can cause me extreme danger and I do not live that way…Sonny is free to share but I am not able to just to have the entity break me down…
Those 19 and ALL fallen deserve the best and I will give them the data but always gathering all data first since I hit a crucial wall in this now..
It was a simple question ( that was actually directed at Sonny, not you ).
As I used to tell Fred Schoeffler ( Robert the Second )… it’s hard for any of the rest of us ‘participating’ in this PUBLIC forum to put these ‘reports’ into ‘context’ unless you are willing to even answer some basic questions about what is being posted.
All I wanted to know is some GENERAL IDEA of what TIME ( on Sunday? ) this person thinks they saw some kind of ‘firing operation’ at the location(s) that Sonny has already ( publicly ) reported.
On this situation of Mr. Bennett, he was also observing important things on Saturday as well as Sunday. The only reason I posted what I heard was because I hoped someone like Dr. Ted Putnam or John Daugherty would get hold of him and get facts from him as to what he witnessed. Joy can do the same but it would be well if more than one person speaks to Mr. Bennett. Now Bruce I think might not want to be interviewed. He is disgusted with how he got treated after the fire. He is in a disagreement with his insurance and I think they did not pay for all his losses. Ali lives right next to them, her home being first to burn of all the homes and she herself almost was burned to death and did loose her two dogs due to the situation of not being warned about the impending fire.
The reason I posted about these people is because they were never interviewed by any investigator concerning the fire and what they say.
Keep in mind I am working on only 13% of my hearing left. However, I can communicate and do hear generally well people that have low tone voices. This too is a good reason to have JD or others to verify what those people saw both Saturday and Sunday as to the activity that was going on along that North side of Glen Isla. Joy can tell you more if she gets to these people to interview them again.,
Howard would be the best person to go to first and hopefully John D would be the one to post it on his main page.
Consider that also they are the closest people living nearest Helms and closest in Glen Isla to the place the men died. Ali said she gets sick every time she looks toward the Helms and the death site right near them.
as I stated on here as I got the data—wwtktt—- I would let you know—check your email…I need to rest and lay down…the vomiting is just crazy….I want this kind of day over….oh and it may not rain Tuesday for their thing but it will be cold and windy but not as cold as it was on our Weather Channel bit—that was COLD…real cold.
OK, did not know about Bennets wife being sick. Well what do you expect they had retardant dumped within yards. Another person down with illness. It goes on. You can get sick learning of all the sick here.
Well my take was that Bennett saw some crew doing a burnout along the north side of Glen Isla–he would have seen if there was a dozer there as well and what ever else was going on. I think he has enough information that JD or Putnam ought to interview him. He wants to talk but of course talking to me does not help much. We need someone of interview reputation to talk to him and get it publicly posted.
There is more and more coming to the forefront–amazing that so many years and information keeps trickling in.
Charlie… thanks for the additional information.
I’m going to assume, then, that he ( Mr. Bennett ) really hasn’t said ( so far, anyway ) what TIME he thought he saw this ‘burnout’ taking place.
That’s all I wanted to know.
Correction… that is ( obviously ) not ALL I would like to know about this reported ‘burnout’ ( an idea of what TIME he saw what he says he saw )… but that was just one of the simple question I asked up above.
So thanks again for the additional information.
I did comment on what I heard from Mr. Bennet and believe it to be true. What I really hoped by commenting was to encourage someone of good reputation and hearing to talk to Bennett. If Joy does, she is of good reputation and excellent memory–maybe will even tape record to be absolutely sure.
It does show how cursory the investigation was. You would have thought every person on that fire line would have been interviewed. There is another man that saw much and as well stayed the whole fire. Joy had talked to him. He too wanted to be interviewed but never was.
Thoughts on why BLM wants to charge Joy an enormous amount 800 for an FOIA. There was a witness and I heard him say a BLM guy was barking out orders on the North end of the fire at Peeples Valley. Looks like for some reason BLM honchos want their name out of the debacle, and despite their saying the fire was not on BLM lands (the people’s of USA property) then I qestion why supposedly that Peeples Valley says they have no record of Yarnell Fire Incident, that BLM took their records. How is that possible or if that is true why? Maybe Gary Olsen being a federal investigator could shed some light on that fog.
Ok, just a bit more about Ali–she wants to meet Joy. Ali was Clostest to BS ranch right across from Bruce Brown. She lost everything,even her prized dogs. She was one of those that did get her home replaced==I hope it was ok for her. This tragedy was only due to neglect–neglect of a local fire department along with Peeples Valley that refused because it was allegedly out of their jurisdiction. When did jurisdiction trump doing the right thing? How can you have jurisdiction questions when to allow a simple lighting strike to continue is apt to destroy a complete city and risk lives as will. Well it did destroy the city and it did kill many. How has society now come to define things in terms of jurisdiction when it comes to a 9-11 situation? When I mentioned that as a cowboy and miner kid, I helped my dad contain burning trees that had been struck with lightening, I was made to understand that if I did that today I would be arrested and incarcerated. This is the new mind fuck but people seem to think it is the best for the world.
Charlie says
NOVEMBER 23, 2016 AT 10:27 PM
Ok, just a bit more about Ali–she wants to meet Joy.
MY REPLY- I have heard alot about her—is she there now to ask questions? When did she say she wants to meet up?
I did get in quiet that nobody better be thinking to go on top of the Weavers 11-29-16 even on private land because of WHO but I cannot say WHO but because of WHO…there more than likely will be security or YCSO and so you won’t see me at the lone ocotillo trail off the Cloudcroft ammendment area…swing by and wave to Sonny though…he is near to the first part of the park’s mountaintop…I do know locals will be taking pics of the shuttle buses that shuttle in the officials and loved ones for their event..no surprise there…since Glen Ilah is going to be the hot spot to see them all…
One word: Snipers.
If Vice President Joe Biden saw fit to attend the memorial service… then it is very likely he will be attending this ‘dedication’ as well.
I also wonder if any of the ‘movie’ people will be there… maybe even ‘filming’?
It would not surprise me at all, when the film finally comes out, that it doesn’t contain at least SOME ‘footage’ of this actual ‘dedication’ event… even if it’s just the ‘undercrawl’ for the CREDITS at the end of the ‘fillum’.
Dedication of the trail Joy and Sonny came down? Ha it was quite strange when we hiked up there early on and found that the trail was the exact way we escaped the fire. They need to dedicate the trail to the Yarnell Hikers to be proper about it all. Of course we know that will never happen because the Hikers have been a problem to the cover up that those in the political realm want. What is sad most of them know this whole thing as presented is a farce–a game and an attempt to cover up the world’s worse fire fighting debacle. The three stooges would have done as well as what we saw in the Yarnell fire fighting effort. Maybe they would not have killed the 19 though.
Followup…
Just on the wild chance that someone might take what I said above completely out of context… here is a clarification…
Joy posted a message ( above ) saying she has heard that because of WHO might be attending the dedication… there would more than likely be security and/or YCSO in evidence…
>> On November 23, 2016 at 10:57 pm, Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I did get in quiet that nobody better be thinking to go on
>> top of the Weavers 11-29-16 even on private land because of
>> WHO but I cannot say WHO but because of WHO… there
>> more than likely will be security or YCSO…
My ‘Reply’ above was just ‘acknowledging’ this security-related statement of hers, and was then ‘adding on’ to it and suggesting that if the WHO she is referring to might be Vice President Joe Biden ( who attended the original memorial service ), then it could be expected that some amount of Secret Service personnel would probably also be there.
And yes… it would be standard protocol for some of those Secret Service
personnel assigned to protect the Vice President to be ‘snipers’.
That would be my mistake–Howard saw no burning operation–what he saw was a preparation for a burning operation. On Saturday he did see the dozer working a path along the North Side of Glen Isla and Joy wrote down the exact thing he saw since our visit with him yesterday. The experts will tell us if they were working a line on the North side of Yarnell then the next step would be a back burn or burn out there.
Howard did watch two jumbo jet loads of retardant drops but he observed that they did little or nothing to stop the fire. The fire just advanced as if the retardant had no effect. This goes along with what Dr. Ted Putnam says about retardant dumps–often they are approximately useless, especially when wind is pushing the fire such as in Yarnell. It seems that the use of retardant is best done behind the winds to keep the fire from backing up. But foreward progress of a fire, especially with breezes will have very little if any effect in stopping a wild fire.
It will line some pockets and perhaps ruin some health when near a city. I am certain the wild land fire fighters will discuss this use of retardant and what they understand to be its use and how effective they have seen its use.
Reply to Charlie post on November 27, 2016 at 11:40 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> That would be my mistake–Howard saw no burning operation–what he
>> saw was a preparation for a burning operation.
>>
>> On Saturday he did see the dozer working a path along the North Side
>> of Glen Isla and Joy wrote down the exact thing he saw since our
>> visit with him yesterday.
There is no ( other ) evidence I know of that even suggests any ‘dozers’ were ordered, present, or being used in any way by Arizona Forestry’s ICT4 Russ Shumate at any time on Saturday, June 29, 2013, as part of his ‘initial attack’ against the Yarnell Hill Fire.
To the contrary… even former Yarnell Fire Department Chief Peter Andersen ( who lives right on Lakewood Drive in Glen Ilah ) told investigative reporter John Dougherty that ( in his opinion ) there SHOULD have been ‘dozer work’ being done on Saturday… but there was NOT.
From John Dougherty’s original in-person video interview with former Yarnell Fire Department Chief ( and Glen Ilah resident ) Peter Andersen…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State
Published: October 17, 2013 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/
At +1:31 into John Dougherty’s video interview with former Yarnell Fire Department ( YFD ) Chief Peter Andersen…
—————————————————————————————
Interviewer John Dougherty: Did you feel like they just wanted to let it burn?
Former YFD Chief Peter Andersen: Yea… actually. I did.
Interviewer John Dougherty: Describe that… why did you think they just wanted to let it burn?
Former YFD Chief Peter Andersen: Because I told several of the people ( managing the fire ) that our prevailing winds up here come from the southwest, typically, and they don’t start up in the morning until between 8:00 and 9:00 o’clock. I said… this being summertime… that’ll give you three hours free without wind at your backs to be able to get this thing under control.
My wife and I come out here and have our coffee in the morning.
We’re out here from maybe 6:45 or 7:00 o’clock… and at 8:03 Granite Mountain Hotshots’ two buggies went by.
Right after they went by… the leaves started to blow.
I just shook my head.
They didn’t listen to me.
Interviewer John Dougherty: They got here too late?
Former YFD Chief Peter Andersen: Too LITTLE, too late.
They got dozers out there… ah… we built an emergency escape route for Yarnell in case there was a burnout like this and people were unable to get out.
We had an emergency escape route for either Yarnell to get out through Glen Ilah or Glen Ilah to get out through Yarnell… and it was back there… well… it went through that area below the Shrine… west of the Shrine… and they had dozers back there widening that ( on Sunday ) so that it would create a fire break.
Too little, too LATE, man.
You shoulda been done doin’ all that Saturday morning.
—————————————————————————————–
“…Too little, too LATE, man. ( the dozer work on SUNDAY ).
You shoulda been done doin’ all that SATURDAY…”
Arizona Forestry’s ICT4 Russ Shumate also specifically testified to ADOSH that he did NOT do ( or order ) any ‘dozer work’ on Saturday…
From Russ Shumates second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on October 18, 2013, at the point in the interview where the ADOSH investigators were asking him what he did on Saturday night, AFTER the fire had ‘escaped’ initial attack…
—————————————————————————————-
1355 A: I started looking at structure protection. Uh,
1356 while I wasn’t taking any direct action on fuel modifications, I wasn’t putting
1357 dozer line in. I had guys out reconning to create plans for the next day’s shift
1358 that would involve all that. We were looking at roads to bulldoze and burn off
1359 and old fuel breaks uh, and they were just getting the lay of the land to find
1360 out where the houses were gonna be so they could start creating a plan for the
1361 incoming organization to run with the next day.
—————————————————————————————-
Russ Shumate told ADOSH…
“…I wasn’t putting dozer line in… We were LOOKING at roads to bulldoze and burn off and old fuel breaks uh, and they were just getting the lay of the land ( on Saturday night ).”
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> The experts will tell us if they were working a line on the North side
>> of Yarnell then the next step would be a back burn or burn out there.
That WAS part of SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ‘plan’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013… but according to a lot of already-existing evidence there was no such ‘plan’ at any time on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Howard did watch two jumbo jet loads of retardant drops but he
>> observed that they did little or nothing to stop the fire. The fire
>> just advanced as if the retardant had no effect.
Yes… but ( again )… that would have been Sunday afternoon ( not Saturday ).
There were no VLATS over the Yarnell Hill Fire until Sunday, June 30, 2013 and the first VLAT to be used on the Yarnell Hill Fire didn’t ‘arrive’ in the Yarnell airspace until right around 11:50 AM on Sunday… just before ‘Bravo 33’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived ( at 11:58 AM ) to relieve ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins so he could go refuel.
Correction for above.
Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark were in ‘Bravo 3’ ( not ‘Bravo 33’ ).
‘Bravo 33’ would not arrive over Yarnell until exactly 2:50 PM that Sunday, and that was the aircraft that contained Thomas French, John Burfiend and ‘trainee’ Clint Cross.
From Bravo 33’s own ‘Aircraft Log’ in the ‘I-Dispatch Records.pdf’ document…
———————————————————————-
Timer Log Date: 6/30/2013 2:50:01 PM
Dispatcher: ALH
Log Entry: OK: TRANSITIONING WITH BRAVO 3 OVER THE INCIDENT
———————————————————————-
LOCAL NOTIFICATION:
ADOT Response:
Thank you for contacting the Arizona Department of Transportation.
Please contact Tricia Lewis, Sr. Community Relations Officer 928-606-2420.
11/23/2016 10:01:02 AM
I just hung up the phone with her 18:29pm (11:55 minute call)
you can see her here on 4 of 5 page 3rd one in…
https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/partnering/16-100-2015-partnering-excellence-award-all-winners.pdf?sfvrsn=2
They are closing highway 89 going down on November 29th- 2 way lane so you can go up and down on the UP part…and not have to reroute to Hillside locals.
before 9am is the private moment for loved ones event not on highway 89 and the dedication is at 9am with Governor Doug Ducey and Senator John McCain on hwy 89.
after ceremony is over they will open later that day to the PUBLIC.
INVITE EXPLAINS PARKING- which is not on hwy 89- they are being shuttled into that parking lot area-
This notification should help people who flew in to hike the trail 11-29-16 that you won’t be able to go to the parking lot until late day however there is always the hikers that can tell you other legal access aside from their trails but if you have any further ADOT inquiries please call her but I think I answered your inquiries—like I said to Tricia (terrific personality she has) but like I said to her when she asked which loved ones I know—rest assured the ones I know I still have not name dropped you- you can thank my time in the film industry for knowing discernment there-
Travis Carter is who her husband knew…see how small town this is…I hope this event is a healing time for all affected…I know how some loved ones feel on the topic…I do think this event is not for me…I may go up to the private properties and peak at the action since it is around the corner from Sonny…
Ok, so i did met Ali–blond gal, first home to burn — she lost two of her treasures–her dogs. Like her kids in this case–she has never been married. I told her I been married 6 times and 6 or 7 heart attacks from that so not advisable to marry. At least not in my case.
Whew to loose your good dogs burned to a crisp=she did not have time only seconds and the fire was upon her so her dogs were goners since she was ushered out so quickly. Good lord of the Irish and these guys play games with the people of Yarnell?
The fire chief of Yarnell lied to Joy. Bob Brandon is a fire fighter with Peeples Valley and if that man does not know that then he is senile. Joy recorded all his conversation so that he says he has no records about the Yarnell fire then he better get them. See, he can not skirt the law even if he is a big shot in Peeples Valley. But she also has him on record as saying the reason he puts down a Type 5 instead of a Type 6 is because he gets more money that way. When Joy said you do not have a Type 5 engine he said that is right. I was there with my bad hearing but I heard that. Is that not fraud? I don’t know but it sounds bad playing things that way.
I meant to say the chief of Peeples Valley. I don’t know how the chief of Yarnell is reporting to Joy. He has done a lot of delays, same as Peeples Valley, maybe even worse. What is the hold up? Why can they not share with the public what they do since they work for the public. Chief Ben Palm did not meet Joy when he promised and she was there ten minutes early to talk with him. What is so scary about Joy? Still she has no FOIA information from the local fire department either on the Yarnell fire or the Tendrfoot fire. What gives. Are they hiding something.
Consider the Prescott Fire Department held back nothing. The Sheriff Department held back nothing. Congress and Wickenburg Fire Departments were quick with FOIA information. So now why the anxiety among the Peeples Valley and Yarnell Departments?
All I can think, maybe Gary will correct me since he is a true investigator–these fellows are hiding something incriminating. Can they take the fifth and keep info from the public?
You can only invoke your 5th amendment rights against ‘self-incrimination’ if you have actually been CHARGED with something.
Public Servants who are the ‘gatekeepers’ to records or documents in their agency’s possession CANNOT withhold them from valid ‘Open Records’ requests just because THEY think there is information in them that might be damaging and/or embarrassing to THEM.
That’s not how ‘Open Records’ laws work ( and for a good reason ).
WTKTT is right.
I was almost right.
You can also be ‘under investigation’ ( and not-as-yet actually CHARGED with anything ) and still invoke your 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination.
We all remember the tobacco executives all ‘appearing’ before that congressional committee and each and every one of them ‘invoking the 5th amendment’ for each and every question they were being asked.
But you still CANNOT refuse to supply ‘Public Documents’ requested of the public agency you might happen to be involved with just because you think THOSE requested ‘Public Documents’ might be damaging and/or embarrassing to you, personally.
Thanks WTKTT for the clarification and information. So many of the public do not know they have a right to this information. Seems that the public servants Joy has been partitioning for FOIA information do not know the citizen rights and are quick to deny the right to FOIA. Joy is not one citizen to deny a right she has and is on this like a fly on nasty.
We do know that there are quite a few now visiting this sight–WTKTT and Gary Olson are giving them some very factual information–something I think some regret that the public gets to know. That old boy in the wizard of OZ with his loud speaker had the curtain drawn and the crowd does see him for who he really is, not who he wanted to be seen as.
Charlie said:Still she has no FOIA information from the local fire department either on the Yarnell fire or the Tendrfoot fire. What gives. Are they hiding something.
MY REPLY: I have tenderfoot data from Peeples Valley and YFD and I have YFD data from first fire- what I lack is a commercial request I placed…and Peeples Valley first fire data…
The locals come to me…they wanted to know the grant that was approved for $60,000 to cover the deficit for 2016-2017 for YFD was that grant funds in turn the actual funds that paid for the ambulance so I did ask a foia today on some other areas only because the Gila River Indians inquiries…because they were asked for grant monies to help YFD via different district Jack Smith not Simmons…so it is just getting the public data to match accounts is all…and there is a direct reason I cannot publicly disclose the interest in the ADC data…let us sing “it’s a small world…after all…”
Sonny said: So now why the anxiety among the Peeples Valley and Yarnell Departments?
-there should be nothing to be anxious about…if there is nothing to be anxious about.
MY REPLY: I think because these people live good ethical lives Sonny and then here comes a person asking for records and they took the role on like I am gathering to get data…like I am some sort of against them and that is not the case just getting public records…and every area has its purpose and like wwtktt brought up to forefront why adc foia…I have a reason but cannot mention public but it is separate than what you presented…
Good ethics is not withholding public information or calling the sheriff department on you when you nicely and quietly asked only for public information. Good ethics is not using every excuse to shirk your duties as a public servant. These people are acting like public gods not servants–they forget their checks are taken directly from the taxpayer–the people they serve. No, I see no excuse for their intolerable behavior.
Perhaps their lawyers will reprimand them, if not a suit is in order and a judge surely will.
Sonny- you mean Allison “Ali” Mazur
She lives near the Helms (You have the Helms than Vanessa than Ali—)…How did you run into her…
oh I know:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10206243652560536&id=1541940503
You are right- she was among the many who had to leave all or some of their pets behind as they rushed to get away from the dense deadly smoke and wall of flames.
her is her online story done by Dodder:
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2015/jan/17/yarnell-cats-prove-some-do-have-more-than-one-lif/
did she have photos or video or a time stamp of when she left area…as the first burned…I have a decent timeline for Deer Track and Foothills but just wondering did she mention it
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 22, 2016 at 10:12 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> That article forgot to mention praise to adc prison crew who are there right now
>> doing an excellent job. Sent pics to a few of you..and yes a foia already submitted…
I’m not sure why you would want to submit an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request and/or a Federal level ‘Freedom of Information Act’ ( FOIA ) request just related to the ‘Arizona Department of Corrections’ involvement with the development of this new ‘State Park’.
It has never been a secret at all that ‘Arizona Correctional Industries’ has been ( and continues to be ) heavily involved in the ‘development’ of this new Arizona State Park.
If they are ‘there now’… it is probably because they are finishing up the installation of the ‘benches’ and the ‘signage’ for the park… which ACI has always been responsible for.
‘ACI’ stands for ‘Arizona Correctional Industries’ and refers to the ‘businesses’ that are run by the Arizona Department of Corrections and ‘staffed’ with inmates.
From the ‘Park Development’ page at the new Arizona State Parks website
for this ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’…
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/park-development
———————————————————————————-
On April 20, 2016 workers from Arizona State Parks and Arizona Correctional Industries ( ACI ) began the work of protecting and preserving the Fatality Site. The installation of 19 gabion baskets filled with local rock has also begun.
———————————————————————————-
The ‘Powerpoint’ presentation that was shown at the June 22, 2016 Board meeting…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/YHMSB_Presentation06-22-16.pdf
From that Powerpoint… on a photo of the ‘Gabion’ ‘steel cage baskets’ being transported out to the deployment site…
———————————————————————————-
Baskets were brought to the site for final installation by Arizona State Parks and ACI ( Arizona Correctional Industries ) work crews.
———————————————————————————-
Another photo next to that one shows inmates in their ‘orange’ attire ( with the letters ACI printed on them ) filling the ‘baskets’ with rocks out at the deployment site.
On PDF page 27 of that ‘presentation’… it lists the various ‘tasks’ that were remaining to be done ( as of June, 2016 ), and WHO was going to be responsible for doing what.
Arizona Correctional Industries remained heavily ‘involved’ in the completion of ‘the project’ and primarily responsible for the delivery and installation of the ‘Observation Deck’ and the ‘Park Signage’…
———————————————————————————-
– Observation Deck
Steel structure, with perforated metal roof, surface material.
Transport materials to site / Install.
Arizona Correctional Industries ( ACI ).
– Master Road Sign
4′ x 6′ concrete, metal and stone sign on base.
Arizona Correctional Industries ( ACI ).
– Benches ( 12 )
Metal laser cut benches.
Transport / install at site.
Arizona Correctional Industries ( ACI ).
– Interpretive Signs ( 6 )
– Observation Deck Signs ( 2 )
– Trailhead Signes ( 2 )
– Deployment Site Sign ( 1 )
Fabrication / transport to site / install included
Arizona Correctional Industries ( ACI ).
———————————————————————————-
thank you- that is all I needed to know— thank you….
ACI–Slave labor industries of america–We are now becoming like China–fucking over our prisoners with out paying them a fair wage. An abomination to a free society.
I do hope Ali comes on and tells us her story. Not something like the Donut thing but real–something that tore her heart out–something that people know little about, and even Fernanda did not know. You think Donut suffered–you need to know about Ali.
I told Joy to share everything with JD, WTKTT, et. al. and they will share with all of us. It is great to know the facts of things even if the main people that run the shows do not want you to know.
Joy is home with her husband John and his brother Nick. John and Nick are always there and Joy always on Thanksgiving goes there and cooks them a dinner. See Joy is a Chef and likes to do that every Thanksgiving.
Meantime my Daughter Melissa put 400 in the bank for me to have a good Thanksgiving dinner. Now can you beat a daughter like that? See I brought them all up in the wilds, but they still love me. See the Irish Gods bless hell out of me–well the main one is a Goddess–did change monkeys into humans by screwing around with DNA. A few miners and a few fire fighters got fucked though and continue to be monkeys. Well if they would petition Dana ( a beautiful Irish Goddess), then they might get their problem addressed.
Ok so you all want to know what the heart attack is like. Well since I have had 6–did Joy say seven? then I ought to be up on this subject. Likely some of you have had at least one or two so you will know I am straight.
The last one, I knew I was on it. I knew before this as well.
So I fell out of bed onto the hardwood floor. You do not feel nothing doing that only the stabbing pain in your chest. I told Joy, I am having a heart attack, bring me my pants, since I don’t want to go in naked. She did and made the effort to get them on–and I really am at that point not giving a shit if I have pants or not. Joy is in a panic, calls my daughter and she calls 911. It might be a bad idea in Yarnell–the EMT firefighter at 6am–Joy says he is barely awake. And that is for sure since he stabbed me numerous times trying to find a vein. I could hear them calling someone, maybe a doctor for instructions but I am in such excruciating pain I will have to rely on Joy’s testimony of events. I do know that the pain of the heat attack was increased every time that man tried to get that big needle in my vein. Joy says there was a big puddle of blood left on the floor from his attempts.
Either way all I wanted to do was get to the hospital where a doctor might cut into me and relieve the pain. Well on the copter ride, Joy was already in Prescott when she saw the copter fly overhead. Not only did they pussyfoot around at the helipad here in Yarnell, writing down shit on a clip board but when we dropped down at the hospital I noted they were doing the same things–like taking notes on a clip board and all the hell I want to do is get inside the hospital. Shit, Joy is slow in the car, but if I had some one that drives like I do, then I would have beat the copter ride by at least 15 minutes. Well the Doc did say I had 30 minutes till death do I depart, so maybe those EMT pilots knew that and just did not mind pushing the limit–or was it because I was not Hillary, Trump or Obama?
Should I have gratitude? It is a question in my own mind. To the Irish Goddess Dana–likely since I was not the one in charge of handling my body at that time. But for the EMT local and the pilots that had me strapped on a board–I just do not know.
Forgot to mention, that Doctor, same one that did the last attack–when I was sent to Hospice–when I told him I was ready to go just after they reamed the blood clots and expanded the stents, told me yes– I will let you go tomorrow since we know you already. He did as promised, did a good job–I played pool with Billy at the legion the next day in the evening–Joy had gone home to her husband– I won all but one game and I am still alive. Could have spent ten more days in the hospital–Joy hugged a few as I got out since their loved ones succumbed and her loved one did not.
The point is do not fuck around writing on a clip board if you have a heart attack victim aboard. Get that boy or girl inside to the doctor. You can not believe how quick that doc grabbed his knives and went to work. He had every nurse on me like flies on sugar and man o man I never seen such quick action. Football fans would have loved his speed and agility. I appreciated it as well and told him so. It is good to have a doctor like that ready to move fast when he has to.
That Doc did save my live and I will post his name or Joy will in case you have a heart attack and need someone that will save your life.
D’antonio, MD was the person who saved you twice…
Yavapai Regional Medical Center – West Campus
1003 Willow Creek Rd, Prescott AZ, 86301
might not want to let you know Sonny but he has a 3 out of 5 star rating..
I didn’t have time to look up his rating, but i was on the 3 star list since I am in the month that is supposd to be my last. I am still ticking but the month isn’t out yet. Ha. I have to smile at all this, The Irish God’s do too.
they moved fast Sonny because you had all the signs of a zombie-
someone is having a interesting night—let me correct your recollection of the heart attack Sonny…Now… Sonny has done… in high times… Irish moments …of walking around as he stated but that day he did not and it did not happen such way…
I had to go to the doctor and chiro that day 11-11 Veterans Day and like clock work if I am going to do something for myself then here comes Sonny with something creative…he did not fall out of bed for I was outside looking in….more like placed himself in a soft collapse there “thinking” I was not seeing…He has told me he wants to die at home not in hospice and he does not want YFD at his home and so he was violently vomitng and I just figured he had a “high” time hours before and he was not taking his meds because in recent times he took hard head blow as he tripped and went down bumping his head and he never went to have it checked out instead he stopped his meds because they are blood thinners…and he took niacin…than weeks go by and the stents clotted up without the meds…”end of story” how he keeps having these heart attacks…by the way he was dressed 11-11-16 for the record…for he wanted me to DRIVE him to Phnx VA with this heart attack from Yarnell…By the way I was not in a panic but I was nervous because I was watching a person I actually care about turning pallid yellow in some areas…pure white in other areas with vessels showing and his arms legs hands and feet were turning blue purple black…lack of communication in an relentless manner…the distinctive acetone odor to his breath that happens when dying..rasping breath…etc…I did not panic but I know how Sonny gets and I was not going to be responsible for the 911 call and then him give me the hate as I have seen over time…I did call his daughter because her and I have a pact that anytime he is not well she will be the 911 caller knowing how he is yet that day and the time of day (early) she had me do the call since I knew the address by heart and I did call local first than 911 but Sonny is right…the call did awake the crew…due to the fluid choice his veins were having problems come IV insert and it would roll and so yes they tried more than once..Sonny was in such intense pain that he had all the signs of dying…There was Sonny’s blood everywhere on his clothes…sheets and floor…and yes alot…that was weird that I was at Wolf Creek area when FINALLY here came Sonny above me in the Native Air copter..that seem like a long time…..I do not think it was because you were not a candidate to be Prez…next to be Prez or the Prez that caused the delays…
If I was in same spot Sonny…I really would have not allowed you to call 911 on me or had me ambulanced than air vac…I either get driven in or let what happens happen…I LOVE life but I would not want to face what I saw you face…
Actually Joy is home with Sonny and mine ol’ dog the i.m. mascot Mae West…my husband works real late…or in other words real early…I will see him Thursday- Nick just got here and is doing his calisthenics—-thanks for my update of my life though…I not only cook for them Sonny but many others and I never have stopped…I normally take it to them but this year it is working out differently…
Joy was a chef but you never lose it…most cannot take a turkey, debone it than sew it back together to look like a boned turkey but stuff it with succulent stuffing…yum…man you said 300…no wonder you are gonna have a GREAT Holiday…
your daughter (actually all your children) are fantastic…but then again so are you 🙂
HAPPY THANKSGIVING IM FOLKS!
Yes it was pleasure my dogs met me as I came home. Coco, Agnes and Cowboy–like my second bunch of kids. When I saw them I though of Ali–she came home and her dogs had been killed by the Yarnell fire and she described their deaths how they were on their backs and paws drawn up to their bodies. She is not happy that so little time was given her that she could not even save her babies–her poor dogs. And we hear of trauma–and we wonder how these events were never told.
um…wake up Sonny…her story was told to the world…where have you been….buy having heart attacks?
Thanks for thoughts Joy, but the only think fantastic here on my account is that I continue to survive and enjoying every bit of it. I think I will do well on the otherside too. But then I think if the word fantastic were used we would have to add a number of positive adjectives to describe you. It has been a labor of love you continue to do in the work toward getting at the truth of Yarnell. If anyone deserves an award for heroism it would be Joy. Well there are a number of others here as well deserving of the award. These individuals have not been deterred in their quest for what is right and proper to do. Jesus Christ (JC) and Joy Collura (JC) the second JC have had to take a licking because of their fight against the money changer MC’s more like MF’s.
I see the light side of things and it is amusing all the fan fare such as we see on the 29th coming up. The simple life is more what I like–and what I would like is that the truth be spoken there so that future wild land fire fighter lives would be saved, mucho tax dollars saved, retardant health issues and deaths of over 100 Yarnell residents and scores more of ill people issues addressed as well as why wild land fire fighters deserve better bosses and better pay.
But like many of you here know that is not the issue. They instead will wave political flags and address the heroism of 19 men who died not because of their bosses stupidity, but because they were going to do what they do–protect structures.
See to tell the truth in this Yarnell debacle would change too much. First some people that are managing fires would be up to scrutiny. In fact why they let a lightening fire go and why that area was restricted two weeks before as an extreme fire danger area and yet this thing was not taken care of immediately would be addressed. After all the lackadaisical attitude of taking care of a simple lightening strike cost those 19 lives and the over 100 here in Yanell as I believe from a direct result of the hundreds of thousands of garbage chemicals dumped near our residences. Good god, some people bareled esca;ped, some with blisters and burning clothes and some loosing their pets. How can this happen in an efficient and knowledgeable fire management group?
So who will go there and listen to a political group that will accomplish nothing except to promote the wrongdoers and wrongdoing that went on those days between Friday June 28,2013 and death day Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Reply to Woodsman post on November 22, 2016 at 4:50 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I should say I’m doubtful that a non-framed portable water tank or ‘pumpkin’
>> (they’re orange & roundish) was setup at the BSR as a water source for
>> helicopter bucket work.
You can remain as ‘doubtful’ as you like… but that is EXACTLY what Arizona Forestry employee and Yarnell Fire IC ( on Saturday, June 29, 2013 ) Russ Shumate himself SAID they ( the pumpkins ) were ‘for’ when he finally got around to even considering using BLM Helicopter N14HX for ‘bucket drops’ ( which it was ready to do all day long but Shumate ignored that option until it was too late to make any difference that Saturday ).
From Russ Shumate’s first ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on August 8, 2013…
———————————————————————————-
2188 Q1: We had a water tank though – a temporary water tank there for the helicopter?
2189
2190 A: I think Yarnell set up the folded tank in town. I know it was up pumpkin that
2191 got set up at that.
2192
2193 Q1: Okay, that sounds about right. That’s what they were trying to tell me and I’m
2194 trying to figure out where – because we went out to that ranch house – the
2195 Helms ranch house. We hiked up the ridge and everything so, I was trying to
2196 think. Did you assign Yarnell those duties or did Chief Koile?
2197
2198 A: Correct. I – I ordered – I ordered up their (YFD) tender to do that because the
2199 discussion was are we gonna use Bambi buckets or crew shuttle. So I started
2200 that operation to give is options and we just ended up not using Bambi bucket
2201 operations we geared up for sling loaded crew shuttle. But that, we still set
2202 them up for potentially use by the incoming operations the next day.
———————————————————————————-
So there is Russ Shumate confirming ( to ADOSH ) that the reason he wanted the pumpkins set up is because after the reports from the 6 members of the DOC Lewis Crew that the fire was ‘getting away from them’ up on the ridge… he was now ‘considering’ whether to finally use BLM Helicopter for ‘drops’ or use it for additional ‘crew shuttle’ up to the ridge… and he wanted the ‘option’ of doing ‘bucket drops’, if needed. So that’s why he told the Yarnell Fire Department ‘tender’ to immediately start setting up the TWO ‘pumpkins’… one just east of Highway 89 and just south of the Ranch House Restaurant… and the other one closer to the fire… out at at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
But then… in his own ( signed ) ‘Unit Log’… Russ Shumate contradicts this testimony to ADOSH.
He still confirms that the REASON he wanted the ‘pumpkins’ set up was to use them for possible ‘bucket drops’… but now he says that he didn’t even consider that ‘option’ until AFTER he had already decided to deliver ‘bladder bags’ to the DOC Lewis Crew up on the ridge… and that it was DURING the delivery of these ‘bladder bags’ ( and while Helicopter N14HX was just ‘hovering’ directly over the active fire ) that the fire ‘flared up’ and JUMPED over the two-track road.
So here is the part of Shumate’s ‘Unit Log’ where he is describing the decisions he made AFTER the fire ‘slopped over’ the two-track road during the delivery of the ‘bladder bags’…
From Russ Shumate’s own ( signed ) ‘Unit Log’…
———————————————————————————-
1600
Spot across the road was established and crews were having a difficult time hooking it.
Slop was approximately 1-2 acres. Ordered AA and SEATS to launch. Ordered YFD
Water Tender to utilize for creation of a dip site for potential bucket work.
———————————————————————————–
Key sentence…
“Ordered YFD Water Tender to utilize for creation of a dip site for potential bucket work.”
So there is Russ Shumate’s confirmation that the only reason he told the Yarnell Fire Department to set up those two ‘pumpkins’ was for “potential bucket work”.
Woodsman. ..
What other reason would it be there because I have first hand account it was there and putting aside testimonies…why would the pumpkin be there…it wasnt Autumn or Halloween season 🎃. ..i am interested in your reply…
Other reasons a portable water tank would be set up is for pump & hoselay for structure protection and/or support of a firing operation. Thanks for catching my second insinuation.
Woodsman
I agree and matches data and eyewitness account Howard B.
I comprehended it Woodsman because I go by not yet public data and wwtktt firmly abides already public data. Whereas I share how I can and when I can because I have vultures kettling around me…man you all cant believe the division and separation the local foias have cost me but after data I just learned my next foia is arlon rice.
Woodsman. I do have a formal foia in on exact topic you touched. I think I did that one as a commercial one too…
Woodsman makes sense in one way for a fireing operation on the North Side of Glen Isla. Accroding to Howard Bennett, there was already a firing operation going on on the N side of Glen Isla.–that may have been seen by Bruce Brown as well. However, unlike Howard, Bruce has been pretty quiet about what he witnessed. They are next door neighbors and live right on the edge of Glen Isla North and Bruce’ and Howard back yards are the open space below the Helms BS ranch. In fact about 50 yards across the street from Bruce’s back yard is the Gate off Boulder Springs Trail.
If Howard’s testimony that he was watching a burn out along there, then that fire would have also turned up toward Helm’s cutting off any excape route below the Helms and to the South of their BS BS= Boulder Springs. When the wind whipped SSE then it would go back toward the main of Glen Isla–and would also explain why almost all of Candy Lane was destroyed.
See I could not understand why when we got back to Foothills where my old station wagon had been parked when we left to hike up to the fire edge at 3:30 that morning, that the fire was already almost upon us. In fact the large tree we were parked under was completely burned away some ten or 15 minutes later as was the house directly across the street. I knew we should have had nearly an hour the way we descended before any fire came our way but then a burn out along the north side of Glen Isla would explain why people were seeing the fire already upon them.
The pumpkin though seems like would have been set farther down near Glen Isla if it were for a burnout on the North side of Glen Isla? It is after all maybe a half mile up that dirt road to the BS ranch house with almost all open range between and plenty of brush so the road itself would have been dangerous to travel with a burn out below.
To me it would seem the pumpkin would have been put there explicitly to protect the BS ranch itself. Does that make sense since the distance and problem to get to it might be considered?
Either way, we wonder why Howard B and Bruce B had not been contacted considering that they both witnessed the goings on on the North Side of Glen Isla–both guys stayed the whole fire thing out.
Reply to Charlie post on November 23, 2016 at 9:22 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Woodsman makes sense in one way for a fireing operation
>> on the North Side of Glen Isla. Accroding to Howard Bennett,
>> there was already a firing operation going on on the N side
>> of Glen Isla.–that may have been seen by Bruce Brown as well.
Charlie… see a longer ‘Reply’ up above ( that also has some important questions in it about this )…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-402618
Wtktt,
You have more faith in the veracity of the statements of those interviewed after the fact than I do. I’m clear on what Shumate said. Tell me what water sources were available for dip sites in proximity to the YHF? Say a 2 mile radius. I may be completely wrong but I do want to point out that dipping from a pumpkin is sort of a last resort absent other simpler conventional surface water sources.
Reply to Woodsman post on November 23, 2016 at 5:06 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Wtktt,
>> You have more faith in the veracity of the statements of those
>> interviewed after the fact than I do.
Make no mistake… my ‘faith in the veracity’ of ANYONE’S ‘statements’ with regards to this National Historic Tragedy remains completely in the ‘skeptical’ category.
All I am pointing out to you is what Russ Shumate TOLD the ‘investigators’… and what he also said in his own ( official ) ‘Unit Log’.
And I have also already pointed out that even Russ Shumate CONTRADICTS himself regarding WHEN he finally stopped ignoring BLM IC Dean Fernandez’s ‘advice’ and finally asked the Yarnell Fire Department to set up those pumpkins.
In his ADOSH testimony… Shumate said he ordered the pumpkins to be set up when he was first informed by the DOC Lewis Crew that the fire was ‘creeping’ on them in the later afternoon… and he was then ‘weighing his options’ regarding doing ‘bucket drops’ or delivering ‘bladder bags’.
Then… in his own ‘Unit Log’… Shumate says that he didn’t give the ‘order’ for the pumpkins to be ‘set up’ until AFTER the fire had already ‘escaped’ over the two-track road WHILE BLM Helicopter N14HX had already been hovering directly over the active fire and trying to deliver ‘bladder bags’.
But regardless of Shumate’s OWN ‘contradicting testimony’ about WHEN he actually ( finally ) took BLM IC Dean Fernandez’s advice and asked YFD to ‘set up’ the pumpkins… there isn’t any other ‘evidence’ to suggest there was any other REASON for ‘setting them up’ THAT day ( Saturday ) than for their possible use for possible ‘bucket operations’.
There were NO STRUCTURES ‘threatened’ all day ( and night ) on Saturday.
There were NO PLANS ( on Saturday ) for any ‘burnout operations’.
Shumate testified that he did leave the ‘pumpkins’ set up just in case they *might* be needed for the next operational shift on Sunday… but Shumate was ‘bailing out’ and was going to ‘hand over’ the control of the fire to Arizona Forestry’s Type 2 SHORT team… and he had no idea what they might be planning or whether they would even ‘need’ those pumpkins.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Tell me what water sources were available for dip sites
>> in proximity to the YHF? Say a 2 mile radius.
Within a 2 mile radius of the original lightning strike fire and Russ Shumate’s ‘initial attack’ on Saturday, June 29, 2013?
As far as I know ( and according to ‘Google Maps’ )… None.
The ‘Horseshoe-shaped Pond’ at the ‘Hidden Springs Ranch’ in Peeples Valley that was being used as the primary Helicopter ‘dip site’ on the NEXT day ( Sunday, June 30, 2013 ) was 4.87 miles from the site of the original lightning strike fire.
There appear to have been some square ( man-made ) ‘ponds’ attached to that ‘ranch’ in the ‘flats’ way south of Yarnell ( Owner: Montrose Equities, LLC )… but the closest one of those ‘ponds’ to the actual site of the original lightning strike fire was still 3.17 miles away.
And according to satellite imagery taken just a few months before the Yarnell Hill Fire, I don’t see any ‘open to the air’ swimming pools, either, anywhere in Yarnell or Glen Ilah.
In ASGS ( and ‘Helibase Manager’ ) Brad Zettler’s own ‘Unit Log’… he, himself, says that the ‘Horseshoe Pond’ up in Peeples Valley at the ‘Hidden Springs Ranch’ was the ( quote ) “only water source available that could adequately support the ( Yarnell ) incident”.
Here is the complete entry from Brad Zettler’s ‘Unit Log’ where he ‘confirms’ this…
———————————————————————————–
1245
I went to the helicopter dipsite located at Hidden Springs Ranch in Peeples Valley and I visited with the dipsite manager. They were doing a good job, however, I was concerned about the dipsite location being in close proximity to buildings, powerlines, Highway 89, and an overall congested area ( the intersection of Highway 89 and Hays Ranch Road ). This location was initially selected as it was the only water source available that could adequately support the incident
———————————————————————————–
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I may be completely wrong but I do want to point out that dipping
>> from a pumpkin is sort of a last resort absent other simpler
>> conventional surface water sources.
I think you have just answered your own question(s) about this.
“Absent other simpler conventional surface water sources”.
Setting up a ‘pumpkin’ to use as a ‘dipsite’ for that ‘Initial Attack’ on Saturday at the Boulder Springs Ranch would have made perfect sense.
It was the closest place to where the DOC Lewis Crew was actually performing the ‘Initial Attack’ that was also still totally accessible by standard roads and driveways so the Engines and Water Tenders could keep it filled with water…
…and it offered the shortest ‘flight time’ and ‘turnaround’ time to the fire itself.
But there is no evidence that it was ever used. Not even the NEXT day ( Sunday ).
One of the ‘interesting’ things about all this is that it was Russ Shumate himself who told ADOSH that he, himself, did NOT choose the ‘locations’ for those 2 pumpkins.
Shumate said it was BLM employee Bruce Olsen ( the ‘Duty Officer’ for BLM on Friday who responded to the initial lightning strike along with Shumate ) who actually ‘chose’ the locations for the 2 pumpkins… at some uknown time BEFORE Shumate even got around to telling YFD to go ahead an ‘set them up’.
So it was ( apparently ) Bruce Olsen who chose ( at some unknown time ) the following 2 ‘locations’ for those pumpkins…
1. Just east of Highway 89 and just south of the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’.
2. Right smack in the middle of the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ compound.
One of the pieces of PROOF that Shumate is not lying about this comes from that point in his ADOSH interview where he and the ADOSH investigators had to pause and ‘clear up’ the NAME of the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’.
The ADOSH investigators were asking Shumate about that ‘pumpkin’ that had been ‘set up’ at the ‘Helm Ranch’… but Shumate said he had no idea what they meant by the ‘Helm Ranch’.
It took a few back-and-forths to discover that Shumate only knew that compound by the name ‘Boulder Creek Ranch’… and he had NO IDEA what ‘Helm’ meant, or who ‘Lee and DJ Helm’ were ( the actual owners ).
So that right there seems to be PROOF that Shumate himself certainly never talked to Lee and DJ Helm… or had any idea they were the ‘owners’ of this thing he was calling the ‘Boulder Creek Ranch’.
That would also mean that it was NOT IC Russ Shumate himself who ever talked to Lee and DJ Helm and obtained their ‘permission’ to set up a pumpkin in the middle of their compound.
So either it was just Bruce Olsen… or YFD firemen who obtained the actual ‘permission’ from Lee and DJ Helm to set up a pumpkin on their property.
FEDERAL ( BLM ) employee Bruce Olsen was ( as far as we know ) never interviewed by any ‘investigators’ from either the SAIT or from ADOSH.
HIS ‘story’ remains ‘untold’.
good topic and I will later look through but there is questions from the bleachers… so here they are:
HOW “CLOSE” and “how many times and when” DID SHUMATE (personally) EVER GET TO ACTUAL FLAMES prior to 30 June 2013, 10:22am transfer-of-command)? ALSO, ESPECIALLY FOR WTKTT… WHICH “RANCH HOUSE” is meant with reference to ”Interview with Russ Shumate 8-15-13/9:10am, p5″ Line263… Q2: “So did you go to some spot in – Yarnell that you are famiIiar with, uh? 267… Q2: “Where – where’d you go to, uh? 269… A: I ended up meeting with the BLM duty officer at the ranch house first of all. 292… Q2: And he was in Yarnell and met up there with you? Line290… A: Correct.” WTKTT: Please, duly NOTE: It, most certainly, appears that OLSEN WAS ALREADY THERE… FIRST… AND WAITING (PATIENTLY?) FOR SHUMATE… BLM DID NOT-NOT-NOT HAVE, EITHER, FIRES OR “LAND-ANYWHERE-CLOSE” to that Weaver Ridgetop, where the official time-and-location-of-origin is identified on InciWeb. Also, at what time and
date did Olsen and/or Fernandez, ACTUALLY-PHYSICALLY-PERMANENTLY “move over” to the YHF-ICP at, either Schoolhouse or elsewhere? How LONG had Olsen been in place in Yarnell, aforehand… when did he, first, depart his base at Wickenburg?
wwtktt said: Make no mistake… my ‘faith in the veracity’ of ANYONE’S ‘statements’ with regards to this National Historic Tragedy remains completely in the ‘skeptical’ category.
MY REPLY: EVEN THE HIKERS? (soft smile)
wwtktt said: There were NO PLANS ( on Saturday ) for any ‘burnout operations’.
MY REPLY: we need some missing elements to talk about burnout operations for that weekend…there may be no public data but there is more to the story—
wwtktt said:As far as I know ( and according to ‘Google Maps’ )… None.
MY REPLY- people forget Thompon place which was directly in front of the fire off date creek…so YES there was a HUGE water source very near by—privately I will email you that-
>> Cheerleader said…
>>
>> wwtktt said: Make no mistake… my ‘faith in the veracity’ of
>> ANYONE’S ‘statements’ with regards to this National
>> Historic Tragedy remains completely in the ‘skeptical’ category.
>>
>> MY REPLY: EVEN THE HIKERS? (soft smile)
Yes and No ( soft smile ).
No in the sense that what I meant above was primarily the ‘testimony’ that has been obtained from those that were directly involved in managing the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Yes in the sense that I am someone who always wants to ‘see the evidence’ that someone might be suggesting exists and not just take someone’s word for things.
If there is any evidence that reveals more about what actually happened that weekend… I think it deserves to be ‘public information’… so it can be ‘verified’ ( if possible ).
‘Trust… but VERIFY’.
>> Cheerleader also says…
>>
>> wwtktt said: There were NO PLANS ( on Saturday ) for
>> any ‘burnout operations’.
>>
>> MY REPLY: we need some missing elements to talk
>> about burnout operations for that weekend…there may
>> be no public data but there is more to the story—
This ‘thread’ of discussion was actually about ‘Saturday’ ( NOT ‘Sunday’ ), and the reasons why the ‘pumpkins’ might have been initially ‘set up’ where they were ( late Saturday ).
Are you saying there really is evidence that some ‘burnouts’ were either planned and/or actually executed sometime on SATURDAY… while Russ Shumate was trying to perform his ‘Initial Attack’?
>> Cheerleader also says…
>>
>> wwtktt said:As far as I know ( and according
>> to ‘Google Maps’ )… None.
>>
>> MY REPLY- people forget Thompon place which was directly
>> in front of the fire off date creek…so YES there was a HUGE
>> water source very near by—privately I will email you that-
I’m going to assume you are talking about the ‘Billingsley Reservoir Number Two’?
Parcel number: 201-20-004
Owner: J & G Thompson Family Limited Partnership
Address: Thompson’s Ranch MM5, S. Date Creek Road, Congress, AZ 85332
The ‘lake’ that is there on their property actually has a NAME.
It shows up on maps as ‘Billingsley Reservoir Number Two’.
I wouldn’t say it qualified as ‘very nearby’.
It was 4.1 miles almost due west of the original lightning strike fire.
That actually WAS 7 tenths of a mile closer to the site of the original lightning strike that the ‘Horseshoe Pond’ at the ‘Hidden Springs Ranch’… but much, much lower in elevation. At least the Horseshoe pond was already up at a ‘higher’ elevation at that intersection of Highway 89 and Hays Ranch Road.
But if anyone ( on SATURDAY ) thought that anything up to 4 miles away was a ‘viable’ dip-site for bucket operations… they still would have been better off using the ponds down in the flats south of Yarnell on the ‘Montrose Equities, LLC’ property.
Those ‘ponds’ were 3.17 miles from the original lightning strike fire… and a full mile CLOSER than the Thompson Ranch water source.
We can only assume that when it came time to finally consider doing ‘bucket drops’ on SATURDAY ( not Sunday )… Shumate and others felt that anything more than 2 miles away was inadequate and they decided they better try to get something ‘set up’ much closer… ( because they COULD )… so that the ‘turnaround times’ could be kept at a minimum if/when ‘bucket operations’ were initiated.
Wtktt,
I didn’t intend to suggest that you aren’t performing your due diligence as I think you are & always have.
Immediately after I asked the question of viable surface water sources in a 2 mile radius, I regretted it. I should have said 5 & now I’m sounding as though I’m trying to make the evidence fit my beliefs instead viewing it objectively. By using 2 miles, I didn’t mean to suggest that number is some automatic limit. Distance over ground for aircraft is way different than for resources on the ground. 2 miles 3 or 5, you’re up you’re down, no big deal. Obviously bucket work should select the best dip sites with all factors considered. Dipping from pumpkin is more technical demanding on pilots than pulling from a standard surface water source & I would need a really good reason to do it that way (and you may be right that I’m answering my own question here.) Dipping from a portable tank also requires more moving parts, ie: more committed resources to making that happen…scarce resources.
My natural skepticism says that pumpkin may have had a different planned use than Bambi bucket dipping from rotor-wing aircraft. For one thing, if I’m gonna save a structure or group of structures from destruction by an approaching wildfire, my plan would be to cat line it (dozer push) & light that mother off. Under adverse fuels, weather, & topographic conditions, my choice for delivering the goods on this task (and being able to hold it) would be a type 1 crew, hotshots! AND, I would “plumb it” with pumps/hose to hold it.
Thanks, wtktt. I appreciate all you do with research.
Woodsman
**
** THE ‘SIGNAGE’ AT THE PUBLIC GRANITE MOUNTAIN MEMORIAL STATE PARK
The following article was published just a few days ago, in anticipation of the opening of the new PUBLIC ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’.
The article ‘apparently’ gives us a first glimpse at what some of the ‘signage’ at this new PUBLIC State Park is actually going to SAY about ‘what happened’.
KVOA – News – Tucson
Article Title: Memorial trail, park to honor Granite Mountain Hotshots to open soon
Posted: Nov 17, 2016 10:27 AM CST
Updated: Nov 18, 2016 9:38 AM CST
Written By: Mike Truelsen
http://www.kvoa.com/story/33735534/memorial-trail-park-to-honor-granite-mountain-hotshots-to-open-soon
Get a load of this BULLSHIT…
—————————————————————————
Along the trail are 19 stone plaques honoring each of the fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots and six interpretive signs that tell the story.
Here’s the story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots:
On June 28, 2013, lightning struck a hilltop above the town of Yarnell, Arizona, starting the Yarnell Hill Fire. The 20-member Granite Mountain Hotshots crew was deployed to the site in the early morning hours on June 30.
The crew spent most of the day fighting the fire to save Yarnell, its people, its property, and its land. The fire pushed them back toward a ridge overlooking the town. While the crew worked to reach safety, the fire grew around their position and, ultimately, trapped them, forcing the crew to deploy shelters.
Officials lost radio contact with the crew as the fire consumed their position. It took the lives of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots. The last member, Brendan McDonough, who was serving as the nearby lookout, survived.
—————————————————————————
The fire did NOT ‘push them back toward a ridge’ at ANY time that day.
The crew did not HAVE to ‘work to reach safety’.
They were perfectly safe RIGHT WHERE THEY WERE at 3:50 PM that day.
So the ‘State Park’ really is just going with “The big bad fire just came and got the brave heroes”.
Your tax dollars at work.
Actually… if that ‘fortune cookie’ version of ‘The Yarnell Hill Fire’ blurb printed in that KVOA Tucson News article above really is a ‘preview’ of what the actual Arizona Parks ‘signage’ is going to say to the PUBLIC… then regardless of how you have to admire how someone could fit so much bullshit into so few sentences… the truth is that ‘Arizona Parks’ is NOT doing ‘Brendan McDonough’ any favors here.
Just look at that last sentence of this ‘Story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots’…
“The last member, Brendan McDonough, who was serving as the nearby lookout, survived.
Anyone who does NOT know even the basic details of what went down on Sunday, June 30, 2013, is going to read that last sentence as-is and then immediately ask themselves the same question people were asking immediately following the tragedy…BEFORE any kind of ‘details’ started to emerge.
As in…
“Wait a minute… if there WAS some guy from the crew whose only JOB that afternoon was to be the ‘lookout’ for all the others, and WARN them of any danger with enough time for them to reach safety… then why are the other 19 all DEAD?”
Seriously. If that really is “the story” that Sue Black of Arizona State Parks is going with… and what the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ has come up with for the State Park ‘signage’… they have truly NOT done Brendan McDonough ANY favors.
Who say’s they were trying to do him any favors? I think Mr. McDonough has been out of favor with Amanda Marsh and her bitch (non gender specific) Sue Black from the very beginning. Maybe they are really doing exactly what you said, nail his ass to the proverbial wall? I doubt that time has made their hearts grow any founder of that opportunistic (who can blame him, I don’t) con artist.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 22, 2016 at 10:17 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Who say’s they were trying to do him any favors?
Good point.
And here, of course, is the 19 million dollar question…
Has Brendan McDonough even been INVITED to attend this little PRIVATE dedication of this PUBLIC park… and if so… will he actually attend?
( Actually… that’s TWO questions… but you get my drift ).
Yes, and this private dedication is going to be very interesting for lots of reasons. Starting with how they get there?
I think anybody who had been looking at videos or photos of what that area looks like, now know why I call it God Forsaken Country. And Sonny is right, the chaparral and Manzanita will grow back…fast. And somebody is going to have to cut it down and cut it back or it will take over both the trail and the grave yard for Catholic crosses.
I am going to be SHOCKED…if that new state park ever gets very many people to visit it outside of wildland firefighters who will be on professional pilgrimages, which is common with these memorial sites. And maybe some structural firemen who go out of curiosity…or for some other unfathomable reasons.
And as everyone who has watched that video have seen from the condition of that memorial plaque…maintenance of that park is go be a black hole of public funds.
That new park ranger is going to take over for the Maytag repair man for being the loneliest person on the job in the country outside of Basque sheepherders in Wyoming.
And my bet on Mr. McDonough attending the dedication…is…is…is…no? Too many of his detractors will be there, but he is a outstanding self promoter and his 15 minutes of fame might be about up…so he might feel pressure to hit the refresh button?
Followup…
It is still unclear if that ‘text’ that is being called “The Story of Granite Mountain” in the recent KVOA news article is actually the ‘text’ that will be appearing on ‘signage’ at the new State Park itself…
…but regardless… the same BULLSHIT ‘fortune cookie’ story of he events of Sunday, June 30, 2013 is now ‘published’ on Arizona Governor Doug Ducey’s website…
http://azgovernor.gov/governor/blog/2016/11/new-state-park-memorial-honor-19-granite-mountain-hotshots
It is also on Governor Doug Ducey’s website that it NOW says the PRIVATE dedication of this PUBLIC State Park will be Tuesday, November 29, 2016.. but the park will NOT be open to the PUBLIC until the next DAY… Wednesday, November 30, 2016.
The original ‘announcement’ from Arizona State Parks itself said that the PRIVATE dedication of the new PUBLIC park would take place on the morning of November 29, 2016… but that the park would then be OPEN to the people who actually paid for it ( the PUBLIC ) that same day… later in the afternoon.
Now we learn that ‘plan’ has changed.
The new PUBLIC park will NOT be open to the people who actually paid for it ( the PUBLIC ) until the day AFTER they are done with their little PRIVATE dedication of this PUBLIC park.
I guess they realized that most of the people who have been invited to the PRIVATE dedication of the PUBLIC park didn’t even want to run the risk of running into any of the pesky ‘PUBLIC’ on November 29, 2016.
Bill Gabbert ( Wildfire Today ) has now also published the same information as it appears on Governor Doug Ducey’s site… with one notable exception.
Bill Gabbert has completely left out this ‘fortune cookie’ bullshit story about the Granite Mountain Hotshots ( because even Gabbert knows that it is bullshit ).
In its place… Gabbert has substituted his own ‘fortune cookie’ version of events which still doesn’t explain what actually happened… but at least it is not the same ‘bullshit’ from Governor Ducey’s website.
Wildfire Today
Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park to open November 30
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/11/20/granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park-to-open-november-30/
Arizona Governor Doug Ducey’s own official website may now be saying that the new ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ doesn’t open to the people who paid for it ( the PUBLIC ) until November 30, 2016… but Arizona Parks Department has, apparently, not gotten that ‘memo’.
On their OWN official ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ website… Sue Black and the Arizona Parks Department are still saying that the new park will be open to the people who paid for it ( the PUBLIC ) on November 29, 2016, as originally announced…
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/f-a-q-s
From that Arizona State Parks webpage ( FAQ )…
——————————————————————
Q: When will the Park open?
A: …the expected open date of the park to the PUBLIC is November 29, 2016.
——————————————————————
WTKTT–Certainly people are rewriting history to their own way and not to actual facts. And that would not be helping Donut’s cause since it would look as if he had something to do with the deaths. Far from the truth, since he was another young soul left to fare for himself and would have been another tragedy had not by accident Brian Frisby happen by to pick him up. Who would leave a fellow like that with his lack of experience in a position that was bound to kill him if the wind changed. There was ample time to order him out or back to the black, yet Marsh and Steed failed to do so. They should have been looking out for the look out.
In talking to Norb whom has commanded two wild land fire crews alike the GMHS crews and is now retired, one question I did ask was would he put an inexperienced fellow such as Donut out as a look out. He said that would not be a good idea, that you should have someone of considerable experience as a look out since your crew’s lives depend much on his ability and experience of that lookout. You should have a person there that has experience and understands fire behavior–something Donut was woefully lacking in. Remember he and another guy nearly trapped themselves in an earlier fire, barely escaping. His disdain for fire fighting rules, calling them hillbilly would seemingly completely disqualify him from such an important job. Be it as it was, Marsh and Steed’s leaving Donut bad and Donut’s lack of understanding of fire behavior almost got him killed.
We don’t hear a lot about Brian Frisby’s rescue of Donut other than we know it did happen. Of course for whatever reason he and his crew have been muted by officials. So the intricate details are not totally known there.
There was some discussion here on IM about how someone of GMHS was padding the books by paying themselves money while the men were actually at home or in the bars. In cases like that or where other methods that are being used to pad the books who would be the ones to investigate such things? Where local fire departments do this sort of thing, are they subsidized by the feds or is it a state matter. I suspect Gary would know that answer as well as anyone? I don’t really know where you would go when you find such things?
Oh, WTKTT, I forgot to say neither of us will expect the sign to give a true story. I believe the hero thing has gone over the edge in this one and withholding the facts is a dishonor to those men and even more dishonor to future wild land fire fighters. They deserve the truth in every incident, something we have not seen a lot of concerning the Yarnell Hill Incident.
Joy is still working on the FOIA situation–gathering as much as she can of public information. Peeples Valley claims they have no records on the Yarnell Fire, that the FS took them all away so they have no answers to questions about that fire. Yarnell is still dragging their feet on getting her out information. Fortunately WTKTT has posted the Arizona Law and how it can run up into heavy fines for these public departments if they do not answer timely.
Right now she is also trying to get FOIA’s on some finantial stuff concerning the local distribution of donated funds. That too has caused some anxiety. I told Joy ask them why some are anxious when there is no reason to be anxious. Joy has–she is a straight up person and not one to beat around the bush. So she did get some apologies after she was going to file lawsuits. Seems that this Yarnell Fire thing is very touchy in at least two local fire departments–Yarnell and Peeples Valley. Gary showed us that public servants are not above the law–they must comply or face the consequences–a few of his suspects went to prison for their refusal to strictly follow the letter of the law.
Yes I know the answer. It is the USDA Office of Inspector General or the USDA Forest Service Office of Investigations (Special Agents), but don’t expect anyone to open THAT can of worms.
And I should have added it would be either one of those two agencies because if I remember right, it was a USFS fire they were coming off of, so their time was still being charged to the USFS, a federal agency. If there was time padding going on with the crew on other fires or under other circumstances, it would depend who the controlling agency is.
Can the state park be sued for false signage? Even without the missing elements that sign is inaccurate and this is a disservice…I am very very disappointed by your comment of this new article and Gary may get his wish of me telling it all…dont worry or reach me those with the missing data…but you of all people should be equally or more disappointed knowing the true data…
You can’t sue the government…generally speaking, for the millionth time.
Also how can state park put out a false sign anyways…
I guess the same reason the SAIT put a report by a deadline orchestrating the tragic weekend as they did.
I always with pure heart loved A R I Z O N A but I cannot say those who run the show have good character and I dont care how much credibility or credentials they obtained for the public to see…
That article forgot to mention praise to adc prison crew who are there right now doing an excellent job. Sent pics to a few of you..and yes a foia already submitted…Sonny thought I was FBI early on in 2011 but in reality EN turned me into a FOIA FOOL just gathering gathering gathering..since the folks who should talk…don’t
Doesn’t this narrative of the fire fit in with photo of several Granite Mountain hotshots looking down at the fire ?
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 21, 2016 at 10:03 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> You know the only problem with all of the “widow” or “widower” pensions that
>> I am familiar with…they stop on the day the widow gets remarried.
And so do some ‘benefits’ being received for the ‘children’ of the deceased.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> So that turns into quite a practical and moral dilemma for those who find
>> themselves unlucky enough to be receiving one.
>>
>> Most of them are faced with choice of either living in sin according to the
>> Bible Thumpers or getting married again and losing their pension benefits.
Using her own highly developed skills and unbridled talent for ‘self-promotion’… New York Times correspondent-turned-author Fernanda Santos continues to ‘brag’ that her for-profit book about the Yarnell Fire is the only one that contains excerpts from interviews with at least one family member of every GM hotshot who died at Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
One of those ‘interviews’ was with ‘Desiree Steed’… Jesse Steed’s widow.
According to Santos… about 2 months after the first anniversary of the Yarnell Hill Tragedy, Jesse Steed’s widow ( Desiree ) became pregnant. The father was the guy who had been the ‘gymnastics coach’ for Jesse and Desiree’s two daughters Caden and Cambria.
The gymnastics coach’s name was Eric Montejano.
The child ( a girl ) was born on June 17, 2015… and Eric and Desiree named her ‘Cora’.
Desiree and Eric ( Montejano ) have held a ‘commitment ceremony’ in their backyard… but Desiree told author Fernanda Santos she will NOT marry the guy because… if she does… she will lose the ongoing pension benefits she is receiving for Jesse’s 2 children.
From page 204 of Santos’ for-profit book…
————————————————————————————————
Desiree Steed had a child, a daughter, on June 17, 2015.
The girl’s father, Eric Montejano, coached Desiree’s two other children, Jesse’s children, in gymnastics.
Desiree and Eric named their girl Cora— a homage to a dear great-aunt of Desiree’s, and because the name matches those of her half siblings, Caden and Cambria, which also start with the letter C. Cora’s middle name is Grace and has a connection to her parents’ story.
Eric had known Jesse and Desiree’s kids before he’d got to know Desiree beyond hurried greetings at pickup and drop-off. Eric was married and Desiree a widow when they had their first meaningful conversation, toward the end of 2013. His marriage was ending by then.
That summer, after just a few months together, his wife had filed for divorce.
He and Desiree faced rumors and criticism when they started dating, but she paid them no heed. “When you know it’s right, you know it right away,” Desiree said. She’d felt it when she’d met Jesse, and she felt it when she met Eric. She also knew not to cling to any illusion of endless tomorrows. She’d learned that everything can change in a moment, or with a lightning strike on a parched mountainside.
( snip )
Desiree and Eric had held a commitment ceremony in their backyard, but had never married.
Marriage, she said, would nullify some of the benefits Jesse’s children had been receiving since his death. “My last name,” she said, “is still Steed.”
———————————————————————-
Key sentence…
“Marriage, she said, would nullify some of the benefits Jesse’s children had been receiving since his death.”
Well…that is a new one on me and means the chicken shit city of Prescott is just what I have been saying they are…chicken shit. I mean…I can understand it if the woman remarries, that is even the way Uncle Sam does it, bless his cold, cold heart. But that is an adult decision that can be made based on knowing full well what can happen. The children DON’T have that same opportunity. Women can make lots of bad decisions, but those decisions don’t have to affect the kids who the system still owes.
That is why my dear wife always had very specific instructions NOT to remarry but to just Live In Sin because I was always worth so much more dead than I was alive because in addition to me maxing out all job related death benefits, I always carried an additional $1,000,000 (one million dollars because I learned something from my father even though I don’t remember him, everyone breadwinner should ask themselves, What happens to my family IF I don’t come home from this shift?).
But…that being said, even if Jesse Steed’s wife remarries and has a new husband, those children will always be Jesse Steed’s because there is certainly NO guarantees their new father will provide for them like Jesse Steed would have, especially in the case of another death or divorce.
I have tried once again to turn my life around and stop using so many cuss words on this site…but that policy is really FUCKED UP!
On a side note…it was the gymnastics coach! Ya gotta love it. It is always the gymnastics coach, or the tennis coach, or the aerobics instructor, or the guy at the gym or the fitness instructor, or the pool boy. That asshole’s marriage started falling apart just as soon as he started chasing after the good looking rich widow who was very vulnerable. Gotta love it…LIFE!
Whoops…forgot TWO of the most common Usual Suspects…the Best Friend who spends too much time with the wife or the Religious Leader who has been counseling the wife who is unhappy in her marriage.
All guy’s (except for me) think with their Little Heads.
Whoops
Oh…and one more thing. I should have said, “most guy’s think with their Little Head”, not all guy’s. I have known some guy’s like me.
And all wealth is RELATIVE, Mrs. Steed is a “wealthy” widow by a gymnastics teachers standards because he probably earns less than a pool boy does.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 21, 2016 at 7:41 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Thank you WTKTT, I stand corrected regarding Marsh being told to “hunker down in
>> the black and be safe.” I think “the black” part of that was an assumption we (or at least I)
>> was making before you developed the new theory that Able may have been actually
>> telling them to “hunker down at the BSR and be safe’, which of course if you are right,
>> would add a radically different dimension to this scenario and mean IMHO ( have learned
>> that one since we started) that there may be a whole lot more culpability to Abel’s
>> involvement in the deaths of the crew?
I don’t believe it’s a ‘new’ theory that when Todd Abel said “you guys hunker and be safe” ( at 3:50:12 PM ) to Eric Marsh ( over an open TAC radio channel )… that Abel *might* have already been aware of what Marsh was actually DOING at that moment he was talking to him, ( scouting ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch ), and what Abel meant was for them to all “hunker and be safe” AFTER they reached their destination ( the Boulder Springs Ranch ).
We simply do NOT hear either the BEGINNING or the END of that conversation that Todd Abel was having with Eric Marsh at that time… and even though it was taking place on an ‘open’ TAC radio channel ( that almost everyone working the fire was ‘scanning’ that day )… no one else has come forward to say what was ‘else’ was said, either.
We only hear 12 seconds of that ‘conversation’… from exactly 3:50:08 PM to 3:50:20 PM.
So yea… there are still a lot of ‘unanswered questions’ surrounding that actual KNOWN radio conversation that was taking place between Todd Abel and Eric Marsh at 3:50:08 PM.
So while it is not really a ‘new’ theory that Todd Abel might have been perfectly aware of exactly what Eric Marsh was DOING while he was talking to him at 3:50 PM ( already ‘out of the black’ and ‘scouting’ towards the Ranch ‘Safety Zone’ )… I don’t think it has been discussed much.
And one of the reasons it probably hasn’t been discussed much is because if there really is any chance that Todd Abel KNEW Eric Marsh HAD ‘left the black’ and was ALREADY ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch when Abel was talking to Marsh at 3:50 PM… then that makes Todd Abel a bald-faced LIAR when it comes to his SAIT and ADOSH ‘testimony’.
And nobody likes to hear that ‘Operations’ level people can just be fucking LIARS.
There actually IS ( and always has been ) some ‘other’ evidence in the public record that Todd Abel was, in fact, LYING for parts of his ‘interviews’ with both the SAIT and ADOSH investigators.
Example: Whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ actually flew down to check on Granite Mountain.
Todd Abel ‘testified’ that on or around this same timeframe of 3:50 PM, after he had spoken with Eric Marsh about the upcoming thunderstorms, he ( Abel ) then told ‘Bravo 33’ ( specifically, John Burfiend in the right seat of ‘Bravo 33’ ) to fly down to the south side of the fire and check and see if Granite Mountain was, in fact, ‘in a good place’ and ‘in the black’. Abel also ‘testified’ that ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross ) actually DID that and reported back to him that Granite Mountain was, indeed, ‘in the black’ and everything was OK.
But there is no other evidence that this ever happened.
There is only ‘other evidence’ that Todd Abel was LYING about this to the investigators.
Thomas French and John Burfiend ‘testified’ that what went down was the exact OPPOSITE of what Todd Abel said happened.
French and Burfiend ‘testified’ that it was THEY who called OPS1 Todd Abel and THEY are the ones that asked HIM ( Abel ) if they should ‘pause the action’ and go and ‘check’ on a crew that THEY ( French and Burfiend ) just heard were ‘headed to some kind of Safety Zone’.
French and Burfiend also ‘testified’ that it was then OPS1 Todd Abel who ‘waved them off’ and told THEM it was simply ‘Granite Mountain’ and they were ‘in the black’ and there was no need for French and Burfiend to fly down there to check on anything at all.
So it can’t be BOTH ways.
‘Bravo 33’ either ‘flew down’ to ‘check on Granite Mountain’ that day… or they did NOT.
Either OPS1 Todd Abel has always been LYING about just this one part of the events that took place that afternoon… or both French and Burfiend got together and concocted their own ‘lie’ which totally contradicts what Todd Abel says happened.
I’ve said this before… but while I ( me, personally ) do not believe Thomas French and John Burfiend have, themselves, ever told ‘the whole truth’ about what they know… I ( me, personally ) believe that on this one point about whether or not they actually physically ‘flew down to check on Granite Mountain’ ( as Abel says they did )… French and Burfiend are the ones telling the truth on at least just this one ‘part of the story’.
They ( French and Burfiend ) did NOT do that. They OFFERED to do it… but it was Todd Abel himself who ‘waved them off’ and told them it wasn’t ‘necessary’. So they didn’t.
It remains absolutely ASTOUNDING that after TWO full ( official ) ‘investigations’… THREE for-profit ‘books’… and ( so far ) ONE ‘movie script’… that it would still be a ‘mystery’ as to whether or not some guys in an airplane really did ( or did NOT ) ‘fly down to check on Granite Mountain’ that afternoon.
The ‘Air Support’ story of Yarnell has actually yet to be either ‘investigated’ or fully ‘reported’ by ANYONE… and there’s probably room there for at least one more BOOK that focuses on just that ‘Air Support’ part of the story alone.
Suggested NAMES for this BOOK that just focuses on the ‘Air Support’ story the day of the Yarnell Hill Tragedy might be…
“Baron Von Burfiend’s Flying Circus”
“Warbis and Lenmark – They knew exactly what would happen even at NOON”.
“Rory Collins’ Guide to Evading Interviews”
“Soft Air – The Untold Story of Air Support at the Yarnell Hill Fire”.
I digress. Sorry.
Back to whether or not Todd Abel KNEW exactly what Marsh meant when Marsh told him “I’m workin’ my way off the top” at 3:50:08 PM.
Notice that we do not hear ( in the Caldwell video ) Todd Abel ASK Marsh what he meant by that.
So either Abel was just ‘assuming’ something about it… or Abel didn’t NEED to ask because he KNEW, for sure, what that meant… that Eric Marsh had already told him ( in the part of the conversation prior to that which was not recorded ) that his ‘plan’ was to ‘scout ahead’ to the ‘pre-determined Safety Zone’ ( the BSR ) and that he was now actively “working his way off the top” as part of that “scouting mission”.
Todd Abel had flown no less than TWO ‘Recon’ missions over the entire fire that Sunday.
Joy Collura even captured one of those ‘recon’ flights and has photographs of DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 ( with Todd Abel onboard ) flying right over the area where Granite Mountain was working all day.
So there is no doubt that Todd Abel had good ( full ) ‘visuals’ of that entire area… including exactly WHERE this ‘bomb-proof’ Boulder Springs Ranch was in relation to the ‘anchor point’ and where GM was working that day.
It would simply make more sense to assume that Eric Marsh really DID tell his direct supervisor ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) what his ‘plans’ were circa 3:50 PM ( to try and get Granite Mountain to that ‘pre-determined Safety Zone ) than it would make sense trying to figure out why Eric Marsh would NOT do that ( tell his supervisor Abel what his plans were ).
One more piece of ‘evidence’ that still exists which might also prove that OPS1 Todd Abel WAS fully aware of what Eric Marsh’s plans for GM were as early as 3:50 PM would be the radio capture that would then take place 37 minutes later, at 3:27 PM.
I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) still believe that it is VERY likely the person we hear conversing with Eric Marsh in the 3:27 PM “YARNELL-GAMBLE” video ( shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble ) is OPS1 Todd Abel.
It SOUNDS like Todd Abel… and nobody else heard on the radio at that fire that day ‘hems and haws’ and uses ‘uuhs’ and ‘aaahs’ when they talk the way Todd Abel does… and that is exactly the way that person who was talking directly to Eric Marsh at 3:27 PM was speaking.
If that person that Eric Marsh was ‘reporting to’ about the progress of Granite Mountain ( “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire” ) at 3:27 PM really was OPS1 Todd Abel himself… then that would be additional proof that Abel was fully aware, all along, that Granite Mountain was “coming off the fireline” and trying to get to that “pre-determined Safety Zone” at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
And all we hear him ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) doing in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video is trying to get some ‘status’ on GM’s progress… and then his ( Abel’s ) urging to “hurry up” when he learned from Marsh ( at 3:27 PM ) that GM hadn’t actually ‘arrived’ there yet.
Even if whoever Eric Marsh was ‘reporting status’ to in that YARNELL-GAMBLE video was NOT OPS1 Todd Abel… the situation there is the same. Marsh was responding to SOMEONE who had just asked him for GM’s ‘status’… and was then urging them to “hurry” upon discovering they hadn’t actually even made it to the BSR yet.
I think that is all correct. And I didn’t really mean it’s a “new” theory, I meant to say it is a “newish” theory that I had not given much thought to, or frankly credence to until recently, partly because I find the consequences of what you are suggesting to be STAGGERING.
Oh…and one more thing. For all of those dreamers out there who have always said, “I am going to tell the truth when and only when I am asked question in a court of law under oath and then nobody can blame me for being a rat snitch MF and that is how I am going to make myself feel better about NOT BEING A tattletale and doing the right thing.”
I am going to say what I have said from DAY ONE (1), there is NEVER going to be ANY trial. The 12 Greedy and Selfish Families proved me right when they took their BLOOD money and RAN.
The consequences of what we have been discussing lately of radio communication between Todd Abel,Granite
Mountain and others regarding Granite Mountain
movements
Is staggering but don’t we need to follow the evidence?
Yes we do, what part don’t you think is following the evidence. That is something WTKTT usually does pretty well. I am the one who likes to make leaps of speculation. That being said, we do have to fill in some blanks with guesswork because all of those who know…are keeping mum on the subject.
Speaking of keeping mum on the subject. I want to remind the 3 or 4 people who are sill following this thread that I have it from an unimpeachable source who is not named Joy, because she certainly IS impeachable (no offense intended Joy) that there is a LOT more to this story that we don’t know. Which in my mind can only mean that there WAS a Hail Mary Plan, and key members of the fire team, Able, Cordes and Musser…and maybe even my arch villain…Willis were up to their necks in it and that WTKTT may very well may be right and the “hunker down and stay safe” order was indeed referring to hunkering down at the BSR rather than in the black as I have always assumed.
And like I said, downstream…IF that is indeed what that order means…than that IS the SMOKING GUN and that does mean that key members of the fire team minus (probably) their dazed and confused Incident Commander… and my old friend from childhood (it really is a small, small world) Roy Hall.
I swear…you just couldn’t make this SHIT up if you tried, because everyone would think…”NO, that is too improbable.”
Whoops, got on a roll and didn’t finish my train of thought,
“And like I said, downstream…IF that is indeed what that order means…than that IS the SMOKING GUN and that does mean that key members of the fire team minus (probably) their dazed and confused Incident Commander… and my old friend from childhood (it really is a small, small world) Roy Hall ARE UP TO THEIR NECKS IN THE DEATHS OF THE CREW AND WILL QUALIFY TO BECOME ALMOST “PRIMARY” OR “PRINCIPLE” CAUSES IN THE DEATHS OF THE CREW! .
Wish that I had the time & skill to search back through my posts because I’m certain I pointed out the real possibility of the “hunker & be safe” order from Abel was in the context of ‘At the BS Ranch’ & NOT ‘in the black’ up on a ridge where GM was ‘out of the game.’
Time. A precious commodity indeed.
One more thing before I get back to woodsmen chores, the pumpkin setup at the BSR could be used for bucket work OR it could be used for portable pump/hoselay to protect structures OR it could be used for support of a Burnout Operation. Was the pumpkin set as part of a contingency plan to save the town? A ‘Hail Mary’, if you will?
Woodsman
I should say I’m doubtful that a non-framed portable water tank or ‘pumpkin’ (they’re orange & roundish) was setup at the BSR as a water source for helicopter bucket work.
Well… Arizona Forestry employee ( and IC of the Yarnell Hill Fire on Saturday, June 29, 2013 ) Russ Shumate himself SAYS that’s why he ordered the Yarnell Hill Fire Department Water Tender to ‘set up’ those ‘non-framed portable water tank pumpkins’.
See a longer reply ( with more detail ) up above at the following link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-401092
Gary,
I have no reason to believe that this thread is not following the trail of evidence–on the contrary.
I’m all about going forward to pick away at the evidence to unwrap the long awaited truth.
Right on…my apologies. And my pick for the most guilty one of the entire Dazed and Confused YHF Fire Team is Todd Abel. I think he was up to his neck in cahoots with Marsh on the ill advised last minute foolhardy Hail Mary Plan.
HAIL MARY PLAN
Theoretically what could this plan have included ?
According to my recollection, the concept of a Hail Mary Plan was first advanced by Norb…who doesn’t still post here but he might still be monitoring this site from time to time…so he and others might be better to address your question than me.
BUT…in the meantime, here is what has developed over several years (sigh) now…I think, or at least it is now what I believe happened on that fateful day. Most of this I am putting in writing for the first time.
1. The YHF Dazed and Confused Fire Team realized the fire was going to reverse direction and have all of the variables needed to burn down a large portion of Yarnell and the Glen Ilah subdivision.
2. Eric Marsh, who was working as Division Alpha Supervisor with the GMIHC under his command realized the same thing about the same time.
3. Someone(s) from the YHF D&C Fire Team, who was probably Todd Able working as Operations 1 and perhaps even Paul Musser who was working as Operations 2 coordinated with Marsh (who was technically working under Able but the chain of command lines seemed to be blurred that day…everywhere) to move the GMIHC from the safe black on the ridge line to the Boulder Springs Ranch (BSR) over the repeated objections (3 of them) of the GMIHC Acting Crew Boss Jesse Steed.
4. I think it is also likely that Gary Cordes, who was working as the Structure Protection Group Supervisor (I may be off on these ICS titles etc, but I am a little dazed and confused as well) and maybe even Darrell Willis who was working as the same but up on the north end of the fire were in the loop, although Willis would probably have had the least to do with the plan because of his physical location.
5. So…I believe the Hail Mary Plan included putting the dozer under Dozer Boss (substitute ICS title) Cory Ball who was a borrowed asset (squad boss) from the Blue Ridge Hotshots to punch in a hastily constructed dozer line along the eastern flank (and projected eastern flank) of the fire between the town and the fire.
6. I think step two of the Hail Mary Plan was for the GMIHC to fire out from the dozer line, maybe even back firing directly behind the dozer as it advanced constructing the line. Kind of like infantry advancing into combat behind a tank…very movieish.
7. Finally, I think it was intended that the GMIHC would be hailed as the heroes of the YHF…well; I guess they were hailed as the heroes of the YHF anyway, but this other way they would have been living heroes, which would have been a lot better for everyone, especially them. And even if the plan would have failed miserably in terms of saving the town, they still would have been nationally heroes because they tried so hard and risk so much to try and save so much, which is a totally BULLSHIT structural FIREMAN concept and does not have any place in the world of wildland FIREFIGHTERS.
8. A recent wrinkle that I honestly have not given much thought to, is what role the pumpkin played, if any, in this plan. I haven’t even paid attention as to whether the pumpkin was set up, or should have been set up, or planned to be set up, or could have been set up? The Woodsman has recently introduced the concept that the pumpkin may have been intended for use to refill engines rather than for helicopter bucket work, which certainly could have been the case.
9. IF the Hail Mary Plan did in fact exist, it would not change the primary cause of the deaths of the crew which would remain on Eric Marsh and/or Jesse Steed depending on how you feel about that issue. BUT…it could also be at the heart of the Big Cover-up, if it exists, which I personally believe it does. And IF a poorly planned, last minute, foolhardy, desperate Hail Mary Plan did exist and the Dazed and Confused YHF Team bought into it and tried however poorly to execute said plan, that would be on them and would ratchet up their culpability in the deaths of the crew…IMHO.
10. Oh…and one more thing, Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, if I don’t see you between now and then. God Bless America!
Another question that you might ask is, “Why else would have the GMIHC gone to the BSR if it was NOT to take part in a Hail Mary Plan that was most likely to back fire from the eastern flank of the YHF.”
And the short answer is, “I can’t think of another reason nor have I read one that has been put forward that I find to be credible.”
Here are the alternative reasons some people have suggested along the way as to why the crew leaders would have been so reckless with the lives of their crew.
1. To assist with evacuations. I don’t think this is credible because there was nothing the crew could do on foot with hand tools and line gear to assist anyone with evacuation. At a minimum they would needed to have been evacuated themselves and therefore would have put additional stress on the implementation of an already nearly non-existent evacuation plan.
2. The crew believed they were in danger from lighting strikes from the approaching thunder cell. I don’t think this is credible because they could have simply dropped down the western slope of the ridge into more black if there really was a danger from lightning.
3. They needed to didi mau most ricky tick to the BSR for logistical reasons to be picked up and transported back to the Ranch House Restaurant to regroup with everyone else. I don’t think this is plausible because it would have been just as easy and so much safer to work their way out to the highway by essentially following the same path to the north that Sonny and Joy took because there was no hurry, everyone else was just standing around and waiting for the Big Dog to finish eating anyway before they moved back in to start picking up the pieces of whatever was left.
4. They were burned out and needed to be re-supplied with water etc., and just wanted off the mountain. I think this is the most credible alternative because the crew was excessively tired because of their previous work schedule, late night which was actually an early morning partying and most of them were severely dehydrated from sweating out alcohol because they were either hung over and some (probably at least 2) of them had still drinking alcohol after arriving on the fire line. This is in addition to one crew member who was abusing controlled substances on the fire line which was unacceptable even if the medications were prescribed.
.
Although this could have been the reason that drove them to be so reckless…it doesn’t add up for me because it was Marsh ordering them to come down when Steed and several others who supported him clearly did not want to leave the ridge. In addition…that is a very uncharacteristic thing for hotshots to want to do based on the hotshot culture.
They had the best seat in the house to watch Mother Nature’s Grand Show from the ridge. Kick back…put their gloves on their hardhats for a nice pillow or lay back on their line packs, break out some snacks and watch the town burn.
Thanks WTKTT for that opine of how GMHS crew wound up in the trap. That makes good sense and might some day be part of the who-done-it story. Certainly, I do believe more than Marsh and Steed were involved in moving the men down into a trap that every wild land fire fighter worth his beans says was against what sensible wild land fire fighters would do. It does bring to light the danger of being a bi-sexual–well lets say a hybrid. Mixing it up could get you the aids or being a hybrid fire fighter could get you killed.
No disrespect to hybrids but after listening to most of the wild land fire fighters of experience, it certainly appears to the citizen that you have a very dangerous situation where you run off the hill with your Pulaski trying to protect a city. Well at least that was the case in the Yarnell hill fire. Can you picture Marsh waving his Pulaski at a pulsating fire shooting 100 ft flames at him? Sort of like a Vietnam soldier shooting a flame thrower at a Gook.
It does boggle the mind to think that these men were knowledgeable about all the dangers of a fire releasing tremendous energy that of an atom bomb Heroshima type every 15 minutes and, laying down 50 to 100 ft flames advancing with such tremendous power that not even an army could have stopped it. We were witnessing this, yet with Tod Able and others monitoring from helicopters and other vantage points and weather reports and wind direction changes coming in would order those men to make a feeble attempt to protect structures. Those actions not only endangered the men but killed them.
Since when did sturctures become more important than lives? I believe in this instance it really was only the Helms Ranch that they were ordered to protect. With blistered plaster it was no so called bomb proof place to be. It certainly did not qualify for the 16+ acres needed in a situation like that.
http://wildfirenetwork.org/images/15181230_1145077268911952_6269627265155169854_n.jpg
Unfortunate, but this is what we’re up against…
The mixing of structural and wildland doesn’t work. But NFPA and NWCG (which I believe was who started this mess with their Crosswalk bullshit) are going full bore.
I’m hoping we grow enough and can get like minded people on the committees at NWCG to try to turn it around… baby steps…
Also, Charlie,, gook, slope, dink, or even Charlie are NOT the preferred nomenclature… Vietnamese, please.
On second thought, given the time period of your reference, the preferred nomenclature would be NORTH Vietnamese, although I think NVA would also be acceptable. Perhaps even Viet Cong or even VC…but not gook.
Those are some good suggestions for titles of what went on with air support. But I am really latching on to my new title for the entire handling of the YHF …”Dazed and Confused.”
Oh…and one more thing Diane. I was working on my MOAP regarding your question, “How do they NOT have a case” and I/we got a little sidetracked on the YCSO and then I kind of lost interest on finishing my bigger tirade.
BUT…here is the Readers Digest version of what else I would have said. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind outside of Roy Hall and his ilk that incompetence was rampant in the management of the Yarnell Hill Fire which indeed did rise to the level of Dazed and Confused Management that directly led to disastrous results for lots of people for lots of reasons.
BUT…generally speaking you have to show that public servants, who are in fact paid for by the people as are the damages that are awarded to complainants, not only were in fact incompetent in their actions, but they were incompetent on purpose with intent to harm in some way. That is a high bar to reach.
The one big exception is when people’s constitutional rights are violated and that didn’t happen on the YHF. That generally refers to false imprisonment, illegal search and seizure, arresting someone for exercising their freedom speech or assembly etc. Things guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
And just because you missed so much of our earlier discussions, here is my pitch from what I gained from studying some of Dr. Ted Putnam’s work.
The threat from the YHF grew at an exponential rate, whereas the ability of the fire team to perceive the threat, react to it and subsequently deal with it was linear. And that is because most people…especially fire teams (FIRES General Staff Officers who like the military are still fighting the last fire [war], not the next one) think in a linear way as opposed to a non linear way because that’s how they were taught to think at “Fire Generalship”, which is the PhD course of wildland firefighting training.
“Here is a simple exercise that will demonstrate the difference between a linear and non-linear thought process. Take out a sheet of paper. In the top left corner, write a letter “A.” In the center of the page, write a “B.” Halfway down the page on the right hand side, parallel to the “B,” write a “C.” In the bottom right corner, write a “D,” and in the bottom left corner write an “E.” Now draw a line from A to B to C to D to E. That is linear thought–arriving at the final answer by following a step-by-step process.
Now take your right thumb and forefinger and grab the left top corner of the page next to the A. With your other thumb and forefinger, grasp the lower left corner next to the “E.” Touch the A to the E. That’s non-linear thought–finding the solution without having to go from point to point to point.”
http://thedoctorssidekick.blogspot.com/2012/04/linear-vs-non-linear-thinking.html
So…they certainly screwed the pooch (to put it in technical terms), but they didn’t screw the pooch on purpose. There is a difference.
Actually…that description sounds like the same way I have heard “worm holes” in space theoretically work.
The problem the YHF team had was they were working through their exercise methodically which is how fires go…little fires are Class A, little bigger ones are Class B, even bigger ones are Class C and so on and so forth.
I guess they still use that scale…I am only about 30 years out of date? I think it stops somewhere up around a Class G or H fire which is when they get over 100,000 acres or more. I will look that up and get back to you…if I don’t forget.
And of course when fires are manned, they are manned through a linear process and you have seen that is how fire teams work as well, first you call in a miscellaneous team and then go to a Type II and then a Type I. We now know the fire team that day needed to crawl through a worm hole in space to get to where they needed to be to fight that fire.
On the other hand, the fuel was there, the temperatures were there, the RH was there, the topography was there (in a valley that funnels the wind with steep side slopes) in the middle of the burning period and the weather event with fierce and erratic winds was predicted well in advance.
Never mind. You’re right. What the fuck were they THINKING! Hang em High! I am conflicted.
OK…let me try this ONE more time before I put on a movie.
The citizens of Yarnell and surrounding communities had every reason to believe that the State of Arizona, Division of Forestry would fight the Yarnell Hill Fire with highly competent and qualified wildland firefighting professionals in whom they could have a high degree of confidence because that is what they pay their taxes for…and that didn’t happen. And those citizens deserved better…much better.
Thank you, Gary
OK I’m just going to pop in here and say your timing of the Gamble video is an hour early. It was at 4:27, not 3:27. That being said…….
I wandered off this site in about May, because I realized that I had nothing left to offer. Since then, I’ve read it periodically but not commented. I don’t think anything meaningful is going to happen until wildland fire-fighters take their situation and their lives seriously, and I don’t see that happening.
That being the case, thank you Gary for this post. I had been thinking Abel was busy managing his part of the fire, and didn’t really know where Marsh was and what was happening. I’m thinking you are right, now, however, and he DID know.
Which leads back into the “Hail Mary” plan. I had, all along, wondered if he was aware of that. Now I’m pretty certain he was.
My stomach is upside-down after this election. Thinking about what you are saying keeps it upside-down. Thinking about how wildland firefighters don’t give a shit about any of this keeps it upside-down.
Namaste to everybody.
this was a delightful gift…Happy Thanksgiving Marti Reed, Happy Thanksgiving. It is so good to know you are here and I am sorry for the election turn out…you were the most amazing pure advocate along with Jerry Florman/Big G and the respect I have for you 2 ladies and him almost got me to vote but my husband needed for his career the vote to go to Trump but with purity I was not going to vote this election because I feel like all the time and energy I have spent the past few years has only labelled me and have vultures kettling…and well I was too drained to take time out to know the candidates…I know more about 2 fires than I wish to know, when you have entities trying to name the alleged arson without fact checking or addendums I do hope that rancher gets a lawyer and does an intent of inquiry letter to both entities to ask who the reporting person was who tags him as the tenderfoot fire arsonist…he was in Buckeye with his grandkid…messed up world…
Reply to Cheerleader post on November 19, 2016 at 8:40 pm 7
NOTE: Cheerleader posted a link to a ‘GoPro’ video taken by someone who was recently working on the ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ hiking trail. The ‘Observation Deck’ is fully installed and this crew was finishing the trail down from that ‘Deck’ to the deployment site itself…
>> https://youtu.be/DaLbizq5qJI
>>
>> I hiked it alot that area.
>>
>> CLAP CLAP CLAP to all the folks who made this trail like it is in the video—
>> that took alot of people to do that
Yes. Now that we have this clear ‘you are there’ GoPro video of what that hiking trail ( and that weird ‘Observation Deck’ ) actually looks like… it was obviously a LOT of work getting that ‘trail’ carved out in that rocky boondock.
But I don’t think this ACE ( American Conservation Experience ) volunteer got the ‘memo’ that no one ‘controlling’ this project wanted this kind of ‘you are there’ video to emerge BEFORE they have had a chance to do their little PRIVATE dedication of a PUBLIC park.
Oh well… not everyone gets all the ‘memos’.
Nice to see what it all looks like ‘clear’ and ‘close-up’… including the final deployment site area with those jail-like lobster-cages-with-rocks connected by CHAINS.
Some ‘interesting’ moments in this ‘you are there’ GoPro video…
+2:49
The hikers are approaching the point where that ‘right of way’ that Arizona State Parks is just ‘renting’ across BLM land meets up with the boundaries of the actual State Park itself, and the camera pans from that ‘high point’ back to the east. The Boulder Springs Ranch and the deployment site area are now clearly visible off in the distance.
What is also now clearly visible is that the ‘road’ coming from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the ‘deployment site’ is also still clearly ‘visible’ and ( apparently ) has been ‘maintained’ as a ‘road’ and not allow to ‘grow over’ yet.
It still would not surprise me at all to discover that despite the fact that Lee and DJ Helm said they were ‘done with all this stuff’ back in June, and would only allow the use of their property until the last ‘Beta’ test of the ‘Staff Ride’… that their property will be used one last time for the ‘Private Dedication’ so that all the dignitaries and family members who are going to be there even have a chance in hell of getting out to the deployment site. I imagine there will be ‘shuttle vehicles’ involved to drive them from parking spaces at the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the deployment site itself.
This actually might be at least one time when Lee and DJ Helm are to be PAID for the use of their property… even though they STILL have a ‘pending lawsuit’ for ‘property damage’ against the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry.
+2:52
Same as above. Hikers have now reached the ‘saddle’ itself at the west end of the box canyon and the camera pans back down towards the Boulder Springs Ranch and the deployment site. The original ‘bulldozed road’ from the BSR out to the deployment site appears to have been ‘maintained’ and still appears to be ‘usable’ as a way to get out to the deployment site from the BSR itself.
+2:58
A good, clear view of the already-installed ( weird ) ‘Observation Deck’ with its slanted green roof, 4 posts, a bench and some ‘signage’.
+3:51
Another good view from a spot down the slope of the west end of the box canyon and back towards the deployment site and the BSR. You can see the ‘ring’ of ‘lobster cages filled with rocks’ down there surrounding the original deployment site… and that the road from the BSR has been ‘maintained’ all this time and still appears to be a valid way to access the deployment site from the BSR.
+4:04
A look back UP the slope of the west end of the box canyon from the spot where this crew was obviously working on the ‘trail’ that leads DOWN from the ‘Observation Deck’ to the deployment site itself. You can see the ‘Observation Deck’ itself again… ‘up there’ on the two-track and ABOVE where this crew was ‘working’.
+4:10
The guy with the camera is now AT the ‘Observation Deck’ itself. The ‘signage’ is there on the north end of the deck… but the guy did not get close enough for anyone to be able to read what that ‘signage’ is actually telling the public as they look ‘down’ on the deployment site.
+4:13
Break time… about halfway down the slope at the west end of the box canyon. The place where they are ‘resting’ looks almost identical to the place where Sonny and Joy had their ‘campfire’ that night and took the photographs of the number ’19’ mysteriously ‘appearing’ on the rock face.
+5:05
A good, clear video of what it is like to be ‘walking’ around the actual deployment site and on that ‘ring path’ where the lobster-cages-filled-with-rocks ( and connected by actual CHAINS ) are.
Notice that the original ‘small tree’ that did not completely burn and was used by the SAIT to mark the SE corner of where all the bodies were found is still there and has not been removed.
The camera operator actually walks WEST and TOWARDS this tree as this video section continues. The brush has grown back to the point where you can see WHY the men deployed in sort of a ‘Horseshoe’ shape.
There was vegetation there even when they were trying to deploy that they did not have time to ‘clear’… and the men ended up having to deploy ‘around’ ( and, indeed, right next to ) that unburned vegetation they didn’t have time to clear out.
Now that we have this ‘you are there’ walk-around video of the final efforts at the deployment site… I still say the ‘lobster-cages-filled-with-rocks’ connected by actual CHAINS was a very poor design choice.
The ‘effect’ is ‘jail like’… and it feels like the crosses are ‘imprisoned’ behind steel bars and chains.
Like they are ( forever ) TRAPPED there in their own little circular JAIL CELL.
+5:14
The guy with camera is now filming the base of the ‘flag pole’ that remains there near the deployment site. There is a ‘messed up’ plaque with the names of all the GM Hotshots on it ‘leaning’ on the pole base. There is too much corrosion and damage on the sign itself to still read all the names of all of the deceased hotshots. There is also a small ‘square’ sign leaning on a rock at the base of the pole that says…
“FAITH – Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see”.
Given that ‘definition’ of ‘faith’… it actually makes me wish those men had a little MORE ‘faith’ on the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
In other words…
A little more SURE of what they were only ‘hoping for’ ( that they actually had the TIME to do what they were attempting ).
*AND*
A little more CERTAIN of ‘what they COULD NOT SEE’ ( that the fire was ‘certainly’ about to come around ahead of them into the mouth of that blind-box-canyon ).
So WTKTT…let me see If I have this right? There IS a Christian Cross in the Cross Corral that represents Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew Boss Eric Marsh…the avowed Buddhist?
I love irony as much as a good joke. The Fundamentalist Christians running that private memorial site paid for with public funds wrapped in a cloak of secrecy compliments of the bought and paid for Queen of Quid Pro Quo have provided me with both.
I want to thank them for everyone they have done to help keep my mind occupied during my golden years. And we aren’t done yet.
I am going to Crucify the Reputation of State Senator Karen Fann IF I ever finish my book as a Son of Prescott.
You remember…Eagle Scout with Silver Palm (for some reason a Silver Palm is higher than a Gold Palm?) Order of Arrow, graduate of Prescott High School, Letterman’s Club for 3 years, Junior Varsity Wrestling Team, Vice President of the Chess Club and top ranked player on the Prescott High School Chess Team, Varsity Football as a starting Offensive Tackle and Defensive Tackle both my Junior and Senior Years, The Marlers Furniture high school hired hand for three years, ticket taker and bouncer at the Marina Theater and the drive-in theater for 3 years and last but not least, a proud graduate of Yavapai College with an AA degree in Law Enforcement.
Oh…and I almost forgot, I even began my illustrious government career as a temporary employee and wildland firefighter on the now defunct Walnut Creek Ranger District, Prescott National Forest out at both the Camp Wood and Walnut Creek Guard Stations.
Now C’mon…can anybody out there beat those Everybody’s Home Town Street Creds? Oh…I graduated from Miller Valley Grade School and the Prescott Junior High Schools as well and my favorite eating place was Jim Dandy’s Hot Dog Stand. And my first car was the family Rambler I inherited but my second car was metallic medium blue GTO…that went way too fast. I was pretty hot stuff.
And now look at me…bitter, angry and I think Prescott is one of the most FUCKED up places in the country.
In fact…I think I will post a photo of that car so you can see just how fuckin’ cool I really was…if I can find it.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 21, 2016 at 1:27 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> So WTKTT…let me see If I have this right? There IS a Christian Cross
>> in the Cross Corral that represents Granite Mountain Interagency
>> Hotshot Crew Boss Eric Marsh…the avowed Buddhist?
Yup.
And not just ‘any’ sort of ‘Christian Cross’, either.
Someone on that Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board who is part of the ‘design subcommittee’ ( super-christian Deborah Pfinsgston, perhaps? ) chose a very ‘specific’ and ‘elaborate’ kind of ‘Christian Cross’ known as an ‘Apostles’ cross’ ( sometimes called a ‘Cathedral’ and/or a ‘Budded’ cross ) to be the ‘marker’ for ALL of the places where a hotshot died… regardless of their actual religious affiliation(s),,, OR ‘lack thereof’.
The irony is that this ‘Apostles’ Cross’ configuration is most often associated with the CATHOLIC faith… which is, of course, anathema to most ‘Fundamentalist and/or Protestant flavor christians’.
Because of that ‘choice’… there will be some who walk down to the deployment site who will remark… “Gee… I didn’t realize they were all CATHOLICS”.
Here is an Apostles’ Cross that is the identical shape as the ones installed out at the deployment site and it actually has ‘faces’ representing all 12 of the ‘Apostles’ painted into the 3 ‘buds’ on the end of each of the 4 ‘extensions’ of the cross.
It’s a popular sale item at the ‘Totally CATHOLIC’ online shopping site…
http://www.totallycatholic.com/9-3-03/DS114.jpg
SIDENOTE: I guess we have to assume that the ‘faces’ of all the apostles painted onto the ‘buds’ all came from their public Facebook AVATARS.
With regards to Eric Marsh actually being a confirmed ‘Buddhist’… here is an interview that Amanda Marsh gave to Yvonne Wingett Sanchez just back in June of this year…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Title: Holding on to what was theirs: A Granite Mountain Hotshot widow’s story
Published: 4:02 a.m. MST June 26, 2016 – By Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/06/26/granite-mountain-hotshot-widows-story/85890188/
From that article, describing Amanda Marsh tending to Eric Marsh’s
grave marker at the Prescott Pioneer cemetery…
————————————————————————————-
She ( Amanda Marsh ) crouched down to line up miniature figures of
a Buddha, a paint horse, medals and a can of Spam.
————————————————————————————-
There is a photo of Eric Marsh’s flat, bronze grave marker at the very bottom of the article at the link above.
Unlike some of the other GM hotshot grave/memorial markers… there is NO ‘christian cross’ engraved anywhere on Eric Marsh’s grave marker… just those new sort of ‘laser engraved’ photos of Eric and some of his close family members.
And also unlike some of the other GM Hotshots… Eric Marsh really IS buried there at the Pioneer Cemetery. Only a little over half of the GM hotshots are actually interred there… but Eric Marsh is one of the ones who IS.
The statue of Buddha appears to be permanently residing there at the lower right corner of Marsh’s grave marker.
Gotta Love It…it’s either that or go crazy hating it.
>> On November 19, 2016 at 11:49 am, Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Wasn’t it Todd Abel who told granite mountain to hunker and be safe and we’ll
>> get air support to you ASAP?
It was, indeed, OPS1 Todd Abel speaking directly to Eric Marsh at 3:50:08 PM ( as heard in the video Robert Caldwell was shooting at that exact time ) and Abel did, indeed, tell Marsh to ‘hunker and be safe’ at that time ( before Granite Mountain decided to leave the safe black )… but Abel did NOT tell Eric Marsh he was going to get ‘Air Support’ to HIM… *OR* to ‘Granite Mountain’… *OR* to anyone in particular.
All OPS1 Todd Abel told Marsh at the end of that 3:50:08 PM radio conversation ( over an open TAC channel ) was the generic statement…
“…we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.”
That’s it.
There was absolutely no specific reference to anyone in particular, or to the intended USE of the ‘Air Support’
In other words… Todd Abel did NOT say anything along the lines of…
“…we’ll get some air support down there to you ASAP.”
*OR*
“…we’ll get some air support down there to Granite Mountain ASAP.”
*OR*
“…we’ll get some air support down there to cover your move ASAP.”
*OR*
“…we’ll get some air support down there for Yarnell ASAP.”
*OR*
“…we’ll get some air support down there for Glen Ilah ASAP.”
etc… etc…
All Todd Abel said to Eric Marsh was…
“…we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.”
So even if Abel’s statement could be referred to as a ‘promise’… his ‘promise’ included no specific reference to ANYONE or ANYTHING in particular ( other than the generic ‘down there’, which obviously meant the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire ).
Even though we do NOT hear either the BEGINNING or the END of that radio exchange between Todd Abel and Eric Marsh, it remains my own personal belief that all Abel was telling Marsh is that he would get Air Support to switch the ‘focus’ of their efforts to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire ( ASAP )… since it was now obvious ( at 3:50 PM ) that is where the highest ‘need’ for ‘Air Support’ was.
And just 20 seconds after Todd Abel made that statement to Eric Marsh is, indeed, the moment we hear the current ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ) telling Lead Plane pilot Thomas French ( in ‘Bravo 33’ ) to do exactly that.
There is no ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel capture to prove it ( and no testimony from Rory Collins since ADOSH was never able to interview him )… but there WAS enough time for OPS1 Todd Abel to actually finish that 3:50:08 PM radio conversation with Marsh, and then IMMEDIATELY contact Air Attack ‘Rory Collins’ to request exactly what he had just told Eric Marsh… ( switch air support focus to Yarnell / Glen Ilah ) and then we actually DO hear ‘Rory Collins’ ( in an Air-To-Air radio channel capture ) also IMMEDIATELY passing that ‘directive’ on to Lead Plane pilot Thomas French at 3:50:36 PM.
For reference ( once again )… here is a transcript of that entire 12 second long Caldwell video which captured the tail end of this radio conversation between Todd Abel and Eric Marsh…
Video filename in the SAIT evidence folder: Robert_Caldwell_IMG_0749_2389.MOV
——————————————————————————————–
CALDWELL VIDEO STARTS AT EXACTLY 1550:08 ( 3:50:08 PM )
+0:00 ( 1550:08 / 3:50:08 PM )
( DIVSA – Eric Marsh – sounding frustrated and/or disgusted ): …Yea… I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top.
+0:04 ( 1550:12 / 3:50:12 PM )
( OPS1 – Todd Abel ): Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated… ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah… we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.
CALDWELL VIDEO ENDS AT 1550:20 ( 3:50:20 PM )
———————————————————————————————
Then, 16 seconds later, we hear Air Attack Rory Collins telling Lead Plane pilot Thomas French to do EXACTLY what OPS1 Todd Abel had just finished telling Marsh he was going to do ( “get some air support down there ASAP” )… and we also hear Rory Collins telling Thomas French to ‘contact Eric Marsh’ ( Division Alpha ) when they get down there…
And ( at 3:50:56 PM ) Lead Plane pilot Thomas French acknowledges this new ‘directive’ from his ( current ) Air Attack by saying he was “heading that way” ( to the Yarnell side of the fire )…
From Panebaker Air Study video 20130630_1628_EP, which actually BEGINS at exactly 15:47:58 ( 3:47.58 ) according to the EXIF metadata embedded in the video file itself…
———————————————————————————————
+2:38 ( 1550:36 / 3:50:36 PM )
( Air Attack – Rory Collins ): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550:38 / 3:50:38 PM )
( B33 – Thomas French ): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM )
( Air Attack – Rory Collins ): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550:56 / 3:50:56 PM )
( B33 – Thomas French ): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550:58 / 3:50:58 PM )
( Air Attack – Rory Collins ): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1551:03 / 3:51:03 PM )
( B33 – Thomas French ): Ground contact Alpha.
———————————————————————————————
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> And then the air support didn’t happen for granite mountain
See above. Todd Abel never said the ‘Air Support’ was FOR ‘Granite Mountain’.
>> On November 19, 2016 at 11:58 am, Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> I forgot to add–why didn’t Todd able keep his commitment to granite mountain
>> to get AA to them? The opportunity was there and it didn’t happen why?
Again… see above.
There IS some evidence ( the radio channel directive from Air Attack to Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ starting at 3:50:36 PM ) that Todd Abel DID request a shift in the focus of ‘Air Support’ immediately after making that ‘promise’ to Eric Marsh to (quote) “get some air support down there ASAP”.
And Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ seemed to tell Air Attack Collins they WERE (quote) “headed that way”.
How “headed that way” ( to the Yarnell side of the fire ) at 3:50:56 PM turned into a 40 to 45 minute delay remains the ongoing mystery.
>> On November 19, 2016 at 12:34 pm, Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I am going to need WTKTT to jump in here, but it is unclear to me exactly what
>> Todd Able was referring to when he said he would get air support to them.
It remains unclear to everyone… because ( in reality ) Todd Abel did NOT actually SAY “what he was referring to” when he made that statement.
He also did NOT say he would get air support “to THEM”.
See above. All he actually said was that he would try to get Air Support ‘down there’, presumably just for the obvious reason of seeing if there was still time to make any drops that might have a chance of protecting some of either Yarnell or Glen Ilah.
Mike Dudley and Jim Karels ( SAIT Co-leaders ) actually PLAYED the ‘Caldwell Video’ for Todd Abel when they interviewed him. Mike Dudley then ( publicly ) told a roomful of firefighters in Utah, on June 20, 2014, that when they played that video for Todd Abel… he absolutely identified his own voice as the one speaking to Marsh… and then ( supposedly ) told Dudley and Karels he “did not recall that conversation”.
But regardless of that ‘non-credible’ statement coming from Abel… it also appears that Dudley and Karels then didn’t even bother to ask him any ‘questions’ about whether he ( Abel ) did, indeed, make any attempts to switch the focus of Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire… as he clearly ‘promised’ Marsh he would try to do ( “ASAP” ) in the video.
ADOSH never got the chance to ask any similar ‘questions’ of Abel… because Dudley and Karels ( and the entire SAIT team ) were always WITHHOLDING EVIDENCE from ADOSH… and the ADOSH investigators were not even aware that the ‘Caldwell’ video ( and the conversation it captured between Abel and Marsh ) even existed at the time they interviewed OPS1 Todd Abel.
If the SAIT had not been breaking the law and withholding evidence from ADOSH… then the ADOSH investigators most certainly would have asked OPS1 Todd Abel all kinds of ‘questions’ about this conversation he had with Marsh at 3:50 PM… such as…
1. We can hear Eric Marsh telling you, at 3:50 PM, that he was “working his way off the top”. What did you think he meant? Were you AWARE that at 3:50 PM Eric Marsh was already “scouting ahead” to the Boulder Springs Ranch… or that he already had every intention of ordering ‘Granite Mountain’ to descend out of the black once he ‘scouted’ the way?
2. When you told Marsh ‘hunker and be safe’… what did you mean, exactly? Did you mean ‘hunker and be safe’ in the ‘black’… or were you already aware Marsh was ‘working his way off the top’ and ‘scouting’ to the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’… and what YOU actually meant was for all of them to ‘hunker and be safe” when they REACHED that Ranch?
3. When you said you would “get some air support down there ASAP”… did you follow up on that ‘promise’ right away? What did you do? Did you contact Air Attack Rory Collins right away and make that ‘request’… and that is why we hear him ( Collins ) telling his Lead Plane to switch his focus to Yarnell in the same 3:50 PM timeframe?
Some of these kinds of questions ( that ADOSH never got to ask because the SAIT was breaking the law and not sharing all of their evidence with them ) are the exact same ones that WERE submitted by the attorneys for family members for the court-settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer Session’ that took place in secret back on February 5, 2016.
And Todd Abel was ( supposedly ) THERE at that ‘Question and Answer’ session to ANSWER these kinds of questions.
But there is still NOTHING that has become ‘public’ about ANYTHING that actually went on at this secret “Question and Answer Day” held back on February 5, 2016… much less what any of the ‘answers’ to any of these kinds of ‘questions’ might have been.
Did the attorneys for the family members actually PLAY the ‘Caldwell video’ for Todd Abel at THAT meeting ( just like Dudley and Karels did when they interviewed Abel )?
And did Abel just regurgitate the same response to the attorneys for the family members that he gave to the SAIT?…
Something like…
“Todd Abel: YEP… that’s me talkin’ to Eric Marsh allright… but I don’t ‘recall’ having
that coversation… or anything about it… or anything I might have said or promised… or whether
I did anything about getting air support to switch its focus at that time… or whether I knew Eric
Marsh was already ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch even as I was talking
to him. Any other questions?”
Thank you, WTKTT-all the details you provided are very helpful as always.
https://youtu.be/ELVkgD-e__k
Fernanda Santos
https://youtu.be/ZqinbFLRDxc
the footage says 6.28.13 at 3:11/6:29 and that area was not on fire Friday…that is not facts for anyone viewing it. Another media moment not fact checked…
https://youtu.be/DaLbizq5qJI
I hiked it alot that area.
CLAP CLAP CLAP to all the folks who made this trail like it is in the video—
that took alot of people to do that
https://youtu.be/VkIV5SL_Uc8
why would it be up for sale—this is the same home that was bought same day as the park…
Obviously not all of the people in and around Yarnell are have-nots.
Gary- this was the home we parked at on 6-30-13
if it helps you get the area
Yeah…pretty ******* SAD (the design)!
Nice trail though…those young people did a great job for subsistence pay.
That is strange that they would make a trail exactly the way we escaped down the bouldery west side of the of the Weaver. Right where that little shed is overlooking the death site and the Helms and on that two track is where Joy had her boots off and I did come back and retrieve here. The trail if you follow it out is the exact way we excaped the fire going to the west away from the fire where an hour or so later with the fire now more intense and closer to closing off that canyon, Steed and Marsh argued about going down. Steed and his men did stand about where that shed is and had the alternative to go west young man or go down and get into the entangled box canyon with no return. Well the fellows will get an eyefull and now the public can go and view and see how Marsh, et. al. killed the crew.
The cleared trail is nice–now an easier escape route for the next fire fighting crew that gets up on the two track. They might need it too since the brush is already growing back efficiently. The rains we had last night and continuing today and the retardant will do a great job of fertilizing the ground so that we should have an abundant crop of weeds, manzanita, grasses and other vegetation returning.
So if you hike the trail, you will at least know the way Sonny and Joy escaped and follow their exact tracks out. However if there is a fire over to in that basin area, be sure you are headed away from it and not toward the fire.
All that effort and I bet they put a plaque of lies there for the public to view.
What would be appropriate is to make a winding switchback trail down from that shed thing where Joy had her boots off and the men dropped off later down to the death site. Now not only would they have trekked the escape route of Sonny and Joy but could also see the situation the men were facing going down that steep canyon face into the box. They might even from the death site hike the 70 yards or so into the boulders where the men could have retreated from the fire instead of taking time to cut and pile brush around themselves. It will be some brushy again so someone can time it getting from the death site to the boulders and include getting into and under the large caves you will find there. It will give you an idea of how future firefighters might consider a bouldery area for retreat rather than depending on piling brush around and hoping the flimsy blankets don’t roast you.
I could never understand why those men chose not to run to the bare boulder area instead of staying in that dense manzanita. The only thing I can think of these bosses were city boys without much outdoor savvy else they would never entangled themselves in brush like that and if they did would have at least stayed near the boulders for a chance to live. Oh well–cowboy wisdom–to square a circle ram a 4×4 up a bull’s ass–and if you get caught in brush with a fire near–run like hell and hope you can find a boulder patch and a hole do get low otherwise kiss your ass good bye.
Charlie stated (The retardant will do a great job of fertilizing the ground so that we will have a good crop of manzanita,weeds etc)
The retardant fertilizes the ground? If so, wouldn’t that be advantageous to ranchers whose property received additional retardant when it was needed in Yarnell on the afternon of June 30,2013 ?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
November 23, 2016 at 5:20 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> The retardant fertilizes the ground?
Yes ( unless it burns up first ).
It’s primary ‘components’ are, in fact, just ‘fertilizer’.
>> Diane Lomas also asked…
>>
>> If so, wouldn’t that be advantageous to
>> ranchers whose property received
>> additional retardant when it was needed
>> in Yarnell on the afternon of June 30,2013 ?
Well, technically… yes… unless you also factor in the ‘disadvantage’ of having most of your property get TOASTED just to get a little ‘fertilizer’ dropped on just SOME other parts of it.
I moved this to the top so it doesn’t get lost and once again, I appreciate the question Diane is asking because it gives us a chance to summarize what has been days, weeks, months and now years of previous discussions on this thread.
Diane lomas says
NOVEMBER 17, 2016 AT 9:51 PM
As I think about the Yarnell hill fire tonight–I am wondering not why the men left the black but rather why more effort was not made to keep them alive?
Reply
Gary Olson says
NOVEMBER 18, 2016 AT 7:31 AM
It was over in a matter of minutes. It was some really long unbearable minutes for the crew, but it was minutes.
IF the VLAT had been in exactly the right position, at exactly the right time and had known exactly where the crew was and had their drop gone exactly right, that MIGHT have saved them.
But keep in mind, the VLAT would needed to have created a safe zone for them that was acres and acres big. According to the Woodsman’s calculations…up to 16.5 acres.
BUT…the VLAT is designed to drop 11,000 gallons of retardant in a long straight line…not a square. So I have my doubts even that would have saved them.
In other words, there was nothing anyone could do to save them from themselves. They were in too deep, and the fire was too big, too fast and too hot.
Diane Lomas says
NOVEMBER 18, 2016 AT 6:21 PM
I am thinking about developments long before those last desperate moments—who was watching out for them as backburns developed in the Shrine area and who could have ensured that air attack came to the yarnell area when it was directed to—–who was looking out for them?
ANSWER – The crew boss of the GMIHC was looking out for them. That is the primary job of a hotshot crew boss. The GMIHC had everything they needed to stay alive on the YHF. They had their training, their crew organizational structure intact, crew i.e., their crew boss, their squad bosses, and their senior crewmen. In addition they had their common sense, their training and not only that, they had their ORDERS for the fire command staff to…”hunker down in the black and stay safe.”
I think it is safe to say that the ONE thing that every past and present wildland firefighter in the country agrees on is that the primary responsibility for the deaths of the crew was 100% (one hundred percent) the fault of their crew boss. We have only been searching for contributing or other causal factors on this thread.
There has been some contention whether or not Eric Marsh ever really relinquished the control of the GMIHC to Jesse Steed, so there has been some differences of opinion whether that primary responsibility falls squarely on Jesse Steed’s shoulders because he was the Acting Crew Boss at the time of their deaths, or whether the primary responsibility for the deaths of the crew should be shared with Eric Marsh.
And if the primary responsibility is to be shared…how much should each one should bear. I am in the camp that believes Eric Marsh never relinquished the crew boss responsibility to Jesse Steed on the YHF because of his personality i.e., petty, controlling, and insecure. And because of the ongoing and simmering feud between Marsh and Steed for the hearts and minds of the crew. And so I assign most of the blame to Marsh, but would be a hard call for me to place a numerical value on the responsibility each one bears.
This feud was brought on by the fact that Marsh had been absent from the crew (for 6 weeks, I think) due to an injury he suffered while mountain biking, during which time Steed had been in complete control of the crew. This feud was exacerbated by the fact that Steed was a natural leader who was highly respected…even admired by the crew and everyone else (I think) in the wildland firefighting community for a variety of reasons…not the least of which was because he wasn’t a PRICK.
The entire reason hotshot crews even exist if because they can ALWAYS be relied on to be placed in the situation the GMIHC found themselves in while fighting the YHF and come out of it without suffering any serious injuries much less fatalities. If hotshot crews lose that competency, there won’t be any more hotshot crews…there will only be lesser crews.
The ability to be sent into a chaotic, dangerous and dynamic situation, e.g., a blowin’ and a goin’ wildfire that is going to hell in a hand basket in a hurry and in a big way without any additional support or supervision and not only survive…but thrive is what makes hotshot crews special and that is what makes a hotshot crew…a hotshot crew.
IF wildfire commanders can’t DEPEND, right up to and including the very lives of hotshots being sent into chaotic, dangerous and dynamic situations, e.g., a blowin’ and a goin’ wildfires that are going to hell in a hand basket in a hurry and in a big way without any additional support or supervision and not only survive but thrive…the entire system will collapse in upon itself.
And no one wants that to happen so we must have the courage of our convictions and assign the blame for the deaths of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were it rightfully belongs…to Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed. Regardless of how much it hurts us, or hurts others. We owe at least that much to ourselves…and to the crew.
The system give hotshot crew bosses tremendous and unconditional (except for the laws, rules and regulations that govern the employment of every public servant) command and control over their crews.
BUT…with the tremendous and unconditional command and control over their crews hotshot crew bosses have over their crews; those same crew bosses must accept the tremendous and unconditional RESPONSIBILITY for the safety and well being of their crews.
And to save us some time because I think you are going to ask next, “Well…what about the YHF SAIT and their SAIR in addition to all of the Eric Marsh’s friends and former co-workers, especially those in and around the Prescott, Arizona geographical area?”
They are cowards who lack integrity and the courage of their convictions who are in fact…putting hotshots and all wildland firefighters at risk for serious bodily injury and even death in the future because of their cowardice. Although don’t get me wrong…I know Amanda Marsh is a ferocious woman who is racked by guilt and deep soul rendering despair because her husband killed his crew and it would not be easy to face her one on one.
Here is the example I have used in the past. IF the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) operated like ALL past wildfire Serious Accident Investigation Teams (although they have gone by many different titles) have, none of us would be safe on common carriers, nor would any of us have any confidence in the NTSB. But the NTSB doesn’t operate that way, they have integrity and the courage of their convictions and so the traveling public is SAFER after each and every civil transportation accident.
It goes without saying that all future SAIT’s should be organized and operated exactly like the NTSB…or they shouldn’t bother investigation serious injuries and deaths on wildfires at all. They should just circle the wagons at the onset of every incident and just deny and obfuscate…deny and obfuscate…deny and obfuscate and save everyone the suspense of waiting for the Serious Accident Investigation Report to be printed and distributed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transportation_Safety_Board
Gary,
Wasn’t it Todd Abel who told granite mountain to hunker and be safe and we’ll get air support to you ASAP? And then the air support didn’t happen for granite mountain they were elsewhere for 45 minutes. Why is it not possible that the outcome would have been different if AA had flown directly to Yarnell? Couldn’t they have flown a straight line to drop retardant over granite and into Yarnell for 40 minutes rather than where they did do the drops during that time?
I forgot to add–why didn’t Todd able keep his commitment to granite mountain to get AA to them? The opportunity was there and it didn’t happen why?
Yes it was Todd Abel. And IF the GMIHC would have done not only what they were supposed to do, but what they were in fact ordered to do, they would not have needed any retardant to be dropped on them because they were safe in hundreds of acres of black.
I am going to need WTKTT to jump in here, but it is unclear to me exactly what Todd Able was referring to when he said he would get air support to them.
And I am in the camp that say’s…it doesn’t matter what Todd Able said or what Eric Marsh heard…nothing relieved him of his responsibility for his crew as I stated above.
And I can forgive you for asking the question because there is no such thing as a dumb question…but you asked a dumb question.
The YHF was NOT like the allied troops landing on the beaches of Normandy and advancing towards the enemy under the cover of air support. Wildland firefighting doesn’t work that way.
Air support is so fickle, erratic, undependable, unreliable, ineffective and subject to so many variables that any wildfire firefighter who ever makes any decision, much less betting their lives or the lives of their crew, based on the assumption that air support is going to be exactly where they need it, exactly when they need it to be there, would have to be completely out of their minds and certifiably insane.
Eric Marsh was a lot of things, but I don’t believe he completely out of his mind and certifiably insane. I never depended or counted on air support to anything for us…and therefore they never disappointed me.
Oh…and one more thing. In the book I MAY finsih someday, this paragraph will read more like this.
“The crew boss of the GMIHC was looking out for them. That is the primary job of a hotshot crew boss. The GMIHC had everything they needed to stay alive on the YHF. They had their training, their crew organizational structure intact (unlike the Prineville Hotshots who died on the South Canyon Fire), crew i.e., their crew boss, their squad bosses, and their senior crewmen. In addition they had their common sense, their training and not only that, they had their ORDERS for the fire command staff to…”hunker down in the black and stay safe.”
So…I will add ” (unlike the Prineville Hotshots who died on the South Canyon Fire).” Because IMHO, here is the total national score for dead hotshots who were burned alive on wildfires to date.
The Loop Fire of 1966 – El Cariso Hotshot Crew Boss Gordon King 12 members of his crew although he survived.
The Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 – Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss Tony Czak killed himself and 2 members of his crew in addition to being responsible for the serious burns suffered of a third who literally had his clothes, which included his fire shirt burned off his body.
The South Canyon Fire of 1994 – Incident Commander Missoula Smokejumper Don Mackey killed 9 hotshots, which was an entire squad of Prineville Hotshots in addition to himself, two McCall Smokejumpers and two helitack.
The Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013 – Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew Boss Eric Marsh and his second-in-command, Captain Jesse Steed, killed themselves and 17 members of their crew.
And you I was just kidding about you asking a dumb question right? I was just being a, you know…PRICK.
see https://youtu.be/gBwz8p8ceoI
So…keep em’ coming, although I am still working on at least one past question which is, Diane lomas says
NOVEMBER 17, 2016 AT 2:28 PM
Russ shumate:
Why Didn’t shumate nt follow suggestion to set up pumpkin earlier on Saturday as encouraged?
Ego or something else?
Gary said: And you I was just kidding about you asking a dumb question right? I was just being a, you know…PRICK.
YOU?
come on….
Yes, .I’m afraid it’s true…I can in fact…be a prick at times. There are only two kinds of people in this world. Those that I have pissed off and those who I will piss off. The only question is, will those who I have pissed off forgive me….or take it with them to their grave?
NEWS FLASH – I want to make this announcement at this time because time MAY be of the essence.
IF I ever do finish my much anticipated, long awaited highly acclaimed book by fans and critics alike…”Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters”, I will dedicate it to Sonny and Joy or Joy and Sonny…depending on which side of the bed I wake up on that morning in recognition of everything they have contributed and sacrificed in this effort since Joy snapped the first photo of the crew humping it up that mountain..
Some people might think I should dedicated it to the YHF 19, but my tome is going to be about so much more than just the crew and there is already a significant body of work dedicated to them. They will understand.
I want to announce this before the book is even written because well…you know, we all know the Irish Gods love Sonny but after surviving four (4) heart attacks, each one of which would have taken the average man to the promised land, the Irish Gods MAY want to dine with Sonny in person soon, but we all pray it is many years from now.
And as far as Joy goes…I don’t know, but she sure as hell does sound pretty sick to me. So…..
Gary said: I will dedicate it to Sonny and Joy or Joy and Sonny
MY REPLY: I believe men should always be shown the respect to be named first as headship…and women behind…so if you follow my belief or who was born first…it is than Sonny first than me…
OK then…Sonny and Joy it will be.
Gary said: surviving four (4) heart attacks
MY REPLY- it is now six stents…six heart attacks/surgeries
July 2015 is 1. August 2015 is 2. November he had one and December than this month.
plus he had one in 2014 in Montana and reason he came back to Congress Arizona
I wondered if I had the count right…obviously not.
And I know surely there MUST be someone out there in cyber land who wants to know what else I think about the Loop, Battlement Creek and South Canyon Fires and why honest investigations of wildfire disasters which include their primary, causal and contributing factors is not only important…it is VERY, VERY, VERY important. And so here is the Reader’s Digest version of my thoughts on those particular fires after years of study, analysis and thought.
At first glance it appears that the hotshot body count on the Yarnell Hill Fire is so much higher than the other fires and therefore, the mistakes that led to any deaths must have been so much worse…or bigger, or dumber, or something else.
Well…IMHO, the answer is…something else and that something else is…luck, not skill. In addition to the El Cariso Hotshots who were burned alive or later died from their injuries on the Loop Fire, there were several others who also burned to a varying degree of severeness. So the bottom line is this…Gordon King TRIED to kill his entire hotshot crew along with himself, but he got lucky and ONLY killed 12l.
And the same thing is true for the South Canyon Fire. The only reason the ENTIRE crew wasn’t killed along with their crew boss and assistant crew boss is because the others simply weren’t there due to logistical complications. Had the others been there as well, the entire Prineville Hotshot Crew would have been killed on Storm King Mountain.
The one exception on this list is Tony Czak of the Mormon Lake Hotshots. His entire crew WAS in the kill zone, but he recognized the danger and sent the bulk of his crew out to the safety zone just keeping himself and a short 3-man burnout team in the danger zone because he was arrogant enough to think he could outrun and or out maneuver the fire with just those 3 men. He was dead wrong.
So…except for Lady Luck, which is why the Lone Survivor of the YHF lived, the outcomes of both the Loop and South Canyon fires would have resulted in the loss of 2 more entire hotshot crews, which would have added about 19 more dead to the total historical hotshot death count.
And as long as I am blogging about Amanda Marsh, I want to add something else. In addition to being a ferocious woman, I have also noted she is very aggressive and combative. I watched her at one news conference and I thought she was going to physically assault reporters who were asking questions she didn’t like.
But the BIGGEST road block IMHO, to the truth being told about the YHF…is that Mrs. Marsh is surrounded and encouraged by a core group of dozens of enablers, who are in turn supported by hundreds of enablers, who are in turn supported by thousands of enablers throughout the Prescott, Arizona, geographical area…and beyond.
So…I just want to share with any of YOU PEOPLE who may happen to be reading this blog…I think all of you are potentially endangering wildland firefighters in the future and I think you should cease and desist your enabling activities immediately if not sooner, because you aren’t being HELPFUL. FYI, so…..
GARY SAID: I have also noted she is very aggressive and combative. I watched her at one news conference and I thought she was going to physically assault reporters who were asking questions she didn’t like.
MY REPLY- it is funny I am the one here replying about Amanda Marsh to you but when you mentioned that specific moment…again I am not associated with Amanda but here is where I am coming from…We met the man she did that too and have spent quality time knowing who he is…both Amanda and this man come from different outlooks on the topic…the reporter was just trying to get answers in a style that at that grieving phase was not being accepted/understood…After I had that time with Wade Ward it changed me…the weight of his sadness in that moment changed me…it did…and when I hiked Fernanda Santos and she privately said stuff I would of never thought that Fall 2014 I would get the same email Fernanda got on same topic and I would be bombarded not in casual here and there but almost daily I would hear they are trying to get me arrested than I got the text from EE and he explained it detailed so than now I knew who it was and I asked direct than the DJH stated at no time were they concerned to me as it was stated in a court setting…but it always kept going back to Chief Ben Palm and Amanda Marsh…Looking back I just think they wanted to protect that area for whatever grieving reason but my concern was it was selective protection as I hiked people they allowed to go to the area…so why was one allowed and not you Gary or the gal who has hiked it forever- that is all…this whole being selective when I was the only one really out there in that area much anyways before YHF and the ranchers can confirm that. It has become this unnecessary topic because it gets nowhere…even in my FOIAs I am starting tomorrow to file my first claims/complaints/lawsuits in regards to the YHF…I am serious when I ask for a FOIA and I follow protocol and I am new at it too and I could not have done it without people like EN teaching me even about the world of FOIAs…and people here helping me comprehend areas I don’t know…Yes, from tomorrow until the end of the year the process has begun for me to file my own claims/complaints/lawsuits in regards to the YHF…I follow protocol and expect the same…locals have asked me is there anything they can do to get me to not do that—I say YES…get the entity to fulfill my FOIA. I am not being hard…I waited three years on some…You only have like 5 years from time you file to make suit- I am ready to get the ball rolling… Dispatch people- get yourself ready Deer Valley…you are on the list of folks who did not recognize or fulfill my foia…
putting aside the Gary comment…
in my humble opinion, looking back to correspondence in 2013 from Amanda to the year later –I do feel others did get in her ear as well and I can see your point there- but I want to put praise where praise is due…
I applaud her as not only an individual but a fallen hero’s wife to place herself as a public entity-
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
I only have heard great things about her healing journey by folks who know her…and the great things she has done with the Eric Marsh foundation. I do not know her. I still have something for her as I said in the start…but in His time it will roll out and I am really debating if I should go on that invite hike only next Tuesday…
Yeah…well, you sound like you might be an enabler as well? Sorry…but I am not buying the “she is not so bad routine.” I don’t appreciate anyone using their personal agenda to set public policy that restricts my rights.
My mother deserved privacy after her husband’s death because she did not use his death as a platform to influence public opinion and set public policy that restricts the rights of those she does not personally approve of or like and fill her own selfish shortsighted agenda that in fact puts workers (miners in the case of my father, wildland firefighters in the case of Mrs. Marsh) at greater risk in the future to perpetuate “The Big Lie”,. which is Eric Marsh is NOT directly responsible for the death of his crew.
Amanda Marsh’s gloves came off a long time ago…and so did mine. I spent a lifetime not backing down and I am NOT going to start now.
NEWS FLASH!
Amanda Marsh is NOT the only one to experience the pain of loss in her life…and in fact, I will put my pain or my mother’s up against hers anytime…Mrs. Marsh wasn’t left with three young children from Eric Marsh to raise by herself, the youngest of which was 8 months old.
Don’t get me started. You will not like the things I will say.
It didn’t look to me like Mrs. Marsh waited very long to replace Eric’s memory with new ones.
define enabling…
I do not think I am enabling Gary but I live in the presence only and shedding light that there is people who need the answers…that is us and then there is those who want to move forward and build an area up to help others who have a loss like that as well…
I can state this Gary…the bigger package when it surfaces will be a very hard day for so many…that were involved or even the watchers too…
I also do not think Eric was replaced…I have seen within my own family loss and HOW SOON IS TOO SOON…cancer and heart disease and copd and emphysema is the highest killer to my family….I think one of the hardest losses was Lisa my husband’s family where she had the most angelic soul and earthly beauty…we all face that one in our lives like such and it just sucks…I applaud Amanda for allowing God in to be open to love again…
The idea of becoming attached and losing someone again terrifies some. When you’re grieving, you don’t exactly feel adventurous, outgoing, charming—in other words, like dating…and to the world and for the world she shows her love for Eric Marsh with this organization which has done very well…it has inspired people is what I have heard…I am not around her but maybe you are locking into how she once was in a overwhelming grieving phase vs her today…what people tell me say she has a greater sense of well-being and life satisfaction so who are you to say Eric Marsh has been replaced…Eric died a very horrific way and I think I would about shut everyone out and be weary of the people I allowed in if it happened to me…yet if I could share any data I do think someone who had a loss if they got the same FOIAs they could not piece it together as I have because I know the people so unless you know that than it just is data…
I would be wary of losing my freedoms and independence and have to learn to care for another…I do not think I could do it…I could have friends but married…if that happened…only thing I can say is I would not want it…but I know He has the path set…we should never judge…each person needs to lead and their life the best way for them not the world…
Joy said, “I can state this Gary…the bigger package when it surfaces will be a very hard day for so many…that were involved or even the watchers too…”
And I say, “I hope Sonny does not go to dine with Irish Gods and I go to drink with the Norse Gods before that day finally comes, Or is, “I hope Sonny doesn’t go to drink with the Irish Gods and I go to dine with Norse Gods before that day comes?
Joy also said, “I also do not think Eric was replaced”
Really Joy?.I am sure you are aware of what woman have been saying for tens of thousands of years (unless you are a Fundamentalist Christian, in which case women have been saying it for no more than 10,000 years while men and women were riding on dinosaurs) which is, “Yours may be bigger, but his is here.” Right?
As Santos wrote, hotshots hear that one all too often. And what was Amanda Marsh? The third Mrs. Eric Marsh?
And what…Amanda Marsh was married to Eric Marsh for all of two or three years? Big deal.
You know the only problem with all of the “widow” or “widower” pensions that I am familiar with…they stop on the day the widow gets remarried.
So that turns into quite a practical and moral dilemma for those who find themselves unlucky enough to be receiving one.
Most of them are faced with choice of either living in sin according to the Bible Thumpers or getting married again and losing their pension benefits.
Of course that was never a problem for my dear mother because she didn’t do either one and she received social security based on my fathers account . She had a different problem though, a really lonely existence AND a really big problem making ends meet with three kids to raise by herself.
Lucky thing Amanda Marsh doesn’t have any of those problems or she could throw a world class Pity Party to base Public Policy on. The good citizens of Prescott are going to be on the financial hook for the YHF for a long time to come.
Be sure and thank Darrell Willis for everything he did the next time you see that Bible Thumper roaming the streets of Everybody’s Home Town.
Oh…and one more thing. IF Mrs. Amanda Marsh did NOT want any public criticism…she should have not taken on a Public Persona, she should have stayed a Private Person…like my dear mother did after her husband’s death.
I am pretty sure all of the case law in this area is on my side of this equation. Of course that does not take into account the idiosyncrasies of the alternative universe most of Arizonaistan exists in. So…who the **** knows how the Yavapai County Circus Courts would rule?
But as one of my heroes, Alfred E. Neuman, as I was growing up used to say, “What…Me Worry?
I can tell you why Gary Olsen was not wanted at the site by the powers that be–simple–same as for keeping out Ted Putnam, and any other man who has respected investigative abilities. These types can smell, a rat from a long distance and getting up close they can even look into his beady eyes and scare hell out of him. That is why the rat wants to hide from daylight–he might be seen for what he is.
As a cowboy working for Charlie Ray on the Brock Cattle Spread–Charlie had me bunking in the bunk house. I was the only one in there but he had corn inside the thing too. That attracted rats so that at night they would be crossing the rafters over my head. Well with a 22 pistol and a flash light i could blind the bastards and dispach them. I did’t take into consideration the old board roof topped with tin but undoubtedly I added a few holes through it. Charlie appreciated the dead rats but not the bullet holes in the roof so asked me to stay outdoors–a thing I really wanted to do anyway. Who the hell wants rats running around and especially overhead
Oh I was all of 17 at the time and not all inclined to live in a rat den even those days.
You have that right. That woman in court I witnessed was one angry person. There is a reason to be angry and we know that people handle loss and grief differently. Mostly though, people do not strike out against others and Amanda seemed pretty much the one that did while the rest were like me when I lost my son. Distraught sure and withdrawn but in no pissed at others. I think I was angry at myself for listening to his mom who did not want him to be a miner when he asked me to train him–instead he took up underwater welding on his own–an even more dangerous occupation.
But who can foretell the future and how things might go. Maybe a Psychic, maybe an alien God or perhaps the Irish Gods that figure a man ought to have brains enough to do the proper thing when he is risking his life and especially others. They do not give any special permit to be a risk taker and do stupid things that will get you killed. I think they are sad when we fuck up for our stupidity. Whether they have other plans, I can’t read minds there. Let the Gods and let the time this Irish-American boy be a time of my own advancement. If we can lend a hand, then that is a good thing–and I damn sure would have told Marsh as I told Joy, dropping off in that canyon was a deadly situation–something I would have advised against. But if they did not listen to Rick McKensey then what chance would they listen to us?
In fact we were advised to leave the scene. I never felt threatened when on the top since I knew what was on the west side of the Weavers. But whether Marsh and Steed knew, I never found out. I always figured the copters would have told them of the sparseness of vegetation there and mostly they could have done like they did in the boulders before it got into the dense brush and before they got entangled there.
I did however feel threatened there on the two track once I saw the fire explode into a full blown wild fire that no one and not even a company of men could deter. It was time to move to the west and that proved true. When the PVC pipe there shriveled into a snake it was something I knew would happen and I knew no matter where on the two track or on the east side you were, your body was going to look like what the ISIS bodies look like after they burned and were hung for the Americans, etc. to witness.
The men that were behind this catastrophe are still working fires–I can tell you my kid better never go to work for them.
But then one is an RN now and the other old enough he listens better than when younger. I think it was Provencio that said he definitely would not allow his kid to work for Marsh. He was right but then the watchers above all this were not savvy enough to see how this Hot Shot Wonder was actually an accident about to happen and had no business commanding young souls with his attitude of do or die. Do what? Protect structures at the expense of lives? That is what happened and it was just because someone was in the wrong occupation else he would not have listened to his superiors and risked those young lives despite Steed objecting.
This country is full of hero worship shit. People that are killing others by negligence need to be exposed so that kind of killing is stopped. Good lord, I had only one man to be responsible for. He was a young Spanish American guy I was training, but if you were to find him you would learn that I made him stand back when I had dangerous ground to drill for bolts. I could have put him there but what kind of man would risk someone he is training like that? Well if you did like Marsh, joined them since you knew you killed them, then perhaps there is some mitigation but it damn sure does not relegate you to hero status. Amanda can yelp all she wants–but her husband takes the cake if you want to class him as a looser–he lost his young souls from his negligence in my opinion and a hell of a lot other opinions that we read here.
Yet Steed succumbed to Marsh as well but the others I have to believe were brain washed and young enough most did not know better. I can tell you the young Spanish American guy working as my helper would have gotten right out there drilling in dangerous ground if I had told him too. He did not know better yet–and I feel that was mostly what happened to those men.
That training was to be a Uranium miner for Standard Oil of Ohio at Seboyeta NM in 1979–not wild fire training but the principle holds.
Charlie says
NOVEMBER 20, 2016 AT 4:07 PM
You have that right. That woman in court I witnessed was one angry person.
MY REPLY- what YEAR was that?
2015.
what year is it now?
2016.
I am the one who had the court setting and I am far past that moment. I will always be bewildered I was the one that got the letter from state land fella Max Masel not us as hikers so yes I am on the state for always define the boundaries…
and yes I will file complaint if Arizona State Park does not acknowledge my FOIA by protocol because they only have so many business days left.
the FOIA I overnighted.
Tracking Number: EL177919248US
October 31, 2016 , 10:37 am Acceptance CONGRESS, AZ 85332
November 1, 2016 , 11:55 am Delivered, Front Desk/Reception PHOENIX, AZ 85085
and I received the signature card as well.
Signed for By: G GLORIA // PHOENIX, AZ 85085 // 11:55 am
PLUS assistant attorney general Christopher Munns replied to email 10-31-16 8:28am as well as he cc’d to James Keegan at Arizona State Parks.
That email alone says they are reviewing my questions from 10/26 and 10/27 email…to Ken Sliwa…so that date begins there not by date I snail mailed and overnighted the foia as well-
plus he is the man who redirected me to Arizona Ombudsman’s office 10/31 1:18pm when public bodies
so to answer someone—next week is the time I should get deadline on that area-
http://azstateparks.com/board/downloads/agendas/2016/AGENDA-ASPB-111616.pdf
wwtktt- they did answer one question.
see above link.
oh wait- that was for state parks not GMHS…sorry wwtltt
Thank you WTKTT, I stand corrected regarding Marsh being told to “hunker down in the black and be safe.” I think “the black” part of that was an assumption we (or at least I) was making before you developed the new theory that Able may have been actually telling them to “hunker down at the BSR and be safe’, which of course if you are right, would add a radically different dimension to this scenario and mean IMHO ( have learned that one since we started) that there may be a whole lot more culpability to Abel’s involvement in the deaths of the crew?
I also appreciated you spelling out just how criminal the SAIT was in withholding evidence from ADOSH, which of course also tracks back in my opinion to a completely botched death investigation of 19 dead citizens of Yavapai County by the Yavapai County Sheriff;s Office which should be completely unacceptable anywhere other than the alternative universe in which the aftermath of the YHF existed and continues to reside.
I would also like to add for Diane’s benefit and the benefit of others, that in addition to all of the other things I named that the GMIHC had going for themselves…if Bob Powers were still blogging here he would emphasize they had all of the rules and guidelines that have been developed at the cost of countless lives (if you count the Big Idaho Blowout of 1910 because I don’t think they even know how many died on that one) of wildland firefighters to keep WF safe.
And whether you follow the 10, the 18 and even LCES as gospel like Bob and RTS did and still highly recommend everyone do (although in my day the 18 were the 13 and LCES hadn’t been created yet), or if you use them (even the 10) more as guidelines rather than hard and fast rules as we were prone to do on the Mighty Coconino (and by me continuing on the Santa Fe), the crew didn’t do any of the above.
They just blew off almost all of the rules and guidelines at one time without any backup plan because apparently there was a culture that existed within the GMIHC, that “the rules were hillbilly” and didn’t apply to them because they were so much smarter than the old timers were.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-399045
And just in case anyone wants to correct me, which I will in fact appreciate being corrected if I am wrong in how I am using the King’s English.
Principal {Factor} – 1: most important, consequential, or influential :
Causal [Factor} – 3: involving causation or a cause : marked by cause and effect
Contributing [Factor} – b : to play a significant part in bringing about an end or result
So…am I right that causal and contributing have different meaning? It is for the book I MAY finish some day. Or are the words so similar they mean essentially the same thing.
For example;
1. “Eric Marsh’s decision to order his crew to leave the black was the “principal factor” in their deaths.
2. “The GMIHC culture that believed the safety rules governing the actions of wildland firefighters were hillbilly was a causal factor in the deaths of the crew.
2. The unnamed person (Todd Able) or persons (Darrell Willis, Paul Musser) who asked Eric Marsh to move his crew to the BSR ;played a contributing factor in the deaths of the crew.
Any English majors out there who want to take a swing at this one? Because as you can see, in my book, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter” which is highly acclaimed and anticipated by my supporters and critics alike, I am going to name names and point fingers…because well…that is what I do.
That is what anyone gets to do who went in one end of the system (meat grinder) and managed to come out the other end…even as ground up chuck.
Just ask all of the Navy SEALS who don’t brag, but have written countless books about how great they are/were.
WTKTT can you tell me which software you use to do transcripts of things? You’re good at explaining things and your VLC link way back when was something great. Thanks.
I use the FREE ( public domain ) audio software called AUDACITY.
It lets you just set ‘loops’ that replay sections of the audio as you work your way
through the transcription. It is also able to ENHANCE the audio ( boost the gain, filter
out background noise, etc. ) for things that are ‘hard to hear’.
I have used a LOT of audio engineering products… some costing thousands and thousands of dollars… but AUDACITY is better than all of them and it is my own ‘go to’ product.
You can download AUDACITY here…
http://www.audacityteam.org/
Disclaimer: I am not associated with the AUDACITY software project in any way. I am just a ‘user’ of the product.
Diane lomas said,
NOVEMBER 17, 2016 AT 2:28 PM
Russ shumate:
Why Didn’t shumate nt follow suggestion to set up pumpkin earlier on Saturday as encouraged?
Ego or something else?
Diane, I was working on an answer to this question when Sonny set me off on an Epic Rant with his comment about the sad sack miner whose shack was bulldozed by the BLM. Because…you know…I am easily distracted. BUT…I will get back after your question tomorrow…God Willin’!
I am backed up on your questions.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-391771
Reply to Charlie post on November 17, 2016 at 8:55 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I should add Yarnell Recovery Group has not responded to her FOIA, but then
>> they likely do not know the law that citizens have a right legally to know what
>> people are doing when they become a public entity.
The Yarnell Recovery Group is NOT a ‘Government Organization’… and, as such, is not actually REQUIRED to respond to any State level ‘Arizona Open Records Requests’, or any Federal level ‘Freedom Of Information Act’ ( FOIA ) requests.
However… it IS a ‘duly registered’ 501(C)3 non-profit organization ( with an IRS ‘Employer Identification Number ( EIN ) number of 47-1502291 ) and, as such, IS required to share *some* of its financial information ‘on demand’ to anyone who asks to see it.
See the IRS ‘Non-profit organization’ disclosure rules at the link below, followed by the actual ‘financials’ for this ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group, Inc.’.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> To refuse records can be a misdemeanor and there is only a limited time to reply
>> or if no reply a reason at least has to be given within 74 hours. Something about
>> a misdemeanor and then felony. Maybe WTKTT will give the exact penalties since
>> these people Joy has asked for FOIAs have all skirted the law until they were
>> threatened with having a case brought against them.
A Non-governmental organization ( Like the ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ or the infamous ‘Arizona 100 Club’ ) is NOT required to respond to ‘Open Records’ and/or FOIA requests like ‘government’ agencies are… but they ARE ‘required’ to supply ‘financial statements’ to the IRS… and those ‘financial statements’ are, in turn, REQUIRED to be made public and/or supplied to ANYONE who requests to see that information.
If any Non-profit REFUSES to supply these ‘financials’ to the IRS and/or anyone who walks into their offices and ASKS for them… the PENALTY is a fine of $20 per day as long as the refusal continues… up to a maximum fine of $10,000. That is on a ‘case by case’ basis… so if 10 people are asking for information and not getting it… then the ‘fines’ could reach 10 x $10,000 ( $100,000 ).
But you will seldom find any ‘detail’ in these ‘financial statements’ that Non-profits are REQUIRED to file with the IRS ( via Form 990 ) and supply to anyone who asks for them.
This was ( and continues to be the case ) with the infamous ‘Arizona 100 Club’ and the millions and millions of dollars they received in response to the Yarnell Hill Tragedy.
Even the recent ‘meltdown’ at this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ that was investigated/covered by the media and forced the resignation of this Sharon Knutson-Felix person did not contain the full ‘details’ of how ALL those millions of dollars were ACTUALLY ‘distributed’.
A few ‘cases’ of how that money was being spent leaked out ( vactions and trips with expense accounts for select family members, buying wedding dresses back from widows, etc )… but the organization itself refused ( and still refuses ) to supply a full ‘detailed’ accounting of what happened with all those millions of dollars that were ‘donated’ following the Yarnell tragedy.
There is still no proof that this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was/is ‘distributing’ all that money fairly… and not just to ‘select’ family members who Sharon Knutson-Felix herself deemed ‘worthy’.
As for ACTUAL Federal Level ‘Freedom of Information’ ( FOIA ) requests… there are different ‘rules’ and ‘penalties’.
In general…
1. Any governmental agency only has 20 days to ‘respond’ to any FOIA request. Period. End of story. The ’20 day’ clock begins the moment they RECEIVE the original FOIA request ( from anyone ). The PENALTY for an ‘agency’ blowing that time limit is that the ‘agency’ is then NOT allowed to charge ANY FEES for that ‘request’. This has been upheld several times in Federal Court.
2. The ‘Freedom of Information Act’ is a FEDERAL LAW… and, as such, any ‘violations’ of it are subject to a whole array of PENALTIES including injunctions, sanctions… and even ‘punitive’ damages ( fines and monetary judgements ).
There is a ton of information out on the Internet about FOIA laws and the associated ‘remedies’ and ‘penalties’.
Just Google the words “FOIA” and “Penalties”.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> She did get apology letters from some for refusing her FOIAs –they had not known
>> the severity of refusing to give out public information to the people they serve.
That is not uncommon when it comes to ‘Open Records’ and/or FOIA requests.
Especially ‘Open Records’ requests… where you find yourself dealing with Local or Municipal or State or County ‘agencies’ versus Federal ones.
As Joy has discovered… the ‘lower you go’ on the totem pole… the more likely you are to run into uneducated and/or ignorant people who don’t know the LAW and who run their local ‘governmental agencies’ like they were ‘private businesses’.
Sometimes you just have to hit a mule with a 2×4 just to get its attention.
A lot of ‘public servants’ just cash their paychecks and never realize who they actually work FOR ( the public )… nor do they ever fully comprehend what the second part of their base-level job title of ‘public servant’ actually means.
It means they are paid to SERVE the PUBLIC.
** NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS – FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE
The following applies to this ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group, Inc.’…
The United States Internal Revenue Service ( IRS ) – Official Website
Exempt Organization Public Disclosure and Availability Requirements
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/exempt-organization-public-disclosure-and-availability-requirements
From that website…
———————————————————————
Exempt Organization Public Disclosure and Availability Requirements
Tax-exempt organizations must make annual returns and exemption applications filed with the IRS available for public inspection and copying upon request. In addition, the IRS makes these documents available. The questions below relate to the public disclosure and availability of documents filed by tax-exempt organizations with the IRS. Requirements for exempt organizations to disclose IRS filings to the general public
( List of Frequently Asked Questions )
———————————————————————
Question 1…
In general, what public disclosure requirements apply to tax-exempt organizations?
———————————————————————
Public Disclosure and Availability of Exempt Organizations Returns and Applications: Public Disclosure Requirements in General
In general, what public disclosure requirements apply to tax-exempt organizations?
In general, exempt organizations must make available for public inspection certain annual returns and applications for exemption, and must provide copies of such returns and applications to individuals who request them. Copies usually must be provided immediately in the case of in-person requests, and within 30 days in the case of written requests. The tax-exempt organization may charge a reasonable copying fee plus actual postage, if any. The IRS must also make this same information publicly available. Generally, it may take the IRS up to 60 days to process your request.
———————————————————————-
Question 12…
What are the penalties for failure to comply with the disclosure requirements for exempt organizations tax documents, and who must pay them?
———————————————————————-
Public Disclosure and Availability of Exempt Organizations Returns and Applications: Penalties for Noncompliance
What are the penalties for failure to comply with the disclosure requirements for exempt organizations tax documents, and who must pay them?
Responsible persons of a tax-exempt organization who fail to provide the documents as required may be subject to a penalty of $20 per day for as long as the failure continues. There is a maximum penalty of $10,000 for each failure to provide a copy of an annual information return. There is no maximum penalty for the failure to provide a copy of an exemption application.
———————————————————————-
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continued from previous ‘Reply’ )…
** THE YARNELL HILL RECOVERY GROUP, INC.
501c3 Lookup
List of 501c3 Organizations in Arizona
http://501c3lookup.org/Arizona/
A ‘search’ on that Arizona 501c3 ‘Lookup’ site for ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’
produces the following information…
http://501c3lookup.org/yarnell_hill_recovery_group_inc_/
———————————————————————–
Yarnell Hill Recovery Group, Inc.
Yarnell, Arizona
EIN: 47-1502291
Community Improvement, Capacity Building
* DEMOGRAPHIC
ADDRESS: PO BOX 1086 85362-1086
IN CARE OF NAME: FRANCES LECHNER
TELEPHONE / FAX: N/A
WEBSITE / EMAIL: N/A
DBA NAME(S): N/A
FACEBOOK PAGE: N/A
GOOGLE+ PAGE: N/A
TWITTER PAGE: N/A
* CLASSIFICATION
ORGANIZATION CODE: 1: Corporation
DEDUCTIBILITY CODE: 1: Contributions are deductible
AFFILIATION CODE: 3: Independent
SUBSECTION/CLASSIFICATION CODES: N/A
ACTIVITY CODES: N/A
NTEE COMMON CODE: S: Community Improvement, Capacity Building
NTEE CODE: S80: Community Service Clubs
FOUNDATION CODE: 15: Organization which receives a substantial part of its support from a governmental unit or the general public 170(b)(1)(A)(vi)
EXEMPT ORGANIZATION STATUS CODE: 1: Unconditional Exemption
* FINANCIALS
TAX PERIOD: 12/2015
ACCOUNTING PERIOD: 12
INCOME CODE: 3: $25,000 to $99,999
INCOME AMOUNT: $37,741.00
FORM 990 REVENUE AMOUNT: $37,741.00
RULING DATE: 03/2015
ASSET CODE: 4: $100,000 to $499,999
ASSET AMOUNT: $444,874.00
FILING REQUIREMENT CODE: 990 – Required to file Form 990-N – Income less than $25,000 per year
PF FILING REQUIREMENT CODE: No 990-PF return
Disclaimer: While we are confident of the accuracy of the information on this page, we encourage you verify the information directly with IRS. The IRS has a toll-free number for this at 1-877-829-5500 or visit www (dot) irs (dot) gov.
———————————————————————–
Some other relevant ‘links’…
Federal court enforces penalties for FOI response delays
https://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/news/federal-court-enforces-penalties-foi-response-delays
What Are Your Remedies Under FOIA
http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/what-are-your-remedies-under-foia
The official Government FOIA Website – Frequently Asked Questions
https://www.foia.gov/faq.html
———————————————————————-
Can I ask that any FOIA fees be waived?
You may request a waiver of fees. Under the FOIA, fee waivers are limited to situations in which a requester can show that the disclosure of the requested information is in the public interest because it is likely to contribute significantly to public understanding of the operations and activities of the government and is not primarily in the commercial interest of the requester. Requests for fee waivers from individuals who are seeking records on themselves usually do not meet this standard. In addition, a requester’s inability to pay fees is not a legal basis for granting a fee waiver.
———————————————————————-
US Legal – FOIA Remedies
https://freedomofinformationacts.uslegal.com/remedies-available-for-agency-non-compliance-with-foia/
———————————————————————-
Remedies Available for Agency Non-Compliance With FOIA
The FOIA provides a comprehensive list of remedies against agencies and individuals for erroneously withholding requested information. The remedies that are available under the FOIA include:
– An order for injunction[i];
– Writ of mandamus or a civil action in the nature of mandamus;
– An order for damages (recognized only in some states); and
– An order for production of agency records[ii].
Any person denied a copy or examination of a public record can enforce his/her rights and privileges by a petition for mandamus or injunction. A petition for injunction must be filed with a circuit court having jurisdiction in the county in which such rights and privileges are denied. The petition must be supported by an affidavit showing good cause. Such a petition will be heard within seven days from petition date.
Failure by a public body to provide public information is clearly duty violation and in such cases, statutory mandamus is the appropriate remedy. A writ of mandamus is governed by equitable principles. Normally a writ of mandamus will not be awarded if the exercise of such discretion would contravene the overall scheme of a state open records act.
Willful or unlawful refusal to applicants’ requests by a government official or agency is also subjected to punitive damages.
Generally, under states public-records laws, a minimum of $100 and other actual costs are awarded as damages for non fulfillment of an applicant’s request[xi]. Thus, a person seeking a right to inspect or to receive a copy of a public record will be awarded with reasonable attorney’s fees and other costs of litigation.
———————————————————————-
Thanks for that reply WTKTT. I do hope some of these public servants read your explanation and realize they draw their paychecks for the very reason to serve the public. Gary Olson mentions that he had put some of these public servants (YSO employees behind bars) because those individuals at that time believed they were above the law even though they were hired to enforce the law. I personally would not give a damn if the YSO all had fully automatic weapons and believe that law is an infringement upon the second amendment, Who the hell wants or needs a fully automatic weapon anyway and the ones I have fired do not impress me one bit mostly a waste of ammo. But if you like driving a tank down dirt roads rather than a 4×4 it might be a good idea since that might be your definition of fun. Shit if you love flying down the dirt road on a quad or a 4×4 so be it. Where did I live that I hated quads since they dig up every rock in the road and make it almost impassable for any regular vehicle. I though if you buy one of them damn things why not keep it off the road where it belongs. Dirt bikes the same–and I have had a number of those and even used to trap of one.
So it goes, the man serving the public is responsible to the public more than himself. His bread and butter is off tax dollars.
Ok so this world has become a greater police state. If you go into Joy’s Weaver Estate, every house has funny bulged corners and every house has a tiled roof. All the colors must be pastel–if some homo goes there and paints his house purple, he will be attacked by every neighbor. They will likely take a weed burner to him.
Hitler would love this area and of course his houses would have the swastika and iron cross. Every house that did not have his norm would be invaded with jack booted SS and those people would be either shot or sent to the labor camps in stripped suits. We in America are getting near to that position being the largest population of prisoners and even in my way of thinking educated so well that not only are the people in prison prisoners, but the people outside.
We worry about Trump causing a nuclear war, but instead the rogue Muslims that we have brought into this nation will do this destruction from the inside of the country in my opinion. Of course not all are rogue but you have already seen enough of them that don’t give a shit about their own lives and damn sure do not give a shit about the lives of the many they kill before they go down. To kill 14 like they did in California was only because they could not kill 200,000 and did not have the means. But of course these people are not stupid, many educated in our Universities and somehow they will design or retrieve suitcase bombs or other devices they will build in storage units or rented warehouses that will take out cities.
If you look at people like Hillary pussyfooting with the Arabs and getting millions sent to her coffers so she believed she would win the presidency then you uderstand. These people understand the gravity of what they have done but power and money they have moves them to live sweet off the oil Arabia has. Don’t forget the top dogs that run this country have underground bunkers they plan to live in when the shit hits the fan. I doubt many of us common folk will get an invitation to join. Go knock on the Denver underground facility and you will be looking down the barrel of an AR-15.
Of course torch the old prospector, miner and his fellow woodsman or desert rat. Strangely they may be the only survivors left when the shit does hit the fan.
Do not forget the Byzantine empire lasted over 900years until they started using Muslim mercernaries. They were allowed to settle in after their mercenary escapades and once they did and multiplied the empire was divided and destroyed.
Looking at our history we had our worse war among ourselves–even worse in killing than the Irish of the North and South division. One way to rule is to divide and conquer. England has done that well enough in Ireland. But the division we had over slavery (a lie in itself) if studied correctly–will be a small thing once this country brings in a larger Muslim population. You boys think Hitler was an ass, wait until the Muslims do this country in–you women better get to practicing using the berka.
Of course it will be in due time yet likely sooner than anticipated by many. When you have CIA and FBI knowing this and talking about it, then why isn’t the public informed? Well, hell, when you have people like the Clintons and Bushes drawing in millions into their back pockets from the shieks how can they bad mouth these people that have designs to destroy this country? Nineteen of the 911 killers were Suadi Arabian, yet the Suadi’s in this country were flown out when absolutely no other planes were allowed in the air. Then we go after Iran, nothing to do with Saudi Arabia–saying that they were back of 911. It goes to show the games our politicians are willing to play with these people even while they are working to assure our downfall.
Hey I don’t want in Hillary’s bunker or Bushes–and damn sure not Trumps. Let those look alikes live together. I will fare the radioactive winds and kill as many of the bastards that do the bombing as possible–that is if still alive and not a radioactive shadow on the sidewalk.
On a lighter side Dr. Phil was analyzing Shelly Duvall and I watched that. Shelly is more sane than Dr., Phil. He wanted to drug her up and she knows her problem is physical and not mental. He wants to put people on the Thorazine shuffle road instead of addressing her physical malady. Phil need the pill–maybe he can get some sense by using his own meds.
Ok, look at the Muslim enclaves–Minnesota when I was there had them. California, Texas, etc—states are getting these muslim states within their states. Obama is sad he cant bring more of these settlements in. The more you bring in, the more there will be here once this country is I believe destroyed by nukes. The Muslim belief of martyrs means the ones here that die are going to get their virgins–I dont know what the virgins get when they die–I hope it aint those crusty looking men I see on the battle grounds. But to kill as many of the infidels as possible is like putting more stars in your crown–How do people wind up subscribing to such nonsense? Yet they do–bumping of heads must do something to the brain.
Charlie says
NOVEMBER 19, 2016 AT 9:48 AM
On a lighter side Dr. Phil was analyzing Shelly Duvall and I watched that. Shelly is more sane than Dr., Phil. He wanted to drug her up and she knows her problem is physical and not mental. He wants to put people on the Thorazine shuffle road instead of addressing her physical malady. Phil need the pill–maybe he can get some sense by using his own meds.
MY REPLY: you also Sonny can go here and donate and the funds will go direct to her getting her alternative methods… https://www.gofundme.com/shelley-duvall OR snail mail her direct a support letter / Holiday card or check to 404 Red Bud Trail Blanco Texas 78606-5070 or something to help her skin—Alot of people think tv is what they see but alot of people do not GET how productions works…So here are a few questions to ask oneself. How is budget calculated, season wise or episode by episode? How is earning or profit calculated? Is it only through advertisement? Remember what month Dr. Phil placed her on his show- November sweeps…and SOOOOOO say he did a 4-6 hour interview and then he has to piece it together and redact and edit into one hour show so now he has to decide does he present it purely— NO; THAT DOES NOT MAKE MONEY- –so there you have the poor end results MUCH LIKE the SAIR…and that is the bottom line…he took words she spoke and moved it around to “narrate” what he wanted to show the world but I always SEE what is not being said or seen and plus I know behind the scenes because I did have that phase to my life myself and I knew and still do some of thee most elite in that industry…it is a different world…so common folks watch a tv show with the belief that’s it…then people start thinking she has to be mentally ill because SHE SAID OUT OF THIS WORLD STUFF but noone but production knows what was setup that way and which questions were asked to create the end results and again much like the SAIR…
just saying…
Reply to Diane Lomas post on November 15, 2016 at 5:29 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Early days of the Fire:
>>
>> Possibly on Saturday June 29th,2013, as the fire began to get out of control, didn’t BLM
>> volunteer to take over this responsibility… and Arizona Forestry rejected the offer?
That is CORRECT…
…including WHEN BLM Representative Dean Fernandez asked Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate if he wanted him to ‘take over the fire’… but Shumate refused the offer.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> Wondering how different the outcome may have been if BLM took control then
>> instead of after it was out of control and why Arizona Forestry declined initially.
It all could have been a LOT different… up to ( and including ) the facts that if Dean Fernandez HAD been ‘running the show’ on Saturday… there probably would have been no ‘escaped fire’, no larger fire to ‘battle’ on Sunday, no subsequent “Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting” that would kill 19 men… and we would not even be here having this ongoing discussion about it.
Dean Fernandez arrived WITH BLM Helicopter N14HX on Saturday… and Fernandez was perfectly aware it came to Yarnell ‘bucket ready’. Fernandez testifed to the SAIT that he was the one who had been urging Shumate to get a ‘pumpkin’ set up several times during the day on Saturday… and to start using Helicopter N14HX for ‘drops’ in support of what the 6 members of the Lewis crew were doing out on the ridge… but Shumate refused until it was too late in the day to make any difference because the fire had ALREADY ‘escaped’ containment out on the ridge.
Excerpts from BLM rep Dean Fernandez’s SAIT interview…
———————————————————————————-
Dean Fernandez
Interviewed by SAIT Co-leads Jim ( Karels ) and Mike ( Dudley ), 07/14/2013
ICT3 qual’d brought in as a Rep for BLM because the fire was a threat to BLM land as a T3 IC, Engine Captain in Phx/BLM. Dean is AA on Reinartz T1 Team
Saturday, June 29, 2013
* Saturday morning went to Weaver Mtn Helibase and went in the helo and scouted the fire, it looked good, innocent. They landed and picked people up and took the crew members out
* Russ the IC said go down there and get 6 people and fly them to the top. SEATS were dropping on top but it didn’t look to be boxed in completely and rough terrain.
* Dean was acting as a Rep and suggested several times to get a pumpkin set up, but it wasn’t happening… later on the fire picked up which was a surprise. It jumped the line.
* Dean Fernandez asked Arizona Forestry’s IC Russ Shumate “Do you want me to take over the fire?” Russ replied, “Am I doing something wrong? No, I just wanted to make sure.”
* Dean felt Russ could have been a little more aggressive…
————————————————————————————
So, according to Dean Fernandez, he had URGED IC Russ Shumate to go ahead and get a pumpkin set up for ‘Bucket Drops’ ( somewhere, anywhere ) SEVERAL times on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Fernandez really could NOT have been insisting the pumpkin be set up for ANY kind of ‘structure protection’ reasons because on Saturday… this was simply NOT an issue and no one really thought it ever would be.
There were NO STRUCTURES being threatened in any way all day Saturday.
Saturday was all about the small 2-4 acre fire up on the ridge and supporting the DOC Lewis crew that had been set up to take care of things. Any of the ‘several’ suggestions from Fernandez to Shumate on Saturday’ about ‘setting up a pumpkin’ must have been with the intent of getting some ‘Bucket Drops’ going to support the paltry 6 members of the Lewis DOC crew that had been tasked with ‘containing’ the fire that day.
Fernandez had ARRIVED with Helicopter N14HX and Fernandez KNEW it came with a ‘Bambi Bucket’ and ( apparently ) spent a lot of time on Saturday wondering why it wasn’t being put to use, and was, indeed, repeatedly URGING IC Russ Shumate to ‘set up a pumpkin’ and get ‘Bucket Drops’ going in support of the Lewis DOC crew.
Shumate never did.
At no time in ANY of his ‘Unit Logs’ or ‘Interviews’ with both SAIT investigators does Russ Shumate make ANY MENTION of this moment on Saturday when BLM rep Dean Fernandez says he asked Shumate if he wanted him to ‘take over the fire’.
However… when he was actually ASKED about this moment during his second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews… Shumate says he “doesn’t recall” anything like that ever happening…
Q5 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate
——————————————————————————
822 Q5: Yeah. Did uh, did Dean offer to take over as IC at some point in time?
823
824 A: I don’t recall him ever offering that. I – I don’t think – the understanding was
825 it was a State fire so I was the commander and he was just sitting in my hip
826 pocket being my support.
——————————————————————————
BLM rep Dean Fernandez was not the only one who was feeling that Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate was not ‘up to the task’ on Saturday.
Helitack Nate Peck had his doubts, as well ( and ALSO expressed them to the SAIT investigators ).
SAIT Co-leads Mike Dudley and Jim Karels were also the ones who interviewed Helitack Nate Peck… who was one of the first firefighters dropped off at the ‘Helspot’ up on the Weaver Mountain ridge on Saturday morning.
Helitack Nate Peck would REMAIN ‘up there’ all day helping the 6 members of the Lewis Department of Corrections ( DOC ) crew try and ‘mop up’ the mostly inactive fire.
When the fire ultimately ‘escaped’ ( during a Helicopter hovering action ) and jumped over the two-track road… Helitack Nate Peck would end up spending the night up there on the ridge and would not be removed from that area until Sunday morning, along with the other Lewis crewmembers who had also ‘spent the night’ up on the ridge.
Some excerpts from the SAIT interview with Nate Peck… including the part where Nate Peck says he had (quote) “little faith in IC ( Russ Shumate ) and the process” ( or lack thereof ) that was being used on Saturday to fight the fire…
———————————————————————————-
Interviewed Nate Peck,
CT4 and FFT1 with Moki Helitack NE Washington;
Coleville NF assistant Engine Operator
Interviewed by Mike and Jim 07/13/2013
* Approaching Yarnell Hill, working fire with SEATS.
* Making contact w/ IC in Yarnell, requests placement of firefighters on the fire. He gets dropped off at helispot around 1000.
* Informed of 3 loads of firefighters coming up and he was to stay w/ the crew to assist. By 1030 everyone on the hill. Little to no activity on the fire. Perfect fire for an ICT5 trainee. Safety zone was the black. Using Tac 1 channel.
* About 1330/1345 picked up a little spot
* Name of IC? Yarnell Hill IC, no name never knew the IC’s name. (Must have been Russ) this is around 1630. Lewis Crew (con-crew) by this time its around 1800 fire is really moving at this time. Fire moving north, SEATS are continuing their work. Trying to secure the south line while fire is moving north.
* Right before dark, called IC and asked for intent. He was asked for his order for resources as intent. By this pt, fire is moving, SEAT dropped missed still need to tie in but no saw gas and not going to happen. Focus now is to secure the anchor point for the next morning’s work.
* I have felt that things were poor at this time and little faith in IC and process. Stayed on the clock with crew all night. I have struggled with the IC and process.
————————————————————————————
“I have felt that things were poor at this time and little faith in IC and process.”
Helitack Nate Peck
Smiles.
thank you
you did not know…but your comment answered an inquiry
thank you
In his FIRST ( of two ) ADOSH interviews, Russ Shumate actually admitted to ADOSH that Dean Fernandez was a “more experienced firefighter” than he was… and that is the reason he asked him to ‘hang around’ the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013… AFTER Shumate’s Inital Attack had now failed miserably and Shumate had to ‘ramp up’ and do a lot of resource ordering for Sunday…
A = Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate…
————————————————————————–
1279 A: The – as the fire progress through the night, doing our complexity analysis
1280 between myself and Dean Fernandez, who was BLM IC was – while not
1281 unified command he’s better – he’s a more experienced firefighter than I so I
1282 asked him to keep hanging with me.
————————————————————————–
Shumate’s OWN ‘description’ of Dean Fernandez… who was right there by his side all day Saturday…
“…he’s better – he’s a more experienced firefighter than I”
But all day Saturday ( according to Dean Fernandez’s own testimony to the SAIT investigators )… Russ Shumate had been REFUSING Fernandez’s ‘advice’ about getting a ‘pumpkin’ set up somewhere so that BLM Helicopter N14HX could use the ‘Bambi Bucket’ that it CAME with to support the paltry 6 Lewis DOC crewmembers that Shumate had sent up to ‘mop up’ the fire.
You have to wonder what other ‘advice’ ( coming from the ‘more experienced firefighter Fernandez ) Shumate had also been ‘ignoring’ that day.
So Saturday really became a case where even though the operations were officially considered to be a ‘co-management’ between Arizona Forestry and BLM… and BLM resources WERE already being used for the ‘Initial Attack’… the firefighter with the ( admitted ) “less experience” was the one being allowed to run that Initial Attack…
…and this “firefighter with lesser experience” ( Shumate ) wasn’t even taking the ‘advice’ of the one with “more experience”.
And even later… when things started to go ‘sideways’ due to the poor decision making all day… when the “more experienced firefighter” then offered to “take over”… instead of Shumate saying…
“This thing is getting away from me. You’re the more experienced firefighter and we’re supposed to be co-managing this thing… so yea… why don’t you jump in here, Dean”.
All Shumate said to that offer of ‘help’ from the “more experienced firefighter” was…
“Why… am I doing something wrong?”.
Only when the fire finally ‘got away’ from Shumate because he hadn’t even bothered to ‘secure’ the EAST flank all day with ANY ‘retardant drops’ and/or ‘bucket drops’ ( as the ‘more experienced’ firefighter had been urging him to do all day Saturday ) did Shumate admit he was ‘over his head’ and asked the ‘more experienced firefighter’ to ‘hang around’ Saturday night and help him with all the resource ordering he now had to do for this ‘escaped fire’.
???
Interesting of WTKTT report about the hovering copter causing Nate Peck to spend the night after the hovering caused the fire to jump the two track. We saw the same hovering the next day causing the fire to advance and that also was witnessed by two other individuals from a vantage point with the copter in a different location. His vantage point was right next the Helms ranch. That individual was never interviewed. Apparently these helicopter hovers are great contributors to advancing fires and people observing the fires off the copters ought to be more careful with their observations. We could see enough from a distance and you would think these fellows would be more careful how they approach a fire with hovering copters.
Howard Bennet was the other Yarnell Resident seeing the hover action. He lives right below the Helms and has high boulders where he could observe the fire action, some drip torch action and events that were going on on the north side of Glen Isla just below the Helms. He was never interviewed –we talked to him last week at an auction going on next to him where his neighbor Bruce has gotten disgusted and feels he got shafted after his place burned. Bruce saw the photos about quads being up there on Friday evening immediately after the lightening strike —distance photos with one man getting off with something long in his hand–maybe a rifle or a shovel? That was never pursued by investigators.
Bruce is getting rid of all and going on the road. He has had enough of the problems the fire brought to him and wants to sell all and get away from it. Howard was angry with what he saw and he lost everything as well just as Bruce Brown had lost everything in the fire.
Neither of these people got any outside help–but we did see much bally hoo in the media where a number of folks got their homes replaced by local dispenser of donated funds–the Yarnell Recovery Group. Whether those funds were equitably distributed it is not known. I think Joy has put in FOIA’s to take a look at their actions and I am sure media has done so already. That information ought to be publicly posted since millions were donated, not only in sundry items but cash.
I should add Yarnell Recovery Group has not responded to her FOIA, but then they likely do not know the law that citizens have a right legally to know what people are doing when they become a public entity. To refuse records can be a misdemeanor and there is only a limited time to reply or if no reply a reason at least has to be given within 74 hours. Something about a misdemeanor and then felony. Maybe WTKTT will give the exact penalties since these people Joy has asked for FOIAs have all skirted the law until they were threatened with having a case brought against them. She did get apology letters from some for refusing her FOIAs –they had not known the severity of refusing to give out public information to the people they serve.
I will ask Joy to maybe tell the process of how to get FOIA information. There is a form I think you can download and print. The cost of a personal FOIA generally is minimal–some cost her nothing, some were six dollars, and some like the feds wanted $800 for one but are review the costs. You have that right to the information although a personal educational FOIA means you can not use that information in a public manner. However the FOIAs do give information to settle your mind and Joy says have answered many important questions that would have never been answered otherwise. If you want to go public, then you will have to pay a larger fee and inform the provider that you want that type FOIA.
You will likely have to be as tenacious as Joy is to finally get these, but they are worth the trouble if you are indeed wanting to get at the truth. Seems every roadblock possible will go up with some public service groups while others will gladly give out the information. I applaud Prescott Fire Dept and Congress and Wickenburg departments.. \\\\ They are not witholding like some other Fire Departments. Both Yarnell and Peoples Valley drag their feet, Yarnell still sitting upon information belonging to the public.
Maybe we can get Fernanda Santos of the Arizona Republic to look into this and get her own public report for the news media.
The Peeples Valley Dept. says they have nothing on the Yarnell Fire, that the FS took their records. So Joy was told to go there to get their records. They do have the Tenderfoot fire records and you can get those at no charge –maybe the copy paper charge.
Reply to Charlie post on
November 17, 2016 at 9:10 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> The Peeples Valley Dept. says they have nothing
>> on the Yarnell Fire, that the FS took their records.
Horseshit.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> So Joy was told to go there to get their records.
More Horseshit.
Keyword: “THEIR records”.
As per Arizona Open Records Laws ( and the part about ‘Custodial Retention of Records’ )… if you ask an agency for records they are SUPPOSED to have… then it is THEIR ( legal ) responsibility to supply them to you.
As in… if they acknowledge the records are ‘theirs’… but try to say they don’t ( currently ) have them… then it’s still THEIR responsibility to go and get their OWN records BACK… and then fulfill the Open Records request.
Charlie says
NOVEMBER 17, 2016 AT 9:07 AM
You will likely have to be as tenacious as Joy is to finally get these, but they are worth the trouble if you are indeed wanting to get at the truth.
Maybe we can get Fernanda Santos of the Arizona Republic to look into this and get her own public report for the news media.
MY REPLY TO SONNY: I am not too energetic nowadays when my suppose to be dear friends who state they care about me can easily drop me or call me a busybody because I read something never made public in a FOIA and I cannot talk on it to ANYONE but in it I read something very damaging criminally to someone I know as the desert walker felt if I cannot tell the data I will let Dwight from YCSO and BLM investigations know I do plan to let the fella know to get his own foia for his own clarity and I know alot of firefighters and rangers and people ingrained to USFS/BLM and I know alot of ranchers too and it has been a battle because one side feels one way as the other feels another sometimes sound and sometimes not so sound from both sides…like a no win situation…I am at the point because my health is not up to par and I seem to be labelled by even people I care about that leave it alone and let that person figure it out but we are talking about people’s family I know and have always granted me hiking rights and has not restricted me like I seen from the state…
I feel like I have been not on a trail the past few years but trial by fire…and the suspense is literally gonna kill me…the heat of the Arizona desert at extreme temps are much tolerable than the past few years
oh and about Fernanda—she never was in this to investigate— she was there for the loved ones to share the story from that area
The ‘Fernanda Santos’ book contains the absolute MOST factual inaccuracies of all THREE of the books that have been published ( so far ).
Just look at her ‘Timeline’ at the back of the book.
Most of it is TOTALLY WRONG.
So yea… she really wasn’t interested in what happened.
She was only interested in being able to leverage her ‘access’ to the widows and family members and then ( eventually ) brag about the fact that only she was able to interview at least one family member for ALL of the deceased Hotshots.
Gary Olson says
NOVEMBER 18, 2016 AT 7:35 AM
Joy,
Since you think they may kill you, the best thing you can do to save yourself is to write everything you know and post it in a public place, say…on this blog.
And then they wouldn’t have any reason to kill you because their secrets would already be out.
Except for revenge that is…but then we would know who killed you and that would make it easier for us to mourn you loss. So….
In addition to what I said down below I say,
Not only that Joy…but if you go to meet your maker sooner rather than later, you will go at peace knowing you had shared all you know on this thread…and therefore leave a lasting memory for us to remember and honor you by.
The knowledge and information you share here with us…will truly be a lasting monument to your very existence and give true meaning to your life. Which frankly…up until now seems a little chaotic and pointless (no offense).
So…give it up!
P.S., Now don’t be harsh with me…you know I was just joking with that last sentence, but I am serious about the rest of it. It’s time for you to quit screwing around and give it up.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fe/fa/fa/fefafa48cdd3870abd694a1dca06a3be.jpg
Gary, Gary, Gary….shaking my head…very sad, actually…you appear to have all the necessary skills and attributes to get one to OPEN UP but this gal does not have slanted eyes or a body that can be hung up in your garage as a calendar anymore (there was a phase you could have) or if you were in your tube going down the salt river with your “show me your tits” sign I would of never showed them just because Gary had the sign up…and all I got left nowadays is my VERY very thick skin…so you cannot shake me that easy to spill it…
I am not Hillary Clinton- who is shady and hiding things or keeping the data or buddy up to the enemy like I have seen many sources do here after the YHF but the data I have or have seen was obtained either by an area I am not totally “yet” up to par what the “laws” are for the ones in nepotism/crony/etc/city dad/etc/etc/etc POWER breaking the laws already so I can just IMAGINE what they would do if I did as you say… Plus you and alot of people do not know the meaning to why I was born—I do and it is not this trial by fire but He knows —and the people He guided me to since I was born. Sonny and Charlie M. are the only ones who stated the “scare” tactic that I could get killed but I only put out public in such fashion because there is that possibility but who knows…I cannot live life worried when I can pray all that unfolds man made or not that I am cloaked in His guidance and protection…This “whole make public on the forum” is getting NOWHERE really and you of all people know that Gary…I would only be exposing myself and information to potential government trolls and arrogant egos.. PAYING FOR MY TIME ….the costs of foias is about all the cost I want—not looking for the ONES to throw me in a system on some bogus whatever because I doubt you are going to supply me Gary the fresh ginger for all my vomiting episodes and my extra soft with aloe and e toilet paper because I don’t do the cardboard cheap stuff and I lost my natural ways to my lips so I am tied to coconut oil because I cut out chap-stick and I need my pure ice baths for inflammation and my cardio time I can only do in my solo space because I have no problem when my body looked like it did years ago to do a gym or be in front of others but it is down right ridiculous to see a hippo exercise…no insecurities just how it is…and I am very in tune to my medical massages and keeping up with lymphatic homework exercises…list goes on Gary but I rather be mindful but if I can get the data than go do it too… anyone …I mean I have asked off the wall data from the most off the wall areas and in that is when it links to this than that…however the only BONUS I do have is I do know the people locally and within the tricities too so that helps too…I also should not be “in the system” due to anothers corruption having good taxpayers pay for another person wrongfully in the system…
What would be cool if with NO ADVANCE NOTICE we all here just meet up in person…so the “good ol’ boys” did not know of the time and date and location and share it all…
SONNY is correct… GARY is bombastically WRONG… there ARE several instances, that I personally know of (re: miners’ cabins and Forest/BLM..) and I bet if people had a voice and paid this site mind to speak up they could say so too but most are of the older generation and don’t pay computers much mind never-the-less InvestigativeMEDIA…”HEY-BIG-G” and ALL OTHER FEDERAL AGENTS— permission to enter upon one’s property (YES-IN-AMERICA… STILL… LAW-OF-THE-LAND) “one’s land” does not mean federal agent does it???… YET, THAT HAS NOT STOPPED THEM IN PROPERTY OWNERS’ ABSENCE AND “WHEN CONFRONTED”… THEY DO LEAVE, BECAUSE THAT IS STILL THE LAW (at least, for “yet-a-while-longer”)….Gary- I knew people who were in jobs you had or FBI or that platform level…THEY ARE TRAINED TO USE EVERY TRICK IN THE PAID-AND-TRAINED-AGENT’S-BOOK, TO ENTRAP and you know the rest but I may not be well but I know better than to get nasty speaking or have you Gary ever seen a 12 to 16 days after ovulation woman jump into a shark tank…well…
comment-of-the-expert-analysis-day…Gary can you do the same…take a peek at Helms Homestead and their housepaint that was blistered and measuring out that weekend of what exactly happened there. I think that property and Bruce Brown and The Bennetts are crucial to the investigation to the YHF…
I’d be interested in having, BOTH, WTKTT and WOODSMAN address, btw… just, HOW HIGH AND HOW MUCH (they can list the variables, themselves) “WILD”FIRE is a good WFF able to confront and be expected to “outflank and steer”…to confront and defeat…
WOODSMAN- please “come in from the cold”… to leave your avatar and hidden identity at the door… to come to near Montana and sit down with all of us and learn of so much more because it cannot be done here on a public forum.
Well, my reply is the data is out there and if a hiking housewife can get it—I can just IMAGINE what a person who lost these men who have been gifted LOTS OF MONIES can get if they too dig for the data—and NO AMOUNT OF MONIES would get me to SPEAK UP—
“Joy, I will pay you $500,000 for the data you have and if you will sit down and tell me your journey”…I would decline it. I am not Donut saying the data will die with me because all along I am ensuring the data WILL NOT die with me…but I am saying I am not well enough to battle the evil egos out there— You know it Gary too…noone can go up against the entities I seen the data on unless we get the right political backing…
also Gary…
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e2/0d/36/e20d36ea67ee510eae5f69c87fa091a0.jpg
either one in office…eek!
I can state this…enough of the Bush and Clintons and lets get some STRONG decent “leaders” to the platform…the photo says it don’t matter…it is all the same except Trump is the new kid on the block so get your backpacks ready for the just in cases because they are prepared but are the common folks? If the electric went out right now— are you ready for the long road?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/5a/ac/d3/5aacd3d3dc20598bfeda64f3900f07c9.jpg
sometimes we all can be on same page but think differently…
https://pics.onsizzle.com/so-is-this-a-date-no-its-a-fig-3796144.png
I mean the ant asked if it was a date…meaning romance but the other “took it” as the meaning was about food so we just need more people to come and open up…
EEK!
WELL! How Dare You! I never yelled anything SUCH thing at anyone woman! I said SOME did….but I never even looked when they did!
Although it WAS harder not to look when some women came in and took showers with us (in those open military type communal showers) in fire camps because they were pissed off the women shower time was only from 1;00 am to 1;30 am.
I guess those were what you could call the good old days? Although the water was pretty cold so I don’t know how impressed they were?
I started that comment using you in scenarios that even if I was in them with you…I would not and as you know just doing my yoda ways…but cold showers are the best and probably why I have such a sharp memory because it increases alertness…good for hair and skin..improves the immune system…but I do it to try and turn the bad fat into good fat and lose some and for my lymphatic system…good for my muscles..relieves those hard days…Lipinski always said start the shower very cold…the deep breathing in response to the cold- our body’s shock helps us keep warm, as it’s increases our overall oxygen intake.
Gary, take the 33 day challenge of a cold shower daily and get back to me how it has changed your life—see how much energy it gives your body…so there is POWERS TO BE but that is where I am POWERFUL—
Hmmmmm….that all sounds very tempting, but I think I am going to stay with hot showers whenever and wherever possible, but thank you so much for the suggestion.
The Woodsman is pissed off at me. Eventually I piss everybody off one way or the other. It is really hard being me.
Have you ever heard the parable of the scorpion and the turtle?
Yep, Joy did just that. When I had asked for a gal that could stand using an outhouse on the trails–she not only could do that but I noticed in the cold of winter with wind blowing heavy and snow on the ground and snow falling she was outside using my rigged outdoor shower– ice cold water only. I thought I had an eskimo gal there. She did that in Navajo Lake Utah as well in the harshest snow conditions using the Mountain Springs.
https://youtu.be/gBwz8p8ceoI
Yep…that’s the one. I guess it’s true…everything is on You Tube these days.
Not pissed off. Busy doing the things woodsmen do in the month of November. Priorities, man!
Hey Woodsman…so what I got from that is Gary is not priority…smiles….oh geez…you aint winning November sweeps here…
for gary-
https://twitter.com/JoeFuckinPesci/status/799079193891979266
hate to break it to you…he was caught out with the dude…
Reply to Charlie post on November 17, 2016 at 8:55 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I should add Yarnell Recovery Group has not responded
>> to her FOIA, but then they likely do not know the law
>> that citizens have a right legally to know what people
>> are doing when they become a public entity.
The ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ is NOT a ‘public/governmental agency’ and. as such, is under no obligation to respond to any Arizona Open Records and/or Federal level FOIA requests.
But they ARE a duly-registered 501(3)C non-profit corporation… and some of their ‘financials’ are REQUIRED to be ‘public information’.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-391482
Russ shumate:
Why Didn’t shumate nt follow suggestion to set up pumpkin earlier on Saturday as encouraged?
Ego or something else?
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 17, 2016 at 2:28 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Russ shumate:
>>
>> Why Didn’t shumate nt follow suggestion to set up pumpkin
>> earlier on Saturday as encouraged?
>>
>> Ego or something else?
The closest thing to an ‘explanation’ that Russ Shumate ever gave for WHY he had NOT been using Helicopter N14HX for ‘Bucket Drops’ all day Saturday came in his first ADOSH interview.
Ignoring the fact that the Helicopter was available almost ALL DAY… Shumate focused on the late afternoon when he says the paltry-few 6 firefighters he had sent up there to do the Initial Attack called him and told him the fire was now ‘creeping’ and starting to ‘get away from them’.
Shumate says only then ( very late in the afternoon ) did he finally consider using the Helicopter that had been available to him almost all day.
But even then… he told ADOSH he thought it would be better to use the Helicopter to just send some ‘bladder bags’ up there to those men rather than use the ‘Bambi Bucker’ that the Helicopter came with.
Here is that ‘decision making’ that he described to ADOSH… including the part where Shumate admits that WHILE the Helicopter was hovering directly over the fire to deliver the Bladder Bags ( his decision versus bucket drops )… that is when the fire ‘flared up’ and ‘jumped’ over the EAST flank two-track road.
From Russ Shumates first ( of two ) ADOSH interviews, on August 15, 2013…
A = Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate
———————————————————————
1085 A: It was probably less than that because it was on the grass that they were
1086 describing to me. Uh, at that point I decided — because it didn’t look like we
1087 were gonna get the thunderhead buildups — I was going to fly more people up
1088 there to help them deal with the creep. We – discussion was should we put
1089 Bambi buckets – run it up there. My determination was what the – what the
1090 altitude density and the efficiency of a Bambi bucket I would probably be
1091 dumping less than 50 gallons a load.
1092
1093 Q2: Yeah.
1094
1095 A: So the determination was well, let’s sling up bladder bags. So the plan was to
1096 sling up — as I recall — 12 bladder bags. A bladder bag is a 5 gallon backpack
1097 of water.
1098
1099 Q: Okay.
1100
1101 A: Um, so we slung load that up there while that sling load was occurring was
1102 when the fire on the – against the two track picked up and spotted over.
———————————————————————
“…WHILE that sling load was occurring was when the fire on the – against the two track picked up and spotted over.”
In other words… the ‘rotor wash’ from this ‘hovering directly over the fire’ operation’ is what most likely CAUSED the ‘flare up’ and the ‘spot over’… and so began the SECOND ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ which would eventually result in “The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting” and the deaths of 19 men.
coming here with vulnerability in my voice and a choked up throat
ATTENTION
Dear Loggers and Ranchers across the USA-
I am not media and I am not writing a book but I need your help in any that have been falsely accused tied to any fires I just read in one of my foias someone I know has been and I am going to have to do the right thing and not share the data but request this person get his own FOIA as it is crucial –
(I am in communication with first hand folks on some fires besides YHF)…or Ranchers/Loggers—if you had a bad aftermath like being limited access to your own property after a fire…or the promise to re-seed ended up with “junk” weeds and little grass patches as the results or restrict an area until it is considered pristine nature and safe from erosion/floodplain or your area is now labelled an economic burden. I know there is actions played on East coast but my focus is central to west coast fires- I need you ranchers to “step up” and sit down for a very “informative” interview with the desert walker. I have enough data now that I am actually afraid for my life and its not paranoid and I have made sure the proper people have the access to see the same data in case something happens to me in some way and it could— I promise you if you are really trying to piece the puzzle to YHF…do not be surprised how mathematically it does not make sense how many fires are happening…if you are John Dougherty searching for a story— get from BLM their investigation reports and any all data pertaining to these fires but add in Tepee Springs Fire – I threw up which is not abnormal when I read it but it “affected” me deeply. This foia was not at all redacted…I found that to be very odd. The data in it even odder. I sent an addendum to them of corrections needed especially about my account- WWTKTT- Moki Helicopter on YHF…any already public data may it be billing…payroll or times they spent on YHF…that is a focus to my life and could be useful to me..S. Ellis/.Ruby Mountain Hotshot Crew- I would like a sit down with you. I have some direct in person questions for Fire and Aviation Directorate H. Hedrick. Also after ALL God has led to the hikers—I have GBCC and Moki helitack shelved but you never left my interests since 2014- and my interest as we all know the division this election is the “possibility” the electric is down and I would like to sit down with National Multi-Agency Coordination Group and see what they have arranged for the even bigger package and then there is one of these things where Gary is expressing himself and has such freedom but what about the real issues because Trump is just another puppet to some other area…the only difference is he is the new kid on the block…and I so appreciate the “awareness” of Woodsman…how come Woodsman we do not really hear much on the what ifs on the electric being down…and how will it affect us state by state…town by town and nationally…the “working people” and common folk level to which Gary refers, has absolutely NOTHING to do with “officialdom and continuity of govt plans”..they are ready but are YOU…Nov 13 12:46pm there was a challenge made by Gary…yet where is the focus to the “Kool Aid” folks who never question the data Gary…question for Bob Powers and Gary: do you know “beyond” the USFS/BLM propogandas? what if the “problem” has not yet been touched on IM and I am serious with much sickness to my way of things that I seen data that has me down right scared to share with purity…to see the fact vs fiction…did Bob Powers go hands on for a physical inspection of the Lowman ID fire? Is John Dougherty paying attention to the Summer counter hits to this Falls? Has your eyebrows raised in the most intense way? Does anyone comprehend the severe potential personal danger I am in for the data I read…not even the book writers asked the questions I did in their FOIAS…could you imagine the book if we the hikers wrote it as it all unfolded…it is of the utmost importance that we all get together in person up by Montana and will it take having prestige people you could never meet unless you knew who I know…who is the one to draw you to go…Sorry George Burns passed on…http://www.greatlifequotes.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Burnsgracie.jpg and at times Sonny reminds me of him so…let’s see…WHO would get you to take this more serious…all the eyes seem to be drawn to an area that need not be…and even the questions are limited to why these men left a safe area…but still years later no answers in any foia on why the pumpkin was placed on the Helms…can you help me Shumate? Fernandez? I wish I could share the interconnections to one another and Gary it has nothing to with Smokejumpers vs Wildland firefighters and Hotshots yet your book…the rise of the hybrid is an interest to me…very much so…and do not allow an election split us apart at any seams and the crack will open soon enough…I am tired of typing as much as you are probably as tired of reading or skimming this but YES there is data that is necessary but YES I am scared to really sit here and its ugly…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 16, 2016 at 8:43 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> still years later no answers in any foia on why the pumpkin was placed on
>> the Helms…can you help me Shumate? Fernandez?
According to Russ Shumate himself ( in one of his two ADOSH interviews)… it was fellow BLM employee and ‘Duty Officer’ Bruce Olsen who had ‘identified’ the two potential ‘locations’ for ‘pumpkins’…
One right off Highway 89 and near the Ranch House Restaurant… and the other one out at the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ ( for Helicopter use ).
Bruce Olsen was the BLM ‘Duty Officer’ who had been dispatched to Yarnell on Friday night, along with Shumate, when there was still that confusion about whether or not the Friday lightning strike fire was on Arizona State State Trust Land OR whether it was on BLM land.
BLM ‘Duty Officer’ Bruce Olsen and Arizona Forestry ‘Duty Officer’ Russ Shumate were the ones making the decisions on Friday night.
BLM IC Dean Fernandez would not get involved ( and relieve Olsen ) until Saturday morning, when Fernandez arrived in Yarnell ONBOARD BLM Helicopter N14HX.
It was ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna who asked Russ Shumate directly if the choice of setting up a ‘pumpkin’ out at the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ was ‘for the helicopter’… and Shumate said YES… that was the reason for setting it up there. It was the closest thing to the fire on Saturday that was still accessible via normal roads and driveways so that it could be easily ‘re-filled’ via engines and/or water-tenders.
Setting it up at the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ represented the ‘shortest flight time’ for any Helicopter doing ‘Bucket Drops’ up there on the original fire.
It was only later when it became known that ( according to his own testimony to the SAIT ) BLM IC Dean Fernandez had BEEN urging Shumate to get that pumpkin set up for the Helicopter ‘several times’ during the day on Saturday… but Shumate IGNORED that ‘advice’ from the more-experienced Fernandez every time he suggested it… until it was then too late in the afternoon for it to have made any difference.
From Russ Shumate’s first ( of two ) ADOSH interviews… on August 15, 2013…
Q1 = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
A = Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate
————————————————————————————
2140 Q1: And what was at the ranch house there in Yarnell itself and where was the
2141 other water tank that they – because they told me they were shuttling water all
2142 night. Was it the Helms ranch house, did you guys use that?
2143
2144 A: I don’t know what the Helms ranch house is. I was told that – Bruce Olson
2145 cited them – he identified two spots and I don’t know where the first spot was
2146 it was south of the fire station east of the highway.
2147
2148 Q1: Okay.
2149
2150 A: I had never saw it he knew where it was and I let him run that. The other one
2151 might, my understanding was it was, we were calling Boulder Creek Ranch. I
2152 don’t know.
2153
2154 Q1: I had heard that term, but I don’t know where it is.
2155
2156 A: It was the safety zone that the – it was the ranch house down that that
2157 survived, with all the.
2158
2159 Q1: But Helms ranch is considered the Boulder Creek Ranch?
2160
2161 A: I don’t know what Helms ranch means.
2162
2163 Q1: Is that were we went?
2164
2165 Q2: I – I don’t know about Boulder Creek Ranch I know where Helms ranch is but.
2166
2167 A: It was through a locked gate, so
2168
2169 Q1: Well that’s the same
2170
2171 Q2: That’s probably the one.
2172
2173 Q1: The big three houses with all the animals and.
2174
2175 A: Correct with all the wagons and.
2176
2177 Q2: Yeah, that’s gotta be it.
2178
2179 Q1: Okay. So they’re – that’s considered Boulder Creek Ranch.
2180
2181 A: That’s what it was being called to me.
2182
2183 Q1: And that was a designated – designated safety zone that that someone had to
2184 stage.
2185
2186 A: Well, not to us because our operations were involved right there.
2187
2188 Q1: We had a water tank though – a temporary water tank there for the helicopter?
2189
2190 A: I think Yarnell set up the folded tank in town. I know it was up pumpkin that
2191 got set up at that.
2192
2193 Q1: Okay, that sounds about right. That’s what they were trying to tell me and I’m
2194 trying to figure out where – because we went out to that ranch house – the
2195 Helms ranch house. We hiked up the ridge and everything so, I was trying to
2196 think. Did you assign Yarnell those duties or did Chief Koile?
2197
2198 A: Correct. I – I ordered – I ordered up their tender to do that because the
2199 discussion was are we gonna use Bambi buckets or crew shuttle. So I started
2200 that operation to give is options and we just ended up not using Bambi bucket
2201 operations we geared up for sling loaded crew shuttle. But that, we still set
2202 them up for potentially use by the incoming operations the next day.
——————————————————————
Well a pumpkin at BS ranch was good since they knew the GMHS were headed there and a lot of activity going on there. Do they have to get permission to put pumkins on private property. That would mean Helms had to be notified first if so and would have some time line as to when the pumpkin would be set up. This might correlate to the times when GMHS were on their way to BS ranch.
I am a firm believer that GMHS were ordered there into that dangerous situation and Marsh had no alternative but to follow orders if he wanted to remain solid with those above him.
Realize that he was having to prove his and the GMHS worth and had been doing it by taking assignments that more experienced men (Provencio and RTS) would refuse. He proved how the powers that are above you can get you and your men killed.
Seems like Howard told me he was watching a burn out in progress below the BS ranch. My hearing is bad so I am not sure but that pumpkin would be close by since the burn out he was mentioning would be along the north line of Glen Isla and almost directly west of Shrine area where Brandon said another burnout was in progress according to the Dr. Anderson testimony
Reply to Charlie post on November 17, 2016 at 2:10 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Well a pumpkin at BS ranch was good since they knew
>> the GMHS were headed there and a lot of activity going
>> on there.
The ‘pumpkin’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch was ‘set up’ sometime in the later afternoon / early evening of SATURDAY, June 29, 2013.
It had nothing to do with the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’, who would not even arrive in Yarnell until the NEXT DAY.
It was ‘set up’ there at the BSR ( on Saturday ) just in case Russ Shumate decided to finally use BLM Helicopter N14HX for ‘Bucket Drops’ to help assist the paltry-few 6 members of the Lewis DOC crew that had been sent up to do the entire ‘Initial Attack’ on the Saturday fire.
But it was set up too late in the day ( Saturday ) to make any difference.
It ( the pumpkin ) was still there all day Sunday, June 30, 2013… but there is no record of it actually being used by any ‘Helicopters’ on Sunday, either.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Do they have to get permission to put pumkins on private property.
Yes.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That would mean Helms had to be notified first
Yes… and it has always remained interesting that even when Lee and DJ Helm were ‘interviewed’… they have NEVER mentioned what happened on ‘Saturday’… and WHO they gave the ‘permission’ to for the pumpkin to be set up there in the middle of their compound.
Joy,
I don’t know anything more than I have written here, I have not been known to hold back…and I haven’t.
I mean…I thought I ran out of things to say a long time ago, but periodically something rings a bell and then I either remember, or think of something else to write about, you know…because I have discovered I am a serial blogger. But I haven’t held anything back that I know of, but more bells might be rung in the future?
Although this talk of your life being in danger is scary (and I am fearless) and either really hyperbolic…or you need to….I don’t know what, but if I think of something, I will let you know….I mean, WTF…Over?
I know Gary but have you spent time on the hybrid book because that’s interesting
BIG G so “interesting” that I know you will deliver a devilish page turner…the way your language here is one might see not only the breathe from the fire but maybe even the barely dressed woman where the shapes of her eyes you have no clue if she blinked- Maybe angels will be there too- Can I be Sister Joy and Brother Tex…since this all is still a part of His plan…we know and breathe your credentials but now it is time to see the action filled book….with atvs hovered on their sides and maybe even a Hail Mary plan of your own for the closing of the book…either way I will buy the book—
if your jeep looks like this—
https://lh3.ggpht.com/-VGK6J0IGk_U/UYqfD5Qo_-I/AAAAAAAAAn0/y8plOGwGRDg/s1600/article-0-19AAFDB3000005DC-667_634x432.jpg
might keep that fact out of the book though
Not yet.
Thank you for the words of encouragement.
Joy you are already affected and in danger of your life. Your health went south, just as about every person in Yarnell was affected. The Chemical Soup of AGENT ORANGE RETARDANT is a human health destroyer– Just look at the death count here and the sick count. You just about need to issue cripple plates (I have one) to every Yarnell resident as a result of the fire.
I don’t think the powers that be that order huge hundreds of thousands of gallons of deadly retardant next to residents are going to worry about cancelling your time on earth. They have already done that.
That post previous of course is my opinion–but a damn solid one. And I have smoked cigars a few times–and the few cigarettes I have smoked, I always tear off the filters–those polymers contain poisons far worse than the straight tobacco. And the tobacco plant these days is sprayed with toxins which eventually wind up in your lungs. Like the crop dusting of aluminum and barium oxides and whatever other chemicals used in coating the skys, that settle on our lungs, none are good chemicals for health.
The old time Indian smoked a tobacco off a natural plant untainted with chemical toxins. He was a hell of a lot safer–but remember the scare of the pot smokers when the feds were killing marijuana plants with toxins. The Mexicans just took those dead plants and sold their weed anyway toxins included. Lot of pot heads got sick from that shit. Kind of like Obama when he sold guns to the Mexican dope runners and some of our Border Agents got killed traced back to our own agents of Tobacco and Fire Arms.
Well the Dept. Of Agriculture is about to change hands so we might have some better attitudes in allowing the public to know more of the undercover actions that have persisted before in the FS and BLM. Give me some slack, $800 for a few FOIA questions in a private inquiry? What would a public one be.
In fact, the people serving us should bend over backwards to provide information to the people they serve. Instead they constantly show me that they will use every means possible to keep their actions among themselves and not out to public scrutiny. What gives there? I did not vote for Trump or Clinton. But maybe I will write him to see if his new administration is going to give the public access where it has nothing to do with National Security such as investigating terrorists.
Sonny said, “Well the Dept. Of Agriculture is about to change hands so we might have some better attitudes in allowing the public to know more of the undercover actions that have persisted before in the FS and BLM.”
And I say, If my experience with Republican Administrations mean anything, it is just about to get a whole lot worse. And remember…I used to be a Republican. I contributed money that helped Ronald Reagan get elected. So….
Reply to Diane Lomas post on November 16, 2016 at 7:59 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I believe that Darrel Willis was the last official on the ground directing
>> retardant drops on the Peeples Valley when air attack was directed
>> to go to Yarnell but didn’t.
That is not correct.
The ‘timeframe’ for when ‘Lead Plane’ ( Bravo ’33’ with Thomas French, John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross on board ) was ‘directed’ by the current ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ) to turn their attention to the Yarnell side of the fire was 3:50 PM.
That’s when we HEAR ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins TELLING Lead plane pilot Thomas French about the ( quote) “heck of a wind shift” and “we got a lot of fire headed toward Yarnell”. Collins TELLS him to turn his attention to Yarnell… and Thomas French acknowledged that ‘directive’ from ‘Air Attack’ by telling Collins he was now (quote) “headed that way”.
At this same time ( 3:50 PM )… there were still ( at least ) THREE people on the NORTH side of the fire who had the authority to be requesting retardant drops.
1. OPS1 Todd Abel ( Still in the Miner’s Camp Road area )
2. OPS2 Paul Musser ( Still in the Sickles Ranch Road area )
3. SPGS1 Darrell Willis ( Now actively doing burnouts in the Model Creek Road area ).
It’s also not technically ‘correct’ to say there were any retardant drops in the 3:50 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe in the ‘Peeples Valley’ area. The only drops made in that 40 minute timeframe between when Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD Thomas French to head to Yarnell ( and French said he was “headed that way” ) and when Thomas French actually finally DID get to the Yarnell side of the fire were drops made in the Miner’s Camp Road area ( where OPS1 Todd Abel was working ) and the Model Creel Road area ( where Darrell Willis was working ).
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> * Could Willis or Dan Sullivan have been the ones continuing to direct drops
>> from the ground during the 45 minute critical timeframe?
It’s possible ( and Todd Abel is also ‘included’ in the ‘possibilities’ ).
As for Darrell Willis… there actually IS a piece of ‘testimony’ from his SECOND ( of two ) ADOSH interviews ( On October 10, 2013 ) where Willis indicates he WAS ‘communicating’ with ‘Air Attack’ in this 40 minute ( 3:50 PM to 4:30 PM ) timeframe and those ‘communications’ WERE about getting some ‘Air Support’ to help him with the defensive efforts he was now undertaking in the ‘Model Creek Road’ area…
From Darrell Willis’ second ADOSH interview…
Q5 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS1 Darrell Willis
———————————————————————————
829 Q5: Oh, yeah, and that – that’s why I was asking the question, Darrell. So when –
830 when you – when you call air attack, you didn’t know who was gonna answer,
831 whether it was gonna be the air attack or the lead plane, the ASM or – or who
832 might answer that call.
833
834 A: Yeah, and I got corrected. Uh, I remember being corrected when we were
835 gonna take the Model Creek Road and try to burn and hold it. Um, I was
836 trying to call Bravo 33, and nobody’d answer. And then some – I think it was
837 Bravo 3 came up and said it’s – I’m, “No, Bravo 33 is gone. I’m Bravo 3.”
838 “Oh okay.” Well, you know, I didn’t realize what’s going on up there. I’ve
839 got my hands full down here.
———————————————————————————
So the ‘timeframe’ that Willis is referring to is AFTER he and his resources had relocated from the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ area to the ‘Model Creek Road’ area, and the ‘burn and hold’ operation he is referring to puts this attempt to communicate with ‘Air Attack’ into that same 3:50 to 4:30 PM ‘timeframe’.
The only reason Willis would have been trying to talk with ‘Air Attack’ in this ‘timeframe’ would have been to request ‘Air Support’ for the ‘burnouts’ he was now doing in the ‘Model Creek Road’ area.
And that is EXACTLY where we SEE the retardant drops being made by both SEATS and the VLAT circa 4:16 PM, when Thomas French was still using all available Air resources on the NORTH side of the fire, instead of on the SOUTH side where he had been instructed to go at 3:50 PM.
But as for Dan Sullivan… he remains a total ‘mystery man’.
So little is known about what he was actually doing all day Sunday in Yarnell… it’s impossible ( at this time ) to say if he had actually even been ‘talking’ to any of the ‘Air Attacks’ or the ‘Lead Planes’ that day… or having any conversations at all on the A2G or A2A channels.
NONE of the ‘Air Attacks’ or anyone else in and airplane over Yarnell that day ( who has been interviewed ) has EVER mentioned having ANY conversations with anyone named ‘Dan Sullivan’… or any other ‘ASGS’ person on the ground that Sunday.
Dan Sullivan was ‘hired’ to come and work the Yarnell Hill Fire at 9:34 AM on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013 ( As per Resource Order O-30 ). He was ‘hired’ to be an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ).
When he first arrived in Yarnell that Sunday, at 11:30 AM, it is documented that he then became the one who was assisting the other ASGS who had been hired at 10:49 PM the night before ( Brad Zettler – Resource Order O-16.2 ) as part of the ‘Type 2 Short Team’… and who was already there in Yarnell before Dan Sullivan was even ‘hired’ to come and assist at 9:34 AM on Sunday morning.
But Zettler was actually just functioning as ‘Helibase Manager’ at that time ( 11:30 AM ), and Sullivan then just became the one trying to help Zettler find a better ‘Helibase’ location.
ASGS Brad Zettler WAS interviewed by ADOSH, but AOBD Bob Ortlund and the other ASGS, Dan Sullivan, were not.
There are NO ‘Unit Logs’ in the evidence record from Bob Ortlund or Dan Sullivan, but there actually is a ‘Unit Log’ from ASGS Brad Zettler.
From Helibase Manager Brad Zettler’s Unit Log that wasn’t released until February of 2014…
————————————————————————————
1130
Dan Sullivan, a qualified Air Support Group Supervisor (ASGS) from
the Prescott National Forest arrived and offered to assist.
1150
Dan Sullivan and myself met with Don Glascow at the Incident
Command Post and discussed an alternative helibase location.
Don offered a private airstrip owned by the ranch. Dan (Sullivan)
said that he would check out the airstrip to see if it could safely
meet our needs.
————————————————————————————
Those are the ONLY two mentions of Dan Sullivan in Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log… but they prove that ASGS Dan Sullivan was there in Yarnell as early as 11:30 AM on June 30, 2013, and that Sullivan WAS ‘assisting’ him in finding a better ‘Helibase’ location.
But ‘others’ ended up describing BOTH Zettler and Sullivan as the ‘Air Support’ team that Sunday in Yarnell.
Example: When Eric Panebaker and his ‘Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness’ ( AFUE ) unit arrived in Yarnell at 1400 hours ( 2:00 PM ) that Sunday… Panebaker’s own ‘Unit Log’ mentions both Dan Sullivan and Brad Zettler… and Panebaker himself described them as the ‘Air Support for local team’… and the ones that he and his team ‘checked in’ with when they arrived in Yarnell to start ‘filming’ the Air Operations.
From AFUE team member Eric Panebaker’s own ‘Unit Log’…
——————————————————————————–
All times are in Mountain Time (no daylight savings UTC-7) On several of the videos there are brief descriptions immediately following the time. Below is a brief summary of my actions on the 6/20/2013. (many of the times are estimated)
~1030 Depart Flagstaff for the Yarnell Fire.
~1315 Drive through Prescott.
~1400 Arrive Yarnell ICP (Peoples Valley School). Talk to Dan Sullivin and Brad
Zettler (Air support for local team). Get radio clone and tell them our intentions.
The AFUE group plan was to observe and document retardant use from the road
and stay out of the way of the ground resources. Briefly talk to Paul Musser (OPS
on the local team) and advise him of our plan as well.
——————————————————————————–
Dan Sullivan was never ‘interviewed’ by anyone… and it still seems as if an effort was made to actually ‘hide’ his presence in Yarnell that day… exactly the way an effort was made to hide the presence of his fellow Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and Aaron Hulburd.
SIDENOTE: Eric Panebaker was never actually ‘interviewed’ by anyone, either.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> * Air attack communications (FOIAs) could answer this question correct?
FOIA’s were already made ( by ADOSH ) for ALL ‘Air Communications’, including any recordings that might have been made by the Arizona Dispatch Center.
ADOSH was told that the Eric Panebaker AFUE Air Study Group did NOT make a recording of the ‘Air To Ground’ radio traffic that day ( only the ‘Air To Air’ channel ), and ADOSH was told there were also no recordings made of the A2G traffic in Yarnell because the ‘recorder’ at Arizona Dispatch Center was ‘broken’ that day.
Both of those ‘statements’ could still turn out to be ‘horseshit’… but in the meantime… the ONLY ‘Air To Ground’ radio conversations that are in the public evidence record are the ones ‘accidentally’ captured by either Eric Panebaker and his crew… or in other ‘videos’ made that day ( such as the Aaron Hulburd videos ).
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> * If Willis was concerned about continued funding for the wildland
>> dept in Prescott wouldn’t he have therefore been committed to satisfying
>> Rex Maughn by accommodating retardant drops on his and other wealthy
>> ranchers property?
There is, currently, NO ‘evidence’ that Darrell Willis had ANY such ‘concerns’.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> * If so, could he have inadvertently sacrificed Yarnell homeowner properties
>> as well as possibly the lives of Granite Mountain to satisfy the wealthy ranchers ?
Again… there is absolutely NO ‘evidence’ he had any such concerns.
Willis was/is a ‘structural firefighter’… and he we HIRED for Yarnell to ‘protect structures’. That was his only concern and his only focus the night before ( Saturday ) and all day Sunday.
His ‘focus’ that Sunday was simply ( first ) trying to stop the fire from destroying the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’… and when that effort ‘failed’… his focus then switched to trying to stop the fire from crossing the ‘Model Creek Road’ and marching right into ‘Peeples Valley’.
But even Darrell Willis has ‘testified’ that if the wind had not shifted when it did, his attempts to stop the fire at the Model Creek Road would have also failed… and the fire WOULD have just marched right into Peeples Valley that day.
wwtktt said: Willis was/is a ‘structural firefighter’… and he we HIRED for Yarnell to ‘protect structures’. That was his only concern and his only focus the night before ( Saturday ) and all day Sunday.
if you want to learn more please I request you to go to CITY OF PRESCOTT city clerk and file FOIA for all and be specific data documents emails evaluations payroll applications…name it all…etc on Moser, Willis and Steinbrink to see some clarity on that area-
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 16, 2016 at 2:07 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> wwtktt said: Willis was/is a ‘structural firefighter’… and he we
>> HIRED for Yarnell to ‘protect structures’. That was his only concern
>> and his only focus the night before ( Saturday ) and all day Sunday.
>>
>> if you want to learn more please I request you to go to CITY OF
>> PRESCOTT city clerk and file FOIA for all and be specific
>> data documents emails evaluations payroll applications…name
>> it all…etc on Moser, Willis and Steinbrink to see some clarity on that area-
What ‘more’ is there to learn?
What ‘clarity’ are you referring to.
Darrell Willis turned the Yarnell assignment DOWN when he was first asked to fill an ‘SPGS’ order on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Willis said he turned it down because he wanted to attend church on Sunday.
It wasn’t until Arizona Forestry’s Russ Shumate called Willis directly and ASKED him to PLEASE come to Yarnell to do ‘Structure Protection Evaluation’ that Willis finally agreed to do so… and he arrived in Yarnell around 11:00 PM Saturday night.
In ALL of Willis’ ‘testimony’ to ADOSH ( TWO complete, separate interviews )… Willis describes his involvement with the Yarnell Hill fire ONLY in terms of ‘protecting structures’ ( as he was trained to do ).
Are you saying he had ‘other motivations’… and that there are ‘documents’ which establish these ‘other motivations’?
I am stating that if one reads the data you will gain clarity-
I cannot speak on what-
Due to recent behind the scenes actions and I am unsure of the propaganda of that area—I am down right scared to speak on some areas and I even hired on a private person to help me work that area out but there is data available that can help assess that entire weekend…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
November 16, 2016 at 2:54 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> there is data available that can help assess that entire weekend…
Of course there is.
But I simply thought you were suggesting there was some ‘reason’ for Darrell Willis to have been the one sent to Yarnell to do ‘Structure Protection Evaluation’ OTHER than what Darrell Willis himself has testified to.
That he didn’t even WANT to take the Yarnell assignment went first asked about it on Saturday night… and he, indeed, did ‘turn it down’ at first… but then Russ Shumate called Willis DIRECTLY and ASKED him to come to Yarnell to evaluate the structures… and that’s when Willis finally agreed to do it.
GO RUSS SHUMATE!!!
http://www.wildfireaz.com/2016/02/19/new-state-forestry-districts/
http://caminosfire.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/1a-AZSF.pdf
do you wwtktt even know any background on Shumate—we learned about him by looking at Prescott library reading InvestigativeMEDIA long ago where a passerbyer in library said- did you know Russ’s dad was the chief fire law enforcement officer of the forest around there– I said no just skimming the webpage for what’s new but the fella also said his dad was very stunned no media asked Russ’s dad about YHF being he had alot of wildfire investigations experience under his belt; like decades…his dad was a forest ranger of the Bradshaws and in 1980’s one fella had to make a full assay assessment of his mining claim but the times economically was hard time to do it…so with all that history and experience and knowing the terrain why didn’t he share his perceptions…”just saying”
as some still hang on to H O P E
as some see if it doesn’t work- try harder
but looking back at the losses- I lay at night and wonder the ones on the fires have you lost your self respect…does any have the dignity to do the right thing…why world do you place such a low value on the stuff we present of our toil?
Steps to regaining your dignity for the ones wondering “how”:
Remember who you were…
Isolate the event and forgive yourself…
give a full and sincere apology for whatever it was you did.
Take full responsibility for your actions.
Avoid adding a “but” or insisting anyone else take responsibility for their part.
Remember, this isn’t about them, it’s about you!
This is your opportunity to gain your dignity – don’t mess it up!…
As I think about the Yarnell hill fire tonight–I am wondering not why the men left the black but rather why more effort was not made to keep them alive?
It was over in a matter of minutes. It was some really long unbearable minutes for the crew, but it was minutes.
IF the VLAT had been in exactly the right position, at exactly the right time and had known exactly where the crew was and had their drop gone exactly right, that MIGHT have saved them.
But keep in mind, the VLAT would needed to have created a safe zone for them that was acres and acres big. According to the Woodsman’s calculations…up to 16.5 acres.
BUT…the VLAT is designed to drop 11,000 gallons of retardant in a long straight line…not a square. So I have my doubts even that would have saved them.
In other words, there was nothing anyone could do to save them from themselves. They were in too deep, and the fire was too big, too fast and too hot.
I am thinking about developments long before those last desperate moments—who was watching out for them as backburns developed in the Shrine area and who could have ensured that air attack came to the yarnell area when it was directed to—–who was looking out for them?
Joy,
Since you think they may kill you, the best thing you can do to save yourself is to write everything you know and post it in a public place, say…on this blog.
And then they wouldn’t have any reason to kill you because their secrets would already be out.
Except for revenge that is…but then we would know who killed you and that would make it easier for us to mourn you loss. So….
Well…as a matter of fact, Jon Shumate is an old friend of mine, but I haven’t talked to him since about 2007. Jon is a great guy.
Jon retired as the LE Patrol Captain for the USFS, Kaibab and Prescott National Forests but he retired before I did.
Although…FYI, I didn’t know Russ Shumate is Jon’s Shumate son? And Jon was a forester at one time.
Gary Olson says
NOVEMBER 17, 2016 AT 3:01 AM
Well…as a matter of fact, Jon Shumate is an old friend of mine, but I haven’t talked to him since about 2007. Jon is a great guy.
MY REPLY:
So if he is an old friend—then how come you did not know he had a son…was it THAT long ago…showing someone’s age here is risky, eh 🙂 Yes I only known Russ was his son because a total stranger walked by me at a Prescott library and shared so I fact checked so yes…your old pal’s son was on the YHF
Was he one of the fellows burning miner’s cabins in the 50’s. I remember that as a kid forest rangers were watching until miners went to town then they would run up and light a match to their place.
Recently there at Dolan Springs, one man, a miner–I bought his black 4×4 a little after Joy and I met. Well his family has owned a gold mine there on the desert behind the little bar about 40 miles south of LV on the way to Kingman. They had it in the family for some 80 years, and he inherited it. So the old cabins there were bulldozed by BLM without him knowing and they told him they did not need to tell him since they had now declared that desert land as federal park land.
I doubt it (eye roll). And I know you are a real…old tyme kind of guy Sonny and you were probably born at least 200 too late to be really happy…just like the Woodsman.
BUT you said…”forest rangers were watching until miners went to town then they would run up and light a match to their place.”
The other choice would have been to wait until the miners went to sleep and burn the cabins down with them inside them.
Although as far as my experience goes, structures that have been erected illegally on federal land are removed only after years of ignored notifications and warnings, deliberately missed court dates, disappearing miners and repeated attempts to negotiate their orderly removal but all crazy miners want to hear is that their shacks and associated junk and trash can stay on federal land as long as they want them to.
I have also only seen it done with a Court Order signed by a federal judge authorizing the removal of the squatters and their…homes? in addition to their outbuildings, junk vehicles, piles of garbage and trash, dangerous chemicals, old dynamite, broken down junk heavy equipment, more junk vehicles and more mountains of garbage, trash and raw sewage …from federal land that is there without authorization.
It is called “squatting” Sonny. And if anyone could do it at anytime…I know some really nice places on federal land I would like to go build myself a shack and live out the rest of my days.
But if the federal government let me do that, they would let me cheat everyone else who owns that property and that leads to some real health and safety issues…like untreated raw sewage going into streams and the water table in addition to the wide range of chemicals those crazy miners (no offense) truck out to those sites by the barrel to leach the ore they dig out of the ground and for everything else under the sun and then they leave all of their mountains of junk, broken down equipment and vehicles, garbage, old dynamite and leaking barrels of highly toxic chemicals on federal land when they move on to the next piece of federal land they want to destroy in the pursuit of riches they will never find, because most of them aren’t even really looking for mineral riches…they just set up a bunch of junk and dig some exploratory holes while they squat there and grow dope or cook meth.
Been there…seen that…dealt with that The only thing that makes that whole scenario better? Is when that crazy miner IS home…armed to the teeth and wants to kill the public servant who has come to evict him in the name of the American People (because that is what they want, what they are paying their taxes for because they own that land, not the crazy miner) before he is in turn killed.
Heavy sigh.
Oh…and one more thing. The acres and acres and acres of rusty worthless broken down heavy equipment, old junk cars, leaking drums of highly toxic chemicals and hazardous waste, mountains of garbage and miscellaneous junk, old dynamite, dozens of old appliances, and everything you can think of, or can be hauled out to these sites because the crazy miner had a head start of several years before he was even found to be on federal land, in addition to several more years while the crazy miner gets due process in court …do you know who gets to ultimately pay to clean it all up?
That’s right…YOU PEOPLE do, because the crazy miner is either dead, or gone to parts unknown and even if he could be found…he doesn’t have a pot to piss in because he had been making really, really, really BAD decisions his entire chaotic and otherwise worthless life.
OK…just one more thing…I hope. Do you want to know what the irony is…most of the crazy miners get away with everything described above because the principle law that governs their activity…is called the 1872 Mining Law.
Do you know why it is called the 1872 Mining Law? That’s right…it was enacted in eighteen seventy two (1872). Now how may problems do you think there are with a law governing mining activity on federal land that was enacted…not in the last century…but in the one BEFORE that!
Why isn’t it changed (well, it has been a little bit)? Because of all of the VERY, VERY, VERY powerful mining special interest groups and the mining industry lobbyists.
And bye the way…almost ALL big mining companies destroying federal land for fractions of pennies on the dollar…are CANADIAN owned (although I do love the Canadian people…just not their mining companies),
So…just so we are clear. When most people say they are a “miner” (excluding those who toil for little pay in very dangerous jobs for the benefit of all of us because guess what? If it isn’t grown…it’s mined.) what they are really saying is that they are the ultimate “end of the roaders.”
Men who either can’t, or refuse to be productive citizens members of our society and what they really are…all too often ex cons, felons, child molesters, white supremacists or militia members, producers of illegal drugs, free loaders with severe mental problems who are usually very unstable and potentially very violent men who are always armed and paranoid about claim jumpers and the feds coming to get them.
You go first…I’ll bring up the rear to make sure everything goes okay.
And don’t get me started talking about my bad experiences with “miners”, because I just can’t stop myself.
OK…now it’s quiz time.
1. What do you think you are walking into when you go out to follow up on a report of unusual activity at an illegal mining claim and unauthorized occupancy and you see 20 to 30 vehicles parked out there…most with Idaho license plates?
Whoops…forgot the next question.
2. What steps or actions should you take next after seeing those vehicles? Why?
Note: There are only about 200 law enforcement officials who work for the BLM nationwide and that includes all uniformed officers and special agents (who only number about 50). And that number includes everyone at the Washington D.C. and State Offices. And nobody else (state police, sheriffs offices, other federal agencies) gives a **** what happens on BLM land…except for the BLM.
And I will do the math for you…that is one (1) BLM law enforcement official for every one (1) million acres of Public Lands managed by the BLM.
And when President Trump and the mining, timber, utility and oil and natural gas companies get done…there will be a lot fewer BLM law enforcement officials out there trying to protect YOUR public lands.
I have been there and I have the T-shirts.
1.. During ALL Republican Administrations, funding to properly manage YOUR natural resources goes way, way, way, DOWN.
2. During ALL Democratic Administrations, funding to properly manage YOUR natural resources goes back UP…a little bit.
Which is why I spent so much of my time deliberately serving as a soldier in the disastrous and failed War on Drugs.
There was so much ******* money associated with that Epic Failure…we couldn’t spend it fast enough to empty the barrels (barrels of money, not pot of money) of money until they were filled up again for the next fiscal year.
You think I’m kidding?
The first time I was the ASAC for BLM Arizona, there were two ASAC’s. ASAC- Resource Investigations and ASAC- Drug Investigations
The ASAC – Resource Investigations budget for 15 million acres of BLM land in Arizona was less than $500,000.
The budget for ASAC – Drug Investigations (me) was more than $1,500,000 (1.5 million). But…it could only be spent on drug investigations, personnel, equipment, and operations which primarily occurred on the border with Mexico which is a relatively small amount of land..
FYI…the second time I was BLM ASAC Arizona, there was just one ASAC.
And yes…thank you….I did have a wild ride.
OK…just one more. The land that old squatter “inherited” from his family? They didn’t just declare that desert land as federal park land so they could go mess with him. That land had been federal park land, officially called Public Lands managed by the BLM ever since we took it from Mexico by force of arms.
The truth is…the BLM manages so much land there are many places you can go out and build a house, live there for your entire life, pass it on to your kids before the BLM ever finds out you are out there.
And when they do…they are just as likely to give you free and clear title to that land as kick you off it because I have seen that done more often than I have seen people kicked off it…assuming they have really been there that long undetected and or allowed to remain..
Where is it the biggest problem? On Public Lands that are contiguous to the Navajo Reservation because there are too many Navajos and sheep for the amount of reservation they control…even though they control a huge amount.
And because so many Navajos were displaced by the federal government after they were made to move from Hopi Reservation that they had taken and illegally occupied from the Hopi a really long time ago. It’s complicated.
The place where it is the second biggest problem…New Mexico, where Spanish people have been living since the King of Spain was handing out land grants from Madrid a few hundred years ago that now compete with federal land title.
And the place where it MAY be the biggest problem…Alaska, because the BLM has so much land up there they have never even seen most of it.
And probably the land that old miner;s family had been illegally occupying for 80 years was not considered for private title is because his family probably never even “lived” there.
It was probably just a “man camp” was a shack and some outbuilding plus all of the other trash and junk I describe above…and had it been a valid mining claim that was really producing ore…guess what?
That crazy old miner would have been allowed to keep all of his junk and trash out there until hell freezes over.
But it wasn’t a valid mining claim that produced any gold ore, it was an 80 year old case of land fraud that finally caught up with him, but his parents got away with it for 80 years before the BLM figured out what was up, which is NOT unusual.
That crazy old miner still lives in Dolan Springs, and he files suit against Blm. Joe was his name and he is a black jack dealer on the side driving out of Vegas to Dolan Springs daily. Of course, I could have told him it is useless fighting the govenment. The only people with mining interests that have any clout are like your big industrial players–some of whom I worked for as a contract miner–including Standard Oil of Ohio, Union Carbide, and Kerr McGhee–same section 30 where your Dad was killed. Their billions grease the political palms and they have carte blanch to rip mountains apart, spread toxins to the fair winds from Texas to California and supply the system with huge open pit gouges in the earth filled with their cranes, huge dozers, trucks and methods and destructions that make a small miner’s efforts and junk cars look like ants against elephants.
So, yes there are squatters that used the mining law to appropriate land with not intention to mine or to do what was the mining law was made for. Joe however was one of the legitamate miners–his holdings are gold mines and I have been to the property and know his mining claims are valid–have value. Once the BLM squeezes him out or he dies off you can bet one of the biggie like Phelps Dodge or Homestake will come in and open up his small diggings to provide this country with gold.
Joe thinks he can fight BLM. His single lawyer against the juggernaut of BlM lawyers will wear him down until he is dead. I know that, Gary knows that and likely Gary would find some way to arrest that man for trespassing on desert land. After all he needs a twenty dollar pass to just walk across BLM these days, at least in Arizona and I know Joe is like me and my age–that is bull shit.
My Dad was one of those small miners. Back during WW2 he provided several flasks of mercury that the war effort needed badly==at that time mercury was used in the primers that set off the powder that sent bullets through the declared enemy–Japs and Germans. Of course his flasks were not many and he left that mine to his partner after a final sale to the government. Dad said the other guy was just too damn lazy and he was having to do most of the mining and retorting of the ore so rather than push the guy he just signed the mining claims over and took his share and left.
Before that in Nevada, Dad had worked in a tungsten mine near Fallon, NV for a small mine owner, Tony Romano. Again the tungsten is essential to hardening steel and was badly needed for war time.
The tungsten mine I worked in at Tempaiute NV in 79 belonged to a small miner. He had found it by panning the dirt and seeing the heavy white particles determined them to be schelite the main oxide ore that tungsten is extracted from. I lived in one of his shacks and bought one of his junk pickups while mining for Union Carbide in the mine they had purchased from him. He had lived on that claim for years before Union Carbide came in. In fact, Joy went there with me and all the mill, junk by the tons, and stuff are left there==the huge mill buildings are abandoned now–the price of tungsten down so shut down and we Joy commented this would be great for a spooky movie scene. On the walls some one had painted in red with a dagger above the words murder.
That place is about 7 miles SE of Rachael (formerly Tempaiute) and I would dare any BLM man to go there and fuck with the Urion Carbide holdings or any of their men that now and again go there to guard the place. I will likely some day open up again when tungsten prices are up.
Yet that resource would not be there had it not been for that old miner prospector digging a rat hole into a vein he discovered.
True it is fellows on their dirt bikes and quads like to cruise and hate to see some old fucker out there busting ass uncovering a vein or having a dream of striking it rich. It destroys their view of things==but they love to see the great open pits and huge mining operations tearing up the land. And is it that bad, since just about every item of this modern society depends upon the mining industry from the automobile to the copper pipes in your sink to that space craft and satellite circling so this computer, also dependent upon the miner can operate and the people of this world can enjoy these things.
Those old crappy miners were and still are the ones that find these minerals. Few finds were ever made by geologists. I will concede that the Ambrosia lake deposits of uranium were discovered in some degree by a geologist–Charlie Steen in fact. He got five million and spent it in five years==there is a book on his escapades and life but he was much like the simple miner in his ways and the Navajo prospector who found carnotite on Indian lands.
Joe indeed never tackled a mine like my Dad with hand steel and dynamite. Dad did not have 24 old cars–only a truck and tents but he was one of those men that had a dream and was willing to sacrifice for it. My sisters and mom ended up hating him for his dream since they too had to sacrifice. But hell I appreciated the life and appreciate all those old miner prospectors, many still out there. Fuck if they need 27 trucks while they mine so be it. That scrap iron is worth money and the older it is the more it is worth. Maybe we can mine their scrap after they leave it.
Again, though, Gary is right to the degree that when people want to use the mining law to own land or squat then it is a dubious affair and I have seen that as well. There is however a hell of a lot of desert land that a rat has a hard time living on. Maybe the homestead law and squatters rights need to be brought back into activity like it was recently in Alaska. Those boys in Alaska enjoying the pioneer way==Hell I am all for it. If you get disturbed seeing that kind of person then stay in your cookie cutter home and clean shaven===I am.
It is the miner, the rancher and the pioneer that made this country great. There are few indeed that would not go to war to defend this country. And perhaps I arrived 200 years too late since I believe in the freedoms that you see enjoyed by only a few wilderness survivor types. I like this rock cabin though and appreciate that there are still a few out there in the wilds. I won’t be the one to challenge that lifestyle, nor even the old miner if he has a legitimate mineral vein, working it and even if he has a dozen old cars and trash around. See, what is ugly to me might be beauty to him. I won’t force my life style upon him and he damn sure best not try to force his upon mine.
This world is already a police state and Trump will likely make it worse. He will likely side with the big interests and perhaps he will do what just about every federal man wants==to make all people cluster into rat dens in the city. Maybe that is the way to go for most since it seems to be the norm. Shit even my daughter and sons love the rat race in Phoenix while i even dread the small town life I live when ass hole neighbors can turn me in for chickens or dogs that have to have a Vet give rabie shots–something I have always done myself. But now it is a racket for the county==people get a 900 dollar fine if they do it themselves and do not have a dog tag. Shit the dog is a free thing and the only dog tag I want was the one I had to hang around my own neck when in the Army.\\\
So tonight on Channel nine, a report on firemen and the many maladies they are suffering from their breathing chemicals and there was a long list from cancer on. I believe that and maybe by now Gary believes it.
Sorry there Gary, but being a hero has its costs. I am not a hero and still got the aftermath of the local drops–but I can imagine a wild land fire fighter getting a lot of that exposure or a structure fighter that breaths all the toxins from those type fires.
It is only when these fire fighters need to enjoy their later years these maladies start appearing. But once admitted to and recognized, then something to prevent these problems can be done. Of course the billions made from retardants, like the billions from uranium mining made will hinder the truth.
Oh, the gold mines Joe have are valid, I have been there and it is definitely good ore. It did produce at times but unlike Union Carbide, Joe has a small operation. Anyone that can do a small mine near Dolan Springs, I admire. One thing the Irish Gods put me though purgatory living there 8 years before I met Joy. If you are working a rat hole around there then I admire your stamina. And I never met any old miner that was not a bit crazy–but likely more sane than most politicians and generally a hell of a lot more honest.
I never saw any old trash around but I did see the BLM had bulldozed his cabins down into a pile of boards. I suppose the reason they did not burn them was because they were afraid of a desert wild fire which in that area could never happen==even the vegetation has hell to live there. Someone had attempted to steal his small bulldozer and his air compressor. I know he had a small crusher. Well so it goes.
And what about the rat hole I worked in out of Pine Valley. That guy had me using a stoper he got from the Navy surplus with no water needles. They came that way and good lord Atlas Copco shit. They weighed as much as I do and you could drill like hell on driving a raise but I looked like a coal miner after a day with them and you had to keep your head near the air out let to breath. But the big companies were not much better–being a bit crazy helps to being a good miner. See the Irish gods fucked with our DNA and some of us inherited those traits that make a good miner. The rest of you enjoy the benefits of our efforts.
My sincerest apologies…I stand corrected.
Charlie says
NOVEMBER 18, 2016 AT 7:32 PMAfter all he needs a twenty dollar pass to just walk across BLM these days
MY REPLY- not true. BLM is not a $20 pass
state land is private and they charge $15 per individual or a family of 2 is $20
I knew that, but I didn’t want to get in any deeper with Sonny.
Followup…
During this same 3:50 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe… OPS1 Todd Abel remained physically ‘on scene’ in the Miner’s Camp Road area supervising some ‘burnouts’ that were meant to try and protect just one or two ( already evacuated ) residences out there.
That’s where OPS1 Todd Abel was from the time Rory Collins first told Thomas French to switch the ‘focus’ of ‘Air Support’ to the Yarnell side of the fire, at exactly 3:50 PM… and when the Granite Mountain emergency radio traffic first hit the Air-To-Ground channel 49 minutes later… at 4:39 PM.
In his ADOSH interview… Todd Abel said that he DID have some ‘communications’ with ‘Air Attack’ ( and specifically, John Burfiend ) during this timeframe… but OPS1 Abel NEVER says it was to request that they remain on the NORTH end of the fire and/or keep dropping retardant in either his area ( the Miner’s Camp Road area ) or where Darrell Willis was working ( the Model Creek Road area ).
On the contrary… OPS1 Abel says his ‘communications’ with ‘Bravo 33’ ( and John Burfiend ) in this timeframe were specifically about Bravo 33 going DOWN to the SOUTH SIDE of the fire to check on the situation AND to check on Granite Mountain.
OPS1 Abel told ADOSH that they ( Bravo 33 ) actually DID that ( fly down to the south side of the fire and check on Granite Mountain )… but this testimony from Abel has always been the exact OPPOSITE of what Thomas French and John Burfiend testified to.
French and Burfiend testified that it was THEY who ‘expressed concern’ about Granite Mountain ( over the radio ) to OPS1 Todd Abel… but that it was Todd Abel himself who told THEM that it was NOT NECESSARY to go down there to check on them. French and Burfiend testified they had simply ‘heard’ about a ‘crew’ headed for a ‘safety zone’ of some kind down there on the south side… but OPS1 Todd Abel then ‘assured’ them that it was just ‘Granite Mountain’… and that they were in the ‘safe black’… and so there was no need at all for French and Burfiend to fly down there to check on them.
So ( according to French and Burfiend )… they didn’t ( fly down to check on them ).
The testimony from French and Burfiend is more likely the TRUTH… since there is an ‘Air-To-Air’ channel radio capture in the 4:30 PM timeframe where we HEAR Thomas French telling another pilot on the SOUTH end of the fire that (quote) “this is my FIRST time DOWN here”.
If ‘Bravo 33’ had actually done what Todd Abel told ADOSH they did ( fly down to check on Granite Mountain )… then ‘Bravo 33’ pilot Thomas French would NOT have been saying “This is my FIRST time DOWN here” at 4:30 PM.
From Todd Abel’s one-and-only ADOSH interview, on August 22, 2013…
Q1 = Dave Larsen, WFA / ADOSH Investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Field OPS1 Todd Abel
—————————————————————————–
1776 A: And our dozer line are – are compromised – they’re gonna be compromised. I
1777 said okay, I copy. I said are you guys in a safe place? He said affirmative,
1778 we’re in the black. I said copy that, just – once again everybody’s in a good
1779 spot? Yes we’re all in a good spot, we’re in the black. I said copy that.
1780
1781 Q1: Okay.
1782
1783 A: I then jump on the radio, uh, on air ground with Bravo 33 and, uh, asked John
1784 Burfiend was – the Bravo 33, I said hey, when you get a chance, I need you to
1785 run down to the south end. He’s up here dropping SEATs to keep it out of
1786 these structures.
1787
1788 Q1: Right.
1789
Page 41
A: He’s kind of 1790 trying to tie stuff in to keep it out of those structures. And I said
1791 I need you to run down, uh, south and check on Granite – Division Alpha and
1792 Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge. He said copy that. He said I got – he goes
1793 what’s going on? I go now the winds are getting squirrely down there, they’re
1794 in the black, everybody’s good. He said okay I got two more SEATs to drop
1795 and I’ll buzz down there.
1796
1797 Q1: Okay.
1798
1799 A: So he dropped the other two SEATs. So you know you’re talking – I don’t
1800 know – you got 3:45 to 4 o’clock was probably wind change. Me and Eric
1801 having the conversation was probably right in that same timeframe. Yeah, I’d
1802 say that’s probably pretty close.
1803
1804 Q1: Okay.
1805
1806 A: So and then John made a run down there, everybody looked good, they were
1807 in the black, no, you know ev- no issues, no nothing. So ev-everybody was
1808 good. I was just trying to make – I’m just trying to paint that picture on the
1809 timeframes for you.
1810
1811 Q1: Thank you.
—————————————————————————–
Todd Abel:
Isnt he the one who told Granite Mountain to hunker and be safe yet discouraged air attack from checking on them when they (AA) heard that a team may be in trouble?
What did Todd Abel do to ensure the safety of Granite Mountain ?
The night spent at the deployment site:
I am concerned that items disappeared and the scene was altered to change perceptions of what happened to Granite Mountain prior to investigators taking command of the site.
I’m pretty sure you are right. Please see my rant on YCSO.
Where is this YCSO rant?
I would like to read it.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on November 16, 2016 at 3:01 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> The night spent at the deployment site:
>>
>> I am concerned that items disappeared and the scene was
>> altered to change perceptions of what happened to Granite
>> Mountain prior to investigators taking command of the site.
It remains very possible that ‘items disappeared’ from the deployment site before any investigator arrived… such as the Oregon 450 Handheld GPS Unit that was known to have been attached to Robert Caldwell’s pack strap… and ( perhaps ) the other 4 or 5 GPS handheld units that Brendan McDonough told ADOSH Granite Mountain usually had ‘in the field’…
However.. I’m curious what you have in mind with regards to the “scene being altered to change perceptions”?
Altered HOW… and to change WHICH ‘perceptions’?
Keep in mind that the signed testimony from the DPS officers who first located the deployment site from DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 all testified that even when they FIRST saw the ‘shelters’… they all appeared to be ‘together’ in the same configuration that would eventually be shown in the post-fire investigation photographs.
No shelters were found ‘away’ from that main body… nor is there any evidence that any of the bodies was ‘moved’ before the investigators arrived.
In other words… if you were suggesting that some of the bodies *might* have been MOVED before the police detectives arrived the next morning in order to make it ‘look’ more like they had all ‘deployed together’ ( if they did NOT )…
…there really is no ‘evidence’ to support that.
The DPS officers in the helicopter DID all ‘testify’ that their first observations ( from the air ) of the ‘deployment site’ indicated that all the shelters WERE ‘in a tight group’ down there on the floor blind-box-canyon.
One of the officers ( Charles Main ) even testified that he only observed what he thought were THREE discernible ‘bodies’ down there amidst the group of shelters.
If that observation was correct… then it could mean that more of the men HAD gotten all the way into their shelters and the additional ‘de-sheltered’ bodies documented in the SAIR *could* have simply been the result of the intense ‘rotor wash’ that hit that deployment site when DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 actually made TWO attempts to LAND right there near the deployed shelters.
Helicopter Ranger 58 ‘aborted’ BOTH of those right-near-the-shelters landing attempts that day due to concerns about all the ASH that their rotor-wash was kicking up damaging the engines.
The Helicopter ‘backed off’ after those two attempted ‘landings’ and opted for a ‘safer’ landing site some 600 yards east, in a clearing known as the ‘cattle pond area’ just north of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
DPS Officer/Paramedic Eric Tarr exited the helicopter at THAT location, and then hiked the 600 yards west to the deployment site itself.
But the rotor wash from those two close landing attempts *COULD* have actually blown the shelters off some of the bodies.
It is also documented that Officer Eric Tarr himself had to ‘roll over’ some of the bodies when he reached the deployment site in the performance of his ‘duty’ to ascertain if anyone was still ‘alive’ at that site. He took the time in his Unit Log to note, however, that whatever ‘rolling over’ he had to do was done ‘carefully’… and he also paid attention to returning the bodies to their original positions when he was done exercising his “duties” that day.
But other than these things… there is no other ‘evidence’ that the actual ‘bodies’ and/or the ‘shelters’ were significantly ‘disturbed’ before the police detectives arrived the following morning.
Was there something else you had in mind when you suggested that the scene *might* have been “altered to change perceptions”?
My main concern with the deployment site is that evidence was removed and or changes made to shift evidence of blame from fire officials that was present at the scene—-for example-radio and other communication indicating orders sent to Granite Mountain that are not in evidence.
Also that the scene was staged to reflect positively on upper level fire officials.
WTKTT states that Willis requested air support for burn-outs he was doing in Model Creek Rd. area during the 3:50-4:30 pm time frame that AA was directed to go to Yarnell.
How was this air support and retardant drops granted and under whose authorization ?
I am bringing this to the top so it doesn’t get lost in all of the chaff down below because I think this is the first really relevant discussion we have had for some time on this thread. I slept on it overnight and I have something to add and I found it very interesting that Diane used the same word that was in my head when I woke up to describe this entire concept, and that word is…UNTHINKABLE.
Joy asked me some time back if I was ever considered by anyone to be a fire god and I said no…not even close. BUT…I did rise to the level of being a chief priest to the fire gods and one of their executive officers. In that capacity I fought fire many times from SWCC in Albuquerque, but I also went on campaign fires and/or campaign fire complexes (many fires in a geographical area) from my home fire operations command center in Santa Fe to many places which included some for extended periods of time (30 days or more) in several locations in Alaska, in addition to Ogden Utah, Redding California, Asheville North Carolina, Mena Arkansas, Williams Arizona, Ruidoso New Mexico, Atlanta Georgia and maybe some I can’t remember right now in my relatively short time as a fire operations center coordinator (about 4 years).
And as a result of those experiences, in addition to those on the fire line as a hotshot and my time as an Assistant District Fire Management Officer (2 years) it would have been unthinkable that I would game the system to benefit anyone person, or group of persons, over another, and it would have been unimaginable to me that anyone else would do it as well. That being said, my experiences were all limited to fighting fire (with a telephone, computer, and radio console) for the federal government and the New Mexico State Forestry Division.
In other words…I never manipulated the system, never saw anyone else manipulate the system, never heard of anyone manipulating the system, never thought about manipulating the system, nor believed it was possible to manipulate the system to benefit one person, or group of persons over another..
Without getting all mushy on you, one reason I loved fighting fire so much and look back on it with so much fondness is because that world was pure. It was truly man (and some women) against wildfire, one on one, mano y mano against Mother Nature in mortal combat…and may the best force win.
That being said…I never worked with any snakes in the grass like that low down dirty bush wacker Darrell Willis or his ilk on highly politicized fires (or any other kind of fire) like the Yarnell Hill Fire. And now…knowing what I know now about how Arizona State Forestry, Arizonaistan in general, the City of Prescott, Yavapai County, and low down dirty scoundrels like Rex Maughn and his bought and paid for political stooges like Steve Pierce and Karen Fann operate…do I think it is possible or even likely for it to have occurred on the Yarnell Hill Fire? Ya…sure….you damn betcha.
Diane Lomas says
NOVEMBER 16, 2016 AT 7:59 AM
I believe that Darrel Willis was the last official on the ground directing retardant drops on the Peeples Valley when air attack was directed to go to Yarnell but didn’t.
* Could Willis or Dan Sullivan have been the ones continuing to direct drops from the ground during the 45 minute critical timeframe?
* Air attack communications (FOIAs) could answer this question correct?
*If Willis was concerned about continued funding for the wildland dept in Prescott wouldn’t he have therefore been committed to satisfying RexMaughn by accommodating retardant drops on his and other wealthy ranchers property?
*If so, could he have inadvertently sacrificed Yarnell homeowner properties as well as possibly the lives of Granite Mountain to satisfy the wealthy ranchers ?
Diane Lomas says
NOVEMBER 16, 2016 AT 8:27 AM
Gary,
Your statements about the wealthy landowners in the Peeples Valley area could be very relevant—but then, I assume that you already knew that and I am just trying to catch up.
Going up against that wealthy faction is extremely difficult and dangerous to careers in that area. In addition many of those in charge of the fire must be well respected individuals so to call into question the motives (preference for the wealthy landowners) over doing what is right (defend the less wealthy and vulnerable) must be almost unthinkable.
Oh…and one more thing Diane. You asked this question some time back, and that is, “Why weren’t there any fire gods on the Yarnell Hill Fire?” And that answer is very simple and very sad at the same time, and that is because all of those fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire in command positions were contract mercenaries.
And as we all know…mercs don’t fight for honor, reputation, God or country. Mercs fight only for gold, except to the extent of their honor and reputations as mercs, which is similar to the honor and reputation among thieves.
The Yarnell Hill Fire Team did not fight the Yarenll Hill Fire for their careers; their careers were over…their careers were in their rear view mirrors with their benefits locked in. Kinda of like I do, which is why I can afford to a merc for this thread…except for the gold part.
So…don’t judge how the Yarnell Hill Fire Team acted in accordance with the values and principles that guide professional career wildland firefighters. Because those men weren’t…they were mercs who only cared about pleasing their current employer by mercenary standards. And their employer was the Arizona Division of Forestry.
PRETTY GOOD STUFF GARY ABOVE THERE-
GARY SAID: Joy asked me some time back if I was ever considered by anyone to be a fire god and I said no…not even close.
MY REPLY: of all the fire Gods who are your top ones that number one were “most memorable but not in any order or necessary you liked them but most memorable” or who were the top ones you to this day still hold highest regards to—I have heard many firefighters as it is a question in my interviews- and it seems there is a common denominator except a few who I then learn as I run check are the non-programmable “fire gods” …you Gary are a fire God to some like it or not…for you to come to IM with Full Name like Bob Powers and speak with the language you do and the way Bob has…that is what needs to happen not like Donut does…do you know his friend told me he goes to these meetings but he casually sits back amongst peers with a whisper tease on the book from others and I hope I am able to go to one of these meetings to share with Sonny about our events that has traumatized us similar yet different and maybe others can realize Donut was in more danger that day than he really expresses aloud…
Sonny speaks about that fire restriction
look at image:
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/howtodrawfire-111214160055-phpapp01/95/teaching-firefighters-how-to-draw-fire-3-728.jpg?cb=1323879523
how is it if a campfire did that in 2013 there is criminal charges but padding books and time sheets and how vehicles are used and accelerating a fire that was about out is okay and no accountability (especially when lives lost and homes too) and core the blame to weather change…most the world will buy it and we will get diversions to come across the hikers path and others who try to seek answers—
it is always great to go back in time:
http: // wildfiretoday. co m/2013/11/05/archive-photo-southern-california-firefighters-40-years-ago/
and see who was who back then and where they are now …and it is even much better when the “back whens” folks come on here and share so thank you dearly Gary- aka BIG G
MEN vs. WOMEN
FE= Iron MALE= Man..in other words we are “iron man”
I know some think I am not simple because I do not do the programmable traditional ways to life..yet I’m the gal who gots conebread in de oven…Sonny has beans a cookin’ in de pot…nothing fancy…but the world is welcome to what we gots! Sonny being an old miner cowboy logger who has lived and breathed freedom and I…well I gots a very impotant career as a domestic engineer to many lives and I feels Noah did us wrong when I am in Sonny’s space not my own and Noah shoulda been wise to have swatted dem two flies on the ark—and if Sonny’s house ain’t to ones liking—da computer or tv broke or heart attack number 7 came…Skinny Sonny can share meals with me yet a minute on my lips- be forrrrrreeeevvveeerrrr on de hips—no way around it for me…
I have stuff to do but I am sharing to people I am beginning to see how the FOIA really works when it comes to be a media person—God Bless—not so easy as people think to be a reporter or journalist when they play a game…recently I was lied to in a meeting and I could call out that person in a legal way on the matter…yet my focus is to get things into place…thank you YCSO for they have finally fulfilled my FOIA but I have not even began to get into that—most is boxed up and away from my home and Sonny’s—
I know I am on the right track when I have the kind of back channels we are seeing…thanks to up Above too-
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/5f/9f/cc/5f9fcc6035848f29865f58e317124fcd.jpg
oops wrong link:
try again
http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/funny-quotes-3.jpg
Gary will get this one:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/45/c0/8e/45c08e200b990ea5244d7dc19790d222.jpg
LOL
These men were my fire gods,
Bill Buck, Type I Incident Commander (National), Coconino NF, Fire Management Officer
Steve Servis, Incident Commander, FMO Gila National Forest
Al Bell, R-3 Regional Fire Operations Center Coordinator (SWCC,ABQ NM)
Jimmie Hickman, R-3 Regional Director of Aviation and Fire Management
Hub Harris, Former Long Valley Ranger District FMO and the man who made me into a hotshot, retired as the R-4 Regional Fire Operations Center Coordinator (Ogden, UT).
And my mentors; Richard Allred, Long Valley FMO, Coconino NF, Orlando Romero, Espanola Ranger District, Santa Fe NF, Ron Melcher, Walnut Creek Ranger District FMO Prescott NF, Ray Page, Santa Fe NF Forest FMO, Type I Air Attack. and Les Buchanan, Santa Fe Forest AFMO, Type I Fire Behavior Analyst in addition to my two hotshot crew bosses, Amos Coochyama and Jeff Denepont.
All of these men were legends, fire gods and great wildland firefighters and it was an honor to work for all of them I never had a bad supervisor during my 14 years with the USFS.
Mr. Gilligan:
time and time again I am up against a man who believes when having a Heineken or Guiness or Corona with lime that it is “ok” to place me at the forefront and express my “private” life for the world…I am not angry and JD cannot be the gate keeper to know when and when not to delete his comments of a blogger having his fun because that is Sonny…many millions in this world consume some kind of “fun” and that is his HOWEVER my fit to describe IS this…HOW COME those who already received monies or HAVE monies do not do the right thing by the 19 and all fallen and ALL affected…why does it take a simple lady from a ghost town to keep at it when I dedicate my life to 19 people and I am not working and I do not mean the 19 men…I am living a very unbalanced schedule…very…the juggling act has me at my end of how can I be there for any or all when I have to attend…I help locals as well as try to be there for Sonny but quick to judge or share my world to you all…I care for Sonny and that is facts…no buts or yet or anything..it is what it is…I am just so drained that I am not the everready bunny up to hang out the legion and speak to a man Sonny once gave me crap about so I did right last night by staying outside and painted that dog house for a newly married couple who have to work out the word “compromise” in their independent lives…something Sonny seems to struggle with and probably why he and I clash alot…but what I do not get is all these interviews and data I have gotten and looking at FOIAs directories into WHO is making the requests…that is what I dont get…how limited people do not give a shit really…I can understand loved ones and their grief but they have to have people around them that could help and I am not so sure “E” is the right person who seems to want to jam it down peoples throat not just my throat that THEIR THEORY is the only possible one when I am the eyewitness as well has gathered ALOT over time…not in fantasy land time but REAL TIME…that’s all I got…I am not going to restrict Sonny from typing his way but do not think we feel the same on topics…ok…we are 2 individuals who have a HEART for the TRUTH and I would be on the same level of openness as Sonny however I have alot more time and money invested and alot more crucial private data that it is hard to put out unless I can with all purity bring the source and documents along with it and I can’t
I also do not have the time or energy to fact check as I use to do…with any comments not just his…and I only knew he wrote on me by the many back channeling…
OK, well said Joy. You have been the best Desert Walker friend and partner for many years now. I think we have gained immensely from your and my travels together. Pioneering Arizona was never an easy task–cave living, desert camping and cabin living at altitudes above 9000 ft all a part of these travels.
But the most taxing of all has been this Yarnell ordeal and watching not only the 19 fall but scores of locals, mostly elderly fall to the after effects of the enormous orange retardant drops. Of course many will say that can not be, this retardant is deemed by those officials we hand our trust over. To many of these same officials use every means to deter, redact and avoid giving out FOIA’s to hide the actual facts of how things are being handled for the public.
When I talked to Howard Bockman last night I could see his health has been going downhill. He is a retire police officer and tells me he is having much respiratory problems since the fire. Of course once oxygen supply to the organs is compromised then the whole body suffers. He indeed is not looking well–but something we have seen in nearly all the elderly here in Yarnell. Bockman and I are the same age–he is only a few months older and these days 72 is really not an old age until you breath enough of the fumes from the retardant dumps.
If you think the ammonia gasses are not dangerous–Phoenix this past week had an evacuation in a proximate area to an ammonia leak. That stuff can only scar lung tissue–lung cells once destroyed by the ammonia gas (mixed with other chemicals) off retardant are never regenerated. Certainly smokers that have only one lung left continue for years to survive–In fact Joy’s father was just such a person and continued to smoke five packs a day years after loosing a lung and right up until his death in his late 60’s. But most of us cherish our lungs and the good health that goes with clear lungs.
I have wondered why smoking has anything to do with heart disease. Is it because the continuous smoke in the lungs diminishes the oxygen level of the blood so the heart does not get the needed oxygen? I would think so and I can remember following George Latham, a miner boss up a ladder and I thought we would never get to my working place and off that ladder at the time since George, being a long time smoker, had to stop at every rung above me to catch his breath. He was indeed a good miner before his lungs got compromised by smoking. Well add the dust and smoke of underground mining and it is a slow killer. But I am seeing this retardant as a fast killer when it comes to the elderly.
I have written the EPA, others concerning this problem in Yarnell but do not hold your breath, unless we keep pounding them, they are not about to look into it. This retardant is an environmental and a poison to the land and people but going up against a billion dollar industry capable of buying plenty lobbyists, public officials, and propaganda ploys–the chances of change are slim and slow if it does happen.
So keep secret, FS, State services, hide and redact public information concerning what you are doing behind the scenes–keep it all as a trade secret. But you have to turn your head when it comes to the deaths of so many–can you do that in good conscience?
Woodsman says
NOVEMBER 13, 2016 AT 4:49 PM
The best thing you can do ( & should have done a long, long time ago) Is RIP the cord of the propaganda box out of the wall & throw it in the dumpster. DO IT RIGHT NOW! That would go a long way to calm your nerves & live out the rest of your life in maximum peace & happiness. You cannot possibly be this gullible. No way. Your talking points sound like they came straight from MSNBC/CNN/DU. Think for yourself, man!
Oh, and stay off the propaganda mainstream news sites as well…it’s mind controlling poison.
You’re coming apart at the seams, old friend. Don’t buy into the lies & deceit. NONE of the ruling class work for the common man. Transcend the lies & bullshit any way you have to. Live life!
Of course, you’re the master of your own domain, so obviously do what you want but it pains me to witness your suffering.
Woodsman
And I say, thank you for engaging me. I was hoping to provoke RTS into a lively discussion, but you will do.
“Of course, you’re the master of your own domain, so obviously do what you want but it pains me to witness your suffering.”
Yes…I am the master of my own domain. I have reached that sweet spot in life where I can say, “Fuck You”, to everyone I want to. I have everything I want or need and the means to get anything I may want or need in the future. I am truly blessed.
But this isn’t about me, as you said months ago, inside I really have a big heart and when I pretend otherwise I am just posturing or trying to be provocative to encourage participation in this thread. I truly feel sorry for everyone who lost so much in the Yarnell Hill Fire but I still thinks the Helm’s are opportunistic con artists because those are not mutually exclusive positions.
There are a lot of forgotten people out there who have been left behind…and given my socioeconomic and family history…I know those are my people and it pains me to no end to know they have been deceived by the Great Deceiver…Donald Trump. The man lives in a gilded cage, he is only going to help himself and those like him.
“You’re coming apart at the seams, old friend. Don’t buy into the lies & deceit. NONE of the ruling class work for the common man. Transcend the lies & bullshit any way you have to. Live life!”
I am very disappointed, bitter and angry about the election, if you want to know why, please re-read my answer above. I am not coming apart at the seams. As you all know, I hate to brag, but I have been through so much in my life, if I haven’t come apart at the seams by now…I don’t believe anything can make me do that now. And I can multi-task, although I do prefer to work on one problem at a time which is one way I combat my ADHD.
“You’re coming apart at the seams, old friend. Don’t buy into the lies & deceit. NONE of the ruling class work for the common man. Transcend the lies & bullshit any way you have to. Live life!”
I have not bought in to the lies and deceit, but I have analysed a large amount of information and I have reached the appropriate, legitimate and correct conclusions. And it is true that some of the ruling class don’t work for the common man, but it is far from true that none of the ruling class work for the common man. You just have to sort through the mess to find those that do which is what I have done. And that was actually pretty easy given a binary choice.
And I am living life to the fullest, but since I am old now, I can’t go at it 24/7 like I did for most of my life…I have to take breaks now and again. But very soon, I am going to be back down in the dunes because that is where I want to be building a website for no other reason than bragging rights with all of the new prep work I have been doing during this break to make my experience even better.
For example, I didn’t actually break my machine the last time so it had to be welded. I bought a tow bar and had brackets welded on it so the next time a belt breaks (which is what happened last time) I don’t have to have someone help me get it out of the dunes, I can tow it out with one of my Jeeps or my Mongo 4×4 van. Life is good and I am living it as hard as I can…or want to.
Once again this isn’t about me, it is about everyone who does not have the same opportunity I did to live their life as well as I did. Any real problems in my life were caused by me because no matter where I went…there I was. But I don’t even regret that because it made my life much more interesting…and challenging.
It is about all of the people who are NOT…male, white, Christian, conservative, straight, old and angry or whose ancestors came here as immigrants decades ago from Scandinavia. There was a time when Swedes were on the bottom of the pile. Those people are afraid right now…and they should be. And I am in a great position to stand up for them because of who I am. And I am going to keep standing up for them.
“The best thing you can do ( & should have done a long, long time ago) Is RIP the cord of the propaganda box out of the wall & throw it in the dumpster. DO IT RIGHT NOW! That would go a long way to calm your nerves & live out the rest of your life in maximum peace & happiness. You cannot possibly be this gullible. No way. Your talking points sound like they came straight from MSNBC/CNN/DU. Think for yourself, man!”
No…that is NOT the right thing to do. That is what too many Germans did beginning in 1933 and look what happened to Germany. And then that is what the rest of the world did beginning in 1938 and look what happened to the rest of the world.
Now is the time to engage Our Dear Leader Elect, Der Führer Kim Jong Trump, because he will go as far as he can. He really would like to be an autocrat just like his 69 partner…that rat face bastard Putin.
It is hard for me to address what you think I am being gullible about which is why I would like to know more about what you think, and why you think I am being gullible and about what specifically? I have been thinking for myself after I listen and read what others that are far smarter and more connected than I am have researched and reported on. That is what I do, listen to and read about what everyone thinks and say’s…even Fox and Friends and then I make my up my own mind about what to really believe.
I am doing very well at living out the rest of my life in peace and happiness thank you, but as Pastor Martin Niemöller said,
“First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”
So…I have a counter proposal for you. How about you and I meet in the middle, wherever the middle may be…and go together to the Million Woman march on January 21, 2017, to let our voices be heard Road Trip! I don’t know what your ancestry is, but I am guessing it is northern European and you have said on this thread you are not young and it is obvious that you are angry much of the time.
So…we could really help. They will need at least some angry, old(er) white dudes to bring some color and testosterone to the event. You and I still have a lot of testosterone…right? Even though I would walk down the slope and fuck em’ all and you would run down the slope and just fuck a few?
Oh…and one more thing. These are complex issues at play here but we are talking about what I think and I can boil it down to just two really easy to understand and debate points of contention. And if you can undermine my core belief in just these two issues…in any way, then I will concede that I very may be wrong about everything else.
If you can’t…then our debate is over as far as I am concerned, because I will have won. Neither one of us has the time to re-litigate the entire campaign. I have to get back to the dunes, and you have to get back to….whatever it is that you do.
1. I was done with candidate Trump the day he said Senator John McCain (R -Arizona) who has always been a hero to me in a very big way, especially since I spent so much of my life in Arizona and I was a Fuckin’ Republican for much of that time (And now I like him even more because he gave me an American Flag that had been flown over the Capitol Building when I retired in one of those wooden presentation cases) is NOT a war hero. EXCUSE ME?
John McCain could have been immediately released from captivity by the North Vietnamese after he was shot down will bombing Hanoi because his father was an admiral and Commander Of the Pacific Fleet. In addition, his grandfather had been an admiral and the Commander Of the Pacific Fleet. But John McCain refused to accept special treatment because he was one of the elite’s and had been raised in privilege and given opportunities few of us can dream of.
And because he refused, John McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese for the next five years and was a physically broken man when he was finally released. But he was NOT released until everyone else was released with him.
Candidate Trump said; “He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/us/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-record.html?_r=0
Candidate Trump then refused to apologize to Senator John McCain. I don’t know if you know this or not, but his much younger second wife who he met and married decades ago while he was working at some kind of special navy job as a liaison with Congress (Cindie McCain) is filthy rich. She owns (among a lot of other businesses) the largest beer distributor in Phoenix who my ex-brother in law happened to work for (Budweiser) and those Orcs in Phoenix drink a lot of Bud.
I don’t have any idea what all her wealth portfolio has in it, but there is a lot. When John McCain was asked how many houses he owns when he ran as the Republican nominee for President, he couldn’t even answer the question correctly because they own so many beautiful homes in so many places…it was a trick gottcha question. The McCains have also adopted multi racial children with special needs and who were difficult to place with other families…they have a bunch of adopted kids.
You said, “Don’t buy into the lies & deceit. NONE of the ruling class work for the common man.” That is NOT true. Senator McCain is the very epitome of the ruling class and he has worked long hard hours for decades with very little pay (who cares, he doesn’t need it or do it for the money) for the common man. He doesn’t need that hassle and he is a really old man now…and he just ran and won re-election even though Candidate Trump tried to get him defeated so he can continue to work for the common man..
YOU owe John McCain and everyone like him an apology. This thread will accept your apology on Senator McCain’s behalf…if you make it with heartfelt sincerity.
2 . And recently Our Dear Leader Elect, Der Führer Kim Jong Trump was asked if he went “to far” with some of the things he said during the campaign to get elected and he said, “NO…I WON!” So now I am done with Our Dear Leader Elect, Der Führer Kim Jong Trump, he will NEVER be my President.
Too many words, Gary. You were clearly not being 100% truthful (whether you realize it or not) when you said you were role playing in order to stimulate participation in this thread – these are your true thoughts, so be honest with yourself & own it.
You’re frothing. You’ve hitched your wagon to ‘their’ train. The problem is, no matter whose train one decides to hitch to, they’re both headed over the cliff. I choose not to hitch to either ‘party’s’ train & even thus, I’m probably still headed over the cliff with everyone else whether I like it or not. You can worship John McCain all you want, I choose to worship no man….and I certainly don’t owe him or anyone else an ‘apology.’
I gave you (unsolicited) advice to turn off the idiot box. It’s your choice whether you take it or not. A population pitted against itself is easier to distract & control. That is the trap I’m purporting that you have fallen in to. While we are fighting amongst ourselves, ‘they’ are planning the next move and we the people are blinded by the bullshit so do not notice. It’s a sham.
Just what exactly, do the Helms have to do with anything on the Yarnell Hill fire? Opportunistic con artists? Explain it to me, seriously. I want to know.
You do know what our current president said after he ‘won’ the election for the first time, right? How is it different because a ‘white guy’ said it now? Riddle me that.
You were hoping to engage RTS? Cough………….bullshit…………cough, cough… You were hoping to engage anyone in order to vent your anger. Well….I’ll be your huckleberry….for now.
Woodsman
ps: NONE of this absolute crap of a discussion has any meaningful purpose to help with the point of this entire website..which is to figure out just what the hell went wrong that led to the tragic deaths of 19 hotshots at the Yarnell Hill fire, and what can be done to prevent its reoccurrence in the future.
Smiling to myself…
Proud to be Canadian 🙂
You have every right to be ROTFFL or whatever that one is, I would be too in your position.
Unfortunately for you…Canada is our biggest trading partner and the nuclear winter will affect you sooner than us…although we will all be dead.
And that doesn’t even address our common security interests and participation in NATO. I’m afraid we are all in for a rough ride that may turn deadly.
In the meantime…please have a good laugh on U.S. The clowns have officially taken over the circus.
.
Reply to Rocksteady post on November 14, 2016 at 6:25 pm
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> Smiling to myself…
>> Proud to be Canadian.
Ya sure… you betcha…
But can you do us all a favor down here?
Try to keep your websites up.
Article Title: How to move to Canada: Immigration website crashes as Donald Trump becomes 45th US President
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/how-to-move-to-canada-immigration-website-crash-donald-trump-president-a7406106.html
—————————————————————
The Canadian immigration site has broken as people look to leave the US in the immediate aftermath of Donald Trump’s election as the country’s new president.
The official website for ‘Citizenship and Immigration Canada’ has stopped working, apparently because of the sheer number of people looking to emigrate to the country from south of the border.
—————————————————————
Its a “virtual WALL !!!! ” 🙂
Can’t come in if you cant apply..
ROFL.
Followup question…
How many border patrol agents do YOU guys have?
Enough?
Thank you for stepping forward Huckleberry, but that was a DEFLECTION worthy of the best spin artist in a major league spin room. Are you really a political consultant by any chance?
You said, “Too many words, Gary. You were clearly not being 100% truthful (whether you realize it or not) when you said you were role playing in order to stimulate participation in this thread – these are your true thoughts, so be honest with yourself & own it.”
But apparently you didn’t read what I said,
“And in case you haven’t figured it out by now, which I know you have because you are so intuitive…at least half of what I write on this thread is an act at least half of the time as I role play while I try to draw people out…sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t”.
You said, “You’re frothing. You’ve hitched your wagon to ‘their’ train. The problem is, no matter whose train one decides to hitch to, they’re both headed over the cliff. I choose not to hitch to either ‘party’s’ train & even thus, I’m probably still headed over the cliff with everyone else whether I like it or not. You can worship John McCain all you want, I choose to worship no man….and I certainly don’t owe him or anyone else an ‘apology.’
No…I just checked…no froth. And you are right about one thing for sure, YOU are NOT an island and you will proceed me over the cliff since you have said you work for a state agency…state’s can’t print money like the federal government can to continue to pay my pension AND Social Security and soon Medicaid. I didn’t say I “worship” John McCain, I said I he “has always been a hero to me in a very big way.” If you aren’t a big enough man to apologize when you are so clearly wrong…then that is on you. I thought you were a defender of all military men at all times on this thread and did not want to paint any of what happened on the YHF as being related to Steed and others Marine Corps training?
You said, “I gave you (unsolicited) advice to turn off the idiot box. It’s your choice whether you take it or not. A population pitted against itself is easier to distract & control. That is the trap I’m purporting that you have fallen in to. While we are fighting amongst ourselves, ‘they’ are planning the next move and we the people are blinded by the bullshit so do not notice. It’s a sham.”
Whoa now…I hardly know where to start. Are you part of a “group” or a loan wolf that looks for the Illuminati to be plotting the New World Order via the Bush/Yale Skull and Crossbones Society by any chance? Not that I don’t think they are out there too, it’s just we have bigger problems right now, or at least more immediate ones.
You said, “Just what exactly, do the Helms have to do with anything on the Yarnell Hill fire? Opportunistic con artists? Explain it to me, seriously. I want to know.”
And I say, I have asked WTKTT to correct me on this before and he hasn’t, so I guess I have it right. There was no damage to the Helm’s facility and whatever Manzanita and chaparral that did burn on on their property was a good thing. And yet, they filed a 1.5 million dollar lawsuit against Arizona State Forestry for letting the YHF escape. You don’t see a problem with that?
You said, “You do know what our current president said after he ‘won’ the election for the first time, right? How is it different because a ‘white guy’ said it now? Riddle me that.”
And I say, That was way too vague for me, I am aware of SOME things that our current president said after he was elected but certainly not what you are referring to…I guess?
You said, “You were hoping to engage RTS? Cough………….bullshit…………cough, cough… You were hoping to engage anyone in order to vent your anger. Well….I’ll be your huckleberry….for now”
And I said, “Our Supreme Leader-in-Waiting Christian Ayatollah Pence scares me almost as much as Der Führer Trump…he definitely is an ultra right wing Christian ZEALOT of the highest order.
As I have said before on this thread, ZEALOTS of any kind scare the bejesus out of me because they will commit irrational acts in the name of their God.
I wouldn’t trust RTS (or his kind, no offense intended) with the nuclear codes any more than I would the Supreme Leader of Iran…Sayyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei”
AND
“Although if I was a member of the LBGT community…I might feel differently, what Supreme Leader-in-Waiting Christian Ayatollah Pence did in Indiana was an abomination to God because I know God loves LBGT people, or he wouldn’t make so many of them because as RTS knows….God doesn’t ever FUCK UP…am I right?”
AND
As RTS said, only time will tell, BUT we have already seen him back peddle on every fucking election promise he made to you morons.
AND
Yeah…except for Christian Zealots like RTS…I know why you voted for Der Führer Trump…he promised to appoint a Supreme Court Judge who will repeal Roe v. Wade.
YOU PEOPLE are what is known as a Single Issue Voter. Well…I am more concerned our Dear Leader Elect will abort the entire fucking planet with my entire family living on it than I am in other abortions…call me selfish. And that stupid fuck Trump won’t even kill all of us on purpose, his attentions span is so short he will do it by accident.
AND
Although on this thread…it has worked most of the time. Like RTS said, pure Machiavellian…like that’s a bad thing?
So..yes, I was clearly fishing for the Big Tuna RTS but it looks like all I caught is a “Huckleberry.” Does anybody know if a Huckleberry fish is even good eatin’? And although I was hoping for RTS because he and I have locked horns before…I did think that any dumb ass delusional Trump supporter would do.
You said, “ps: NONE of this absolute crap of a discussion has any meaningful purpose to help with the point of this entire website..which is to figure out just what the hell went wrong that led to the tragic deaths of 19 hotshots at the Yarnell Hill fire, and what can be done to prevent its reoccurrence in the future.”
And I say and have said many times here on this thread. Don’t look now Huck, but this thread STOPPED being about the YHF about a year ago. We have even stopped listening to Cheerleader throw hints and talking about an outside expert coming in with new information months ago. I don’t know why you are still here, but I am here right now to vent about Trump and because I found out that I am a serial blogger.
Now…please try and address the two points I specified above, or quit wasting my time (even though I have a lot to waste). Thank you.
.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 14, 2016 at 10:19 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I say, I have asked WTKTT to correct me on this
>> before and he hasn’t, so I guess I have it right. There was
>> no damage to the Helm’s facility and whatever Manzanita
>> and chaparral that did burn on on their property was a
>> good thing. And yet, they filed a 1.5 million dollar lawsuit
>> against Arizona State Forestry for letting the YHF escape.
Actually… Lee ( Hugh ) Helm and his wife, Diane J. ( DJ ) Helm, were asking for 4.4 MILLION dollars in ‘damages’ in their actual original ‘Notice of Claim’… filed within the required 180 days of the ‘incident’.
Arizona Capitol Times – eNewsAZ
Article Title: Nearly 100 Notices of Claim from Yarnell Residents Total Over $281 Million
Published: Friday, 03 January 2014 09:50 – By Lynne LaMaster
http://enewsaz.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=1176:nearly-100-notices-of-claim-from-yarnell-residents-total-over-281-million&Itemid=147
From the article…
—————————————————————————
Craig Knapp, the attorney representing most of the Yarnell claims, discusses why the City of Prescott has been put on notice.
With nearly 100 claims from Yarnell residents, the dollars are adding up quickly. Most total over a million dollars, and many are more than three million.
The Notices of Claim are typically over 20 pages long, and each tells the story of the hardship experienced by the claimant.
Even the insurance company representing the Yarnell Assembly of God Church has put in a claim, of at least $45,000.
An Interview with Craig Knapp
Many in Prescott don’t understand why they are included in these claims. The City sent their firemen to help, and those firemen got killed while serving. Why would they sue Prescott?
In an interview with Craig Knapp, the attorney representing most of the Yarnell residents, he clarified, “At this stage, no one’s been sued. These are notices of claim, number one, which preserves an individual’s right to sue.” Knapp continued, “There’s a lot of information that still needs to be learned by a lot of parties. Who was responsible for what basis of the fire, or fighting this fire, and so forth. The City of Prescott was the employer of the firefighters, number one.”
“When you have a fire like this, that starts from less than an acre, and turns into thousands of acres, there’s typically more than one party that’s involved in that process,” Knapp said. “From the information that I have to date, Yarnell Fire Department as well as the City of Prescott had the ability to put this fire out early, real early, and failed to do it. The City of Prescott, they were involved in the same time period that the State was involved in fighting the fire. It’s not like they walked away and said, “Oh, we have no responsibility, we don’t have any obligations, see you later.” That’s not my understanding.”
Knapp has questions of his own. “And why was this crew sent? Instead of another one? Why was Granite Mountain sent? These guys had been working day and night for a long time. There’s just – I think right now, to say, ‘We didn’t do anything wrong, is premature.'”
“Remember, there are no lawsuits yet,” he reiterated. “These are Notices of Claim, which preserve a party’s right to file a lawsuit. They’ve got to sue within a year here, they’ve got until June 30, 2014.”
** Details of the Notices of Claim
From the document…
Claimants: Hugh L. Helm, Diane J. Helm
Damages sought ( from each named Defendant )…
State of AZ: $1,100,000
City of Prescott: $1,100,000
Yavapai County: $1,100,000
Yarnell Fire District: $1,100,000
Total damages sought: $4,400,000
———————————————————————
There WAS some ‘damage’ to the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’, as seen in photographs taken by SAIT investigators on their visits to the BSR after the fire… but it was just a few of the ‘ornamental wagons’ they had ‘staged’ around the property that burned up.
There was also a report of ONE of the ‘air-conditioning’ units on top of one of the barns being damaged by the fire.
But that’s it.
When you think about it the Helms might just be right in their claim. That place to live is now ruined in a large degree. Who wants to live in a place right next to where 19 young men died considering also that those men died in an attempt to save it?
Not only that it is now a place that will constantly be disturbed by its location and proximity to the death site. So not only does it carry a stigma but living there will not be a peaceful ordeal.
I know that the physical destruction was minimal but other factors make the place a horror scene.
Reply to Charlie post on November 15, 2016 at 9:15 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> When you think about it the Helms might just be
>> right in their claim. That place to live is now ruined
>> in a large degree. Who wants to live in a place right
>> next to where 19 young men died considering also
>> that those men died in an attempt to save it?
>>
>> Not only that it is now a place that will constantly
>> be disturbed by its location and proximity to the
>> death site. So not only does it carry a stigma but
>> living there will not be a peaceful ordeal.
>>
>> I know that the physical destruction was minimal but
>> other factors make the place a horror scene.
Yes… and ‘severe emotional distress’ has ALWAYS been part of the ‘damages’ being claimed by Lee and DJ Helm ( and just about all the other 160+ lawsuits ).
From the actual ‘lawsuit’ filed on June 23, 2014…
http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/yarnell-property-owners-lawsuit.pdf
NOTE In the actual ‘claims’ below that there have always been TWO ‘claims’ with regards to ‘damages’.
1. The negligent handling of the fire on all THREE days.
* AND *
2. The negligent handling of the ‘evacuation’ itself.
These have always been ( and remain ) the TWO separate ‘issues’ that will be addressed if/when these lawsuits are allowed to proceed to trial.
From the lawsuit(s)…
———————————————————–
92. Plaintiff Diane J. Helm is an Arizona resident who suffered damages, including severe emotional distress and property damage to her home, real property, and personal possessions, as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in managing the Yarnell Hill Fire over the period of June 28 to June 30, 2013, and as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in conducting the evacuation of the Yarnell area on June 30,, 2013. Plaintiff Diane J. Helm filed a proper and timely notice of claim, which was denied.
93. Plaintiff Hugh L. Helm is an Arizona resident who suffered damages, including severe emotional distress and property damage to his home, real property, and personal possessions, as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in managing the Yarnell Hill Fire over the period of June 28 to June 30, 2013, and as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in conducting the evacuation of the Yarnell area on June 30,, 2013. Plaintiff Hugh L. Helm filed a proper and timely notice of claim, which was denied.
————————————————————-
Oh Canada….haha!
1. I don’t support any of the rat bastards that want to rule us across the board. I don’t believe they work for us, they work for a system that has been corrupted for over a century.
2. I do support the honorable men & women of our armed forces but just like polititians, it’s not automatic that just because they served they should be adored.
3. The orders for our country are drafted by others & I don’t believe that part of the plan is to kill the payers of the taxes by way of nuclear winter…as that would kinda kill the source of revenue. Of course, the powers that be would be more inclined to kill the non-payers of the taxes or in their eyes: the unproductive. The non-producers are important as well to the planners for other reasons though.
Bottom line is that you have not hooked a supporter of any political leader at all. I trust none of them & I don’t believe they work for us. I simply wanted you to maintain maximum peace & happiness in retirement & not get caught up in the bullshit inflicted on the people by the mainstream media by orders of the powers that be. I think watching the news is destroying your inner peace. I’ll gladly concede a win to you in this discussion in exchange for you being less angry and fearful of the next chosen one to ‘lead’ our nation down the path wherever the bankers say it will go.
Oh and I can’t find your 2 points in there to address so I can quit wasting your nearly unlimited time.
ps: This crapola of a discussion just made me realize that the chemical composition of fire retardant JUST MIGHT include materials that are purposefully incorporated with known harmful effects to the elderly. Before they’re eliminated, the medical industry can extract their remaining $$: Next!
“I’m proud to be a Canadian. Where at least I know I’m free.” Hahaha!
Do you remember when that song came out? Haha! What bullshit. “where at least I know I’m free”?? What the fuck is that? I don’t feel free but that song is so catchy! Haha!
Woodsman
Huckleberry,
The two points I was asking you to address, were numbered, number one (1) and number two (2). And my point is this, how is it acceptable to disrespect our military members (not just John McCain) to point to say that IF they are captured in battle, he doesn’t like them.
He only likes those who are NOT captured. And then when asked IF that statement (and many others) went too far, he said, “NO…I WON.” I guess that means he only likes WINNERS. Do you think he would classify YOU as a WINNER?
So you can boil it down to a single question…how is that attitude NOT disqualifying for him to be Commander-in-Chief of our Armed Forces? Although it does sound like you don’t necessarily support the President Elect….you just don’t support our current President?
And “None of the Above” was NOT running this election cycle.There was a binary choice for a person to make every important decision that will determine how you and your family live (if at all) for the next four (4) to eight (8) years. And I can hardly wait to see a 78 year old Our Dear Leader Elect, Der Führer Kim Jong Trump.
Although I do agree with WTKTT, he is unlikely to last that long, because he has already admitted he is in over his head and he doesn’t have a team other than his kids and American’s Has-Been Cackling Ghoul of a Mayor to back him up. And like SNL say’s…he hasn’t even met the Aliens yet. And like Sonny say’s…they were NOT referring to UDA’s.
Since you don’t watch or read any news, let me the first to tell you that he know wants Top Secret Security Clearances for his fuckin’ children and his youngest, Baron Von Trump is in line to be the Director of the NSA because Der Führer has never seen anyone as good with a computer as that 10 year old kid. He’s fuckin’ AMAZING!
And thank you WTKTT for clearing that up…I guess my mind was so overwhelmed by the thought of the con artist opportunistic Helms were asking for four (4) times 1.1 million dollars, I just rounded it up in my mind to be 1.5 million in total.
So yes, Huckleberry…I guess I do have another question. How is that NOT a problem in your opinion?
1. I was done with candidate Trump the day he said Senator John McCain (R -Arizona) who has always been a hero to me in a very big way, especially since I spent so much of my life in Arizona and I was a Fuckin’ Republican for much of that time (And now I like him even more because he gave me an American Flag that had been flown over the Capitol Building when I retired in one of those wooden presentation cases) is NOT a war hero. EXCUSE ME?
2 . And recently Our Dear Leader Elect, Der Führer Kim Jong Trump was asked if he went “to far” with some of the things he said during the campaign to get elected and he said, “NO…I WON!” So now I am done with Our Dear Leader Elect, Der Führer Kim Jong Trump, he will NEVER be my President.
It is enough to rule yourself, but between Trump, Hillary, Gray Olsen, RTs and a few others many need them. Without wit and rulers concerning the masses what do we have?
This nite ( I know you need to think the English spelling iis so dear to your heart that you can not stand nite) you are hearing from a pure bred Irish bloke. The Irish Goddess that fucked up a lot of your DNA got mine right. See too many of you blokes are learned deviants. You do respect yourselves at the expense of lives of others.
Tonight I had a good talk with one of the 32 degree boys that know things most of you will never know. He is a cop and detective. He did fill me in on a few things–see I did a lot of work for this man–his house did not burn but he classed me as I classed him– a good honest person. I explained why his German heritage was so intelligent–they immigrated from Ireland.
See the world revolves correctly–the Irish gods and goddesses make sure it is so. There is an Irish goddess that knows DNA and how to make a man out of a monkey–something the Christian religion missed. Go back to Sumerian texts or be a high grade mason and you will know. See twenty five thousand texts thousands of years before the bible had Jews kissing stones, told us so much–Egyptian texts destroyed by assholes not knowing what they were doing told the true story of why monkeys became men.
Why 19 men died and 19 is written all over that mountain and situation is to help people understand how wrong things were during the Yarnell debacle. Contrary to Willis assertion that God had some plans for these 19, he had none. They got fucked by bad decisions and lack of wisdom. Likely they are somewhere in heaven–god allows miners in for at least three days–if you can not stand the harp music then get the fuck out. But if they play a good Irish diddy or a cowboy ballad, then I might stay around.
\
Since I met death already and was 30 minutes to then let me say do not worry your bullshit religion it is likely ok but only if your are ok. Three days out of the last heart attack, I met the men who knew I had thirty minutes tonight in the Legion. I would buy them a drink but they were on duty so I will have to take care of that obligation later
Know that life –number one until you can not live longer. The pain is bad but living is better.
Be true and truthful and smile at this or that malady-makes you stronger if you do.
Great men are those like Gary Olson, WTkTT, Woodsman, –I am the guy they drag out of the bush to see if i am alive not important–JOy is very improtant, NOrb of the Fire fighters of Nevada Tahoe lake being a retired boss of two wild land fie fighters, –theses are the men u need to answer to and listen to. For life problems–talk to me before I expire.–maybe not because I would advise be straight in your story involving 19 deaths
Gary,
Politics:
Although we disagreed about the elderly citizens of Yarnell I can find common ground with you about Trump. When I was a classroom teacher I remember reading a children’s book to the kids about what you shared about Trump only it used animals–first they came for the squirrels but I wasnt a squirrel etc. I find Pence and Trump’s white supremacy beliefs to be very dangerous and can only hope that the electoral college vote will be able to right the ship.
Helm’s Property:
You are maintaining that their suit is frivolous- first over 4 million now over 1 million. Aside from the fact that you believe that they should allow access to the deployment site what is your compaint with them? They aren’t the only ones that want limited to no access and they did sustain damage to their property right?
No…they are not, but they have the most viable piece of property to be used for access to the park. And since you are new, you missed the part where I really went after Rex Maughn because he is so rich (hundreds of millions of dollars rich) and has so much land it wouldn’t even impact him but he is a supreme asshole who made his money defrauding gullible people with one of those fake vitamin scams.
The Helms were actually secondary in my ranting, except for my recent ones because of their frivolous lawsuit. And yes…like I said, you are like most people, you like me most of the time, but not all of the time.
People have always loved me when I could do difficult things for them, but as I grew older and could do less and less for them, the less they loved me. Maybe that is a common issue with most old people? You get used up and then eventually thrown away, like the proverbial tooth paste tube?
I actually tried to bait that snake oil salesman Rex Maughn to sue me…WHY WON’T SOMEONE SUE ME? I am pretty good at answering bullshit motions by attorney’s and BORED. I need someone to fight on a regular basis to stay young.
Volunteering at the homeless or animal shelter…is not for me. I am not a nice person. It was fun fighting with RTS for awhile, but he has left…I guess for good?
That old bastard was a worthy opponent…even if he was a shirker on the Murdoch Basin Fire. “.Oh please…give my crew the easy assignment, I need daylight so I can change their diapers.”
Oh…and one more thing. Rex Maughn is the real villain in this story. That shyster has hundreds of thousands of acres and own almost that entire valley all of the way to hell and gone.
And his Cowboy Mansion isn’t anywhere close to there, it is up Cherry Creek. I used to go Jeeping past it all of the time to get access to the back side of the Bradshaw Mountains.
Maughn is the main reason there wasn’t any attempt,t or even any thought by his paid for stooge fellow pretend cowboy Geheime Staatspolizei Gestapo wanabe Steve Pierce the bastard father of the bastard Arizona SB 1070 law and his replacement…Karen Fann, to do what was right and use Imminent Domain laws to gain access to the park for everyone.
It would not have even hurt that Supreme Asshole Rex Maughn is the slightest…he is just a Terminal Asshole.
Gary,
Again you have information that is new to me and helps to put things in some perspective.
Wasn’t it Maughn’s land that air attack was spreading retardant on instead of heading to Yarnall as they were directed? Arizona SB 1070 was enforced while I was teaching full time in an ELL classroom in Tucson and still remember one of my students’ father being sent to an area I believe near Florence and held for what seems like weeks. This father was the only source of financial support for my student’s family so when they took him away to hold for deportation the mother and children were left without money for food or rent. The boy’s birthday occurred during this time so some teachers raised money for them as well as wrote supportive letters to send to the authorities that this was a father who came to school conferences and was a neded strong role model in the home. I witnessed first hand how devastated the family was left by SB 1070. After a time the father was released to come home and wasn’t deported to Mexico.
It appears that the wealthy received special services (retardant etc.) during the fire that according to tradition they deserved based on the taxes they paid . Holding air attack in Peeples Valley for those 45 minutes that they were needed in Yarnell for help with retardant for structures and possibly making a difference for saving Granite Mountain is difficult to defend.
That theory has always been “hanging” out there that has been mostly supported by the work done by WTKTT backed up by the Woodsman that strongly suggest (and I believe it) that there was some irregularities (cowboy action) going on with air attack decsioin making process that day.
Air attack veterans like Bob Powers have pushed back against this hypothesis citing those problems as business as usual within what could be considered normal “fog of war”…that is to say what could be expected in a chaotic fast changing dynamic environment with poor communication brought on by lots of complicated issues such as antenna placement, line of sight, repeater locations and cryptic but suggestive radio communications between ground command personnel and air attack itself.
The focus of the seemingly independent decisions that were either borderline or over the line insubordination by air attack on this thread has concentrated on what impact this disconnect may have had on the death of the crew or failure to make a valid and concerted effort to save Yarnell etc., with retardant.
I really think you are the first one to cross the Rubicon and start to wonder out loud if there was a deliberate attempt by “someone” that day to try and save the few “have’s at the cost of the many “have much less.”
In other words, being a former grunt with virtually no experience outside of fire line as a hotshot, I can only say it looks suspect to me, but I don’t know?
So…was there someone on the ground or many someone who wanted to try and protect ranches and property of the rich and influential? It wouldn’t surprise me in the least, but it would take an Inspector General (Internal Affairs) type investigation to go down that road today…and “they”, as you know, have never shown any interest in even determining the real reasons why the crew died much less why air attack continued working up north when they should have been down south…I think as much as 45 minutes earlier, which is was an eternity on June 30, 2013.
You are really going to need the magic of WTKTT supported by the practical experience of the Woodsman to open this can of worms again. It is made more complicated by the fact that the one of who I consider to be the most culpable party that day (Burfiend) received a huge promotion after the fire and he is now the fox in charge of the hen house…kind of.
That is a lot of blah…blah…blah that basically say’s you are probably right.
I believe that Darrel Willis was the last official on the ground directing retardant drops on the Peeples Valley when air attack was directed to go to Yarnell but didn’t.
* Could Willis or Dan Sullivan have been the ones continuing to direct drops from the ground during the 45 minute critical timeframe?
* Air attack communications (FOIAs) could answer this question correct?
*If Willis was concerned about continued funding for the wildland dept in Prescott wouldn’t he have therefore been committed to satisfying RexMaughn by accommodating retardant drops on his and other wealthy ranchers property?
*If so, could he have inadvertently sacrificed Yarnell homeowner properties as well as possibly the lives of Granite Mountain to satisfy the wealthy ranchers ?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
November 16, 2016 at 7:59 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I believe that Darrel Willis was the last official
>> on the ground directing retardant drops on
>> the Peeples Valley when air attack was
>> directed to go to Yarnell but didn’t.
That is not correct.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-389581
I understand that radio communications must have been confusing at best but it stands to reason to me that Darryl Willis and Todd Abel would have taken notice that air attack was being directed to the yarnell area at about 3:50 p.m.
Doesn’t common sense say that they knew Granite Mountain in the Yarnell area as well as the citizens and town of Yarnell would need that air attack that they were requesting elsewhere? How were they not prioritizing the areas that they were working over Yarnell and Granite Mountain?
Also why would air attack respond to their requests instead instead of following their directions to go to Yarnell? Especially for 45 minutes?
I really should have said Maughn’s Cowboy Mansion is up S. Wagoneer Road instead of up towards Cherry Creek. Cherry Creek is up higher. There are a whole bunch of big Cowboy Mansions up that road and all around that area in general.
Maybe there were some people in charge who were more concerned about that constituency that day more than there were about the mostly “have nots” in Yarnell.
The people in Yarnell probably mostly vote because they are old and angry, but they also all probably vote straight line Republican and they don’t give political contributions like Rex Maughn and his asshole buddies do.
Gary,
Your statements about the wealthy landowners in the Peeples Valley area could be very relevant—but then, I assume that you already knew that and I am just trying to catch up.
Going up against that wealthy faction is extremely difficult and dangerous to careers in that area. In addition many of those in charge of the fire must be well respected individuals so to call into question the motives (preference for the wealthy landowners) over doing what is right (defend the less weathly and vulnerable) must be almost unthinkable.
Where can I find the part where you went after Rex maughan ?
Only God and WTKTT know.
When I was a kid I knew how to survive, but my teachers did not. They were buffaloed by education. I have that too now. I am also buffaloed but I smile about it, even laugh–Inside information.
Yes I have the bathides, bona fied as much as my son is a RN , my daughter a masters in business (a multimillionaire), my son dead now was an underwater welder, and Jaime Enrique Mario Gilligan was listed among the ten top poker players in AZ. Am I proud of those Irish-Mexican kids, –as much as the Irish Gods are. Jaime has the Irish cloverleaf tattooed on him in plain sight.
Never be afraid of who you are unless you have to hide the truth–hiding truth of the deaths of 19 will kill you suddenly.
I guess if I ever fuck up it would be because I hindered Joy’s quest to help expose the truth to save more firefighters.
Hey hard for Sonny to handle–Joy went into a fit, the feds told her 800 bucks for the FOIA she wanted. I thought her brother had died–JD called and brought her out of it–shit I just had a bad heart attack helicopters , fast sergeons, and 30 minutes to death. I got pissed sure. Took her home then came back, hey it is 3 days since death do I depart.
The Irish Gods are smiling, especially Dana, the main goddess of all. You have two alternative arguing with a woman if you are a cow boy–neither works.
Most important is not me, or you. The truth that killed those kid–that will save more.
I am sorry I have not read IM lately…I have been trying to balance an unbalance schedule…I get Tex is part of a world when he grew up free and never became part of the systemic programmable way of life and yet with this fire industry I just know alot of data and want to gain as much data to what I eyewitnessed…Sonny feels he has rights because he is from the old world like he is grandfathered in and he never takes the time to comprehend say for example game wardens and how some locals would hoard the fish so wardens try to make it fair so a number was set but then there is folks like Sonny who do not like restrictions and yet I see both sides…just as I do in the methods used in the fire industry and how they pad the books for more revenues and grant monies…these wealthy folks who could help those who lost a loved one…where are you…sure could use you as investors. …if you dont like a law you dont break it you figure a way to make them change and that takes real time data and real time and as I have learned in my debt…money money money…I would give my life up for one investor to really sit down and help me because my way takes forever because of deadlines and fees and so much more…if I had the right investor I could be alot further ahead…sonny is ok…👍 he is out having a good time…Im too drained to do the same
I am living life — instead of in a hospice–ready to do what is needed to do. Tonight it is corona and lime–but I have plenty of Guinness in my fridge. See, this world is about to quit turning for me, but not for most of you. Believe me dying is not bad, nothing fearful, I was there already and back. I would go into battle to defend the principles of this country again at any time. The people here are the best and reason that immigrants come her.
For your information–Brockman–cop 32 mason well detective informed me that the higher the emotion the less the intelligence. That, since I do know it to be true is a good thing to tell people. Cops do have to arrest those out of hand emotionally. Sadly they get there too.
But this is Yarnell, very quiet–like Sonny–keep away from problems. WTKTT knows we can not–we must keep the Hitler mentality in check–but the brainwashed mentality gives up their freedoms and lives for promises of protection. Bullshit, talk to Gary, Sonny, Norb, et. al.==we will teach you that you need only you and a good education to how to do it. Cops show up much too late.
Oh, in the case of 19 deaths do not listen to Marsh, Joy or maybe Sonny–well maybe Sonny–I know the dangers of dropping off into an entanglement when a ranging wild fire is at hand. Likely some of the city educated wildland fire fighters do not. Add to the list for safety Rick McKinsey. I know him personally, you can bet that cowboy would keep you alive as I did Joy that day
Met the guys that saved me tonight at the Legion. Know that had there been a 30 min delay i would be history. Know that since then Joy and Dr. Ted wanted me to be out of ear shot and I get it==they are getting to the truth and sonny could reveal things before their time. True since I will and would do that because I think differently==see I trust you all with the info as I get it because I am a novice and believe you can make those decisions as to whether this or that should be known. But then maybe I should be careful since if someone is alerted early, then they might have a defense. How though can you defend lies.
WTKTT said,
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> it didn’t end well for those who opposed Der Führer.
It didn’t end well for those who supported him, either.
Well…I only watched “Third Reich – The Rise” last night on the History Channel. So please don’t spoil the ending for me.
As of last night, Der Führer Kim Jong Trump’s role model was having his own way with the world, especially, Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia. So far…so good.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 13, 2016 at 4:58 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well…I only watched “Third Reich – The Rise” last night on the History
>> Channel. So please don’t spoil the ending for me.
Okay… but prepare yourself… it’s a doozy.
Hint: Whenever anyone uses hatred and racism and bigotry as ‘marketing tools’… the karma is ( eventually ) a real bitch.
Whoops… meant to say…
Hint: Whenever anyone uses hatred and racism and bigotry as ‘marketing tools’… the karma is ( eventually ) a real ( non-gender specific ) bitch.
Copy THAT!
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 12, 2016 at 7:56 pm
>> Gary Olson said ( to Sonny )…
>>
>> And I would very much like to see the photo with the 19 over your shoulder,
>> I have heard about it many times, but I have never actaully seen it.
>> Can you please post a link to it?
>>
>> Thanks, Gary
That photograph is still sitting online at the following link.
Look in the upper left corner of the photograph… on the rock face above the campfire…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAD-eQ2uss8FqHAT3C8CLCzsa/dec242014weavertop%20%287%29.jpg?dl=0
And here is the original discussion about this photograph back in Chapter 11…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xi/#comment-222633
From the start of that original ‘discussion’ ( about the photograph )…
** On December 29, 2014 at 3:26 pm, Sonny said…
Referring to the number 19 in the photo that Joy took with her cell phone as I sat by the campfire–I mentioned it to a local Psychic–she said she got goose bumps from that. We were just above the two track in full view of the deployment sight. We were honoring the 19 with a nice cowboy campfire on Christmas night and me with a few Guinness beers when Joy snapped the photo, The small, almost unnoticeable number 19 appears dimly illuminated just above my head in the background. Now this lady psychic believes there are some things not yet said and there are those trying to reach us about those things..
Well cops use psychics to solve things, so Joy and I wondered what she might reveal about this, and considering that this person has a Master’s degree, and believes strongly in what she does, we offered to hike her up there above the area to get her take on things. Whew, I never used to believe in much of the other world stuff, but then when I see the number 19 in that photo I wonder. It seems that police and FBI have used such sources with some degree of success.
I think because there has been a lot of resistance to our continued inquiries into this incident, we have ramped up a bit. Joy especially is not letting up. This JD site is working hard at getting to the truth because those loved ones and friends, as well as firefighters and the nation need to know what really went down that day. So we like those of you working on JD will do our humble best to contribute where we can.
** On December 29, 2014 at 5:49 pm, WTKTT replied…
Sonny… just for clarity’s sake… you are talking about THIS photo, right?…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAD-eQ2uss8FqHAT3C8CLCzsa/dec242014weavertop%20%287%29.jpg?dl=0
I think I DO see exactly what you are talking about… but at the same time… I’m not sure I’m ‘seeing it’ in the same place you are describing above.
If we ‘divide’ the photo into 4 even quarters… I am talking about the UPPER LEFT quarter.
Is that YOU ‘standing’ there, sort of in the shadows?
You said you were ‘sitting by the campfire’… but the ‘figure’ I seem to see in that UPPER LEFT quadrant seems to be STANDING.
If that really is you STANDING there… then YES… I see what you are talking about ‘dimly lit’ there in the rocks just above your head.
At first glance, however, ( to me, anyway )… it simply looked like a FACE there in the rock… with two eyes, a nose and mouth.
But if you ‘squint’ at it… then “YES… the ‘right side of the face’ could also be construed to look like the number 9 ( NINE )… and the ‘shadows’ of the left side of the face could be construed as the digit 1 ( ONE ).
** On December 30, 2014 at 8:57 am, Bob Powers said…
I see the 19 clear left side of the Picture.
There is a vertical fire reflection on the rock at the top of it and just to the left
a very clear 19 in a light gray color.
Interesting– A note in 2010 & 2011 I was investigator with the Local TAPS affiliate here in Idaho. There are some very interesting things out there in the Paranormal world.
There are things that happen and may never happen again. For what ever reason
it is a communication from another realm. The communication could be good or bad you may never know. Thanks Joy and Sonny.
** On December 30, 2014 at 3:50 pm, WTKTT replied…
Yes. I have heard of TAPS.
TAPS = The Atlantic Paranormal Society
Legitimate group that tries to investigate paranormal events in a professional manner…. AND teach others ( including law enforcement agencies and officers ) how to do so as well.
From the TAPS website…
http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/
“The Atlantic Paranormal Society (TAPS). TAPS was founded in 1990 by Jason Hawes with the sole purpose of helping those experiencing paranormal activity by investigating its claims in a professional and confidential manner, and using the latest in paranormal research equipment and techniques. TAPS brings decades of experience in investigating with its pioneering equipment and techniques that has changed the field of paranormal investigating.”
** On December 30, 2014 at 6:36 pm, Bob Powers replied…
Yes they are a very professional group. And any findings are double checked at the State level. It changed my mind on Paranormal activity.
For 2 years I was a investigator and the main person that went thru all the recording tapes. Found a few things that would make your hair stand up on your neck. So Sonny’s picture is quite interesting.
** On January 1, 2015 at 1:06 am, WTKTT replied…
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”.
Hamlet (1.5.167-8) – Author: William Shakespeare
Well…thank you very much for posting the link, and I want to believe.
And I sure as hell do see the face which would scare the bejusus out of me if I were on that mountain that night and make me di di mau most ricky tick, but I have yet to see the number.
But I will try again tomorrow.
Oh…and that program on the History Channel I was watching, it didn’t end well for those who opposed Der Führer.
So I want to take back everything I have said about Our Dear Leader…Kim Jong Trump and his wife’s tits, which I understand they spared no expense building.
And her eyes, they are not squinty at all, nor do they dart back and forth like a serpents. And I really do love the whole “Zoolander” look…very chic.
So…we good?
Heil Der Führer Kim Jong Trump!
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 13, 2016 at 12:32 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well…thank you very much for posting the link, and I want to believe.
>>
>> And I sure as hell do see the face which would scare the bejusus
>> out of me if I were on that mountain that night and make me di
>> di mau most ricky tick, but I have yet to see the number.
Some people see it ( the number )… some people don’t.
I didn’t at first ( just the weird ‘face’ )… but after looking at it for awhile I could definitely see the ‘9’ ( on the right side of the ‘the face’ )… and then what could be construed as a ‘1’ to the left of it.
Others see it ( the number ) right away. ( Like Bob Powers did ).
Mileage will vary… but it is what it is ( a very interesting photo ).
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> it didn’t end well for those who opposed Der Führer.
It didn’t end well for those who supported him, either.
Donald Trump is the oldest person ever elected to the US Presidency.
He is already 70 ( and almost one-half ) years old.
Born June 14, 1946.
The ‘health reports’ he ( himself ) put out during his campaign were obviously only worth however much he ‘paid’ for them.
So among a lot of other things that people still don’t know about the guy… no one really knows how ‘healthy’ he is ( or isn’t ) at this point.
A few trips down the elevator in the Whitehouse to the regular NSC ( and other ) meetings that take place many floors underneath it…. and where every President learns the things that only Presidents get to know… and he could very well have a stroke most-ricky-tick.
But we are now in a situation where we better hope this narcissistic sociopath with the maturity level of a confused 14-year old stays healthy until he can be voted OUT of office…
…because the guy who is now that ‘one-heartbeat-away’ from the Presidency ( Mike Pence ) is even scarier than Trump.
Trump is only concerned about himself and his own own ‘Trumpness’.
But this Pence guy thinks he is now ( and always has been ) on a ‘Mission from God’.
Yes…Our Supreme Leader-in-Waiting Christian Ayatollah Pence scares me almost as much as Der Führer Trump…he definitely is an ultra right wing Christian ZEALOT of the highest order.
As I have said before on this thread, ZEALOTS of any kind scare the bejesus out of me because they will commit irrational acts in the name of their God.
I wouldn’t trust RTS (or his kind, no offense intended) with the nuclear codes any more than I would the Supreme Leader of Iran…Sayyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei
But I think he does listen a little be better than Der Führer Trump does to others who are more sane…like almost every other Fuckin’ Republican there is in the country, at least he doesn’t have the attention span of a spoiled 4 year old brat with an anger management problem on top of a Revenge Above All Else policy.
Although if I was a member of the LBGT community…I might feel differently, what Supreme Leader-in-Waiting Christian Ayatollah Pence did in Indiana was an abomination to God because I know God loves LBGT people, or he wouldn’t make so many of them because as RTS knows….God doesn’t ever FUCK UP…am I right?
Gary,
I agree with about pence.
The white supremacy movement is abhorrent.
If Joy has posted the correct photo with the number then you will see it above my shoulder. She had taken a few photos that night.
Now since we again hiked that place so many times, Joy and I did rest right where we once talked with Eric Marsh. This was after that photo — on a rock next to us I was looking at I noticed an almost perfect large 19 in that way and form like this (19). It is red iron oxide, natural there and must have happened after a rock fracture separated. She did take a photo of that 19 on the rock, and I hope she can locate it so she can post it. That particular 19 would still be there on that rock–about a foot high as I remember. There were three 19’s all look alikes in form–one that floated above my shoulder, one that we laid out in 19 rocks and one that was somehow naturally formed right where we met Marsh. Nature and coincidences?
Oh did you see the devils face in one of those fire photos? He must reside in that area since someone convinced a lot of people to die that day. There actually was a photo of the fire that had a terrible face in it — the devil had other plans for those men that day. God had his day off to my way of thinking.
The devil was in that lentil soup I made too. I added jalapeno with all the seeds and garlic–one way you can get hot lips for sure. Add a guiness to cool it down.
Amazing, since I told Joy this guy Trump would turn up to be another Hitler type way back when he started to run. We get this way back when we saw him treat people as lesser than and giving no considerations to the differences, varieties and inherent weakness we all have. Einstein after all, a Jew would have been killed by Hitler–he did have unruly hair and was in Hitler’s eyes a Jew and not inclined to wear Jack Boots.
But if you look at Hillary she would not miss the Hitler mark by much. If you have observed her when she gets angry the emotions equate to Hitlers looks and attitude. Well, I did not do what every American should do–vote. How could I in good conscience vote for either seeing that Hillary is so lax on security measures and with her and Janet Reno during the Bill Clinton regime having killed the religious zealots and 80 some women, men and children just so they could have a police tobacco and fire arms practice run gave her and Bill bad marks in my book. I was one of the few Americans that was seeing that siege disgraceful during the time most Americans were applauding the action. After all that David Koresh had been to the sheriff station, was about town and could easily have had a bullet through the head with no problem considering the accuracy of swat team equipment and their abilities to sniper out whom they wish.
But nothing is perhaps more distasteful than to see 19 young men, most in their early twenties killed because of negligence or someone’s desire to protect structures at the Boulder Ranch. Dianne has it right, the Blue Ridge, etc. were not instructed to help people out–nor were the GMHS–their mission was to protect structures at the peril of their own lives. A shame indeed and because of the cover up, there is little attitude to make adjustments in the wild land fire fighting methods or have the people involved to take responsibility of their parts in this debacle.
Now we need to look into the possibility that a burn a couple hundred yards above the Shrine area along that dirt road could have trapped the men as well. There are photos we have observed of two smoke large and separate smoke stacks in more than one photo pointed toward the Shrine area and south. I had before thought that the Peeples Valley stack was too far away to have caught the men and the fire to be where it was and so soon on us when we got back to my old station wagon on foothills drive (where we began our excursion that day). But if there was a burnout near the Shrine then when the wind whipped back in reverse that Shrine canyon would go up toward the Helms like gang busters. That canyon was extremely dense in every way. It was full of brush and old oak trees that had to be close to a hundred years old–some between 50-80 foot in size and beautiful shade trees. Shooting off were some washes that were brush areas that would funnel fires over the rocky sides right to where the plain is on the west side of the ridge. That brush on the plain extended right up to the Helms, along the north side of Glen Isla, and directly up into the canyon where the men were entangled. I do not know the exact distance from that burn out to the Helms, something to be studied, but having hiked it more than once with Joy even before the fire, I would estimate it to be about two miles and all in an upgrade. Alternatively if you looked at the Peeples Valley main fire going northeasterly the distance when it switched would have been quite a bit more–maybe twice the distance when it reversed. The upgrade would have been less as well and we know just a 10 degree slope doubles the velocity of a wildfire and twenty degrees would triple the velocity. More telling is the way wind gusts up to 45 mph sweep up embers and get the spot fires going far ahead of the burn outs. And in this type dehydrated manzanita in 106 degree F temperatures, it is like heated oil that only needs a spark to explode. And exploding was what we were seeing from the mountaintop during the consummation of manzanita with the wildfire going toward Peeples Valley.
This indeed is a situation that needed to be evaluated–did the GMHS even know a burnout was being done there? Radio traffic if investigated would tell. If not why not and why isn’t this issue addressed?
I can’t and won’t defend everything Hillary or Bill Clinton have ever done in their 30 plus years in government.
But…given a binary choice of either a confirmed, avowed, documented, UNREPENTANT, racist, bigot, misogynist, homophoebe, and hater of anyone different than him, who disrespects all of those who he perceives who are NOT winners (and that is almost all of YOU PEOPLE) who thinks the only reason we have thermonuclear weapons is to use them, who has never held an elected office in his entire life and who has never done anything that does not directly benefit Donald Trump (fake charity etc.) and who won’t release his taxes so we can see the extent of his foreign business interests and entanglements and who is planning on maintaining his current level of interest in his businesses (a blind trust run by his children is NOT a blind trust) who everyone of any stature in this country deemed as manifestly unqualified to be President (including 25 per cent of the people who voted for him) who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth on third base while he pretends he hit a triple and has been a soiled brat his entire adult life and who is now having his FUCKING KIDS choose our next government…the choice for me was pretty simple…and a vote for ANYONE other than someone, however flawed she is, but who is someone who everyone of an any stature in this country agreed was one of the most qualified candidates to ever run for President…I voted for Hillary Clinton. It was a no-brainer.
And I hope all of you who voted for Der Führer, Our Dear Leader, Kim Jong Trump do not live to regret your vote because that means I will live to regret it as much as you do…and we will all be FUCKED…and not in a good way.
As RTS said, only time will tell, BUT we have already seen him back peddle on every fucking election promise he made to you morons.
So…pay attention assholes;
I am, White (Nordic Descent), Old (on Social Security), Angry, Christian, Conservative, Law and Order Super fan (Retired Law Enforcement – Federal Agent), Blue Collar (for most of my adult life and in attitude for all of my adult life), and who is a national affairs, international affairs and news junkie who was raised on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale (in other words…I am one of you, not a coastal elite) and the thought of Donald J. Trump being the Commander-In-Chief of the most powerful military the planet has ever seen and who in fact possess the power to destroy the planet hundreds of times over and someone who will control the immense power of the Executive Branch of our Federal Government scares the beejesus out of me. So…what the FUCK were YOU PEOPLE thinking?
Sorry Charlie…I am too busy thinking about what I need to do to get ready to kiss my ass goodbye to think very much about the Yarnell Hill Fire anymore because I think the odds are even that we will all be joining the Yarnell Hill 19 soon enough…and we can ask them what the fuck happened.
Yeah…except for Christian Zealots like RTS…I know why you voted for Der Führer Trump…he promised to appoint a Supreme Court Judge who will repeal Roe v. Wade.
YOU PEOPLE are what is known as a Single Issue Voter. Well…I am more concerned our Dear Leader Elect will abort the entire fucking planet with my entire family living on it than I am in other abortions…call me selfish. And that stupid fuck Trump won’t even kill all of us on purpose, his attentions span is so short he will do it by accident.
HEY…my father was killed as a laborer in an underground mine, Der Führer Trump’s father was a real estate tycoon (slum lord) who left him tens of millions of dollars. Doesn’t that get me membership in your Blue Collar Club?
Der Führer was a Fuckin’ Democrat until three years ago and spent all of his adult life as an EAST COAST LIBERAL ELITE who has supported the Clinton’s for decades.
The only reason he ran as a Fuckin’ Republican is because he knew he couldn’t beat Hillary in a primary and the Fuckin’ Republican field was wide open.
I know I have a lot of time on my hands, so I am a high information citizen…but don’t YOU PEOPLE ever watch the news?
The best thing you can do ( & should have done a long, long time ago) Is RIP the cord of the propaganda box out of the wall & throw it in the dumpster. DO IT RIGHT NOW! That would go a long way to calm your nerves & live out the rest of your life in maximum peace & happiness. You cannot possibly be this gullible. No way. Your talking points sound like they came straight from MSNBC/CNN/DU. Think for yourself, man!
Oh, and stay off the propaganda mainstream news sites as well…it’s mind controlling poison.
You’re coming apart at the seams, old friend. Don’t buy into the lies & deceit. NONE of the ruling class work for the common man. Transcend the lies & bullshit any way you have to. Live life!
Of course, you’re the master of your own domain, so obviously do what you want but it pains me to witness your suffering.
Woodsman
GO WOODSMAN!
Thanks, Cheer!
I could tell him how our ‘money’ system really works, but I don’t want him to stroke out. Baby steps. I know you know the truth there. I’m impressed you knew – you’re a pretty cool cat. girl!!!
Woodsman
OK…I feel better now…thanks.
I would like to know more. I am an inquisitive person by nature. Please tell me where I have gone wrong.
And in case you haven’t figured it out by now, which I know you have because you are so intuitive…at least half of what I write on this thread is an act at least half of the time as I role play while I try to draw people out…sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t.
Although on this thread…it has worked most of the time. Like RTS said, pure Machiavellian…like that’s a bad thing?
The only hard part if someone really wants to get inside my head…is to figure out which half is which.
I understand–hey I turned purple like a real space alien just a couple days ago and after the copter ride to the hospital (good gods of the Irish I was ready to jump out of the copter were I not strapped to a board. A good reaming and that doctor got me breathing again and says he expanded clogged stents and got rid of blood clots as well. Good thing Joy told them don’t fill me with morphine which I would have loved, so I was awake the whole procedure, breathing well enough that the good doctor agreed to let me go the next day at 1 pm–I have a reputation of having signed myself out of that place and hospice before so, this time the doc said OK, but go to Phoenix right away to your cardiologist.
They can make you feel like the TV add–tomorrow with their heart meds. Living on borrowed time?
Joy is very serious about the 19 deaths and getting to the truth there–and of course we all are. So today we did a nice visit with concerned people that want to remain incognito but are working as well. I think something will eventually come of it all, likely within the next few years–maybe before we all expire.
I was entirely at the mercy of the EMTs here and they told Joy that 30 more minutes and I would have been a goner. Hell it gave me an extra heart attack when they jabbed me with that large intravenous needle and kept trying to get it in in various places. Joy said the EMT was still asleep (it was 6am or so) and the proceedure left plenty of blood on the floor, but I was in no condition to ward him off.
Goes to say life is very close to death but some of us do the Irish saying WTKTT posted–that says more or less, that when it comes to cheating may it only be when it comes to cheating death. The Irish Gods, good doctors, and maybe even me and a few others are guilty of that count–,likely you Gary Olson and more than once I am certain.
I saw Trump as you do, but then I see the other side as working that way as well. Hillary has hidden many of her dealings that have profited her greatly. I had to refrain from voting–I think you would have been a better choice than either of them.
Early days of the Fire:
Possibly on Saturday June 29th,2013 as the fire began to get out of control didn’t BLM volunteer to take over this responsibility?
And Arizona Forestry rejected the offer—wondering how different the outcome may have been if BLM took control then instead of after it was
out of control and why Arizona Forestry declined initially.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
November 15, 2016 at 5:29 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Early days of the Fire:
>>
>> Possibly on Saturday June 29th,2013 as the fire
>> began to get out of control didn’t BLM volunteer
>> to take over this responsibility?
That is absolutely CORRECT.
See a longer ( more detailed ) ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-390187
I have some questions about the burn-out in the Shrine area.
Why would a burn-out in that area have happened, if it did?
Was it to protect the Boulder Springs Ranch or other areas? if true, was it a mistake by misguided individuals or could there have been a productive purpose?
There has been a lot of secrecy around this issue -why?
Here is my unprofessional view–likely to be corrected by the experts here and I do not mind. Bob Brandon, public knowledge that he was a Peeples Valley water tender (there was Peeples Valley Water Truck escaping the Shrine area in the Video that Elizabeth posted on U Tube then retracted to private viewing. However WTKTT I do believe re posted the video in a different link since it is also there posted by other places and people as well. Dr. Anderson, former fire board member of Yarnell, stated to us that Bob Brandon had stated to him and a group of people in speaking about the fire that he was one of the people setting burn out fires above the Shrine. The video of his truck coming out of that area is public so at least we have that photo of the truck. Joy and I saw a video of men lighting fires on the west side of the Shrine road–we recognized the area since we had hiked it several times before the fire. But that video disappeared and never reappeared. That was soon after the fire and we did not at that time know the significance of that video and we had nothing but the Public Library to view things. We were living in a storage unit at the time since being evicted from OAK PARK Motel where I had rented apartment 15 before the fire.
The significance is that the Shrine area was an intensely dense area of vegetation up that canyon. A burn out there would have been intended to protect the Shrine and the main of Yarnell below the Shrine Area. But that was OK as long as winds were directed toward Peeples Valley and really would have been mostly OK for Helms and Glen Isla except that the winds reversed. The Shrine area burn would be directed exactly toward the canyon the men were entangled in and the Helms as well. It also would parallel the north side of Glen Isla and if turned, which it did more to the SW, it would attack Glen Isla properly which it did.
It could have been the fire that actually cut off the GMHS instead of the Peeples Valley fire–but that would have to be closely scrutinized, times wind direction, etc. analyzed. Point is no one wants to say there was burn out in that area and even if it is proven, not necessarily the one that trapped the men, nor would it have been done purposely to cut the men off. However, it shows the confusion and how badly things were managed that day.
WTKTT In reference to the photo the one you posted Joy looked at and says it is not the one in the dropbox that has the 19- any way to pull the other photos out of that dropbox to view?
Reply to Charlie post on November 13, 2016 at 8:53 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT In reference to the photo the one you posted Joy looked at
>> and says it is not the one in the dropbox that has the 19- any way to pull
>> the other photos out of that dropbox to view?
That is the same photograph that got ‘confirmed’ as having the image of the number ’19’ in it back when it was being originally discussed…
———————————————————————————-
** On December 29, 2014 at 5:49 pm, WTKTT replied…
Sonny… just for clarity’s sake… you are talking about THIS photo, right?…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAD-eQ2uss8FqHAT3C8CLCzsa/dec242014weavertop%20%287%29.jpg?dl=0
———————————————————————————–
Some people say they DO see the number ’19’ in that photograph. No question.
Then Joy replied and ‘confirmed’ that photo had the image of the ’19’ in it… but
then she also suggested there was ‘another’ ( better? ) photo of the same thing…
————————————————————————————
** On December 30, 2014 at 3:21 pm, Joy said…
i will try sonny to get the other photos on—my mifi and pc was acting up but you are right there are more pics and one of you sitting with skeeter with the 19 yet this one has the image but not like the other pic-
————————————————————————————
The link ( to the photo ) that was confirmed is the only one I know of.
If there is ANOTHER ‘photo’ to look at… then please post a link to it.
WTKTT I will let Joy when she comes in the house look at the photo–she knows the one since I do not see it in that one. That was one of the photos that night. She is busy painting a dog house we made for some friends that can’t keep their dog in the main house due to rental restraints.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
NOVEMBER 9, 2016 AT 3:52 PM
Real ( actual ) heroes don’t ‘advertise’… or make their own ‘promotional videos’.
That’s called ‘posturing’.
And I say, theoretically what you are saying is true, (and I do find the BS from the Geronimo Hotshots to be troubling) but in reality you are wrong and I don’t want of offer my opinion in support to any hotshot crew in the game today. If it is not on YouTube (and Twitter https://twitter.com/oregondunesnra and Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/OregonDunesNRA/ ) in today’s world…it didn’t (or doesn’t) happen.
I am an expert in this area, just as I am in so many others aspects of life (and I am still waiting for Diane to tell me whether she wants the truth, or for me to be nice before I resume working on my latest MOAP although I have forgotten now exactly what I opining about) especially about a job I worked in…several decades ago.
The reason I am an expert in this area…marketing, is because I experienced inglorius six years on a hotshot crew laboring in obscurity as “a” hotshot crew on a forest who was hardly ever seen and never heard from in the middle of the wilderness.
And conversely…I spent four glorious year working on a hotshot crew basking in the limelight as “the” hotshot crew on a forest who was seen on a daily basis and heard from often from the middle of a city and the state capitol.
And I can tell the second one was better. It costs a lot of money to operate a hotshot crew…hundreds of thousands of dollars in base operating expenses…and money doesn’t grow on trees (inside joke) even tax payer money.
And nothing comes for free, and when it comes to the nut cutting (which it eventually does whether you sell vacuum cleaners door to door or run a hotshot crew) hard work with recognition means a lot…hard work in obscurity means…very little.
After all…if a tree falls in the forest and no one or nothing is there to hear it…does it make any noise?
On a lighter note…I am already really enjoying the Pending Trump Presidency.
Let me see?
If I were Donald Trump (or even Gary Olson) would I like to live in the Penthouse of Trump Tower, with the world as my playground with unlimited time, discretionary money, and freedom of movement?
Or would I like to live “In this Old House” that is part museum and the People’s House that has hundreds of visitors wandering through it on a daily basis where you can’t even open the windows in a world that is as small as a fish bowl with every minute of every day accounted for, where it doesn’t matter how much money you have because you can’t spend any of it, and anywhere from hundreds to hundreds of millions of people are tracking (and I mean literally tracking) you every move?
And I am 70 years old and have spent my entire adult life as a spoiled brat literally doing anything I want.
Hmmmm? I pick…A or number 1, or the first one.
I am in the camp that believe this entire Trump Presidency is a public relations ploy that was intended to boast his value as a brand with free advertising…that went horribly wrong. Trump reminds me of the dog who caught the M-1 Abrams Main Battle Tank…and now he doesn’t know what the fuck to do with it.
I can hardly wait to see how he give the BIGGEST tax cut in history (to the wealthiest Americans) coupled with the BIGGEST domestic spending program in history, without raising the national debt on nothing other than his personality …this is going to good, and very entertaining.
President Trump is going to be the gift that just keeps on giving (assuming the nuclear winter is hyperbole and if it’s not…well).
It is one thing to be obstructionists and bomb throwers and another thing entirely to
GOVERN…now that the Fuckin’ Republicans will soon control the House, the Senate, the Presidency and the Supreme Court.
There won’t be any doubt whose fault it is is the fuckin’ train is run off the tracks…and if he succeeds…we all win. God Bless America…Pass the Ammunition, Amen!
“In dreams the truth is learned that all good works are done in the absence of a caress.”
Leonard Cohen
Born: September 21, 1934.
Died: Yesterday… November 10, 2016.
Maith thú, Leonard. An chuid eile i síocháin.
( Well done, Leonard. Rest in peace. )
For people who aren’t competing for funding, prime assignments, promotions, etc., and not only to survive but to thrive. Mr. Cohen lived in a different world than I do or did.
Oh…and one more.
1. How many of you had ever heard of “hotshots” before 19 of them were killed in a spectacular way on the Yarnell Hill Fire?
2. How many of you had ever heard of “smokejumpers” before the Yarnell Hill Fire?
And now you know that everything you THOUGHT was done by smokejumpers…is actually done by hotshots. You now know that smokejumpers are few in number, and highly specialized. You know that in their role as smokejumpers, which means arriving on a fire by parachute, they go on very small, remote fires that remain very small.
Smokejumpers do lots of other things than go to fires via parachute. for example they go out as miscellaneous overhead, or as crew leaders for crews other than hotshot crews and sometimes they are even “detailed” to be hotshot crew bosses during crew shake ups, and then they may become the crew boss.
Smokejumpers are all highly experienced, qualified, motivated and professional wildland firefighters, but they do not do the heavy lifting as the tip of the spear (so to speak) on campaign fires…hotshots do. You now know they are very expensive to use so they don’t get used that much, work very short seasons (as smokejumpers) and make a lot less money (as smokejumpers) than hotshots do.
In fact…since the explosion in use of helicopters eve since the Vietnam War, smokejumpers would probably be eliminated except the USFS thrives on and values TRADITION above all else. I think they are still needed in Alaska by the BLM (which manages almost all of the interior of Alaska) because the distances are so great, but down in the lower 48…not so much.
And every news reporter is so ignorant, they think (and report) that every crew heading out of fire camp is a hotshot crew but now you know that very few are because you know there are thousands of wildland fire crews but only about 100 hotshot crews.
Why the disparity? I have told you many times on this thread so many of you know, but for all newcomers…it is because hotshots have done great work for about 70 years…in obscurity. As you know…if a hotshot tells someone they are trying to impress in a bar that they are an “elite” widland firefighter, that person always say’s, “Oh…you must be a smokejumper.”
Why does this sad state of affairs exist? Because smokejumpers are…and always have been the biggest braggers and self promoters in the business, plus they have THE book about wildland firefighters all about THEM, which is of course, “.Young Men and Fire”, in addition to the movie, “Red Skies Over Montana,”
And they keep the legend alive and well by giving field reporters looking for stories a ride in a jump planes every year as the fire season is ramping up to show they jumping out the door. It makes a great visual story. Hotshots humping it up the mountain…not so much.
In fact, if it wasn’t for their great press…I think smokejumpers would have already been eliminated because they are so rarely truly needed and cost so much money to maintain. So…don’t tell me bragging and hiding your light under a basket or whatever the fuck that saying is, is the right way to go.
And as I have said many times…it’s just too damn bad I don’t go to bars anymore to try and pick up hot chicks (LOL…unlike how the Woodsman boasted about his many conquests, I never did that) because after the movie “Granite Mountain” out…it is going to get a whole lot easier. In fact…I suspect it has already gotten a whole lot easier just because the event got so much publicity in the first place and all of the books that have already come out.
Advertising is the ONLY way to get your brand noticed and appreciated by the (tax paying) public. Hotshots have been the strong silent types for about 70 relying on word of mouth to get the word out they are really the elite wildland WILDFIRE firefighters (as opposed to little smokes in the middle of nowhere) and the best of the best…but it hasn’t worked.
Whoops forgot one really important point.
In fact…since the explosion in use of helicopters ever since the Vietnam War, smokejumpers would probably be eliminated except the USFS thrives on and values TRADITION above all else. I think they are still needed in Alaska by the BLM (which manages almost all of the interior of Alaska) because the distances are so great, but down in the lower 48…not so much.
And now the widespread and accepted use of HELI-RAPELLING (or fast rope) has made smokejumpers obsolete in even the densest forests. In additon to the fact that helicopters have gotten much faster, cheaper and safer over time.
Here is what THEY need to do. Eliminate the smokejumper program entirely and invest that same amount of money in HELI-RAPPELLING hotshot crews by adding a lot more helicopters (and hotshot crews) to the mix and they would get a lot more bang for the buck!
Naw….even I would like to see smokejumpers endure. There IS something very cool about smokejumpers parachuting in the save the day…even if it is really usually hotshots humping it up the mountain to save the day! I am such a romantic at heart!
And becoming smokejumpers gives something for Ne’er Do Well ex hotshots to aspire to, so…there is always that?
For the record, I was a successful womanizer way before I ever became a professional wildland firefighter…so I’m not sure being a wff ever truly had anything to do with it although it may have enhanced my current natural ability.If you got it you got it. I’ve never had to work hard in order for girls to be attracted to me, it’s a natural gift. What can I say? Other’s mileage may vary.
I will say there is a subset of the population that is attracted to people with vocations that are perceived as ‘dangerous.’ It’s exciting. Who’s your Daddy?
Woodsman
Duly noted Woodsman.
And I just woke up from a nice nap and I have a few more examples to drive my point home…and prove I am RIGHT.
1. The myth of the Silent Warriors really took a hit when by my count no fewer than three (3) Navy SEALS took credit for killing Osama Bin LAAAAAAAADEN! (SNL)
That should have been pretty easy to figure out. If I remember the story right, two SEALS went up the final flight of stairs ad into his room. One took one of his wives to the floor and the other shot Usama center mass several times and at least one in his brain box to make sure he was sent to hell. Two to the chest, one to the head…make sure they are DEAD!
2. How much did RTS’s stock go up on this website once it became known that he is THE famous (or in my book the infamous shirker from the Murdock Basin Fire) Fred S. who is the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history?
3. Not all smoekjumpers are braggarts, you don’t have to be IF your reputation however undeserved proceeds you. You simply show up ans say, “Here I am!”
4. Yes, our thread’s cyborg….who I have affectionately nick named HAL 9000 can labor in the shadows and his work speaks for itself…but hey, how many HAL 9000’s are there in life? Only one I have never met.
5. How did the Green Berets become the Green Berets. Saving the world in French Indochina? No…they became the Green Berets thanks to the WWII draft dodger John Wayne 1968 movie, “The Green Berets.”
You know…One hundred mennnnnnn, will test todayyyyyyyy,, but only oneeeeeeeee,..will wear the Green Berettttttttttt! Put silver wings, on my son’s chest,make him one of American’s best! Or something like that.
6. And don’t even get me started on the Gurka Regiment.
7. And finally, I get another chance to disrespect our new President Elect Donald J. Trump. During the campaign for the most powerful job in the world…if his mouth was moving…he as either lying or bragging and usually both.
And 95 percent of all wildland firefighters voted him into office even though he is going to do his best to gut the FIRE service and privatize it. You all can kiss your benefits goodbye if he is lasts long enough and is successful ..
He is already back peddling on every fucking promise he made to you delusional fools…I have only begun to laugh at you! This going to be more amusing than, than, than, than,….gee….I am at loss for words. Imagine that!
There is an aura that certain men have to attract women. My son Ted was always surrounded by good looking girls. So I have to believe that. Driving a nice Delorian or Corvette also attracts them. Donkey riders don’t get far–but then what kind of woman are you looking for. I advertised for one that could use an outhouse, didn’t mind cooking on a campfire and could kill coacroaches at ten yards by spitting snuff between her teeth. Joy showed up, but I think just to see if I was real. Then we did about 8 months in a cave and plenty time desert camping and walking–Joy the Desert Walker and Yarnell Hiker-top investigator, and carries the two edged sword of truth.
Few ;people could do what she does–WTKTT, and others on this site–go forward despite all the roadblocks she and you here endure. But getting to truth when millions are involved and reputations at stake is not an easy task.
Reply to Charlie post on November 12, 2016 at 8:55 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> …getting to truth when millions are involved and
>> reputations at stake is not an easy task.
No, it’s not… but things worth doing seldom are ( easy ).
Glad to hear from you today, Irish.
Ní Go raibh tú bréag …
go dtí tá sé in am a bheidh le duine éigin ngrá leat …
agus nach féidir leat cheat …
go dtí tá sé in am an bháis a cheat.
May you never lie…
until it’s time to lie with someone you love…
and may you never cheat…
until it’s time to cheat death.
I needed that WTKTT. Just played a couple games of pool at the legion and downed a couple Heineken beers. They don’t have Guiness so I guess Holland is close enough.
Well I have accomplished both those Irish sayings WTKTT posted–and to their fullest. I dont plan on quitting trying to cheat death, nor to stop to lie with someone I love. The Irish Gods have been good to me and I figure the green fields of heaven will be a just reward. At least I will apply for them if I like the heavenly situation.
This old earth has been here close to 4 billion years according to best estimates and they ought to be good since half life of radioactive elements is a given. So the Gods are a hell of a lot older than Methuselah and according to Sumerian tablets the Gods created man then destroyed their creation by flood. Those stories were from 25000 tablets. written a few thousand years before the Bible first started being penned. So someone knew about the flood a long time before the Bible writers knew. Same as the Bible, the texts refer to space craft landing here–so maybe the Irish Gods, Thor, et. al. have technology and did manufacture humans out of monkeys. Some of the human race looks like monkey and some even look like bird heads– When I visited the Roswell Alien Museum it was no problem to see the small lady in charge there was a hybrid of sorts.
Too bad the Christians destroyed and burned all the books in the great Alexandrian Library or we would have had more knowledge–maybe even understood exactly how the Pyramids were made. The Christian Spainards did the same for Mayan and Aztec writings or we might even know more about the Nazca lines and how the hell the stones were transported for such great distances and fitted so perfectly. Both feats can not be accomplished by equipment today so someone had some damn good technology in those ancient times.
I believe the Minotaurs were real since we already screw around with DNA enough to clone sheep and I have even heard have the ability to mix DNA so you could come up with a man with a sheep body or a bull like a Minotaur.
Technology has people living longer than usual and maybe people like Trump and Hillary will be ressurected some time in the future–even Hitler likely since he is most likely buried somewhere that only a few know.
My Dad never bought the idea that Hitler and wife committed suicide. The new series shows some pretty tight evidence that Hitler did escape to Argentina and plenty of witnesses from there say so. So we likely will have some clones like that in the near future with technology advancing as it is..
Well not all smoke jumpers are braggarts . Ted Putnam visited me in the hospital today and I never hear a word like that from him–but he may be an exception. We had a nice talk and informed him of things about the Yarnell Fire.
Probably Joy has informed you already but we have solid evidence of those videos that were retracted where we saw two firefighters using drip torches along the Shrine. So there were burn outs or else backfires being done there. Dr. Anderson tells us that Bob Brandon came to a meeting with him and several other witnesses and said he was one of the people doing the backfires there above the Shrine. We were told he was a Peeples Valley Fireman and when we went to Peeples Valley to talk with the chief there he says he does not know Brandon, not was he a firefighter for Peeples Valley. The videos that Elizabeth reminded us of and coming out of the Shrine area is definitely a Peeples Valley water truck–big letters on the side when you stop the video.
This was good news to us since Joy and i have been poo pooed about a video that had any firemen in the Shrine area. Dr. Anderson would not put out that information if it were not so and he has witnesses that listened to Brandon so it would be hard to retract considering there was also a Peeples Valley Water Truck. The video is retracted but you can see how even Elizabeth puts on snips–something the way videos are used to entertain the public without giving all the facts.
And many thanks from Woodsman, Diane and all the rest who did send prayers. The Irish Gods are still smiling upon me. The copter ride was fine, my arteries by the heart at the stints had blood clots and so I was turning purple, Joy called my daughter and she called 911 so I am alive today again because of those two. Let me tell you once you are down with that type attack it is if you had been stunned with a grenade –even to try to dial 911 would be an effort.
I checked out –maybe the fastest heart patient for 6 heart attacks to get out. Overnight in a hospital is enough, more time would give me another attack. Six attacks, one for every wife I have had and six heart stints. This time they did not add a stent but just streached it out some so the blood flows better. Joy drove me home, bless her heart. I then drove on down to Wickenburg then up to the legion for a couple Heineken beers. I feel fine now, that young doctor was an ace and got to work fast enough to save me. The copter pilots were not too anxious to get me into emergency, filling out forms and such while I was on the gurney, but I was in no condition to protest. I can not tell you the extreme pain that heart attacks give–you just have to have one. They even beat sciatic pain–and I have had that from having a slab nail me to the ground. Joy was a bit late to pick me up out of that wheel chair they make you ride in–she was hugging some people that had just lost loved ones from the same malady.
Maybe the Irish Gods want more truth here at Yarnell. My counselor lady came to the Hospital as well. Her husband is an airborne Ranger from the Vientnam war. He gave me a nice Jesus prayer and I told him that Jesus had once dropped me a bottle of Crown Royal along with a full flask of Crown Royal and after Joy had accidentally broken my Jim Beam. Well I told her who else but Jesus with a Crown would leave me something like that. That is a true story–Joy was with me. So all the prayers worked and thanks for them.
Oddly the same doctor that on Veterans day predicted I would expire by November a year later worked on me again. Well on Veterans Day one year after, I did have this heart attack but am not yet expired. I feel fine and that doctor did a damn good job. What does all this spiritual stuff have to do with a fire? Well look at Joy’s photo with the number 19 over my shoulder that Christmas night she demanded we go up there on the mountain and build a fire to honor the 19. They all do deserve the honors, despite their errors. Their errors were after all human mistakes–but mistakes that they would want known so their fellows would be forewarned against taking unnecessary orders and risks.
Joy deserves all the credit for exposing what she has and for her dogged determination to get through the farce to the truth.
YOUR ALIVE! Praise God!
3. Not all smoekjumpers are braggarts, you don’t have to be IF your reputation however undeserved proceeds you. You simply show up ans say, “Here I am!”
You know how much I respect Dr. Ted Putnam. I was the first one on this thread to write about him and quote him.
But I know his reputation is built in large part by the fact that he is a fomer smokejumper.
And no,,,Dr. Putnam doesn’t have to brag about being a former smokejumper to gain automatic acceptance and respect….many others have already done it for him.
And that is a big reason why both you and I respect him. If he was simply a former engine foreman…well…it would be different. A lot different.
Oh…and one more thing. I am watching “The Third Reich – The Rise.”
I was so fucking stupid and arrogant…I have believed for my entire life it could never happen HERE…but it just did. At least…it has begun here and in almost the same way it began THERE!
On second thought…I don’t have any desire to be tortured to death by steel whips and drills and so I say,
“HEIL TRUMP! HEIL TRUMP! HEIL TRUMP!”
And I would very much like to see the photo with the 19 over your shoulder, I have heard about it many times, but I have never actaully seen it. Can you please post a link to it?
Thanks, Gary
Oh…and one more thing. Is this hiding his “light under a bushel” (I looked it up)?
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html
Complete with photos of Dr. Putnam in his jump suit. Don’t get me wrong…I applaud and mimic what he has done…just don’t tell me Dr. Putnam doesn’t brag.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 12, 2016 at 7:56 pm
>> Gary Olson said ( to Sonny )…
>>
>> And I would very much like to see the photo
>> with the 19 over your shoulder,
>> I have heard about it many times, but I have
>> never actaully seen it.
>> Can you please post a link to it?
>>
>> Thanks, Gary
That ( original ) photograph is still sitting online at the following link.
Look in the upper left corner of the photograph… on the rock face above the campfire…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAD-eQ2uss8FqHAT3C8CLCzsa/dec242014weavertop%20%287%29.jpg?dl=0
A longer ‘Reply’ ( with other links ) is up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-380302
That was my though too Gary. Heil. The nurse that was attending me when Trump came on a TV newscast raised her hand Heil.
You deserve the same respect–your posts have clarified so much for so many–This civilian is grateful for the education you freely give.
Well I woke up above ground–thankful the Irish Gods love me and aren’t dumb enough to kill me for no good reason. Devil beware.
You are amazing…like I have written before on this thread. You are like a Timex watch…you take a lickin’ and just keep on tickin.’
The Irish Gods do love you.
To Charlie,
I agree about Joy deserving all the credit for exposing what happened to the Granite Mountain hotshots and developments around that fire. She has been pure and dedicated in the search for the truth—-and it has required a HUGE amount of work and time to persist and lay the groundwork and I only know a small amount of what she has accomplished.
As I have said before—Joy is the Erin Brockovich of Yarnell! If you and Joy havent seen this movie you might want to view it together.
Diane
Yes, I have wavered many times, but Joy has been constant.
THIS IS THE BIG ONE ELIZABETH. .SANFORD AND SON.
Sonny had massive heartache and is in surgery 😷
Keep him in your prayers…I know I have not read any comments but world please note any comments after the one where I posted the link to EN video was all Sonny using my id name because he said he was blocked. I asked for all comments to be removed and block my id so testing to seems if it got blocked but I am not responsible to comments made 11.10.16 under me name.
Update.
He is almost done with surgery and nurse said he will be in icu so I will go in shortly. I think one person who says they never come here but gets reports…whomever your “camped out” person is PLEASE note this is a public forum that anyone who has been named here is up for discussion and I will do my best to do as requested and avoid placing your name to mine private or public but in the end I know it is hard because I say things without papers to present yet and ONLY YET but in the end you would of been proud to be tied to my name when all data is in a dropbox for all to review and do their own assessments but you drew the line of a side to be on and obvious it is not for unedited raw as it happens and please do not fill in how I am to lead my life. I am not under any tolls …I am the best gal to handle my stuff along with 18 others lives that I have been doing…I can multi task…dont assess me when you are not in my daily at all. Pop in assessments are not always right. I formally am stating world wide…stay out of my corresponding space since you are redundantly making a point I may or may not meet…The meeting yesterday took its toll on Sonny because he asked questions and they answered and it ate at him and I have not read yet what he wrote under my name but I want to ensure anyone who has concerns of coming into my life to then not want to be public but ok private to know I am currently only allowing that for the aclu fella because he did show me the data…anyone else I should be free to interact with and it is all the side line whispers that is not good for Tex or my health. Enough on topic.
Thank you for the update, Joy.
Good to hear that it looks like Sonny has survived the surgery.
Just read the news about Sonny—so sorry to read about this.
So sorry to hear this news about Sonny.
Hoping for a good outcome.
I tried posting update earlier.
Tex is in icu and doing alright. I stepped out a few hours to do my own doctor stuff than heading back right now.
I was really blessed tonight with 16 y.o. Sarah K. From Mayer Dewey as she is 5 minutes taught me how to play my taylor backpack guitar that I wanted Sonny to show me…it was a real soft genuine moment and also met today one of Donut’s friends and it humanized Donut more for me and I was greatful I learned about Donut more….
I want to thank all for the prayers…Glory be to God for Sonny making it through surgery because he has more living to do…
To Gary Olson’s question of do I want the truth—–
I’m not sure if this is an authentic question or a Jack Nickolson statement “you cant handle the truth you want me on that wall” statement and assuming that your comment is in response to my
comments about the elderly folks in Yarnell and your opinion of them.
My answer is yes I want to hear what you feel is the truth regarding the elderly citizens of Yarnell in their predicament of being left to evacuate themselves from the Yarnell fire. Just know up front that I am with Joy on this as she described to you how some of them were bedridden in restraints ,suffering from severe dementia etc unable to move on their own and without access to their caretakers or operational vehicles.
I welcome your respectful comments,
Diane
I will see what I can do.
Gary,
You just inspired a thought about Trump—–what if he could abdicate the presidency like a king as save us all as well as himself from this pain.
Diane
Unfortunately…I don’t think that is an option. President Elect Trump got himself (and the rest of us…even the world) into a potentially deadly Catch 22 with his antics.
The more it looked like he win, the harder he tried to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, which made his supporters love him even more, which made it look like he could win, so he tried harder to lose, but he won instead because of his supporters who are bigots, misogynists, racists, and haters of all ilk, and I assume SOME good people who want to see ultra conservatives on the Supreme Court rather than putting their country first and risking our very existence on this planet in the process.
And now….Mr. Trumps EGO (which barely fits into Trump Tower) has taken over and he would rather destroy the world than go down in history as the first man to abdicate the Presidency…so I am pretty sure we are all going to have to suffer through this.
Although I do have some good news for you. I am not mad at his ignorant, selfish, delusional supporters anymore. They didn’t win the election for him, we now know there aren’t that MANY of those kind of people out there…there are a lot of them, but not enough to carry a national election.
Democrats stayed home instead of going out to vote, the Fuckin’ Republicans didn’t WIN the election, the Fuckin’ Democrats LOST it.
Although I am hoping that when the Fuckin’ Republican controlled Congress will NOT approve his gigantic and unsustainable wild spending plans, he will melt down and they can hose the goo out of the Oval Office. So…keep your fingers crossed.
If not…there’s a meadow on the other side of the canyon, I’ll meet whoever wants to come and we can continue this discussion there. Maybe Eric Marsh will come and we can finally ask him…”What the fuck were you thinking?” Bitch (non-gender specific) slap the bitch (non-gender specific) out of him and then give him a hug and cry with him.
As I sit here since last night in icu watching Sonny’s low vital computer board awaiting for it to normalize I thought of all the 🎁 life gifts 🎁 he has shared with..some so difficult for me to comprehend or be around but he feels the same about me…I had no idea if it cores to gender or lifestyles or combo of stuff…I do know this I thought of Bob Powers niece and wept for a life so short…and well Gary you said it…good pension…do what the hell you want…70…much like Sonny…yet I would love to challenge you and woodsman and wwtktt and john dougherty to meet with some we have because once you do…each of you offer a gift to the data shown and it will take the teams individual skills to move this to the next level. I have a question once you see the data and the first hand interviews that it was not the original fire that caused the end results and there is data on that and the Sair is a orchestrated narrative that current people across the world want to have faith in and want to entrust the team who did it and corner me as a problem because I say there is and even guide where and how to get some data via foias or interviews vs the ones who should be coming to me to work on a solution and if Saturday was handled another way we would not be all here…I even believe people like John Maclean/Holly and EN who have invested alot of energy deserve to know the data 🔥 lives matter!
Sonny is stable.
Joy,
Praying for Sonny. Tell him this lowly wff is forever grateful for him giving a damn about us little guys on the line, as part of the teeth on the cogs of the wheels of the massive wildfire business venture in the U.S. He is a wise man.
You said:
“…once you see the data and the first hand interviews that it was not the original fire that caused the end results and there is data on that …”
What is your confidence level in the data and interviews that this is fact? 25% 50% 90% 100? The reason I ask is because this scenario you speak of would do much to answer questions I have had for a very long time, specifically of fire behavior & the decision making process/risk analysis employed by GM that fateful day.
Thanks and please tell Sonny he’s in my thoughts and prayers!
Woodsman
Grateful and stable and checked out of the Hospital. I shot a few games of pool the very next day from surgery and had a couple beers. Even a couple Irish whiskey shots to thin my blood. I am however taking the Brelinta and looks like that will be till death do I part.
I have been driving Joy around and even took her to her doctor’s appointment. So I am in fine shape–at least for a cowboy.
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 10, 2016 at 1:44 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> The warning siren was inoperable as rats had chewed the wiring — apparently this
>> wasn’t checked on a regular basis – after living in the Tyson desert I know how fast
>> the pack rats can chew into wires.
It wasn’t like no one knew it wasn’t working until they thought about using
it to help warn people to evacuate on June 30, 2013.
It WAS ‘checked on a regular basis’.
It was KNOWN to be ‘broken’… but no one was bothering to fix it.
First it was stolen, then returned, and THEN the rats got to it and no one was bothering to get it ‘fixed’… even though the area had been in ‘Extreme Fire Danger’ for WEEKS prior to the Yarnell tragedy.
Here is just one of the media articles that first mentioned this ‘broken siren’…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Yarnell evacuation flawed and chaotic, experts say – Residents describe harrowing ordeal
Published: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:13 PM
By: Anne Ryman and Sean Holstege
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131116yarnell-fire-evacuations-chaotic-flawed.html
From that article…
————————————————————————-
The Yarnell Fire Department posted evacuation updates on its website. But another more basic means of communication was no longer available.
The community once had an emergency siren, but it hasn’t worked for years. Residents had complained about the noise during tests. The siren was stolen, then returned and then stopped working, after, some say, a rat chewed through the wires. It was never fixed.
Though sirens have gone out of vogue in recent years, they helped in a successful evacuation during a threatening wildfire in Oak Creek Canyon in 2006.
Yarnell had also discontinued its Community Emergency Response Team, a group of trained volunteers who could have helped with the evacuation.
To Yarnell resident Cliff DuPuy, a 48-year-old dispatcher with the Yarnell Fire Department, it seemed like everyone was on their own. The department didn’t ask him to warn people. He said he alerted neighbors on his own.
————————————————————————-
Thoughts from Sonny: Here is some truth from Sonny–not a fire man, one of the best underground miners you will ever meet–not bragging a fact since experience dictates facts. Mining is like football in a way==you are paid according to your abilities and if you are on the top rung in pay then your are the top rung and the best. See, either a miner or not–no in between.
See, these fellows are and have been committing felonies, yet they want to have people that want to observe their actions sent to jail. Ok, what felonies? Well, it was known that GMHS bosses were ;padding the books. It is also known that it is a felony to withhold FIOA’s yet it was no felony to let a lightning strike turn into a killer fire. And is it not a felony to report false information? Will the Governor and the Attorney General allow this? I do not have their minds, but I would think not.
In my way of thinking, if you are an official working for the public, then you indeed are very responsible to be exact and correct in all actions, especially in the honesty department. You might lie to your spouse about your escapades, but when it comes to your work for the public, then it better be straight., Your Job is on the line–and maybe even your career if you skirt the law to benefit yourself.
Sonny, not Joy– The new think— I am a boss, hero, cop, politician, etc. I am beyond reproach, my actions are heroic, even if I lie, distort the truth, or put twenties into panties of the lap dancers (political monies off tax payers). —how can you even question our antics? Well, not so my friend, America is coming back to reality.. Some of you are being exposed for your bull shit. People want simple truth–we do not want to pay for services not rendered.
Response to Yarnell siren issue——
Excuse my emotional response but this is horrifying—Yarnell with such a vulnerable population had no working siren, no volunteers in place to assist citizens, no timely evaluation notices, little to no help from YCSO or Gary Cordes and Blue Ridge was never requested to assist.
Is this correct????????
Unfortunately… the answer is YES.
It is an absolute miracle that no residents of Yarnell or Glen Ilah burned to death on June 30, 2013.
WTKTT,
Thank you for this link. It is my first time reading this information and it is helpful.
There were/are many articles out there that describe what an absolute negligent ‘botch job’ the ‘evacuation’ process was that day. The AZCENTRAL article was the one that had the most ‘detail’ about the known-to-be-broken warning siren.
thank you Elizabeth Nowicki for your recent video post
https://youtu.be/A0wYpyedYj8
interesting part was at 3:10 when the man said “just making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out”
??????????????????
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_-A47xgyIvRC3FoQGv3w4A
I thought Diane you may like to watch the videos so here is her channel
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 10, 2016 at 12:52 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> thank you Elizabeth Nowicki for your recent video post
>>
>> https://youtu.be/A0wYpyedYj8
>>
>> interesting part was at 3:10 when the man said “just making sure idiots
>> aren’t burning themselves out”
>> ??????????????????
That was Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown saying that to Prescott National Forest employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… just after Brown and Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby had pulled up ( in their Polaris Ranger ) to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
That is not a ‘new’ video at the link above.
That is the same ( original ) Aaron Hulburd M2U00264 video that has been previously released.
Starts with OPS2 Paul Musser ( in the white helmet ) talking to Prescott National Forest employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… with Musser telling Yowell “Everything’s going to shit”.
Then it shows ‘Safety Officer’ Tony Sciacca ‘turning around’ in his white-pickup-with-red-stripes in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot and proceeding to head east on Shrine Road.
Continues on to show the Peeples Valley firefighters finally ‘catching up’ ( on foot ) to their Engine, with one of them asking ‘what happened’ ( why they left the Youth Camp without them ) and another FF saying “Sorry… my fault”.
Then it shows OPS2 Paul Musser also ‘turning around’ in his blue-pickup in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot ( just as Tony Sciacca did at the start of the video ). Paul Musser would then head east on Shrine Road and station himself on the side of Highway 89, directly across from where Shrine Road meets Highway 89.
The video continues on and captures SPGS1 Gary Cordes clearly telling TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to ‘send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ and to ‘make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely’.
Ends with Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘pulling up’ to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot and then conversing with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd.
Captures Trueheart Brown telling KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell “Yea… we were just making sure fuckin’ idiots don’t burn themselves out. God DAAAAMN!”
Video ends just 2 minutes before the next one begins… which starts with Air Attack John Burfiend finishing a conversation about where someone wants them to be dropping retardant… and then 13 seconds into that next video is the first EMERGENCY radio call to John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ on the ‘Air To Ground’ channel.
If anything… this link *might* have an ‘enhanced sound track’ versus the original one.
The ‘gain’ seems to have been boosted a little on audio track… and it seems easier now to hear SPGS1 Gary Cordes definitely telling TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to “send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch”, and then Gary Cordes’ reference to “Granite Mountain” immediately after that.
It would seem to me that WTKTT makes it clear that the reference “YEA…WE WERE JUST MAKING SURE FUCKIN’ IDIOTS DON’T BURN THEMSELVES OUT. gOD DAAAAMN.” was to the GMHS crew since they were the only ones left in the area at that time. They must have known that the GMHS crew was coming down in the brush and were worried that they were burning as they dropped down into the canyon. Reference is also made to fire trucks at the Helm’s ranch so apparantly the Helm’s was a priority to protect, one reason the GMHS crew was sent off into a situation that all knowledgeable and experienced wild land fire fighters taken to the area said was an totally against all sensible rules of wild land fire fighting.
Thanks to Elizabeth for those posts on U-Tube. We hope she has more to post since they do remind us of the debacle and help us untangle the cover up and get more to the truth. The truth after all will save future wild land fire fighter lives and millions, perhaps billions in tax payer dollars.
Reply to Charlie post on November 10, 2016 at 2:15 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It would seem to me that WTKTT makes it clear that the
>> reference “YEA…WE WERE JUST MAKING SURE FUCKIN’
>> IDIOTS DON’T BURN THEMSELVES OUT. gOD DAAAAMN.”
>> was to the GMHS crew since they were the only ones left
>> in the area at that time.
No. That is NOT the case.
What Trueheart Brown was describing there was what he and Brian Frisby had just been doing out in the Youth Camp area… where they ‘urging’ the crew that had been working in Harper Canyone to ‘hurry up’ and get OUT of that ‘Youth Camp’ area.
Brown’s comment to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell had nothing to do with Granite Mountain.
See a longer ‘Reply’ about this ( at the following link ) following your other recent comment that made the same assertion.
This ‘Reply’ includes a full ‘transcript’ of that entire ‘conversation’ that Frisby and Brown have with Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell at the end of video M2U00264.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-373899
I also ‘mis-quoted’ the video up above.
Brown did NOT actually say “makin’ sure fuckin idiots…”
I got the “fuckin'” in the wrong place. ( Ok… bring on the JOKES ).
What Brown actually said was… “fuckin’ makin’ sure idiots…”
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> They must have known that the GMHS crew was coming down
>> in the brush and were worried that they were burning as they
>> dropped down into the canyon.
No. That comment from Blue Ridge Hotshots Trueheart Brown to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell had nothing to do with ‘Granite Mountain’.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Reference is also made to fire trucks at the Helm’s ranch
>> so apparantly the Helm’s was a priority to protect,
It remains unclear if SPGS1 Gary Cordes wanted TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel to (quote) “send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch” purely for the reason of ( as is also heard in the video ) ‘making sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely”… or whether Cordes had any ‘protection’ efforts in mind.
Cordes himself is the one who first labelled the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ as ‘bomb-proof ( and told others that it was )… and so it is unlikely he would have felt any need to send any engines out to it for ‘protection’ purposes.
Gary Cordes had never even admitted to ‘giving this order’ to Esquibel, and has also never been ‘aksed’ about it.
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel thought this ‘order’ was important enough that he mentioned it in his own Unit Log ( with the correct timestamp ).
But SPGS1 Gary Cords ( the one giving the order ) not only NEVER mentioned it in HIS ‘Unit Log’… he also NEVER mentioned saying any such thing in his ADOSH interview.
He was either ‘neglecting’ to mention it… or purposely deciding to NOT ‘mention it’ ( in his own Unit Log and ‘interviews’ ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Thanks to Elizabeth for those posts on U-Tube. We hope
>> she has more to post since they do remind us of the debacle
>> and help us untangle the cover up and get more to the truth.
>> The truth after all will save future wild land fire fighter lives
>> and millions, perhaps billions in tax payer dollars.
That is NOT any kind of ‘new video’.
Video M2U00264 has always been part of the additional 20 videos that were finally released when John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA forced US Forestry to finally admit they ALWAYS had these videos.
It was the ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ FOIA request that was sent directly to the ‘Prescott National Forest’ ( and then, of course, forwarded to US Forestry ) that forced those additional 20 videos to finally be ‘released’.
Joy, Elizabeth took the videos off so they are no longer public, I don’t understand that action –I suppose she does not want anyone from this site to see those video’s. But I believe WTKTT will have another way to access those videos for people that visit the site. They are very important to understanding what went down that day.
That wasn’t any kind of ‘NEW’ video… so it doesn’t matter if that link no longer works.
It was just a copy of the original M2U00264 video that is part of the public evidence record.
Here is a PUBLIC copy of the SAME video ( M2U00264 ) in the same place it has always been since it was first released… on Arizona Forestry’s own PUBLIC ‘Youttube’ channel…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75k7o_L6B8&feature=youtu.be
This is sonny, not joy.. Yes I am blocked –funny–This is November–the day many honchos hoped would come and the doctors that are so wise predicted I would be dead. I am smiling–the wise of this world killed 19, while the hillbilly saved two. A man on his death bed is dangerous–he will tell it truthfully.
This is Charlie: Who should we block. I think Joy would be number one since she is on this like a fly on a sugar cube. She is truly dangerous–already knows more about these guys she investigates than they know about themselves. She is dangerous to anyone trying to pretend or play a game. Good lord, this woman has abilities in finding out everything about anyone. But then it is the new world and with her you find that many that speak of wanting to convict others are themselves already committing felonies under the guise of our good protectors. When will Americans realize that they are the best, they do not need bull shit–and some of us are tired of the rhetoric and lies. It is costing too much–lives and money. Right now most are working six months for the government and six months for themselves. They believe in the system that is now beginning to eat them up.
Sonny not Joy: What will Eric tell me when I die? He did not kill my kid, or did he? Those men that died, the young ones, belonged to us all. My son too–he was working to better the country just as the wild land fire fighter. Who the hell dives into the abyss for oil companies but he who wants to benefit himself and provide as well to those of this country? You and I demanded better energy, and I like the wild land fire fighter dropped off into rat holes some 900 ft down and back some miles in tunnels to extract pitchblende ore so we could have Uranium. Of course, I loved mining, having been a miner since age 9 in some way–lighting dynamite fuses and helping my miner Dad muck out. It was in our blood, the Irish Gods programmed our DNA so we could do these mining things, and they prefer gold, but then we worked for Uranium, Tungsten, Copper, Silver, Zinc, and other elements used in this modern society to keep people happy. In a way it is all strange because we were happy living in tents, cooking on campfires and eating wild pigeon with hard tac biscuits.
Putting out a simple lightening strike was a simple though–not something you had to decide if you had jurisdiction for. What the fuck, if your neighbors house is on fire do you need to see if you have jurishdiction? That is funny–where did common sense go to shit.
My daughter is worried. She lives in the big city. Wants me to live close by. Well she is in the millions–see we are proud of our kids. They did have it rough with me and lived in lean twos, lived rough in tents when I was tramp mining and yet lived along the Golf course in a home twice as good as Joy’s cookie cutter box as well. Still she knows the life experiences as living as a free person is the way America was built. Trump and all his millions are not as good as that. Money does not make a person. The Mexican wife I had was wise, put a suit on a donkey and it is still a donkey.,
But do not discount Joy. Who the hell could live with Sonny in a cave for 8 months until we were evicted by the sheriff? Pioneering is not now allowed. It is against the rules, everyone must be in a box of sorts. And if you box is not pretty, it might be burned or you might be shot. No kidding. A rough truck like mine is suspect on the road. Stay with cookie cutter stuff and look like your bona fied bullshitter or else.
Now there is nothing wrong with being clean shaven–I always am and conventional to most degrees. My son Ted was famous for wearing a suit with combat boots. His heart to be a good person and help others was right. So I do cry when I go by what Joy actually instigated as a memorial to the 19 young souls lost because some fool wanted them to try to protect structures. Am I angry that all reason was lost–Yes–when I was there and said lets get the hell out of here –and yet those young men were not told the same.
Hard to believe that even I had some guilt to know that they would go down into that trap–but at times I have said, I am old and wise about the wilds–I have lived them like a city man would know about the streets–and I have said to myself–If only I could have told them like I did Joy–do not go there.
Good to hear from you sonny
Thank you Joy,
I appreciate the videos.
A link to the Geronimo Hotshots 2016 video trailer..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InEFnWwL8mU
Interesting use of words… SHows you the mind set…
22 men , risk their lives, to protect families in harms way and the song “we are heros”…
Sounds like some of the stuff we accused GMIHS thinkpiece of… Being heros, saving families (evacuations as part of their duty), risking their lives…..
and in just about all of the videos you will see sleeves rolled up and no gloves 🙂
Real ( actual ) heroes don’t ‘advertise’… or make their own ‘promotional videos’.
That’s called ‘posturing’.
you doing okay this hour Gary?
just checking in on ya-
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/11/6b/e4/116be4f0d5277cc620c2d4eec5c7673c.jpg
no matter how it ends up…
We have the freedom to be disappointed no matter how you look at it….
and thank you Marti Reed for all your efforts-
You were pure and true in your journey this election-
Gary-
as of 10:50 am today-
your Karen Fann did not get 100% and the people did omit filling in her dot and at this point 667 voters wrote in their own but out of 69.04%- there is 137, 390 registered voters—94,857 votes have been tallied and at this point 49,676 out of a possible 137, 390 (50,343) voted for Karen Fann. In this county 58,573 voted for Trump and 29,492 for Clinton (93,542 voted this area)…John Mccain got 60,47% of the votes-
for Central Yavapai District- 100% votes in- what does it mean—is this for a board or what is it for?
Jeff Wasowicz won 12,746 and in second Matt Zurcher 12,395 then ViciLee Jacobs at 10,609 then Michael Clesceri 10,545
For Groom Creek Fire District David Turbyfill got 128/474 and came in third and Gary Williams came in first with 180 votes and Robert Schulz with 163
appx 17% wanted the judges out
Congrats to Kent and Bri from my area-
Scott Masher the sheriff got 63,270 out of 63,836
13,166 out of 13,410 for Rowle Simmons with 244 write-ins. 13 of 14 precincts reported.
you can also get results since they do not show up online yet by emailing Les Bowen or go to this link —
http://www.yavapai.us/Portals/26/Elections/2016/1108/ENG_NOV_Election_Results_Post.pdf
this was my source.
I got this email today:
mailed-by: yavapai.us
encryption: ycsoaz.gov did not encrypt this message
Good morning,
Unofficial results are available here: http://www.yavapai.us/Portals/26/Elections/2016/1108/ENG_NOV_Election_Results_Post.pdf
They’ll be updated as we continue to tabulate remaining ballots.
—
Les Bowen
Yavapai County Elections
1015 Fair Street, Rm. 228, Prescott, AZ 86305
Tel: 928-771-3250 | Fax: 928-771-3446
Thank you Joy…all very interesting, especially from a distance.
Are you kidding? But…yes…thank you for thinking of me, but I am fine. I am WHITE (Northern European ancestry)…OLD…ANGRY….CHRISTIAN,,,RETIRED…. CONSERVATIVE VALUES…and…I DON’T DEPEND ON OBAMA CARE! I feel like I won!
In addition, I am going to have lots of fun yelling at the TV for the next four years while I watch President Trump;
Build a wall on the Mexican border and make Mexico pay for it.
Ban Muslims from entering the country.
Kill Obama Care…my costs will actually go down, I have been subsidizing Obama Care.
Kill Dodd Franks…I don’t do much banking since I don’t own very much.
Kill TPP. I hadn’t planned on trading with Asian anyway.
Withdraw from NATO or charge them protection money. We got a lot of nukes, nobody will come for us and NATO does cost a lot..
Stock market and futures,. I don’t own any stocks.
Kill Roe v. Wade. I’m not planning on getting an abortion and I hate them.
Engage in sexual acts including a 69 with Putin. I don’t want to watch but they are consenting adults.
Allow and actually encourage Saudi Arabia and Japan to become nuclear powers. They won’t nuke us.
Jail his opponents. He won’t get far enough down to me.
Bring back all of the manufacturing jobs to America. God Bless him, I hope he does.
Deport somewhere between 10 and 12 million UDA’s with a deportation force. Maybe I can come out of retirement and we can get the band back together again. Rock On! And neither me, nor any of my family members (or friends) are UDA’s, what the fuck? Who cares? Of course we know white people will not do most of the jobs THOSE PEOPLE do. And I am not invested in building houses, agriculture, restaurants or anything else.
Stop foreign wars and entanglements. I am VERY against those as well. I am actually a isolationist in my life, I sure can accept that as a foreign policy.
Watch him get sued and deposed as a President for fraud for Trump University. It will he a hoot to watch.
And I am going to get a nude photo of our new first lady and put it in my garage. I hear they didn’t spare any expense on building her tits, but I still think they need to rebuild the eyes…kind of creepy.
The only thing that is going to be hard on me?
WATCHING HIM BREAK THE HEARTS OF EVERY PERSON WHO SUPPORTED HIM BECAUSE HE WILL BREAK ALMOST EVERY PROMISE HE MADE TO THEM…ONE AFTER THE OTHER BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL RIDICULOUS AND NOT BASED ON REALITY.
And in four years…the country will be in a mood to elect Democratic Presidents for the rest of my life and the lives of my children, and grand children after this disastrous experiment. And if he actually succeeds…I win.
How are you doing? Did your candidate win?
.
Oh…and one more things. I live in a deep blue state and as you know…all politics is local with all of the states rights our founding fathers built into the system.
Just like President Obama didn’t change how Texas rolled….President Trump won’t change how Washington rolls.
Very interesting watching Arizona though. That state might be deep blue by the time I move back there?
And watching President Trump is really going to be entertaining….as long as we don’t have a nuclear winter. In which case we are all dead anyway. Oh…and I’m not a woman…so he won’t try to fuck me….I hope.
Oh never mind. President Elect Trump has already gone from chanting “lock her up” and she is “the most corrupt politician to ever run for president” and everything he could think of to say…to complimenting Hillary and congratulating her on running such a great campaign.
That didn’t take very long for him to forget all about those promises. Now all of the Hillary haters are never going to get to see her in prison.. This might not be any fun to watch after all? Bummer.
I have been seeing more style videos like that Rocksteady surfacing—
also more and more hotshot crews with the label ELITE as well-
These hotshots come from an area Sonny and I are are all too familiar with— Apache area—-where dogs CAN roam free with no tag or shots or license and they look content and happy as they come up to you asking for a morsel but if you DO than right behind that is an Indian begging and unemployment is high because for the same reasons in Yarnell and Peeples and Congress ONE LIVES where no jobs are…but to become a hotshot just because IT IS A JOB should not be the only reason…you should COMPREHEND the tactics and roles of your position to fill along with the ones around you.
Now Gary, I did vote with hesitation .
How tempting to think “first lady” to FIRST lady to be Prez but OOPS “wrong” person for me- leave that for Josh Eells— I was not wanting to vote at all but due to my family requesting I did vote for Trump but Trump personally knows HOW I felt when I got notes from him (aka staffers) and I replied-
Now Gary, I want to take you back to June 30, 2013 where there was a person who was in a motorized scooter and his battery was being charged (electric went out) and awaiting his caregiver to do her visits and she no-showed (because YCSO locked her out) (he had no phone service) and he has no ability due to a drunk driver to maneuver around to KNOW there is even a fire blazing outside because he is tied up in bed with restraints to ensure his safety of not falling out. Was he an idiot?
Also the old lady who the locals ensured her safety that weekend because she had severe dementia so she has her drapes drawn and never looked outside because her drapes were drawn because she had lost her husband and she was alone to deal with dementia and did not have health care to address it because she was just a quiet housewife who took care of her husband. is she an idiot?
How about the families or elderly couples who are on a fixed paycheck to paycheck income and mind you it was June 30 and not July 1 which makes a world of difference when you are broke and noone is letting you know there is a shelter to go to or what to do when you do not have the gas to get out. Sonny is an example- sorry Sonny- but that June 30 he was broke…I paid for the meal at the diner that day and I paid for the gas to go to Congress than the McDonalds and out of Wickenburg because Sonny did not want to be there so headed to my father’s home to grab a pillow by Metro center and now Sonny wanted to head to the forest and I was a NO for that due to heat stroke and I was not well and suggested he could and that is when I went to call my husband and John told me of a shelter in Prescott. We arrive and Sonny would not set foot into the shelter just stayed in the car but as I went to the bathroom I started to hear the horrific evacuation stories and then Sonny did too and we ended up going in the prison-like shelter outfit and again he was broke until midnight so we slept over and then I got to witness a neat thing- Sonny taking care of the veterans and disabled the entire time in there—it was a highlight to see that as he wheeled people around and we became the sponge to so many initial stories that never made it to the media and if those people allowed us to make their stories into a book I think it would help people like Gary from making the comments so “general” and not humanized enough.
July 1st rolled around and I had to make a decision to go home and spend my bday with family or stay and do the right thing and be there for those people from the start…tempting to think I am home making warm yummy choc. chip cookies but I have been in this from the get go and when the media talked about FFs dying I never connected to that so I have empathy that Gary you have not yet connected to the people either in Yarnell…it took me being at the June 30 2014 Prescott memorial event when a grandma of the GMHS held me up when my legs began to buckle and Wade Ward really was there for me and he knew the pain—he may of seen or felt it but he was there for me because I was going to pass out and I breathed in and out and I thank that man to this day for helping me…because it was at THAT moment not anytime in the course of 2013 did I connect to the 19 truly…The story of the 19 Yarnell Hill Fire Firefighters is even more difficult because I felt Wade Ward’s pure unedited raw emotions as well that day and how the media had no comprehension of the extensive exhausted raw emotions this loss was—that 2013 to that event I just shared my eyewitness account…but the photo of Kevin W. being so young and I looked at that face and it was at that moment he was the kid on the hill on that yellow bus named freckles I had been seeing…he was the one who was sharing to me along with others…so many loved ones need their PEACE but so do these 19 who were caught in confusion of how they really ended up dying—it was overwhelming as in the corner of my eye I saw other GMHS loved ones I recognized and I was in full force faint mode and I knew I still had loved ones to meet that day and friends of the GMHS and Michael Kodas and Joanna Dodder really helped alot that day and we all went to Jersey Lily’s and it was hard moment. I felt how could I now have the homeowners and GMHS loved ones and friends be in my life that I live so privately and still be private…I had to open my heart to really gathering ALL data and sure Holly Neill and Elizabeth Nowicki have gathered alot of data as well but if we women can purely sit down and share each others data I do believe there is alot to be said— and told.
I think early on CBS national reporter, Carter Evans set the stage with his question on how people like John Dougherty was treated:
“The protocol was, another lookout should have been in place when he left his post. And you’re unsure if that was the case and that’s what you’re investigating.”
“No,” Wade Ward, Prescott Fire Department Public Information Officer, replied. “You’re missing the point.”
“But that’s my question,” Evans insisted, as if his question were more important than the facts.
I do not think the GMHS movie due out would be the same if you just place a tiny role of 1 evacuee versus the pure unedited facts that rolled that weekend because it cores to Saturday not Sunday…if Saturday rolled right- 19 men would be alive today.
go back and listen to early news reports—
https://youtu.be/FGGokLZfurA
it is amazing how much one can think they were hiding and protecting but in reality it was under investigation and it was all so surreal and raw in the start…so I can comprehend how so many see IM or Evans as insensitive or even me for that matter but I am coming at this as a newbie to the world in sharing so I am big enough to state I error but all I want in this is to gather the data…
Joy
,
Thank you for sharing your experiences about the fire with us.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 9, 2016 at 12:46 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I am going to have lots of fun yelling at the TV for the next four
>> years while I watch President Trump;
You won’t be alone.
Almost 100 years ago now… this ‘great and glorious day’ was predicted…
—————————————————————————————
As democracy is perfected, the office of ‘President’ represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
H. L. Mencken – The Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
—————————————————————————————-
Yes, and a man that can only be described (by a high ranking and highly respected Republican the other day) a demagogue and carnival barker. The party that REALLY lost last night…the Republican party.
same fella that said- “War is a good thing because it is honest, it admits the central fact of human nature…. A nation too long at peace becomes a sort of gigantic old maid.” The fella who called marriage “the end of hope” and in a sense maybe it was for the lady he loved was ill and died within five years of their marriage—and in his passion for writing so well left his last days not so—nearly unable to read or write and able to speak only with difficulty due to a stroke which was sad to friends because he was yet ALIVE but spoke as if he was already dead…and he died peacefully as he went to sleep- thank you for the remembrance wwtktt—
Trump–Is he the better choice among two evils? I did not vote in the election because I saw neither one as a worthy presidential candidate. Trump does not understand the Mexican population–they will dig under, cut through and climb over any billion dollar fence. Those people are very ingenious and the mass of them are not criminals as portrayed. Most come here to work and the few drug runners are only operating to feed a multi billion dollar failure at stopping the dope trade. Dolan Springs, AZ has enough doper population and enough of the meth labs popping up out around it that it and a big portion of Arizona around it could be cordoned off much like the military does bases so that the dope smokers, pot heads, etc could go through a gate into a land where no one is arrested for their habit. If you like recreational drugs, it would be far cheaper for the public money to buy tons of dope and haul it in there and let the people that want to dope it up go to the area and do so. In a free America you should have that right–restrict kids from the area of course and allow only the cops and agents that prefer to use dope themselves during their time inside the boundaries. But like wild land fire fighting has been going, continuing to fill jails with dopers and the large police industry involving dope is a huge business that those feeding the congressmen do not want to loose. Let the fires burn, the tax payer is all so willing to listen to bull shit and go ahead with the false information they are being fed, to foot the bill.
Hey, about the illegal immigrants, when I was a cowboy getting $5 a day at the Brock Ranch, the illegal was getting $6 a day–but he was a better cow boy according to Charley Ray. Well that was true, and many of those Mexican cowboys were born on a horse and this one had worked there years. During that time they were doing what Trump wants to do–rounding up illegals and taking them back. This guy was always back in three to five days when they could catch him. Yet with all these jobs the Americans will not do, we do not need an uncontrolled influx of any illegal population. Bracero –green card and legal entry is the only solution.
Now on the Yarnell fire, new posts by Elizabeth N. on U-tube and listed by Joy on this site give more insight into the Yarnell incident. Sounds like when hearing one fellow say that he hoped those Idiots didn’t burn themselves out at about 3:31, he was referring to the GMHS–(they were the only ones left in the area at the time). If so it means that the fire fighters all knew where the GMHS were and what they were doing during the time that Willis reports was a black out. Joy says Willis’s truck was departing that area of the Shrine in that video as well–and we also look at the Peeples Valley water truck leaving that Shrine area in the video. Amazing how much can be gleaned from a few second video clip.
What is missing is the video taken about the same time and likely part of this sequence showing the drip torches being used up the Shrine Road and right in that area as well.
Reply to Charlie post on November 10, 2016 at 1:49 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Now on the Yarnell fire, new posts by Elizabeth N. on U-tube and
>> listed by Joy on this site give more insight into the Yarnell
>> incident.
That is not a ‘new’ video at the link above.
It’s the same M2U00264 video ( shot by Aaron Hulburd ) that was part of the 20 additional videos taken by him and other Prescott National Forest employees ( Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) which were only finally released after an FOIA request from John Dougherty ( of InvestigativeMEDIA ) finally forced US Forestry to release those ‘other’ videos they always had.
The copy of M2U00264 at the link above *may* have a slightly enhanced audio track, versus the original. The one at the link above seems to have the ‘gain’ boosted just slightly on the audio track, making it a little easier to hear things in the background now like SPGS1 Gary Cordes definitely telling TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to ‘send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ and then Cordes’ reference to ‘Granite Mountain’ immediately after that.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Sounds like when hearing one fellow say that he hoped those
>> Idiots didn’t burn themselves out at about 3:31, he was referring
>> to the GMHS.
That is not the case.
The ‘context’ there was that Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown had just exchanged ‘greeting’ with Prescott National Forest employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot… and Truehheart Brown was then simply describing to Yowell what they had JUST been doing ‘back there’ at the Youth Camp. Brown and Frisby had ‘bombed around’ out there in their Polaris Ranger urging the other firefighters who had been working out in Harper Canyon to HURRY and get the hell OUT of THAT area.
Frisby and Brown were totally unaware that the ‘crew’ that was working out there in Harper Canyon had NOT received ANY proper ‘warnings’ from any of the THREE ‘lookouts’ that had been assigned to watch that Harper Canyon area ( one of whom was SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself ).
They were already ‘self-evacuating’, but Frisby and Brown felt they were not moving fast enough and so Frisby and Brown remained out in that ‘Youth Camp’ area ( in their Polaris Ranger ) even after the Blue Ridge vehicles had left that area in order to ‘hurry them up’.
It is those firefighters ( Darby Starr, Bob Brandon, Matt Keehner, others ) who Brown was referring to as (quote) “idiots” when he was talking to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell at the end of video M2U00264.
For reference… here is a TRANSCRIPT of those moments at the end of video M2U00264 when Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown first ‘pull up’ to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot ( in their Polaris Ranger ) and then begin speaking with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and Aaron Hulburd ( the one doing the filming )…
—————————————————————————-
+3:02 ( 1636.25 / 4:36.25 )
(OPS1 Todd Abel – on the radio, replying to SPGS1 Gary Cordes ): Copy… and the wind’s definitely pickin’ up over here on this end… so heads up.
NOTE: The Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV is now ‘arriving’ at the St. Joseph Shrine Parking lot with BR Captain Trueheart Brown driving and BR SUP Brisn Frisby in the passenger seat. They are pulling up to where Aarron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are standing and the next thing we hear is a ‘greeting’ coming FROM the UTV and then KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell responding…
+3:06 ( 1636.29 / 4:36.29 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Hey there ( guy ).
+3:07 ( 1636.30 / 4:36.30 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): (Responding to Brown’s greeting) What time is it? Is it dark, or what?
+3:08 ( 1636.31 / 4:36.31 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): It IS dark ( up here ).
+3:09 ( 1636.32 / 4:36.32 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How ya doin’, guy?
+3:11 ( 1636.34 / 4:36.34 )
(Foreground: Unknown): Yea.
+3:12 ( 1636.35 / 4:36.35 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Fuckin’ makin’ sure idiots aren’t burnin’ themselves out. God DAMN!
+3:14 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): We figured you guys were bringin’ up ( the rear ).
NOTE: The following conversation is taking place underneath what KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd are saying to BR Captain Brown. It appears to be Jason Clawson asking BR SUP Brian Frisby where ‘Jesse Steed’ and GM are since they didn’t see them in the GM buggies as they by moments before this… and Frisby tells him
——————————————————————–
+3:16 ( 1636.39 / 4:36.39 )
(Foreground: Jason Clawson?): ( To Frisby): Where’s Jesse?
We didn’t seem ’em in the buggies.
NOTE: The words ‘in the black’ are clearly heard in Frisby’s response
but the final part of what he says after the word “tryin’ to” seems to get
‘swallowed’ of ‘cut off’. He may have just said “tryin’ to get safe”, or
he may have said just “tryin’ to…” and then didn’t finish his thought…
+3:18 ( 1636.41 / 4:36.41 )
(Foreground: BR SUP Brian Frisby): They’re in the black right now tryin’ to ( get safe?).
—————————————–
+3:17 ( 1636.40 / 4:36.40 )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): (To Brown): So everybody’s out?
+3:18 ( 1636.41 / 4:36.41 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Yeah. We’re the last.
+3:18 ( 1636.41 / 4:36.41 )
(Foreground: Unknown 1): How ya doin, buddy?
+3:19 ( 1636.42 / 4:36.42 )
(Foreground: Unknown 2 – Replying to Unknown 1 ): Good. How ’bout you?
+3:20 ( 1636.45 / 4:36.45 )
(Foreground: Unknown 3?): They might need a…
+3:22 ( 1636.45 / 4:36.45 )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd?): Safety Zone… I guess?
+3:23 ( 1636.46 / 4:36.46 )
(Foreground: Unknown 2): Yup.
+3:25 ( 1636.48 / 4:36.48 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How long ya been here? Days?
+3:27 ( 1636.50 / 4:36.50 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Nah… we just got here this mornin’
+3:29 ( 1636.52 / 4:36.52 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Holy shit.
+3:30 ( 1636.53 / 4:36.53 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): ( Laughing ) Yeah.
+3:31 ( 1636.54 / 4:36.54 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( Laughs )
+3:32 ( 1636.55 / 4:36.55 )
(Foreground: Unknown): …(How?) Granite got here this mornin’?
+3:36 ( 1636.59 / 4:36.59 )
(Foreground: Unknown): (Go for it?) (Go forward?)
+3:37 ( 1637.00 / 4:37.00 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): All the way back in ( VIDEO ENDS )
NOTE: Video M2U00264 ENDS abruptly here just after the word ‘in’.
—————————————————————————-
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> If so it means that the fire fighters all knew where the GMHS
>> were and what they were doing during the time that
>> Willis reports was a black out.
Based on the ‘conversation’ captured in the M2U00264… where there WAS some ‘discussion’ of ‘Granite Mountain’ taking place ( just minutes before the emergency radio traffic would appear )… it seems that Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown did NOT have any kind of ‘definite’ idea where Granite Mountain was, or where they were ‘headed’… or ‘why’.
All they ( Frisby and Brown ) seemed to know was just some vague idea about them being ‘in the black’ and ( perhaps ) ‘looking for a safety zone’.
There is NOTHING in that conversation whereby Frisby or Brown are heard telling Clawson, Yowell and Hulburd that Granite Mountain was ‘headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch’. If they had known that for sure… they most likely would have just said that and we would hear them say it in the video.
Apparently… Frisby and Brown still had no idea there even WAS this place called the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’, or that SPGS1 Gary Cordes had told Eric Marsh is was their ‘Safety Zone’ that morning before they headed out to the anchor point.
That still remains one of the big ‘fuck ups’ that day.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots did NOT receive the same ‘briefing’ ( or even the same information ) that day that Granite Mountain received… even though the Blue Ridge Hotshots would end up working the other end of the same ‘assignment’… and in the same general ‘area’ that day.
One Hotshot crew ( Granite Mountain ) was told ( by Gary Cordes ) to consider the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ their ‘pre-determined Safety Zone’ that day… while the SECOND ‘Hotshot crew’ sent to work the same general area was NOT ‘told that’… or even made aware that this place called ‘The Boulder Springs Ranch’ even existed.
All that being said…
There is also NO QUESTION, based on what we hear SPGS1 Gary Cordes telling TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel in the M2U00264 video, that Cordes KNEW exactly where Granite Mountain was ‘headed’ that afternoon. It was the same place HE had TOLD them was their ‘pre-determined Safety Zone’ when HE ‘briefed’ them that morning.
How many OTHERS knew EXACTLY where Granite Mountain was going… ( and exactly WHY? ) remains one of the ongoing ‘mysteries’ surrounding this “Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefightng”.
There are any NUMBER of as-yet-to-be-identified ‘people’ hear CONVERSING directly with Granite Mountain ( in both the 4:13 PM and the 4:27 PM timeframes ) who seemed perfectly aware of what Granite Mountain was DOING and WHERE they were headed AFTER leaving the ‘safe black’.
But after two official ‘investigations’… THREE for-profit books… and now ONE for-profit MOVIE… ALL of those ‘other people’ still haven’t been ‘identified’.
That fact alone ( that these other ‘people’ have NOT even been ‘identified’ yet ) remains ‘astounding’.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Joy says Willis’s truck was departing that area of the Shrine
>> in that video as well–and we also look at the Peeples Valley
>> water truck leaving that Shrine area in the video. Amazing how
>> much can be gleaned from a few second video clip.
Darrell Willis was NOT in the ‘Shrine Road’ area when video M2U00264 was shot by Aaron Hulburd. Willis was still on the NORTH end of the fire and would not even begin to ‘drive down’ to the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’ until after the deployment radio traffic.
There is no evidence that Darrell Willis ever went down ‘Shrine Road’ at any time either that day or the day before.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> What is missing is the video taken about the same time
>> and likely part of this sequence showing the drip torches
>> being used up the Shrine Road and right in that area as well.
Nor would there be any such ‘footage’ in video M2U00264, or in any other video taken ‘about the same time’.
Keyword: TIME
Video M2U00264 ends just TWO minutes before the first EMERGENCY radio call would be heard on the Air-To-Ground channel coming from Jesse Steed, out in the blind-box-canyon.
At the time video M2U00264 was being ‘shot’ by Aaron Hulburd… the fire was ALREADY ‘arriving’ at the mouth of the blind-box-canyon and the Granite Mountain Hotshots only had a few minutes left to live.
Cancel looking at those videos–Norweci immediately restricted them once Joy posted the links. Ok, but I think that WTKTT or someone else will give a link since they are available. It reminds me of when we had seen the back burns or burn outs going on with drip torches on the westward side of the Shrine Road in a video likely part of the redacted videos we see such as Elizabeth had posted that the burn out part and men with drip torches was suddenly removed from the U-tube selections. This rediculous redactions of video when people might get some clarity is hopefully something that the new administration under Trump will address. He was not happy about Hillary hiding her involvement in her emails and how she eliminated the evidence that would convict her, so perhaps the public will be able to get FOIA information wthout the hassel that I have seen Joy endure.
She has been delayed, had the deputy sheriff called on her, asked rediculous prices ($250 for a few redacted pages), been questioned as to why she wants the information, been told she is out of district and has no business asking for public records out of her district to missed appointments with officials who were to provide her with public information–and even the Attorney General of Arizona did not know the full statutes on ability for citizens to know what their public officials, firemen, police, etc. are doing and reported actions. Only after Joy told them she was about to file a case did they start replying and now since she knew the law they did not, she has been getting letters of apology. See they can be fined for refusing to give information to the public who requests it. It can be also a felony tacked to their name for those refusals and rightly so since this public information is essential to keeping our public officials on the straight and narrow.
Reply to Charlie post on November 10, 2016 at 3:27 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Cancel looking at those videos–Norweci immediately
>> restricted them once Joy posted the links. Ok, but I think
>> that WTKTT or someone else will give a link since they
>> are available.
They are all still right here… where they were originally ‘published’ by Arizona Forestry in November of 2014…
https://forestryandfire.az.gov/New-Video-Clips
M2U00264 is the one that captures SPGS1 Gary Cordes telling TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel to ‘send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ and then also instructing Esquibel to ‘make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely’.
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> This rediculous redactions of video when people might get
>> some clarity is hopefully something that the new administration
>> under Trump will address.
You are kiddng, right?
The ‘upcoming’ ‘new administration’ could possibly be such a massive assault on the Constitution and its Amendments ( and, indeed, all civil rights and freedoms ) that this thing known as the “Freedom of Information Act” could, itself, become a thing of the past.
If you have any FOIA’s to make… I would make them quickly.
In a short amount of time… you might not be able to make them at all, anymore.
WTKTT has a point there and I forsee martial law as a given and the public will love it because Trump will convince them it is for their safety and protection. Protestors will likely find themselves in a barbed wire compound similar to how the Jews were kept. Maybe the slop will be a bit better, but you can bet the treatment won’t be much better. Arapaio proved that with his tent camps in 120 degree conditions. Most of those people were traffic offenders–you can’t pay the exorbitant fines and you go to that kind of prison camp. Dogs kept in the same conditions would get you some humane society visits and some stiff fines. Maybe the new sheriff will be more humane.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
NOVEMBER 8, 2016 AT 10:59 AM
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 8, 2016 at 8:36 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> So it ultimately was the duty of the sherrif’s dept
>> to evacuate Yarnell citizens?
Yes… but they ( YCSO employees ) were ( as is usually the case ) ‘depending’ on the people running the fire ( Arizona Forestry employees ) to tell them WHEN it should happen.
At 12:00 PM ( NOON ) that day… ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) took over as ‘Air Attack’ for the morning ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ), who needed to go and refuel.
Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark testified to ADOSH that even on their ‘first pass’ around the fire shortly after arriving… THEY could ‘see’ that the fire was GOING to go into the Yarnell area THAT day… during THAT ‘burn cycle’.
There was ‘no doubt’ in their minds… given the ‘current fire behavior’ they were witnessing from the air, the terrain and fuel loads, and the fact that these men were also perfectly aware of the ‘weather predictions’ for later that afternoon.
They were so sure of their ‘conclusions’… that is the reason they began laying that massive ( and expensive ) retardant line all the way west-to-east across that middle bowl. They felt someone had to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell from what was GOING to happen later that day.
They passed this ‘report/prediction’ on directly to the newly-arrived ‘Division Z’ person ( Rance Marquez )… but anyone listening to the popular ‘Air to Ground’ channel would have heard the same report.
This ‘report/prediction’ about what was GOING to happen later that day from these professionals in Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ SHOULD have caused an ‘evacuation’ to begin on that south end of the fire… but it did not.
‘Fire command’ just continued to rely solely on these arbitrary ‘trigger points’ that had been chosen by SPGS1 Gary Cordes… which ( as we all know ) eventually turned out to be woefully inadequate and did not allow the TIME for a ‘proper’, orderly evacuation of Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
And I say, yes, this is what I said but with more detail. I don’t think however…it is ENOUGH detail now that we are delving into a subject that has obviously been on my mind for some time.
I would like to know the following given the fact that there were thousands of citizens in Yarnell and the surrounding area who were apparently waiting for someone to tell them to LEAVE.
FYI…I don’t EVER depend on someone else for my, or my families security and safety IF there are things I can do myself to improve our odds.
It is antithetical to me to wait for someone else to tell me when I need to take steps to save my family or myself. I mean…how long are you going to stay in your cabin when the ship is listing at a serious angle and some asshole on the loudspeaker is telling you everything is OK and to remain in your cabin. How many times have we seen that on the news with disastrous and very deadly results.
I could go on and on, how about if there is smoke in a theater, are you going to wait for someone else to tell you to evacuate before you start moving towards the exists, how about if you hear gunshots down the mall? Stand there or keep shopping or find the nearest exit? How about see fire in a nightclub or an active shooter starts? Are you going to wait for someone else to save you?
And yes…I am old, I have numerous physical issues…so I am NOT going to wait as long as someone who is in excellent physical shape or as long as I once would have. A man had to know his limitations (Dirty Harry) and act accordingly.
You may not agree with how I phrased it…but I am right. Everyone needs to understand they need to take personal responsibility for their own survival…the authorities are there to come and clean up the mess…not save you. There are too many people who need saved, especially in a natural disaster, and not any near enough authorities go go around.
1. Exactly how many YCSO deputies were on standby to evacuate thousands of citizens once the trigger points had been met?
2. What was the highest command officer (merely a deputy, a sergeant, a lieutenant?) on standby working with the Yarnell Hill Fire Team?
3. How many deputies were going to be needed to evacuate that entire area?
4. How many deputies were on duty that day?
5. Were any deputies called in from other substations or the main office to Yarnell or told to be on standby to move towards Yarnell? If not…why not?
6. Did the YCSO have an evacuation plan? If so…what was it? If not…why not?
7. Was the sheriff or the under sheriff aware of what was going on and what the needs were likely to be? If so…what were their instructions to their command staff? If not…why not? If not them…was a captain or a lieutenant working on the pending evacuation? If was not a question of if…it was a question of when.
8. Was the YCSO Public Affairs Officer in the loop? If so…what steps did they take to prepare the public, what alerts did they put out to the news media outlets? If they did nothing…why not?
9. Was there any effort made by the YCSO to alert the thousands of citizens in the area of the pending evacuation order? What did they do? Did they go door to door? Drive down the streets with their PA system alerting people?
10. Did they request additional manpower and assistance from the firefighters…many who were available and more than willing to help…they just needed someone to give them instructions? If not…why not?
11. Were additional resources called up pending the evacuation order from partner agencies? Other sheriff’s offices, the USFS LEO’S, BLM LEO’s, Prescott PD, how about Maricopa County, they have hundreds of deputies on the south end of the fire? If not…why not?
12. Were YCSO deputies called in from other shifts…days off, did they alert additional jail staff at their primary facility in Camp Verde to start moving that way. If not…why not?
13. Did they pre-arrange for any transportation such as buses for those who did not have transportation, or were unable to drive, or who old cars wouldn’t start? If not…why not?
14. Was the Red Cross notified to begin preparing to receive evacuees? If not…why not? Did they arrange for the facilitates that would be needed? If not…why not?
15. Did they notify the animal control people to expect an influx of animals…old people probably wouldn’t leave without their animals? You would have to kill me to get me to leave our dogs. Was the SPCA notified to alert their volunteers to be ready to help with the animals? If not…why not?
16. How about larger animals…horses? If not…why not.
I am sure I can think of some more things I would like to know, but I will wait until I get the answers to these questions before I bother typing up anymore of them.
Here are a couple of more good one.
17, Did the YCSO notify the area hospitals, (veterans Yavapai Regional) that elderly people with medical issues may be coming their way in large numbers with injuries, or just their normal elderly medical needs so they can dust off their disaster plan, call in extra staff, put people on notice. If not…why not?
18. Did the YCSO notify local ambualnces servies they may be needed to move people who were at home, but on hospice or incapacitated in some other way and in need of guerneys and EMT to move them.
OR WAS THERE AS I SUSPECT…JUST ONE DUMB ASS YCSO DEPUTY OR MAYBE A SERGEANT AND ONE OTHER DEPUTY, JUST STANDING AROUND WITHE THEIR HEADS OF THEIR ASSES WAITING FOR THOSE STUPID SHITS RUNNING FROM THE FIRE…NOT RUNNING THE FIRE…TO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO?
Here is one I really want to know the anser to.
Is there a reverse 911 for that area. If so…were did anyone activate it? If not…why not? If there isn’t one, what has been done since the fire to GET ONE?
And here’s another one.
How about the emergency broadcasting alert on TV…could they have activated that? If they could have…did they? If not…why not?
I hope I don’t do this all night while watching the election results…but I might, if I can’t turn off my brain.
Yep…here’s one more.
Given the magnitude of the impending disaster, and the huge numbers of people who were going to need to be evacuated, did notify the governor’s office to put their Emergency Command Center on high alert? Call up the National Guard…or at least put them on standby?
There is a huge National Guard facility just outside of Prescott. I spent a lot of nights sleeping in National Guard Facilities. And they have big trucks, drivers, cots, bedding etc. They are a resource that should have either been activated, which is what I would have done, or at least put on an alert…IF enough other resources were available and moving that way.
Or did Sheriff Scott Mascher and his entire command staff just have their heads up their asses and keep them there for the entire fucking biggest natural disaster that has ever befallen Yavapai County? That is my bet. Any takers?
WTKTT,
These questions are helpful.
Thank you
there is a petition going around Diane
Investigate criminal behavior in the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors.
http://www.standunited.org/petition/investigate-criminal-behavior-in-the-yavapai-county-board-of-supervisors
from article:
Yavapai County in Arizona has been forced to endure a Board of Supervisors that on multiple occasions have broken Arizona state law. These elected officials have held multiple closed door meetings in which citizens were barred from entry. During these meetings actions were taken that were not for the benefit of the citizens of Yavapai County but for the supervisors friends/family and several had nepotistic consequences. This petition is in order to get as many possible signatures as possible to ensure that the BOS in Yavapai County is held responsible for their actions and justice is served. Local government must be held responsible for their activities as they are representatives of the people. When our leadership is corrupt and shows disdain for the very people they were elected by, action must be taken.
was going around….not is
Yes!
Ok, so Joy and I spent an hour and a half at the Peeples Valley Fire Dept. just a while ago. She did get some FOIA material for the Tenderfoot fire but nothing for the Yarnell Fire. She was informed that the FS took those records and she would need to go there to get them.
We were informed that the reason Yarnell Fire Department did not take care of a simple lightening strike was because it was out of their jurisdiction. Also it was said that had they had anything to do with someone going to the fire edge as we did they would have went straight to jail. So if Sonny had taken care of that lightening strike as I did with my Dad as a teen, more in a worse situation and steeper terrain and longer distance on foot with picks and shovels, then I would be at the cross bar hotel despite this being in the most extreme fire conditions, on State land and apt to cause maximum destruction. Well it did, half the town of Yarnell and 19 lives.
It is obvious that the truth is going to be continued to be hum-hawed.
But we did learn much. Wild land fire fighting according to that chief is a completely different animal to structure fighting. If you are a wild land fire fighter, your expertise and tools are not much help to a structure and leave that to the structure fighters.
Here we have a case of skirting common sense–something the GMHS did. Fortunately I was on the mountain with Joy that day and when she left that early morning at 3:30 am to get to the fire edge, I had no inclination to go except I could not see her there alone.
Well, I do now believe we need some retired experienced and notable fire men, and even some citizens that have wild land experience to be close by to these fires. This is America and if you want to risk your life as I did in being an underground miner (most of my life) then so be it. This way you can see things as I did that terrible day when I was looking at an inferno committed to those that do not escape purgatory. When you are looking at hell itself, you do not run toward it, especially down the god awful steep slope into a box canyon–You instead run to the opposite way and as the Peeples Valley firemen know and said–the west side of the Weavers where little vegetation exists.
So I can see that common sense was and is disregarded in too many instances. Here it was murder, because I returned to the place they went down to retrieve Joy, despite her adamant idea to go down–simply because I knew better and thought I would be a murderer to allow her to do so. I am a slow thinker, but I did not want Joy to die, no more than I wanted those men to die.
So who did kill the men? Was it the lame asses of Yarnell that would not go up and take care of a lightening strike or was it Eric who demanded they go down into that canyon? Something is very wrong in this picture–we were ahead of them 45-an hour or so. That fire by then had escalated to higher proportions than we were seeing and even out of sight of it on the west side I was urging Joy by pointing to helicopters saying they are already taking out bodies–water bags did look like body bags.
It is so clear that if the truth does not surface, men will continue to be sacrificed because the so called fire gods, really tin gods, will look like the fool in Wizard of Oz–except these calls killed 19.
Who is at fault and there is fault–same as if I had left Joy to die. Was it those lame asses that did not take care of a simple lightening strike. Was it Eric Marsh who demanded them to go into that trap? Was it his bosses that wanted the Boulder Ranch structures protected? The truth needs to surface to save future fire fighter lives and billions in tax dollars.
Sonny…what the HELL???? use your own name please.
this is Joy…something is UP…Sonny is BLOCKED from using AGAIN his email and Charlie—so he posted under my name to see if I was blocked—I was not…
It’s the Russians.
Now that the election is over, and they were able to influence it with their ‘hacking’… they are just ‘testing the waters’ to see what else is possible.
I can send you the YCSO FOIA form
see how fast they get back to you—
Make sure to have an incident number because they do not answer questions just provide public records that you can name the incident number-
No thank you. I am a kibitzer…not an active participant in local politics. I just don’t care that much.
I don’t live in Arizonaistan, much less Yavapai County…and I never will again. At least never again in Yavapai County. Coconino County…someday? I hope so.
My interest does not go beyond the last fire, the next fire, or some other fire that may effect wildland firefighters..
Coconino County is a nice spot-
Actually Joy…I should have said I am an armchair quarterback or was it Monday morning quarterback? I don’t know if you are a chess player or not, but I am…so I am a kibitzer?
And I am pretty sure you could run circles around me when it comes to survival in the back country, although I did have a lot of practice for 3 decades.
BUT…if Hillary wins, everything is going to be OK more or less, even if you don’t like her and there is a lot to dislike. And if The Donald wins, there will be no escaping the nuclear winter for anyone…so I am just going to bend over and kiss my ass goodbye.
♔
Gary said: “run circles around me when it comes to survival in the back country”…hope I don’t run circles like I type
nuclear winter…what about our fathers before us…and Battle of Iwo Jima and how that is working its way our way anyways…That is what these people on Storm King and Battlement Creek and YHF and etc have to realize WHAT THEY DID AND HID LONG AGO works its way to the ocean’s surface eventually right here in America…that is why we have to be MINDFUL to our actions even if it gets a nice pension or crazy out of this world vacation spots most cannot ever go and see- we need to do right by one another and not focus to the dollar
gary said- kibitzer
MY REPLY-
your comments are welcomed—we live in a Free America last I knew—
I can get all yoda Yiddish too— OY VEY…A BI GEZUNT.
A tserissen gemit iz shver tsum hailen. A kind’s treren reissen himlen..
Tu mir a toiveh.
A leben ahf dir!
Sonny again– Nuke winter sounds like fire fighting. Might not be so bad.
I’m wondering if forestry employees and ycso were fully expecting Granite Mountain to assist with evacuations of the Yarnell citizens so didnt make their own evacuation plans leaving it to them (Granite Mountain) and then were totally unprepared to undertake this job.
I doubt it very much.
If YCSO needed any ‘Hotshots’ to do anything to ‘help with evacuations’… the Blue Ridge Hotshots were already right there, near Yarnell, and, after they exited the Youth Camp area, they were completely ‘available’ for that… Crew Carriers included ( each one able to transport 10 people ).
There is no record of even the in-town Blue Ridge Hotshots ever even being ‘asked’ to do anything regarding ‘evacuations’.
Whatever others might have even *thought* the Granite Mountain Hotshots were ‘needed’ for… it’s not likely it had AN”YTHING to do with ‘evacuations’.
How are guys/gals with nothing but hardhats and hand tools even *supposed* to ‘assist with evacuations’… other than ( perhaps ) knocking on doors and just telling people they need to leave ( and then becoming, themselves, just even more people that need to be ‘transported’ out of the area somehow ).
It is an absolute miracle there were no ( recorded ) civilians deaths that day.
Even the ‘warning siren’ at the Yarnell Fire Station was never used because it was totally broken. Rats had chewed on the wiring and Yarnell Fire Chief Koile hadn’t bothered to have it repaired.
The warning siren was inoperable as rats had chewed the wiring—apparently this wasn’t checked on a regular basis–after living in the Tyson desert I know how fast the pack rats can chew into wires.
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 10, 2016 at 1:44 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> The warning siren was inoperable as rats had chewed the wiring — apparently this
>> wasn’t checked on a regular basis – after living in the Tyson desert I know how fast
>> the pack rats can chew into wires.
It wasn’t like no one knew it wasn’t working until they thought about using
it to help warn people to evacuate on June 30, 2013.
It WAS ‘checked on a regular basis’.
It was KNOWN to be ‘broken’… and no one was bothering to fix it.
First it was stolen, then returned, and THEN the rats got to it and no one was bothering to get it ‘fixed’… even though the area had been in ‘Extreme Fire Danger’ for WEEKS prior to the Yarnell tragedy.
Here is just one of the media articles that first mentioned this ‘broken siren’…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Yarnell evacuation flawed and chaotic, experts say – Residents describe harrowing ordeal
Published: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:13 PM
By: Anne Ryman and Sean Holstege
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131116yarnell-fire-evacuations-chaotic-flawed.html
From that article…
————————————————————————-
The Yarnell Fire Department posted evacuation updates on its website. But another more basic means of communication was no longer available.
The community once had an emergency siren, but it hasn’t worked for years. Residents had complained about the noise during tests. The siren was stolen, then returned and then stopped working, after, some say, a rat chewed through the wires. It was never fixed.
Though sirens have gone out of vogue in recent years, they helped in a successful evacuation during a threatening wildfire in Oak Creek Canyon in 2006.
Yarnell had also discontinued its Community Emergency Response Team, a group of trained volunteers who could have helped with the evacuation.
To Yarnell resident Cliff DuPuy, a 48-year-old dispatcher with the Yarnell Fire Department, it seemed like everyone was on their own. The department didn’t ask him to warn people. He said he alerted neighbors on his own.
————————————————————————-
To show you how slow government is to react, there have been numerous injuries associated with the new style of gas caps on Stihl products..
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/11/04/another-firefighter-burned-by-chain-saw-fuel-geyser/#comments
YET, the problem has been identified and the tool is still in use.. You would think a big buyer, like state and federal FS would be able to tell stihl to provide a solution asap free of charge… If they don’t, write them off as unsafe tools and replace them with safe ones…
It just goes to show how government works.. Identify the problem, pretend you are doing something about it and then just send out bulletins telling everybody to “not do something” or they could be hurt…
Fix the problem right away… Don’t beat around the bush..
No different than the use of fire shelters or fire entrapments, don’t prevent them from happening, just tell everyone how not to do something..
Diane lomas says
NOVEMBER 7, 2016 AT 8:23 AM
Gary corded accepted an award for saving people in Yarnell–wouldn’t that go against Arizona Forestry’s argument that he shouldn’t have been helping or ordering citizens in Yarnell to get out of danger?
I know WTKTT and others will disagree with this position….but I think that there is a big difference between someone helping because they could…as opposed to someone being mandated to help and face punitive actions for not helping as much, or as well, as everythone thinks they should or could have.
If someone REALLY pushes that point…government agencies are capable of putting it in writing that no wildland firefighting employee shall help any citizen during an emergency evacuation regardless of the circumstances and if they do, they will face disciplinary action up and and including termination.
If…anyone really wants to go there because that is the ultimate answer. The ultimate answer is never going to be that wildland firefighters MUST help evacuate citizens to everyone’s satisfaction or face sanctions and put the tax payers on the hook for anything that could possibly go wrong based on everyone’s subjective opinions.
I am working on the answer to one of your other questions, but it is morphing into a MOAP, a Mother Of All Posts. But here is the really short answer. It is the job of firefighters to fight fire…it is the job of local law enforcement to take the responsibility to evacuate citizens with the advice of the Incident Commander and/or the local Unified Command..
If anyone wants someone to blame for the botched evacuation of Yarnell…call Yavapai County Sherriff Scott Mascher at (928) 771-3260 and tell your problem. Sheriff Mascher and his office have dodged this particular bullet for far too long.
http://www.ycsoaz.gov/
Oh…and one more thing. You can add that bullet to a really long and serious list of other bullets that dumb ass Mickey Mouse amateur sheriff’s office dodged (well, that really does it, now I can’t move back to Prescott…Everybody’s Home Town or even other parts of Yavapai County) as well. Bummer.
For example;
* Botched crime scene preservation
* Botched evidence collection
* Botched death investigation
* And Failure To Do What’s Right
You see Diane…it’s like this. Nobody, and I mean nobody in that in-bred hillbilly county wants, or is able to challenge Sheriff Scott Mascher…which is NOT an uncommon malady in all counties in Arizona and almost everywhere else..
You see…it’s like this, thanks to our founding fathers over dependence on following Jolly Ole England’s lead…Sheriff Mascher is the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in Yavapai County and nobody wants to poke that hornets nest with a stick.
I guess unless they live a REALLY long way from there because he only answers to the voters of Yavapia County and once Arizona sheriff’s, like almost all other sheriff’s, get into office thanks to their party’s strangle hold on the local election process (see Sheriff Joe Arpaio) they are for all practical intents and purposes…elected Sheriff For Life.
I mean…another Fuckin’ Republican would ever be allowed to challenge him in the electoral process and you don’t think a Fuckin’ Democrat would ever have a chance to win an election in Yavapia County do you? And I honestly don’t know what party affiliation Sherriff Mascher has, but I will bet you he’s not a democrat.
Although I was probably already on Sheriff’s Mascher shit list anyway since I played a key role (which included testifying in federal court) in helping to put his brother (who was a sergeant in the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office) in federal prison. I keep sayin’ I had a long and eventful career. So…
Oh…and one more thing. I was the only subject matter expert to testify in federal court that Sheriff’s Mascher’s brother (who was a sergeant with the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office) and his accomplice (who was also a deputy with YCSO) were in possession of unregistered fully automatic weapons (assault rifles) based on my examination of them during the execution of a federal search warrant. I was, and still am…a gun queer. Gee…I hope that’s not a homophobic statement.
OK…because I am obviously on a roll today…here’s another short answer to your question because it’s surprise…raining outside..
“Wildland firefighters are neither trained nor authorized to engage in evacuating civilians.”
And if you think that is no small matter, I can assure you it is. I have often said on this thread that under stress…everyone reverts to their training.
And if you have never been trained on how to evacuate civilians, give it a shot for the very first time under a towering pyroclasitic cloud of ash, smoke, and fire while in front of a firestorm of Biblical proportions and you might find out it’s not as easy as it sounds.
I think the the firefighters did more than should be expected of them.
“HEY…Dumb Asses…Heads Up…WE have been ordered to evacuate this area….MAYBE, just MAYBE…if professional wlldland firefighters have been ordered to di di mau this area most ricky tick MF’s….maybe you should too! Or at least get ready for it, but I am NOT authorized to order you to evacuate because I am a FUCKIN’ GRUNT…a worker bee,,,get it! And furthermore, those stupid fucks at the CP are obviously asleep at the switch , how about you take some personal responsibility for your own survival! How in God’s name have stayed alive this long?”
If I keep this up, I won’t have to write my MOAP, it will already be done in dribs and drabs, which is just one of my specialties because I am easily distr…oh look, there goes a white car.
OK…just one more point. I would never have stuck my neck in that noose and testified against Sheriff’s Mascher’s brother and the other YSCO deputy except I was living and working in Albuquerque New Mexico at the time.
I was only on loan to Arizona and I didn’t have any plans to move back to the Grand Canyon State. I’m might be crazy…but I’m not stupid.
But as Gandalf once said, “Dan na-bant i idhren ú-‘âr i gened i-mithid bain (.For even the very wise cannot see all ends).
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 7, 2016 at 1:26 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I think the the firefighters did more than should
>> be expected of them.
And 19 of them probably died BECAUSE of these ‘overblown expectations’… regardless of whether they were ‘self imposed’ ( Sic: Esse Quam Videri crap ) or ‘coming from above’.
It’s simply beyond ironic that the ‘argument’ that Arizona Forestry is using to try and get out from under any accusations of ‘negligence’ automatically makes the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ FREELANCERS… and only emphasizes the fact that THEY are the ones who ‘Esse Quam Videried’ themselves right into their graves.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> “HEY…Dumb Asses…Heads Up…WE have been ordered
>> to evacuate this area….MAYBE, just MAYBE…if
>> professional wlldland firefighters have been ordered
>> to di di mau this area most ricky tick MF’s….maybe
>> you should too! Or at least get ready for it, but I am
>> NOT authorized to order you to evacuate because
>> I am a FUCKIN’ GRUNT…a worker bee,,,get it!
That actually might BE exactly what the Blue Ridge Hotshots said to the ‘civilians’ who came up to them asking why THEY were ‘leaving the area’ that afternoon.
Since ADOSH was never allowed to ‘interview’ ANY of the Blue Ridge Hotshots ( and since none of them still feel free to talk about that day )… we still don’t know EXACTLY what they were saying to the ‘civilians’.
From one of the ‘unredacted’ parts of one of the official Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs…
———————————————–
Concerned public begins approaching vehicles demanding answers about evacuations and asking US why WE are leaving. We respond there is no official evacuation in progress but we recommend you to be ready.
———————————————–
Things were so fucked up at that point in time it is very likely the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ really did NOT know whether there were any ‘official ( citizen ) evacuations’ in progress yet… or not.
All they knew ( or were required to know ) was…
1. Get ON the fireline ( If told to do so ).
2. Cut line and burn it out. ( If told to do so ).
3. Cut line and backfire it. ( If told to do so ).
4. Cut line and burn it out and backfire it. ( If told to do so ).
5 Get OFF the fireline ( If told to do so ).
6. Go home.
That pretty much sums up my experience as a hotshot…God I miss it!
There are a few more things to live by if you are a hotshot,
“Never run when you can walk. Never walk when you can stand. Never stand when you can sit. Never sit when you can lay down. Never lay down when you can sleep. And eat whenever food is offered because you never know when it will be offered again. Amen.”
Gary,
I trust that you are considering that there were a great number of elderly folks in Yarnell on June 30,2013 who wouldnt have physically or mentally responded as quickly as a younger generation and therefore needed assistance.
Yes, I do…and here is another part of my MOAP. I wonder how all of those old people got so fuckin’ old being so fuckin’ stupid?
It really is too bad they lived that long and had so much opportunity to dilute our gene pool with their stupid genes. You can’t fix stupid, you can only medicate it.
In the good old days, those same people would have been eliminated by natural selection BEFORE they got to reproduce. Bummer.
OK…I will give some of them the benefit of the doubt, this time. It’s like President Geoge W. Bush once said, ‘There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fo… … Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”
So I am going to lay out step by step instructions that everyone should print, clip out, put on their refrigerators and follow the next time their is a wildfire in their neighborhood.
1. If you look out and see a wildfire, especially one of Biblical proportions bearing down on your position…get the fuck out…DO IT NOW!
2. If you look out and hot ash, glowing embers, and other fiery debris is raining down on your position…get the fuck out…DO IT NOW!
3. If all of the professional wildland firefighters are leaving, or have already left your position…get the fuck out…DO IT NOW!
4. If you are elderly, slow, dim witted, handicapped, or otherwise physically or mentally impaired, inflicted, or incapacitated in any way…get a HEAD START in getting the fuck out because you are going to need it. DO IT NOW!
Now this…is really funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz9jo5Az6Y8
The you tube segment was a little bit funny but the rest was just plain mean.
Yep…that’s how the world is. And like I have said lots of times…I was never paid to be nice and in fact…I am not a “nice” person.
Nice guys don’t survive doing the things I did for you for more than 30 years. You don’t want nice guys doing those jobs for you.
And a nice guy won’t tell you the truth now. Do you want the truth…or do you want me to be nice?
Oh…and one more thing. Here is the “nice” version of what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Nobody did anything wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots died as heroes trying to save the town of Yarnell.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed when the fire made an unexpected reversal due to an unforeseen weather event.
There was a complete and thorough investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
All necessary adjustments in wildland firefighting safety practices, tactics and strategies how been made.
How do you like me now?
Whoops. I can’t believe I forgot the nicest thing of all that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
God had a special plan for all 19 men on the GMIHC and He called them home together…to be with Him and start work on His special plans for them.
For some inexplicably reason, God had no immediate plans, at least in heaven, for Mr. McDonough. So… he wasn’t called home with the rest of his crew June 30, 2013.
I can’t figure out if that means God likes…or doesn’t like Mr. McDonough? Or maybe God is just saving him for something extra special in the future?
Actually…I have a really long history on this thread and in life of people loving me when they agree with me and hating me when they don’t.
My only problem (well…it’s NOT my ONLY problem) is that I have been unable on this thread and in life to modulate my attitude, positions, opinions, actions, etc., to please all of the people…all of the time.
So now that I am off the rez…I don’t worry about pleasing all of the people…all of time. It’s working out much, much, much better for ME this way.
Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
The Dude: No you’re not wrong.
Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
The Dude: You’re not wrong Walter. You’re just an asshole.
Walter Sobchak: Okay then.
?????
Being I know and helped the elders- I am not following your current thoughts—
How many years are you from being old ?
Many elders asked the YFD after church let out Sunday
and Fire folks on their streets they saw and was told it was all under control
so they are idiots to TRUST them
because from their home view you could not see the fire
and the fire folks say it is okay then they go to take a nap and their dog barks so strange like and they were exhausted and so one was not just an elder but not well so I do not mean to use just 1 sample for now ( it’s election day so my time is spent gearing up ) but I respect your view as it is just a perception but until you really know THE PEOPLE and their backgrounds they were not idiots- except to believe in the fire folks that it was all under control- that was their mistake.
14/3:56 and 2:23/3:56 says it all “PEOPLE”…you ask the fire folks the questions but they do not have to answer- and this video is BETTER than what actually happened that 6-30-13. I remember this style videos early on- this actually has happened in regards to the YHF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCmuIpZdqF8
As it is humorous your intent please keep in mind YOU are a NICE man, Gary and very well respected and YOU ARE HERE to ensure the RIGHT THING IS DONE-
Gary- you said: Nobody did anything wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
MY REPLY: that is not the facts- they know errors were made and they recognize it was a chaotic afternoon and a bad thing happened…THING…yes that is what was said…THING…19 lives and the rest goes on of THINGS…
Oooo-oooo- ME. ME ,ME…I love playing fill in the blanks or Mad Libs when Gary Said: The Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed when the fire made an unexpected reversal due to an unforeseen weather event. MY REPLY: aren’t you redacting and editing and narrating versus the reality that came down that afternoon…Last weekend I gained SEVEN new and updated interviews from the neighbors of the Helms of what they faced that weekend and those FINAL HOURS yet strange their interview never made it to the SAIR or media. Yet it compliments other evidence…and soon I will have even more photos and videos from the neighbors to the Helms….I think Gary you are frustrated that some of the folks who came to you and me still remain in the shadows…and not yet at the forefront and that we lay stagnant on being able to present new data…but as you stated above…”In His time…”…I am sure it will all happen just right. I did state to some I am filing a case against them in 13 days if I do not get what I paid for and asked for in some FOIAS…the time has come…and then BAM 2 days later I had all the documents and as well the sincerest apologies across the board. Also you do not think I have challenged YCSO— you said no one has—I think the hassles I have seen is because I have “paid attention” to that area and I would not have if I did not walk and hike with one GMHS loved one…that person is too close to find out the data so I dug for that person…
Gary, are you ready for the election tonight? Is your backpack geared up? Have enough water on hand?
If within the week chaos happens and one is not prepped for a worst case scenario- are they idiots too? Or just simple good clean living folks not aware of the behind the scenes of the “what ifs” of the big fire in their backyard…
now a question for WWTKTT—since Bill Gabbert has not yet replied…do you know the exact link to the “source” the map on tenderfoot fire was used June 9th 2:27pm MDT in Bill’s article http wildfiretoday com tag tenderfoot-fire?????
for Rocksteady- is human ignition used more vs. aerial ignitions in the wildland firefighting industry?
Are these ignitions controlled by the firefighting industry or state-county-local??? federal? misc?
is it different country to country?
When drinking Kool Aid- is there a certain one flavor ( Rock-a-Dile Red ) when it comes to firefighting industry–that they are THAT programmed to NOT question the data— that who, do not see or think beyond the USFS/BLM? These fire behaviors and patterns; how much is political driven? or envious excitable arsonists aka certain firefighters…how come barely ANY come here to confront fact vs fiction when we all type our humble perceptions—our questions and answers—How many fires are naturally caused and stay naturally caused and burn itself out.
Where is Muzzy?
That was sarcasm Joy. I know just about everything was done wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And I am old now…and too fucking smart to go lay down and take a nap when a wildfire of Biblical proportions are bearing down on me…regardless of what someone tells me.
And people may not like how I said it, but they need to pay attention to what I said, don’t depend on others to save you. Depend on yourself.
a lot of pure raw words by Gary is really right —
the bottom line elders and children- we currently have a flaw in the industry of firefighting…so YES when they say they have it under control than think to YHF when they said that too where lives were lost and homes and etc.
http://brianmcfadden.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/1-3-strip-blog.png
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 7, 2016 at 12:03 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I mean…another Fuckin’ Republican would ever be allowed to
>> challenge him in the electoral process and you don’t think a
>> Fuckin’ Democrat would ever have a chance to win an election
>> in Yavapia County do you? And I honestly don’t know what party
>> affiliation Sherriff Mascher has, but I will bet you he’s not a
>> democrat.
As usual… your ‘first instincts’ are ‘correct’.
He’s a Republican.
He got ‘appointed’ to the job when the previous guy retired… then when it came time to actually ‘elect’ him to the job… he ran ‘unopposed’.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: A look at the use of deadly force: Yavapai County Sheriff’s deputies have fatally shot five in 18 months
Published: November 15, 2015 6 a.m – by Scott Orr
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2015/nov/15/a-look-at-the-use-of-deadly-force-yavapai-county-/
————————————————————————
PRESCOTT – In the last 18 months, Yavapai County Sheriff’s deputies have shot and killed five suspects.
They have killed 13 since the year 2000.
In that same 15-year period, the six city and town police departments in Yavapai County had nine officer-involved shooting deaths combined.
What accounts for the disparity?
Yavapai County Sheriff Scott Mascher said he doesn’t have an answer to that question.
“Why that may be, I don’t know,” he said.
Mascher, 53, has been the Yavapai County Sheriff since June 2011, when Steve Waugh cut short his second term and took an early retirement.
Mascher had, himself, retired from the YCSO in February 2011, but had returned to the force three months later as Chief Deputy, which put him in line for Waugh’s job.
The Yavapai County Board of Supervisors appointed him to fill the vacant slot when Waugh left.
Mascher, a Republican, ran unopposed in the 2012 election and has announced his intention to run again in 2016.
————————————————————————-
Yes, when we did that investigation of his brother Sheriff Mascher was the Lieutenant for Investigations. The YCSO sent out a guy who graduated with me from Prescott High School to observe (as a courtesy) the execution of the search warrant who was a captain at the time…it was like old home week, except under a lot of stress.
That is how almost all sheriff’s offices work that I have experience with…there is always a designated guy who is groomed inside of the office under the sheriff and then he gets the nod to take the job when the old guy retires…so nothing ever changes.
Works the same around here.
For DECADES now… the ‘current’ Sheriff decided to ‘retire early’ ( with full golden parachute ) just so that a small group of people are allowed to ‘appoint’ the next ‘favorite son’… rather than bother with those pesky things called ‘elections’.
Then… by the time an ‘election’ does come around… the public is too lazy to even look at the other candidates and the ‘anointed one’ ( incumbent chose without an election ) just “keeps the job”.
But Arizona takes it to a new level.
The ‘anointed one’ gets ‘assigned’ the job… and then when it comes time for that pesky crap called “elections”… no one even bothers to run against him/her. ( Mascher, Karen Fann, etc, etc. )
That’s Arizonaistan! Got to love it…or not?.
Holy Moly! Thank you,Gary.
No wonder I have been getting a strange reception to what must seem like outrageous questions to folks in Yavapai County—make that dangerous (potential to harm careers etc.) not outrageous.
I have lived in Flagstaff,Williams,Sierra Vista and lately in Tucson and now that I am retired in Indianapolis to stay with my grandchildren while my daughter works. My background has been in Education so politics is not my forte.
I, along with so many others, just want to know the straight facts of what happened to Granite Mountain.
Well…those are just my opinions on the subject, I would like to read what others think and I do appreciate WTKTT weighing in on the subject because it is complex and there are no easy answers.
Gary, Scott Masher is from the elite — a swat team elite.
Whoops…I should have said, “Botched evidence collection AND HANDLING
And just for clarification, make that 19 (NINETEEN) botched death investigations and complete and total abdication of all of their responsibility.
I can’t believe that nobody cares about what the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office failed to do, except everybody is in so in love that the Big Lie that big bad fire got them and there was nothing anyone could or should have done different that day.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 7, 2016 at 11:36 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I know WTKTT and others will disagree with this position….but I think that
>> there is a big difference between someone helping because they could…
>> as opposed to someone being mandated to help and face punitive actions
>> for not helping as much, or as well, as everyone thinks they should or could have.
I ( me, personally ) don’t ‘disagree’ with that position at all.
There IS a ‘big difference’ between what your ‘responsibilities’ are as an EMPLOYEE… while you being EMPOYED by others to ‘do something’… and what you might do when you are ‘freelancing’ and acting ‘on your own’.
It is Arizona Forestry itself that is arguing, in open courtrooms, that anyone who was EMPLOYED by them to fight the Yarnell Hill Fire also had not one atomic molecule of ‘responsibility’ ( as part of the work contract ) to lift a single finger to either ‘warn’ or ‘help’ any ‘citizen’ and/or lift a finger to protect THEIR ‘property’.
So it is THEIR ‘legal argument’ is that if ANY of their ’employees’ WERE doing anything of the sort… then they were ‘freelancing’ and acting ‘outside the scope of their work responsibilities’.
The currently active court cases and ‘arguments’ are making the same distinction(s).
Whether or not any kind of DUTY existed in the first place ( as part of the employer / employee relationship )… AND / OR ( separate issue ) whether or not when someone VOLUNTARILY chooses to ‘undertake’ something… whether there is then a LEGAL requirement for them to perform that ‘undertaking’ in a ‘non-negligent way’.
Any/all ‘negligence’ that is actually ‘alleged’ in these ‘cases’ can ONLY be determined by going to trial and FIRST finding out what the fuck really happened that entire weekend.
As attorney-for-the-plaintiffs David Abney recently argued before the Arizona Court of Appeals… those FACTS have still YET to come ‘into the full light of day’.
The plaintiffs have been ( and are still being ) PREVENTED from finding out what REALLY happened that entire weekend because the lower-court judge ( Richard Gama ) decided to not even let them have a ‘trial’ and be able to call ‘witnesses’.
Attorney David Abney make it CLEAR to the judges that all the FACTS have still yet to come to light… and that is all the plaintiffs are asking for.
There is no guarantee that they will WIN the case… even once all the FACTS are known.
But it’s not the job of the Appeals Court to even ‘argue’ the ‘facts of the case’.
That is what an ACTUAL ‘Trial’ is for.
Win or lose… it’s the ‘phase’ of the legal system that allows the FACTS to actually be fully ascertained ( by calling and cross-examining witnesses, etc. ).
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> If someone REALLY pushes that point…
The ‘someone’ that is ‘REALLY pushing that point’ is Arizona Forestry itself ( with the help of the assigned lawyers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office.
THEY are the ones ‘pushing the argument’ that they ( and their employees ) never have one atomic molecule of ‘duty’ and/or ‘responsibility’ to ever lift a finger to ‘warn’ and/or ‘protect’ any ‘citizens’ and/or ‘their property’;… and that if any of their ’employees’ ever DO attempt something like that… they are, in fact, automatically committing ‘negligence’ by ‘freelancing’ and ‘acting outside of their work scope’.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> government agencies are capable of putting it in writing that no wildland
>> firefighting employee shall help any citizen during an emergency evacuation
>> regardless of the circumstances and if they do, they will face disciplinary
>> action up and and including termination.
Yes… and that is EXACTLY what Arizona Forestry is ( currently ) doing.
They are trying to “put it in writing” ( via actual COURT DECISIONS ) that their employees will ALWAYS be AUTOMATICALLY ‘freelancing’ and acting ‘outside of the employer/employee relationship’ if they ever lift any fingers to ‘help’ any ‘citizens’ and/or lift a finger to try and protect their property.
So Gary Cordes would be suspect of loosing his job Gary? But that would be a decision of his supervisors–a value judgement whether they like Gary Cordes or whether they would want to give him walking papers. Looks like you rub my back and I rub yours, not a set deal but a subjective judgement.
I want to take this opportunity to address the Women of America, or at least the few who may be reading this blog. I feel I am uniquely qualified to address the issue of grabbing women by their pussies because of who you are, and not because they want you to.
This is because I have made it a big part of my shtick to channel my former back of the hotshot crew carrier self by being rude, crude, offensive, boorish and behaving in otherwise an unacceptable manner in civilized society…much like Donald Trump has his entire privileged life except his act isn’t a shtick, it’s the real person. That Asshole was born on third base and he keeps running around telling everyone he hit a triple.
So…here is another one of my stories for you because no one else wants to hear them, even if you don’t either. Once upon a time…a young teenage girl got lost on the Coconino National Forest on our district…the Long Valley RD not far from Mormon Lake when I was the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss. Our entire crew was dispatched late in the evening to meet up with Coconino County Sheriff’s Office Deputies at the search and rescue command post and staging area to help search for the young lady because it was late in the summer and at over 7,400, the nights were cold and they were afraid she would die from hypothermia if she wasn’t found quickly.
Shortly after we arrived on scene, I stepped off the bus to report for duty to a group that included search and rescue personnel, deputies, and the girl’s parents. After I told them why we were there and what my orders were, the Incident Commander profusely thanked me for bringing my crew out to help in the search effort. But then he also informed me that fortunately, they had just located the young lady and thankfully she was safe so our assistance was no longer required.
As I said my goodbye’s and turned around to climb back on the hotshot bus with the crew looking on and listening, one of the deputies said in a very loud voice from the back of the group…”Ya, when we heard the hotshots were coming to help look for her, we knew we had to hurry up and find her before you did!”
Of course this dear fellow was just joking, but his wit did earn him appreciative and raucous laughter from all of the other deputies and search and rescue personnel in the group, although her concerned parents just looked confused.
The point of my story in this, I witnessed, although I never participated in a great deal of rude, crude, offensive, boorish and otherwise unacceptable behavior in civilized society that included, “Roman Polanski Night” contests at the Mormon Lake Lodge bar by some of the more reckless members of our crews, hotshots yelling, “Show us your tits”, to random girls and women as we drove through towns (and sometimes young ladies did comply with this request in an effort to show solidarity and support for their wildland firefighters), but if someone would have talked like Donald Trump does about grabbing women by their pussies because of their power, position, influence, or wealth, rather than because a woman wants them to, he would find his bunk and footlocker set up OUTSIDE of our barracks, which is how we shunned those who did not value our hotshot crew mores and ethos.
And I think the group of men I was bullshittin’ with yesterday at the welding shop would take “The Donald” out behind their shop just like Fightin’ Joe Biden would and beat the fuck out of him after they killed those asshole bodyguards (not the Secret Service Agents, his contract assholes who are always with him) with chunks of steel that are covered with beautiful patinas of deep red rust.
The way he talks is NOT locker room talk, or back of the hotshot bus talk, it is how sexual predators talk. So…I do hope the Women of America do vote early and often in record numbers next Tuesday, November 8, 2016, and in doing so, send a clear message to the real pussies of America…men like Donald Trump that their days are numbered. Just sayin’….
Oh…and one more thing. I stopped both practices and a few others after I became crew boss.. So…
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 4, 2016 at 9:05 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> This is interesting–Gary cordes refused to attend the question
>> and answer session. Why ?
Only Arizona Forestry and Gary Cordes know.
There is ’email’ proof that Cordes was ‘on the list’ of specific Yarnell Hill Fire participants that the family members were requesting be THERE to answer their questions on the legally-mandated ‘Question and Answer Day’ ( which was held in secret back on February 5 of 2016 )… but those emails do not contain any ‘explanation’. They only show Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry informing the family members’ attorney that he would NOT be attending.
And SPGS1 Gary Cordes was not the ONLY one on the family member’s list that REFUSED to come to the meeting to answer their ‘questions’.
Of the 14 participants in the Yarnell Hill Fire legally requested by the family members to be there to answer their ‘questions’… apparently only FOUR of them ‘showed up’ to the meeting itself.
NOTE: While the family members were LEGALLY allowed to ‘request’ ( as per the codified legal lawsuit settlement agreement ) who they wanted to be at this settlement-mandated ‘meeting’ to answer their questions about the Yarnell Hill Fire… those ‘requests’ did not amount to any kind of legal ‘subpoena’ and/or ‘summons’. It was just a ‘meeting’… not an official ‘court proceeding’. There was no way either the family members OR Arizona Forestry could FORCE any of those people to attend if they didn’t WANT to.
That’s why the family members, if they REALLY wanted REAL answers, should NOT have ‘settled’ their ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits and should have proceeded to trial. Then these people they wanted/needed to ‘hear from’ COULD have been ‘summoned to appear’ as ‘witnesses’ in the court proceeding(s).
Whether they would have ultimately ‘won’ the proceeding is irrelevant.
They would have, at least, finally gotten to hear what all these critical witnesses had to say ‘under oath’ and subject to ‘cross-examination’… and they would have still achieved their stated goal of just finding out more about what REALLY happened to cause the loss of their loved ones on June 30, 2013.
The emails related to this legally-mandated ‘Question and Answer Day’ that were obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA are still sitting at the following link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Yarnell-Family-Meeting-emails-Joy-Hernbrode-REDACTED-2-2.pdf
And here is just one of the postings that took place back in Chapter 22 of this ongoing discussion related to those ‘Question and Answer Day’ emails…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-338862
——————————————————————————————————-
**
** THE GM FAMILY MEMBERS’ SETTLEMENT-MANDATED Q/A DAY
**
** WHO THE FAMILY MEMBERS WANTED TO ATTEND THE MEETING
** TO ANSWER ALL OF THEIR QUESTIONS?
I’ll be focusing on the ‘secret’ Family Q/A day a little more… and so here is the actual LIST of people that were working the Yarnell Hill Fire that the Granite Mountain Family members told their attorneys they wanted to be REQUIRED to attend the Q/A day on February 5, 2016… and answer their questions.
The actual multi-multi-million dollar ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits against Arizona Forestry that were ‘settled’ included a ‘requirement’ that not only this Q/A day take place… but the settlement also gave the Family Members the absolute right to request WHO they wanted to be REQUIRED to be there to answer their questions.
Arizona Forestry was only able to get SOME of these people to attend the meeting.
This is the email that also contained that ‘plea’ from the family attorneys that Arizona Forestry reconsider allowing this person named ‘Holly Neill’ to be able to attend the Q/A meeting.
Arizona Forestry had refused since they were aware that Ms. Neill WAS known to be working with author John Maclean on a for-profit book about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The family attorneys were ( in this email ) now asking Arizona Forestry to reconsider, and informing them that Ms. Neill had agreed to sign a ‘non-disclosure’ agreement, if necessary, in order to be able to attend the meeting.
There is no email in the records Arizona Forestry released responsive to the ‘GM Family Q/A meeting’ which indicates what Arizona Forestry’s final decision was regarding Ms. Neill… or whether she was ever actually allowed to attend the Q/A meeting.
—————————————————————————————–
From: Clark, Shannon L.
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 5:19 PM
To: Joy Hernbrode
Cc: Anthony Hancock; McGroder, Patrick J.
Subject: Q&A 2/5
Hi Joy:
Can you let me know who will be at the Q&A? My clients have requested the following, many of whom you don’tcontrol…
Paul Musser
Roy Hall
Russell Shumate
Byron Kimball
Todd Abel
Gary Cordes
Tony Sciacca
Brendan McDonough
Tom Cooley
Rance Marquez
Brian Frisby
Rogers Trueheart Brown
Thomas French
John Burfing
My understanding is that Abel will be there but Cordes will not.
They have also asked you to reconsider Holly Neil’s presence at the session. I’m told she’s not helping write the book ( has just done research ). But would like to attend as a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation and would agree to be bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure. Think about it and let me know. Working on getting questions corralled.
Shannon
————————————————————————————-
NOTES…
Attorney ( for family members ) Shannon Clark was simply getting John Burfiend’s name wrong ( she spelled it John Burfing ).
Gary Cordes apparently REFUSED to attend… as did Tony Sciacca.
Tony Sciacca did say he would meet PRIVATELY with any family, members, however.
NONE of the Blue Ridge Hotshots attended the meeting… even though GM family members specifically wanted at least BR Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Assistant Superintendent ( Captain ) Trueheart Brown to attend.
There are other emails which indicate Brendan McDonough was never even invited to attend… because both parties changed their minds and decided they didn’t even WANT him there.
As unbelievable as it might sound… Arizona Forestry is not only claiming there is absolutely NO documentation regarding what ANY of the ANSWERS might have been to the GM family members QUESTIONS… there wasn’t even a document provided from the meeting which would indicate WHO was ACTUALLY THERE.
The closest we get ( documentation-wise ) is that LUNCH ORDER that was placed for the meeting, which is also in the FOIA-obtained ’emails’.
According to just that document… the ONLY people from this list coming from the GM family members that actually DID ‘show up’ for the settlement-mandated Q/A day would be…
Paul Musser
Roy Hall
Byron Kimball
Todd Abel
That is ( apparently ) IT.
Just FOUR out of the original 14 ( FOURTEEN ) that were requested.
There is also the following ’email’…
————————————————————————————————–
On June 7, 2016 at 8:12 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth also said…
And here is Arizona Forestry Deputy Director ( Administration ) Joy Hernbrode informing Shannon Clark, attorney representing 12 of the family members of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots, that Yarnell Hill fire SAFETY OFFICER Tony Sciacca is REFUSING to attend the settlement-mandated Family Members ‘Question and Answer’ day…
———————————————————————–
From: Joy Hernbrode ( JoyHernbrode (at) azsf.gov )
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 11:57 AM
To: Clark, Shannon L.
Subject: RE: Sciacca
Shannon: I invited Tony and he does not want to attend.
He indicated that he would be willing to meet with folks individually if they want.
Sorry.
Joy
———————————————————————–
There is no email which shows that any of the others who were ‘refusing’ to attend the settlement mandated ‘Question and Answer Day’ ( including Gary Cordes ) made any kind of ‘similar’ offer like Sciacca did to ‘meet with them privately’ to answer any questions they might have.
Sciacca was ( apparently ) the only one of those REFUSING to attend the meeting that then turned around and made such an offer to the family members.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> If I remember correctly wasn’t he in charge of protecting structures in Yarnell?
Yes.
He was ‘summoned’ to Yarnell by Arizona Forestry Incident Commander Russ Shumate on Saturday night for that specific purpose, not long after Russ Shumate’s Initial Attack FAILED… and the fire had now ‘escaped’ containment.
Both Cordes and Darrell Willis arrived in Yarnell circa 11:00 PM on Saturday night, and were supposed to immediately ‘evaluate the situation’ with regards to protecting structures in the area. Gary Cordes was assigned the Yarnell and Glen Ilah area… and Darrell Willis was assigned the Model Creek and Peeples Valley area.
Gary Cordes went on to be the official SPGS1 on Sunday, for Roy Hall’s Type 2 short team… and Darrell Willis went on to be the official SPGS2 on Sunday.
Both men had already been ‘up all night’ by the time Roy Hall’s short team began assembling on Sunday morning.
There is also evidence that while BOTH of these men were ( officially ) just listed in the final reports as SPGS1 and SPGS2… that they BOTH considered themselves ‘Division Supervisors’ all day on Sunday… and they were ACTING as such.
There really is no question that this person named ‘Gary Cordes’ was the ‘unofficial’, but ‘de-facto’ ‘Division Supervisor’ on the Yarnell side of the fire on Sunday… and that everyone working that part of the fire was ‘accepting’ that he was that area’s ‘Division Supervisor’. He ( Cordes ) was basically ‘in charge’ of EVERYTHING on that end of the fire… for the entire day ( on Sunday ).
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to length limits )…
( Continued from above… )
>> Diane lomas also asked…
>>
>> Was he also in charge of civilians in Yarnell?
There is an active ‘court case’ in front of the Arizona Board of Appeals right now that is ( among other things ) trying to ‘answer’ that exact question.
On Sunday, June 30, 2013… CYFD Training Supervisor Gary Cordes was, officially, an ‘Arizona State Forestry’ sub-contractor.
Arizona State Forestry was ( officially ) ‘in charge’ of ALL the ‘firefighting’ efforts ( and had been since shortly after the initial lightning strike late Friday afternoon ).
All of the firefighters ‘working’ the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013, were going to be ‘billing’ the State of Arizona Forestry Division for their ‘time’.
But Arizona Forestry is currently arguing in open courtrooms that neither THEY nor ANY of their ’employees’ ever had one single atomic molecule of responsibility to either protect ‘citizens’, their ‘property’, or to to even lift one finger to keep them ‘informed’ about what they were ( or were NOT ) doing… or whether they needed to ‘evacuate’, at any time.
So if Gary Cordes even *thought* he was ‘in charge of civilians’ ( and/or the protection of their property ) then he was already being ‘negligent’ and acting ‘outside the scope of his authority’ as an Arizona Forestry employee.
We all know that is just the crock-of-shit that the lawyers from the Arizona State Attorney General’s office who represt Arizona Forestry are using to try and get out from under the 135+ ‘negligence’ lawsuits that are currently still ‘pending’…
…but if the Appeals Court upholds the lower court ruling… then it DOES become ‘Arizona Law’ that ‘Arizona Forestry’ should NEVER be even attempting to protect any citizens or their property.
And that INCLUDES even ‘informing’ them whether or not they are in “harm’s way”, at ANY time.
SIDENOTE: Firemen are not ‘law enforcement officers’. So in the sense of them EVER being ‘in charge of civilians’… that really is never the case. Even in Gary Cordes’ own ADOSH testimony he says that on his trips back into Glen Ilah when the shit was hitting the fan… all he was doing was ‘advising’ people they should leave. That’s all he COULD do… based on both Arizona Law and the fact that he was NOT any kind of ‘law enforcement officer’. The ‘negligence’ being asserted in the pending lawsuits has more to do with the complete ‘incompetence’ with which Arizona Forestry conducted it’s Initial Attack and subsequent fire suppression efforts ( and LACK thereof ) with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire… AND more to do with the ‘incompetence’ demonstrated with INFORMING Law Enforcement and Municipalities about WHEN they were definitely “in harm’s way” and needed to START ‘evacuating’.
The lawsuits allege that they fucked up ( BIG TIME, and EXCEEDING the thresholds for ‘gross negligence’ ) on BOTH counts… and those are the ‘issues’ that will be decided in a ‘Court of Law’ if/when these lawsuits are allowed to have their ‘day in court’.
Gary corded accepted an award for saving people in Yarnell–wouldn’t that go against Arizona Forestry’s argument that he shouldn’t have been helping or ordering citizens in Yarnell to get out of danger?
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 7, 2016 at 8:23 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Gary corded accepted an award for saving people in
>> Yarnell–wouldn’t that go against Arizona Forestry’s argument
>> that he shouldn’t have been helping or ordering citizens in
>> Yarnell to get out of danger?
According to what the lawyers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office who are ‘representing’ Arizona Forestry continue to argue in open courtrooms… the answer to your question is… yes.
If the Arizona Appeals court ‘upholds’ the lower-court ‘decision’ that has been rendered by Maricopa County Judge Richard Gama… then Gary Cordes ( and/or any other Arizona State Forestry employee or contractor ) was not only NEVER supposed to lift a finger to either ‘warn’ or ‘help’ any ‘citizen’ of Yarnell or Glen Ilah… any attempt to do so would have automatically been ‘negligence’ and ‘outside the scope of their responsibilities’.
If Judge Gama’s ‘decision’ is upheld… then it ALSO automatically means that if the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ were even thinking about ‘getting to town’ in order to help ‘protect’ any citizens or their property… then they DIED while committing ‘negligence’ and acting ‘outside the scope of their responsibilities’.
Once again… here is a copy of Arizona Judge Richard Gama’s actual ‘ruling’ which caused the initial dismissal of the Yarnell Property owner’s lawsuits ( for ‘negligence’ ) against Arizona Forestry…
http://41af3k34gprx4f6bg12df75i.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2015/05/Acri-v-Arizona.pdf
Direct QUOTES from that ‘Ruling’… dated April 28, 2015…
——————————————————————————————
To establish a claim for negligence, a plaintiff ( the property ownsers ) must prove
(1) a DUTY requiring the defendant ( Arizona Forestry ) to conform to a certain standard of care;
(2) a breach of that standard of care by the defendant ( Arizona Forestry ).
(3) a causal connection between the defendant’s conduct and the injury; and
(4) actual damages. E.g., Gipson v. Kasey, 214 Ariz. 141, 143 (2007).
The State argues that Plaintiffs ( the property owners ) fail to state a claim because it OWED NO DUTY TO THEM.
See Ariz. R. Civ. P. 12(b)(6).4
“The issue of duty is not a factual matter; it is a legal matter to be determined before the case-specific facts are considered.” Gipson, 214 Ariz. at 145 (emphasis in original); Diaz v. Phx. Lubrication Serv., Inc., 224 Ariz. 335, 338 (App. 2010).
DUTY is defined as an “obligation, recognized by law, which requires the defendant to conform to a particular standard of conduct in order to protect others against unreasonable risks of harm. Markowitz v. Ariz. Parks Bd., 146 Ariz. 352, 354 (1985); Gipson, id. at 143. Whether a duty exists is a matter of law for the Court. Gipson, id.
The State argues that it did NOT OWE A DUTY to Plaintiffs by undertaking to manage and suppress the Fire.
The Court AGREES.
The Court finds that the State’s undertaking was NOT a service rendered to Plaintiffs.
The ASFD’s authority vis-a-vis wildfires is coextensive with the best interest of the STATE, and NOT persons who own property near State trust land.
See A.R.S. § 37-623(A); see generally A.R.S. § 37-621 et seq.
The Court is persuaded that public policy does NOT support imposition of a DUTY on the State to protect Plaintiffs’ property from wildfires. See Gipson, 214 Ariz. at 146 n.4
Plaintiffs also allege that they suffered harm because they relied on the State to provide a timely and adequate evacuation notice.
But, although Plaintiffs allege that an evacuation of Yarnell “was requested” on June 30, they do not allege that the State undertook to provide one. Nor do they offer any law that would impose a pre-existing DUTY on the State to even PROVIDE an evacuation notice.
SIGNED: THE HONORABLE J. RICHARD GAMA,
JUDGE OF THE SUPERIOR COURT OF ARIZONA
April 28, 2015
——————————————————————————————
But then… in the recent ‘oral arguments’ for this case in front of the Arizona Appeals Court… one of the attorney’s from the Arizona Attorney General’s office representing Arizona Forestry ( Brock Heathcotte ) basically admitted to the Judges that the original lawsuit(s) should never have been ‘dismissed’ at all…
From the hearing…
———————————————————————————————-
Appellate Court Judge Peter Swan: But the allegation is that… it… uh… that essentially there was a… a collection of people… uh… from various agencies working to… stop this fire… and that the STATE supervised the effort and directed it. That’s the allegation. I don’t know what sort of factual disputes might arise from it… but that’s the allegation we have to take at face value. So… so IF the STATE ‘decides’ to coordinate those efforts… doesn’t it bear some responsibility for coordinating the efforts ‘reasonably’?
AZFS Attorney Brock Heathcotte: Uh… sure.
Appellate Court Judge Peter Swan: And isn’t that “a duty”?
AZFS Attorney Brock Heathcotte: Uh… sure.
LONG pause. No one says anything and there is dead silence in the courtroom. Even Judge Swan is astounded and doesn’t quite know what to say next. Heathcotte has just basically fully admitted that the lawsuits should never have been ‘dismissed’ at all by the lower court.
————————————————————————————————-
Gary never said he rescued Pearl and if the fire was so bad in Glen Ilah the buggies woulda turned north on 89 not south
The media did article that gary saved bryan and pearl and Gary never asked media to make correction that he was not the fella that did that…than he got awards for his action of saving bryan…so help us locals get what you say…are you 3rd party speaking for gary because the media said it and he never corrected them in any foia I did or any reporter I know I asked…and they looked into..
Help us comprehend…how you came to say gary never said he rescued pearl when she was with bryan and so some locals need to get what you mean…especially Dubaska family whose hallway was on fire when they took nap and so walk the area and speak direct to the people and get a real account feel for 6.30.13…I have documented in the start 483 but the number grew since then…so I stand firm Gary needs to first hand come out public on him saving bryan and pearl and or who he saved to get that award….
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 3, 2016 at 10:55 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> During the time that help was needed in Yarnell to evacuate citizens why
>> didn’t personnel who were gathered at the ranch house assist?
Some of them did.
There’s never been a full, accurate accounting but the names of the people who DID drive into Glen Ilah to assist YCSO ( who were already back there in this timeframe ) with ‘evacuations’ includes SPGS1 Gary Cords, ATGS Dan Sullivan and ( according to Cordes ) OPS2 Paul Musser.
But with regards to the MAJORITY of the ‘personnel’ who were ‘gathered at the Ranch House Restaurant’… ( Engines and their crews and the Blue Ridge Hotshots, etc. )… the short answer is that SPGS1 Gary Cordes would not LET them participate because he felt it was already ‘too dangerous’.
The bottom line is that the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’ was the designated primary ‘Safety Zone’ for all the forces on the SOUTH side of the fire that day.
That’s where EVERYONE who had been working in or near Yarnell was ‘told to go’ when the shit started hitting the fan and the fire started ‘arriving’ in Yarnell.
It was the firefighter’s JOB, at that point, to just ‘get to the Safety Zone’… and that’s what they were doing.
Gary Cordes’ interview with ADOSH covers all this pretty well… and it is still sitting here in the InvestigativeMEDIA public evidence Dropbox…
Folder: ADOSH / Yarnell Investigation / Central Yavapai Fire District / Transcripts
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAAS6KScxLx9RPUBzGLR9wFwa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Central%20Yavapai%20Fire%20District/Transcripts?dl=0
Filename: “Gary Cordes interview 9-11-13.pdf”
Here is the part in Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview where he says that some of the ‘Engine Crews’ at the Ranch House Restaurant were actually ‘peeved’when he would NOT let them travel back into the Glen Ilah area to help with any emergency evacuations and/or ‘rescues’.
It’s also where he basically ‘paints the picture’ that once the Granite Mountain deployment radio traffic appeared… a lot of people at the Ranch House Restaurant were not just totally ‘focused’ on this new ‘Incident within an Incident’…
———————————————————————————-
1791 Q2: Wh – yeah, I, I had to regroup there, uh, quite a touching story. I uh, tell me,
1792 tell me, Gary, I, I – on uh, (unintelligible) when you’re uh, rescuing people
1793 and uh, all the wonderful things that you did, do you, do you ever, paint a
1794 picture for me, do any guys ever uh, radio that in to somebody or hey, I have
1795 someone or transporting to ambulance or…
1796
1797 A: Um…
1798
1799 Q2: …do you ever say any of that stuff on the radio?
1800
1801 A: I did not, um, part of the issue is right now we have a lot of traffic on the
1802 radio, um…
1803
1804 Q2: Right.
1805
1806 A: …uh, Ops, somewhere during this timeframe, as I was bringing people out uh,
1807 Ops Able was now parked at the Ranch, as just about everybody was um,
1808 coming in, ‘cause a lot of the resources were getting pulsed over uh, Tony
1809 Sciacca was safety uh, um, Marty Cole, all those people were now in that area.
1810 Um, they were trying over several frequencies to try to get a hold of Eric and
1811 the crew, uh, um, so my belief is always to limit our traffic and, and not
1812 interfere with the incident with any incident um, as much as possible. My
1813 crews knew where I was at, um, as far as that I was going in. The engines
1814 were a little peeved because I wasn’t using them for rescue but I told ‘em I
1815 didn’t feel comfortable committing ‘em to the, to the uh, conditions, so um, I
1816 felt it was, you know, my opportunity or um, um, responsibility to go in and
1817 try to make the best we could of saving of any lives we could out of there, but
1818 um, no I did not transmit any of that over the radio.
1819
1820 Q2: Did, did you hear anyone do – I heard that Tony uh, rescued a person or two.
1821 Uh, Mr. Sciacca…
1822
1823 A: No, I, I think pretty much we all just kinda dove in and started working is, is
1824 how it kinda came up, came about. There was no formal um, communication
1825 order.
———————————————————————————-
Key phrase ( from Cordes’ interview )…
“The engines were a little peeved because I wasn’t using them for rescue but I told ‘em I didn’t feel comfortable committing ‘em to the, to the uh, conditions, so um, I felt it was, you know, my opportunity or um, um, responsibility to go in and try to make the best we could of salving of any lives we could out of there.
It is also well-documented that Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown made an ‘extra effort’ to make sure all the ‘firefighters’ got out of the Harper Canyon and the Shrine Road Youth Camp area… but there is no evidence they ( or any of the Blue Ridge crew ) assisted with any CIVILIAN evacuations.
But that wasn’t their job.
When it was time for THEM to ‘get out of dodge’, and ‘get off the fire’ and go to the designated ‘Safety Zone’ at the Ranch House Restaurant… that’s what they did, just as they should have and as they are trained to do.
The only thing in the evidence record that comes close to establishing that the Blue Ridge Hotshots had any ‘contact’ with the ‘public’ at all in this timeframe has always been the following mysterious blurb in one of the unnamed Blue Ridge Hotshot ( signed ) Unit Logs.
Not only does it establish that, once told to evacuate by SPGS1 Gary Cordes, they just proceeded to do that… it also establishes that they did NOT even tell some members of the public that THEY had, in fact, been told to evacuate and that THEY should, as well.
From the Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Log…
—————————————————————————————————–
Concerned public begins approaching vehicles demanding answers about evacuations and asking US why WE are leaving. We respond there is no official evacuation in progress but we recommend you to be ready.
——————————————————————————————————
So ( apparently )… not only did the Blue Ridge Hotshots not ‘stop and assist’ any of Yarnell’s citizens… they even just told them that there ‘was no official evacuation’… even though THEY had ALREADY been told to evacuate to the Ranch House Restaurant.
Typo above. I typed ‘not’ when I meant to type ‘now’.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
————————————————————————
It’s also where he basically ‘paints the picture’ that once the Granite Mountain deployment radio traffic appeared… a lot of people at the Ranch House Restaurant were NOW just totally ‘focused’ on this new ‘Incident within an Incident’…
————————————————————————
Diane. Keep in mind this is the same Gary Cordes who was in media saving Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore and they confirmed solid Gary Cordes was not the one who saved them so what sits in some Dropbox on Dougherty site means squat to me and some locals until he does a sit down interview with us locals because we got some REAL GOOD investigative questions for him THAT SHOULD BE sitting in Dougherty dropbox as answers and to me that man allowing the media to keep it that way and receive awards and accolades
We the locals would like to know WHO he thinks he saved to earn those moments of praise?
Yes… I should have mentioned up above that ALL of Gary Cordes’ ‘testimony’ has to be taken with an entire salt shaker.
Gary Cordes never even mentioned ( to ADOSH ) that he had instructed TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to ‘send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ for the purpose of making sure that ‘Granite Mountain’ got OUT of there safely… which means Cordes absolutely KNEW that is where they were headed and that they had either already arrived there when he gave Esquibel that order… or that they were just about to arrive there.
Tyson Esquibel thought this ‘order’ from Cordes was important enough that he documented it in his own ( signed ) ‘Unit Log’.
And what Esquibel ‘documented’ matches what later appeared in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos… after the SAIT and US Forestry finally admitted there had always been 21 videos… and not just the one ‘Helmet Cam’ video they had released with the deployment radio traffic in it.
We can actually HEAR SPGS1 Gary Cordes giving this ‘order’ to Tyson Esquibel to ‘send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch’… and that this ‘order’ was related to ‘Granite Mountain’.
But Gary Cordes made no such similar entry in his own ‘Unit Log’…. and never admitted to ADOSH that he did any such thing.
So yea… Cordes’ ‘testimony’ has to be read ‘carefully’.
SIDENOTE: As a result of the settlement of 12 of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… the family members were promised ( by the settlement itself ) a ‘Quesiton and Answer’ day… and the family members were also allowed to REQUEST exactly WHO was supposed to be there to ‘answer their questions’. The family members specifically requested certain individuals be there… and one of them was SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
But Gary Cordes refused to attend that ‘Question and Answer’ session.
This is interesting–Gary cordes refused to attend the question and answer session. Why ?
If I remember correctly wasn’t he in charge of protecting structures in Yarnell? Was he also in charge of civilians in Yarnell?
Thank you for taking the time to explain what was happening on the fire I appreciate it
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 4, 2016 at 9:05 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> This is interesting–Gary cordes refused to attend
>> the question and answer session. Why ?
Good question.
Apparently… only Arizona Forestry and Gary Cordes know the answer to that one.
Gary Cordes was not the ONLY one who REFUSED to attend the ‘Family Member Question and Answer Day’ that was mandated by the court-settlement.
Of the 14 people the family members specifically requested be THERE to ‘answer their questions’… apparently only FOUR of them agreed to attend that settlement-mandated ‘meeting’.
See a longer reply ( with more detail ) up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-364713
I agree–if he was responsible for the safety of the citizens of Yarnell,responsible for their safe evacuation which didn’t happen nearly early enough and then didn’t make sure that they evacuated ASAP once they knew the fire was coming into Yarnell. How do the citizens NOT have a case? What an absolute horror it must have been for those elderly folks to have been virtually left on their own to deal with that situation! I can understand the shock that forestry personnel and others must have felt after the deployment but to not handle the plight of the Yarnell citizens is unacceptable.
Please correct me if I have come to incorrect conclusions.
Once again I appreciate your participation here because you ask thoughtful and insightful questions that in effect…take a fresh look at some of our very old arguments, points and other issues. So…I am going to do my best to try and answer your questions in areas where I do have opinions. I have been gone so I might miss some, but here is a shot at what I think about one of your questions.
My problem with the Helms is first and foremost they are not allowing access to the park through their land. I understand they like their little slice of heaven on a bun and their privacy just like it used to be…but it is not that way anymore and we all have to accept change…or perish. 19 men died on their front doorstep ostensibly trying to protect their “ranch” and everyone is using THAT term very loosely.
Earlier in this discussion I used the example of how when I used to go down to Phoenix, what is now the Piestewa Freeway used to be the little road that went up through Dreamy Draw to a remote part of the Valley of the Sun (or the Land of Mordor as I came to know it because of all of the smog and bad Orcs who live there), but I give some of them a pass because that traffic could turn anybody into an Orc.
The Piestewa Freeway is also called “Arizona State Route 51” and most people just say, “take the 51”. There is also a Piestewa Peak that was called “Squaw Peak” for…ever, I guess until White Arizona run by Fuckin’ Republicans (no offense intended if you are a member of the venerated political party formerly known as the Grand Old Party or the Party of Lincoln until it was taken over and run off a cliff by the “crazies” who would rather see our republic end up like the Roman Republic rather than accept some adjustments to their White Entitlement since I used to be a Fuckin’ Republican myself, and now I have to atone for my past sins) were told that word is actually a racial slur.
Gee…I really am a contradictory person since I wear a Thor’s Hammer given to me by my brother around my neck that is commonly used as a symbol of White Supremacists and Neo Nazi’s. But a Thor’s Hammer it is really a symbol of ethnic Norse and Scandinavian pride that was replaced for most by the Christian Cross because it is a pagan symbol, but WTF…Over? But then again…like Donald Trump always says…who can control what the Fuckin’ White Supremacists and Neo Nazis do, it’s not his fault they are just like him…is it?
I guess I have just lived long enough and in enough places to learn that living in a society that is NOT dominated by northern European culture and people is NOT the end of the world since just like Sonny, I learned to love the Spanish and Mexican people even though I have dealt with more than my share of Terminal Assholes (TA’s, as opposed to SA’s…Situational Assholes, which is cop talk) from both cultures just like I dealt with more than my fair share of White and Native American TA’s.
But please forgive because once again I digress. Although I am like both Sonny and Joy…I think it is part of my job to digress on this thread and add some “color” to our discussions. We can’t all be as robotic as WTKTT can we?
If we were, we would all look like our potential next first lady…Melanie, who I think is really some kind of cyborg (short for “cybernetic organism”) although they did not spare any expenses on her tits, I have been told they look beautiful in some of her photo shoots where she took her clothes off for money…just like she did the first time she met Donald Trump. Does that sound “catty” of me? Maybe I am a bitch…(non gender specific)? Now this…is really funny, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxbzdjyeVM4.
Anyway…back to the Piestewa Freeway, which as you may know is named after Lori Ann Piestewa who was a soldier killed by the Fuckin’ Iraqi Army. Lori was a member of the Hopi tribe, she was the first Native American woman in history to die in combat while serving with the U.S. military and the first woman in the U.S. armed forces killed in the 2003 invasion (Non Choice War since we needed Kuwaiti oil, I do like driving my internal combustion engines machines) of Iraq.
Arizona’s Piestewa Peak is named in her honor as well after White Arizona finally figured out that the word “Squaw” is a bastardized French word (I think) that means “pussy.” And I don’t mean a feline; I am talking about what Donald Trump thinks you can grab like it has a handle. Although maybe his cyborg Melanie did come with a handle on her pussy…like he say’s “who knows?” I mean…have you ever noticed how her eyes move back and forth…kind of creepy…don’t you think? I think they need to redesign and rebuild the eyes.
I really love how the “Religious Right”, like our former participant and full time apologist and deflector for the Yarnell Hill Fire Team…Bob (formerly known as RTS, or Robert) embraced that coke snorting potential next President of the United States of America whore Donald Trump. I don’t think it is fair to call all of the women he whored around with whores when he is the real whore. What are we now…French…WTF? Anyway…I am pretty sure all of those women did not come with handles on their “pussies” so what has Donald been grabbing and holding onto down there anyway…WTF…Over?
That traffic in the valley can turn even the best person into a bad person. As I have said before, I spent a lot of time commuting from the Phoenix are they call Paradise Valley (not the fabulous wealthy little city within a city named Paradise Valley, I am talking about the adjoining Phoenix neighborhood which is sandwiched between what most people think this the really nice part of the valley…Scottsdale and what IS the really nice part of the valley, the City of Paradise Valley) which used to be at the end of Dreamy Draw when I worked in the valley from 1992 until 1997.
During that period of time…”They” condemned thousands of homes that lay in between Phoenix proper and Paradise Valley to obtain the land needed to build the Piestewa Freeway. Thousands of family homes that had been there in that neighborhood for decades were condemned through “Eminent Domain” because that was the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Just like they did to the neighborhood that used to exist where Jerry Colangelo’s monument to the top one percent…otherwise known as Donald Trump’s base (other than the Religious Right and the blue collar, non college educated white people who have been lied to by the Great Deceiver and one Black Guy who always shows up holding a Black People Support Donald Trump sign. FYI – that guy has an extensive criminal history for murder, but WTF, Donald Trump can’t be particular in where he finds his supporters…can he?) which was paid for by the tax payers of Maricopa County (glad I moved back to New Mexico and missed that tax increase).
Anyway…I spent the better part of five years driving by those thousands of family homes as they tore them down block by block…it was quite a site to witness and now it is like they never existed…ever. And then by the time I got back to Phoenix (I couldn’t keep a job for every long and I think we all know why…don’t we?) they had finished the “51” and it is beautiful although it never helped me get to Central and Van Buren (Ground Zero for Phoenix) because by then, we were living in the White Flight Paradise of Anthem…God Bless America!
So…my point is (Did I lose you?) it is like J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in the “Lord of the Rings”, “I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo. “So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
So the bottom line is this…fuck the lying, opportunistic, cheating, con artist, money grubbing Helms who are trying to steal money from the tax payers of Arizona through a fraudulent law suit, just like so many others are. They should have condemned some of their land to give access to the park for the masses instead of just for the elites.
Oh…and one more thing. I will attempt to answer your question, “How do the citizens NOT have a case?” when I get back. I have to go pick up my Teyrx at the welding shop. The Woodsman is right, I do break things…a lot. : (
Thank you Gary. I agree that giving access to the deployment area for the interested public would be meaningful and shouldn’t be limited to the elite.
I am wondering if this is the only deployment site that is so near private property?
There is only one other hotshot “deployment site” (fire shelters being used) and that is from the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain in Colorado and it involved the deaths of an entire squad (9) of Prineville Hotshots from Oregon.
The only other two sites where hotshots were burned over and killed are from the Loop Fire and I am unsure of the land ownership around it but it is probably all National Forest.
There isn’t any problem with public access to the site where the Mormon Lake Hotshots died on the slope of Battlement Mesa on the Battlement Creek Fire since a main county road runs through the entire area which is all Public Lands managed by the BLM.
I don’t know what kind of memorial is on the Loop Fire site but there isn’t much on the site of the Battlement Creek Fire and what is at the site was put there and is maintained by the Grand Valley Fire Department.
It used to be called the Parachute Fire Department. It is all a little confusing since they even changed the name of the nearby city that is associated with that fire from Grand Valley back to Parachute, which is what it was originally called, but it was named Grand Valley during the Battlement Creek Fire in 1976.
Nobody except the local fire department did anything to even recognize the deaths that occurred on that fire which included a slurry bomber pilot for 30 years until the USFS decided to have a staff ride about the fire, although there still isn’t any memorial by anyone other than the Grand Valley Fire Department there.
Here are some photos of what is at the site itself and what is at the big memorial built and maintained by the GVFD at a rest stop on the interstate. As a bonus, you will be able to see what yours truly looked like in 2006 when I attended the staff ride as a subject matter expert.
I am standing with my assistant crew boss (Bill Moulton, on my left) for all seven years I was a crew boss and my old friend who is the the man who trained me as a hotshot sawyer (Hardy Blomeke who is on my right). Bill went on to a career managing helicopter operations in Southeast Alaska and Hardy went on to become a supervisory smokejumper who jumped primarily out of the base in Missoula.
But like all jumpers, Hardy jumped out of everywhere there is an airport with fires nearby. Hardy jumped for more than THIRTY (30) years…OMG.
As you will see, both Bill and Hardy have the body types of the people who make the best hotshots. I have the body type of someone who had to work harder to get up the mountain, and back down the mountain and then back up the mountain…repeat.
It is hard (impossible) for my to convey to you the overwhelming effort that was put into the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots compared to any of the deaths of any other wildland firefighters in history. And that was before they built a memorial park in their honor.
Do you think Karen Fann and a whole bunch of other people have really GUILTY consciences and they are all trying really, really, hard to compensate for something terrible they either caused or directly on indirectly contributed to. I sure the fuck do!
On a scale of one (1) to ten (10)…what was done for the El Cariso, Mormon Lake and Prineville Hotshots would be a one ((1) and what was done for Granite Mountain is a one hundred (100).
So…WTF..Over?
http://ourfiregods.com/battlementcreekfire.html
FYI. those are drip torches with the names of the dead hotshots on them on the slope and a flagpole with a plaque at the site of the bomber crash.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
FYI – I am standing directly in front of the plaque at the rest area Battlement Mesa is in the background.
FYI – Battlement Mesa is only about 30 miles from Storm King Mountain and almost every primary and contributing factor in the deaths of the Mormon Lake Hotshots are IDENTICAL to almost every primary and contributing factor in the deaths of the Prineville Hotshots 18 years later.
But I am the ONLY person who has ever made that connection and the ONLY person who gives a fuck about it as of tonight. But I will update you if that ever changes. It’s not that I am bitter or angry or….anything.
And the last thing I want to do is to cast any shadow on what has and continues to motivate the Grand Valley Fire Department to do what they have done and continue to do.
BUT…the Battlement Creek Fire occurred from a re-burn (which is a REALLY big no-no and cause for epic shame and ridicule to be heaped on the head of any poor dumb ass that signs off on a fire being out and then having it come back as a re-burn in the world of professional wildland firefighters and could end someone’s career back in the day…for structure firefighters who play at being wildland firefighters…not so much) from a fire that they took the original suppression effort on (which was on private land). They also took the suppression effort on the re-burn when it got away from them, so….
Big G said:
“BUT…the Battlement Creek Fire occurred from a re-burn (which is a REALLY big no-no and cause for epic shame and ridicule to be heaped on the head of any poor dumb ass that signs off on a fire being out and then having it come back as a re-burn in the world of professional wildland firefighters and could end someone’s career back in the day…”
I say: You damn skippy….it’s like a naval officer running aground, punching a hole in the hull & sinking your ship due to preventable circumstances. EPIC shame is right.
Hey Gary, I think you need to have a custom tube-frame buggy built up for you…it would be way cheaper than the repair bills you have ongoing due to your consistent pattern of exceeding the design capabilities of factory off-road vehicles. Your welcome. Haha! (design it to run a Cummins 4bt engine for torque, durability, & longevity…no tuner kits, just run it with good fuel/filters!)
Woodsman
That is an OUTSTANDING idea and something I have considered and have already tried to sell to my financial backer. Unfortunately that idea has three major drawbacks that will prevent me from executing said plan.
1. A machine like you have described and I would in fact need, would break the bank and exceed my allowable discretionary funds…otherwise known as my allowance. In addition to my dear wife’s patience and understanding, which is already close to the breaking point. Although it does sound like you might be able to build it for me or at least advise.
The only reason I am still in the game at all is because after more than 30 years of rarely having me home, my dear wife has worked very hard to keep me gone as much as possible the last 10 years.
I think my dear wife MAY still love me on some deep molecular level, but most of all…she loves me GONE.
2. Those types of machines rely on speed and momentum to successfully navigate the shifting and towering sand in the Oregon Dunes National Recreation area because they are NOT four wheel drive.
And I am afraid at those speeds I would kill myself and I do like to PUSH the envelope, but I do not have a DEATH WISH that I am aware of.
3. I like to explore the trails that I should not be going down and those are usually in wooded area with heavy vegetation and with narrow, winding paths to remote locations and machines like that have to stay in the open areas because they need room to haul ass.
I do however…have some really good news for everyone. I have made some great new friends at the most manly shop I have ever been into…I mean it has it all.
Steel, flames, sparks, huge machines that bend and shape steel and more steel, large gruff burly men with beards wearing grease stained filthy coveralls who have dirty faces and even dirtier hands and talk worse than hotshots, but have hearts of gold…my kind of people. And did I mention that they work with mountains of STEEL?
So…if you ever need a great welding shop that does GREAT work at reasonable prices and has been in downtown Olympia for more than 90 years, look no further;
http://www.zeiglersweldingwa.com/
Can you speak, or in this case write, about Karen fann and others who you believe have a guilty conscious regarding what happened to granite mountain? For me this is very important and because I am fairly new to this forum I may have missed something.
Diane ask, “Can you speak, or in this case write,”
Yes, I can. It will however, take me a long time to get to something like that because this is a very complicated case, Diane. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head.
Whoops, I also got lost on answering your question when it comes to the South Canyon Fire, it has a very nice memorial on USFS land on Storm King Mountain that is fully accessible to members of the public.
Bob Powers has talked about a nice memorial at the site of his fathers death and 13 or 14 missionary and part time wildland firefighters that is also fully accessible on the site of the Rattlesnake Fire.
I don’t know anything about any other memorial sites where other wildland firefighters have died.
I got a little lost on that one myself, and so I failed to say they originally called the 51 the Squaw Peak Freeway after Squad Peak which is runs right by. That all fell apart when someone informed them that squaw meant pussy to early French fur trappers.
After all…France didn’t sent there best people to the New World…they sent their rapists, fornicators, murderers, drug dealers (the drug of alcohol), thieves and I assume…some good people as well (said with an extremely doubtful voice, eye rolling and cynicism although that is hard to imitate in this format).
Although seriously…check out Melanie’s Trumps eyes the next time they wind her up and send her out in public…her eyes dart back and forth and I think she is really creepy looking.
Although she does have that pouty, squinty eye look that was perfected by Ben Stiller and Owen Wilson in Zoolander. So…maybe she really is a model…a model CYBORG that is!
Oh… and one more thing since I am railing against the Fuckin’ Republicans tonight or in this case…this morning.
If ANYONE doesn’t want to accept the results of next week elections and the will of the majority of voters in choosing the next leader of our republic that has stood for well over two centuries and takes up muskets (or AR-15, M-4) against our duly elected government be they Fuckin’ Democrats or Fuckin’ Republicans; here ye, here ye!
I know exactly what medicine will cure what ails you. And if I were in charge…the 1st Armored Division with the 82nd Airborne Division and a Marine Expeditionary Force will DELIVER it to you…free of charge.
Bring your A-Game MF’s…because you are going to need it.
WTKTT,
As always you have provided a comprehensive answer.
What a shame that those who were asked to participate (many of them anyways) refused.
So it ultimately was the duty of the sherrif’s dept to evacuate Yarnell citizens?
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 8, 2016 at 8:36 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> So it ultimately was the duty of the sherrif’s dept
>> to evacuate Yarnell citizens?
Yes… but they ( YCSO employees ) were ( as is usually the case ) ‘depending’ on the people running the fire ( Arizona Forestry employees ) to tell them WHEN it should happen.
At 12:00 PM ( NOON ) that day… ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) took over as ‘Air Attack’ for the morning ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ), who needed to go and refuel.
Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark testified to ADOSH that even on their ‘first pass’ around the fire shortly after arriving… THEY could ‘see’ that the fire was GOING to go into the Yarnell area THAT day… during THAT ‘burn cycle’.
There was ‘no doubt’ in their minds… given the ‘current fire behavior’ they were witnessing from the air, the terrain and fuel loads, and the fact that these men were also perfectly aware of the ‘weather predictions’ for later that afternoon.
They were so sure of their ‘conclusions’… that is the reason they began laying that massive ( and expensive ) retardant line all the way west-to-east across that middle bowl. They felt someone had to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell from what was GOING to happen later that day.
They passed this ‘report/prediction’ on directly to the newly-arrived ‘Division Z’ person ( Rance Marquez )… but anyone listening to the popular ‘Air to Ground’ channel would have heard the same report.
This ‘report/prediction’ about what was GOING to happen later that day from these professionals in Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ SHOULD have caused an ‘evacuation’ to begin on that south end of the fire… but it did not.
‘Fire command’ just continued to rely solely on these arbitrary ‘trigger points’ that had been chosen by SPGS1 Gary Cordes… which ( as we all know ) eventually turned out to be woefully inadequate and did not allow the TIME for a ‘proper’, orderly evacuation of Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
**
** ARIZONA STATE PARKS APPEARS TO HAVE AN ‘EASEMENT’ FOR
** THE HIKING TRAIL ACROSS STATE TRUST LAND… BUT IT IS ONLY 15 FEET WIDE.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 31, 2016 at 5:14 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> can I ask-
>> if it was to go to auction- how much portion wise of this park could end up in
>> a private citizens hand and can that change the whole park in itself?
>> Can the private citizen not comply to its usage of the path made by ASMP from
>> highway 89 and as well the parking lot; who has legal ownership of it?
Regarding a ‘right of way’ and an ‘auction’… after a little more ‘digging’ it appears that this ‘auction’ has already taken place.
Arizona State Parks DOES appear to have obtained legal ‘right of way’ permission(s) ( and ‘easement’ ) for the hiking trail that they built across Arizona State Trust Land ( Section 16, Township 10 north, Range 05 west )… but it is only a ‘right-of-way easement’ ( they still do not OWN the land )… and it is only 15 feet wide for the entire length of the ‘hiking trail’.
In other words… just 7.5 feet on either side of the ‘center’ of the hiking trail itself.
Anyone who stays a little more than a body length away from the ‘edges’ of the hiking trail is still FULLY on ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ and not even walking IN or ON the Arizona Parks ‘Right of Way’.
Since Arizona State Parks was requesting a ‘rental’ of an ‘easement’ that was going to last more than 50 years… Arizona State Law REQUIRED that ‘right of way’ to be granted via a PUBLIC auction.
On December 3, 2015… The State of Arizona Land Department issued the following “Notice of Auction’ for a ‘Perpetual Right of Way’ on the parcel of State Trust Land just south of the new Arizona GM Memorial State Park…
https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/16-118208%20notice.pdf
The Arizona State Trust Land Department’s own ‘File number’ for this transaction became ( and remains ) 16-118208.
The same ‘announcement’ was also printed in the ‘public notices’ section of BOTH the Arizona “Capitol Times” newspaper AND the “Prescott Daily Courier”.
Arizona State Law not only requires a PUBLIC AUCTION to take place for any ‘Rights of Way’ on Arizona State Trust Land that will be for more than 50 years… State Law also requires that the ‘public auction’ for that ‘Right of Way’ be ‘advertised’ for at least 10 weeks prior to the auction.
This requirement appears to have also been met by the Arizona State Trust Land department.
So… since it WAS ‘advertised publicly’ ( as required by law )… it cannot be said that this ‘Right of Way’ auction took place in ‘secret’… but notice in the actual announcement that at NO TIME does it say this ‘Right of Way’ auction had ANYTHING to do with ‘Arizona State Parks’, or the new ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’… or even that the ‘Right of Way’ was actually being requested to serve as the ‘entranceway’ to the State Park itself.
The ONLY ‘clue’ what this ‘easement’ request was FOR in the ‘announcement’ was the simple blurb that it was for a ‘Non-Motorized Recreational Trail’.
So you would have had to have been ‘in the know’ and/or ‘in the loop’ regarding this ‘advertised auction’ to really have any idea this was, in fact, the request by Arizona State Parks for a ‘Right of Way’ to the upcoming ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’.
Here is the full ‘text’ of that December 3, 2015 ‘announcement’ from the Arizona State Land Department…
——————————————————————————————-
ARIZONA STATE LAND DEPARTMENT
1616 WEST ADAMS STREET, PHOENIX, ARIZONA 85007
PUBLIC AUCTION SALE NO. 16-118208
PERPETUAL RIGHT OF WAY EASEMENT
Pursuant to A.R.S. Title 37, notice is hereby given that the state of Arizona through its Arizona State Land Department ( herein called ASLD ), will sell at Public Auction to the highest and best bidder at 11:00 a.m. on Tuesday, February 16, 2016, at the Cortez Street entrance of the Yavapai County Courthouse, Prescott, Arizona,
A perpetual right of way easement for the purpose of a Non-Motorized Recreational
Trail situated in Yavapai County to wit:
TOWNSHIP 10 NORTH, RANGE 5 WEST, G&SR B&M, YAVAPAI COUNTY, ARIZONA
PARCEL: M&B THRU E2, E2NENW, SECTION 16.
CONTAINING 2.13 ACRES, MORE OR LESS.
BENEFICIARY:
PERMANENT COMMON SCHOOLS ( INMDEMNITY SELECTIONS )
For a complete legal description of the land, prospective bidders are advised to examine the right of way application file as well as all pertinent files of ASLD.
Said right of way easement has been valued at $2,400.00 and consists of 2.13 acres, more or less.
Additional requirements and conditions of this right of way are available and may be viewed at the Arizona State Land Department, 1616 West Adams Street, Phoenix, Arizona.
The complete file associated with the described land is open to public inspection at the ASLD, 1616 West Adams Street, Phoenix, Arizona, from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., exclusive of holidays and weekends.
Please direct any questions regarding this Public Auction to the Rights of Way Section of the Real Estate Division of ASLD at (602) 542-4098.
This auction notice is available on the ASLD’s web site at h t t p : //www.azland.gov.
Each potential bidder must show ASLD’s representative a cashier’s check made payable to the Arizona State Land Department in the amount specified under Terms of Sale Paragraph (A) below.
TERMS OF SALE:
(A) At the time of sale the successful bidder must pay the following by a cashier’s check:
(1) The value of the right of way, which is $2,400.00;
(2) A Selling and Administrative Fee of 3% of the value of the right of way, which is $72.00;
(3) Reimbursable Estimated Advertising Fee, which is $2,500.00. The total amount due at the time of sale is $4,972.00 ( less $2,500.00 if the successful bidder is the applicant for a total amount due of $2,472.00 ).
(B) Within 30 days after the auction date the successful bidder must pay the full balance of the amount bid for the right of way and pay a Selling and Administrative Fee of 3% of the purchase price for the right of way less the amount paid under (A) (2) above.
(C) No Selling and Administrative Fee shall be collected by ASLD if the successful bidder at auction is the beneficiary of the land trust.
(D) Within 30 days after the auction date the successful bidder shall be required to pay the actual legal advertising cost, less the amount paid under (A)(3) above.
BIDDING INFORMATION:
(A) The time of sale shall be deemed to be the time of declaration of the highest and best bidder. The bidding will begin at the total value of the right of way. A bid for less than the value of the right of way easement or by a party who has not inspected the right of way and/or the associated files and records of ASLD will not be considered.
(B) All bidders must sign an affidavit stating that they have undertaken due diligence in preparation for the auction and that their representative is authorized to bid and bind the bidder. It is the bidder’s responsibility to research the records of local jurisdictions and public agencies regarding this property.
(C) Pursuant to A.R.S. §37-240.B, the successful bidder must be authorized to transact business in the state of Arizona no later than three (3) business days after the auction. The successful bidder must sign an affidavit stating it is the successful bidder and sign a Certification Statement pursuant to A.R.S. Title 37 and the Rules of ASLD.
(D) If the successful bidder fails to complete the payment as stated in the auction notice together with the additional required fees within 30 days from the auction date, all amounts paid at the time of auction by the successful bidder will be forfeited.
(E) In the event of forfeiture, the ASLD Commissioner may declare that the bid placed before the final bid accepted is the highest bid, and that the bidder has five (5) days after notification by ASLD to pay by cashier’s check all amounts due.
GENERAL INFORMATION:
The ASLD may cancel this auction in whole or in part at any time prior to the acceptance of a final bid.
A protest to this sale must be filed within 30 days after the first day of publication of this announcement and in accordance with A.R.S. §37-301.
Persons with a disability may request a reasonable accommodation such as a sign language interpreter, by contacting the ADA Coordinator, at (602) 364-0875. Requests should be made as early as possible to allow time to arrange the accommodation.
Date: December 3, 2015
Ruben Ojeda (for)
Lisa A. Atkins
State Land Commissioner
——————————————————————————————-
And… sure enough… that ‘public auction’ of this ‘right of way’ easement across Arizona State Trust Land Parcel ‘Section 16, Township 10 north, Range 05 west’, DID eventually take place in February of 2016… ‘apparently’ at 11:00 AM on the day published in the original ‘announcement’… Tuesday, February 16, 2016.
I say ‘apparently’ because of the following ‘discrepancy’ regarding the actual DATE / TIME of the ‘auction’ itself.
According to a database entry at ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’, the auction actually took place the day BEFORE the date that was published in the original ‘announcement’.
The ‘announcement’ said the auction would take place at the Cortez Street entrance of the Yavapai County Courthouse, Prescott, Arizona at 11:00 AM on Tuesday, February 16, 2016.
The ‘auction result’ entry in the ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’ database says it actually took place at that same announced location, and at the same announced TIME… but the day BEFORE… February 15, 2016.
However.. .the same ‘database entry’ also DOES say ‘Tuesday’.
February 15, 2016 was a ‘Monday’ ( and it was also actually a HOLIDAY… “President’s Day” ).
But if the datbase entry DOES, in fact, say ‘Tuesday’… then it’s possible someone entering the ‘auction results’ got the ‘day of the week’ right… but screwed up the DATE.
There was only 1 bidder at that ‘public auction’ ( of course )… and it was ( of course ) ‘Arizona State Parks Department’.
Here is that entry deep down on the Arizona State Trust Land Department’s website where it is showing the ‘results’ of this ‘public auction’ for this ‘perpetual right of way’ across that ‘Section 16’ which is directly SOUTH of the new ‘Arizona State Park’…
https://land.az.gov/auction-results
—————————————————————-
Auction Date: FEB-15-2016 – 11:00 AM TUES
File Number: 16-118208
Type of Sale: Perpetual Right Of Way Easement
Location: T10N, R5W, Sec. 16
County: Yavapai
Acres: 2.13
Minimum Bid: $21,400.00
Winning Bid: $2,400.00
Successful Bidder: AZ State Parks
Number of bids: (1 bid/s)
—————————————————————–
( Continued next ‘Reply’ because of length limits )…
( Continued from above due to length limits )…
Notice above ( in that ‘auction results’ database entry ) the ‘discrepancy’ between the ‘Minimum Bid’ required and the actual ‘Winning Bid’.
There is ( apparently ) a $19,000 difference.
On the surface… it might LOOK like Arizona Parks got away with ‘cheating’ the citizens
of Arizona out of $19,000 for a ‘Right of Way’ that should have cost $21,400 but they
( Arizona Parks ) only paid $2,400 for it… but if you go back to the original ‘announcement’
( up above ) it does, in fact, say that the ‘right of way’ was only ‘valued’ at $2,400 ( and not $21,400 ).
So that just looks like more ‘typos’ on the part of whoever was creating this ‘auction result’
database entry there at Arizona State Trust Land Department. It looks like they MEANT
to enter a ‘Minimum Bid’ of $2,400… but ‘goofed’ and accidentally added a ‘1’ after they
typed the ‘2’ and it ended up reading $21,400 instead.
It bears repeating, however, that even though this PUBLIC AUCTION for this ‘Right of Way’
was required by Arizona Law ( since the ‘Right of Way’ was for more than 50 years )… the
‘auction’ that took place was NOT a ‘Land Sale’. It was simply a public ‘auction’ of the
advertised ‘Right of Way’. The winner of that ‘public auction’ for this ‘Right of Way’ ( Arizona
State Parks ) is still NOT the actual OWNER of the land on which they have built their
‘trail’ and installed most of the Granite Mountain Hotshot ‘memorial markers’.
‘Arizona State Land Department’ still OWNS that land ( on behalf of ALL of the citizens of
Arizona ), and NOT ‘Arizona State Parks’.
See the next ‘Reply’ for the proof that the ‘Right of Way’ that Arizona State Parks has been granted to traverse Arizona State Trust Lands is only 15 feet wide for the entire length of the hiking trail…
How come for this long when I called or did FOIA they could not tell me that instead a guy name Chris from attorney general office said they cant disclose that. They could have…ugh
Thank you wwtktt…how much for search time on that answer…smiles
Thank you.
Can you also give me the names who were granted permission to go to restricted area.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 2, 2016 at 2:58 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Thank you wwtktt…how much for search time
>> on that answer…smiles
No charge.
There are, however, two documents that are know KNOWN TO EXIST which are NOT available anywhere online.
1. The original APPLICATION ( as required by law ) from ‘Arizona State Parks ) for the ‘Right of Way’ across Arizona State Trust Land.
2. The final ‘written contract’ ( also required by law ) granting ‘Arizona State Parks’ the requested ‘Right of Way’.
BOTH of those documents are REQUIRED ( again, by law ) to have the COMPLETE ‘legal description’ of the ‘Right of Way’ being requested… AND the complete description of the ‘purpose’ is for the ‘Right of Way’, and the details about any/all planned ‘improvements’ or ‘construction’ that is to take place on the ‘Right of Way’ itself.
A ‘Right of Way’ that has been granted across Arizona State Trust Lands can ONLY be used for the ‘stated purpose’ in the original application… and if it is ever used for something else… Arizona State Land Department has the legal right to immediately ‘rescind’ the ‘Right of Way’.
And BOTH of those documents are sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere at the Arizona State Land Department’… under THEIR own File / Transaction Number 16-118208.
And they ( Arizona State Land Department ) also said, in their own ‘announcement’ back on December 3, 2015…
————————————————————-
Additional requirements and conditions of this right of way are available and may be viewed at the Arizona State Land Department, 1616 West Adams Street, Phoenix, Arizona.
The complete file associated with the described land is open to public inspection at the ASLD, 1616 West Adams Street, Phoenix, Arizona, from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., exclusive of holidays and weekends.
Please direct any questions regarding this Public Auction to the Rights of Way Section of the Real Estate Division of ASLD at (602) 542-4098.
————————————————————-
Key phrase: “The complete file associated with the described land is open to public inspection at the ASLD.”
So no FOIA or ‘Arizona Open Records’ request is required.
Anyone can walk into the ‘Arizona State Land Department’ at ANY time during normal business hours and just say…
“I would like to see the complete FILE for transaction 16-118208., please..”…
…and they are REQUIRED to let you see it ( the WHOLE FILE… the ‘original application’ and final ‘contract’ included. )
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Can you also give me the names who were granted
>> permission to go to restricted area.
If you are talking about prior to the actual ‘purchase’ of the land by Arizona State Parks department… and just the ‘timespan’ when there was a ‘closure’ issued for the land by ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’…
…I doubt that such a ‘list of names’ officially exists anywhere.
It is perfectly obvious that during the time that land was CLOSED… people like Holly Neill and her cohort Alan Sinclair were given FULL access to that land to do whatever they wanted… along with others… but I doubt that anyone was ‘writing that down’.
Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm was acting as the ‘gatekeeper’ at that time ( and still is? )… but I doubt he was keeping any ‘official records’ about who he was just ‘letting out there’… or who he, himself, was TOLD to just “let out there”.
Whoops. Typo up above.
I said “know KNOWN” when I meant to say “now KNOWN”.
Section above should have read like this…
————————————————————-
There are, however, two documents that are now KNOWN TO EXIST which are NOT available anywhere online.
1. The original APPLICATION ( as required by law ) from ‘Arizona State Parks ) for the ‘Right of Way’ across Arizona State Trust Land.
2. The final ‘written contract’ ( also required by law ) granting ‘Arizona State Parks’ the requested ‘Right of Way’.
—————————————————————
BOTH of those ‘documents’ ( required by law ) would be attached to Arizona State Land Department File / Transaction number 16-118208.
** ARIZONA STATE TRUST LAND PARCEL VIEWER…
As it turns out… there is actually a ‘secret’ MAP LAYER available on the ‘Arizona State Trust Land Parcel Viewer’ running on their own web server which will show you any ‘Right of Way’ that the ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’ acknowledges as having been ‘granted’ across ‘State Trust Land’ ( which they still OWN ).
The following link shows the ‘State Park’ parcel and it also has the ‘layer’ turned on which shows a 15-foot-wide ‘right of way’ for the ‘hiking trail’ ( but nothing for the parking lot )…
http://gis.azland.gov/webapps/parcel/?loc=-112.7776,34.2128,15&layers=0,2,1
NOTE: You can use the little left-to-right ‘slider’ tool in the upper right corner of the screen ( under the square tool icons ) to adjust the ‘opacity’ of the BLUE ‘State Trust Land’ parcels.
Slide it to the LEFT to make the ‘BLUE’ State Land parcel rectangles ‘fade out’. The 15-foot-wide ‘right of way’ that follows the trail will NOT ‘disappear’ even when the ‘BLUE’ rectangles do… so you can then see exactly where this 15-foot-wide ‘right of way’ traverses the terrain on the satellite photo map background.
You should be able to see a ‘black line’ running across Arizona State Trust Land Parcel ‘Section 16, Township 10 north, Range 05 west’ which lies just south of the ‘diagonal lines’ rectangle representing the actual ‘State Park’ boundaries.
You can ZOOM DOWN quite a ways… and see that this ‘black line’ follows the ‘hiking trail’ that has been built there across that Arizona State Trust Land parcel, and if you ZOOM DOWN far enough… you can then use their own ‘measuring tool’ ( or refer to satellite image objects for scale ) and see that the ‘Right of Way’ that has been ‘granted’ to Arizona State Parks is only 15 feet wide for the entire length of the ‘hiking trail’.
As in… just 7.5 feet, in either direction, from the CENTER of the hiking trail.
What is interesting to NOTE is that even according to ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ departments own records… that 15-foot-wide ‘Right of Way’ does NOT include the ‘parking lot’ that has been built there along Highway 89 that is serving as the actual ‘entrance’ to this new ‘Arizona State Park’.
According to ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’… that ‘Right of Way’ only
STARTS about 100 feet up the ‘trail’ itself, after leaving the ‘parking lot’… which
is right about where the first ‘Granite Mountain Hotshot memorial marker’ has
been installed on the ‘hiking trail’. I believe that FIRST ‘memorial marker’ along
the ‘hiking trail’ is the one dedicated to GM Superintedent Eric Marsh.
Followup…
** PROOF OF ’10 WEEK PUBLICATION’ PRIOR TO THE ‘RIGHT OF WAY’
** AUCTION, AS REQUIRED BY ARIZONA LAW
I said ( up above )…
—————————————————————————
On December 3, 2015… The State of Arizona Land Department issued the following “Notice of Auction’ for a ‘Perpetual Right of Way’ on the parcel of State Trust Land just south of the new Arizona GM Memorial State Park…
h t t p s : //land.az.gov/sites/default/files/16-118208%20notice.pdf
The Arizona State Trust Land Department’s own ‘File number’ for this transaction became ( and remains ) 16-118208.
The same ‘announcement’ was also printed in the ‘public notices’ section of BOTH the Arizona “Capitol Times” newspaper AND the “Prescott Daily Courier”.
Arizona State Law not only requires a PUBLIC AUCTION to take place for any ‘Rights of Way’ on Arizona State Trust Land that will be for more than 50 years… State Law also requires that the ‘public auction’ for that ‘Right of Way’ be ‘advertised’ for at least 10 weeks prior to the auction.
This requirement appears to have also been met by the Arizona State Trust Land department.
——————————————————————————–
Here is some PROOF that this 10 week ‘public advertisement’ requirement WAS met, in this case.
** Arizona “Capitol Times” Public Notices Archives…
** Arizona Newspapers Association
A ‘Search’ of ‘Public Notices’ at this ‘Arizona Newspapers Association’ website for the Arizona State Land Department ‘File Number’ of 16-118208 then produces 21 ‘hits’…
———————————————
Public Notice Search Results
21 Public Notices matched your query.
Now Displaying Public Notice 1 through 20
———————————————-
** Record of it being printed in the “Prescott Daily Courier” Newspaper…
The following URL says that the ‘notice’ for the ‘Right of Way’ auction was printed in the the Prescott Daily Courier for the first time on December 11, 2015
http://www.publicnoticeads.com/AZ/search/view.asp?T=PN&id=22/12112015_22997262.htm
From that page…
——————————————————————
County: Yavapai
Printed In: Daily Courier (Prescott)
Printed On: 2015/12/11
Public Notice ID: 22997262
ARIZONA STATE LAND DEPARTMENT
1616 WEST ADAMS STREET
PHOENIX, ARIZONA 85007
PUBLIC AUCTION SALE NO. 16-118208
PERPETUAL RIGHT OF WAY EASEMENT
( Etc… rest of ‘announcement’ follows )
——————————————————————
** Record of it being printed in the Arizona “Capitol Times” Newspaper…
The following URL says that the ‘notice’ for the ‘Right of Way’ auction was printed in the the Arizona “Capitol Times” newspaper for the first time on December 11, 2015
http://www.publicnoticeads.com/AZ/search/view.asp?T=PN&id=25/12142015_23000808.htm
From that page…
———————————————-
County: Maricopa
Printed In: Arizona Capitol Times (Phoenix)
Printed On: 2015/12/11
Public Notice ID: 23000808
ARIZONA STATE LAND DEPARTMENT
1616 WEST ADAMS STREET
PHOENIX, ARIZONA 85007
PUBLIC AUCTION SALE NO. 16-118208
PERPETUAL RIGHT OF WAY EASEMENT
( Etc… rest of ‘announcement’ follows )
———————————————-
Records at this ‘Arizona Newspapers Association’ website then also show that this same ‘announcement’ was continually ‘reprinted’ in BOTH newspapers ( The Prescott Daily Courier and the Arizona Capitol Times ) every 7 days after the initial printing… right up until February 12, 2016… just a few days before the ‘auction’ itself took place in Prescott.
Dates the ‘announcement’ was published in the ‘Arizona Capitol Times’…
( 10 times ) – 12/11, 12/18, 12/25, 2015, 1/1, 1/8, 1/15, 1/22, 1/29, 2/5, 2/12
Dates the ‘announcement’ was published in the ‘Prescott Daily Courier’…
( 10 times ) – 12/11, 12/18, 12/25, 2015, 1/1, 1/8, 1/15, 1/22, 1/29, 2/5, 2/12
NOTE: These 10 separate weekly publications match the ‘requirement’ in Arizona Law that any ‘auction’ of a ‘Right of Way’ for Arizona State Trust Lands that is going to be more than 50 years is REQUIRED to go to ‘auction’ AND be ‘publicly advertised’ for at least 10 weeks prior to the ‘Right of Way’ auction itself.
So it looks like ‘Arizona State Land Department’ really did meet this lega requirement, in this particular case.
**
** THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN MEMORIAL STATE PARK PARKING LOT, HIKING TRAIL,
** AND MOST OF THE ‘MEMORIAL MARKERS’ FOR THE HOTSHOTS ARE ALL STILL
** ON ARIZONA STATE TRUST LAND, AND NOT WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF
** ‘THE NEW STATE PARK’ ITSELF…
This is just a followup to the discussion below.
Here is a direct link to Arizona State Trust Land Department’s own interactive/online ‘State Trust Land Parcel Viewer’ which shows the land they still own to the west and the south of the new ‘State Park’…
http://gis.azland.gov/webapps/parcel/?loc=-112.7412,34.2123,14&layers=3,2,0
The little rectangle with the ‘diagonal lines’ drawn on it is the ONLY land that has been ‘purchased’ for this new ‘Arizona State Park’. It represents that “South half of section 9, Township 10 north, Range 05 west” that was ‘purchased’ from Arizona State Trust Land Department by ‘Arizona Parks Department’.
All the BLUE rectangles that SURROUND this ‘new State Park’ represent land that is still fully ‘owned’ by Arizona State Trust Land Department, and is ( as per the name ) being held ‘in Trust’ for the benefit of ALL the citizens of Arizona.
And that land CANNOT just be ‘given away’ to ANYONE ( Arizona State Parks department included ). There is a constitutionally codified PROCESS by which any Arizona State Trust Land must be ‘sold’ in order for the proceeds to benefit the citizens of the State of Arizona.
If you ‘click’ the parcels on this ‘Interactive Map’… there are no indications that any ‘right of way’ or special ‘lease’ agreements ( or even any special ‘permissions’ ) are currently in place for ANY of that Arizona State Trust Land where the ‘hiking trail’ and the ‘parking lot’ have been constructed… and where 17 of the 19 Granite Mountain Crew ‘memorial markers’ have also been ‘installed’.
can I ask-
if it was to go to auction- how much portion wise of this park could end up in a private citizens hand and can that change the whole park in itself? Can the private citizen not comply to its usage of the path made by ASMP from highway 89 and as well the parking lot; who has legal ownership of it?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 31, 2016 at 5:14 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> can I ask-
>>
>> if it was to go to auction- how much portion wise of this park
>> could end up in a private citizens hand and can that change
>> the whole park in itself?
Well… since the CURRENT ‘owner’ of the land upon which the ‘parking lot’ and most of the ‘hiking trail’ was constructed is the ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’… THEY are the ones who could ‘decide’ to put that ‘parcel’ up for sale at auction.
And that ‘auction’ is ‘required by LAW’ to be a PUBLIC auction.
Just as was the case when the original ‘parcel’ of State Trust Land that is now the ‘State Park’ itself went ‘out for auction’… anyone who wins the PUBLIC auction is then the defacto ‘owner’ of the land.
So yes.. if a ‘private citizen’ ever became the owner of that parcel of land… it would be up to them whether or not to ‘continue’ any/all ‘easements’ or ‘rights of way’ that previously existed for that piece of land.
But there is still no ‘evidence’ that Arizona Parks even HAS any official ‘easements’ and/or ‘rights of way’ for the part of that State Trust land parcel where they built the parking lot, the hiking trail, and have now installed most of the ‘Hotshot Memorial Markers’ along that ‘hiking trail’ TO the actual ‘State Park’ land.
Maybe Arizona Parks really DOES have some kind of codified ‘easement’ and/or ‘agreement’ to be using that part of a State Trust Land parcel.
There is no evidence of that anywhere on the State Trust Land Department online computer system(s) ( which is supposed to list all ‘easements’ on a parcel… if there are any )… but I suppose that doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If there IS… then a number of things become relevant…
1. WHEN was this ‘easement’ granted… and by WHO?
2. How WIDE is this ‘easement’? How MUCH of that State Trust Land parcel now has some ‘granted easement’ across it?
Is it 20-40 feet on either side of the winding ‘hiking trail’?
Or is it MORE than that? Like 100-200 feet on ‘either side’ of the ‘hiking trail’?
If it exists… what are the exact ( codified ) ‘terms’ of this ‘easement’ that might have been ‘granted’ by the Arizona State Trust Land Department to the Arizona Parks Department?
If it exists… the EXACT ‘terms’ of the ‘easement’ and/or ‘agreement’ have to be WRITTEN DOWN somewhere… and there MUST be some kind of ‘document’ showing the ‘details’.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Can the private citizen not comply to its usage of the
>> path made by ASMP from highway 89 and as well the parking lot;
Yes. If/when a ‘private citizen’ becomes the ‘owner’ of that State Land parcel where the ‘parking lot’ and the ‘hiking trail’ now exists… it is up to the NEW OWNER to decide whether to ‘continue’ any existing ‘easements’ that might have existed before the land was sold.
Good example would be what happened the moment the State Land Department SOLD the ‘South half of section 9, Township 10 north, Range 05 west’ to the ‘Arizona Parks Department’ at that public auction held on the steps of the Prescott County Courthouse.
The MOMENT that ‘Arizona Parks’ was deemed the ‘successful bidder’ in that auction… then the existing LAND CLOSURES that had been issued by the previous owner ( Arizona State Trust Land Department ) were immediately ‘no longer in effect’.
It was, at that moment, up to the NEW OWNER ( Arizona State Parks department ) to decide which parts ( if any ) of the ‘parcel’ they just bought were now ‘closed’. and/or ‘off limits’… even to someone with a valid Arizona Trust Lands Hiking Permit.
That’s just one example of how the moment a piece of land ‘changes hands’… the NEW OWNER is the one who is now responsible for deciding what the ‘access’ to that land looks like… or whether any ‘easements’ that had existed BEFORE the ‘sale’ of the land will be ‘continued’.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> who has legal ownership of it?
According to the Arizona State Trust Land Department… THEY ( and ALL the citizens of Arizona for whom any land is ‘held in Trust’ ) are still the ‘legal owners’ of that parcel of land where the ‘parking lot’, most of the ‘hiking trail’, and ( now ) most of the ‘Hotshot Memorial Markers’ have been constructed / installed.
There is absolutely NO record of any ‘public auction’ having taking place ( as required by LAW for State Trust Lands ) regarding that ‘parcel’ of State Trust Land… nor is there any evidence whatsoever ( so far, anyway ) that any ‘easements’ across that land ( however WIDE or LONG ) have been officially ‘granted’ to the Arizona State Parks Department.
Reply to Diane lomas post on October 27, 2016 at 4:36 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> this also fits one of the hotshots’ text to family saying they
>> were going to protect a ranch.
There was never any such ‘text message’… or at least… it has never been PROVEN there was.
That LIE was first presented by Prescott Fireman ( and Union President ) Dan Bates, when he spoke at the original Toyota-Center Memorial Service for the Granite Mountain hotshots on July 9, 2013.
His ‘report’ to the crowd, from the podium, about such a ‘text message’ was then picked up and reprinted in the Los Angeles Times as if it was a verified FACT.
Thus proving the old saying that did not originate with Samuel Clemens ( Mark Twain ), but is very often attributed to him…
“A LIE can get halfway around the world before the TRUTH has a chance to put its boots on”
No such ‘text message’ ( at least anything saying “we’re going down to protect a ranch” ) was ever uncovered by ANY ‘official’ investigation… nor was there any mention of any such text message in any of the final investigation ‘reports’… ADOSH included.
The original C-SPAN Video feed of the Memorial Service is still sitting HERE…
https://www.c-span.org/video/?313826-1/vp-biden-speaks-service-arizona-firefighters
Below are just some of the things Dan Bates said at the podium at the memorial, including his initial LIE about the ‘text message’…
SIDENOTE: Dan Bates was, along with Darrell Willis, just another ‘preacher wanna-be’ that worked for the City of Prescott Fire Department… and his ‘speech’ at the memorial was chock full of Bible verses and the characterization of the hotshots as “Saints”…. and also the first presentation of the official reason for the tragedy being “God had a plan for these men on June 30, 2013″… which would then be ‘repeated’ a few weeks later in front of the media at the deployment site by the other ‘preacher wanna-be’ Darrell Willis. Dan Bates also got one of the longest ‘applause’ sequences during the memorial when he thought it was fitting to report how men of the crew finally ‘converted’ Brendan McDonough at the Thompson fire where he “accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his savior”.
—————————————————————————————————-
I believe these men were… and are… part of a divine plan. Saints, placing a guarded hand over Prescott. Our saints of Prescott were not boastful men. Hotshots never are.
I will remind you of Ephesians… book two… verses 8 and 9.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God… not of works… lest anyone should boast.”
Psalm 116 verse 5 tells us… “Precious in the sight of the lord is the death of his saints.”
Many were men of deep faith.
Many of the men gave their life to the lord Jesus Christ, our savior, in their time with Granite Mountain hotshots.
In June of this year, ministered by men of Granite Mountain, on the Thompson Ridge Fire in New Mexico, Brendan McDonough accepted the lord Jesus Christ, our Savior.
+55:08 ( Loud applause and whistles from the crowd begins and lasts for 12 seconds).
+55:20 ( Loud applause and whistling subsides ).
On June 30th 2013. The Granite Mountain Hotshots had fulfilled their purpose God had planned for them.
He called them home exactly how they wanted to go home.
+56:05
Just before the final hike in to start battling the fire, one of the firefighters was texting his mother.
The mother was concerned over the long month the men had been… had spent fighting fire in the 100 plus degree temperatures in Yarnell. She wanted them to rest.
The son replied…
“Mom… the fire’s getting big. There’s a ranch down there.
We need to go protect it. We will rest later.”
He closed by telling his mother he loved her. It was the last words she heard from him.
Isaiah 43 verse 2 tells us much.
“When you pass through waters… I will be with you… and when you pass through the rivers… they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire… you will not be burned. The flames will not set you ablaze.”
————————————————————————————————-
So here is Dan Bates first putting out the LIE that one of the hotshots had texted a message saying “We’re going to protect a ranch”…
————————————————————————————————-
Just before the final hike in to start battling the fire, one of the firefighters was texting his mother.
The mother was concerned over the long month the men had been… had spent fighting fire in the 100 plus degree temperatures in Yarnell. She wanted them to rest.
The son replied…
“Mom… the fire’s getting big. There’s a ranch down there.
We need to go protect it. We will rest later.”
He closed by telling his mother he loved her. It was the last words she heard from him.
————————————————————————————————-
Again… this was only on July 9 and the ‘investigations’ had just started.
By the time the ‘investigations’ completed… no such ‘text message’ had ever been found… but many people believed there was one just because preacher wanna-be Dan Bates said there was in his ‘speech’ at the memorial.
None of this means they ( Granite Mountain ) weren’t actually ‘motivated’ to ‘go and protect the ranch’. That still remains one of the possible reasons they left the ‘safe black’.
All it means is that this ‘text message’ first reported by Dan Bates remains an ‘unverified’ claim that many have just come to believe is a ‘fact’.
None of the mothers were ever interviewed. It could be highly likely the Bates would have intimate knowledge regarding texts, as he led the Department’s and Union’s efforts at interacting directly with the families.
*that* Bates
The ‘mothers’ were never officially ‘interviewed’ ( per se )… but some of them did cooperate fully with BOTH sets of ‘investigators’ ( SAIT and ADOSH ) and supplied copies of all the text messages ( and photos ) they received on June 30, 2013.
Still… no ‘text message’ ever surfaced like the one Dan Bates talked about during the memorial service, and the LA Times then treated that report from Bates as if it was a fact.
Dan Bates himself was also ( as far as we know ) never officially ‘interviewed’ by any ‘investigators’.
By the the time both investigations had completed… the only actual ‘evidence’ that had ever surfaced of any of GM hotshots having ‘texted’ their ‘mothers’ in the late afternoon of June 30, 2013 came down to TWO…
Scott Norris had texted a photo of the fire and message to his mother at 3:54 PM from the ‘last rest spot’ in the safe black.
Ditto for Wade Parker. He took his photo from the rest spot 2 minutes before Norris… but then didn’t actually text it this mother until 12 minutes later, at 4:04 PM.
But NEITHER of those text messages resemble what Dan Bates talked about at the memorial service… or contained any language about “going to protect a ranch”.
WantsToKnowTheTruth-
if you play around and really dig into any and all data you get incoming you will see there is public data of others texting on 6.30.13—I have it somewhere but with Wade’s bday so soon I think of him first…remember how he loved ball…we met one of his rival players from back in the day today here at Sonny’s and it was neat to hear his story—Wade loved ball so much that one year after he passed the World Series one…reckon his team…and Alicia was due to marry Wade this month that 2013- but there is alot of areas to learn about them like FOIAs…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh9Zf3JvbWY
1:31/1:42.
but YES there is all kind of blogs and websites that show actual texts from and to the GMHS who died— and you are right they were never interviewed.
I have a question about the route that the granite mountain hotshots took to try to reach the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Would the outcome have been any different for them if they had remained on the two track road and taken the “short cut down through Unburned fuel on what appeared to be a shorter distance to Boulder Springs Ranch? Also who besides workers for the ranch were present at the ranch on the afternoon of 6/30/2013? Which fire officials etc. ?
During the critical timeframe of 3:00-5:00 pm where were the major fire fighters and officials positioned?
Corrections- not taken shortcut
Reply to Diane lomas post on October 29, 2016 at 9:18 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> I have a question about the route that the granite
>> mountain hotshots took to try to reach the
>> Boulder Springs Ranch.
>>
>> Would the outcome have been any different for
>> them if they had remained on the two track
>> road and NOT taken the “short cut down through
>> Unburned fuel on what appeared to be a
>> shorter distance to Boulder Springs Ranch?
It has never been a ‘given’ that, if the Granite Mountain Hotshots had decided to STAY on that ‘two-track/trail’ that ended up near the Boulder Springs Ranch, that the outcome would have been any different that day.
It will forever remain ‘true’ that their only real SAFE option, circa 3:50 PM when they were ‘deciding what to do’, was to simply STAY WHERE THEY WERE, in the SAFE BLACK, let the fire ‘burn over’ the two-track they had used to hike up there that morning, and then just go ‘back down’ that same way when it was SAFE to do so.
That ‘wait period’ to do that would have actually only been about 20-30 minutes that day.
If they had just stayed where they were… there would have been plenty of ‘daylight’ left that day when it would have been perfectly safe for them to just hike back down from that ‘anchor spot’ the same way they had hiked UP to it that morning.
But we all know that didn’t happen.
They proceeded to go ahead and commit what is now known as “The Greatest Blunder in Wildland Firefighting History”.
As far as “what would have actually happened if they had STAYED on the two-track/trail known as the ‘alternate escape route”… there was a LONG discussion about this here in this ongoing Forum ( with a lot of necessary ‘math’ ) way back in November of 2013.
The link to that original discussion is below.
BOTTOM LINE: After doing all the ‘math’… it turns out that even if they had stayed on the ‘alternate escape route’… they probably would have reached the Boulder Springs Ranch ( BSR ) with just 3 minutes and 40 seconds to spare… but that is ONLY based on the assumption that GM would have been able to maintain about the same ‘rate of travel’ for the SECOND part of the journey on that two-track as they had ( supposedly ) been able to achieve during the FIRST part of the ‘journey’, from that ‘final rest location’ near the anchor point down to what is now known as the ‘Descent Point’, where they left the two-track and dropped down into the fuel-filled blind box canyon.
But even with the extra 3 minutes or so gained by staying on the ‘alternate escape route’… the ‘trip’ would still have probably involved a ‘mad dash’ for the last 200 yards or so to get inside the actual perimeter of the Ranch itself via that ‘draw’ just north of the Candy Cane Lane area.
At that point… they would have had to still hike NORTH… and directly AT the oncoming fireline just to reach the BSR itself.
Matter of fact… the reality is that by the time they HAD reached that ‘bottom’ of the ‘alternate escape route’ there in that ‘Candy Cane Lane’ area… the situation would have probably been so bad that they would have then just decided to ‘exit’ the area to the SOUTH, through the ‘Candy Cane Lane’ area… the same way Joy Collura and Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan had exited the area.
Contrary to what some believe… that ‘alternate escape route’ ( trail ) did not STAY ‘up on the ridges’ all the way to the BSR.
The ‘eastward’ leg of that ‘alternate escape route’ actually ‘descended’ into yet another ‘blind box canyon’ where the GM Hotshots would have been unable to see ANYTHING that was actually happening with the fireline.
The original SAIR only published the following ‘distances’…
—————————————————————-
Page 20 of the SAIR…
Figure 7 entitled… “Southern portion of the Yarnell Hill Fire” contains a ‘Legend’ for the symbols and lines on the topographical map but ALSO contains a small insert saying…
“Descent Path Statistics”.
The ‘insert’ then says exactly this…
Lunch Spot to Descent Point: 0.95 Mi., 1,678 yards.
Descent Point to Deployment Site: 0.27 Mi., 470 yards.
Deployment Site to Boulder Springs Ranch: 0.38 Mi., 677 yards.
Lunch Spot to Boulder Springs Ranch: 1.06 Mi, 2,825 yards.
—————————————————————
Forum participant ‘calvin’ was the one who first took this information ( and other information available back in November of 2013 ) and ‘did the math’ and came up with an estimated ‘rate of travel’ for the GM Hotshots for both the first part of their journey after leaving the ‘safe black’ ( up on the high-ridge two-track )… and then from the ‘Descent Point’ down to the ‘Deployment site’.
That conversation then turned to the ‘actual length of the alternate escape route’ and some more ‘math’ regarding whether or not they would have made much better TIME staying on the visible ‘trail’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch ( the alternate escape route ) versus trying to take the ‘shortcut’ through the fuel-filled blind box canyon.
Here’s a link to that original discussion ( with all the ‘math’ )…
** On November 24, 2013 at 10:49 pm,
** WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) posted…
** THE REAL LENGTH OF THE ALTERNATE ESCAPE ROUTE
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4565
From that original posting…
———————————————————–
At about the middle of the eastern leg of the alternate escape route there is a ‘blind trap’ where, if that’s where the fire had caught them, they most probably would have died there. No visibility at all. No place to deploy. Nowhere to run.
That point is exactly here…
Latitude: 34.216114
Longitude: -112.775495
34.216114, -112.775495
————————————————————-
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> Also who besides workers for the ranch were
>> present at the ranch on the afternoon of 6/30/2013?
>> Which fire officials etc. ?
If you mean the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ ( BSR )… there is still some confusion about EXACTLY ‘when’ owners Lee and DJ Helm actually ‘returned’ there that day.
They had been out running ‘errands’ that day and they had also been visiting with friends in Peeples Valley. At SOME POINT in the afternoon… they returned to their home ( the BSR ) and began preparing to ‘ride out’ the fire there. They were putting animals into barns, etc, right up until the moment when the fireline was about to reach the northern perimeter of their property and they were forced to go inside and just ‘ride it out’ inside the main residence.
Lee and DJ Helm were interviewed by ADOSH investigators… but they didn’t say much.
They DID, however, answer a direct question from ADOSH investigators about whether they SAW any ‘fireman’ there at their home at any time prior to when they arrived back there that afternoon and the ‘burnover’ itself… and they said that they did NOT.
NOTE: There is also no evidence, anywhere in the public record, of Lee and DJ Helm having EVER ‘asked’ the people running the firefighting effort to ever DO anything at all. There is no record of them ever ‘asking’ anyone to ‘protect their residence’. It doesn’t mean that might not have happened. It only means there is ( still ) no ‘evidence’ that it ever did.
FOLLOWING the deployment… that BSR became a ‘beehive’ of activity… and all kinds of ‘fire officials’ started arriving there. They ( Lee and DJ Helm ) understood what had just happened about 640 yards west of that location… and they gave ‘Incident within an Incident’ commander Todd Abel ‘permission’ to use their BSR as a ‘staging area’ for this tragic incident.
>> Diane lomas also asked…
>>
>> During the critical timeframe of 3:00-5:00 pm
>> where were the major fire fighters and officials
>> positioned?
That’s a pretty broad question.
Who do you consider ‘major fire fighters’?
As far as people who actually had ‘fire command’ positions that day above the level of ‘DIVS’… things also get a little complicated for that ‘two hour’ timeframe you are asking about.
I’ll try to answer this question in another post, but short on time right now.
Thank you WTKTT
I appreciate your input
Reply to Diane lomas post on
October 29, 2016 at 4:50 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Thank you WTKTT
>> I appreciate your input
Actually.. here is a ‘correction’ for something I said up above.
What I said above was…
—————————————————-
Lee and DJ Helm were interviewed by ADOSH investigators… but they didn’t say much.
They DID, however, answer a direct question from ADOSH investigators about whether they SAW any ‘fireman’ there at their home at any time prior to when they arrived back there that afternoon and the ‘burnover’ itself… and they said that they did NOT.
—————————————————–
What I meant to say was that they were asked if they say ANY fireman on their property from the time they arrived BACK at their ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ property ( around 2 PM ) up UNTIL the time of the ‘burnover’ there ( around 4:50 PM ).
They said they did NOT ( see ANY fireman in that timeframe ).
Here are the actual complete ‘ADOSH interview’ notes from when they spoke with Lee and DJ Helm…
Folder: ADOSH / Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0
Filename: “N9589 Notes redacted.pdf”
On PDF page 32 ( of 35 pages )…
—————————————————-
The Industrial Commission of Arizona
Occupational Safety and Health Division
Date: 7/16/13
Company / Investigation Name: Yarnell Hill Fire
Met with Mr. Lee Helm + Mrs. DJ Helm.
– Spent morning in Peeples Valley watching the fire advance north.
– Left Peeples Valley around noon, ran some errands in Yarnell, and returned home about 2 pm.
– Looking out north window and saw advancing fire from north. Ran outside and put animals in barn.
– From inside home the sky was filled with black smoke blacking out the sun. Embers and smoke filled the air.
– Never saw ANY firefighters on their property on Sunday, June 30.
—————————————————–
Key ‘testimony’ from Lee and DJ Helm…
“Never saw ANY firefighters on their property on Sunday, June 30.”
That doesn’t mean that Eric Marsh might not have actually gotten very near their property that day. It just means that even though they were THERE from approximately 2 PM onward that afternoon… and even though they were OUTSIDE putting up animals and doing other things in the 4:00 PM to 4:45 PM timeframe when Marsh would have been ‘close’ to the property… they simply did not SEE him ( or any other firefighters ).
It still remains possible that Eric Marsh only got close enough to their property to ascertain whether ‘Granite Mountain’ would even be able to get ONTO the property if/when they ‘hiked in’ to it from the WEST… and then Marsh ‘turned around’ and started heading back TOWARDS the now-hiking-to-the-ranch GM Crew.
Since it was never scouted earlier… there remained the possibility that there might have been some big ‘chain link’ fence there on the WEST side of the Helms’ property ( perhaps even an ‘electrified fence’ ) or some other ‘obstruction’ that would have caused a problem for GM actually getting onto that property when approaching on a hike to it from the WEST.
So ( perhaps ) the moment Eric Marsh got close enough to ascertain that was NOT the case… and that the GM Crew WOULD be able to just ‘walk onto the property’ if/when they arrived… maybe Marsh never bothered to walk all the way to the property at all and just ‘turned around’ and started walking back as soon as he knew there were no ‘serious obstructions’ there on that western side of that ranch.
So it wasn’t as if Granite Mountain had taken the longer route to BSR they would have been safe versus the shortcut.
Possibly Eric Marsh had scouted the longer route vs shortcut to BSR and realized that the longer route had some issues with that blind canyon so advocated for the shortcut.
As to the owners of BSR requesting help from firefighters I presume after reading on this blog that the manner for them to get help would have come through phone calls to political officials who would then have pressured the hotshots to provide protection.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
October 29, 2016 at 5:58 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> So it wasn’t as if Granite Mountain had
>> taken the longer route to BSR they
>> would have been safe versus the shortcut.
Correct. It still could have easily been a “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride” and they would have ‘descended’ into yet-another ‘blind box canyon filled with explosive fuel’, and completely ‘lost sight’ of the fireline for a significant amount of time.
It they had NOT been able to maintain the same ‘rate of travel’ as they had ( apparently ) achieved for the known ‘first leg’ of their risky effort… then they would have probably just become ‘trapped’ somewhere along the ‘alternate escape route’ the same way they became ‘trapped’ where they actually died that day.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> Possibly Eric Marsh had scouted the
>> longer route vs shortcut to BSR and
>> realized that the longer route had
>> some issues with that blind canyon
>> so advocated for the shortcut.
There wasn’t TIME for Eric Marsh to have ‘scouted’ BOTH alternatives.
That being said… we still DO NOT KNOW if Eric Marsh *might* have followed the ‘two-track/trail’ that is now known as the ‘alternate escape route’ all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and then it was Jesse Steed himself who chose the ‘shortcut’ through the box canyon itself.
The ONLY evidence that exists that Eric Marsh himself was the one who CHOSE the ‘shortcut’ is actually the roll of pink flagging/tape that Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan found up near the ‘Descent Point’.
It is still just ‘assumed’ that it represents some kind of ‘marker’ that Eric Marsh himself had left for Jesse Steed telling him to put his ‘left blinker on’ at the ‘Descent Point’ and proceed down into the fuel-filled box canyon.
The *possibility* remains that it was Jesse Steed’s decision alone to try that ‘shortcut’… and that Eric Marsh himself became ‘astonished’ that he would make such a stupid decision that day.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> As to the owners of BSR requesting help
>> from firefighters I presume after reading
>> on this blog that the manner for them
>> to get help would have come through
>> phone calls to political officials who
>> would then have pressured the hotshots
>> to provide protection.
Only Lee and DJ Helm can answer that question.
Even if they WANTED some ‘special effort’ to be made to protect their property… WHO they might have ‘called’ to request is that is a question that only THEY can answer.
But no one has ever even ASKED them if they made any such request(s).
Followup…
Whichever ‘route’ Eric Marsh had been ‘scouting’ before he radioed back to Jesse Steed and basically ended up ORDERING him to bring the GM crew down to the Boulder Springs Ranch…
…it’s worth noting that the TIME it took Eric Marsh to actually DO this supposed ‘scouting’ is the TIME that was ‘wasted’ that afternoon and, eventually, caused the GM Crew to lose their lives.
If… instead of them ‘waiting’ back at the ‘anchor poiint’ for Eric Marsh to have completed whatever ‘scouting’ he may or may not have been doing that afternoon… if the GM Crew had left the ‘safe black’ at the same time Eric Marsh did that afternoon ( circa 3:45 PM )… then we most likely would NOT be here having this ongoing conversation or trying to figure out what the hell really happened that day.
If they had ALL ‘left the black’ when Eric Marsh did ( circa 3:45 PM ) and they had ALL proceeded south TOGETHER… then whichever route they had decided to take after the BSR became visible… they would have had those extra 15 to 20 minutes that would have made all the difference that day.
It was their ‘work habits’ that actually killed them.
It was Eric Marsh’s HABIT of ‘scouting ahead’ and tying little flagging/ribbons on things to show the Crew where he wanted them to hike.
That is exactly what Marsh did that morning, and became exactly what he appears to have been attempting to do later that afternoon.
But that is what caused the LOSS OF TIME which ended up being the difference between life and death that afternoon.
If they were all going to eventually leave the ‘safe black’ no matter what… then they should have ALL realized they didn’t have the TIME for Marsh to do his usual “I’ll scout the route and call you when I’m done” stuff.
If they were going to eventually take this ‘risk’ that day… no matter what… then they should have ALL left the ‘safe black’ at the same time Eric Marsh did… circa 3:45 PM… and then they would have all likely gone home that day.
It still would have been a poor decision… but 15 minutes ended up being the difference between surviving a poor decision… versus having it be the last ‘poor decison’ they ever made.
Since Joy and I had before the fire hiked both routes Diane mentions we can give you an idea of how either route was a dangerous alternative. The very morning of June 30th, 2013, Joy and I took the route headed up to the two track just west of the BSR. We passed just west of Helms then forged our way up toward the two track. At near and perhaps the exact spot the men died we had a disagreement as to the direction to continue toward the fire. I wanted to take a direct path up the steep slope to get to the two track, then follow it to the fire edge–I was tired of fighting the brush and having to crawl under and find ways through the denseness of entanglement that included cat claw and scrub oak. Those that have never encounter cat claw might not understand how it can rip flesh so easily, having barbs fashioned exactly like sharks teeth. The barbs are about a sixteenth of an inch or less but will penetrate the epidermis enough to gouge through and bring a bloody wound. These cat claw cause the cowboy to wear leather chaps and in some areas on the west side of the Weaver range it is so thick as to grab your clothes and cause you much consternation even if you wear good thick canvas or levi jean material. Shorts would have you looking like Jesus after a good dragging of the cross.
The next thing is that scrub oak. The leave on it have several needles poking out so that if you grab onto a bush you will quickly release it. Free acupuncture if you like needles stuck into your body. Get one in your sock and you will quickly stop and get it out.
The manzanita of course eats at you going through it and at the time the men went down, they certainly had plenty of problems getting through. You can bet there were plenty of scratched arms if their sleeves were rolled up and there had to be a number of falls coming down that steep decline.
Josh Eels of Rolling Stones actually forged through with me in an unburned area very similar to that the men went through that day. Joy opted to go around the patch–Of course it was only 50 yards or so of thick brush left to attempt, but he still got a good taste of what the men were having to wiggle through. In that patch, thick as it was, we did not have to crawl under anything, whereas, in the basin where GMHS got trapped, Joy and I found ourselves having to crawl under brush on our bellies many places–and played the maze game all the way through that bastard canyon. I did expect to come face to face with a rattler–something I have done in old mines–but fortunately if we did, we did not see them and they did not strike. In the cool of the morning a rattler is less likely to strike and I have before in the Burro Mountains once set right next to one inches away on a log and as long as not directly on him that old boy did not bother to strike. They blend in so well, that it can happen–they know a meal that is too big to swallow and especially the older ones are less likely to strike unless they feel threatened.
The matter comes to this, that longer alternative route was just as WTKTT says, another blind canyon just over the ridge from where they died. There is a saddle and canyon leading to that saddle just below where they deployed going south that would have funneled the fire up and over to the alternate route, as well also there was intense growth of the manzanita Immediately west of the Helms that would take the fire around the end of the ridge that ends the south side of the box canyon. That also would cut them off at the and funnel more fire up that narrow alternative escape route right above the cattle pond above the Helms.
Some have thought that they might have been going to take the alternative route but that I believe never was an option considered and would approximate what happened in the box canyon. That alternative route was also extremely dense and the old bulldozer line called the two track was washed badly and overgrown with manzanita since the 60’s enough that it was a terrible alternative. Even after the fire when we hiked it after a couple years growth someone had bushwhacked through the new growth cutting a way through. Apparently they did not like the cat claw traps and likely were hiking in shorts so had to clear a lot of places to be able to get through. Don’t hike in there with shorts–people that do are going to need to fix up abrasions and wounds from those claws and sticks and rocks that can cut deeply.
The point is, why take either route with what we were watching. Either way you were going toward the fire and not away from it–best stay in the black and safe, but as Provencio and RTS said, the GMHS bosses were risk takers and not only risked their own lives but the innocent young crew that knew no better than to strictly follow orders. Group think and risk taking bosses will get the young ones killed.
Must go now since Joy has a doc appointment.
Thanks WTKTT= great facts and reliable info.
During the time that help was needed in Yarnell to evacuate citizens why didn’t personnel who were gathered at the ranch house assist?
I hope the locals do not read your post Diane. That was one of the last dying words of one of our casualties from yhf…too many were fired up that they were all gathered there and yet not helping…you hit a very sensitive topic and I just pray locals do not see that question because those people never saw it that waw that sat at cafe and I found myself defending the cafe first responders and I saw both sides on topic but still to this day a hard thing for some…
Reply to Diane lomas post on November 3, 2016 at 10:55 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> During the time that help was needed in
>> Yarnell to evacuate citizens why didn’t personnel
>> who were gathered at the ranch house assist?
Some of them did.
But it was basically SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself who TOLD the ‘Engine Crews’ assembled at the Ranch House Restaurant to ‘stay put’. He was NOT giving them ‘permission’ to participate in any emergency evacuation or rescue efforts because he felt the conditions were already too dangerous to let them do that.
That’s what Gary Cordes told ADOSH, anyway.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-361307
Hey Gary…when I showed you my foia inquiries…I bet you can only imagine that redactions and edited not raw footage reads to me loud and clear from the Superiors…Joy you are a woman who was once a very poor kid and you never participated much in any of our programmable offerings to society so really Joy you cannot sell enough off to win against us so settle that when you ask for our finances and we deny or redact it really is telling you God will handle the accounting…but I wonder do they mean the funds or lives lost……God’s accounting…when will people get that fire was burning itself out and there is proof on both fires. When will people stand up and do what is right? Yeah some are in their labs or at their desk creating the next fire shelter and planning the next grant and not even thinking clear…they say “what’s one more…” one more what? Fire? Fallen firefighter? When are you going to stop telling yourself it wont hurt anyone…and realize what is going on behind the fences…Minutes matter. Where can I look up data on John Doughertys site on Fernandez Shumate and Olsen. How can I make a private civilian speak up on the use of their property that horrific weekend. Is there any legal way. Who at Double A ranch granted them permission to station there. Why cant anyone answer from any entity who gave the direction to place that pumpkin on private property and at that spot. How come Holly and others were allowed to scope that area so earlier in the game after the fire. I dont doubt her article just on something so BIG and no public resource always been on the shelf and her article gave my investigation the birth of foias to find out who was at Helms that weekend and when I come forward one day I will do it knowing I gave so many the TIME to SPEAK UP…and you have not yet…I do not speak a storm…I am gathering from all areas on both fires…I stand firm by my statements always and in all ways.
When was “the pumpkin” placed at the Helms’ property?
I am imagining a lot of activity in the vicinity of the Helms property—bulldozers clearing lines, firefighters waiting for the Granite Mountain hotshots to appear etc.
Where was R Simmons (sp) and what was he doing to help citizens in the Yarnell area?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on October 29, 2016 at 6:16 pm
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> When was “the pumpkin” placed at the Helms’ property?
Sometime on Saturday, June 29, 2013… at the ‘direction’ of Arizona Forestry ‘Incident Commander’ Russ Shumate.
The EXACT time that happened has never been verified.
On July 24, 2013, ADOSH investigators sat down with Yarnell Hill Fire Department Captain Brad Haggard, to interview him.
Brad Haggard ‘worked’ the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘incident’ for 3 days, from Saturday, June 29, 2013 through July 1, 2013.
At the very top of the NOTES from this ADOSH interview with Haggard, we see him telling ADOSH that he is he one who was told by Arizona Forestry ‘Incident Commander’ Russ Shumate to set up ‘pumpkins’ on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
NOTE: These ‘ADOSH interview notes’ are contained in the following document in the ADOSH investigation folder…
Folder: ADOSH / Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0
Filename: “L3419 YFD, Peeples Valley, CYFD field notes redacted.pdf”
Here are the ‘notes’ from the very top of ADOSH’s interview with Captain Haggard…
—————————————————————————
Spoke with Captain Brad Haggard ( Yarnell Fire Department ).
Worked incident 6/29/13 to 7/1/13.
Saturday – June 29, 2013
IC ( Russ Shumate ) ordered 2 portable water tanks set up.
One at Ranch House Restaurant.
One at Helms’ Ranch House.
Fill water tender from hydrant and shuttle water between each tank.
Started at 2200 on June 29, 2013.
Worked through the night.
Relieved by Captain Sam Portillo who started running water
tender at 0600 on June 30, 2013.
Aided by ( YFD firefighter ) Kristie Lewis, Captain Portillo stated
he worked through the day, then evacuated to Peeples Valley.
————————————————————————
So it appears to have been Yarnell Fire Department Captain Brad Haggard who got the initial ‘order’ from Arizona Forestry Incident Commander ( IC ) Russ Shumate to set up those TWO ‘pumpkins’.
The ‘interview notes’ also say Haggard didn’t come ‘on duty’ until 2200 ( 10:00 ) PM on Saturday night ( after the fire had ‘escaped’ out on the ridge and Shumate was now desperately ordering up ‘resources’ for ‘Sunday, June 30 ).
So if it WAS Haggard who was first told to ‘set up the pumpkins and fill them with water’… but he didn’t even come on duty until 10:00 PM Saturday night,… that means the ‘pumpkins’ were NOT ‘set up’ during the DAY on Saturday but were only ‘ordered’ to be set up and filled with water late Saturday NIGHT and AFTER the fire had “escaped Initial Attack” some hours earlier, before sundown.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> I am imagining a lot of activity in the vicinity of the Helms
>> property—bulldozers clearing lines, firefighters waiting for the
>> Granite Mountain hotshots to appear etc.
“Bulldozers clearing lines” ( near the Helms ranch ), perhaps… but there is no real evidence of “a lot of activity in the vicinity of the Helms” in the timeframe just before the fatal deployments.
The bottom line is that we still DO NOT KNOW ‘where’ that bulldozer and/or operator Paul Morin were in the late-afternoon timeframe… or what his ASSIGNMENT might have been.
We know for a fact that SPGS1 Gary Cordes had told Blue Ridge Hotshots ( and dozer boss that day ) Cory Ball to “scout more line to protect Glen Ilah”… but we still don’t know if the bulldozer operator had already STARTED on any kind of project like that out there near the Helms’ driveway and/or the southern part of the ‘Sesame clearing’ area.
The bulldozer and its operator, Yavapai County Works Department employee Paul Morin, ended up on the ‘missing persons’ list following the deployment and DPS Police Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’ was actually told to be ‘looking’ for him ( along with the GM Hotshots ) when it was finally ‘in the air’ at 5:16 PM and beginning its ‘search’ mission.
>> Diane Lomas also asked…
>>
>> Where was R Simmons (sp) and what was he doing to
>> help citizens in the Yarnell area?
I don’t know. I will look into it and get back to you.
http://www.indra.com/8ball/front.html
Gary…ask the eight ball if Clinton is gonna win 😁
Wwtktt…can you confirm which official fire time line perimeters do you prefer to use for the yhf and which weather station data are you relying on…are you using the rawf stanton weather station reports or the one by the Helms?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 29, 2016 at 6:09 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Wwtktt…can you confirm which official fire time line
>> perimeters do you prefer to use for the yhf
My own… which come from looking at ALL of the ‘available’ evidence,
and which I have been ‘publishing’ here frequently.
Is there a ‘particular’ timeframe you are asking about?
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> and which weather station data are you relying on…
>> are you using the rawf stanton weather station reports
Whenever I’ve turned my attention to the ‘weather’… the answer is the same as for ‘timelines’. I try to look at ALL of the ‘availble’ evidence and not just any one particular source.
The RAWS station that is often quoted was NOT actually IN ‘Yarnell’ itself.
I believe it was ‘to the south’… and near that BLM Helibase where BLM contract ( yellow and white ) Helicopter N14HX was just before it initially flew to the Yarnell Hill fire on Saturday morning, about 10:00 AM.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves were taking ‘weather readings’ right there in the ‘middle of the action’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
The Blue Ridge Crew just sat on their asses near their Crew Carriers for most of the day out there in the ‘Sesame Clearing’ where the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers were also parked.
They had ‘nothing else to do’ for most of that fateful day BUT ‘spin the weather’… and I’ve never found any reason to doubt those ‘readings’.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> or the one by the Helms?
Which ‘Helms’ weather data/reports’ are you referring to?
Do you have a link to that?
Followup…
I said ( up above )…
————————————————————-
The RAWS station that is often quoted was NOT actually IN ‘Yarnell’ itself.
I believe it was ‘to the south’… and near that BLM Helibase where BLM contract ( yellow and white ) Helicopter N14HX was just before it initially flew to the Yarnell Hill fire on Saturday morning, about 10:00 AM.
————————————————————————
That often-referenced RAWS weather data station was, in fact, about 4 miles south-southeast of Yarnell ( and 1200 feet lower in elevation )…
From PDF page 72 of the original SAIR report…
—————————————————————
Climate: No weather stations in Yarnell have current and long-term weather data, so two sources of weather data were used. These weather stations are the Stanton Remote Automated Weather Station (RAWS) and the weather station at Prescott’s Love Field. Stanton RAWS is approximately 4 miles south-southeast and 1,200 feet lower than the town of Yarnell. Love Field is 40 miles northeast of and 245 feet higher than the town of Yarnell.
—————————————————————
Charlie says
OCTOBER 25, 2016 AT 2:14 PM
Listen I married one, but then got her legal later. My kids are tough–they don’t wear brogans and live in cookie cotter land–ie Scottsdale and my son in Las Cruces, RN in a very expensive two story cookie cutter home with all the trimings, and the other son in a Condo belonging to my daughter. All very intelligent beings, lot of it from the Mexican side. I am half black also being that my Mother’s maiden name was Black.
Wet Back is not a derogatory term, the Mexicans say Mohado, meaning wet. I am often called a Gringo–that was when Gen Pershings troops were tracking Pancho Villa, and on that God Forsaken Chihuahuan Desert were singing Green Grows the Grass of Texas. The Mexicans interpreted it to be Gringo’s Ass of Texas. Wet Back simply means an illegal–usually wet from swimming across the Rio Grande, but more likely from the sweat of being overworked and underpaid.
And I say, I am having trouble getting out of the door to the dunes…so I have some good news for you,I have time for one more comment because…that is what I do.
I know you love the Mexican people Sonny, and that you loved one of them more than others (probably a lot more than one if the truth were to be told). And that was just another one of my jokes and chance to use some lines from the “Big Lebowski.” because that is what I do.
And FYI, if you don’t want to use “undocumented alien” and you are into the whole brevity thing, you can just say UDA. Or you could call them “Tonks”, like the overwhelming number of Border Patrol Agents who are of Mexican heritage do because that’s the sound they make when you hit them over head with a six cell Mag light.
You forget how many years I spent working on the border with and around the border patrol and how many years I spent in New Mexico. And there is one thing that is important to point out to our readers…using the term “wet-back” is most assuredly a derogatory term.
You can use it because you have been grandfathered in from another generation and you say it with respect and “those people” can say it just like “those other people” can use the N word, but most people had better not unless they are ready to fight.
Especially since the entire southwest did belong to Mexico until we invaded their country in the pretext of chasing a few border bandidos and then occupied Mexico City and wouldn’t leave until they gave it to us…meaning U.S. God Bless America!
In the meantime…I want to give a special shout out to Joy in between her uncontrolled vomiting because she has sent me some of her FOIA’s and she is really giving them hell and she is really making them earn their money. God Bless a Free Press and the few people who follow it. We, thanks to Joy and so many others led by JD, might make a difference here before this is all over. God Bless America Again!
Gary-
not wanting them to EARN their pay but I am the desert walker and I do not want any bogus fine or ticket or etc so give me the documents proving what’s going on with this park where the path they made is actually the hikers path 6-30-13 not the GMHS and let me have in writing my boundaries. I am going to file a bunch of cases if I am not addressed by Nov 21st including GMHS Memorial Parks…yes PARKS…and as well Peeples Valley Fire Dept./Deer Valley and Prescott Dispatchers
They have in person notice, snail mail traceable with chief’s signature, and called and last final call was today 14:58pm —next through this Winter I will be readressing and asking STATUS on foia for YCSO, Forestry, BLM, Air Attack Dispatchers, and City of Prescott.
I am not pleased at all how I have been tossed to the side wanting legit documents.
I have all the documents that if a judge was presented with my documents I can ensure I get the public records I asked.
Reply to Cheerleader post on October 24, 2016 at 1:45 pm
>> Cheerleader said…
>>
>> Now for the park and it being PRIVATE; answer me this because many media
>> folks now KNOW the shortcuts of the Weavers and have got their permission
>> slips and so are they going to be in trouble for catching this private event—what
>> is the consequences on an open land area that surrounds this RESTRICTED land
>> with not the proper legal signage and fencing????- there is areas to legally see
>> these spots- so if they catch videos and photos of this invite only event; are they
>> now the paparazzi bad folks??? let me know..
The ENTIRE southern and western ‘boundaries’ of this new ‘Arizona State Park’ touch on
Arizona State Trust Land.
The ENTIRE northern boundary of this new ‘Arizona State Park’ touches on Rex Maughn’s land.
The entire EAST boundary of the park is touched by THREE different pieces of ‘private property’. Two of them belong to Lee and DJ Helm… and the other one belings to ‘Baluco Trust’.
If anyone has a valid ‘hiking permit’ for ‘Arizona State Trust Lands’… then they can walk right up
to the entire WESTERN or SOUTHERN boundaries of the park anytime they wish.
Arizona State Parks has ONLY ‘purchased’ the “south half of Section 9, Township 10 north, Range 05 west”.
That’s it.
They have NOT actually ‘purchased’ ANY of the ‘State Trust Land’ upon which this entire ‘hiking trail’ has been constructed… nor is there any record of them having actually purchased the actual slice of State Trust Land where they build the ‘trailhead parking lot’.
So, technically ( and legally ) speaking… anyone with a valid ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ hiking permit can be at that parking lot… or ‘hiking’ that trail that LEADS to the ‘State Park’ any time they want to… regardless of what the actual ‘hours’ of the State Park might turn out to be.
It ALSO means that ‘Arizona Parks’ has now constructed and installed almost ALL of those 19 ‘memorial markers’ along that ‘hiking trail’ ( one for each of the Granite Mountain hotshots ) on land that they DO NOT OWN.
As far as I can tell from their own new ‘diagram’ of where all the 19 ‘memorial markers’ are actually located along that winding ‘hiking trail’… only the LAST TWO are ACTUALLY on the property they purchased for the new State Park.
All 17 of the other ‘memorial markers’ are on parts of the hiking trail that are still officially ‘Arizona State Trust Land’, and ( consequently ) NOT ‘controlled’ by ‘Arizona State Parks Department’.
Checking the Arizona State Trust Land Department’s own website and ‘parcel search’ capabilities… even THEY ‘affirm’ that Arizona State Parks does NOT own ANY of the land to the south of the ‘State Park’ upon which they have built this ‘hiking trail’ AND the ‘parking lot’.
According to Arizona State Trust Land Department’s website… ALL of that land still totally belongs to THEM ( and is still ‘held in trust’ for the people of Arizona )… and there is absolutely no indication of even any ‘lease’ or ‘agreement’ for ( or with ) ‘Arizona State Parks’ to have built that entire hiking trail AND the ‘parking lot’ there on State Trust Land.
wwtktt said_All 17 of the other ‘memorial markers’ are on parts of the hiking trail that are still officially ‘Arizona State Trust Land’, and ( consequently ) NOT ‘controlled’ by ‘Arizona State Parks Department’.
MY REPLY_ I noticed that too
So at the parking lot there is a sign that says CLOSED-
legally since the start of the park is state land I can walk from Congress to Sonny’s that way now- right?
That path actually does lead to Sonny’s place too-
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 26, 2016 at 11:57 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> wwtktt said_All 17 of the other ‘memorial markers’ are on parts
>> of the hiking trail that are still officially ‘Arizona State Trust Land’,
>> and ( consequently ) NOT ‘controlled’ by ‘Arizona State Parks
>> Department’.
>>
>> MY REPLY_ I noticed that too
>>
>> So at the parking lot there is a sign that says CLOSED-
So what?
That ‘parking lot’ is NOT on land that is, in any way, OWNED by the Arizona Parks Department.
That ‘parking lot’ ( and just about all of the ‘hiking trail’ ) is still ( officially ) on ‘Arizona State Trust Land’… and Arizona State Parks Department does NOT have any control over that land or the right to set ‘access rights’ for it.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> legally since the start of the park is state land I can walk from
>> Congress to Sonny’s that way now- right?
Yes.
The ENTIRE southern and western boundaries of the ‘rectangle’ that Arizona Parks purchased is TOTALLY ‘Arizona State Trust Land’… and there are NO CLOSURES issued for ANY of that ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ which SURROUNDS both the southern and western boundaries of the ‘State Park’.
Ditto for the ‘northern boundary’ of the ‘rectangle’ that is the new ‘State Park’ ( the south half of Section 9, Township 10N, Range 05W ).
It is totally ‘Rex Maughan’ land… and if anyone has the required ‘letter of permission’ to be hiking on THAT land… then you could walk all the way to the peak of that northern side of the box canyon ( which is still NOT inside the boundary of the ‘State Park’ ) and look right down and ‘observe’ the entire dedication ceremony next month…
…and there isn’t a damn thing anyone can do about it.
As for the ‘parking lot’ and the ‘hiking trail’ and the majority of the ‘Memorial markers’ that are NOT actually on land that is either ‘owned’ or ‘controlled’ by the Arizona State Parks department…
…I’m sure they ( Arizona Parks ) would try to CLAIM that they, somehow, ‘control’ that land… but where is the ‘document’ that would PROVE that?
There is NO RECORD of Arizona State Parks having gone through the official process that MUST ( by law ) be followed for them to ‘purchase’ the land upon with that hiking trail and the parking log have now been ‘built’.
Arizona State Trust Land Department cannot just GIVE AWAY any ‘State Trust Land’ to anyone they like.
That is totally AGAINST THE LAW.
That ‘Trust Land’ is what it says… it is being held ‘in Trust’ to benefit the people of Arizona and it CANNOT just be ‘given away’ to ANYONE…Arizona State Parks included.
There is also no sign of any kind of ‘right of way’ or ‘special lease’ agreement between ‘Arizona State Parks’ and the ‘Arizona State Trust Land Department’ for them to have even been allowed to build the parking lot or the hiking trail on State Trust Land in the first place.
They ( Arizona State Parks ) might try to say they had ‘permission’ to do that construction on ‘State Trust Land’… but again… that cannot just be ‘verbal permission’. There MUST be some kind of ‘document’ to back that up.
And here is why.
If Arizona State Parks Department now thinks they have ( and have had ) some kind of special ‘right of way’ granted to them through ‘State Trust Land’… then what is the WIDTH of that ‘right of way’?
Does Arizona State Parks now think they control 10-20 feet on ‘either side’ of the ‘hiking trail’?… or do they think they control 100-200 fooet on ‘either side’ of the hiking trail.
The WIDTH of the ‘right of way’ matters.
How WIDE is it? ( on either side of the hiking trail? ).
Bottom line: Arizona State Parks DOES NOT OWN THE LAND upon which they have built the parking lot and most of the ‘hiking trail’… and they DO NOT OWN THE LAND upon which they have now ‘installed’ at least 17 of the ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Markers’.
The ONLY ‘land’ they OWN ( and/or control )… is “The south half of Section 9, Township 10 north, Range 05 west.
wwtktt said-That ‘parking lot’ is NOT on land that is, in any way, OWNED by the Arizona Parks Department.
I wish they would reply to my inquiries and foias as fast as you do
And with regards to the ‘parking lot’ alone… before anyone suggests that, since it was built right there on the side of Highway 89… that ADOT somehow ‘gave’ that little piece of land to Arizona State Parks in order for them to build their little parking lot…
…that is not what the Arizona State Trust Land Department thinks.
There IS no ADOT ‘right of way’ there on that land where the ‘trailhead parking lot’ was built.
According to Arizona State Trust Land department… that is still ALL ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ being held ‘in Trust’ ( as the Arizona Constitution requires ) for the ‘benefit of ALL of the citizens of Arizona’.
So if Arizona State Parks really does think it OWNS that little piece of land where they built even just that ‘parking lot’…
…then where is the DEED to that piece of land?
WHO broke Arizona law and jsut GAVE it to ‘Arizona Parks Department’ without following the legally codified procedures required to transfer ownership of ANY ‘Arizona State Trust Land’… no matter how small or big the slice of land is?
And if Arizona Parks also thinks it has some official ‘right of way’ access for the hiking trail itself across ‘Arizona State Trust Land’… there were is THAT ‘document’ or ‘agreement’.
Arizona State Trust Land department isn’t showing ANY kind of ‘agreement’ like that whatsoever associated with those parcels of land they own where the ‘hiking trail’ was built and now at least 17 of the Granite Mountain ‘Memorial Markers’ have already been ‘constructed and installed’.
Somebody fucked up.
This ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ MIGHT have to ‘punt’ and MOVE those ‘markers to the NORTH… so that they really ARE ‘installed’ onto land that Arizona State Parks actually OWNS.
Beyond the ‘private dedication’ thing… the interesting thing here might be when we finally learn what the ‘park hours’ are supposed to be ( dawn to dusk, maybe? )… and whether this ‘rent a ranger’ they have supposedly hired things he/she has the right to ‘police’ either the parking lot or the parts of the ‘hiking trail’ that are NOT actually on land that is ‘owned’ by Arizona State Parks.
In other words… since only TWO out of the 19 ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Markers’ are actually ON land that is owned by Arizona Parks Department… then what about the ‘other 17’… and with regards to this ‘rent a ranger’ who only WORKS for ‘Arizona State Parks’?
Where will this ‘rent-a-ranger’ be getting the actual ‘authoritay’ to try and tell anyone anything about what the ‘access rights’ are for ‘Arizona State Trust Lands’… when their paycheck comes from ‘Arizona State Parks’… and ‘Arizona State Parks does NOT OWN THE LAND that most of the hiking trail occupies?
I may be wrong but it appears to me that there was a scenario of the the haves and have nots in play on June 30,2013 during the Yarnell Fire.
The wealthy landowners in peeple’s valley received air attack services and retardant drops at a time when these services were needed in Yarnell and Boulder Springs Ranch was prioritized over safety of 19 men.
There is a long history in wildland firefighting of the wealthy and/or politically connected getting resource ‘priority’.
At Yarnell Hill, this was evident in the significant time and effort spent trying to defend what had been at initial triage, determined to be an “in-defensible’ ranch on the north side.
Following those failed efforts on the north, apparently, the next real plan developed, was to defend the ‘bomb-proof’ property of another (reportedly) wealthy land-owner, on the south side.
If there’s one thing wealthy/connected property owners all have in common, it’s having their Congressmen, Senators, and Governors on speed dial, along with being on a first name basis with them.
Fire managers are just as tuned-in to the heat coming from those politicians, as they are heat from the fire itself, and they do not like it.
They will do whatever it takes to keep the politicians at bay..
Even though ‘in-defensible’ and ‘bomb-proof’ seem like totally opposite concepts, in this case, there is undeniably a common thread that binds them.
WTKTT,
Thank you for that background information. Makes me wonder what R Simmonds was doing to help put the town of yarnell
To The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive,
I mistakenly addressed you as WTKTT. Your information and the landowners and politics put a light on the situation.
Well, I was going to bed, it is late but I remembered we have some of the most brilliant minds here and WTKTT is one always willing to help. Now do you think it is a good idea for several of the locals to get up a lawsuit against people that are working the neighborhood and causing the county to be writing warnings, and even tickets for things that they would never even look at except these people keep calling them. Is it not malicious intentions that these people have to keep doing these things to their neighbors. In my case the county has been called yet no proof my dogs were out and it was not illegal to have chickens by ordinance. Would it be a case that these people are actually causing community problems even though they are acting under the guise of good citizens. People are telling me they want to make a suit against them and with a FOIA, I can show who is making problems for me. Well it would be good to hear your opinion and others here as to a good route to put a stop to the hurt these people are continuing to do to others here.
What is the actual ‘complaint’?… that ( sometimes ) your “dogs are out”?
Are they the kind of dogs others think are automatically ‘aggressive’ and/or ‘dangerous’? ( Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, etc. ) ?
Yavapai County ( indeed…pretty much all of Arizona ) has a ‘leash law’ and your dogs are, in fact, supposed to be ‘confined to your property’ unless you are actually out ‘walking them’ ( on a leash ).
And yea… there COULD be a ‘ticket’ involved since it’s an actual LAW.
But it would be very unusual for there to be a ‘ticket’ just for a one-or-two time only thing. Everyone’s dogs can ‘get out’ from time to time.
They’re dogs.
I would think a ‘ticket’ would only enter the picture if it’s a constant or repeating sort of thing.
Im at ycso now…
One dog is a golden retriever and 2 lab mutts. .
I will get records who filed.
Doing it now
Completed task.
YCSO Rondle Castle and Deputy Robin Derrickson helped and I was going to get the foia back by 6am but I got word who it was and I worked it out and gave my number to them to reach me anytime and it was not who Sonny thought and after hearing them I am settled to check fence line because his property has alot of boulders and ensure no sneaky way out and he did not get ticket or fine …he got written warning vicious animal no license and dog at large so one dog is and one is not because we were waiting to see if anyone claimed her when I reported dog found in desert at ycso lost n found but she will get license in the morning. So case closed. I did get city of prescott and prescott dispatcher and ycso foia forms for the part 2…and I do wish yhf case was that easy where I can say case closed.
Charlie-
a man wrote on us on the comment wall of John Dougherty’s interview of us- see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSaQ8A9UeWk&feature=youtu.be
I think people need to start waking up— I so get the sensitivity and the remembering…but too many FORGET even some of the loved ones- they forget I experienced “more” than Donut from another way because I had mountain top view not a base hill view like Donut- and I SAW that fire and I saw how it exploded from “above” and Charlie I do not like to “admit” you saved my life that day because I don’t…but I do admit it here and now that your gruff and rough way that day got me to MOVE your way—and we are alive…
THANK YOU TEX HAROLD ELDON GILLIGAN…THANK YOU!
Joy,
Due to my overwhelming natural curiosity, I read the reply to the youtube video at your posted link. The comment (basically staking claim to the position that nobody did anything wrong at Yarnell Hill, it’s a hazardous job, and shit happens) was posted under the name “nwsrda1.” Now my ‘imagineering’ here is admittedly a longshot and your faith in my guess is up to you. The only info I can come up with for an alias like that is:
National Weather Service Radar Data Acquisition 1. (nwsrda1) It’s possible that the commenter at your link is affiliated with the National Weather Service…wouldn’t that be a hoot!!? If this is true, the most interesting part is that the NWS makes a living providing predictions based on models and this person is saying that nobody could have predicted what ended up unfolding that day. It’s a head scratcher.
No warranty is expressed or implied as to the veracity of my ‘research’ with this one.
Woodsman
GO WOODSMAN!
WOODSMAN- THAT MAN WROTE BACK ON JOHN DOUGHERTY’S VIDEO-
MY REPLY IS ONE IN CAPS
nwsrda13 minutes ago
I have 15 years fighting wildland fire lady. I HAVE MET AND HIKED PEOPLE WHO HAVE 60+ YEARS SIR IN THE INDUSTRY- I HAVE MET AND HIKED PEOPLE YOU PROBABLY LOOKED UP TO – WHAT IS YOUR POINT FOR SHARING YOUR YEARS IN THE INDUSTRY- MY NAME IS JOY A. COLLURA NOT LADY- I CALLED YOU SIR BECAUSE YOU COME OUT PUBLIC WITH NO FULL NAME And you have no answers… THE HELL I DON’T..I WISH I DID NOT KNOW WHAT I KNOW IN SOME SENSE there a hundred times- that circumstance the shot crew found themselves in. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING HERE?
YOU TALKED UP A STORM- ALL CAPITOLS LIKE THIS, AND said actually very little. I AM NOT TALKING A STORM- I AM REPLYING TO YOUR COMMENT WITH CAPS NOT TO MAKE POINTS BUT TO IDENTIFY MY WORDS FROM YOUR WORDS- THAT WAS ALL— MY WORDS SAY VERY LITTLE IN HOW DO YOU MEAN? WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW–I CAN LEAD YOU TO WHERE TO GET YOUR OWN FOIAS AND INTERVIEWS AND DATA BUT I DID A NON COMMERCIAL PURPOSE FOIA AND SO I CANNOT TALK ON CONTENT
the proof that IS in the world-
but not yet public
shows that this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRn1Ro9J8E
what was going on in that area around that video—in a way it is beyond FUBAR-
I wish I had the right trusting LEGAL folks who gave a shit about what is really going on and than I could splurge in privacy it all—-
There is NO WAY for so many reasons I can talk about it and people can say I SAY A STORM but this was an avoidable situation-
end of story.
Joy,
I would surmise that Mr/Ms. “nwsrda1” & his/her attitude concerning the whole Yarnell Hill fire tragedy, is congruent with roughly 95% of the wildland firefighters out there today. There are simply too many sheep and brainwashed individuals employed in the wildland service (& across society in general, I’m afraid.) Being able to think for yourself is a dying trait. That’s not how the kids are raised today. Don’t ask questions & get in line!
I am in fact not only the black sheep…I’m a SHEEP DOG. Being the sheep dog that I am, I did not then and do not now ‘buy’ what management is attempting to sell. Nope. No way, Jose. The fact that people who can think for themselves are an endangered species is it’s own tragedy.
Woodsman
and while we are at it— under this current insidious system “controlled” bullshit mentality of how fires are being done; firefighters themselves told me “we start more fires than we put out”…My concerns with the current system is the lack of responsibility and accountability when it comes down to protecting lives or if their chaos and mismanaged tactics gets out of control they think that it is ok—-and there is just TOO MUCH of the wrong kinds of fires occurring in the wrong places; THERE IS A DIFFERENCE to back country and country near residential/recreational/scenic areas and SHOULD BE handled different…good to see Rocksteady back…I am very impressed by WWTKTT’s responses and always right there for the world…One of the things I do wish in this all is the Saturday prison crew are able to publicly share that day into night into Sunday morning where it jumped…really I look forward to that…If they were thinking of writing a blog or a book- link me there; “yeah baby”
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cc/12/8c/cc128c927dd5ed2f0104332291c84708.jpg
♚
YOU-
your move..
or is it?
https://youtu.be/s1yK7Orq9Ws
video didn’t post-
oops meant to say anyone with the middle name initials H S
please step forward and speak…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 26, 2016 at 2:22 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> https://youtu.be/s1yK7Orq9Ws
>> video didn’t post-
A long, rambling speech from Roy Hall that never really says anything at all and is just filled with “fortune cookie” advice.
If he conducts himself in the same manner when being paid to be an IC and doing ‘briefings’… then no wonder people are then CONFUSED about what they are supposed to be doing.
Amen WWTKTT-
re: Roy Hall
This morning by daylight I was up, noticed the skies are being filled with the white substance that looks similar to clouds and is laid down so the parallel lines of it are obvious as are the jets continuing to cross the skies spraying this substance. I believe it is aluminium oxide although we do not know what else is added. Now this is experiments to see how the military might block radar or alternatively bounce off ground radar or other such electromagnetic waves–radio etc.
What we do know is that Alzheimer disease that is so rampant these days is related to aluminum and the dissected brains of these sufferers shows a large content of Aluminum involved. We do wonder if breathing this over long periods of time, since these dumps are regular over the years, is not a problem causing the increase of Alzheimer disease we see these days. This time it is military secrets as to what it is, not the trade secret ingredients of the retardant. Actually leaks have said it is both Barium and Aluminum oxides and other chemicals added. These do settle over the years on the forage and when burns happen people get an extra dose of these things in the air. The technology of the day –well as one doctor told me after I mentioned all the side effects of his prescription–you have to weigh the benefits against the bad side effects. Maybe they could add some lithium for some people–it would save on prescriptions and keep a lot of people out of depressive or crazy moods–but then maybe they do add it in. Lets hope it is safer than the retardant dumps were at Yarnell.h
Joy, concerning the you tube clip by John Daugherty, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSaQ8A9UeWk&feature=youtu.be I could not get on comment page but if i could here is what I would say: We have since learned that the crews were not so experienced as believed and were an experiment in mixing wild land fire fighting with structure protection, now sometimes dubbed hybrids in wild land fire fighting. Donut called all the safety rules as hill billy and old fashioned.. Provencio and RTS, experienced and retired wild land fire fighter crew bosses reported the GMHS crew as extreme risk takers–a crew you would not want your son working for. And to add to this, there was an argument between Marsh and Steed–Steed not wanting to take the men down to protect a single structure–the Boulder Springs Ranch abode. This alludes to the knowledge that someone had pressured Marsh to have his crew drop down into that deadly situation, despite the danger and the fact the crew would be breaking all the wild land fire fighting safety rules. Indeed someone put a structure before the lives of 19 men when their efforts would have been useless against such an enormous wild fire even if they had reached the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Indeed the crew are all dead, but they have said much yet the gag orders, redactions, and cover up investigations have drowned out their voices. Reputations have been put before safety of future wild land fire fighter lives.
And for this we have the explanation of why this historic disaster and example of history’s worse fire fighting management has been made into a heroic event with God to blame for killing these men. (God had other plans for these men according to Willis, the immediate head of Marsh and the GMHS crew).
The positive side of this, if there can be one, is that many elite and recognized wild land fire fighters, intelligent and wise concerned tax payers who foot those bills, and a few media organizations, as well as people attached to respected investigative organizations have been exposing the foibles that caused the deaths of the 19. They are concerned not only with wasted tax money, but foremost the lives of future wild land fire fighters. They want more respect and better training, better wages for these dangerous jobs and better equipment to assure the safety of the men.
The many deaths and respiratory sickness that Yarnell has suffered after being surrounded by thousands of gallons of the so called inert retardant, which absolutely is not, is also an experiment to be examined. And once the many deaths and ongoing respiratory illnesses augmented by cancer, heart problems, and other maladies connected to compromised lung problems, is documented, then we will be saving civilian lives by keeping this crap away from humans and human habitations. If you care anything at all about the elderly and the future health of those young ones exposed to this deadly substance, then not only will the secret ingredients come to light but also the dangers of exposing people to the by product of ammonium gas coming off the retardant drops, but also the danger of spreading ammonium nitrates and sulfates to burning embers. Previously cyanide was added into the secret ingredients until someone realized how poisonous cyanide is. But they have not mentioned that exposing the ammonium nitrates, phosphates and sulfates to burning embers is the method cyanide was produced commercially for years.
There is a new process now, and I suspect that why they were never concerned of adding cyanide to their agent orange retardant was because they had known they were making cyanide in those drops anyhow. A little more nicotine in a cigarette does little more harm, but it does help sell more cigarettes. More cyanide will release more gold from gold ores but it does nothing for the health of individuals
.But to add to the concern for those exposed to this retardant are the hidden chemicals in the amounts of 8-16%. There is absolutely no reason to hide these chemicals under trade secrets. This type manufacturing of retardant is a virtual monopoly and these chemicals have no reason to be hidden unless they are substances detrimental to health as is the main ingredient of these drops. What happens though, if you wind up poisoning the population, then you are up for some liabilities that could cut into their enormous profits. This may happen.
What was so valuable at the ranch that granite mountain was pressured to protect?
The need to protect Boulder Ranch is a question in everyone’s mind. Origionally we thought the GMHS crew was out to protect Yarnell but if you listen to Willis, it was singular intentions to protect Boulder Ranch. Not a ranch but has lots of machine equipment housed in a work shop next the ranch house. We have been told that a water bladder situation was parked there, that the Helm’s actually hired people to make defensible space two weeks before and that the Helms were not home at the time of the fire. Helms has a Phoenix Mfg. Co that does specialty machine work–maybe satellite parts for the government? We do not know what they really do but it is lucritive–income about 10 million per year. That part is public information and Helms seem to have much clout in the political world. Nothing bad about making big bucks for the government or contracts or being politically connected. But it might have something to do with why 19 men were ordered to protect the place.
Thank you Charlie- this also fits one of the hotshots’ text to family saying they were going to protect a ranch.
😊
good to see you smiling Diane
My comment was meant for another place
Joy, I did not need to save your life. I think the Irish God’s would have protected you even if I had left you there and you with your boots off waited a while longer so you could have joined the GMHS crew. You were hot, spent, and needing refreshment as bad as those GMHS crew people. So was I, but the Irish Gods and half a brain told me it was no time to be hanging around with a raging fire within minutes of climbing that mountain toward you once that wind changed. Shit, I went back despite your stubborness, my own fatigue and the heat and demanded you come with me. I also did not want murder charges on my ass since I knew you were in danger sitting there and if I did nothing to get you moving to the other side of the Weavers and away from that inferno then I would have deserved them as much as Marsh, Steed and those that caused them to go into that trap do. I don’t think you will have any problem talking your way into heaven, and the good Irish God’s already know that and have a place for you–WTKTT also. Gary has to talk to his Nordic Gods. Well it came out good, I am alive, barely, you are alive and kicking and no murder charges, and we did the right thing–away not toward a fire that no army could even make a dent in. Who controlled the Atom bomb–and this fire was delivering the same energy every 15 minutes.
Ok a little more perspective on that fire–wild fires double in velocity for every ten degrees. I estimate that where Joy was sitting was on a 60 degree slope. A 4 wheel drive or any other vehicle climber is stopped at 45 degrees. So this is steeper than a quad or 4×4 can go by physical laws. Now how fast is that fire going to move up such a slope–very fast since that is 6x even a ten degree slope. Now let us look at the very two track where Joy was setting. In the middle of that was a piece of aged but very straight pvc pipe- After the fire and even in that less dense area that pipe was blackened, browned and turned into a weathered and crooked snake right in the middle of that two track and almost exactly where the men descended toward the wild fire.
Also on one of our hikes with Dr. Ted Putnam, the worlds foremost and respected wild land fire death investigators (having been a 15 year smoke jumper as well) I did find a thing I though to be a meteorite right in the center of that two track not far from that melted pvc marker. Well it turned out to be a crumbly piece about the size of what we called boulder marbles as kids. Inside it revealed the pink color and was actually ribbon most likely that was in the middle of the two track left by Eric Marsh to ;point to the way that he had descended and the way the men were expected to follow. That was what you would have looked like even in that lesser vegetation area.
Yes we survived Joy– I am glad I retrieved you but there are a few that might wish I had not. I talked to Barbara yesterday–her stroke after the fire and the fact she never got help after the fire–not a dime. Yet the business across the street got plenty. But the stroke–it was after the fire. Joy ran adds to help Barbara. Barbara is an old time lady–runs back and forth to Nevada and has a hard time making ends meet at the bar. Well the controllers of the money were religious and how could they help out someone in a bar business? They could not and did not. Well the millions went elsewhere. So Joy has heart. She uses my money and advertises all around that who is the luky number 7 that is going to marry Sonny. Well I am angry at first but then I see it will bring business to the bar because the deal was people had to go there to meet and see who the hell was the lucky person to marry a guy that already had 6 wives. Of course. the 7th wife turned out to be Jack Daniels #7 and people had a good pot luck and drinks and laughed at the idea. It was a good thing for Barbara and maybe helped some and Joy was happy that she was able to do that. I was going to bring one of my burros or my horse into the bar but we cancelled that idea.
That brings to mind Diamond Jim, now deceased since the fire. By chance we knew each other, him being off the Flying A ranch and me a cowboy at 19 on the Brock Cattle Ranch, near Silver City NM. Charlie, my boss had shot Frank McCauley off the horse–I was off work that Saturday and not there but when back learned that Charlie had done this. Grace was upset and Charlie was gone looking for a lawyer–Forest Sanders, the same one dad had tried to hire when we were bulldozed under for I-10. Well, Diamond Jim was a cousin to Frank and wound up inheriting the very ranch I worked on–Charlie and Grace lost it in a lawsuit since Charlie put Frank in a wheelchair. I remember the worn out shooting gallery guy Charlie had paid 15 dollars for and had shot Frank with that thing and a 22 short that lodged on Frank’s spine paralyzing him waist down. Grace had turned down a million dollar offer for that ranch, its trout pond that the Bull got stuck in by breaking down their fence. That 15 dollar rifle and Charlie’s temper lost it all to Frank in the law suit.
Anyhow Diamond Jim I met at the arrowhead bar down the road and he remembered me, but thought since I had seen a couple of shoot outs by then that I was some sort of rogue–but time and understanding changed that. I really had nothing to do with what Charlie did and it was after all a family thing, Frank being married to Grace’s sister and bad family blood over old man Brock willing one sister all and nothing the other way. There were some wild stories about old man Brock liking some chinese gal that was taking care of him and willing much to her–but she disappeared and there was talk that Charlie and Grace might have been involved, but who knows about stories. I do know Charlie caught some punk teenage kids shooting up one of his windmills. He asked to inspect their gun then shot up their vehicle and gave them their gun back and told them the next time he would try it out on them. But what has this to do with Yarnell Fire–another casualty due to retardant? I do not know but the Arrowhead is in close range of the retardant as well and he did spend plenty time there as did Vicki who now is on cruches. I would say very bad stuff once it is in the air.
How small the minds of too many. They think by turning a Zombie in about his dogs they gain. They have no fortitude or character. I knocked on doors to locate the person that wants to provide problems to people but I could get not find out who is disgruntled. The lady and husband who did turn me in on the chickens would not answer the door yet their cars were there. You see if my dogs are truly leaving though this good fence I do want to appease my neighbors and do it right. But I appreciate that instead of calling the sheriff department they would instead just say neighbor, your dogs were out. I do not believe they were since I checked my fence and it is intact. Last night was cold, windy and nasty so i very much doubt that someone was even out there in that weather so my dogs could be loose and confront them and scare them. Maybe a coyote did but these people said that lying though their teeth because they want to make a stink. And they have because I will get the Foia and five have called me about this and they want to put up a suit against the offender for harassment since so many have been hurt by these people.
I agreed to the suit to the person that called me. I will sign with the five others that these people have been dogging. This lady has five but she is now going to go door to door to see who else will join the suit against these people and have been harmed by their actions. Good lord where do you find people that go door to door writing down minor infractions so they can call the county on their neighbors? These are so called Christian people and they do this to cause fines to people that scratch by instead of going there where they see the infraction and try help to cure it. I understand Therough (spelling?)and on Walden Pond. I had read many moons ago and the many Indians I drank a few with on the reservation. These will help people, not try to give them fines or harm them in any way. Officials of the county have no conscience–like the GMHS they do as they are told–strictly take orders–even if it hurts them to do so.
I wonder if it is a crook that is disgruntled because the dogs bark like hell when someone gets near the fence. Too many cannivers running around these days. Well my hearing is down to 13% and today on the phone some poor lady took near an hour to be able to get some business straight. So the dogs do not go, they are my hearing aids to anyone approaching–not dangerous dogs but noisy.
Charlie said-
Vicki who now is on cruches.
MY REPLY- I see the Irish Gods are with you tonight- some of the areas I should correct about me but my focus others as always- Vicki is in a wheelchair and unable to walk now Sonny-
I wonder if it is a crook that is disgruntled because the dogs bark like hell when someone gets near the fence. Too many cannivers running around these days. Well my hearing is down to 13% and today on the phone some poor lady took near an hour to be able to get some business straight. So the dogs do not go, they are my hearing aids to anyone approaching–not dangerous dogs but noisy.
HOw did it get two posts–apologize for that.
two posts Sonny or too toast?
🙂
charlie said- Also on one of our hikes with Dr. Ted Putnam…
MY REPLY- it was John MacLean when you found pink ribbon–
Ok a mnor detail. MacLean is depending on Holly for info. I thought it was Ted but then he did come along and see the ribbon later.
It is a good sign, you can still read.
I skim- I do not r e a d
Clarification – But keep in mind I am describing the FIRE world that I knew which has obviously undergone some major changes. For example, the huge impact that Wildland Urban Interface now has on just about everybody and when I was there that problem was primarily a California issue.
RTS has also described some major changes in how hotshot crew bosses are used on the line and we saw evidence of that on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Apparently the tactics are more refined now and hotshot crew bosses are now used more in developing fire line strategy and in implementing that strategy where the rubber meets the road…so to speak. That increased responsibility probably has come with the higher grades and more complex job descriptions that now come with hotshot crew bosses.
As I have said many time, my credentials back in the day would not have qualified me to be a squad boss in today’s fire world…everything is much more professional now as opposed to, “you’re the last man standing so you’re in charge.” Which is why I have said for three years now that what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire SHOULD have been unthinkable. And of course it was unthinkable…right up to the minute it became a nightmare the WF community can’t wake up from and will remain so for many, many generations to come.
Losing almost an entire hotshot crew like that….under those circumstances…I am really still at a loss for words to describe how that makes me feel even after all of this time and I know that I am far from being alone with my dilemma.
Well…the shifting sand is whispering my name and I must respond. And FYI…current and former WF have a standing invitation to come and join me…email me at [email protected], you will have fun, or at least an adventure that will be fun more or less.
That should be cookie cutter interface. No disrespect to the urbanites, but cookie cutter describes the beehive mentality much clearer.
Gary wrote:
You have randomly brought up a very good point much like even a blind hog occasionally finds an acorn. A point that is simple on its face but complex at its core. In addition to being like so much of this story, in that its similar to an opinion in that it has many layers.
MY REPLY:
Not to be demeaning Gary…
Can’t my hog be at least a SEEING hog Gary- give me some credit. How many other acorns do you still think are still hidden from the rest of us? I like acorns…they are optimistic fellas
http://blogs.psychcentral.com/humor/files/2011/06/2011-Mental-Health-humor-When-Positive-Psychology-Fails.jpg
I do not have gifts like you Gary…but I do have “fortitude” and that means something to me at least.
I also do not give up on the living or the dead-
So many can “bury” the T R U T H
yet all of us are a committee of ONE and serve a purpose in this all-
Mine is well you figured it out already Gary I am related to Yoda.
and I like chewing on my cane, made of gimer bush…
anyways, I prefer to have an atmosphere of togetherness amongst diverse minds versus isolating someone for BEING different…
I did tonight send off my final notice to Peeples Valley Fire Dept as well as Arizona State GMHS Memorial Park my final notices- If I do not see communication by 11-21-16 2pm I will be filing a case—
Also for all foias that did not fulfill my foia the first round, this Winter I am redoing it the second round.
I am always going to ASK for more data Gary but that does not make me RANDOM when I am not speaking it all just a women who dealt with crony nepotism behaviors already and watch for the most part (I do as a Cancer have irrational emotional moody moments but I own up to them but I am a good gal) but yes I stand firm there is some STRONG missing elements that could even effect your pension Gary in the grander scale of things…I have to gather and organize in a chaotic past 3 years where I was not near my foias because I keep them in storage-
CTRL F is so cool— I just learned it-
Charlie: go on your keyboard and hit Ctrl F and on top right you can type in search bar a word and it brings you there…too cool. That is HOW I found the “hog” comment because I was tied to other stuff
Joy,
You have a great many admirable qualities. I have given you a great deal of praise for being the energizer bunny and your perseverance in going after the FOIA stuff and I know you are a very smart, although you think different than I do, in that you seem to form your ideas on a different plane that I can attain, not that it is wrong, just different, than most people…OK everyone I know. But we have a big tent here and many of the ideas we have had here seem to come at random times out of the blue by a great many people which includes YOU.
My “blind hog” reference was directed at what appeared to me to a completely random, unrelated, rabbit hole thought that has nothing to do whatsoever in any way with the YHF but we have lots of those and I find them entertaining because well…I don’t have much of a life..
That random thought was to ask “the group” if the phrase “Monday morning quarterback” is a commonly used phrase because four women who are associated by the Light Of Zartha (or whatever you said) in some kind of alternative universe that you visit us from are connected somehow through the Power of Zog the Key Master who rules over the Gatekeeper to your world…or realm…whatever you call the place you come from.
Now..if none of that was random…much like a blind hog would find an acorn by accident, and you fully intended to query the group if they have ever heard the phrase in question thereby establishing that it is not a unique phrase to the Fours Sisters who have a special cosmic force that Zarthan uses to travel back and forth to your world…well then fine. It was all planned out and part of some master plan that I’m sure you are diligently working on and will reveal to the rest of us after The Others have come forward from your world to reveal to us what they also know, but we can’t because we have not been blessed by Zartha…or Zarthan…or the Four Sisters who are cosmically connected…somehow and all use the phrase “Monday morning quarterback.”
OK? You are always so harsh and judgmental with me…you make me feel…so alone. I am trying as hard as I an to fit in here and just have a few friends,,,,even if they are cyber friends. Just look at how hard I try to get along with WTKTT and it is some kind of robotic humorless cyborg. And now I have lost the Bob twins, Mr. Bob The Second, (you should call him Robert but he lets me call him Bob) and…what hurts most of all because he said some truly hurtful things before he stormed out…Bob Powers. I thought he and I were going to go fishing together at some point even though I don’t fish, but that dream is dead as well. Nothing is working out as I had planned, I am going back to the dunes to ride “Em like I stole “Em. I tried to turn my life around and ride responsibly, but I just can’t do it..
Ciao (which actually means “if you need anything let me know”) And yes…I do think it will be a good idea if I schedule myself for another brain MRI…I think my tumor is getting bigger because I seem to rambling a LOT today.
Whoa now, I just caught this phrase, “I also do not give up on the living or the dead”
Are you communicating with the dead AGAIN? You know how much trouble you got into with the Fundamentalist Christian Coalition of Debra Pfijngton and Amanda Marsh last time…remember?
Don’t you think you should just leave them alone (the dead) and concentrate on the living for awhile, and not whack that hornets nest with a stick?
I guess what I am getting at…is that I don’t want Sonny or Tex or Charlie to find you tied to that white cross he keeps lookin’ at on the hill (or mound as WTKTT would say) overlooking the sacred ground and burned at the stake. Know what I am sayin”? The Christian faith has a very violent history…and some of it is not even history. So watch your 6.
P.S. Or at least until you reveal your secrets to us. That is the only reason any of us are still here.
Gary…i wish it were that simple…in quiet i have been working on helping someone pinpoint the death of one of the greatest men that came on Earth…she knows I would never say anything public but when I saw a certain unique unusual necklace she knew what I meant..like to her it was validation and to me creepy…so it is not something of the norm or anything I accept but it is what is shown…just like Freckles was in the 🚌 and later a loved one told me about that person…it just happens…and no I could not know about the necklace or google or find out something like that..why do you think I stay with it…for the living and the dead…some can go on but some are stuck in lingo both of the living and the dead…if I said who I would have part two of some crony ass court case…but for all affected including me I stay with it.
Also I am stuck on the belief that what happened with Deborah and the other widow was really a twist on perceptions and misinformation and they can have their views on me but I know what I said to both on all events…I know both women would never wish ill on anyone and that includes me…they are good women. I am not saying that because I feel like it but because I seen in person how many lives they both keep touching and I wish in memory happy bday 10.30 to Wade…and Scotts and Rose just passed…I wont forget the men…the yeah babies to the fro-tastic to the stache-less written words on the erase boards where it said 37.6% and dropping and 10% and its engrained in my head who laid next to who on that sacred ground and my beef with the memorial park is simply define the borders and let me know is those 150 invited private guests going to have their state land pass and are the exempt too from the law…I just want to ensure I have the written paperwork of what is going on for the Weavers that was my spot before the fire…it was my area to go to and now it is just a point a to b place…it has no meaning like it once did for me…it was stolen from me when higher ups took a dying fire and did the. Chaotic end result yet got bonuses and awards…so I keep asking and maybe it is because I do not have a secret Gary but many DO carry the knowledge to share and not my position to do so…
Joy the only blind hogs were those that ate the mercury coated corn that was intended to kill crows that feasted on farmers’s plantings. The pigs went blind but did not die, but the people that ate the pork did. Pigs store poisons in their fat, good reason the Jews God told them not to feast on pork. Wrap an Islamic in a pork skin and you fucked his chances of getting into heaven and raping 70 virgins. So the old porker is dangerous all around. I would like to feed one the orange retardant and see who wants to eat the pork then. Lots of people would step up to the plate because they have been brainwashed that this shit is safe.
As a side note mercury coated corn and I have seen it when I was in my teens is a dark orange reddish color. Kind of like the color of the agent orange retardant but darker in color. It is outlawed now, since the deaths of people that ate the pork that ate the red mercury coated corn. I wonder how many did die using that corn intended to kill crows. Back then, mercury like asbestos were favorites/ and mercury was considered a good healer in certain medicines. Well if you kill someone you did get rid of the disease. My Dad mined mercury ore out of Terlingua, Texas. He made three flasks of pure mercury out of his retorts there but split it with his partner and left that pace. He was leary of it though and knew the dangers of the fumes. The government was glad to get it during WW11 since it was used making primers for the bullets and much needed to produce ammo.
Oh, a flask of mercury was 70 pounds of the stuff in a cast iron bottle. He used to keep one with a screw in cast iron cork on top. I remember it was half full–he got 2400 bucks for those three flasks he sold the government==his partner cried after Dad gave him half the money and Dad said it is all yours–the mine and retort. Dad said he was doing all the work and the other guy was a lazy freeloader. I believe my Dad, shit he was still digging down in mine holes in his 70’s. Not a lazy bone in that man–and with a fourth grade education knew more than most geologists with bat hides. The old company commander Kuykendahl of Prescott was very wise –common sense goes a long ways. Did those men learn that on the battlefield–yea the battlefield of life.
**
** DEDICATION OF NEW ARIZONA ‘PUBLIC’ PARK WILL BE A ‘PRIVATE’ CEREMONY
As has been predicted… the ‘dedication’ of the new PUBLIC Arizona ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ will NOT be ‘open to the PUBLIC’ at all.
Because nothing messes up a good dedication of a PUBLIC park more than inviting the PUBLIC ( who actually paid for it ) to actually attend the ‘dedication’… right?
The PUBLIC will only be allowed access to the new PUBLIC park AFTER the dedication ceremony is over.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Hotshots memorial trail nearly complete; path expected to be open Nov. 29
Published: Yesterday – October 22, 2016 6:20 a.m.
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/oct/22/hotshots-memorial-trail-nearly-complete-path-expec/
————————————————————————-
Although noting that the details are still being determined, Arizona State Parks Executive Director Sue Black said the official dedication event would be by-invitation only – for family members, dignitaries, and involved officials. She estimates that the event will include about 150 people. The park will then be open to the general public by 1 p.m. that day.
————————————————————————-
Well…that really sucks. I have already bought non refundable tickets to Arizonaistan to attend. I do think however, I can tell you one reason this is happening and that has been a focal point for discussion here for years (?) now. And that is how the fuck are they going to get the families and dignitaries into that God Forsaken piece of worthless desert up that steep ass trail? And FYI…there is NOT a corner or piece of Arizonaistan I have not been in, through and over and I can tell you that is one God Forsaken piece of real estate.
Well…this is what I have predicted all along. Separate the have from the have-nots, make special arrangements for special people and FUCK the tax paying public. I just wish the fuckin’ republicans in Yavapai County would quit being a flock of sheep and fall in line behind the Queen of Quid Pro Quo and make her pay a price at the ballot box and write in a deserving candidate.
What a crock of shit!
Reply to Gary Olson post on October 24, 2016 at 7:41 am
>> Gary Olson asked…
>>
>> …how the fuck are they going to get the families and dignitaries
>> into that God Forsaken piece of worthless desert up that
>> steep ass trail?
No word on that yet.
We SHOULD be able to ‘know’ what the real ‘plans’ are there… because there HAS been another PUBLIC meeting of this PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ where they have discussed some of these ‘details’… but true to their ongoing belief that “LAWS are for OTHER PEOPLE… not US”… they have not released the ‘minutes’ of that recent meeting within 72 hours ( even if only in draft form ) as Arizona Open Meetings LAW requires.
One of the photos on Arizona Park Department’s own shiny-new website dedicated to this ‘new PUBLIC Park’ actually shows a helicopter on the ground right there near the deployment site… on that little ‘square’ patch that was originally bulldozed the night of June 30, 2013 to assist with the retrieval of the bodies. So they ( apparently ) DO have a way to land a chopper right there near the lobster-cages-filled-with-rocks-connected-by-chains surrounding the actual place where they all burned to death.
But if they really are planning to have the official ‘dedication’ of this PUBLIC Park out there at the deployment site ( that is not a certainly yet ) versus down in the $670,000 parking lot ( built by soon-to-be-Arizona-Senator Karen Fann’s brother )… and they really are planning on having 150 people attend… just one helicopter is not going to cut the cake.
Something tells me both of the following will turn out to be true…
1. They really are planning on having the actual ‘dedication’ be out there at the original deployment site where the lobster-cages-with-rocks are now.
2. They have ( somehow ) wrangled ‘permission’ from Lee and DJ Helm to, one more time, just use their property as a ‘parking lot’ and they will have ‘shuttles’ moving the ‘family members’ and the ‘dignitaries’ to/from the lobster-cages-filled-with-rocks. Emails obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA regarding the ‘Staff Ride’ show that Lee and DJ Helm were sick of all this and had ONLY given permission for their place to be used as a parking lot up to the END of the ‘Staff Ride’ development.
There is no way in hell even half of the ‘family members’ could ever do that that ‘hike’… so if they really are going to have the ‘private ceremony’ out where the lobster-cages are… they MUST be planning on some kind of ‘vehicular access’ to the site for just that one day.
SIDENOTE: I will bet there are no two people on the entire planet who wish harder that those men had stayed where they were that day in the safe black and not been stupid enough to die just a long-par-five length’s distance from their property… than Lee and DJ Helm.
The article above says that the ‘Memorial Fund’ has about $100,000 left in it.
Maybe ( this time ) they are actually going to PAY Lee and DJ Helm for the use of their property.
There is also absolutely no word yet whether anyone from the MEDIA is going to be on this ‘invitation-only list’ to attend the ‘dedication’ of this new Arizona State Park that the PUBLIC has ( already ) paid for.
wwtktt stated:
They have ( somehow ) wrangled ‘permission’ from Lee and DJ Helm to, one more time, just use their property as a ‘parking lot’ and they will have ‘shuttles’ moving the ‘family members’ and the ‘dignitaries’ to/from the lobster-cages-filled-with-rocks. Emails obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA regarding the ‘Staff Ride’ show that Lee and DJ Helm were sick of all this and had ONLY given permission for their place to be used as a parking lot up to the END of the ‘Staff Ride’ development.
MY REPLY_
I do wish I could freely speak about this topic but in my investigation there is too much I cannot discuss but if you are an investigators- get your FOIA and ask for ALL emails in regards to YHF from City of Prescott, Arizona State Forestry and if you do not add certain names as well as just YHF so add Willis, Steinbrink, Moser, GMHS, Helms, etc…They want SPECIFIC and DATES and TIMES because they did not fulfill my foia completely but I got some good stuff- the hardest material for me to read is the foias about these men as individuals- it breaks my heart so bad and deep even for Brendan…I have to go back to my storage area— talk later maybe…
Now for the park and it being PRIVATE; answer me this because many media folks now KNOW the shortcuts of the Weavers and have got their permission slips and so are they going to be in trouble for catching this private event—what is the consequences on an open land area that surrounds this RESTRICTED land with not the proper legal signage and fencing????- there is areas to legally see these spots- so if they catch videos and photos of this invite only event; are they now the paparazzi bad folks??? let me know..
I would imagine the Helms would grant permission–they must know that the 19 men died because they were ordered to protect the Helm’s ranch. Refer to the GMHS crew overhead, D. Willis video for that information. However, considering the taxes the Helms pay, they ought to honor all taxpayers and demand that anyone who is a loyal citizen to this country ought to have access to any ceremony concerning the deaths of `19 public servants, paid for by tax dollars, all the way from all ceremonies involving their demise and even the memorial and the $670,000 parking lot. It would have seemed that a simple access road would have been easily obtainable for much less money, but then we realize that the FS, State, and Fire Fighting Fire Gods do not want people to go there to view what was one of the world’s most misguided management efforts that would kill 19 young fire fighters. They have kept reputations paramount in this disaster, and we keep reminding them, at the explainable priority to the cost of future wild land fire fighting lives. Unexcusable, for certain.
But I leave most of that investigation to the real tough investigators, those wild land fire fighting elite that are steadfastly demanding the true story be revealed and the other elite investigators that do want to have the story well publicized–they do care for the lives of future wild land fire fighters and are not willing to allow these errors dismissed under the pretense of a God caused natural occurance.
Be that as it is, I again will harp on the retardant. At MacDonalds of Wickenburg I met the pastor Gerald and wife Alice. Her health maladies after the fire are mounting. She now tells me that their immediate neighbor, Suzan, is not down very ill with respiratory problems. She also says Veto, another well known local is also complaing of respiratory problems. Veto is a very stout and healthy looking individual–maybe in his late 40’s or 50’s. No reason to believe that man should be having problems if you saw him. Amen, brother Gerald. This has been a regular occurance with Joy and me. Go to town and meet someone from Yarnell you have not met before and you will find they, after the fire have found new health problems–some like Raul and his wife–she suffered a stroke or the young Zack Ashoor with asthma problems that escalated and killed him after the fire.
Well we are going to try to compile a list of individuals we believe the chemically poisonous orange slop they dumped on people (there are photos of the pastor’s roof turned orange after the retardant drops). Perhaps the soon to be Senator Fann will want to have someone take a good look at the situation after she sees the long list of dead Yarnellites after the fire along with a long list of those now debilitated–for example Shor now in a wheel chair, yet about Veto’s age.
Maybe we can get a bunch of taxpayer dollars together for memorials for these people for their participation as guinea pigs. Perhaps also we can convince taxpayers to money up another memorial for these deceased people along with the GMHS crew since they are victims of this Yarnell tragedy as well.
I do have a lady helping me to compile a list of individuals both dead and now suffering from new debilities after the huge agent orange retardant drops that amount to hundreds of thousands of gallons of chemical now completely surrounding the very small town of Yarnell (pop. count before the fire 645).
I think never before in history has a small town been so massively and closely surrounded by this so called inert chemical called retardant. Jumbo Jet loads have been dropped in our back Yards, first over 230 thousand gallons during the Yarnell fire that killed the 19, then because our local fire department started a burnout on the east side, we got move massive doses of retardant from the Tenderfoot fire. See there was no line cut on the east side so that retardant had to be called in to get that burnout from backing into the east side residents. It did anyway to some degree and wiped out three structures and I see even backed over some areas despite that massive dump of retardant to keep it from doing so.
Of course, I will publish the list of people here once we get what we can compiled. Some residents that have moved since the fire so we may never know their fate.
I believe the young firemen are led to believe this retardant is safe and inert to humans. Certainly when you are young your defense systems and the loss of lung cells, even up to one lung will most likely not be noticed. It is the elderly and already health compromised person that this stuff is so detrimental to. Not only did the Fire Gods screw up in their management of the fire and the historic loss of 19 fire fighters, they managed to contaminate the area around Yarnell and cause further damage and death to the elderly. \
These are my opinions and beliefs, and I believe the lists we are beginning to compile will bear this out.
If our Senator does not take notice, perhaps some of the other concerned citizens and wild land fire fighters in other states will take notice and perhaps forward some of this information to their Senators and Representatives.
I am looking forward to reading on here about Woodsman, Muzzy, Rocksteady, and RTS of THEIR opinions of Gary’s recent comments.
It will be very interesting to see-
What are brogans? They are also called clod hoppers or work shoes. These things were a common shoe for the lowly worker in the 50s and 60s. My dad always wore them. When you wore though the soles you would take an old discarded tire and cut out the tread to resole those clod hoppers with. As a kid, I did resole these things several times since the price of new ones was hard to come by for a prospertor–miner Juarachies-those tire sandals you see out of them. I bought a pair lately that have weaved leather above the tire treads. That puts you a little farther up the food chain above those lower castes that have only the tire tread built into a thong. You are really moving up the food chain if you have brogans even if they are resoled with tire treads. Then if you think you want to move more toward royalty get a set of Whites Logger Boots to adorn your feet with.
I wear mostly cowboy boots these days for dress and quite often those military surplus boots that did time on the Arabian Deserts. I like the shoe laces on those things and they do a good job keeping cactus out of your toes.
I did get Joy a set of LaCross Snake boots once but she gave them away. I think she still has the worn ones that cost her $48,000 after they did not do the job. But I would best let her explain the expensive nature of Snake Boots. Maybe they are like flimsy fire blankets that the wild land fire fighter gets. A false sense of security that diverts the brain from directing the body to do what the GMHS should have done==run from the fire and into the boulders. It is nothing against one to run from a rattler–I have done it and believe me some will occasionally come at you, especially the smaller ones of mohave nature. Snakes have personality like people. Joy says my personality comes after coffee. Attitude can be found in a bottle of hooch.
Gary, have you in your professional career have ever considered your own self as one of these FIRE GODS? or has anyone else thought that of you and whom?
Is there a vote or poll out on this?
it is election year.
No…I was not even close to a fire god. I was never anything more than a hotshot crew boss and worked as a red carded crew boss. I never had any interest in progressing up the chain. I only wanted to fight fire with the crew. Well…technically I was Sector Boss qualified but I never worked in that position except once to get my care punched because it was part of my official training plan.
And the fire operation coordination jobs were office jobs were I fought fire with a radio console, telephone and computer and those jobs can’t begin to qualify to be a fire god.
Fire gods are the people who control other people’s lives on the fire line. It is situational, but I think someone would have to be a Type II Fire Boss or higher to be a bona fide fire god, but that doesn’t include Roy Hall because he was a retired pick up contract IC and so I wouldn’t call him a fire god.
Everybody has their own definition, but to me, they had to be somebody of real significance…I talked about Van Bateman, Bill Buck, Jimmie Hickman, Al Bell, Hub Harris…people like that. Regional Fire Coordinators, Type I Incident Commanders, Regional Fire Management Officers, big shots, players, movers and shakers. Roy Hall was just a lackey. I think he used to be a fire god, but that was a long time ago..
Cordes, Musser, Able, Willis…all flunkies.
Crew bosses…even hotshot crew bosses are the lowest level on a fire line organizational chart. I can’t remember all of that bullshit ICS so I am going to explain it in the old Large Fire Organization.
Fire Boss – ran the whole fire, and all of the functions, plans, logistics, public information, finance, supply and LINE etc.
Line Boss – ran the whole fire line
Division Boss – ran the whole division, there were usually 3 divisions for a big fire, maybe more depending on…everything. .
Sector Boss – ran the sector and there were usually about 3 sectors per division, maybe more depending on…everything..
Crew Boss – ran their crew and the piece of line their crew was assigned within their sector. Pretty simple….just the way I liked it in four easy to remember steps. They didn’t call us grunts and ground pounders for nothing.
1. Cut fire line and back fire it.
2. Cut fire line and burn it out.
3. Cut fire line and backfire it and burn it out.
4. Mop it up.
Oh…and if those four steps weren’t enough…cut more fire line.
Oh…and one more thing as long as we are at it. A Forest Dispatcher or Fire Operations Center Coordinator, or Fire Management Officer is the shot caller and can order up an army and put air tankers in the air from other states based on their knowledge of the area the fire is reported to be in, the weather that day, the weather that is forecast and the color of the smoke, and what the smoke is doing from what is being reported by a look out tower or whoever, if the smoke is black and laying over in an area with heavy slash that had been logged in July in the afternoon…hang on to your shorts because you are going for a ride.
BUT, just as soon as someone is on the fire, even if they are a GS-2 first year WF, they are the fire boss and running the show. The office types can give advice and make suggestions…even strong suggestions, but the fire boss is in charge of the fire and they call the shots.
Gary, that grunt sounds like a miner mucker and bad mf. Drill holes, place dynamite in holes, blast hell out of things, muck it out–repeat the same. Shower radiation off after leaving the rat hole–if you were in a Uranium rat hole.
OK…obviously I am in a mood to type today, so just to get a little further down into the weeds here, I want to fill in some of the gaps about what it takes to be a fire god. That term has been thrown around on this thread the last three years and I don’t think it is fully understood.
And once again, there is no set definition, this is just what I think. It takes MORE than just being somebody who decides who does what on the fire line on ONE fire, even a big one, it takes somebody in a position to effect the entire lives of hundreds or even thousands of WF..
Does a crew get funded for next year or disbanded.
When does the crew get to start work in the spring and how long do they get to work in the winter.
Who gets the choice assignments, promotions, details or to work on high profile special projects..
Who gets groomed to move up the ranks.
Deciding how much money each region gets, how much each forest gets, how much each district gets.
Who gets a new engine and who loses an engine.
Who gets move up money to preposition resources based on anticipated fire conditions.
Who gets to dip into the slush fund.
Who gets the air tankers, tanker bases, zone fire caches etc. big stuff.
Which position are lost by consolidation and which positions get expanded and promoted because of those consolidators.
The fire gods were not even at the district level unless they were a high profile incident commander and that is rare. They may not even be at the forest level unless they are the same.
It is always the people at the regional level…the Regional Director of Aviation and Fire Management, the Regional Coordinator which is like a forest dispatcher but at the regional office who coordinate the “blue room” which looks like something out of a movie.
There is the crew desk, the aircraft desk, the equipment desk, the overhead desk etc. maps and blinking lights everywhere and very dim blue lighting that runs 24 hours a day, 365 days a year (probably not on Christmas Day, someone will just be on call and monitoring it from home. And of course this is all USFS, and in Region 3 the Southwest Region, it is at the Regional Office in Albuquerque and it is what has been called SWCC here on the thread. SWCC is a forest dispatch office on steroids, and the WF inter-agency center of the universe for the WF industrial complex…the WF Pentagon…is called the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise Idaho which is such hallowed ground,
I have never even seen it. I have been in and out of NIFC en route and returning from campaign fires because it is kind of like the Atlanta Airport for WF and a charter jet hub because it is run out of the Boise Airport and the Boise National Guard complex,, but I have never been in the operations center…I was never worthy enough.
It’s complicated and really cool…fun stuff..
Yes they are the ones that control the crews and then deny they did if anything goes wrong, especially if 19 men loose their lives because of their decisions to protect a single ranch at the careless and needless risk of those mens lives. The ranch suvived despite the men not surviving and even without the efforts of the men that were sent to protect it. This ordeal stinks with so much hidden from public view. When can the Fire Gods get away with risking and loosing 19 young lives to put them against a fire that even the devil himself could not have stopped? One way is to say how is your comfort zone to do what we want you to do? This way then they can say see those men made up their minds themselves and they were comfortable with risking their lives against a fire that was impossible for men on the ground to stop. And what about that ranch could they have saved considering that had they gotten there they would have been as scorched as the walls on the buildings.
Willis says they could not just set there with their thumbs up their asses. They had to do something. I would say that is not true. The men we saw were depleted and looked to me like most would have gladly crawled up under one of those shrub oaks and snoozed away those few hours that they were demanded to go down into a basin to act like they could stop such an inferno in 45mph winds. But their actions by someone’s estimation would look good and whatever idiots believed their feeble efforts made against the fire Joy and I were witnessing had no sense of wild land fire fighting at all. This is not only my own civilian opinion, but the many experienced and elite wild land fire fighter opinions.
So why have we no heard from these elite wild land fire fighters and their opinions in the media. Why has not Fernanda Santos of the NY Times, Josh Eells of Rolling Stones, and many other of the main media and movie set generation given them equal time against the opinions of the Wild Land Fire Gods? Well to do so first would change the whole heroic bullshit that is out and make this out to what it truly is–the worst wild land fire fighting effort in wild land fire fighting history.
If a book were to be written it would be instruction on how never to fight wild land fires and GMHS training, ways, and their Fire God Bosses methods would be exposed. The redactions–all but personal phone numbers and addresses- would become public so it would be known what really went down at Yarnell. Anyone crew taking orders and acting against all common sense (hill billy to Donut) wild land fire fighting rules and procedures of safety would immediately be sanctioned–bosses either demoded to ground ppunding status or dismissed. And especially anyone ordering a crew of 19 to needlessly drop off in the most unexplainable and dangerous situation possible to protect a single “Ranch” –let that person be prosecuted to the hilt. You certainly do not give out awards to these people or tout them as heroes for killing so many.
Can fire God’s be flunkies? I suppose to be a fire god you have to have some poor bastard looking up at you. Does a Greek God of fire fighting equal a Fire God. These are the types of questions that need explaining to us non fire fighting entities.
How did we get mostly flunkies on the Yarnell Fire? We’re any qualified to deal with that situation?
This is a good question Dianne. I thing the fire gods were there but incognito.
Yes, Gary, we are in Arizonastan. It may not last, the Mexican population that the Sheriff hates are taking it back. They understand that Arizona was part of Mexico and so was New Mexico, Colorado and even the illustrious California. They will own it and now do since the Hispanic population outweighs the gringo and is increasing. We might secede from America and become either a hispanic ruled population of our own or if enough Mexicans show up part of the Mexican scene. Catholics believe the more kids the merrier. The gringos want a few. Well the numbers factor out in favor of hispanics. and catholics. Not a good idea to be fucking over hispanics like Sheriff Arapaio is famous for. But he looks to be a looser now anyhow.
Lets hope they can tolerate an Irish bloke that speaks and writes pretty damn good Spanish. I know how to wear Huarachies and sombreroes as well. I think a few gringos ought to bone up on their spanish if they keep hanging around Arizona. But to me it is a good thing–Mexico was never bad to me–but then I was never a dope dealer or doper.
The arabs are here but never to take over the Mexicans or hispanics. When the shit hits the fan, Afghanistan is where they will pine for. America is due to have Hillary and Hillary and company have themselves an underground hide out in the Denver area. I know I won’t be allowed in and glad, but I wonder if Trump will be invited.
As says the CIA in the know and the man working as a scientist for the powers that be, the shit will seriously hit the fan most likely sooner than later. I don’t know if an underground hide away means anything–it might be safer in Argentina.
With what I see and how people have become rats and snitches with a governing body that has increasingly become an adversary to the common man, then it is obvious that we are beginning to look at the dissolution of this system. Be ready and remember how 911 came so swiftly. Good to have a few groceries on the shelf and maybe some protection that Hillary so badly does not want the common man to have. In Watts riot, only those armed were unscathed. Hitler, Mao, and any dictator will disarm the public–that gives carte blanche to do as they please. Hillary knows this and so does any dictator–Trump will get around to it.
After Obama, we see that lies are the way all politicians operate. Being pawns of the corporate system they will do as told.
Too many have died even at the face of a cow pond. They were dying of dehydration but saw the dirty water and did not drink because it had cow piss and flies in it. The cows could drink but they could not.
I was once faced with that three days on the desert, and already hallucinating due to dehydration–close to death. I by the good luck of the Irish came upon a filthy and stinking cow pond. Did I hesitate to drink–hell no and once I had some H20 in me my mind came back and I did survive that ordeal. That was decades ago and salmonella has not set in yet.
So do not forget three days without water, even stinking diry water that cows do drink, will give you more time–maybe a lot more since the alternative without water is death. Too many mexicans trying to get a job here as slaves even are found dead on these Arizona deserts. It will not be long before the Hispanics rule Arizona, NM and California so that does not happen. We treat the Arabs that hate us so well because they have oil but still want to deny help to our immediate neighbors to the south. That will bite us in the ass down the line.
Chuy Garza when I had the Texas Bar in Safford once volunteered, Sonny, I am not a wet back but I am a moist back. I said what the hell is a moist back? He said well I was born in Loredo, TX right next the river and got myself a moist back. Chuy always had some kind of thing to make you smile. But I wont elaborate on some of his more riske jokes. I learned a lot from Chuy and he was a jail worker there in Safford. Chono the deputy sheriff used to come into the bar a lot. He was a big fellow to say the least, but he was kind and not out to ruin people or prove a point. He kept good order and was proper. A good man with good sense. In those days I supported the bar off my fire agate diggings and a turquoise mine. When things were short I could always make a $1500 run to the mines on the weekend. Jaime, my youngest was born in safford, and that night in a lean to the black froze into a block of ice in a cedar tree but a good fire like Joy and I had for the GMHS kept the new born alive at the fire agate mine. Ted the son that became an underwater welder and then a Chemical Engineering student told me Dad once I attended seven schools in one year because you were a tramp miner., He said he never regretted that and thought it was why he had such an uncanny ability to make friends with people==something I see in Joy. He was at Las Cruces three time president of his class since he only ran three times and again he was head of his underwater welding class in Washington entrusted with funds in the thousands there. Excuses never wash, it is what we do and without blaming others for our errors and failures. My kids could have said, Dad you were a terrible father but instead they did what I did==the best with what I was given. There is no prouder father than I am. Why I understand all this terror and the hurt of the loved ones of GMHS. Those kids depended upon the expertise of Marsh and Steed who did fail their men ==only the truth will rectify this situation and save future lives.
Oh the black froze in the cedar tree. I woke up and chunked up the fire early then i kept watching our black cat in the cedar tree and wondering why he did not move. Finally I went over and soon as I got hold of him I knew he was a block of ice. Had I known he was there in the night I would have brought him near us, but he blended in too well with the night. My concerns were with the newborn, and I neglected to think about that old cat. I think people look at the GMHS youngsters, but they pass over the older generation that has suffered and died as well due to this wild land fire and its accouterments.
That was Deer Creek, near Klondyke AZ, not Alaska, but that night it was Alaska.
The world is simple if people get real and talk truth. But now we have people worried about promotions, reputations, being sued, and the complications brought on because truth in the case of Yarnell would diminish many and uphold suits, even likely jail some. All this jumble of lies to circumvent problems will cost lives of future wild land fire fighters. Play up the heroism but deny the errors that killed the men saves a few but will kill many.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 21, 2016 at 1:29 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> speaking of cases
>>
>> here is ACRI vs STATE
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tphNGwUCWMw
Thank you, Joy.
Yes… that is the now-public VIDEO of the recent ‘oral arguments’ that took place in front of the Arizona Court of Appeals regarding the 135+ consolidated lawsuits filed by Yarnell citizens and property owners against Arizona Forestry.
I have a FULL ‘transcript’ of this ‘appeal hearing’ that I will publish here shortly ( after I clean it up a little )… but below is one of the ‘highlights’.
Brock Heathcotte, one of the lawyers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office tasked with ‘representing’ Arizona Forestry in the property damage lawsuits, just admitted ( in the open-court oral arguments ) that Arizona Forestry had both the DUTY and the RESPONSIBILITY to ‘not act in a negligent manner’ and to make SURE that FIRST ( original ) ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ did NOT ‘escape’ its location on State Trust Lands.
From the recent ‘oral arguments’…
NOTE: At this point in the ‘appeal’ hearing… Arizona Division 1 Appellate Court Judge Peter Swann is asking a critical question DIRECTLY to Brock Heathcotte, the attorney at the podium speaking on behalf of Arizona Forestry…
The very reason they were even HAVING the ‘appeal hearing’ is because the lower court Judge DENIED the plaintiffs even their simple constitutional right to have a ‘day in court’ because HE ruled that Arizona Foresty had no “duty” to handle the fire reasonably… even though Arizona Forestry had obviously ‘taken charge’ of the Yarnell Fire on Friday night and onward…
NOTICE also, below, that Appellate Court Judge Peter Swann correctly points out ( to AZFS Attorney Brock Heathcotte ) that it is NOT the Appeals Court’s job to argue the FACTS of this case. They are ONLY required to look at the ‘allegations’ with regards to their ( his words ) “face value”… and decide whether this case really should RETURN to the lower court… and PROCEED TO TRIAL… in order to actually argue the ‘allegations’ and the ‘facts’ themselves… in THAT ‘arena’.
That’s what a TRIAL is FOR.
Win or lose… it’s the place where we are ALL supposed to be able to present ‘allegations’ and have them properly ‘presented’ and ‘argued’ to a conclusion.
And ( as attorney David Abney for the plaintiffs pointed out )… that is ALL the citizens of Yarnell are asking for, here. A proper “day in court” whereby ( win or lose ) the ‘allegations’ and the ‘facts’ are properly ‘presented’ and ‘argued’.
From the hearing…
———————————————————————————————-
Appellate Court Judge Peter Swan: But the allegation is that… it… uh… that essentially there was a… a collection of people… uh… from various agencies working to… stop this fire… and that the STATE supervised the effort and directed it. That’s the allegation. I don’t know what sort of factual disputes might arise from it… but that’s the allegation we have to take at face value. So… so IF the STATE ‘decides’ to coordinate those efforts… doesn’t it bear some responsibility for coordinating the efforts ‘reasonably’?
AZFS Attorney Brock Heathcotte: Uh… sure.
Judge Swan: And isn’t that “a duty”?
Brock Heathcotte: Uh… sure.
LONG pause. No one says anything and there is dead silence in the courtroom. Even Judge Swan is astounded and doesn’t quite know what to say next. Heathcotte has just basically fully admitted that the lawsuits should never have been ‘dismissed’ at all by the lower court.
————————————————————————————————-
Now that we can see he full VIDEO of these ‘oral arguments’… there really is no question that attorney David Abney, representing the citizens of Yarnell, actually WON these ‘oral arguments’.
The ‘Oral Arguments’ alone are not the only thing taken into consideration by the Appellate Court Judges when they make their ‘decision’… but if they WERE… then by all rights… this case SHOULD be returning to the lower court to PROCEED TO TRIAL.
That sounds like it could be good news for Yarnell residents.
If it goes to trial
It will be good news for more than yarnell
Reply to Diane lomas post on October 23, 2016 at 3:35 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> That sounds like it could be good news for Yarnell residents.
Perhaps.
It could still be a LOOONG, involved process of actually bringing the 135+ consolidated lawsuits to TRIAL.
Arizona Forestry will still be fighting TOOTH AND NAIL to try and make sure these civil lawsuits never see the inside of a courtroom.
Personally… I believe that Arizona Forestry would rather just outright SETTLE all 135 lawsuits ( for some reasonable sum of money… not what plaintiffs asked… but maybe close enough for them to take the offer(s) )… rather than EVER let this thing proceed to TRIAL.
Because that’s when WITNESSES would be called… and that’s when people have to actually put their hand on a book and SWEAR ( under penalty of perjury if they do not ) to “Tell the TRUTH… the WHOLE TRUTH… and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH”.
You cannot take the ‘Fifth Amendment’ just to protect someone else.
You can ONLY invoke the ‘Fifth Amendment’ on your OWN behalf… and to protect YOURSELF from ‘self-incrimination’.
When witnesses are finally called to the stand… they will HAVE to ( finally ) answer questions they don’t WANT to answer… and if they LIE ( this time )… they can go to JAIL.
So Arizona Forestry will still do everything in its power to prevent these CIVIL lawsuits from EVER seeing the inside of a courtroom.
Attorney David Abney has already said that if this ever does get into a courtroom… he is going to take ALL KINDS of ‘depositions’ and call pretty much anyone who ever had anything to do with the Yarnell Hill Fire to the ‘witness stand’.
I hope that happens.
Whether they actually WIN or LOSE the case itself… just HAVING THE TRIAL still represents the BEST CHANCE ( win or lose ) to simply FIND OUT what REALLY HAPPENED that entire weekend.
Because many Yarnell residents are no longer around to testify due to attrition from age and health related issues due to the fire how is their testimony being ensured and protected?
OK…you are new here and I appreciate your participation so I am going to take a minute to tell you what I have been saying for three years now.
This country laws are based on English law. A central pillar of English law is that the Crown can do no wrong. It is called Sovereign Immunity. Now…WTKTT (God bless his flux capacitor) will tell you that Sovereign Immunity is not codified by Arizona State Law but it doesn’t matter.
Those land owner cases are NEVER going to trial, those land owners are NEVER going to win, they have NEVER had a chance since day one and their attorneys know that. Their case is about and has always been about extorting money from the State of Arizona with what is called a NUISANCE lawsuit in the hope of squeezing a little money out of the state to go away just like the families did with their worthless lawsuits that never had a snowballs chance in hell in the first place either. BUT…they had some public goodwill at some point and so there was some pressure on the state to throw them some bones.
The state took the money that was paid to the families that sued (the squeaky wheels) from the pockets of the families who didn’t sue, so the state never even paid any more money than they were going to in the first place. It was all smoke and mirrors and a complete crock of shit, especially for the families who got robbed by the greedy and selfish who swore all they wanted was the truth and would never settle without the truth blah, blah, blah. And when it came down to the nut cuttin’ and the state said “take it or fuck you, you get nothing”, they took their nuisance money and went away by declaring Victory in the face of overwhelming defeat..
Now…let me tell you why no one except for WTKTT should want the land owners case to proceed much less win. IF that ever happens…they will have to close up every city, county, and state government in the country and turn everything back over to the Native Americans who owned it in the first place because this country will be ungovernable. There won’t be any schools, any libraries, any police force, any fireman, any teachers…any anything.
YOU can’t afford it. And even if YOU could, YOU would not stand for it. If the government had to pay up for every fuckin’ disaster they cause because they are fuckin’ idiots…there would NO end to the liability and the exposure the taxpayers would have.
Just for starters…every time a wildfire escapes control efforts ANYWHERE and burns any private property…those people would claim the same damages for the same reason. Just think about the catastrophic fires California for example is experiencing right…if the state of California had to pay for every house and every other think that gets damaged in every wildfire that gets away from CDF didn’t fight it according to the standards of everyone else…the FIRST thing that would happen is the State of California would eliminate the entire agency called CDF (it is called something else now but you get my drift).
Because IF they go to fight a fire…and thereby accept a duty, responsibility and obligation to pay for everything that could possibly go wrong because they went to fight it and took on that duty, responsibility and obligation…do you think they are going to go fight anymore fires? And then NOBODY is safe and EVERYBODY loses instead of just the fuckin’ end of the road losers who lost everything in Yarnell…get it?
Way back when…I told the story of how my younger brother died a few years ago from cancer, but…his favorite saying was…”people don’t need my money…they need my advice”. His second most favorite saying was…”take care of business.” And by that he meant…everybody should take care of business because he did…and he didn’t want to pay for all of the fuck ups in life who make poor decisions and have bad judgement and come to a series of cross roads in their lives and continually go down the wrong fucking path because it looks the easiest or the most fun.
My brother was a BAGGAGE HANDLER (for Alaska Airlines) and when he died at age 50 he had already retired from Alaska Airlines and had begun a new career with the Alaska Marine Highways as an Able Bodied Seaman. He was like me…he never met an hour of overtime he would not work, or a job he would not do. And when he died, his INSURED condo was paid for, he paid cash for his truck…he paid cash for EVERYTHING. His only vices were traveling all over the world and spoiling my kids. But he worked double time to do it…always. And he had a very large 401K…I know because he left it to me. He left his INSURED condo to our sister.
I have always lived in a city, in a neighborhood, in a row of houses. I would like to have a little slice of heaven on a bun and be able to see the stairs at night, listen to the coyote howl, and the wind rustle throw the trees, but I can’t afford it…and neither can most of them. Except for those assholes Mr. and Mrs. Helms…they didn’t lose a fuckin’ thing in that fire but they are suing for millions because they are opportunistic assholes and cheats, that list of losers is full of opportunistic assholes and cheats…and just some people who have really fucked up their lives with a lifetime of poor choices.
I now rent but we have owed many houses because I transferred around a lot chasing the grade (promotions), which I got…in spades. I NEVER would own a house I could not afford to insure, or live in a place where they did not offer insurance because the threat of wildfire is too great, because I could NOT stand the loss if I lost it all to wildfire. I live were there are fire hydrants, fire stations just down the road, neighborhood covenants so nobody can have overgrown fire hazards all around their house and the city has code inspectors that get on your ass if the association doesn’t. I also can’t have pigs, and chickens, and fuckin’ goats in my yard.
Now…I UNDERSTAND that there are people who do not want to live like I do…I understand they want to live at the end of the road, which is an Alaska term because I am proud of the fact that I was born in the Territory of Alaska, because that state has a long history (including my parents back in the day) who don’t want to live like the masses, they want independence, they want to have fuckin’ overgrown yards with goats in them…and most importantly…they want to own houses they can’t afford to insure or can’t buy insurance for because no insurance company will assume that level of liability…it TOO FUCKIN’ HIGH! If I owned one of those houses, I would sell it and move to town and rent a house or an apartment or whatever I could afford…maybe public housing…because I COULDN’T”T AFFORD TO LOSE EVERYTHING to a wildfire.
Now…I really feel sorry for all of those poor people who lost everything in the Yarnell Hill Fire…but I don’t want to reimburse them for their BAD CHOICES and POOR LIFE DECISIONS!
DO YOU? If you do, get out your checkbook because they will be more than happy to take your money.
I apologize if I appear to be ranting at you because I am not. I am infamous on this blog for my rants but I haven’t had one since you have been here, so don’t take it personal.
Got lost there on the “end of the roaders” analogy, if you are not familiar with that term. In Alaska it refers to people who can’t or don’t want to live like everybody else so they keep driving until they get to the end of the road. And then they stop and build a hootch to live in…or whatever. That used to be real common back when you could still homestead up there. And is still common today.
Which is why the Canadian border guards have always made people moving up pass a means test before they let you into Canada. They learned a long time ago they don’t want to have to assume all of the liability that comes with letting “end of the roaders” into Canada if they can’t prove they have enough assets to make it across and OUT of Canada.
They are frequently (not all by any means, but many are) criminals (don’t shoot the messenger, I spend 25 years dealing with end of the roaders (squatters, etc. on YOUR public land in half a dozen western states and almost all of them have criminal histories when you run them…it’s just the way it is), child molesters (who can’t rent where they do background checks) odd balls, misfits, losers (by choice), lazy people (who don’t want a job so they live where there aren’t any) welfare frauds and yes…some good people who just don’t have any common sense.
And yes, there were a bunch of retirees living in Yarnell and places like Yarnell who didn’t have much money, but once again…if you can’t afford to INSURE it, you can’t afford to OWN. And if you do and you lose it…don’t expect me to pay for it.
Whoops…got lost on my best analogy that makes it real simple to understand. What happens when kids get hurt on playground equipment or at recess and their parents successfully sue? That’s right…no more playground equipment or recess…same principle.
And FYI…I touched on this up above, but I want to hit it a little harder. I harped on this way back when (about 3 years ago and just in case you don’t know this, I am always happy to brag about my work history because I am a legend in my own mind. I was a hotshot for ten years, seven of those years as the crew boss of two different crews, I was the youngest hot shot crew boss in history, I started a hotshot new crew from scratch, I was an Assistant District Fire Management Officer and a Forest Dispatcher, who runs fire operations, and the Coordinator of an Inter-agency Fire Operations Center), EVERY real wildfire is managed by CHAOS for the first 36 to 48 hours. The Yarnell Hill Fire was on the extreme end with WF who were in over their heads because that fire was a BITCH (non-gender specific) and it exceeded everyone’s expectations, but it was not unique. Many wildfires are just like that one. Without getting down into the weeds here and re-litigating 3 years worth of arguments…the Arizona State Forestry didn’t do anything wrong on that fire or at least nothing wrong that is not done on every BITCH of a fire. What made that fire unique…is there was one really stupid, arrogant, unqualified, deeply flawed habitual fuck up by the name of Eric Marsh in charge of the GMIHC and he had a number two that knew he worked for a petty, insecure, vindictive asshole and he needed to keep the job he had because his wife was a stay at home mom and his kids needed to keep their health insurance and his job experience up until that point as a Marine and a WF qualified him for a job where he would have to ask “do you want fries with that” outside of the military or the WF industrial complexes.
I have been one of the first and biggest critics of Arizona State Forestry on this blog and in JD interviews from the very beginning, but what happened on the YFF was NOT Arizona State Forestry’s fault, it was the fault of Karen Fann and all of the taxpayers of Arizona who have NEVER funded the Arizona State Forestry at the levels they need to be funded. They have always fought fire on the cheap…pinching pennies, cutting corners, they always have and they always will because that is what eh politicians and the tax payers of Arizona fund and demand that they do.
The other reason the YHF was a little unique, but not unprecedented, eve in Arizona is because is because the town of Yarnell got in the way of it. And the town was full of uninsured property and overgrown yards and a bunch of people who were not “fire wise” who had a bunch of property that was indefensible and NO ONE should have ever been put in a position were anybody expected them to risk their lives to save that shit hole they call Yarnell. If I would have been in charge. I would have back fired that fuckin’ town from Highway 89 and called it good. Fuck them.
And guess what? What survived in that shit hole they call Yarnell is still indefensible because the assholes who live there still aren’t cutting back their overgrown yards because they like them that way…and having fuckin’ pigs in their yards. AND Arizona State Forestry is STILL FIGHTING FIRE JUST LIKE THEY DID ON THE YARNELL HILL FIRE AND JUST LIKE THEY ALWAYS HAVE AND JUST LIKE THEY ALWAYS WILL!
If anybody has a BITCH…take it up with Senator Karen Fann and before her, that fucking asshole of all assholes “Show Me Your Papers” Gestapo Jack Booted Thug Mother Fucker Senator Steve Pierce!
OK…I;m going to go get a massage, please carry on among yourselves.
OK…that was a quickie massage, but I feel a little better. Thank you for asking.
Oh…and one more thing, just in case you missed, I was an original Jack Booted Thug. That is why I know that former Senator Steve “Show Me Your Papers” Pierce Gestapo Asshole Jack Booted Thug Wannabe Motherfucker gives real Jack Booted Thugs a bad name.
http://oregondunes.com/AboutContact.html
And I can’t wait until I see the King of Assholes Sheriff Joe Arpaio in pink handcuffs and living in tent city, except he is up on federal charges and they are much more professional that that asshole tyrant who had been running a criminal enterprise for decades now.
Hey…news flash Arizonaistan, you don;t get all of your top commanders locked up for being criminals while remaining clean yourself. I never even admit to anyone I ever lived in Arizona now, I just claim New Mexico. And if you have to claim New Mexico as your home state, that is only slightly better than claiming Mississippi.
Gary,
I thought that part of the value of taking the Yarnell case to court was to obtain testimony from principal players that what occurred on the fire that we don’t know about —–such as testimony from Dan Sullivan and others who weren’t interviewed by the investigators.
Nobody wants the truth from the Yarnell Hill Fire to be told except for us…and we don’t count. And I mean NOBODY.
Although I will tell you a funny story that happened to me today…and by funny I don’t mean haha funny.
I don’t know if you know how LinkedIn works or not, but when you sign up for LinkedIn you must agree to have your computer scanned all of the time looking for people that you might want to link with.
They are always asking me if I want to link with so and so and most of those so and so’s would rather see me dead than link with me so I rarely respond..
Well…anyway, I got one this morning asking me if I want to link with Grant McKee.
I guess LinkedIn hasn’t heard about what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Reply to Gary Olson post on October 24, 2016 at 8:31 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> This country laws are based on English law. A central pillar
>> of English law is that the Crown can do no wrong. It is called
>> Sovereign Immunity. Now…WTKTT (God bless his flux capacitor)
>> will tell you that Sovereign Immunity is not codified by Arizona
>> State Law but it doesn’t matter.
Well… it seems to matter to the Arizona Court of Appeal Judges.
Listen to the video of the ‘oral arguments’ and pay close attention to the ‘questions’ that the Appellate Judges were ‘asking’ the two attorneys.
It is clear the BOTH of those Judges are ‘perfectly aware’ that the late, great state of Arizona ( who issues them their paychecks ) have NOT ‘codified’ any kind of ‘sovereign immunity’ into the Arizona Constitution… like other states have.
Their QUESTIONS ( especially to Arizona Attorney General Office lawyer Brock Heathcotte ) very much imply that they believe there IS a point where the STATE has “duty” and “responsibility”… and YES… even “liability”.
That’s why this is going to be a HISTORIC legal decision… one way or the other.
Judge Swann sort of nailed the issue when he said ( to Arizona Attorney General Office lawyer Brock Heathcotte )… that he has NEVER HEARD of any ‘case law’… ANYWHERE… that requires BOTH a ‘public policy’ AND a ‘special relationship’ in order for the citizens of a STATE to EXPECT certain services to be rendered in a non-negligent way.
But that is, in fact, the LEGAL argument ‘basket’… that Arizona Forestry is putting all their ‘Easter Eggs’ in to try and get out from under any liability for all the fucks-ups they were directly responsible for regarding the 2013 ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.
Whichever way this ‘legal decision’ goes… it’s going to make HISTORY and set ‘precedent’ for other States and other jurisdictions.
And you can tell these ‘Appellate Judges’ KNOW that.
This might be one of those ‘career decisions’ for them… and something they will be ‘known for’ out there in ‘legal land’… so that’s why they are really taking their time and haven’t issued their ‘decision’ yet.
SIDENOTE: I actually believe there will BE no ‘decision’ announced until AFTER they get this PUBLIC PARK thing dedicated. I think the ‘Governor’ himself might have put a ‘bug’ in the Court’s ear saying “It won’t be good if we are dedicating the PUBLIC Park… knowing that there really is going to be a TRIAL and everyone who has always been lying about what happened ( either directly or by omission ) is going to have to finally tell the TRUTH”.
Well HAL 9000l…I guess you haven’t been paying close attention to how they do things in Ariizonaistan. If they have to, the Arizona State Legislature will pass a law giving them Sovereign Immunity and make it retroactive.
That actually happened to me one time (I know everybody is tired of hearing that from me, but I lived a long and full life). Me and a few thousand other federal agents.
The federal government was working “field” agents like dogs on unpaid overtime by classifying us as “exempt” employees rather than “non=exempt” employees so they could claim they weren’t subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act (you know, like you have heard about Walmart and others doing by “asking” employees if they “want” to come in on their days off and “volunteer their time for free” because the Asshole Walden family doesn’t have enough fucking money). Not supervisors or managers…field agents. The worst ones were the DEA who had agents up on wires 24/7 and paid them a base 8 but they were far from being alone.
Me and several thousand agents sued the federal government in a class action suit which I have told you many times can’t be done…except in very rare cases and after many years we won.
For the period of years covered by the lawsuit the federal government owed me about $140,000 in back pay. It would have been a lot more but there was a six (6) year statute of limitations on those types of civil cases.
Did I get the $140,000 minus taxes and attorneys fees after we won? No…the United States Congress passed a law limiting the statute of limitations to two (2) years rather than six (6) and made the law RETROACTIVE. And that was the U.S. Congress, just imagine what Arizonaistan is capable of.
So I got paid about $20,000 minus taxes and attorneys fees because they covered the first two (2) when I and I assume most other agents were at much lower grades making a lot less money than the last four (4) years.
I learned a long time ago that life isn’t fair.
What issues do you have with the Helms?
Is this why it is so difficult to find information on the Yarnell Fire and helms ranch influence in everything? Was the helms ranch protected due to information that citizens are not privy to and if so why? It appears to me that granite mountain was moving to protect that ranch not so much the citizens of Yarnell—if that is true WhY?
What Gary says is true–the feds make an offer and if you do not take it, ten years later and at the mercy of 150 federal lawyers you will be told by the judge that the feds win or if not they will continue the case another ten.
Eminent domain laws allow the feds to come in with dozers, put you out with a batallion of police and doze your belonging into a pile. I actually witnessed this when I was a Senior in high school. That overpass seven miles west of Lordsburg, NM on I 10 was our home. The feds decided that was a good place to put an overpass to nowhere and as a result my Dad was offered 2500 for his belongings, Rock Shop, Trading post, home and he refused–the water well they covered at 250 ft cost more than that. They said take it or leave it and early the next morning the sheriff, his deputy awoke us and we were allowed to watch two D-9 dozers go through everything and push it up into one big pile of splintered wood. Dad pitched a tent, we lived there in the cold winds of February and he attempted in court to get a fair price of $40,000. He had spent most of $100,000 building there from his sale of his Las Cruces Gas Station property and business. Judge Payne said you get nothing now because you refused the offer, and one lawyer Forest Sanders wanted 40 grand to take the case and said you have little chance to win since it would likely be appealed to the highest courts and more money would be needed to fight it. So Dad died a bitter man–however it did get the overpass in and it still goes to nowhere but is a good off ramp to visit that chaparral laden desert. I think the old mine holes might still be there and below that rock across the pass on the north side were some ancient Indian artifacts found–tiny turquoise beads and a few of the most perfect arrowheads I have ever seen.
I kind of smile at all this because we talk of heroes. My Dad enlisted at the young age of 15 by lying about his age and was a machine gunner in WW1. He decribed laying in the mud in Alsace Lorraine and told me how Germans fell in the cross fire the Americans laid out on them. He told me that it rained the whole time he was there and his board had to be constantly guarded since other soldiers would grab it to keep from sleeping directly in the mud. He was mustard gassed, off three days for that and then back on the front. He said there was not any big celebration on coming back and he did not expect one since they had gone and done what they felt an honor to do–protect this country and its freedoms.
When WW11 came along he again attempted to enlist despite four kids and his age now 45yr. The enlistment board classified him 4-F and told him they would call him up if they needed him.
Was he a hero–or just an American ready to go to war to protect the borders and freedoms of this country. I would think so, since I for one do not want to live under dictatorship, or Arab type rule where women are treated as objects and some Imam lords it over the common man. Nor do I want to be a commie. But I am all happy for those that like that way of life –go for it I say if you like it but keep America American and free under the constitution and its Bill of Rights to the citizen. Nothing needs changing and nothing is Hill Billy about keeping those freedoms intact.
The first and second amendments are glue to the works of freedom.
We all need a shower once a week even if we don’t need it. Gary Olsen is always on even if he is not many times. I did take Joy to an elite eat out, the Taco Bell of Wickenburg and she ordered a few extra burritos to freeze up in my new Gold Seal Ice box. Joy says that thing cost her a few thousand, but then her mom’s actually cost 17 grand back in Jersey. A Post Master retired after 30 years and they do deserve a nice gold plated one.
Joy is a very private person, still that way but after the truth and will not delineate from it. This is her first time on an interactive blog and never before done that. What we as hikers have done is live the pioneer life in caves and desert ways of survival and also as Indians did live in the pines to see how people that settled this land had to endure. I did not think Joy could do that, but she did and still here healthy –well not healthy but still standing. Ok that life was my life as a youngster and throughout life mostly so this way all different to cookie cutter life was what was normal for me. See going to school in the morning and smelling like smoke so kids thought the school was on fire was because my mom had made me breakfast off a campfire. My brogan shoes worn out and soled by myself with old tire treads like a wet back Mexican were because that was all we had in those days. My respect to the Mexicans because they were better at making soles out of discarded tire rubber than I was, but we made do with what we had and never felt different–but some did since their polished shoes and ways were quite different. Hey, lets be civil in a bad world.
Unlike Gary, I think both candidates are liars. And I think the lady the worse liar. I think that eventually as the CIA people believe the Arabs of the Arab religion will do their damage to a degree that will make the most recent ones look like baby shit., After all the CIA people are a lot smarter along those lines with a pipe line of knowledge that we only have a hint of what they have. Some English bloke knew that every time you found one doing what the ones did killing 14, you wrap their bodies in pig hide and bury them that way. It would slow the hidden killers down considerably knowing that to do so would condemn them to hell forever.,
Maybe the English are smarter than an Irish bloke wants to give credit. Well in truth, there are some smart ones among all races, creeds and even among idiots–Yanell is proof.
Uranium mining is dangerous indeed–you can not avoid becoming radioactive and reactive as well. Joy showed me pictures on my death bed–not pretty even in person and on the death bed horrible film. But there is much to be learned from being dead and coming alive. Now that I am off life support and out of hospice (my own design there and thanks to a son with RN credentials) I can barely speak, but now the word has no restraint in truth– the values that belong to all, white, black, brown, purple or alien. The world belongs to the true values and yes I am one of the many veterans whom did not die in Viet Nam, but every man, myself included were drafted into a war believing we would defend this country to death if necessary. My father did, and we followed.
We erred in many aspects as a uranium miner thinking he was also providing the things that would also help protect and prosper the country. Cigarette adds and propaganda will have the young ones believing shit beyond shit–I have a bat hide in Psychology and there is a specialty in Psychology as to how to sell people in Corporate shit on products. You can learn how to convince the public how to buy your product, bullshit and whatever and get a bat hide (degree or sheep skin) in it. The world is based on skimming the public and how t0 do it and the Universities are able to cash in in it as well.
But tonight the subject is Joy. Joy, like my father is a rare individual that you find once in two thousand moons–well maybe a thousand. There are I want to say, a very few individuals with a gift such as hers. I recognized it in only one of my sons—now deceases, an underwater welder, then a straight A student in Chemical Engineering but at the same time able to approach people and not only know their names, what they do, even their phone numbers and all about them. It is kind of a Jesus trait–someone that reads people and most love it but a few run from it. The only reason you could hide from her is like the reason that the Corporations want to hide their secret chemicals under trade secrets–they have plenty to hide that they do not want the general public to know. You cant hide from a Jesus or one of my Irish Gods or the Leprechaun Best to confess even if to an Irish Priest of the Cross of Mary., Hey, I have done it before–even in Mexico where Pancho Villa”s army had put plenty of bullet marks in the wall–Viejo Casas Grandes, Mexico–I accidentally killed a beef on the way out of Mexico after that wedding.
But this world has lost some good young men and 100+ mostly elderly individuals to the ignorance that prevails on this planet. Now that is minuscule to killing 100,000 at Hiroshima or Nagasaki but here in America we value every life of every citizen–idiot, genius or the average bloke like Sonny.
This is why I want to see that Joy gets the information she desires and with that information can understand what errors might be happening that causes the useless deaths of wild land fire fighters. Now she tells me she can not share this information with others since the law restricts her revelations, but after she reads all this she can give her honest opinions–and maybe the Fire Gods are fearful of these revelations. Is this the Wizard of Oz story and we find out that these blokes are fooling us with rhetoric? I do think so. But 19 is not the count and yet more beyond 100 added to the count–a real horror story unrecognized, but real.
Edgar Allen Poe is indeed turning over in his grave–reality is even more horrific than his own stories. Yarnell, how did you get your name attached to the horror of the century?
No movie can portray the horror of Yarnell –19 needless deaths of young souls, Even the devil himself is smiling that it is so portrayed in a movie–yet he even is more smiling upon the needless death of 100+ more elderly– What a son of a bitch he is. and I can not wait till the Irish Gods kick his ass.
I am sitting here with a good Guinness stout in my hand reminiscing how horrific a story– with Joy being a witness to something that was absolutely preventable, and with any person of intelligence in control would never have occurred. So many times I have actually shed tears over these deaths, maybe because I feel the death of my own son at 29==the same age Zack Ashoor died after visiting the fence. I wonder if Amanda will go after him post mortem for directly going to the fence. He like thousands of others believed that he had the right to go there to respect those men’s efforts despite Amanda’s husbands error in risking his crew’s lives. I agree with the deceased Zack, not Amanda on that issue. Her husband errefd and that fact she must live with despite her efforts and many other people’s efforts to make Eric out as a hero. Yes he obeyed orders from headquarters, but we are not in combat WW1 or 11 , Korean or Viet Nam–We are in wild land fire fighting not against Nazis or bad ass Isis operatives. You do not kill your troupes in wild land fire fighting because you want to prove yourself to the upper echelon. Here, to my opiniion, as with many other and even respected wild land fire fighting bosses, Marsh was willing to risk his men to prove his worth–not much when you kill that many under your command.
Gary Olsen says it right–He would hug Eric–but he als0 says Eric fucked up royally. When royalty fucks up they sometimes get their head chopped off by the not so royalty. Instead what are we getting? Statues in white to adorne the Weavers:? I wonder of whom? Jesus, the Irish God Dana, or some other? Maybe it is Donut, God forbid. But you know I have good binoculars, a lot of extra time on my hand and all I know is there is a spot of white up on the two track. Maybe I ought to take my binoculars out and see whose statue it is. Is it the one that ordered the men to their deaths? Maybe it is one of the elderly that died after the drops of retardant. If I take the time to look, I will inform you, but I hope to the Irish Gods that it is one of the men that were fooled into believing that Steed and Marsh were the Greek Gods of fire fighting that would take them to their ultimate demise.
Once in a while let us cut right to the truth. I see sometimes you fellows in wild land fire fighting get technical, especially RTS. That indeed is good and the thing said like knowing simple things like having a lookout, an escape route, communications, and safety zone make sense. But being Sonny Gilligan along with stubborn Joy Collura (at that time) were at the very spot those men went down, I would ask were you there? The answer was simple and you did not leave Joy like I did then return 40 minutes later because I thought she might still be there and not have descended down toward a killer wildfire so that I might convince her that it was an act of defiance to life. No one was there to witness the blow up but we were, yet only cursing and positive action convinced J0y of the danger and imminent death situation she was in if she dropped down instead of retreating to the west side of the Weavers. See, who convinced the well seasoned fire fighters to drop down even after the wild land fire changed direction?
This of course, is no mystery–Eric Marsh is head of this crew, but then who needed to have his crew and egged him on? Eric killed his crew, but who did order Eric to drop his men off in that deadly situation.. Eric is dead so he can not speak, wishes he disobeyed the strict orders and did not, but then we have denials and tales that there was a 30 minute total black out of communications. So Eric takes total blame for killing the men., I personally do not believe the fairy tale. But they Greek Gods of fire fighting would have me believe this. They indeed are a scary bunch, killers for sure. I do tread lightly.
Being truthful in this is what matters. Seventeen dead young fellows strictly following orders makes each one a hero–devoid of judgement and mind controlled, but still in the hero category. But common sense will tell us all that those that committed these young men to their dreadful fate and deaths were not even close to being heroes–and it goes up the line. May the Irish Gods take care and demode every individual involved that caused the deaths of these young men. And anyone involved in the deaths of 100 and more of the elderly and health compromised people, may the Irish Gods give them the many curses and Karma do them right for putting greed and self aggrandizement before the lives of men. I do not even have to speak this because it is already happening. Those that have already spoken out have lost in the early, but Karma repays the in many fold down the line. For instance, Donut gains early, so do those bosses that have hidden the real truth, but Karma smiles at their lies and subterfuge. Do not underestimate the disaster of hiding the truth when it concerns so many deaths.
Charlie,
I have enjoyed reading your thoughts this morning. Thank you for your insights–if not for you and joy who were not only witness to the fire but then have continued to live through and document the aftermath we would have far less of the truth of what happened-your perspective is invaluable!
It does appear that the FOIA for the Yarnell Fire dept is an essential step at getting to the truth.
P.s. The story of the elderly woman whose life belongings and accomplishments burned in the fire resulting in her moving away really touched me and personalized the loss of this community.
Thanks Diane, though 90% of the credit goes to Joy A. Collura. She has been relentless in going after the truth of this fire. I could have never come even close to how she is able to uncover things, meet people, and store in her memory bank all she is able to do. Joy and I have pioneered Arizona for a number of years now, lived in caves, deserts, roamed about the land and she accomplished much of what she wanted to do. Her name was Desert Walker when I met her–2007 the doctors had made some bad operation mistakes on her and their prognosis was to get her stuff ready since they predicted she had only months to live.
So live she has. Her efforts have been to help others, and especially those in the older years. For us she came up with the moniker “The Old Married Couple”. She is married, I am old.
The stories of my earlier life of living the deserts, prospecting with my father and living the free live like the early day pioneer intrigued her. When my fiance died at 54 from a deadly form of cancer I had run an ad for a lady that could spit snuff between her teeth and hit a coack roach at ten yards (my grandma could actually do that), use an outdoor privy, take cold showers or wait until I heated water in a five gallon bucket for a bath, and so on, she answered the call.
Perhaps there was some mystique about my early life, when cow boys were cowboys and old salty miners like my Dad were fellows that you found quiet but knew they were all business–Joy wanted to know much about this way of life. Good lord, when we met and I drove into her cookie cutter neighborhood in an old beat up van so her neighbors asked if they should call the police, she was so polished up I almost turned around. But then when she took an outdoor cold shower while it was cold and snowing I though this gal must be part Eskimo. Appearances and book covers can be quite fooling.
I have learned much from her–and she has exposed many bad doings in this incident. There are many behind her efforts, including some of the best wild land death investigators, wild land retired fire bosses, concerned tax payers and people that themselves are working toward the common goal of making right and exposing the truth that has been so diligently hidden from the public eye.
I have read the FOIA’s that are in my name. So much real truth that can not be said since personal FOIA’s have so many legal restrictions to reveal what they say–a way to keep the truth hidden.
I have been on the retardant thing for a while. We hope to get a list of all affected by this and from personal contacts and information, I know there are many, including Joy and myself. This stuff not only kills fish but obviously human from looking at Yarnell deaths and sickness-especially respiratory related problems in the middle age and elderly. Joy has some of the names listed, I think above 30 but the others we know will also have to be added and also those now in wheel chairs and with bad respiratory problems.
Just tonight I was talking to another, Stephanie, and she says she is using inhalants now–see she did not connect this to the retardant drop, but it has happened to her since the drops. People do not know, because they are mostly unaware that much of the town has now gotten these problems out of heavenly orange retardant drops.
I got this information because someone said my dogs got out last night and two of them scared them so they called county on me. So I went around to neighbors asking who was being bothered by my dogs. Anyhow since I got called on for my chickens running loose I want to find out if this is just harassment since my dogs are inside and I the next door neighbor said she would have known since before when I had no fence they would come there. Well Joy says an FOIA will tell who is bothered so I can –if it is the same people touring the town and writing down petty infractions that caused enormous fines to elderly on social security (1400 fine to one for a dog loose), then maybe some of us can file harassment charges against that person. After all two chickens on the loose wont hurt a soul, and those we have are pets–red lets you pick her up anytime and pet her and whitey is as tame, both lay more eggs than I can eat.
Said truly, Joy could write a book from what I know–the truth would make some people squirm, maybe even get them prosecuted.
Sonny,
Have you and joy had the opportunity to testify to all that you were witness to regarding the Yarnell Fire?
We did talk to ADOSH and hiked them the route of the GMHS even to the death site. They took testimony. Bruce and Bret also worked and investigation for some months and their ADOSH findings wound up fining the FS the maximum possible fine. The State investigators did a phone talk with us as well. We had talked to Morgan Lowe of TV and he did a TV thing, so did others, and many other media interviews. Everyone involved in either the Yarnell or the Tenderfoot fire wants the HERO label Any information that taints that image is redacted. I think Joy and I are on the redaction page.
Lately though some very influential people unknown to the local inbred group of cronies are actually working hard to expose the reasons the men actually died and they do not think it was a God thing (natuaral causes, nor accidental).
If you give it some thought, there is much involved in the Yarnell death incident and now if all evidence is out, even how people are fooled into believing the retardant dumps are a good thing and inert to human life. Joy and I are small though considering some of the people that are investigating these incidents, specifically the Yarnell and Tenderfoot fires but also all wild land fires and how they are managed and mismanaged. For instance I was talking to Buford, our local gunsmith, and he said Sonny, look at the last seven or so lightening strikes and you will see they are not taken care of immediately–there is money to be made in these things. It was obvious here at Yarnell that the local fire departments–3 in fact near enough to get to the strike fell down and did not respond even though they knew we were in the worse possible extreme fire hazard conditions. All experienced wild land fire fighters I have talked to and we have hiked to the area, even to the point of origin have stated that the fire could have been stopped immediately. I can say duh to that since I have put out lightening strikes in a worse situation and more distant and difficult to access than that lightening strike was. The new FS attitude is let it burn if it is a lightening stirke or natural.
Maybe even now if one is set. A five grand reward was offered to get whoever started the Tenderfoot fire–they believe it was man caused. But the fire on the east side of Yarnell, a burn out or burn back was man caused and caused a hellacious amount of havoc. Worse was now they had to dump hundreds of thousand gallons of retardant right nest to homes there and only a few hundred yards from downtown Yarnell. As long as firemen, even if they do not know what they are doing start fires it is ok. I do not see mixing city firemen into wild land fires, but they ought to be able to run up on a twenty or thirty minute trek and put out a fire. But to let them run rampant setting back fires and they know little about wild land fire fighting, whew–how bad it gets is to look at the Tenderfoot errors.
I am not privy as to whether Marsh’s best friend when Marsh was alive came in after the city fire department had lit those fires that he was happy. I have heard that he was not and though they had done the wrong thing but then that is heresay. We need to interview him to get the truth. No media has at this time–only the local fire department that set the fire has been interviewed as far as i know. But in the crony system you notice they try to cover each others back.
I still have not looked at that statue–Even if it is Jesus I would say it defiles the Weavers. Leave the land natural–who wants to look at big white statues of dead people put there because some one believed they deserved more reverence than any other wild land fire fighter that died in action. These fellows were given a bad hand by their bosses–even Marsh and Steed who could have told their upper eschelon to get fucked–we will not risk our men’s lives for “The Ranch”. But they did not–are their statues to be there? If my son had been in that crew, I would likely want theirs put in the hall of infamy.
So the ranch was the reason the firefighters were moving toward Yarnell? It was prioritized over the town of Yarnell? If so why? What was so important about the helms ranch?
Yes the ranch was the reason. See Willis and his testimony. He trained these men, sanctioned everything they did and even got them into the Christian mode at times. Yes he was their God even more than Steed. Marsh I think was in between somewhere and Amanda served lots of brownies keeping him in good straits. This is all documented so nothing new here. But if you listen to Willis and his report you know that he knows everything. In fact you will see that he has bigger detractors coming up behind whispering in his ear–stuff to be careful of or avoid? But when he says they were protecting that ranch, you can know that Christian fellow would not put out something he was not sure of.
OK, I got county on my ass for my dogs, this is what you get when you want the truth. It is ok, I will deal with it, take care of business, do the FOIA–but I am one to live and let live. You know with five heart attacks and bad repiratory problems–I got plenty of inhalers now as well, that I do not need the extra harassment. Someone thinks if they can harass me like that they have the 90 year old down the street that I might get another attack and be sent off to Hospice? Am i acting paranoid? Well here now, the leprechaun is on my side and those Irish Gods are smiling down upon me. Believe me the one trying to cause trouble my direction will feel what I have felt when I was down begging to die from an active heart attack. They are that painful–so if I have a pain pill i will try to get it to anyone in that condition. Really a fact in life–the needless hurt dealt out is by law coming back to those, but ten fold.
Some do not believe in Karma. But then I know it is there. Joy is an example–despite her condition she has strives to help others. Example–Oh turn around that guy is ragged and hitchhiking he might need water and food or those people are broke down, turn around see if we can help them. Or lets help that poor lady down the street or that man that cant clean his yard. For this, Karma and the Irish Gods have extended her live that was to end in 2007 to now 2016. Well for her keeping adamantly at finding the truth of the 19 deaths as well.
Here is a truth I will share. Christmas, 2014, Joy says we need to climb that mountain and build a fire up above the two track to honor the men and spend the night there. I say hell no, it is cold, windy and worse even when you get up top the Weavers. Joy in her many convincing arguments has me fitted up with backpack and sleeping bags and we do head up. Somewhere during that night and with the large bonfire we had going to keep warm, she says there is a 19 floating over your shoulder. Well I cant see it so I say well take a photo before it disappears. I think she used her cell phone and she says it is fading. But she got it and that photo is in her archives–i bet time stamped and all. I looked at the photo and it is bona fied and there.
“So there are good things and good happenings–and maybe those 19 appreciated that we would in their honor build them a fire on Christmas night and so they accompanied us that special night. I think over my shoulder because I am not good with cell phones or taking photos.
Well I forgot to share that some when shown the photo say they have the hair raised on their arms and a numismatic feeling–this I have witnessed personally with Joy. I do feel anyone going against Joy thinking they will do harm will regret it and I do know Joy would not want it. But the Leprechaun and the Irish Gods are not kind to the unkind. Oh by the way Joy found she is mostly Irish–very litlle Italian and the rest northern European and all American.
Actually…I think Hillary a very, very, very…VERY big liar and a deeply flawed candidate. IF the Republicans were running anyone else other than Donald Trump…Hillary would be going down in flames.
I just happen to think that between the two of them…because it is a binary choice, Hillary will do a better job to restore the middle class because Donald Trump, well…is Donald Trump. He has never done anything for anyone other than Donald Trump in his entire life. .
If I could choose who the candidates are to be the next President of the United States of America right now, I would pick John Kasich and Joe Biden.
I would then listen to them tell us what they are going to do to restore the middle class, and then I would pick between the two of them.
Indeed a sick election and sick people available to run the country. One is greedy wanting to set himself and his heirs up into the royalty class of rulers and the other wanting to dissolve all borders and open us up to Arabville. Neither good, so I can not honestly vote for either and must decline since I can not determine which is the worse choice==they are equals of evil against our republic.
From “The Big Lebowski”
Walter Sobchak:
What the f*** are you talking about? The chinaman is not the issue here, dude. I’m talking about drawing a line in the sand, dude. Across this line, you DO NOT… Also, dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
From the “Investigative Media Blog”
Charlie:
My brogan shoes worn out and soled by myself with old tire treads like a wet back Mexican were because that was all we had in those days. My respect to the Mexicans because they were better at making soles out of discarded tire rubber than I was, but we made do with what we had and never felt different–but some did since their polished shoes and ways were quite different. Hey, lets be civil in a bad world.
Gary:
What the f*** are you talking about? the wetback Mexican is not the issue here, Charlie. I’m talking about drawing a line in the sand, Charlie. Across this line, you DO NOT… Also, Charlie, wetback Mexican is not the preferred nomenclature. undocumented alien, please.
Whoops
From “The Big Lebowski”
The Dude:
Walter, the chinaman who peed on my rug, I can’t go give him a bill, so what the f*** are you talking about?
Walter Sobchak:
What the f*** are you talking about? The chinaman is not the issue here, dude. I’m talking about drawing a line in the sand, dude. Across this line, you DO NOT… Also, dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
From the “Investigative Media Blog”
Charlie:
My brogan shoes worn out and soled by myself with old tire treads like a wet back Mexican were because that was all we had in those days. My respect to the Mexicans because they were better at making soles out of discarded tire rubber than I was, but we made do with what we had and never felt different–but some did since their polished shoes and ways were quite different. Hey, lets be civil in a bad world.
Gary:
What the f*** are you talking about? the wetback Mexican is not the issue here, Charlie. I’m talking about drawing a line in the sand, Charlie. Across this line, you DO NOT… Also, Charlie, wetback Mexican is not the preferred nomenclature. undocumented alien, please.
Listen I married one, but then got her legal later. My kids are tough–they don’t wear brogans and live in cookie cotter land–ie Scottsdale and my son in Las Cruces, RN in a very expensive two story cookie cutter home with all the trimings, and the other son in a Condo belonging to my daughter. All very intelligent beings, lot of it from the Mexican side. I am half black also being that my Mother’s maiden name was Black.
Wet Back is not a derogatory term, the Mexicans say Mohado, meaning wet. I am often called a Gringo–that was when Gen Pershings troops were tracking Pancho Villa, and on that God Forsaken Chihuahuan Desert were singing Green Grows the Grass of Texas. The Mexicans interpreted it to be Gringo’s Ass of Texas. Wet Back simply means an illegal–usually wet from swimming across the Rio Grande, but more likely from the sweat of being overworked and underpaid. An alien is in the class of the Irish Gods that sometimes visit in UFO’s or by holograms–from other planets. Oh I get it, politically correct we say undocumented workers. For instance faggot can be a faggot of wood, but don’t call someone a faggot of wood or queer, since you might offend them. I have queer ways perhaps but I am not a queer. So hopefully any homo won’t take offense–I believe in live and let live. If you like your bungalow, I love my rock cabin, three guineas, three dogs, two chickens and that my neighbor is down the street is at a fair distance. I wish farther, not because he is a bad bloke, he is a fine fellow and good neighbor, but I love space and do not like to hear my neighbor’s farts.
This is a world that ought to be live and let live oriented–where live well and treat your neighbor well. But then we are now seeing too many jack boots on jack asses. Common sense and neighborliness has transposed to mind midgets made so by mind devices and controls of an educational system that contains these lobotomized manikins in boxes–real specimens of the bee hive mentality. Qeene Bees and Drones and worker bees with no clue as to what this life is all about. Religion adds and subtracts and most live in abstraction but with me it is fine. Perhaps the Irish God ordained it that way.
My hands are not soft so why can I smile at my own maladies? Because this world is so afraid to be who they are–a spade is a spade no matter how you dress it up. My Mexican wife used to say you can put a suit on a man but if he was ugly, he is still ugly. Well they have put a nice suit on the Yarnell Debacle but it is still ugly.
I would not change who I am today–that will happen soon enough but then I understand the life of freedom and how those freedoms have diminished to a point we have become a prison society. I do think Sheriff Arapaio should be assigned to his own tent city in the heat of summer with pink underwear and a pink suit with black stripes. He has done enough damage to the human race that karma has been working to pay him back. I believe you can fool and mistreat good people only for so long until things return in many fold. Joy thinks he is a decent guy since her Dad was once one of his deputies. But I think he is a controlling asshole and belongs among those he condemns–eg Hillary, and Trump as well. Trump i do see is another corporate pawn and all else rhetoric. When will this country get another true leader? Do we really need one–they seem to be pawns of corporate america on either side.
Was I in trouble for naming my Dog “Wet Back”? I saved his ass by giving him a shot of tequila and having him lie down quiet while I brought him back from Mexico into the good old USof A? Gary might have pulled out his hog leg and shot me in the gizzard if he had caught me. That was 30 or more years ago, so the limitations on statutes is up. I regretted that act though and Karma got me cause Wetback killed 17 of my chickens when I had four kids and a wife to support. I dispatched Wetback with a 12 gauge blow and he was dead instantly being a direct. Being a good heart, I regretted killing Wetback after and have since. Why even though Coco killed Joy’s three ducks and three more of my Guineas I have only scolded her. She after all was a desert walker as well, and we got her from someone discarding her in the desert much like the Mexican “Wet Back” pooch was discarded in Mexico. Age does mellow us.
If anything I have learned from Joy it is that the cookie cutter–well most, will never understand the way of the mountain man, cowboy and country boy. I looked at that video of myself talking about the natural things of life and I realize it was a given to me on correct procedures to stay alive. But to those fellows and especially their bosses looking at the same scene I was looking at, they had no clue. As Fernanda pointed out, they all opted to die, and then also to die in their cocoons closely packed together. Group think had them screwed–their brain was their leader and he was scary enough (Big Marine Greek Gods are Scary. especially after they have parachuted into bears at night and fought them off with a chain saw-legends of history how do you deny?) to have them all collected into one. It is like when the masses hang someone-a group idea and it infiltrates the minds of the mass where no conscience is found. A book on how the Gods can, do and did kill you? It is needed. But as long as it is intentenional, does that count and even though it was a needless risk, does that matter? We are working on these questions. I think many already have the answers and even a few have spoken.
You can not believe intentional–that is well known unintentional but a stupid act to kill your men–Steed did hesitate, but Marsh was relentless–why, any person of half wit or above will say he was told to take the risk –well no just fucking;protect that ranch. Willis spilled the beans in his interview. There is something holy at the ranch–needs protecting.
Reminds me of when I was making a living–not bad one near CloudCroft, NM where I would come down that 16 mile hill that is considered the most dangerous and killing strip of HWY in NM, with two cords of wood stacked on a Ford 250 4×4, then provide especially the German pilots the US was training at White Sands–I once broke down and got a ride from one of the Physicists working out there at Holloman AFB –he had had a few and in his airplane of a car on the way to Las Cruces, he mentioned among other things that if I knew what was out there near Alamogordo, I would not be delivering wood there. Retardant was not an issue those days, but I never did ask him what the hell was there since I figured it was something he would have told me if he could. I wonder if it is still there like the retardant drop here at Yarnell. Well that one was different–maybe–I thought it might be a nuclear bomb since they had those F-15 is it stealth bombers there and one even fell near where I was married to I think my fifth wife. We saw his parachute about a quarter mile down the road from the house –hanging from a telephone pole–the road was blocked with military fellows with ar-15’s to make a left after and see the crash. I heard the pilot cut himself loose and survived to try out another stealth. Would have been nice to have had Joy along–we would have gotten the straight of it all–she can wrangle the truth out of a liar every time. She did get to meet that x wife –most of my x’s live in NM not Texas. Linda was an English gal brought over by a soldier stationed in England. She got rid of him after finding hidden love letters under his spare tire. These ladies are not dummies. But I got rid of her after Jarvis came over in the night thinking she had blinked her lights for him to come over. He did not see me in the dark background. But he did commit suicide after cause she shunned him even after we divorced. I was logging way past Cloudcroft at the time so would get in late –45 mile run and we were working on footage–contract like a miner. These things I smile at now, but then it was serious business.
Well to get it straight, the wood business came after the divorce–but only because the spotted owl shut down the logging there.
Reply to Diane lomas post on October 19, 2016 at 9:43 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Saw Fernando santos on the weather channel last night describing hotshots-their
>> equipment etc. It appeared to be a Phoenix news reporter who was interviewing her.
Actually… I’m not sure the ‘Sam Champion’ interview with her that I posted a link to below is the same ‘interview’ with Santos that you saw.
Sam Champion works for the ‘Weather Channel’ ( based in Atlanta ) and that ‘link’ I posted was his interview with her as part of their ‘Climate Change’ series.
Again… the ‘Sam Champion’ interview with ‘Santos’ is here on ‘YouTube’…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB4YGawo3mY
And just for reference… below is a TRANSCRIPT of that ‘Sam Champion’ Weather Channel interview with author Fernanda Santos that is currently airing as ‘filler’ on TWC whenever they have some programming time to fill.
This is the interview where she reiterates one of the many ridiculous claims she made in her book.
This one is regarding Brendan McDonough and how he was a lookout on a ‘mountain’ that was 1 to 2 miles away from where GM was working, and that it was Brendan McDonough himself who first ‘warned’ Granite Mountain about the ‘wind change’ just before McDonough left his lookout mound.
Brendan was not on a ‘mountain’. He was on a small mound just north of the old-grader location.
Brendan was NOT 1 to 2 miles away from GM. His lookout mound was only about 844 yards ( just shy of 1/2 mile ) away from where the rest of Granite Mountain was working that day.
As for Brendan being the one to ‘inform’ Granite Mountain about the ‘wind changing’… that doesn’t even match any of Brendan’s actual testimony to either the SAIT or the ADOSH investigators.
Brendan told ADOSH that the entire time he was there on that ‘lookout’ mound he was playing “kind of a game of ‘stump the lookout'” with Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh. According to Brendan… there was nothing all afternoon that Brendan could try and tell either Marsh or Steed about the weather conditions or the fire behavior that didn’t already know… and could already see for themselves.
** ACCORDING TO SANTOS… MARSH HAD A ‘SECOND CELLPHONE’…
Also NOTE in this ‘interview’ that author Fernanda Santos seems to CONFIRM reports that Eric Marsh always had TWO ‘cellphones’ when out on fire line assignments.
Deborah Pfingston ( the mother of Andrew Ashcraft ) was one of the first to claim publicly that (quote) “Eric Marsh always carried TWO cellphones”.
According to Santos… Eric Marsh not only had a regular pocket-size ‘cellphone’… but he had also purchased a ‘satellite phone’ to be used out on assignments when there wasn’t good cell tower coverage.
There WAS ‘excellent’ standard cell-tower coverage in Yarnell. There was a cell tower up on the mountain just to the east of Yarnell itself. If Marsh had a ‘satellite phone’… he may have just left it in his truck that day since the regular cell tower coverage was so good.
OR… maybe he really DID have TWO ‘cellphones’ out there with him on June 30, 2013.
From the ‘Weather Channel’ interview with author Fernanda Santos…
——————————————————————————————–
THE WEATHER CHANNEL – 23.5 – WITH SAM CHAMPION
Sam Champion: Right now… on twenty three point five…
America’s bravest… Hotshots… putting their lives on the line to fight the deadly wildfires that are sparking up all too often in our drought-stricken west.
One story stands out.
Tragically… a group losing their lives in the sudden, shifting flame.
The nineteen firefighters of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
We will talk with the author of a new book on that tragic event.
+1:01
( The ‘Weather Channel’s interviewer, Sam Champion, begins his segment on the Granite Mountain Hotshots and his interview with author Fernanda Santos… )
Sam Champion:
They are called Hotshots.
They are ‘elite’ firefighters.
The first line of defense battling raging wildfires and sometimes they are the ONLY line of defense.
June 28, 2013.
One of the darkest days in Hotshot history.
( Video clips showing post-deployment activity in the RHR parking lot ).
This is the Yarnell Hill Fire.
19 firefighters overrun by flames in the hills outside of Prescott, Arizona.
ALL of these men losing their lives.
A tragedy that still has questions lingering today.
Author Fernanda Santos takes a look with her new book… “The Fire Line”
( Sam Champion is now seen sitting in a studio with Fernanda Santos, and the ‘interview’ with author Fernanda Santos begins… )
Sam Champion: This fire really blew up quickly…
Fernanda Santos: Mmm… hmmm.
Sam Champion: …and part of it was weather related.
Fernanda Santos: Right.
Sam Champion: There was a series of storms that was just off to… ( Santos interrupts him )…
Fernanda Santos: Northeast. They come from the northeast. The storm had hooked the flames and turned them around so the fire that was going north started coming in the opposite direction…
Sam Champion: To surround them…
Fernanda Santos: Exactly.
Sam Champion: …basically?
Fernanda Santos: Exactly.
( One of Aaron Hulburd’s videos of the burnout operations on Hays Ranch Road plays, with the Audio and a sub-title on the screen saying “Well… the wind shifted” ).
Fernanda Santos: So they are at the top of a mountain. This is a fire run by people they knew very, very well. Uhm… some of them were… uh… fire officials… fire people who trained them to become good firefighters… and I think that that… they were asked TWICE to come down the mountain to help with the town… the little town of Yarnell down there… so that… I’m sure… was something that influenced that decision…
( Major CUT here in the video footage. We no jump to Sam Champion pointing to his own head and saying… )
Sam Champion: That might have stayed in their head ( he is pointing to his head ).
Fernanda Santos: ( Also pointing at her own head now )… Stayed there.
Sam Champion: Right.
+2:23
Fernanda Santos: Right… and… you know… I believe they KNEW the fire was coming that way because they had the… the survivor… a lookout… who was about a mile, two miles away on another mountain and saw the flames come… and WARN them… and… and… got out… very safely… got a ride from somebody… got out of the wild… and the 19 guys stayed back there.
Uhm… and… it… it’s easy for us… you know… to monday-morning-quarterback…
Sam Champion: Sure.
Fernanda Santos: …what happened…
Sam Champion: Sure.
Fernanda Santos: …look back and… and pick apart all the decisions they made… but… uh… these were not inexperienced… uh… you know… guys who had never been in fire.. I mean… so they… they knew… presumably knew very well what they were doing… and HAD gotten out of hairy situations before… so… unfortunately that day… when they made that decision… on… I believe thinking they could make it… you know… things didn’t work out the way they had planned.
( Original Helmet Cam video is now playing in the background, at the point where we hear Eric Marsh coming on the radio and calling out to John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ )
Fernanda Santos: So… the last radio communication that we have from that scene… you can still hear the chainsaws buzzing in the background.
( The interview now pauses and plays all of Eric Marsh’s last transmission )
“Eric Marsh ( to John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ ):
Okay… I’m here with Granite Mountain Hotshots. Our escape route has been cut off. We are preparing a deployment site.and we are burning out around ourselves… in the brush, and I’ll give you a call when we are under the sh… the shelters.
Fernanda Santos: So these guys were trying to clear as much brush as they could to create a… a safety zone. A place that had no vegetation… no fuel, as they call it… to burn… so they could deploy their shelter and give themselves a chance of surviving.
A shelter is a last resort.
If you have to deploy a shelter… you knew… you know that something didn’t go as you had planned… but it gives you a protection against heat… not direct flame contact.
But they didn’t have another option at that time. So that’s what they had to do.
It’s a very risky job… but whenever they make a decision… they think it’s the best decision they can make… they can make at that moment.
So there was a lot of preoccupation among reporters about who gave the order for the crew to leave an area the fire had already burned… go down a canyon that was full of vegetation that had not yet burned… towards a town that the fire was threatening.
Uhm… and I thought… if they went down it’s because they agreed it was the right thing to do.
So what really intrigued me was the fact that they all stayed together.
None of them ran.
None of them… uhm… decided to take off and see if they could make it to the ranch on their own.
None of them… you know… dropped a… a… their backpack in one end and was found far away from the crew.
They were all within a space of about 20 feet by 30 feet.
And to me… there were many things implied in that “last stand” against fire… against flames… and I wanted to understand why.
( Interview pauses while they play the part of one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos where we hear Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson confriming to Yarnell Hill Fire Field OPS1 Todd Abel that there are at least 18 fatatlities ‘on scene’… )
Jason Clawson: Todd… is that you?
Todd Abel: Yeah… go ahead, two.
Jason Clawson: Yeah, Todd… uh… on scene. Eighteen… confirmed.
Todd Abel: Oaky. I copy… and… ah… let’s go ahead and obviously… uh… secure the area and… uh… uhm… we’ll go from there.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Interview transcript continued… )
Sam Champion: You describe visiting the scene and seeing… uh… where they were found… and they were all kind of found tightly together. Tell me why that struck you.
Fernanda Santos: You know… it… it sounds a little… it’s a… it was a very personal emotional moment for me when I got to the site where they had deployed. Ah… the…
Sam Champion: …and by that you meant?
Fernanda Santos: The site where they…
Sam Champion: Take out the?…
Fernanda Santos: …took out their shelters…
Sam Champion: …put it over them?…
Fernanda Santos: …put it over them…
Sam Champion: …and then laid down for the fire?
Fernanda Santos: Exactly.
When I got there… what I saw was not so much the desperation and the sadness of those last moments. What I saw was a message of unity… and teamwork and loyalty. It was one of those things that I felt… who are these people who are ready to lay down with their brothers and wait for a fire to come over and hope that if they survive… they’re all gonna survive together?… and to me that was a much bigger story than the story of a fire… it was a story about human connection… about interaction… about believing in one another…
Sam Champion: Bonding, really…
Fernanda Santos: Right… these guys all of a sudden showed me that… you know what… nothing we do is done alone… and there’s teamwork here… and there’s loyalty… and there’s bonding… there’s brotherhood… there’s friendship… and this, to me, is the enduring message of… of this fire.
( Interview pauses and audio plays some of Joe Biden’s words at the Toyota Center Memorial service following the tragedy ).
Sam Champion: You spent a lot of times with their familes… and I can only imagine how emotional it was for the families, of course, but also for you… uhm… tell me a little bit about the families of people who support their husband or wife to be a hotshot.
Fernanda Santos: You know… you… you kinda have to be in… a very independent person to… to… in fact I say in the book that… ah… divorce is a common ending for hotshot love stories because your husband or wife will usually leave home around mid-April… in the west… go out… fight fire… may come home, you know, here and there, pop in for a coupla days, and then be out again, and not come back until mid-October. You will be sometimes hearing from him… from her… when they are out on the fire line… sometimes not… because they may be very busy… they may be in an area that doesn’t have cellphone reception.
In fact.. Eric Marsh, the superintendent of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, got a satellite phone so that he could call his wife… and his men… the members of the crew… they were all men… could call home as well.
One of that guys, Travis Turbyfill, had two little girls at home… many of them have children… had children… and… ah… he had a copy of “Good Night Moon” in his backpack… and he would call home at night and read the book before his daughters went to sleep. Those were real people… you know… people like… I could see myself and my husband in those scenes… and.. ah… you know… the wives that I met… ah… were pretty used to that. I mean… some of them struggled more than others but they understood that’s… that comes with the territory. You married somebody who does this job you have to accept that… because loving that person comes… uh… with loving the job they do.
( Interview pauses and screen now shows an ‘UP NEXT’ banner )
Sam Champion: What can we do so this never happens again?
Fernanda Santos: There is a proposal in the very early of stages of Congress right now… and it’s important… because that can make a… a difference between somebody living and dying.
END OF VIDEO
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NOTE: “The Weather Channel” has not uploaded ‘PART 2’ of this interview to their YouTube channel yet. I do not know what ‘legislation’ Santos is referring to.
“Fernanda Santos: There is a proposal in the very early of stages of Congress right now… and it’s important… because that can make a… a difference between somebody living and dying.”
maybe by reading Charlie’s comments here….I have not spoken to Fernanda by phone or email since about a month ago but there is that going on somewhere just like it is 5oclock somewhere wwtktt…but it is happening…yet I do not know if she means maybe something different involving Fann who is the only one to vote for on the ballots for Senate and I know who left her area blank here locally—she did not get a fill in on some here locally- but I am not sure what area Fernanda meant but there is stuff in the works on alot of areas…
speaking of cases
here is ACRI vs STATE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tphNGwUCWMw
Fernanda is correct in thinking there were other influences in their decision to go down into the death trap. She forgot to mention that Steed and Marsh argued, and Marsh won out over Steed’s better judgement against taking the men down into a deadly risk situation. This is information Donut himself alluded to but has kept his mouth shut under the excuse of PTSD. We hiked Fernanda the full length of the two track and even to the point of origin of the fire. She knows about the alternative to cutting out that thick manzanita and placing it in a circle about the men was to simply turn and get into the boulder field very proximimate to their deployment location I keep saying 70 yards and that would be a close estimate since we were right there with the ADOSH men at the fence that circumscribes the deployment area. Neither Brent nor Bruce were firemen nor experienced with outdoor situations but they both had good common sense and knew once they trekked the exact way the men hiked to the two track point of decent into the basin that it was a gross error and against all good sense to drop off into that situation–especially to risk the lives of those young men they were bossing. The bosses, looking at the easily visible two track from the Ranch House Cafe parking lot had to see the steepness and danger of having those men descend into that death trap–and they damn sure knew the fire had already changed with winds up to 45mph and a fire laying down 100+sheets of fire with embers flying more than a half mile to make dangerous spot fires that would easily cut the men off as well. They had to know that fire doubles in velocity with every ten degrees and at 11 mph only ten degree increase in elevation up that chimney would increase its speed to 22mph. Then add the chimney effect of that basin canyon and you would have what keeps so many firemen wondering what fools would commit those men to such stupid action. Especially knowing not even an army could have had an effect on a fire as intense and out of control as that one. Consider that Jumbo jet retardant dumps right in front of the fire edge had no effect and those bosses had to know that as well, so what the hell were they thinking by putting a few men with Pulaskis in front of such a horrific scene?
Still no one wants to take responsibility for those deaths and the way the Yarnell Hill Fire was mismanged. The fact alone that the ADOSH investigation showed there was mismangement to the tune of fining some of the responsible parties to the hilt proves the mismanagement–yet this whole debacle is under cover like an undercover cop in a whorehouse.
I do maintain to this day the boulder field very close (approximately 70 yards to the south of the men and about the size of a football field in area was a life saving safety zone that would have kept the men alive. Those men would have had time to make it there and the boulders were constantly in my mind when Joy and I were escaping. I had it fully in mind that the fire could change at any moment due to the pending thunderstorms and during our escape to the south and over to the west side of the Weavers. Therefore, it makes sense to me that these men were drilled into the belief that those flimsy blankets were going to protect them in a manzanita fire if they but cut out brush and piled it around them. All it proved was that those blankets are to use Gary Olson’s expression “Turkey Roasters”. Someone indeed was a Turkey, first off to get those men in an absolutely avoidable and no-no wild fire fighter situation and then to deny the men an alternative to run to the boulders that would have saved their lives. It is heart sicking to go among the boulders and see how many caves there are where you can actually go below ground level with huge boulders as cover. Well the mountain lions and bob cats knew it and used them since we saw both unscathed just after the fire.
Thanks again to the books Fernanda sent–she took the longest hike with us next to Josh Ells of Rolling Stones magazine. Those young people are positive and energetic people. Fernanda reminds me of my own daughter there in Scottsdale–lots of energy and a great contributor to the lives of others.
This debacle is getting at the truth and much of it is coming out. It is obvious that many do not want the facts out. Yesterday I took Joy again to the local fire department in her attempts to get FOIA information. This should be a given and a prompt service available to the public. But it has now taken months and she is still being denied the information she is seeking here. They have used excuses all the way from calling the Deputy Sheriff on Joy saying she is disturbing the peace there to Chief Ben Palm is off on a fire. When Chief Ben Palm was to meet Joy at the fire station once at an appointed time he did not show. And now he says she did not fill out her for properly and said she had not met protocol so it was denied, then we begin to wonder what there is to hide. This is public information, Chief Ben Palm, as do all fire departments work for the public. What they do and their reports are subject to public scrutiny and those records should be immediately available to any tax paying person as prescribed by the law of the land.
She had no such problem with Congress or Wickenburg records in her possession. She also did receive in less time the records from the FS and Prescott Fire Departments. What exempts Yarnell Fire Department from the law on releasing documents under FOIA law and why the long delay there?
Perhaps some ohters on this site will send in FOIA’s to the Yarnell Fire Department to see if they get results–maybe Joy is just being singled out because she is one of the Yarnell Hikers.
Sounds like Fernanda has talked herself into telling what she thinks we all want to know…
Oh, they died united and as one, a cohesive unit of co workers hotshots, blah blah blah…
Still does not tell us WHY!!
Why were wild land fires in other areas such as near Prescott and Sedona fought in a different manner than the one in Yarnell?
That’s a broad question… but in the case of Yarnell… you have to look at it in terms of there, essentially, being TWO ‘different’ Yarnell fires, in 2013.
The FIRST Yarnell fire was the one that was ignited by a lightning strike on the afternoon of July 28, 2013.
At first they thought it was BLM ( Federal ) land… but it was soon discovered that it was actually on Arizona State Trust Land.
But that is why representatives from BOTH organizations showed up in Yarnell to ‘evaluate’ that just-started wildfire out there on that ridge west of Yarnell.
Arizona State Forestry sent their on-rotation duty officer Russ Shumate, and BLM sent their on-duty officer Bruce Olsen.
Once the exact location was determined ( not long after the initial lightning strike )… there was no question that it was Arizona Forestry’s ‘job’ to deal with it… but since that area is a ‘patchwork’ of both Arizona State Trust Land and BLM land… Shumate and Olsen were basically doing the ‘evaluation’ on Friday afternoon/evening TOGETHER ( described in Shumate’s own Unit Log as a ‘Unified Command’ approach ).
But they BOTH ( Shumate and Olsen ) decided there wasn’t much that could be done on Friday… and the PLAN was to just “leave it alone” all night and then start some kind of “Initial Attack” on Saturday morning… utilizing both BLM and Arizona Forestry resources.
What that really boiled down to was an ‘agreement’ between Shumate and Olsen that…
1. Arizona Forestry would show up Saturday morning with TWO Department of Corrections Type 2 IA crews ( Lewis and Yuma prison crews ).
2. BLM would get the helicopter it had on contract in that area ( N14HX ) to show up in Yarnell Saturday morning.
3. BOTH agencies would keep a few Type 6 Engines they had available ‘on call’ for Saturday in that area.
4. The ‘assumption’ on the part of BOTH Shumate and Olsen was that there might be MORE ‘lighting strike fires’ appearing in the morning that hadn’t been visible on Friday… and that they might end up having to do ‘Initial Attack’ on Saturday on a number of small fires that might be threatening EITHER Arizona State Trust Land OR BLM land… depending on where they ‘popped up’.
Type 2 IA Crews are not Type 1 Hotshot crews… but Type 2 IA crews are still SUPPOSED to be able to hike at least a number of miles to a fire and do their ‘Initial Attack’.
On Saturday morning… BOTH of the Type 2 IA Prison crews ( Yuma and Lewis ) got to Yarnell, as requested, as early as 8:00 AM.
So by 8:00 AM… Russ Shumate had at least 40 ( FORTY ) Wildlandn Firefighters right there in the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station… ready to go to work.
Because of the ‘plan’ ( expecting other ‘smokes’ to appear on Saturday morning )… Shumate wanted to keep one of the DOC crews on ‘standby’ to respond to any as yet… unseen ‘smokes’.
He picked the Lewis crew to deal with the KNOWN ‘lightning strike’ fire out there on the ridge that they had left burning all night.
But nothing really happened all morning except that the Crew Leader of the Lewis crew did a ‘recon’ and then informed Russ Shumate there was no way HIS crew was going to be able to achieve a hike out to the fire.
There is no report whether Shumate then consulted with the OTHER DOC crew ( Yuma ) to see if THEY could ‘achieve a hike’ out to that known fire out there on that ridge west of Yarnell.
Shumate did not challenge the ‘report’ from the Lewis DOC Crew Boss ( Jake Guadiana ) about his Type 2 IA crew being ‘unable to achieve a hike out to the fire’. Shumate just accepted that as the ‘truth’ and then changed his ‘plan’.
So that’s when the ‘plan’ became to just fly a FEW FFs out there on Saturday to deal with this FIRST ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.
N14HX was a ‘Crew Shuttle’ capable helicopter… and it also showed up ‘bucket ready’ with its own water-bucket.
But because of the ‘air-density’ and ‘altitude’ and ‘lift capacity’ issues that ALWAYS have to be factored in when using helicopters… it was determined that only THREE firefighters ( and their ‘gear’ ) at a time could be ‘flown’ from the Yarnell Fire Station Helipad out to the ‘fire’.
So now it’s approaching 11:30 AM… and the 40 ( FORTY ) firefighters Russ Shumate had available to him since 8:00 AM have been doing nothing at all for upwards of 3 and 1/2 hours.
There were then only TWO ‘Shuttle flights’ out to that FIRST ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’… delivering only 6 Wildland Firefighters out of the 40 ( FORTY ) that Shumate had available. Helitack Nate Peck had already been ‘dropped off’ out there when chopper N14HX first arrived and did its ‘recon’… making it a total of only SEVEN firefighters that would then be tasked with ‘mopping up’ that original lightning strike fire that had been left to burn all night.
Well… as we all know… that 7 person “Initial Attack” ended up a TOTAL FAILURE.
The fire ‘escaped’ its original location later in the afternoon ( probably because of a rotor-wash incident )… and so began the SECOND ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ and the one that would end up destroying the entire area ( and taking 19 lives ) the following day.
I think it all boils down to a sense of ‘urgency’… and the ability to ‘envision’ what COULD happen.
In Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate’s case… he FAILED on BOTH counts.
He had plenty of resources available to him on Saturday alone to make sure that fire which was only a few acres on Saturday morning ended up ‘dead as a doornail’ during that operational shift.
But he FAILED to USE them for that purpose.
He, apparently, did NOT have any kind of full understanding of what was GOING to happen if he let that fire ‘escape’ where it was and get down into those draws and valleys and ‘bowls’.
Hence… there was no appropriate sense of ‘urgency’ on Saturday… and no efficient use of the resources he DID have available to him.
1. Only 7 of the 41 firefighters he had available to him since 8:00 AM ever engaged the fire until it started to ‘escape’ later in the afternoon.
2. BLM contract helicopter N14HX had arrived at 10:30 AM that morning fully ‘bucket ready’ to do ‘drops’ all day and help nail the lid on that small-acreage fire. Shumate NEVER used it for that.
3. Shumate himself NEVER actually ‘visited’ the site of the fire itself. He stayed at the Yarnell Fire Station all day Saturday.
Even Brock Heathcotte, one of the lawyers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office tasked with ‘representing’ Arizona Forestry in the property damage lawsuits just admitted ( in the open-court oral arguments ) that Arizona Forestry had both the DUTY and the RESPONSIBILITY to ‘not act in a negligent manner’ and to make SURE that FIRST ( original ) ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ did NOT ‘escape’ its location on State Trust Lands.
From the recent ‘oral arguments’…
NOTE: At this point in the ‘appeal’ hearing… Arizona Division 1 Appellate Court Judge Peter Swann is asking a critical question DIRECTLY to Brock Heathcotte, the attorney at the podium speaking on behalf of Arizona Forestry…
The very reason they are even HAVING the ‘appeal hearing’ is because the lower court Judge denied the plaintiffs their ‘day in court’ because he ruled that Arizona Foresty had no “duty” to handle the fire reasonably… even though Arizona Forestry had obviously ‘taken charge’ of the Yarnell Fire on Friday night and onward…
———————————————————
Appellate Court Judge Peter Swan: But the allegation is that… it… uh… that essentially there was a… a collection of people… uh… from various agencies working to… stop this fire… and that the STATE supervised the effort and directed it. That’s the allegation. I don’t know what sort of factual disputes might arise from it… but that’s the allegation we have to take at face value. So… so IF the STATE ‘decides’ to coordinate those efforts… doesn’t it bear some responsibility for coordinating the efforts ‘reasonably’?
AZFS Attorney Brock Heathcotte: Uh… sure.
Judge Swan:: And isn’t that “a duty”?
Brock Heathcotte: Uh… sure.
LONG pause. No one says anything and there is dead silence in the courtroom. Even Judge Swan is astounded and doesn’t quite know what to say next. Heathcotte has just basically fully admitted that the lawsuits should never have been ‘dismissed’ at all by the lower court.
——————————————————————
WTKTT,
Thank you for putting that storyline together. It helped me to visualize developments in the first day or so of the fire.
Can’t understand why the bucket drops weren’t utilized on Saturday.
Is there any reasonable explanation for Shumate not taking control of the fire on saturday?
Very reasonable explanation. There is a photo of a copter and water bag beside on Saturday. The prison crew witnessed it as well. They did not have information as to why it was not used. But there is money to be made in these fires if you let them go long enough. You put people to work, and clear manzanita for the rancher as well. Now grass and edible plants grow back and cattle can range. Go on Iron Mountain Road out of Prescott toward Skull Valley. About 7 miles out or so you will see the same manzanita of the previous fire the GMHS fought was burned off and now growing in its place are plenty of grass land available to cattle, deer, etc. Manzanita is not a cattle food.
WTKTT,
This interview with Sam champion and Fernando santos does not appear to be what I saw recently.
I tuned in in the middle but it was shorter-the interviewer looked the same and Fernanda Santos-I remember her discussing the hotshots tools. Maybe I saw part 2. I was viewing it in Indianapolis.
What would be ideal is if Fernanda would address the death and dying aftermath of the retardant dumps surrounding Yarnell. There has been somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million gallons of that agent orange poisonous retardant dumped about the town almost as if Yarnell is now a federal and state experiment to see the effects on human health.
And seeing them we are. It seems every time I take a trip to town something else appears. In Wickenburg we saw Suzie and Tom. I don’t know if they still run the Yarnell food bank or not, but Suzie is relatively young–I would guess 45-50. Since the Retardant dumps she is now in a wheel chair with Tom pushing her around. A stroke and respiratory problems has put her there. That was in the morning.
On our way back from Wittman, again we stopped at the tractor store to pick up some things. Joy met some people-Shar and husband. She shared some really good photos of the fire early on–Joy will post those. (Shar, incidentally knew Joy when she was totally incapacitated and had to walk like a zombie with her arm frozen in front of her body and hand down–Joy’s walks from Congress to Wickenburg that way). She did not know about the hidden chemicals or that the retardant can and does cause lung problems. She is a Congress lady but around Yarnel enough. She too says she is having respiratory problems since the fire. When will people wake up to the disasterous effects on health of this slop delivered near residences? She was quite shocked to learn that over 100 resident Yarnellites have succumbed since the Yarnell fire. That amount of deaths makes 19 look small in my estimation, although even one death was not necessary as a direct result of this fire.
When more than one sixth of the population is dead and another one third or more are suffering health problems after the enormous retardant drops next to residents, you would think the investigation into `19 would be secondary to the deaths of the 19 when we know why they died–due to the carelessness of their bosses.
People do not generally know that that ammonium phosphate, nitrate and sulfates passed over embers was the major way cyanide was manufactured for years. They certainly do not know what the secret ingredients are that are hidden under trade secret baloney. And the big business and money interests do not want you to know no more than the cigarette companies wanted people to know how their cigarettes were causing heart, lung and cancer disasters.
I know there may be some Senate inquiries into how these wild fires are managed due to the needless deaths of the 19 GMHS crew, but will there be any inquiries into the deaths of those local Yarnell people? Not until they drop some of that poisonous slop in the back yard of Karen Fann or our illustrious Govenor. However, given my knowledge of Karen Fann, I suspect she might cause an investigation. After all, people come before profits if you are representing them.
I get it Joy is hot on the trail of getting all about the 19. It is a shame that the local fire department is so coy at keeping FOIA records from her. Peeples Valley can be added to that list–they too do not want their information out. In my opinion, if these people were honest and had nothing to hide, they would be tripping over themselves to get the information out to her or any other tax payer The excuses they have given don’t meet standards of proper service to those supporting their paychecks.
Correction: 19 deaths is small compared to over 100 residents of Yarnell since the fire. That retardant is more deadly and health ruining than the wild fire of Yarnell that took away the lives of the 19. It is another proposition like Chernobyl where the atmosphere and winds spread the effects into proximate and perhaps not so proximate environments.
charlie said:I know there may be some Senate inquiries into how these wild fires are managed due to the needless deaths of the 19 GMHS crew
MY REPLY: not if Fann is put into Senate position Charlie—I doubt she would look into it…Shar did not know who FANN was and there was WRITE IN but no other name and being a REPUBLICAN she just filled her in…yet the transparency from certain PUBLIC SERVANTS is getting a bit WAY WEIRD…as one stated DON’T THESE PUBLIC SERVANTS know they are PUBLIC and they are to SERVE the PUBLIC…
Yes Charlie, in June I asked for a FOIA form from YFD and it was a Summer game for them even calling YCSO and I make sure ALL public bodies COMPREHEND if I am in YOUR public building I am documenting it (Video or Audio) for my own journey of the aftermaths of 2 fires…and late August I finally got to file my commercial FOIA and the questions I had delivered 8/23/16:
COMMERCIAL PURPOSE- Research Purpose.
1. I would like the temporary agreement document and any or all documents that gave YFD Chief Ben Palm the authority and/or codifies some kind of “official” agreement between YFD CBPalm and Arizona State Memorial Park and WHO was given YFD CBPalm that authority role to the restricted areas and the date it began as well between YFD CBPalm and State Trusted Land in the start.
2. Since it is an area where anything can happen and for insurance reasons there has to be some documentation and I want a copy of the list to WHO has been granted since June 30 2013 until PRESENT “special access” to the currently closed State Land transitioned into Arizona State Memorial Park and the dates it was granted and accessed and by whom.
3. Document of the original temporary agreement between YFD CBPalm and State Land restriction of 320 acres transfer to new temporary agreement with Arizona State Memorial Park
4. I request YFD Chief Ben Palm entire personnel file even evaluations/reviews since being with YFD even under his prior positions before being assigned chief and NO PUBLIC JOB POSTING was made for that chief spot. I want all certificates and qualifications and red card documents as well.
5. ANY documentation that shows position YFDCBPalm on his tie to YHRG/GMHS/YFD Memorial Boards that shows his ROLE on the board.
6. YFD vehicle: Hummer. I want any documentation how this vehicle is used for YFD and Chief Ben Palm- any mileage logs, who is able to use it, make model year and maintenance records.
7. I am aware of certain individuals in the film industry due to my history in that area and I know certain film industry individuals were in Yarnell this Summer- I want any documentation or list of names that YFDCBPalm engaged in any type of staff ride or tour log like maybe YFDCBPalm’s time sheets/logs/- any document or log or email/anything that ties the chief with the film industry dates in Yarnell.
8. All 2016 documentation of YFDCBPalm involvement/time sheet/log/anything/etc.of his presence on highway 89 with ACE as well as vehicle hummer tied to hwy parking on hwy 89 tied to ACE.
9. Repetitive but this time as a commercial purpose- 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 salary for YFDCBPalm- each year annual final salary.
10. Time sheet for YFDCBPalm for the documented SPECIAL staff ride for film industry this Summer 2106- or any other staff rides that YFDCBPalm was present to-
11.MAP. I want the map that NY Times F. Santos article published (wfgi.org) that YFDCBPalm showed Santos at tenderfoot fire command post (THICK red lines drawn on map) that YFDCBPalm told Santos- represented exact location of fuel breaks that had been constructed prior to the fire using state and federal grant monies. Please provide me a COLOR reproduction of the EXACT map Santos saw that she did her article on and is permanently archived on web history-
I heard there was going to be a delay 10-8-16 9:16am and that is when he handed me paper I had NO OPTION to during business hours review the public records…???? I stated by the law he is wrong and I needed a revised letter which I never got yet…
he delayed the foia because YFDCBPalm was on a wildfire but 2 months later almost…10-20-16 he notifies me even though I wrote for RESEARCH PURPOSE on original he wanted a DETAILED statement of exactly what I plan to do with his documents so my addendum was filed 10-21-16 2-2:20pm in person and handed to Denise Roggio with Nina BourBeau present…my recorder on and present and Sonny popped in twice during 20 minute visit.
I stated my intent of making COMMERCIAL request vs NON COMMERCIAL one was to simply make it easier for some news organizations to publish the response material if they so desire in my research and discussion of materials.
I am very well aware they can consul my data with the attorney general and Governor and may have some resolution that my request is denied but they are not able to deny me as a noncommercial on same exact request- for personal clarity.
I also made it clear in addendum I want the EXACT color version map Santos was shown and to make sure since their history has been POOR I will not send traceable the payment and want to make appointment to pay in person and request a receipt by them for my payment with date and time on receipt.
I also reconfirmed that in no way can they restrict me from that building to review documents if I opted that way and that letter needs to be revised-.
I have no problem a court to review Arlon Rice’s behavior that day they called YCSO and in tone said “you are not from this district so why do you care…what business is it of yours?” That public body knows I record my visits and Arlon was there when I placed recorder on table in front of them at that meeting—
I do not DO THIS to cause mayhem or troubles but I have this puzzle box and all these pieces and I just want to ensure all my pieces belong to THIS puzzle box and are not intertwined into SOMETHING LARGER…like maybe I need other puzzle boxes to GET the puzzle just right to present it ALL publicly…
again when I eventually podcast I won’t say what it is but I will say what I asked for as a non-commercial and guide people to WHERE to get their own on IMPORTANT areas—
does that help Charlie?
also Charlie in the midst of the varieties of challenges shown my way I have faith in God that He is working behind the scenes for things NONE of us can currently can SEE…I know by the people He has shown me along the way after these fires and certain incoming data validates to me THERE is something very POSITIVE on the HORIZON- and it is coming…so anyone feel like all has been said and done and this blog lays QUIET lately…please hold on to H O P E and F A I T H…as I walk alone in the fields of Congress holding my heart (because hard to breathe)…I really am reminded how each and everyone of us can “disconnect” from the fast paced energy we live and connect to our own heart centers (one foot in front of the other at ANY size from one town to another climbing a mountain or crossing a desert there I AM)…there is people connected to the 19 men who DO blog (not in a book but LIVE online even THREE+ years later) about their horrific hours when they learned the person they love so much just died in a wildfire…I just wish that some of them that share their depth who felt so strongly that this was totally preventable and it should of never happened would be LEADING THE EFFORT to make sure no one else has to get the SAME “phone call” and some may feel by being in association with all areas gives them the IN…I am sorry the “larger package” and all the associations you have gained all this time will not lead you to what God led us to…it does take people who with depth really want to know to be North and be at these meetings…and due to certain “Charlies” reading this not YOU Charlie it is important not to place it public so they cannot destroy or harm the POSITIVES to come…the firefighting industry DNA is ok but SOME need to pave new pathways for the next generation with changing some tactics in HOW they fight these fires- IT IS A MUST…and YES thank you to the person DRIVING through Yarnell from Kingman June 8th for pulling over and taking those photos early on- See HOW God leads this journey…piece by piece…for the ones I say SPEAK UP; this is for YOU:
http://www.brainyquote.com/photos/m/marktwain122044.jpg
monday-morning-quarterback…
IS THAT A COMMON COMMENT?
that statement was in my court case and I had never heard it before and there is 4 female energies that stated that exact phrase at different phrases? are all the 4 female energies connected and that is how it is known or is it a COMMON phrase-
different phrases was meant to say phases
RE: monday-morning-quarterbacking
I’ve got a newsflash for Fernanda Santos and anyone else who uses that sports-oriented phrase to try and ‘dismiss’ open discussion about a National Historic Tragedy.
It wasn’t a football game.
When people screw up, make mistakes, and subject others to their poor decision making in a ‘football game’… people entrusted to their care don’t end up burning to death.
Besides… even if people using that phrase really do think it was just some kind of ‘sporting event’ in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… then if they also think the muliti-billion dollar collegiate and professional football industries do NOT do their own continual “monday morning quarterbacking”… then they don’t have a clue about modern-day high-dollar football programs.
They are ALWAYS ‘evaluating’ their ‘performance’… and they are ALWAYS taking the closest looks possible at the ‘mistakes’ they make in order to try and prevent ( as much as humanly possible ) those SAME mistakes from being made again.
Joy, Part 1
You have randomly brought up a very good point much like even a blind hog occasionally finds an acorn. A point that is simple on its face but complex at its core. In addition to being like so much of this story, in that its similar to an opinion in that it has many layers.
So…I have been moved to write some more on my book that I am actually writing on this thread, although I am going to write my thoughts in a bullet point format so I don’t have to spend any time stringing them together into cogent paragraphs that segue from one to the next because I am a lazy author who is easily distracted.
• On one had you must not get out much except to empty (by my standards) and God forsaken desert or caves filled with potential death, either by trauma because slabs of rock fall on you or because you fall through rotten timbers to your death when the ground opens up beneath your feet because some crazy miner put wood over a vertical shaft more than a hundred years ago and then covered those with dirt as they kept digging a horizontal shaft.
Or maybe you will be lucky and slowly kill yourself by contracting Hantavirus by crawling through pack rat middens and urine soaked guano left by bats that carry rabies. And if you are really lucky you might die slower by exposing yourself to only God knows what highly toxic and very dangerous chemicals those same crazy miners left behind like the Snakeman apparently did and you might now be dying from.
On the other hand, you have apparently gotten out more than the rest of us combined as evidenced by the confusing and complex glimpses into your personal life you have shared with us that rather than bring any clarity to your personality and give some background that could shed some light on how you arrive at your opinions and motivations, are more like briefly looking through a kaleidoscope down the rabbit hole trying to find Alice.
• The use of the phrase “Monday morning quarterbacking”, which is often interchanged with the phrase “armchair quarterback” is commonly used across all segments of our society and culture to describe unqualified people (amateurs) who don’t know shit from Shinola about a particular subject or activity trying to second guess those who know a great deal (professionals) about the same subject or activity through the benefit of hindsight because hindsight is always 20/20. You have heard that one right?
The use of the first two phrases presuppose that the tactics and strategies employed by those who played the football game in question actually played the game over the weekend or that we watched it from an armchair and we are now discussing it and challenging how and why they fucked up on Monday morning at the office while standing around the water cooler. None of which might be true because the football game might have been played on Thursday night because we might actually be analyzing the game during a “tail gate” session out at the job site which is colloquial vernacular preferred by those who bleed green.
• So…WTKTT is right. Every aspect of every game, whether it is a Junior League youth football game coached by volunteer coaches or an NFL football played by highly paid professional athletes where any team can beat any other team on “any given Sunday” are dissected and analyzed to the nth degree by their players and coaches.
Any given Sunday is another saying that presupposes all professional football games are played on a Sunday night which probably says a lot about how much influence the NFL and Sunday night football has had on our culture, but that is another subject and I am already digressing too much.
Or at least those games that are played by players and coached by coaches who either want to keep winning games or start winning games are dissected and analyzed to the nth degree. Gee…I guess that really does say a lot about the assholes who evaluated the Yarnell Hill Fire led by Dudley Do Wrong who determined nobody did anything wrong during that game?
• They sure as hell didn’t win the particular game in question called the Yarnell Hill Fire and maybe indicates they don’t really care that much if they win the next one or not? Would that be akin to a professional football game being coached by coaches and played by players who lost a game 1000 to zip and then unilaterally awarded themselves (as Sonny keeps reminding us) Super Bowl rings in a collective WF culture circle jerk?
• What the critics of this little experiment in social media say is true. We are armchair quarterbacks who are critiquing their game on Monday morning around the water cooler in a tailgate session with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
There is really only thing those same critics are missing. Almost everyone who has participated here are either the equivalent of current or former professional football players and coaches who have all earned Super Bowl rings in the past in their particular fields (Sonny has several for underground mining, hell raising and only God knows what else).
Or they are people who have common sense and a desire to know why 19 of the best of the best WF died in the worst wildfire disaster in our country’s history like Joy, who might have some Super Bowl rings from something in her eclectic and multifaceted past…maybe as a saucier, a sous-chef or even the head chef? I don’t know? A Super Bowl rings really just says you are the best at what you do. Don’t tell me WTKTT doesn’t have the equivalent of a Super Bowl icon somewhere in his data base. And I know Marti had one for photography and crime scene analysis.
In any case…almost everyone who has participated here know more than Mr. Dudley Do Wrong knows because he said no one did anything wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire and most of those who have contributed to this thread instinctively know the exact opposite is true.
• As a result of the most recent discussion I have also learned that Santos go it mostly right…or close enough Maybe even close enough for government work even if it is decidedly NOT up to WTKTT standards.
But then again, the work of humans really can’t be compared to the work of machines ever since the steel driving man John Henry’s big heart exploded, nor can our brains be compared to AI like WTKTT ever since Deep Blue beat Garry Kasparov 3.5 to 2.5. in their second 6 game series. Although Kasparov did accuse IBM of cheating and rather than have a play-off series, IBM retired Deep Blue, so like The Donald says…who knows?
Part 2
Anyway…Santos said (more or less);
1. “Northeast. They come from the northeast. The storm had hooked the flames and turned them around so the fire that was going north started coming in the opposite direction…”
And that is what happened. The winds reversed the direction the wind was blowing and when it did the fire came back it surrounded them.
2. “So they are at the top of a mountain (or mound, you say tomato…I say tomato). This is a fire run by people they knew very, very well. Uhm… some of them were… uh… fire officials… fire people who trained them to become good firefighters… and I think that that… they were asked TWICE to come down the mountain to help with the town… the little town of Yarnell down there… so that… I’m sure… was something that influenced that decision…And that might have stayed in their heads…”
And that is certainly a conclusion I agree with.
3. “Right… and… you know… I believe they KNEW the fire was coming that way because they had the… the survivor… a lookout… who was about a mile, two miles away on another mountain and saw the flames come… and WARN them… and… and… got out… very safely… got a ride from somebody… got out of the wild… and the 19 guys stayed back there.”
And the most important thing is…they knew the fire was coming even if it was because they could see it coming and not because their lookout told them it was.
4. “…look back and… and pick apart all the decisions they made… but… uh… these we
are not inexperienced… uh… you know… guys who had never been in fire.. I mean… so they… they knew… presumably knew very well what they were doing… and HAD gotten out of hairy situations before… so… unfortunately that day… when they made that decision… on… I believe thinking they could make it… you know… things didn’t work out the way they had planned.”
Which is all true, the ones making the fatal decisions were experienced and they were among the best of the best even if they still weren’t good enough and according to RTS, they had plenty of previous experience fucking up bad and getting out of it somehow.
5. So these guys were trying to clear as much brush as they could to create a… a safety zone. A place that had no vegetation… no fuel, as they call it… to burn… so they could deploy their shelter and give themselves a chance of surviving. A shelter is a last resort. If you have to deploy a shelter… you knew… you know that something didn’t go as you had planned… but it gives you a protection against heat… not direct flame contact..But they didn’t have another option at that time. So that’s what they had to do. It’s a very risky job… but whenever they make a decision… they think it’s the best decision they can make… they can make at that moment.”
Which is also more or less true, Sonny and I are in agreement they should have run because if were you are thinking about deploying a fire shelter is NOT survivable…you MUST run, but even the experienced WF here have not all agreed with that position.
6. “So there was a lot of preoccupation among reporters about who gave the order for the crew to leave an area the fire had already burned… go down a canyon that was full of vegetation that had not yet burned… towards a town that the fire was threatening. Uhm… and I thought… if they went down it’s because they agreed it was the right thing to do.”
Which are statements that are again…more or less true? The other big issue that she does leave out is I for one, would like to know what exactly…the plan was. And of course there are still the unknowns we don’t know about because well…they are unknown.
7. “So what really intrigued me was the fact that they all stayed together. None of them ran. None of them… uhm… decided to take off and see if they could make it to the ranch on their own. None of them… you know… dropped a… a… their backpack in one end and was found far away from the crew. They were all within a space of about 20 feet by 30 feet. And to me… there were many things implied in that “last stand” against fire… against flames… and I wanted to understand why.”
Which is also so true and speaks to things I am a big proponent of, crew cohesiveness and looking for Easter eggs if the crew boss says its Easter…even if it is June 30.
8, “When I got there… what I saw was not so much the desperation and the sadness of those last moments. What I saw was a message of unity… and teamwork and loyalty. It was one of those things that I felt… who are these people who are ready to lay down with their brothers and wait for a fire to come over and hope that if they survive… they’re all gonna survive together?… and to me that was a much bigger story than the story of a fire… it was a story about human connection… about interaction… about believing in one another…
Sam Champion: Bonding, really…
Fernanda Santos: Right… these guys all of a sudden showed me that… you know what… nothing we do is done alone… and there’s teamwork here… and there’s loyalty… and there’s bonding… there’s brotherhood… there’s friendship… and this, to me, is the enduring message of… of this fire.”
I am in agreement again; a hotshot crew has to believe in themselves and their leaders or the system doesn’t work and a lot more hotshots would have been killed. And luckily there have only been two other hotshot crew bosses in history that were as deeply flawed as Eric Marsh.
9. “You know… you… you kinda have to be in… a very independent person to… to… in fact I say in the book that… ah… divorce is a common ending for hotshot love stories because your husband or wife will usually leave home around mid-April… in the west… go out… fight fire… may come home, you know, here and there, pop in for a coupla days, and then be out again, and not come back until mid-October. You will be sometimes hearing from him… from her… when they are out on the fire line… sometimes not… because they may be very busy… they may be in an area that doesn’t have cell phone reception.
In fact, Eric Marsh, the superintendent of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, got a satellite phone so that he could call his wife… and his men… the members of the crew… they were all men… could call home as well.
One of that guys, Travis Turbyfill, had two little girls at home… many of them have children… had children… and… ah… he had a copy of “Good Night Moon” in his backpack… and he would call home at night and read the book before his daughters went to sleep. Those were real people… you know… people like… I could see myself and my husband in those scenes… and.. ah… you know… the wives that I met… ah… were pretty used to that. I mean… some of them struggled more than others but they understood that’s… that comes with the territory. You married somebody who does this job you have to accept that… because loving that person comes… uh… with loving the job they do.”
And of course that is all very true. I don’t remember if I have told these anecdotes on this thread or not…but when our oldest daughter turned 23 we had a birthday party for her and she told me, “You know dad, this if the first time I can remember you being here for my birthday.” Ouch…that one hurt.
And of course that is because I kept up my hotshot ways even when I wasn’t a hotshot anymore still chasing the dragon in search of my next adrenaline fix. The second anecdote is I was always bringing presents home to our kids to compensate for being gone so much and when they were giving away the Taco Bell Chihuahua’s…remember those, ¡Yo quiero Taco Bell!” I want some Taco Bell?
Anyway I ate enough of that gag a maggot Mexican food (why eat there when there is usually a Carneicera with an adjacent taquería just down the street) to get a set for all three of our kids and I even got the one with the heart on it for my wife one time.
I thought I was being pretty darn romantic but when I got home and handed it to her…she took it from my hand as she walked by and without missing a beat said, “Thanks…I guess we can call this my anniversary present since our anniversary was last week.” Double ouch…that one left a mark.
Although I still don’t know exactly what the problem was…that was the nicest anniversary gift I ever got her and I always forgot our anniversary date. Although our marriage was a really low key and forgettable affair without a honeymoon in front of a Justice of the Peace in Phoenix with only a couple of witnesses since her family well…hated me. Can you believe someone…anyone, hating ME…WTF? And we have always been unconventional since my dear wife is really as different from most people as I am. But…again I digress.
The salient point is…I think Santos got that part right. And yes, I am interested in learning what new proposals are in front of congress. BUT…if is not the U.S. Congress ordering the USFS to straighten up and fly right as they have done in the past, it won’t make any difference because the local Queen of Quid Pro Quo and the rest of the state legislature in Arizonaistan are irrelevant to making things better for WF in the future.
Reply to Woodsman post on October 15, 2016 at 3:32 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Tapping into the demand of firefighter’s to gain bonafide NWGC
>> red-card qualifications & their taskbooks signed off can be quite lucrative, huh?
According to the article below…
1. This entire CHLOETA FIRE sponsored ‘Academy’ was only created to supply
the CHLOTEA people themselves with the ‘RED-CARD’ ratings and the ‘training’
THEY needed to keep operating ( and making money ) as independent contractors.
Then they decided to ‘open up’ this “RED-CARD VENDING MACHINE” to anyone
and make even more money.
2. There was, at least, a comment from Brendan McDonough in this article about
what he says he was GOING to talk about in his $1500 speech last night. Brendan
indicates the ‘speech’ was really just going to be about PTSD and how it’s okay
to admit you have it ( when you have it ) and get some ‘help’.
Still no word yet whether Brendan did that… or whether he ‘opined’ on anything
else related to ‘Wildland Firefighting’ in his paid speech to the Academy ( and
the PUBLIC ) last night.
The article itself ( published 2 days ago )…
Grand Lake News
Article Title: Learning with Fire
Published: October 13, 2016 at 2:00 AM
http://www.grandlakenews.com/news/20161013/learning-with-fire
From the article…
——————————————————————————————
There will be no shortage of emergency personnel in Jay for next two weeks.
The fourth annual Wildland Fire and Incident Management Academy has returned once again to Jay, bringing firefighters and emergency responders from different regions of the United States.
The academy, which provides classes at the Jay Community Center as well as the Delaware County Fairgrounds, expects more than 100 to be attendance across all courses, with attendees from states such as Florida, California, Oregon, Idaho and as well as Quebec, Canada.
Originally, the academy was meant to certify members of Chloeta Fire, but recently Chloeta decided to expand outwards.
“The goal of the academy was to simply get our guys trained up in certifications,” said Choleta Fire Public Information Officer Alex Combow. ” But we were just doing it for our guys. Recently, we have been expanding to do if for other firefighters and emergency personnel.”
According to Combow, much of the purpose of the academy is not just the certifications, but the hands on training and networking with emergency responders from around the nation.
Chloeta Incident Commander Tim Stanton said he was encouraged by the wide variety of emergency responders attending the academy.
“We’re very excited about this year’s diverse attendance at the academy,” Stanton said. “As always, we truly appreciate our sponsors for making this happen and the community of Jay for hosting us again.”
Along with hands on experience, the academy provides course in firefighting tactics, incident management and planing as well as controlled burning classes for grass and forests. Certifications such as being certified to perform CPR are provided as well, according to Combow.
The academy also holds a silent auction throughout the entirety of the academy, with the profits benefitting the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
Although Chloeta was not able to provide the names of individual attendees, Combow said that the local Eucha Fire Department was represented.
Keynote speaker
The speaker for the academy’s keynote presentation this year will be author Brendan McDonough, who wrote “My Lost Brothers: The Untold Story by the Yarnell Hill Fire’s Lone Survivor”. McDonough, who now speaks with firefighters and emergency responders, is the lone survivor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots who responded to the Yarnell Hill Fire in 2013.
All other members of the group died during the fire.
And McDonough said he hopes that by sharing the trauma which he himself went through, he can help some of those at the academy.
“The biggest thing I enjoy right now is mental health,” McDonough said. “I share my experience as a guy with PTSD and depression as well as my loss and my trauma. I come full circle to where I went to counseling and I wrote the book. I share so people will know they are not alone and its ok to get help.”
The presentation, which will take place at 7 p.m. on Saturday, Oct. 14 at the Delaware County Fairgrounds, will be free and open to the public.
——————————————————————————————
I got all data on gmhs including Brendan and I scratch my head thinking looking at his total work history how does he become a paid speaker as I was at same fire and same area and yet I just hope one day the right mentor shows up to his life and show him the steps in a healthy way and healthy environment because to me it is like the big shots are tossing these dollars here and there to appease him since he is a young father but I am sorry but I hope he shifts his life out and away like I saw Eric Marsh’s friend KL just did….more people do what that person did than the bullshit would be done.
I am very very sorry HOW MUCH time and money you placed in for your training and certificates but you will be glad you made that decision. Yet in this economy some keep taking the paycheck ignorantly or full well knowing…back to juniper…my new bff that has even shifted me out of Sonnys daily…every day…day in and out…it sure takes it toll on me…my mom intervened and had some cancer center connect to me and I said best I will do is send my file to them but I am not putting poison in me because I am already taxed and I will think on surgery but no way am I gungho for air to hit it plus when I read the mri and stuff it seems minut and so I sent my file to that surgeon but I see and know what is going on except I have not decided how I want to go about things…I do for sure want a lymphatic cancer surgeon for their assessment only and then I just want to not think about zip but finally organize my garage…
Yes well Donut is cleaning up pretty good–gets 1500 for a lalk. Maybe he deserves it–he was hog washed, gog washed and buffaloed by the ones that are in the know and take–Let him enjoy his limelight since most of the wild land people know it is a joke.
What is not a joke was just now visiting Brent Yadon in the VA hospital. He is now in hospice, another victim of the heroic agent orange drop–tumors and respiratory problems. To boot you visit him and you will find him naming a lady behind him suffering badly from respiratory illness. Go to it men of the red hats–your local burnouts have caused another drop of thousands of gallons of agent orange retardant–you have no clue the ill effects you have caused on Yarnell human population. Or maybe you do but turn your eye and accept that you are heroes of the times.
When I see that soon half of Yarnell is to be wiped out by your experiment, I wonder what award you deserve.
Reply
Coming from Aquila where Joy and I visited the swap meet and picked up mail, we were commenting on seeing Phil Snyder, the helicopter medic pilot. It reminded me that Chuck Tidy lives directly behind Snyder’s residence about 3 or 4 hundred yards as the crow flies–except Chuck Tidy’s back yard got a nice crop dusting with the agent orange out of the Jumbo Jet. Well it was not but a few months after the fire that Chuck came down with his cancer. Joy said when she saw him the other day he was not looking too well.
We all know that internal cancers are anaerobic They dislike growing in a system that is getting ample oxygen supply. But of course with ammonia gas destroying lung capacity, already diminished lungs .now supply less oxygen to the blood–a cancer advancing environment. I do not know if Chuck is a smoker or was, but if so it was even more detrimental to him breathing all that chemical slop in his back yard. Chuck by the way has done very much in the way of helping arrange for statures, memorial parking lots, etc. concerning the GMHS crew and their heroic yet misguided attempts to forestall a wildfire that anyone (from where we stood on the two track and where they decided to go down into the death basin), could attest that even an army could not have made a difference in front of that king of wildfires.
Chuck himself is a helicopter pilot. But you can bet if you told him that because the FS, State, Local Fire Departments, and anyone else concerned with putting out wild fires, did negligently allow this fire to develope into a full scale disaster that killed those men. Further if you told him that those GMHS were misguided, not only by their immediate bosses but someone else above those, he would perhaps say like most, naw–Marsh was the total fault of those deaths. And then if you told him that because of this negligence those dumps of agent orange chemical retardant in his back yard, Yarnell’s back yard has had anything to do with his subsequent cancer, and the many people we have and do now witness with medical issues directly related to that chemical slop agent orange dump, he might say no, I believe the FS, State, and especially those Chemical companies that maintain the chemical dumps are not at all a factor in these medical problems. Well Chuck, I think you are another guinea pig, just as I who now has since the dumps have had 5 heart attacks, and one where it required a fast helicopter ride to get me to the hospital before I expired. Joy is now lined up for cancer surgery as well–lymphatic cancer since the fire.
So you see, we live here in Yarnell. I was resident here before the fire, and Joy and my observations made me conclude that this Agent Orange hidden Chemical soup is deadly to humans. Joy knows nearly every body that has passed since the fire. If you think the many deaths here since the fire, the many sick people ranging from respiratory problems, to cancer and heart attacks are a coincidence then you are not a cowboy. Too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. Maybe something Donut needs to know as well.
So now when the recent burn out during the Tenderfoot Fire caused more Jumbo Jet loads of retardant drop on the east side of Yarnell, I began to think we were living another Chernobyl only under a different poison. I am already radioactive–having been a Uranium miner for a number of years–now I doubt with all these chemicals I would need embalming. But I certainly did not, nor did the elderly here need their immune systems more compromised by the new dumps of hidden chemical so called inert Agent Orange Retardant.\
Hey, most of us have bat hides–some of us were damn good in math and Chemistry, and most of us have damn good common sense. When we see a small town decimated with fire, inundated with chemical slop, and then people sick and dying with a death rate only seen in Chernobyl type situations, then it is time to investigate, see how these chemicals truly do ruin lives and make people sick.
Now am I wanting to see anyone called a hero after I understand what they really caused–the death of 19, the cause of deadly dumps of agent orange retardants in our back yards, and the death and sickness of so many of the residents left here to try to recover after the fire. Hell no. Shame on these people for what they caused and may they hang their heads low, not take accolades!
Oh, for Donut, that too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence is “Hill Billy” wisdom. Something I considered lacking when we learned the GMHS crew risked going into the death basin and Donut was left to fare for his own life which was barely saved by luck of the Irish Gods and Frisby’s ATV.
Maybe I can help shed some light on the whole chloeta thing…. They are private contractors operating out of OK and I believe ID. They are certified by the National Wildfire Suppression Association, who worked their asses off to repair and elevate the usefulness of private contractors (mostly in the pacific northwest), by requiring strict NWCG standard or above of anyone being trained. They have training MOUs with some regions that allow them to run an open database of qualifications mimicking IQCS. (agencies have access to this database to check quals of contractors on fires). The instructor vetting is pretty steep (I haven’t found anyone yet who qualifies here – not because of lack of experience really, mostly lack of documentation – which is a pretty big problem out here). They also require DOL, DOT, ethics and workers comp stuff…. They are audited quite frequently by USFS and I would guess their quals system may actually be more secure and way more scrutinized than the agencies’…
However, having said all that… sure, there are always going to be those that game the system. I don’t know much about chloeta other than anecdotal stuff.. I was surprised by the donut stuff at their “academy”… but not really, i guess – a lot of folks swallowed the yarnell shit down here, hook line and sinker.
I am just starting a partnership with NWSA to train and maintain quals for Rx and youth… (and the lack of instructors here is slowing me down). But, I’d rather wait and find damn good instructors… we also are starting a quals committee (from outside the organization) that will do their own independent review of quals yearly. I would like to establish (or re-establish) some fucking integrity back into what seems to be now a corrupted, “Mo Money” (go woodsman, go woodsman *grin* ) system, and raise awareness about this stuff in the youth and Rx practitioners we handle.
We will charge for our training as well – but only to cover the cost to pay the instructor for each class and any workbooks, dvds etc needed. Free shit, is not really free shit (altho you talk to some agency guys about this and they get horrified by the fact that they would have to pay for a class – as opposed to the ever-giving taxpayer funding their rise thru the ranks…).
I know when I started this idea, word got out somehow and I was contacted by the AZ Academy trying to find out what the hell i was doing… not knowing them very well, I’m still not sure if it was scoping out some perceived competition or an offer to help and collaborate. Whichever, I’m incredibly pig-headed and I do things my way (good, bad or ugly)
as a new nonprofit, i don’t get paid yet, and I don’t expect to get rich ever… I’m just trying to get people on the ground burning in a safe, honest and earn your way manner… and so far (knocking my knuckle on my head) … NWSA should be a good partner in that, (and right now the only option for me to train those that aren’t part of an agency)
Like I said before, who the hell knows if it’ll work…
I think what you are doing is admirable… and necessary.
While I’m sure there ARE many ‘Academies’ out there that are trying to ‘do the right thing’ and make sure people are getting the PROPER training… I am also certain there are many others ‘out there’ that are NOT.
How many other ‘accidents waiting to happen’ are out there pulling down paychecks on a fireline… but they really do NOT have the proper training?
With regards to the AWIMA ‘snooping around’ your efforts… I would venture a guess that Tony Sciacca and the others who now run AWIMA are mostly just curious to try and find what ( if anything ) you are saying/teaching about the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.
I sure appreciate that WTKTT… and there are absolutely a whole lot out there that have the greed factor (including the structure departments all hopping on the bandwagon). Not to mention the ones holding ransoms on quals records… it can get pretty damn ugly once you start diving into it…
I do try to weave a lot of what I’ve learned here into my dealings with my little start up youth mitigation/rx crew and I have a pretty good eye and a well honed bullshit meter for the instructors i’m trying to recruit… it is an uphill battle… seems everyone wants to cheat… and potentially die…
Even if the Yarnell Tragedy didn’t happen… the ‘training issues’ would still be just as important… and the following things would still have ‘come to light’ circa November, 2015…
The Sacremento Bee
Article Title: Probe Shows Widespread Cheating at CalFire Academy
Published: November 30, 2015 – By Jon Ortiz
http://www.firehouse.com/news/12143470/probe-shows-widespread-cheating-at-cal-fire-academy
From the article…
——————————————————————-
Shannon Browne, who writes test materials for CalFire Academy cadets and records the scores, said that until earlier that year instructors routinely threw out results for questions that some cadets couldn’t answer. She said they repeatedly told her and other staff to add points to the scores of cadets to compensate. Browne estimated the changes probably affected scores on half the tests in recent years.
The orders, she told CHP Sgt. Daniel Webb and Lt. Ezery Beauchamp, made her uncomfortable because she believed they were wrong.
“Instead of saying, ‘Hey, we’re not teaching this correctly,’ and keeping ( the questions ) … they were just passing students,”
Browne said during a 70-minute interview recorded by the investigators…
“They were going to pass EVERYONE… and I know that this is a safety issue. This is someone’s safety and life, and other people are depending on them.
They ( the cadets ) should NOT be passed if they don’t know the material. I mean, these are critical basic skills.”
For more than a year now, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection has been climbing out from a scandal that started with the murder of an academy instructor’s mistress and ballooned into a wide-ranging investigation of academy activities. The agency since has dismissed or disciplined 15 employees for a range of behaviors, including drinking on duty, using state property to meet with prostitutes, and sexual harassment. It accepted the resignation of another.
——————————————————————
And if anyone thinks these ‘shenanigans’ and the ‘cheating’ are somehow confined to just CalFire Academy…. I have some land to sell you in the Everglades.
Followup…
Here is another article with a more in-depth look at all the ‘cheating’ that was going on for a long time at the CalFire Academy.
This article also confirms that this ‘Academy’ is ( of course ) the place where the local California STRUCTURAL firefighters were all ‘coming’ to get the classes they needed and start the certification process to be ‘dispatched’ on the juicy-overtime-pay WILDFIRES.
The Charlotte Observer
Article Title: Widespread cheating by instructors, cadets alleged at California’s fire training academy
Published: December 7, 2015.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article48453495.html
From that article…
————————————————————–
Nestled in the hills just outside Ione, Cal Fire’s 420-acre facility trains up to 500 people each year in cadres of up to 40 cadets, many of them seasoned professionals. Cadets in the basic training program receive classroom and field training over five weeks. Their book learning and real-world skills are tested on paper and in hands-on assessments throughout each course.
Among the ‘institutionalized’ CHEATING allegations:
– Instructors held Sunday night “reviews” that gave students the questions and answers for exams that would be administered the next morning.
– Controls were so loose that students passed copies of tests to one another with the correct answers filled in.
– Instructors routinely tossed questions and added points, without written policy to guide their decisions.
Shannon Browne, the test writer at the academy, was among those in CalFire who described it as a statement of priority, that moving bodies through the institution was more important than maintaining standards.
Some of the more-seasoned cadets come from local fire districts that enter service contracts with Cal Fire that convert their staff into state employees. Some, such as Cal Fire foresters whose jobs usually don’t include firefighting, must go through the academy to satisfy their standing as public safety employees.
More broadly, the California Highway Patrol (CHP) investigation interviews document concerns by top officials that the academy grappled with enforcing discipline, even as the department dispatched THOUSANDS of firefighters to battle epic blazes statewide. This year alone ( 2015 ), wildfires scorched more than 307,000 acres and killed six people.
————————————————————–
Saw Fernando santos on the weather channel last night describing hotshots-their equipment etc.
It appeared to be a Phoenix news reporter who was interviewing her.
That ‘feature piece’ first appeared on TWC on September 6, 2016… and they keep running it as ‘filler’ in the evenings when ( as usual ) everyone goes home and “The Weather Channel” isn’t really covering the “Weather” at all.
And as this ‘interview’ with Sam Champion proves… what Fernanda Santos is “best” at is “self-promotion”.
She reiterates he ‘claim’ that the only reason she wrote her book “The Fire Line” was to just do another look at who the people were who died… and she wasn’t the least bit interested in exploring WHY they died.
She was ( and remains ) fascinated that there were no ( as SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley refers to men trying to save themselves ) “rabbits”… and that none of the GM Hotshots even tried to do that.
Part 1 of that Sam Champion 23.5 show, which contains the interview with Santos…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB4YGawo3mY
NOTE: In her interview with Sam Champion… Fernanda Santos also reiterates just one of the many ridiculous claims she made in her book.
That it was ( lookout ) Brendan McDonough who ‘warned’ the other Granite Mountain Hotshots that the fire had changed direction.
Total Horseshit.
Brought up from down below in a thread that got nested too deep for ‘Reply’ buttons…
Reply to Diane lomas post on October 13, 2016 at 2:45 am
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> Is there any evidence that Darrell Willis was aware that granite mountain
>> was near Boulder springs ranch and possibly in need of air support during
>> the time that retardant drops were continuing to be carried out in peeples
>> valley when they were needed in Yarnell?
Just wanted to let you know I am not ignoring this question… but the answer to whether there is any solid ‘evidence’ regarding what Darrell Willis was ( or was NOT ) actually ‘aware of’ that afternoon is not a simple answer… and I am working on a longer response.
Even Darrell Willis’ actual ‘testimony’ to ADOSH investigators ( in TWO separate interviews with them ) is pretty much ‘contradicted’ by his own cellphone records, other people’s testimony, and even things Darrell Willis himself later said in front of cameras and to MEDIA groups like MILITARY.COM.
More later.
I found this statement by Elizabeth N. in an article by Brian Mockenhaupt:
“If Willis or whomever sent the now deceased crew out KNOWING that the resources were NOT in place to support that crew safely that is a big,big problem. It means that those 19 men were exposed to FAR more risks than they realized and presumably agreed to assume. They did not intend to assume the IRRATIONAL and normally preventable risks (e.g. the risk that the powers that be will unexpectedly deny or withdraw a normal level of support for the hotshots)”
Also this information that may or may not have come from the same source:
At 4:37 p.m. on June 30,2013 Bravo 33 flew in a west to east path to line up a retardant drop for one of the DC 10 air tankers —as Bravo 33 passed over the box canyon Marsh radioed the crew ” That’s exactly what we were looking for that’s where we want retardant”. At that point the wind shifted and the air tanker didn’t make the drop due to smoke obscurring the area.
If this statement is accurate does it could indicate that Granite Mountain may have thought that help was finally on the way for them?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on October 16, 2016 at 9:22 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Also this information that may or may not have come
>> from the same source:
—————————————————————————
At 4:37 p.m. on June 30, 2013 Bravo 33 flew in a west to east path to line up a retardant drop for one of the DC 10 air tankers —as Bravo 33 passed over the box canyon Marsh radioed the crew ” That’s exactly what we were looking for that’s where we want retardant”. At that point the wind shifted and the air tanker didn’t make the drop due to smoke obscurring the area.
——————————————————————————–
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> If this statement is accurate
It is not ( accurate ).
Ther FIRST half of the statement you just posted has never been proven to have actually happened as described… and the SECOND part of that statement you just posted ( the last sentence ) is complete horseshit.
Here is the FIRST part of the statement you posted, broken out into the ‘parts’ that are either ‘inaccurate’ and/or ‘never been proved’…
—————————————————————————–
At 4:37 p.m. on June 30, 2013 Bravo 33 flew in a west to east path to
line up a retardant drop for one of the DC 10 air tankers.
—————————————————————————–
The actual Air-To-Air channel radio recordings have never really supported the ‘directional’ parts of this statement.
VLAT 910 ( with pilot Kevin Hopf flying it ) was coming in directly from the SOUTH, and would end up flying past those ‘radio towers’ there near Yarnell as it came in flying SOUTH to NORTH. We hear Kevin Hopf SAY that is how he was ‘approaching’ the Yarnell area in the Air-To-Air radio channel captures.
Thomas French ( in ‘Bravo 33’ ) wanted to use VLAT 910 for a drop in one of the only parts of the area where it was still safe to do so… because French had wasted so much time getting to that side of the fire.
The ‘target’ was to be against the EAST flank of the fire, up there to the NORTH of Yarnell proper and just beyond that U-Store-It facility on the NORTH end of town.
The only way anyone could have seen ‘Bravo 33’ flying from ‘west to east’ was ( perhaps ) a brief moment when Thomas French was trying to ‘get in front’ of VLAT 910 as it, in turn, was coming in from the SOUTH.
There was never any ‘drop’ being ‘lined up’ in a WEST to EAST direction in this timeframe.
—————————————————————————-
…as Bravo 33 passed over the box canyon…
—————————————————————————-
Again.. the Air-To-Air radio channel captures do NOT support this.
There is nothing to indicate that ‘Bravo 33’ ever flew ‘over the box canyon’ itself in any timeframe prior to the emergency radio calls from Jesse Steed.
French was just trying to make some drops against the EAST flank of the fire to the NORTH of Yarnell proper… because that’s the only place where it was now ‘safe’ to make any drops.
—————————————————————————
Marsh radioed the crew ” That’s exactly what we were looking for that’s where we want retardant”.
—————————————————————————
That is also ‘word for word’ what the original SAIR reported Marsh saying… but it has never really been proven that this happened at all… or… if ‘someone’ actually said something like that in that timeframe… that it really was DIVSA Eric Marsh saying it.
Example: There was an actual SEAT drop that DID take place there on the NORTH side of Yarnell at exactly 4:35 PM. It remains ‘possible’ that whoever was saying “That’s where we want the retardant” had simply just witnessed THAT retardant drop… and they were simply informing ‘Air Attack’ that was a good location to CONTINUE making more ‘drops’.
The real problem with this statement about Eric Marsh himself saying “That’s where we want the retardant” over the “Air-To-Ground” channel circa 4:37 PM is that there has only ever been just ONE source for it… John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’.
That radio transmission ( supposedly made by Eric Marsh ) would have been over the Air-To-Ground raio channel… one of the most popular and most-listened-to radio channels on ANY fire incident. Even Law Enforcement officers listen to the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel because “that’s where the action is”.
Yet NO ONE ( other than John Burfiend ) has ever said they heard this radio call on that ‘popular’ A2G radio channel.
Example: DPS Officer Eric Tarr, one of the crewmembers of DPS Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’, had his ‘ears glued’ to the Air-To-Ground radio channel during this entire timeframe In his meticulous and detailed ‘Officer report’ following the Incident… he faithfully describes the ‘Air To Ground’ radio traffic he had been hearing in this timeframe. We KNOW he was ‘accurately’ recalling what he heard because it was the A2G radio transmission he mentioned hearing about “We are heading to a RANCH we have in sight” that he recalled accurately ‘in the air’ while ‘Ranger 58’ was searching for ‘Granite Mountain’. It was Officer Tarr’s accurate recollection of hearing THAT transmission on the A2G channel that actually allowed ‘Ranger 58’ pilot Clifford Brunsting to fly the ‘right line’ from the ‘saddle’ to the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and FIND the deployment site.
But Officer Eric Tarr NEVER mentions hearing anything on the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel that even remotely resembles what the SAIR said ‘John Burfiend’ said he heard.
Ditto for a LOT of other ‘testimony’ regarding people who WERE listening to the ‘Air To Ground’ channel in this timeframe.
NO ONE recalls hearing this A2G transmission that the SAIR said ‘John Burfiend’ said he heard.
It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
It just means this ( supposed ) 4:37 PM radio transmission from ‘Eric Marsh’ remains ‘unverified’… and it’s questionable whether it really happened at all.
Until someone ELSE ( other than just John Burfiend ) comes out and says they heard the same transmission on one of the most-listened-to radio channels on any fire… then it remains ( questionable? ) single-source ‘testimony’… and that ‘single-source’ could have been either mistaken or mis-remembering what they thought they heard… or WHO they thought was saying it.
And here is that ( last ) part of the statement you just posted that is complete horseshit…
——————————————————————————–
At that point the wind shifted and the air tanker didn’t make the drop due to smoke obscurring the area.
———————————————————————————
That is not what happened at all.
Thomas French WAS ‘lining up a drop’ for VLAT 910 ( with pilot Kevin Hopf flying it ) in this timeframe… but it was to the NORTH of Yarnell proper… in that area near the U-Store-It Facility… where the ‘air was still clear’ and one of the only areas left where it was SAFE to ‘fly a line and do a drop’.
The Air-To-Air channel recordings indicate they ( Thomas French and Kevin Hopf ) had every intentions of carryng through with that planned drop, circa 4:39 PM, and no ‘wind shift’ or ‘smoke issues’ were happening to cause them to ‘abort’ it.
The REASON they ( Thomas French and Kevin Hopf ) did NOT complete that drop is because of Jesse Steed’s emergency radio call, at 4:39.
The Air-To-Air radio captures indicate that it was Thomas French who informed Kevin Hopf that “plans have changed” and that they now had “an emergency situation”, and that is why they ‘aborted’ the planned retardant drop near the U-Store-It facility.
French said “we’ve got some people deployed but we don’t know where they are”, and immediately requested VLAT 910 Pilot Kevin Hopf to set up for ‘Level 6’ retardant drop in case there was a chance to help the men in trouble.
Kevin Hopf said he would do that… and he also told French he would now just stick right on French’s tail and be ready to do whatever might be required.
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> does it could indicate that Granite Mountain
>> may have thought that help was finally on the way for them?
Well… if the statement you posted ( and which also appears in the SAIR ) IS anywhere near ‘accurate’… then the answer to your question is YES.
What it *could* ‘indicate’ is that Eric Marsh ( and others? ) were there on the ground near Yarnell and desperately EXPECTING the arrival of Air Support there on that end of the fire… and probably HAD been expecting it since 3:50 PM when OPS1 Todd Abel is recorded in a vide telling Eric Marsh “We’ll get some Air Support down there as SOON as possible.”
But I have always ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) thought that even if Eric Marsh ( or someone ) actually said “That’s where WE want the retardant” at 4:37 PM… that the “WE” part of that simply meant the generic “WE” of ‘fire command’ and was NOT a specific reference to “Granite Mountain”.
In other words… Eric Marsh might have still simply had his ‘fire command’ DIVSA hat on, and when he might have said “That’s were WE want it”… he was speaking as DIVSA and where he thought a drop might be best to help protect ‘the town’ itself.
There is still absolutely no evidence that, prior to the 4:39 emergency radio calls, that the resource known as ‘Granite Mountain’ had requested ‘Air Support’ for THEMSELVES.
But when Jesse Steed finally got around to making that emergency radio call to ‘Air Attack’ at 4:39 PM… there is little doubt that, at that point, the reason he WAS calling them was to ‘request Air Support’ at THEIR location out in the canyon.
Why else would Jesse Steed have been ‘Breaking in on Arizona 16’ at all, if not to actually REQUEST ‘Air Support’ for GM’s predicament?
Did Jesse Steed just want to talk with John Burfiend to get the score of the Jets game?
No way.
Jesse Steed was ( at 4:39 PM ) now having a full-blown life-threatening EMERGENCY, and he KNEW it was time to tell ‘Air Attack’ about it and see if there was any chance they could do anything at all to help them out there in that blind-box canyon.
But it was all “way too late”.
French, Burfiend and Cross ( in Bravo 33 ) were “way too late” getting down to that end of the fire to make any difference with anything. The smoke column had already started ‘laying down’ and covering the ground before they even got down there… and Jesse Steed was also “way too late” with his emergency radio calls to ‘Air Support’. He and Granite Mountain only had a few minutes left to live before he even bothered to “Break in” on the A2G channel.
** OTHER VERSIONS OF THE SAME ‘EVENT’
The statement you posted closely matches what appeared in the original SAIR… and was also then ‘re-worded’ and appeared in the ADOSH WFA investigation report…
From PDF page 33 of the original SAIR document…
——————————————————————————–
At 1637, ASM2 flies a drop path for a VLAT north of Yarnell west to east and apparently over DIVS A, turning northward to avoid high ground at the end of Yarnell. DIVS A, seeing the flight, calls and calmly says, “[ASM2], Division Alpha, That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.” ASM2 again circles the south end of the fire above Yarnell to line up a final flight path for a tanker drop. The aircraft crew is in the middle of a discussion with OPS1 on the air-to-ground frequency and the pilot is talking to the VLAT on the air-to-air frequency when an overmodulated and static-filled transmission comes over the air-to-ground frequency at 1639:
——————————————————————————–
The ADOSH WFA ( Wildland Fire Associates ) investigation report described the same timeframe.
NOTE: ADOSH and the WFA investigators were never allowed to actually interview any of the THREE men who were flying in ‘Bravo 33’ that afternoon ( Thomas French, John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross ) so it appears the WFA investigators just ‘re-worded’ what was printed in the SAIR and were just simply ‘accepting’ the SAIR’s assertion(s) as ‘fact’…
From PDF page 16 of the ADOSH / WFA report…
——————————————————————————–
At 1637, ASM2 flew a drop path for a VLAT north of Yarnell from west to east. This drop went over DIVS A location at the time. DIVS A communicated with ASM2 confirming the drop path. ASM2 circled the south end of the fire above Yarnell to line up a final flight path for a tanker drop. At 1639, ASM2 was in the middle of a discussion with Field OCS on the air-to-ground frequency when an over-modulated and static-filled transmission came over the air-to-ground frequency.
——————————————————————————–
SIDENOTE: Notice that BOTH the SAIR and WFA report claim that OPS1 Todd Abel was the one who was talking to John Burfiend on the A2G channel just prior to Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call. That would be the discussion we hear the tail end of at the start of Aaron Hulburd’s original ‘Helmet Cam’ video that captured the deployment radio traffic. The one where Burfiend ends the conversation ( with someone? ) by saying “We’ll do the best we can… but it’s gonna be rough on us with that valley and the smoke”.
But in HIS ‘testimony’ to ADOSH… OPS1 Todd Abel NEVER mentions having been the one having that conversation with John Burfiend just seconds before Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call.
So who WAS it, really, that we hear John Burfiend ‘finishing’ that conversation about ‘Air Support’ objectives with just seconds before Jesse Steed’s first emergency call hits the A2G channel at 4:39 PM?
If it was NOT OPS1 Abel ( as the SAIR and WFA said it was )… then WHO was it, really?
If DIVSA Eric Marsh really did “call” John Burfiend on the A2G channel at 4:37 PM ( just 120 seconds before Jesse’s first MAYDAY )… and it really was Mash saying something like “That’s where we want the retardant”… then it stands to reason that John Burfiend might have ‘responded’ to DIVSA regarding that ‘Air Support objective’… and what we hear at the start of the ‘Helmet Cam’ video is simply the END of that conversation Burfiend was having with Marsh at that time ( about Air Support ).
But John Burfiend has NEVER admitted that he called the person ‘back’ who had suddenly radioed him and said “That’s it. That’s where we want the retardant”.
John Burfiend himself has never admitted WHO he was talking to, and finishing that conversation with, that is heard at the start of the ‘Helmet Cam’ video… just seconds before Steed’s first MAYDAY call.
Thank you for helping to sort this out WTKTT
I reread the article in the Atlantic Monthly by Brian Mockenhaupt.
Confirmed that the statement possibly by Eric Marsh (something to the effect that that is where we want the retardant) was in Brian’s article but couldn’t find any statement by Elizabeth Nowicki as I stated. I was reading several comments and articles on the same day and must have confused the information.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on October 16, 2016 at 9:06 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I found this statement by Elizabeth N. in an article by Brian Mockenhaupt:
>>
>> “If Willis or whomever sent the now deceased crew out KNOWING
>> that the resources were NOT in place to support that crew safely
>> that is a big,big problem. It means that those 19 men were exposed
>> to FAR more risks than they realized and presumably agreed to
>> assume. They did not intend to assume the IRRATIONAL and normally
>> preventable risks (e.g. the risk that the powers that be will unexpectedly
>> deny or withdraw a normal level of support for the hotshots)”
Do you have a link to that article?
Regarding this statement…
“If Willis or whomever sent the now deceased crew out KNOWING that
the resources were NOT in place to support that crew safely that is a big, big problem.”
It’s safe to say that SPGS2 Darrell Willis was NOT the one who either ‘gave’ Granite
Mountain their ‘assignment’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013… or that Willis was the one
who (quote) “sent them out”.
The ‘whomever’ was more like OPS1 Todd Abel, current Arizona Forestry IC Russ Shumate,
and inbound Type 2 SHORT Team IC ‘Roy Hall’.
While it is a FACT that it was Darrell Willis himself who told Marsh, during a cellphone
call that morning circa 6:00 AM, that there was no ‘anchor point’ and that Willis told
Marsh “we’ve got to get an anchor on this thing”… it was actually OPS1 Todd Abel
who ‘agreed’ with Eric Marsh that they “had to get an anchor on this thing” while the
two of them were looking out at the fire from the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station
during that 7:00 AM briefing there.
OPS1 Todd Abel and Eric Marsh ( together ) pretty much ‘agreed’ that was what
Granite Mountain should go out there to do… and according to OPS1 Abel.. they
‘ran this by’ both current IC ‘Russ Shumate’ and incomong IC ‘Roy Hall’… and
they both also ‘agreed’ that would be a proper assignment for Granite Mountain.
As for <i)"resources were NOT in place to supprt that crew safely"… I’m not
sure what the person who said that actually means.
Sending a Type 1 Hotshot crew out to a ridge ( that can actually be SEEN while just
standing in the Yarnell Hill Fire Station parking lot ) to make sure the current ‘heel’ of
the fire becomes a solid ‘anchor point’ is a perfectly legitmate ‘assignment’ for any
‘Hotshot’ crew. That’s supposed to be something they know how to do… as a
“self-contained’ resource.
And there WAS ‘Air Support’ that morning as well to help them do that.
Yes… Eric Marsh and Air Attack Rory Collins ‘disagreed’ on how to accomplish
achieving that ‘anchor point’… and Collins ‘dumped’ retardant all over Marsh’s
indirect burnouts and forced Marsh to ‘go direct’… but as far as ‘support’ goes
I don’t think it can be said there were no “resources in place” to ‘support’ them.
By 10:30 AM… there was the second of three Hothshot crews that had been
ordered also ‘in place’ out there in the Sesame Clearing area. The Blue Ridge
Hotshots were supposedly ‘assigned’ to DIVSA Eric Marsh… but they ended up
with no real assignment until later in the day and spent the rest of the morning
and most of the afternoon just sitting around by their Crew Carriers doing
nothing at all.
It was not known until later in the day that the THIRD Hotshot Crew that was
supposed to also be there ( The Arroyo Hotshots ) were not comign at all
because just one of their ‘support’ vehicles was having a mechanical problem.
There was also PLENTY ( acres and acres ) of SAFE BLACK up there where
Granite Mountain was ‘assigned’ to work that morning. You could ALSO clearly
‘see’ this from the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station, before they were even
given their assignment that morning.
So I have no idea what the ‘risks’ are ( regarding the intial assignment itself )
that this person is referring to.
The RISK that Granite Mountain willingly ‘assumed’ only came later in the
day… when Jesse Steed finally ‘gave in’ to Eric Marsh’s insistence that he
bring the GM Crew OUT of the ‘safe black’ and perform that risky hike
to the Boulder Springs Ranch… with no lookout… and down into a blind box
canyon full of explosive, unburned fuel… within 1/2 mile of a dynamic
wind-driven, spotting wildfire.
THAT was ‘the risk’ that turned out to be the last one they would ever take.
We KNOW now that Eric Marsh was the one who was ‘urging’ ( indeed, most likely ordering ) Jesse Steed to undertake THAT ‘risk’.
What still remains to be discovered is WHO ( if anyone ) might have been the one(s) also ‘urging’ ( indeed, perhaps ordering ) Eric Marsh himself to take the actions he did that afternoon.
WTKTT,
I believe that I found the article in Atlantic Monthly June 2014 “Fire On the Mountain” by Brian Mockernhaupt
I have reread this article and can’t find the statement from Elizabeth N. I am now retracing my steps in what I was reading on that day to find it.
Whoever made that statement… the FIRST part is no more ‘accurate’ than what appeared in both the SAIR and ADOSH / WFA report(s). That ‘report’ about DIVSA Eric Marsh just ‘calling’ John Burfiend ‘out of the blue’ on the A2G channel at 4:37 PM ( just 120 seconds before Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call on the same A2G channel ) has never been ‘verified’.
The ‘source’ for that ‘statement’ ( John Burfiend ) remains only ONE person out of EVERYONE who was also listening to that same radio channel at that same time.
…and the second part about why John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ and Kevin Hopf flying VLAT 910 ‘gave up’ on that drop they were planning circa 4:39 PM is just plain wrong. It was NOT because of ( another ) ‘sudden wind shift’ or because of the ‘smoke’. That ‘drop’ was aborted because of the Granite Mountain emergency radio traffic hitting the A2G channel at 4:39 PM.
I was just curious to see the original article and see what ‘else’ is being claimed as ‘fact’ when it is no such thing.
I am still searching for documentation as to where i found this quote by Eliabeth Nowicki.
If anyone knows the source of this quote please post on IM-apparently it is NOT in Brian’s Atlantic Monthly article.
Tonight is the night that Brendan McDonough addresses all the attendees at the annual Mid-South Wildland Firefighting Academy.
http://www.joplinglobe.com/news/local_news/survivor-of-yarnell-hill-fire-to-speak-at-firefighting-academy/article_5881c378-acbc-5a1f-8904-ad2a3cb16f85.html
There is still no good report(s) regarding what McDonough actually SAYS when he makes these ‘speeches’. Maybe this time there will be some good report about it.
WTKTT,
Thank you for the update.
The actual ‘Home Page’ for this year’s “Mid-South Wildland Firefighting Academy”…
http://www.chloetafire.com/services/training/mswfima/
The top-level photograph for the page ( which contains the complete schedule of CLASSES for this year’s Wildland Firefighting Academy ) is simply a photograph of “Brendan McDonough”.
Underneath his photo is a HUGE photo of his for-profit ‘Book” ( which was actually written by professional author Stephan Talty, of “Captain Phillips” fame ).
The PUBLIC ‘Facebook Page’ for this year’s “Mid-South Wildland Firefighting Academy” is here…
https://www.facebook.com/Mid-South-Wildland-Fire-and-Incident-Management-Academy-1367704333245406/
And they have ‘advertised’ Brendan McDnough’s ‘Keynote Address’ with the following post ( yesterday )…
—————————————————————————-
Come get your #fire hats on tomorrow and check out our keynote speaker, Brendan McDonough, at 7:00 PM located at the Delaware County Fairgrounds. He’ll be speaking about his experiences in the wildland fire field and over his book “My Lost Brothers”. There is no entry fee, attendance is free! #author #MidSFireAcademy2016 #firefighter
—————————————————————————–
“speaking about his experiences in the wildland fire field”
I hope someone ‘records’ what he says.
By the way.. on September 29, 2016… the PUBLIC Facebook page for this year’s “Mid-South Wildland Firefighting Academy” announced that this year’s ‘Keynote Address’ by Brendan McDonough was NOT just for the people paying money to attend the ‘classes’ and “Learn about Wildland Firefighting”.
They made sure everyone knew that McDonough’s ‘speech’ ( tonight ) was also OPEN TO THE PUBLIC…
————————————————————————
Brendan McDonough, sole survivor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots from the Yarnell Hill incident will be speaking at the #MidSFireAcademy2016 on Oct. 14 at 7 pm at the Delaware County Fair Grounds in Jay, Oklahoma. This talk is open to the public and we hope you will join us. #compassionspreadslikewildfire Wildland Firefighter Foundation
————————————————————————-
The actual BROCHURE for this year’s “Mid-South Wildland Fire and INcident Management Academy” that has been ‘distributed’ to all paying students is sitting at the following link…
http://www.chloetafire.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/4th-Annual-MSWFIMA-Course-Catalog.pdf
Three things to notice in this offical ‘Academy Brochure’…
1. Classes range in price from a low of $114 ( to become a certified Wildland Fire ATV Operator ) to a mid-range of $258 for classes like “S-290 Intermediate Wildland Fire Behavior”, to a high-range of $639 for an “EMR” rating ( Emergency Medical Responder ).
2. As is usually the case with theses put-together “Wildland Fire and Incident Managment Academies”… there is absolutely NOTHING in the ‘official’ documentation and/or course schedules being handed out which gives you even a hint who the actual “instructors” might be for any of the classes offered… or what THEIR ‘training’ and/or ‘experience’ might actually be.
3. In the ‘Sponsorship’ section at the bottom of the official BROCHURE… the attendees are being asked to additionally contribute whatever they can to help offset the $1500 ‘Speaker fee’ being ‘charged’ by Brendan McDonough for his single ‘speech’ to the ‘Academy’.
to a high-range of $639 for an “EMR” rating ( Emergency Medical Responder ).
Whoops. Typo above.
Last sentence was just a ‘ghost sentence’ that got left in the post.
Post above was meant to just END with…
3. In the ‘Sponsorship’ section at the bottom of the official BROCHURE… the attendees are being asked to additionally contribute whatever they can to help offset the $1500 ‘Speaker fee’ being ‘charged’ by Brendan McDonough for his single ‘speech’ to the ‘Academy’.
Chloeta Fire:
“chloetafire is the nations premier wildland and prescribed fire consultancy.”
Umm…if you say so then I guess it’s true…
“CHLOETA is an international leader in environmental and emergency services including wildland fire, aviation, natural resources, and incident management.”
Never heard of them…
Hey ‘Chloeta,’ 2 things:
1. Get the fuck outta here, ya money grubbing bastards
2. For the amount of $$ you’re shaking down (raping) your students for each course, why don’t you go ahead & cover Brendan’s speaking fee instead of asking them to ‘donate’ to that too
Tapping into the demand of firefighter’s to gain bonafide NWGC red-card qualifications & their taskbooks signed off can be quite lucrative, huh?
$658 for a student to gain status as an ‘EMR Emergency Medical Responder?’ Get the fuck outta here… LMFAO I suppose there’s no shortage of municipal firefighter/EMT’s that want to go on ‘deployments’ after they find out the AD pay rates for you to charge so much…gotta get your pay-to-play $$ afterall. LMFAO! Do you tell your students after the class that all they needed is S130/190, pass the fitness test, be sponsored by an actual wildfire agency (state or fed), and have their EMS quals they already have & they’re good to go – without forking over $658? LMFAO!
Hell, I might pay one of these guys $658 to NOT show up on a complex wildfire so I wouldn’t have to deal with them on the fireline! It might be worth it!!!
Any ‘Active Shooter’ classes at this year’s academy?
Mo money, Mo Money!, MO MONEY!!!!!!
L M F A O!!!
The preceding was solely the opinion of Woodsman. No warranty of it’s accuracy is expressed or implied. lmfao
Woodsman
Rely to Woodsman post on October 15, 2016 at 3:32 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Chloeta Fire:
>>
>> “chloetafire is the nations premier wildland and
>> prescribed fire consultancy.”
>>
>> Umm…if you say so then I guess it’s true…
Exactly. They even say all their classes are ‘NATIONALLY CERTIFIED’… but where is the actual PROOF of that?
‘NATIONALLY CERTIFIED’… by WHO?
Like most of these “RED-CARD VENDING MACHINE” Academies… they treat the actual ‘identities’ of their ‘instructors’ as if that was all some fucking military secret… or almost as if they are AFRAID to ever say WHO their ‘instructors’ actually are.
It can be ‘assumed’ that when you pay your money and show up for a ‘class’… that the ‘instructor’ will actually be QUALIFIED to even be teaching that ‘class’.. but where is the opportunity to VERIFY that beforehand?
The other ‘scary’ part of these “RED-CARD VENDING MACHINE” Academies is also the way they get away with treating the ‘Academy’ itself as if it were an actual Wildland Fire ‘Incident’… and the ‘organization’ that runs it is ‘filled’ with positions like ‘Incident Commander’ ( IC ), ‘Operations’ ( OPS ), ‘Division Supervisors’ ( DIVS )… yada… yada…
…and the people fulfilling those ‘roles’ at the ‘Academy’ can actually get ‘credit’ towards those position ‘taskbooks’ for doing that.
This Mid-South Academy thing is no exception.
Their ‘Facebook page’ has photos showing they treat the whole thing like an ‘Incident’ with an ICP and OPS people and whatnot ‘running’ the classes.
Eric Marsh had only about 5 actual ‘evaluations’ in his completed taskbook for the position of ‘Division Supervisor’ that allowed him to be fulfilling that position on Yarnell Hill Fire.
And one of those ‘successful evaluations’ for the position of ‘Division Supervisor’ in his taskbook was simply because he ‘played’ that role once at the Arizona Wildland Fire and Incident Management Academy ( which, by the way, he himself started out of the living room of his trailer in Prescott with one of his former wives ).
It’s a real ‘racket’…. this whole ‘Academy’ thing.
Surely there is a BETTER way for people to get the ‘training’ they SHOULD have before being allowed to show up on a fireline.and/or ‘manage an Incident’.
“CHLOETA is an international leader in environmental and emergency services including wildland fire, aviation, natural resources, and incident management.”
Never heard of them…
Hey ‘Chloeta,’ 2 things:
1. Get the fuck outta here, ya money grubbing bastards
2. For the amount of $$ you’re shaking down (raping) your students for each course, why don’t you go ahead & cover Brendan’s speaking fee instead of asking them to ‘donate’ to that too
Tapping into the demand of firefighter’s to gain bonafide NWGC red-card qualifications & their taskbooks signed off can be quite lucrative, huh?
$658 for a student to gain status as an ‘EMR Emergency Medical Responder?’ Get the fuck outta here… LMFAO I suppose there’s no shortage of municipal firefighter/EMT’s that want to go on ‘deployments’ after they find out the AD pay rates for you to charge so much…gotta get your pay-to-play $$ afterall. LMFAO! Do you tell your students after the class that all they needed is S130/190, pass the fitness test, be sponsored by an actual wildfire agency (state or fed), and have their EMS quals they already have & they’re good to go – without forking over $658? LMFAO!
Hell, I might pay one of these guys $658 to NOT show up on a complex wildfire so I wouldn’t have to deal with them on the fireline! It might be worth it!!!
Any ‘Active Shooter’ classes at this year’s academy?
Mo money, Mo Money!, MO MONEY!!!!!!
L M F A O!!!
The preceding was solely the opinion of Woodsman. No warranty of it’s accuracy is expressed or implied. lmfao
Whoops… screwed that one up above.
Second half of ‘Reply’ was just a reprint of your original comments ( again ).
I checked… there was no ‘Active Shooter’ class ( that would have been a big money maker, probably )… but there WAS a ‘workshop’ that teaches you how to throw the napalm ping-pong balls out of a helicopter.
Hey WTKTT: Ya got a Pacer membership? I want to see what this civil case is about:
Fine v. Chloeta # 4:13-cv-00743
Thanks!
Woodsman
business partnership gone bad…
http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=tulsa&cmid=2472193
Reply to Woodsman post on
October 15, 2016 at 3:47 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Hey WTKTT: Ya got a Pacer membership?
Nope.
SIDENOTE: I still think it is fascinating to that everyone acknowledges that the the PUBLIC has a right to access electronic Court Records ( Hence the PACER acronym… “Public Access to Court Electronic Records” )… but you still must have an ‘account’ in order to actually access those very records.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I want to see what this civil case is about:
>>
>> Fine v. Chloeta # 4:13-cv-00743
wildfire65 is right… it was a ‘breach of contract’ civil dispute on the part of ‘business partners’ in this CHLOETA thing.
But here is another interesting ‘Civil Action’ involving CHLOTEA.
It involves them SUING the actual US Forestry Service in another alleged ‘breach of contract’ issue.
This lawsuit was only 2 years ago… in 2014… and was filed based on things that happened between CHLOETA and US Forestry in 2010.
This case was ‘dismissed’ for ‘lack of jurisdiction’… but a fascinating thing was ‘established’ in the ‘pleadings’ for this case which, apparently, got no attention in the press.
US Forestry got out of the lawsuit by declaring ( in writing ) that these VIPR ( Virtual Incident Procurement ) agreements that THEY ( US Forestry ) enter into with ‘private contractors’ aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.
CHLOETA was ‘suing’ US Forestry for $39,275.30 in “lost revenue’ because they said their ‘enignes’ weren’t called out on some particular fire the way they thought they were supposed to be according to their US Forestry ‘VIPR’ agreeement.
The ‘Case Summary also says that this CHLOETA, LLC organization is actually a “small, disadvantaged Native-American owned business”
http://www.cbca.gsa.gov/files/decisions/2014/HYATT_08-21-14_3618__CHLOETA_FIRE,_LLC.pdf
From the Case Summary…
—————————————————
Background
On May 18, 2010, respondent ( US Forestry ) entered into a Virtual Incident Procurement (VIPR) agreement with Chloeta, a small-disadvantaged Native American-owned business, for the provision of wildland fire engines as needed to respond to incidents in the US Forest Service’s southern region and throughout the nation.
The VIPR agreement is a type of basic purchasing agreement (BPA) that was created by respondent ( US Forestry ) to secure the appropriate mix of the resources needed when a fire incident occurs. The VIPR agreement implements a pre-planning process whereby the US Forest Service identifies, evaluates and ranks potential suppliers and equipment prior to the fire season.
———————————————————-
So US Forestry got out from under this lawsuit by arguing that the very VIPR ‘agreements’ that THEY ‘invented’ and started signing with ‘private contractors’ all over the country don’t really mean jack shit.
And the JUDGE in this case agreed with that argument.
But regarding this whole “Mid-South Wildland Fire and Incident Management Academy” thing… it seems like it is a ‘poster child’ for this ‘turnstyle training’ issue.
ANYONE ( it seems ) can just ‘fire up’ one of these things and SAY they are ‘Nationally Certified’ and whatnot… and then it’s just ( literally ) a “RED-CARD VENDING MACHINE”.
Show up, pay whatever THEY think the ‘ratings’ are worth… and you get your RED-CARD qualifications.
Bada-bing… bada boom. No fuss, no muss.
Just ‘walk through the turnstyle’ and your ‘qualifications’ are handed to you.
What I want to know is… does anyone ever FAIL any of these classes?
Do they EVER actually just evaluate someone during the class and say ( at the end )… “you have not demonstrated that you deserve the red-card qualifications so you are not getting them”.
I doubt it.
And the wheels on the bus go round and round.
People who just ‘paid their money’ and went to some other “RED-CARD VENDING MACHINE” in the past eventually turn into the actual ( paid ) instructors at some OTHER “RED-CARD VENDING MACHINE” somewhere else.
It boggles my mind that even though the entire PURPOSE of these “Academies” is to achieve RED-CARD ratings that you don’t currently have… that in MOST cases… you never know WHO is going to be teaching any particular ‘class’ ( and what THEIR ‘ratings’ and ‘experience’ and ‘qualifications’ actually are ) until AFTER you have paid your money and shown up for the classes.
If you show up and discover the ‘instructor’ who is supposed to give you YOUR ‘RED CARD’ rating is a moron and/or not really qualified to be teaching that class at all… do you get your money back?
The Joplin Globe
Article Title: Survivor of Yarnell Hill fire to speak at firefighting academy
Published: 23 hrs ago
http://www.joplinglobe.com/news/local_news/survivor-of-yarnell-hill-fire-to-speak-at-firefighting-academy/article_5881c378-acbc-5a1f-8904-ad2a3cb16f85.html
This article itself points out that the “Mid-South Wildland Firefighting Academy” is, in fact, NATIONALLY CERTIFIED and ‘students’ are ‘attending’ from all over the USA and from Canada to become “Certified to Fight Wildland Fires”.
It also make sure to point out to the public that the ‘celebrity status’ for the ‘Keynote Speaker’ for this ‘Nationally Certified Academy’ is now tied to BOTH his for-profit BOOK… and the MOVIE thing…
——————————————————————————————-
JAY, Okla. — Brendan McDonough will speak at the fourth annual Mid-South Wildland Fire Academy at 7 p.m. Friday at the Delaware County Fairgrounds.
McDonough is a wildland firefighter and a survivor of Arizona’s Yarnell Hill fire, which claimed the lives of 19 firefighters in 2013.
McDonough grew up in Prescott, Arizona, and worked with best-selling author Stephan Talty on his book about the tragedy, “My Lost Brothers: The Untold Story by the Yarnell Hill Fire’s Lone Survivor.”
McDonough is also working on a film about the 19 firefighters and himself.
The fire academy, which is being held through Oct. 22 at the Delaware County Fairgrounds, 38267 U.S. Highway 59, is offering 24 NATIONALLY CERTIFIED courses for wildland firefighters and all-hazards emergency responders. Participants are coming from around the country as well as from Canada. The two-week training academy allows attendees to network with other emergency response personnel while gaining hands-on training.
——————————————————————————————-
**
** PARK RANGER FOR GRANITE MOUNTAIN PUBLIC PARK NOW HIRED?
The link to that PUBLIC ‘job listing’ for a $12 per hour Park Ranger for the as-yet-to-be-opened-to-the-public ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ now no longer shows the ‘job listing’ itself and only says…
“This position is no longer available”…
The job was only first ‘advertised’ a few days ago… and the listing was ‘closed’ sometime today… so it was only there for about 72 hours.
Arizona State Parks Department – PUBLIC Job listing – Posted October 7, 2016…
https://azstatejobs.azdoa.gov/ltmprod/CandidateSelfService/lm?_ln=JobSearchResults&_r=0&bto=JobPosting&dataarea=ltmprod&name=PostingDisplay&service=form&webappname=CandidateSelfService&HROrganization=1&JobRequisition=25836&JobPosting=3&context.session.key.HROrganization=1&context.session.key.JobBoard=EXTERNAL&context.session.key.Source=INDEED
All it says now is ‘position filled’.
‘Arizona Parks’ must have agreed to CREATE this new ‘Ranger postion’ ( and agreed to pay the yearly salary ) so that the COST for this ‘Ranger’ would NOT have to come from the funds available to this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.
It is also highly likely the actual DECISION to suddenly hire a ‘Park Ranger’ for this PUBLIC Park whose own website still says there will NOT be any ‘Rangers’ probably took place at the last meeting of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’… back on August 17, 2016.
But the PUBLIC still cannot SEE the decisions made by this PUBLIC Board at that August 17, 2016 PUBLIC meeting… because the Board remains in violation of Arizona’s Open Meetings laws and has still NOT published the ‘minutes’ from their last PUBLIC meeting.
Maybe the members of this ‘Board’ actually DID read Gary Olson’s letter to State Representative ( and Yarnell Memorial Board member ) Karen Fann.
Gary Olson is the one who pointed out to her how ‘likely’ it will always be that ‘statues’ ( especially ‘bronze’ ones )… or ANYTHING of ‘value’ sitting on an UNATTENDED State Park has an ‘excellent’ chance of just being ‘stolen’.
And former ‘investigator’ Gary Olson would know.
As he pointed out to Representative Karen Fann… dealing with that kind of ‘theft’ from PUBLIC LANDS was something he had to deal with all the time in his career… and was one of the reasons Gary Olson became ( among other things ) a nationally renowned SME ( Subject Matter Expert ) in the field of ‘remote sensor monitoring’.
So maybe ( after reading Gary’s letter and his informed opinions on the matter )… this ‘Yarnell Board’ really did finally realize that they BETTER have a ‘Ranger’ out there at least part-time… or there’s a good chance anything ‘installed’ out there is just going to ‘disappear’.
And maybe ‘Arizona State Parks’ finally ‘agreed’… and found the ‘money’ somewhere in their own budget to hire at least one Ranger… ( and offer a PENSION as well ).
Gary Olson posted a ‘copy’ of that same letter he sent to Arizona State Representative ( and Yarnell Memorial Board member ) Karen Fann to this ongoing discussion almost exactly one year ago… back on October 25, 2015 ( in Chapter 16 of this ongoing discussion ).
A direct link to that copy of Gary Olson’s original letter to Karen Fann is as follows…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-313288
Just one excerpt from Gary Olson’s ‘open letter’ to Arizona State Representative ( and Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board member ) Karen Fann…
————————————————————————–
And speaking of what one of the Board’s very real problems is, it is not people wanting to go to the site, their problem is that very few people WILL go to the site after the newness wears off. The Board’s best day will be the day of the Parks dedication and it will be all downhill from there. Another one of their very real problems is not the good citizens your law will turn away from the Park and discourage from even making the steep and very long trek through some God forsaken country.
The good people will obey your signs and either not go up there or turn around at the top when you tell them to. The real problem is the bad people who will pause at your signs only long enough to deface them…if they don’t just tear them down. The Boards planned very expensive and beautiful statues will be defaced and vandalized, it’s only a question of when, if they are not stolen outright.
————————————————————————–
I’m on the edge of my seat in anticipation of the name of the person the anointed ones have selected for the new ranger position for ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial Park’ and their potential connection to the underground, inbred, & thoroughly nepotistic animal that apparently IS the City of Prescott. Am I a cynic? Do I have a reason to be?
Woodsman
I should have said:
…”and their potential connection to the underground, inbred, & thoroughly NEPOTIC animal that apparently IS the City of Prescott.”
That’s what I get for attempting to use fancy words.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on October 12, 2016 at 8:06 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I’m on the edge of my seat in anticipation of the name of the
>> person the anointed ones have selected for the new ranger
>> position for ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial Park’ and their
>> potential connection to the underground, inbred, & thoroughly
>> NEPOTIC animal that apparently IS the City of Prescott.”
That ‘NEPOTIC animal’ is now definitely bigger than just the ‘City of Prescott’.
There are a LOT more people who are swallowing the ‘Granite Mountain Kool-Aid” than just those associated with the ‘City of Prescott’ or directly associated with that now-defunct ‘Granite Mountain’ organization.
The fact that the job listing just ‘appeared’ and then ‘disappeared’ in only about 72 hours is probably proof that they had ALREADY selected this ‘chosen one’… and the ‘flash on/flash off’ way they ‘advertised’ the position was just because they were REQUIRED to ‘make it look good’ and at least say that others had the chance to ‘apply’ for the position ( even though they already knew who was going to get the job ).
And you can bet this ‘chosen one’ has already been ‘vetted’ to make sure he/she has swallowed the appropriate amount of ‘Granite Mountain Kool Aid’ to match ‘level’ required for the ‘job’.
It would be beyond bizarre if this ‘chosen one’ turns out to be Brendan McDonough.
That would be just ‘too weird’ on any number of levels.
He only attended ONE meeting ( the first one ) for this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ that he was ‘appointed’ to… so it’s hard to say he ever really cared much about this whole ‘State Park’ project… but the way this ‘drama’ HAS and CONTINUES to unfold… nothing would surprise me.
Brendan probably became a ‘thousand-aire’ from the proceeds of his for-profit book and by selling what the movie business calls his ‘life-rights’ ( for a limited amount of time ) to a movie company…
…but it is still doubtful he will be able to ( or even WANT to ) make a CAREER out of being the only Granite Mountain Hotshot who did NOT burn to death on June 30, 2013.
Nah. The ‘chosen one’ is probably someone who lives in Yarnell or Peeples Valley or Congress. Someone who doesn’t have to travel far for just $12 lousy dollars per hour and to just baby-sit some statue(s) sitting in the middle of nowhere.
Someone ‘connected’ to the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Department’, maybe?
I’m still curious to find out if this ‘rent-a-ranger’ will actually have any ‘powers of arrest’ and/or actually be allowed to carry a firearm.
It will get VERY interesting if that turns out to be the case.
Woodsman
It is Jesus they hired.
Who better to walk with and tour guide with and He k ows best how to represent the GMHS 🙂
WTKTT and Gary Olson,
Thank you for this information.
It is helping me begin to understand what is behind the unique protectiveness of this park and deployment site.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on October 12, 2016 at 6:58 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> WTKTT and Gary Olson,
>> Thank you for this information.
>> It is helping me begin to understand what is behind the
>> unique protectiveness of this park and deployment site.
Gary’s letter to State Representative Karen Fann covers a lot of ‘this ground’ ( excuse the pun )… but it also stems back to the circumstances surrounding the actual CREATION of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.
It was this same small subset of family members ( Amanda Marsh, Deborah Pfingston, others ) who first ‘campaigned’ State Representative Karen Fann ( who represents the district Prescott is in ) to add a CLAUSE to the propose Arizona State legislation giving THEM ( this small subset of family members ) the OPTION of buying the deployment site land for THEMSELVES.
THEY ( the small subset of family members ) wanted ‘first dibs’ on buying the land and totally CONTROLLING it themselves… and being the sole arbiters of who would ever be allowed to ( legally ) ‘visit’ the deployment site.
So even though Amanda Marsh was one of Arizona State Representative Karen Fann’s EMPLOYEES ( Marsh was Fann’s farrier ) and there was always that ‘quid-pro-quo’ relationship… Karen Fann still went ahead and tried to ‘influence’ the proposed Arizona State legislation to ‘favor’ here ’employee’ ( and the other family members ) by inserting a clause into the official legislation giving THEM ‘first dibs’ on buying the deployment site land.
Karen Fann didn’t quite succeed with that attempt to ‘influence the legislation’.
Apparently… some other Arizona Senate and/or House members saw this for what it was… and Karen Fann’s original proposed ‘amendment’ to give this small ‘subset’ of family members codified ‘first dibs’ rights on the land didn’t actually make it into the final legislation.
Her ‘first dibs’ attempt got watered down to simply a clause in the legislation that the ‘first order of business’ for the new PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ was required to be a ‘discussion’ about whether these few ‘family members’ should be allowed to purchase the targeted land, in lieu of the State being the purchaser.
That ‘discussion’ actually never took place.
Apparently, by the time this ‘Board’ got fully assembled and had its first meeting… there was no need to have this mandated ‘discussion’ about whether to allow a few family members to buy the land.
By the time that first meeting came around… these ‘few family members’ had apparently realized that they could STILL get what THEY wanted ( control the design aspects and access to the land ) without using their OWN money.
All they had to do was be ‘sitting on this new board’ and be ‘involved’ in the ‘design’ process ( and access discussions )… and they could just let Arizona taxpayers buy the land and make a ‘State Park’ out of it while still being able to ‘influence’ the outcome.
So that is exactly what happened.
Amanda Marsh was ‘appointed’ to be one of the ‘representatives of family members’ sitting on the Board itself. There was, apparently, never any ‘discussion’ about this. Karen Fann is the one who ‘suggested’ that her employee/farrier be ‘appointed’ to this position on the Board… and it happened without any further discussion.
Deborah Pfingston showed up as private citizen to the Board’s initial meeting and was the very first PUBLIC citizen who was alllowed to ‘address the Board’. She got up and told them that that land was ( her word ) “SACRED” to her and other family members.
The ‘minutes’ from that first meeting actually report her saying ( to the Board )…
“She believes the site itself needs to be memorialized because the land is SACRED and important to them.”
At the very next meeting of this ‘Board’ ( on January 1, 2015 ) is when Deborah Pfingston was then ASKED to be on the actual ‘Design Subcommittee’… and she said yes. It’s also the meeting where Deborah Pfingston first proposed that there be 19 FULL-SIZE BRONZE statues out there for ALL of the dead Hothshots.
The minutes from that meeting report the following…
————————————————————————
CALL TO THE PUBLIC
Deborah Pfingston ( the mother of deceased GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft ) asked for, and received, permission to speak to the Board.
Regarding the design of monuments she is in support of the BRONZES up to and along the trail to the site. She would love to see full size bronzes of the guys with some type of explanation of what they each did that day. She thinks that there is an opportunity to educate people on what it is wild land firefighters and hot shot firefighters do. At the site itself she would like to see it plain clean, raw and rough just like other memorials of fallen hot shots. She doesn’t think the guys would appreciate a big monument there and believes plain crosses would be appropriate.
Board Chariman Mr. Bruce Martyn asked if Mrs. Pfingston would like to be on sub-committee for the memorial and she stated she would love to participate.
————————————————————————
So Amanda Marsh had already been ‘appointed’ to be ‘on the Board’… and from the moment detailed above at the second meeting ( and going forward ) Deborah Pfingston was now also ( essentially ) ‘on the Board’ as well and able to directly influence the outcome(s) herself ( but she still didn’t have an actual VOTE because she was not originally ‘appointed’ to the Board at all ).
A LOT of ‘compromises’ were made ‘along the way’.
Apparently… Pfingston’s original desire for 19 FULL-SIZE ( the discussion actually changed to 19 1 1/4 scale larger-than-life statutes ) got ‘compromised’ into the 19 ‘information plaques’ that will be installed at these 19 ‘waypoints’ along the hiking trail. The Design committee ( which Pfingston was on ) also changed that ‘desire’ to TWO ‘Bronze’ statues… one of a generic Wildland Firefighter ‘sawyer’… and another of a generic Wildland Firefighter ‘lookout’.
But it is still unknown if those TWO statues ‘stayed in the budget’… or whether they have now been reduced from expensive bronze to some cheaper material.
So that’s basically how it all ‘went down’.
It really did all START with this desire on the part of just a few of the ‘widows’ and other family members wanting to PURCHASE THE LAND for THEMSELVES… with their own money… and wanting to have FULL CONTROL about what would be ‘out there’ and ( more importantly ) WHO would ever be allowed to ‘visit’ the site.
And State Representative Karen Fann ( R – Prescott ) really did try to ‘influence’ a piece of Arizona Legislation on their behalf to let them ‘get their way’.
They ( these few ‘widows’ and family members ) eventually ‘thought better of it’ and realized it would be better if they just kept THEIR money, let the taxpayers of Arizona ‘buy the land’… and then just ‘hang in there’ as members of the ‘Board’ to see how much they could still ‘influence’ the final outcome.
Followup…
Arizona State Representative ( and Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board Member ) Karen Fann is ‘moving up in the world’.
She is about to just ‘replace’ her ‘buddy’ Steve Pierce as the Arizona State Senator for District 1.
Pierce decided not to run again… and Karen Fann is running UNOPPOSED for his ‘State Senator’ seat.
BallotPedia – Karen Fann – Republican – Arizona
https://ballotpedia.org/Karen_Fann
———————————————————————
Elections for the office of Arizona State Senate will take place in 2016. The primary election took place on August 30, 2016, and the general election will be held on November 8, 2016. The candidate filing deadline was June 1, 2016.
Incumbent Steve Pierce (R) did not seek re-election.
Karen Fann is UNOPPOSED in the Arizona State Senate District 1 general election.
———————————————————————-
**
** PARK RANGER BEING HIRED FOR ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN MEMORIAL PARK’.
Despite the fact that the Arizona Parks website says there will be NO PARK RANGERS
at the new ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ in Yarnell.. just yesterday Arizona
Parks published a specific job listing for one. 12 bucks an hour… but a shot at a PENSION.
I think Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan and/or Joy Collura should ‘apply’.
They would be ‘perfect’ for the ‘job’.
That ‘new’ Arizona State Parks webpage for the yet-to-be-open-to-the-public ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Park’ is here…
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/park-development
That is the Arizona Parks webpage where it now says the ‘signage’ at the park will…
“…tell the FULL STORY of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and the events of June 30, 2013.”
… and it also ( currently ) says…
“…There will be NO restroom facilities OR RANGERS at this Park location.”
However…
Just yesterday ( October 7, 2016 ), Arizona State Parks did, in fact, post a JOB listing for a ‘Park Ranger’ for the ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ ( See part of it below ).
This position WILL qualify for an Arizona State Retirement PENSION.
Two of the ‘job duties’ will be to ‘lead TOUR groups’ and ‘EDUCATE the PUBLIC’… but there is NO requirement for the applicant to know anything at all about ‘Wildland Firefighting’ in general, or the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ in particular.
Arizona State Parks Department
Job listings as of October 8, 2016
https://azstatejobs.azdoa.gov/ltmprod/CandidateSelfService/lm?_ln=JobSearchResults&_r=0&bto=JobPosting&dataarea=ltmprod&name=PostingDisplay&service=form&webappname=CandidateSelfService&HROrganization=1&JobRequisition=25836&JobPosting=3&context.session.key.HROrganization=1&context.session.key.JobBoard=EXTERNAL&context.session.key.Source=INDEED
The beginning of the ‘job listing’…
————————————————————————————————
PARK RANGER SPECIALIST ( Job Id 25836 )
Post Date: 10/07/2016
Close Date: ( Until position is filled )
Category: NATURAL RESOURCES
Grade: 15
Salary: 12.00 per hour
**THIS POSTING WILL REMAIN OPEN UNTIL FILLED**
Arizona State Parks Mission Statement: Managing and conserving Arizona’s natural, cultural and recreational resources for the benefit of the people both in our parks and through our partners. To learn more about Arizona State Parks, visit our web site at azstateparks.com
LOCATION: Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park, Yarnell, AZ 85362
** This is a Temporary/Seasonal Position, May work up to 40 hours per week and up to 1500 hours per calendar year.
** MUST BE ABLE TO WORK WEEKENDS, EVENINGS AND HOLIDAYS.
DESCRIPTION OF DUTIES: Under the direct supervision of the Regional Manager, performs a variety of skilled work activities associated with the operation and maintenance of a memorial park. Under the direction of the Regional Manager may serve as an interpretive guide, conduct programs and perform maintenance of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park. Provide general, historical, and scientific information and education to the visiting public concerning protection and management of natural and cultural resources. Conduct interpretative natural and cultural resource programs and regularly perform work essential to preserve and protect the park’s natural, cultural and recreational resources for the enjoyment of the public. This position may work with volunteer groups. This position will require hiking along rugged terrain.
—————————————————————————-
No additional word about ‘restrooms’.
I guess they will just leave one port-a-potty there in the parking lot for this ‘Park Ranger’?
Followup…
** NEW HELISPOT NEAR THE DEPLOYMENT SITE?
There is an interesting photograph on this new ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ sitting on the ‘Arizona State Parks’ web server…
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/park-development
It’s the second photograph down from the top, taken recently out at the deployment site.
A direct link to the photograph on that Arizona Parks webpage is as follows…
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/095858_29a56f7b910548cbaf88afd363b7061a.jpg/v1/fill/w_329,h_421,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/095858_29a56f7b910548cbaf88afd363b7061a.jpg
The photograph shows some ‘wildflowers’ growing again near the deployment site and it also shows the original ‘flagpole’ that was erected out near the site shortly after the tragedy.
But look on the LEFT SIDE of the photograph.
There is a HELICOPTER sitting there ( on the ground ).
It appears to have landed in that same ‘cleared space’ at the end of the original dozer push which was the place where all the GM bodies were loaded into pickup trucks following the YCSO police site investigation the morning of July 1, 2013.
That ‘cleared space’ there ( a few hundred feet from the actual deployment site ) then served as the ‘parking lot’ for all the subsequent investigator’s vehicles when they could still access that ‘dozer push’ from Lee and DJ Helm’s property.
That ‘dozer push’ road has been allowed to just ‘overgrow’ again ( since Lee and DJ Helm are no longer allowing access to it from their property )… but it looks like that original ‘parking lot’ is now being maintained as a ‘Helispot’.
I say ‘Helispot’ and not ‘Helipad’ because I really doubt they have actually poured any concrete or laid any asphalt out there near the deployment site.
So I guess this answers the long-standing question of how they plan to get ‘dignitaries’ ( or anyone else who could never in a million years make the required ‘hike’ ) out to the deployment site when they finally get around to having the ‘dedication’ ceremony for this park.
I supposed they are just going to FLY them out there.
By the way… regarding the question of “Why is that flagpole even still there?”…
Here’s the 411 on that…
The ‘flagpole’ ( and the LIGHTING that was installed for it ) shortly after the tragedy ( by Arizona Public Service Electric Company – APS ) and whether it should REMAIN at the deployment site… was discussed at the very first meeting of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.
Board member Chuck Tidey is the one who first suggested that it be moved… mostly out of concern for Lee and DJ Helm. He suggested moving it back to the other ‘memorial’ in Yarnell near Highway 89.
That is when Board Chairman/Director Bryan Martin said he didn’t give a crap what Lee and DJ Helm thought… and that it wasn’t the ‘Memorial Boards’ job to give a crap about it… either.
From the PUBLIC minutes of the very first meeting of this
‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’, back on November 24, 2014…
—————————————————————————–
4. Discussion of the Flagpole Currently Erected on the Site.
Mr. ( Chuck ) Tidey had requested this item be placed on the agenda.
Mr. ( Bryan ) Martyn said the board does not have authority to take down the flagpole currently on site, but the board does need to discuss it.
Mr. Tidey stated that his concern with the flagpole is the Helms family as they see the flag every day and the light that is lighting it.
He suggested that the flagpole be moved back to hide from their view or even move it to the memorial park in town with a plaque stating where the flag was flown previously. The Yarnell Hill Recovery Group owns the flagpole that was erected by APS. The State Land Department didn’t comment on the flagpole, but did issue a Right of Entry for the Yarnell Fire Department to maintain the area.
Director ( Bryan ) Martyn reminded the members that helping the plight of the Helms
family is not in the purview of the body.
———————————————————————————–
The ‘flag’ and the ‘flagpole’ was not mentioned again at any subsequent Board meeting… until the meeting on July 21, 2015.
That is when ‘honorary’ Design subcommittee member Deboarah Pfingston ( the mother of deceased GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft ) expressed her personal opinion to the Board and said that SHE ( herself ) did NOT want the flagpole removed from the deployment site.
From the minutes of the July 31, 2015 Board meeting…
————————————————————————————–
Deborah Pfingston would like to change the meeting time to 3:00pm for future meetings. Also, she would like to see the erosion at the fatality site controlled, and the fatality site vegetation maintained.
Deborah clarified some fatality site design components regarding the wall and accessibility inside.
She ( Pfingston ) does NOT want the flag moved from the fatality site.
————————————————————————————–
There was no ‘motion’ proposed about the ‘flag’ situation… and no VOTE was taken about it.
That was also the LAST time the ‘flag’ was even mentioned at any meeting… so it looks like Deborah Pfingston just got HER way… without it ever being put to any kind of ‘vote’ by the Board itself.
Board member Chuck Tidey was opposed to leaving it there ( see above )… but we have no idea how any other ‘Board member’ or ‘honorary subcommittee’ person felt… because there was never a ‘motion’ and/or a ‘vote’ about it.
So there it sits at the deployment site… because ( apparently ) only Board Director Bryan Martyn and honorary Design subcommittee member Deboarh Pfingston wanted it there.
Just another example of how a small subset of this PUBLIC committee ( and just one family member who wasn’t even originally appointed to it ) were able to ‘get their way’ and have things come out they way THEY wanted them to.
Number one wwtktt I am a conflict of interest to them but there is not one and I mean it that has been on the Weavers and knows it people.plant.terrain.flora in scientific names.the massacre that happen right in area they died. The old miner in 1886 who had a terrible death in that area.the mines and how after the acceleration of both fires the terrain went bare causing dangerous toxic mine drainage to possibly hit the table mesa because the natural density was robbed by fire and chemicals behind Helms out by the men has not yet been tested.The mines on the Weavers that gave me and Frank Serros and Tommy the Snakeman brain tumors diagnosis same year and they are dead but I have not yet let air touch mine so be very careful what caves to explore because even old school Sonny would never to many due to high concentrate of cyanide mercury and arsenic and I know how to survive off that land with no food or water brought in and I know WHO are avid passer thrus like a rancher on a horse with a pack of dogs or the wife of some pilot use to run out there and once in a blue a prospector or herpetologist or atv enthusiastic and I know all the regular to drifter hunters and I DEFINITELY can tell you before and after the fire the wildlife that live there and hate to see a cookie cutter ranger kill that mountain lion because its the size of an african lion and fear its close to residents because that lion has been there as long as I have and maybe before and she has the nicest looking kids and whoever IS ranger better wear snake boots because its ? season all year long on the weavers and I know their den spots and I know every and I mean EVERY STEP I take who’s land it is. I know where you can naturally get water and the list really goes on…I could be a cash only contracted out tour guide for the tour guide to show them these things but no way am I wasting time to have some certain person learn she was wrong on me and I have helped and done confidential contracted work for severely challenged veterans and such…wouldn’t let them in to my world knowing HOW crony and nepotism lays so high there that when I was looking for a jazz ? outfit to go to Sonnys counselor wedding reception and I learned more about the Prescott way town and the fire and at the PV Mall and what happened to the mall…no people and no stores and on a Saturday. I am the perfect person to tour guide the tour guide but they would never hire me for the people…I know more than I can say here and that would be ideal wwtktt but so are unicorns to a little miss kitty loving kid…not reality…thanks though…i already have showed people before sonny the Weavers but are they charging for just THEIR PATH or the whole Weavers now because I know the mountain so you dont have to take their path to see it…
I am a gal who a scholar in Tucson out of Saguaro national park emailed me years ago to go out hiking and show them all the unique created saguaros to wickenburg and congress so they can document and gps them FOR FREE and that was a 5 day hiking project but are they doing day fees or annual or is your state land pass exempt from hiking the Weavers…State owes me BIG time for theirbprofits because I have signed them up too many that I should get royalties…With all my foias and interviews I not only know 6.30.13 because I was there but I learned alot about the men from childhood to adulthood so I also am an asset to honoring the men properly but they probably have some script. …
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 9, 2016 at 10:21 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> are they doing day fees or annual or is your state land
>> pass exempt from hiking the Weavers?
Good question.
The ‘jop application’ itself says one of the ‘duties’ is “collecting fees”.
The very next paragraph of the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ RANGER job application that I didn’t show up above describes more ‘duties’ that will be required of this ‘Arizona State Parks’ employee…
It says one of those duties at this new PUBLIC ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ will be to <b"collect fees"…
From the job description…
——————————————————————-
Customer Service/General: Greets and provides information to visitors. Enforce park rules, collect fees, and perform office and clerical duties. Performs work of moderate difficulty in maintaining trail, memorial and day use areas, landscape and grounds maintenance, litter and garbage collection Performs moderate level construction work on special projects and painting. Inspect and patrol park grounds for vandalism, malfunctions or problems.
——————————————————————–
Nowhere on the new ‘web page’ for this ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’ does it have any kind of ‘fee schedule’… or any mention if/when there would be any FEES charged for anything.
Is it actually going to COST something just to ‘hike the trail’? ( for everyone? ).
OR
Will there be FEES just for ‘scheduled TOURS’ which involve the ‘Park Ranger’?
OR
Is that just some ‘canned description’ for a Park Ranger cut-and-pasted into that job description and it always just says stuff like that.
I guess we will find out if/when they ever OPEN the thing.
You also raise another interesting point regarding ‘access’ to the land.
Once this ‘Arizona State Park’ is OFFICIALLY open to the people who have PAID for it ( the PUBLIC )… does that mean that a ‘regular’ Arizona State Lands ‘hiking pass’ also allows anyone who has one to ‘access’ the ‘land’ from ANY direction they choose?
OR… is Arizona Parks going to try and maintain that unless someone ( even someone with a valid Arizona Lands Hiking Permit ) stays exactly on these little TRAILS they have come up with.. that they are ‘trespassing’ on what is still PUBLIC ( State Park ) land?
Their little ‘trails’ don’t go anywhere near the actual ‘descent point’… where Jesse Steed made the final ( fatal ) decision to leave the two-track and he led himself and those other 17 men in his care down into the blind box canyon.
If someone keeps ‘walking’ beyond this little ‘observation deck’ they are going to have there and keeps walking NORTH on the original two-track to that famous ‘descent point’ ( where Sonny found the roll of pink tape/flagging )… is Arizona Parks going to consider that ‘trespassing’ or ‘going where you are not allowed to go’?
Likewise… if someone ( like YOU, with a valid State Land hiking pass ) also ( like YOU ) has valid ‘letters of permission’ from the Maughn land owner(s) and they decide they would rather approach the ‘State Park’ from the NORTH, after visiting the ‘anchor point’ area where those men were actually working that day…
…will Arizona Parks also consider that, somehow, ‘trespassing’ onto the PUBLIC State Park?
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out… and whether their desire(s) to CONTROL ACCESS to this property can ever meet reality.
In the same vein… the ‘job application’ for this ‘Park Ranger’ for this ‘State Park’ doesn’t say anything about either firearm training and/or LE training… but I wonder if this one-and-only State Park ‘Ranger’ will have ANY kind of ‘LE’ capability and/or ‘powers of arrest’… or if they really WILL be allowed to be carrying a ‘firearm’?
THAT would get REALLY interesting… if that $12 dollar an hour rent-a ranger is actually hanging around out there with a firearm and ‘powers of arrest’.
SIDENOTE: I actually think this recent ( 48 hours ago ) ‘announcement’ about needing a paid ‘Park Ranger’ for this thing has something to do with decisions that might have been made at the most recent meeting of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.
They actually DID have another meeting since the one on June 22, 2016 where they ‘annoucned’ they were going to miss the originally planned ‘Park Opening Date’ of June 30, 2016… and where all the cost overruns were discussed.
Their most recent meeting was held on August 17, 2016.
Something tells me there was some ‘discussion’ at THAT most recent meeting about whether or not this PUBLIC Park really needed a ‘Park Ranger’ or not… and Arizona State Parks somehow agreed ( at that meeting ) to start advertising for one.
As usual, however… that PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ continues to break Arizona Open Meetings laws and they have still NOT published the ‘minutes’ from that August 17, 2016 PUBLIC meeting.
If/when they ever do… I think we will see some discussion about this ‘Park Ranger’ thing… and some agreement coming from Arizona State Parks to go ahead and HIRE one.
Followup…
It still would not surprise me at all to learn that the small subset of ‘family members’ who have always been trying to ‘control’ the design and the access for this PUBLIC State Park are also still trying to ‘limit’ WHO is allowed to get anywhere near the deployment site itself.
It would not surprise me at all to learn that there is now going to be some weird ‘Park Rule’ that while the PUBLIC is allowed to hike to the ‘observation deck’… that it is then ‘against the rules’ for this PUBLIC State Park to continue hiking down to the actual ‘deployment site’ UNLESS you are being ‘guided’ there by this $12 dollar an hour ‘rent-a-ranger’.
In other words… they ( Deborah Pfingston, Amanda Marsh, others ) STILL don’t want ‘the PUBLIC’ getting anywhere near the deployment site in an ‘unsupervised’ fashion.
They want a ‘Ranger’ to ‘guide’ them down there to make SURE that no one sets one single foot beyond those lobster-cages-filled-with-rocks and the CHAINS they put between them.
It seriously would not surprise me to learn they ( this small subset of family members ) are still actually THAT ‘paranoid’ about it.
I am sure that time I spent Christmas Eve on top curled into a section can no longer be a place we can sleep again campfire or no campfire—I bet it is forever forbidden…I think the top of Weavers there falls under Arizona State Park and I was the LAST one to sleep out there…and I bet the park rules are dawn to dusk ONLY—no night time hikes which are the best on the Weavers—why is it so much “control” on a place I traveled for so long “freely”…sure I got the state land permit when we learned about it LONG AGO and I got my written permissions because I am an avoidable gal and so I like to ensure all that but now it seems the trail I use to do from MY home to Sonny’s is “screwed up” and I think because I am an avid person up there I should be exempt from the bs…it’s like probably HOW Sonny felt when his family woke up and they dozed their home to build a highway…times are changing but not for the good I say…I think it is wrong to LEAD by announcement, by sloganeering, or…worse yet…by executive fiat….sometimes authority changes in wrong hands or ways or inexperienced- I have hard time grasping and I tune into WIIFT…—What’s In It For Them? Usually money; hidden revenues or public is HOW the world works nowadays…$$$$….and in it I am trying to validate this journey; life and this fire aftermath…Change means ending usually or transition or shift and well I can see why some would not hike the Weavers at night but it is my heart and soul as the desert walker to go wherever my feet says one foot in front of the other for that day (night or day) at hand (with heel spurs/plantar fascitis ) and I think they failed me here in Arizona in this fire journey…I do…treated me like crap and all I ever did for Arizona was clean up the highways and deserts on my dollar when disposed at the dumps—and always did good by them…it was sad to take the blinders off to see how SOME run this show…they have their viewpoint only but never thought about anyone but themselves…I think the people in the board room lead a different life than people who live and love and walk the desert as I do…I am me…I am not very good at packaging my message in an audience-appropriate language, analogies, and examples that allow people to relate…I ramble which after one reads “shake their head or scratch it”…I get CHANGE…just left wondering what the complete end goal is in all this…
TRUTH or CHANGE?
I am confused at to what the family members are worried about and why apparently there were not these concerns after other fires such as South Canyon?
It appears that after other fires the site is open to whoever cares to walk around it. Maybe there is something I am missing.
Thanl you Diane.you miss the missing elements that foias and interview just scratch the surface because you and I cannot walk it but Holly N and others were able to not only walk it freely but scope it out and investigate it and they were not the sait or osha and just on a team to make a book which some out there do not get comprehend but books make money. .I don’t when I walked out there and took care of a tick out of a rabbit’s eye or help a badger caught in somes hunter’s cat trap…he would say see anything in my traps but a cat than yeah lrt it go and so that badger was let go but he eventually died 9 months later.. He was a pal and so were all the wildlife out there. Let Sonny share how near he and I and skeeter his half wolf akita were from a lion as we hiked at night and the lion just was like whats up sonny and joy…good to see you…so yeah an area I agree with ya Diane…why and what for. ..they do need to cleanse the area so I sugest prayer in abundance from prior moments to 6.30.13
Why does the area need to be cleansed?
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
OCTOBER 9, 2016 AT 1:23 PM
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 9, 2016 at 10:21 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> are they doing day fees or annual or is your state land
>> pass exempt from hiking the Weavers?
Good question.
The ‘jop application’ itself says one of the ‘duties’ is “collecting fees”.
————————————————-
from link here:
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/f-a-q-s
it says there:
Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park will be FREE to visit and will generate no revenue, so funding is required to develop and support the Parks operation and maintenance.
————————————–
free- sorry nothing is free (except knowing Him) BUT THEN THE COLLECTING FEES IS TO ENSURE EVERYONE HAS THE STATE LAND PERMIT MAYBE; I PAY $20 each year and they one year made it $75.00 so would not be surprised if they raised rates again because it has happened.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
October 9, 2016 at 10:21 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> from link here:
>> http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/f-a-q-s
>>
>> it says there:
>> Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park
>> will be FREE to visit and will generate no revenue,
>> so funding is required to develop and support
>> the Parks operation and maintenance.
>>
>> free- sorry nothing is free (except knowing Him)
>> BUT THEN THE COLLECTING FEES IS TO ENSURE
>> EVERYONE HAS THE STATE LAND PERMIT MAYBE;
>> I PAY $20 each year and they one year made it $75.00
>> so would not be surprised if they raised rates
>> again because it has happened.
Well… the FAQ quote above is on the same new Arizona State Parks ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ website that also says…
“…There will be NO RANGERS at this Park location.”
…yet here they are now actively HIRING a ‘Park Ranger’ for this ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’… and that ‘job description’ does say one of the ‘duties’ will/could be “collecting fees”.
So there is still a large element of ‘mystery’ here what this is all going to ACTUALLY ‘look like’ once they get around to opening this thing to the PUBLIC ( who ALREADY paid for it ).
Something tells me there are still some ‘surprises’ in store here with regards to ‘freedom of access’ to this State Park… even during hours when it is, in fact, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.
The next ( proposed ) PUBLIC meeting of this still-controlling-things ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ is scheduled for October 19, 2016, at the Yavapai County Supervisor’s Building ( 1015 Fair Street in Prescott )… in the ‘Gladys Gardener’ room.
Followup…
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> from link here:
>> http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/f-a-q-s
There is another ‘interesting’ photo at the TOP of that new ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ FAQ page that you just posted that link to.
The photograph at the TOP of the page appears to show a NEW ‘flagpole’ and ‘flag’ erected in a location that does NOT match where the ‘original’ one was that was installed by Arizona APS company just shortly after the tragedy.
This ‘new’ flagpole *appears* to be much CLOSER to the actual deployment site than the original one was.
When honorary design subcommittee person Deborah Pfingston ‘got her way’ during the ‘design phase’ by simply expressing HER own ‘personal preference’ that the ‘flagpole’ not be MOVED… as Yarnell Chamber of Commerce leader and ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ member Chuck Tidey was suggesting…
…Pfingston was only talking about the ‘flagpole’ that was ALREADY there. The one installed by APS.
But the photograph seems to show that some ‘additional’ decisions seem to have been made ( which never show up in any meeting minutes and were never voted on ) to MOVE the flagpole even CLOSER to the deployment site.
There is also no sign of any ‘lighting’ installed…. as was the case with the original.
SIDENOTE: The photograph above also does NOT show the flag of the ‘State of Arizona’ flying along with the US Flag… as was the case with the original APS flagpole.
It’s an ARIZONA State Park.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots were ‘owned and operated’ by the City of Prescott… in ARIZONA.
And now the flagpole near the deployment site on this ARIZONA State Park land is ONLY flying the US Flag?
What’s UP with THAT?
BTW: United States FEDERAL Flag Code states “The flag may be displayed 24 hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.”
There are some ‘exceptions’ to that rule.. but not many.
If there will be no lighting… maybe one of the ‘jobs’ of the new $12 dollar an hour rent-a-ranger will be to hike OUT to the deployment site EVERY MORNING to ‘raise’ the flag(s)… and then hike all the way back out at DUSK every day to take the flag(s) down again.
If so… I think whoever takes the job should hold out for at least $14 dollars an hour.
yes in OSHA pics I reviewed it is more to the left and use to be more to the right but at first I thought “angle taken” but yes it does look moved and recently someone felt the light moved out there so maybe it did—
My question is in regard to the American flags that covered the men’s bodies at the deployment site.
If Granite Mountain was owned by the city of Prescott
wouldn’t the Arizona state flag be more appropriate?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
October 10, 2016 at 9:23 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> My question is in regard to the
>> American flags that covered the
>> men’s bodies at the deployment site.
>>
>> If Granite Mountain was owned by
>> the city of Prescott wouldn’t the
>> Arizona state flag be more appropriate?
Well… based on what you just pointed out… the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ didn’t even ‘work’ for the State of Arizona.
Their ‘paychecks’ came from a CITY… not even from the State of Arizona, much less the Federal Government.
Yes… they were ‘technically’ contractors for the State of Arizona when they all burned to death on that State-Managed Fire… but their individual ‘paychecks’ for the work they were doing that day would have still been ‘cut’ to them by their actual employer… the CITY ( municipality ) of Prescott.
The City of Prescott would have done the ‘billing’ back to Arizona State for the work they had done. The City would have ‘taken their cut of the billing rate for the Crew and then would have ‘paid’ the crew normally… with a ‘paycheck’ being ‘cut’ by the CITY itself.
But the REALITY that many firefighters ( and, indeed, police officers ) actually WORK for MUNICIPALITIES ( Cities and/or ‘Townships’ ) has long since gotten replaced with this notion that they are all “serving their country” the minute they clock into work.
There is also the ongoing ‘psuedo-military’ culture which supports the same notion that they are all “serving their country” whenever they are ‘at work’.
So I think if YCSO Sheriff Scott Mascher had ‘suggested’ that the ‘Arizona Flag’ would have been more appropriate to cover the body bags at the deployment site… he would have gotten that suggestion thrown back in his face.
There is nothing in the Arizona Statutes that either prohibits or denies anyone the right to use the Arizona State Flag to cover a casket.
Likewise… ( and contrary to some people’s beliefs ) there is nothing in the official US Flag Code that prohibits ANYONE from also using the American Flag to cover a coffin.
Anyone can. You don’t have to be either military OR a policeman OR a fireman.
The only ‘requirement’ in the US Flag code is that if an American Flag is used on a casket… that all the other ‘display rules’ be observed.
And speaking of which… when Darrell Willis took that photo of all of the body bags covered with American Flags out by the deployment site… and it ended up on ‘Facebook’ before the bodies had even been delivered to the Medical Examiner’s office…
…some of the MAJOR objections to that ‘photo’ had to do with those exact ‘display rules’ in the US Flag Code.
That photo that Darrell Willis took is here…
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bPjCvVWobpM/Ud15V_5N1cI/AAAAAAAAA1o/-AG_rFxop4Q/s1600/1440475412_n.jpg
Some people were ‘incensed’ when that photo went PUBLIC simply because…
1. ALL of the American Flags draped over the body bags were TOUCHING THE GROUND.
That is, of course, a HUGE no-no even in the official US Flag Code.
2. The body bags were all ( supposedly) lined up by the YCSO investigators with their HEADS to the NORTH… but all the flags draped over the body bags have the ‘star field’ covering the FEET of the deceased men. That is also a direct violation of US Flag Code.
But regardless of the ‘nit picking’ about even the US Flag Code being violated… a lot of people were also incensed when that photo appeared because of the obvious “theatrics” of it all.
It was NOT NECESSARY for there to even BE any kind of ‘honor guard’ thing happening that morning, much less ‘beginning’ right there at the end of that dozer push.
The Medical Examiner VANS were all perfectly capable of driving out to the deployment site itself… and the bodies could have been loaded directly into the VANS themselves.
There was NO NEED for this additional ‘step’ whereby the bodies were hauled away from the site 3 at a time in PICKUP TRUCKS… only to just pull into the Boulder Springs Ranch where the bodies had to then me moved AGAIN from the PICKUP TRUCKS into the Medical Examiner VANS.
It was all just ‘theatrics’… but someone didn’t have the heart to tell those already-grieving firefighters that it wasn’t necessary at all and was literally just creating ‘more work’ and ( more importantly ) more DELAYS in getting those bodies into the temperature-controlled environment of the Medical Examiner VANS.
SIDENOTE: This ‘automatic’ assumption that any firefighter’s coffin should be draped with an ‘American Flag’… regardless of the actual circumstances of their employment… is probably best illustrated by what just happened with the Keewenaw Bay Indian Community ‘Beartown Firefighters’ who were killed in that rollover crash on August 27, 2016.
Both the deceased firefighters were members of ( and employees of ) the KBIC Indian Tribe… which is a SOVERIGN NATION.
That ‘Sovereign Nation’ even has its OWN FLAG.
But when the bodies were being returned to Baraga, Michigan, the ‘home’ for the KBIC Tribe… the VANS they were in had the doors opened and they drove slowly down the streets of the town so everyone could SEE the caskets inside the vans.
And both of the caskets containing the bodes of these two members of this KBIC ‘Sovereign Nation’ were draped with AMERICAN FLAGS.
Here is the AZCENTRAL article that was published about the ‘controversial’ photo of the flag-draped body bags out at the deployment site…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Yarnell fire photo of fallen firefighters stirs controversy
Published: Fri Jul 5, 2013 8:57 AM
By: Shaun McKinnon and Rebecca McKinsey
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130704yarnell-fire-photo-fallen-firefighters-controversy.html
Some of the public ‘comments’ made…
———————————————–
David Stephens – July 5, 2013 2:54pm
Not only is the photo itself in extraordinarily poor taste, but the desecration of the United States Flag is despicable. First, when placed over a casket, the field goes over the deceased’s left shoulder, nearest the heart. All the flags in this photo are the opposite, effectively upside down. Far more importantly, and one reason the flag should never be placed on a body bag, is that part of every flag in this photo is in the dirt, an outrageous desecration of the flag. You do not honor fallen first responders by dishonoring the United States Flag. Whoever is responsible for this vile, disgusting stunt should be fired.
William Henneberg – July 7, 2013 11:24am
Not sure it was vile and disgusting, but definitely BADLY DONE. It is possible that the people who stage-managed this were not vets of Boy Scouts and had not had flag etiquette instruction. As far as poor taste, that is debatable, but the WAY it was done takes something away from it.
Karen Pfyl – July 6, 2013 11:02pm
This photo has brought great pain to the father and family of one of the men. Please think for a moment, a part of us-our family, my brother’s only child is there . The really disturbing part is the open tailgates, it almost looks like they are going to load the boys into the trucks like firewood. (my brother’s words) It is a terrible picture for a father to see. This should have been kept private and is extremely inappropriate.
NOTE: Karen Pyfl is deceased GM Hotshot Garret Zuppiger’s aunt. Her brother is Dylan Zuppiger, Garret Zuppiger’s father.
Lisa Marie Splain – July 6, 2013 11:29pm
It is improper flag etiquette to have the USA flag touch the ground. When we see images of our fallen soldiers, the flag is draped over the casket, NOT touching the ground.
——————————————–
wwtktt said:
Is it actually going to COST something just to ‘hike the trail’? ( for everyone? ).
OR
Will there be FEES just for ‘scheduled TOURS’ which involve the ‘Park Ranger’?
OR
Is that just some ‘canned description’ for a Park Ranger cut-and-pasted into that job description and it always just says stuff like that.
I guess we will find out if/when they ever OPEN the thing.
MY REPLY:
i just asked via email to them
Unlike most sites where Wildland Fire tragedies have taken place, this puppy is now going to be an actual ( official ) ‘State Park’.
Consequently… there WILL be times when certain GROUPS ( like buses of schoolkids or TOUR buses full of adults, etc. etc. ) will think it’s a good idea to do a ‘field trip’ to the ‘State Park’.
Usually those kinds of GROUPS actually EXPECT to receive a ‘guided tour’ of the ‘State Park’… and will REQUEST such ‘special treatment’.
It happens all the time ( at State Parks ).
And when it DOES happen… there’s no reason at all why they shouldn’t expect to have to pay some kind of FEE for that kind of ‘hand-holding’ and ‘special access’ to the State Park.
Someone has to spend that time with them… and DO the ‘hand-holding’… and time is money.
So it really would not surprise me if this new ‘rent-a-ranger’ who is ( apparently ) going to be hired for this new Arizona State Park has a right to ‘collect fees’ for certain ‘special things’ like organized ‘GROUP TOURS’ and whatnot.
The ‘mystery’ here is that the official website for this upcoming new ‘Arizona State Park’ says there will be NO RANGERS and NO BATHROOMS…
…but just 48 hours ago we see Arizona State Parks trying to HIRE a ‘Ranger’ for the park… and offering a PENSION for that position as well.
So what ELSE is now ‘not accurate’ about what that Arizona Parks website ( currently ) SAYS… and what the actual REALITY will be once they open the thing to the PUBLIC ( who have ALREADY paid for it )?
since it is crossing in the start NOT Arizona State Park but just state land and someone is ignorant—besides that fee they want you to have your normal state land pass…
WHAT IS THE PENALTY FOR TRESPASSING ON TRUST LAND WITHOUT A VALID RECREATION PERMIT?
ShowAnswer
Failure to obtain a valid Recreation Permit before entering, or violating the terms and conditions of your Recreation Permit while on Trust Land, may result in criminal misdemeanor charges for trespassing on Trust Land.
https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/Individual-Family_Printable_Permit_Application_0.pdf
here is your application
here is the fee schedule:
https://land.az.gov/natural-resources/recreational-permits
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 9, 2016 at 10:08 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>> https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/IndividualFamily_Printable_Permit_Application_0.pdf
>>
>> here is your application
The very first ‘bullet item’ on the ‘informational’ part of that Arizona Hiking Permit application says…
———————————————————–
1. This Permit does not include any implied rights to use any land other than State Trust lands. You are responsible for obtaining any other permits ( state, federal, local ) necessary.
———————————————————–
So I guess that answers the question of whether this particular ‘Hiking Permit’ also automatically implies ‘permssion’ to walk on Arizona State Parks land.
It does not.
Curious that they would use the phrase “rights to USE any land” rather than say “rights to ACCESS any land”… but that is probably neither here nor there and ‘walking across’ a piece of land could, I suppose, simply be construed to also mean you are ‘USING’ that land.
But the QUESTION still remains… if someone who DOES have one of these valid ‘hiking permits’ simply walks FROM ‘State Trust’ land ( where they have every right to be walking ) ONTO land that is ‘owned’ by ‘Arizona State Parks’ ( at a time when the park is, in fact, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC )… can that, in any way, be construed as ‘trespassing’?
Or if someone does the same thing coming from PRIVATE land that adjoins the PUBLIC ‘State Park’ ( and they have all the necessary ‘letters of permission’ to be doing that ) ONTO the PUBLIC ‘State Park’ land ( at a time when that park is, in fact, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC )… can that also ever be construed as ‘trespassing’?
When Arizona Parks finally gets around to ‘opening’ this new PUBLIC State Park there in Yarnell… are they going to actually try to say that the ONLY WAY the PUBLIC is EVER allowed to ‘access the PUBLIC park’ is by not setting one foot OFF of these little ‘trails’ they have come up with?
Are they really going to try and set all these ‘rules’ about where the PUBLIC can or cannot ‘walk’ on that State Park land… even during a time when that PUBLIC park is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC?
It will be interesting to see what the final “rules” of this “game” turn out to be.
I sent email asking that earlier tonight to them because I know the hunters and stuff and I have a hunting pass to relocate rattlesnakes and that USE TO BE the area because of the nice wide pullover for Snakeman/Frank Serros and I did it over here in Congress out aways on Date Creek on right toward base of Weavers then we would hike up and relocate them back in 09′ right there and Snakeman let go hybrids which are so very dangerous- a rancher called Snakeman and he called me and said so you want me to pick you up to learn how to identify a hybrid rattler; the rancher cornered one—I said no at first because he had one in an aquarium once and we watched the venom go in rat and the rat …meat and bones dissolved to zip—he killed the hybrid by putting it in freezer alive and he taught me with head still on how to skin it so he put it in the freezer and the next Monday I am in this dark musty chilly trailer hearing the water drip from the faucet as each drip was heavily plop plop plop and he takes my hand to teach me where to place my hand because as it thaws out sometimes they are still moving (muscle something) and I remember the mouth was closed shut and I am razor blading finely around the mouth and the jaw opened with fangs showing and body moved and I dropped it in sink and backed up because as jaws opened it was not dead and he said “let me turn a light on”…the window light was not enough but he was poor and lived only by daylight not house lights and it was the one he killed the night before and he said “OOPS, wrong one…here it is” and I said “hell no” and he said “oh come on… women are expendable” and I said “what is wrong with you that you did not kill this rattler and you caught it at 1am and you put it in freezer bag and placed in freezer and at 7am you hand me that and wouldn’t it be a certain weight when you gave it to me if it was frozen frozen?” he said “probably but relax kid. Lighten up; I have not had my coffee yet. You need to go to the bars or something; you are a little too tense for me; it is just a snake.” and I said to him “in my mind I thought I was slicing a FROZEN FOR A WEEK HYBRID not a freshly alive rattler you placed in a freezer 6 hours before and I even asked you how come it did not feel real cold or frozen and you said some do and some don’t”…So he was bummed out because he put the one in water and then drained then froze it as I successfully skinned it with head on and cleaned it and tanned it for a hat band- he took the fangs out—there is more behind the visible set—and as we began to clean the insides to learn and compare to his frozen stored parts of a mojave and diamondback and start to see the characteristics internally of what is hybrid…they are bad bad bad…when I saw that rat get hit and vanish before my eyes. I asked him are rattlesnakes illegal to have and he showed me the posters and rule books and I think to this date hybrid snakes of any kind should not be allowed in any residential area only because Snakeman had them in aquariums but not always because he would put lid back wrong and out they were and I have been there for a black rattlesnake bathroom moment; it was behind the toilet and another location in place a black tailed rattlesnake was above where I cooked on a shelf ledge and all I saw was the rattlers thinking it was taxidermy as I look up and then ran…what the hell I said…and they laughed and said girls are expendable and I was like I can see that from punk kids but your are in your 70s…crap…I stopped allowing him on my hikes…no way that kind of reckless person was gonna and Franki learned about his Brain tumor than Snakeman and he died of prostate cancer but that was some memorable moments but NOTHING compares to Sonny on the trails with rattlers; just grabs them and chokes them to death and swings it on his winshield wipers…and off to post office or catching a bull snake and wrapping it on his visor alive and I am like huh…so yeah there is DANGEROUS hybrids on the Weavers
WTKTT/Joy – A few questions;
Have Arizona Parks restricted movement across ANY of their other public parks when open? e.g. you have to stick to the designated path? Is there a precedent or is this SETTING one? And would it be legally enforceable?
Also – just for the record, and for anyone reading this who isn’t aware – When will (should) the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board disband and cease to exist?
Reply to Otis post on October 11, 2016 at 3:04 am
>> Otis said…
>>
>> WTKTT/Joy – A few questions;
>>
>> Have Arizona Parks restricted movement across ANY of their other
>> public parks when open? e.g. you have to stick to the designated path?
First and foremost… with regards to this yet-to-be-open-to-the-public ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’… there is no PROOF, as yet, that there will be any ‘restrictions of movement’ on the park land at all, when it is ‘open for business’.
But there is also no PROOF there won’t be ( restrictions ).
They simply aren’t making that CLEAR ( yet ).
Even the new Arizona State Parks website dedicated to this new Park is not saying anything about this… one way or the other.
But given the ongoing desires of the small subset of family members who sit on this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’, and their continuing desire to CONTROL and RESTRICT ACCESS to the deployment site… it would not surprise me if they are still trying to ‘get their way’ and that we WILL see ‘park rules’ along the lines of the following…
1. The PUBLIC must stay on the provided TRAILS. Access to all other parts
of the park other than the provided trails and pathways is prohibited.
…and, perhaps ( since we now know they are hiring a $12 per hour Park Ranger ), something like this…
2. The PUBLIC must NOT proceed down the provided trail from the
‘Observation Deck’ area to the ‘Deployment Site’ area unless accompanied
by a Park Ranger.
As for ‘other Arizona State Parks’…
I ( me, personally ) have never set foot in the late, great state of Arizona… so I can’t speak for their ‘State Parks’… but even in my ‘neck of the woods’ there are certainly always SOME ‘places’ within public state parks where the PUBLIC is ‘not supposed to go’.
Example: Even if I have a camping permit for a ‘State Park’… that doesn’t mean I can pitch my tent in the backyard of one of the on-site Ranger Stations or Houses.
There are also always ‘maintenance areas’ where equipment is stored that is considered ‘off limits’ to the public on the State Park… and some State Parks can restrict where the public can go and say it is “for their own safety”… like no-shit dangerous areas within the park itself ( cliffs, sinkholes, rockslide areas, etc. ).
So it remains to be seen if they will TRY and ‘restrict access’ to the grounds of the State Park in any way… or try to say the ONLY place the PUBLIC is ever allowed to be is ON the ‘paths provided’.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> Is there a precedent or is this SETTING one?
Since there is still no word yet what ( if any ) ‘restrictions’ there might be in place when the thing finally ‘opens to the PUBLIC’… it’s hard to say if they will be setting any new ‘precedents’ in that regard…
…but the ‘precedent’ that is definitely already being ‘set’ is that this is the FIRST time the State of Arizona has ever authorized the creation of a ‘Memorial State Park’, whose sole purpose is to ‘manage’ a place where people DIED… using State taxpayer dollars.
So even ‘Arizona State Parks’ is in ‘unchartered waters’ with this ‘Memorial’ Park.
They ( both Arizona Parks and this ‘Memorial Site Board’ ) could easily go ‘over the top’ and impose all kinds of ‘restrictions’ and say it is all being done in the name of ‘honoring the fallen and being sensitive to the desires of living family members’.
Indeed… even when they were publicly discussing the DESIGN for the ‘State Park’ at the public meetings of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’… the deployment area was being officially referred to by Board members as “the GRAVESITES”.
That area is no such thing… but they might try to CONTINUE to PRETEND that it is, and try to put ‘rules’ in place for the ‘State Park’ as IF it was actually some kind of ‘CEMETERY’.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> And would it be legally enforceable?
Good question.
You can’t sustain the PRETENSE that some place is a CEMETERY… when it is NOT.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> Also – just for the record, and for anyone reading this who isn’t aware – When
>> will (should) the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board disband and cease to exist?
The Arizona Legislation that CREATED this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ ( and deposited the initial $500,000 of taxpayer dollars in an account for it to ‘administer’ ) was Arizona House Bill 2624.
It was ‘approved’ by the Governor of Arizona ( Jan Brewer, at that time ) on April 30, 2014.
It is a ‘self-repealing’ piece of legislation… and contains its own language that specifically says the legislation ( and the public ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ it created ) EXPIRES on December 31, 2016.
It also says that on the following day, January 1, 2017, the ‘Arizona State Parks Board’ shall then be solely responsible for administering the ‘fund’ which was also created by the self-repealing legislation.
Here is the full TEXT of the original Arizona House BILL 2624…
http://www.azstateparks.com/publications/downloads/House_Bill_2624.pdf
From that bottom of that self-repealing legislation…
——————————————————————–
Sec. 2. – Delayed repeal
Section 41-519.01, Arizona Revised Statutes, as added by this act, is repealed from and after December 31, 2016.
B. Beginning on January 1, 2017, the Arizona State Parks Board
shall adminster the fund.
——————————————————————–
So this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ only has until December 31, 2016 to finish trying to ‘influence’ the DESIGN and the ACCESS RESTRICTIONS for this new State Park… and then ‘Arizona State Parks’ becomes the sole authority in charge of setting the ‘rules’ for this new PUBLIC State Park.
Ah yes, it’s a Memorial State Park, and the first one in Arizona. Glad you pointed that out. Thanks for the answer WTKTT.
It’s their ‘first one’… and so Arizona State Parks had no ‘template’ to use for creating either the design or the ‘rules’ for this puppy.
So the REALITY is… they ( Arizona State Parks ) is ‘deferring’ to this ‘Advisory Committee’ known as the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’… and that Board, in turn, is being heavily ‘influenced’ and ‘controlled’ by a small subset of ‘family members’… one of whom ( Deborah Pfingston ) wasn’t even appointed to the Board at first and was just ‘allowed’ to become a ‘member of the public’ who was ‘assigned’ to be on the ‘Design subcommittee’.
So it really does look like they have always been approaching this ‘project’ as if they were creating some sort of Arizona State sponsored CEMETERY.
And even Board members have openly referred to the deployment site itself as ‘the GRAVESITES’.
Personally… I’m still now VERY interested to discover what their idea of the ‘FULL STORY’ is… since the Arizona Parks website is now saying that is what the taxpayer-paid-for SIGNAGE at the park will be ‘telling’.
Leaving the parts out that you don’t want the PUBLIC to know ( like Mike Dudley’s decision to ‘not go there’ with a lot of actual evidence during his investigation ) is one thing.
But I don’t think the taxpayers are going to take kindly to expensive SIGNAGE that might end up just telling actual LIES.
I read through the FOIAS for personal clarity but boy do I wish I knew some of the WAY TOO MANY on these FOIAS- (fly on their wall)
how is it possible there is THAT many people INVOLVED on a very tiny town and yet none of you are not having this melt down “come to Jesus” moment and coming out with the stuff I have read…
I would HATE to see an investigation of much BIGGER fires if I am seeing how many thousands and thousands of NAMES in these foia returns and yet we have 30-55 per hour come to IM…that is freaking ill sick…and boy is this site not viewed well- ohE’! RTS and Bob and Gary must of LOST pals in the industry for their valuable participation to IM.
Man, if you can just be a fly on my wall and see all the names and all different- it is dumb-founding how not one has broke down and just went blah, blah, blah no matter how many memos were placed out—
if this were my kids I would be asking everywhere I could and I do see one loved one has and I am sorry for the lack of cooperation to you…sad….
and I am reading a foia that in RED says attorney client privileged communication but nothing redacted—so confusing—I can GET omit/redact/edit some areas but I would think this I should not see and should be blacked out…weird.
The ‘agency’ that was required to ‘respond’ to the ‘records request’ has already had their chance to claim valid ‘exemptions’ and make ‘redactions’.
If they have neglected to do that.. then that is THEIR problem… not YOURS.
yes but the flow seems to lead since I am a personal clarity non commercial that they forgot or they wanted me to see it but I am sure the people in it would not want me to see an attorney client privileged communication…did not make sense- thank you wwtktt for your continued words—
Well… even if they left something in there they didn’t really WANT the PUBLIC to see… that’s pretty much ‘tough luck’ on their part.
They had their chance to ‘conceal’ whatever they wanted.
If they didn’t… it’s ‘too late’ and they can’t ‘take it back’.
By the way… if we are talking about a communication between a PUBLIC employee who works for a PUBLIC agency… and a lawyer who is ALSO employed and being PAID with PUBLIC ( taxpayer ) dollars…
…then it’s not actually a ‘given’ that the ‘attorney/client’ privileges can even be ( successfully ) claimed.
Even the Supreme Court has not made up its mind on this.
Remember a little something called ‘Watergate’?
They kept trying to ‘hide’ things from the PUBLIC using the same ‘attorney/client’ privilege claim… until everyone came to realize the attorneys were ‘crooks’ right along with everyone else involved.
Reading my FOIA it is really apparent that someone did not like Marsh and I have no problem understanding that. I believe if media gets hold of the information and a published version of it people will be appalled. However, since most people have bought into the hero theory instead of the real truth of what killed the young souls under their bosses I am certain the media will not bother.
It is a shame that we have only John Daugherty in the media sense is brave enough to investigate and reveal facts not generally given to the public. I do know many fire fighters, and others that read this site and even those that have the fortitude to contribute do agree with the published findings of John’s investigation into the Yarnell Debacle. I do understand why mainly only retired wild land fire fighters are talking. Those with jobs know their life and jobs would be in jeopardy to do so. The civilians here however can still follow the rule of free opinion based upon what they have seen and know.
How anyone can be called a hero in the Yarnell incident boggles the mind. The many lives that were recklessly risked and killed were 19 souls, but add to that the many deaths of over 110 since the fire and you have even a larger tragedy than the wild land fire fighter deaths. I strictly attribute these deaths due to retardant drops and the resulting poisons and poisonous fumes resulting from these drops.
Two hundred thirty thousand gallons plastering houses and back yards and within a few feet of homes has had its deathly effects on the elderly. Those thousands of gallons were again amplified by the recent hundred thousand gallon drops right near the residences on the east side of Yarnell. I do not have the jumbo jet exact figures for the new drop yet but I am certain they will amass a total drop of over three hundred thousand gallons of the agent orange retardant that has completely surrounded the community of Yarnell–now down to less than 500 residents if you count the deaths and the many people that moved away because they were unable to rebuild.
Well you might say old Sonny has not read the FS report that this retardant is inert. Well I suspect anything told me until I search these things out, and once I learned that up to 16% of this slop is hidden and publicly unknown chemicals I knew some entity does not want the public to know what it has gotten in the soup. The ammonia gas itself is a deadly chemical in sufficient quantities and communities have been and are evacuated when ammonium tank cars leak or break. Rightly so, since ammonia gas kills lung cells and lung cells do not regenerate. But add to the 84-90% ammonium sulfates and nitrates used that do create cyanide when exposed to burning embers, the soup and we begin to see the disaster potential to human health==especially the elderly such as myself.
Just today we talked to a local Kenny that we saw working his chipper on local brush. He is now looking bad health wise and is on his way out. Since Joy had to go into the hospital today as well, she is undergoing many tests–lung problems, puking blood, and cancer tumors since the fire, we also saw another person from Yarnell trying to get oxygen relief. It goes on and on but seems no one wants to tie this deadly orange concoction to human health problems.
Now the new Tenderfoot fire of late, because the local fire department that loved to start a back burn or burn out depending on the lingo you use, they caused the necessity of those thousands of gallons of agent orange retardant to be dropped on the east side of town. I would say this burn was totally unnecessary and did more damage than good and even caused the necessity to drop those jumbo jet loads of retardant again right on the back yards of this small community. How can they be called heroes saving the town, yet they were in local papers. They did not save the town but the media and public eats that shit up. If these papers would investigate properly instead of listening to what the chief fire fighters tell them, people would begin to question the tactics and methods of many of these fire fighting incidents.
What was the truth of the Yarnell Tenderfoot fire? I was here–the wind continued to the east all the time of the fire and had no reason to change. The fire was over the mountain and with wild land fire fighters would have never backed over the ridge since it was more than a mile down the mountain a about two miles between Yarnell and Stanton. It was headed toward the mountains east of the dirt Stanton road and would more than likely burned itself out in the boulder terrain over there. Yet the unnecessary burnout took out three structures, the electrical supply to the town and created the necessity of a million dollar agent orange slop dump so again the locals would be dosed with the extra poisons. But tout all this as a heroic saving of Yarnell–more bull shit.
Yet in all my experience, thas guinea pigs e experimental using of us local elderly might have a positive effect to stop or at least reduce the generally useless drops of poisons, especially near communities. Where is Dr. Mengala?
I have a question about the use of air attack on the Yarnell Fire on 6/30/2013:
During the critical hour in the afternoon when the winds changed direction and were blowing the fire into Yarnell (about 3:40-4:40 pm) was a decision made to prorioritze retardant drops on Rex Maughan’s property in area of Peeple’s Valley instead of using the drops to protect Yarnell and Granite Mountain?
If so, who could have authorized this?
There is nothing ( that I know of ) in the ‘public evidence record’ that would indicate that anyone had ‘prioritized’ Rex Maughan’s ( or anyone else’s ) specific property in that later afternoon timeframe.
Exactly WHY Thomas French ( in Bravo 33 ) continued to direct all available Air resources to just ‘finishing up’ that little retardant line project on the north side of the fire ( where only a few already-evacuated residences were at risk ) instead of doing what Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD him to do ( at 3:50 PM ) and ‘switch the focus of Air Support’ to the Yarnell side of the fire remains a mystery.
Even in the full Air-To-Air radio recordings that cover this timeframe… we can certainly HEAR Thomas French keeping that little ‘retardant line’ project on the north side the PRIORITY for ‘Air Support’ ( when the fire was now charging into Yarnell )…
…but we never hear him ( French ) tell any of the other pilots exactly WHY he felt it was so important to ‘finish up’ that little project ( for just a few abandoned structures )… when the REAL priority ( since 3:50 PM ) was the Yarnell side of the fire.
We also don’t have any clear Air-To-Ground radio traffic captures in that timeframe which would indicate if anyone on the ground was also keeping ‘Bravo 33’ from switching the focus of Air Support to Yarnell in that critical time when it needed to happen.
ADOSH was never allowed to ‘interview’ any of the THREE men who were flying aboard ‘Bravo 33’ that afternoon. ( Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross ).
Until there is some evidence to the contrary… it still appears that after Air Attack Rory Collins left the Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM… Thomas French decided ( on his own ) to just ignore anything he had already AGREED to do at 3:50 PM ( head towards Yarnell )… and French just got ‘anal retentive’ and wanted to ‘tidy up’ that now-not-a-priority-because-the-wind-had-reversed little retardant line project that he had been working on up there in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area(s).
By the time he DID finally turn the attention of ‘Air Support’ to the Yarnell side of the fire… it was too late to make any difference. The smoke column had already begun to ‘lay down’ and the only ‘safe’ place left to drop any retardant was there on the north end of town, by that U-Store-It facility and NORTH, into the foothills.
Any ‘opportunity’ to drop any amount of retardant to even try and protect the major parts of Yarnell and Glen Ilah proper had been LOST due to French taking so long to even turn his attention to the Yarnell side of the fire.
Thank you WTKTT. Is there any evidence that Darrell Willis was aware that granite mountain was near Boulder springs ranch and possibly in need of air support during the time that retardant drops were continuing to be carried out in peeples valley when they were needed in Yarnell?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
October 13, 2016 at 2:45 am
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> Is there any evidence that Darrell
>> Willis was aware that granite mountain
>> was near Boulder springs ranch and
>> possibly in need of air support during
>> the time that retardant drops were
>> continuing to be carried out in peeples
>> valley when they were needed in Yarnell?
Just wanted to let you know I am not ignoring this question… but the answer to whether there is any solid ‘evidence’ regarding what Darrell Willis was ( or was NOT ) actually ‘aware of’ that afternoon is not a simple answer… and I am working on a longer response.
Even Darrell Willis’ actual ‘testimony’ to ADOSH investigators ( in TWO separate interviews with them ) is pretty much ‘contradicted’ by his own cellphone records, other people’s testimony, and even things Darrell Willis himself later said in front of cameras and to MEDIA groups like MILITARY.COM.
More later.
It appears that the peeples valley area includes property of weathly people that were likey paying more taxes for fire protection than yarnell. I think that I read that prior to the time that burfiend was directed to focus on yarnell darryl willis was directing retardant drops in the peeples valley area.
Is it likely that willis continued directing the retardant drops in peeples valley after burfiend was directed to focus on Yarnell to provide protection for the more wealthy citizens in peeples valley?
For any person of clout reading these columns and interested in why the retardant was again profusely dropped on the east side of Yarnell in Jumbo Jet loads, let it be known it was directly because the burnout that the local fire department started to supposedly protect the east side of town made those drops necessary. That backburn also caused a larger fire that not only threatened Peeples Valley but continued over the mountain and greatly expanded the fire toward another small community almost directly east of Yarnell. In fact ranches in that area were under mandatory evacuation. But it is profitable to many in these big fires, especially in the hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax money dropped in that agent orange poisonous chemical slop called retardant. Only an uninformed person unwilling to look at the facts would say otherwise.
Our major concern here is the health of individuals exposed to this slop. Yarnell is valuable proof of how this chemical retardant is higly detrimental to the health, especially the elderly, who do have short term to immediate effects upon their well being. The younger set can stand the effects of lung depletion over much longer periods of time, unless their lung health is already diminished.
Zack Ashoor is a great example of that. He wanted to hike the area soon after the Yarnell Hill Fire. He was using a small oxygen breathing thing to get to the top of the Weavers with me. He even hiked right to the fence saying those were his friends and he would stand before any jucdge if he were to be called a criminal for doing so. But Zac and I were both exposed to the chemicals since we crossed those agent orange covered areas many times during the hike. Less than a year later we learned that Zack was dead. Well Joy and I made many hikes up there and likeall of the locals we have been heavily exposed to this agent orange chemical slop that the FS, big business, et. al., want us to believe is a harmless inert substance. They won’t tell you ammonium sulfate and nitrate exposed to burning embers produces cyanide, or that any amount of ammonium gas breathed in will damage lung cells. They certainly do not want you to know the hidden chemicals either and those add up to thousands of gallons now surrounding Yarnell. We howerver are now the great experiment and it s working to kill plenty of elderly.
I did not mention that I have had four heart attacks since these hikes–Joy says five. My lung capacity is now diminished to the point that I can barely walk up my drive without loosing breath. Joy says five attacks, one in Montana after the fire. Now look at Joy, puking blood, having chest problems, tumors expanding, and certainly diminished in her capacity to breath.
This makes me think of ST. George Uranium debacle where the fallout from the Mercury Nevada Nuclear blasts created so much cancer and caught even John Wayne and many of the actors who participated in a movie creating much radioactive dust that created cancers in those people. It only takes one atom of certain radioactive isotopes to start a cancer. I know I am a Uranium miner with over 20 cancers cut from my body all the way from carcinomas to melanomas. These chemicals are deadly and if they do not get you in the short run they will in the longer term once your body immune defenses are lowered due to older age.
I do believe these chemicals are a big economic source for big business and they will do everything in their power and billions to cover up the detrimental effects they are producing on human health. Money to them is the almighty.
**
** KBIC NEWSLETTER FOR OCTOBER
The ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ ( KBIC ) has now published the most recent ‘issue’ of their monthly ‘Newsletter’.
This one has ‘reports’ from their own ‘local’ perspective about the recent rollover fatalities that killed two of their own ‘Beartown Wildland Firefighters’ on August 27, 2016.
According to this KBIC newsletter… Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson really was ‘denied’ access to a ‘public defender’ at his arraingment in Anoka County, Minnesota… but the article makes it sound like it was ( supposedly ) because he had ‘misreported’ his income to the Anoka County DA’s office… and he will be allowed to ‘reapply’ for a ‘public defender’ before he has to face the criminal ‘vehiclular homicide’ charges in court.
NOTE: The KBIC newsletter actually gets the DATE of the rollover accident WRONG. They say it took place on August 28, 2016. It actually took place the day before… August 27, 2016.
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community Newsletter
Issue 147 – October, 2016
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/sites/default/files/news/October%202016.pdf
From this KBIC October newsletter…
—————————————————————————————————
In the early morning hours on Saturday, August 28, 2016, our Beartown Firefighters were dispatched to a fire at Box Canyon in Utah.
The three KBIC vehicles transporting the Beartown firefighters were traveling in a convoy, and in heavy traffic they became separated.
One of these vehicles was involved in a tragic single-vehicle crash that occurred on I-35W in Blaine, Minnesota, which resulted in a roll-over.
There were nine firefighters in the vehicle, two of whom were fatally injured.
With great sadness, the community lost firefighters Alan (AJ) Swartz, age 25, and James (Jimmy) Shelifoe, Jr., age 23, from Baraga, Michigan.
Hospitalized for injuries were: Dave R. Varline, Tyler J. Tolonen, Shashaywin D. Sandman Shelifoe, Ross J. Jaukkuri, Gavin C. Loonsfoot, Joseph Jossens, and Michael A. Johnson.
The driver, Michael Johnson, was released from the hospital and then incarcerated. Johnson was held in the Anoka County Jail on suspicion of criminal vehicular homicide ( two counts ).
Prosecutor’s statement for probable cause alleged that Johnson believed he fell asleep while driving. He admitted to the use of marijuana in the early hours of the day before and had used cocaine three days prior to the accident.
He has recently posted bail and is released waiting further criminal proceedings.
Initially, Johnson was DENIED a public defender as a result of the income he reported to the judge. He will be able to reapply for the public defender assistance.
—————————————————————————————————-
Notes…
“The three KBIC vehicles transporting the Beartown firefighters were traveling in a convoy, and in heavy traffic they became separated.”
This is what was widely reported ( at first )… but this report of ‘separation’ still doesn’t match what is in the eye-witness reports in the Anoka County Prosecutor’s actual criminal complaint filed against Beartown Firefighter Michael Johnson
A copy of that actual Anoka County ‘Criminal Complaint’ is still HERE…
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/20160829200657.pdf
From that document…
——————————————————————————————
The defendant ( Michael Johnson ) was driving the third vehicle ( in the three vehicle convoy ) with the other two ‘in front of him’.
One witness described driving southbound on Highway 35W and seeing the THREE fire truck vehicles ( together ) approaching him at a HIGH RATE OF SPEED. The witness moved to the right lane of traffic to allow the vehicles ( all THREE of them ) to pass him. The witness estimated the vehicles ( all THREE of them ) to be traveling approximately 80 to 90 mph in a 70 mph zone. After the THIRD vehicle passed, the witness observed the THIRD vehicle swerve into the right lane of traffic approximately THREE times. The vehicle then swerved again traveling across the lane of traffic onto the RIGHT side of the roadway. The vehicle attempted to correct itself but traveled BACK ACROSS the highway ultimately crashing into the barrier on the LEFT. The box separated from the cab and rolled SEVERAL TIMES ( causing the actual fatalities ).
Another witness described contacting 911 BEFORE the crash out of CONCERN of the driving conduct of the vehicle. This witness called 911 back after ( also ) observing the crash and provided consistent details regarding the accident.
————————————————————————————————–
The KBIC Newsletter also goes out of its way to ‘quote’ the Criminal Complaint and is sure to mention both the ( alleged ) marijuana use on Johnson’s part that morning… and the part about ‘Cocaine’ some days earlier… but the KBIC Newsletter curiously does NOT mention any of the following ‘details’…
1. That Michael Johnson also said he had basically NO SLEEP for the 28 ( TWENTY EIGHT ) hours preceding the accident.
2. That witnesses reported ALL THREE of the ‘Beartown’ vehicles traveling at 80 to 90 mph in a 70 mph zone.
3. That the other Beartown ‘Crew Carrier’ was eventually ‘stopped’ in a gas station some 2 hours after the accident… and all the firefighters in that other ‘Crew Carrier’ were zip-tied by the police while all of them ( and the Carrier ) were searched for ‘drugs’.
4. That these ‘Crew Carriers’ were bought USED from Albuqueque, New Mexico, in April of 2011 ( 5 years before the accident )… and may or may not have had the proper bolts or ‘secondary safety system’ installed to prevent the Crew Compartment from separating from the chassis in the event of the exact kind of accident that took place on August 13, 2016.
** FUNDRASING
This most recent KBIC ‘Newsletter’ also reports on the ‘Fundraising Efforts’ that have been taking place for the “Beartown Firefighters” since the accident.
The newsletter confirms that at least $20,000 has been raised ( other media reports put the amount at north of $27,000 ) and the newsletter also confirms what recent KBIC Tribal Council meeting ‘minutes’ say… that the Tribe has now created their own ‘Board’ ( along the lines of Sharon Knutson Felix’s ‘Arizona 100 Club’ ) to make all the decision about who gets any of the money… and for what.
But the newsletter does NOT say anything about the fact that the only public decision by this Tribal ‘Beartown Firefighters Relief Board’ so far has been to approve using money to ONLY pay for the funeral expenses of the two deceased ‘Beartown’ firefighters.
From the KBIC October Newsletter…
—————————————————————————————–
A number of fund raising events have occurred throughout Baraga County to help raise financial support for the firefighters and their families who were affected by this tragic accident. A spaghetti dinner and auction were held at the L’Anse VFW on Monday, September 29, 2016, organized by Shayne Foucault, Erica Mukka, and David LeClaire. Foucault stated, “It was an overwhelming success with nearly 700 people in attendance.” The L’Anse, Baraga, Covington, Arvon, and Chassell Fire Departments held “Fill-the-boot” campaigns in a number of locations throughout the community.
Fundraising event proceeds neared $20,000.00 with the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community Tribal Council overseeing the disbursements.
By: Lauri Denomie, Editor
—————————————————————————————————
The newsletter also makes no mention of the issue wherby a private citizen created a ‘GoFundMe’ campaign for the “Beartown Firefighters” just after the accident… but the TRIBE is now insisting that all money raised by that private ‘GoFundMe’ campaign be deposited into the Tribe’s bank accounts ( to also be ‘administered by the Tribe’ )… just because that ‘GoFundMe’ campaign is using the NAME “Beartown Firefighters”.
One of the injured Firefighters who broke his back in TWO places ( Tyler Tolonen ) has recently started a public discussion on his own PUBLIC Facebook page about how these ‘donations’ are being handled.
Tyler Tolonen says the he has not received ANY help from the KBIC Tribal Council, ( except for a gas card, or something like that ) and he wants to know how much money was really raised and where it is going.
The mother of deceased ‘Beartown Wildland Firefighter’ Alan Swartz’s 3 children ( Heather Marie Gauthier ) is stating publicy on Tolonen’s ‘discussion thread’ that while she has received some kind of ‘check’ from Amanda Marsh’s “Eric Marsh Wildland Firefighter Foundation”… she, herself, has also not seen jack shit from the public donations now being ‘managed’ by the KBIC ‘Tribal Council’.
** WHO WAS THE ‘CREW BOSS’ FOR ‘BEARTOWN’
** ON THE DAY OF THE ACCIDENT?
There is also, for the FIRST time, some ‘evidence’ that while it is known that KBIC Tribal Council member and Treasurer ‘Doreen Blaker’ is a ‘long time CREW BOSS’ for the ‘Beartown Firefighters’… that she actually might not have even been WITH them for this trip out to the ‘Box Canyon Fire’.
In this KBIC October newsletter… a ‘Monthly Report’ is being given by the Vice-President of the KBIC Tribal Council… ‘Jennifer Misegan’.
Misegan says ( in the newsletter )…
—————————————————————————————-
The evening of August 27, we were informed of a tragic accident involving our Beartown Firefighters which took the lives of James Shelifoe, Jr. and Alan Swartz. As soon as I heard, I joined many others including President Warren “Chris” Swartz, Jr., Treasurer Doreen Blaker, Director of Fire Management George DeCota, CEO Larry Denomie III, Chief Duane Misegan, Officer Anthony Loonsfoot, and Officer Jake Misegan at the Tribal Police Department. We were all in shock and very upset. Our concern was for the firefighters and their families. We worked to get information out to the Community that evening as rumors were running wild. We later went to the Tribal Center and assisted families with emergency funding to visit their injured firefighters. The following day, some left to go to Minnesota while the rest of us went to work.
—————————————————————————————-
So ( for the first time ) we are seeing some ‘testimony’ ( from Jennifer Misegan ) that Doreen Blaker was still back in Baraga, Michigan on the day of the accident… and that Blaker was one of the Council members who reported to the Tribal Police Department after the accident to help handle the incident from back there in Baraga, Michigan.
It is known that Doreen Blaker was helping to bring the bodies BACK from Minnesota… but this report from Misegan seems to suggest it was Blaker who was one of the ones who ( in Misegan’s words ) “left to go to Minnesota” the day AFTER the accident.
So if ‘Doreen Blaker’ was NOT the ‘acting CREW BOSS’ for this ‘Box Canyon Fire’ assignment… and she was NOT The one driving the lead ‘Crew Boss’ vehicle and leading that game of ‘Chase Me Charlie’ out there in I-35 on August 27, 2016…
…then who WAS?
Who was the actual CREW BOSS for that assignment… and was that the same person who was driving that lead vehicle for that 80-90 mph ‘Chase Me Charlie’ out there on I-35?
And is this the same person who was LETTING exhausted firefighter Michael Johnson DRIVE that day?
Again… that PUBLIC discussion about “How much money has been raised and where is it all going?” that was started by injured Beartown Firefighter Tyler Tolonen is here on his PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/tyler.tolonen
Tyler Tolonen broke his back in TWO places.
Some of the latest PUBLIC posts by Tyler Tolonen…
Tyler Tolonen – 2:28 PM, October 3, 2016
For one the help is not coming from the money its coming from another place and for to I turned a house down for now cuz of my head injury my memory and heads out of whack and after this month and see how i am. And there is going to be a meeting just don’t know when yet there are food card and gas cards being give out and why is this cuz one of the firefighters from the accident doesn’t have a sanifacant other doesn’t have parents he has a brother that has four other kids not even out of school yet helping him and his son out. Yes I made some noise cuz I don’t got money to go get my son to feed my son. So thank you tyler for being the of us to speak up. So when u do want to speak or listen to one side or just what u hear think about it before u talk with this or against this. Its been five weeks not one of us know anything about the money raised and once again if u did read that the help we are gettinf for bills and what not is from a diff place.
Tyler Tolonen – October 3 at 7:03pm
I wish u knew what u where talking about I have a home right now my own place to lay my head and my sons. For my doctors its hard for me to remember all that was said dates and times so I’m staying with my brother form month to month I still can get my own place whenever I want just said I would stay here for now. Its not like they where just handing it over I still have to go through paper work and I have nothing for a house intell I know what I can spend. And the only reason everyone is getting these cards and help is because I asked and it took weeks then I made some noise so sorry lulu ur acting a fool fr no reason. Like I said nothing was moving till I said something and at first they where going to just givee some I said I talked to the others and they need help to with fas food house hold things. But I love how these other guys that where all saying and asking and thanking me after wards are just leaving me out here to fight alone. Come on
Tyler Tolonen – October 3 at 7:06pm
And I don’t want money I want help paying for my truck to be fixed my sons birthday is in a week things for the house I still can get like bed ect. Don’t want the money u ppl need to get that out ur heads theres money to help me and my son tell me how much and I’ll tell u what I want it spent on
** HEATHER MARIE GAUTHIER
She is also participating in this PUBLIC discussion about the donations that were meant to help ALL of the ‘Beartown Firefighters’ ( and their families ) that is currently taking place on Tyler’s Facebook page.
Heather Marie Gauthier is the mother of ( now deceased ) Beartown Firefighter Alan J. ( AJ ) Swartz’s 3 children ( along with 2 others from a previous marriage ).
She had this to say…
Heather Marie Gauthier
AJ was his friend too I didn’t know nobody cared about his death but me all anybody cares about is money wow life is more important I got left wit 5 kids to take care of for the next 16 years by myself he got his life n I understand about what he’s talking about I need money too I havnt got no fucking money wow u act like I got all this money from them I ain’t got shit if u don’t like what I say don’t read it.
Here is life– There is a white statue on the place that the men went down to their deaths. Fuck is it Brandon? Is it Marsh? Marsh killed all those under him and Brandon was a fuck up according to wild land fire fighter opinions–for instance fire fighter safety rules are hillbilly meaning he had no idea of how to stay alive. Frisby saved his ass–let us hope to all the true fucking Irish Gods that it is Frisby and not one of the other killers or assholes that are idiots in that statue. But this is the cookie cutter world living in an imaginary world promoting their bullshit agenda.
So what do we do now, hike up there and pay homage to Donut or Marsh? If so this world is worse fucked up than I originally had thought.
It would still be beyond ‘ironic’ if there ends being a ‘statue’ of a ‘Wildland Fire Lookout’ anywhere up there on that hiking trail… since that is what the men who burned to death did NOT have that day… as they DECIDED to descend into a blind box canyon full of explosive fuel less than 1/2 mile away from a dynamic, wind-driven wildfire.
How sad will it be ( for all concerned ) if only in DEATH do they get the one thing they needed to all stay ALIVE… a “Lookout”.
BTW: At the last meeting of this “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” where they were being shown ( with a Power-Point presentation ) WHY the project did NOT meet the long-standing deadline of June 30, 2016… and EXACTLY what was left to be done with the money they had left…
…there were NO STATUES in the planning anymore.
Just plaques and benches and signage was left to be done.
So if all of a sudden there ARE ‘statues’ appearing out there in that yet-to-be-open-to-the-public Arizona State Park… those ‘statues’ were NOT even in the ‘plans’ or in the ‘budget’ as of the last official meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board itself.
It believe it was Deborah Pfingston ( the mother of deceased GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft ) who first proposed the idea of ‘statues’ out there where the men burned to death.
Her original idea was to have bigger-than-life-size BRONZE statues of each and every one of the deceased Hotshots… somehow ‘lined up’ out there as if in some kind of bizarre ‘post-death’ hiking situation.
That, of course, would have been ( and still would be ) MORE than just a little CREEPY.
That original ‘idea’ was ‘shelved’ when someone informed Pfingston how much 19 larger-than-life REALISTIC bronze statues would actually COST.
They didn’t have near that kind of money.
It will be convoluted if Donut winds up on a statue since he was the one saved from certain death by Frisby.
It ought to be uncomfortable for many Christians since the Jesus statue is at the Shrine and you have that statue looking down on Jesus. That in itself shows the lack of forethought on whoever put up a statue–but there will be a bunch of fire fighters uncomfortable if these bosses or Donut winds up on a statue. They know the truth and what went down and how Donut only got out alive because Frisby saved him. But then someday history will reveal the facts here.
I have not bothered to take a good look at the statue but it can be seen as a white object on the two track. Maybe it is styrofoam since it had to be packed up there.
The sad thing about all this is the continued game playing and not facing the truth of why those men are dead and the fact that the only hero here was the man that saved Donut. And that story ought to be told by Frisby. Well maybe not, since his job and career would be in jeopardy as was seen by the firing of Brown for an example to scare the rest of the people who want to tell what they know.
Reply to Charlie post on October 7, 2016 at 11:18 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I have not bothered to take a good look at the statue
>> but it can be seen as a white object on the two track.
Well… if it’s reading from ‘miles away’ as a WHITE statue… then it’s not BRONZE as was originally planned.
Maybe someone actually read some of the comments here in this ongoing discussion and realized that much BRONZE sitting out in the middle of nowhere… in an ‘unattended’ PUBLIC State Park… had/has a high likelihood of just being STOLEN, at some point.
I also doubt it is actual ‘White Marble’.
Also very expensive. Also likely to be broken up and ‘stolen’.
So maybe it’s actually just statue-grade plaster, or something, made from a ‘mold’ ( perhaps ) so that it can be easily re-poured and replaced if it ever is ‘defaced’ and/or ‘stolen’.
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> The sad thing about all this is the continued game playing
>> and not facing the truth of why those men are dead and
>> the fact that the only hero here was the man that saved
>> Donut. And that story ought to be told by Frisby. Well
>> maybe not, since his job and career would be in jeopardy
>> as was seen by the firing of Brown for an example to scare
>> the rest of the people who want to tell what they know.
Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent ‘Rogers Trueheart Brown’ did, in fact, leave the Blue Ridge Hotshots organization not long after the Yarnell tragedy… but the ‘circumstances’ of his ‘departure’ are still not really known.
It’s doubtful he was actually ‘fired’… since he still works for USFS, and he is still there on the ‘Coconino National Forest’… and his new job actually amounts to a ‘promotion’ to AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer ).
Using the US Forestry PUBLIC online employee search page at…
http://www.fs.fed.us/about-agency/contact-us/employee-search
…and searching for ‘Rogers ( Trueheart ) Brown’ produces the following ( current ) USFS employee listing…
————————————————————
Rogers T Brown
AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer )
Region 3 – Southwestern (Arizona, New Mexico)
R3,Coconino NF,Mogollon Rim RD
928-527-8245 x (phone)
928-527-8265 (fax)
————————————————————
Followup…
‘Arizona State Parks’ has a brand new, totally re-designed WEB site at…
http://azstateparks.com/
There is now also a brand new web-page dedicated to the yet-to-be-opened-to-the-public ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’.
It has a Google-Earth ‘fly over’ movie showing the full length of the trail(s) and it even has the exact spots along the hiking trail where all the 19 ‘markers’ are dedicated to each man who burned to death on June 30, 2013.
The first ‘marker’ you come to after leaving the parking lot is Eric Marsh.
The last marker on the trail just before reaching the ‘Observation Deck’ on the top of the ridge overlooking the blind box canyon belongs to ‘Sean Misner’.
But here is what Arizona Parks is now officially saying about the ‘signage’ that will be installed at the Observation Deck…
—————————————————————
Fly over the site, which begins at the parking lot off Highway 89A at the Park entrance. From there, interpretive signage will lead you up a 2.2 mile trail (yellow line) to the Observation Deck. Along the way, 19 solemn markers, one for each Hotshot, will introduce you to each team member as you make your way to the summit. Once there, additional interpretive signage will tell the full story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and the events of June 30, 2013. From there, visitors can hike down an additional 3/4 mile (orange line) to the Fatality Site, where 19 gabion baskets encircle 19 memorials. A short trail around the site and benches will also be available.
——————————————————————–
“…additional interpretive signage will tell the FULL STORY of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and the events of June 30, 2013.”
The FULL STORY?
Really?
It will be VERY interesting to see what their ( Arizona State Parks ) idea of the ‘FULL STORY’ is for this National Historic Tragedy and “The Greatest Blunder ( so far ) in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
SIDENOTE: Even though this page thoroughly ‘details’ what is supposed to be ‘present’ at this ‘State Park’… there is absolutely NO mention of any ‘statues’ having been ‘installed’ ( yet )… but their ‘funding needs’ actually DO include a reference to the original idea of actually having 19 ‘Statues’ of ALL the men who died installed at some point.
They say they STILL need ANOTHER $400,000 just to pay for the following ( notice the word ‘statues’ included below )…
————————————————————-
FUNDING
An estimated $400,000 is still needed to complete the development of the Memorial Park. The remote location and difficult access to the site requires that equipment and personnel be brought in from around the state to assist with Park construction.
ITEMS STILL NEEDED INCLUDE:
– 19 memorial markers / Statues
– Rope Training/Rescue Equipment
– On-going maintenance of site – Trail support, signage replacement, foilage removal
NOTE: There will be NO restroom facilities OR rangers at this Park location.
THE MEMBERS OF THE MEMORIAL SITE BOARD INCLUDE:
Sue Black – Executive Director of Arizona State Parks (Chairman)
Senator Steve Pierce – (R) AZ
Representative Karen Fann – (R) AZ
John Flynn – Public Safety non-profit representative
Chief Dan Fraijo – Public Firefighters representative
Jeff Whitney – State Forester
Mayor Marlin Kuykendall – Prescott
Amanda Marsh – Relative of fallen Hotshot
Brendan McDonough – Surviving Hotshot crewmember
Lenora Nelson – Yavapai County Resident
Chief Ben Palm – Yarnell Fire District
Supervisor Rowle Simmons – Yavapai County Resident
Chuck Tidey – Yarnell Chamber of Commerce
Chief Darrell Willis – Prescott Fire Department
—————————————————————
ANOTHER SIDENOTE: Notice that suddenly ‘Brendan McDonough’ is once again being listed as a ‘Member’ of this ‘Memorial Site Board. McDonough was, in fact, ‘appointed’ to this Board when it was created… but after a number of meetings… Brendan was ‘removed’ from it because of his failure to attend any of the meetings and even the ‘Minutes’ of the Board stopped listing him as a member of this ‘Board’.
Also… the “difficult access to the site” they are now, themselves, pointing out is only because of their FAILURE to obtain any permissions from any landowners in Yarnell or Glen Ilah to arrange more ‘reasonable’ access to the location.
The ‘landowners’ of Yarnell and Glen Ilah refused to cooperate with the ‘Board’ and didn’t want to have anything to do with the creation of this ‘Memorial’.
Here is a DIRECT link to the new ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ web page on the new Arizona Parks website where it says the the ‘signage’ at the park will…
“…tell the FULL STORY of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and the events of June 30, 2013.”
http://www.granitemountainhotshotsmemorial.org/park-development
Followup…
There have been 8 ( EIGHT ) official meetings of this PUBLIC “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” where they have obeyed the Arizona Open Meetings LAWS and actually published the ‘minutes’ from the meeting.
Brendan McDonough was originally ‘appointed’ to the Board… but has only attended ONE of these EIGHT meetings ( the first one, on November 24, 2014 ).
At each and every subsequent meeting, when Brendan failed to show up… he was still being listed in the ‘minutes’ for each meeting as an ‘absent Board Member’… until the seventh meeting on September 18, 2015.
That’s when they ‘gave up’ on Brendan… and stopped even listing him as an ‘absent Board member’ in the official ‘minutes’ from the meeting(s).
SIDENOTE: The NEXT ‘official’ PUBLIC meeting of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ has been announced. It is supposed to be this coming October 19, 2016, at the Yavapai County Supervisor’s Building ( 1015 Fair Street in Prescott )… in the ‘Gladys Gardener’ room.
Even though Arizona Parks has a brand new top-level website… the page that has always existed on their web server dedicated to this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ is still the same… and is still located at this URL ( as one of the ‘Advisory Committees’ to Arizona State Parks Department ).
This is still the place where this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ is required by Arizona Open Meetings Laws to publish the meetings of all of their PUBLIC meetings within 72 hours after the meeting has taken place ( regardless of whether the ‘draft minutes’ have been approved yet )…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
There was another meeting back on August 17, 2016… but ( as usual ) they continue to ignore Arizona Open Meetings laws and there are still no ‘minutes’ from that meeting published even now… as late as October 8, 2016.
o much complication. I looked at a lady’s leg–he husband a retired Christian minister. Good lord of the Irish. it was disturbing to see that. I know these people, they are friends, and now you do not believe this agent orange retardant that you love to see videos of its poisonous drop being done. Then you have not seen this womans leg swollen three times its size and oozing bloods and fluids and her husbands distressed look.
But she is only one among the many casualties here at Yarnell. You know, as a uranium miner I have had more than 20 cancers cut from my body–from carcinoma to melanoma to who knows all the names. Now you might say now because all my siblings have had none of these that it is a coincidence. But any cowboy will tell you too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. And any chemist will tell you once you drop the 95% ammonium sulfate or nitrate on burning embers you will get cyanide–if you do not believe it use your computer and google how to make cyanide. So believe that this agent orange is inert, but then idiots are those that listen to those making the big bucks., Add to the cyanide the hidden chemicals under trade secrets acts and you have a deadly concoction and no wonder this lady from Yarnell is dying with her leg oozing away her life force.
Reply
Charlie says
OCTOBER 6, 2016 AT 10:16 PM
husband a retired Christian minister.
Charlie may not be aware but the couple he mentioned are the current ACTIVE pastor and his failing health wife at First Baptist Church of Congress Arizona; not retired…celebrating 50 years of Ministry and YOU are welcome to join Sunday October 9th to help celebrate their 50th and service starts at 11am with a fabulous dinner to follow and there will be special presentations and music and guest speakers and the history of this church- Sonny, those people you are talking about have always been so gentle and kind to us and they said they hope you will come for the fun and food…I go because I know many who go to that church so for support so I hope to see you Sunday Sonny then we can go from there to the flea market that you like if you want since Friday/Saturday is my appt. days—directions here:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/First-Baptist-Church/966658980037322
Oh, I forgot to add, this man, a Christian Minister, retired, told me his house roof was in the photos after the fire orange and red, something he could not understand. Well duh, they dumped agent orange directly on his house as they did many others in Yarnell and Glen Isla. A white roof or even a black one does turn orange or red after retardant is dumped on it. Then the rains run the chemical off into your yard so you get to breath them daily aferward. These heroes have killed many but have statues to lie to us otherwise.
Charlie-
tomorrow can you see where EXACTLY on the 2 track these white things are that Yavapai County person shared helicopters were actively placing out there- thanks.
see if it is ABOVE deployment two track or over by lunch break area—
you will see it through your binoculars from your own property-
I think all of us, once we have the facts are unhappy with what we are given — a bunch of lies to hide the truth. These white statues are part of it. The GMHS were like all of us– but their leaders and their leaders leaders fucked up royally. They became the formulators of the wild land fire fighters worst disaster that killed 19 young wild land fire fighters needlessly. Yet every move has been made to assure that their reputations remain intact. The taxpayer, the loved ones and everyone concerned has been diligently lied too in a game that has only promoted the same errors that will continue to take young wild land fire fighter lives. Donut, Marsh and those that bossed these men are not heroes, but instead wannabees and have killed these young men. They want the public t0 buy their lies and bull shit but buyer beware–you have bought a lie.
What are these white statues?
These are statues of the wild land firefighters and I don’t know how many will be placed up there–maybe all the men. It will be an extention of the Shrine that lies below–once you venerate Jesus, you can do the same for the firemen by hiking the long tedious trail up from the parking lot memorial about halfway down the Yarnell Hill off HWY 89,
Of course the real purpose behind all this ballyhoo is to keep the public mind away from the facts of what really went on during the Yarnell Fire Debacle. There are millions in tax dollars being squandered along with needless killing of wild land fire fighters–some people making enormous sums of money from these fire fights, while the poor grunt remains poor.
The toxicity of that agent orange retardant is to the extreme–people, especially the elderly and those with compromised health suffered here so the death toll is highly skewed. The experimental release of over 230,000 gallons during the Yarnell fire on houses and near residences has proven that. But to add to it the recent Tenderfoot fire and the local backburn brought in another load of toxins from Jumbo jets right next to residences on the east side of this small community. So the experiment goes on and so will the illnesses from these toxins.
It reminds us of the Uranium explosions that poisoned the lands around Mercury. I worked near that site in a tungsten mine for Union Carbide back in the 70’s. It is well known now about the effects of radiation–but few really know the chemistry and how this ammonium nitrate and sulfate slop mixed with unknown chemicals are certain health hazards, especially when subjected to heat and the burning embers of a wildfire.
**
** LOLO HOTSHOT CODY FORGEA SAYS FIRST-YEAR
** LOLO HOTSHOT JUSTIN BEEBE DIED “WITH A SAW IN HIS HAND”
We still don’t know much about the actual circumstances of first-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe’s death on August 13, 2016… but senior Lolo Hotshot Cody Forgea has ‘confirmed’ that Beebe died “with a saw in his hand”.
And no one who is talking about the incident is using the word SNAG anymore, as was first being reported.
It is still unclear, however, whether Justin Beebe was killed by a tree that he, himself, might have been ‘actively cutting down’… or another tree being ‘actively cut down’ near him that fell off target… or whether it really WAS a ‘snag’ that killed him.
Beebe was a first-year Hotshot… but was already being allowed to ( in Cody Forgea’s own words ) “take his turn using the saw”… and that is when he was killed.
Beebe was ( supposedly ) no stranger to a chainsaw.
His parents have already reported that he used to cut down trees with one back him in Vermont, before he ever became a Wildland Firefighter.
Wildland Firefighter
Article Title: Forest Service Hotshot Laid to Rest
Published: August 23, 2016
By: Bill Carey in Aviation, News, Wildland / WUI LODD
http://www.wildlandfirefighter.com/2016/08/23/forest-service-hotshot-laid-to-rest/
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
Memorial service held for hotshot killed fighting Nevada wildfire
PHOTO:
Justin Beebe’s parents, and others, at the Memorial Service held in Missoula, Montana, on August 20, 2016
PHOTO CAPTION:
Fallen U.S. Forest Service firefighter Justin Beebe’s parents Betsy, front, and Sheldon Beebe look out over the crowd before memorial service for Justin Beebe, Saturday, Aug. 20, 2016, in Missoula, Mont. Justin Beebe was killed Aug. 13, while battling a wildfire in Great Basin National Park in eastern Nevada. ( Photo by Tommy Martino / The Missoulian via AP )
MISSOULA, Mont. (AP) — Hotshot firefighting crews lined a lane in Missoula on Saturday to honor a U.S. Forest Service firefighter who was killed battling a wildfire in Great Basin National Park in eastern Nevada.
They were there to pay their respects to Justin Beebe, who died Aug. 13 when he was struck by a tree while fighting a 7-square-mile blaze ignited by lightning Aug. 8 about 200 miles northeast of Las Vegas.
Beebe was a member of the Lolo Hotshots based in Missoula, one of a number of elite Forest Service crews called to fight the most dangerous wildfires in the West.
Those attending the memorial service included his parents, Sheldon and Betsy Beebe of Vermont, his sister, Jessica and his fiancee, Jennifer Zaso, both trauma nurses in Boulder, Colorado, the Missoulian reported.
There were about 15 fire crews present, from Montana, Idaho, Arizona and the Blackfeet Nation.
Shawna Legarza, national director of fire and aviation management for the Forest Service and a former Hotshot, said it takes a special person to be a Hotshot.
Cody Forgea, senior firefighter for the Lolo Hotshots, called Beebe a “little brother.”
Forgea said the crew had a light breakfast the day Beebe died before climbing 1,100 vertical feet in 50 minutes to continue fighting the fire, digging fire lines and sawing trees.
Beebe died during his turn sawing, with “sweat on his brow, ash on his boots and a saw in his hand,” Forgea said.
Beebe will be buried in his home state of Vermont.
————————————————————————————-
“Cody Forgea said the crew had a light breakfast the day Beebe died before climbing 1,100 vertical feet in 50 minutes to continue fighting the fire, digging fire lines and sawing trees. Beebe died during his turn sawing, with “sweat on his brow, ash on his boots and a SAW IN HIS HAND,” Forgea said.”
By the way… assuming Lolo Hotshot Cody Forgea has the ‘numbers’ right… then the ‘ascent rate’ for the Lolo Hotshots for that ’50 minute hike’ after their ‘light breakfast’ would have been 22 feet per minute… or right around 1.3 feet in elevation every 3.7 seconds.
Also notice who attended the Beebe memorial in Missoula.
Gary Olson’s old ‘buddy’ ( and now head of all of US Forestry )… Shawna Legarza,
You know… the one who sat across the table from Gary Olson and admitted she KNEW she was about to ‘sign off’ on a FALSE ‘fatality report’… but she was going to do it, anyway.
Followup…
This Cody Forgea guy ( a senior firefighter for the Lolo Hotshots ) actually took the podium at Justin Beebe’s memorial and some other articles report more about what he had to say.
One other article reports that Forgea said Justin Beebe had actually “taken his shift” as a ‘sawyer’ that day for what they thought was going to be their last shift on that fire.
The Missoulian
Article Title: Memorial service for Lolo Hotshot killed in Nevada draws fire crews from across the West
Published: Aug 20, 2016 – By: PETER FRIESEN
http://missoulian.com/news/local/memorial-service-for-lolo-hotshot-killed-in-nevada-draws-fire/article_a026a2c9-b8e1-5f3c-88c7-b59f8ce08f14.html
Notice again that no articles are using the word SNAG anymore.
Now it’s all just a generic reference to “a falling tree”.
From that article…
———————————————————————————-
Beebe, 26, who had been with the Lolo Hotshots just seven months, was killed by a falling tree on Aug 13, 2016.
Beebe, carrying 70 pounds of equipment, took Cody Forgea’s place as a SAWYER during what Forgea thought would be their last shift fighting that fire.
———————————————————————————-
In this article… same guy ( Lolo Hotshot Cody Forgea ) makes a point that Justin Beebe was carrying MORE than his ‘fair share’ of load during that arduous hike/climb to the work location where Beebe would then be killed…
Montana Public Radio
Article Title: Thousands Gather To Rember Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe, ‘Little Brother’
Published: Aug 20, 2016 – By Mara.Silvers
http://mtpr.org/post/thousands-gather-rember-lolo-hotshot-justin-beebe-little-brother#stream/0
—————————————————————————–
Senior Firefighter Cody Forgea was with him that day in Nevada, and recalls the rookie hauling more than his fair share of gear.
“Beebe stayed on our heels the entire hike, carrying an excess of 70 pounds of gear and equipment, he never fell back. Our little brother was doing it.”
Assistant Superintendent Faiella was also there.
“So then we’re out there, on that day. And I hear, and I make my way. And it’s my boy, and it’s not good. But we pull through it. And it happened. And there’s nothing that can prepare you for that moment or nothing that can prepare you to be a speaker at some place like this. But we stuck together, as Beebe would want us to, and did our best. And now we’re here.”
—————————————————————————–
Joy thanks for good digging. Is your foia documents up on your hiking link or can you put the link to your foia materials here so we can all look at it? If you need money for your foia we can all chip in a little or I will anyways. Thanks.
Diane-
This fire and it was horrific but my beliefs begin before this fire and seeing the patterns of other fires to this fire…
In all my interviews I do not think anyone that was there at the rescue stage turned into recovery and stayed over night felt they were disturbing an investigation scene nor was it ever looked at as a crime scene — more like 19 heroes just died—
and since day one I so GET the mental turmoil they faced and still do with folks like us keep asking and keep looking as all they are trying to do is MOVE FORWARD/let it be….
from the horror they saw…and stayed there ALL night…from direct rescue to even Donut and Willis and Corey…so many to name off…
my concerns always has been though WHAT was removed from their bodies and equipment before the medical investigator arrived…and by whom…if at all—
or personal items once bodies were removed and was still there-
what made it to the final assessment “correctly” and with pureness…
and the complete mental health of those who were THERE than had went to the funerals—that had to be hard…
I always did wonder how the award system fell for the people who were THERE—how each one was treated and was it fair and fairly among them- who was ousted… and why…
these were HARD and challenging times…
and then there is “US” who come to a blog and we do not say hey we hung out with so and so…no we are just trying to make sense of it all…
with no help from the people who could but in all fairness this was an under investigation event than litigation so to protect the entities it is TRUE and people need to respect RTS for the limitations he can provide but yes it is true everything had to get prior approval and use FOIA routes in this all—
My beef in this Diane is the delegation of authority from 10am-10pm 6-30-13 from the fires to the recovery to overnight and I wish we knew more there…
initial examinations and interviews that never made it to public reports—also wish there was more public data on the fairness of the loved ones in the aftermath and don’t mean to forefront one with a name but there is one who behind the scenes did not get treated right and it may appear publicly she was but no way…nope.
I support RTS recent topics based on my interviews…my investigations and the foias….and I am sorry to see so much limitations…and for those who feel SAFETY MATTERS –those people seeking “change” will be on the DO NOT TALK TO LIST to certain fire entities and will fall back to speaking public on the LCES and 10&18—and thank you Paul because you just gave me like the golden wonka ticket…I have new leads and I cannot right now do them—pretty rough ill—but something to God-speed recover quick look forward to…I do have a question for RTS
RTS- do you feel any changes need to be made in the firefighting and fire aviation industry? does it require more studies vs investigations? do you think the learning curve in your industry needs another look at it?
ok. don’t answer
really if you really do presently work for them- serious.
I was just saying…
Since day one I felt aerial needed an in depth study being there was more there obvious to only those who know that section—
Another thing- the foias I have got I cannot UNDERSTAND any person writing a book does not READ or get their own BEFORE writing their books—I know alot is out of my league or not for my eyes—especially private ones from loved ones—but it is a MUST if you are to learn on the YHF…my only suggestion get commercial purpose because I wish I could be more detailed—I feel like RTS.
…I even have the foia logs to who asked for the data and I am really shocked that the woman who asked me she has no angle or agenda but what she can do to help the hikers back in 2013 and I said cell records yet she is the one who has ALOT of FOIAS requested and some completed and never spoke on them but nothing in her request match up to what the hikers wanted…YES PEOPLE I not only ask for my own foias but I do see the public logs of what YOU asked for—you can learn alot that way—
also who is Steve Hattenbach you mention below wwtktt; I gotta spend time learning about him…
is he part of the well played narratives I have seen?
Also always people think POST…this fire should of bedded down (dead) (quiet) …did it ever bed down from 6-28-13? I believe on there own the fire would of went out because I saw it..so I wish there was more data shown public on that topic…
also foias are great to learn about john dougherty-
thank you John for being the VOICE.
you learn alot about Kyle Dickman as well-pretty favored fella especially in comparison to John D.
remember Dewanna in evacuation- I have the details to WHO she was talking about-
why? by mere chance in foia…another area to look into further…
It is neat to learn when you ask for ALL how some cannot be in it for their own study/research purposes—
I like the ABC news fella-
foias is the best book to read on the YHF-
Sonny- what is a CISM? let me just say this to you Sonny—you innocently told about my missing sd card in evacuation to wrong person…wait until I see you to explain…now things add up…
good night. good to see you Sonny. You looked like you had a fun weekend. 🙂
So I do not offend or disturb this loved ones life…if this lady and I got together and were able to freely correspond in person with no bs laws on how we got our data…I 100% know the gathering of the two would be a grand slam…but life is what it is…
The governor wrote back. They are reviewing my data.
The Phlebotomists from Scottsdale just left my home a bit ago and again God is good. The guy who drew blood use to work with Ben Palm. So great to see his insights and I am spot on when I keep digging…
Small world..let’s sing…
Its a small world after all…
Disney here we come.
It’s a small world after It’s a small world, it’s a small world
It’s a small world, it’s a small world
It’s a world of laughter, a world of tears
It’s a world of hope and a world of fears
There’s so much that we share, that it’s time we’re aware
It’s a small world after all
It’s a small world after all, it’s a small world after all
It’s a small world after all, it’s a
…its a small small world…
Disney credit.
Thank you Jason for showing up today.
Type6..I am migrating data right now and hiring a legal person this Winter to find out my capabilities because it sure needs a world to see it versus housewife hiker me. So working on that. I cannot take funds God said long ago in this journewoof truth and He said I would hit dark spots but with sunny sunshine Sonny out there living a free good life and still wants to keep a knowing muah than that gives me able time to focus there…but health is my immediate and my husband is like ugh because I put Christmas boxes in the spare room as I start to make room for my video area where I will begin to video every piece of data as it was timelined since the yhf with my commentary as well as have special guest commentaries as I show it all as we got it. That way I am not putting it on IM which is controversial as a paid makes money takes donation site but I will have it tied to my google+ links along with others. That is best public way to do it.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on October 3, 2016 at 4:59 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> The absence of gps devices would support the narrative
>> that nobody knew where the men were?
Well… I suppose so… but in all truth they ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the rest of the SAIT ) could have easily maintained that ‘fiction’ even IF the GPS Unit that was known to have been carried by Robert Caldwell had NOT just ‘totally disappeared’ and even if it HAD ‘valid data’ on it.
Even if that ‘GPS data’ for Granite Mountain had been able to show EXACTLY where they were… and when… Mike Dudley and the SAIT could have still said “no one knew where they were” and could have still put out their bald-faced LIE that there was a ’30 minute communication blackout’ that afternoon.
But there is at least some ‘testimony’ ( from Mike Dudley himself ) that says there was ‘no recoverable data’ from any Granite Mountain GPS Unit.
If Mike Dudley is to be believed at all, at any time, about anything ( user choice )… then while he still does not make it clear if the mysterious GM GPS Unit(s) ever did end up in the SAIT’s possession… there was no ‘recoverable data’ from either Caldwell’s KNOWN GPS handheld from his right-pack-strap… or any of the other ( possibly ) 4 or 5 GPS Units McDonough said the GM Crew normally had with them.
Paul Musser was the ‘OPS2 Planning Chief’ for Roy Hall’s ‘Type 2 SHORT’ team that showed up in Yarnell on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013.
Paul Musser was a 21 year Type 1 Hotshot veteran before turning to ‘contract’ work for Arizona Forestry.
Paul Musser was the ‘Crew Captain’ ( Assistant Superintendent ) of the ‘Eldorado Hotshots’ ( based on the USFS Eldorado National Forest in California ) for 6 years, from 1983 to 1989.
Then, for 15 years, from 1990 to 2005, Paul Musser was the ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Flagstaff Hotshots’ based on the Coconino National Forest / Blue Ridge Ranger District in Arizona, along with the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’, ‘Mormon Lake’ Hotshots and the ‘Happy Jack’ Hotshots.
Paul Musser ‘retired’ from ‘Hotshotting’ with/for USFS in 2006 and then started ‘double-dipping’ out of retirement as an OPS level contractor for Arizona Forestry and other Incident Management teams.
But here he is… in the following email dated June 30, 2014 ( yes.. the very day of the first anniversary of the Yarnell tragedy )… saying he was now ‘working’ for the Arizona Attorney General’s ( AG ) office and helping them with their legal case AGAINST the widows and family members of the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’.
The ‘timing’ on his email matches ‘discussions’ that were then taking place on this very InvestigativeMEDIA forum, after poster ‘calvin’ had discovered that ‘in plain sight’ photograph of that ‘Oregon 450 GPS Handheld’ unit attached to Robert Caldwell’s right-pack-strap. The discussions also revealed that Brendan McDonough HAD told ADOSH investigators that Granite Mountain usually did have ( perhaps ) 4 or 5 handheld GPS Units with them every time they went on an assignment.
OPS2 Paul Musser was now ‘working’ for the Arizona Attorney General and he seemed to have been ‘informed’ of this ‘evidence’ that was emerging here on this forum… so it appears he thought he better get with Mike Dudley about it and see what the TRUTH was.
So here is former Hotshot Superintendent and ‘Planning OPS2’ at Yarnell, Paul Musser, asking SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley about Granite Mountain’s GPS Units…
——————————————————————————————-
From: PAUL DEBORAH OMLS MUSSER ( mailto: dmuss9 (at) xxx.com )
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 6:51 PM
To: Dudley, Mike -FS
Subject: Yarnell
Mike I have been doing a lot of work on Yarnell for the AG.
A question I have is were any of the Granite Mt GPS units in working order and if so were they checked for track logs or way points from the 30th and what base map they had.
Paul Musser
928-853-XXXX dmuss9 (at) xxx.com
——————————————————————————————-
Again… notice the DATE on this email from Paul Musser to Mike Dudley.
Paul Musser sent it on the very day of the first anniversary of the Yarnell tragedy, June 30, 2014… at 6:51 PM in the evening.
And here is SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s email response to Yarnell OPS2 Paul Musser, now working FOR the Arizona Attorney General and AGAINST the Granite Mountain Hotshot family members.
Mike Dudley responded to Paul Musser just 13 hours later… on the morning after the first anniversary of the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots…
——————————————————————————————–
From: Dudley, Mike -FS
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 8:21 AM
To: ‘PAUL DEBORAH OMLS MUSSER’
Subject: RE: Yarnell
Paul,
We did not have any GPS records available or recoverable from the GMIHC.
The only GPS data came from the BRIHC, their captain like to carry his own
personal GPS and he kept that on all day. That data is part of the case file.
Hope all is well, all things considered. MD
Mike Dudley
Director State & Private Forestry lntermountain I Northern Regions
801-625-XXXX / mdudley (at) fs.fed.us / h t t p://www.fs.usda.gov/goto/rlr4spf
———————————————————————————————-
Notice that SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley does NOT say, flat-out, that there were NO GPS Units ever recovered from the deployment site.
What Mike Dudley ( carefully and craftfully ) says is that they had no ‘records’ because nothing was ‘recoverable’.
So maybe the SAIT actually DID, somehow, end up in possession of at least the GPS Handheld Unit that was KNOWN to have been attached to Robert Caldwell’s right-pack-strap all day… ( or maybe even some of the other GPS Units McDonough says were ‘out there’ with the GM Crew )… but ( according to Dudley, anyway ) none of those GPS Units actually ended up having any ‘recoverable data’.
SIDENOTE: Notice, also, one of Mike Dudley’s now-famous ‘snide remarks’ as he closed his email to Paul Musser…
“Hope all is well, all things considered. MD”
Dudley was commenting on the fact that OPS2 Paul Musser had to be ‘working’ for the Arizona Attorney General at all… “all things considered”… and help them fight off the widows and family members of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Throughout the USFS emails obtained via FOIA request(s)… if it had to do with either the MEDIA or with the ‘lawsuits’… or anyone ‘criticizing’ the SAIT ‘report’… Mike Dudley usually had a ‘snide remark’ to make to whoever he was corresponding with.
I was surprised to learn that Paul Musser was working with Arizona Attorney General’s office to oppose widows and family members from the Yarnell Hill fire.
Was he assigned that job?
Reply to Diane lomas post on October 5, 2016 at 9:43 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I was surprised to learn that Paul Musser was working with
>> Arizona Attorney General’s office to oppose widows and family
>> members from the Yarnell Hill fire.
>>
>> Was he assigned that job?
The circumstances under which former Flagstaff Hotshot Superintendent ( for 15 years ) and Yarnell ‘Planning OPS2’ Paul Musser came to be ( in his own words in his own email ) “doing a lot of work on Yarnell for the Arizona Attorney General’s Office” are not fully known.
I doubt he was flat-out ASSIGNED the task of helping the lawyers for the Arizona Attorney General’s office mount a ‘defense’ against the lawsuits filed by the GM family members.
It’s probably more a situation where he was asked to help them ‘defend’ against the family lawsuits… and he agreed to do so.
It’s also not known if ( or how much ) Paul Musser might have been being PAID to be doing this ‘work’ for the AG lawyers.
Just based on his email to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley… at least one of his ‘roles’ in the defense against the lawsuits seems to have been as a ‘fact checker’.
It’s very odd that someone who would most certainly have been called to the stand as a ‘witness’ ( had the ‘wrongful death lawsuits’ proceeded to trial ) would have also been actually been WORKING ( paid or not ) for the ‘defense’.
That’s called “conflict of interest”.
In other words…
If the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits had proceeded to trial… and the plaintiffs wanted to call Yarnell ‘Planning OPS2’ Paul Musser to the witness stand… and it ALSO became known ( to the court ) that he had been ( in his own words ) ““doing a lot of work on Yarnell for the Arizona Attorney General’s Office”…
…then the lawyers for the GM Family Members would have had every right to ask the judge in the case to allow them to treat Mr. Paul Musser as a “hostile witness”.
And if any of the 135+ ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits end up being allowed to proceed to trial… same story.
If Mr. Paul Musser ends up being called as a ‘witness’ in any of THOSE trials ( highly likely )… the plaintiff’s lawyers can/should be allowed to treat him as a “hostile witness”.
In most cases… a “hostile witness” can be asked ‘questions’ on direct examination that are not normally permitted. It gives the lawyers a wider latitude for ‘questioning’ that person if/when they finally get them up on the witness stand.
When reading the foias there is alot of conflict of interest areas…it is dumb founding that noone who wrote books got the right foias..only ones to fit their narratives…but what does some in foia logs even asking for one…its weird some of the data they request…later on pc i will mention some since that area is not non commercial and is public…should i wwtktt or leave it alone point out the one…im in the sauna so no pc or cells so bye for now
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
October 5, 2016 at 12:49 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> When reading the foias there is alot of conflict of
>> interest areas…it is dumb founding that noone who
>> wrote books got the right foias..only ones to fit their
>> narrative
Yes. ‘Dumb founding’ is the right phrase.
That there have been THREE BOOKS written/published about the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’… and not ONE of those authors took the time or the opportunity to talk to the people they SHOULD have been talking to ( or obtaining the right information ) about what really happened on June 30, 2013.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> but what does some in foia logs even asking for
>> one…its weird some of the data they request…later
>> on pc i will mention some since that area is not
>> non commercial and is public…should i wwtktt or
>> leave it alone point out the one…im in the sauna
>> so no pc or cells so bye for now
Joy… as I have said before… the information in your possession now BELONGS to YOU.
You are NOT writing a for-profit BOOK ( as others have ).
You are NOT trying to “sell the information for profit”.
Whatever you have now been supplied via valid/legal FOIA request(s) is yours to do whatever you like with.
If they didn’t meant for you to have something… and forgot to REDACT something… that really is “tough shit” at this point.
They had their opportunity to ‘claim valid exemptions’ and REDACT anything they really didn’t want the PUBLIC to see… and if they did NOT avail themselves of that opportunity… that is now THEIR ‘problem’.
If it was released in response to a valid “Freedom of Information Act” request… then it is now, literally, “Free Information”.
Its not just the foia data and hence why i said best for mw to hire legal representative to help me do it proper to ensure no fall back cronyism nepotism actions. I am working on it though. I just have a scan this week and next week 3 ultrasounds and a thermogram so I can finally pin down my body bs and get that going or none of the information mean a thing if I am ill and cannot process an organized way to do it. Maybe an old hs pal who knows that area can make spare time on helping but alot of folks I know dont want to waste their energy or breathe on yhf or any fire because they see nothing will change and we will always be the blog with problems…
**
** DID DPS OFFICER DANIEL KNIGHT CONFIRM THAT ERIC MARSH HAD MADE
** IT ALL THE WAY TO THE BOULDER SPRINGS RANCH?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on October 2, 2016 at 4:53 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> So—it sounds like Darell Willis and Cory Moser made the decisions in those first
>> hours at the deployment site as to how to proceed and YCSO officials deferred.
>>
>> Is that accurate?
Yes.
That is what the ‘testimony’ in the public evidence record ( and subsequent media interviews with Prescott Firefighter Cory Moser ) indicates.
One example: From Darrell Willis’ own ( typed ) Unit Log…
———————————————————-
Date: 6/30/2013
Time: 2000 ( 8:00 PM )
Determined I would work my way in with a number of other friends to GUARD and PROTECT the scene until investigation was complete in the morning.
———————————————————–
But I wanted to point something out that I neglected to mention down below where this ‘conversation’ about YCSO and DPS personnel actually started.
Mike Dudley and the SAIT actually DID officially ‘interview’ at least ONE DPS Police Officer who was working the Yarnell Hill Fire all day on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
His name was Daniel Knight.
DPS Officer Daniel Knight was ( apparently ) the DPS Officer who arrived first thing that morning on Sunday, June 30, 2013 with the DPS “Mobile Command Center MotorHome” and he remained ‘working’ in Yarnell all day and right on through the ‘deployment’ later that afternoon.
Buried in the SAIT ‘Yarnell Investigation Notes’ ( YIN ) document, on PDF page 34 ( of 60 ) pages, there are some ‘notes’ from this Interview the SAIT conducted with DPS Officer Daniel Knight.
NOTE: The SAIT interview notes are famously ‘obtuse’, ‘incomplete’ and ‘disjointed’… and the notes from this SHORT interview with DPS Officer Daniel Knight are no exception.
————————————————————————————————
SAIT investigator Lance ( Carbone ) met with Daniel Kight, DPS officer – 07/08/2013
He was at Yav County SO across from FD 2030 reverse 911 advised 1hr evac on the next call. Potential evacs…the am briefing was 0700.
0930 going to Peoples valley fire going ne wind driven
1012 volunteer Fire Department for potential evacuations,
1100 volunteers start at AA Ranch not long after crossed the rd.
Fire was w/ in 1000ft from school. Over that ridge 1115-1130 very close to school.
1130-1145 fire at peoples valley school, when VLAT shows up. Moved motor home command form school to helibase.
1430-1500 there was large cell over spruce mtn, to the nth wind shifted wall of flames headed to Yarnell. Predicted winds, pant legs were Whipping.
1550 call to supt Yarnell was going to burn all hell is braking lose.
1630 he was at ICP AA Prescott fire truck hit that rd sideways
1900 notified of fatalities. “Eric being into the helm ranch…Cortez pat was talking to individual. Crew was walking towards us Eric heard on crew net and left.
————————————————————————————————
** INTERESTING THINGS FROM THIS INTERVIEW WITH DPS OFFICER DANIEL KNIGHT
Notice this entry from the ‘interview’ with Officer Knight…
1550 call to supt Yarnell was going to burn all hell is braking lose.
This ‘testimony’ from DPS Officer Daniel Knight seems to say that at 3:50 PM, HE actually CALLED his own DPS Police ‘Superintendent’ and told him “all hell was now breaking lose” in Yarnell.
1550 ( 3:50 PM ) is the exact same moment when Air Attack Rory Collins is heard talking to Thomas French in Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ and telling him there is now (quote) “A heck of a lot fire headed towards Yarnell”… and Air Attack Rory Collins tells him to switch the FOCUS of ‘Air Support’ to the Yarnell side of the fire. This is the radio exchange captured in one of the Panebaker videos where we also hear Thomas French ‘acknowledging’ that ‘directive’ from Air Attack and he says he is (quote) “headed that way” ( at 3:50 PM ). But Thomas French did no such thing. He would not actually “head that way” ( to the Yarnell area ) for another 40 minutes and by then it was too late for any ‘Air Support’ to make any difference on that side of the fire.
But the OTHER ‘very interesting’ thing seen in these SAIT Interview Notes with DPS Officer Daniel Knight has always been that final ( mysterious ) entry from his interview…
1900 notified of fatalities. “Eric being into the helm ranch…Cortez pat was talking to individual. Crew was walking towards us Eric heard on crew net and left.
Notice the references to “Eric”
There have really only ever been TWO ‘possibilities’ here.
1. Officer Daniel Knight was talking about fellow DPS Officer “Eric Tarr”
** OR **
2. Officer Daniel Knight was talking about “Eric Marsh”
And also notice the specific reference to “crew net”.
DPS Officers do NOT have ( or use ) a “Crew Net” radio frequency like Type 1 IHC Hotshots do.
So everybody take a deep breath here and allow me to try and ‘parse’ what this mysterious testimony from DPS Officer Daniel Knight might actually MEAN… based on the TWO ‘possibilities’ with regards to the name “Eric”.
I’m going to do that with TWO separate ‘Replies’ because… well… this is going to take some careful explaining to cover BOTH of the ‘possibilities’ here… and this might get ‘a little long in the tooth’…
** IF DPS OFFICER DANIEL KNIGHT WAS TALKING ABOUT
** FELLOW DPS OFFICER “ERIC TARR”
DPS Officer/Paramedic “Eric Tarr” was assigned to ( and had arrived that day in ) DPS Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’. That DPS Helicopter did nothing for most of the day but fly TWO ‘RECON’ missions. One was in the morning and both Field OPS1 Todd Abel and Planning OPS2 Paul Musser were ‘onboard’ for that first RECON flight. So Officer Eric Tarr ‘sat that one out’ and was NOT aboard ‘Ranger 58’ for that morning RECON.
But Planning OPS2 Paul Musser was too busy to go on the SECOND RECON mission that day, circa 2:00 PM. So DPS Officer Eric Tarr WAS ‘onboard’ Ranger 58 along with Field OPS1 Todd Abel for that SECOND RECON mission that day.
Other than those 2 recon missions… the 3 DPS Officers assigned to Helicopter Ranger 58 ( Pilot Clifford Brunsting, DPS Officer Charles Main, and DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr ) just ‘sat around’ the rest of the day waiting for something to do.
That is… until the DEPLOYMENT happened.
Then DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 had a LOT to do.
DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 is the aircraft that found the shelters and the bodies… and DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr then became the first living person to enter the deployment area on the ground and confirm the fatalities.
But until all THAT happened…
Their own testimony says they remained close the Helicopter all day where it was staged up at the Helibase by Hays Ranch Road.
So while it is possibile that DPS Officer Daniel Knight had some ‘interaction’ with fellow DPS Officer Eric Tarr that day… it was probably ‘brief’ since they were both there in Yarnell with different ‘jobs’ to do that day.
But since this section is about ‘assuming’ that Officer Knight WAS talking about his fellow officer ‘Eric Tarr’ in his SAIT interview… let’s look at what Officer Knight actually said and see if it makes any sense that his mention of “Eric” actually meant “Eric Tarr”.
I’m going to ‘break apart’ the SAIT notes themselves and take each part of what Officer Knight said one by one to see if there could be a ‘fit’ and/or if it could ‘make sense’…
1900 notified of fatalities.
This would ‘fit’. Eric Tarr is actually the DPS Officer who made the first ‘announcement’ about the fatalities over HIS DPS radio channel(s)… and fellow DPS Officer Daniel Knight would most likely have heard that transmission from DPS Officer Eric Tarr.
“Eric being into the helm ranch…
This would also ‘fit’. After DPS Officer Eric Tarr found the bodies and put ‘Police TAPE’ around the site itself… He and Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown, along with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, all then walked EAST ( as a group ) to the Boulder Springs Ranch ( The Helm Ranch ).
So this one ‘breakout’ statement from Officer Knight WOULD make ‘sense’ in the context of “Eric” meaning “Eric Tarr”. There WAS a moment, following the deployment, when DPS Officer “Eric Tarr” WAS “into the helm ranch”.
Cortez pat was talking to individual.
This part of Knight’s notes is obviously ‘confusing’.
It seems to be Officer Knight ‘reporting’ something he was ‘overhearing’, ( post-deployment… circa 1900 ) but the notes don’t say WHERE he was at the time he ‘overhead’ these two individuals talking.
Was Officer Knight at the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’, circa 1900… or was he actually out at the Helm’s Ranch by then?
Did this really mean to be typed as “Pat Cortez was talking to individual”… and is that some reference to a DPS Officer by the name of “Pat Cortez”?…
** OR **
Was Officer Knight trying to name TWO persons ( One named ‘Cortez’ and one named ‘Pat’? ) talking to this mysterious ‘other individual’?
** OR **
Is it that ‘Cortez’ is a ‘mispelling’ and was really supposed to be a reference to “Cordes” ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes )?
There was no ‘firefighter’ in Yarnell that Sunday with either a first or last name of “Cortez”… but there MAY have been a DPS Officer with that last name.
SIDENOTE: There actually IS a list of DPS Officers who were there in Yarnell that day. It appears in Detective J. McDormett’s official ‘report’ he filed regarding his investigation of the deployment site. It is not known if Detective McDormett’s list of ‘Officers’ participating in Yarnell is complete… but out of the 41 ( FORTY ONE ) Officer names that ARE listed… there is no one with either a first or last name of ‘Cortez’.
Either way… we have no idea who the ‘individual’ was that either SPGS1 Gary Cordes OR a DPS Officer named “Pat Cortez” might have been ‘talking to’… or WHAT they were talking ABOUT… unless what Officer Knight was actually talking ‘ABOUT’ is contained in the notes themselves.
As in… Officer Knight was telling the SAIT something he OVERHEARD ‘other people’ talking about… and it was ABOUT someone named “Eric” and the “Helm ranch” and a “Crew Net”.
Crew was walking towards us.
In the context of “Eric” being Officer “Eric Tarr”… this is also a ‘possibility’ ( since there WAS a point when Eric Tarr and the 5 other fireman WERE ‘walking toward the Helm Ranch )… but in that context the only thing that would make a first-person statement from Officer Knight about “walking towards us” make sense is if Officer Knight was already there at the ‘Helm Ranch’ and either saw ( or was made aware ) that Officer Eric Tarr and the 5 firemen ( the ‘Crew’ part? ) were “walking towards them”.
Eric heard on crew net and left.
Again… in the context of “Eric” being Officer “Eric Tarr”… this one is a stretch.
DPS Officers don’t use ‘Crew Nets’.
And for this “Eric” to be a reference to DPS Officer “Eric Tarr”… the “heard something on crew net and left” part would remain a mystery. Left to go… where?
DPS Officer Eric Tarr only ‘left’ the Boulder Springs Ranch area long after the 1900 timeframe… and only after the ‘accident’ site was completely secured. When Officer Eric Tarr finally ‘passed off’ supervision of the accident scene to other Officers… Officer Tarr was given a ‘ride’ from the Boulder Springs Ranch back to the Ranch House Restaurant and he was then given another ‘ride’ back north where he rejoined his fellow DPS Officers assigned to Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’.
SUMMARY: Some of what Officer Daniel Knight was ‘testifying’ to in his SAIT interview does ‘make sense’ in a context whereby the “Eric” he was mentioning *might* have been fellow DPS Officer “Eric Tarr”… but some of it does ‘not fit’ at all.
See the next message for a similar ‘breakdown’ of this testimony from DPS Officer Daniel Knight… but this time in the ‘context’ that his mentioning the NAME “Eric” actually meant “Eric Marsh”…
** IF DPS OFFICER DANIEL KNIGHT WAS TALKING ABOUT “ERIC MARSH”
Now let’s do the same ‘breakdown’ of the exact same ‘statements’ coming from DPS Officer Daniel Knight… but THIS time in the ‘context’ that his references to “Eric” actually mean he was talking about “Eric Marsh”.
Here we go ( same phrase breakout as before )…
1900 notified of fatalities.
See above. Officer Knight obviously heard the radio traffic ( at 1900 ) that confirmed the fatalities. A lot of people did. Officers and Fireman alike.
Eric being into the helm ranch…
If the “Eric” being reference here by Officer Knight is “Eric Marsh”… then this statement makes MUCH more sense than if the “Eric” is supposed to mean DPS Officer “Eric Tarr”.
There is still every chance in the world that Eric Marsh DID actually make it all the way to the ‘Helm Ranch’ ( Boulder Springs Ranch ) that afternoon, despite the fact that Lee and DJ Helm testified they never actually SAW him ( or any other fireman ) in or around their Ranch in the relevant timeframe.
What Officer Knight SEEMED to be reporting here in this entire last sentence from his ‘interview’ notes are things he seems to have OVERHEARD ( shortly after 1900 ) between the “people talking” ( at the Ranch House Restaurant? ) that he is now going to also ‘describe’…
Cortez pat was talking to individual.
See above about all the ‘Name possibilities’ here… but in the ‘context’ of the previous statement ( just before THIS one ) meaning “Eric Marsh” ( and not Officer “Eric Tarr” ), this next statement now ALSO makes more sense.
In THIS context ( “Eric” means “Eric Marsh” )… Officer Knight now seems to be saying that everything he is ‘reporting’ in this last part of his interview is coming from some ‘conversation’ he OVERHEARD that day.
And it would seem VERY likely ( in THIS context ) that the ‘Cortez’ being referred to really was meant to be ‘Cordes’ ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes )… and that Officer Knight was trying to say he OVERHEARD SPGS1 Gary Cordes ‘talking to an individual’ at the Ranch House Restaurant ( circa 1900 )… and telling THAT individual what “Eric Marsh” had been doing.
Crew was walking towards us.
Eric heard on crew net and left.
I’m putting BOTH of these ‘statements’ from Officer Knight together here… because in THIS ‘context’ of the “Eric” actually meaning “Eric Marsh”… it makes perfect sense to put them ‘together’ as just one more thing that Officer Knight seems to be reporting he heard when the ‘Cortez ( Cordes )’ person was telling things to that ‘other individual’ ( in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot? ).
If the “Eric” means “Eric Marsh”… then it appears Officer Knight is just finishing his report that he heard this ‘Cortez / Cordes’ person telling someone else…
So the following would be what Officer Knight SEEMS to have been reporting he OVERHEARD ( with some detail filled in )…
“The ( Granite Mountain ) Crew was ‘walking towards us’ ( and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch ). Eric Marsh was already ‘into the Helm Ranch’ by then and when he heard this report of ‘the Crew walking towardsus’ ‘on the crew net’… that’s when he “left” ( the Helm ranch ) ( and started walking WEST to rejoin them )”.
In the context of “Eric” meaing “Eric Marsh”… this actually makes perfect sense ( and much more sense than the “Eric” being a reference to DPS Officer “Eric Tarr” ).
DPS Officers don’t use ‘Crew Nets’. Type 1 Hotshots DO ( and that’s what they CALL those special radio frequencies ).
And… likewise… in the context of “Eric” meaning “Eric Marsh”… the “heard on crew net and left” part actually ALSO makes perfect sense, whereby it makes no sense at all if the “Eric” means “Eric Tarr”.
If the “Eric” means “Eric Marsh”… then this would appear to be a CONFIRMATION coming from DPS Officer Daniel Knight that he OVERHEARD SPGS1 Gary Cordes talking to someone ( circa 1900 )… and what he OVERHEARD was Cordes telling that someone that Eric Marsh had ( first ) made it all the way ‘into the Helm ranch’… and then Eric Marsh “heard on crew net” that “the Crew” ( the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew ) was “heading towards him/them” at the Boulder Springs Ranch ( the Helm Ranch )… and that is when Eric Marsh “left” and started back WEST to rejoin them as they hiked TOWARDS the Boulder Springs Ranch.
ADOSH never did any kind of ‘follow up’ interview with DPS Officer Daniel Knight to determine whether this “Eric” that he kept mentioning in his ‘testimony’ to the SAIT really meant “Eric Marsh”… or whether the “Cortez” name that appears in the notes from his interview really meant “Cordes” ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ).
Maybe all that was a bit confusing.
Let me go out on a limb here, just in the interests of trying to make it simpler.
Once again… here is that ‘mysterious’ last-line from the SAIT interview notes from their interview with DPS Officer Daniel Knight…
1900 notified of fatalities. “Eric being into the helm ranch…Cortez pat was talking to individual. Crew was walking towards us Eric heard on crew net and left.
IAOI ( If And Only If ) DPS Officer Daniel Knight’s references to “Eric” are actually references to “Eric Marsh”… then here is what I ( me, personally… your mileage may vary ) think the ACTUAL ‘conversation’ between SAIT investigator Lance ( Carbone ) and DPS Officer Daniel Knight actually ‘sounded’ like.
In other words… if we actually HAD a ‘recording’ of that interview… here is what I ( me, personally… your mileage may vary ) think we would actually be HEARING…
—————————————————————————–
Lance Carbone: When did you hear about the fatalities?
DPS Officer Daniel Knight: It was about 1900. I had worked my way down to the Ranch House Restaurant where everyone else had gathered… and we all heard the confirmation come over the radio.
Lance Carbone: What happened then?
DPS Officer Daniel Knight: Well… I was still standing there with everyone else in that parking lot… and that was when I heard one of the fireman… I think his name was ‘Cortez’… or ‘Cordes’… or something like that… talking to someone else about what had happened. I heard him say to this other person that the Granite Mountain Superintendent Eric Marsh had made it all the way ‘into the Helm Ranch’… but when Eric then heard over the ‘Crew Net’ that the Granite Mountain Crew was now “headed towards us”… you know… like “headed towards town”… that is when Eric decided to leave the ‘Helm Ranch’ and head back west to meet them.
—————————————————————————–
WTKTT,
Wow—-great information!
I have just read your comments and am reflecting and letting it all sink in.
I still dont understand why DPS allowed Darrell Willis Corey Moser and others to compromise the deployment site——-
From what I have read in other resources I thought the local sheriffs office and other officers should have had authority over others at scene but yet Willis and Moser were allowed to intervene and compromise evidence at the scene—-it is stated that DPS was on scene so it wasnt as if authorities weren’t present to help with the situation and Willis and Moser needed to take over——-this does not seem right to me.
were allowed to compromise the deployment site not to compromise the deployment site
Reply to Diane Lomas post on October 3, 2016 at 8:51 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Wow—-great information!
>> I have just read your comments and am reflecting and
>> letting it all sink in.
Actually… that testimony from Officer Daniel Kight mentioning “Eric” that was just ‘hiding’ there in those SAIT investigation ‘notes’ was first noticed by ‘calvin’… back in Chapter V ( 5 ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-v-comments/#comment-11578
——————————————————————
On March 9, 2014 at 4:34 am, calvin said…
p34 & 35 YIN…. Daniel Kight DPS officer (last few sentences)
“Eric being into the helms ranch….. Cortez pat was talking to individual.
Crew was wking towards us Eric heard on crew net and left.
Thoughts??
——————————————————————
The ‘discussion’ about it, at that time, recognized the possibility that it could be a reference to ‘either’ DPS Officer/Medic “Eric Tarr” OR it could have been referencing “Eric Marsh”.
But there still wasn’t much ‘evidence’ ( at that time ) to support the ‘pull’ theory which would have put Eric Marsh out AHEAD of the Granite Mountain Hotshots prior to the deployment.
Since then… there HAS been ‘more evidence’ to support that… and so looking at this statement from Officer Kight again tends to lean MUCH more towards the “Eric” references meaning “Eric Marsh”… and NOT Officer “Eric Tarr”.
Taken in context… these disjointed SAIT notes really DO seem to be indicating Officer Kight was telling the SAIT about a ‘conversation’ he had OVERHEAD between someone named ‘Cortez’ ( or Cordes ) and another firefighter… and the topic of the conversation was that Eric Marsh had already been ‘into the Helm Ranch’… and then he heard over his GM ‘Crew Net’ that the ‘GM Crew’ was moving ‘towards town’… so Eric then LEFT the ‘Helm Ranch’ and went out to meet them.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> I still dont understand why DPS allowed Darrell Willis
>> Corey Moser and others to compromise the
>> deployment site——-
>>
>> From what I have read in other resources I thought the
>> local sheriffs office and other officers should have had
>> authority over others at scene
They did.
DPS Officer Eric Tarr STAYED at the ‘deployment site’ until he was ‘relieved’ by Yavapai County Sheriff Scott Mascher and his deputies.
Only when there were ‘other officers’ assigned to ‘protect’ the site did Eric Tarr return to the Boulder Springs Ranch and get a ride back north to rejoin his fellow ‘Ranger 58’ Helicopter crewmates.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> but yet Willis and Moser were allowed to intervene and
>> compromise evidence at the scene—-it is stated that
>> DPS was on scene so it wasnt as if authorities weren’t
>> present to help with the situation and Willis and Moser
>> needed to take over——-this does not seem right to me.
It is still NOT known who actually was allowed to enter the ‘taped off ‘ accident scene prior to the arrival of the YCSO detectives and then placed all the TARPS over the bodies.
All we know is that when the YCSO detectives first arrived… they found all the bodies covered with these TARPS… and they then had to alter their initial plans and take TWO sets of photographs. One set of the site exactly the way they were ‘finding it’ ( with all the TARPS in place )… and then they had to carefully REMOVE all these TARPS and then take another set of photographs using their ‘Pharo 3D’ imaging system.
And there WERE ‘Sheriff’s deputies’ ( supposedly TWO ) who were there at the site all night to ‘guard’ it.
We don’t know who those ‘deputies’ were, either.
YCSO Sheriff Scott Mascher himself is the one who brought the 19 American flags out to the site the next morning.
It is NOT known if Sheriff Scott Mascher either allowed or participated in the placing of all the TARPS as well, sometime BEFORE the detectives arrived.
There was this documented MASSIVE ‘paranoia’ amongst the firefighters who were spending the night near the deployment site that a MEDIA chopper might get a shot of the deployment site when the sun came up.
Those ‘fears’ were dictating their ‘actions’ that night.
But regardless… NO ONE should have been allowed to enter that ‘crime scene’ that night BEFORE the YCSO detectives had a chance to examine it ‘as is’.
And yes… as far a police protocol goes… UNTIL an ‘investigator’ says there is no evidence of ‘foul play’…. any ‘accident’ scene is considered to be a potential ‘crime scene’ until there is a reason to DECLARE it is not.
If there had been ANY evidence at all of any ‘stab wounds’ or ‘gunshot wounds’ on ANY of those bodies at the deployment site… you can imagine how this all would have taken a ‘different turn’ with regards to the ‘investigations’.
And to this day… there is still NO SIGN of any of the ( supposedly ) 4 or 5 GPS Units that Brendan McDonough told ADOSH investigators the GM Crew usually had with them.
We KNOW there was at least 1 handheld GPS Unit with the crew that day.
Poster ‘calvin’ found it in a photograph attached directly to the right-pack-strap of GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell.
That GPS Unit ( and the ‘others’ that McDonough says were out there with the crew that day )… simply ‘disappeared’.
There is nothing to indicate that the YCSO detectives ever saw or found ANY of these GPS Units after they arrived to examine the scene… and after extensive evidence collection.
Since that ‘accident scene’ really was… for all intents and purposes… still considered by police protocol to be a ‘crime scene’ ( until it was declared NOT to be )… then the ‘removal’ of any ‘evidence’ prior to the arrival of the YCSO detectives would also be ‘a crime’.
So what happened to these GPS Units?
Did they ‘walk away from the deployment site’ even BEFORE the YCSO police investigators even got the chance to start collecting evidence?
And then of course there is the matter of Eric Marsh’s missing cell phone which contained crucial evidence.
It was at the deployment site and disappeared later, is that correct?
Is there not a way to recover his phone records without the phone? .
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
October 3, 2016 at 3:46 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> And then of course there is the matter of Eric
>> Marsh’s missing cell phone which contained
>> crucial evidence.
>>
>> It was at the deployment site and disappeared
>> later, is that correct?
Yes.
Until InvestigativeMEDIA obtained and published those ‘TEXT only’ copies of the Granite Mountain ‘Autopsy’ and ‘Personal Property’ reports… it appeared that Eric Marsh’s cellphone had just ‘walked away’ from the deployment site itself… just as it STILL appears to have been the case for any/all GPS Units that Granite Mountain had that day.
But finally being able to SEE the ‘Autopsy’ and ‘Personal Property’ reports proved that was not the case for Eric Marsh’s cellphone.
It had been in his shirt pocket ( along with his compass and his signal mirror ) at the moment he died… and those three items REMAINED in Eric Marsh’s shirt pocket until they were finally ‘removed’ from that shirt pocket at the start of his autopsy at the Medical Examiner’s office.
Those THREE items that had been in his shirt pocket all along ( his cellphone, his signal mirror and his compass ) were all ‘bagged up’ together and labelled as to origin there in the Medical Examiner’s office.
But that is when that particular ‘bag’ containing ALL THREE of those items from Eric Marsh’s shirt pocket just ‘up and walked away’ from the Medical Examiner’s office.
That ‘bag’ and those THREE items were NEVER entered into the YCSO Police ‘chain of evidence’, as were all the items recovered from the pockets of all the other Hotshots.
Those THREE items only ‘resurfaced’ many, many months later ( and after both the SAIT and ADOSH investigations had completed ) in some kind of secret ‘hand-off’ between some yet-unnamed Prescott Fireman and Eric Marsh’s widow, Amanda Marsh.
This ‘secret-handoff’ which passed all THREE of those things ( cellphone, compass and signal mirror ) back to Amanda Marsh took place on the ‘square’ outside of the Prescott County Courthouse… like it was some kind of secret drug-deal going down, or something.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> Is there not a way to recover his phone records
>> without the phone? .
Yes.
Always has been.
Eric Marsh was receiving a ‘stipend’ from the City of Prescott to help pay for that cellphone and its use… so the City of Prescott ALWAYS had the right to request ‘call records’ for that cellphone directly from the ‘Carrier’.
But when ADOSH requested complete ‘cellphone’ records for BOTH City of Prescott employees Darrell Willis AND Eric Marsh… the City of Prescott obtained and supplied ALL of Darrell Willis’ packet-level cellphone records and they DID pass those on to ADOSH…
…but they told ADOSH they would have to get Eric Marsh’s cellphone records from Amanda Marsh herself.
The lawyers for the City of Prescott had to have been perfectly aware that THEY had every right to obtain call records for Eric Marsh’s cellphone direct from the ‘Carrier’ ( since they were helping to pay for it ) with or without Amanda Marsh’s ‘permission’… but they tried to make it sound like they did NOT have that ability.
The absence of gps devices would support the narrative that nobody knew where the men were?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
October 3, 2016 at 4:59 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> The absence of gps devices would support
>> the narrative that nobody knew where the
>> men were?
Well… yes… it would… but even if valid GPS data had been recovered for GM… Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the rest of the SAIT could have still maintained their ‘fiction’ that nobody KNEW where they were… and they could/would have still put out their bald-faced LIE that there was a ’30 minute blackout’ in communications that afternoon.
See a longer reply above at this link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-348517
How can they lie and there be no accountability?
Sounds like they may be obstructing justice. Is there anything else that can be done?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
October 5, 2016 at 12:33 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> How can they lie and there be no
>> accountability?
Because they believe that little things like LAWS that apply to you and me do NOT apply to THEM.
As is made perfectly clear in all those USFS and Arizona Foresty emails obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA… the MEDIA and the ‘taxpayers’ ( who provide them with their paychecks )… and anyone else who is “poking their nose into OUR business”… is the ENEMY.
They do not WANT to be “accountable”.
To ANYONE ( but themselves ).
They just want the taxpayers to keep giving them all the billions and billions of dollars of their ( the public’s ) hard-earned money that they keep asking for… and then “Shut the Fuck Up and Leave Us Alone”.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> Sounds like they may be obstructing justice.
There are MANY things related to this ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ coverup that, if fully revealed, would rise to the level of “obstructing justice”… or at least the level of “obstructing official government business/investigations”.
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Is there anything else that can be done?
Yes.
For starters… the Arizona Apellate Court could pull up their shorts and override the lower court ruling about whether of not the residents of Yarnell are simply allowed to “have their day in court”… as is supposedly guaranteed to them in the Arizona Constitution.
The ‘appeal’ that is before the Arizona Appellate Court is NOT supposed to “decide the merits of the cases” themselves.
The ‘appeal’ is ONLY supposed to decide if these citizens of Arizona can exercise their Constituional rights to have their cases decided in an Arizona Court of Law.
If even just ONE of the 135+ lawsuits is allowed to proceed to trial… then there will finally be a ‘venue’ where all of these ‘witnesses’ can be called and they will ( finally ) have to swear to tell “the truth… the WHOLE truth… and nothing BUT the truth”.
And if they don’t take the 5th… and they still LIE “on the stand”… then they can go to JAIL.
It really doesn’t matter if the ‘Property Damage’ plaintiffs actually WIN any of their cases. There is no guarantee they will… and that should NOT be the concern of the Appellate Court.
Win or lose… the plaintiffs have the right to have their “day in court”… and it will be the very act of trying the case itself that will probably reveal how deep this ‘coverup’ has always been.
Arizona Forestry will, of course, do everything they possibly can to SETTLE these lawsuits if/when they are allowed to proceed.
Arizona Forestry KNOWS that the ‘prime directive’ is to NOT ever have a ‘court case’ active that can then actually start calling ‘witnesses’ to the stand.
They will do EVERYTHING THEY CAN to prevent that from ever happening.
HUGE ‘typo’ in all the message above this one.
Somehow I got the last name ‘Knight’ stuck in my head when typing all that.
But the DPS Officer who was interviewed by the SAIT was named “Daniel Kight’.
So everywhere above you see the name ‘Daniel Knight’…
just substitute ‘Daniel Kight’. instead.
Sorry about that. If I could EDIT all the references above… I would.
**
** BEARTOWN FIREFIGHTER IGNITES PUBLIC DISCUSSION ABOUT WHERE
** ALL THE DONATIONS ARE REALLY GOING.
Well… this was bound to happen.
Apparently, the Keweenaw Indian Bay Community ( KBIC ) has their own “Sharon Knutson-Felix’ who is the ‘gatekeeper’ of all the money being collected in the wake of the fatal rollover incident and deciding WHO gets ‘help’… and who does NOT.
Only problem is… we don’t know WHO that person is yet.
It appears ( at the moment ) to be the entire KBIC ‘Tribal Council’ itself ( which includes Doreen Blaker, the CREW CHIEF for the ‘Beartown Firefighters’ and the one who was apparently leading the ‘Chase Me Charlie’ run at 80 to 90+ miles per hour when the fatal accident took place ).
One of the ‘Beartown Fifighters’ who was seriously injured in the fatal rollover crash on August 27, 2016 is named Tyler Tolonen.
He broke his back in two places.
They ‘released’ him from the hospital with no followup visits and now he says he cannot even get any help from the Keweenaw Bay Tribal doctors because they think he is a drug addict.
Tyler himself has now ignited a heated PUBLIC discussion about how he’s not getting the help he needs.
Tyler Tolonen’s PUBLIC Facebook page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/tyler.tolonen
Right at the top is the ‘nasty’ exchange that is currently taking place about how much money the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community ( KBIC ) has raised in official ‘fundraisers’ in support of the ‘Beartown Firefighters’… and how the very firefighters who were hurt and injured ( like Tolonen ) are not getting the help they desperately need right now ( medical bills, supporting their families, etc. ).
In the PUBLIC discussion… the mother of deceased Beartown Firefighter Alan Swartz’s two children ( Heather Marie Gauthier ) chimes in and says she, personally, got a check from Amanda Marsh’s “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters”.
But even she hasn’t seen a DIME of the money that was ( and is still ) being raised PUBLICLY for the “Beartown Firefighters”.
More to come on this, I’m sure.
Some ‘highlights’ from the PUBLIC discussion at…
NOTE: Heather Marie Gauthier is the mother of two of deceased “Beartown Firefighter” Alan J. Swartz’s children. Alan Swartz was living with her at the time he was killed on that fatal rollover accident on August 27, 2016.
Tyler Tolonen is the “Beartown” firefighter who survived the rollover but his back was broken in two places. He was sitting right next to ‘Alan Swartz’… one of the firefighters who was killed in the rollover.
——————————————————————–
Tyler Tolonen said: ( on September 29 at 11:08am ·)
Anyone else wondering how much money was really raised??
Tell me why I have to go work with a broken back fucked up shoulder so I can have money for me and my son. Makes no sence when there (money) for us being raised for Us and our kids.
Heather Marie Gauthier
Me n ivory got a different foundation who sent me n her money it was the Eric marsh foundation who sent jus me n her money
Eddy Edwards ( KBIC Council Member ) said:
Doreen ( Blaker ) is one of 4 people part of the board picked by council. I abstained when council voted to take control and name people to administer the funds.
Heather Marie Gauthier said:
Sammi Rae really aj was his friend too I didn’t know nobody cared about his death but me all anybody cares about is money wow life is more important I got left wit 5 kids to take care of for the next 16 years by myself he got his life n I understand about what he’s talking about I need money too I havnt got no fucking money wow u act like I got all this money from them I ain’t got shit if u don’t like what I say don’t read it.,
Really grow up for real oviously u don’t get it til ur 4 year old baby says mommy I love daddy when u tuck him into bed and he knows he ain’t coming bak to him then u don’t fucking make sense so jus shut the fuck up im not gonna sit here n argue wit a 12 year old I’m done this so thanks for ur input!!!!
Tyler Tolonen said:
All I want is the total ( money raised ) and proof
——————————————————————–
Followup…
All of the ‘minutes’ from all of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community ( KBIC ) Tribal Council meetings eventually get ‘published’ at the following link on their own Tribal website…
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/content/minutes
The only minutes that have been published from any meeting since the fatal rollover involving the KBIC “Beartown Firefighters” Type 2 IA Crew are the ones from the meeting held on September 6, 2016… just over a week after the accident.
Here is a direct link to those ‘Tribal Council Meeting’ minutes…
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/sites/default/files/minutes/09-06-2016.pdf
From that online PDF document…
—————————————————————————
H. Closed Session
1. Beartown Fire Fighters / Relief Fund Board Establishment
MOTION MADE BY MICHAEL F. LAFERNIER, SR. TO GO INTO
CLOSED SESSION AT 1:15 PM SUPPORTED BY GARY F. LOONSFOOT, SR.
TEN IN FAVOR.
Doreen G. Blaker, Jennifer Misegan, Susan J. LaFernier, Toni J. Milton,
Robert R.D. Curtis Jr., Eddy Edwards, Randall R. Haataja, Michael F. LaFernier Sr.,
Gary F. Loonsfoot Sr., Donald Shalifoe Sr.
OPPOSED = 0, ABSTAINING = 0, ONE ABSENT ( Fred Dakota ).
MOTION CARRIED
—————————————————————————
The KBIC Council stayed in ‘closed session’ for 1 hour and 10 minutes while they established this “Beartown Fire Fighters Relief Fund Board” and decided WHO was going to be on it and WHO would be running that Board.
NOTE: They went into ‘Closed Session’ so that whatever ‘business’ was taking place would NOT have to be recorded in the PUBLIC ‘minutes’. This is LEGAL. Whenever this Council also discusses anything to do with their TWO ‘Casinos’ and the ‘business’ of running those Casinos they also go into ‘Closed Session’ so no one gets to see what is actually taking place.
At 2:25 PM… the minutes show a ‘motion’ for the Council to RETURN to ‘Open Session’ again. The motion passed and the PUBLIC minutes of the meeting then pick up again at that point.
The ‘Open Session’ now started passing ‘motions’ related to the establishment of this “Beartown Fire Figthers Relief Fund Board”.
——————————————————————————–
MOTION MADE BY JENNIFER MISEGAN TO APPOINT SUSAN LAFERNIER,
FRANCIS LAPOINTE, AND MARTIN CURTIS TO THE ‘BEARTOWN FIREFIGHTERS
RELIEF FUND BOARD’… AND DOREEN BLAKER AS AN ALTERNATE
TO THE BOARD.
SUPPORTED BY TONI J. MINTON.
NINE IN FAVOR.
OPPOSED = 0, ONE ABSTAINING ( Councilman Eddy Edwards ), ONE ABSENT ( Fred Dakota ).
MOTION CARRIED
——————————————————————————–
So ‘Beartown Firefighters’ CREW BOSS and Tribal Council Treasurer Doreen Blaker was NOT actually ‘appointed’ to the Board that is to decide how the Relief Money gets spent… but she is a ‘first alternate’.
Councilman ‘Eddy Edwards’ was the only one ‘abstaining’ and not agreeing with who was being appointed to the ‘Relief Fund Board’.
The only other thing that was then ( publicly ) decided was to take some of the ( supposedly, no on knows for sure ) $27,000+ dollars that had already been raised to the “Beartown Fireghters” and authorize the Tribe to pay for the funeral expenses of the two deceased firefighters ( unless some other ‘money’ shows up and pays those expenses ).
——————————————————————————–
MOTION MADE BY ROBERT R.D. CURTIS, JR. TO PAY FOR THE FUNERAL EXPENSES OF THE DECEASED FIREFIGHTERS PENDING ANY OTHER BENEFITS EXCLUDING THE RELIEF FUND.
SUPPORTED BY DONALD SHALIFOE, SR.
TEN IN FAVOR
OPPOSED = 0, ABSTAINING = 0, ONE ABSENT ( Fred Dakota ).
MOTION CARRIED
——————————————————————————–
So there is still NOTHING showing ( publicly ) that has anything to do with using any of the public donations raised by this TRIBE to help any of the INJURED Firefighters in any way.
There are ‘rumors’ that some of the injured FFs have received SOME help… but there is no ‘accountability’ visible yet… and this is basically the essence of Beartown Firefighter Tyler Tolonen’s complaint.
He just wants to know HOW MUCH has been raised… and WHERE it is going.
( Tolonen broke his back in two places… and says he is unable to get any treatment at the Tribe’s own Medical facilities. Not even anything to treat the PAIN he is in ).
It’s also interesting to NOTE that the KBIC Tribe has now ‘claimed’ that all proceeds being raised by a private ‘GoFundMe’ campaign that had been started in the name of the “Beartown Firefighters” by private KBIC Tribe citizen Julie Ann Gauthier MUST eventually be deposited into the TRIBAL ‘Bank Account’ and the dispersement of THOSE ‘GoFundMe’ proceeds must also come under their ‘authority’.
The claim by the KBIC ‘Tribe’ is that because the NAME of that public ‘GoFundMe’ campaign is “Beartown Firefighters”… and because the tribe OWNS that NAME and that ‘brand’… that all proceeds raised by this private GoFundMe campaign belong to the TRIBE itself and THEY will decide where that money should go.
KBIC has basically now created their own little ‘Arizona 100 Club’ ( Board ) to make all the decisions about who should get any of the public donations.
And here is KBIC Tribe member Julie Ann Gauthier herself conversing PUBLICLY with injured ‘Beartown Firefighter’ Tyler Tolonen himself.
She is telling him how she was ‘informed’ that the money raised by the ‘GoFundMe’ page that she had personally started for the ‘Beartown Firefighters’ must go into the KBIC Tribal bank account(s)… and that if she had known THAT was going to happen she would have used some OTHER name for the ‘GoFundMe’ campaign.
This is part of the PUBLIC discussion about “Where is the money going?” that is taking place on Tyler Tolonen’s own PUBLIC Facebook page at…
https://www.facebook.com/tyler.tolonen
—————————————————————————
Comment by: Julie Ann Gauthier – September 28 at 1:00 pm
Tyler… I can set up a go fund me page just for you to raise money that has nothing to do with the tribe or council. I raised over $400 but because it said beartown firefighters, council told me it had to be deposited in the account at superior national.
Comment by: Annie Tammelin
Wowww!
Comment by: Julie Ann Gauthier
Ya If I would have known that I would have changed the name of the fundraiser. But for any of you that were injured and want to get this story out and need us to help raise money for your bills, children, houses, etc. Let me know I’ll do it
Comment by: Tyler Tolonen
We don’t even know the full amount that was raise and when am I even wondering how can I spend this… I need gas and food house hold stuff things like that and its like pulling teeth
Can anyone help me with seeing a doctor cuz this tribe is not helping me at all.
It feels like my back is going to break in half plus I should if been to special doctors for my head back shoulder but thid tribe thinks I’m drug seeking.
I just got in to a accident that killed two if my bests friends.
No meds no speacialst nitthng
Comment by: David Maki
Dude you should know by now that if you have something wrong with you then good luck, only way your gana get help is to be a damn junky around here
Comment by: Tyler Tolonen
Dude I was just in a reck that killed two ppl sitting two feet away from me
Comment by: David Maki
Yea I know that.. I was just saying in order to get help from docs around here you have to be addicted to drugs
Comment by: Tyler Tolonen
Does anyone have a number to a good lawyer for all this bullshit going on with doctors and all the rest I’m over being treated this way.
——————————————————————————-
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 30, 2016 at 7:55 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Email excerpt from a USFS employee whose name, position, and duty
>> location will remain unknown.
Once again… here you come with one of your infamous ‘partial information’ posts.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “The guidance for our employees on talking about Yarnell hasn’t changed
>> since June 30 of 2013. We are approaching this within the sideboards of
>> ensuring our employees and the US Govt are protected from any potential
>> litigation or other related actions”
The US Government ( and its employees ) are protected by ‘sovereign immunity’.
SOME ‘State Governements’ ( and its employees ) are also… so long as that ‘State’ has amended its Constitution to include such ‘protections’.
Arizona is one of the States in the Union that had NOT ‘added’ Federal-style ‘sovereign immunity’ clauses to its State Consititution.
Even if the Blue Ridge Hotshots had set the entire Sesame Clearing area on fire as a last-ditch ‘backburn’ effort on their way out of that area… and that ‘backfire’ went on to become the fireline that actually killed the Granite Mountain Hotshots ( this is just an EXAMPLE, there is nothing in the public evidence record that says they did do such a thing )… they would still be ‘protected’ from ‘prosecution’ because they are FEDERAL EMPLOYEES.
So the Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves have never had anything to ‘fear’ by openly talking about their experiences at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The ‘official’ YH Fire SAIT states:
>>
>> “The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations
>> of policy or protocol.”
>>
>> ( snip – Various other references to statements ENCOURAGING people
>> to openly DISCUSS the Yarnell Hill Fire )
>>
>> So then, all USFS employees must seek Office of General Counsel approval
>> in order to take part in training and discussion about the Yarnell Fire, that
>> the USFS had previously approved for training and discussion?
Even if the ’email quote’ you are providing above as part of your YAPIP ( Yet Another Partial Information Post ) was from USDA OGC counsel itself ( like, perhaps, the infamous lawyer Steve Hattenbach who helped USFS orchestrate the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘coverup’ in the first place )…
…I see nothing there in the ’email statement’ that supports the conclusion you are making that anyone who wants to talk about the Yarnell Fire is supposed to ‘seek OGC’ approval.
You are obviously pointing out the ‘REAL’ agenda of upper USFS management… and the ‘contradiction’ between what they say publicly and what they are saying privately… but again… I see no SPECIFIC LANGUAGE in that ’email excerpt’ stating that everyone in USFS is supposed to ‘clear’ their discussion of the Yarnell Hill Fire through OGC counsel.
I think you are just ‘reading that into’ the situation.
Using the words ‘guidance’ and the bizarre reference to ‘sideboards’ ( whatever the fuck that means ) is not a DIRECTIVE along the lines of “all discussion of Yarnell MUST be cleared through USDA OGC lawyers”.
Of COURSE they ( USFS management ) just wants “all of this to go away”.
They always have.
That is not ‘news’.
Of COURSE they ( USFS management ) are still ‘reeling’ from that time when someone got charged with ‘manslaughter’ following the deaths of civil servants entrusted to their care.
That is also ‘not news’.
I’m even going to PILE ON with the ‘contradictions’ you were point out above between what they say publicly and what their REAL agenda is ( and has always been ).
The following is a ‘reprint’ of a post made back on April 9, 2016, in Chapter XX ( 20 ) of this ongoing discussion about the Yarnell Hill Fire…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-331724
———————————————————————————
On April 9, 2016 at 5:16 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Brit Rosso is the ‘Center Manager’ for the US Forestry’s “Wildland Lessons Learned Center”
Brit Rosso is seen in the following YouTube video identifying himself and speaking to ALL firefighters about the “Yarnell Hill Fire”… and how he wants ALL of them to simply TALK ABOUT IT… in an OPEN and HONEST way…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C65FcpAi_-4&list=PLB0zwpPSF3eBTxI0DAN7hiAolWtxNYM1A&index=10
Brit Rosso is a USFS employee and ‘Center Manager’ of the actual “Wildland Lessons Learned Center”, and he is speaking to ‘all firefighters’ about the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.
What he actually says at the start of the video is this…
————————————————————————-
So my name is Britt Rosso, Center Manager for
the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Quick fire background… I spent about 21 years on a Hotshot crew, I spent a few years as a District FMO… and then I’ve been workin’ at the Lessons Learned Center for about the last 3 or so years.
I’m here today to talk you about the Yarnell Fire.
We’re all struggling with how to process what happened on June 30, 2013.
We’re all struggling out in the fire community about where the lessons… what are the take-home messages… what can we learn from this incident.
What I wanna share with you is how important it is to TALK ABOUT IT.
Not only to talk about it… but to let you know that it’s OKAY to talk about it.
It’s IMPORTANT that you DO talk about it.
Share what you’ve learned by reading the… uh… reports… by watchin’ the videos and have open, honest, respectful dialog. Be willing to listen to other people’s opinions and have that respectful dialog with your fellow firefighters.
By having this dialog… by facilitating these conversations about Yarnell…. This is where the learning’s gonna happen. Is with you and your brothers and sisters out there in the field.
This is the 20th anniversary of South Canyon.
We’re still learning from South Canyon 20 years later.
Yarnell just happened eight months ago.
We’ll be learning about the Yarnell incident for YEARS to come.
Time and patience are gonna be key when learning from this incident.
I ask you to just take the time and just be patient as we work through this together.
————————————————————————-
Key message ( to ALL firefighters ): TALK ABOUT IT!… OPENLY and HONESTLY!
Britt Rosso is actively participating in the development of this ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’.
But despite his own words in the video… we can now see that the ‘Staff Ride’ even Brit Rosso is working on is still TOTALLY based on ONLY the original Arizona Forestry SAIR document.
It totally ignores and, indeed, never acknowledges ANY of the additional evidence and information that has been revealed by ANY other investigation or sources since that original Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT team produced their much-criticized document.
And that includes ALL of the information revealed in the many interviews conducted during the Arizona Department of Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) investigation.
——————————————————————————
End of post from back in Chapter XX ( 20 )
On September 30, 2016 at 10:20 am, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>> Gary,
>>
>> You posted: “You know many of those reasons, in fact, I think you know
>> all of them.”
>>
>> I know many of them, certainly not all of them.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You ( Gary ) also posted: “I think you have an obligation to tell us what you know.
>> That information does not belong to you alone. As a matter of fact, it belongs
>> to me and everyone else who paid for that fire and its aftermath.”
>>
>> I agree with most of that statement.
You love using that word ‘most’… and then not explaining yourself further.
What ‘MOST of that statement’ do you ‘agree’ with… and which part(s) do you NOT agree with?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I was friends with Jesse Steed.
So correct me if I am wrong… but when we had that discussion sometime back where you openly stated ( as a FACT ) that there was (quote) “a GREAT DEAL of ANIMOSITY between Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh”… but you were refusing to say HOW you knew that…
…is it now safe to assume that you heard this directly from ‘your friend’ Jesse Steed?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Marsh did not like me because I called him out a several times on his bullshit attitude.
>> We tolerated each other as fellow WFF’s.
How MANY ‘several times’ was this?
WHEN… WHERE… and what exactly do you mean by ‘bullshit attititude’?
Details, please.
NOTE: Just a reminder in case you are not realizing it. Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed cannot be prosecuted. They are DEAD. But many more firefighters who are STILL alive might REMAIN alive in the future if there can be a full understanding of exactly what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013. If 19 men really are dead either primarily or indirectly because of some testosterone/pissing contest between just the two men who were charged with keeping them alive in the field… that’s ( obviously ) IMPORTANT to know.
Speaking of the ‘infamous Steve Hattenbach’, the USDA ‘Office of General Counsel’ ( OGC ) lawyer who was ‘helping’ US Forestry hide information regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire…
Here is USDA OGC lawyer Steve Hattenbach communicating directly with US Forestry employees asking him if he should just go ahead and flat-out REFUSE to fulfill valid, legal ‘Freedom of Information Act’ ( FOIA ) requestes coming from the Arizona ADOSH investigators.
This was just one in a series of FOIA requests whereby ADOSH was trying to obtain copies of the ‘Panebaker AFUE Air Study’ videos shot in Yarnell that were already known to exist and were already known to have been in the possession of Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAIT investigation ‘team’.
Your tax dollars at work…
————————————————————————————–
From: Hattenbach, Steve – OGC ( Lawyer – USDA Office of General Counsel )
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:51 AM
To: Joyner, Calvin -FS; Agpaoa, Liz -FS
Cc: Daniels, Janine -FS; VanBruggen, Bill -FS
Subject: Yarnell Hill
Cal, Liz, Bill,
I would like 30 minutes with you to discuss 3 topics related to inquiries about Yarnell Hill.
First: Attached is the draft response letter back to ADOSH from your employees responsive to the February request. It has been reviewed and approved by each employee. I simply want to run it by you before I send it.
Second: Attached is a SECOND ( FOIA ) request from ADOSH. When I sent my letters offering written questions from ADOSH for unanswered or remaining questions, I was not anticipating multiple requests. However, I am not sure we want to deny this on that basis alone.
The referenced video is publicly posted on YouTube by our recent FOIA requestor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07WjZGdJQ4
This video was released as part of the air retardant study videos released by Washington last year. There is one person in the agency named Panebaker who is a Forestry tech in R4. I do not know whether that is the person who the video is ascribed to. I can speculate the purpose of the questions. I asked my WO ( USDA OGC Washingtion Office ) for direction or advice on April 4th and received none. I thought I’d run this by you also.
Options:
1). I refuse
2). Someone (me) tries to figure out if we know who took the video and try to answer the questions.
Third: AZ Attorney General has asked me several questions verbally.
I am inclined to refuse to provide further information however I wanted to run that by you as well.
Steve Hattenbach ( Lawyer – USDA OGC )
———————————————————————————————-
WTKTT,
I suppose it would help if I posted the rest of the email excerpt, which includes the Office of General Council (OGC) verbiage in the last sentence. It was unintentional cutting and pasting from an email.
“I assume you are referring to Yarnell conversations. The guidance for our employees on talking about Yarnell hasn’t changed since June 30 of 2013. We are approaching this within the sideboards of ensuring our employees and the US Govt are protected from any potential litigation or other related actions. Questions on Yarnell for our employees would have to be vetted through our Office of General Counsel.”
This is the reply to the OGC question: “Previous guidance still applies for those of our employees that are approached by media and others seeking their input to inquiries and questions on the incident.
“As you also know many of our employees contributed to the SAIT and ensuing efforts like the staff ride that AZ forestry sponsored.
“We encourage continued learning and sense making from these efforts and products.
“If any of our employees have questions about having conversations with you they should ask their supervisor.”
You also posted: “Once again… here you come with one of your infamous ‘partial information’ posts.”
That is correct, glad you enjoy them so much, because I will not give you any details with which to viciously attack and dig into a person’s life. You do NOT need to know that. It does NOT matter.
You posted: “You are obviously pointing out the ‘REAL’ agenda of upper USFS management… and the ‘contradiction’ between what they say publicly and what they are saying privately…”
I completely agree with you there.
Even though these employees are exempt from prosecution or whatever, they have been given written and verbal direction by their supervisor(s). Failure to comply with that direction would result in disciplinary action, e.g. insubordination and/or failure to follow orders or worse. Get over it!
Thanks for reposting the OGC Attorney obfuscation and the Wildland Fire LLC Britt Rosso information on discussing the YH Fire as a learning tool.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on October 1, 2016 at 6:26 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> I suppose it would help if I posted the rest of the email excerpt,
>> which includes the Office of General Council (OGC) verbiage
>> in the last sentence.
Yes. If you are trying to ‘make a point’ and you have EVIDENCE to back it up… it really is ALWAYS ‘useful’ to post ALL of the EVIDENCE required to actually ‘make your point’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It was unintentional cutting and pasting from an email.
Sure. Okay.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> ( snip – original paragraph with the weird ‘sideboards’ reference )
>>
>> ( New sentence that was previously omitted )…
>>
>> Questions on Yarnell for our employees would have to be vetted
>> through our Office of General Counsel.”
Well… now it really DOES matter WHO was sending this email to WHO ( which you say doesn’t matter ).
What was the ‘distribution’ on this ’email’?
Private ( one person to another )?
Intra-Agency?
Inter-Agency?
What is the DATE?
What do the email HEADERS look like?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This is the reply to the OGC question: “Previous guidance still applies
>> for those of our employees that are approached by media and
>> others seeking their input to inquiries and questions on the incident.
>>
>> “As you also know many of our employees contributed to the SAIT
>> and ensuing efforts like the staff ride that AZ forestry sponsored.
>>
>> “We encourage continued learning and sense making from these
>> efforts and products.
It’s hard to know what any of these things “in quotes” actually mean… since you refuse to post the ACTUAL ( complete ) email.
The ‘quoted’ passages above directly contradict each other.
‘Learning” and ‘Sense making” encouraged… but ‘free speech’ is not.
Is there a passage in the email which you are still omitting which says…
“To be clear… we WANT ( and encourage ) our employees to talk with each OTHER about everything anyone knows about what happened in Yarnell… but don’t you dare talk to anyone who does NOT work for US Forestry”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “If any of our employees have questions about having conversations
>> with YOU they should ask their supervisor.”
Who is the YOU… in the context of what you are TRYING to ‘post’?
A Regional Supervisor?
Some direct reference to “The Blue Ridge Hotshots”… one of which might have sent you this email since everyone knows you ‘know’ them?
Whatever point it is you are trying to make is getting LOST because of your ( usual ) refusal to actually fully share information in your possession.
>> RTS
>>
>> You also posted: “Once again… here you come with one of your
>> infamous ‘partial information’ posts.”
>>
>> That is correct, glad you enjoy them so much, because I will not
>> give you any details with which to viciously attack and dig into
>> a person’s life.
See above. Your own refusal to actually share ENOUGH information just waters down whatever POINT it is you seem to be TRYING to make.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You do NOT need to know that.
As YOU well know… I’m the kind of person who decides for MYSELF what it is I want to know.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It does NOT matter.
Again. I will make up my own mind about what ‘matters’… and what doesn’t… thank you very much.
Everyone already knows there is a WHOLE lotta shit that does not matter to YOU… because YOU have an ‘agenda’ that no one quite fully understands. I’m not even sure YOU even ‘remember’ what your own ‘agenda’ is, at this point.
So you are the last one to be telling others still interested in understanding everything about the National Historic Tragedy known as “The Yarnell Hill Fire” what might ‘matter’… and what might not.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You posted: “You are obviously pointing out the ‘REAL’ agenda of
>> upper USFS management… and the ‘contradiction’ between what
>> they say publicly and what they are saying privately…”
>>
>> I completely agree with you there.
And that is still “not news”.
That has been obvious for a very long time.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Even though these employees are exempt from prosecution or
>> whatever, they have been given written and verbal direction
>> by their supervisor(s). Failure to comply with that direction
>> would result in disciplinary action, e.g. insubordination and/or
>> failure to follow orders or worse. Get over it!
I still want to know WHO ( specifically ) has given this ‘instructions’ to YOU ( personally ). You are a ‘freelancer’. You are a ‘contractor’. How were these ‘instructions’ passed on to YOU… and by WHO… and WHEN?
You are showing us an ‘excerpt’ from some mysterious email.
Are you trying to say those ‘excerpts’ above are from an email that YOU, yourself, received… as a ‘retired’ person just ‘double-dipping’ for US Forestry as a ‘Safety Officer’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Thanks for reposting the OGC Attorney obfuscation and the
>> Wildland Fire LLC Britt Rosso information on discussing the
>> YH Fire as a learning tool.
You are most welcome.
And “thanks” are extended to YOU for proving everything I said below about you NOT being interested in everyone knowing the REAL ‘Truth’ about Yarnell by playing ‘dodgeball’ again and NOT answering the other questions I just asked above.
WTKYY,
The ‘quoted passages; you referenced above contradicting each other are the reply to the following:
“The ‘official’ YH Fire SAIT states:
“The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.”
“This report has two parts. Part One includes the fact-based Narrative of the incident and offers the Team’s Analysis, Conclusions, and Recommendations. Part Two, the Discussion section, is meant to prompt discussion and facilitate learning. It explores multiples concepts and perspectives, in order to support the broader community seeking to make sense of the accident and to improve safety and resilience.”
There is also an ‘official’ PowerPoint by Yarnell Hill Fire Human Factors Investigator Brad Mayhew, titled “Yarnell Hill Fire Case Study: A Learning and Discussion Tool for Firefighters.”
It further states:
“The purpose of this case study is to provide discussion and learning exercises for operational firefighters.
“Much is unknown, unclear, or uncertain about this accident. Yet, there are opportunities to learn and improve for the future.
“What you can do: use available information, try to put yourself in the situation, think about your own experiences, and discuss with other firefighters.
“Group dialog will provide some of the best opportunities for insight and learning.
“This slideshow is a tool for facilitating discussion.”
I get it.
They are ‘talking out of both sides of their mouths’.
That is ‘not news’.
That has been obvious for quite some time.
So what is your real POINT here by just showing us some ‘excerpts’ from some mysterious email that we don’t even know the full ‘distribution’ on… or who the mysterious YOU is being referenced in the email?
Are you just trying to show that there is ‘proof’ that USFS employees are still being told to keep their mouths shut about Yarnell… and that YOU are OKAY WITH THAT ( and the rest of us should be, too )?
If so… see the other post just below.
I think that would just be more proof that part of your mysterious ‘agenda’ is still to act as an ‘apologist’ for management.
With regards to your suggestion to “Get over it”…
Sorry. I’ve never really been a ‘joiner’.
I left out another ‘thank you’.
‘Thank you’ for also proving, once again, that part of your mysterious ‘agenda’ is to be an ‘apologist for management’.
Your entire comment above along the lines of “See… here’s the PROOF that even now everyone is STILL being told to keep their fucking mouths shut about Yarnell… so GET OVER IT!” just proves the point.
What you seem to be saying is that you are OKAY WITH THAT… and the ‘rest of us’ ( myself included ) should be, too.
Sorry. I’ve never really been a ‘joiner’.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Is there a passage in the email which you are still omitting which says…”
““To be clear… we WANT ( and encourage ) our employees to talk with each OTHER about everything anyone knows about what happened in Yarnell… but don’t you dare talk to anyone who does NOT work for US Forestry”.”
NO such passage and/or anything even remotely related to that.
You also posted: “How were these ‘instructions’ passed on to YOU… and by WHO… and WHEN?”
Try researching the Federal Personnel Manual (FPM) and/or the 5 CFR, Part 735 and/or Merit Systems Protection Board caselaw..
It would be far simpler if you would just answer the fucking question.
Well, alrighty then. It is what it is, okay.
As the saying goes: Stick a fork in me, I’m done.
Well.. I hope as you ‘sign off’, then, that the last few exchanges have helped you answer your own recent query that expected US to supply YOU with a ‘reason’ why you keep posting here.
Only YOU can answer that question.
If you are not willing to share ‘what you know’… ( here, anyway )… then I hope you someday find a place to do that.
There are still ‘other lives’ at stake.
I know what you are trying to do.
You are trying to stay ‘relevant’ and keep ‘double-dipping’ to be in situations where you can actually ‘make a difference’ and try and keep WFF safe ‘on the line’.
The Strawberry fire must have been a massive ‘gut check’ for you.
You were THERE. You were a ‘Safety Officer’ on that very fire were some first-year Hotshot still DIED.
As long as you are ‘double-dipping’ I think you will still just continue to withhold information.
Life if full of personal choices.
Good luck with yours.
Apparently the local sheriffs department should have significant influence in the Yarnell Fire. What are the findings from this department?
The only ‘Police’ or ‘Sheriff’s Department’ or DPS personnel that seem to have ever been officially ‘interviewed’ by any investigators following the tragedy were the DPS officers assigned to DPS Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’ ( the one that first located the shelters and the bodies from the air ).
That would be Pilot Clifford Brunsting, DPS Officer Charles Main, and DPS Officer/Paramedic Eric Tarr.
DPS Officer Tarr is the one who exited Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’ when it ‘set down’ near the Boulder Springs Ranch and he is the one who hiked west to the deployment site and was the first to confirm the 19 fatalities.
But there are also some ‘DPS’ radio logs.
They never appeared in any of the ‘public evidence’ folders for either the SAIT or the ADOSH investigation(s)… but ABC ‘World News’ obtained ( and published ) some of the ‘Arizona Department of Public Safety’ ( DPS ) police LOGS related to the Yarnell Hill Fire Incident.
Those DPS logs obtained by ABC news are still sitting HERE…
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kpho/KPHO%20NEWS/HOTSHOT%20CREW%20DPS%20reports.pdf
There are no ‘major revelations’ in these particular DPS logs, but they do give a pretty good idea of the ‘radio traffic’ that was taking place between the DPS officers themselves.
On the morning of July 1, 2013… at 6:46 AM… we see that it was DPS who was specifically asked to ‘do something’ about the fact that MEDIA Helicopters were now appearing over the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area.
The sun was coming up… and ‘fire command’ was freaking out that the MEDIA might actually get a shot of the deployment site from a helicopter. It was still not general knowledge that sometime during the night ( and before YCSO investigators even had a chance to access the scene ) the firefighters who had been spending the night at the Helms Ranch ( Darrell Willis, Corey Moser and ( according to Moser ) about 30 others ) had walked all over the deployment scene laying TARPS over all the bodies.
The YCSO detectives were ‘suprised’ to find that the tarps placed over eveything before they even had a chance to examine the scene… and that so many people had been give free access to the deployment site during the night to ‘disturb’ the scene.
A YCSO police officer had been assigned to ‘guard’ the site just a few hours after the incident and throughout the night… but he apparently is the one who allowed any number of firefihters ‘free access’ to the site during the night.
The YCSO detectives used their ‘Pharo 3D’ imaging system immediately after arriving at the deployment site. They FIRST took a complete set of 3D images BEFORE removing the tarps that some uknown number of firefighters had placed all over the site. Then they ( carefully ) removed all the tarps and took ANOTHER complete set of 3D images.
BOTH sets of these ‘Pharo 3D’ images were delivered to BOTH the SAIT investigators and the ADOSH investigators… but none of this ‘evidence’ was ever released as part of the ‘public evidence record’ by either the SAIT or by ADOSH.
It is also known that right after DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 dropped DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr off at the ‘cattle pond’ just north of the Boulder Springs Ranch so he could hike to the deployment site… Ranger 58 was low on fuel and flew back to the Helibase up on Hays Ranch Road to refuel. On its return flight… there was now a YCSO ‘Captain’ onboard who had TWO cameras with him. A VIDEO camera and a still-image camera.
Ranger 58 hovered over the deployment site after refueling and this YCSO Captain took both VIDEOS and ‘still photos’ of the deployment site from the Helicopter.
As far as anyone knows… NONE of THAT ‘photographic evidence’ was ever seen by anyone… including the SAIT and ADOSH investigators… and is ( presumably ) still just sitting in a file cabinet somewhere over at the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
I have read that in other fatal firefighter turnovers the site was undisturbed for maybe 24 hours or more whereas in the yarnell hill fire situation the site was disturbed by many and bodies were moved offsite before sunrise—that appears to be against protocol for this situation. Why wasnt the site protected to preserve evidence and who decided this?
burnovers, not turnovers
So—it sounds like Darell Willis and Cory Moser made the decisions in those first hours at the deployment site as to how to proceed and YCSO officials deferred.
Is that accurate?
Yes… that is what testimony and evidence still indicates…but what EXACTLY went on out there that night, and WHO was making all the decisions, remains unknown.
NO ONE should have been allowed to be ‘walking the deployment site’ that night and ‘touching’ anything at all prior to the arrival of the YCSO detectives shortly before dawn.
But they ( firefighters ) were doing exactly that.
And in an interview with Cory Moser just shortly before the first anniversary… Cory Moser said ( on camera ) that he and the other 25-30 firefighters who all ‘spent the night’ out there near the deployment site had all made some kind of secret ‘PACT’ to never talk about what happened.
From the following post made back in Chapter XII ( 11 ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xii/#comment-263339
——————————————————–
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A lot of Fire Fighters around Prescott know
>> the answers.
>>
>> Some were talking between each other the
>> day after the burn over and talking to
>> people outside the City circles. You just can
>> not hide all that radio traffic.
They actually might have all started ‘talking to each other’ and ‘exchanging information’ that very NIGHT… up near the deployment site.
Prescott Battalion Chief Corey Moser pretty much admitted that was the case when he granted an on-camera interview to AZFAMILY just before the first anniversary.
Moser was Willis’ right-hand-man that day in Yarnell and he himself ended up spending the night out at the deployment site with what he himself says were a whopping 25-30 other firefighters.
He also told AZFAMILY on-camera that those 25-30 firefighters had sort of formed an actual PACT of some kind that very night to NOT ever talk about what HAPPENED.
AZFAMILY
Firefighter who was at Yarnell Hill recalls tragedy, aftermath
Posted on June 30, 2014 at 12:48 PM – by Fields Moseley
Bio | Email | Follow: @fieldsmoseley
http://www.azfamily.com/news/wildfires/Firefighter-on-the-line-recalls-tragedy-265221861.html
At +2:40 in the VIDEO interview with Prescott Battalion Chief Cory Moser.. the reporter says this…
——————————————-
Moser says that, ya know, there are some parts of that night that are being kept ‘sacred’. He said that the firefighters up there… they kinda decided to kinda keep a PACT about.. uh. what had HAPPENED… and what they had seen up there… and just kinda keep that between them.
———————————————–
The written copy accompanying the video doesn’t use the exact word PACT but essentially then reports the same thing that was in the VIDEO interview…
——————————————————–
“The No. 1 overriding thought is we got to get these guys back home,” Moser said.
Everything was secondary to being with their fallen brothers. Moser said 20 to 30 people, who all knew these men, gathered on that hill in Yarnell together, yet isolated from the world where the news was spreading.
“We all kept vigil out there all night long,” he said. “It was a long night. I don’t think you would find anyone that was sleepy. We were all pretty wide awake.”
Their grief was overwhelming, but their concerns simple: Show these men the utmost respect and get them to their families. They covered the bodies with American flags and got trucks ready to move them.
Moser said parts of what he and his men saw, said and did during their nightlong vigil for the Yarnell 19 is something the firefighters have kept to themselves.
———————————————————–
SIDENOTE: The AZFAMILY news interview with Prescott fireman Corey ( also spelled in some media articles as ‘Cory’ ) Moser is a little misleading with regards to the ‘American Flags’.
The article suggests that the bodies were covered with ‘American Flags’ in the middle of the night.
That is NOT the case.
The firefighters who were allowed ‘access’ to the deployment site many hours before the first YCSO detectives even arrived placed TARPS over all the bodies in the middle of the night… not the ‘flags’.
They were absolutely paranoid about what might happen at dawn and the chance that a MEDIA Helicopter might get a shot of the deployment site.
It is also still not known what ELSE might have taken place in the middle of the night… or what else might have been ‘disturbed’ out there at that accident site prior to any police investigators getting the chance to examine the scene.
The ‘American Flags’ were eventually draped over the body bags AFTER the YCSO detectives had finished their initial examination of the accident site and AFTER all the bodies were put into ‘body bags’, carried away from the site, and all ‘lined up’ in a spot near where the bulldozed path to the site ended.
Pretty much right where that ‘flagpole’ was finally erected on the site following the tragedy.
After all the ‘body bags’ were ‘lined up’ there to be transported out… that is when the ‘American Flags’ were placed over all the ‘body bags’… and that is when Darrell Willis stood right about in the center of the actual deployment site and took his now-infamous photograph looking back to the east of those ‘flag-draped’ bodies lined up over by the end of the dozer push.
Darrell Willis is also the one who then immediately started ‘sending’ that photograph he took to family members… and one of them posted it to their Facebook page even before the bodies had arrived at the Medical Examiner’s office in Phoenix.
Why didn’t the YCSO officials protect the scene until the YCSO detectives arrived?
There must have been a way to cover the scene and keep news helicopters from taking pictures without walking all over the area.
Was YCSO intimated by Willis and/or Cory Moser?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
October 3, 2016 at 2:55 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Why didn’t the YCSO officials protect
>> the scene until the YCSO detectives
>> arrived?
>>
>> There must have been a way to cover the
>> scene and keep news helicopters from
>> taking pictures without walking all
>> over the area.
>>
>> Was YCSO intimated by Willis
>> and/or Cory Moser?
We still don’t know the full story there.
It still remains possible that ONLY the TWO YCSO Sheriff’s deputies who were ‘guarding the site’ were the ones who actually went ‘under the police tape’ and put all those TARPS on the bodies.
Maybe they did it at the firefighter’s request WITHOUT letting the firefighters themselves go ‘under the police tape’.
Or maybe not. Maybe they were letting anyone who even LOOKED like a ‘firefighter’ go ‘under the police tape’ all night long and do whatever the fuck they wanted to.
We ( still ) don’t know for sure.
We ( still ) don’t even know WHO those ‘TWO YCSO deputies even were and they were never ‘interviewed’ by anyone ( that we know of ).
On page 176 of author Fernanda Santos’ book “The Fire Line”… she says that there were TWO YCSO Sheriff’s deputies ‘standing guard’ out at the deployment site all night.
Page 176 is where Santos is talking about when Prescott firefighters J.P. Vicente and Matt Demenna, along with Danny Parker ( Deceased GM Hotshot Wade Parker’s father ) first ‘arrived’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch sometime during the night after the three of them drove down from Prescott to join the other firefighters ‘keeping vigil’ overnight near the deployment site.
From her page ‘176’…
———————————————
Willis approached Matt, Danny and J.P. and hugged them, looking exhausted…
Willis tried to explain to them what had happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots, though he couldn’t quite understand it. He said that a bulldozer had been working to build a road up to where they lay, and that they hadn’t been alone for a minute since they’d been found; TWO sheriff’s deputies stood guard.
———————————————
“TWO sheriff’s deputies stood guard.”
Oddly enough… in Fernanda Santos’ NOTES section at the back of her book… the “Coming Home” ( Chapter 13 ) where the quotes above appear is the ONLY CHAPTER of her book where she REFUSES to supply her ‘sources’ in her NOTES section.
There are basically 15 ‘Chapters’ in Santos’ book… each with a ‘name’… and in her NOTES section she provides detailed ‘source’ information for claims being made in ALL of her ‘Chapters’… except for just that one single Chapter 13 entitled “Coming Home”.
Very strange.
14 out of 15 Chapters FULLY ‘documented’ as to ‘sources’… but only ONE left totally ‘undocumented’ and its the one that talks about what happened overnight out at the deployment site.
However… in her NOTES for some of the OTHER chapters… she does ‘confirm’ that she had direct access to Prescott Firefighter Mat Demenna, and that she was able to ‘interview’ him extensively.
So at least part of her narrative from her ‘un-sourced’ Chapter 13 most likely came from those direct interviews with Prescott Firefighter ( and former GM Hotshot and Wade Parker’s close friend ) Matt Demenna.
was engaged in call with a homeless person and guidance given…I am sorry but we cannot meet all needs of those who are in that spot…but I am straight forward and if I can; I do…
I now have time to sit and explain things on the topic of BURNOUT OPERATIONS and when I say I saw the evidence and I am not the only one; facts.
However I typed prematurely in a sense and maybe it is because as we drove up to Sonny’s and I saw the blood scattered and splattered than saw the very ducks I mothered to “life” when they were wrote off as dead as babies I had nurtured them into a good life and the 3 ducks; Norton, Audie, Murphey laid murdered…
Norton was originally named Norman until I heard John MacLean spoke sad about the hikers at a smokejumper convention so out of emotions I went to duck name changing spot and changed it to Norton; kept his same soc. sec. # (wink)…
I wept so deep and I think all the loved ones I have met and all the homeowners that I helped came out in that break down on the dirt as I grabbed all three and hugged them deeply welting out a horrifying crying scream getting blood on me and I kept weeping as if all I held in was pouring out and it has been so hard to learn the evidence and have to wait for “ducks in order” so I could not even comprehend how they laid murdered the ducks than I saw the new desert dog and then Sonny stated he did not comprehend or get that in the morning he told me I was cookie cutter and I worry too much on animals and I am just an avoidable person and yet it all laid there raw and deep that here I am not able to hold on to details I should until the others have their stuff ready to go…
but I was frozen and felt scared of the big dollar entities.
Sonny drove me to Congress because I felt he did not understand my depth of sadness and so I laid on the dirt of where I just buried the ducks in my yard for many hours as I held them one last time and I thought I was lucky because I got to hold them one last time when so many people did not on the 19 and all fallen and what am I actually holding in these details…
there has to be a way to discuss burnout operations without compromising what others know and myself…
yes, wwtktt there is not yet concrete public information on topic but John Dougherty WILL BE the FIRST AND ONLY media person to GET the evidence when its time
and I am not privvy to answer alot of back channel questions and some can still lay on the very thought NO aerial or ground burnout operations but unfortunately the MISSING ELEMENTS and interviews I have had since 2013 I am not allowed to be with you and with purity and honesty state like you get to think…
I would like to learn about accelerators and is there one that generates more power than another so please note THANK YOU deeply on that topic.
It is hard to publicly type on it when I know people I helped clean up their burned homes and loved ones of these men and some come here so it is a sensitive tough topic
and most do not want to even engage on it when it does because it almost seems no way…
and if I had not seen what I have I would say I was on the fence as I always been since 6-30-13 on that topic…
I recently ran into a man named Matt who stated he has a video over by Manzanita/Sesame on fire 6-30-13 and I said I want that video to see smoke and vehicles and so I am awaiting to see that video…so there is MORE TO THE YHF than the SAIR…
I lay on the earth and think of the 19 and all fallen and really focus to that afternoon and WHAT WE SAW and all and how even on the day the SAIT interviewed us and one spoke up and asked us did we think the low altitude aerial contributed to the end results and I remember saying how would I know that is not my area of knowledge but it did not help was my reply…
THOSE PEOPLE in that room do remember that call and even they changed topic quick…so that always laid “unsettled” to me as to why would I be asked that like I know fire behavior and all that lingo—man if it was not for Wayne and Holly Neill I would not have learned alot of firefighting lingo and also Dr. Ted Putnam was on that hike in 2013.
at times I get a feel some are willing to step on to this sandbox and others feel it is a quicksand box and one not to even talk on because NO WAY it could of happened…
for me it seems like the game HOT or COLD I played with my family as a kid…
WWTKTT does NOT realize, just, how close he has been…
and in the back channel I see today
“So-o-o-o… WHAT EXACT TIME AND DURATION WERE BOTH OF THOSE FLIGHTS… from where did each take off and each land, again… was the ‘Ranger 58’ outfitted with prerequisite “aerial ignition” devices of ANY sort… was Dan Sullivan, at all involved in these flights… was the temporary heli-port outfitted with “special ignition equipment” of any sort… where were trucks carrying DRIP TORCHES and FUEL… was such SUPPLIED to GMHS~BLUE-RIDGE~DOC-LEWIS… were hand-held “pistols” available, at all ???”
…I have no clue how to answer that but thank you to some who back channeled me the answers…maybe Marti could…she was always helpful on that kind of stuff…
and I heard ” (for sure, RTS is going to ask for more “clarification”).”
BUT I HOPE EVERYONE WOULD REQUIRE SUCH BEFORE JUST ACCEPTING IT
but do know and note I would never place that out public based on humble opinions…okay…
“Wildfire Reader” AND the above referenced comment by GARY on setting fires… folks in this profession, take great pleasure in the sense of power and drama to be derived from being involved with “setting fires” !!! ??????????????????????
read, read, read Stephen Pyne’s books and articles (learn the man) and not only learn his historian dialogue but the approaches to wildfire industry- it is almost IMPORTANT to have this in every public school system a class on firefighting and law enforcement to comprehend the systems we have nowadays…
if you go on youtube and research not only helitorch but LOOK at the comments made to and pay attention the hits to the video too…
Hmm-m-m… CAREFULLY-VERY-CAREFULLY read over WTKTT’s most recent 2 comments…
than I think best-guess-estimate of WHO was WHERE and WHEN…
The “last thing” one needs at this point in time is for a major “verbal confrontation” to break out on the forum BEFORE enough of the “truly few critical thinkers” have had sufficient opportunity to be introduced and discuss the merits of evidence for their own selves so just “shelf” the data…
but do not disregard it is all…
but keep in mind…
IDENTIFY “the fire, really, was DO-ing between 10:00-11:00am or, better yet, between 9:00-12:00pm on 30Jun2013 and WHO (personell) WAS PHYSICALLY “WHERE” ON THE CHECKERBOARD AT THIS TIME OF DAY, ANYWAY ?
so keep that thought in mind who was where and etc…
let’s not make this a HOT BUTTON ISSUE, until the evidence is public…thank you…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on September 28, 2016 at 9:29 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I now have time to sit and explain things on the topic of
>> BURNOUT OPERATIONS and when I say I saw the evidence
>> and I am not the only one; facts.
Joy… I think we all ‘get it’ at this point.
You have been telling us for days now that there is ( apparently ) some kind of ‘new evidence’ that ( if I am parsing your statements correctly ) will PROVE that there WAS some kind of heretofore ‘unknown’ BURNOUT operation happening ( possible ‘aerial’ ) near Yarnell or Glen Ilah on the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
And I think ( again, if I am parsing your statements correctly ) you have made it clear that some other ‘things’ have to happen BEFORE you are ‘allowed’ to talk about it.
So we are all just ( once again ) ‘mushrooms’ right now… waiting for the ‘sun to shine’.
It’s going top be really, really SAD if we discover there WAS such a ‘burnout’… and that it has taken all this time to learn about it… but if it’s the TRUTH… then so be it.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Norton, Audie, Murphey laid murdered…
>>
>> They laid murdered the ducks than I saw the new desert dog
So sorry this happened, Joy… but were you somehow trying to say that “the new desert dog” had something to do with the ‘murders’?
The way you ran those two thoughts together up above that almost ‘seemed’ to be what you were saying.
If you are sure the “new desert dog” was NOT responsible… then WHO do you think actually did it? Another neighborhood dog… a wild animal?… or HUMANS?
It was the desert dog but in my way of thinking I lay blame to owner too…but he has his way of thinking…and so I lay it in the past but it still breaks my heart.
I’m sorry for your loss, Joy.
I had ‘pet ducks’ myself when I was younger.
Yeah..it was hard because they laid so lifeless and I had to ACCEPT it and I couldn’t knowing all the tough times how I had to hand feed them in the start thru the Winter to than watch them give me so many happy times and they all had their own personality so thank you for the sorry for your loss…it was like 3 years of grief was let out in that ? weeping moment…I am so very sorry for the losses..the 19 and all fallen and here in town…so sorry
Also another reason I was premature in typing…I have vomited blood since April 5 2016 and it seems such a dilly dally of xrays hida scan cat scan mris blood labs alot and I for sure maybe a shift in brain tumors but believe it or not the bs is my throat/thyroid gland tumor and renal and gallbladder and chest wall…minor heart and lungs concerns when compared but I go Friday to talk shop…body shop and what’s next but I feel with purity that I cant take these rough vomiting spells especially the blood crap…so a huge part wanted the world to know what i know very few know except some good folks who can make a difference know and I feel bad knowing in a way because you should know too…and I rexplained myself because I was overwhelmed by back channels response so i said it again here so im sorry wwtktt for redundancy
Hoping doctors can find a way to stop vomiting.
The owner is Sonny–so I did not tell the dog to kill the ducks–I paid for them but they were Joy’s pets and it was that I believed the ducks were in kennel and Joy thinks I did it on purpose. Way off on that one.
Anyhow Joy has changed my email password and I have no way to get it back since it is assigned to her phone number which I pay for–does that make sensed? Well [email protected] belongs to Joy so don’t think any emails from there are coming from me.
Her opinions are valuable here–she does lots of research on things and spends plenty on FOIA’s, etc. She is working to get things set right and I see her as a valuable asset to getting to the truth of the 19 deaths, home losses, local deaths of 110+ since the Yarnell disaster of 6-30-13 and protecting taxpayer interests. Do not take her lightly, she is a stickler to this fire and helping the wild land fire fighter interests.
It is indeed sad that authorities can lie and they can justify those lies. It is well know that law enforcement uses subterfuge and lies to get at criminal elements. Nowadays, FS, BLM, Firemen, and just about any even County or Dog Catcher mentality are authorities with that ability that puts them above the law if they claim their lies benefit whatever ends they are trying to meet and it can be aligned with so called public interest. It is that these methods and allowances to law enforcement and authorities are dangerous and do convict many innocent people and do cover up operations that are highly suspect. This has been proven, for example where Illinois found that 14 death row prisoners were proven innocent after DNA came available to verify crime scene convictions. Illinois banned the death sentence for that reason. England saw its abuse and banned the ability of law enforcement and authorities to use lies for convictions. I can see that law enforcement and other enforcement authorities that get in the habit of using lies and subterfuge methods can eventually bleed that over into their methods to make themselves what they want the public to believe. I believe this has happened in the Yarnell Fire incident.
Actions to clean up a nasty occurrence have to be heroic. I do realize many want the status quo. But the end result is killing too many firemen and allowing to much graft–that going to the higher management including all the way from double dipping to allowing situations to develop so immense resources of tax payer dollars are expended on attempts to remedy these out of control situations.
It has been said many times that these officials will go to every extent to protect their positions, reputations and incomes. They extol virtues among themselves when none are coming–and I speak here of my own knowledge here in the Yarnell fire debacle. Redaction, mum orders, and even threats keep the lower man that hears and sees what goes on from the front lines is beat down, while at the same time his income is meager to the work and risk he has–while those in the elite circle enjoy the
high praise and financial benefits. More of those millions need to be fed to that man that is truthfully on the line.
This is a billion dollar industry and I have been told to fear it. True, but then in America we are free to have our opinions–when those are taken away, and they have been slowly eroding–then we may as well start calling each other comrade.
I have learned much from Gary Olson. He indeed is one fellow among the others on this site that will not back down from exposing corruption. About the fellow on the line, he says much–they have hard work when they are on the fire edge, they have courage and risk their lives. They deserve plenty in the way of pay and coverage and if it were miners, I would say a miner is hard to find, a shifter a dime a dozen. I think that is also true of wild land fire fighters.
I agree with Sonny that Joy has spent untold hours researching the Yarnell fire.
I see her as someone that is extremely knowlegeable about the fire as well as the community and residents. She freely gives of her time to help others.
When she writes I see it as truthful,passionate and objective.
We are all lucky that she is committed to finding out what happened at Yarnell.
Both joy and sonny humanize what the Yarnell community has and is continuing to go through.
I agree.
Yes likely the top people that are most feared in exposing the real truth of the Yarnell decable include Joy Collura, Gary Olson, Wtktt, Rockstead, Dianne, Marti, Dr. Ted Putnam, Ben of the civil liberties union, a few Senators and a few billionaires. Sonny is no threat being among the bottom feeders of said elite, but then I can opine, maybe.
Good that the men of clout are on this so I am not worried the swat team is going to be out my back door They do not surround Senator’s houses or billionaires residences. You can not get near either without a pass and the governor runs the state police.
Keep up the good work, the Arizona Govenor has been lied too, and she will not be happy once informed.
My copy of The Wildfire Reader just arrived —looking forward to reading it!
http://www.accuweather.com/en/features/trend/firefighting_foam_water_contam/60375783
Thank you, Joy.
AccuWeather
Aticle Title: Millions of Americans may be drinking water contaminated by firefighting foam, study says
Posted: September 29, 2016; 10:40 PM ET
By Bianca Barr Tunno
http://www.accuweather.com/en/features/trend/firefighting_foam_water_contam/60375783
From that article…
—————————————————————
Millions of people across the U.S. could be exposed to drinking water contaminated with chemicals from firefighting foam, according to a recent study.
The combination of toxic chemicals in aqueous film-forming foam (AFFF) has been found in public water supplies from California to Rhode Island and researchers from UC Berkeley and Harvard University report these highly fluorinated chemicals are linked to cancer, obesity, high cholesterol and endocrine problems, among other concerns.
Firefighters are not always using water to attack stubborn or dangerous fires. Often, they use specially formulated foams that, along with being wet, can take away the oxygen content in a fire. However, the study published in Environmental Science and Technology Letters outlines environmental contamination across the country with these potentially hazardous materials.
—————————————————————
After reading a chapter in The Wildfire Reader “Burning Down The House” I am wondering if Yarnell was “sacrificed “during the Yarnell fire.
Firefighting services (retardant drops) over Yarnell on the afternoon of 6/30/2013 were focused on Peeples Valley and didn’t arrive over Yarnell for a critical 40 minutes when it would be too late to make a difference in Yarnell. Air attack deliberately avoided Yarnell during this time.
Was Peeples Valley considered worth saving over Yarnell? If so,why?
Also—reconstruction aid and efforts seem to be difficult for Yarnell homeowners.
Has relocation assistance been offered to Yarnell homeowners?
Yarnell seems to be in an area that is vulnerable during wildfires. According to Wildfire Reader —“In those areas of extremely high risk where homes already have been built, public and private relief agencies should offer relocation assistance after the inevitable fire rather than helping burned -out residents rebuild in same vulnerable places.
Is this applicable to Yarnell?
Federal aid for assistance was denied Yarnell. The Fema guy here running things, Jerry Faust I believe correctly spelled, attempted and was a straight up guy trying to help locals. Only about 3% of Federal lands were burned but Fema ran the lockdown and cleanup operations.
Dianne We did realize that point in fact. Their stated reason that the drops were made toward Peeples Valley instead of Yarnell was due to smoke and wind danger. The mountains are west and east around Yarnell where Peeples Valley is in the clear for flights. There was one huge smoke and ember cloud that looked like an A-bomb cloud. So I would believe it to be a valid reason. Joy has a photo of that ember and smoke we were going through in a photo though our old station wagon. You could barely see 20 ft. ahead and embers were hitting the windshield in abundance.
Who told you this Charlie–about winds being too high in Yarnell so drops were made in peeples Valley?
NOTE: Brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 28, 2016 at 6:19 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Yes, I admitted to having ‘an AGENDA,’ seeking the TRUTH remember?
>> Which I fully admitted I had.
Then tell me ( honestly, please )…
With ALL of your ‘sources’ and all of your current/active and continuing ( paid ) ‘involvement’ in the WFF business in/around Arizona… have you ever ONCE lifted a finger to try and find out ( yourself ) WHO all these ‘people’ ARE that were ‘communicating’ with Granite Mountain during the time when Mike Dudley and the SAIT said there was a ‘blackout’… and that no one ‘knew where they were or where they were going’?
Have you EVER used your ‘insider status’ and ‘sought the real TRUTH’ there?
I don’t even need the ‘details’ for the moment.
A simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ there will suffice, for now.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Your agenda seems to be harping on me.
You are the one who keeps posting that you ‘know things’… but then you just play ‘dodge ball’ when anyone tries to decipher your ‘partial information’ posts and find out what it is you aren’t saying… and why.
If you consider that ‘harping’… then I am guilty as charged.
Famous for it.
I am going to repeat this just to put my old friend in the hot seat…as often as I can as an obstacle to the truth. RTS AKA Robert, AKA Bob, AKA Fred, knows EVERYTHING that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire by now and he had known it for years.
RTS made a deal with the Devil, Satan, Beelzebub, the Antichrist, the Beast, the Deceiver, and Lucifer…he did something he was not AUTHORIZED to do, he traded anonymity, confidentiality and secrecy for information. Even though he knows that information could possibly have already have saved wildland firefighters lives if it would have been widely disseminated.
RTS wonders why I think he is a Richard Cranium…really?
I know why I did not get the same information he did (other than he is wired into the matrix and I am not), here was my deal. Tell me…and I will tell everyone else, I will give you anonymity….but not confidentiality.
If I am wrong…and there really is nothing else of any great importance out there we don’t know yet, my old friend needs his head examined and he should be required to pass a fitness for duty examination before he goes out again as a safety officer, because he keeps coming here and wasting all of our time…especially his, with his bullshit..
Well…that didn’t go well. I am having a hard time listening to all of the left wing talk shows explain just how bad Trump lost the debate to blog properly.
I should have said, “I am going to repeat this as often as I can, just to keep my old friend on the hot seat . I believe RTS, AKA Robert, AKA Bob, AKA Fred, is an obstacle to the truth. He knows EVERYTHING that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire by now and he has known it for years.”
There that is a little better.
Oh…and one more thing Fred, I believe you have a profit motive to conceal what you know because you are double dipping. I don’t have a problem with you double dipping, what I do have a problem with is you using your position as a double dipper to collect evidence and then withhold the same evidence to protect your position as a double dipper.
Furthermore, I think you are deliberately engaging in obfuscation rather than clarity on what happened on the YHF to further your own interests, both personal and financial. We all have to decide what we are willing to do for money…and I disagree with your choices.
As far was why I think you should continue to expose yourself to this kind of abuse on this blog…I don’t think you should. I think your posts are intended as distractions and you have obviously attended the Trump surrogate school of deflection and maybe the Killery surrogate school of deflection as well.
Too bad my old governor walks around in a marijuana induced haze half the time dazed and confused or he might be able to make a difference in this election. I mean…how hard is it to name one (1) world leader you respect, other than to finally sputter the ex-president of Mexico and then be unable to name which ex-president of Mexico you are referring to?
And for all of the naysayers out there in cyber land…I do have it on good authority there are significant portions of this story that have yet to be told or made public. There are a lot of people withholding a lot of information.
And as far as Joy and her rambling incoherent train of thought and pending evidence goes…mark me down in the SKEPTICAL column, although I hope to be proven wrong.
That is all…please carry on.
And so I went back and read old stuff and it was Sonny who glazed on subject before me and yet he is never included in being a part of being called a person who says skeptical information and yet the hikers are not only people who know but skeptism should not be the adjective of the day but curious to gain more details because if one plays skeptical and uses my details and not Sonny or others than I have nothing further to offer any one because I have tried my hardest to be loyal to those trying too gain their platform to right folks but I aint the right gal to know the truths and you want my humble opinion this fire took up too much of my time and life and I have no reason to come here and be the sole target when I went back and read Sonnys comment but you are not skeptical of Sonny just me…
how goes that line in “Star Wars” with the fish-like-uniformed-character… “It’s a trap, Admiral, it’s a TRAP!” GARY is “goading” me with his criminal investigator ways, like he does RTS… thinks saying skeptical to my name and not others may get me to talk…shit I am talking..I am talking better than many that were on the yhf…
I am skeptical of the source of your information and your ability to correctly interpret the information you have been given. I have asked you several times to give me some reason to believe in you and your information, and you haven’t.
And I’m not aware that Sonny is pushing this pending break through you are working on? Sonny seems to be primarily interested in the effects the chemicals have had on the population and the fact that unqualified leaders ordered their men to their deaths for a whole host of reasons that RTS dismisses.
I have disagreed with Sonny on several issues in the past. But I think it is my job, at least it is the job I have assigned myself, to be skeptical when I see things to be skeptical about.
Please prove me wrong. We need a breakthrough. It’s not that I am pushing for your angle to be correct, I am just pushing for whatever angle is correct to become known so we can all move on after learning all there is to learn from this tragedy to reduce the chances it will happen again.
Would you rather I agree with you even when I don’t, just because I like you? If I am reading you clues correctly…it seems to me you are working on the theory that our crew was killed as the result of a backfire that was ignited by aerial ignition using jellied gasoline?
And I’m sorry; I would have thought somebody would have noticed a helitorch flying around spewing out fire; or a terratorch driving around spewing out fire; or a bunch of people running around spewing out fire using what equipment? Fusees? Drip torches? Napalm grenade launchers?
Everything I have seen to date looks like that damn fire came straight down that valley just like it was predicted to do, just when it was predicted to do it, pushed by the outflow boundary wind from the thunder cell everyone could see coming for miles just as the meteorologists told them it would.
The fire crested over the ridge to the north of the crew and swept around the mouth of the box canyon they were in and then roared up the narrow canyon they were trapped in just like flames always do during the burning period with erratic windy conditions in that kind of explosive fuel.
Please tell me what I am missing or have wrong? The only thing I know I am missing is who ordered those men to do (and what was their plan) what everyone either knew, or should have known had a very high chance of killing them because I know the can-do gung ho mentality that permeates throughout the WF community, especially the hotshot culture. And unlike RTS…I think that was a contributing factor that needs to be analyzed to keep it from happening again.
I know for a fact that this is the third time in history the same exact thing has happened. As I have said many times…once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. FYI…be careful what you task a hotshot crew to do…because they just might do it or die trying.
And as always, I am sorry for the loss of your pets, I know how much that hurts and for your ongoing medical problems.
Oh…and one more thing. All of the methods I mentioned above require an organizational structure that I think was far beyond the capacity of the command and control exhibited by the Yarnell Hill Fire Team to requisition, organize and deploy.
Except for the use of fusees that just happened to be in the line packs of WF who was present. And based on my experience, that would be limited to the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Even getting the correct fuel for using drip torches seemed to be out of the reach of the overhead running that fire, much less the drip torches to use the fuel in.
And I have zero experience with all of the other methods except to stay out of the way, but…it all seems too complicated for the Keystone Firefighters who were always behind the power curve and who were trying to run that fire.
And as you know, I am always the last one to pat myself on the back or brag, BUT…I think I can take credit for linking the Yarnell Hill Fire to both the Loop Fire and the Battlement Creek Fire from a historical perspective.
“They” seem to be more than happy to push their agenda that what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire was some kind of freak accident and NOTHING could be further from the TRUTH.
MY REPLY IN CAPS-
Gary Olson says
SEPTEMBER 29, 2016 AT 11:30 AM
I am skeptical of the source of your information AS WHY CERTAIN ONES HAVE ALREADY DONE THEIR DIGGING AND CHECKS AND IF CERTAIN ONES SAID DO NOT SAY ANYTHING BY EMAIL OR PHONE OR SUCH WHAT AM I TO SAY OR DO??? YET YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY BEFORE US PRIVATELY AND THEY JUST NEEDED ME TO BE QUIET SO THEY CAN ENSURE THEIR STUFF IS IN ORDER- I WAS UNABLE TO KEEP TOTALLY QUIET —I HAD TO AT LEAST SAY AS I HAVE— and your ability to correctly interpret the information you have been given. YET I AM ASKING PEOPLE WITH EXPERTISE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION IN AREAS I DO NOT COMPREHEND VERSUS HEARING IT AND CALLING THE PERSON SKEPTICAL —I AM DOING THE HOMEWORK—AND I ALSO PUT OUT WHAT I CAN HERE SO MAYBE SOMEONE READING IT WILL GO “OH, YEAH” AND CATCH AN AREA I DID NOT. BUT NOT MEANT TO TEASE OR FEED TIDBITS BUT SAY MY MAX CAPABILITY ON TOPIC. IT IS NOT MY THING TO TALK AND WHY I ALWAYS SAY THE MISSING ELEMENTS SHOULD SPEAK UP
I have asked you several times NO YOU DID NOT- YOU ASKED ME FOR EXACTLY WHAT I KNOW AND I SAID I WAS TOLD I CANNOT AND YOU TOLD ME I WENT TO SAME SCHOOL OF WRITING AND NO OFFENSE AND IN RECENT WEEKS YOU SAID YOU WOULD FIND A WAY TO HELP ME BUT YOU NEEDED TO KNOW WHAT IS BEING WORKED ON- A RUN DOWN— AND I FELT SOMEONE IN PRIVATE WHO WAS PRESENT TOLD ME TO KEEP IT QUIET BUT SO DARN HARD IN MY OPINION BECAUSE I FEEL IF THE WORLD KNOWS THAN MAYBE PEOPLE LIKE YOU CAN HELP BUT THEY FELT OTHERWISE THAT IT CAN VANISH THE DETAILS SO LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS MENTALITY SINCE IT MATTERS ON WHO IT IS WE HAVE EVIDENCE ON===BIG $$$$… to give me some reason to believe in you and your information, and you haven’t.I AM NOT ASKING ONE SOUL TO “BELIEVE” IN ME OR WHAT MAY BE BUT TO NOTE THERE IS ADDITIONAL NOT YET PUBLIC DETAILS TO YHF AND BOTH FIRES AND IT IS VERY VERY SERIOUS INFORMATION…AND THAT IS ALL I WANT TO BE SENT ACROSS…
And I’m not aware that Sonny is pushing this pending break through you are working on? YOU ALSO SAID I CAN TYPE IT TO YOU BECAUSE NEITHER THE RUSSIANS FSB NOR THE AMERICA NSA ARE INTERESTED IN THE YHF AND WTF IS SO DAMN INTERESTING… I AM NOT WORKING ON ANYTHING—THIS IS NOT MY THING- THIS IS ANOTHERS WHO CAME TO YOU THAT YOU DID NOT BELIEVE TO EXHAUST TO MEET AND SEE THE INFORMATION BUT I CAN BE STRAIGHT FORWARD ONE PERSON WHO WAS PRIVATELY THERE GAVE US THE HEADS UP HE WOULD LEAVE WITHIN 1/2 HOUR IF THERE WAS ZIP AND HE STAYED THE ENTIRE DAY AND IF HE DID NOT HAVE APPT EARLY MORNING WOULD OF CRASHED OVER BECAUSE THERE WAS ALOT OF DATA TO COVER…Sonny seems to be primarily interested in the effects the chemicals have had on the population and the fact that unqualified leaders ordered their men to their deaths for a whole host of reasons that RTS dismisses.AND HE HAS MORE THINGS HE THINKS ON AND THE ONLY REASON HE DOES NOT ENGAGE ON TOPIC BECAUSE HE WAS TOLD NOT TO JUST LIKE ME…BUT YET HE TOO HAS FED TIDBITS IN HIS OWN WAY THE PAST MONTH ON IM. AND THAT IS WHY I SAID THAT…MAYBE HE IS SUBTLE AND I AM “HORRIBLE” IN GETTING WORDS INTO A MEANING…BUT AT LEAST I TRY VERSUS WALKING AWAY AND SAY “FUCK IT ALL”
I have disagreed with Sonny on several issues in the past. But I think it is my job, at least it is the job I have assigned myself, to be skeptical when I see things to be skeptical about. WHY NOT CHANGE SKEPTICAL TO SHELF THE DATA GIVEN AND DOOR NOT CLOSED TO THE CHANCE THERE IS MORE ON TOPIC…I MEAN WHAT THE HECK DID I SEE…
Please prove me wrong. We need a breakthrough. It’s not that I am pushing for your angle to be correct, I am just pushing for whatever angle is correct to become known so we can all move on after learning all there is to learn from this tragedy to reduce the chances it will happen again.TRUE- HENCE WHY I SAY THAT IT IS THAT PERSON PRIVATE CONCERNS AND I AM THE “VOICE” TO SO MANY AND IF IT WAS MY VOICE ONLY AT THIS POINT I COULD GIVE A LESSER SHOT BECAUSE ONLY A HANDFUL GIVE A SHIT WHEN WE HAVE MILLIONS IN THE WORLD…SEEMS SAD…TOO MUCH SMALL TOWN BS…
Would you rather I agree with you I AM NOT ASKING FOR YOU TO AGREE WITH ME—even when I don’t, I AM ASKING IF YOU SAY SKEPTICAL THAN I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS SPOKEN ON TOPIC SO DO NOT EXCLUDE…just because I like you? If I am reading you clues correctly…it seems to me you are working on the theory that our crew was killed as the result of a backfire that was ignited by aerial ignition using jellied gasoline?NO THAT IS NOT CORRECT. I AM PERSONALLY SEEING EVIDENCE THAT IS MUCH BIGGER THAN SOME SHOTS OUT A HELICOPTER…AND IT NEEDS DEPTH INVESTIGATION. MY QUESTIONS ARE VALID ON ACCELERATORS AND WHICH ONE GIVES IS THE MOST POWERFUL
And I’m sorry; I would have thought somebody would have noticed a helitorch flying around spewing out fire; or a terratorch driving around spewing out fire; or a bunch of people running around spewing out fire using what equipment? Fusees? Drip torches? Napalm grenade launchers?
I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THERE WAS SUCH…ALL I SAID IN THE EVIDENCE IT SHOWS NOT APPEARS THAT THERE IS MUCH MORE DEPTH TO THE AREA THAT WAS ON FIRE AND NEEDS A PERSON WHO KNOWS ACCELERATORS IN WHOLE NOT SPECIFIC TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING…WE SEEN THIS NOT ON JUST YHF SO THIS IS SERIOUS AND NOT JUST A FLY BY EVENT CONCERN…
Everything I have seen to date looks like that damn fire came straight down that valley just like it was predicted to do,NOT UNTIL YOU SEE EVIDENCE WE SAW THAT “EXPLAINS” DIFFERENTLY just when it was predicted to do it, pushed by the outflow boundary wind from the thunder cell everyone could see coming for miles just as the meteorologists told them it would.THERE IS MORE- END OF STORY!
The fire crested over the ridge to the north of the crew and swept around the mouth of the box canyon they were in and then roared up the narrow canyon they were trapped in just like flames always do during the burning period with erratic windy conditions in that kind of explosive fuel.GREAT. UNTIL YOU SEE WHAT I DID….CHANGES THINGS…
Please tell me what I am missing or have wrong? THE EVIDENCE. The only thing I know I am missing is who ordered those men to do (and what was their plan) what everyone either knew, or should have known had a very high chance of killing them because I know the can-do gung ho mentality that permeates throughout the WF community, especially the hotshot culture. THAT IS CURRENT PUBLIC ASSESSMENT BUT MAY CHANGE ONCE EVIDENCE REACHES PUBLIC PLATFORM….IT AINT ALL OF IT GARY—
I know for a fact that this is the third time in history the same exact thing has happened. As I have said many times…once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. AND HENCE WHY THE EVIDENCE SHOULD BE SEEN BY YOU BUT NOT FROM ME BUT THE SOURCE—YOU COMPREHEND NOW—IT HAS TO COME FROM THE PERSON THAT IS THE EXPERT ON IT NOT US—IF I BROKE DOWN AND SAID IT TODAY- ALL OF IT….I WOULD BE RIDICULED SO IT DOES TAKE PROPER CHANNELS GARY—
Well OK, but FYI…I had my road trip all planned out and my departure day was set in concrete until my dear shattered her leg if 5 places a couple of day before I was supposed to leave.
NO weight bearing for more than 2 months. I just finished my orderly duties a couple of weeks ago but I am still not free to travel without the old ball and chain..
So…it’s not that I didn’t want to go, it’s that I couldn’t. And driving 1500 miles to hear the same thing you heard requires a lot more commitment than you had to put forth, although I commend you for what you have done to date.
And you know…I thought just a little taste of the meal I would be driving 1500 miles to eat would not have been asking too much, or at least a peek at the menu…was a McDonald’s happy meal or a full El Gordo combination plate waiting for me?
And as I keep saying. I hope I am wrong because if you are on to something solid, some closure may be in sight? And FYI…a backfire would explain everything, especially if it is a backfire involving some or all of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
And apparently you are a lot smarter than RTS because you know that if someone tells you who they are…believe them. I have never hidden who and what I am on this blog from day one.
And FYI…Donald Trump has told the American people who he is….and I believe him.
Gary,
You posted: “… unqualified leaders ordered their men to their deaths for a whole host of reasons that RTS dismisses.”
They ORDERED them to their deaths? Qualified and experienced and trained grown men were ORDERED to their deaths? I think NOT.
They may have been ‘ordered’ to do whatever and they damn sure knew they had the option(s) to say no, no with an option, hell no, drug their feet, or whatever.
So then, in this sense, yes, I dismiss the possibility of being ORDERED to their deaths.
The had numerous choices.
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Gary,
You posted: “as often as I can as an obstacle to the truth. …”
Yes indeed, your ARE an obstacle to the truth. And I choose to ignore your correction to what you “should have said.” We all know that ones first response is almost always what we intended to say in the first place.
“RTS AKA Robert, AKA Bob, AKA Fred, knows EVERYTHING that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire by now and he had known it for years.”
NOPE, not at all. Only in your twisted and confused mind.
And my all time favorite here: “RTS made a deal with the Devil, Satan, Beelzebub, the Antichrist, the Beast, the Deceiver, and Lucifer…he did something he was not AUTHORIZED to do, he traded anonymity, confidentiality and secrecy for information. Even though he knows that information could possibly have already have saved wildland firefighters lives if it would have been widely disseminated.”
It was YOU who made a deal with Satan, the Deceiver, The Liar, and Lucifer. You have been tormented by demons for years Gary based on your postings, which are usually ranting and raving and bragging about yourself and how great you are and we are nothing without you. Pitiful!
That was a huge mistake Gary, but you are the one who believes in Situational Ethics. I do not.
You also posted: “I know why I did not get the same information he did (other than he is wired into the matrix and I am not), here was my deal. Tell me…and I will tell everyone else, I will give you anonymity….but not confidentiality.”
You also are a professionally trained liar and deceiver by your own admission, so why on God’s green Earth would I ever trust you?
You also posted: “If I am wrong…and there really is nothing else of any great importance out there we don’t know yet, my old friend needs his head examined and he should be required to pass a fitness for duty examination before he goes out again as a safety officer, because he keeps coming here and wasting all of our time…especially his, with his bullshit.”
Oh Your Almighty Feculency, how important and all knowing and wise and humble your are. You are as full of shit AND of yourself as a Christmas turkey.
You also posted: “…, I believe you have a profit motive to conceal what you know because you are double dipping. I don’t have a problem with you double dipping, what I do have a problem with is you using your position as a double dipper to collect evidence and then withhold the same evidence to protect your position as a double dipper.”
No profit motive and no withholding evidence here. You claim to have been such a good Investigator. Now you are just a has been.
You also posted: “Furthermore, I think you are deliberately engaging in obfuscation rather than clarity on what happened on the YHF to further your own interests, both personal and financial. We all have to decide what we are willing to do for money…and I disagree with your choices.”
Nope, no engaging in obfuscation rather than clarity here. Yes, we “all have to decide what we are willing to do for money.” I work for money like most people. And I disagree with your choices and you are entitle to disagree with mine, even though your are delusional.
You further posted: “As far was why I think you should continue to expose yourself to this kind of abuse on this blog…I don’t think you should. I think your posts are intended as distractions and you have obviously attended the Trump surrogate school of deflection and maybe the Killery surrogate school of deflection as well.”
Whatever you say Your Feculency.
You also posted: “And for all of the naysayers out there in cyber land…I do have it on good authority there are significant portions of this story that have yet to be told or made public. There are a lot of people withholding a lot of information.:
Based on what you posted here, you are referring to yourself withholding evidence.
Further saith The self imposed Almighty Olson: “That is all….please carry on.” On thank you Your Feculency for giving me your permission and allowing me to carry on.
You are treading on seriously dangerous grounds My Friend, having made a deal with Satan, the Deceiver, The Liar, and Lucifer. You have been tormented by demons for years based on the times of your postings (all hours of the night) in your own admissions and postings. Your ranting and raving and bragging about yourself and how great you are and how we are nothing without you is most pitiful and usually the sign of a mental disorder. However, in your case, it is likely a sign of being possessed.
Satan is also known as the following: Abaddon, the Accuser, the Angel of Light, Apollyon, Belial, the Enemy, the Father of Lies, the god of this age, the Prince of the power of the air, the Tempter, the Wicked One, and several more.
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Ephesians 6:12
Well…I guess we are just going to have to agree do disagree.
Oh…and one more thing RTS. I think you have completely missed the point of several of the things I have said most often on this blog, I have checked out. I am not part the system. I am off the reservation. I had to care what everyone thought about everything for most of my life. Now…I don’t care what anyone thinks about anything.
And that certainly includes you and your god. My God is much more powerful than yours. No one would say the things I have said on this blog if they gave a FUCK about very much. You can’t embarrass me, or make me feel bad, I don’t recognize you, nor are you relevant in my life.
I am on a different plane than you are, can’t you figure that out? People don’t say the things I have said here if I was concerned about very much. And right now, I can’t think of anything I do care about. I am free from almost everything that inhibits most people, especially YOU.
I only have one constituent I need to keep more or less happy. And she doesn’t even know, much less care that this blog or controversy even exists. And if even she goes south and takes our dogs with her, I sure will miss those dogs. You have hundreds of constituents you have to keep happy and answer to.
You think you know me and who and what I am? LMFAO!
In other words my old friend (and I am starting to think we are never going to be as close as we once were) “I’m no longer part of the System. I am above the System. Over it. Beyond it. I am “them”. I am “they”. I am the Man in Black.” (paraphrasing Zed, Men in Black).
No really…all of my tee shirts, and I only wear tee-shirts…are black. All of my shorts are charcoal grey though, so….
And no…we’re not going away, we’re going to stay focused and we’re going to find out EVERYTHING that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire. This blog is going to DEFINE the Yarnell Hill Fire…forever.
Your Feculency,
You posted: “You have hundreds of constituents you have to keep happy and answer to.”
I have no constituents, I do have people I am responsible for. However, it is NOT my responsibility to keep any of those I am responsible for happy. That is not my job.
You also posted: “You think you know me and who and what I am?”
I think I do more than you know because you tell us in almost every one of your posts. I allege that you are a relentless braggart, disingenuous, and Machiavellian to the core. Once again, by your own admission.
You also posted: “Now…I don’t care what anyone thinks about anything.”
Okay then, I notice a contradiction here. So, why do you care so much about what I think?
You also posted: “And that certainly includes you and your god. My God is much more powerful than yours. No one would say the things I have said on this blog if they gave a FUCK about very much. You can’t embarrass me, or make me feel bad, I don’t recognize you, nor are you relevant in my life.”
Your god and my God are definitely not the same. You sold your soul to Satan, so he is your god. The God I worship is the One True Almighty God, the all powerful God of The Bible.
You are absolutely correct. I cannot embarrass you, or make you feel bad, because I do not possess the ability or power to do that. Nor does anyone else. It certainly does appear that I have the power to upset you with things I post and/or what I believe.
Yes, you do “recognize” me or else you would not get so upset with what I post and/or believe. And yes, I am “relevant” in your life because you cannot wait to rip into me for my beliefs and/or posts.
And then you blame me for pissing you off or whatever. You give me that power by reacting that way.
You also posted: “I am free from almost everything that inhibits most people, especially YOU.”
Really, then why do you get so upset all the time about my beliefs and/or posts?
You think you know me and who and what I am? LMFAO!
Your Servant of Satan,
And you have given the Great Deceiver power over you because of your greed and the deal you made with him. You have been playing both ends against the middle and it has finally caught up with you.
You have traded 30 pieces of silver for what…Judas? Your integrity, your honor, your reputation. You give lip service to wildland firefighting safety while grubbing to hang on to your double dipping supplemental retirement program.
You were treated with distain at the staff ride? I know you are treated with contempt everywhere you go there are other wildland firefighters now. I would feel sorry for you but I am incapable of it.
Oh…and one more thing. You spent at least a decade as a caricature of a hotshot crew boss. Doing that job was 26.5 year is not something to be respected, it shows what a loser you were, too afraid to move on and leave your comfort zone playing Sensei and life coach to twenty somethings.
You failed to take on more responsibility by simply doing what True Brown and everyone else does. Use the things you learned to benefit the fire program at the higher levels so no-nothings aren’t in charge.
You should have turned that crew over to younger people far sooner than you did. The USFS could have trained 3 hotshot crew bosses during the time you camped on that job because you are the one with a mental disorder. I passed several psychological tests…I bet you couldn’t pass one except you would be afraid to even try it.
They should have made you at least move over, even if you were too afraid to leave your little world you felt you were able to dominate, but even that was an illusion. Your little world dominated you.
Your Feculency and confessed Servant of Satan,
I empathize with you My Friend. I am sorry you chose the path you chose.
You posted: “I have never hidden who and what I am on this blog from day one.”
Yes you have hidden who you are and what you are … until now.
I know this is a cliche that you are very familiar with.
You can sure dish it out but you cannot take it.
Au contraire mon frere,
I have repeatably said that I am not here to make friends or add to my Christmas card list, I have never hid who or what I am or what my agenda here is.
I am here to find out all of the reasons why our crew died on the Yarnell Hill Fire. You know many of those reasons, in fact, I think you know all of them.
I think you have an obligation to tell us what you know. That information does not belong to you alone. As a matter of fact, it belongs to me and everyone else who paid for that fire and its aftermath.
I have an obligation to push, anyway I can, until I get it. If you won’t tell it to me, which you haven’t after 3 years, maybe I can find someone who doesn’t like you and they will tell it to me to spite you.
I don’t care how I get it…just as long as I get it. If I can’t get it by working with you, maybe I can get it by working against you?
Oh…and one more thing. There isn’t any controversy or ugliness in my life except for this blog. I do think I need to take a little break from it.
None of my families members were on the GMIHC, as a matter of fact, I didn’t even have any friends on the crew.
But you did…didn’t you?
Gary,
You posted: “You know many of those reasons, in fact, I think you know all of them.”
I know many of them, certainly not all of them. Only God knows all of them.
You posted: “I think you have an obligation to tell us what you know. That information does not belong to you alone. As a matter of fact, it belongs to me and everyone else who paid for that fire and its aftermath.”
I agree with most of that statement.
You also posted: “I have an obligation to push, anyway I can, until I get it…. I don’t care how I get it…just as long as I get it. If I can’t get it by working with you, maybe I can get it by working against you?”
Like I said, Machiavellian to the core.
I was friends with Jesse Steed. Marsh did not like me because I called him out a several times on his bullshit attitude. We tolerated each other as fellow WFF’s.
Gary,
And one more thing. EVERY time I bring up those “many reasons” you referred to, you guys lay into me and attack me with vengeance.
So…you are saying that being Machiavellian is a bad thing?
Haven’t you figured out by now that NOTHING is my fault?
My crude behavior is a result of being raised as a hotshot on the Mighty Coconino, my arrogance is a result of being placed on a pedestal on the Santa Fe, my bragging is the result of being a deeply insecure person who has always been underestimated by other people (key words, OTHER PEOPLE), and being Machiavellian, blame my FLETC training and the job description of being an special agent for 18 years and doing many things I am not particularly proud of in YOUR name for that.
So you see…the whole Machiavellian thing is actually YOUR fault, not mine, because as you know, we all revert to our training even when faced with everyday tasks and especially in times of stress.
And in the final analysis, that is why the crew died, they were trained to lie down on the ground and die either using, or trying to use those WF Death Shrouds when some or all of them would have lived by RUNNING.
And even though YOU do not want to admit it, that is why at the end of the argument…Jesse Steed led his crew to their deaths, and it was because of the HOTSHOT culture, not his Marine training. And that is why the crew followed him, they believed in him and they trusted him with their lives. And that was because of the hotshot culture as well.
As I keep saying, I think YOU and the way you ran your crew were the anomaly…not me. And that is the underlying problem. Hotshots have a can do gung ho culture to their very core. That is normally a good thing, but if led by someone like King, Czak, or Marsh…it can also be prove deadly.
Now that we have this cleared up, I am going to take a few days off from this blog and rest my fingers.
Please carry on.
Gary,
Yeah, it’s all my fault, all of it.
You b and the others are merely victims. How could I be so myopic and unsympathetic?
That Deputy that we were showing where we found bloody blue jeans along HWY 89 brought another deputy along to the area. We thought this might have had something to do with the missing Mark Danielson. They did find a human bone but it was an ancient thing. He did verify that they knew where the men were at all times. He said the confusion was rampant that Sunday–had some part in why the men died.
Reply to Charlie post on September 28, 2016 at 9:55 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> That Deputy that we were showing where we found
>> bloody blue jeans along HWY 89 brought another
>> deputy along to the area.
>>
>> He did verify that they knew where the men were at
>> all times. He said the confusion was rampant that
>> Sunday–had some part in why the men died.
There is still no reason to doubt DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr’s own official ( signed ) ‘Incident Report’ where he says that when he and the other 2 DPS Officers ( Charles Main and pilot Clifford Brunsting ) were actually ‘in the air’ and searching for GM… Officer Tarr really did RECALL hearing someone from Granite Mountain say ( on the Air-To-Ground channel ) they were (quote) “now heading to a RANCH they had IN SIGHT”.
Eric Tarr’s real-time recollection ( even BEFORE the bodies were found ) of hearing that specific phrase was then the REASON that pilot Clifford Brunsting thought to try ‘flying that line’ from the ‘saddle’ at the top of the box canyon and TOWARDS the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’.
Pilot Clifford Brunsting had flown BOTH of the RECON missions that day… and also said he ‘knew’ where Granite Mountain HAD been working, earlier in the day.
So between that ( knowing for sure where they HAD been ) and Officer Tarr’s recollection of hearing “we are headed to a RANCH we have IN SIGHT”… flying that line from the saddle towards the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ seemed like the right thing to do at that time… with a good chance of ‘finding’ them.
And that is exactly what happened.
They ‘found’ them after deciding to ‘fly that line’ based on what Officer Tarr told Charles Main and Clifford Brunsting he heard on the A2G channel.
But no ‘Air Attack’ or anyone who was responsible for ‘answering calls to AA on A2G’ that day has ever testified hearing that same specific transmission that Officer Eric Tarr was POSITIVE he heard some MANY minutes before the emergency developed.
It’s very possible, then, that since DPS Officer Eric Tarr heard that A2G transmission… that other DPS Officers that were there in Yarnell heard the same thing he did.
It is also possible that even prior to the release of Eric Tarr’s report ( which pissed Darrell Willis off so much he expressed his anger in emails and said he had to ‘step away from all this’ for a week or so )… that ‘story’ of Tarr’s had already ‘made the rounds’ among other DPS / Police officers.
So do you think what YOU heard this ‘Deputy’ say was, somehow, just related to this ‘story’ that would eventually come out about what Officer Tarr heard ( GM reporting exactly what they were doing prior to the emergency )…
…or do you think this “we knew where the men were at all times” statement is implying even MORE knowledge than that amongst… who?
When he ( that officer ) said “WE knew”… who do you think the “WE’ was that he was referring to?
DPS / YCSO Officers only?… or “All of fire command and operations”?
It sounded like to me, since this officer was working the fire that day, that everyone would have known–not only the sheriff people, but everyone else. From 89 and right in the parking lot of Ranch House Cafe where it seems a number of officials were hanging out, one can with the naked eye even see exactly where the two track is for about half mile of it and about the middle of it is where they went down. Those yellow jackets in a group of 18 could be seen for miles and easily from the Ranch House position. So I expect some of the officials were actually watching them on the two track. Now if there were some firemen at the Helms, then they definitely could see the men and know where they were and where they were headed. That pilot was right and another thing those copters were low enough to even yell at those men–seeing them and knowing their position from the air had to be an easy thing–obvious before and sometime into their drop off into the basin from the two track. The only time they could not see them would be when the wind changed radically and then the smoke would have screened their position, yet we are told that no one knew where they were or what they were doing. I don’t believe it after hearing the deputy and looking at the matter that it was known and obvious where they were and where they were headed.
Go to the Ranch House parking lot, you will easily see the position on the two track–put 18 men there in yellow and you will spot them easily. Go to the Helms and look up at a group of 18 yellow jackets and you will see them even with darkest glasses and half blind. Too obvious with all the information and with what you can see that the GMHS crew position and direction was well known by whoever was bossing as did others even on the Sheriff detail as did the pilot report.
To lay all the blame on Marsh, one needs to say they did not know what the hell he was doing or where he was and that he quit talking but was doing his own thing. Somebody wanted those men to do line or protect structures.
Thank you.
Indeed… photographs taken directly from the Ranch House Restaurant show clearly that even just minutes before the first emergency call from Jesse Steed… the smoke column had not ‘laid down’ into the box canyon yet… and there was STILL a ‘clear view’ from the RHR all the way out to the ‘saddle’ at the top of the box canyon.
And even as early as 4:20 PM… SPGS1 Gary Cordes we so SURE that ‘Granite Mountain’ had either already ‘arrived’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch, or were just ‘about’ to, that he specifically instructed TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to send at least 1 Engine to the BSR to ‘make sure they get out there safely’.
There was no ‘blackout’, as Mike Dudley and the SAIT reported.
People in fire command KNEW what was happening.
Yes and one has to believe that there was someone at the Helms Ranch as well. That may have been only Marsh or he may well have met someone there –Something about the presence of the pumpkin. Joy has excellent photos of the retardant drops by Glen Isla along the North side. one is at an angle to the other and more angled in the direction of the Shrine. What she does not have is the time these drops were made. And were they made for the purpose of a back burn or burn out–or were they made later in a desperate attempt to save homes after the wind changed and drove fire reverse from heading away toward Peeples Valley?
Certainly we can and have to be skeptical of any information. But what do you do when certain people of good credentials request their names be withheld and even some of the information they gave until their Senators, et. al., get a proper investigation going on this Yarnell Wild Land Fire. I certainly think all information ought to be out in the open, but if withholding names and evidence to give it time to first be reviewed by Senators and other individuals of high clout will get a review of what the State has put out as what many of us believe is a cover up of the true story that killed the nineteen, then we must wait.
One thing the FS and State have done by muting all their subordinated people is to create plenty of doubt to anything they publish about the fire. I think the many pages redacted, strict and enforced gag orders, restriction of the area so even respected wild land fire death investigators and other well respected members of wild land fire fighting to investigate the area to see what went down first hand, and denying the say and evidence of respected wild land fire fighters including RTS and Provencio undoubtedly only the tip of the iceberg is to bring suspicion upon themselves and their cursory investigation. It is quite apparent to many of us, even concerned tax paying citizens along with wild land and other firefighters, that the FS and State people involved in wild land fire fighting want to keep their reputations and good incomes intact. This tax money is a non regulated cash cow–take all you want to fight these wild fires. With that unlimited source of tax money, it is easy to let lightening strikes stand for plenty of time until they become wild land fires when you know that your cash cow will always be there–unless of course the tax payer starts to wise up and too many people begin to question how 19 men wind up dead–when the damned fire should have been put out on Friday, day 1. It is never a good idea to send depleted overworked wild land firefighters into a situation where the fire was already out of hand. It might look good to send the same guys down toward the Helms to flail at a fire with Pulaskis at a show that they were heroes by attempting to protect structures while Jumbo Jet loads and hundreds of thousands of dollars of retardant could not stop it.
We begin to weigh lives against dollars in the Yarnell incident, and even many of the former wild land fire deaths.
Ideally the Yarnell fire would have been put out immediately when it was an easily contained lightening strike easily reached by three different nearby city fire departments. Even locals, myself included have brains and stamina enough to contain a lightening strike–shovels, grubbing hoes and the like will do that sort of job. But locals would be arrested doing that I am told (they aren’t firemen and like the union thing are not by State rules allowed to save their town or resources unless authorized) and would also be in violation of crossing state land without the necessary hiking permit, a $20 item and a trip to Phoenix if you want it right away.–To get caught without it can be a $500 fine and even up to 6 months of jail time. The State and Feds and Obama have forgotten the constitution and the inherent right to cross public lands–now Obama is even giving the internet to the UN? What a dirk.
But on the topic. Without an honest outside investigation by people interested in how their tax dollars are spent by the public servants the cash cow will continue to be milked as the cash cow continues to milk the public in higer taxes and wild land fire fighters continue to be sent into situations where they had no reason to be in the first place. That was said by one of the loved ones at a breakfast at the waffle house where Joy and I overheard it. He had it right.
Those smiling faces that were accepting rewards for their supposed great job at Yarnell might be downturned if this investigation gets treated properly. The jobs and reputations they so cherish might be questioned as well. The tax payer will be smiling.
Then the right thing on the next lightening strike is to put it out immediately. Then take the ten million plus and put it into better pay for the man on the line, better refined equipment, excellent training, and better qualified bosses to run the show. Another thing make sure areas where men die are not restricted–those public servants that did die deserve the honor from the people they worked for to go there and pay their honor and respect to these men. Who afterall on earth does not respect a fireman that is willing to put his life on the line by being there on the front line doing a job few are capable of or want to do. The strict restriction of land where the men died at Yarnell can only be construed as another cover up tactic and an expensive waste of tax dollars that goes along with the prolonged attack on an easily contained lightening strike.
Good points charlie
Now about the drones and question to be asked here. There were very recent radio type antenna’s set up. basically these were brand new of PVC pipe about six to eight ft tall as I remember and attached to the top were antennas. Were these set up for observatory drones or for other reasons. That one we saw immediately after the fire was NE of Helms about a mile and between the Shrine and Helms. Some of the WLFF would know why they set these up perhaps. The metal part on top of the PVC was in the form of a straight rod maybe a foot or two in length.
I would imagine drones are now a big thing in starting forest fires and not only a tool for burn outs but an idea terrorists, arsonists and various devious individuals will use. Remember the Japs sent up hundreds of balloons with incendiary divices in attempts to start forest fires during WW11. With the FS, they don’t need these devices since they have plenty of so called controlled and now uncontrolled prescribed burns to get things going. The attitude that natural fires should be allowed to burn despite their threats to communities, especially rural ones, seems to be the prevalent attitude. Israel loves the bennies from supplying the retardant for the dumps and plenty of pilots, WLFF’s and others who gain financially from this attitude smile at this attitude. Since the FS is carte blanch with tax payer money when it comes to fighting wild land fires, the money flows like the retardant out of Jumbo Jets. The only ones unhappy in these incidents are those that loose loved ones and the homeowner–as in Yarnell where everything was lost in the few minutes of evacuation warnings although (many, I believe most, with no warnings at all until they smelled the smoke and looked out their windows to see their back yards afire)’ Remember some of the old folks were staggering down the streets until picked up by rescue units while the fires were burning houses.
It will be interesting to get more scientific about these burns and I am certainly curious as to whether the ping pong balls burn hotter than say napalm, drip torches or diesel fuel dropped or fired out of helicopters. What are all the controlled burn, prescribed burn incendiary devices, methods and procedures. Are these methods used during a wild fire say to create burnouts or backburns and were any of these methods other than the drip torches we saw on video in the Shrine area and also in Peeples Valley used in the Yarnell Hill or Tenderfoot fires? Who does these aerial burns and who would order them?
Yes it was very sad for Joy to loose those ducks. This new dog killed them and I once shot a dog that killed 17 of my chickens–I had named that dog Wet Back since I had picked him up in Mexico, gave him a shot of tequila that conked him out so I could bring him in. Poor fella had been left on that Chihuahuan desert for three days I knew of since I had seen him out there on the desert when I had headed down to Chihuahua City and was on my way back after a couple days down there. So you could say Sonny smuggled a dog in, called him Wet Back, then shot him for killing 17 of his egg laying and prized chickens. (That was 1985, some 31 years ago so the dumb ass neighbor that keeps ratting out people here for county infractions, the statute of limitations makes it impossible to have me indicted for whatever cookie cutter snitch idea is in your head.) However, I did regret killing that dog and still do–but at the time with four kids to feed, it seemed the right thing to do. So I understand Joy’s sadness for loss of her prized ducks, so I replaced the ducks with a guinea.
Country people look at animals differently than many city folk. The city folk don’t mind eating steak or drinking milk, but they hate the idea of killing a beef cow or that milk comes out of a cow and not a carton. A rancher catching a dog chasing his cattle will shoot it straight away. Same with a farmer with a skunk in his chicken pen–Skunks love to kill chickens just for the fun of it and like a chicken killing dog, will kill every chicken you have and likely not munch on any and if it does, very little.
Right now Joy is going through a lot=cancer of the thyroid is not an easy thing, and lord, other tumors about her body that are unknown yet as to their status. Cancer is a mean thing, my Dad suffered it for several years before succumbing. It was a slow and painful death. Heart attacks are no fun and I wonder why I can’t find some morphine handy in case I have to go through another one. I was ready to jump out of that copter on the last one and shit those EMT’s have nothing but aspirin–what a joke. But maybe burning is the worse death of all–Christians use to burn other Christians at stake. At four years old I had my right leg burned to the bone and the skin grafts left an ugly scar on all that leg calf. So I do know the pain of these various problems and even being laid out from a mine cave in when working at the Seboyeta Uranium mine owned by Standard Oil of Ohio. I stayed on my back for two weeks before I finally made my wife haul me into the hospital. Displaced back bones bearing on the sciatic nerve is right up there with all–and even heavy doses of alcohol can’t give relief.
There are plenty after effects from the retardant. If you think it is inert, it is not. They use to put cyanide in it before they were made to ban its use in retardant. But if you think you are immune to cyanide then here is what you do. Get your charcoal cooker going and roast that agent orange shit on top. Get some good whiffs of it and if you are really wanting to find out how affects your health, maybe even do it indoors or smoke your meat in your smoke house with it. If you are in your 20-30 range you ought to be ok–look out later in life to see what it does to you. But if you are my age bracket then see how long you go before you have a heart attack, COPD ending of life by suffocation, or if in Joy’s age, with already tumors, see if they don’t turn cancerous or begin to really grow. That ammonia nitrates and sulfates (the major contents of retardant) over charcoal produces cyanide–google Wikipedia on Cyanide if you don’t believe me.
But your retardant companies, a billion dollar industry these days with all these fires and cart blanche FS, FS officials, and others gaining from this shit do not want you to know these facts. How are they going to keep up pretenses and straight faces if the public gets wise. Well these days information is around and the internet is exposing plenty.
That much is known, now for the trade secret hidden chemicals, tell me one good reason we should be kept from knowing what they are when they are in proportions from 8-16%. If the 236,000 gallons was 10% hidden chemicals then we were breathing and our back yards of Yarnell were bathed in 23,600 gallons of hidden chemicals. I got a water report from the local water company to see the various amounts of poisons in the water. I bought a water purifier after. I don’t like any amount of cyanide, arsenic, lead, chlorine, flourine, etc. in my blood stream and especially when they are in combination. Combinations of chemicals can be deadly. All the hub bub has been about the atrocious deaths of the 19–but not all belongs there. Our local count ==now needs an investigation–we quit counting at 110 in the past three years, but a lot of people left so we do not know their status-dead or alive? Only about half the homes did rebuild. But I do know that plenty of people here have suffered and are suffering healthwise since the retardant dumps in 2013 and it is not just due to old age.
It does make me wonder if the FS is behind a drive to rid the country of rural communities–move everyone into the bigger cities and towns. I wonder what their cut off point is –likely around 1000-2000 population. Yarnell had 645 population, but that is now down. The second Tenderfoot fire, the back burn that supposedly saved the town (it did not), yet it did bring in more jumbo jet loads of retardant and burn out the electrical system for some time.
Joy had it right–make the Wild Fire Reader a textbook for students and you will get some truth to the real situation of wild fires as they are. You might even get a bunch of changes in the way men’s lives are risked, and even save a hell of a bunch of citizen lives and for those taxpayers busting ass to keep these people in business. It is odd that the IRS goes after the faulty taxpayer like flies on shit, but when it comes to misuse of taxpayer money it is called pork barrel and looked upon as hero money.
So glad that you gave joy a Guinea. I’m sure you feel badly that her ducks died.
WTKTT,
Yes.
You posted: “NOTE: Brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room”
Hardly the case. How about so you can continue to get the attention you so desperately crave.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 29, 2016 at 11:09 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Yes.
Thank you.
In that case… ( and you knew this was coming )… was anyone you spoke to about it able to actually SAY who any of these ‘mysterious people’ are that we can actually HEAR ( for ourselves ) communicating with ‘Granite Mountain’ DURING the supposed ‘blackout’?
Or did you discover the ‘brick wall’… and get the feeling that some people ( MANY people? ) DO know who some of those people are… but that is the “third rail” and no one wants to be the first one to start ‘identifying’ them?
Just curious ( as always ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You posted: “NOTE: Brought up from down below in a thread
>> that was running out of room”
>>
>> Hardly the case.
>>
>> How about so you can continue to get the attention
>> you so desperately crave.
Two points…
A) The thread in question really WAS ‘running out of room’. When the ‘Reply’ buttons start to ‘disappear’ from nested posts it means that WordPress has reached its limit for ‘nested comments’.
B) None of this has EVER been, is not NOW… nor will it EVER be… about “Me”.
WTKTT,
Email excerpt from a USFS employee whose name, position, and duty location will remain unknown.
“The guidance for our employees on talking about Yarnell hasn’t changed since June 30 of 2013. We are approaching this within the sideboards of ensuring our employees and the US Govt are protected from any potential litigation or other related actions”
The ‘official’ YH Fire SAIT states:
“The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.”
“This report has two parts. Part One includes the fact-based Narrative of the incident and offers the Team’s Analysis, Conclusions, and Recommendations. Part Two, the Discussion section, is meant to prompt discussion and facilitate learning. It explores multiples concepts and perspectives, in order to support the broader community seeking to make sense of the accident and to improve safety and resilience.”
There is also an ‘official’ PowerPoint by Yarnell Hill Fire Human Factors Investigator Brad Mayhew, titled “Yarnell Hill Fire Case Study: A Learning and Discussion Tool for Firefighters.”
It further states:
“The purpose of this case study is to provide discussion and learning exercises for operational firefighters.
“Much is unknown, unclear, or uncertain about this accident. Yet, there are opportunities to learn and improve for the future.
“What you can do: use available information, try to put yourself in the situation, think about your own experiences, and discuss with other firefighters.
“Group dialog will provide some of the best opportunities for insight and learning.
“This slideshow is a tool for facilitating discussion.”
So then, all USFS employees must seek Office of General Counsel approval in order to take part in training and discussion about the Yarnell Fire, that the USFS had previously approved for training and discussion?
**
** BACKBURNS – THE BOOKS
As long was we are revisiting the ‘backburn’ issue(s)…
In all THREE of the BOOKS that have been published…
1. “On The Burning Edge” – By former Hotshot turned-author Kyle Dickman
2. “The Fire Line” – By New York Times correspondent Fernanda Santos
3. “My Lost Brothers” – By Brendan McDonough ( co-author Stephan Talty )
Only ONE of them ( Kyle Dickman’s book ) actually mentions anything at all about the ‘possibility’ of any ‘backburns’ having had anything to do with the death of the GM Hotshots.
But even just that one mention by Kyle Dickman has always been ‘interesting’.
In his EPILOGUE… Kyle Dickman said the following…
—————————————————————-
One City of Prescott firefighter was so confused by what happened that he took an arson-sniffing dog to the fire site. The dog found the remains of a fusee. Some took it as evidence that somebody, perhaps the Helms, had lit an intentional backfire that had trapped the hotshots. But with fifty-mile-an-hour winds funneling into the basin and already extreme fire behavior raging, it’s very unlikely that such a backfire, if one was even set, would have been responsible for the tragic outcome.
—————————————————————-
And in his NOTES section… at the point where he is giving ‘credits’ for the information in his EPILOGUE and at the part that seems to correspond with the text above… Dickman says this…
“Steve Emery told me his story”.
Steve Emery is a former “Prescott National Forest Hotshots” crewman, but his STRUCTURAL career was spent with the Central Yavapai Fire Department… so whether or not he is the “Prescott firefighter” who took the arson-sniffing dog out to Yarnell remains in question.
But there IS this quote from Dickman…
“The ( arson-sniffing ) dog found the remains of a fusee.”
Dickman does not say WHEN this happened… or exactly WHERE ‘the remains of a fusee’ were actually FOUND. He also doesn’t say whether this ‘Prescott firefighter’ also did anything at all with this ‘evidence’ he appears to have found with an ‘arson-sniffing’ dog.
If this ‘search’ took place before any of the investigation reports came out… then it was still not common knowledge that one of the last things Eric Marsh said was that the GM Hotshots were, in fact, “burning out around ourselves in the brush”.
So this ‘fusee’ that was found by the arson-sniffing dog ( according to Dickman ) COULD have been found very near the deployment site itself and would have just been the remnants of one that we know they were using to “burn out around themselves” in their last, desperate moments.
But maybe not.
Maybe it ( the fusee ) WAS found in a location not anywhere near the ‘deployment site’.
That was all Dickman had to say about it… and NONE of the other ‘authors’ even bothered to discuss the issue at all in THEIR ‘books’.
WHO IS 48 Y.O.; STEPHEN M EMERY THAT MADE IT TO DICKMAN’S BOOK YET OUR ACCOUNT IN BOOK IS NOT ACCURATELY TOLD? WAS STEPHEN M EMERY ACCOUNT FACT CHECKED- OURS WAS NOT— Stephen??? can you let us know if what was written is what you said? If you are no longer a part of the firefighting industry but he is probably doing both I imagine…be nice to use his connections to investigators…If you look wwtktt…he is a “lifer” to Prescott so doubt he would assist us here…he was a reserve for cyfd…let me copy/paste his EXACT words publicly:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-emery-imac-ncrc-i-ii-ncip-bht-ncamp-b5b42457
Summary
I have lived in Prescott AZ. my whole life. My professional life began in 1889 when i became a reserve firefighter for the Central Yavapai Fire District. In 1990 i became a wild land fire fighter with the Forest Service with one of the best fire fighting crews in the country, the Prescott Hot Shots, under the best leadership around the southwestern United States. In 1994 i became a full time career firefighter. Since that time at CYFD i have had the privilege of working as a Paramedic, Haz-mat Technician, swift water rescue technician, Wild land firefighter, flight paramedic and of all things,.. videographer and video editor. My latest move in the fire service has taken me into Fire prevention, where i act as inspector for businesses, review new building plans public education and fire and explosion investigation.
I have recently retired from the fire service and I am currently working as a sale person for a local Recreational Vehicle company. Little Dealer Little Prices in Prescott Valley AZ.
Looks like he shifted careers since the YHF; see:
Sales Consultant At Little Dealer Little Prices (since 2015)
Fire Fighter/paramedic At Central Yavapai Fire District
Fire Prevention Inspector At Central Yavapai Fire District (1989-2015)
http://www.pvtrib.com/news/2014/feb/19/questions-abound-in-cyfd-chino-valley-fire-manage/
that is strange so I did my FOIA to CYFD but apparently it has since merged and hmmm wonder how come I have not heard back from them.
do they treat FOIAS different since I had one in UNDER cyfd…hmmm
If you submitted an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request ( specifically ) to ‘Central Yavapai County’… then ‘Central Yavapai County’ itself is REQUIRED ( by LAW ) to ‘respond’ to that ‘Open Records Request’.
The LAW does not allow them to ‘punt’ the request somewhere else.
Even if all you get back is the infamous…
“No records have been found that would be responsive to this request”…
…you are still supposed to get that from THEM… ( on THEIR ‘letterhead’ )… and not from anyone else.
That’s the LAW.
http://www.pvtrib.com/events/2016/sep/17/2016-recovery-day-celebration-on-th/?templates=desktop&et=650
can anyone explain what Recovery Day Celebration means?
got it…I think it explains it better on this link:
http://www.anchoragerecovery.com/About.html
Man I know he has to be a guy who touches lives…look what one guy said “He is an effective mentor and leads by example.”
I really smiled to know there is people helping people like Mr. Emery; spot on! So maybe he can shed light on some areas to YHF…
http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/images/shared/Board%20Meetings/Central%20Yavapai%20Fire%20District%20Board%20Meetings/2014/06-2014%20(June)/2014%20June%2019%20Division%20Report.pdf
one can learn alot in the archived Division Reports—
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on September 28, 2016 at 7:47 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Got it…I think it explains it better on this link:
>> h t t p : //www.anchoragerecovery.com/About.html
>>
>> Man I know he has to be a guy who touches lives…look
>> what one guy said “He is an effective mentor and leads
>> by example.”
>>
>> I really smiled to know there is people helping people
>> like Mr. Emery; spot on! So maybe he can shed light on
>> some areas to YHF…
The “Steve Emery” at the link you provided who is the ‘Cage fighter’ and director of ‘Anchorage Recovery’ DRUG rehab program in Prescott is ( apparently ) NOT the same “Steve Emery” who worked for Central Yavapai Fire District.
Here is another link to the “Steve Emery” ( with photo ) who is the ‘Cage fighter’ and director of ‘Anchorage Recovery’ DRUG rehab program in Prescott…
https://www.facebook.com/steve.emery.790
Now here is a photo of the actual former CYFD firefighter Steve Emery…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Moving on: 5 Central Yavapai firefighters retire
Published: 9:07 PM Wed, Sept. 28th, 2015
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2015/sep/17/moving-on-5-central-yavapai-firefighters-retire/
Retirees pictured…
Gary Cordes, Steve Emery, Dan Ness, Davin Vanatta, Scott Moore
Steve Emery
Fire prevention inspector
Central Yavapai Fire District
December 1989 – April 2015 (25 years 5 months)
different guy alright….
It would not have been near the GMHS since the man with the arson sniffing dog would have mentioned that the fuse was obviously used to back burn behind them. There certainly was a possibility that a backburn would have been started to protect the Helm’s ranch. But also what about the Shrine area backburn. That too had a possibility of trapping the men with those high winds that reversed up that canyon and toward the Helm’s from the Shrine area. But again if the Seseme street area had a backburn going even just beyond the parked GMHS bus, earlier it would have been headed toward Peeples Valley, then reversed, it would have immediately run up the mountain to close off the basin. These FS people have so much gag orders in effect, and the Judge goes along with this crap so that the actual facts of backburns, burn outs, and arson type actions are hidden from the public eye.
Reply to Charlie post on September 28, 2016 at 11:38 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It would not have been near the GMHS since the man with the
>> arson sniffing dog would have mentioned that the fuse was
>> obviously used to back burn behind them.
One would think so… yes… but my point above was that before ANY of the ‘reports’ came out… there really was no ‘common knowledge’ at all that Eric Marsh had EVER actually ‘reported’ to ‘John Burfiend’ that Granite Mountain had, indeed, been “burning out around ourselves”.
Until the reports came out ( and until we heard Eric Marsh’s own words in that original Aaron Bulburd ‘Helmet Cam’ video )… I think a lot of people OUTSIDE the investigation(s) might have suspected that’s what they did that day ( actually light manual ignitions at the deployment site )…
…but my whole point is about the ‘timing’ of the ‘actual knowledge’.
If whoever took that arson-sniffing dog out there was doing that ‘on their own’… and OUTSIDE of the official ‘investigation’ channels… then maybe they really did find the remnants of a ‘fusee’ near the deployment site… but WITHOUT the knowledge that Mike Dudley and the SAIT already had regarding Granite Mountain definitely ‘lighting up’ their deployment area in that desperate attempt to stay alive.
Former Hotshot-turned-author did a lot of this kind of thing in his ‘book’.
He ‘mentions’ things… but then refuses to elaborate on the ‘details’… so he leaves the reader not really knowing WHAT to think or WHAT to make of the ‘information’.
Surely whoever told Kyle Dickman about taking an arson-sniffing dog out there and finding the remains of a ‘fusee’ also told Dickman WHERE he found it.
But then Kyle Dickman himself just ‘leaves that out’ of his actual book.
If it was anywhere near the deployment site… then it’s a pretty safe bet it belonged to the GM Hotshots and was part of their own desperate attempts to enlarge their chose deployment site.
If it was NOT found ‘near enough’ to the deployment site to automatically ‘qualify’ for that ‘burning out around ourselves’ activity… then all bets are off.
The latter would mean that someone who had fusees with them that day ( Eric Marsh? Blue Ridge Hotshots? ) was USING them to light a ‘backfire’ some place OTHER than the ‘deployment’ site.
Again… very, very ODD ( and ultimately NOT helpful ) that author Kyle Dickman would take the time to REPORT this possibly-critical ‘piece of evidence’… but then not supply enough detail to even know WHAT to ‘make of it’.
Well now, who was using–what crew fuses on the Yarnell fire. We know they were being used, but of course that fire sniffing dog will be put to rest if he reveals where the fuses were found.
See above.
It was very, very amateurish ( and ultimately NOT helpful ) for Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman to just ‘present’ this ‘information’… but without enough DETAIL for his readers to make any ‘sense’ out of the information.
Surely whoever told Dickman he took that dog out there and ‘found the remnants of a fusee’ also told Dickman WHERE he found it.
But then Dickman leaves THAT piece of ‘information’ OUT of his book.
There is also every chance in the world that the dog might have found the “remnants of a fusee” that had simply fallen out of someone’s pack.
Proving that this ‘fusee’ had actually been USED might be difficult if it was found in an area that had also been overrun by the fire itself.
Regardless… Dickman doesn’t even say if this ‘person’ was PART of either of the official ‘investigations’… or even if he was NOT… whether he presented this ‘evidence’ TO the ‘official investigators’.
And where are these ‘remnants of a fusee’ now?
Did they end up in a trash can on the Prescott County Courthouse square… like Eric Marsh’s cellphone did?
NOTE to author Kyle Dickman: “Thanks for nuthin'”.
There have been more than a few things that have surprised me over the past three years pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire and the death of our crew, but…if this story ends with the crew being killed by a backfire, especially one set by aerial ignition, I will be more than surprised. I will be dumbfounded.
As far as enjoying setting a backfire…I am guilty, I did enjoy it. There were not very many “fun” or exciting aspects of the job of being a hotshot, but firing out a hand line or from a road, river or rock slide was both, fun and exciting.
Did I get sexually aroused from setting a back fire? I will never tell, but I will tell you this much, I loved the smell of napalm in the morning, and in the afternoon, oh…and at night. The smell…you know that gasoline smell, it smelled like…victory.
I mean C’mon, something called a HELITORCH that is nicknamed the RED DRAGON, that sounds like FUN to me. And all I could do was pop a fussee. What is it like to set a back fire? Here is an excerpt from my book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods.”
“I was a member of an elite unit of wildland firefighters who fought the now legendary Battlement Creek Fire from July 15, 1976, to July 18, 1976. Truthfully though, my assignment has never really ended. The fire pulls me back at random, back to the steep slope of Battlement Mesa.
My friend and fellow crew sawyer, Hardy, is always standing beside me holding a dull red fusee burning with a white-hot flame. I look down and see a fusee in my gloved hand as well, which is also burning fiercely as the molten red phosphorus burning at 1,400° F drips to the ground, igniting small fires at my feet.
Hardy always has the same crooked grin on his face and always says the same thing to me, “We like it; we love it; we want more of it!”
In the distance, I hear the screaming chain saws; the faint drone of the circling slurry bombers; the high pitched roar of the lead plane; the giant bulldozers crashing through the underbrush; the low incessant hum of the powerful pumps on the heavy engines; the deep thumping sounds of the blades from the slicks relentlessly beating the air; the sharp clanging of steel tools striking hard rock, and I hear the loud hiss of the fusees as their flames consume them.
I gaze into the distance with a thousand-yard stare and smell the acrid phosphorous from the burning fusees, the choking wildfire smoke, the pungent dry oak brush and my own stinking sweat caked on with layers of dry chalky dust.
I feel the hot sun, the strong erratic winds, the dry air, my deepest fears rising up, and then I feel the comforting presence of the crew surrounding me.
Finally, I see the arid brown landscape erupt in flames as the terrifying and deadly backfire roars out of the arroyo and races up the steep brush-choked slope of Battlement Mesa to find the Mormon Lake Hotshots lying in the dirt of their fire line.
During the preceding three decades, I have grieved, always alone and usually in the dark. This emotion happens after some spontaneous event, person, or thought triggers memories from the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. I do not cry very often, usually only about once a year, but sometimes more, especially during deadly fire seasons when the reports come in that more wildland firefighters have burned to death.”
Gary, just to clarify, the Red Dragon is the Ping pong ball machine, the helitorch is the “flying drip torch”… 2 different tools…
The Dragon series also has the Green Dragon, which is mounted on a truck or boat and spits the balls, as compared to gravity.. They also have the pyro Launch which uses compressed air and a spring launcher version…
Go to SEI Industries for a list of all of their toys..
Here ya go, Rocksteady…..
http://www.sei-ind.com/products/fire-ignition-products
Looks like the old flare guns are going away and the CO2 powered hand launchers are in: The Pyroshot HS will fire 100m or 320 ft!
When I lobbed fussees, I used to pretend I was throwing grenades into foxholes & enemy machine-gun emplacements…but I digress.
Woodsman
My own preference is to use something where you can intentionally place the fire, not just lobbing flares or fussees or psd balls willy nilly…
Too much potential for the wrong sort of fire to be created by igniting the wrong forest fuels…
They are neat but so is the drone that can pack 13 psd balls and drop them to ignite small fields…
The newest hand launchers remind me of ‘Betty Lou”. In honor of our (or should I say honour) of our friend from the great white nort, here is Betty Lou made famous by the Yoopers (hey, they sound Canadian to me!!!)
Betty Lou is the Turdy Point buck hunter’s firearm of choice:
“a combination AK-57, Uzi, Radar, Laser, triple-barrel, double-scoped, heat-seeking shotgun”
Go to 2:00 in the video for the weapon description. Hope the Yoopers are close enough to your people to count for something, RS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Utt_XgcWv8
Woodsman
Yah…sure…yah betcha!
These ping pong balls split when they hit the ground==what do they look like and what color are they? Are they used more frequently than say fuses or napalm or diesel out of copters?
Well…it all sounds fun to me. Thanks for the clarification.
And now a friggin’ DRONE? OMG!
BURN BABY BURN!
And I don’t want anyone sneaking around in black and putting bird dogs or GPS units on my vehicles…I have been good.
There is a time and place for everything. Including FIRE.
And it sounds like people like Rocksteady should be controlling it. We WERE a little more haphazard about using it. So….
Sounds like the ping pong balls are the hottest? You did not mention what they are made of. Are there any devices that are timed so they have delayed reaction. If so I wonder how long delays would be after dropping.
Plastic…
Colors – The Old Premos MK 3 balls were an opaque white, the newer ones are half white/half pink.
The red dragon/green dragon BALLS ARE USUALLY HALF BLACK/HALF ORANGE but I think there may be other colors out there as different ages of stock.
Premos balls and Dragon eggs are not interchangeable for the machines, they are 2 different sizes.
Thanks Rocksteady–I would guess that they are not 100% fired so that you could find some duds if these things were used in an area? The fuse that the dog sniffer found I would guess looks like any on fuse that a trucker would find?
You can see I never used one of these but if you asked me what prell is, I would tell you it is ammonium nitrate that comes in small circular bb like form that you need a stick or part of a stick of dynamite to get the stuff to go off. It is the same stuff used in retardant, although ammonium sulfate is also used in the retardant. Ammonium nitrate is the fertilizer that was used by McVeigh in the Oklahoma bombing. He set off a truck load of it there. My Dad and I used to buy sacks of it as a cheap replacement for expensive dynamite. He added a gallon of diesel fuel to a hundred pound sack and used half a stick of dynamite in each of his drill holes to set it off It worked well and had a bit softer explosion than dynamite. They say the new fertilizers are treated so they are not usable as explosives but you can be the college educated Arabian Terrorists with chemistry degrees have figured out how to concentrate any nitrate solution. The old cowboy and miner that used this stuff might not be as coy.
Potentially you will find unfired ones.
I have 5% left charge on cell and I see alot of back channelling to me and I will get to it later but for the world me writing about this topic is pure and I would never say it unless there is concrete evidence out there in the world and remember I am not and i repeat i am not the only one who knows…talk later. I never had so many people write me even when I was an ice sculptor…crazy…it is real and it is not what denise roggio asked me in june…”conspiracy theorist” and this is real…not an agenda led my way…i was shown the evidence
https://youtu.be/u1kpobfCgAk
Now that…is what I am talking about. I love the smell of napalm in the morning…and at all other times. Thank you.
Charlie don’t surf.
**
** OPS1 TODD ABEL WAS ( APPARENTLY ) ‘QUALIFIED’ TO DO ‘AERIAL IGNITION’
** WORK AS EARLY AS TWO YEARS BEFORE THE YARNELL TRAGEDY
>> Joy. A. Collura said…
>>
>> on yarnell fire how would I learn if the air attack pilot had ignition experience?
>>
>> can there be a sub-contracted person be aboard but not recorded
>> to do actions in public reports—
>>
>> Where is Dan Sullivan when I need him…
>> has he ever worked and or been exposed to such IGSP
>> capacity in his own background..WHO ELSE????
>> anywhere in Arizona State Forestry is anyone currently
>> or in the past 5 years qualified as such?
Yes.
Apparently… OPS1 Todd Abel was ‘qualified’ to do ‘aerial ignitions’ and he even posted a video of himself on his PUBLIC Facebook page doing exactly that ( PSD aerial ignitions from a helicopter ) almost a full TWO years BEFORE the Yarnell tragedy.
Todd Abel’s PUBLIC Facebook page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/todd.abel.3
And below is a direct link to the PUBLIC VIDEO that he, himself, shot from a ‘helicopter’ he was in in on August 1, 2011 ( 1 year and 11 months BEFORE the 2013 Yarnell tragedy ).
He was directing / performing ‘aerial ignitions’ from the helicopter.
I am going to ASSUME that meant he was actually ‘qualified’ to be doing these ‘aerial ignitions’… but I still haven’t been able to find any actual PROOF that Todd Abel had any kind of ‘ignition specialist’ ratings on his red-card at the time he was actually DOING them, as seen in this video…
https://www.facebook.com/todd.abel.3/videos/vb.100000065243934/257782847567221/?type=2&theater
———————————————————————————-
PUBLIC Facebook Post by: Todd Abel – August 1, 2011 ·
“Todd Abel said: Trying to slow it down with PSD ( aerial ignition ) work”
VIDEO: Shows ‘aerial ignitions’ in progress. Shot from INSIDE the helicopter that Todd Abel was in WHILE they were doing the PSD ( aerial ignition ) work.
PUBLIC Comments…
Chris Ader – August 1, 2011 at 10:06pm
Where are you at
Todd Abel – August 1, 2011 at 10:07pm
Las Conchas New Mexico (2 weeks ago)
Chris Ader – August 1, 2011 at 10:47pm
Very nice
Jacqui Plasha – August 2, 2011 at 4:54pm
Very impressive for an ex-break dancer!
———————————————————————————
HUGE CAVEAT…
I am NOT suggesting, for one moment, that there is any real ‘evidence’ in the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire ‘public’ evidence record which even SUGGESTS that OPS1 Todd Abel ( or anyone else, for that matter ) was actually DOING any kind of ‘aerial ignition’ work on June 30, 2013.
There is no such ‘evidence’ anywhere in the ‘public record’.
Field OPS1 Todd Abel did go up in Helicopter DPS ‘Ranger 58’ TWICE on June 30, 2013 ( once in the morning with Planning OPS2 Paul Musser and then again a few hours later by himself ).. but BOTH of those ‘chopper flights’ were just RECON MISSIONS.
One of Aaron Hulburd’s videos actually captures OPS1 Todd Abel talking ‘back to the ground’ over the Air To Ground channel DURING his SECOND RECON flight… but at NO TIME does he say anything about any ‘aerial ignitions’ or that he might have even been THINKING they might be able to ‘come into play’ that Sunday in Yarnell.
But your question was… was there anyone ‘associated’ with ‘Arizona Forestry’ on June 30, 2013 ( and present in Yarnell ) who WAS ‘qualified’ to do ‘aerial ignitions’.
The answer to THAT specific question is… ( apparently ) YES.
At least ONE person, fer sure.
OPS1 Todd Abel.
And FWIW… here is ‘another’ PUBLIC post that Todd Abel made to his PUBLIC Facebook page showing him doing even MORE ‘aerial ignitions’ on ANOTHER fire he was working in 2014 ( 11 months AFTER Yarnell ).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=790793664266134&set=pb.100000065243934.-2207520000.1475041896.&type=3&theater
———————————————————————————-
PUBLIC Post by: Todd Abel – May 26, 2014 near Flagstaff, AZ ·
“Todd Abel said: Did some PSD (aerial ignitions) work today.”
PHOTO: PSD ignitions as seen from the Helicopter Todd Abel was flying in.
———————————————————————————–
Again… I can still find no PROOF that Todd Abel really has EVER had any actual ‘ignition specialist’ qualifications on his ‘red-card’…. either back in 2011 when he was doing PSD aerial ignitions ( in the video above ) or even 3 years later in 2014 as shown in the video above.
But, apparently, even in 2011, OPS1 Todd Able himself obviously THOUGHT he was ‘qualified’… because he WAS doing ‘PSD aerial ignitions’ as early as 2011… and someone was, in fact, LETTING him do them on ‘active fires’.
Coordinating & executing an aerial ignition is part of the Division/Group Supervisor taskbook.Therefore any qualified DIVS and higher in the Operations side is supposed to be qualified to do it. (unless their quals are fraudulent) Any number of personnel at Yarnell could have aerial ignition experience and training.
Woodsman
I am going to be direct and ask him now…if he did or not
Pretty safe to say his answer will be “No”.
Besides… the only ‘Helicopter’ that Field OPS1 Todd Abel ( or Planning OPS2 Paul Musser ) were ever in that day was Department of Public Safety ( DPS ) Police Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’. That’s the ‘blue and white’ helicopter that you, yourself, photographed in the air on one of the 2 RECON missions.
If you are going to do ‘aerial ignitions’ from a Helicopter… you just don’t fill your pockets with these napalm-like ping-pong balls and climb aboard and throw them out the window. It takes a lot of ‘preparation’ to outfit a helicopter to be ready for ‘aerial ignitions’. ( Loading the right ‘dispensing’ equipment, etc. ).
The yellow and white BLM Helicopter N14HX ( which you ALSO saw and photographed that day while it was extracting the DOC Lewis Crew and some equipment from the ‘anchor point’ that morning ) was actually THERE in Yarnell for the rest of the day… but after Helicopter N14HX had finished extracting the DOC Lewis Crew and some equipment it simply ‘staged’ at the ‘Helispot’ up in Peeples Valley for the rest of the day.
That N14HX ‘Crew Haul’ helicopter was, in fact, totally available to ‘extract’ the Granite Mountain Crew later that afternoon, exactly the same way it had extracted the DOC Lewis Crew from that SAME LOCATION ( the anchor point ) that morning… but no one ever lifted a finger to even TRY and use that available ‘Crew Haul’ helicopter to assist Granite Mountain in any way.
The N14HX Helicopter only left Yarnell in the late afternoon when it received instructions to return to its ‘base’ down near Wickenburg just ahead of the thunderstoms actually arriving in Yarnell.
Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ ( 5KA – the red and white one ) was rigged for ‘bucket drops’ all day and all it was ever doing was dropping water on ‘hotspots’ up there on the NORTH side of the fire in the Model Creek and Sickles Road area(s).
The SKYCRANE Helicopter seems to have stuck to working the SOUTH end of the fire all day… but unlike Chopper 5KA… there is no evidence that it was ever communicating with ‘Air Attack’ on the ‘Air To Air’ channel. That SKYCRANE seemed to have just been “doing its own thing” pretty much all day.
But there is still no evidence the SKYCRANE was ever doing anything but dropping water ( and almost crashing into a VLAT ) that day.
And see Woodsman’s post above.
Apparently… ANYONE with Division/Group Supervisor red-card qualifications is supposedly ‘qualified’ to plan/conduct/supervise ‘aerial ignition’ operations.
If I have all of my equipment ready, I can be operationally firing ping pong balls out of a helicopter in probably less than 20 minutes..
Reply to rocksteady post on September 28, 2016 at 12:15 pm
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> If I have all of my equipment ready, I can be
>> operationally firing ping pong balls out of a helicopter
>> in probably less than 20 minutes..
But I believe it’s still safe to say that no one in Yarnell asking a Police Helicopter to take them on a RECON would suddenly show up with ‘equipment’ and also say…
“Yeah… we’re gonna ask you to fly certain lines over the fire as well and we’re gonna open the doors and start shooting napalm-filled ping-pong balls out of the helicopter. Is that okay?”
What would those Police officers have said?
“Ya, sure… you betcha?”
I really, really, doubt it.
I also really, really, really doubt there were any ‘aerial ignitions’ taking place in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
While we all know the ‘public evidence record’ is FAR from ‘complete’… this “Greatest BLUNDER in the History of Wildland Firefighting” is already one of the most STUDIED Wildland tragedies in history ( and will continue to be closely studied for a long, long, long time ).
So even with all the ‘public evidence’ and ‘testimony’ that IS available… you would think there would be something, somewhere that would even just ‘hint’ at ‘aerial ignitions’ having been taking place that day… IF there were any going on.
There is NOTHING.
If it turns out there WERE ( aerial ignitions )… then along with the Yarnell Tragedy itself being the “Greatest BLUNDER in the History of Wildland Firefighting”… the ensuing ‘investigations’ ( BOTH of then, SAIT and ADOSH ) will also qualify as the “Worst Investigations in History”.
The SAIT might have had every reason to do some kind of MASSIVE coverup of the ‘aerial ignitions’… but ADOSH did not. Quite the opposite.
Yet even ADOSH was unable to find anything to even remotely indicated that any ‘aerial ignitions’ had ever been either ordered or executed on June 30, 2013 ( or at any other time leading up to the 19 fatalities in that Arizona Forestry workplace ).
I was not implying that they used the Police Helicopter to do ignitions.
I was simply responding to your comment that it takes a really long time to get it all set up and operational.
I agree with you, I do not see any inclination that Aerial Ignition was undertaken.
Ground ignition??? Not finalizing an answer on that one, yet..
WTKTT,
You posted: “… no one ever lifted a finger to even TRY and use that available ‘Crew Haul’ helicopter to assist Granite Mountain in any way.”
There was NO point to have “lifted a finger to even TRY and use that available ‘Crew Haul’ helicopter to assist Granite Mountain in any way.”
The GMHS was perfectly safe in ‘the black,’ so there was NO need to “assist [them] in any way.”
What were they going to do? What kind of assistance could they have rendered?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
September 28, 2016 at 1:43 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The GMHS was perfectly safe in ‘the black,’
Until they weren’t.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> so there was NO need to “assist [them] in any way.”
>> What were they going to do?
>> What kind of assistance could they have rendered?
Well… those are STILL just TWO of the ’19 million dollar questions’, aren’t they?
Obviously Eric Marsh THOUGHT they were doing SOMETHING by even trying to convince Jesse Steed to bring those men down to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
My point above is that whatever it actually WAS that was ‘motivating’ Eric Marsh ( and then, alternately, Jesse Steed )… if it had been any kind of ‘officially known’ ( and requested/sanctioned ) ‘assignment’… then that N14HX ‘Crew Carrier’ Helicopter WAS totally ‘available’ to ‘assist’ with moving that Hotshot Crew back to town ( or wherever someone might have thought they were needed ).
The fact that there was never ( apparently ) even any ‘consideration’ of utilizing N14HX for some kind of ‘dust off’ for the Granite Mountain Crew remains just what one more piece of ‘evidence’ that whatever decisions were being made were ‘under the radar’ and NOT being officially ‘sanctioned’ ( or discussed ) by fire ‘management’.
Do I still think there were people other than Eric Marsh ‘involved’ in the decision to take Granite Mountain OUT of the ‘safe black’ and ‘get them to town”?
Yes.
The Yarnell-Gamble video alone PROVES that someone WAS actually ‘expecting’ them to ‘get to town’ and was even ( supposedly ) asking Eric Marsh to get them to HURRY UP.
But whatever was going down… ‘Crew Carrier’ Helicopter N14HX was never involved… when it easily COULD have been if someone thought ( Eric Marsh AND others ) it was so all-fired IMPORTANT to get those Hotshots off that ridge and ‘back to town’.
BTW: We still have no idea who the PILOT of BLM Helicopter N14HX was. He was even the one flying the thing on Saturday, and agreed to ‘hover’ directly over the ACTIVE fire to deliver ‘bladder bags’… and that was the exact moment the fire suddenly ‘flared up’ and ‘jumped the east-flank two-track’ late Saturday afternoon.
And the pilot of N14HX was ( as far as we know ) never even interviewed by ANYONE.
You posted: “Do I still think there were people other than Eric Marsh ‘involved’ in the decision to take Granite Mountain OUT of the ‘safe black’ and ‘get them to town”?
Yes.”
Okay, maybe so. So what?
Having their respective supervisory responsibilities. each had a choice, just as many of us had similar choices in similar situations on many other wildfires.
Choices?
Give whomever suggested they come ‘back to town’ an option like staying safe ‘in the black’ or else renounce their supervisory responsibilities and leave their safe haven and venture into the unburned at the worst possible time.
They chose instead to leave and go to their deaths.
You posted: “… whatever it actually WAS that was ‘motivating’ Eric Marsh ( and then, alternately, Jesse Steed )… ”
I would suggest possibly, dominance with Marsh and likely a Marine ‘following orders’ for Steed.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
September 28, 2016 at 3:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted: “Do I still think there were people
>> other than Eric Marsh ‘involved’ in the decision
>> to take Granite Mountain OUT of the ‘safe black’
>> and ‘get them to town”?
>>
>> Yes.”
>>
>> Okay, maybe so. So what?
Amazing.
Speaking of ping-pong balls…
Once again… out of ONE side of your mouth you try to say you are ‘interested in the TUTH’ about what REALLY happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…
…and then out of the other side of your mouth comes a continual stream of verification that you don’t give one flying FUCK what REALLY happened that day.
YOU are the one who has ‘made up his mind’ what happened… and that nothing else matters.
It’s just about ONE thing, as far as you are concerned… and if you could swing the hammer that drives the nails through Eric Marsh’s palms yourself… you would do it.
Forget the fact that there was at least ONE ‘Payson trained Hotshot’ on that crew… who was ( supposedly ) trained using “YOUR methods/philosophies”… but he still walked straight into that box canyon right along with everybody else.
You are an ‘apologist’ for ‘management’… and you continue to do nothing but REFUSE to look at “the larger picture”.
And it’s because you are still “on the payroll” and you are still just pursuing your OWN AGENDA.
So please don’t ever ask me again while I don’t completely trust you… or why I don’t believe you whenever you try to say you are interested in the real TRUTH about what REALLY happened in Yarnell.
Typo up above…
I typed ‘while’ in a place I meant to type ‘why’.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
So please don’t ever ask me again WHY I don’t completely trust you… or WHY I don’t believe you whenever you try to say you are interested in the real TRUTH about what REALLY happened in Yarnell.
You posted: “You are an ‘apologist’ for ‘management’… and you continue to do nothing but REFUSE to look at “the larger picture”.”
I am definitely NOT an ‘apologist’ for ‘management.’
I certainly am looking at the larger picture, always have.
“And it’s because you are still “on the payroll” and you are still just pursuing your OWN AGENDA.”
I am NOT ‘on the payroll.’ My OWN AGENDA is the truth.
“So please don’t ever ask me again why I don’t completely trust you… or why I don’t believe you whenever you try to say you are interested in the real TRUTH about what REALLY happened in Yarnell.”
I have NEVER asked you WHY you don’t completely trust me… or why you don’t believe me whenever I try to say I am interested in the real TRUTH about what REALLY happened in Yarnell.”
Don’t ever ask you AGAIN? I never even asked you once that I recall.
Just because I do not agree with your focus and view on the ‘larger picture’ that YOU envision, means nothing in the larger scheme of things.
In other words, I am not taking that Trip to Abilene just because everyone else seems to be.
It’s all about tolerance, right? And it is okay to disagree, right?
I have to tolerate you, so you have to tolerate me. You disagree with me at times and I disagree with you at times. So what.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
September 28, 2016 at 4:20 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I have NEVER asked you WHY
>> you don’t completely trust me…
>> or why you don’t believe me…
Just 95 hours ago…
————————————–
On September 24, 2016 at 5:43 pm
Robert the Second ( RTS ) said ( to WTKTT )…
WHY would I make something like that up?
You’re basically insinuating that I am a liar, and I certainly do not appreciate that.
—————————————
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I am not taking that Trip to Abilene just
>> because everyone else seems to be.
Which ‘Trip to Abilene’ might you be referring to now?
Are you calling even the POSSIBILITY that there were others involved in what happened to Granite Mountain a ‘Trip to Abilene’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I have to tolerate you, so you have
>> to tolerate me. You disagree with
>> me at times and I disagree with
>> you at times. So what.
This isn’t about ‘tolerance’ at all.
It’s about query / response.
You never need to ask me again ( like you recently DID ) why I don’t fully trust you or believe you.
I am ( once again ) supplying you with the ‘answer’ to that question.
You have an AGENDA… and part of that AGENDA is to never fully admit that you even have it.
WTKTT,
For as smart as you are, I am really surprised that you just don’t get it.
Your Logical Fallacy gymnastics amazes me.
Your original post was: “So please don’t ever ask me again WHY I don’t completely trust you… or WHY I don’t believe you …”
To which I posted: “WHY would I make something like that up? You’re basically insinuating that I am a liar, and I certainly do not appreciate that.”
Then you reposted the above as if that was an answer to the question: “WHY would I make something like that up? You’re basically insinuating that I am a liar, and I certainly do not appreciate that.”
This in NO way addresses the issue of you basically implying that I was a liar.
You also posted: “Are you calling even the POSSIBILITY that there were others involved in what happened to Granite Mountain a ‘Trip to Abilene’?”
Nope. I admit the “POSSIBILITY that there were others involved in what happened to Granite Mountain.” The Trip to Abilene refers to the influence of others controlling their actions.
Once again, both Marsh and Steed had their respective supervisory responsibilities. and each had a choice, just as many of us had similar choices in similar situations on many other wildfires.
And what were those choices?
Their first choice and ultimate responsibility, especially Steed’s, was for the Safety and Welfare of those they supervised.
They could have and should have given whomever suggested they come ‘back to town’ an option like staying safe ‘in the black’ or else renounce their supervisory responsibilities and leave their safe haven and venture into the unburned at the worst possible time.
They both chose instead to renounce their supervisory responsibilities and leave ‘the black’ and go to their deaths.
I suggest possibly, dominance with Marsh and wanting to ‘lord it over’ Steed.
And very likely a Marine ‘following orders’ for Steed AND using ‘Mitigating’ and ‘Hinting’ speech instead of being direct. Deference to authority was ruling there.
And it is both. It’s about query and response and about tolerance. You seem to have a very difficult time with me disagreeing with you.
You also posted: “You never need to ask me again ( like you recently DID ) why I don’t fully trust you or believe you.”
I did NOT and NEVER have asked YOU to fully BELIEVE me or TRUST me.
Your ‘answer to the question’ is a non sequitor in my view. In other words, it does not follow.
Yes, I admitted to having ‘an AGENDA,’ seeking the TRUTH remember? Which I fully admitted I had.
Your agenda seems to be harping on me.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Nope. I admit the “POSSIBILITY that
>> there were others involved in what
>> happened to Granite Mountain.” The
>> Trip to Abilene refers to the influence
>> of others controlling their actions.
Well… the classic use of the term “Trip to Abilene” is ALL ABOUT “the influence of others controlling other’s decision making and actions”.
The term itself came from that story first told by Jerry B. Harvey about that family in Coleman, Texas. They all ‘drove to Abilene’ in 104 degree temperatures and, on returning, exhausted, they all discovered that NO ONE had really wanted to go in the first place… but “Group Think” took over… so they went, anyway.
So you DO admit to the POSSIBILITY that others ( who are still alive ) might have been ‘involved’ in what happened to ‘Granite Mountain’… but you also REFUSE to consider that those people then bear any ‘responsibility’ for what happened.
That would be like returning to the original “Trip to Abilene” story itself and saying only the driver of the car ( The father-in-law ) was the one actually responsible for taking everyone to the cafeteria in Abilene.
EVERYONE was ‘involved’ in the ‘actions’ that ( eventually ) took place ( going to Abilene ).
That’s the ‘essence’ of the ‘parable’ itself.
But YOU do not WANT to ‘include’ any ‘responsibilities’ other than the ones ‘Marsh’ and ‘Steed’ had in YOUR ‘version of events’.
Not ‘above’ (management) or ‘below’ (crew).
Not even Scott Norris… the man ( supposedly ) trained by the Hotshot program YOU ran for 26 years.
As if Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were the ONLY ones who were ‘renouncing responsibilities’ that day.
That’s what you are selling.
But my cash and credit cards are all firmly in my wallet and I’m not ‘buying’ what you are ‘selling’.
Not yet, anyway.
More needs to be known before I could ever hold the myopic view that you cling to.
WTKTT,
You posted: “So you DO admit to the POSSIBILITY that others ( who are still alive ) might have been ‘involved’ in what happened to ‘Granite Mountain’… ”
I always have.
“… but you also REFUSE to consider that those people then bear any ‘responsibility’ for what happened.”
I always have.
These were grown men that had free rein to make choices, responsible for their own actions. Nobody held guns to their heads or held their families hostage or any of your other wild ass theories.
RTS – Just for the record…I disagree with you AGAIN.
WTKTT said, “Forget the fact that there was at least ONE ‘Payson trained Hotshot’ on that crew… who was ( supposedly ) trained using “YOUR methods/philosophies”… but he still walked straight into that box canyon right along with everybody else.”
And I say, “Amen.”
Gary,
Let’s pack the bags, we’re going on a guilt trip.
And ‘just for the record’ AGAIN, I say that the insidious power of GMHS Groupthink was overwhelmingly controlling that day and adversely influenced not only Scott Norris, but many others to defy logic and training and instead do what they did.
And there is plenty of research to back that up, except you and others here would rather rely on your opinions to warrant your conclusions and deductions.
What role could Willis have had in persuading Marsh to order GMHS to leave the black?
Well Joy has asked Todd directly did he do any air incendiary work during the Yarnell fire. If he answers no we will have a definitive reply. If he doesn’t answer, we will assume he takes the 5th.
This is an excerpt from an article in the Wildland Firefighter (online) magazine titled: “Windward” by Jennifer DeShon | From the September 2016 Issue of FireRescue.
“I should have known. I was the one who had grabbed the map trying to figure out exactly where it was going to hit. But so many things were happening it didn’t register that we were standing at the point of impact-in the exact spot I had pinpointed on the map. I knew the fire front was going to hit us hard, but I also knew that the house we were protecting could shelter us for a long time if we got in too deep, an advantage we wouldn’t find in many places on this mountain. But, the full picture, the overhead view that I should have been seeing in my head, pinpointing our location at the top of the that steep draw, in the very worst place we could possibly be during a wind-driven wildfire, never coalesced in my mind-not until that first blast of hot air hit me in the face.”
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>>
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“So, this really wasn’t our first rodeo. And this wasn’t unfamiliar terrain, either. This new fire was burning in one of the neighborhoods we have used for training hikes. But somehow, in the process of trying to save lives, things had happened too fast for our brains to keep up.”
I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. … BUT, THE FULL PICTURE, THE OVERHEAD VIEW THAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN SEEING IN MY HEAD, PINPOINTING OUR LOCATION AT THE TOP OF THAT STEEP DRAW, IN THE VERY WORST PLACE WE COULD POSSIBLY BE DURING A WIND-DRIVEN WILDFIRE, NEVER COALESCED IN MY MIND-NOT UNTIL THAT FIRST BLAST OF HOT AIR HIT ME IN THE FACE.
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BUT SOMEHOW, IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO SAVE LIVES, THINGS HAD HAPPENED TOO FAST FOR OUT BRAINS TO KEEP UP.
This fuels and topography excerpt was interesting because it has been a finding on several Southern California wildland fire burnovers, fire shelter deployments, and fatalities:
“DRAWS ONLY A FEW INCHES DEEP CAN CHANGE THE COURSE OF A FIRE FRONT ENTIRELY, DRAWS THAT MAY BE COMPLETELY HIDDEN BY CHAPARRAL AND DUFF UNTIL AFTER THE FIRE FRONT PASSES.”
Wildland Firefighter (online) magazine titled: “Windward” by Jennifer DeShon | From the September 2016 Issue of FireRescue.
http://www.wildlandfirefighter.com/2016/09/27/windward/?cmpid=enl_FFN_UltWildland_2016-09-27
This lady was different to the GMHS Marsh and Steed because they both knew it was wrong dropping off and a hell of a risk to get down to protect and perhaps backfire the Helms. They knew because they argued about going down. They did think they could outrun the fire and get there before it got to them. Maybe the adrenaline rush of trying to beat a fire had mesmerized them like the setting of fires does many.
I suppose because as a kid we lived in tents and cooked on a campfire so I smelled like smoke when I went to classes, that I remember well enough how smoke burns your eyes, how I was burned to the bone as a child because a fire chief put a gallon glass jug of gasoline on my Dad’s wood stove, that my only real thrill in a fire is to keep warm or to cook off. I prefer a wood stove to any other type heat and have hauled plenty of wood to cookie cutter types that burn it in fireplaces for “atmosphere”. And I get that since fire has that mesmerizing effect. It indeed is a dangerous friend.
I was corrected in an email – I have a 3500 lb winch on my ATV and a 4500 lb winch on my UTV
But I ask you, what is one zero more or less…here or there, is is really that important? Do things like that really matter in the big scheme of things at the end of the day with all things being equal…especially among friends?
And as Donald Trump says – Who knows? Who knows?
I guess it depends whether you stuck a little bit…or a lot? In other words, it is like most things in life…it is situational. There is no right or wrong answer except…it depends.
I had rearranged my schedule to head out Saturday to see Bob Power’s niece for her health was failing…we know around noon the angels wrapped her in their wings and she is at peace and with the Good Lord…she fought the good fight and never stopped her beliefs in Jesus and her angels and I am so pleased to here her parents with her today. Sorry for Bob Powers loss today of Caylee…
our thoughts and prayers to you—
hear not here..oops
Sincere condolences to the entire ‘Powers’ family.
I’m sorry for your loss. Mr. Powers.
I am so sorry for your loss Bob… Even though I have never met you, I send my sincere condolences.
If you need anything please email
REPLY BELOW;
Charlie says
SEPTEMBER 27, 2016 AT 2:07 AM
Welcome to good old free America–Joy was speaking of a man in Wickenburg whose home and living were taken away by that county.
THAT MAN CHARLIE IS REFERRING TO IS 52 Y.O. WAYNE TILLOTSON WHO’S HOMETOWN IS SEATTLE WASHINGTON WHO CAME TO WICKENBURG TO DO “ONE STOP PET SHOP AZ” ALL YOUR PET NEEDS ON 7 S JEFFERSON (FACEBOOK ID ONESTOPPETSHOPAZ (I THINK COUNTY PROBABLY GOT HIM ON THESE AREAS SONNY: h t t p :/ /w ww . bornfreeusa.o r g/b4a1_petshoplaws_state.php?s=az AND EMAIL IS [email protected] AND NUMBER IS 928-232-7218 BUT WHAT SONNY DOES NOT GET A LADY IN HER 70’S IN SPIRIT NAMED DARLENE OR DALENE STATED TO ME THIS KID (WAYNE) NEEDS TO REASSESS HIS LIFE AND LIFESTYLE AND STOP BEING SO DARN CONNECTED TO THE THINGS IN THAT SHOP FOR IT HAS AFFECTED HIS HEALTH AND I FOR ONE AGREE WITH HER AND HE NEEDS TO ACCEPT THE RADICAL CHANGES FOR THE BLESSINGS TO BE SHOWN…WHEN OUR INTENTIONS ARE NOT PURE OR POSITIVE IN LIFE WE DO GET “LIFE CHECKS”…HE NEEDS TO COMPREHEND THE WORLD IS NOT AGAINST HIM…I MEAN I KNOW HE LIKES TO HAVE A PET SHOP LIKE HE DID BUT TO ME THE COOKIE CUTTERVILLE WOMAN I FELT THE SHOP WAS NOT UP TO COUNTY CODES AND HE WAS NOT AN OWNER JUST A LEASE SO I CAN SEE LANDLORD”S POINT OF INTEREST IN THIS TOO. THERE IS ALWAYS OTHER SIDES TO A LIFE STORY- “ESPECIALLY ON THE YHF”
It is all over the country now–I had gotten some guinees, chickens and a pet Iguana from this guy’s pet shop before. AND HIS GUINEA AND CHICKEN AND IGUANA ALREADY WENT THROUGH THE GI TRACT OF LOCAL YARNELL COYOTE—I AM AN AVOIDABLE GAL AND SONNY IS FREE RANGE AND I THINK YOU CAN HAVE BOTH WORLDS TO PROTECT ONE’S ENVIRONMENT IF THE ANIMAL IS A PET NOT JUST AN ANIMAL ON A PIECE OF PROPERTY- SO THERE IS AVENUES THAT CAN BE AVOIDED OR REDIRECTED IS ALL—
The county did not like the way he did business and complaints from people that his shop did not meet their standards now has him on the street. IF SONNY BELIEVES THE VERY AQUARIUMS WE EMPTIED LAST NIGHT WERE UP TO COUNTY CODE THAN I GOT LOADS OF GOLD TO GIVE YOU ALL…I GET WAYNE AND I GET NATALIE; THEY HAVE THEIR WAY OF DOING BUT I DO BELIEVE BOTH OVERWHELM THEIR LIVES WITH INVENTORY IN ALMOST A HOARDER BEHAVIOR AND THAT SONNY IS NOT HEALTHY MINDED IF HE AGREES THAT WHAT WE SAW COULD BE DONE IN 12 HOURS BY ONE PERSON…THERE WAS JUST TOO MUCH …We were helping load his stuff and now he is looking for a place to live–YES HE IS AND THE OFFER WAS EXTENDED AS A 90 DAY MAX FOR WAYNE TO SONNY’S PLACE BUT WITH MY HEALTH AND SONNY’S I TOLD SONNY I WOULD HAVE TO REMAIN IN CONGRESS IF WAYNE TOOK HIM UP ON IT BECAUSE I DO NOT NEED ANY ADDED HELPING OTHERS RIGHT NOW- MY LIST IS FULL ALREADY…I offered to allow him to temporarily stay on my property but it is too out of the way for him. THAT IS A GOOD THING IN A WAY FOR ME BECAUSE AS MUCH AS I EXTENDED TO SHARE IT WAS MEANT FOR HIM TO STORE HIS LOAD AT SONNY’S NOT SO MUCH LIVE THERE BUT VERY VERY TEMP. UNTIL HE CAN “SLEEP/REST” AND MAKE APPROPRIATE HEALTHY NEW STARTS—NEW BEGINNINGS…SINCE HE IS HOMELESS OFFICIALLY WITH NO PLACE…But his situation is not as bad as Natalie, 82 year old down the street. She has a constant yard sale in front because a recent heart attack has kept her from any ability as a widow to do anything and poverty has knocked on her door –hospitals are not cheap OK. FOR PARCEL 203-14-039 SONNY EVERYTHING IS CURRENT AND THE TAXES ARE UP TO DATE AND YES RECENTLY DEVELOPMENT SERVICES DID PUT A LIEN ON PARCEL AND LET ME COPY AND PASTE SOME UPDATES FOR YOU SONNY SO YOU GO BY FACTS GIVEN NOT MY HEARSAY ASSESSMENT OKAY: Karen Vick Customer Service Supervisor Yavapai County Assessor’s Office ON Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:21 AM SAID “Joy,We will do what we can on our end. Any liens you may look-up through the Recorder’s website.” AND KAREN SENT IT TO Mike Spitz Cottonwood Office Manager Yavapai County Assessor’s Office Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:17 AM I think your office might be able to help with part of this. AND Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:44 AM I GOT THIS: Hello Joy, There is not tax lien on Natalie’s property. Her property taxes have been paid through 2015. The 2016 tax notices were just mailed and the total due is $661.92. Taxes can be paid by a friend or relative.However, if you would like to pay the taxes as a lien holder; to be repaid when Natalie can pay the taxes back, the taxes have to be 2 years past due before they go to a tax lien auction. You would then have to participate in the auction and bid on the tax lien. I can provide you more information if you have an interest in doing this.The orange sticker on the door was put there by the Yavapai County Development Services department, who has placed a lien on the property for a past due assessment. It looks like you have spoken to Mariah Quinn in Development Services. I’m not sure if there is any help you can provide there. I have been told you would need to talk to Mariah and she is out of the office today.If you have any further questions, please let me know.Sincerely,Shelly Clark I DID LEAVE A MESSAGE WITH MARIAH AS WELL AS CALLED LAURA SO THE FAMILY IS IN THE LOOP OF THE UPDATES SONNY AND I WILL BE PRESENT TO ENSURE HER HEARING IN PRESCOTT IS FAIR- SO I HOPE THAT CLARIFIES IT FOR YOU SONNY AND YES IN 1991 WARREN AND NATALIE DID BENEFIT THE YARNELL FIRE DEPT WITH PROPERTY AS A GIFT AND YES THAT SHOWS IN RECORDS BUT NO THE YHRG NOR ANYONE AT FIRE DEPT GETS THE COMMUNITY QUITE LIKE I DO AND NOR TAKES THE TIME TO HELP THOSE IN TRUE NEEDS…AND AGAIN I GET NATALIE AND I GET COUNTY CODES AND ORDINANCES YET I SAW AND SPOKE TO THE FAMILY MEMBER AND YES TO CONFIRM…THERE IS A 1998 PAPER THAT STATES OWED $35,000 AND ONE ON 2000 FOR $10,000 AND THE FAMILY MEMBER WANTED TO KNOW IF THAT WAS EVER PAID OR ADDRESSED WAS ALL BUT I WILL MAKE SURE THE COUNTY DOES NOT SCREW HER UP DURING HEARING AND THEY KNOW I KNOW…AND THEY KNOW I AM “FOR THE PEOPLE” TO ENSURE FAIRNESS IS REACHED.
—==shit an ambulance bill across town from VA hospital parking lot where I fell down to the Hospital across town of Prescott was $4800 dollars. MINE WAS MORE FROM YARNELL TO WICKENBURG SONNY. PROBABLY THE EKG THEY DID—Well you can estimate what a 40 mile trip by ambulance would cost and I would guess at least five times that. Well this lady had in 91 donated property to the Yarnell fire department. TRUE. Her fine from the county for having that flea market stuff in the front yard is 30 grand. IT WAS IN 98′ $35,000 AND IN 2000 $10,000 BUT NO FURTHER YET CLARIFICATION IF IT WAS SIMPLY JUST THE YARD SALE ITEMS ALWAYS KEPT ON PATIO OR WHAT BUT SHE IS THE NEIGHBOR TO THE FIRE CHIEF BEN PALM…Talk about a rip off fine. TRUE. Likely the new fire department does not know the good deeds this lady had done for them since it was so long ago. TRUE, But you don’t see the county giving leniency for an elderly disabled person WE WILL SEE IN OCTOBER- OK…nor the good church members lining up to help a poor widow. VERY TRUE. Maybe she is not a member of the churches SHE IS A MEMBER OF THE LIHTHOUSE SONNY here that handled all the millions forgot the widow and the requirement for a good Christian to look out for some one like that.NO SHE IS NOT WITH PAUL AT THE PRESBYTERIAN They passed her buy-her bad record in life–went past a stop sigh once right down the street–and a sign that an idiot put up where a yield ought to be.WELL YOU HAVE TO GIVE NATALIE CREDIT ON THE STOP SIGN. SHE ON RECORD IS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL HOMESTEADERS TO YARNELL AND THERE WAS JUST DIRT ROADS AND NO SIGNS SO THEY PUT A STOP SIGN NEAR HER HOME AND SHE GOT CAUGHT NOT STOPPING BUT ANYONE WHO LIVES IN GLEN ILAH IS GUILTY OF THAT AT SOME POINT IN TIME; IT IS MOUNTAINAIRE AND FOOTHILLS STOP SIGN… You can see clear down the street that comes into Mountainaire and I have yet to meet a car coming from that way, and if I do I will Yield. YOU MEAN STOP RIGHT….We did offer to help but she did not want to move anything–she is angry that she even got a fine now.OH NO- NOT TRUE…SHE IS NOT ANGRY- SHE IS A GOD-LOVING WOMAN AND IS FROM THE OLD DAYS BUT NAH NOT ANGRY BUT SHE ALSO IS NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO SOME COUNTY FOLKS AND WILL LIVE THE WAY SHE DOES—Good old American justice, but it is everywhere. When you have people on your block here going around and writing down every little infraction against county rules you have the snitch mentality of a communist country. YES YOU DO HAVE THAT IN YOUR SUBDIVISION AND YES IT IS IN MINE TOO AND PROBABLY ALL AROUND…Sadly the county people are part of a system that has no heart and could give a shit less about someone in such dire straits. I MADE THEM AWARE TODAY SONNY SO WE WILL NOTE AND SEE BUT SO FAR “SOUNDS” LIKE THEY GIVE A SHIT…SO HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT DUE…But this is the new mind and mentality–get while the getting is good and fuck your neighbor if you can. Well it is not all that negative–there are many in this town that do go out of their way to help their neighbor–EXACTLY TRUE—and you don’t have to be a Christian to have good sense and lend a hand to those in need where you can.WHAT DOES CHRISTIANITY HAVE TO DO WITH THAT????
Now again, reading the book and also talking to Dr. Ted Putnam–he is handy and wise about fires. YET DR TED PUTNAM IS SMART TOO AND RE-DIRECTS YOU AND GUIDES YOU WHERE HE IS NOT ABLE TO EXPERTISE TALK ON…HE IS A GOOD FELLA…Both the book and he says there are ping pong balls that set fires DID HE SAY THAT OR ROCKSTEADY…I WAS NOT HEARING THAT…and men out of helicopters that go along string out fire to get things going fast for these burns, burn outs, and whatever else you want to call these thing where massive burning is a part of the fire fighting game. I DO NOT THINK TED WAS IN THAT TALK—IF HE WAS WOULD HAVE TO CLARIFY THAT SONNY BUT DON’T SOUND LIKE IT…And Gary labels it right when he says that is what these firemen do–burn baby burn. Ted says he has seen those, especially Vietnam guys string fire out of helicopters with glee. Maybe there is something to be said for the pyromania we are told about. The FS attitude that why the hell would you live in a town like Yarnell when there is manzanita thick as Sheriff Arapio’s Phoenix Tent Camps.FUNNY—YOU ARE FUNNY— It is a good question why the hell live in Arizona ? WHY NOT….SEEMS ITS TRINKLED ALL OVER SONNY…NOT JUST HERE…
REPLY BELOW;
Charlie says
SEPTEMBER 27, 2016 AT 2:07 AM
But then the attitudes are just about the same in any state–California takes the lead and the others soon follow. People according to the new think ought to be in a cubicle, all wear green or olive drab and live in olive drab housing–cookie cutterville like the Weaver Estates where Joy and Hubby have their abode and have to meet HOA approval for every move they make and so close to a neighbor you hear him fart. OH GEEZ SONNY—Personally I am glad people do that and enjoy that way,IF YOU HISTORICALLY LOOK HOW ARIZONA BUILT IN THE VALLEYS; SUBDIVISIONS STARTED LOOOONG AGO SONNY…NOTHING NEW…WHEN I WAS A KID IF YOU LIVED IN A COOKIE CUTTER AND YOUR DAD PUT HIS 8 HOURS IN AT HONEYWELL THAN YOU WERE GOOD AND ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAD AN ABOVE GROUND POOL IN THE 60-70’S BEFORE UNDERGROUND POOLS TOOK OVER… but I like a little elbow room and privacy A LITTLE? YOU ARE THE 10-100 ACRES TYPE OF GUY…and say fuck the HOA thing. YOU COULD NEVER…ACTUALLY YOU COULD NEVER EVEN DO NURSING HOMES AND YOU HAVE PROVEN YOU CANNOT DO HOSPICE AS YOU LEFT AND SIGNED YOURSELF OUT AND HAD YOUR KID COME FROM NM BECAUSE I WOULD NOT TAKE CATHETER OUT FOR YOU…But then I was honorably discharged from that sort of life–and had a perfect record there because I wanted to do my part in protecting the freedoms I would have as an American citizen when I got out. That was necessary in the military–but now I do wonder what the Viet Nam war really was==protecting America or was it protecting big interests and nothing but a political play that cost thousands of young lives. Debatable for sure.SONNY OWNED/PAID CASH FOR AND LIVED ON A GOLF COURSE WITH LAWYERS AND DOCTORS AND HE ALSO HAS A PHD SO HE AINT NO DUMMY AND HE HAD THE PERFECT LITTLE LIFE AND FAMILY AND KIDS…BUT EVEN IN THAT SONNY IS SONNY SO IMAGINE BEING HIS NEIGHBOR AND SEEING HIM SHOOT UP A PRISTINE DELOREAN CAR HE OWNED…SO FOR THAT SONNY IN MY HUMBLE OPINION IS NOT COOKIE CUTTER AT ALL NOR CAN YOU CONFORM HIM…
The more you look into the fire fighting business, the more it smells and the more you see the smoke screen of what is really going on. WELL WE ALSO HAVE HAD ALOT MORE FIREFIGHTERS THAT WERE ON THE FIRE COME TO US AND SHARE THEIR WEEKEND SO THAT HELPS THE HIKERS KNOW THERE IS MORE TO BE TOLD….The public is being played for their tax dollars VERY TRUE—in too many cases and the fellow out there busting ass doing the dirty work is being treated poorly–VERY VERY TRUE-even sacrificed for sake of the fire gods in such instances as the Yarnell incident. Their reputations mean more than lives, and we damn sure see the cover ups to do that. Shame has nothing to do with the game–and if you talk to some of them they can make you think they are angels from heaven and spew out words of honor and praise to their fellow fire gods as if Jesus himself were walking beside them. No one wants his shit investigated, and how in the hell can such a potent force with such strict mum rules be exposed? Gagged until you puke it out. NO, IT IS ALREADY OUT SONNY—WE HAVE NOT BEEN HANGING MUCH TOGETHER LATELY BUT IT IS ALREADY IN RIGHT HANDS AND OUT SO JUST A MATTER OF TIME…
That Irish Delorean car I shot by accident. I saw lights on in my house grabbed my pistol since there was supposed to be no one there, I suspected and accidentally fired through the door with a hair trigger .45 long colt. A .45 hole cost $900 to fix on that car. But those were nice cars, I should have kept it. Although it had a french Peugeot 6 cylinder engine, still I could cruise across Texas into the wind at 90mph. I am not sure I liked the gull wing doors though and it was hard to see out the side windows with a full view of things.
Again, over 40 years ago and I owned the car outright. Nowadays you would be considered a criminal for shooting your car even if you owned it.
rocksteady says
SEPTEMBER 27, 2016 AT 10:01 AM
The “ping pong ball machine” you talk about is the PSD… aka the Red Dragon or Primos MK 3 usually.NEAT TO LEARN; THANK YOU. I WILL LET LOCALS KNOW TOPIC IS FINALLY BEEN TALKED ABOUT HERE TO CONFIRM WHAT OTHERS SAW—THANK YOU.
It is a machine that takes “ping pong ” type balls with potassium permanganate inside them an injects them with Ethylene Glycol (antifreeze). The ball then drops to the ground. ANY NOISES MADE FROM THEM DROPPING?
An exothermic reaction occurs where the ball then bursts into flame after about 20 to 40 seconds after injection and then will burn for approximately 2 minutes. This technique creates many many spot fires which as they grow will join together burning the whole area. The PSD is used where you have a very receptive fuel bed (lots of dry fine fuels, such as the Manzanita/chaparral type. You would not be able to get anything to burn if you tried this in a Cedar/Hemlock type stand..MUCH LIKE THE TERRAIN THAT WAS OUT BY MONICA MINE TO OLD GRADER AREA TO HARPER CANYON FOR YOU LOCALS TO COMPREHEND THE TERRAIN TALK-
The helitorch is a 45 gallon drum of gellied gasoline, which is suspended under a helicopter and is operated by the pilot (or specialist) depending on policy (IN BC we do not fly with the torch machine, other provinces they do). The helitorch is useful where you want really significant fire and heat in order to build convection and to pull the fire into what you are igniting. It is commonly used for igniting harvesting blocksDEFINE USE OF THE WORD BLOCKS— with significant slash loading where it would be too slow going for people to try to ignite with hand drip torches (and a hell of a lot safer).. It is also used when you want to do some severe fire impact (such as burn an area of standing timber to look like the face of the moon, without having to send a crew in to mop up or extinguish. Very effective at building large scale burnt black fuel breaks.
Doing any ignitions is very efficient, burning off forest fuels rather than trying to put them out YET IS THERE ANY RESTRICTIONS OR GUIDELINES IN THESE IGNITIONS IN RECREATIONAL/SCENIC OR RESIDENTIAL AREAS—I CAN SEE BACK COUNTRY BEING DONE THAT WAY BUT HOW IS FORECOUNTRY TREATED???, but having said that, adding more fire to a fire does come with inherent risks that require a significant amount of training, knowledge and experience..THANK YOU…MOST IMPORTANT THING SAID LOCALS FROM ROCKSTEADY IS TRAINING/KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE…
As far as your question if there was an IGSP on either of these fires, the IGSP may be a dedicated position or a double duty role. For example, when I go out on an IMT I usually go as an FBAN/IGSP. OKAY SO IS IT POSSIBLE TO GAIN A REQUEST/FOIA TO ASK IF ANY AERIAL OR ICT HAD SUCH DOUBLE DUTY ROLE THAT DAY NOT YET DISCUSSED? OR IN ANY REPORTS?
As far as Ft MacMurray, I did not get to work there as an IGSP (I did on the fire North of Ft Mac back in 2011, as IGSP) but am friends with the guy who did. I WILL BACK CHANNEL THOSE QUESTIONS TO YOUR FRIEND SOON…
Their main ambition was to burn off large areas, drawing them back into the fire itself, thus consuming the forest fuels prior to the arrival of the flaming front. It was also used to increase visibility for fire fighting aircraft….. Hot air rises, and takes the smoke with it, so you light up significant areas, get them really hot and the smoke will no longer be “laid over”, but hopefully going straight up, allowing air tankers and bucket ship helicopters access into primary targets for aerial suppression efforts.
In missions like Ft Mac it is a very stressful, intense roll of the dice, when nothing else seems to be working as a plan B or C or D or E….I WILL BACK CHANNEL ON THIS TOPIC
rocksteady says
SEPTEMBER 27, 2016 AT 10:02 AM
Joy and Sonny.. You also have my email if you want to contact me there with specifics..SOON I WILL…
JOHN DOUGHERTY- ARE YOU WATCHING?…WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS TOPIC…LEAVE IT ALONE OR FURTHER GO DEEPER ON IT…I NOTICED WHEN I DID— THE NUMBERS DROP ON COMING HERE…WHAT DOES IT SHOW FOR YOU…IS IT A TOPIC TO JUST BACK CHANNEL ONLY????
OH HERE IS LINK I SAID I WOULD POST LOCALS:
http://www.stephenpyne.com/
The “ping pong ball machine” you talk about is the PSD… aka the Red Dragon or Primos MK 3 usually.NEAT TO LEARN; THANK YOU. I WILL LET LOCALS KNOW TOPIC IS FINALLY BEEN TALKED ABOUT HERE TO CONFIRM WHAT OTHERS SAW—THANK YOU.
ANY NOISES MADE FROM THEM DROPPING? dropping no, when igniting some hissing and popping… but not loud.
lDEFINE USE OF THE WORD BLOCKS— harvested units, cut blocks, clearcuts whatever you wish to call them..
YET IS THERE ANY RESTRICTIONS OR GUIDELINES IN THESE IGNITIONS IN RECREATIONAL/SCENIC OR RESIDENTIAL AREAS—I CAN SEE BACK COUNTRY BEING DONE THAT WAY BUT HOW IS FORECOUNTRY TREATED???,not within my organization, we do ignitions where it is necessary, efficient and most of all safe.
As far as Ft MacMurray, I did not get to work there as an IGSP (I did on the fire North of Ft Mac back in 2011, as IGSP) but am friends with the guy who did. I WILL BACK CHANNEL THOSE QUESTIONS TO YOUR FRIEND SOON…I do not know if he will be able to speak of that as there are potential class action suits ongoing..
In missions like Ft Mac it is a very stressful, intense roll of the dice, when nothing else seems to be working as a plan B or C or D or E….I WILL BACK CHANNEL ON THIS TOPIC as above..
That is interesting information Rocksteady about aerial firing of back fires and burn outs. How long would it take to say make a burn out you talked about in burning out areas say you would fly in a circle with your copter about a mile around? Could that be done in five or ten minutes?
Another question, do they aerial burn in circles or do they follow irregular patterns, or do they follow grid pattterns? That must be exciting work to fellows that love to burn.
That is interesting information Rocksteady about aerial firing of back fires and burn outs. How long would it take to say make a burn out you talked about in burning out areas say you would fly in a circle with your copter about a mile around? Could that be done in five or ten minutes?—–USING THE PSD MACHINE, THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDS SPEEDS OF AROUND 50 MPH AT THE MOST. HOWEVER TIME IS DEPENDANT ON HOW MUCH FUEL IS ON THE GROUND, HOW CONTINIOUS IT IS, AND HOW RECEPTIVE IT IS TO IGNITION. FROM THE INDICES I WOULD SAY THE FUELS WERE RECEPTIVE. WHEN WE DO PRESCRIBED BURNING, WE USUALLY BASE OUR BURN OPERATIONS, USING THE PSD, AT 100 HAS PER HOUR (SO ABOUT 220 ACRES PER HOUR) BUT YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT IS IN THE SPRING AND FALL FOR LOW INTENSITY BURNS, NOT MIDDLE OF A HEAT WAVE IN ARIZONA IN JUNE..
Another question, do they aerial burn in circles or do they follow irregular patterns, or do they follow grid pattterns? That must be exciting work to fellows that love to burn. IT DEPENDS.. IF YOU HAD A PEFRECTLY FLAT SQUARE GRASS FIELD AND WANTED TO KEEP THE FIRE INSIDE IT (NO WIND) YOU WOULD IGNITE IN THE VERY MIDDLE FIRST WITH BIGEER CONCENTRIC CIRCLES AS YOU GO. THAT WOULD CREATE CONVECTION AND INDRAFTING ON ALL SIDES. THEN TO BUTTON IT UP, YOU LIGHT OFF THE PERIMITER (USUALLY DONE BY HAND).
EVERY IGNITION PATTERN IS DIFFERENT, BASED ON SLOPE, WIND SPEED AND DIRECTION, OBJECTIVES, TERRAIN, FUEL TYPE ETC.. NO EASY ANSWER TO THAT ONE CHARLIE. IF ITS PERFECTLY FLAT WITH NO WIND PREETTY EASY, ADD THE FACTORS I MENTION ABOVE, NOT SO EASY…
Big G reminds me in the 70’s when the kid had all the baseball cards and would tease and please but really when it came down to it did not want to trade…
and if I had the best marble collection but the end of the day Big g would probably own every marble of mine some way and some how…
so let me wake up more…but let me explain the concepts as the day unfolds if I can get away from my best pal “Juniper” my toilet…maybe hanging out with her my mind is just there; in the toilet but maybe Stephen Pyne’s descriptions…let me post the links…maybe the article can help guide people to the bigger package…maybe people will catch it when they read it…maybe the people who ran the show tried too late in the day to do an action that well should of not of happened…especially the timing…it is very obvious after seeing the evidence we did that someone made some grave errors…
http://cdn.sportsmemorabilia.com/sports-product-image/1-t6187064-400.jpg
trade gary?
so gary if you did not “catch it”…just want to make sure the team you are on is the same one RTS and wwtktt and others are on here…
we want the tidbits to fall into place but all tidbits…or just certain ones?
I have given alot of clues even if they are in circle formula…someone is laughing about now on this post alone…shit, i tried…oh well…time to wash up and head out…I start to get very comfortable with this homebody life thing yet we got stuff to keep doing…it took helping the homeless for me to settle in that what Sonny and I are doing on each others’ paths is not yet done…
Joy,
I believe I’m reading your clues loud and clear. Unfortunately it looks like my educated guess a long time ago is going to be correct. A firing operation ended up trapping GM in the bowl. It’s a hell of an easy mistake to make on a seriously mis-managed fire with several different entities trying to run the show in a panicked fashion. Many things went wrong in many ways to get there for sure. The ass end of the dog didn’t know or realize what the front end was doing etc. Damn! I wish I was wrong but it answers so many questions I’ve had for years.
Woodsman
Woodsman
Woodsman. It gets better than your assumptions…you want to take a road trip…let’s go towards Montana…give me 3 days and you will know what I know…goes for gary too…road trip
Woodsman,
You posted: “A firing operation ended up trapping GM in the bowl.”
And from where and what information did you draw this conclusion?
Before you answer Woodsman…since rts went on behalf of gary olson maybe rts can shed some light on the staff ride and being out there and knowing the folks he does maybe he can explain harper canyon area to you on that weekend and maybe he can explain the stationing of where the vehicles were parked and how bufords friend shared the point a to b on the exact time and movement of those vehicles. Also can rts begin to explain the dozer on a lowboy and one not and why it was where it was and can rts share to woodsman of the firefighters I just met this week and their accounts from sesame to shrine area and how they thought i should know some details not yet public. Can you explain the pumpkin placed in exact spot it was placed and i cannot touch the most crucial details even though my ducks were murdered this week in real life…the crucial parts are in process and out to the ones to make a difference but i would say woodsman let rts share or help you comprehend how your mind was led there besides you got your intel and well there ia much more than how you summed it up…
Joy and Woodfellow,
You (Joy) posted: “… since rts went on behalf of gary olson maybe rts can shed some light on the staff ride and being out there and knowing the folks he does maybe he can explain harper canyon area to you on that weekend.”
I do my best to answer your questions, however, there will be a lot of redundancy.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I don’t recall anyone on the Staff Ride talking about this.
“… and maybe he can explain the stationing of where the vehicles were parked”
We parked the vehicles at the BSR, and anything other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about here. I don’t recall anyone on the Staff Ride talking about this.
“… and how bufords friend shared the point a to b on the exact time and movement of those vehicles.”
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I don’t recall anyone on the Staff Ride talking about this.
“Also can rts begin to explain the dozer on a lowboy”
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I don’t recall anyone on the Staff Ride talking about this.
“… and one not and why it was where it was”
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I don’t recall anyone on the Staff Ride talking about this.
“… and can rts share to woodsman of the firefighters I just met this week and their accounts from sesame to shrine area”
Obviously, I have no idea what you are talking about here. Since I was not with you when you met the FF’s, how am I to know what their accounts were. Only you know that. I know ‘The Women’s Rules’ apply here, but I still cannot read minds.
“… and how they thought i should know some details not yet public.”
See answer just above.
“Can you explain the pumpkin placed in exact spot it was placed”
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I don’t recall anyone on the Staff Ride talking about this.
“… let rts share or help you comprehend how your mind was led there besides you got your intel and well there ia much more than how you summed it up…”
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Woodman does not need my help, and I certainly cannot comprehend how his mind was led there and how he summed it up. What a scary thought.
Hopefully, I answered your questions and either saved him form or created aggravation for the Woodworker..
The pumpkin was at the Helms ranch, so that is highly unusual to have a pumpkin on private property? And if the pumpkin was there does that not mean that fire men were hanging around the Helm;s in close proximity, say 3/4 mile and in plain sight from the Helm’s?
Joy,
Absolutely. My puzzle is framed. All I have left is some interior pieces to fit. Thank you, Cheerleader.
RTS:
You have the floor.
Woodsman
So you see rts…the staff ride is an injustice to anyone who goes because not only was I the eyewitness but too many are back channeling to reach me to tell their stories and I will admit some stories I have heard I have been very in their face on why the back channel and why not just be pure and share it….did any of you know one of the dispatchers on yhf died this Summer and he died with crucial details and so who am I to respect the widow he left behind or do I keep holding on…what about ALL THE FOIAS AND INTERVIEWS I got and did and if my journey to ends than who carries on ensuring more comes forward so the kids of these fallen know I am deeply sorry people like rts opts to waste his time saying no the staff ride did not talk about that…i have that foia and i have interviews and i even have personal emails i know us not for my eyes and yes the staff ride takes you on a hike but noone but the hikers and I cant even tell you Donut really gets the terrain like I do there and knows his exact moves but I can even talk about other people I saw but never mentioned or came to the plate and said yes I was there and this js my story…be careful if you do because in my FOIAS I seen very good loyal long time in system be ousted by the very folks I seen in media and on google in prior times calling ’em friend…so i maybe have this ceappy cell will has typos and bs and much rambles but until the staff ride talks about wasson…s and p and baluco and whitehead and colombis and do on and on than the staff ride is narrating and not saying it like it was…and screw the folks who say they were not heroes because these men did not bank overtime like others in the industry did…they just wanted to ljve and that was taken from them and I will keep gathering and when I see a foia where I MUST turn it into commercial I will but this man that showed us what truly happened that is when I said more than ever I will be there foe the kids who are without their dad and are trying to be happy and a kid best they can but they will know…you want to ask yhf…I wont tell the kid that was not mentioned on the staff ride…I will in turn say if you place a foia in you can know what I know and I will guide that kid grown into adult and say who has been the purest from day one to present on not just the yhf and I will point out to the kid who redacted…narrated…picked and choose their answers versus saying it like it is…and the bottom line so many locals depended on Gary to be at staff ride and Gary was generous to give his spot to a IM contributor who represnts safety and I know Britt was there and others who in fact should of been there were people that was there…and so how did I get ousted because I took alot of pics that showed alot of what it was like to be a hotshot on 6.30.13 in that heat and that terrain and that squirrely weather day and thank you sir for coming all the way two us to show us how pure we have been and that no matter what we have areas that back us up with unedited raw footage. Rts says what he can I get that yet that staff ride travels ended up disappointing locals who are teying to grasp it all in like why is any of it stationed in certain spots so I should be on a staff ride when they walj througj harper canyon and knowing what i know i ask them the real questions. …
I do know the day of the tragedy, the first news coverage I saw on TV it stated that the crew was entrapped by a burn off operation. BUT, that may or may not have been true. Could have just been a reporter making stuff up, as I do not believe any official press release had even occurred at that time..
I don’t know about TV… but just 72 hours after the “Greatest BLUNDER in Wildland Firefighting History” took place on June 30, 2013… even the “Los Angeles Times” was mentioning ‘backburns’… but was getting the story TOTALLY wrong.
On July 4, 2013… even the LA Times went with an article that was trying to ‘explain’ what happened… but they were getting it all wrong.
That LA Times article was trying to say that the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed WHILE they were desperately trying to ‘build fireline’ to protect Glen Ilah… and that they WERE using ‘chain saws and backburns</b.' to do it.
The Los Angeles Times
Article Title: Storm cell spelled doom for Arizona firefighters
The 19 were working to save homes when enveloped by swirling smoke and flames.
Published: July 04, 2013
By: Cindy Carcamo, John M. Glionna and Louis Sahagun
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/04/nation/la-na-yarnell-firefighters-20130705
From that article…
———————————————————-
PRESCOTT, Ariz. — The 19 firefighters killed this week in a rapidly advancing wildfire were battling to save a small housing subdivision and suddenly were encircled by a dense cloud of smoke and flame, according to officials familiar with the investigation.
“The only thing standing between those folks and those homes were these 19 guys up on that ridge,” said Jeff Knotek, who retired as a captain with the Prescott Fire Department on Sunday and now serves as a liaison to the family of one of the dead firefighters.
“Unfortunately, the conditions they were in were not survivable,” said Knotek, a 27-year veteran of the department who has participated in official briefings on the fire.
The account, confirmed by the Fire Department’s official spokesman, provided the first detailed explanation of what happened outside the town of Yarnell on Sunday as the 19 firefighters, members of the Prescott-based Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew, were overrun by flames rushing through the nearby manzanita and chaparral.
The Granite Mountain crew was on a ridge above the subdivision, attempting to build a line of defense between the fire and the homes of the estimated 125 residents of the area.
Some of the men were armed with chain saws and axes, tearing down brush as quickly as they could.
Others used gelled gasoline in drip torches to create a back burn.
———————————————————-
So the article makes it sound like Granite Mountain was killed WHILE they were ACTIVELY ‘saws down’ and ‘torches out’ trying to build a ‘line of defense’ for Glen Ilah… AND using ‘backburns’ to do it.
Total horseshit… but they were TRUSTING the information they were getting at the 72-hour point coming from this RETIRED Prescott Fire Captain Jeff Knotek.
Yes… Granite Mountain HAD been using ‘chainsaws and drip torches and backburns’ to work on the ‘anchor area’ that MORNING… but the article makes it sound like that’s what they were still doing when they were killed.
Not a chance.
Obviously Knotek, himself, still had no idea ( just 72 hours after the tragedy ) what REALLY happened… but the whole “They died as HEROES fighting the big-bad-fire face-to-face” narrative was already taking birth and he was just “helping” to PUSH that DESIRED “narrative” already.
He even told the LA Times…
“The only thing standing between those folks and those homes were these 19 guys up on that ridge,”
Again… total horseshit… but the LA Times bought Knotek’s bullshit hook-line-and-sinker and ‘went to press’ with what HE ( alone ) was telling them.
Some people still actually BELIEVE the bullshit that Knotek spread is what actually happened… and we might even end up discovering that now in-the-can major motion picture depicts Granite Mountain’s final moments more along the same lines as Knotek’s original bullshit… versus what REALLY happened.
WTKTT,
I agree with everything you just said, but, being the natural curious one that I am, I wonder if either a 20+ year officer on the fire department got it wrong that we use “gelled gasoline” in our drip torches (because we most certainly DO NOT- how the fuck would it DRIP out of a drip torch?) OR was the media’s interpretation of what he said wrong? The reason why my “curious George” instinct kicked in is because of the particular choice of words with ‘gelled.’ There is an association with this term in the ground ignition world, ie: ground fuel ignition systems use a product in gel form. One example is the Terra Torch by GelFireSystems. Hmmm?
I will say, in my opinion & experience, the closer you get to the actual incident, more times than not the better information you get which is an underutilized investigative technique. It really works. The best time to get the best most accurate info is ‘when the smoke is still in the air” & people haven’t had time “to get their story straight.”
Quite the mystery…where did this reference to “gelled” gasoline come from?
Woodsman
Here is the website for TerraTorch:
http://www.gelfiresystems.com/applications/
Clients & Affiliates of this company (which essentially makes fancy flame-throwers similar to what was used in both world wars, that can be mounted on different vehicles including bulldozers) include BLM & USFS.
Hmmm…
Woodsman
A Helitorch also used ‘gelled gasoline/fuel.’
http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/aerial_ign/helitorc/describe.htm
Woodsman,
You posted: “The best time to get the best most accurate info is ‘when the smoke is still in the air” & people haven’t had time “to get their story straight.””
Great point. I totally agree.
And, of course, before the Public DISinformation Officers get in their with their ‘Talking Points.’
Oh, we’re not trying to hide anything. We just want to manage the information.”
This one may get Big G just a little too excited but I’ll post it anyway. Helitorch with ‘gelled gasoline.’ Crank it up!!!
https://youtu.be/u1kpobfCgAk
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
September 28, 2016 at 3:26 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I agree with everything you just said, but, being
>> the natural curious one that I am, I wonder if
>> either a 20+ year officer on the fire department
>> got it wrong that we use “gelled gasoline” in
>> our drip torches (because we most certainly
>> DO NOT- how the fuck would it DRIP
>> out of a drip torch?)
There is no evidence this ‘Jeff Knotek’ guy who was out talking to the media was ever anything but a Prescott STUCTURAL firefighter.
He might not have known a drip-torch from an MRE, much less the ‘mixture’ it does or doesn’t ‘use’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> OR was the media’s interpretation of
>> what he said wrong?
Possible. Either way… I agree with YOU.
The use of the ‘gel’ phrase is ‘interesting’… considering this was just 72 hours after the fatalities. Where WAS that ‘coming from’?
But speaking of “before the smoke has even cleared”…
Here is an article that appeared featuring this ‘Jeff Knotek’ guy literally LESS than ’24 hours’ after the tragedy in Yarnell.
Knotek literally ‘retired’ from the Prescott Fire Department just HOURS before the GM Hotshots burned to death down in Yarnell.
He had literally just ‘cleaned out his locker’ at PFD when the news of the tragedy arrived in Prescott.
What THIS ‘article’ seems to prove is that this ‘Jeff Knotek’ guy literally had ‘no clue’ what happened until AFTER he had a chance to talk with some ‘friends’ ( Darrell Willis? ).
The following ‘interview’ with Knotek would tend to indicate that whatever bullshit he ended up slinging to the Los Angeles Times had been ‘imparted’ to him ( by others ) sometime between the 24-hour mark and the interview he did with the Los Angeles Times.
Notice that even though it was LESS than 24-hours after the tragedy… this interview with Knotek literally BEGINS with ‘flag waving’… and also immediately starts with the usual ‘Hotshots are the special forces of firefighting’ crap in the same sentence where he says they ‘protect homes’.
The Crookston Times
Article Title: Arizona fire tragedy: Crookston native Knotek loses friends, colleagues
He retires after 28-year career with Prescott Fire Department, hours before 19 firefighters perish.
Posted: Monday, Jul 1, 2013 at 2:27 PM
http://www.crookstontimes.com/article/20130701/News/130709966
—————————————————-
When you’re getting ready to fly your American flag on and around the Fourth of July holiday this week, Jeff Knotek has a request.
“When they’re putting that flag out up there in Crookston for the Fourth,” he said, pausing for a moment to keep his composure. “Just ask them to remember those guys.”
The “guys” the Crookston Central High School 1978 alum is referring to are the 19 members of the “hot shot” fire crew at the Prescott, Arizona Fire Department who lost their lives Sunday while battling a wildfire that was likely triggered by lightning a few days ago and fanned by monsoon-strength winds. Only one member of the hotshot crew survived.
Knotek wasn’t on the hotshot crew, but he knew every one of the victims well, and knew their families, too. “We’d just had a big open house and barbecue to kind of kick off the season with the structural crews and the wild land crews,” he told the Times via phone Monday. “Once the fire season gets started, you’ll have guys go off for four months all over the place fighting fires.”
After 28 years as a captain, paramedic and firefighter with the Prescott Fire Department, Knotek cleaned out his locker Sunday morning for the last time, as he was hanging up his firefighting gear for good in favor of a job as an registered nurse/paramedic at the Prescott Hospital.
“I’d gotten off my last 24-hour shift, it was a good shift and my oldest son had ridden along with me and seen some interesting stuff,” Knotek recalled. “I left and did the normal things, running some errands and stuff, and then my friends started calling me in the afternoon. I figured they were wrong on the numbers. I didn’t think something like that could have happened. I was kind of in a daze, I guess.”
The “hotshot” crews get called out for the “really bad stuff,” Knotek said. The Prescott crew had recently returned from fighting a wildfire in New Mexico, and now they were trying to protect homes in the small town of Yarnell, Arizona. “These guys are very dialed in, very experienced, and they’ve been on a ton of fires,” Knotek said. “I’d equate it to special forces, they’re kind of the special forces of firefighters.”
Knotek doesn’t know for sure, but he figures some monsoon-level gusts ignited a fire below where the 20 hotshot firefighters were battling the blaze above them. “I figure it came up the slope and got them,” he said. “I’m just speculating on that, though.”
So he returned to the Prescott Fire Department emergency operations center in order to help in any way he could. Mostly, it meant calling family members of the victims and driving around with police officers to notify family. “These are guys I’ve worked with, I worked with their dads, even their grandfathers,” he said. “The first guy I saw, his grandson had passed away. Another guy who I’ve hunted with several times, his son passed away. It’s pretty devastating, obviously, but you try to keep moving ahead and doing what you gotta do, and in this case it’s doing whatever you can to help these people.”
Wife, other son up here
Jeff and his wife, East Grand Forks native Staci (Berg) Knotek, have a lake home on Union Lake, and she and their youngest son are on their way there now to spend the holiday week.
Jeff was to begin his new job at the Prescott Hospital Monday, but those plans are on hold for a bit. “There are a lot of memorials to help set up and schedule,” he said. “And the fire’s still blazing out there. It’s so busy here because it’s such a tourist area and it’s Fourth of July week, too. I’m not officially on duty, but I want to help in any way they’ll let me.”
Jeff said he’s “still a big part of Crookston” and tries to get back to this area and the lake at least a couple times a year.
“I never, ever thought I’d still be down here 28 years later, but that’s where life took us,” he said, almost three decades after studying pre-med at UND. “It’s a very tough time right now, and it makes you think of home.”
Jeff is the son of Dale and Mary Ann Knotek.
————————————————–
WTKTT:
I’m majorly seriously skeptical that a 28 yr firefighter on Prescott fire department (with it’s own wildland division and hybridization model replete with training academies/CAWRT etc) does not know what we use in drip torches. I always get that question when teaching classes to munis. Always.
Here’s the money quote and my ‘curious george’ moment from what you just posted:
“Knotek doesn’t know for sure, but he figures some monsoon-level gusts ignited a fire below where the 20 hotshot firefighters were battling the blaze above them. “I figure it came up the slope and got them,” he said. “I’m just speculating on that, though.””
Sounds like this was maybe after he got his story straight…with a little help from his friends. He was ‘just speculating on that, though.”
Woodsman
Notice the “reasonable doubt-inducing bookends” on that statement:
“Knotek DOESN’T KNOW FOR SURE, but he figures some monsoon-level gusts ignited a fire below where the 20 hotshot firefighters were battling the blaze above them. “I figure it came up the slope and got them,” he said. “I’M JUST SPECULATING ON THAT, THOUGH.”
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
September 28, 2016 at 4:52 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I’m majorly seriously skeptical
>> that a 28 yr firefighter on Prescott
>> fire department (with it’s own
>> wildland division and hybridization
>> model replete with training
>> academies/CAWRT etc) does not
>> know what we use in drip torches.
>> I always get that question when
>> teaching classes to munis. Always.
Well as long as we are chasing this particular ‘Knotek rabbit’ at the moment…
You said…
“I always get that question when teaching classes to munis. ALWAYS”.
Doesn’t that sort of CONFIRM the possibility that this ‘Knotek’ guy really MIGHT have been, himself, clueless about it?
You just said yourself that almost ALL ‘munis’ seem to be ‘clueless’ about it… UNITL they show up in a WFF ‘class’.
Well… what if ‘muni Knotek’ never got anywhere near a drip-torch OR a ‘WFF class’?
It would stand to reason ( based on what YOU just said ) that he would have remained ‘clueless’ about what really goes into a ‘drip-torch’… or how to use one.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Here’s the money quote and my
>> ‘curious george’ moment from
>> what you just posted:
>>
>> “Knotek doesn’t know for sure, but
>> he figures some monsoon-level gusts
>> ignited a fire below where the 20
>> hotshot firefighters were battling
>> the blaze above them. “I figure it
>> came up the slope and got them,”
>> he said. “I’m just speculating on
>> that, though.””
>>
>> Sounds like this was maybe after
>> he got his story straight…with a
>> little help from his friends.
>> He was ‘just speculating on
>> that, though.”
Since that was his ’24 hour’ quote ( which then changed completely in his 72 hour quote to the LA Times )… I would tend to say the 24-hour one was BEFORE he got ‘any’ story at all.
It’s obvious now, though, WHY he was ‘talking to the LA Times’.
He ( apparently ) really did ‘kick in’ and was there at the post-Incident command center just doing ‘whatever’.
The phone rang… and it was the LA Times… and somebody there just put him ( Knotek ) on the phone.
So the ‘story’ we see in the 72-hour LA Times article must have represented the ‘common thinking’ coming out of the Prescott post-Incident command center itself.
But notice again in the 24-hour ‘thought process’ the knee-jerk reaction.
That it must have simply been “The big-bad fire just came and GOT them”.
Some people still actually believe that.
Reply to Woodsman post on
September 28, 2016 at 5:06 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Notice the “reasonable doubt-inducing
>> bookends” on that statement:
Yes… but also notice the ‘message’ he was already sending ( with no evidence to back it up )…
“They couldn’t possibly have done anything wrong. The big-bad FIRE must have just come and GOT them.”
Months later… and after spending millions of taxpayer dollars… an official SAIT investigation basically said the same thing.
And some people still believe it ( because that is what they WANT to believe ).
WTKTT,
In response to:
“You said…
“I always get that question when teaching classes to munis. ALWAYS”.
Doesn’t that sort of CONFIRM the possibility that this ‘Knotek’ guy really MIGHT have been, himself, clueless about it?
You just said yourself that almost ALL ‘munis’ seem to be ‘clueless’ about it… UNITL they show up in a WFF ‘class’.
Well… what if ‘muni Knotek’ never got anywhere near a drip-torch OR a ‘WFF class’?
It would stand to reason ( based on what YOU just said ) that he would have remained ‘clueless’ about what really goes into a ‘drip-torch’… or how to use one.”
It does seem contradictory, doesn’t it? The class I teach to munis where the question of: “just what the hell is in those drip torch things you guys use?”…is a basic class in wildfire being taught to recruits of the latest paid fire department academy. So yes, it always comes up and it’s always in a very rudimentary class in wildfire. (the nature of it being an introductory/very basic class is the part I left out)
After we tell them what we use, and it’s not ‘gel’, I doubt anyone would get that wrong in the future. That dude was there for 28 years. It’s possible he didn’t know but not likely in my opinion. I bet Prescott FD carries drip torches on their engines seeing as how they are so advanced in wildland fire. Hell, it seems like a revolving door between the FS, hotshots, Prescott FD, so I bet it’s more common knowledge there then in most places.
So, if it’s like you said and maybe, just maybe, he was clueless, then why did he add the part of ‘gelled gasoline?’ Why mention anything at all about the mysterious liquid contents of a drip torch if he was so ignorant of it?
WTKTT,
I should kept it simple & just said:
“New municipal firefighters I train always want to know what we use in a drip torch and I tell them. Knotek wasn’t a new guy so I’m skeptical he didn’t know that.”
So either he didn’t know that or the media got it wrong…………….but either way, somehow ‘GELLED” fuel in driptorches got in that report, & since it so happens that helitorches & other ground ignition devices use GELLED fuels and hand-held driptorches DO NOT, I want to know why that happened. Coincidence or clue? I don’t know.
Damn. I tried to keep it simple & I just keep typing!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
September 28, 2016 at 7:08 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> somehow ‘GELLED” fuel in driptorches
>> got in that report, & since it so happens
>> that helitorches & other ground ignition
>> devices use GELLED fuels and hand-held
>> driptorches DO NOT, I want to know
>> why that happened. Coincidence
>> or clue? I don’t know.
>>
>> Damn. I tried to keep it simple & I just
>> keep typing!
All ‘Knotek rabbit chasing’ aside… it’s a GOOD QUESTION. It really is.
I get what you are ‘wondering’.
I am ‘wondering’ the same thing.
Since we know now that Knotek really didn’t know jack-shit in the FIRST ‘media’ interview he gave at the 24-hour point… then WHERE did ‘gelled gasoline’ come from just 48 hours AFTER that… when he was speaking to the LA Times?
Was there really something about ‘gelatin’ going around that post-Incident command center in Prescott following the tragedy?
Or was it just ( as you say )… the LA TIMES reporter ‘ad libbing’ and getting his own ‘drip torch’ Google search all wonked up?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092468/
do you think my past time shows influence my way of thinking today? I am a very simple gal when it comes to tv selections and what I watched…
let me get something to keep my eyes open to answer some stuff below…
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047750/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055666/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4
Yes!
COMBAT ( Starring Vic Morrow )
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055666/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4
That famous ‘Tommy Gun’ ( sold millions. I had one. ( Who didn’t? ).
Spring loaded ‘pullback’ just like the real thing.
Can you imagine what would happen today if kids were running around their neighborhoods with realistic look MACHINE GUNS?
Times have changed.
Also… COMBAT was one of the first TV series to fully develop the concept that every episode that airs should be its own self-contained ‘morality play’.
Gene Rodenberry said he used to watch ‘COMBAT’… and he made a point to continue that ‘self-contained morality play’ concept in his own TV series… “Star Trek”.
Also horribly tragic how Vic Morrow died.
Decapitated by a Helicopter on-set during the filming of that ‘Vietnam War’ segment for producer Steven Speilberg’s “Twilight Zone” movie back in July of 1982.
Director John Landis, co-producer George Folsey Jnr, pilot Dorcey Wingo, production manager Dan Allingham, and explosives specialist Paul Stewart were all charged with manslaughter.
Vic Morrow was only 53 when he died. Gone too soon.
Yeah most my pets have been named after Combat tv show…like Kirby and Lt. Hanley…Sarge Saunders…littlejohn…Doc…Caje…and I during this fire aftermath finally broke down and sold my vintage mattel tommy burst and my single shot caps…and my tiger tank…I never outgrew army time…if today I had my vintage crew back…it was either them or help a homeowner on aftermath of fire and yes I did battle that out and was not gungho…shit I am a huge lover of playing army men and I would even reenact the YHF today with army men and try to get a grasp of that weekend…but some would not earn a army man for their position…fudge no…Sonny is on his way home from Phoenix so have to pack some gear up…so goodnight…
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
SEPTEMBER 27, 2016 AT 2:00 PM
Director John Landis, co-producer George Folsey Jnr, pilot Dorcey Wingo, production manager Dan Allingham, and explosives specialist Paul Stewart were all charged with manslaughter.
Vic Morrow was only 53 when he died. Gone too soon.
MY REPLY: So I guess you see where I was going with my way of thinking….we could be missing the point on YHF and label this and that and not even focus to what isnt being shown…so they lay there thinking ohhh…ahhhh…sigh of relief…but then there is Joy who looks in the darkest corners and under ever rug…
**
** UPDATE: CANYON FIRE ROLLOVER FATALITY
No word yet on whether the California Highway Patrol has ‘completed’ its investigation of the recent rollover of Water Tender “OES WT-12” at that roundabout in the dark and the fog… or whether the driver, second-year Ventura County STRUCTURAL firefighter Adam Price will be charged with ‘driving too fast for conditions’ and/or ‘failing to have his vehicle under control’.
But there have now been some interviews with family members of deceased Ventura County STRUCTURAL firefighter Ryan Osler.
He ‘volunteered’ to go an work the ‘Canyon Fire’ on Vandenberg Air Force Base.
Some people do the ‘Wildland Thing’ to be ‘heroes’.
But others do it because they want a ‘swimming pool’.
The Ventura County Star
Article Title: Firefighter remembered by family, colleagues
Published: 8:38 p.m. PDT September 21, 2016
By: Amanda Covarrubias and Megan Diskin of the Ventura County Star
http://www.vcstar.com/story/news/local/communities/moorpark/2016/09/21/firefighter-remembered-family-colleagues/90786648/
————————————————————————–
Osler, 38, had volunteered to work the Santa Barbara County brush fire because he wanted to earn extra pay to install a pool in the backyard of his family’s Santa Clarita home, said Osler’s father-in-law, Leonard Yniguez.
————————————————————————–
yeah I think I saw that swimming pool…
http://matchmakerlogistics.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Matchmaker-Redneck-Swimming-Pool.jpg
I wonder if he thought the rules were hillbilly too- 🙂
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on September 27, 2016 at 1:06 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> yeah I think I saw that swimming pool…
Something tells me Ryan Osler would have had a hard time getting a ‘permit’ in Ventura County, California, for THAT kind of ‘swimming pool’.
I think he had something a little more ‘elaborate’ in mind.
As it turns out… Ventura County STRUCTURAL firefighter Ryan Osler had already ‘climbed the ladder’ in Ventura County and had become ( consistently ) one of the TOP 2.3 percent ‘overtime’ earners out of all 9,635 Ventura County employees pulling down taxpayer-dollar generated paychecks and overtime.
From PUBLIC documents available on the ‘Ventura County’ website…
Ventura County PUBLIC Payroll Information
http://www.ventura.org/auditor-controller/payroll-information
The following link is a ‘final’ 2015 PUBLIC Payroll report for last year ( 2015 )…
http://vcportal.ventura.org/auditor/docs/payroll/PIR_MASTER_DISTRIBUTION_FILE_2015_V2final.xlsx
NOTE: This PUBLIC document is a ‘Microsoft Excel’ spreadsheet with 9,635 payroll information entries ( one for each Ventura County employee for 2015 ).
From that PUBLIC ( 2015 ) document…
————————————————————————
Last Name: Osler
First Name: Ryan
Job Title: Fire Engineer
Department: Ventura County Fire Protection District
Minimum Annual Salary: $82,653.68
Maximum Annual Salary: $99,657.64
Base Salary: $96,545.78
Overtime: $53,184.08
Other Taxable Payments: $12,985.86
Gross Pay ( for 2015 ): $162,715.72
Medical, Dental, Vision, LTD/Life, FICA/MEDI: $9,201.93
Retirement Funding / DEF Benefit Plan: $60,621.63
Employee Share RET Pickup: $2,580.21
DEF Comp DEF Contrib Plan: ( No entry )
ER ADDL COSTS: $17,462.86
—————————————————————————
If you ‘sort’ the PUBLIC spreadsheet above according to ‘Overtime’ pay for 2015 with the ‘most overtime paid out’ at the TOP of the list of Ventura County employees, Ryan Osler’s $53,184.08 dollars of overtime for 2015 comes in at number 222 out of a total of 9,635 Ventura County employees listed in the spreadsheet for 2015.
Coming in at ‘222’ out of ‘9,635’ county employees puts Ventura County firefighter in the top 2.3 percent category with regards to ‘overtime pay’ for the year 2015 out of ALL Ventura County employees.
The absolute TOP TWO ‘winners’ as far as total overtime paid out to any Ventura County employees are both ( like Ryan Olser ) fireman with the Ventura County Fire Protection District.
Here are the TOP TWO ‘winners’ of the ‘making overtime in 2015’ contest there in Ventura County, California…
1. Conrad W. Quintana, Fire Captain, VC Fire Protection District, 2015
Overtime pay for 2015 = $132,090.49
2. Mark D. Fisher, Fire Captain, VC Fire Protection District, 2015
Overtime pay for 2015 = $118,190.66
And out of the TOP 100 ‘overtime earners’ in Ventura County for 2015, exactly 82 of them ( 82 percent of the top 100 ) are also ( like Ryan Osler ) firefighters with the Ventura County Fire Protection District.
The only other ’employees’ ( other than Ventura County firefighters ) present in the ‘top 100’ list for ‘overtime earners’ are just 13 employees whose ‘department’ is listed as “Sheriff’s Department” and just 5 employees whose ‘department’ is listed as “Health Care Agency”.
Actually… if you look at ALL of the other ‘top 221’ overtime wage earners for Ventura County in 2015 that made MORE overtime than Ryan Olser did… it breaks down like this..
Of those ‘top 221’ overtime earners in Ventura County for 2015 ( out of 9,635 total county employees )… 170 of those ‘top 221’ all work for the ‘Ventura County Fire District’.
That amounts to 76.9 percent of the ‘top 221 overtime earners’ in Ventura County being fellow ‘Ventura County Fire District’ employees just like Ryan Osler ( at slot number 222 ).
** LOOKING AT ‘VCFD’ EMPLOYEES ONLY…
Total ‘Ventura County Fire District’ employees included in the 2015 spreadsheet: 610
Ryan Osler is number 171 as far as ‘total overtime pay for 2015’ goes.
So looking at JUST ‘Ventura County Firefighters’ ( as a group )… only 170 out of the 610 ‘Ventura County Fire District’ employees made MORE ‘overtime’ than Osler did in 2015.
So is it possible no FOIAs will have any details of this Rocksteady explanation of aerial burnout operations earlier today because some are not public but private entities contracted out to do these fires
???? interesting topic….you all said today…
one I like to read about of course…
I had typed out but did not save it so I do not feel like re-doing it now but has anyone reading this blog got to work as an aerial ignition specialist on the earlier in the year fire ft mcmurray…
is it possible I will not be able to as a housewife hiker learn about these possible doubledipping privately contracted fire mercenaries
and is it possible that these so called specialists getting paid highly and not thrown in prison even when their actions turn wrong and what defines wrong by the way if you have been an aerial ignition specialist- who rules and regulates those folks? who pays them? us the taxpayer some way some how?
Does their actions become a part of the flow of reports or is it an ancient Chinese secret hidden in the desert near Baghdad from an underground structure estimated to be over 6000 years old, by two Muslims—like the Sumerian tablets????
Also what happens when the GOLDEN GENERATION of aerial ignition specialists retire or later on pass on
and we have a group of them my age or younger who are video game savvy and just like blowing things up and setting fires not comprehending the adverse affects/effects???
Why is it in my recent interviews did a firefighter state on Tenderfoot fire they heard an explosion…what type of accelerator would cause an explosion sound?
Also what is a THINGS GO WRONG scenario for an aerial ignition specialist and would anyone that is one be willing to share some GOOD DECISIONS WITH VERY BAD OUTCOMES—
where is the budget for these aerial ignition specialists and who does that budget come from usually?
on yarnell fire how would I learn if the air attack pilot had ignition experience?
can there be a sub-contracted person be aboard but not recorded to do actions in public reports—
you MUST remember as I read in the Wildfire Reader book that Forestry Service have been secretive since the start when the East was quietly contracted out to do burns while they politically campaigned in the West no burns and Native Americans seem to take the label and fall as arsonist because the government decreed law over these “light burns” of Forestry as outlawed…so I do not TRUST Forest Service totally—use CAUTION…I mean look at Smokey the Bear who is over 60 and supports burns and not the aggressive suppression of fires that he use to say ONLY YOU can prevent fires and it changed to wildfires…I love Smokey but he needs to go back to school—OLD SCHOOL that is 🙂
how do I sign up to be a part of this modern day wildfire gravy train because my hospital bills are piling up and my money is draining down quick…
where is Dan Sullivan when I need him…has he ever worked and or been exposed to such IGSP capacity in his own background..WHO ELSE???? anywhere in Arizona State Forestry is anyone currently or in the past 5 years qualified as such?
Is there any data base for FINAL COST TALLIES associated with IGSP-qualified personnel and or logistical tallies for fuel used and flight hours dedicated to such or is it all on the sly?
is it time that we just ended up “slicing thru the gordian knot”…or is there a place I can ask for FOIA for the GPS coordinates used in these actions done by aerial ignition specialists?
I do not have my “thinking cap” on today because of my mri results had some suspicious areas I have to follow up on…but I still do not comprehend the “challenges” made to RTS and why it is a foremost “priority” when we need not also think WHO THE HELL is next to be president—we should be mindful to the WILDFIRE POLITICAL CAMPAIGN that keeps killing GOOD people. thank you deeply for touching base on burnout operations because IT IS AN AREA we eye witnessed to 2 fires here locally—I would hope Gary (nudge nudge) or Woodsman and or Bob Powers feel challenged and or obligated to explain what I saw and chime in and EXPLAIN on HOW and WHEN they became just another tool out of a toolbox in that industry?
I honestly WISH I could turn over the apple carts versus seeing the spite remarks and share what I know but like RTS does—I respect and honor people who with purity tell me things and SHOW me how they came to that conclusions…I try my best to hint and give clues an such to really gain personal clarity…
Let me embolden wwtktt a bit one of my famous cheerleader chants normally for Woodsman and say BACKBURNS/BACK FIRE/BURNOUT OPERATIONS and TREATMENTS…go- wttktt- go!!! rah rah rah…
what in the SAIR tells us about the Lewis crew…could they tell us more than what has been told to us over some good whiskey already???
could I go run up to one of them and say again “tag, you are it.
Who on that fire is willing to the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth because has anyone paid attention to them and who made it up real fast since the YHF…hmmm…just saying…
are they busy pleading the 5th like Blue Ridge and others…at the moment and until we hear more from the MISSING ELEMENTS maybe I should double tap those who like their backs to the camera as most likely a part of the missing elements…and I cannot speak on it but have you yet ANYONE figured out the “loozi-anna” accent yet?
are we ready folks to expose the truth and what will it mean if exposing it made it criminal—is there a way that can wash away the cases that were settled and upheld and those people who lost a loved one can gain justice through another way? what are the rules there…is the world ready because it is already rolling behind the scenes to proper areas…
“lights out”…good night…
Sonny stopped by and we just briefly went to Wickenburg and helped a homeless man who county recently evicted due to his animals—and also helped a homeless 82 y.o. woman who lost her parents and husband and had a heart attack and county is messing with her too…seems so sad that I asked county if there is anything I can do to help vs. making a woman who just got out of the hospital do a hearing over her yard sale stuff..seems stupid…she lost her family and it is hard at her age and health to bring it all in and out so she covers it up M-F than sells on weekend…she had to leave her home with a HUGE orange sticker…who runs the county and passes out these violations like its the afternoon ice cream truck man from the 70’s as he would say “you wanna piece of candy lil girl”…crazy then and crazy now to see how the people running the shows do not get the PEOPLE even carries over into firefighting industry…I wonder how many safety officers know the very men and women he is creating safety for or if he just follows the yellow brick road of 10&18s and LCES and have kids like Donut call them hillbilly—how did that make you feel safety officers when Donut said that? just curious…
Welcome to good old free America–Joy was speaking of a man in Wickenburg whose home and living were taken away by that county. It is all over the country now–I had gotten some guinees, chickens and a pet Iguana from this guy’s pet shop before. The county did not like the way he did business and complaints from people that his shop did not meet their standards now has him on the street. We were helping load his stuff and now he is looking for a place to live–I offered to allow him to temporarily stay on my property but it is too out of the way for him. But his situation is not as bad as Natalie, 82 year old down the street. She has a constant yard sale in front because a recent heart attack has kept her from any ability as a widow to do anything and poverty has knocked on her door –hospitals are not cheap==shit an ambulance bill across town from VA hospital parking lot where I fell down to the Hospital across town of Prescott was $4800 dollars. Well you can estimate what a 40 mile trip by ambulance would cost and I would guess at least five times that. Well this lady had in 91 donated property to the Yarnell fire department. Her fine from the county for having that flea market stuff in the front yard is 30 grand. Talk about a rip off fine. Likely the new fire department does not know the good deeds this lady had done for them since it was so long ago. But you don’t see the county giving leniency for an elderly disabled person nor the good church members lining up to help a poor widow. Maybe she is not a member of the churches here that handled all the millions forgot the widow and the requirement for a good Christian to look out for some one like that. They passed her buy-her bad record in life–went past a stop sigh once right down the street–and a sign that an idiot put up where a yield ought to be. You can see clear down the street that comes into Mountainaire and I have yet to meet a car coming from that way, and if I do I will Yield. We did offer to help but she did not want to move anything–she is angry that she even got a fine now. Good old American justice, but it is everywhere. When you have people on your block here going around and writing down every little infraction against county rules you have the snitch mentality of a communist country. Sadly the county people are part of a system that has no heart and could give a shit less about someone in such dire straits. But this is the new mind and mentality–get while the getting is good and fuck your neighbor if you can. Well it is not all that negative–there are many in this town that do go out of their way to help their neighbor–and you don’t have to be a Christian to have good sense and lend a hand to those in need where you can.
Now again, reading the book and also talking to Dr. Ted Putnam–he is handy and wise about fires. Both the book and he says there are ping pong balls that set fires and men out of helicopters that go along string out fire to get things going fast for these burns, burn outs, and whatever else you want to call these thing where massive burning is a part of the fire fighting game. And Gary labels it right when he says that is what these firemen do–burn baby burn. Ted says he has seen those, especially Vietnam guys string fire out of helicopters with glee. Maybe there is something to be said for the pyromania we are told about. The FS attitude that why the hell would you live in a town like Yarnell when there is manzanita thick as Sheriff Arapio’s Phoenix Tent Camps. It is a good question why the hell live in Arizona ? But then the attitudes are just about the same in any state–California takes the lead and the others soon follow. People according to the new think ought to be in a cubicle, all wear green or olive drab and live in olive drab housing–cookie cutterville like the Weaver Estates where Joy and Hubby have their abode and have to meet HOA approval for every move they make and so close to a neighbor you hear him fart. Personally I am glad people do that and enjoy that way, but I like a little elbow room and privacy and say fuck the HOA thing. But then I was honorably discharged from that sort of life–and had a perfect record there because I wanted to do my part in protecting the freedoms I would have as an American citizen when I got out. That was necessary in the military–but now I do wonder what the Viet Nam war really was==protecting America or was it protecting big interests and nothing but a political play that cost thousands of young lives. Debatable for sure.
The more you look into the fire fighting business, the more it smells and the more you see the smoke screen of what is really going on. The public is being played for their tax dollars in too many cases and the fellow out there busting ass doing the dirty work is being treated poorly–even sacrificed for sake of the fire gods in such instances as the Yarnell incident. Their reputations mean more than lives, and we damn sure see the cover ups to do that. Shame has nothing to do with the game–and if you talk to some of them they can make you think they are angels from heaven and spew out words of honor and praise to their fellow fire gods as if Jesus himself were walking beside them. No one wants his shit investigated, and how in the hell can such a potent force with such strict mum rules be exposed? Gagged until you puke it out.
The “ping pong ball machine” you talk about is the PSD… aka the Red Dragon or Primos MK 3 usually.
It is a machine that takes “ping pong ” type balls with potassium permanganate inside them an injects them with Ethylene Glycol (antifreeze). The ball then drops to the ground. An exothermic reaction occurs where the ball then bursts into flame after about 20 to 40 seconds after injection and then will burn for approximately 2 minutes. This technique creates many many spot fires which as they grow will join together burning the whole area. The PSD is used where you have a very receptive fuel bed (lots of dry fine fuels, such as the Manzanita/chaparral type. You would not be able to get anything to burn if you tried this in a Cedar/Hemlock type stand..
The helitorch is a 45 gallon drum of gellied gasoline, which is suspended under a helicopter and is operated by the pilot (or specialist) depending on policy (IN BC we do not fly with the torch machine, other provinces they do). The helitorch is useful where you want really significant fire and heat in order to build convection and to pull the fire into what you are igniting. It is commonly used for igniting harvesting blocks with significant slash loading where it would be too slow going for people to try to ignite with hand drip torches (and a hell of a lot safer).. It is also used when you want to do some severe fire impact (such as burn an area of standing timber to look like the face of the moon, without having to send a crew in to mop up or extinguish. Very effective at building large scale burnt black fuel breaks.
Doing any ignitions is very efficient, burning off forest fuels rather than trying to put them out, but having said that, adding more fire to a fire does come with inherent risks that require a significant amount of training, knowledge and experience..
As far as your question if there was an IGSP on either of these fires, the IGSP may be a dedicated position or a double duty role. For example, when I go out on an IMT I usually go as an FBAN/IGSP.
As far as Ft MacMurray, I did not get to work there as an IGSP (I did on the fire North of Ft Mac back in 2011, as IGSP) but am friends with the guy who did.
Their main ambition was to burn off large areas, drawing them back into the fire itself, thus consuming the forest fuels prior to the arrival of the flaming front. It was also used to increase visibility for fire fighting aircraft….. Hot air rises, and takes the smoke with it, so you light up significant areas, get them really hot and the smoke will no longer be “laid over”, but hopefully going straight up, allowing air tankers and bucket ship helicopters access into primary targets for aerial suppression efforts.
In missions like Ft Mac it is a very stressful, intense roll of the dice, when nothing else seems to be working as a plan B or C or D or E….
Joy and Sonny.. You also have my email if you want to contact me there with specifics..
Well…I have just been put into the position by an email, actually I put myself in the position, that I now have to retract a bunch of things I have said for about 3 years now. In general, I have said the GMIHC were heroes before they died, not because they died.
And that is wrong. The GMIHC were not heroes because they died or before they died. They were 19 guys doing the job they were hired to do. Strike that…that’s the problem and that is one really big casual factor in why they died. They were trying to do a job they were NOT hired to do, save a town from a wildfire and be something they were not…heroes.
That is why my first reaction is always to back up to the next drainage and backfire it. The houses in the drainage, valley or on the ridge are just trees with doors in them. Burn baby burn. Van Bateman was right about one thing…there is a little pyro in all of us, ever since we crawled out of our caves and started roasting our meat instead of eating it raw, staying warm instead of shivering through the night in the darkness and using fire to fend off the wild animals who would have mad a meal of our ancestors. FIRE is beautiful.
This topic has the potential to be a really long and complicated one, but I thought I would kick it off. I really don’t know where all of this hero stuff came from….strike that, I know exactly where it came from the fucking round hats. They are the ones who set themselves up to be heroes,,, and somehow, we (WF) have decided that we should be like them…heroes.
We never thought of ourselves in those terms because it was the farthest thing from our minds. We were saving trees, actully we were burning trees and cutting them down by the hundreds to save the FOREST. There was no hero worship or glory in that. As I have said many times on this thread, nobody back in those days gave a second thought to WF and they sure as hell didn’t have any idea or care what a hotshot was.
And none of us…ever gave a moments thought that we needed to risk our lives to save TREES. That has changed since the cancer called ICS has spread throughout the system. The first thing that needs to happen, is we need to stop referring to WF as heroes. That word should never have entered our vocabulary or thought process and we need to eliminate it, but good luck doing that now.
More to follow on this topic…I hope.
Oh…and one more thing. I kicked off my second year in Santa Fe by instructing the crew to take a full sheet of heavy plywood, router out the slogan I made up, paint the letters red, build a frame around it and attach it between two huge posts sunk into the ground in front of our headquarters. The sign read;
If you do it for money, you’re an arsonist.
If you do it for fun, you’re a pyromaniac.
If you do it for both, you’re a Hotshot.
WELCOME
So yeah, Van was right. The only thing we loved more than doing a burnout was doing a backfire. The only thing is…you have to control those urges.
And nobody ever told me to take that sign down. Like I said before, the Santa Fe National Forest gave me a free hand to give them a crew they could be proud of. It was all about esprit de corps, crew cohesiveness, and a common purpose mixed with a lot of discipline and a little love. The Santa Fe Hotshots were a great crew back then…and they still are today!
But not heroes….never heroes. I am amazed now that I have been made to really stop and think about it, that concept would have made us LAUGH. Didi mau most ricky tick MF!
I think we need to have a quick discussion here, about backfires/burnoffs/burnouts etc for the non WFF types, so that they understand the practice.
Using fire from an established guard (be it hand guard, road, river, pavement etc) is way more efficient than dragging hose and building guard trying to follow a fires edge. Straighten it out, secure it and burn it. (Efficiency)
In todays era of fire behaviour being more dangerous/volatile than it has been in the past, due to global warming, fuel loading etc backing off a couple hundred yards and firing it is a lot less dangerous than going direct attack and hoping the winds don’t shift (Safety of WFF).
Not sure about your organizations, but in mine, because of the demographic shift of retirees, the art and science of using fire as a tool has been mainly lost and now the pendulum has started to swing back, with our IMT and fireline personnel understanding how beneficial lighting fire for suppression purposes can be… However, having said that, being competent in doing this takes training, experience and significant mentorship. Its easy to show the principles and logic of doing it in classrooms using powerpoints and video clips, but a whole different ball game when it actually comes time to do the deed in the field.
Another shift has been with the higher ups in management, that support or do not support this tactic. A lot of our management types did not climb thru the ranks of the WFF world, they have come to us from District “Forest Service” land management, tree harvesting, planting etc, so when you tell them you are gonna use fire to on a significant area to prevent the existing fire from growing they look at you like you have lost your marbles.
I have less than 4 years to retirement and take every opportunity I get as an Ignition Specilaist to teach the up and comers how/why/when using fire to fight fire can be beneficial.
Looking at the Yarnell fire from this year (I forget what the name was), I can see why the crew lit off from where they did (with the exception of downhill from that garage) IF THE TACTIC WAS NECESSSARY TO CONTROL THE FIRE…
So, lets just say the fire was coming down the hill to the area that was in the picture. We will just say that is a fact (it may or may not be, but for the purpose of this discussion lets say it was). Where they were igniting, right along private property made sense. They had good access for support (water tenders, engines, etc) there was a definite fuel type change (brush to mown lawns), easy effectiveness of retardant if required from aircraft). Slope was going uphill away from the residences, so in theory, the fire should have ran uphill to where the wildfire was backing down the hill. From a safety perspective, crews had very good escape routes that could easily be used for a quick escape.
To me it appears that the crew who was doing the lighting was “semi experienced”… Let’s put it that way. They knew to go to a defendable line of defence, support it with engines and hose lays and light the fire to go uphill to the wildfire. I say semi experienced, cause someone shit the bed by lighting downhill around that out building. Placing running head fire going uphill to a structure that is not prepped in any way is a no win situation….. If they would have watered down the structure first (including under it (If possible, if it was on sona tunes or pilings vs a full concrete slab, it may have worked… If they would have spent the 30 minutes to brush out all of the tall brush within 10 yards of the building prior to ignition and wet down the remaining debris, maybe.
Burning off is a very valuable, efficient, successful tactic IF there is good training, experience, mentorship, supervision and After Action Reviews including performance evaluations.
Yeah…right on Rocksteady! Back in my day, it was all pretty basic, grab a fussee and light em’ up!
But everything you said sounds great to me. I am just jazzed that we (at least I am going with it) have identified another contributing factor (not casual factor as I said up above) in the deaths of the crew.
So…to all of the naysayers out there and the quitters, well…I’m sorry you left but I am glad I stayed Which was always my strongest point as a hotshot, I tried my best to keep going.
And RTS…as far as Bob and I go, I didn’t do anything to run him off. I think he just went fishin’ and will he will be back. I can’t run anybody off anymore than anyone can run me off (except for John Dougherty), everyone makes that decision for themselves.
But if I were to ever finish the book I would like to write (Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters) I can tell you that I don’t think it would be complete without a chapter on the role the “Hero Complex” played in the deaths of the crew.
Once again, WTF…why did we ever start even saying that? Why did I ever even start saying that?
Those men were heroes because they got up and went to work to feed their families, but so is the single mom who gets up every day and goes to work at a minimum wage job because of the Goddamn Republicans…oh and one more thing, and because of the Goddamn Democrats as well!
So…here is my take-a-way. I don’t know about YOU people, but I am glad I am still here to take part in ONE more CONTRIBUTING factor in the deaths of the crew and I hope there is at least one FNG WF out there who is reading this, or might read this someday and to that person I say, “Here is another situation that shouts watch out, a fire line supervisor who had a hero complex…run away!”
Oh…and one more thing. Of course I don’t have a problem with the Round Hats when they stay in their world and don’t muck up my house.
As I have said before, if I fall over with a heart attack while walking my little dog, I hope they show up. Same thing if our little rental house catches on fire, you know who I am goin’ t0 call? It ani’t the Ghost Busters!
As a mater of fact, me dear wife did SHATTER her leg in five places (just saw the bill, over $80,000) walking her 90 pound lab when he knocked her down and do you know who went to save her a few months ago? That’s right…it was the Lacey, Washington Fire Department…and they did one hell of a job. God bless the Round Hats!.
OK…just one more thing. I just watched that 9/11 special, those hundreds of FDNY and NYPD who went to those towers and up those stairs…they were heroes.
I can see where the Round Hats are heroes if they run into a burning building to save a baby etc., but that should NEVER enter the equation for WF.
OK…maybe engines crews under some circumstances, but NEVER hand crews NEVER! Engine crews have the option to drive away at any time…not so with hand crews.
And that actually happened to us (Happy Jack) on our home district when we almost got pinched off on a kick ass fire at th bottom of a huge U of flames, (I was a brand new squad boss of Squad II, and that engine full of Hopis’ were laughing their asses off as they raced past us to safety leaving us in the dust, flames and smoke.
I actually turned at one point and told my fractured squad to take a knee so I could get a photo of it, I will post it later…because I KNOW you want to see it!
OK…because, well…this IS what I do, here is the photo I mentioned.
Now…I know what you MAY be thinking. Ordering my squad to take a knee in the middle of running out of the bottom of a U of flames was a bad idea…in hindsight I would have to agree with you.
Clarification – This was my entire squad (not fractured, the crew was fractured), I count 8. The squad sawyer is blurred because he was bringing up the rear running with his heavy saw and he didn’t have time to come to a complete stop before I snapped the photo, And then a split second after I took it…I mean we were didi mau most ricky tick MF.
Why do those guys look so happy? I yelled “SMILE!” Young people do stupid things while fightin’ fire…there is no doubt about that.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Check it out. I think I can see the hose lay abandoned by the engine crew before they left us to die!
How about Mogollon Rim instead of your Mongollon Rim?
You just love making this shit up as you go
Man…you are just full of negativity today and I love you like a brother from another mother.
Negativity? Nothing negative about my post. Mere observations and a slight correction that is very common for many people.
Fred…you and I go way back…like 40 years or so. And I hate to see you like this. I want to work with you to try and find out what the underlying cause of your anger is, and where your hostility is coming from?
I have admitted:
You are smarter than me,
You were a better hotshot than me,
You were a better hotshot crew boss than me,
You lasted 26.5 years and I was DONE after only 10 years.
I mean…you were like Father Knows Best, a Sensei and a Medicine Man, in addition to being the best darn hotshot crew committee lead like….ever, all rolled into one.
And now you have a great retirement gig going where you travel around the country, make actual currency that can be used to buy things and you are RELEVANT.
I just make stupid videos and pretend I am making money by posting Google Ad Words. What more can I do to help you like me?
It was all that stupid stuff I said about the Payson Ranger District and the Tonto…right? The whole…you worked below the MOGOLLON Rim…I didn’t mean it. You were every bit as good as those of us who worked above the MOGOLLON Rim…OK? So…we good now?
And FYI…I have forgiven you because you fucked me over on the Murdock Basin Fire on that night shift vs. day shift. You couldn’t help taking the easy way out, you were from the Tonto for God’s sake, what more could anyone expect from you?
Now…the debate has started so please quit fuckin’ with me. I am like Trump, I can’t help but respond. This stupid bastard is going to get into a Twitter feud with some Russian 14 year old and BOOM, here comes the nuclear winter. I got to keep my eye,(maybe both of them) on him.
FYI – Hillary is already kickin’ his ass until his nose bleeds. I’m with HER!
Gary,
You posted: “… because you fucked me over on the Murdock Basin Fire on that night shift vs. day shift. You couldn’t help taking the easy way out, you were from the Tonto for God’s sake, what more could anyone expect from you?
Now…the debate has started so please quit fuckin’ with me. I am like Trump, I can’t help but respond.”
WRONG. You f**ked yourself on the Murdock Basin Fire when you chose night shift for your Crew and I chose day shift for mine.
You caved when you told them you’d do whatever THEY wanted YOU to do. I told them what WE wanted to do.
I MADE the choice for my Crew. The IMT made the choice for your Crew because you allowed them to do that.
We were each given a choice. You went first. You had the CHOICE, just as I did, to tell them you wanted day shift. There was nothing about taking “the easy way out.”
STILL holding that grudge! Amazing.
It’s quid pro quo with me, one for one. I will quit messing with you when you quit f**king with me. Pretty simple.
And one more thing. You claim to love America so much, yet you are siding with Killery, the Black Widow Spider of politics. She should be in Federal prison.
C’mon Fred, you already gave me that whole story the FIRST time I accused you of that, and then I admitted you were right…your whole story is right,
I always said, “We ride for the brand, we are here to do whatever needs to be done.” I did fuck us over. I was just baiting you AGAIN.
Like the last time this came up, we liked the toughest shifts in the hardest places, it was in keeping with our view of ourselves as HOTSHOTS!
Do you think you should get checked for early onset Alzheimer’s and dementia?
And you are right there are some real problems with Hillary. I am going to vote for my old Governor of New Mexico because I am pretty sure that anybody who wants to be president can’t fuck everything up if he is smoking dope all of the time. Am I right? At least he will be mellow and there won’t be a nuclear winter.
Who do you think won the debate?
OK RTS…let’s get back to something important. What do you think of the Hero Syndrome? Do you think that was a factor in the deaths of the crew? Do you think I should make it a chapter in the book I might write…someday?
Gary,
I think you may have something there on that. Go for it.
It was basically implied in the statements made by Wildland Battalion Chief Willis in the News Conference video as well as his video interview for military.com. That one and the written ones were more intended for the 3 Marines, however, the video interview also had some hero insinuations.
Thank you, although I can’t take credit for it, the concept was sent to me in an email.
But see…you and I do have more in common than we have in difference…or something like that.
Just awoke and barely one eye open except both eyes lit up ooen since this is my topic at hand…so is aerial burnout operations vs ground still the hotshots terrain or are they another kind of breed? Just wondering since what I seen in 2 fires what do they call the aerial folks on a burnout operations
Ignition operations can occur in two or more formats…
Hand ignition, aerial or a combination of them.
As an ignition specialist, when I am doing a firing operation, be it with the helitorch or ground crews igniting , I am the GUIDING MIND.. In the situation where a hothot crew is building guard and burning it off, that is not a Ignition Specialist role, that is just good old firefighting 101. An IGSP would not have to supervise, UNLESS, it was super risky and the IC wanted the IGSP to supervise.
On the 2 yarnell fires, where they did burnoffs etc, as far as I am aware, there was no IGSP overhead. Only Air Attack, who may or may not have Ignition experience.
In my world when you say aerial ignitions, that means the delivery method of the fire.. Either with a helitorch (45 gallon drum of burn fuel hanging under the helicopter) or using the PSD (plastic sphere dispenser) … If you go to SEI industries and search for the Red Dragon it will show you what a PSD is and does.
And I will honestly say, each organization treats firing operations differently, heck, even every different Incident Management team does.. So this is not golden rule..
Hey Rocksteady – I was thinking of you during this traumatic episode in my life, did you see how the very nice Canadians saved my ass while the Donald Trump supporters spit on me?
https://youtu.be/jxfL4yf1Gks
God Bless the Canadian People!
Got nothing to do with nationality Gary, some people are just dicks no matter where they come from…
Mind you, I did think the one guys comment was ignorant about you “driving a Japanese machine and putting Americans out of work”… What a load of crap.. If the American manufacturers would make a quality product (of any sort) with the efficiency of the Japanese, at a reasonable price, consumers would not be buying imported products… Simple economics, not underlying hidden agenda type thoughts with a big tinged of racism involved..
It is a fact that the quality imports (Honda, Toyota etc) do so well in the US because they are a quality reliable product at a reasonable price compared to what the domestic manufacturers can produce…
For all that goof knows maybe your machine was manufactured in the Good Old US of A, but at the Kawasaki factory (if there is one in the US, I never googled it)..
I don’t know if you could hear it all, but when I first walked up and said my Teryx was dead in the sand, the first thing their ring leader said to me was, “What’s the matter, did you rubber band break?”
And then there were about a dozen comments related to that when I engaged the entire group later on that were even worse although they repeated that one several times. That is why they didn’t help me. Racist xenophobic white trash.
And the truth is, I would rather have a Polaris but the configuration of their seats don’t allow me to move the front seats back (they hit the tub body) because I am not 5’6” tall. I had four inch seat bracket extensions fabricated for that Teryx.
And besides that…the Teryx is assembled in America, in addition to that, there were the jobs for the longshoremen who unloaded the containers of parts, the truckers who shipped them, the salespeople, cleaning staff, service team and did I mention the service team since I bought a lemon, etc and so forth? Plus all of the ancillary jobs because those people spend money in their local community.
The bottom line is this, the lives of that pack of dogs is filled with things made in other countries, don’t tell those boys only buy American goods. It’s impossible to do.
We have owned Honda’s for about 40 years (we only have Jeeps and a Ford van now) and nothing like that has ever even come close to happening like that to me before. Even during the auto company strikes when they were beating up Japanese cars with sledgehammers in their parking lots.
Why now? I’m glad you asked. That race baiting, xenophobic, misogynistic, religious bigot who is looking forward to bringing on a nuclear winter for the few of us who survive his first few weeks (just because he wants to try out our thermonuclear weapons to see if they really work) in office is inciting these people to violence. I swear to God…I felt like an African American or Hispanic at one of his rally’s for a few minutes there.
Shhhhh…and don’t tell anyone…but I think RTS is a Donald Trump supporter….pass it on.
Althogh I do have some good news for you (and no…I didn’t call Geico and save a ton of money on my insurance) Polaris just introduced their new 2017 Ace!
And they made it longer with a lot more leg room so I can fit into it! And it comes with a 900 cc engine with a 900 pound machine. That Teryx has an 800 cc engine with a 1700 pound machine.
I am finally going to be able (just as soon as I talk my accountant into it) to keep up a little better with some of those absolutely awesome machines in the dunes by going faster and climbing higher!.
I mean…check out this bad boy.
https://youtu.be/cziqNayVFq0
To me the comments were “patriotic” “Protectionist” crap… Good ole boys from Podunk….
Cue the banjo music !!!!!!
As a former LEO, I am surprised you did not lay at least one of them flat out, especially the guy who spit on the camera…
Unfortunately, that is the way our society has become, these adults (allegedly) thought that was appropriate behaviour towards another human, which to me indicates as teenagers or earlier twentiers that they should have had their faces smashed in a couple times so that they would learn to respect someone that may in fact kick their ass when their body cant cash the cheques their mouths are writing..
In this day and age, and not just in the US, you go verbally or physically off on someone they way they did (that woman deserved a beating in the worst way).. what would have stopped you from pulling out the old GLock 9 and capping everyone of them??? Don’t they think about this?? Having a gang of your buddies, to back your bully tactic is great til someone pulls out a gun… then whos got the most friends (I say you, cause your clip has 15 and 1 in the chamber 🙂 )
I am glad to see the Canadian helped you out. We need more of those types of people of all races and nationalities..
Now you are getting with the spirit! Check out the kid who didn’t want me to leave standing in front of his rear license plate. Watch him watch me…I will bet you my monthly retirement check he had a handgun right next to his hand hoping he got the chance to use it.
And yes..it would have been gratifying to punch that stupid fuck in his big adam’s apple after he jerked my camera and my neck and then watch him choke to death on his own blood and vomit as I pulled my Sig Sauer 938 from my pocket to cover the rest of them…but what I really wanted was the video tape to attract visitors to my web site. I need entertaining stuff. Plus…I was taught better at FLETC, we all revert to our training in times of stress. De-escalate…walk away, live to fight another day.
Although this is America…most of us of us are armed all of the time. Plus, I do have retirement creds and a badge that allow me to carry concealed in all 50 states plus the D.C.
And .when I left there I met with a patrol sergeant from the Coos County Sheriff’s Office to give him the video and that stupid fuck is going to have charges filed against him so I am going to get the last laugh.
And now that whole fucking wild dog pack is going to be afraid to show their faces with their fancy sand
jeeps because everyone is going to know they broke the Backcountry Golden Rule,
“Thou shalt render aid and provide assistance to the extent that you are able given the limits of your abilities and resources to another back country user in need of your help.”
Jan (the Canadian) was a cool guy though…right? The fact is…everybody is cool down there and on Jeeping trails are cool because nobody knows when they are going to need the help. Like I told them, I have Jeeped all over the west and I have NEVER met anybody like them in my life. They were complete and total aberrations.
Plus…I mean, Jeepers usually go out of their way to look for trouble and someone to help so they can use all of the tools and on-board fancy stuff like welders they have invested a ton of money in.
And I am going to stick by my story that the kind of hate speech they were spewing is EXACTLY what you hear inside and outside of those Trump rallies.
For example, I was stuck so many times in the backcountry during my younger years without the right gear to get out…I am now the King of Recovery Gear
I love to find people stuck just so I can use all of my gear, power winches, hand winches, nylon straps of every shape and size, logging truck weight tow chains, 4 tire chains per vehicle, cables, wire rope, D-rings & shackles and more D rings and shackles
I love to get stuck and find people stuck…it’s my “thing.” In fact…if you get stuck and it looks hopeless, email me, and I will be on my way. But only if it looks hopeless, otherwise call someone who is closer to your location.
My van has a 16,000 pound Warn winch, my Jeep has a 12 thousand pound Warn winch, my Teryx has a 450 pound Warn winch and my qaud had a 350 pound Warn winch and I carry come-a-longs and hand winches in addition to a Hi Lift jack in my Teryx, who carry’s a Hi Lift jack in a UTV, that’s crazy? So…call me.
I do also have an LEO background and would loved to have “Scrooged” out the whole crew…
G-man,
Very impressive! That inventory list of self-rescue tools is a sure sign of a man that has been really, really mired bad in the past! I like it.
I’m fairly certain (& I’m only correcting you to make myself seem knowledgeable & therefore super-cool) your UTV & ATV have 4500 & 3500 LB winches not 450/350…because a 450 LB winch would be pathetically puny & therefore not like you at all…not for the way YOU get stuck. You have an 8-ton freakin’ winch on your bitchin’ VAN for God’s sake! I bet that drum is huge! What size cable?
You only ‘think’ you have a come-a-long unless you own one of these:
https://www.wyeth-scott.com/
Ductile iron, made in USA since 1934! Badass tool!
If you don’t have one already, I hope I just cost you some $$. And…you probably need at least 2 the way you break shit. You’re welcome.
Woodsman
I hear you speaking loud and clear, and if it comes under the category of “recovery”, I have to have at least one of them and often more than that I have the regular com-a-longs, but here is my hand winch, which is not too shabby.
http://store.arbusa.com/Magnum-Hand-Winch-Unit-Only-MHWU-P3613.aspx
And FYI…I do have Wyeth Scott come-a-long, it was the first piece of recovery I ever owned.
As far as my Warn 16.5 goes here it is.
https://www.amazon.com/WARN-68801-16-5ti-Thermometric-Winch/dp/B0002Z9T1O
I think it is a 3/8 cable?
I have a real collection of snatch blocks too, one that that will even handle the 16.5 Warn.
If I ever get that bitch (non-gender specific) van stuck, I will need both. My van weighs over 9,000 pounds with gear. I carry two tall boy Hi Lifts in my van because one won’t pick it up,
I also have one of those giant triangle blades that buries itself into the ground and goes further down the harder you winch on it, if there are no trees nearby, kind of an expensive deadman.
.
The 450 pound is under powered for the UTV, but it is the biggest one they make for a UTV but I do have some good snatch blocks. I have some video of us getting unstuck…I will post them when I get them made and you will see what a problem getting that Teryx stuck down in the dunes can be.
But sometimes…I get it stuck just so I can get it unstuck. I am currently in a 12 step program for “recovery” addicts….get it? Recovery addicts…I am a real HOOT!
I am super paranoid, and I hate to admit it, but I have needed a lot of that down in the dunes. It is easy to get stuck down there if the sand is dry.
Well…thank you. I wanted to, but that stupid kid wanted to pull out whatever big gun he was standing next to..,although I could have got him first.
But that’s not the point. I wanted to kill them, but it would have fucked up my retirement. They were really a stupid bunch of people and they had not idea who they were fucking with.
Just because I look like a stupid fat old man…doesn’t mean I can’t still be a problem, people have underestimated me my whole life….and some have lived to regret it.
They should have figured it out when I walked up to them, they should have known there was something “off” with me.
I mean…who does that except somebody who is armed and ready to get western or just plain fuckin’ crazy? I was both.
I think the guy who felt bad and came down to offer his help did sense something was up with me, because he didn’t want any part of what was happening…or he was just a really nice guy and felt bad for the old fat man.
I will tell you though, those people REALLY pissed me off and I was shocked when he spit on my camera and some went on my fact, but my training did kick in I knew I couldn’t kill him, which would have meant killing several of them. So…I thanked them and left. De-escalation…right?
Cool video though…right?
Seriously though RTS, lets’ get back to something important, what do you think of the Hero Syndrome?
Do think was a factor in the deaths of the crew and do you think I should make it a chapter in the book I might write…someday?
I am going to have go Google “Scrooged”
I don’t think it means the same thing as “Shagged?”
Well,.
Google doesn’t speak Canadian slang. And Google Translate doesn’t have it either.
Does it mean…kill?
Yes, Gary, there was more back burning and burn outs than the FS, Departments that did that and so forth. For certain we did see and verify that there was a burn out at the Shrine and the time we did not see when we saw that posting of video. The wind was already whipping trees at that time even down in that canyon of the Shrine, which makes sense since the canyon acts as a wind tunnel as well. That fire could have been related to trapping the GMHS so of course we do not get the knowledge of when it was done–time factor was much needed there to see if it had any influence at all. Of course the fellows doing a burn out there would have had no clue that the men had been ordered down into a death trap that was directly above anything started in the shrine area and the fact that the wind was headed up toward the Helms from the Shrine Area. The C from LCES was terribly missing in this Yarnell killer fire. There was said that the radios were bad, but Donut was listening in well enough–I suppose 19 men just took a notion to go crazy and drop off into a canyon with their own decision because according to Willis–communications were nil during a black out when no one knew that Marsh and company were doing what amounted to breaking the L, E, an S parts of the simple LCES. Whew, go for broke and call it Hillbilly rules trying to stop the wild land fire fighter from doing his structure protection. Anyhow it seems to be thin soup we are being fed–I think just about every Jefe (spanish for Boss) knew exactly where those men were and what they were doing. Of course no one wants to own up to causing the death of 19 so it goes back to the old story of well those fellows could have refused. Brown only did some talking without permission from the next above–he was on the Yarnell Fire line and a boss himself–but he damn sure got his walking papers. How much more for a man to get fired if he denied a direct order to go down and protect structures. Especially the GMHS crew since they were hybrids–duty to both wild land fire fighting and structure protection at the same time–likely more to structure protection since they were protecting Prescott residents as well as their wild land duties. On that note, at least one deputy told us that they knew where the GMHS were and were doing. He said the problem was everything was in confusion. He had that right.
And talk of loving to burn, look at the Tenderfoot Fire–an apt name since it looked pretty much a tenderfoot job–those guys burned out a hell of a bunch of things but it did up the ante for the tax payer. It was BS that Yarnell was saved by that burn out but it was good way to provide more fire fighting work and turn up the retardant drops–even gave work to power companies to restore power that was burned away.
Sonny- the unique part in the 2 fires is this is a very tiny town; Yarnell in comparison to the one by Big Sur and in Oregon; the Pioneer yet there is a movie made because of the tragedy of lives lost of firefighters but no mention of the lives lost since YHF…in town and on other fires…will we ever get our story told Sonny…I think we have…wink…called Investigative Media…if we passed on we know we did our best for the town and those firefighters that have fallen not just the GMHS….
THANK YOU JOHN DOUGHERTY
Sorry Gary.. I meant to type “scrogged”… a term we used to use when someone was in dire need of a knock up side the head with a Maglite or Baton..
I was on my phone and it did the auto correct thing…
OK, thank you, scrogging them WOULD be better than killing them, but spitting in my face really did piss me off, although sometimes scrogging does lead to killing when things escalate.
Brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 25, 2016 at 8:31 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Like I already posted, I have no reason to lie yet you imply and inside uate that I
>> am a liar and/or that I lied about my comments on the Strawberry Fire.
After recently just ‘jumping’ on here to VOLUNTEER the ‘information’ that you were actually WORKING ( as a ‘Safety Officer’ ) on the ‘Strawberry Fire’ the day First-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe was KILLED…
…you then ‘wrapped’ up your ‘voluntary’, ‘unsolicited’ PUBLIC comments with TWO points…
You said ( first )…
“I will say that the 72-Hour Report is MOSTLY accurate.”
YOU ( yourself ) even took the time to CAPITALIZE the word ‘MOSTLY’ ( for emphasis ).
You also ( then ) simply said…
“I am very limited in what I am ‘allowed’ to say because I was involved, albeit tangentially.”
Notice also that YOU ( yourself ) put those ‘single quote marks’ around the word ‘allowed’ ( also for emphasis ).
Those are BOTH ‘unclear statements’… and all I am asking for is some CLARIFICATION.
What do mean when you say ( with emphasis ) that US Forestry employee and ‘Strawberry Fire Fatality’ CRaP team leader Mike Dudley’s 72-hour report regarding Justin Beebe’s tragic death is only ‘MOSTLY accurate’?
What is in that report that ( according to YOU ) is already NOT accurate?
As for the second statement… my original question still stands.
Are you TRYING to tell us that SOMEONE actually TOLD you to not talk about the ‘Strawberry Fire’?
I’ll even drop the previous part of the question regarding wanting to know WHO it was that might have TOLD you that.
I’ll settle for you just CLARIFYING what you ( already ) said and telling us whether that statement of yours means someone DID ( specifically ) TELL you that you are ( your words ) “limited in what you can say”… or whether those are really just ‘self-imposed limitations’ and no one has actually TOLD you to “keep quiet”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Your mind us already made up on the matter.
Negatory, Batman.
I just “Want To Know The Truth”. It’s really a very SIMPLE concept.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Like I posted earlier, you always want more and more and more.
CLARITY and TRUTH?… you damn betcha.
Like “rain in a dry season” ( From ‘The Rainmaker’ by N. Richard Nash )
It is never ‘over the top’ to just ask someone who is choosing ( like you ) to VOLUNTEER ‘partial’ information for a little ‘clarity’.
So please just CLARIFY what you have already said in your original ( unsolicited ) statements.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The Strawberry Fire ‘Investigators ‘ have said their ‘goal’ is to have
>> a final report out by the end of November, once they clear it through
>> his family and the Forest Service.
>>
>> The family, ok. But why do we have to ‘clear it’ through an Agency first?
Because ( quoting Forest Gump, sorta )… CRaP is as CRaP does.
OFFICIAL U.S. FORESTRY DOCUMENT
At: The Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Title: Introducing the Coordinate Response Protocol
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=b5342ea7-e79c-39dd-8aae-3aaf37592e63%26forceDialog=1&usg=AFQjCNHaZEA8jWeAbER1v3ixo7KI5R3bPg&sig2=VhNCezp_QVPvOKM6lSI9NQ&bvm=bv.133700528,d.eWE
From that ‘official’ document…
———————————————————————————-
The CRP is designed, as much as possible, to make the ( investigation ) process as painless as
possible for all involved. One way to do this is to control access to our personnel.
The CRP and Learning Review are principle-based approaches, which are
designed to minimize the impact that reviews can have on the personnel who
were involved in the incident.
The process places PEOPLE FIRST and as a result, FAMILIES ARE BRIEFED as part of
the Learning Review process.
Learning Review Boards are opportunities to present the information to Senior
USFS Leadership, for THEIR APPROVAL of the reports, conclusions and learning products.
———————————————————————————-
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I mentioned that the 2015 Frog Fire Fatality report and the 2015 Twisp
>> Canyon Fire fatalities report were well over a year ago and long overdo and
>> the Strawberry Fire report will hopefully not fall into that category.
There is no reason to believe it will NOT ( fall into that category ).
That’s why it’s important to ‘know what happened’ as SOON as possible… because Mike Dudley is not going to give a shit about ‘timeframes’ OR ‘saving other lives’.
He has ALREADY demonstrated his LACK of concern for such things. ( Read the emails with his signature that are associated with the Yarnell Hill Investigation alone ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The Investigations should be independent and objective enough to be released
>> without being ‘approved.
I totally agree.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So, looks like we’ll have to patiently wait for the final report.
Who is ‘WE’?
See comment above. I believe it’s IMPORTANT to know AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE as SOON AS POSSIBLE… so that all possible steps can be taken to prevent it from happening again AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
It doesn’t take a YEAR to do some interviews.
So again I ask you… with regards to YOUR unsolicited, public statement…
“I will say that the 72-Hour Report is MOSTLY accurate.”
…what is it that CRaP team leader Mike Dudley is ALREADY ‘getting wrong’ and/or ‘misreporting’?
WTKTT,
You posted: “After recently just ‘jumping’ on here to VOLUNTEER the ‘information’ …”
Jumping on here? WTF is that about and is there something wrong with that?
And you and others don’t jump on here?
Unless you know something that the rest of us don’t, we all VOLUNTEER the information we have.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on September 26, 2016 at 9:37 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> You posted: “After recently just ‘jumping’ on here to
>> VOLUNTEER the ‘information’ …”
>>
>> Jumping on here? WTF is that about and is there something
>> wrong with that?
Just a ‘phrase’. Would ‘come on here’ have made you felt better?
And no… nothing wrong at all with ‘coming’ or ‘jumping’ or ‘posting’ or ‘arriving’ ( or whatever one might call it ) on here.
But once one ‘does’.. one should expect ‘questions’… especially if they are ‘hinting’ that they know things and only providing ‘partial’ information.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And you and others don’t jump on here?
I supposed it could be said that ANYONE who has ever ‘posted’ here has ‘jumped on here’. It’s just a phrase.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Unless you know something that the rest of us don’t, we
>> all VOLUNTEER the information we have.
Yes…. and that is exactly what you just ( recently ) did regarding the ‘Strawberry’ fire and the DEATH of first-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe.
And I was ‘asking you questions’ about the ‘partial information’ you provided. ( as you knew damn well I would ).
The beat goes on…
WTKTT,
You posted above to my post: “>> RTS also said… >> So, looks like we’ll have to patiently wait for the final report. >> Who is ‘WE’?”
Who else do you think WE is? WE!
WE WFF’s, WE here on IM, WE, the American public, WE, the global citizens, and last but not least, WE, the Intergalactic citizens.
Reposting this from above. The Strawberry Fire ‘Investigators ‘ have said their ‘goal’ is to have a final report out by the end of November, once they clear it through his family and the Forest Service.
I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they do not do so by the end of November, then I will pass along what I know of the incident.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
September 27, 2016 at 7:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Reposting this from above. The Strawberry Fire ‘Investigators ‘
>> have said their ‘goal’ is to have a final report out by the end
>> of November, once they clear it through his family and the
>> Forest Service.
>>
>> I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they do not
>> do so by the end of November, then I will pass along
>> what I know of the incident.
Fair enough. Thank you.
I’m still curious as hell what you ALREADY know which made you state that Mike Dudley’s 72-hour report is only ‘MOSTLY’ correct ( which implies you have already seen things in it that you KNOW are NOT correct )…
…but as long as we are in the “benefit of the doubt” zone… that 72-hour report itself DOES actually say “INFORMATION SUBJECT TO CHANGE”.
WTKTT said,
Rogers T ( Trueheart ) Brown
AFMO – Region 3 – Southwestern (Arizona, New Mexico)
R3, Coconino NF, Mogollon Rim RD
928-527-8245 x (phone)
928-527-8265 (fax)
I have been waiting for Bob (AKA RTS, AKA, Fred, AKA Richard Cranium) to weigh in on this since he knows Mr. True Brown (and all of the others Blue Ridge boys) quite well, but since he is being shy, I will jump in here .because, well…that is what I do.
FYI – I think there must be some confusion regarding the firefighter who was terminated and who is suing and True Brown. They can’t be the sames person. Mr. Brown is indeed still working on the Coconino National Forest and he has indeed been promoted up the FIRE food chain. He was probably a GS-7 as the Number 2 on the Blue Ridge Hotshots, but he is probably now a GS-9 as a District AFMO.
And just some minutiae for those inquiring minds who want to know. The USFS went through a “right sizing” starting in the early 1980’s and consolidated a number of national forests and individual districts on those national forests.
And since that is where I raised from a young lad to become a seasoned hotshot, I think I remember how it went on the Mighty Coconino. The old Flagstaff (home of the Flagstaff Hotshots) and the Mormon Lake Ranger Districts (former home of the Mormon Lake Hotshots) became the Peaks Ranger District (named after the San Francisco Peaks which is a dormant volcano that already blew up once but it was before my time).
The old Blue Ridge Ranger District (home of the Blue Ridge Hotshots) and the Long Valley Ranger District (former home of the Happy Jack Hotshots) became the Mongollon Ranger District (named after the Mongollon Rim that geologically separates the Colorado Plateau from the Sonoran Desert).
The old Beaver Creek Ranger District, which could have always been named the “Who Cares Ranger District” and the old Sedona Ranger District, which also could have been called the “Who Cares Ranger District #2, except for rich people who have property inside Oak Creek canyon and college students joined by everyone else who go to get drunk and piss and poop in Oak Creek so much Slide Rock has often closed in recent decades due to high levels of fecal coliform in the water. I think they are both now called the Below The Mongollan Rim So Who Cares Ranger District.
So…if you do the math here, True Brown was so highly thought of on his home district (just as I was when I was made an AFMO on the Santa Fe) he actually jumped over Brian Frisby (who is probably not interested in leaving his crew yet, or he would have already been promoted) and was promoted IN PLACE so he did not have to move, which is unusual in the federal government. Normally you have to move every time you get promoted, which is a really good reason NOT to want a promotion.
So…the bottom line is this. I can guarantee you True Brown is a highly respected and valued employee on the Mongollan Ranger District, Coconino National Forest. He isn’t talking to anyone they don’t want him to talk to and he has no reason to sue anybody for anything. He is a loyal company man who bleeds green…I am pretty damn sure. And he will probably be one until he takes his last breath…kind of like our now dearly departed Bob Powers.
As opposed to Bob (AKA RTS, AKA Fred, AKA Richard Cranium) who is now a rebel without a cause and a company man who still bleeds green on alternating days, who also used to work on another Below The Mongollon Rim So Who Cares Ranger District, Tonto National Forest (LMFAO…National Forest).
There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who used to work (or still do) ABOVE the Mongollon Rim, those who used to work (or still do) BELOW the Mongollon Rim…and everyone else.
Your welcome.
And FYI…for further clarification because I have noticed this fact has caused some confusion in the past on our (John Dougherty’s) little experiment in social media. There are actually TWO organizational structures that are often confused in play here..
So…just to be clear. There is always a Forest FIRE organizational structure and below that, there are always a District FIRE organizational structures.
There is always a Forest Fire Management Officer (even if they have collateral duties say…as the Timber Staff on smaller forests) and there are always District Fire Management Officers on every district.
I have never known of a District FMO to have collateral duties, but that probably happens somewhere on smaller districts that have small FIRE programs and say…a small Timber program.
There is not always either a Forest AFMO, nor are there always District AFMO’s, depending on the size and complexity of the job on those particular forests or districts.
So…is that clear as mud?
Here is your take-a-way again. True Brown who was promoted, Brian Frisby who is still running the Blue Ridge Hotshots and Cory Ball who was promoted into True Brown’s old job as Brian Frisby’s Number 2, (I think I have that right) are all old school card carrying members of an a special brotherhood…wildland FIRE, on top of USFS FIRE, and on top of that, Mighty Coconino National Forest FIRE and on top of all of that…Mongollon Ranger District FIRE.
Nobody has to order those guys to keep quiet…it’s in their DNA. The only problem would come IF someone ordered them to talk. That would be hard for them, keeping quiet on the other hand…comes natural to them.
You have to remember, unlike me, who was a media whore, the Blue Ridge Hotshots turned their backs to the media when they knew they were being photographed.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> Nobody has to order those guys to keep quiet…it’s in their DNA.
>> The only problem would come IF someone ordered them to talk.
>> That would be hard for them, keeping quiet on the other hand…
>> comes natural to them.
>>
>> You have to remember, unlike me, who was a media whore, the
>> Blue Ridge Hotshots turned their backs to the media when they
>> knew they were being photographed.
And somewhere in that ‘DNA’ and the vampire-like ‘no photographs please’ ( or maybe they just think they will lose their souls if they show up in a photo? ) lies the answer to the ‘mystery’ of WHY a movie that is already touting itself as the TRUE STORY of the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ had to change the NAME ( and ALL references ) to the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots”.
It remains totally ‘perplexing’ why either the USFS, or the ‘chain or ownership’ you describe above… or the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization itself ( or ALL of the above ) appears to have gone OUT OF ITS WAY to make SURE the actual ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization is NOT going to be ‘associated’ with this flag-waving ‘fillum’ in any way, shape or form.
I’m sure even Director Joseph Kosinski and Blacklabel Media Executive Producer Ellen Schwartz had their own respective and/or collective WTF moments when they got the ’email’ ( from WHO? ) that was REFUSING to give them permission to let the movie-going public know that an organization called “The Blue Ridge Hotshots’ even EXISTS… much less had anything to do with Yarnell.
It will be interesting when, just prior to the ‘fillum’s release ( like clockwork ), all the ‘actors’ will have to stop all the other projects they have moved on to and do the standad contractual ‘talk show’ rounds the week the ‘fillum’ is to be released.
If actor Rene Herrera ( who plays the equivalent of Brian Frisby for the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ in the ‘fillum’ ) goes on a talk show… I wonder what HE will say when one of the ‘interviewers’ asks him…
“So.. Rene… do YOU know why the REAL Hotshots who were REALLY in Yarnell along with Granite Mountain REFUSED to have anything to do with this ‘fillum’?
The only other ‘Blue River Hotshot’ that is know to be ‘appearing’ in the ‘fillum’ is Ethan Sinclair… the non-actor son of Eric Marsh’s old friend Alan Sinclair.
If he is asked the same question… what would HIS answer be?
Something like…
“I have no idea. My dad just got me the part in this thing.”
Gary and WTKTT,
Please remind me once again WHY I would want to open myself and others to your predictable ridicule, exposure, and other forms of harassment by telling you anything about anything anymore.
Your ‘history’ of posting to this ongoing discussion is the same now as it has always been. You come on here saying you ‘know things’… and then you EXPECT the rest of us to try and ‘guess’ what those ‘things’ are… because you are too afraid to FULLY ‘talk about it’.
So why don’t YOU ‘remind’ US why you play these ‘games’ of yours?
If YOU have no intentions of openly discussing the things you keep ‘hinting’ you know… they WHY do YOU make these ‘tease posts’ in the first place?
What is YOUR ‘agenda’?
I just got a call/text to read IM on my “pause”
I know your comment was to RTS…
I do not have an agenda nor angle wwtktt but to share MY journey from the day of the fire and thereafter
and I am one of the people that come here and say I know something but cannot speak due to my down right “fear” of the local crony and nepotism ways and it comes off like I type in circles…asking for missing elements to SPEAK UP….
and especially after seeing what happened from my foias to one “loyal” higher up in the firefighting industry I will not name ….
I can now comprehend some who do come here and express the best they know how or are capable of doing…
there is a one of a kind cultural system running through the firefighting industry that I am trying to not only figure out but make some changes…
I am very apologetic I am unable to present any and every detail
but can share to any of you if you get your own FOIA you can too know what I know…
but I only knew about FOIAS from Elizabeth Nowicki from Winter 2013
so all that area is just too WAY new for me and I do not know my legal rights within THIS county and STATE so I have no concerns to “guide” in what I see but I cannot be 100% pure and share it as I got it…”especially” hearing from Fall 2014 they have seeked to get me arrested some way some how…
I want to gain personal clarity to what bewildered me on both fires…but I cannot put myself in harms way for another to create and orchestrate…Sorry wwtktt…I am.
How can people feel free to express themselves best way they know how considering who they are and how they fit in the firefighting industry so I do not agree with Gary and WWTKTT on RTS-
I think RTS is important to be speaking best way he is able- He too lost some respect this 2016 from his peers for his engaging here at IM and that is wrong for folks to do that to RTS…and it was obvious how he was treated at that Spring event thing…RTS deserves to be treated well-
–otherwise I please state “pick me apart” for the things I am not capable or unable to state and it will not prevent me from coming here and sharing unless I am “blocked”-
but I am all for one expressing their frustrations because I get frustrated I cannot speak freely like I would like to on some areas…but I am fully aware there are people out there LOOKING to harm me…
–I am so very appreciative I have a place to work out my bewilderment—-
I think EVERY person’s information should be allowed and every person should do their own homework…like the more homework I do I am not sure the fella that was here was from entity alleged but who knows-
we treat folks the same…and that visit provided some important details and I cannot share it only because it is not MINE to share on something so serious on level hard to comprehend.
OPEN QUESTION addressed to ALL former AND active WFF’s, as well, any others (WTKTT, etc) who might care to comment… regarding “Safety Officer Job
Responsibilities” in general…
am I correct in assuming that those designated, credentialed and contracted to work on any given wildfire, as such… in order to perform their duties as REQUIRED… must always KNOW “what and where” the FIRE, itself, is doing at any given point in time?
For the sake of simplification, please, ignore all “other” indirect issues, such as snags and timber or vehicle-related or “other causes” accidents…
A 2nd question, directed PRIMARlLY at WTKTT…
“WTKTT, I realize, that we on this forum, have often brought up the topic of “backburns along and/or near the Shrine road and area” … BUT MY THOUGHTS, TODAY are concerning “backburns/burnout operation/back fire/etc., also, by any other name or description”… in general terms and, especially, with regards to their possible and specific use, at ANY time during the course of the YHF, from 28June thru early July, 2013… do you think and/or is there any site or source of information where YOU might apply your “wizardry skill-sets” in order to get-as-close-as-possible to a better understanding of “when-where-duration-length-width-location-intent-result” ANY AT ALL were considered and/or conducted… is there, otherwise, any actual statements of DENIAL of use or consideration of the same? Or you do not thought process that as a possibility by certain photos or videos at a certain hour?
thank you.
only asking because that was my area I lived through—- YHFires —-but in my investigation of MANY fires in modern history I DO see the INCREASED USE OF BACKBURNS/BACK FIRES/BURNOUT OPERATIONS/ETC or TREATMENTS on many-most-or-all modern wildfires so I am asking what was it you seem to have documented for those fires to compare to what I have was all…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
September 24, 2016 at 1:17 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I am asking what was it you seem to have
>> documented for those fires to compare
>> to what I have was all…
Joy… you make it sound like you believe I have been ‘researching backburns’ on fires other than the TWO ‘Yarnell’ wildfires.. 2013 and 2016.
I have not.
So I really can’t tell you whether ( historically speaking ) there is now some kind of INCREASED USE OF BACKBURNS in the WFF industry.
Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t have ‘the data’.
“Fighting FIRE with FIRE” is ( and always has been ) one of the ‘tools in the toolbox’ when it comes to trying to control Wildfires. Robbing a fire of FUEL is one of the ONLY ways to ‘control’ it and, indeed, make sure it ‘dies out’.
Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t.
Example: The CURRENT ‘Soberanes’ fire in ‘Big Sur’, which has now become the most EXPENSIVE Wildfire in US History.
The ‘Soberanes’ fire in the ‘Big Sur’ area of California ( the one where bulldozer operator Robert Reagan was killed back on July trying to get around an Engine that was in his way ) has been going on for more than TWO MONTHS now.
The fire began last July 22, with an illegal, unattended campfire.
As of four days ago ( September 20 ), it has already cost $208.4 million to fight and it is STILL an ‘ongoing incident’ with no full containment.
THOUSANDS of firefighters have worked this fire. Some crews have ‘come and gone and come back again’ many times and at one point this fire was costing 8 millions dollars a DAY in ‘Crew Salaries’ alone.
ThinkProgress.
Article Title: California fire becomes the most expensive in history. Firefighters have been battling the Soberanes Fire for two months.
Published: Yesterday ( September 23, 2016 ).
https://thinkprogress.org/california-fire-soberanes-most-expensive-805fafda4ab0#.95s9vcnm0
From that article…
————————————————-
Firefighters in California continue to battle the Soberanes Fire near Big Sur, which recently became the most expensive wildfire in United States history.
The blaze, which has been burning for almost two months, has cost $208.4 million to fight as of September 20, according to the Associated Press.
The fire began on July 22, with an illegal, unattended campfire. As of Friday, the fire was 71 percent contained. More than 2,000 firefighters are battling the fire.
The fire has become the most expensive in history due largely to the amount of time that it has burned, and the cost of paying firefighters to fight and contain the blaze on a daily basis. According to the Associated Press, the total cost does not include damage to structures or homes caused by the fire,
————————————————-
But even with all the ‘media coverage’ for THIS fire… I couldn’t even tell you how, why or when ‘backburns’ have featured into the TWO MONTHS worth of ‘trying to fight the fire’. Yes… I imagine they have done a LOT of ‘backburns’ trying to control this thing… and Yes… SOME of those might have actually CONTRIBUTED to the size and ( now ) the ‘duration’ of the fire itself… but that’s detail information that never seems to show up in any ‘media’ reports. I’m not sure that is information that would even be showing up in the ‘Incident Action Plans’ or the ‘Unit Logs’ if one were to even TRY and research the ‘use of backburns’ on even just this ONE ‘most expensive fire in history’ alone.
Are we looking at a case ( with the Soberanes fire ) whereby the ( probably MANY ) ‘burnouts’ they have been doing since day ONE to attempt to control the fire have done nothing but CONTRIBUTE to the size, complexity and the massive EXPENSE for this fire?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Joy, thanks for the support and understanding.
The ‘WFF Rules’ (Ten Standard FF Orders and the 18 Watch Out Situations) are the same for all of us. And they work every time, if and when you use them.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
September 24, 2016 at 12:58 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I know your comment was to RTS…
Yes, it was. He asked a direct QUESTION and I was responding to it.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I do not have an agenda nor angle wwtktt but
>> to share MY journey from the day of the fire
>> and thereafter
>>
>> and I am one of the people that come here and
>> say I know something but cannot speak due to
>> my down right “fear” of the local crony and
>> nepotism ways and it comes off like I type in
>> circles…asking for missing elements to SPEAK UP….
Yes, Joy. You have explained that many times.
However… it was ‘Robert the Second’ who ( specifically ) asked…
“Please remind me once again WHY I would want to open myself and others to your predictable ridicule, exposure, and other forms of harassment by telling you anything about anything anymore.”
And the only ANSWER to that specific question is…
“I don’t know. WHY have you ever been doing it in the first place?”.
Everyone knows that this ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) person is actually Fred Schoeffler… the FAMOUS former Hotshot Superintendent now ACTIVELY working as a ‘Safety Officer’ on Wildfire assignments.
‘RTS’ himself KNOWS that everyone KNOWS it is him.
He just told us ( with no solicitation on anyone’s part ) that he was a ‘Safety Officer’ at the ‘Strawberry’ fire where Justin Beebe was killed… and that he ( apparently ) knows enough about what happened that day to CONFIRM the recent ‘Status Update’ regarding this fatality coming from CRaP leader Mike Dudley…
…but then he ‘draws the line’ and says “I can’t say more”.
And he will not say WHY he ‘can’t say more’.
I asked him ( specifically ) WHO has TOLD him he is ‘not allowed to say more’… and now he ‘dodges’ even THAT question.
So you just have to wonder WHAT his real AGENDA is.
If he is ‘afraid’ he will start losing his double-dipping ‘Safety Officer’ assignments because someone finds out he is ‘posting’ to ‘media sites’ ( such as this one )… then I’ve got a news flash for this ‘Fred Schoeffler’.
That ship has sailed.
Everyone KNOWS it is HIM coming on here from time to time and ‘talking about things’.
And as far as I know… his continued ‘contributions’ have NOT stopped the ‘double-dipping’ gravy train for him and he CONTINUES to be hired as a ‘Safety Officer’.
So what is he actually AFRAID of?
Everyone ALREADY KNOWS it is HIM ( Fred Schoeffler ).
If he is so ‘afraid’ of telling things he knows for fear of being ‘black-balled’, or something… then why does he CONTINUE to come out of nowhere and “do it anyway”.
It has always been ( and remains ) ‘a mystery’ what Fred Schoeffler’s own AGENDA really is with regards to his continual posting on this PUBLIC forum.
Is he just trying to become another John MaClean and/or Ted Putnam… and save what he REALLY knows for some BOOKS he is planning on writing… or what?
Here’s his chance to ‘explain’… or to just do what I thought he had already decided to do many times over now ( never post here again ).
Is he just trying to become another John MaClean and/or Ted Putnam… and save what he REALLY knows for some BOOKS he is planning on writing… or what?
JOYS REPLY: in all my foias where RTS is in them I have no gut feeling RTS is aiming to be either John or Ted- Number one, hard to be a “copy” of Norman’s son; one of a kind special person John is and John reminds me of different ones in his ancestry but he is John not Norman but no way could anyone be like him…yet the commonality or core to Ted and RTS is “human factors” but not even the “same” there either…I do not see RTS as a person out to write a book but a man who with purity has been a part of the system for a long time and with these burnout operations his core to him has always been 10&18 and LCES at all times but even people in higher positions in firefighting industry have shared it is near impossible to follow the guidelines all of the time and on these modern fires so for the housewife hiker I interview and research and gather foias and try to see how it flows in that industry and it is spliced. RTS is just RTS…he has his beliefs and I like he is a firm believer because it makes me keep gathering and figuring out WHY and it makes me DO my homework on 10&18 and LCES and I asked alot of higher ups even one RTS knows and I wrote about that long ago and even that man felt it depended…and not always could be followed…
If I can FIND my cell I can look it up…but lost cell at 1pm..
Sonny was sitting on my cell-
so I found it to finish topic.
so on May 5, 2016 12:26pm a well respected fire industry man let’s say…named “Don” asked who I was first before answering my ?…I had wrote at 11:58am hundreds in the firefighter industry this question:
“Bob Powers discusses 10&18 and LCES alot on InvestigativeMedia; what does the 10&18 and LCES mean to you and your life. Is it a great contributing safety tool or is it bullshit to help higher ups hide behind it as a cover your own ass tool?
I asked this to very high ups to chiefs to etc…
Quickly I got this reply at 13:00pm from “Don”:
Hello Joy.
To say the 10 and 18 are BS is to discount how they came to be. When I started in the early 80’s in Hot Shot training, there were the 10 and 13. What does that mean? It means as an industry we made note of another 5 ways to injure or kill wildland firefighters. To say they are BS would also imply that if you ignored all of them and did the opposite, things would go better. I think we can agree that would not be the case, even to the most uneducated reader.
Can a wildland FF, squad boss, captain, sup, etc., ALWAYS follow the 10 and 18, every second, and take into consideration the Common Denominators? No it doesn’t. Many times in a career and fire fight, educated and experienced practitioners will have to weigh the risks of their tactics and strategies, and perhaps take an action that would, for a very short time, seem like it wasn’t exactly complying with all the 10, or seem to ignore one or more of the 18, but as professionals, we are paid to perform risk/benefit analyses in order to do our jobs. In my opinion, if everyone followed the 10 and 18, to the letter, all the time, we would have a really hard time fighting fires. Remember, the 18 are supposed to be “heads up” items. Pay attention- if this is happening things could go badly. Address them and remedy them. Why? Because they have been responsible for bad outcomes in the last. The 10 on the other hand are what we are supposed to do, all the time, every time. While you may not have obtained a forecast for a little while, you certainly should now if something is changing (hotter and drier, spots, not in communication with someone that can glue you that info- sound like the 18?). If fire behavior changes, could there be a brief time that there wasn’t complete control? Could the end of an IA shift of 18 hours cause a problem with “think clearly” or “stay alert”? Certainly. But as a rule, the 10 ARE rules , not suggestions, for the safety of our brothers and sisters on the line. And no, they are not some kind of safety net for supervisors. Supervisors should be working to make sure they are addressed and adhered to for the betterment of the profession and the fight. They are to keep firefighters safe- in a very unsafe environment.
My opinions only.
Joy, thanks for posting Don’s comments. They are absolutely spot on in my opinion.
sooo that is why I wrote the judges and the governor the other day…because there is not an equal comprehension of the 10&18 and LCES and it is spliced and we need better comprehension who is in charge training these newbies and it should not be spliced….it should be assertive and firm across the board and no wavering on the 10&18 and LCES if that is what keeps one ALIVE….that would be like me saying knowing God’s ways and America’s views commonly on “marriage” and trying to explain the understanding I have with Tex (Sonny/Charlie) on our path to my husband’s family and our long time friends…it is nothing uniformed about it and my taking time to explain it—it’s really like stepping into a twilight zone episode; “next stop will-a-bee”…and I would never want other people to think that “marriage” IS what I define it or am living…and so I now have seen the SAME across the board views on the 10&18 and LCES as I would talk “marriage and me”…not everyone believes like RTS or Bob but who is anyone to say what they firmly believe in is wrong…I have not stopped to do my homework even after 3 years…I believe in them enough to DO my homework and try to understand the think process on topic…now on WWTKTT without a doubt you amaze me…in a way I was directly wanting you to touch base on the YHF back fires and if anyone has understood what is IN the SAIR and what IS NOT in regards to the burnout operations done that weekend and on the Tenderfoot-
I know you are not a “gatekeeper” to all data but like you inquire on others- I felt it did not hurt to ask…and in my own way it was public circle talk from the shadows…that foots and leads to what I cannot talk about…like a guidance tool…I wish I could offer simple analysis of recent documents…I do wonder when I look over the financial accounting part if these fires MUST not be suppressed in order to keep that industry alive…like if you don’t spend the 4 billion annually on fires; like a USE IT or LOSE IT kinda thing…????
YHF was an unusual historical piece (killed 19…it was small in comparison to other fires…and robbed a tiny town of homes animals lives) when compared to fires you just mentioned Soberanes Fire near Big Sur, and other fires like that other one up North- was it Idaho or Oregon that Bob mentioned; Pioneer? those spent ALOT of funds but once the fella gets his documents to the RIGHT folks and it is officially public I do “feel” many a part of the firefighting industry will have to come to grisps and have a tough time not knowing the “bigger picture” that laid “quiet” all this time…but nothing new; this system since the start of its doors being open have done “quiet” things…we here at IM need to stick TOGETHER and not break one another down or apart because millions of people do not come here – just appx 30-55 hourly on average and WE ALL HERE will be a part of the SOLUTION to solve it in the end…so stay RTS and all…”please”…pauses are fine…I am doing it and I need to…but I got intel to look today on IM so I did…and nothing I say really matters except YOU ALL MATTER!
have a beautiful night!
Robert the Second says
On September 24, 2016 at 5:34 pm,
Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>> Joy, thanks for posting Don’s comments.
>> They are absolutely spot on in my opinion.
If you want to read more… those ‘Comments by Don’ that Joy just posted are just a reprint from the following discussion back in Chapter 21 of this ongoing discussion.
The actual ‘context’ was…
From the very start of Chapter XX1 ( 21 )… at the bottom of the page…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-334384
—————————————-
On May 5, 2016 at 12:07 pm, Joy A. Collura said…
This is what I sent many of battalion chiefs and higher ups just now…see how they reply-
Big discussion
What do the 10&18 and lces mean to you and your life
Is it a great contributing safety tool
Or is it a bullshit to help higher ups hide behind it as a cya…cover your own ass
Thanks
———————————–
Then there was this…
———————————-
On May 5, 2016 at 9:22 am, Joy A. Collura said…
awaiting to learn more on the 10&18…it appears something so golden is being tarnished and glazed as Donut called it…hillbilly…
———————————–
Then there was the ‘Response from Don’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-334394
———————————–
On May 5, 2016 at 1:37 pm, Joy A. Collura said…
One reply so far..see-
>> Hello Joy.
>>
>> To say the 10 and 18 are BS is to
>> discount how they came to be.
>> When I started in the early 80’s
>> in Hot Shot training, there were
>> the 10 and 13.
>>
>> ( snip – the rest is identical to above )
>>
>> My opinions only.
>>
>> Don
——————————-
‘Chapter 21’ then turned immediately to a lengthy discussion of public comments made by former Hotshot Superintendent Don Fesler ( who believes the entire SAIR was a coverup and that Jim Karels and Mike Dudley should (quote) “go down” for it )… but it was never fully established whether this Don Fesler was the same ‘Don’ who had responded to Joy’s query about the 10 and 18.
Herein lies the issue:
Don said (through Joy)
“Can a wildland FF, squad boss, captain, sup, etc., ALWAYS follow the 10 and 18, every second, and take into consideration the Common Denominators? No it doesn’t. Many times in a career and fire fight, educated and experienced practitioners will have to weigh the risks of their tactics and strategies, and perhaps take an action that would, for a very short time, seem like it wasn’t exactly complying with all the 10, or seem to ignore one or more of the 18, but as professionals, we are paid to perform risk/benefit analyses in order to do our jobs. In my opinion, if everyone followed the 10 and 18, to the letter, all the time, we would have a really hard time fighting fires.”
This opening sentence is interesting because he asks a question and answers it with “no it doesn’t.”
Firefighters not only cannot follow the 10 standard orders at all times, if they did, nothing would get done, according to Don. Also wrapped up in this explanation of the 10 & 18 is the notion that they must be followed/accounted for.
There are those that never look beyond violations of the 10 Standard Orders when reviewing fatality wildfires and won’t entertain the possibilities of causal factors outside of the broken rules. I’m interested in all the factors, both direct & indirect, so that learning from mistakes can be maximized preventing firefighter deaths in the future.
The above opinion of Woodsman is the super-friendly cuddly version of what I opined last night which was deleted. I guess my previous non-cuddly version was possibly ‘too edgy.’ It probably was.
Woodsman
Of course it’s entirely possible I simply screwed up my post last night & it didn’t ‘take’ & therefore wasn’t deleted for cause. Although I did see it so who the hell knows?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
September 24, 2016 at 12:58 pm
>> Joy A. Collura asked…
>>
>> A 2nd question, directed PRIMARlLY at WTKTT…
>>
>> “WTKTT, I realize, that we on this forum, have
>> often brought up the topic of “backburns along
>> and/or near the Shrine road and area” …
>> BUT MY THOUGHTS, TODAY are concerning
>> “backburns/burnout operation/back fire/etc.,
>> also, by any other name or description”… in
>> general terms and, especially, with regards to
>> their possible and specific use, at ANY time
>> during the course of the YHF, from 28June
>> thru early July, 2013… do you think and/or is
>> there any site or source of information where
>> YOU might apply your “wizardry skill-sets” in
>> order to get-as-close-as-possible to a better
>> understanding of “when-where-duration-
>> length-width-location-intent-result” ANY
>> AT ALL were considered and/or conducted…
>> is there, otherwise, any actual statements of
>> DENIAL of use or consideration of the same?
>> Or you do not thought process that as a
>> possibility by certain photos or videos at a
>> certain hour?
As someone who, I think it’s safe to say, is pretty familiar with the entire PUBLIC evidence record for the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… I believe I can say there is nothing in that ‘public’ evidence record which amounts to an actual DENIAL of there having been a ‘backburn’ set… when there is other evidence to prove that one WAS set.
Example: The burnout that took place as SPGS1 Darrell Willis’ ‘forces’ were told to finally ‘abandon’ the Double-Bar-A ranch.
No one ( not even Darrell Willis himself ) ever tried to DENY that this ‘burnout on exit’ took place, or that Darrell Willis himself did not ORDER it to take place.
And it wasn’t just the ‘Double-Bar-A’ Ranch area itself.
One of Aaron Hulburd’s 21 videos actually shows the forces ‘lighting up’ the entire SOUTH side of the access road to the ranch ‘on their way out’.
What has actually NEVER been established, however, is what happened AFTER that ‘burnout’… and whether or not those ‘manual ignitions’ themselves actually just ‘became’ the FIRELINE that would then be moving rapidly into the ‘Sickles Ranch Road’ area not too long AFTER those ‘burnouts’ took place.
In other words… was that entire ‘fire fighting’ effort there in the Sickles Ranch Road area ( which is what caused Planning OPS2 Paul Musser to ‘jump in’ on the fire as the SECOND fully functional Field OPS that afternoon ) basically just BECAUSE of the ‘manual burnouts’ that were executed earlier ( and just WEST of Sickles Ranch Road ) on Darrell Willis’ ORDERS?
And as for Saturday… ( June 29, 2013 )…
There is no real ‘evidence’ that even just that handful of FFs from the DOC Lewis crew that Shumate was able to ‘deliver’ up to the ridge were actually using an ‘burnouts’ at all on Saturday to try and ‘mop up’ the original lightning strike fire.
There is no question that there ended up being TWO actual ‘Yarnell Hill Fires’.
The FIRST one was the one that was ignited by the lightning strike… but was ‘ignored’ all of Friday evening and night.
It remained ( according to Yarnell Volunteer Firefighter Leroy Anderson ) “no bigger than a BUICK” most of the night.
PHOENIX – CBS 5
Article Title: Firefighter: We could have put out Yarnell Hill Fire on Day One
Published: Wednesday, February 26th 2014, 10:20 pm CDT
By: Morgan Loew
http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/24835120/firefighter-we-could-have-put-out-yarnell-hill-fire-on-day-one
———————————————
PHOENIX (CBS5) – A former Yarnell volunteer firefighter said it was possible to put out the deadliest wildfire in more than three decades, when it was still just a wisp of smoke. Meantime, CBS 5 Investigates found state dispatchers failed to call in some of the closest firefighters and equipment.
“We could have driven up part of the way and walked the rest of the way with shovels and a bucket of water in our hands,” said LeRoy Anderson, who was a volunteer firefighter with the Yarnell Fire Department on June 28. That was the day a lightning strike started the Yarnell Hill Fire.
“The fire, for basically the whole night, was the size of a Buick. It wasn’t very big at all,” said Anderson.
Anderson told CBS 5 Investigates he did not see an urgency to put out the flames, on the part of the Yarnell Fire Department.
“There were convenient reasons not to go. Let’s put it that way,” said Anderson.
—————————————–
And it was that FIRST ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’, ignited by the lighting strike itself, that 6 members of the Lewis DOC Crew ( plus Helitack Nate Peck ) were fighting ALL DAY on Saturday.
And there is still NO REASON that FIRST Yarnell Hill Fire there around that original lightning strike should NOT have been completely contained and controlled by Arizona Forestry’s Russ Shumate and the 40 firefighters he had there in Yarnell all day Saturday ( plus a ‘bucker ready’ helicopter ).
The SECOND ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ is the one that STARTED when that ‘unburned pocket of fuel’ there withing the ‘perimter’ of the original fire ‘flared up’ and ‘jumped across the two track’.
That SECOND ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ ( the one that ‘escaped’ from the original containment lines on Russ Shumate’s watch ) is the one that would go on to cause all the destruction and the tragedy the next day.
I still believe that ‘escape’ took place WHILE that yellow/white BLM Helicopter N14HX was delivering those ‘bladder bags’ to the Lewis Crew and was ‘hovering’ directly OVER the still-active part of the fire there on that ridge.
I believe the ‘rotor wash’ taking place during that ‘jover over the active fire’ operation is what probably CAUSED the ‘flare up’ which would then ‘escape’ over the eastern containment line ( the two-track road itself ).
However… that being said… there has ALWAYS also been a chance that this ‘escape’ took place WHILE some members of the Lewis Crew were attempting to do a ‘manual burnout’ on that area of ‘unburned fuel’ there along the eastern containment line.
No one has ever testified that this is what they were doing… or that this ‘burnout’ operation is what led to the ‘escaped fire’ itself… but it has always remained a possibility.
SIDENOTE: We have never known WHO the PILOT of the N14HX Helicopter was either on Saturday OR on Sunday… and he was NEVER interviewed by ANYONE.
And as for the ongoing ‘possibility’ of a ‘manual burnout’ there near Shrine Road on the next day… Sunday…
There really is still nothing in the ‘public’ evidence record to suggest anything like that ever actually happened.
TFLD(t) Trainee Tyson Esquibel, who was working for SPGS1 Gary Cordes and in charge of those ‘forces’ there in the Shrine Road and the ‘Youth Camp’ areas DID testify that he had THOUGHT about ‘burning out’ the Youth Camp area and parts of the unimproved Shrine Road area “on their way out” ( as they were all evacuating circa 4:15 PM )…
…but Tyson Esquibel also testified that it did NOT happen because there simply wasn’t TIME to do it.
The fire was already ‘coming over the ridge’ and ‘spotting’ all over the place and it was simply just time for ALL of those firefighters to get the hell out of that area.
So even Esquibel says there were no ‘manual burnouts’ initiated along Shrine Road… at least not by any ‘forces’ that he was in command of.
As I have said about a dozen times already… I am not totally ‘discounting’ the possibility there SOMEONE might have initiated SOME kind of ‘manual burnout’ in a last-ditch effort to protect SOME part of Yarnell ( or Glen Ilah ) proper…
…but there is STILL nothing ( that I know of ) in the ‘public evidence record’ to prove that anything like that took place.
WTKTT,
My agenda? I used to think it was the same as yours. Ya know, like finding out ‘the truth’ about what happened and why on the YH Fire.
That’s still my agenda, along with other WF incidents and events as they develop.
But your ‘agenda’ has gone over the top as far as I am concerned, wanting to know every little bit of detail and meaningless minutiae about people’s personal and private lives and so much more.
It’s become like a shark feeding frenzy with several of you attacking those that don’t quite agree with you and certainly those that don’t and won’t give you everything you want.
You posted that I was “too afraid to FULLY ‘talk about it’.”
Negative, see above, including your response to Joy, which verifies what I posted. .
I am NOT willing to betray that kind of information about those that I know and trust.
Here’s one of your posts based on pure conjecture, not based on fact at all.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-347606
It matters not what I post because you are never satisfied. You always want more and more and more. It’s over the top.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
September 24, 2016 at 3:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> My agenda? I used to think it was the same as yours.
>> Ya know, like finding out ‘the truth’ about what
>> happened and why on the YH Fire.
It certainly remains MY agenda.
Everything you need to know about me is in the HANDLE I have ALWAYS used to contribute to this ongoing ‘public’ discussion about a National, Historic TRAGEDY.
I “Want To Know The Truth”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> That’s still my agenda, along with other WF incidents
>> and events as they develop.
Well.. I, for one, am not sure that really ever HAS been ‘your agenda’.
Sometimes it SEEMS to be… but other times… not so much.
I still remember the ‘games’ you played when you first started posting and you were just playing some kind of ‘Pokemon GO’ game regarding the Blue Ridge Hotshots with your “you’re getting WARMER… keep digging” style posts.
And that hasn’t changed much since even those first ‘posts’ of yours.
It’s always some kind of bullshit game of “Here’s a little bit of information… now see if you can GUESS the rest”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> But your ‘agenda’ has gone over the top as far
>> as I am concerned, wanting to know every little
>> bit of detail and meaningless minutiae about
>> people’s personal and private lives and so
>> much more.
A long, long time ago… when people like YOU started posting here and playing your “You’re getting WARMER!” style ‘games’… it became obvious that a “No detail is too small” approach to the ‘evidence’ that was becoming available was going to be the only way to get the cows into the barn.
And that approach has been SUCCESSFUL.
If it had not been for our “attention to detail and minutiae”… a LOT of things that are now known to be TRUE about what happened in Yarnell would STILL not be known at all.
Just ONE example: WE are the ones who ( by paying attention to detail and what you call ‘minutiae’ ) were able to PROVE that Brendan McDonough pretty much MUST have heard more ‘radio transmissions’ than he had admitted to hearing to no less than TWO sets of ‘investigators’.
And WE were RIGHT.
He DID hear MORE… and in the exact timeframes that we had already PROVED he MUST have ‘heard more’. That ‘story’ isn’t even over yet. Brendan McDonough has STILL not fully ‘come clean’ with regards to all of that.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It’s become like a shark feeding frenzy with several
>> of you attacking those that don’t quite agree with
>> you and certainly those that don’t and won’t give
>> you everything you want.
That is YOUR perception of the situation… because YOU have set YOURSELF up as the ‘poster child’ for people who keep coming on here ‘hinting’ that you ‘know things’… but never fully explaining WHY you won’t freely talk about them.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You posted that I was “too afraid to FULLY ‘talk about it’.”
>> Negative, see above, including your response to Joy,
>> which verifies what I posted. .
>> I am NOT willing to betray that kind of information
>> about those that I know and trust.
Well… then that really is still “being afraid”, isn’t it?
You are ‘afraid’ of SOMETHING… I’m just still not quite sure what.
These ‘people’ that you are so ‘afraid’ to ‘betray’ ( your word )… are they all fully aware that you still keep coming on here and ‘almost’ talking about things they tell you, anyway, and that everyone KNOWS you are really ‘Fred Schoeffler’?
If you are ‘so afraid of betraying them’… why do you even come on here with your “You’re getting WARMER” style posts?
Aren’t even THOSE kinds of posts causing these ‘people’ some consternation?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Here’s one of your posts based on pure conjecture,
>> not based on fact at all.
>>
>> http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-
>> yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-347606
>>
>> It matters not what I post because you are never
>> satisfied. You always want more and more and
>> more. It’s over the top.
I want the TRUTH.
You keep coming on here ‘hinting’ that you ‘know things’.
So yea… I’m gonna keep asking YOU questions.
To that end… let me ask you one more time ( and this is not over the top at all. It is a ‘logical followup’ to what you yourself are now freely ‘reporting’ ).
WHO IS IT that has specifically TOLD you not to talk about the ‘Strawberry Fire’, and the circumstances surrounding the DEATH of First-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe?
I don’t think anyone actually DID.
I think you are just ‘saying that’.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Well… then that really is still “being afraid”, isn’t it?” and “You are ‘afraid’ of SOMETHING… I’m just still not quite sure what.”
That’s your opinion. I call it being loyal and not wanting to betray those I trust.
You posted: “WHO IS IT that has specifically TOLD you not to talk about the ‘Strawberry Fire’, and the circumstances surrounding the DEATH of First-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe? … I don’t think anyone actually DID. … I think you are just ‘saying that’.”
Conjecture on your part and your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to. Why would I make something like that up? You’re basically insinuating that I am a liar, and I certainly do not appreciate that.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
September 24, 2016 at 5:43 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted: “Well… then that really is
>> still “being afraid”, isn’t it?” and “You
>> are ‘afraid’ of SOMETHING… I’m just
>> still not quite sure what.”
>>
>> That’s your opinion. I call it being loyal
>> and not wanting to betray those I trust.
More deflection.
In the case of your recent posting… you ‘informed’ us all that YOU ( yourself ) were THERE on the Strawberry fire and working ‘Division T’ YOURSELF when first year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe was killed.
So this one isn’t about what OTHERS know.
This go-around is more about about what YOU ( seem ) to know.
Firsthand.
You said…
“I will say that the 72-Hour Report is MOSTLY accurate.”
Notice that even YOU took the time to CAPITALIZE the word ‘MOSTLY’.
Your statement implies that you ( yourself ) already know that SOME of the information in Mike Dudley’s updated 72-hour report is NOT accurate.
So what do you mean by “MOSTLY accurate”?
What is it in that 72-hour report that you already KNOW is “NOT accurate”?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You posted: “WHO IS IT that has
>> specifically TOLD you not to talk
>> about the ‘Strawberry Fire’, and
>> the circumstances surrounding the
>> DEATH of First-year Lolo Hotshot
>> Justin Beebe? … I don’t think anyone
>> actually DID. … I think you are just
>> ‘saying that’.”
>>
>> Conjecture on your part and your
>> opinion, which you are certainly
>> entitled to. Why would I make
>> something like that up?
>> You’re basically insinuating that I
>> am a liar, and I certainly do not
>> appreciate that.
Then just answer the question.
You have already stated…
“I am very limited in what I am ‘allowed’ to say because I was involved, albeit tangentially.”
That IMPLIES that you have been TOLD ( by SOMEONE ) not to talk publicly about the circumstances of Justin Beebe’s DEATH.
So… is that TRUE?
Did SOMEONE tell you… “not to talk about it”… or are you just deciding NOT to do that on your OWN?
These are not ‘over the top’ questions.
They are logical ‘followup’ questions to things you have already posted.
WTKTT,
Like I already posted, I have no reason to lie yet you imply and inside uate that I am a liar and/or that I lied about my comments on the Strawberry Fire.
You even conjured up the imaginary
interview with Dudley.
They are not ‘logical followup questions.’
I consider them invasive.
Your mind us already made up on the matter.
Like I posted earlier, you always want more and more and more.
The Strawberry Fire ‘Investigators ‘ have said their ‘goal’ is to have a final report out by
the end of
November, once they clear it through his family and the Forest
Service.
I mentioned that
the 2015 Frog Fire Fatality report and the 2015 Twisp Canyon Fire fatalities report were well over a year
ago and long overdo and the Strawberry Fire
report will hopefully not fall into that category.
The family, ok. But why do we have to ‘clear it’ through an Agency first?
The
Investigations should be independent and objective enough to be released without being ‘approved.
So, looks like we’ll have to patiently wait for the final report.
OK, Fred…that you asked a serious and very thoughtful question so I am going to give you a serious and thoughtful response. I am tired of you jerking me off so I don’t care whether you leave or stay. If you stay…I get to fuck with you, if you leave…you won’t aggravate me anymore. So your continued participation here is a toss-up for me, which is more or less what I told your parrot…Feisty Bob, a long time ago.
And I hope Feisty Bob is really gone this time. He was useful to this thread when we had some fire line information to analyze, but we haven’t had any for months, so Feisty Bob outlived his usefulness a long time ago. And besides that, when he jerked me off he pulled too hard, you on the other hand (the other hand…get it?) are a much gentler manipulator and you use a fragrant lube.
I’m sure there are some people who are interested in your quote of the day or some obscure article or study that relates in general to the topics that interest you, but I find them even more boring and pointless than you find my stupid videos…if you have ever even watched one.
This thread stopped being about the Yarnell Hill Fire a long time ago while we went into a holding pattern waiting for Joy’s secret sources to come forward, reveal themselves and tell us the rest of the story. But I gave up on waiting for that to happen a long time ago.
Now I just come here out of habit because I continue to be amazed by WTKTT’s spooky ability to research and analyze raw information about related topics. And I like to read the sarcastic, witty and insightful posts by the Woodsman, who reminds of me when I was a lot more positive and idealistic person. My God help him make it to the end of the long dark tunnel and into the light.
After three years, we (and the world in general) have morphed into three camps regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy in very broad and generalized categories.
1. There are the families, friends and loved ones of the GMIHC who believe an act of God killed them and the Yarnell Hill Fire was his weapon of choice. They believe the crew didn’t do anything wrong…it’s just that God needed them for another project other than living full and happy lives here on this earth with those who love them…and raise their children in the process.
2. There is the wildland firefighting community of which you and your parrot Feisty Bob are part of, which concluded a long time ago that Marsh and Steed fucked up and the crew followed them so they fucked up as well and everything that happened to them as a result of these fuck-ups is on them. End of [your] story, let’s move on and get ready for the next fire…or conference where you can have a circle jerk and tell each other how fuckin’ AMAZING all of you really are.
3. Finally, there are the rational people of this world of which WTKTT, the Woodsman and I am part of. We believe the answers are complex as opposed to the overly simplistic theories embraced by the “God had a different plan for those men” and your camp, “Those men deserved what they got because they didn’t follow the 10 and the 18.”
The reasons I think you are a Richard Cranium is because you know everything that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire because Frisby, Brown, and Ball among many others have told you everything that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And rather than share that information so it can be properly analyzed by those who have open minds and the ability to do so and who are not beholden to and part of the wildland industrial fire firefighting complex for their livelihood, identity, self worth, friends, and standing within their social group in addition to their supplemental retirement plan, you guard it as your proprietary information.
In other words, I respect who you were once upon a time, but not who you are now. You…Mr. Richard Cranium are a DICK HEAD because you are contributing to the deaths of wildland firefighters in the future rather than helping to change the future for the better. And rather than really being the smartest man in the room, no matter which room you are in, you are nothing more than a…fill in the blank. I am out of adjectives to describe you.
I feel that I am qualified to make this assessment because I was presented with the same choice you made, except I made the right one. You know that I was part of the inside circle when this thread started due to my background as a hotshot crew boss. However, I made it clear from the beginning that I had a policy of being open and transparent and that in fact, I didn’t even want to know anything that I could not share with the people who used to pay my salary and continue to support my retirement…so I was cut out of the loop which is fine with me. Fuck all of you and a pox on your houses (Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet)
Do you have any more questions?
Gary, no more questions, just comments.
You and WTKTT are completely off track on what I know from the BRHS or anyone else about the YHF.
And who, besides yourself, made you the High and Mighty Arbiter and Gatekeeper of this site? NOBODY!
It’s too bad that you feel good about running people off from here because they disagree wit you or don’t tow the Olson Party Line. The traits of a bully as far as I’m concerned.
EVERY THINK is an Act of God, including what occured on June 30, 2013. It amazes me how you cherry pick what you want to attribute to and believe about God.
Your comment about waiting for Joy to reveal things reminds me of the vultures just hanging out on a limb waiting to kill something or something to die.
Well…you have a pretty good idea of what it would be like to be interviewed by me in an investigation. I was taught (at FLETC) to role play and use as many tactics as it takes to get at the truth.
Befriend, cajole, beg, bully, threaten, lie, minimize, maximize, play good guy, play bad bad, play good guy and then play bag guy playing good guy. I was pretty good at it. But you are a pretty tough nut to crack…and I do mean nut.
In my defense however, if we were in a room together and I still had the power of the US. government behind me and the complete tool box I had when I was on the job was still at my disposal, this investigation would have been over a long time ago and I would know everything you know
But like you have said before, I should wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first. I just wish someone in the U.S. congress gave a shit about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire to our crew.
You and your buddies need a really good bitch (non-gender specific) slappin’ and some civilian oversight. You (the wildand firefighting complex) have been getting away with too far much for far too long.
Clarification…no waterboarding though. Seriously folks…I would not even bother to interview RTS, he doesn’t know anything someone who works for the government didn’t tell him. He doesn’t have any first hand knowledge of anything pertaining to the YHF.
There is a very simple and very basic tool in any investigators tool box when dealing with government employees that I discussed in detail more than 2 years ago.
It is called a “Garrity Warning/Waiver.” I would start by calling Frisby, Brown and Ball into Mongollon Ranger Station conference room after ordering their district ranger and supervisor to call them in from the field or their normal duties without warning.
They would be handed a Garrity Warning and a few minutes later they would start talking and not stop until they were finished telling me everything they knew about everything that happened on the YHF and answered everyone of my questions. And then I would move on to the next one on my list.
As WTKTT said a long time ago…none of this is rocket science.
Oh…and one more thing. It is a LITTLE more complicated than that. If you know or discover anyone who you think might be guilt of a criminal act…they never get the chance to sign a Garrity Warning, you simply work around them and save them for last.
And then they get a Miranda Warning followed by a Target Letter from the U.S. Attorney’s Office telling them that their nice life as they know it…is over.
Well…there is one more little thing. If any of you fire folks out there have any more questions, contact Van Bateman (who I used to work with when he was the Flagstaff Hotshot Crew Boss) and ask him how it works. He knows all about it..
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/wtc-hero-flames-article-1.219508
Van Bateman said…
—————————————–
“I wasn’t trying to start an arson fire,” he told the Republic. “I was just trying to clean this piece of country up …. I would be shocked if there’s anybody who’s spent their career in forest management who hasn’t done this.”
“The line between a good fireman and an arsonist is a fine line,” Bateman told investigators.
——————————————
The article doesn’t say how they actually CAUGHT Bateman.
And sometimes… it’s just about the
$$$$ MONEY $$$$
An article that appeared just yesterday…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Tribal fire chief set fires the department was paid to fight
Published: YESTERDAY ( Sep. 24, 2016 )
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/09/24/tribal-fire-chief-set-fires-the-department-was-paid-to-fight/
——————————————
The former chief of the Kickapoo Tribal Volunteer Fire Department in Kansas was indicted Wednesday on federal charges of setting fires the tribe was paid to fight, Acting U.S. Attorney Tom Beall said. Also indicted was a former volunteer firefighter.
Stephen D. Ramirez, 26, of Horton, Kansas, former chief, and Arlene M. Negonsott, 34, also of Horton, Kansas, are charged with four counts of wire fraud. The indictment alleges Ramirez recruited Negonsott, a volunteer firefighter, to set fires on the Kickapoo Reservation from July to November 2015 that the Kickapoo fire department was called to fight.
The Kickapoo Tribe in Kansas contracted with the Bureau of Indian Affairs to provide fire suppression services on the reservation. The contract called for the bureau to pay the tribe $600 for each fire it fought.
The indictment alleges the defendants set SIX FIRES on the reservation.
If convicted, the defendants face up to 20 years in federal prison and a fine up to $250,000 on each count. The U.S. Department of Interior – Office of Inspector General, the Kickapoo Tribal Police and the FBI investigated.
——————————————
I didn’t intend to get into a discussion on specific investigative techniques, that wasn’t the point I was trying to make although Van knows how he was caught, he and his attorney would have had the entire case report and would have known everything the government knew.
The point I was trying to make is that not all fire fighters are heroes, nor are all Boy Scout Master NOT pedophiles. And I was simply trying to remind all of the fire folks that they are not immune from the law or untouchable.
There was no wildland firefighter in the nation during Van Bateman’s reign as a Type I Incident Commander who was more famous, powerful, respected, admired and connected than Van was.
IF there are WF who were on the YHF who crossed the line or have since covered up the fact that others crossed the line, they had better worry about it until the statute of limitations has expired and as far as their career goes, they need to worry a lot longer than that.
Somebody who has the power to unleash the attack dogs…just might do it. If the Families of the 19 cared as much as they say they do, that would have already have happened.
And then I wouldn’t have had to needle RTS, who shouldn’t even matter in this equation since he doesn’t have any first hand information.
Oh…and one more thing. Van Bateman didn’t need the money nor did his hotshot crew, the entire country was their area of operation.
I personally think Van set those fires because he is a good old fashioned pyromaniac. I say “is” because that is something not even 2 years in federal prison can cure…it just makes you stop doing setting fires or makes you be a lot more careful where and how you set fires.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromania
I mean…Winona Ryder didn’t shop lift because she couldn’t afford to buy the items she stole….right? She is a kleptomaniac, which is an impulse control disorder and a mental illness.
wtktt said:
“The article doesn’t say how they actually CAUGHT Bateman.”
Tracking device. We use them……oops, I mean ‘they’ use them when sufficient probable cause exists and it’s not a wild guess either.
Big G is correct in his analysis of Bateman. In a shout-out to my favorite fruitcake, he’s ‘spot on.’
Woodsman
Clarification – The point I was trying to make is that Van Bateman was called into the office (according to one of the articles I read) and confronted with what he had done and he confessed.
Now…that is comparing apples to oranges a little bit, but it actually makes my point even better. Van confessed and he was the target of the investigation and was not given a Garrity Warning, he was given a Miranda Warning.
Just imagine what the average government employee does when they are given a Garrity Warning. They then have a very clear choice. Truthfully answer all of the questions they are asked, like, “tell me everything you know about the Yarnell Hill Fire starting at the very beginning.” And then answer all of my follow up questions. Or lose their jobs.
Everyone has a constitutional right against self-incrimination but no one has a constitutional right to keep their job with the government while withholding information from the government.
That is what a Garrity Warning does, it gives the recipient immunity from prosecution for what they say, but they have to truthfully answer the questions they are asked. That is why the target of the investigation is NOT given a Garrity Warning; they are given a Miranda Warning.
Frisby, Brown, Ball and everyone else who was on that fire and might know what went wrong and why should have been called in by USFS or USDA Special Agents a long time ago and given either a Garrity or a Miranda Warning.
Why didn’t that happen? Because this is one giant fucking government cover up and no one is holding them accountable except for those of us on this thread but we don’t count because we don’t have standing in this case like the families of the crew would have…or did have once upon a time.
WTKTT,
Wildland Fire Arson is nothing new on Indian Reservations. Some of them even claim it is a ‘cultural’ thing.
And statistically, since the early 1970’s, 80% (or more) of Wildland Arson Fires are committed by wildland firemen, former and/or used to wildland firemen, wanna-be wildland firemen, disgruntled wildland firemen.
Gary,
You posted: “… RTS, … doesn’t know anything someone who works for the government didn’t tell him. He doesn’t have any first hand knowledge of anything pertaining to the YHF.”
On the first point, where did you come up with that gem? So, the only knowledge and information I know came from “someone who works for the government?”
And please enlighten me how you came to that conclusion.
On the second point, NOBODY here, and that includes YOU, has first hand knowledge of the YH Fire, except for Tex and Joy.
Gary,
You posted: “3. Finally, there are the rational people of this world of which WTKTT, the Woodsman and I am part of. We believe the answers are complex as opposed to the overly simplistic theories embraced by the “God had a different plan for those men” and your camp, “Those men deserved what they got because they didn’t follow the 10 and the 18.””
So then, besides yourself, who chose you and WTKTT and Woodsman to be the High and Mighty “rational people” on this site?
And I NEVER posted “Those men deserved what they got because they didn’t follow the 10 and the 18.”
I did post that they died as a result of NOT abiding by the 10 and recognizing, heeding, and mitigating the 18 – many times.
They have always worked and will continue to work as long as you utilize them. There are tens of thousands of WFF’s every single fire season that are testimony to that FACT.
The answers you seek are only complex to you, so that you, the self-identified elite, can continue to rant and rave about ‘others’ responsible for what the GMHS overhead was responsible for – THE SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THOSE THEY SUPERVISED.
Big G,
Interesting insights. Tell me about the Tonto ‘National Forest.’ What’s so funny about it? No trees? Is it a National Forest without actual trees? Does the staff pass the time between fires doing yoga under the shade of cacti & shrubs? Thanks in advance. I’ve never been there.
Woodgrain
Yes, the Tonto National Forest (Forest…hee, hee, hee) is made up almost entirely of the Sonoran Desert (which can be nice if you like to be surrounded by flora and fauna that will hurt and maybe even kill you, if the heat doesn’t get you first.
But it IS a dry heat…kind of like an OVEN. The area is an acquired taste desired by Desert Rats, Canadians on the run from sub zero temperatures, golfers and those who like to clean swimming pools.
It’s really too cold to swim in them for 9.5 months a year, even in Phoenix, because of the cold night air, but it is never to cold to clean or add chemicals to them. In addition, the region is also inhabited by others…almost all undesirables and miscreants.
The Payson Ranger District, where Bob, AKA RTS, AKA Fred, AKA Richard Cranium worked, has SOME trees, but is mostly made of the transition zone between the desert and the forest…as a result, it is neither one. That is because.it is comprised of the bad parts of both the desert and the forest. AS a result…that region/zone really sucks, but some misfits do find gainful employment in the area who would otherwise be unemployable.
And yes…I am bored tonight. I am out of material to make stupid videos about the Oregon Dunes,…but check out the ones I have made up to this point…I need the hits.
http://oregondunes.com/
I have also been updating my website, which is really bitchin’…already. With some really good tunes embedded. The big music companies can’t sue me for copyright infringement because I don’t have much. You can’t get blood out of a turnip LMFAO!.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I have also been updating my website, which is really bitchin’…already.
Tá tú i gcónaí chun grá cúlra réalta bitchin
Translation: You ALWAYS have to LOVE a ‘bitchin’ STAR background.
Yes…and they TWINKLE! What does a twinkling background with a bright blinking star right next to the tool bar have to do with the Oregon Dunes?
Have you ever heard of a little company (http://www.polaris.com/en-us/atv-ranger-rzr)…called Polaris…which is the star designated Alpha Ursae Minoris (α Ursae Minoris, abbreviated Alpha UMi, α UMi), commonly the North Star or Pole Star, is the brightest star in the constellation of Ursa Minor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris
Once Polaris starts sponsoring my website…you will know why I like twinkling stars so darn much..
Charge them a fee for EACH ‘Star’ displayed.
Cha-Ching.
Oh…and one more thing. Polaris puts 1000 cc TURBO charged engines in their machines…so, I will be able to go FASTER and climb HIGHER.
If the sand dune is too high…you’re too old or too timid!
Yes Brown is a common name–but this brown was in some type supervisory position on the Yarnell Fire. Joy spoke directly to him and so she knows this to be a fact and a fact this person is suing. Now I don’t know if these suits are public information, but perhaps his first name can be gotten from that information. I asked Joy if she got his first name, she said no. Reading what WTKTT want to know from RTS about the Strawberry fire, I understand how touchy it is speaking your mind if you are a wild land fire fighter. These fellows are under strict mum orders and if they do speak out they risk loosing a minimum of face and a maximum of being dumped –something that can hurt if you have been at it for some time and enjoy it. I know this because after being busted up in a mine cave in and a botched operation on my back where the young doc opened up the wrong vertebre (he was practicing still and had not learned the different sections of the spine I suppose–but he did apologize) –that ended my mining career–You can’t be hired with the big boys in mining since they always require a physical and a six inch scar down the middle of your back sends you packing. You are then blackballed from any mine job–and it is useless to even try to get a broom pushing job in a mine after that.–But logging does not need a physical–so Brown might try that.
**
** NEWS REPORTS ABOUT LAST WEDNESDAY’S ‘ORAL ARGUMENTS’
** IN THE YARNELL PROPERTY DAMAGE LAWSUITS APPEAL
The Arizona mainstream media gave Wednesday’s ‘Oral Arguments’ in the appeal of all 135+ consolidated Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits a clear miss…
…but the Associated Press ( and radio station KJZZ-FM ) did NOT.
No word on when a ‘ruling’ will ( now ) be made, and whether or not the 135+ plaintiffs will even be allowed to have their constitutional right to a ‘day in court’… but here’s at least a hint at what ‘Oral Arguments’ were made by each side last Wednesday.
No real surprises here ( with regards to the ‘short’ Oral Arguments ).
Attorneys for the ‘defendant’ ( State of Arizona ) are still basing their entire defense on the argument that Arizona State Forestry NEVER had ( and, indeed, NEVER has ) even one single atomic molecule of ‘responsibility’ to EVER lift a finger to ‘protect’ any ‘private property’… or to even WARN private citizens when they should ‘evacuate’ an area… even when they are ‘in charge’ of fighting any particular fire.
Attorneys for the ‘plaintiffs’ ( 135+ individual Yarnell Property owners ) are still basing THEIR ‘argument’ on the standard ( legal ) “assumption of responsibility” concept, which says that once you ASSUME ‘responsibility’… you are legally bound to show ‘competence’ and not just exhibit total ‘incompetence’ and ‘negligence’.
The Roanoke Times ( Reprinting an Associated Press article )
Article Title: Appellate court considers allowing Yarnell homeowners to sue
Published: Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:52 pm
Updated: 1:15 pm, Thu Sep 22, 2016.
By: The Associated Press
http://www.roanoke.com/news/virginia/wire/appellate-court-considers-allowing-yarnell-homeowners-to-sue/article_c82128e2-736c-55c2-b28b-d4dec68c112a.html
From that article ( which mentions the KJZZ FM article )…
————————————————————————————-
PHOENIX (AP) — Attorneys for Yarnell residents who lost their homes in a 2013 wildfire are asking the Court of Appeals to allow their clients to sue the state.
KJZZ-FM reports ( http://bit.ly/2creEPS ) that previously homeowners sued the state Forestry Division, but a trial judge dismissed the case concluding the state had no duty to protect the residents’ property click_here
At a hearing Wednesday an attorney for the state said Arizona is not responsible for protecting everyone who chooses to live adjacent to wilderness.
Plaintiffs’ attorney David Abney says that since the state fought the fire, it voluntarily agreed to try to protect Yarnell. Abney wants the appellate court to give his clients a chance to make their case to a jury.
The 2013 Yarnell wildfire killed 19 firefighters and burned more than 120 homes.
————————————————————————————-
And here is the KJZZ-FM article being referenced in the ‘Associated Press’ article…
KJZZ – 91.5 FM
Article Title: Attorney Asks Court To Let Yarnell Homeowners Sue State
Published: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 – 1:55pm
By: Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services
http://kjzz.org/content/367888/attorney-asks-court-let-yarnell-homeowners-sue-state
From that article…
————————————————————————————–
The attorney for Yarnell residents who lost their home in the 2013 blaze asked the Court of Appeals this morning to let his clients sue the state.
The fire that started with a lightning strike on state land destroyed more than 120 homes and resulted in the deaths of 19 firefighters. Homeowners sued the state Forestry Division, which had taken control of trying to contain the blaze. A trial judge threw out the case concluding the state, in fighting the fire on public lands, had no duty to specifically protect Yarnell residents and their property.
At a hearing Wednesday morning ( September 21, 2016 ), attorney Brock Heathcotte said the state cannot protect everyone who chooses to live adjacent to the wilderness.
“But the risk can be spread to the people who choose to live in the urban-wilderness interface,” said Heathcotte. “They have the ability to form fire districts to protect their homes. The have the ability to insure their homes. They certainly have the ability to fireproof their homes.”
But attorney David Abney said the state voluntarily agreed to try to protect Yarnell. He told the judges the homeowners were entitled to rely on that — and that the state would do its job competently.
“If they had know that the state, all this flurry of activity by the state, was simply just nonsense, Keystone Cops instead of actual acts to protect them, they would have cleared out of there and, I’m sure, some of them would have stayed and fought to the end to protect their property,” Abney said.
Abney wants the appellate court to give his clients a chance to make their case to a jury.
The judges gave no indication WHEN they will rule.
————————————————————————————–
The ‘Prescott Daily Courier’ finally ‘caught up’… and now ( for the first time )… they are saying exactly what WE have been pointing out here all along.
That even if the appeal court ‘upholds’ the lower court decision… it will be the equivalent of “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” and changing the ‘rules of engagement’ for all future fires being ( cough, cough ) ‘fought’ by Arizona State Forestry.
From the ‘Courier’ article…
“What the appellate judges finally rule will have implications beyond the affected Yarnell homeowners. It will set PRECEDENT for the state’s legal obligations — and liability —in future cases where it is fighting blazes.”
The Prescott Daily Courier
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/sep/22/yarnell-property-owners-want-their-day-court/
—————————————————————-
PHOENIX — “Comparing the state’s firefighting actions to “Keystone Cops,’’ the attorney for Yarnell residents who lost their homes in the 2013 blaze wants the Court of Appeals to let them sue the state.
At a hearing Wednesday, David Abney acknowledged it may be an open question of whether the Forestry Division, which was initially battling the fire on state land, had an obligation to protect the residents of the community.
But Abney said the agency, which was coordinating various local, state and federal efforts, voluntarily took on that duty. And having done that, he told the judges, it had an obligation to do it right.
Abney’s arguments have so far failed to get his clients their day in court.
Last year, Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Richard Gama threw out their lawsuits. He concluded that the state, in fighting the fire on public lands, had no duty to specifically protect Yarnell residents and their property.
On Wednesday, attorney Brock Heathcotte who represents the state, asked the appellate judges to uphold Gama’s ruling. He said the state cannot protect everyone who chooses to live adjacent to the state-owned wilderness.
“But the risk can be spread to the people who choose to live in the urban-wilderness interface,’’ he said.
“They have the ability to form fire districts to protect their homes,’’ Heathcotte told the judges. “They have the ability to insure their homes. They certainly have the ability to fireproof their homes.’’
Abney did not dispute any of that.
“If the state had not been there, then the people of Yarnell would have taken extensive measures to protect themselves,’’ he said, things like emergency removal of rubbish, soaking the ground with water, and removing portable propane tanks “which exploded and spread the fire.’’
But he said that the residents were entitled to rely on the state’s assurance it would fight the fire and protect Yarnell — and that it would do it competently.
“If they had known that the state, all this flurry of activity by the state, was simply just nonsense, Keystone Cops instead of actual acts to protect them, they would have cleared out of there and, I’m sure, some of them would have stayed and fought to the end to protect their property,’’ he told the judges.
What the appellate judges finally rule will have implications beyond the affected Yarnell homeowners.
It will set precedent for the state’s legal obligations — and liability —in future cases where it is fighting blazes. And it even could spill over into other disasters like floods.
The fire that started with a lightning strike on state land destroyed more than 120 homes and resulted in the deaths of 19 firefighters.
Abney said there’s plenty of evidence that the Forestry Division botched the job — evidence he will get to present to a jury only if Gama’s decision is overturned.
Under questioning from Judge Peter Swann, Abney conceded that the state is not required to have unlimited resources to be able to protect all people, all property and the wildlands from all risk. But he said there is an obligation to manage the existing resources in a way that is not negligent, “which is what the state completely failed to do here.’’
“Quite frankly, it’s a miracle that no civilians were killed in all of this, with the late evacuation and the fire moving as fast as it was toward the end, all of which we alleged was predictable,’’ Abney said.
“Every day they had the same wind and weather pattern,’’ he explained, blowing away from Yarnell in the morning and toward the community in the afternoon.
“You could set a clock by it,’’ Abney said. “So why the state didn’t take advantage of the weather conditions and do some burn-outs in the morning and protect the community and its people and its structures is just beyond belief.’’
This litigation is separate from lawsuits filed by families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. It was settled last year for just $50,000 for each of the 12 families who sued; the original claim was for $220 million.
But family members said that lawsuit was never about the money but instead learning what happened and ensuring there is not a repeat. Several of the families put what they got into a special fund to conduct independent investigations on fatalities, injuries, equipment and technology in wildland fires.
Part of that deal included the Industrial Commission, responsible for investigating workplace safety deaths and injuries, dropping the maximum permissible $559,000 penalty it had imposed on the Forestry Division, a penalty the state had challenged.
The settlement reduced that $70,000 — $10,000 for each of the seven families that did not sue. It also canceled the hearing that had been set to determine whether violations of safety regulations led to the firefighters’ deaths.
In levying the maximum penalty in late 2013, commission members said they found two serious violations of worker safety regulations.
One is that at the time of the blaze, the state agency had vacancies in the positions of both safety officer and the planning section chief. Marshall Krotenberg, the lead investigator for the commission’s Division of Occupational Safety and Health said that meant no one was available to pay attention primarily to the safety of the firefighters versus simply battling the blaze.
Commission members also said there was a failure to properly plan how to battle the blaze, especially after initial efforts at suppression failed.
—————————————————————-
Followup…
What is also ‘news-worthy’ itself are the number of NASTY COMMENTS posted on that ‘Prescott Daily Courier’ article above regarding the appeal… and apparently all coming from the ‘citizens’ of “Everybody’s Home Town”.
People saying ( publicly ) that Yarnell is just a place where people have always ‘lived in squalor’ and nothing more but the ‘urban-moron interface’… so who cares what happened ( or ever might happen ) to them.
**
** CANYON FIRE ( VANDENBERG AFB ) FATALITY UPDATE
**
** DRIVER WAS SECOND-YEAR FIREFIGHTER ‘ADAM PRICE’.
The DRIVER of the Water Tender with Unit ID “OES WT-12” that rolled over and killed Ventura County FF Ryan Osler yesterday morning was Second-year Ventura County Firefighter Adam Price.
NOTE: The ‘OES’ designation in the Unit ID stands for “Office of Emergency Services”. It was a California State OES Water Tender being driving yesterday by those two Ventura County Firefighters.
Adam Price first appears on the ‘Ventura County’ public payroll starting in 2011 as a ‘Public Safety’ dispatcher. His total pay and benefits for that year was $119,115.
In 2012, he remained a ‘Public Safety’ dispatcher, but he took a base pay cut and his ‘overtime’ was severely restricted. His total pay and benefits dropped back to $71,182.
In 2014, Adam Price now appears as a ‘Firefighter Trainee’ for the Ventura County Fire District. His total pay and benefits as a ‘Firefighter Trainee’ came to to $123,992.
Just last year, in 2015, Adam Price became a basic ‘Firefighter’ for Ventura County His total pay and benefits for 2015 came to almost TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars ( $199,221 dollars ).
So yesterday morning, at 6:20 AM ( 26 minutes before the sun came up ), the 18 year veteran of the Ventura County Fire Department ( Ryan Osler ) was sitting in the passenger set of that State of California “Office of Emergeny Services” ( OES ) Water Tender… and the ‘second year rookie FF’ ( Adam Price ) was the actual ‘Driver’.
There were 2,000 gallons of water onboard ( as per California Highway Patrol ).
At 6:20 AM yesterday morning… it was still DARK… and there was HEAVY FOG.
After driving 4.6 ‘straight as an arrow’ miles on a State Highway ( in a rural area with no streetlights )… Adam Price ‘suddenly’ came upon that ’roundaout’ in the middle of nowhere… and was SUPPOSED to immediately reduce speed from 55 miles per hour to the LEGAL limit for the roundabout of just 15 miles per hour.
The Water Tender rolled over FOUR times before it even made it halfway through that roundabout.
California Highway Patrol is still investigating the accident… but FF Adam Price could very well be CHARGED with any ( or ALL ) of the following…
1. Driving too fast for conditions ( Dark, Fog, etc. )
2. Exceeding the speed limit ( 15 miles per hour for the roundabout ).
3. Failure to have his vehicle under control.
4. ( Possibly ) Vehicular Homicide. ( Just like Beartown WFF Michael Johnson ).
Ventura County PUBLIC Payroll / Salary information…
http://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/ventura-county/?page=4&s=name
From that PUBLIC page…
—————————————————————————–
2011–2015 salaries for Ventura County
47,055 employee records found – Page 4 of 942
Name / Job title /
Regular pay / Overtime pay / Other pay / Total benefits / Total pay & benefits
Adam J Price / Public Safety Dispatcher II Ventura County, 2011
$43,725.29 / $52,829.49 / $5,380.38 / $17,179.87 / $119,115.03
Adam J Price / Public Safety Dispatcher II Ventura County, 2012
$37,629.46 / $19,116.08 / $4,056.11 / $10,381.14 / $71,182.79
Adam J Price / Firefighter Trainee Ventura County, 2014
$51,263.75 / $12,078.81 / $4,163.66 / $56,486.19 / $123,992.41
Adam J Price / Firefighter Ventura County, 2015
$64,873.49 / $49,646.12 / $25,047.81 / $59,653.91 / $199,221.33
———————————————————————————
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on September 21, 2016 at 12:21 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Appeals court done
>> 1 judge not present so no ruling
>> I do not think it will go to trial.
Thank you, Joy.
Which ‘appeals court judge’ was the no-show?
Was it the ‘Kent E. Cattani’ guy, who is on Arizona Governor Doug Ducey’s ‘short list’ for a promotion to the actual ‘Arizona Supreme Court’?
THE SEDONA TIMES
Article Title: Public Comments Sought on Arizona Supreme Court Applicants
Published: August 9, 2016
http://sedonaeye.com/public-comments-sought-on-arizona-supreme-court-applicants/
Yes it was him
Thank you.
** REST IN PEACE – RYAN OSLER
Another Wildland Fire ( The Canyon Fire, near Vandenberg Air Force Base ).
This morning.
Another ‘rollover’.
Another ‘Human Clothes Dryer’ incident.
The Los Angeles Times
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-vandenberg-fire-grows-20160921-snap-story.html
A photo of deceased firefighter Ryan Osler… and a photo of the crashed vehicle.
The entire REAR AXLE assembly is ‘missing’.
http://abc7.com/news/ventura-county-firefighter-dies-in-rollover-crash-near-lompoc/1520789/
Thanks for the photo and report on that fireman killed on a roundabout. We have three roundabouts going into Wickenburg, AZ coming from Las Vegas on HWY 93 or from HWY 89 after it intersects with 93 going into Las Vegas. The genius wannabes that caused these roundabouts to be installed had no common sense. People coming into these suddenly off a route of desolate road for over 200 miles of fast driving suddenly encounter two of these things. The third one is down near the town of Wickenburg and every one of these have already had several roll overs and will continue to have them. How many have been killed I do not know but I have been witness to especially the semi trucks having rolled at these intersections. It is hell for a semi to make the tiny curve and there are plenty of black markings where the semi driver rear wheels have to cross the low curb in the middle. Certainly they have caps placed across the road and signs to warn people to slow down but if you look at the situation you will see that common sense would tell you not to place these things where they did–they are guarantees for accidents and in the case of that fireman a fatal one.
It is not only the roll overs you have to worry about–plenty of times going through there when the main traffic coming in from Vegas is supposed to yield to their yield signs when you are making the circle to enter Wickenburg coming from the south. they just shoot on through and you better yield even if you have the right away. So there are plenty of side crashes, especially on the one next downtown Wickenburg. The next one north is just about as bad for accidents and is just as you enter the north end of Wickenburg. I have seen accidents at both these with large trucks overturned and traffic tied up and rerouted for hours. The one further north about ten miles north of Wickenburg is an access to a small cookie cutter rural subdivision. That thing has a gigantic metal spur in the middle of the circle so plenty of drivers are galking at that thing as they make the circle taking their attention away from their driving when they need it the most — and if it were not for being a rural thing instead of near downtown Wickenburg, the accidents there would be increased five to ten fold. Despite traffic situation, these things cause plenty of unnecessary roll overs as they are. What idiot would put one of these things in a rural situation coming off a fast highway? Someone with a bat hide for sure and short on common sense–maybe someone akin to the fellows that ran the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Oh on a water truck as this fire man had, even more dangerous on a roundabout–high center with water weight and if it were down any amount at all the water will slosh to one side due to centrifugal force and actually cause a force added to the already unsafe high center of that truck. I suspect the driver was not aware of that slosh force. Might be another situation of lack of training given these young men–Another Donut–so he was a young man doing something he was not well trained for and left in a bad spot with no idea how to handle it. Only there was no Frisby there to save his ass–sad we see these situations that should not be.
Now on a different topic-related to the Yarnell Hill Fire. It is raining outside so I can’t be out there doing things I need to get done. We attended the appeals court situation and despite all the emails (150) and 85 personal letters sent out to encourage homeowners to attend the trial only about 25 showed up. We were there eventhough we have no suits. Joy wants to help the home owners and friends since she sees the injustice done to them by letting that fire blossom into a full fledged wild fire that certainly could have been contained the first day. Negligence of the state there is obvious–the clowns that let it go are under the new think–allow natural events to go such as lightening strikes or old bottles from years ago that become magnifying glasses hot enough to start fires in dry weather. It generates jobs, millions for the retardant companies, and makes the FS look good and clears land that would be cleared anyway if man did not intervene. Well when their neglectful acts wipe out half a town and their poison drops of retardant kill many old folks, I think it is common sense they ought to be responsible and some common sense jury folks ought to determine fair amounts for each home owner as to what the state owe them for their negligent act of allowing that lightening strike to do its horrible damage.
Of course they have already settled with the loved ones and the 19 deaths were considered priorities. But now comes the home owners and damages there. The destruction of half the homes of Yarnell , Glen Isla, and Peeples Valley are no light thing. A whole block of houses went off Candy Lane just a block from my rock cabin, the house to the west only 50 ft. from me is nothing but a charred cement slab and the large house that adjoined the east side of my property is no longer to be see and the owner is now displaced to who knows where since she sold the property too distressed to return to a home she had most of her life. I mean everything except the clothes on her back was destroyed by this fire as nearly all that lost homes here experienced. Nina Bell lost 50 years of her life, silver studded saddles she won in roping contests, photos and items of a life time that were to be passed on to heirs. Yet all this was taken in as if it were the fault of home owners. Bull shit, we had a local fire department that had grants to do defensible space in the thousands of federal monies, yet failed to do the grants. People that had defensible space went down as well as those that did not–embers flying in 30 mph winds and 45 mph gusts were travelling for miles in the air–look at Joy’s photo of our old station wagon as we went down the south side of the Weavers while the fire was still on the north end of Yarnell-Glen Isla. (Yarnell and Glen Isla are one settlement but Glen Isla is the South end of Yarnell).
That was about $45 in postage and a lot of hand writing by Joy. She also walked the streets talking to people and put out posters about the event–their lawyers had not even notified the people about the date and place of the appeal. Still, even though only a few of the homeowners responded, I believe that too many old folks here rightfully hate or can not manage the Phoenix down town traffic. Others think they are being hoodwinked anyhow and feel like it is a lost cause. These Judges are part of the state and one even is working with the Govenor so who the hell knows whether they will be partial to the state or not?
If you have not read the book THE WILDFIRE READER you have missed a lot. We were given it by a ACLU member and it is a good read. It delves into the many aspects of the wild fire situation and is authored by many experienced wild land fire fighting experts. It goes into the military aspects of wild land fire fighting, the economic and crony dollar situations in wild land fire fighting, the environmental and FS attitudes and how they have developed. Such things as the effects and poisons involved in retardants, their economic benefits to many yet their often uselessness (Yarnell my own thought)–yet millions in cost and destructiveness to aquatic life and other life as well–human not the least.
The book lays out the importance for informed citizenry, taxpayer fund usage witness, and wild fire wise people to witness the actions and be on hand at wild fires to know what is really occurring during the state and FS management of wild fires. Obviously this is something the money boys that have been enjoying unlimited funds and dispersing them as they claim to be of the utmost benefit to the taxpaying public–DO NOT WANT. This BS of keeping the public eye away from what is really going on by gag orders, redactions, restrictions, martial law shut downs, media black outs as we saw in Yarnell, and even to firing of good fire men because they spoke their minds about what happens in fire fighting management (this has already happened in the Yarnell incident in more than one case).
If you want to get a real view of things and people–something you will never get from media, movies, or the recent books then get an FOIA from the various fire departments. About 90% of incriminating evidence will be redacted if you get the FS and State information but you will get a good idea of the tactics used to cover up the bad management of these fires and how bold these people are in using the tax payer dollar, yet hiding the real way they are dispersing these funds from the hard working tax payer. That hard worker after all has little time and most of his off time is not bothering with details when Monday Night Football has his attention diverted. Yet there are a few like Joy, WTKTT, Gary, JD, Woodsman, Dianne, Marti, and the list can include a few thousand more if these citizens got the word, who do have a very intense interest in both why the lives of so many fire men are lost and how the tax payer dollar is spent by these public servants that have now set themselves up into a cocoon of militaristic and secretive protection. Indeed it will take some intelligent and determined minds such as the few that I have listed to crack that shell and begin to expose the malpractices we have been witnessing–a change that will hinder the methods that have killed the 19 and destroyed half the peaceful residents of Yarnell, Glen Isla and many in Peeples Valley.
It is to say the efforts of JD, those people on this site are the real heroes. They continue to get at the facts despite the continual mega forces of those wanting to keep the public blind to the truth.
Since the ‘Canyon Fire’ started last Saturday… it has been under the ‘management’ of the ‘Vandenberg’ Air Base itself.
CalFire is one of the ‘responding’ agencies ( along with US Forestry )… and CalFire DOES have an active ‘Incident’ page for this ‘Canyon Fire’… but that same CalFire page specifically says “This is NOT a CalFire Incident” and it has a link to the following page at ‘Vandenberg’…
http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/951253/vandenberg-afb-wildland-fire-update
And that page says it HAS gone ‘Inter-Agency’… and now involves more than a THOUSAND firefighters… but still remains ‘managed’ by the Air Base itself?…
————————————————————————
VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. —
As of 7:00 a.m., the Canyon Fire has burned 12,353 acres. The fire is now 50 percent contained and 1,056 firefighters from Vandenberg AFB, U.S. Forestry, Cal Fire, and Santa Barbara County Fire are combating the blaze.
Crews saw very little growth in the fire overnight, due in part to the heavy marine layer and calm winds. This allowed ground teams to further bolster containment lines along base boundaries and around key launch support facilities. Firefighting aircraft are expected to return to the area this morning to battle the blaze ahead of anticipated increases in wind speed, which could gust as high as 30mph later in the week.
More information to follow as the situation develops.
For updates please check the Vandenberg AFB website at
http://www.vandenberg.af.mil.
————————————————————————
Notice that even this latest update does NOT mention ‘Ventura County’… which is where the deceased firefighter Ryan Osler had his ‘day job’.
Ryan Osler was a STRUCTURAL firefighter permanently assigned to ‘Station 42’ in Ventura County.
No word yet on WHO was actually DRIVING that ‘water tender’ that turned into another “Human Clothes Dryer” this morning.
And when ( I wonder ) might we hear about the following THIS time…
1. How much SLEEP did THIS ‘driver’ get before ‘driving and agency vehicle to a fire’?
2. What were the results of HIS/HER ‘drug testing’?
Surely they DID take a ‘blood sample’… as was done recently with Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson… right?
SIDENOTE: For those who were not aware…. the possession and use of marijuana in California is LEGAL with a doctor’s prescription… and ‘recreational use’ has currently been reduced to a simple ‘misdemeanor’ with minimum fines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_California
Excuse me… I was WRONG up above.
The ‘possession and use’ of marijuana in California now does NOT even rise to the level of ‘misdemeanor’.
It’s more like just a ‘traffic ticket’.
From the link above…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_California
——————————————————————
On September 30, 2010, the Governor of California signed into law CA State Senate Bill 1449, which effectively reduces the charge of possession of one ounce of cannabis from a misdemeanor to an infraction, similar to a traffic violation, with a $100 fine and no mandatory court appearance or criminal record.[1] The law became effective January 1, 2011.
——————————————————————–
Key phrase above…
“No mandatory court appearance or criminal record.
So even though California has yet to get around to fully ‘legalizing’ marijuana ( and you can be sure they WILL )… the CURRENT law says that even without a “doctor’s prescription” ( already TOTALLY legal ).. the ‘recreational use’ of marijuana in California is NOT considered to be a CRIME in any way.
“No court appearance. No criminal record”.
Reply to WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) post
on September 21, 2016 at 7:27 pm
>> WTKTT said…
>>
>> Notice that even this latest update does NOT mention ‘Ventura
>> County’… which is where the deceased firefighter Ryan Osler
>> had his ‘day job’.
>>
>> Ryan Osler was a STRUCTURAL firefighter permanently assigned
>> to ‘Station 42’ in Ventura County.
This is just a ‘followup’ to my own post up above.
Here is a link to the ‘web page’ for this ‘Ventura County’ Station 42 where deceased firefighter Ryan Osler ( married, father of two young girls ) had his ‘permanent DAY JOB’ as a STRUCTURAL firefighter…
http://vcfd.org/Stations/Station-42
There was NO WATER TENDER assigned to that station.
From that web page…
———————————————————
The Moorpark station is staffed daily by three
firefighters and houses an engine (Engine 42);
reserve engine (Engine 142);
and a brush engine (Engine 342).
———————————————————
Correction for above.
Ryan Osler did not have two ‘daughters’. He had one son and one daughter.
Ryan Osler is survived by his wife, Jennifer, their 12-year-old daughter, Amanda, and their 11-year-old son, Brandon.
Yes, the military is much involved in wild land fires. I was reading from the ACLU member’s gift book, that during the 60’s-70’s when we were greatly worried about the possible Russian nuclear bombs coming in that the military got involved in spending millions in making fire breaks all over the forests of the US with the theory that if a nuclear bombs took out a number of the cities, then at least our forests would be partially protected. So apparently the military was inculcated into the business of Wild Land Firefighting efforts. You certainly see it in the way things are managed in a militaristic way and how now anytime a citizen or the media wants to involve in a wild land fire he does so at the risk of being arrested, fined, jailed or paraded as an uninformed dumb ass. When you see martial law installed as we saw in Yarnell so that even the media is kept out, then we know that there is much that the management does not want shown to the Public. Yet local homeowners were convinced this was to help them. Many of them went along with the idea, thinking they did not want people of the world to see there destroyed homes and possible it would keep out looters. Well what the hell can you loot from an ash pile? And what neighbor that had an intact home would not watch out for strangers looting the ash pile of his neighbor next door?
We did have two known looters while the fire was in progress burning homes. They grabbed guns and money before homes burned even but were later caught. They did this while martial law was in effect and the deputies and authorities were thick as the manzanita that killed the 19. They were under the pretense and told deputies that they were helping evacuate people. Needless to say after being caught some time after the fire when they hocked some guns in Prescott, they were arrested. I think both are out now, but it would not be wise for either to return to Yarnell according to what some old timers have told me. Some of these people are not very forgiving of such terrible acts in taking advantage of their property as their home was being burned.
If you are clever and coy, you can convince the people that your actions and use of his money is to his benefit But when you abuse the use of his money and your actions take the lives of his revered friends, then it requires more manipulation and action to cover the misdeeds.
There were many misdeeds in the Yarnell fire. How can you dare let a lightening strike expand when it is in a zone of extreme fire danger near your town and it would only take a minimal effort and something a few, even one man could contain in less than an hour. My dad and I had these strikes contained in less than a half hour after hiking up a steeper mountain side out of Sawmill Canyon for a longer distance on foot than the strike we had at Yarnell. There were no two track trails there–all steep climb through timber and brush.
Of course ordering 19 men into a death trap against all common sense and wild land fire fighting 10 and 18 or simple LCES safety rules was not the least of the management faults.
Paying no attention to incoming storms and incoming storm and wind change warnings was among some of the more significant faults.
And now that such herioics were made of the GMHS bosses by their risking their mens lives following orders from head quarters we see that the state and FS cover ups have managed to restrict the area so that people, including even wild land fire fighters can not go there to evaluate the reasons those men erred and died. They can not see that instead of deploying the death blankets, those men had time to get into a boulder pile even better than the area with less brush (almost totally devoid of brush) than where Marsh was crossing the fire line back and forth several times. In fact there was a fire moving down the boulder field where we were within a few yards (50-75) from that fire line, and did watch Marsh cross it. He was not overly concerned doing it nor about the fire in that boulder area. Yet the boulder field about 70 yards to the South of where they died could not even have that type of crossable line since there was not enough brush in that huge boulder area to have a fire line–yet below that field only 70 yards were the GMHS whittling out the thick manzanita with chain saws and piling it around themselves in a small perimeter getting ready to lie under a thin blanket with 50-100 ft flames coming out of them with 30-40mph winds behind it. From where it turned the ridge and they could see it, they had about four minutes. Now in high school I could run the 100 yard dash in about ten or 11 seconds–I was fast. Well I estimate that they had likey five or six minutes since seeing the fire and maybe more since Marsh was somewhere near the Helms and I expect he was up in the boulder pile behind the helms where he had a better view of things and the fire. He came to them from that direction.
Anyway in that brush by dropping their shit, those men might have taken at the most 45 seconds to forge through the brush to the boulder pile-even with their shit still on them. This is only one lesson that could be learned from going there into the basin, not to mention the fact that all could see that dropping off into that canyon in the first place was absolutely a death situation.
Yet by convincing the public and the loved ones that restricting the area is a good thing for them and will keep public away from seeing their errors of being there it does hide those deadly mistakes. But that is not helpful to future lives of firemen. In fact, it desecrates the value and honor of those men. It angers some that want to go there just to honor the men as well.
Yet it helps cover up the real reasons the men died but protects the hides of those men that want their reputations intact despite their failed efforts at wild land fire fighting management.
Ok Joy is off in my roller skate car (Nissan Versa)–It is grey in case you want to take a shot at it while I am in it. It has a disabled Veterans tag on the back—a good thing when the heart won’t let you walk across the parking lot to the store front. She has a five page hand written letter going to the absent Judge and asking for another FOIA on him. Whew, talk about nerve.
Anyway that psychic had all Joy’s medical predictions and every point was made and then yesterday after that reading verified by medical tests. The Psychic told Joy that the doctors were right about my prediction–November a month from now would be my last round up–so I am jack hammering out another cave under a 15 ft. boulder. This will expand my front yard and give my dogs a handy place out of the weather. They are all inside right now with me. We are having a cold and steady drizzle out there so that Jack Hammering will have to wait until this weather clears a bit. I haven’t consulted my Irish Gods about this yet–they have been busy visiting other worlds and likely won’t make it back before the end of November, so I might have to put off my dying for some time.
This all reminds me, much of the information coming in is noise. It is hard to have good discernment and you can not be right all the time But when you surround yourself with all yes men, or as a dictator you instill fear into them so that they become all yes men, or as a wild land fire fighter you ascribe to strictly taking orders at all times and are dumb enough to drop down and do 50 push ups simply because some fucker orders it ;yet, you do not need to or want to then you become mind fucked and later life fucked when ordered into a deadly situation. Does it ring true with GMHS. To my way of thinking and if a bat hide in Psychology supports that opinion to any degree then the idea does ring true.
It is the military methods used in wild land fire fighting that I see as suspect. Words like how is your comfort level translate to you better drop off in that basin to the Boulder Ranch or your ass in deep shit. We know this since seeing the gag orders, strick orders to stay away from the area, and threats to people’s careers. I said threats but they are real–look at the firing of Brown already–one of the men that were on the line at the Yarnell Fire. He spoke without consulting his superiors and they did not like what he said–he is now history and likely black balled among wild land fire fighting crews. If these fireings, redactions, gag orders, restricted areas, martial law provisions, restrictions on media, dragging out and denying FOIA’s military actions don’t tell the public something then we have a nation of block heads ready to throw tax dollars at any purchase of ocean front property in Yarnell.
Ok, something on the lighter side –the roller skate Versa, 2015–so I displaced my key. Good lord it is a car payment to get a new key–$150-$250 depending upon the car dealership not to mention from here that is a days journey to fiddle around Phoenix locating one and getting it done. Time, gas money, restaurant eating, maybe a motel and aggravation of Phoenix traffic are not fun or cheap.
After finding the displaced Key and wiping my brow, I ordered two of these blanks you can get only at a dealership off ebay–$17. After much haranguing from Joy that she knows you will fuck up your computer, the car is 15 grand going to hell, etc. etc, I had my keys come in the mail.
Yesterday after all the Yarnell Judge appeals thing I stopped at Home Depot and told the guy making keys there that I had my own blanks and would pay him to duplicate my origional. He did with no charge. This morning, I followed the instructions on line on how to program these new keys–there are about ten things you have to do that seem silly but hell the emergency flashers blinked as they said they would and now I have two extra keys that do all the the origional does. That was a Phoenix dealership that gave the key instructions so you can trust them and they work–likely some other dealer ships are mad at this one, but you can bet my business will go there next time I want a vehicle. Honesty is more attractive than the greedy bastards that want to sell you a key for $250 dollars that you can buy for $9 on ebay and program yourself in ten minutes (or less) if you are quicker than I am.
Good for Joy!
Reply to Charlie post on September 22, 2016 at 12:30 pm
Tá tú ar rolla lá atá inniu ann , Charlie . Go raibh maith agat as an t -eolas go léir go maith .
( Translation: You are on a roll, Charlie. Thank you for all the good information ).
And you are absolutely RIGHT about this ’roundabout’. It really WAS in the ‘middle of fucking nowhere’… with NO SIGNS warning you it was even there… and in a place where you would have been driving WEST on a State Highway at 55 mph for exactly 4.6 miles ‘straight as an arrow’ before this ’roundabout’ suddenly appears out of nowhere in front of you.
And the SPEED LIMIT for the ’roundabout’ itself was just 15 mph.
There is NO WAY that ‘Water Tender’ was observing the correct legal speed limit of 15 mph. It if had been… it would NEVER have ‘rolled over four times’ there in that roundabout the way it did.
Looks like the ‘driver’ of this ‘water tender’ might have been HAULING ASS exactly the way all THREE of the “Beartown Firefighters” vehicles were on August 27, 2016.
There was also a HUGE controversy about ‘installing’ this roundabout in the first place. No one wanted it and they thought asking people to suddenly have to ‘slow down’ from 55 mph to 15 mph in the middle of nowhere was a BAD IDEA… but CalTran had money left in their budget in 2012 that they needed to either ‘spend or lose’… so CalTran went ahead and installed this ’roundabout’ anyway… against even the wishes of the California Highway Patrol.
But there is NOTHING in any of the mainstream media articles I’ve seen so far that mentions ANY of this. ( The controversy about the roundabout itself, the 15 mph speed limit there, etc. ).
More about that in an upcoming post…. but in the meantime… just click the following link and ‘Google Maps’ will be showing you that exact ’roundabout in the middle of nowhere’ where STRUCTURAL firefighters Ryan Osler lost his life yesterday morning.
The ’roundabout’ will be perfectly visible there in the center of the image once the page loads. Just ZOOM BACK and you will see how RURAL that area actually was.
Google Maps
Roundabout at intersection of Highway 246 and Purisima Road…
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6647367,-120.4079673,762m/data=!3m1!1e3
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It is the military methods used in wild land fire
>> fighting that I see as suspect. Words like how
>> is your comfort level translate to you better
>> drop off in that basin to the Boulder Ranch or
>> your ass in deep shit.
Yes. “What’s your comfort level” is a very ‘subtle’ question.
It IMPLIES that the one asking the question CARES about what someone else thinks about what they are asking them about… but it also IMPLIES that unless you answer in the ‘correct’ way… you are going to be told to do it, anyway ( or that you are in for an ‘argument’ ).
Exactly what happened ( even according to survivor Brendan McDonough ) on June 30, 2013.
According to even what McDonough has reported… Marsh didn’t really give a damn what Jesse Steed’s ‘comfort level’ was. He was just going to ‘talk him out of’ whatever objections he had, anyway… and if that didn’t work… just ORDER him to do it, anyway… as if it really WAS ‘the military’.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> We know this since seeing the gag orders, strick
>> orders to stay away from the area, and threats to
>> people’s careers. I said threats but they are real–look
>> at the firing of Brown already–one of the men that
>> were on the line at the Yarnell Fire. He spoke without
>> consulting his superiors and they did not like what he
>> said–he is now history and likely black balled
>> among wild land fire fighting crews.
Are you referrring to ‘Trueheart Brown’?… the FORMER ‘Assistant Superintendent of the Blue Ridge Hotshots?
It is KNOWN that ‘Trueheart Brown’ LEFT the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” altogether not long after Yarnell… but there’s never been any clear reason that has surfaced WHY he ‘left’.
Are you saying that Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent ( Captain ) Trueheart Brown was actually ‘canned’ for “not keeping his mouth shut” about something?
Not sure of the first name since Joy talked directly with him He is however suing. The FS and State are not kidding when they say you better not talk about the Yarnell Fire unless they first hear what you have to say and then get their approval to say it. They take away that first amendment right of freedom to express our opinion by having people sign papers that they as employees do not have that God given constitutional right. Are they claiming the talk about wild land fire fighting methods such as was seen at Yarnell is a threat to national security? What are the real reasons they do not want people to talk about the Yarnell incident? Well on JD site, we talk and express our opinions but then most of us are not under the gun.
Indeed, the only threat to national security (mainly home and life security) is the fact that they can not talk about the things they see and their opinions on them These things need to go public so people can understand the faults and how their dollars are being used and misused. After all, this man is akin to any other expert wild land fire fighter–we want to hear his say as much as the higher honchos want us not to hear. He is considered an experienced expert in the wild land fire fighting field. But then he is not a yes man, yes mam type fire fighter.
I hope his suit is a winner and takes away any possibility of any employer demanding a constitution right, especially freedom of speech be taken away by contract so that person can earn a gainful living. Good Lord are we a pack of commies now that we are afraid to speak out when we see wrong doing?
And thanks WTKTT for giving us the low down about the driver that rolled four times at a roundabout. Those damn things belong back in England where they came from. They are damn sure dangerous on an autobahn situation.
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> And thanks WTKTT for giving us the low
>> down about the driver that rolled four
>> times at a roundabout. Those damn things
>> belong back in England where they came
>> from. They are damn sure dangerous on
>> an autobahn situation.
What’s ironic is that back in 2011… the only reason this ’roundabout’ in the middle of nowhere there where Highway 246 intersects with Purisima Road was even being considered is because that intersection was FAMOUS for ‘fatal accidents’.
That ‘T’ intersection had fatality numbers that were FOUR TIMES the national average for similar ‘T intersections’.
Everyone agreed that something had to be done… but it was CalTrans ( California Transportation Department ) idea to do a ’roundabout’.
Everyone ( City Councils, County officials, and even the California Highway Patrol itself ) ‘protested’ the ’roundabout’ idea for that RURAL location.
NO ONE thought it was a ‘good idea’ to just suddenly have a ’roundabout’ in the middle of nowhere… where there aren’t even any STREETLIGHTS, requiring drives to ‘suddenly’ have to drop from 55 miles per hour down to 15 miles per hour.
But CalTran went ahead and ‘installed’ that ’roundabout’ there, anyway, in 2012.
It really does look like the driver of that State-owned Water Tender, Ventura County second-year firefighter Alan Price, just suddenly ‘came upon’ that roundabout as he was cruising WEST ( in the DARK and the FOG ) at 6:20 AM yesterday morning.
I don’t think he ( driver Alan Price ) had ANY idea there was just suddenly going to be a ’roundabout’ there appearing out of nowhere on a State Highway with a speed limit of 55 mph.
I think by the time he even realized he was now ‘entering a roundabout’… all he could do was jump on the brakes, jack the wheel to the LEFT and try to ‘make the tight turn’.
He didn’t. The 2,000 gallons of water in the tank ‘sloshed’ to the RIGHT, and over she went.
He certainly was NOT going the LEGAL speed limit of 15 mph either just prior to OR while he was IN that roundabout.
Only question is… how FAST was he REALLY going to cause that 2,000 gallon tender to turn into a “Human Clothes Dryer” in that ’roundabout’ and roll over as MANY times as it did ( killing Ryan Osler in the process ).
There really MIGHT be ‘charges’ filed against second-year structural FF Alan Price.
Yes… conditions were BAD at the time ( DARK and FOGGY )… but that’s no excuse for either ‘speeding’ or ‘not having your vehicle under control’ or ( perhaps ) ‘reckless driving’. He COULD still be ‘charged’ with one ( or all ) of these things… just like you or I probably would be if we were ‘at the wheel’ and a passenger was killed.
That ’roundabout’ there really WAS a ‘bad idea’.
Even today… if you go into Google ‘Street View’ at that ’roundabout’ location… you can clearly see in the photos taken LONG before yesterday’s accident… all kinds of TIRE and SKID marks all over the CURBS in that roundabout.
Apparently, since it was installed, a LOT of people have gone ‘up on those CURBS’ in that roundabout. On a REGULAR basis.
** RE: TRUEHEART BROWN
Regarding ‘Rogers Trueheart BROWN’ ( the former Assistant Superintendent of the Blue Ridge Hotshots ).
Turns out he STILL works for the US Forestry Service… and is STILL attached to the same National Forest.
Something tells me if he had REALLY pissed off the ‘higher ups’… he wouldn’t have basically gotten a ‘promotion’ to AFMO.
Rogers Trueheart Brown remains ‘attached’ to the same ‘Coconinio National Forest’ that ‘hosts’ the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’, but he has been an AFMO ( Assistant Forestry Management Officer ) since he left the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization not long after the Yarnell Tragedy.
USDA – US Forestry PUBLIC page that allows you to SEARCH for any USFS employee by name…
http://www.fs.fed.us/about-agency/contact-us/employee-search
A Search for…
First Name: Rogers
Last Name: Brown
Produces only 1 ‘result’…
Rogers T ( Trueheart ) Brown
AFMO – Region 3 – Southwestern (Arizona, New Mexico)
R3, Coconino NF, Mogollon Rim RD
928-527-8245 x (phone)
928-527-8265 (fax)
Correction for above.
The NAME of the second-year STRUCTURAL firefighter who was driving that Water Tender was ‘Adam Price’… and NOT ‘Alan Price’.
Adam J. Price.
Robert the Second says
SEPTEMBER 19, 2016 AT 8:15 AM
Gary,
You posted: “Especially RTS…he can be a real DICK, but he did that job for 27 years!”
A real DICK, really?
A Richard Cranium or a Ricardo Cabeza, at times, maybe, but definitely NOT a DICK.
And where did you come up with that one? What got me in that category?
Remember that BOSS spelled backwards is SSOB, Double SOB. We were there to be their Boss, their Supervisor, and NOT their ‘friend.’
And it was 26 years. Thanks
And I say, that was just me reliving some of the exchanges we had back and forth downstream…this most recent post was just [mostly} me just messin’ with you.
Like I have told you before…I miss being mentally, emotionally and psychologically abused by others around me on a regular basis..don’t you?
And you do know how much I love you and really respect you.
As for the rest of us…I think we can all agree that RTS can be a real Richard Cranium…am I right?
No. Not right.
You are a part of system I have been FOIAing and learning about…but you deserve respect not adjectives like such because we all in the human race have our off moments…
We should be focused to THEM that TWIST the neck of history so THEY can interpret it to be THEIR way and we should FOCUS to the ones TRYING to control the PRESENT so they can AUTHOR the past to fit THEIR present to control the future. I have big G FOUND the yellow brick road (which one am I ..flying monkey?) on the recent incoming foia and I now am storing it away from me but I did gain much clarity to Prescott ways of things and how if you do not follow the way no matter how educated you are and how many loyal dedicated years you gave and all the blood and sweat…you can be ousted at any moment and defamate your character and it did already happen and I feel bad because that person eyewitness what I did 6.30.13…aint that tragedy enough? When I read it all I was disappointed in some and how they turned this fine man into like some hs bullshit where if you are friends with Julie than dont be around me kind of attitude and I got to see the shady ugly ways of someone tied to Willis…If anyone is a lawyer what is the Arizona laws on a taxpayer getting a non commercial foia and what can i do besides read it? What are my writing or verbal rights?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
September 20, 2016 at 3:29 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> If anyone is a lawyer what is the Arizona laws on a taxpayer
>> getting a non commercial foia and what can i do besides
>> read it? What are my writing or verbal rights?
Joy… first and foremost… IANAL ( I am NOT a ‘lawyer’ ).
But it really doesn’t take a ‘lawyer’ to figure this one out.
You have made an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request as a ‘non-commercial’ entity, and as long as you ( YOURSELF ) don’t do anything blatantly ‘commercial’ that would directly provide ( As the Arizona LAW itself clearly states ) a DIRECT ‘expectation of monetary gain’… then you are FREE to SHARE whatever PUBLIC information is now in your possession with ANYONE YOU LIKE.
You are NOT writing a book.
You are NOT making a movie.
You are NOT offering the information for SALE on eBay or anywhere else.
You have been provided with PUBLIC information and you ARE ‘free’ to PUBLICLY share that information.
And here is what the TOP Lawyer in the State of Arizona ( The actual Arizona Attorney General ) has to say about it…
The Arizona Attorney General
Arizona Agency Handbook
Chapter 6 – PUBLIC RECORDS
https://www.azag.gov/sites/default/files/sites/all/docs/agency-handbook/ch06.pdf
————————————————————————
A.R.S. § 39 – 121.03(D). ( The Arizona Open Records Law )
Commercial uses include:
1) Use of the public records for sale or resale;
2) Obtaining names and addresses from public records for the purposes of solicitation; and
3) The sale of names and addresses to another for any purpose in which the purchaser can reasonably anticipate the receipt of monetary gain from the direct or indirect use of the public record. ( See Primary Consultants, LLC v. Maricopa County Recorder, 210 Ariz. 393, 400,111 P.3d 435, 442 (App. 2005). ).
The use of public records for one’s trade or business is NOT a commercial purpose. ( See caselaw: Id. at 400, 28, 111 P.3d at 442 )
Gathering newsworthy facts from public records to include in a newspaper or other publication is NOT a commercial purpose. ( See caselow: Parks, 178 Ariz. at 605, 875 P.2d at 838. )
————————————————————————
Again… you are NOT doing either 1, 2 or 3 above ( which are the only definitions of ‘commercial purpose’ in the Arizona Open Records Law itself ).
And the Arizona Attorney General is pointing out Arizona CASELAW which has ALREADY determined both of the following things…
1. The use of public records for one’s trade or business is NOT a commercial purpose.
2. Gathering newsworthy facts from public records to include in a newspaper or other publication is NOT a commercial purpose.
So ‘share away’.
The ONLY big ‘caveat’ I would add is that you, yourself, need to be DOUBLY careful about ‘privacy laws’ with regards to ( perhaps ) some of the information that might be in your possession…. but this ‘caveaty’ ONLY applies to information that is OBVIOUSLY ‘personal’ like Social Security numbers, Personal phone numbers and personal email addresses.
The TRUTH is… people can be ‘screw ups’.
The information you might have been sent in response to a valid ‘Open Records Request’ is SUPPOSED to have already been ‘sanitized’ with this kind of obviously PERSONAL information totally REDACTED…
…but like I said… people CAN be ‘screw ups’.
Some moron somewhere might have accidentally LEFT information in the ‘records’ that really was SUPPOSED to have been REDACTED.
So just be sure to DOUBLE CHECK that whatever you might want to post to any place that could be considered a PUBLIC place does NOT contain this sort of obvious ‘Personal Information’.
PUBLIC phone numbers ( like business phone numbers ) are not ‘personal’.
PUBLIC email addresses ( anything with a domain name being paid for by the taxpayers ) are not ‘personal’.
But ‘Social Security’ numbers are… and unless a PUBLIC ‘Civil Servant’ is publishing their ‘cell phone’ number on other PUBLIC pages or sites… those particular ‘cell phone’ numbers that some idiot might have forgotten to redact are still considered ‘private information’.
Unless publishing any ‘phone numbers’ at all is part of what you are trying to ‘share’ or ‘talk about’… the best bet is to just ‘X’ out or REDACT any ‘phone numbers’ you are not sure about.
Thank you.
I get that.
However my other concern is I live in this county.
If what I am reading about a man with a long loyal vlood and sweat history who did so much good can be ousted I am nervous their capabilities to some housewife who means zip to them. I am an avoidability person. My foia was not complete yet I got confirmation case closed and I said how can it be closed if it did not get all the answers and documents especially I was reading a juicy one from Cory than next page missing. I will be doing new foia on Cory as well as a few others. I was deeply disappointed the foia is labelled closed yet stuff is missing. I was told by Linda Ripley she had more than a banker box to cooy so $225 so I paid it than they wanted $97.25 more when I got it. But keeps in mind I had between a quarter to half full banker box so where is thw rest or is that how much was redacted? Some areas that should of been redacted were not and areas of need were heavily redacted and I have to assume alot of omission if my box is not like how Ripley described it. The reason I asked about who I can talk to is because I think I could help the ousted man was all but I see he has a lawsuit already at them so maybe just guiding him he is in the right to feel ousted…I have to drive now…my fasting labs are at 6am than 11am is the appeals case than on to my brain tumor assesment procedure at 4 in Scottsdale so look when I can even though I am on pause I did have to say what I did about Gary about RTS.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on September 21, 2016 at 3:49 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> My foia was not complete yet I got confirmation case closed
>> and I said how can it be closed if it did not get all the answers
>> and documents
Welcome to the FOIA and ‘Open Records’ game.
They ( these ‘public servants’ ) will ALWAYS just try to make it ‘look’ like the are being ‘cooperative’… but will still be trying to ‘withhold’ things they don’t wany anyone to see.
But the LAW is on YOUR side ( not theirs ).
THEY are ‘public servants’… but YOU are the PUBLIC ‘they serve’.
And it doesn’t matter if THEY don’t like it. That’s the way it IS.
My turn to be a ‘cheerleader’…
“Hit ’em again… Hit ’em again… HARDER!… HARDER!”.
If they say they ‘case is closed’… then just “hit ’em again” with a NEW request ( for specific things you know they are withholding ), and they have to ‘open a new request’ and respond to THAT one.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> especially I was reading a juicy one from Cory ( Moser ) than
>> next page missing. I will be doing new foia on Cory as well
>> as a few others. I was deeply disappointed the foia is labelled
>> closed yet stuff is missing.
The LAW says that they can claim ‘exemptions’ for things they want to ‘withhold’… but that doesn’t mean they can just ‘withhold’ relevant documents and deny they even exist.
They can REDACT ’emails’ or ‘letters’… but they still have to include ALL the parts of the document ( email headers, etc. ) that prove the document exists. They are only allowed to ‘black out’ certain parts of the CONTENT… and they have to say WHY they are ‘claiming an exemption’ for doing so.
Even when ADOSH requested the ‘Blue Ridge Unit Logs’… the FEDS did the same thing to THEM.
To this day… even while they ‘redacted’ parts of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs ( but still had to show they existed )… they also just ‘left out’ entire PAGES of Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log.
At the bottom of this online document…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/combined-blue-ridge-materials.pdf
The LAST PARAGRAPH of the ‘released’ copy of Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log just ENDS ( in mid-sentence ) when he was describing how he and Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent ( Captain ) Trueheart Brown were ‘chasing’ other firefighters OUT of the Youth Camp area at the end of Shrine Road…
Brian Frisby – Page 6 of his official ‘Unit Log’…
———————————————————————–
We kept driving up the draw and saw the rest of them
pushing out. We told them they needed to hurry and we
followed them out. When we got back to their trucks I
stressed to them that they needed to hurry. We were
getting multiple spots and…
————————————————————————
That’s it.
That ‘released’ copy of Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log ( in response to a valid FOIA request from ADOSH ) just ENDS right there… in mid-sentence, on his ‘page 6’.
And it wasn’t even the END of his ‘Page 6’.
It was right in the middle of it, with even the rest of that handwritten page just ‘wiped out’… and no page ‘7’ or ‘8’ or however many pages were left.
It remains very ‘suspicious’ that they would just CUT the entire rest of Brian Frisby’s Unit Log… just moments BEFORE he would have that face-to-face meeting in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell. ( captured in one of Hulburd’s videos ).
And just moments after that is when Jesse Steed’s first ’emergency radio call’ would appear ( at 4:39 PM ) on the Air To Ground channel.
They decided to make it look like Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log just STOPS ( in mid-sentence ) right when they were almost done ‘chasing’ people out of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
All you can do is ‘keep at it’.
They treat it like a GAME… and they just count on you to ‘stop playing’ at some point ( even though they know the LAW is on YOUR side ).
Appeals court done
1 judge not present so no ruling
I do not think it will go to trial.
But make your own assessment…in two weeks judge will have today’s hearing on Youtube
I look forward to seeing that.
keep in mind Diane Knapp was not present as well as the judge mentioned above as well as media who said they plan to be there—so that red flagged me as hmmm….
good night…not well…Sonny wanted to get on so I turned it on to see if I could make sense of full body mri—
Whoops – I just realized my “bottom of the barrel” terminology needs to be explained in further detail and I am going to use myself for an example. Bottom of the barrel itself could refer to those who are coked up potheads who can’t stay off the bottle and have a criminal history…or it could just refer to those like myself…who were lacking in the knowledge, skills, abilities, training and experience needed for the jobs the USFS (and everyone else) is force to put temporary people into because they don’t offer either the wages or benefits that would attract the same applicant for say a structural firefighter position. And they may actually be from the same applicant pool, but any applicant would drop a temporary WF gig for a full time position with a structural fire department in a New York minute.
Here is a rundown on what the USFS expected me to do on a daily basis as a 19 year junior college student who had only worked as a movie ticket taker/usher, furniture store flunky, deliver furniture, put it together and clean the store and a mosquito control technician for the county, in addition to odd jobs in building construction etc.
1. My first job with the Prescott N.F. as a Fire Prevention Technician to take independent initial attack action on small fires and if you went through my postings on how I went about cutting that yellow pine down, that give you a good idea of how qualified I was to actually do that job with only 40 hours of training.
2. My primary job however, still blows me away when I think about how reckless the USFS was with my life…after only 8 hours of training. Which did not take up the entire 8 hours, because the supervisor who was training me had to leave after a couple of hours so he told me to spend the rest of the day weeding around the remote guard station and we never picked up where we left off. The only thing I remember from that training was being told NOT to wear sunglasses when I was making a contact with the public. Which was certainly good advice but I could have used some more….advice.
My job was to contact people, who very well could have been bad people, who were almost always armed wait…this was Arizona so I will drop the “almost” always armed, had been drinking or were planning on drinking, in remote areas, by myself, in uniform with a BADGE and take law enforcement action by writing citations for non-compliance with all of the laws, rules and regulations governing the use of the National Forest….and then telling them to “have a nice day.”
To give you an idea of how prepared I was for that job on my first day of patrol…the radio pack set they gave me to use (without any training on how to use the damn thing) started making a “squelch”: noise after a few minutes and I didn’t know why. I didn’t know there was a squelch nob on it that all I needed to do was to adjust by turning it. So…I listened to that squelch noise all day long because I was afraid to touch the radio and screw it up.
Now…did I have the potential to become a good employee? I would argue that yes…I did. Was I given the minimum amount of training that was needed to get me up to a minimally acceptable level of performance…no.
And I am pretty sure they could have found better and more qualified people to take on that job…if they would have offered more than a summer/seasonal employee status without benefits at the GS-3 grade…but they didn’t…so they got me instead. Am I grateful for the start? Damn right I am…but was it a good idea?
And FYI…Today, USFS Law Enforcement Officers (I was the FIRST one on the Santa Fe National Forest in 1984) who have successfully completed the Police Training Program at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center which I think is up to 16 weeks now, who are at the GS-9/11 grade level, who are armed with a Sig Sauer .40 primary handgun, a .380 backup handgun, a Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun and a Colt M-4…now have the same responsibilities I used to have as described above.
So…what I am saying is this, FIRE needs to catch up with Law Enforcement. The problem comes because YOU people need a lot more WF than you do LEO’s. So…WF’s are still getting the short end of the stick when it comes to grade, training and benefits. That needs to change but it it going to cost YOU people a lot more money…so it won’t change..
And those same USFS LEO’s are now outfitted the some of the best looking marked patrol 4×4 jacked up 3/4 ton trucks with winches I have ever seen, complete with sirens, lights, PA’s and are wired into other LEO’s on the forest, cooperating agencies like the sheriff’s office, state police and a 24 law enforcement dispatch.
I wasn’t wired into anyone except for God…he was my sky pilot. Just messin’ with you…God was too busy to pay attention to whether I found trouble or whether trouble found me. And I had a uniform and a badge…I went lookin’ for trouble.
My comment is out of sequence but I am wondering about the Helms property and
what if anything it had to do with the Yarnell disaster?
Only the Good Lord, WTKTT, Sonny and Joy can really answer that one. The short official answer is…nothing (I think), but…?
It is hard to tell about the Helms. They have according to public records an annual income of ten million gross from doing contract work –Helms Precision in Phoenix. We do not know how much of that is Federal Contracts.
We have been told by Leonard and Brent that the area of the so called Boulder Ranch was cleaned of defensible space two weeks before the fire. The Ranch itself we are told has a shop full of expensive machinery-but the actual business is in Phoenix. Despite the clean up before the fire some of the equipment burned and the Helms are one of the highest suits on the list against the State for damages from the Yarnell Fire. It may have been just a coincidence or they may have been aware of the setting aside of the area of 320 acres as top rated restricted for fire danger and that area is right next to their private property. They certainly were in a hot spot and Joy’s photos show the density of the entangled manzanita around the Ranch and up that basin where the men died.
Holly Niel spent several days visiting with the Helms after the fire and would be knowledgeable more than anyone about their input:;however, I think Holly is tied to the book writer with information so is not able to comment freely.
A friend of John Eckert who lives near Navajo Lake and in Cedar City, Utah spoke to us and said he helped build the ranch back in the 70’s and it was for a Federal project at that time. We were at a potluck dinner and the guy started talking about it. But we did not get his name–something John would know.
There are lots of mysteries in this yet, and as Dr. Ted Putnam says, unless we see court action much will remain hidden yet known among a few. Ted is privy to much but because it comes from sources not wanting their information public, he will only talk if put under oath in a court of law. It seems that the lawyers will work it out so it does not go to court.
I had a question of my own–likely Gary will have a good answer to this one.
Seeing that Donut was totally abandoned afar off from the rest of the crew and not used as a lookout for their descent into the death basin, I wondered what reason that could be. One could surmise that perhaps the main crew bosses did not want him in their area. In fact he was left two ridges over and down deep in an area that left him no escape if and when the fire changed directions and only by luck did Frisby happen by to extact him from a death situation.
What reason would he be staying in that position by the grader when he was of no use to anyone. He should have been already out of the area. What gives there?
We went to Prescott today–Joy got her FOIA and I mean a full heavy box of paperwork on the Yarnell Fire. Whew, there is a lot of pertinent and not public information in that pile. If those movie people do not get an FOIA on this fire, then they certainly need it–it lays out a bunch of very important information.
At breakfast, we overheard a loved one talking in a booth adjoining–He said why would they even be sent up there in the first place since they could do nothing to stop a fire already advanced down the mountain beyond the scope of a twenty man team. I have to agree and where we were on the south side in the boulders we were out of sight of what was over the ridge until it got advanced to where we could see it exploding toward Peeples Valley. It exploded right at the base of the next little mountain off the main Weaver Ridge–all hell broke loose and definitely you would have thought Donut would have headed out at about 11:30 or would have joined the main crew just above him not over two hundred yards up the hill.
Anyhow the man with the loss was considering leaving Prescott–the grief of loss makes people change.
I know this, when I lost my son Ted, I left a job, a nice apartment, sold my BMW, married a nurse in Vegas, divorced two weeks later, then went on the streets for over a year–the grief was unbearable to me–I understand the terrible situation of loosing a child.
I am going to take a crack at the question, but in the end I will defer to my esteemed colleague…Mr. Second who knows more about the situation because he attended the staff ride using my ticket and I am still waiting for the return on my investment.
So here goes. I think everyone (Marsh, Steed, the crew, and Mr. McDonough) could all see and independently verify that the situation was hopeless and going to hell in a hand basket. I think they all knew and it was time to stay put in the black or didi mau most ricky tick and it was every man for himself and Steed told Mr. McDonough as much.
At that point, I think the situation was so dynamic that there was nothing anyone could do that would have been helpful in a lookout to help anyone else.
Their trigger points were being over run by the advancing flame front far sooner than anyone expected and Mr. McDonough for one could see his position and even his fall back position were in real danger so…he just started wandering around looking for a place to lay down and be burned alive.
In the meantime, Steed and Marsh were arguing whether the crew should play Russian Roulette with 5 of the six chambers with magnums in them, instead of 1 of the six chambers loaded like normal crazy people do when they play the game. Steed lost. Actually everyone lost…even me, and you.
I don’t think Steed needed a lookout to tell him what he could see for himself, they were descending into a roiling cauldron of smoke overflowing with fire, while overhead, burning embers and hot ash rained down on them from the pyroclastic event of Biblical proportions they were descending in to and then marching in front of.
Gary,
That sums it up pretty well. Steed WAS the Lookout.
Nothing much at all new was revealed during the family Staff Ride that we don’t/didn’t already know.
I was welcomed with disdain by most cadre and family members.
Something more about the Helms or Boulder Ranch as it is dubbed. That was called a bomb proof area by the bosses and was the area they were ordered to protect–It was their safe zone according to the opinions of the main honcho directors of said YH deadly fire. Of course no one admits to ordering Marsh who did order Steed to lead the crew down into an obvious violation of common sense and LCES rules of wild land fire fighting safety.
No one knows why they figured that as a bomb proof and safe area. The men on this site say that was not really bomb proof at all and was highly questionable as a safe zone for the men. It did not qualify in acreage, and the obvious scorching of buildings, damage to vehicles including burning off of tires made it even more questionable.
The only questions that people of the ilk of smoke jumpers, retired wild land fire fighting superintendents, wild land death fire investigators alike Dr. Ted Putnam want to know is why those men were possessed to do what any savvy wild land fire fighter would say–an absolute no do dangerous situation against all common sense and wild land fire fighting safe action. Dr. Putnam is looking at the human factors to keep this type action from happening. Others have looked at everything from fear of loss of job, to datura smoke (an old Indian recipe for inducing visions), to a bear scaring them down there and me I even consider that a bunch of aliens might have brain washed them into the unthinkable. Whatever the reasons, to know and understand them will save plenty of lives, property and resources including millions in tax dollars. When public servants create such disasters due to negligence in duty, then their actions need to be scrutinized. But these fellows that ran the Yarnell disaster feel they are above scrutiny. They are wrong.
Gary,
Great truth, right there! What we send our FNG’s ‘out there’ with (in terms of training) is pitiful. It really is a ‘luck of the draw’ on whether the FNG’s new work area contains experienced people who can care for them and raise them right. Sending (‘Funny’ New Guys) out with little to no required training to keep them safe is not a problem at all….until it is.
Buying a used hotshot crew carrier for $7,000 to transport your type 2 crew around the country raking in the dough is not a problem at all…until it is.
Creation of a ‘Wildland Division’ with a fuels crew in a city fire department, sending your crew around the country to bring the cabbage back home is not a problem at all…until it is.
A first year wff barely out of the training class running a saw falling trees in a remote area is not a problem at all…until it is.
Signing off on each others taskbooks without making certain people are qualified to operate in the specified leadership positions on wildfires is not a problem at all…until it is.
A USFS guard station at the top of a chute without adequate defensible space and a good plan with a wildfire in the vincinity is not a problem at all…until it is.
Managers that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground is not a problem at all…until it is.
What have I left out?
Woodsman
Well…you left out one thing I am still angry about. Does anybody think that young man (or his crew mates) who almost had his leg ripped off by huge part of the trunk of that tree that broke apart and caused him to subsequently bleed out was qualified to be part of a falling team anywhere…much less on the Shasta T? (Damn it, I just re-read your post and you did mention him.)
That wasn’t a problem…until it was. The difference between me (and probably you) and so many of these young people lately (and the GMIHC) is we were luckier than they were and we got a chance to grow up, in spite of the agencies we worked for.
I guess I am feeling relevant because I am in a position to blow the whistle on the USFS, having been raised by them at remote stations and on campaign fires. Now that I look back on it, I think we (the USFS) were luckier than we were good…and sometimes the luck ran out.
And it is still happening at either the same rate or maybe even an accelerated rate from when we literally didn’t know any better. Now we know better…so why is it still happening at such an alarming rate?
How many more young people have died as a result of being wildland firefighters since we began this thread…I think I have literally lost count?
1. The young man on the Shasta T (I apologize for not remembering his name, but WTKTT knows how to look it up real fast).
2. The young man on the Lolo Hotshots.
3. The three on the Twisp Fire plus one who was severely burned and is in for a lifetime of pain and disappointment for his full potential that will never be realized.
4. Two of the Beartown WF crew plus at least one who is probably permanently disabled who is in for a lifetime of pain and disappointed for his full potential that will never be realized and another who will spend a long time in prison.
5. Who am I forgetting?
..
Gary,
“Now…did I have the potential to become a good employee? I would argue that yes…I did. Was I given the minimum amount of training that was needed to get me up to a minimally acceptable level of performance…no. ”
What I’m hearing you say is that your initial training was suboptimal. (I couldn’t help myself. Haha! And, I know IT IS NO LAUGHING MATTER, IT’S HOW MANAGEMENT KILLS GOOD PEOPLE!)
Woodsman
Yes, suboptimal is not a word I have ever used in a sentence, but that is what is was…suboptimal. And the really sad part…is I don’t believe it was the fault of the bosses (either the FMO or Ranger) I worked for during my first season on the job.
In fact, I have the highest respect for them, they were both outstanding front line firefighters in management positions I kept running into on big fires for years all over the country. They were given very little money for training and hard targets to meet with what they were given..
It’s the system. It’s our employers…the taxpayers and voters. That’s who has to change the system…and they won’t because they don’t want to spend any more money on government…in fact, they want to spend a lot less.
And FYI – the dumb ass who was supposed to train me to make LE contacts was on a detail from…drum role…you guessed it…R-5, California, so he didn’t really care whether I lived or died once his detail was up and he was in fact, gone in a few days and I never saw him again.
I think it is kind of funny now, instead of learning how to make LE contacts, I spent the day weeding little tufts of grass in the middle of a big field…in the middle of the forest…in the middle of nowhere. Even though I was still wet behind the ears, I could spot busy work when it hit me in the face. But I didn’t really care…I was wearing a brand new USFS uniform, I had a BADGE and I was jazzed to be on board and I was ready for a ride!
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 18, 2016 at 12:47 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> FYI – The United States Forest Service that YOU people fund…staffs and maintains
>> an entire division called the Missoula Equipment Development Center (MEDC)
>>
>> So…WTKTT, MEDC is where I would start looking for the guilty parties if I were you.
>> As goes the USFS…so goes the wildland firefighting community.
Well… after doing a little more ‘research’… it turns out that the official ‘Crew Carrier’ specifications might have STARTED with the MEDC group, but the absolute LATEST revision(s) of these ‘Crew Carrier’ specifications have actually been coming out of the USFS ‘San Dimas’ Technology Center.
There HAVE been some ‘changes’ to this ‘spec’ since 2011… but the ‘Crew Compartment Mounting’ specifications ( including the REQUIRED ‘Secondary Safety System’ to prevent Crew Compartment DETACHMENT ) have not changed at all since 2011.
Here is the latest ‘February, 2016’ Crew Carrier specs from the USFS’s ‘San Dimas’ Technology Center…
U.S.D.A. Forest Service
National Technology And Development Center, San Dimas
Apparatus Body Only Specification
Ten Person Crew Carrier – Supersedes August 2015
Ten Person Crew Carrier
Apparatus Body Only Specification
Issue Date: February 2016
Supersedes: August 2015
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/equipment/508_BodySpecification_CrewCarrier.pdf
From that February, 2016 document…
———————————————————-
5.6
Body Mounting
5.6.1
The crew carrier body module shall be mounted utilizing spring mounts and shear plate mounts to allow for a degree of independent movement between the body frame and the chassis frame. The body shall be mounted at six mounting points. There shall be four spring mounting points at the forward end of the body. There shall be two shear plate type mounting points at the aft end of the body module.
5.6.2
The mounts at the forward end of the body shall be comprised of a two-piece design, fabricated from steel plate, with the upper section welded to the body module sub-frame and the lower section bolted to the exterior vertical surface of the chassis frame rails. The upper mount section shall be designed to nest within the lower mount section. The body mount sections shall be aligned and connected by properly sized Grade 8 bolts, equipped with an appropriate tension rating spring, flat washers and a locking nut.
5.6.2.1
Four mounts of this design shall be provided, two on each side of the body.
5.6.3
The mounts at the aft end of the body shall be comprised of vertical steel plates minimum that are welded to the body sub-frame and bolted to the exterior vertical surface of the chassis frame rails. These mounts shall extend rearward horizontally to incorporate the rear step supports and rear tow eyes.
5.6.3.1
Two mounts of this design shall be provided, one on each side of the body.
5.6.4
The body may be isolated from the chassis frame by using 3/4 inch thick rubber, vulcanized to 1/4 inch steel plate. The steel plate shall be welded or otherwise permanently affixed to the body frame.
5.6.5
All mounting nuts, bolts, and washers required for complete crew carrier body installation shall meet or exceed SAE and industry standards. All of the mounting hardware shall be plated to reduce corrosion. ALL nuts shall be Stover (TM) style lock nuts.
5.6.6
A secondary retention system, consisting of four 0.375 inch diameter minimum woven aircraft cable loops with bolted clamp connector, shall be installed to prevent the crew carrier body and frame from completely separating from the chassis frame in the event of an accident where the primary system fails.
Two cable loops shall be installed at the forward end of the body, one on each side, and two cable loops shall be installed at the aft end of the body, one on each side. Any wiring, wiring harnesses or air lines adjacent to or in close proximity to the cables shall have adequate sheathing to prevent damage.
———————————————————-
NOTE: ‘0.375 inch diameter’ corresponds to 3/8″ cable diameter when ‘ordering’ aircraft cable.
Now notice the following from that SAIT ‘final report’ regarding the 2012 BLM rollover in Taos, New Mexico.
Even this BLM Crew Carrier that ‘rolled over’ was using BELOW SPEC ‘aircraft cable’ for its REQUIRED ‘Secondary Retention System’.
The SAIT report on the accident says this BLM Crew Carrier was only using 1/4″ diameter aircraft cable for its ‘Secondary Retention System’ versus the REQUIRED ( THICKER ) diameter of 3/8″ aircraft cable…
———————————————————-
3. Crew Compartment
Considering the circumstances the structural integrity of the crew compartment is very good. The mounting system sustained substantial damage.
The crew compartment of this vehicle is attached at four points (one at each corner). Each attachment has two bolts/nuts with springer style mounts to allow movement of the body compartment to provide less rigidity for a smoother ride and less chance of breaking structural parts.
In addition to the body mounts, the body is equipped with a SECONDARY retention devises
at each mount.
These are made from approximately 1/4 inch steel cable and in place to help keep the body from DETACHING in the event of a failing body mount.
———————————————————-
1/4″ inch diameter steel cable is NOT 3/8″ inch diameter cable.
It’s THINNER and WEAKER than what the specification REQUIRES.
So… if the USED Crew Carriers that the “Beartown Firefighters” purchased in April of 2011 from Albuquerque, New Mexico really were two of the ones that New Mexico’s BLM was ‘auctioning off’ in that same timeframe… then there is a HIGH LIKELIHOOD that even IF these Crew Carriers that “Beartown” was purchasing ( for only $7,000 each ) actually HAD the REQUIRED ‘Secondary Retention System’ installed ( and there is still no evidence they actually DID )… they *might* have still been getting SUB-STANDARD equipment that was using the 1/4 diameter aircraft cable as a ‘Secondary Retention System’ versus the REQUIRED ‘thicker’ 3/8″ diameter cabling system.
When it comes to tensile strength ( breaking strength )… there is a BIG difference between 1/4″ aircraft cable and the ( REQUIRED ) 3/8″ cable.
Notice in the chart below that the additional 1/8 inch diameter that would increase a 2/8″ ( 1/4″ ) cable diameter to the REQUIRED 3/8″ diameter doesn’t just produce just a corresponding 1/3 increase in tensile strength.
The additional 1/8″ of diameter actually DOUBLES THE TENSILE STRENGTH…
7×19 AIRCRAFT CABLE
Size / Weight per Ft. (Lbs.) / 7×19 Galv. Breaking Strength / 7×19 Stainless Breaking Strength
1/4″ / .110 / 7000 Lbs. / 6400 Lbs.
3/8″ / .243 / 14440 Lbs./ 12000 Lbs.
So if any Crew Carrier is out there using a ‘Secondary Retention System’ with just 1/4″ aircraft cable instead of the REQUIRED 3/8″ cable… then it is operating at only HALF the ‘tensile strength’ it SHOULD be using to keep that Crew Compartment from being EJECTED off the chassis during an ‘accident’.
And if any Crew Carriers are out there operating WITHOUT even a 1/4″ diameter ‘Secondary Retention System’… then in the event of fatalities related to the separation of the Crew Compartment from the chassis… charges of “Vehicular Homicide” can/should NOT just be considered for whoever the poor slob was who was driving the thing.
This is an excellent research paper that delves in detail into the Leadership Decisions and Outcomes of the fatal 1994 South Canyon Fire where 14 WFF’s died. The fire weather, fire behavior, leadership, and human factors parallels between the South Canyon Fire and the YH Fire have always been astounding.
The examination provided in this research paper is how the YH Fire and all other wildland fire fatality fires should have been and should be examined. Imagine the YH Fire decisions and outcomes using this examination style.
The link with selected excerpts from the following research paper titled is below:
Developing Leaders for Decision Making Under Stress: Wildland Firefighters in the South Canyon Fire and Its Aftermath
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr9/lsr9_leaders.pdf
The abstract: “To identify the sources of ineffective leadership decisions, we focus on ten decisions
made by a leader of a wildland firefighter crew during the fatal South Canyon fire of
July 5–6, 1996. The decisions of team leaders in fire zones are unusually clear-cut and
consequential for the goals of the enterprise, but they are not unlike decisions faced by
managers of most organizations. We suggest that three factors—underpreparation, acute
stress, and ambiguous authority—can result in suboptimal decisions by team leaders on
a fireline. Through detailed evaluation of the team leader’s ten most consequential
decisions in the South Canyon fire, we conclude that five were relatively optimal for the
triple objectives of safety, speed, and suppression, but five others proved suboptimal.
Much of their suboptimality is traced to the fact that the team leader was undertrained
for leadership decision making, faced intense stress, and operated without clear
authority. In the wake of this firefighting disaster—14 men and women lost their lives—
the fire service created a development program using both classroom and experiential
methods for preparing its leaders to make good and timely decisions. The South Canyon
fire and its aftermath point to the value of explicit preparation in leadership decisions by
both fire services and business schools as part of their efforts to enhance strategic
thinking and other essential leadership attributes for achieving organizational goals in
high stress environments.”
MICHAEL USEEM – Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania
JAMES COOK – U.S. Forest Service and National Interagency Fire Center
LARRY SUTTON – U.S. Bureau of Land Management and National Interagency Fire Center
“Our objective is neither to criticize nor commend the decisions taken on the mountain, but rather to
study them for what can be learned from them. Our language may appear critical or complementary at times, but it is intended to reveal enduring aspects of effective leadership decision making rather than affixing blame or praise. To wildland fire-fighters, those who fell in the line of duty are heroes: They placed themselves in harm’s way to protect others and paid the ultimate price. Yet firefighters also feel it is their duty to unflinchingly examine past tragedies to determine what went wrong in order to prevent similar calamities in the future, and since leadership decisions were a critical factor, attention must be directed at them.”
“Our method for helping to draw the roadmap for effective leadership decision making is to examine
the events of the South Canyon fire in sufficient detail to pinpoint the critical decisions and then
extrapolate their implications for improving leadership decision making in other institutions, including company management. Weick (1993, 1995) used a similar terrain and method to establish the importance of what he termed organizational “sensemaking”—the effort by people to make their
world understandable and accountable. The collapse of sensemaking during the 1949 blow-up in
Montana proved to be a critical factor, Weick discovered, in the fatal consequences that followed.
“The Mann Gulch disaster,” he found (1993: 649), “can be understood as a dramatic failure of leadership,” and as we turn to the South Canyon fire disaster, it too can be understood as a failure of
leadership. In this instance, we trace the leadership failure not to the collapse of organizational
sensemaking but to suboptimal leadership decsion making.”
The research paper promotes the Wildland Fire Leadership Development Program and its concepts in all fields that require good, sound leadership and decision-making.
The CA Redding Hot Shot Crew, a National Training Crew, has adopted the South Canyon Fire Staff Ride as an annual event since 2003. This is a quote from one of its participants and his experience: ““ENABLED ME TO IDENTIFY THE ERROR CHAINS AND HOPEFULLY GIVEN ME THE STRENGTH TO BREAK THEM BEFORE SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS AGAIN.”” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“The premier criterion for decision making by fire crew leaders and incident commanders is the
safety of their team.”
“In firefighting, the clock is one of the main enemies. Hesitation or equivocation may do more than delay a solution: They can radically compound the problem.”
“Consider one adversary of good decisions: overconfidence, a moment when a leader believes that a decision outcome is more likely than the factual situation would predict.”
“Tension is thus ever-present in a fire zone, and since team leaders carry personal responsibility for the lives of others, their stress can become acute. Research has confirmed that when individuals are under time pressure or performing multiple tasks at the same time, they are more likely to take suboptimal decisions for a host of reasons (including a reluctance to search for relevant information), and much of the stress experienced by firefighters is a direct product of the urgent and diverse demands imposed on crew leaders and incident commanders when confronted by a fast-evolving fire (Janis & Mann, 1977; Finucane, Alhakami, Slovic, & Johnson, 2000; Gilbert, 2002).”
“The five suboptimal decisions by contrast undermined the same four attributes: Don Mackey fell
short of the strategic attentiveness to the fire environment essential for leading his team (Decision
2); executed an excessively risky strategy (Decision 4); mobilized firefighters onto a dangerous terrain
(Decision 5); did not sharpen strategic awareness of who was in charge (Decision 6); and did not think
strategically about the threatening weather (Decision 7).”
“If we had focused on Mackey’s leadership attributes rather than the underlying leadership decisions, we would have run the risk of being misled by the attributes if they were only modestly associated with the underlying decisions. What may look like good leadership from the outside can
sometimes mask poor leadership decisions on the inside.”
“Leadership attributes can thus be misleading in predicting actual leadership decisions—and thus
dangerously deceptive since they would sometimes appear to be good predictors.”
In closing: “Whether on the slope of Storm King Mountain, in the boardroom of Enron, or on the battlefield of Antietam, readers will find it analytically useful to focus on specific leadership decisions and their impact on the goals of the enterprise. We should seek to learn more about how leadership decisions within such settings can be critical to the successes or setbacks of an organization—and how they can be improved.”
“Organizations would themselves benefit from an improved appreciation for what best contributes to
quality leadership decision making within their walls. With better understanding, programs can be
better designed to help incident commanders and enterprise managers better avert the unforced errors to which they are prone when working under stress and ambiguity. While not overlooking the
importance of error chains, reduced sensemaking, and organizational bottlenecks, the U.S. agencies
responsible for firefighting are now seeking to prepare their field leaders for quality decisions in the
challenging moments yet to come—and other organizations would do well to consider the same.”
Mr. Robert #2,
My opinion of this ‘research’ paper on South Canyon is that it sucks. It’s garbage.
This sort of writing always cracks me up. It’s a prime example of the results of a bunch of dudes collaborating and trying to out-do each other with snazzy catch-phrases, ambiguous words, and generally attempting to see how sophisticated they can sound to the reader while saying nothing at all. I know this type of writing well and it’s common for government/academic types to churn this stuff out in mass quantity. I thought this writing style to be so humorous that back in the day, I used to come up with a couple of pages of it myself to send back up the chain to managers for the fun of it. My favorite was to do this for ‘self-evaluations.’ These ‘self-evaluations’ were of course designed so that the self-absorbed, better-than-everyone-else, egomaniacs didn’t have to do it themselves, they could just re-phrase the form you just sent them.
Sorry bro, it’s crap. It’s classic ‘management speak.’ I went to business school as well so I have been exposed to this style of ‘research.’ Management by objectives, etc. etc.
“Suboptimal leadership decision making?” To me, this is another way in saying that nobody did anything wrong per se, their decisions were merely ‘suboptimal.’ In fact, I appreciate you posting it because it tells me that wildfire management has been ineffective at tragedy prevention for decades while at the same time being hyper-optimally effective at sounding super-smart, protecting their big salary and perks, & screwing the little guy.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woods Man,
Obviously, I have a different take on the issue. I have seen a lot of good come from this.
Yes, WFF are still getting themselves killed, and many of them from the same old things, as pointed out so clearly when comparing the July 1994 South Canyon Fire to the June 2013 YH Fire.
I am still at a loss for understanding yours (and others’) obsession with throwing down the ‘victim card’ and blaming others for what they were responsible for.
When someone buys a car and gets into an accident because of DRIVER ERROR (not mechanical defects), WHO is responsible?
The MVD bureaucrat that issued him his driver’s license?
The insurance salesman who issued him an insurance policy?
The car salesperson that sold him the car?
Thanks for your comments.
Hmmm…if an airline puts an unqualified pilot at the controls with pencil whipped quals (he had only previously flown as a fill in pilot but he got stoned and drunk at the controls and that caused his previous airline to go out of business in the middle of the tourist season), who has an inferiority complex who always plays one up (always out to prove that he and his crew are better than any other airline crew), have both a drug and a serious alcohol problem and who is currently off the wagon, but in denial as to his current status, has an anger management problem, resents and rebels against authority, has a very dark side, is uncommunicative with others, both supervisors and subordinates, had a God complex, and he takes off without enough fuel to make the flight, or the controls in proper working condition from his pre-flight inspection, takes out the pilot hand book and then systematically breaks almost every rule that has ever been developed by the FAA or the NTSB over decades of previous air disasters etc. and so forth and then he flies the fucking plane into the side of the mountain after his co-pilot said, “Hey, if you keep it up, you are going to fly this fucking plane into the side of the mountain and kill all of us” are you going to blame his crew, the flight attendants, the navigator, and the flight mechanics and ground crew who hopped on board? Or are you going to blame the airline that gave that habitual fuck up his wings? In other words, do we blame Andreas Lubitz for doing what crazy people do? Or do we blame German Wings and Luftansa, because they ignored all of the warning signs and let him keep flying? Nobody is suing the Lubitz estate, everybody is suing German Wings and Luftansa. So…
And thank you…just for being you.
Robert #2
I HOPE there is a lot of good coming from somewhere to get down to brass tacks in order to stop the pattern of wildland firefighter deaths, but what I read in the report by 2 representatives of federal land management agencies and 1 from the Wharton School of Business at Penn is just more of the same. I don’t care for the investigative method of sense-making or watered-down/blameless templates as I believe it doesn’t do justice to truth. Uncensored truth is the path to learning and improvement. I’m interested in real change to the system.
I’ll go out on a limb and assume (I know) that you may be referencing the Beartown fatalities in your example of driver error. Let me know if I got that wrong & we can work through another example.
You said:
“I am still at a loss for understanding yours (and others’) obsession with throwing down the ‘victim card’ and blaming others for what they were responsible for.”
Fair enough. Let’s talk it out. Your interpretation of me (and others) “throwing down” the “victim card” and blaming ‘others for what they were responsible for” should be easy to clear up. Of course your mileage may vary and it’s very possible that our thoughts on the matter will never overlap…but let’s try anyway.
It’s possible for many parties to share different levels of blame in an accident. Your example is very simplistic & there is not many facts to work with. However, there are some facts available for analysis concerning the Beartown crew carrier accident. My intention is for blame to rest with the appropriate party or parties. In order to answer your assertion of me “throwing down the victim card” (which I will assume – I know- that you believe I’m “throwing it” for the driver of the crew carrier that crashed, Michael Johnson), you must accept the possibility the end result of the crash contained many causal factors both direct & indirect. If you cannot do that then I suppose this is just ‘for the sport of it.’
Was Mr. Johnson driving the crew carrier when it crashed and was he as the operator of that vehicle responsible for control of the vehicle? Yes, he was. Accidents like these are seldom as simplistic as your example and this incident is no different. Here are some questions that hopefully will invoke some thought into the many direct and indirect causal factors to the Beartown accident, the answers of which are not fully known at the present time, I’d wager:
Was speed a factor in the crash and if so were there any outside influences on the manner in which the driver operated the vehicle? If there were outside influences on the manner in which the driver operated the vehicle, what were they and why?
Did the vehicle maintain its design integrity for safety of the occupants as per the standard when it was manufactured? If not, why not?
What is the accepted culture of the crew with regards to drugs and alcohol use? Work hours? Work/rest considerations? Driver qualifications?
Who was the setting the pace for the convoy?
What were the expectations of the ‘home unit’ of Beartown firefighters revenue generation wise?
Who sponsors and trains the Beartown firefighters? What is their attitude towards safety and risk?
As you will hopefully see by now, there are many factors to consider when studying this particular accident which should be taken into account if one intends to paint as accurate a portrait as possible of the events leading up to the time of the crash and the crash itself.
I can use other incidents as well:
1. The brand spanking new guy falling trees in the Shasta Trinity – did I ‘throw the victim card” on that one?
Tell you what, explain my claim of victimhood in more detail and maybe we can clear it up. Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Thanks for the details, much more than I considered. I try and keep it at a more basic level.
There’s a scientific principle that covers that, Abscoms Razor, or something like that.
And I don’t have the time.
You and Gary are a lot smarter than I am.
Occam’s razor (or Ockham’s razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the simpler one is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is.
Thank you Robert…or may I call you Bob?
Robert please.
Thanks Bob.
Robert #2,
Please let me know when and if you find the time to “go there.” Thank you. I do appreciate it.
I would also like it if you would somehow be able to find a way to deal with the “gag order” or directive to not talk about the Strawberry fire. I’m also curious how that works?
Is it frustrating to know that your employer, the USFS, prevents you from being able to share information that may help prevent such tragedies from happening in the future? The reason I ask is I really do think you care about saving wildland firefighter’s lives…(hell, you’re a safety officer for God’s sake!) Seriously, I do. That’s why I’m guessing that it’s very difficult to be in the position you are in with that one and many more. In fact, if the orders from above are as bad as it sounds, maybe you shouldn’t talk about it at all? That way, you won’t have people like me trying to drag something out of you making it harder to deal with.
Have you put any thought into creating an alias and sharing what you know anonymously? Do you believe it would help get closer to solving the problem while shielding yourself from negative repercussions from management? I’m just thinking out loud on how you can still contribute to the cause.
Thanks!
Woodsman
I sure would have liked to have been a ‘fly on the wall’ when ‘RTS’ walked into the room with CRaP leader ‘Mike Dudley’ for his ‘interview’ and the ‘perspective from Division T Safety Officer’ regarding that fatal event at the ‘Strawberry Fire’.
Who do you think spoke first?
If it was RTS… it might have been something like…
“I’m BAAAAAACK!”.
If it was Mike Dudley… might have been.
“Oh… it’s YOU”.
Since Mike Dudley is now known to be the ‘lead’ of this CRaP investigation into Justin’s DEATH… it’s a given that unless the people who DO know what happened find the spinal fluid to speak up… we ( and the poor man’s loved ones ) are NEVER going to know what REALLY happened.
Another of Ivan Pupulidy’S research papers and the genesis of the CRAP ‘Investigative’ process.
‘OPERATIONALIZATION OF A SYSTEMIC AND HUMAN PERFO[R]MANCE ANALYSIS FOR SERIOUS
ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION – US FOREST SERVICE PANTHER FIRE FATALITY INVESTIGATION”
Ivan A. Pupulidy (June 2009)
LUND UNIVERSITY – SWEDEN
http://www.humanfactors.lth.se/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/thesis-2009-Pupulidy-Operationalization_of_Systemic_and_Human_Performance_Analysis.pdf
You’ll notice in the original title , they spelled it ‘PERFOMANCE.’
“This Thesis answers the question: Can Human Performance and Systemic analysis of accidents be formally accepted in an organization which has traditionally focused on the “Root Cause” model of accident investigation and will this type of analysis have the potential to be incorporated in future accident investigations?”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
September 18, 2016 at 5:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Another of Ivan Pupulidy’S research papers and the genesis of
>> the CRAP ‘Investigative’ process.
Thanks for that. It’s ALWAYS interesting to see where ‘CRaP’ really ‘come from’.
And speaking of “Where CRaP is GOING to come from”…
Guess who is now in charge of investigating exactly why Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe actually DIED just a month ago, on August 17, 2016, at the ‘Strawberry ( Creek ) Fire’?
( Drumroll please… )
Mr. “We don’t want to go there” Mike Dudley of the US Forestry Service.
Just 18 days ago USFS employee Brit Rosso ( You know…the one who told everyone to please OPENLY TALK ABOUT Yarnell after it happened… and then was in charge of the YHF ‘Staff Ride’ and based it solely on the “No one did anything wrong, move along” SAIR report ) posted an ‘Updated 72 Hour Report’ on Mr. Justin Beebe’s DEATH.
It is the first document that now NAMES the ‘leader’ of the ‘CRaP’ team that has been put together to investigate Beebe’s DEATH.
Things to NOTE about this ‘updated 72-hour’ report.
1. It is no longer using the word ‘snag’ to describe the tree that killed Justin Beebe, like the other ‘documents’ have so far. It is now ( officially ) just a ‘falling tree’ of some kind.
2. It is now officially putting Justin Beebe onto a ‘saw team’ that day… and putting a ‘chainsaw’ in his hands at the moment he was killed.
3. It DOES point out that it took an HOUR AND A HALF to get an EVAC organized… but by the time that EVAC was completed… Justin Beebe was DEAD.
Here is that recently-posted document, reprinted below in its entirety just in case it happens to ‘vanish’ ( like documents are known to do up there at this WLFLLC ).
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center – Established 2002
Motto: “A lesson is learned when we CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR”
Strawberry Tree Strike Fatality – August 13, 2016
Updated Strawberry Fire Fatality – 72 Hour Report
Uploaded: 08-31-2016
By: Brit Rosso – Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=3b27d0cb-25d2-5daf-e970-707477a9f2ea&forceDialog=0
The entire ‘contents’ of this ‘updated’ 72-Hour report….
———————————————————————————-
Forest Service Intermountain Region
324 25th Street Ogden, UT 84401
File Code: 5180
Route To: ( No entry )
Subject: Updated 72-Hour Preliminary Report – Strawberry Fire
To: Bill Kaage – NPS Division Chief, Fire and Aviation Management
Lenise Largo – USFS Deputy Chief, Washington Office
From: Mike Dudley – Strawberry Coordinated Response Protocol Team Leader
Date: August 30, 2016
THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE
Location: Great Basin National Park
Date of Occurrence: August 13, 2016
Time of Occurrence: Approximately 1600 hours
Local Agency Administrator: Steve Mietz
Activity: Fireline Operations / Chainsaw Operations
Number of Fatalities: 1
Property Damage: None
Narrative:
At approximately 1600 hours, Justin Beebe, a Lolo lnteragency Hotshot crew member, was hit by a falling tree.
He was a member of a saw team working to secure a section of fireline and was actively engaged as a sawyer when he was struck sustaining fatal injuries.
Line EMTs and paramedics assigned to the division responded and a short haul capable helicopter was launched. A short-haul extraction was initiated at 1730 and the injured firefighter was transported to helibase. Life Flight paramedics, in consultation with a physician in Ely, declared the firefighter deceased at 1746.
An lnteragency Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) Team in-briefed with the Great Basin National Park staff, local responders, and the Strawberry Fire incident management team (Great Basin Team 7 — DeMasters) at 0900 on August 16,2016. lnterviews have been completed with pertinent staff and the team is continuing with the CRP process.
The interviews were jointly conducted by both NPS and USFS personnel under the CRP process in Ely and at the employee’s home units.
Signed by: MIKE DUDLEY
Strawberry CRP Team Leader
cc: William_Kaage (at) nps.gov, Keith_newlin (at) nps.gov, scschlientz (at) fs.fed.us
———————————————————————————-
ADDITIONAL NOTE: There is NO SIGN ( yet ) of the ‘Delegation of Authority’ document that transferred the responsibility for investigating this fatality from the ‘National Park Service’ to USFS employee Mike Dudley and his CRaP team.
WTKTT,
I was on the Strawberry Fire as a Line Safety (SOFR) and worked in Division T (Tango) that day near the Division A (Alpha) break where this incident occurred. I also visited the fatality site a few days later.
Division T provided our 2 Line EMT’s and a Line Paramedic as the Emergency Responders because we were much closer to the incident. I assisted with communications because I was the only one with cell service.
I am very limited in what I am ‘allowed’ to say because I was involved, albeit tangentially.
I will say that the 72-Hour Report is MOSTLY accurate.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on September 19, 2016 at 11:18 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I am very limited in what I am ‘allowed’ to say because I
>> was involved, albeit tangentially.
Please explain.
I just took a moment to check… and the ‘First Amendment’ is still there ( at least it’s still showing up online, anyway ).
WHO is it ( specifically ) that is currently TELLING you to “Keep your mouth shut”?
Basic free speech rules that apply outside the workplace sometimes have little relevance for public employees.
Waters v. Churchill, 511 U.S. 661 (1994)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/92-1450.ZO.html
If you are trying to quote that caselaw as some kind of ‘justification’ for you being afraid to exercise your First Ammendment rights… I think you missed this paragraph…
There is NO DISPUTE in this case about when speech by a government employee IS protected by the First Amendment: To be protected, the speech must be on a matter of PUBLIC CONCERN, and the employee’s interest in expressing herself on this matter must NOT be outweighed by any injury the speech could cause to ” `the interest of the State ( or any Government Agency ), as an employer, in promoting the efficiency of the PUBLIC SERVICES IT PERFORMS through its employees.’ “
The FULL details and the FULL circumstances surrounding the DEATH of PUBLIC EMPLOYEE Justin Beebe ( while working in a PUBLIC WORKPLACE ) and FOR agencies that provide a PUBLIC SERVICE is a (quote) “matter of PUBLIC CONCERN“.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on September 20, 2016 at 8:26 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Basic free speech rules that apply outside the
>> workplace sometimes have little relevance
>> for public employees.
So ( and you stop me where I am wrong, please )… I’m going to take that ‘answer’ as positive confirmation that someone who you currently consider to be your ’employer’ has specifically TOLD you not to ‘talk about’ what happened on the ‘Strawberry Fire’.
But I still think you missed the point of my question.
DID someone ( specific ) TELL you to “Keep your mouth” shut about this… or are YOU just ASSUMING you are “better off doing that”?
Big difference.
If you WERE ‘specifically informed’ to “Keep your mouth shut” about the Strawberry Fire.. then the obvious ‘followup’ question would then be… HOW were you ‘informed’?
Email? Text? Memorandum? Verbal only?
Announcement at a briefing… like the one where the Samoans sang and danced ( were you there for that one the day after Beebe’s DEATH? )
Taken into a room and just TOLD this?
I’m just trying to get a feel for how this ‘Keep your mouth shut’ process actually WORKS.
FYI – I was asked why I thought the Go Fund Me site for our miscreant went down and here is my take.
“I am going to take a guess that they ran afoul of the same Go Fund Me policy that I did with mine. I forget exactly how the policy read, but I think is is designed to keep any hint of controversy or ugliness off their site.
They want to be known for helping children and puppies and everyone to survive cancer…not make bail because they were coked up, drinking and smoking pot while they killed their friends. At least we made a stand and showed whoever is interested that we care about the little guy and even though he was wrong, he is one of the least culpable in this tragedy.”
My donation to Mr. Johnson just got refunded, so now I am sure that my guess is what actually happened.
So…that is one more thing the completely preventable accident, the deaths of two WF and it sounds like the permanent disability of at least one more WF AND the Yarnell Hill Fire have in common. Both incidents are too ugly and controversial to solicit money on Go Fund Me.
And I know this has all come as a big shock to YOU people, but sometimes…when you hire your wildland firefighters from the bottom of the barrel of society, they perform like they came from the bottom of the barrel of society….SURPRISE!
And thank God I had so many good people on my crews but guess what? A large percentage of them came from the bottom the barrel as well and it was my job to melt them into a cohesive, highly motivated and disciplined wildland firefighting force to challenge Mother Nature on her turf and live to relive those challenges in later years.
No…I wasn’t a very nice guy much of the time. I was as mean as I needed to be to get the job done. You need to change how you hire your wildand firefighters. Don’t look for the lowest common denominator in people who will work for the least wages and benefits. Or…just keep it up and quit being so surprised when things go to hell in a hand basket.
FYI…USFS normally can’t hand pick employees like the Granite Mountain Hotshots could, they take whoever the personnel office sends them…there are reams of rules and regulations that prevent the kind of selection that Granite Mountain routinely engaged in.
I wasn’t even able to hire all of the Happy Jack Hotshots who wanted to go to Santa Fe because of how fucked up the hiring process is. And that was when it was a lot better than it is now. There was a real Jesus Freak trend on the Granite Mountain crew that could not be duplicated on a federal crew…for better or for worse.
I happen to think it is for the worse because a hotshot crew could take that same power and instead of looking for Jesus Freaks, or losers who wander in the door like Mr. McDonough did, they could look for the best hotshots, which would be a good thing.
But that is not going to happen because some people would abuse that power (and did systemically abuse that power in the past) and not hire women, Hispanics, African American, Native Americans or non Jesus Freaks or whoever. It is called equal opportunity. There are no easy answers that come cheap.
Or maybe bad people would even abuse that power to hire who they want to openly discriminate against non-Indians like the BIA and the tribes do every day with the blessing of the federal government.
But…if YOU people wouldn’t have been looking for the lowest common denominator when you hired me to do your dirty work, there is a pretty good chance you wouldn’t have hired me…ever.
So…another thing I learned along the way is to be careful what you ask for…because you might get it.
Oh…and one more thing. YOU people were really lucky that you were able to hire RTS, Bob and me, to do your dirty work. In spite of whatever shortcomings the three of us had, I think we did a pretty good job for you.
Especially RTS…he can be a real DICK, but he did that job for 27 years! Hear me now and believe me later (Hans and Franz on SNL) you could have stuck a fork in me after 10 years…I was DONE.
There was NOTHING…I ever did on the most challenging counter drug operation or serving the most dangerous search warrant that ever came close to what I did as a hotshot. And I made 2 or 3 times as much money (that followed me into retirement) and I had more perks than I am crazy enough to list here (the less you know…the better) in this format. I can’t think of any perks I had as a hotshot except for adoration…and that don’t feed the bulldog.
Gary,
You posted: “Especially RTS…he can be a real DICK, but he did that job for 27 years!”
A real DICK, really?
A Richard Cranium or a Ricardo Cabeza, at times, maybe, but definitely NOT a DICK.
And where did you come up with that one? What got me in that category?
Remember that BOSS spelled backwards is SSOB, Double SOB. We were there to be their Boss, their Supervisor, and NOT their ‘friend.’
And it was 26 years. Thanks
FYI – The United States Forest Service that YOU people fund…staffs and maintains an entire division called the Missoula Equipment Development Center (MEDC) (it is where Dr. Putnam worked for decades) who as far I know, do nothing but busy work when they are not developing and testing new equipment for wildland firefighters.
It is inconceivable for me to believe they are not the ones who were responsible for developing the concept and the specs for the crew carriers. I don’t know exactly when those crew carriers came into play, but back in my day, we rode in leased school buses except for one year when Bill Buck didn’t like the contract price and so we rode in an open cattle truck. By the following year, we had school buses that the Forest Service purchased and so they were painted the aqua marine green that has been discussed on this thread so many times.
I was always jealous after the fact because those crew carriers looked so cool and would have been so much more comfortable than school buses designed for children but now I realize how fortunate we were to never have been placed into a human clothes dryer just waiting for someone to turn it on so we could tumble dead.
So…WTKTT, MEDC is where I would start looking for the guilty parties if I were you. As goes the USFS…so goes the wildland firefighting community.
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 18, 2016 at 12:47 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> So…WTKTT, MEDC is where I would start looking for the guilty parties if I
>> were you. As goes the USFS…so goes the wildland firefighting community.
I agree.
The following ‘detailed specifications’ for ’10 Person Crew Carriers’ most likely came from the MEDC people.. but it remains astounding that ( as is typical of USFS documents like this )… there is absolutely NO MENTION of the actual ‘source’ of it in the document itself…
USDA FOREST SERVICE – SPECIFICATION
TEN ( 10 ) PERSON CREW CARRIER
SPECIFICATION DATE: FEBRUARY, 2012
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/equipment/ihc_vehicles/documents/usfs_10_person_crew_carrier_turnkey.pdf
As far as those 2 “Beartown” Crew Carriers goes…
Here ( again ) is the actual ‘motion’ from the actual April 21, 2011 Council MINUTES which approved the purchase of the two ‘Crew Carriers’ for the “Beartown Firefighters”… one of which was involved in the fatal rollover crash on August 27, 2016.
They were both purchased for just $14,000 ( $7,000 each ), from Albuquerque, NM.
——————————————————————————
MINUTES – KEWEENAW BAY INDIAN COMMUNITY
SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING – TRIBAL CENTER CONFERENCE ROOM
THURSDAY – APRIL 21, 2011 – 9:00 A.M.
A. Date: April 21, 2011
B. Call to Order: President Swartz called the meeting to order at 9:08 a.m.
C. Invocation: Lord’s Prayer and an Ojibwe prayer by Dale Shalifoe
D. Roll Call
E. Declaration of Quorum: President Swartz declared a quorum present and proceeded with the order of business.
F. Approval of Agenda: April 21, 2011
(snip)
J. New Business
2. President Swartz / Tom Chosa / Will Wiggins –
Crew Vans(2) and Radio Equipment (2) from Albuquerque, NM for the fire fighters
MOTION MADE BY EDDY EDWARDS TO APPROVE THE PURCHASE OF TWO CREW
CARRIERS IN THE AMOUNT OF $14,000.00 AND TO INCLUDE EQUIPMENT IN THE
AMOUNT OF $2,800.00. SUPPORTED BY SUSAN J. LAFERNIER.
TEN IN FAVOR (William E. Emery, Susan J. LaFernier, Toni J. Minton, Eddy Edwards,
Fred Dakota, Michael F. LaFernier, Sr., Gary F. Loonsfoot, Sr., Elizabeth “Chiz” Matthews,
Elizabeth D. Mayo, Isabelle H. Welsh),
OPPOSED – 0, ABSTAINING – 0, ONE ABSENT (Jerry Lee Curtis),
MOTION CARRIED.
——————————————————————————
As it turns out… there was a ‘BLM Auction’ out there in Albuqueque, New Mexico right around that time… and it’s starting to look like the BIA co-sponsored and BIA co-managed “Beartown Firefighters” Type 2 IA outfit just purchased their 2 Carriers from THAT BLM auction. Photos of the Crew Carriers being offered for sale by BLM, New Mexico are identical matches for the “Beartown” Carriers… right down to the front grilled and the make, model, year and ‘Crew Compartment’ dimensions and configuration.
And as it ALSO turns out… there was ANOTHER serious BLM ‘Crew Carrier’ rollover incident out there in New Mexico.
No one died… and only one person was seriously injured… but the CIRCUMSTANCES beared a close resemblance to what just happened on August 27, 2016 with this BIAco-sponsored and BIA co-managed “Beartown” Type 2 IA crew.
( Notice I keep repeating that this this Type 2 IA crew WAS both co-sponsored and co-managed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA )… because that is the TRUTH here and it bears repeating as often as possible ).
Even though no one died… and those WFFs were just ‘returning’ from a FEMA assignment helping to clean up from Hurricane Sandy ( not a fire )… that 2012 BLM Crew Carrier rollover was IMMEDIATELY ‘investigated’ with a full “Serious Accident Investigation Team”.
The final SAIR document from that ‘Crew Carrier rollover’ investigation is HERE…
Taos BLM Crew Carrier Rollover
Taos, NM – November 13, 2012
Serious Accident Investigation – Factual Report
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=223598a9-c368-4e3b-bc28-a5882eac508b
From that SAIR document…
—————————————————————————-
Finding 1: (Human)
Currently there is no methodology, agency policy, or standardized training in place for determining if an individual is sufficiently skilled to operate crew carriers (Working Capital Fund [WCF] Class 644) in the BLM.
It was revealed during the investigation that this was the 4th Crew Carrier accident since 2009 to the present year ( 2012 ) within the interagency fire community:
1. Crew Carrier rollover Klamath Interagency Hotshot crew, Highway 99, Los Molinos, CA, August 22, 2009.
2. Crew Carrier rollover Valyermo Hotshots, Lake Elsinore, CA, July 5, 2011
3. Crew Carrier head on collision, California Inmate Fire Crew, Highway 138, Santa Clarita, CA , November 23, 2011
.
4. Taos BLM Crew Carrier rollover, Type 2 IA Crew, Highway 68, Taos, NM , November 13, 2012.
Finding 2: (Human)
This was the driver’s first season operating a 10 passenger crew carrier.
Finding 3: (Human)
Through unknown mechanism the driver allowed the crew carrier to cross the right side fog line (white line on the road’s shoulder), resulting in the right side wheels (rear duals and front wheel) leaving the marked driving surface.
Finding 4: (Human)
As the driver attempted to maneuver the crew carrier back onto the driving surface, the driving action exceeded the operating limits of the crew carrier. This resulted in a loss of control leading to the rollover.
Finding 5: (Human)
Crew members 3, 4, and 6 were not restrained when the crew carrier was in motion. Failure to wear seat belts exacerbated the crew members’ injuries.
—————————————————————————-
Notice that ( of course ) this SAIR refuses to say WHY it all happened.
But the ‘unknown mechanism’ described in the report looks very much like the ‘driver’ was simply ‘falling asleep at the wheel’.
Basically exactly what happened with “Beartown”.
The moment the ‘driver’ realized the vehicle had ‘drifted’ off the RIGHT shoulder of the road, he over-corrected and the vehicle crossed into the OTHER lane. In this case… the BLM driver over-corrected AGAIN trying to get BACK into the right-hand land and that’s when the ‘top-heavy’ Crew Carrier rolled over.
But notice this other ‘section’ from this SAIR document…
————————————————————————–
3. Crew Compartment
Considering the circumstances the structural integrity of the crew compartment is very good. The mounting system sustained substantial damage.
The crew compartment of this vehicle is attached at four points (one at each corner). Each attachment has two bolts/nuts with springer style mounts to allow movement of the body compartment to provide less rigidity for a smoother ride and less chance of breaking structural parts.
In addition to the body mounts, the body is equipped with a secondary retention devises at each mount. These are made from approximately ¼ inch steel cable and in place to help keep the body from DETACHING in the event of a failing body mount.
The right front body mount welds were completely broken along with the secondary retention device.
The left front body mount was severely damaged, bent, and out of place, the secondary retention device was in place fully.
The left rear body mount had minor damage, and was only slightly shifted out of place and its secondary retention device was in place fully.
The right rear body mount sustained very little damage and was very close to its intended position with the secondary retention in place fully.
————————————————————————–
Notice the ATTENTION that was paid to ‘examining’ how the SECONDARY RETENTION SYSTEM performed during this 2012 Crew Carrier rollover.
That SECONDARY RETENTION SYSTEM was DESIGNED to keep the Crew Compartment from DETACHING from the main chassis in order to PREVENT the kind of “Human Clothes Dryer” rollover that would take place if it did ( as seen in the “Beartown” fatalities and was the ACTUAL reason for the fatalities ).
The report above represents the ‘minimum investigation’ that should be taking place RIGHT NOW into the “Beartown” rollover fatalities.
The report above traces the entire HISTORY of the vehicle… and all maintenance records… and they WERE making sure that ‘SECONDARY RETENTION SYSTEM’ was fully installed ( as REQUIRED’ ) and how it ‘performed’ in this accident.
So the question remains.
Did these “Beartown” Crew Carriers have…
1. The CORRECT ‘Springer’ BOLTS installed at the Crew Compartment mounts?
2. The full SECONDARY RETENTION SYSTEM installed?
It matters.
WTKTT,
Here’s couple more Crew Carrier incidents.
Here’s the 72-Hour Report for the June 30, 2004, Bitterroot (MT) Hot Shot Crew Carrier MVA incident.
Not surprisingly, the FULL report is missing from the Wildland Fire LLC site because the USFS would NOT allow it to be released.
https://higherlogicdownload.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/WILDFIRELESSONS/Bitterroot_Hotshot_MVA_72_Hour_Report.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJH5D4I4FWRALBOUA&Expires=1474245746&Signature=lvY1abjcjUjir8F4VcQ4LICboss%3D
The ONLY ones injured in this incident were those NOT wearing their seat belts!
Here’s a photo of the July 2011, USFS Valeyermo (CA) Hot Shot Crew Carrier rollover accident.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GTKQafJRba8/ThNLRVqrC8I/AAAAAAAABx4/G968Rj_r2N0/s1600/Crew-Carrier-crash.jpg
“9 ‘hotshot’ firefighters hurt when truck overturns near Palmdale
July 5, 2011 12:00:00 AM PDT
By Darsha Philips
PALMDALE, Calif. —
Nine firefighters were recovering Tuesday morning from an accident on a remote highway near Palmdale. Their truck rolled off the side of Mount Emma Road in the Angeles National Forest.
Broken glass and personal items spilled from the U.S. Forest Service crew buggy after it catapulted down an embankment off of Mount Emma Rd. in Palmdale.
Nine members of a “hotshot” crew from Valyermo were inside the crew buggy. Forest Service officials say all nine people were wearing their seatbelts.
“They do have seatbelts in the back and the front seats as well so they were strapped in. So luckily they had their seatbelts on when they did roll. It could have been a lot worse,” said U.S. Forest Service spokesperson Nathan Judy.
Skid marks on the road indicated where the crew buggy veered off as the crew was on the way back to a fire station at about 9:30 p.m. Monday when the accident happened.
California Highway Patrol officials say the driver swerved to avoid an animal in the road, then over-corrected, causing the vehicle to launch down the embankment, tumbling several times before landing on its side.
“Once it did roll, we did have three people that were trapped. They had to be extricated by L.A. County Fire,” said Judy. “Once that was done they were airlifted off.”
Six others were transported to area hospitals. All victims suffered only minor to moderate injuries.
According to the CHP, the driver was going about 60 miles per hour on Mount Emma Rd. Forest Service officials say they are still investigating the accident and do warn drivers to be extra careful when driving on deserted roads.
“For one, you don’t have the streetlights like you do down in the city,” said Judy. “It’s all pitch black, so if you have an animal that runs across the road, you have a split-second to try to react to it. Either you hit that animal, or you drive off the side of the road.”
Seven victims were treated and released from the hospital overnight. Two victims remained hospitalized Tuesday at L.A. County-USC Medical Center with neck and back injuries.”
Here’s a link for the ‘National Vehicle Body Manufacturing – Federal Project specifically dealing with wildland fire vehicles.
https://govtribe.com/project/national-vehicle-body-manufacturing/activity
“CCV” denotes Crew Carriers.
This GovTribe link specifically list the various manufacturers, PDF links for specifications and bids, and includes the same “USDA FOREST SERVICE
APPARATUS BODY ONLY SPECIFICATION, TEN (10) PERSON CREW CARRIER” document you linked below.
Thank you.
See this new post above showing that whether that official ‘Crew Carrier Specifications’ document ‘originated’ with MEDC or not… the LATEST versions are now coming from the USFS ‘San Dimas’ Research facility…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-347392
The post above also points out that since those ‘Crew Carrier’ Specifications were even first published… the ‘Secondary Retention System’ requires a minimum of 3/8 inch Aircraft Cable.
But the BLM Crew Carrier that rolled over in 2012 was only using 1/4 cable instead of the required 3/8″.
3/8″ aircraft cable doesn’t just provide a ‘1/3’ increase in ‘tensile’ ( breaking ) strength versus 1/4″ cable.
3/8″ aircraft cable has DOUBLE the ‘tensile’ strength of 1/4″ cable.
So if BLM was ‘lowering the standards’ for THEIR Crew Carriers there in New Mexico… then even if the “Beartown” Crew bought their Carriers USED from BLM in Albuquerque in 2012… and even IF those ‘Used’ Carriers still had any kind of ‘Secondary Retention System’… there’s a high likelihood the “Beartown” crew still got SUB-STANDARD equipment using the wrong diameter aircraft cable to keep the fucking Crew Compartment from being EJECTED off the vehicle chassis during an accident.
WTKTT,
Did you note that one of the last names of one of the dead WF (Schwartz) is the same as the Chairman of the Board (or some title like that) for that tribe? That might be why the tribe has turned their back on him. He might be even more fucked if he gets off the homicide charge and has to go back to the rez?
As in,
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-347028
Tribal Council Members: Warren C. Swartz, Jr., President Susan J. LaFernier, Vice-President Toni Minton, Secretary William E. Emery, Asst. Secretary Jennifer Misegan, Treasurer Larry J. Denomie III, CEO Doreen Blaker Elizabeth D. Mayo Michael F. LaFernier, Sr. Elizabeth (Chiz) Matthews Jerry Lee Curtis Frederick Dakota
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/08/27/two-wildland-firefighters-killed-in-minnesota-vehicle-accident/
The two deceased firefighters were identified Sunday by the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community as James F. Shelifoe, Jr., 23, of Baraga Michigan, and Alan J. Swartz, 25, of Baraga, Michigan.
Oh…and one more thing. Planting trees is a lot harder than it sounds and there is a lot more to it than just placing the green side up. I always hated that job. You have to be fast, and good, and it takes some real skill to do it right and it is repetitive, repetitive and more repetitive under some challenging conditions. That job and planting grass seed over hundreds of acres by hand, building fence, burning piles, cruising timber and marking trees, maintaining RAWS stations, organizing fire caches, etc. and so forth. There are a lot of shit jobs for forestry techs between fire seasons if you want to stay employed a little bit longer each year. It is certainly not all guts and glory.
As a small business owner in Voyeaurs National Park Ray,Minnesota I participated
in planting trees in that area. I did not receive payment for my services ; it was to
assist the community. I can attest to the long hours and hard work.
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 16, 2016 at 11:32 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> As in,
>>
>> Tribal Council Members: Warren C. Swartz, Jr., President
Meant to get back to you earlier… but a busy day on this end.
YES.
This ‘Warren C. Swartz’, who has been on the Tribal Council for a LOOONG time and ‘moved up’ from Assistant Secretary to Vice-President ( in January, 2005 ) and then actual ‘President’ of the KBIC Tribal Council ( in February of 2008 ) appears to be deceased ‘Beartown’ Firefighter Alan ‘AJ’ Swartz’s UNCLE.
Alan ‘AJ’ Swartz’s FATHER is “David Alan ‘Lebs’ Swarts”, who appears to be Council President Warren C. Swartz’s BROTHER.
Don’t have time to detail it right now… but suffice to say it is a VERY, VERY SMALL WORLD there on the “Keweenaw Bay Indian Reservation”.
It’s safe to say that if take just 3 or 4 ‘LAST NAMES’ alone…. then both the Tribal Council AND this “Beartown Firefighters” organization are simply “FAMILY BUSINESSES”. More about that later.
And this KBIC Tribal Council President Warren C. Swartz ( Deceased WFF Alan Swartz’s Uncle ) has his own ‘demons’.
On the very DAY before the ‘election’ that would finally make him ‘President’ of the KBIC Tribal Council… he was arrested for drunk driving AND possession of marijuana.
** WARREN ‘CHRIS’ SWARTZ – KBIC COUNSEL PRESIDENT
** ACCUSED OF DRUNK DRIVING AND MARIJUANA POSSESSION – 2009
ABC 10 NEWS – Baraga County, Keweenaw County, West UP
Article Title: KBIC President Accused of Drunk Driving
Published: December 1, 2009 6:15 pm
http://abc10up.com/kbic-president-accused-of-drunk-driving/
From that article…
————————————————————————————
The president of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community Tribal Council is accused of drunk driving just before election day.
Warren ‘Chris’ Swartz, Jr., is charged with operating while intoxicated, marijuana possession and having an open container.
He’s pleaded not guilty to those charges at his arraignment in Baraga County District Court.
Swartz is free on bond until his pre-trial conference, which is set for 3 weeks from today.
A week ago this past Saturday, State Police from the L’Anse Post pulled Swartz over for what they say was a minor equipment violation with his vehicle.
The charges all came out of that traffic stop.
The KBIC general election is a week from this coming Saturday, and Swartz
is actually up for re-election this year.
————————————————————————————
Swartz WON that election… and ( to this day ) remains the PRESIDENT of the KBIC Tribal Council.
Well…you made my point perfectly. Some tribes like the Navajo have the numbers (about 250,000 members) to take the money that comes with self determination and run with it without the BIA.
Although even their president from years ago, (I think his name was Peter McDonald) had Donald Trump taste in his bathroom fixture etc. in that everything was gold plated but he eventually went to federal prison for a long list of very serious crimes.
The smaller tribes that may only have a few dozen members are the ones who are really susceptible to being run like criminal enterprises instead of governmental entities.
In all tribes, extended families and clans play a major role in who is in charge, but the smaller the tribe and the bigger the clan, makes it really easy for a faction to get control and keep it for their nearly exclusive benefit.
Which sounds like has been, and continues to happen up in Beartown U.S.A.
Although it may just be a big coincidence since I am pretty sure Swartz has always been a very common last name for Native Americans. I read somewhere the first Indians to greet those at Plymouth Rock where Ethan and his brother Joel Swartz, so….who knows as Donald Trump likes to say, who knows? Oh…and “some people say” or “a lot of people say.”
OK…here is one of my stupid jokes just for my old friend RTS.
“A lot of people say that the Swartz brothers who greeted the pilgrims at Plymouth Rock were from one of the lost tribes of Israel that were discussed in the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith found buried in a field.”
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 17, 2016 at 12:39 pm
>> Gay Olson said…
>>
>> Well…you made my point perfectly. Some tribes like
>> the Navajo have the numbers (about 250,000 members)
>> to take the money that comes with self determination
>> and run with it without the BIA.
It’s hard to express what a ‘closed loop’ this particular ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ really is… especially for an ‘entity’ that considers itself to be also be a ‘Sovereign Nation’.
http://www.census.gov/aian/census_2000/census_2000_data_for_539_tribes.html
Keweenaw Bay Indian Community
Total population: 1,291 ( Male: 593 Female: 698 )
Median age ( years ): 31.8
Total Households: 487
Occupied housing units: 471
Average family size: 3.36
There are 729 ‘registered’ voters.
In the last major ‘Tribal Council’ election, held last December ( 2015 ),
533 (73%) of those registered voters actually ‘voted’.
The following ‘LAST NAMES’ keep reappearing everywhere… on both
the ‘Tribal Council’ and in the actual “Beartown Firefighters” organization…
Swartz, Loonsfoot, DeCota, LaFernier, Shelifoe, Shalifoe.
NOTE: The ‘Shelifoe’ and ‘Shalifoe’ familes appear to be directly related,
with some kind of ‘family dispute’ just causing one ‘branch’ of the family
to change the ‘e’ to an ‘a’ at some point.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> The smaller tribes that may only have a few dozen members
>> are the ones who are really susceptible to being run like
>> criminal enterprises instead of governmental entities.
No one seems to have been arrested and/or convicted of ‘racketeering’ charges since that MAJOR frap with previous Council President Fredrick Dakota, and the TWO YEAR ‘occupation’ of the Tribal Headquarters that took place prior to his convictions ( and the eventual destruction of the original Tribal headquarters ).
But ‘Fredrick Dakota’ is out of prison and is now BACK on the Tribal Council… and from the ‘noises’ he is making… it seems just a matter of time before he runs for ‘President’ again and tries to take control of the ‘Council’ back again.
>> Gay Olson also said…
>>
>> In all tribes, extended families and clans play a major
>> role in who is in charge, but the smaller the tribe and
>> the bigger the clan, makes it really easy for a faction
>> to get control and keep it for their nearly exclusive benefit.
>>
>> Which sounds like has been, and continues to happen
>> up in Beartown U.S.A.
Pretty much.
This ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community / Reservation” would seem to qualify as a “poster child” for what you are describing.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> Although it may just be a big coincidence since I am pretty
>> sure Swartz has always been a very common last name
>> for Native Americans. I read somewhere the first Indians
>> to greet those at Plymouth Rock where Ethan and his
>> brother Joel Swartz, so….who knows as Donald Trump
>> likes to say, who knows? Oh…and “some people say”
>> or “a lot of people say.”
There is no question that the CURRENT ‘Keweenaw Bay’ Tribal Council President, Warren C. ( Chris ) Swartz, Jr. is directly RELATED to the “Alan ‘AJ’ Swartz” who was just killed in the “Beartown” Crew Carrier rollover.
The Star Tribune
Article Title: Charges: Firetruck driver in deadly I-35W crash said he lacked sleep, smoked pot that day
Published: August 30, 2016 — 10:58am
By: Paul Walsh and Pat Pheifer, Star Tribune staff writers
http://www.startribune.com/firetruck-driver-charged-in-i-35w-crash-that-killed-2/391649401/
————————————————————-
Alan Swartz, 25, and James Shelifoe Jr., 23, also of Baraga, were killed. The others on the truck survived their injuries. Two other vehicles that were part of the contingent were not involved in the wreck.
A witness traveling in the same direction told authorities he estimated their speed at 80 to 90 miles per hour in the 70 mph zone and had noticed Johnson’s truck swerve multiple times.
The passengers were members of the Beartown Firefighters, a crew that specializes in fighting wildfires and is run by the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community and the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
As soon as the community learned of the crash, the families of the injured were sent to the Twin Cities to be with their loved ones, said Tribal President Chris Swartz, who is a RELATIVE of Alan Swartz.
————————————————————-
NOTE: There is an interesting PHOTOGRAPH accompanying the article above. It’s one of the only photographs that shows the ENTIRE ‘path of the wreck’, from where the Crew Carrier FIRST struck the cable-barrier.
Look at the TOP LEFT of this photograph. The ‘pile of white debris’ you are seeing there out in the median is the entire ‘hood, engine and one front tire’ COWLING. It obviously ‘separated’ from the Carrier the moment it struck the cable-barrier and ended up ‘by itself’ as a separate pile of debris out in the median. The MAIN BODY of the vehicle never ‘crossed over’ the cable barrier and and appears to have just ‘slid’ forward on the ROAD side of the cable-barrier ( without ‘rolling over at all’ ) to where it came to rest ( still rubber-side-down ) near the overpass. It was the Crew Compartment alone that was EJECTED off the vehicle chassis and out into the median, where it rolled over MANY time and caused the actual fatal injuries.
There is ANOTHER photograph which I will post in a moment that shows the same ‘full path of the wreck’. It is a ‘still frame’ from a Minnesota Department of Transportation ( MnDOT ) VIDEO camera that was mounted on the overpass directly ABOVE where the accident took place.
Yes… that means that MnDOT most likely has a complete VIDEO of the accident itself. It would show EXACTLY what happened when the vehicle first struck that cable-barrier and exactly how EASILY that ‘Crew Compartment’ seems to have been EJECTED off the main chassis.
Followup…
I said ( above )…
“Look at the TOP LEFT of this photograph. The ‘pile of white debris’ you are seeing there out in the median is the entire ‘hood, engine and one front tire’ COWLING.”
Just to be clear… the ENGINE of the vehicle itself was not ‘ejected’ from the vehicle at the moment of impact. I remained fully installed and attached to the MAIN CHASSIS when it finished ‘sliding’ on the ROAD side of the cable barrier and came to rest ( still rubber-side down ) near the overpass.
That pile of ‘white debris’ out in the median some distance away from where the Crew Compartment and the MAIN BODY came to rest is simply the ‘Fenders’ and the ‘Hood’ and the ‘Front Grill’ assemblies that were surrounding the entire engine compartment.
Here’s a good photo of both the MAIN CHASSIS and the ‘Crew Compartment’ at the point where they finally came to rest…
http://static.lakana.com/media.fox9.com/photo/2016/08/28/35w-crash-blaine-beartown-fire_1472386829637_1923796_ver1.0.jpg
Things to ‘notice’ in THIS photograph.
1. The ENGINE is still attached to the MAIN CHASSIS. Only the ‘fenders’ and ‘hood’ and ‘front grille’ were EJECTED and that is that pile of ‘white debris’ seen out there in the median some distance from where this photo was taken.
2. The MAIN CHASSIS is still on the ROAD SIDE of the ‘cable-barrier’. It NEVER ‘flipped over it’ at all and remained on the ROAD SIDE of that ‘cable-barrier’.
3. The MAIN CHASSIS ( Driver’s compartment and vehicle FRAME ) is still ‘rubber side down’ where it came to rest… and while damaged… the CAB ROOF and DRIVERS SIDE DOOR show no signs that this part of the vehicle ever ‘rolled over’. It simply ‘slid’ or ‘spun around’ ( remaining right-side-up ) from the point of impact to where it came to rest.
4. The photograph also shows that the DRIVER’S SIDE DOOR was still fully operational following the accident and it appears that driver Michael Johnson was just able to ‘exit’ the driver’s seat in a normal way following the accident. More proof that this MAIN BODY of the vehicle never ‘rolled over’ at all.
5. The photograph also shows the ‘Crew Compartment’ where it ‘came to rest’, after ( apparently ) being totally EJECTED OFF the vehicle at the moment it first impacted the CABLE barrier. It came to rest on its SIDE there on the OTHER SIDE of the CABLE barrier and off into the median. It definitely ‘rolled over’ many, many times and THAT is what actually caused the fatalities.
6. If you ZOOM IN on this photo… there’s actually a pretty good view of the ‘mounting points’ showing on the Underside of the Crew Carrier. They do not appear to be ‘destroyed’ in any way which would indicate that it was simply the BOLTS that FAILED.
7. There is also NO SIGN of the REQUIRED ‘Secondary Safety System’ there on the underside of the Crew Compartment. If that ‘System’ had been installed ( as REQUIRED ), it would stand to reason that there would still be some ‘evidence’ of it having been there visible on the underside of the Crew Compartment.
There is nothing there.
This ‘Secondary Safety System’ is REQUIRED in order to PREVENT the EJECTION of the Crew Compartment off of the main chassis… which is exactly what happened with this Crew Compartment and which caused the actual fatalities.
OMG…that looks BAD!
It was. Anyone who was NOT ‘killed’ in that Crew Compartment after it EJECTED OFF the main chassis is probably very lucky to be alive.
There is no telling how many times it probably ‘rolled over’. The only injured “Beartown” firefighter who ‘remembers’ the entire accident has been quoted as saying it was like being inside a “Clothes Dryer gone nuts”.
It’s also VERY fortunate there was no ‘fire’ immediately following the accident.
Followup…
That ‘Beartown firefighter who remembers the entire accident’ is ‘Gavin Loonsfoot.’
Yep… you guessed it.
Same ‘LoonsFoot’ last name as ‘Gary F. Loonsfoot’, who is a CURRENT member of the KBIC Tribal Council, along with Warren Swartz and Doreen Blaker ( and others ).
Also the same ‘LoonsFoot’ last name as ‘Victoria Shawa Loonsfoot’… Crew Carrier driver Michael Johnson’s MOTHER.
Victoria Shawa Loonsfoot had TWO SONS onboard “Beartown” Crew Carriers and headed to the “Box Canyon Fire” on August 27, 2016.
One SON… was ( driver ) Michael Johnson.
The other SON was “Robert Shawa”. He was in the OTHER “Beartown” Crew Carrier ( the one that did NOT crash ).
Here is the recently released ‘info’ on Beartown Firefighter ‘Gavin Loonsfoot’ where he says he DOES recall the ‘accident’ and that it was like being in a ‘Human Clothes Dryer’…
—————————————————–
GAVIN LOONSFOOT
Children: Aiden (10 years)
Kaya (7 years)
Kiana (5 years)
Khloe (4 years)
Injuries: 14 fractures
Broken ribs
Broken pelvis
Broken collar bone
Broken rotator cuff
Many lacerations (staples and stitches)
Only crew member with full recollection of incident.
Describes the rollover as a human clothes dryer.
In severe pain; unable to take care of himself.
More than likely on LIFELONG disability.
————————————————-
Also notice another recent report on another one of the ‘injured’ Beartown Wildland Firefighters who was in Crew Carrier “KBT 002″…
His name was…
“Shashaywin ‘Baghi’ Shelifoe”
————————————————-
SHASHAYWIN “BAGHI” SHELIFOE
Children: Roman (5 years)
John (3 years)
Alivia (23 months)
Injuries: Collapsed lung, Broken ribs.
Uncle of Jimmy Shelifoe (deceased)
————————————————-
Yep…. you got it.
The ‘Jimmy Shelifoe’ that died was the NEPHEW of this other ‘Shelifoe’ who was traveling in the same Beartown Crew Carrier on the way to the “Box Canyon Fire”.
There is also a ‘Donald Shalifoe Sr.’ who is CURRENTLY also a member of the KBIC Tribal Council. The ‘Shalifoes’ and the ‘Shelifoes’ appear to all be related, but due to some family argument one branch of the ‘family’ changed the third letter ‘e’ to an ‘a’ at some point.
There’s more… but for another post.
It’s actually mind-boggling what a ‘closed loop’ is in operation there at this “Keweenaw Bay Indian Community / Reservation”.
Followup 2…
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that ‘still frame’ from an MnDOT VIDEO camera that was mounted on the overpass directly ABOVE where this fatal “Beartown” crash took place…
http://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2016/08/29/e3b28ca2-8a26-4d87-95c8-00b081377c60/thumbnail/620×350/21e97d4a81317be8f9c3c539eac81548/minnesota-crash.jpg
Again… notice that this photo clearly shows where the first ‘point of impact’ was on that CABLE-BARRIER… and how far the ‘debris trail’ actually went towards where everything came to rest just before the overpass itself.
And again… that small pile of ‘white debris’ on the LEFT side of the photo and out in the ‘grass’ of the median represents the ‘one front fender’ and the ‘hood’ and the ‘front grille’ assembly of the vehicle itself. It was also ‘ejected’ off the vehicle ( just like the Crew Compartment apparently was ) at the ‘moment of impact’ with the CABLE barrier.
The ‘other’ front wheel fender/cowling, with the NWCG-issued Unit ID of “KBT 002” showing on it ( upside down ) came to rest farther along the path of debris and is seen in that other photo above in the foreground… on the ROAD side of the cable-barrier along with the main body of the vehicle.
And again… this is a FRAME from a VIDEO CAMERA that Minnesota Department of Transportation ( MnDOT ) had installed on that overpass above the wreck.
It is almost certain, then, that somewhere at MnDOT there is a VIDEO of the actual accident taking place down there on I-35.
The Anoka County DA’s office probably already has a copy of it… but they, of course, are not the slightest bit interested in ‘investigating’ ALL of the circumstances of this ‘accident’.
The Anoka County DA is only going to be interested in making sure they nail the person they have already charged with ‘vehicular homicide’ to the wall… and make their charges STICK.
That’s the only thing THEY get ‘paid to do’.
Great work! I already tried to go back to Mr. Johnson’s Go Fund Me page to tell him/them about your research but I couldn’t figure out how to do it. It is very important that he know about everything you know before it’s too late for him.
He is no angle, but I am going to stand by my story that most of the blame lies with those who put him behind the wheel, who was almost certainly Doreen BLAKER, not Baker.
As we are so fond of saying on this thread, the crew boss gets the credit and the accolades (and the promotions and full benefits) but crew bosses also own it when things go wrong with, or on their crews. That is the way it is. The crew boss owns it.
Well…he might be an angle, but he is definitely no ANGEL.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
September 17, 2016 at 7:01 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I am going to stand by my story that most of
>> the blame lies with those who put him behind
>> the wheel, who was almost certainly
>> Doreen BLAKER, not Baker.
>>
>> As we are so fond of saying on this thread, the
>> crew boss gets the credit and the
>> accolades (and the promotions and full
>> benefits) but crew bosses also own it
>> when things go wrong with, or on their crews.
>>
>> That is the way it is.
>> The crew boss owns it.
Speaking of “The Crew Boss owning it…”
Here is another interesting photo taken at the CRASH scene.
This is the EARLIEST photo I can find taken after the accident.
It was taken just MINUTES after it happened, by someone who had witnessed the crash and ‘stopped to help’.
ABC 5 – Eyewitness News – Saint Paul, Minnesota
Article Title: 2 Killed, Several Injured in I-35W Crash in Blaine
Published: August 28, 2016 07:27 AM
http://kstp.com/news/interstate-35-w-lino-lakes/4247507/
If you scroll down just 1 page on this article… there is a ‘slideshow’ of photographs.
The very first photo in the ‘slideshow’ has the caption…
“People attempt to free victims of a crash on Interstate
35W near 95th Avenue in Blaine, Aug. 27, 2016.
Viewer submitted photo.”
This photo was taken just MINUTES following the CRASH.
Here is a DIRECT LINK to a LARGER version of the same photo in the slideshow…
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/2016-08/800-people-attempt-to-freee-victims-of-a-crash-on-interstate-35w-near-95th-avenue-in-blaine-aug.-27-2016.-viewer-submitted-picture.jpg
Things to notice about THIS photo.
1. It was, in fact, taken just MINUTES after crash. There are NO POLICE or other RESCUE personnel on the scene yet. Just ‘concerned citizens’ who had stopped after witnessing the crash.
2. This photo CLEARLY shows where the accident BEGAN. Look at the LEFT side of the photo. Notice all the DIRT thrown up off the shoulder and spreading out ACROSS both lanes of I-35 ( right where the man in the white shirt with the shorts on is seen RUNNING towards the crash ).
3. Notice the man in the GREEN shirt and the BLUE pants standing at the driver’s side door of the CAB. He appears to be just ( at that moment ) actually OPENING the door of the CAB to check on the condition of driver Michael Johnson and ‘passenger seat’ occupant ‘Ross Jaukkun’.
From recently released information about the ‘injured’ Beartown Wildland Firefighters…
ROSS JAUKKUN
Children: Ross II (11 years)
Marissa (9 years)
Injuries: Collapsed lung, broken ribs, head lacerations (staples and stitches)
Notes: *He was riding in the passenger seat*
4. Just to the LEFT of this man in the GREEN shirt opening the driver’s side CAB door, and off on the ‘grass’ in the distance, is that ‘pile of debris’ that was the front fender and hood assembly of the vehicle.
5. This photo also CLEARLY shows that the CAB and the MAIN CHASSIS of the vehicle did NOT ‘cross over’ the cable-barrier itself. It stayed on the ROAD SIDE of it. Only the EJECTED ‘Crew Compartment’ went into the median after FLYING OFF the chassis itself.
6. The photo also shows that there WAS some ‘damage’ to the ‘passenger’ side of the CAB itself… but there still doesn’t appear to be ‘enough damage’ to the CAB to indicate that it had ever actually ‘rolled over’ at all during the accident. It appears that ONLY the ‘Crew Compartment’ was EJECTED off the vehicle, and then rolled and rolled and rolled out in the median… causing the actual fatalities.
7. There are a LOT of ‘citizens’ here in this photo trying to figure out what to do… but there is NO sign any of the ‘other’ “Beartown” crew or Doreen Blaker, or the ‘Superintendent’ vehicle she was apparently either driving or riding in.
And I refer back to the post below about the ‘Chase Me Charlie’ game that goes on whenever you are ‘riding in a convoy’.
It IS a FACT that the ‘lead vehicle sets the pace’… and that this creates an ‘accordion’ effect that can sometimes cause the following vehicles to REALLY have to ‘haul ass’ to ‘catch up’.
If Crew Boss Doreen Blaker was not IN that ‘lead Superintendent Truck’… but also DRIVING it… then SHE was the one leading the ‘Chase Me Charlie’ game that day… at the time of this accident.
Sooner or later… Crew Boss Doreen Blaker may ( as you say ) “have to OWN that” ( among other things ).
Correction for above.
I left the word ‘only’ out up above.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
“If Crew Boss Doreen Blaker was not only IN that ‘lead Superintendent Truck’… but was also DRIVING it… then SHE was the one leading the ‘Chase Me Charlie’ game that day… at the time of this accident.”
I hope so, her and the people who approved/allowed that crew carrier design to become the standard. And apparently, “they” have known about the deadly potential of those vehicles for years…and years. Staggering example of incompetence in a world filled with incompetence.
**
** ‘BOLT’ ISSUES WITH CREW CARRIERS WERE / ARE ‘WELL KNOWN’
Not too far down below… ( with regards to the recent BIA co-managed “Beartown Firefighters” Crew Carrier fatalities incident )… I said the following…
———————————————————————————-
SIDENOTE; Keweenaw Bay Indian Community ( KBIC ) newsletters and Tribal Council meeting minutes both confirm these were USED Crew Carriers, purchased in 2011 for only $7,000 each from Albuquerque, New Mexico. So they were definitely OLD Crew Carriers. It would be hard to say if any kind of ‘defect’ or even original sub-standard construction is why that Crew Compartment ‘separated’ from the the chassis… but that’s the sort of thing a PROPER investigation could/would reveal.
I’m not saying that the ‘age’ of the vehicle or the ‘original construction’ contributed to the fatalities… but if an actual INVESTIGATION revealed that Crew Compartment was only held onto that chassis frame with 1 inch machine thread bolts from Home Depot… well… that’s a problem ( and could/should spark an Industry-Wide ‘timeout’ and forced ‘inspection’ of ALL ‘Agency Certified’ Crew Carriers regardless of ‘age’ ).
———————————————————————————-
As it turns out… the whole issue of these BOLTS ( or lack thereof ) is a KNOWN PROBLEM… and almost a bit of a running ‘joke’ “out in the field”.
Well… nobody is ‘laughing’ now.
Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson is still sitting in JAIL in Anoka County, Minnesota, because he is too poor to even afford his own BAIL.
He is CHARGED with ‘vehicular homicide’… because the ‘Crew’ compartment of the Carrier he was driving SEPARATED from the chassis after the vehicle struck that knee-high cable barrier… and the resulting ‘tumbling’ of the compartment into the ‘median’ is what caused fatal injuries to TWO of his crewmates.
There is no excuse for him ( supposedly ) ‘falling asleep at the wheel’… and swerving across those lanes and ‘striking’ that ‘cable barrier’… and THOSE circumstances still need to be fully ‘investigated’ as well…
But if he has a good attorney… it would now be a REAL QUESTION whether a ‘bad design’ and ‘faulty hardware’ is what *might* have also been a direct cause of the ‘deaths’ that resulted from this ‘accident’.
Just a few days after the accident… a serious ( public ) discussion about the ‘Bolt problem’ with ‘Crew Carriers’ took place over at the Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute ( WFGI ).
Apparently… the PROBLEM of the ‘Bolts’ that hold these Crew Carrier compartments onto the frames is ( and HAS been ) a KNOWN ISSUE in ‘Wildland Firefighting’ circles.
According to comments made just days ago over at WFGI… even the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ had ‘witnessed’ another ‘Bolt-related’ near fatal incident with another BIA Crew Carrier during a fire season prior to 2013.
This ‘incident’ involving ‘Bolts’ and ‘another’ BIA Crew Carrier was being reported by WFGI Board Member Doug Harwood. He was a ‘Granite Mountain Hotshot’ from 2004 until 2007, when he took a position with the City of Prescott’s ‘Structural Fire Division’. Doug Harwood is ‘currently’ and Engineer, Technical Rescue Technician and a Paramedic for the Prescott Fire Department.
Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute – Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/wildlandfirefighterguardianinstitute/
Public post about the ‘Crew Carrier BOLT issue’ on September 1, 2016…
https://www.facebook.com/wildlandfirefighterguardianinstitute/posts/1653597538264992
From that ‘public’ post about the ‘Crew Carrier BOLT’ issue…
—————————————————————————————–
What I think really hit me is the multi-commented “bolt” discussion. I actually had to ask for clarification I did not know what this discussion truly was about. I found out that the boxes, the cabs that carry our crews, our young men, our husbands, fathers and sons, are laughingly just BARELY bolted to the frame. That it is a COMMON JOKE to carry bolts in your pockets for when these bolts BREAK.
If you look closely at the photos of this crash, that took the lives of this crew from Michigan, you will plainly see that the box came off the chassis frame.
One of our board members, Doug Harwood, was an eyewitness to the bolt situation.
He explains, “During one of Crew Sevens’ (Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots) early seasons we drove our vans by a BIA crew buggy that was only held together with one bolt. The crew box was hanging off the side of the chassis with about a 70 foot cliff below. This was not a high sped crash just wear and tear caused by the rough off road travel that this buggy was working in. Thank goodness everyone had gotten out safe climbing out windows to safety.”
Yet, as I have been told the key here is “weight”. Between the shot crew and all of their equipment these buggies are overloaded, putting strain on these bolts. That based on my quick research for today it seems that a lot, if not most, crashes that happen with crew buggies it is the crew box falling off. I believe this needs to be looked into and really examined. I do not believe that carrying a few extra bolts in your pocket is the answer. It does lead to great JOKES at fire camp but that’s about all.
We are talking about men and women’s lives here.
Signed: Deborah Pfingston M.Ed. / Co-Chair WFGI
————————————————————————————–
The photos from the ‘crash scene’ seem to clearly indicate that the MAIN BODY of the Crew Carrier vehicle ( the CAB and the flat-bed chassis ) did NOT ‘roll over’ after striking that knee-high cable barrier in the median. It remained ‘upright’ ( rubber-side down ). The damage to the passenger side door looks like it could have just been caused by an impact with the Crew Compartment itself as IT became ‘detached’ and was ‘tumbling’ alongside. The MAIN BODY even remained ( upright ) on the ‘road’ side of the cable barrier itself and never even ‘crossed over it’.
But it was the Crew Compartment itself that seemed to just ‘leap’ off of the flatbed assembly upon impact with the cable barrier… and then ‘tumbled’ OVER the cable-barrier and continued to roll over… many, many times… in the median itself and CAUSING the actual fatal injuries to crewmembers INSIDE that ‘Crew Compartment’.
If it can be determined that the Crew Compartment really SHOULD have at least remained ‘attached’ to the MAIN BODY… but did NOT ( because of design issues or inadquate ‘attachment’ specifications ) then there COULD be a REAL opportunity here to SAVE OTHER LIVES.
But first there has to be an ‘investigation’.
Someone has to CARE enough about the chance to save OTHER lives to pull up their shorts and do a REAL INVESTIGATION of this ( tragic ) accident.
The Anoka County Prosecutor is not going to give a DAMN about ‘investigating’ any possible ‘mechanical’ failures that might have directly ( or indirectly ) contributed to the ‘fatalities’ resulting form this traffic accident. His/Her ONLY concern will be ‘nailing’ the person they have arrested and charged with ‘vehicular homicide’ to the wall and making their current ‘charges’ STICK.
I hope Michael Johnson can find a good lawyer BEFORE he faces these actual ‘vehicular homicide’ charges.
**
** WILDLAND CREW CARRIER SPECIFICATIONS ( INCLUDING ‘BODY MOUNTING’ )
Well… here it is… in black and white.
There is even SUPPOSED to be a ‘secondary’ safety system installed on ALL ‘Crew Carriers’ to specifically prevent what happened to the “Beartown Firefighter” Crew Compartment as that vehicle hit that knee-high cable barrier, on August 27, 2016.
USDA FOREST SERVICE – SPECIFICATION
TEN ( 10 ) PERSON CREW CARRIER
SPECIFICATION DATE: FEBRUARY, 2012
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/equipment/ihc_vehicles/documents/usfs_10_person_crew_carrier_turnkey.pdf
NOTE: The following are just SOME ‘excerpts’ from this ‘detailed’ document…
——————————————————————————————
GENERAL
The apparatus described in this specification SHALL BE COMPLIANT with the requirements of NFPA 1906, latest edition, except for the pump and tank requirements and where noted within the specification.
The in-service weight shall meet DOT gross axle and vehicle weight requirements; shall meet Forest Service Handbook (FSH) 7109.19 vehicle loading requirements using a rough road factor of .90; and SHALL NOT exceed 20,000 lb. on the rear axle when loaded as follows:
– with 250 lbs. per seat, and
– with 1600 lbs. allowance for tools, equipment and supplies evenly distributed in the storage compartments.
TILT TEST
The apparatus shall be tested at the estimated in-service weight in accordance with NFPA 1906 specifications.
STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY
This specification requires testing and certification of the structural integrity of the body by an independent third party laboratory or test facility. Computer simulations or analyses are NOT ACCEPTABLE. The requirements for structural integrity testing are included in the chapter titled “Crew Carrier Body Description.”
CREW CARRIER BODY DESCRIPTION
BODY DESIGN
The crew carrier body shall be designed for fire service operations only. Commercially designed bodies intended for use in other vocations or applications are UNACCEPTABLE. The crew carrier body module shall utilize a FULL welded subframe, independent of the chassis.
STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY
A structural integrity test report and a certificate of conformance shall be provided by an independent third party laboratory or test facility certifying that the body complies with the roof and side load requirements of AMD 001, Ambulance Body Structure Static Load Test specifications.
Roof Load Test: The body SHALL WITHSTAND a force equal to 2.5 times the curb weight of the vehicle applied to the roof of the body.
Side Load Test: The body shall withstand a force equal to 2.5 times the curb weight of the
vehicle applied to either the driver or passenger side of the body. The movement at any point on the side application plate shall not exceed 5.13 inches.
BODY CONSTRUCTION
The body module SHALL BE comprised of a welded superstructure framework consisting of vertical and horizontal components fabricated from structural steel tubing. The superstructure framework is intended to protect occupants and the integrity of the emergency escapes, and shall as a minimum include the entire perimeter of crew compartment envelope, the perimeters of the four escape windows, the roof escape, the rear door, and the cab to body pass-through. The vertical framework at the front and rear of the body module shall extend the height of the body from the subframe to the superstructure roof.
In addition to the perimeter framework at the front and rear of the body module, the framework SHALL also include, as a minimum, a third transverse structural member across the roof and extending the height of the body from the superstructure roof to the subframe, positioned vertically between the two side windows and storage compartments.
Offsetting or staggering of the required vertical framework is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Fabrication of the structural framework and framework members from formed sheet steel is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Sheet aluminum bodies, extruded aluminum bodies, or bodies that are of bolted or riveted body construction SHALL NOT BE ACCEPTABLE.
The superstructure framework and the body subframe shall be a unitized design to form a single weldment assembly for structural integrity. All welding, metal work and fabrication shall be completed with the highest degree of quality and precision. All fasteners utilized in the construction of the body module shall be high quality corrosion resistant and suitable for its intended use.
Any threaded fasteners utilized shall be machine screw type, and all holes shall be properly sized and tapped to create threads to receive them. Threaded expanding inserts shall be utilized where required. All fasteners shall utilize a locking method to prevent loosening from vibration.
The roof shall be 16 gauge minimum galvaneal ASTM A-60 steel sheet.
All roof seams SHALL BE continuously welded.
The body shall be completely modular in design, thereby allowing its transfer to a new chassis, without cutting or welding, in the event of an accident or chassis replacement.
BODY MOUNTING
The crew carrier body module SHALL BE mounted utilizing spring mounts and shear plate mounts to allow for a degree of independent movement between the body frame and the chassis frame.
The body SHALL BE mounted at six (6) mounting points.
There SHALL BE four (4) spring mounting points at the forward end of the body.
There SHALL BE two (2) shear plate type mounting points at the aft end of the body module.
The mounts at the forward end of the body SHALL BE comprised of a two-piece design, fabricated from STEEL PLATE, with the upper section WELDED TO THE BODY MODULE SUBFRAME and the lower section bolted to the exterior vertical surface of the chassis frame rails.
The upper mount section SHALL BE designed to nest within the lower mount section.
The body mount sections SHALL BE aligned and connected by properly sized Grade 8 bolts, equipped with an appropriate tension rating spring, flat washers and a locking nut.
Four (4) mounts of this design SHALL BE provided, two (2) on each side of the body.
The mounts at the aft end of the body SHALL BE comprised of vertical STEEL PLATES minimum that are WELDED to the body subframe and bolted to the exterior vertical surface of the chassis frame rails. These mounts SHALL extend rearward horizontally to incorporate the rear step supports and rear tow eyes.
Two (2) mounts of this design SHALL BE provided, one (1) on each side of the body.
The body SHALL BE isolated from the chassis frame by using 3/4 inch thick rubber, vulcanized to 1/4 inch STEEL PLATE.
The STEEL plate SHALL BE WELDED or otherwise PERMANENTLY AFFIXED to the body frame.
All mounting nuts, bolts, and washers required for complete crew carrier body installation SHALL MEET or EXCEED SAE and industry standards.
All of the mounting hardware SHALL BE plated to reduce corrosion.
All nuts SHALL BE Stover style lock nuts.
A SECONDARY RETENTION SYSTEM, consisting of four (4) .375” diameter minimum woven aircraft cable loops with bolted clamp connector, SHALL BE INSTALLED to prevent the crew carrier body and frame from completely separating from the chassis frame in the EVENT OF AN ACCIDENT where the primary system fails. Two (2) cable loops shall be installed at the forward end of the body, one (1) on each side, and two (2) cable loops shall be installed at the aft end of the body, one (1) on each side.
—————————————————
So….
Was this USED “Beartown” Crew Carrier meeting ALL the ‘requirements’ of this official document… especially the ‘BODY MOUNTING’ specifications?
Did this USED “Beartown” Crew Carrier even HAVE this REQUIRED SECONDARY RETENTION SYSTEM for the ‘Crew Compartment’ in the event of a ‘total failure’ of the PRIMARY system?
If it did have this ‘SECONDARY RETENTION SYSTEM’ ( as REQUIRED )… then did it, also FAIL?
News Flash: Somebody needs to INVESTIGATE this accident and these ‘fatalities’… and NOT just the Anoka County Prosector who only wants CONVICT the one person they have ‘charged’.
There are ‘other lives at stake’ here.
I also say again.. I hope Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson is able to retain proper ( competent ) legal counsel BEFORE he has to face these ‘vehicular homicide’ charges.
There are a LOT of people who would just like to ‘throw him under the bus’… just as FAR as they CAN ( and just ‘make this all go away’ ) when the REALITY might be that the ‘bus’ itself may have actually been one of the major contributing factors to the ‘deaths’ that took place during this tragic ‘accident’.
And somewhere down below I also pointed out…
———————————————————————————
FWIW… here is a document which proves that, among all the other things Doreen Blaker is ( Beartown CREW BOSS, KBIC Tribal Council member and Tribe ‘Treasurer’, etc. ), Doreen Blaker has also served ( and still serves? ) as a ‘Court Advocate’ for the Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe COURT system.
http://www.nai.msu.edu/uploads/files/2012_2013_MichiganIndianDirectoryfinal_377530_7.pdf
From that document…
————————————
Michigan Indian Directory
Michigan Department of Civil Rights and
Michigan Indian Legal Services, Inc.
2012-2013 Edition
Federally Recognized and State
Historic Tribes,
State and Federal Contacts,
and Indian Programs and Services
On document page 19…
Legal Services
Keweenaw Bay Indian Community
Court Advocate
Doreen Blaker
427 N. Superior Ave.
Baraga, MI 49908
(P) 906.353.8124
Email: Doreen (at) kbic‐nsn.gov
—————————————–
It is NOT likely that “Beartown” CREW BOSS and KBIC Council Member/Treasurer Doreen Blaker would even be ‘permitted’ to become “Beartown Firefighter” Michael Johnson’s LAWYER for his DEFENSE…
…but she, at least, should be able to ADVISE him as he faces these charges.
————————————————————————————-
Well… I take that back.
It is actually NOT likely that Doreen Blaker is in ANY position to give ANY ‘legal advice’ to Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson.
Doreen Blaker has, most likely, consulted and/or retained her OWN ‘attorney’ at this point.
Any good attorney for Michael Johnson will now see the ‘larger picture’ here… and can/should PURSUE these ‘Bolt’ and ‘Mechanical’ issues ( and yes… even the issue regarding whether or not the deceased FFs had their seatbelts on ).
‘Vehicular Homicide’ is a serious charge… but he keyword is ‘Homicide’.
What it if can be PROVEN than while there certainly still might have been some injuries sustained when that vehicle struck that ‘cable barrier’… the actual DEATHS were actually the result of the ‘Crew Compartment’ being improperly attached to the chassis?… or that it even might have totally LACKED the required ‘Secondary Safety Systems’ ( the aircraft cable loops at all corners on the undercarriage )?
It would be pretty hard for “Beartown” CREW BOSS Doreen Blaker to act as Michael Johnson’s ‘counsel’ ( in any way )… because at this point… a PROPER defense for Michael Johnson MUST put these ‘vehicle inspection’ and ‘certification’ and ‘mechanical’ issues ‘on the table’… and for Doreen Blaker to do that would mean she is putting HERSELF on the line as the person who was directly RESPONSIBLE for making sure that Crew Carrier was meeting all requirements.
Doreen Blaker has her own “rights against self-incrimination”.
She is not going to lift a finger to ‘help’ explore all the possible ’causes’ of the fatalities… because the finger could then be pointed right back at HER.
IMMEDIATELY following the Yarnell Hill tragedy… the sole-surviving Granite Mountain crewmember ( Brendan McDonough ) had FULL access to the actual ‘City Attorney’ ( Paladini ) for the entire ‘City of Prescott’.
For some time following the tragedy, while the preliminary ‘details’ were being discovered surrounding these needless DEATHS… there was a GOOD chance that Brendan McDonough himself might have been ‘charged’ with something.
He WAS the designated ‘lookout’ that day for a group of men who all eventually DIED because they didn’t have a functioning ‘lookout’.
So that “wasn’t looking good” for ‘lookout’ Brendan McDonough for a while.
And even later on… Brendan still refused to tell the ‘complete story’ and just 48 hours before he was to give his first scheduled ‘under oath’ deposition… HE ( and he ALONE ) ‘backed out’ and switched his legal counsel from the FREE ‘City Attorney’ for the City of Prescott to a PRIVATE pro-bono ( FREE ) reputable CRIMINAL attorney.
Because now there really WAS a chance of ‘charges’ against Brendan if everyone found out he had been purposely WITHHOLDING ‘evidence’ and ‘testimony’ from no less than TWO ‘official’ investigations.
The ‘similarities’ between the overall ‘Granite Mountain’ story/situation and this recent “Beartown” organization/incident continue to mount.
Both were/are ( essentially ) ‘municipally owned’ Wildland Firefighting organizations… with up-level FEDERAL involvement and ‘support’.
Both were/are primarily concerned with “making ends meet” on a constant basis… and NEEDING to maintain their current ‘rating’ and ‘Dispatch’ status and NEEDING the ‘field money’ to supplement their budgets.
Both seem to have become organizations that were “pushing the envelope” to maintain this ‘status’ ( and the revenue being obtained from it ).
It may turn out that BOTH organizations were practicing the “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” approach to Wildland Firefighting.
And ( last but not least )… there doesn’t seem to be any effort being made to do a FULL and COMPLETE investigation of the ‘fatal incidents’ that both organizations have been involved with… because someone has ( or someones, plural have ) decided they don’t like what they might find.
For all we know… there is already a corresponding ‘memorandum’ somewhere regarding this recent “Beartown” incident which MATCHES the one we can now see was sent by SAIT Co-Lead and USFS employee Mike Dudley following the Yarnell Incident.
The one where Mike Dudley was informing people that regardless of any ‘evidence’ that was being directly OFFERED to them about Granite Mountain’s known practice of “pushing the envelope” and exercising the “Good Decisions with Bad Outcomes” approach to Wildland Firefighting…they ( Mike Dudley, et al ) were not going to even look at any of that.
In Mike Dudley’s own words… “It’s a place we do NOT want to go”.
And it was because they were AFRAID of what they might actually “find out”.
Same situation now with “Beartown”.
It is becoming apparent that the “powers that be” would just rather throw “one of their own” ( Michael Johnson ) totally “under the bus” rather than take a good hard look at what REALLY happened… and what might REALLY have been going on with this BIA co-sponsored and BIA co-managed Type 2 IA Crew.
WTKTT,
You posted: “He [McDonough] WAS the designated ‘lookout’ that day for a group of men who all eventually DIED because they didn’t have a functioning ‘lookout’.”
There was NO way the GMHS deaths were solely McDonough ‘s fault.
It was Acting GMHS Supt. Steed’s responsibility to assign a Lookout for themselves once McDonough had completed his L/O duties for their underslung line assignment.
The GMHS had the best vantage point of anyone on the YH Fire except for AA.
Steed did NOT assign a Lookout nor did the GMHS post one once they abandoned their perfectly good Safety Zone, nor did they notify AA what their intentions were and to keep a watch over them as they headed down to the BSR.
And I’m not following the YH Fire and GMHS connection with the recent BIA Bear town Crew debacle.
The only connection I see is one of poor leadership.
You got the Roy Collins and ODF and Douglas Fire Protection Agency attitude toward direct line and not burning out absolutely correct. He was in lock-step with them.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
September 16, 2016 at 10:45 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> You posted: “He [McDonough] WAS the designated ‘lookout’
>> that day for a group of men who all eventually DIED because
>> they didn’t have a functioning ‘lookout’.”
>>
>> There was NO way the GMHS deaths were solely
>> McDonough ‘s fault.
Never said they were.
Read for ‘context’ up above.
What I WAS saying is that shortly after the incident itself… as only SOME of the ‘details’ were emerging… it sure-enough started to SOUND like 19 men burned to death because they didn’t have a ‘lookout’… but the person who HAD been ‘designated’ to be their ‘lookout’ was the only one who did NOT ‘burn to death’.
WTF?
Until ALL of the details came out… there were a lot of people “cuttin’ their eyes sideways” at ‘the lookout’ Brendan McDonough.
Maybe SOME people still ARE. Dunno.
It actually DOES remain an ‘open ended question’ as to WHY ‘the lookout’ who came down off his mound and was ‘safe’ at the GM vehicles and now playing ‘tourist’ and taking ‘pictures of the fire’ was never ( after the vehicles were moved ) ‘re-established’ to CONTINUE the job of at least TRYING to be the ‘lookout’ for his Crew.
If they had one at all… ( for the risky move )… we probably wouldn’t be here having this conversation and Josh Brolin would have had to find something else to do with himself this summer.
Correction for above.
I said…
“Until ALL of the details came out… there were a lot of people “cuttin’ their eyes sideways” at ‘the lookout’ Brendan McDonough.”
What I meant to say was…
“Until MORE of the details came out… there were a lot of people “cuttin’ their eyes sideways” at ‘the lookout’ Brendan McDonough.”
Obviously ALL of the ‘details’ are STILL ‘unknown’… and it still remains a distinct possibility that Brendan McDonough himself still knows MORE of ‘the details’ that he is ‘keeping to himself’.
WTKTT,
I realized my error (“There was NO way the GMHS deaths were solely McDonough ‘s fault.”) once I pushed ‘enter’ but it was too late and too late at night to clarify it.
You posted: “It actually DOES remain an ‘open ended question’ as to WHY ‘the lookout’ who came down off his mound and was ‘safe’ at the GM vehicles and now playing ‘tourist’ and taking ‘pictures of the fire’ was never … ‘re-established’ to CONTINUE the job of at least TRYING to be the ‘lookout’ for his Crew.”
It is pretty clear to me why McDonough was not “‘re-established’ to CONTINUE the job of at least TRYING to be the ‘lookout’ for his Crew.”
It would have made no sense for the GMHS overhead to reassign him to a good vantage point where he could provide any valuable insight into what was occurring. Where he was at/near the Ranch House Restaurant was good enough, except he, as a faithful follower, never stepped up to the plate and took on that Lookout task without being directed to do so.
And why would he? Once again, the GMHS had the best vantage point of anyone on the YH Fire except for AA.
The rest of the GMHS was right there and the GMHS overhead could have and should have easily assigned one or two as Lookout(s) with a radio to remain in place and/or relocate accordingly based on fire spread, to maintain a good view of the approaching fire.
All this in spite of what PRD Wildland Chief Willis said at the July 2013 News Conference: “They couldn’t have left anyone behind as a lookout]. Utter nonsense!
You also posted: “If they had one [Lookout] at all… ( for the risky move )… we probably wouldn’t be here having this conversation …”
Maybe. The GMHS was selectively following the Basic WFF Rules and LCES, cherry-picking what they wanted when they wanted on a regular and continuing basis.
I think it was highly likely that the GMHS would have attempted their risky, and ultimately fatal, move anyway that day based on their repeated ‘successes’ and a steady Drift into Failure.
Their repeated pattern of ‘Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes’ (Drift into Failure) had been working just fine for years, so why change? Why not again, one more time, under these circumstances.
This along with many other Human Factors, e.g. Groupthink, the Abilene Paradox, Mitigating and Hinting Speech, Plan Continuation, the Hazardous Attitude of “Impulsive – do something even if it’s wrong,” the PRD attitude about ‘structures first and FF safety as a last resort,’ and much more.
Aviation, avalanche, industrial, wildland, and other Investigations have been applying what they call ‘Sense-making’ into their toolbox of investigative and/or review methods.
In the YHF SAIT/SAIR case, they looked into WHY it made sense to the GMHS overhead and the GMHS Crewmembers at the time for them to make the decisions that they did and to follow through with them.However, they concluded that they did everything right.in spite of 19 men being burned to death after leaving a perfectly good Safety Zone
Their fatal decision makes NO sense to any of us looking from the outside-in, but it must have made near-perfect sense to almost all of them because of the above ‘Steady Drift Into Failure’ and what the ultimately did.
And it evidently made NO sense to Acting GMHS Supt. Steed and anyone else that agreed with him at the time, when he told DIV A Marsh, either “we’re not going to make it” or ” we can’t make it.”
And then, the GMHS turned Wildland Firefighting Rules on its head when they went anyway, in spite of EVERYTHING screaming NO, thus defying all logic, training, common sense, and much more.
You can apply ‘sense making’ investigative techniques to just about anything… and come up with a “Well… if it made sense to him/her at the time… then that doesn’t mean they were doing anything wrong”.
If you apply that kind of ‘sense making’ approach to the ‘Son of Sam’ murders… you can ( if you WANT to ) reach the same conclusion.
David Berkowitz’s ‘decisions’ all made PERFECT sense to him at the time.
His neighbor’s dog ‘Harvey’ was TELLING him what to do… and he just did it.
Nothing to see. Move along.
As far as re-establishing the ‘lookout’ as a ‘lookout in another location’…
It really is perfectly obvious ( now ) why that didn’t happen, and what that organization’s ‘attitude’ was ( in general ) regarding ‘lookouts’.
We be ‘Granite Mountain’. Ooo-rah.
We be ‘badasses’. Ooo-rah.
We be ‘Not Hillbilly’. Ooo-rah.
We be ‘Smarter than that’. Ooo-rah.
We dun need no stankin’ ‘lookout’.
No final ‘Ooo-rah’ there.
Just one great big ‘Ooops’.
Result: The greatest and most horrific tactical BLUNDER in the History of Wildland Firefighting.
Followup ( regarding the lingering question of WHY Brendan McDonough didn’t ‘re-establish’ himself as a ‘lookout’ for Granite Mountain that day ).
In Brendan’s own published BOOK… he reports asking HIMSELF the hard question of why he didn’t re-establish himself in a new ‘lookout’ location after being rescued from his previous one by Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby.
And ( according to Brendan ) that same ‘question’ was also one of the very last things he asked himself before ( ALMOST ) ‘eating his gun’ one day.
NOTE: The Italics below match the same Italics Brendan used in this particular section of his published narrative.
From page 258 of McDonough’s own published BOOK…
————————————————————-
The PTSD was only going to get worse. The nightmares were only going to get worse. The depression would deepen. I laid the gun on the passenger seat. All that lay between me and my brothers was five pounds of trigger pull. Cars and trucks were shooting by on my left, people in the windows on their way to whatever. Jobs, kids, homes. I felt so separated from them.
I should have done more at Yarnell, I thought.
I could have done something. I’m responsible for Yarnell. How exactly, I’m not sure, but I could have saved those guys. What does a lookout do? He looks out for his friends. Fucking simple enough. So why didn’t I do it?
Memories of the fire came back to me in vivid detail. I heard Eric’s last call on the radio. “Air Attack, Granite Mountain Seven!” in that horrible, anguished voice. Then the noises of the ’saws in the background, the sirens, the smells, the rush to the hills, the body bags, the funerals. It was a flood of images and sensations. I reached down and picked up the gun in my right hand. I felt the weight of the thing in my hand.
Just put it to your temple and get it over with. Go be with your friends. Best thing for everyone.
————————————————————–
Obviously ( and thankfully )… Brendan did NOT ‘eat his gun’ that day.
SIDENOTE: It’s interesting ( and ironic ) that, according to Brendan, one of what almost became one his ‘last thoughts’ wasn’t even TRUE. That was NOT Eric Marsh’s voice on the radio making those initial emergency ‘callouts’ to Air Attack starting at 4:39 PM on June 30, 2013. The ‘horrible, anguished’ voices he seemed to be recalling belonged to his crewmates Jesse Steed and Robert Caldwell.
**
** ‘GoFundMe’ page for Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson
Speaking of ‘GoFundMe’ pages…
The family and friends of “Beartown Firefighter” Michael Johnson are still struggling desperately just to raise the money to pay his bond and get him out of the jail cell he sits in.
More than a week ago ( on September 3 )… a ‘GoFundMe’ page was created for him with the hopes of just achieving THAT small goal.
In the 11 days since it has been created… only ONE person has contributed… even though this page was ‘advertised’ all over the ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ ( which runs TWO Casinos that make more than 22 million a year just from slot machines ) and all over the ‘National Level’ Wildland Fire ‘Facebook’ pages and other ‘Wildland Fire’ National level social media sites.
And the one-and-only contribution in those 11 days is just $20 ( twenty ) dollars.
So much for the “Firehood Brotherhood” stuff, eh what?
The official ‘GoFundMe’ page for “Beartown” Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson…
https://www.gofundme.com/2n4gd3ck
From that page…
——————————————————–
Created September 3, 2016
By Cathy Miller of BARAGA, MI
We are trying to raise money to help Micheal’s family get him home to take care of things he needs before he is due back in minnesota
As of September 14, 2016… ( 11 days after page creation )…
$20 of $5,000 goal
Raised by 1 person in 11 days
——————————————————–
This is the one-and-only contribution so far…
$20 – By: Cheyenne Crebessa – 11 days ago.
By the way…
Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson does, in fact, have his own PUBLIC Facebook page.
It is HERE…
https://www.facebook.com/ndnmike08?fref=ufi
And he lists his own RED-CARD quals on his own PUBLIC Facebook page ( which indicate he HAD been working in ‘Wildland Fire’ for a least a number of seasons and not just one ).
Here is his own PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ profile information…
——————————————————————
Intro
FAL2, FFT1, ICT5 at KBIC
Studied at Baraga Area High School
Went to L’Anse-Baraga Community Schools
Went to Baraga Area High School
Lives in Baraga, Michigan
From Baraga, Michigan
—————————————————————–
And here are some direct links to some PUBLIC photos he has posted…
July 23, 2016 photo posted by ‘Mike Johnson’ of himself and two of his children, taken at the ‘Baraga Days’ Festival earlier this year…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1242716012419837&set=a.209630692395046.56973.100000443500816&type=3&theater
( Continued Next Reply )
** PHOTO OF THE CREW CARRIER THAT CRASHED
** TAKEN BY MICHAEL JOHNSON
And here is a PUBLIC photo of “Beartown” Crew Carrier with Unit ID “KBT 002” posted August 3, 2015 by ‘Mike Johnson’ himself… to his PUBLIC Facebook page.
This “KBT 002” Crew Carrier is the one that actually rolled over and split apart on August 27, 2016 near Blaine, Minnesota.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1021975364493904&set=ecnf.100000443500816&type=3&theater
**
** CBS EVENING NEWS DID A ‘FLY BY’ REPORT ON DANIEL LYONS
Last night… at the very tail end of the National ‘CBS Evening News’ program ( with anchorman Scott Pelley ), they ‘signed off’ ( as usual ) with one of their ‘filler’ features.
Last night.. it was about TWISP fire survivor Daniel Lyons.
The following online ‘article’ is pretty much ‘word-for-word’ what was presented ‘on-air’.
Yes… it was just as SHORT as the text in the article.
All they did was basically show you how badly burned Daniel was, how disfigured he remains, a quick shot of the three other firefighters who DIED… then a shot of Daniel and his new girlfriend… then ‘roll music and fade to credits’.
Nothing would do, of course, but they had to ZOOM IN on Daniel showing his ‘melted sunglasses’ to the camera ( which he says is the only reason he didn’t get burned BLIND that day )… and then ZOOM IN on his ‘melted watch’ AND the area on his arm which still shows that about the only unburned part of his arm he has left is the ‘impression’ the watch made ( now permanent ) on his burned arm.
No facts. No review of the ‘incident’ that changed this young man’s life forever, or what really happened that day. No mention that Daniel himself has now told other media outlets that he now believes he and his Engine shouldn’t even have been UP on that road that day… protecting ’empty’ structures ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained wildfire… with no lookouts.
It was total ‘fluff’… and bordered on exploitation.
Anyway… here is the link to the ‘segment’ about Daniel that was on the ‘CBS Evening News’ last night…
WARNING: There ARE ‘images’ at the following link that some would consider highly ‘graphic’… even though they blasted them out to the TV audience last night with no warnings at all.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sole-firefighter-to-survive-washington-blaze-finds-love-through-recovery/
And by the way… yes… that ‘article’ above really is an ‘accurate’ representation of the way they ‘aired’ this ‘filler segment’ on the CBS Evening news last night…
…right down to the fact that they just ‘flashed’ that same ‘triple photo’ of the 3 other firefighters who DIED… but didn’t even bother to mention their NAMES.
For the record… the 3 firefighters who did NOT make it out of that Engine and up that embankment that day ( like Daniel was able to ) are..
Tom Zbyszewski, 20, Andrew Zajac, 26, and Richard Wheeler, 31.
Rest in peace.
Maybe NBC or ABC will get around to mentioning your names if they ever do a ‘fly by’ feature on Daniel Lyons as well.
Firehood Brotherhood ????? WTKTT what are you trying to Say here.
The Fire brotherhood is attached to Hot Shots and Smoke Jumpers.
A Type 2 crew is a throw to gather of different members normally every call out.
there is no cohesiveness in those type of crews the only time they work together is when they are on a Fire.
On top of the fact that Mr. Johnson was Smoking Dope and Driving and Killed 2 of his Crew he is in Jail Regular FF are not going to donate for that. HS Crews pretty much look down on Type 2 Crews no brotherhood there.
I hope you understand the difference. You might take a look at the memorial service of the Hot Shot that was recently killed by a falling tree. you will see a whole bunch of Hot Shot crews at that service.
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 15, 2016 at 3:25 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Firehood Brotherhood ????? WTKTT what are you trying to Say here.
>>
>> The Fire brotherhood is attached to Hot Shots and Smoke Jumpers.
Is that a fact?
Well whadda ya know. Learn sumthin’ new every day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A Type 2 crew is a throw to gather of different members
>> normally every call out. there is no cohesiveness in those
>> type of crews the only time they work together is when
>> they are on a Fire.
I think a lot of people who work on some ‘Type 2’ crews could probably disagree with just about every single part of that statement… especially the BIA ‘Type 2’ crews.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> On top of the fact that Mr. Johnson was Smoking Dope
It has NOT ( yet ) been ‘proven’ in a court of law that actually happened, and even if it did… it has also yet to proved that it had anything to do with him “falling asleep at the wheel” circa 3:00 PM on August 27, 2016.
I still think the ( alleged ) report that he had basically NO SLEEP in the 24 hours prior to the accident was the MAJOR contributing factor… and the circumstances surrounding THAT ‘event’ also have still to be revealed ( such as WHO knew of his condition… and WHO was allowing him to be driving that vehicle in that exhausted state ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> and Driving and Killed 2 of his Crew
Nothing is going to erase THAT fact.
He will have to face the ‘charges’ that have been filed against him.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> he is in Jail
Yep. The Judge willy-nilly disallowed his request for a public defender at his arraignment… but now he can’t even raise his own bail to get OUT of jail.
Just like you or me… he has a right to prove he is NOT a ‘flight risk’ and not be sitting in a Jail cell and to be with his family and his children BEFORE he has to face the charges against him.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Regular FF are not going to donate for that.
That’s exactly what I was pointing out.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> HS Crews pretty much look down on Type 2
>> Crews no brotherhood there.
This is a real education for me ( and others ) with regards to this “Firehood Brotherhood” stuff we keep hearing so damn much about,
Please… Tell me more, Bob.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I hope you understand the difference.
Nope. Not according to everything I’ve been hearing ad nauseum for quite some time now as these ‘incidents’ keep taking place on a regular basis.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You might take a look at the memorial service of the Hot Shot
>> that was recently killed by a falling tree. you will see a whole
>> bunch of Hot Shot crews at that service.
Good for them.
So… If a Hotshot crew has to ‘fall back’ to ‘Type 2’ ( like the 2 Hotshot crews in California just did around the time of the ‘entrapment’ at the Bear Divide station )… and then something ‘happens’… does the fact that they were not officially listed as a ‘Type 1’ in the rotation schedule determine who’s going to show up for THEIR ‘funerals’?
Is there a ‘charter’ or some ‘by-laws’ for this ‘Firehood Brotherhood’ sitting online somewhere that I can go and read in order to better understand what you seem to be trying to tell me?
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation
https://wffoundation.org/
———————————————————————–
We Support Wildland Firefighters and their Families
This Foundation Belongs To The Wildland Firefighters.
This Is Their Foundation.
What’s A Wildland Firefighter
Wildland firefighters — our community — are our rugged firefighters of the mountains, forests, plains and wilderness areas of the West and of the pine barrens, deciduous forests, swamps, piney woods and prairies of the East, South and Midwest. While many are seasonal, a large number have permanent wildland firefighting jobs.
————————————————————————
Not seeing any ‘Type 2’s don’t count’ verbiage there.
The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
http://www.ericmarshfoundation.org/
————————————————————————-
The Eric Marsh Foundation is committed to serving the wildland firefighting community.
We are committed to serving those directly affected by wildland line-of-duty deaths AND living wildland firefighters and their families.
Every dollar donated to Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters will be directly used to aid a wildland firefighter or family member in need.
————————————————————————-
Again… I’m not seeing any “Type 2’s need not apply” phrasing there, either.
So help me understand, Bob.
WHEN is a ‘Fire Brother’ NOT a ‘Fire Brother’?
If we are going to keep hearing about this ‘Brotherhood’ stuff over and over and over and over… I want to understand what the REAL ‘club membership’ requirements are.
Bob said:
“A Type 2 crew is a throw to gather of different members normally every call out.
there is no cohesiveness in those type of crews the only time they work together is when they are on a Fire.”
Are you referring to the level of cohesiveness that enables a hotshot crew to follow orders no matter what while marching to their deaths like lemmings in the proximity of an atomic explosion of heat output while clearing brush in an area the size of a 3-car garage attempting to survive wrapping themselves in tin foil & fiberglass shelters instead of running for their lives? No thanks. I’ll pass on that level of cohesiveness. Ya’ll can keep it.
Mr. Bob also crapped this out:
“HS Crews pretty much look down on Type 2 Crews no brotherhood there.”
Your level of separation of wildland firefighters into 2 groups: the real ones & the ones the real ones look down on, is a perfect example of arrogance & hubris which just happens to be a primary causal factor in the multiple fatalities we have seen in type 1 hotshot crews. Keep up the good work, Mr. Bob. You are being very helpful. To solve the problem we have to identify the problem.
You can take your deadly ‘brotherhood’ of your exclusive ‘club of real wildland firefighters’ and shove it squarely up your antique, barely served a couple of years as a hotshot, ass.
After reading what you just wrote, I’m going to have to go take a shower now.
Woodsman
Woodsman and WTKTT You have never been a Hotshot you do not understand the organizational system. Hired crews FS, BLM, and BIA are different than AD crews. Always have been always will be.
I think Gary would say the same.
Arrogance and hubris about Pride of your crew is different than what caused GM’s Failure. You are playing your little word games again Woodsman. You know better you saw and interacted with Hot shots in your FS carrier .
You can go FUCK your Self and the Fucking City Fire department you road in on If that’s how you want to play the game go play with your self in your FUCKING SHOWER .
I attempt to explain something and you jump on me. I have 4 years on 3 crews dumb shit. One year puts you in the Fraternity You never got there Planting trees Green side first..
This IM has gone to shit And you and Dumb ASS WTKTT can have it .
IM has finally reached the end of what I said way back when None of what was found here will ever change any thing Because no one is listening nor will they.
The crews that are created within the Federal Government and earn that Name are recognized as Hot Shot Crews. Even if they drop to Type 2’s later in the season Bear Divide has been a Hotshot crew for many years.
As have others. The fire season goes on into the Fall Some crews can not recruit additional members to meet the 20 for severial reasons Like crewman returning to collage. They drop back to a type 2 crew.
Like I said we will know when This Blog is over and it is in the Trash now.
ADDIOS M.F. to both of you Dumb ASSES
Actually…I agree with everything WTKTT and the Woodsman just said Bob. I don’t understand where you are coming from and you just insulted almost all WF since there are only about 2000 hotshots and far fewer smokejumpers.
In fact…just to put my money where my mouth is, I am going to go the misguided and poorly supervised WF brother Mike Johnson’s Go Fund Me page and make a donation..
Yes…Mr. Johnson should have said, “I am in no condition to drive”, but almost all of the blame for this incident falls squarely on Doreen Baker and other unknown co-conspirators.
I see him as a victim of a fire program that was created in a power vacuum without proper leadership or guidance, just like the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew was and they were allowed to run amok until they met their predictable end….just like Granite Mountain unfortunately did. At least…I hope this is the end of that abortion of a fire crew they call the Beartown firefighters.
And as of 10 minutes ago… after 12 full days… there are now TWO ‘contributions’ to Michael Johnson’s ‘GoFundMe’ page at…
https://www.gofundme.com/2n4gd3ck
———————————————————–
Created September 3, 2016
By: Cathy Miller of BARAGA, MI
We are trying to raise money to help Micheal’s family get him home to take care of things he needs before he is due back in minnesota. Help spread the word!
$120 of $5,000 goal – Raised by 2 people in 12 days
Contributions…
$20 – By Cheyenne Crebessa – 12 days ago
$100 – By: Gary Olson – 10 mins ago
Comment left by Gary Olson…
This tragic accident was not Mr. Johnson’s fault. The fault for what happened falls squarely on the shoulders of the supervisors of the Beartown crew who allowed or ordered him to drive in the condition he was in, who I think was Doreen Baker. I worked on two USFS hotshot crews and was ultimately the crew boss on the first (Happy Jack) and founded and was crew boss on the second (Santa Fe). Wildland firefighting crew bosses have tremendous power and discretion when it comes to their crews and there are many perks that go with the job. But with those perks and power comes tremendous responsibility and Mr. Johnson’s supervisors are responsible for an Epic Fail to him, the two WF who were killed and everyone else. Shame… shame… shame on Doreen Baker who built a WF crew culture that was a train wreck looking for a place to happen.
———————————————————-
**
** AIR ATTACK RORY COLLINS ‘CONFIRMED’ ( TO THE SAIT ) THAT
** HE TOLD THOMAS FRENCH AND JOHN BURFIEND IN ‘BRAVO 33’
** TO TURN THEIR ATTENTION TO YARNELL AT 3:50 PM.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on September 13, 2016 at 3:55 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I have a question relating to air attack on the Yarnell Hill fire:
>>
>> Did saving private and commercial landholdings for timber
>> play into air attack’s decision to remain in the Peeple’s Valley
>> area dropping retardant for 40 extra minutes on June 30,2013
>> when they had been directed to fly to Yarnell?
Well… I don’t believe ANY of the ‘land’ in that area qualified as ‘timber holdings’.
At best… it would have only qualified as ‘grazing land’, if anything… and by the time the fireline was near the ‘Model Creek’ area and ‘Hays Ranch Road’… the only ‘property’ being threatened was PRIVATE property ( Maughan Ranch land ) and PRIVATE residences ( Model Creek and Peeples Valley ).
That being said… there is NO evidence that I know of that has surfaced to support a theory that, after Thomas French and John Burfiend ( in aircraft known as ‘Bravo 33’ that day ) were TOLD at 3:50 PM by the current ‘Air Attack’ to switch the *focus* of Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire… that anyone on the ground then ‘over-rode’ that ‘directive’ and insisted that ‘Air Support’ STAY focused on the NORTH side of the fire.
It would still appear that it was simply Thomas French and/or John Burfiend, in ‘Bravo 33’ who decided ( themselves ), once the previous ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins left the area at 3:58 PM, to stay *focused* on what they had been doing up there on the NORTH end, even though the obvious ‘immediate threat’ was now on the Yarnell side of the fire… and even though they had TOLD Rory Collins ( at 3:50 PM ) that they were switching their focus to Yarnell and were (quote) “headed that way”.
There are also no ‘radio captures’ in the current evidence record which show that anyone else on the ground was purposely ‘diverting’ French and Burfiend from doing what they had said they would do at 3:50 PM.
But there is also ( supposedly ) no FULL recording of the ‘Air To Ground’ channel in this timeframe.
The Eric Panebaker AFUE ( Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness ) Study Group that was there in Yarnell appears to have been ONLY doing a contiguous recording of the ‘Air To Air’ radio channel… even though ‘specifications’ for the AFUE Study itself say that BOTH the ‘Air To Air’ AND the ‘Air To Ground’ channels are supposed to be recorded at each Incident ‘studied’.
If the Panebaker AFUE Study Group really did make a contiguous recording of the ‘Air to Ground’ channel similar to the one they DID make for the ‘Air To Air’ channel… that ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel recording has still never seen the light of day.
There is also the ‘mysterious’ Dan Sullivan.
Dan Sullivan was ‘ordered up’ via ROSS at 9:34 AM on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013 to be a ground-based ‘Air Support Group Supervisor’ ( ASGS ) for the Yarnell Hill Fire that day.
Dan Sullivan was ‘based’ in ‘Prescott’. His ‘order number’ was O-30, and both that ‘resource order’ and testimony from other individuals places ASGS Dan Sullivan ARRIVING in Yarnell that Sunday around 10:30 AM… about 1 hour after he was ‘ordered up’ via the ‘Prescott Dispatch Center’.
Someone named Brad Zettler was ALSO ‘ordered up’ as an ASGS for Yarnell the night BEFORE, at 10:49 PM on Saturday, June 29, 2013. His ‘order number’ was O-16.2. He was already there in Yarnell before Dan Sullivan arrived. Brad Zettler WAS interviewed by ADOSH, and in that interview he said he arrived in Yarnell as early as 7:30 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But Zettler then became basically just the HEB1 ( Helibase Manager ) for the Yarnell Hill Fire… and remained ‘HEB1’ for the rest of the day just dealing with ‘Helicopters’ and the location of the ‘Helibase’ for Yarnell operations.
Brad Zettler CONFIRMED ( to ADOSH ) that this ‘other’ ASGS named Dan Sullivan HAD arrived in Yarnell circa 10:30 AM or so… but the only thing Brad Zettler says this Dan Sullivan person did that day was to help him ( Zettler ) locate a better ‘Helispot’ for the Helciopters than the one that was in use on the north side of Hays Ranch Road.
Don Glassgow, the manager of the ‘Maughan Rances’ was offering the use of a small airstrip on the ‘Maughan Ranch’ property… and Zettler says Dan Sullivan agreed to go ‘check it out’. But Sullivan reported back that he didn’t like that airstrip as a better alternative to just using the ‘crop circles’ there on the north side of Hays Ranch Road.
But that is ALL we know about what ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ ever did that day in Yarnell.
Yarnell ‘Air Support Group Supervisor’ ( ASGS ) Dan Sullivan was ( apparently ) NEVER ‘interviewed’ by ANYONE.
We KNOW he was there all day… because Glen Ilah resident Bryan Smith has confirmed that it was Dan Sullivan himself who ‘rescued’ him and his 84 year-old-cousin Pearl Moore ( Rest In Peace ) later that afternoon, circa 4:45 PM, on the streets of Glen Ilah. It was NOT ‘Gary Cordes’, as was originally reported by ‘The Arizona Republic’ ( AZCENTRAL ).
Dan Sullivan remained ‘on the clock’ as an ASGS for the rest of the day… but there is no evidence ( or testimony ) that he was actually interacting with the ‘Air Support’ over Yarnell at all at any time that day, or whether HE, himself, might have been, somehow, ‘assigning any priorities’ for the ‘Air Support’ at any time that day. Maybe he did. Maybe not.
** SEVEN DAYS
In just SEVEN days, on September 21, 2016, ‘Oral Arguments’ will finally be heard in the appeal regarding the consolidated ‘Yarnell Property Damage’ lawsuits.
If the decision of the lower court judge ( Maricopa County judge Richard Gama ) to not even let these lawsuits ‘have their day in court’ is overturned by the appeals court… then the lawsuits are once again clear to head to a TRIAL.
If there is no ‘settlement’ of ALL of the 165+ consolidated lawsuits known as “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al”… then the resulting TRIAL will most assuredly FOCUS on this whole ‘Air Support’ issue… for the ENTIRE three days of the Yarnell Fire leading up to the disaster and the fatalities on Sunday.
If that happens… it’s probably worth pointing out that not only will ASGS Dan Sullivan most likely be called to the ‘witness stand’ and will have to ( finally ) swear to “tell the WHOLE truth” and reveal everything he did ( or didn’t ) do that day…
…the whole ‘story’ about WHY the ‘Air Support’ never arrived over Yarnell in the later afternoon will also become a ‘focus’ of the trial itself.
And, as it happens, not only do we have the ‘radio capture’ of Air Attack Rory Collins TELLING ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) to ‘switch their focus’ to Yarnell at exactly 3:50 PM that day… and French telling Collins he would do exactly that and was “headed that way”…
…there is ALSO actual ‘testimony’ from Air Attack Rory Collins himself saying that is EXACTLY what he had TOLD Thomas French and John Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) to do.
ADOSH was never ‘allowed’ to interview Air Attack Rory Collins… but Mike Dudley and Jim Karels of the Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT investigation team WERE.
And in the now-public ‘Interview Notes’ from that SAIT interview with Air Attack Rory Collins… CONFIRMED what the radio captures themselves tell us.
That he DID, in fact, TELL ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) to immediately switch the ‘focus’ of the Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire at 3:50 PM, on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But even though Thomas French ‘acknowledged’ that ‘order’ and told Collins he was “headed that way” ( at 3:50 PM )… Thomas French and John Burfiend ended up doing no such thing. They stayed ‘focused’ on no-longer-high-priority projects on the NORTH side of the fire until it was too late to make any difference with ‘Air Support’ down on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.
( Continued Next Reply )
( Continued from Previous Reply )
Just to ‘sum up’ what was *really* happening circa 3:50 PM in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… I’m going to just ‘reprint’ the following THREE things…
1. The radio conversation captured by deceased GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell where we hear OPS1 Todd Abel ‘telling’ DIVSA Eric Marsh to ‘hunker and be safe’ and that he would get ‘Air Support down there AS SOON AS POSSIBLE’.
2. The Air-To-Air radio channel conversation that happened just 16 seconds after that, where we hear the CURRENT ‘Air Attack’, Rory Collins, telling Thomas French and John Burfiend in ‘Lead Plane’ Bravo 33 to switch the FOCUS of ‘Air Support’ to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire because of the massive ‘wind shift’.
3. The testimony from Rory Collins himself to the SAIT Investigation Team that he did, in fact, TELL Thomas French and John Burfiend to switch the focus of Air Support to Yarnell at 3:50 PM.
** THE ROBERT CALDWELL VIDEO
At exactly 3:50:08 PM, Field OPS1 Todd Abel was captured in a video recording saying the following to Eric Marsh over an open TAC radio channel…
TRANSCRIPT OF THE ROBERT CALDWELL 3:50:08 PM VIDEO
———————————————————————————–
Video filename in the SAIT evidence folder: Robert_Caldwell_IMG_0749_2389.MOV
The video is only 12 seconds long.
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO STARTS AT EXACTLY 1550:08 ( 3:50:08 PM )
+0:00 ( 1550:08 / 3:50:08 PM )
( DIVSA – Eric Marsh ): …Yea… I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top.
+0:04 ( 1550:12 / 3:50:12 PM )
( OPS1 – Todd Abel ): Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated… ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah… we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO ENDS AT 1550:20 ( 3:50:20 PM )
————————————————————————————–
So the key phrase to consider has always been…
“…we’ll get some air support down there ASAP ( AS SOON AS POSSIBLE )”
There has been a lot of ‘debate’ about whether such a statement from any up-level supervisor on any Wildland Fire can EVER be considered an actual ‘promise’… but the consensus is still that following that statement… Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and indeed, anyone who heard that statement from Abel ) had every reason to believe that ‘Air Support’ was going to switch its attention from the Peeples Valley / Model Creek side of the fire down to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire at ‘any moment’ following the 3:50 PM statement from OPS1 Todd Abel.
** AIR ATTACK RORY COLLINS TELLS ‘BRAVO 33’ TO SWITCH THE FOCUS
** OF AIR SUPPORT TO THE ‘YARNELL’ SIDE OF THE FIRE
Exactly 16 seconds after the END of the Robert Caldwell video, where we hear OPS1 Todd Abel “telling” Eric Marsh (quote) “we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”, we actually HEAR Air Attack Rory Collins attempting to do EXACTLY that and telling Thomas French ( in ‘Bravo 33’ ) to start directing his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire ( exactly as OPS1 Abel had just told Marsh he would try to arrange ).
So while we do NOT have radio capture of it… 16 seconds was actually plenty of time for OPS1 Todd Abel himself to make a quick call up to Air Attack Rory Collins for the ‘Air Support on the Yarnell side’ that he had just promised Marsh, and for Rory Collins to now, in turn, be immediately passing that ‘request’ on to Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’.
And if that is what OPS1 Todd Abel actually did… then it is highly likely that Eric Marsh himself would have then HEARD this request from OPS1 Todd Abel going up to Air Attack Rory Collins over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
SIDENOTE: ADOSH was NEVER allowed to even interview Air Attack Rory Collins, and never had the chance to even ask him if it really was OPS1 Todd Abel who asked him to shift attention to the SOUTH side of the fire circa 3:50:21 PM.
So Marsh would have heard OPS1 Abel actually doing exactly what he had just told Marsh he WOULD do. Abel was now “trying to get some Air Support down there ASAP”.
Marsh would have also heard Air Attack Rory Collins’ response to OPS1 Abel, which was probably along the lines of just a quick “Okay… we’ll se what we can do”, and then we hear Rory Collins doing exactly that as he immediately now calls Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ on the Air-To-Air channel.
So here it is… at exactly 3:50:26 PM… and just 16 seconds after OPS1 Todd Abel had finished telling Eric Marsh (quote) “we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”,
———————————————————————————
Air-To-Air channel radio traffic from Panebaker video 20130630_1628_EP
+2:38 ( 1550:36 / 3:50:36 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550:38 / 3:50:38 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550:56 / 3:50:56 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550:58 / 3:50:58 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1551:03 / 3:51:03 PM )
(B33 – French): Ground contact Alpha.
———————————————————————————
So according to this ‘evidence’… it looks like OPS1 Todd Abel did EXACTLY what he had told Eric Marsh he was going to do, in their 3:50:08 PM conversation captured in the Robert Caldwell video.
It appears that the moment OPS1 Todd Abel was done talking to Marsh ( and making that ‘promise’ about “getting Air Support down there ASAP” ),Todd Abel IMMEDIATELY made a call up to Air Attack Rory Collins ( at 3:50:21 PM, on the Air-To-Ground channel ) and asked Collins to refocus the Air Support to the ‘Yarnell’ side of the Fire… and then Air Attack Rory Collins appears to have done exactly that.
But even though Thomas French TOLD Air Attack Rory Collins, at 3:50:56 PM, that he was now “…headed that way”… Thomas French did no such thing. French would NOT ‘turn the attention of Air Support’ to the Yarnell side of the fire for another 40 full minutes… and by then the smoke column had begun to ‘lay down’ and it was now too late for ‘Air Support’ to make any real difference there on the ‘Yarnell’ side of the fire.
** THE RORY COLLINS ‘SAIT’ INTERVIEW
ADOSH was never able to interview ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins.
Only the SAIT was ever ‘allowed’ to ‘interview’ him.
But the SAIT ‘Notes’ from their interview with Rory Collins CONFIRM that Rory Collins remembers TELLING Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) to ‘switch’ the focus of the Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire at 3:50 PM ( Just as we actually HEAR Collins doing in the Air-To-Air radio channel capture ).
From PDF page 19 of the ‘SAIT Yarnell Interview Notes’ ( YIN ) document…
———————————————————————————
SAIT Interview with: Rory Collins – Air Attack LDF – Roseburg
11:00 a.m. 7/13/2013
Interviewers: Jimmy Rocha, Jay Kurth, Mike Dudley, Jim Karels
Rory Collins is a Certified ATGS
Work for Douglas Forest Service as Protection Supervisor
( snip )
( In the 1545 to 1550 timeframe part of his SAIT interview… Rory Collins had these recollections… )
Experienced WIND SHIFT and the FLANK TURNED and became the HEAD going SOUTH to Yarnell.
I let B(33) ( Bravo 33 – Thomas French and John Burfiend ) know PRIOR to the shift to MOVE TO THAT SIDE ( the Yarnell side ) and START DROPS.
The fire was headed for Yarnell moving FAST to the SOUTH.
———————————————————————————————
From Rory Collins’ testimony to the SAIT…
“I let B(33) ( Bravo 33 – Thomas French and John Burfiend ) know PRIOR to the shift
to MOVE TO THAT SIDE ( the Yarnell side ) and START DROPS.”
So Rory Collins WAS accurately recalling to the SAIT investigators what the radio captures also say.
That he DID tell ‘Bravo 33’ that the fire was “headed towards Yarnell” at 3:50 PM… and that they should NOW switch the attention of ‘Air Support’ to that ‘side’ of the fire.
Thomas French ‘acknowledged’ that ‘directive’ from current Air Attack Rory Collins, and even told Collins he was “headed that way”…
…but then he did no such thing.
By the time Thomas French and John Burfiend did ‘get around’ to turning their focus to the ‘Yarnell / Glen Ilah’ side of the fire… ( 40 minutes AFTER being directed to do so by the current Air Attack and ‘agreeing’ with that ‘plan’ ) the opportunity to do ANYTHING to try and protect those communities had already been lost.
If ANY of the 165+ ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits ever does make it to a ‘trial’ and ‘open court’… you can bet your bottom dollar that the ‘Air Support’ over Yarnell is going to become a ‘focal point’ for the trial itself.
And yes… with regards to everything above… the ‘defendants’ ( Arizona Forestry, et al. ) will be calling ‘expert’ witnesses to the stand who will say the same thing that I’m sure many reading hear are ready to reiterate.
That regardless of any ‘directives’ and/or ‘orders’ that Thomas French and John Burfiend had RECEIVED from the CURRENT ‘Air Attack’… the moment Rory Collins LEFT the fire and handed the ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities over to THEM… they were now ‘free’ to do whatever the hell THEY wanted to do… regardless of anything they had ‘agreed’ was the ‘priority’ just minutes earlier.
But THIS time… they are going to have to also supply an EXPLANATION why that is the way things went down between 3:50 and 4:50 PM in Yarnell… on Sunday… June 30, 2013.
You can argue all day long whether any ‘Air Support’ refocus down to Yarnell as early as 3:50 PM would have made any difference that day… or whether such a ‘refocus’ might ( just might ) have provided an opportunity to do an ‘intervention’ with the developing ‘Granite Mountain’ blunder on that side of the fire in that same timeframe…
…but what cannot be argued is that we HEAR both an ‘Air Attack’ and a ‘Lead Plane’ AGREEING to ‘shift focus’ to Yarnell circa 3:50 PM… because it had now become NECESSARY…. and that same ‘Air Attack’ REMEMBERS ‘giving that directive’ to the ‘Lead Plane’ at that exact time ( 3:50 PM )…
…but then it didn’t happen.
WHY NOT?
That question will most likely ( finally ) get ‘answered’ if/when even just ONE of these 165+ lawsuits is ever allowed to simply have “a day in court”.
I am looking for confirmation but I remember reading in I’m comments earlier this year that retardant being dropped on fires is very expensive thus it is usually directed by someone on the ground.
Can we confirm if the drops on peeples valley after Collins left made by French and Burfiend were directed by someone on the ground?
Also I thought I read that Dan Sullivan had been up in a helicopter observing the fire
Reply to Diane lomas post on September 15, 2016 at 11:48 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I am looking for confirmation but I remember reading
>> in I’m comments earlier this year that retardant being
>> dropped on fires is very expensive thus it is usually
>> directed by someone on the ground.
The most ‘expensive’ retardant drop(s) that day in Yarnell began around 1:00 PM… when the CURRENT ‘Air Attack’ with ID of ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark onboard ) decided THEMSELVES to start laying that massive line of retardant ( using VLATS ) all the way from a point near the Saturday Helispot out on the western ‘Weaver Mountain’ ridge… directly across the ‘middle bowl’ and all the way into the foothills to the EAST, just north of Yarnell.
They testified to ADOSH that the REASONS they ( themselves, with no input from the ground forces ) decided to do that were…
1. They had already ‘flown around’ the entire perimeter of the fire, after arriving right around NOON… and due to the fuel loads and the fire activity they were ALREADY seeing even that early in the afternoon… they were absolutely SURE the fire WOULD be going ‘into Yarnell’ during THAT burn cycle… THAT day.
2. Their evaluation of what was happening ‘on the ground’ on the SOUTH side of the fire was that NO ONE was doing ANYTHING that had any real chance of protecting Yarnell.
3. They were so sure that ‘Granite Mountain’ was ( as early as 12:30 PM that day ) totally “out of the game” that they were convinced someone just had them ‘staged’ out there on the western ridge just waiting for another assignment.
4. They saw the Blue Ridge Hotshots just sitting around by their Crew Carriers doing absolutely nothing at all… and they told ADOSH that they were also convinced THAT crew ( Blue Ridge ) should either ‘engage’ or get the hell out of where they were.
5. They reported seeing a bulldozer down on the SOUTH end of the fire… but circa 12:30 PM they said it, too, seemed to just be ‘staged’ and not doing anything at all.
So they decided ( themselves )… that since no one on the ground seemed to be doing anything at all to even try and protect Yarnell… that THEY felt ‘obligated’ to at least TRY and do SOMETHING.
That’s when they decided to lay that massive WEST-to-EAST retardant line across the fuel bed ( and spend a LOT of money doing so ).
They also told ADOSH they KNEW that was not an ‘ideal’ solution… to just drop that much retardant right on top of the fuel bed… but they also said that given the circumstances of “no one else DOING anything to protect Yarnell”… it seemed like their best option at the time.
Eric Marsh was ‘Division A’ out on the Western Ridge when Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark started this massive ‘retardant line’ project circa 1:00 PM… but they both told ADOSH they had NO COMMUNICATION with Eric Marsh ( DIVSA ) at all.
Eric Marsh was neither ‘consulted’ about the ‘project’ ( which was to begin in HIS Division ) and even once it began he ( apparently ) didn’t have a single word to say about it and he just ‘let it happen’.
>> Diane Lomas also asked…
>>
>> Can we confirm if the drops on peeples valley after
>> Collins left made by French and Burfiend were directed
>> by someone on the ground?
There is no direct evidence that I know of which CONFIRMS that.
It still just looks like as soon as ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins left Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM… Thomas French and John Burfiend then decided to just IGNORE the ‘plan’ they had agreed to just minutes earlier at 3:50 PM ( to switch the ‘Air Support’ focus to the Yarnell side of the fire )… and they then proceeded to just do what THEY wanted to do… which was to use all available Tanker resources to just ‘tidy up’ that ‘retardant line’ they had been working on in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road areas.
Even in the Panebaker videos you can see that the WIND had already ‘shifted’ and was now blowing the fire AWAY from those areas… but they still continued to use all available Tanker resources ( including a VLAT ) to ‘tidy up’ that project until Thomas French was ‘happy’ with it.
There COULD have been more ‘Air To Ground’ communications in this timeframe that might explain WHY they remained myopically focused on this now-no-longer-a-high-priority project there on the NORTH side ( while the fire was rushing towards Yarnell on the SOUTH side )… but if they happened they don’t appear to have been ‘captured’ in the radio channel recordings being made by the Panebaker AFUE team.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> Also I thought I read that Dan Sullivan had been up
>> in a helicopter observing the fire.
There is no evidence I know of that establishes that… but I suppose it is possible. OPS1 Todd Abel and OPS2 Paul Musser did a ‘recon flight’ that morning… and OPS1 Abel did another one later on which OPS2 Paul Musser said he was too busy to go on… but I suppose it is possible that for that SECOND ‘recon’ that OPS2 Paul Musser did NOT go on… OPS1 Abel *might* have asked this “Air Support Group Supervisor” (ASGS) Dan Sullivan to accompany him.
It’s POSSIBLE… but I doubt it. If that really happened… I think there would be more ‘testimony’ and/or ‘evidence’ to support it… and there isn’t.
Only Dan Sullivan knows what the hell he was actually DOING all day in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… but as far as is known… ASGS Dan Sullivan was never interviewed by ANYONE.
Just as was the case with fellow ‘Prescott National Forestry’ employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… there seems to have been a concerted effort being made to HIDE the fact that this ‘Prescott National Forest’ based ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ was ever actually THERE in Yarnell at all.
If AA believed that nobody was defending Yarnell why did they in fact go to an area that needed no defending at that moment using the retardant there instead of using the retardant where it was not only needed but where they had been directed to assist.
Their reasoning makes no sense and suggests that something else was going on.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
September 15, 2016 at 3:47 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> If AA believed that nobody was defending
>> Yarnell why did they in fact go to an area
>> that needed no defending at that moment
>> using the retardant there instead of using
>> the retardant where it was not only needed
>> but where they had been directed to assist.
>>
>> Their reasoning makes no sense and suggests
>> that something else was going on.
First of all… I apologize if I confused you… or if I didn’t make myself clear above.
The ‘Air Attack’ position over Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 actually changed hands FOUR TIMES that day.
‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) are the ones who ‘became’ the ‘Air Attack’ at 11:58 AM that day, relieving ‘Rory Collins’ who had to go refuel.
‘Bravo 3’ is the ‘Air Attack’ that took that ‘fly around’ the fire circa 12:30 PM and realized that the fire WAS going to go into Yarnell THAT DAY… during THAT burn cycle.
‘Bravo 3’ is the ‘Air Attack’ that then also decided ( from what they could see from the Air ) that this Hotshot crew called ‘Granite Mountain’ was performing ‘useless work’ and they were already ( as early as 12:30 PM ) totally ‘out of the game’ as far as making any difference in ‘protecting Yarnell’.
Ditto for the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’. They saw them doing NOTHING AT ALL ‘down there’ and not lifting a finger to even ‘try’ and protect anything circa 12:30 PM.
So that is when ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) decided to spend all that effort ( and all that MONEY ) laying that ‘retardant line’ clear across the unburned fuel of the ‘middle bowl’ to ‘try and protect Yarnell. They told ADOSH they knew it wasn’t ideal… but give the fact that Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge and the ‘staged dozer’ were doing NOTHING to protect Yarnell proper… they felt they had to at least try to do SOMETHING to protect Yarnell.
It was the OTHER aircraft with designation ‘Bravo 33’ ( Two 3’s instead of just one 3 ) that contained Thomas French and John Burfiend.
‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) are the ones who RELIEVED ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) at around 2:50 PM that day.
‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) initially only assumed the ‘Lead Plane’ duties after arriving… because Rory Collins had already returned from re-fueling circa 1:30 PM and had taken just the ‘Air Attack’ duties BACK from ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ).
It would not be until 3:58 PM, when Rory Collins then had to leave Yarnell airspace ( for the SECOND time that day ) that ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) would then assume BOTH ‘Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities.
Here’s a ‘Readers Digest’ version of the ‘Air Attack’ swapouts that actually took place that day over Yarnell…
Sunday, June 30, 2013
8:02 AM – Rory Collins arrives over Yarnell and begins functioning as the first ‘Air Attack’ over the Yarnell Hill Fire that morning. He was also acting as ‘Lead Plane’ for this first ‘shift’ over the Yarnell Hill Fire.
11:58 AM – ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrive over Yarnell to take over both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ duties from the departing Rory Collins, who had to go refuel.
1:30 PM – Rory Collins ‘arrives’ back over Yarnell and takes back just the ‘Air Attack’ duties again from ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ). ‘Bravo 3’ remains over Yarnell performing just ‘Lead Plane’ duties now.
2:50 PM – ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) have just arrived over Yarnell and are taking over just ‘Lead Plane’ duties from the departing ‘Lead Plane’ ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ). Rory Collins is still the ‘Air Attack’.
3:50 PM – Air Attack Rory Collins tells Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) that there is a (quote) “Heck of a wind shift” in progress with (quote) “A LOT of fire headed towards Yarnell” and instructs Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ to switch the attention of the ‘Air Support’ to the Yarnell side of the fire. Thomas French tells Rory Collins he is (quote) “headed that way”.
3:58 PM – Air Attack Rory Collins tells lead plane ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) that he has to leave the area because his pilot is ‘timing out’ on flight hours. Collins ‘hands over’ the ‘Air Attack’ duties to ‘Bravo 33’ and they are now both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’… just as ‘Bravo 3’ was earlier in the day when Collins had to leave to refuel. ‘Bravo 33’ would now remain both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ for the next 63 minutes… throughout the advance of the fire into Yarnell and Glen Ilah and on through the ‘deployment’ incident itself.
5:11 PM – ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) ‘hand over’ both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ duties to the now-returning ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) and ‘Bravo 33’ now leaves the Yarnell area. ‘Bravo 3’ would now remain both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ for the continuing ‘suppression efforts’ until dark and the end of Air Operations over Yarnell for Sunday, June 30, 2013.
So the ‘Air Attack’ changed hands FOUR times that Sunday…
1. Rory Collins -> ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis, Paul Lenmark )
2. ‘Bravo 3’ -> Back to Rory Collins
3. Rory Collins -> ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, John Burfiend )
4. ‘Bravo 33’ -> Back to ‘Bravo 3’
And the ONLY TIME that day when the ‘Air Attack’ was ‘swapped out’ and the ‘incoming’ Air Attack did NOT ‘follow the plan’ given to them by the ‘outgoing’ Air Attack is when ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) were given both ‘Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities, at 3:58 PM.
Reply to WTKTT air attack over yarnell
Thank you for this information
I have read that Brad Sullivan was on the ground Sunday, June 30th directing aerial resources to stay focused on the north side of the fire rather than focusing to the south side which badly needed retardant drops at that time.
Can anyone confirm this?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
September 15, 2016 at 4:12 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> I have read that Brad Sullivan was on the ground
>> Sunday, June 30th directing aerial resources to
>> stay focused on the north side of the fire rather
>> than focusing to the south side which badly
>> needed retardant drops at that time.
>>
>> Can anyone confirm this?
Well… first of all… I think you mean ‘Dan Sullivan’… and not someone named ‘Brad Sullivan’?
Someone named ‘Dan Sullivan’ WAS hired ( at 9:30 AM Sunday morning ) to come down from Prescott and function as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) in Yarnell.
He’s the one ( DAN Sullivan ) who we KNOW was there in Yarnell acting as an ‘ASGS’ from about 10:30 AM on through the deployment… but we still have no idea what he was DOING that whole time other than checking out an airstrip at the Maughan Ranch that MORNING for ‘suitability’ as an alternate Helibase.
For the entire afternoon… there is no ‘evidence’ or ‘testimony’ to tell us WHAT the hell he even *might* have been doing the rest of that day.
The next time he ‘surfaces’ he is being placed in the Glen Ilah subdivision and the one who was ‘rescuing’ Bryan Smith and his 84 year-old cousin Pearl Moore ( Rest in Peace ). That’s one of the ‘rescues’ for which SPGS1 Gary Cordes was given the AWIMA ‘Firefighter of the Year’ award for… but Bryan Smith himself has since identified Dan Sullivan as the one doing that rescue… and NOT Gary Cordes.
But we still have NO IDEA what sort of ‘ASGS’ duties this Dan Sullivan guy was performing that day ( if any )… or what ( if anything ) he might have been telling the people in the airplanes to do regarding ‘Air Support’… or if he ever even TRIED to do anything like that.
Prescott National Forest based ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ was ( as far as we know ) NEVER ‘interviewed’ by any investigators… even though he was THERE all day in Yarnell and ( supposedly ) a ‘functioning’ “Air Support Group Supervisor”.
Look at it this way, when the original Air Attack bugged out he said “you gotta skin this cat, start at the belly”…
The incoming air attack said ” we can skin this cat but we are gonna start at the ears”.
Everyone has a different way of doing things. There is NO textbook answer as to what is right or wrong… It depends on what Air Attack sees and decides to do, not what the previous Air attack “suggested”…
Please move on… It’s a dead horse not worth flogging.
Well… that didn’t take long.
There’s the expected ( and totally predictable ) comment of…
“Air Attacks do whatever the fuck they want… even if they had just AGREED with the previous one to do something entirely different. Nothing to see here… move along”.
What is worth pointing out here is that for ALL of the other ‘Air Attack’ swap-outs that happened that day both BEFORE and AFTER the deployment… ALL of the ‘other’ Air Attacks did, in fact, continue to follow the ‘plan’ that was GIVEN to them by the PREVIOUS Air Attack before that one left the airspace.
The only time that did NOT happen that day was this 3:58 PM swap-out between ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins and when he ‘passed off’ to Thomas French and John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’.
That is the ONLY time that day that the current ‘plan’ that was passed on from the outgoing ‘Air Attack’ to the ‘incoming’ one ended up completely IGNORED once that other Air Attack left the scene.
It still deserves an EXPLANATION.
WHY did just ‘tidying up’ an already-sufficient retardant line in a now-no-longer-priority spot on the fire take on such importance that the ‘new’ Air Attack would then IGNORE the ‘directives’ he had already been given ( and had AGREED to ) by the previous Air Attack?
It wasn’t just a little bit of fire headed towards Yarnell circa 3:50 PM and onward.
It was an EMERGENCY SITUATION.
If ever there was a time for ‘Air Support’ to basically ‘drop what it HAD been doing’ and IMMEDIATELY turn its attention to another part of the fire… this was it.
But it didn’t happen.
Whatever opportunity there was to have done ANYTHING with the on-scene Air Tankers AND the ‘inbound’ VLAT to protect even just SOME of Yarnell or Glen Ilah was LOST… and only because Thomas French decided to ‘finish up’ his little retardant line on the north side.
So was it just OCD ( Obsessive / Compulsive Disorder ) on Thomas French’s part… or had someone on the ground TOLD him to ignore what was happening on the Yarnell side of the fire?
Inquiring minds ( still ) want to know.
Thank you WTKTT common sense says you are right
The ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities changed hands FOUR times over Yarnell, that Sunday, June 30, 2013…
1. Rory Collins -> ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis, Paul Lenmark )
2. ‘Bravo 3’ -> Back to Rory Collins
3. Rory Collins -> ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, John Burfiend )
4. ‘Bravo 33’ -> Back to ‘Bravo 3’
And the ONLY TIME that day when the ‘Air Attack’ was ‘swapped out’ and the ‘incoming’ Air Attack did NOT ‘follow the plan’ given to them by the ‘outgoing’ Air Attack is when ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) were given both ‘Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities, at 3:58 PM.
There still MIGHT be a ‘valid explanation’ for that… but until we hear and/or discover what it is… Thomas French’s refusal to ‘follow the plan’ that had been agreed upon circa 3:50 PM with the ‘outgoing’ Air Attack remains a ‘question’ that DESERVES an ‘answer’.
You can actually ‘forget’ ( for just a moment ) about anything OPS1 Abel told Eric Marsh ( at 3:50 PM ) about “we’ll get some Air Support down there AS SOON AS POSSIBLE” and about the fact that just 16 seconds later… Air Attack Rory Collins was TELLING Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ to switch the focus of ‘Air Support’ to Yarnell.
That is still the same exact time ( circa 3:55 PM ) when SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself told OPS1 Todd Abel to tell Air Support to start “Dropping at will” down on the YARNELL side of the fire… because everything was ALREADY ‘going to shit’ down there.
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ own ‘handwritten’ Unit Log…
———————————————————–
Date: June 30, 2013
Time: 1555 ( 3:55 PM )
Fire hitting top of ridge on north side of town.
I asked OPS Abel to have Air Operations start “Dropping at will”.
Also advised I had lost the use of my Air To Ground frequency.
———————————————————–
3:55 PM: “I asked OPS Abel to have Air Operations start “Dropping at will”.
So even Gary Cordis himself had every ‘expectation’ that, after making his OWN request for IMMEDIATE ‘Air Support’ for YARNELL ( as early as 3:55 PM ), that it would be happening ‘at any moment’. ( and since that request was made over an open TAC channel… it is most likely DIVSA Eric Marsh heard it as well and would have had the same ‘expectations’ that SPGS1 Cordes did that it WOULD ‘happen’ )…
But it didn’t.
Not for another 40 minutes… when it was too late to make any difference at all.
In reading comments from January,2016 I learned the following:
Jan 17 2016 Robert The Second stated that Roy Collins came from Oregon and worked with ODF (Oregon Dept of Forestry) and DFPA (Douglas Forestry Protection Association)
who were all about saving private and commercial timber.
It was Collins who dumped retardant on Marsh’s burnout and forced him to go direct on the fire’s edge.
IIRC ( If I Recall Correctly )… poster RTS was also saying that he knew first-hand that what the ‘Oregon’ Air Support people ( such as Rory Collins ) don’t really even ‘believe’ in was this thing called ‘Indirect Attack’.
And that is what Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were trying to do when they first arrived at the ‘anchor point’ and ‘went to work’.
They were trying to do an ‘Indirect Attack’ and light their OWN ‘burnoffs’ to try and take the existing ‘black’ areas over to meet up with the ‘two track’ road(s) they had hiked up on.
And THOSE are the ‘manual ignitions’ that Air Attack Rory Collins then ‘dumped retardant on’ just because he didn’t agree with that ‘Indirect Attack’ strategy that DIVSA Eric Marsh was attempting to use that morning.
Here is all that Rory Collins himself had to say about this ‘dumping on Marsh’s indirect burnouts’ when Collins was interviewed by the SAIT.
NOTE: ADOSH was never allowed to interview this elusive Rory Collins.
From the SAIT ‘Notes’ from their interview with Rory Collins…
Q = SAIT interviewer
A = Rory Collins
‘Division A’ = Eric Marsh
————————————————————————
Q: Did you have any more conversations with Division A?
A: I mainly talked to Div. A in the morning. I didn’t know his name or crew. It took them about two hours to get to the anchor point on the ridge.
Q: What tactics were discussed?
A: To hold the south flank of the fire – dropping SEATS. There was small burnout beyond my retardant line. He did a small burnout and I dropped on it to keep it under control. He was going to burn off the trail on the ridge to keep the fire to the east. He decided to stop the burnout and build line.
————————————————————————
Other testimony ( such as Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs ) tell a different story than what Rory Collins apparently told the SAIT investigators.
Other testimony says that it was obvious that Air Attack Rory Collins was ‘dumping retardant’ to EXTINGUISH Granite Mountain’s ‘indirect attack’ because that simply wasn’t what HE wanted them to be doing.
He ( like most Oregon Forestry people, apparently ) wanted them to do ‘Direct Attack’ that morning… not ‘Indirect Attack’… and FORCED them to do so by extinguishing their ‘manual ignitions’.
And here is exactly how Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby
described it in his own handwritten ( but still redacted ) ‘Unit Log’…
———————————————————————-
During this time ( that morning ) we were listening to Granite Mountain talk to Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) about pre-treating the green side of the burnouts they were doing. Air Attack told them they will drop the SEATS on the heat and they could go DIRECT, instead.
—————————————————————–
NOTE: The next full sentence in Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log is completely redacted ( blacked out )… but it would appears to have been Frisby describing what Eric Marsh’s reaction was to Air Attack Rory Collins telling him he wanted him to go DIRECT instead of INDIRECT.
According to Frisby… Air Attack Rory Collins was simply TELLING ‘Division A’ Alpha that he WAS going to ‘extinguish the indirect burnouts’ because he WANTED Granite Mountain to ‘go DIRECT’… and not work ‘INDIRECT’.
And here is what Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown had to say about it all in his TYPED ( but also redacted ) Unit Log.
He tells basically the same ‘story’ that Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby… and there is an identical REDACTION in Brown’s log whereby Eric Marsh’s REACTION to Rory Collins’ attempt to get Granite Mountain to do DIRECT instead of INDIRECT is also mysteriously ‘blacked out’ in Brown’s Unit Log, just as it was in Frisby’s Unit Log.
From Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent
( Captain ) Trueheart Brown’s TYPED Unit Log…
———————————————————–
10:30 AM
At this time we contact ( Granite Mountain ) on TAC 1 and then we need to switch to TAC 3 since there is an issue with the frequencies/tones. We discuss what they are doing and an overall plan. The currently have to burn out the upper 2 track from “The Saddle” to the southeast to stay ahead of the main fire since they cannot go direct at this time.
10:45 AM
Blue Ridge IHC takes our first weather observations of the day. There are only SEATs on scene right now and ( DIVSA, Eric Marsh ) contacts Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) and tells him that he would like them to pre-treat the green side of the upper 2 track that is leading from the saddle to the East. The next SEAT that comes in puts his load directly on the main black edge and then ( Eric ) gets on the radio and tells Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) again what the plan is. Air Attack ( Collins ) states that if they can get this next one to knock the heat out of one area they ( being Granite Mountain ) will be able to go DIRECT on the fires edge.
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Entire Next Line REDACTED xxxxxxxxxx )
Shortly thereafter ( xxxx REDACTED xxxx ) leaves and heads to the structures. Granite Mountain appears to start going DIRECT on the main edge.
————————————————————
So it appears that Air Attack Rory Collins was ‘successful’ in forcing Granite Mountain to ‘abandon’ their INDIRECT attack… and they eventually changed their plan to a DIRECT attack… as Rory Collins wanted them to.
And it also appears that the “powers that be” did NOT want anyone reading about what Eric Marsh’s actual REACTION to this was since that ‘reaction’ is specifically ‘blacked out’ in both Brian Frisby’s AND Trueheart Brown’s official ‘Unit Logs’.
I also noted that Marti Reed stated on Investigative Media on Jan. 16,2016 at 6:14 pm
that Dan Sullivan was strategizing in conversations with John Burfiend over air to
ground.
I am not sure what this means but was hoping that some of you would have some
insight.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on September 16, 2016 at 4:39 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I also noted that Marti Reed stated on Investigative Media
>> on Jan. 16,2016 at 6:14 pm that Dan Sullivan was strategizing in
>> conversations with John Burfiend over air to ground.
In the ‘posting’ you are referring to… Marti Reed was just continuing a conversation about who MIGHT have been ‘coordinating’ the afternoon retardant drops.
She ‘suggested’ that ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ might have actually been the one talking directly ( on the Air-To-Ground channel ) with John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’, and possibly ‘setting priorities’ for retardant drops even after Air Attack Rory Collins left Yarnell at 3:58 PM.
And that is a VALID thing to speculate about.
It MIGHT have happened.
But there is still NO EVIDENCE ( or testimony ) that it DID.
Marti was just ‘suggesting’ that IAW ( If And When ) an actual ‘contiguous’ recording of ALL the ‘Air To Ground’ channel radio traffic were ever to ’emerge’… then we just MIGHT hear someone like ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ attempting to ‘direct’ retardant drops. And she is RIGHT about that.
But no such contiguous ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel recording has ever seen the light of day… even though ‘operational procedures’ for this AFUE study that was taking place there in Yarnell that day say it was SUPPOSED to be done ( Contiguous recordings of BOTH the A2A and A2G channels ).
The original post you are talking about is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-323102
And here is what Marti Reed actually said…
—————————————————————
On January 16, 2016 at 6:14 pm, Marti Reed said…
Thanks WTKTT.
This is why I think we need both an interview with Dan Sullivan and the Air To Ground Channel recording that I’m 99.999999999% certain exists via the Air Study crew.
You have all along been sounding like you’re assuming that Tom French was “running this show”, disconnected from ground operations. I have NEVER thought that. I have ALWAYS believed the retardant drops were being being coordinated with someone on the ground. That’s the way it happens, for the most part.
Which is why when you linked Sullivan with the “that’s where we want it” “communique,” I thought BINGO.
I want to know how much Brad Sullivan was involved in those decisions to keep the aerial resources focused on the north side of the fire, finishing those ops, while the fire was turning toward the south. I just don’t believe it was purely Tom French. He was just the Lead Plane pilot, not some kind of strategist.
The strategist would have been, imho, Dan Sullivan. Well, Dan Sullivan in conversations with John Burfiend over Air 2 Ground, thus the need for that channel recording to accurately determine who was making what decisions.Those decisions would have been the purview of Dan Sullivan and John Burfiend, imno, and not Tom French.
Namaste
————————————————————
So it seems that some key people to the Yarnell Hill fire such as Dan
Sullivan, Yavapai County Superintendent R Simmons, Blue Ridge hotshots
and others have not been interviewed. Without their input as well as
redacted information and the content of Eric Marsh”s cell phone
the narrative of
what happened on the Yarnell Hill fire could be very different .
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
September 17, 2016 at 9:23 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> So it seems that some key people to the Yarnell Hill
>> fire such as Dan Sullivan, Yavapai County Superintendent
>> R Simmons, Blue Ridge hotshots and others have not
>> been interviewed.
Yes. Add ‘properly interviewed’ to that… and the LIST goes on and on and on.
For example: Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of he SAIT had full access to the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ AND to their UNREDACTED ‘Unit Logs’. ADOSH did not.
ADOSH never even KNEW to even TRY and interview Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell because Mike Dudley and the SAIT did everything they could to ‘hide’ the fact that they were even there in Yarnell.
Add bulldozer operator ‘Paul Morin’ to the list.
Everything that was taking place all day on the south side of the fire either directly or indirectly involved that Yavapai County bulldozer and Yavapai County Public Works employee Paul Morin.
He even ended up a ‘missing person’ and was ADDED to the list of people ( along with Granite Mountain ) that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was supposed to be ‘trying to find’ later that day.
But as far as we know… Dozer operator Paul Morin was NEVER even ‘interviewed’ by ANYONE… SAIT included.
As I said… the LIST goes ‘on and on’.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> Without their input as well as redacted information
>> and the content of Eric Marsh”s cell phone
>> the narrative of what happened on the Yarnell Hill
>> fire could be very different .
I think you meant to say ‘WITH their input” ( the input of those never interviewed at all and/or never properly interviewed ).
Yes… WITH even just SOME of that ‘missing input’… the ‘story’ could end being VERY different from what is currently ‘known’ or ‘believed’.
If ANY of the 135+ Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits ever makes it to ‘trial’… hopefully ALL of these people will ( finally ) have to ‘testify’ ( under oath ).
And even if whatever ‘lawsuit’ might make it to ‘trial’ is LOST… the vary act of finally hearing from these people would still likely “fill in most of the missing pieces” to this Historic ‘puzzle’ known as the Yarnell Hill Fire.
WTKTT,
Yes I Did mean to type “with their input” rather than “without their
input”.
The redacted information and people not interviewed is very telling.
During those 40 critical minutes after Roy Collins left the Yarnell Hill fire about 3:50 pm
on June 30,2016 did Todd Abel or anyone else intervene to prompt AA
to move to Yarnell?
WTKTT and any one interested I brought this to the top as the discussion was being lost below.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-346996
You and I certainly agree on that Bob. It is inconceivable to me for a hand crew to authorized to drive that far. Engines yes…if they are needed and closer resources are exhausted.
That was the biggest red flag to me and smells of a “buddy deal” that was done in the back room or with a phone call from the BIA rep to NIFC because he or she got one from the tribe.
Driving that far in costly, dangerous and extremely inefficient use of time and resources. You can never even come close to making the numbers work when comparing the cost of mileage to common carrier transport.
I suspect the reason for the deal, other than the obvious one to kick off the unauthorized and illegal special Indian Welfare Program by the corrupt and insanely mismanaged BIA by putting the crew in a position to run up their hours by a lot….was to put them in a position where they could then bounce from fire to fire and state to state and end up with some astronomical checks to both the crewmen and the sending unit.
This smells like a well developed racket that has been carefully planned out by one person who should be investigated six ways from Sunday because I promise you she is as DIRTY as they come…Doreen Baker. I would love to do it…on an AD rate but I want to drive to Beartown U.S.A. – Road Trip!
INSANE
I completely agree with you & Mr. Bob. You hit on 2 of the reasons why they would do that (travel so far in their own vehicles.) 1. Mo Money!!! 2. So they could be assigned to different fires while they are already all the way out there. But there is a number 3. Convenience. The ‘Stoner Crew’ would never pass through TSA at a jetport, right?
Additional misc. opinion:
When traveling in a convoy, the lead vehicle sets the pace. The rearmost vehicle ALWAYS has to drive faster to keep up in order to stay together. An accordion effect, if you will. If the lead vehicle is driving like an asshole, it makes it more difficult to keep up. Been there done that. Katrina anyone? This is one contributing factor in the Beartown rollover incident that I would like to point out because it may not be well known. There are apparently many other direct and indirect contributing factors as well.
Woodsman
In some of the early news reports (perhaps those accompanying the pictures of the rest of the crew wearing zip-ties and sitting next to their crew carrier), I think I remember the report stating that, they were pulled-over some distance from the accident scene, while they had been continuing-on to the fire assignment.
If my memory is correct regarding this report, what crew on planet earth would continue on to a fire assignment after one of their crew-members was killed and several others injured?
What agency on planet earth would allow that to happen? (I know, Gary has already explained it, it was rhetorical),
If true, the fire IMT should have made sure their resource order was canceled so they could remain with their comrades, in mourning and supporting those in the accident vehicle. I’m sure it never even crossed the minds of the IMT, because WHO ON EARTH would leave their injured crew-members behind?
I HOPE I’M WRONG ABOUT THIS, but as I said, I think this is how it was stated in the article, because at the time I read it, it was a WTF moment for me.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on September 13, 2016 at 2:27 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> In some of the early news reports (perhaps those accompanying
>> the pictures of the rest of the crew wearing zip-ties and
>> sitting next to their crew carrier), I think I remember the report
>> stating that, they were pulled-over some distance from the
>> accident scene, while they had been continuing-on to the
>> fire assignment
That other Crew Carrier with NWCG-assigned Unit ID of “KBT 003” belonging to this BIA co-sponsored and BIA co-managed “Beartown Firefighter” Crew was ‘pulled over’ in a Gas Station in Bloomington, Minnesota, about 5:00 PM on August 27, 2016.
That is only 2 hours after the fatal rollover ( at 3:00 PM ) in Blaine, Minnesota, and only 30 ( THIRTY ) miles away from the ‘scene of the fatal accident’.
So that ‘some distance’ you refer to was only 30 miles.
Whatever they were doing ( the other “Beartown” vehicles )… they had inexplicably only gotten 30 miles away from the fatality scene TWO HOURS after the accident.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If my memory is correct regarding this report, what crew on planet
>> earth would continue on to a fire assignment after one of their
>> crew-members was killed and several others injured?
>>
>> What agency on planet earth would allow that to happen?
>> ( I know, Gary has already explained it, it was rhetorical ),
>>
>> If true, the fire IMT should have made sure their resource order was
>> canceled so they could remain with their comrades, in mourning
>> and supporting those in the accident vehicle. I’m sure it never even
>> crossed the minds of the IMT, because WHO ON EARTH would
>> leave their injured crew-members behind?
>>
>> I HOPE I’M WRONG ABOUT THIS, but as I said, I think this is how it
>> was stated in the article, because at the time I read it, it was a WTF
>> moment for me.
Among a LOT of other WTF moments regarding these recent deaths of two Wildland Firefighters in Blaine, Minnesota… this one stood out for me, as well.
When DID the ‘other crewmembers’ actually even become AWARE that the crash took place… and what did they do then?
Is it conceivable ( plausible? ) that they WERE aware it had taken place, WHEN it took place?
Is it even POSSIBLE they really did make some conscious and/or deliberate choice to basically ‘flee the scene’ and/or ‘not return’ to the scene of the accident?… possibly because they DID have ‘drugs’ onboard their own vehicles and they needed time to ‘get rid’ of them before being ‘searched’, themselves… as they WERE 2 hours later when the police finally ‘caught up’ with them in Bloomfield, just 30 miles away?
It was actually only the MEDIA that was reporting that the “Beartown” vehicles had become ‘separated’… and that might be why they were ‘unaware’ that the accident even took place… but then these ‘media’ reports were totally contradicted when the actual CRIMINAL COMPLAINT was filed by the Anoka County prosecutor.
Michigan News 26
http://www.minews26.com/content/?p=46056
Article Title: Michigan Firefighters Killed in Car Crash While Traveling to Help Fight Wildfire in Utah
Published: August 29, 2016 – By Jacob Owens
From that article…
————————————————————————-
Two northern Michigan firefighters were killed on their way to assist with fighting a wildfire out west.
According to the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, a group of thirteen firefighters were heading to the Box Canyon fire in Utah.
The firefighters, from Beartown in the U.P. were traveling in a convoy and the trucks had become separated for a short time.
While separated one of those trucks was involved in a car accident.
Details of the accident are limited, but the Minnesota State Patrol says the truck left the road, hit the median and rolled over.
James Shelifoe Jr and Alan Swartz were killed in the crash. Seven others were injured, their exact conditions are unavailable, but they are expected to recover.
—————————————————————————-
Bill Gabbert of ‘Wildfire Today’ ended up reporting the same thing, at 10:17 PM on the same day and only about 7 hours after the fatal rollover…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Two wildland firefighters killed in Minnesota vehicle accident
Published: 10:17 p.m. MDT August 27, 2017 – By Bill Gabbert
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/08/27/two-wildland-firefighters-killed-in-minnesota-vehicle-accident/
————————————————————————
The truck was southbound on I-35W near 95th Avenue. The truck left the roadway for an unknown reason, struck the median cable barriers, and rolled. A total of nine people were in the vehicle. There were 11 other firefighters en route to the same fire.
They were traveling in a convoy but had become separated.
Two hours after the 3:00 PM crash ( at around 5:00 PM ) a second Beartown truck carrying nine more firefighters was stopped in Bloomington, Minnesota.
Their hands restrained behind their backs they sat along a curb, individually questioned, and left on their way.
Bloomington is about 30 miles from Blaine, Minnesota where the crash occurred.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: It not only remains ‘odd’ that the other TWO ‘Beartown’ vehicles would NOT have ‘pulled over’ following the accident… or returned to the scene when they became aware of what happened… but that TWO HOURS had transpired before they were ‘stopped’ by police to be ‘searched’… but they had only traveled 30 miles farther on ( to Bloomington, Minnesota ) in those TWO HOURS? What’s UP with THAT part of this ‘story’?
In the actual CRIMINAL COMPLAINT filed by the Anoka County Prosecutor against Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson, eyewitness reports directly contradicts any claims that the three vehicles had ‘become separated’ prior to the accident.
NOTE: Prosecutors don’t ‘include’ eyewitness testimony in actual ‘criminal complaint’ charges unless they are pretty damn SURE that what the ‘eyewitnesses’ are all telling the truth… and that these witnesses have already agreed to ‘swear by’ their testimony and REPEAT it ( in Court ) if called upon to do so. A ‘criminal complaint’ becomes the BASIS for a ‘prosecution’… and County DA’s are always pretty damn careful about what is INCLUDED in them in order to ensure a successful ‘prosecution’.
From the ‘criminal complaint’ itself…
——————————————————-
Statements were obtained from various witnesses traveling on Highway 35W at the time of the crash. One witness described driving southbound on Highway 35W and seeing the THREE fire truck vehicles approaching him at a HIGH rate of speed.
——————————————————–
If this ‘eyewitness’ recalls seeing ALL THREE of these “Beartown vehicles” approaching him at “a HIGH RATE of SPEED” just prior to the accident… then the vehicles were NOT SEPARATED at that time. They were TOGETHER, just before the accident.
———————————————————
The witness moved to the right lane of traffic to allow the vehicles to pass him. The witness estimated the vehicles to be traveling approximately 80 to 90 mph in a 70 mph zone.
———————————————————
Again… notice the PURAL reference to ‘vehicles’… as in… ALL of them together, and ALL THREE of them were HAULING ASS just prior to the accident.
———————————————————
After the THIRD vehicle passed, the witness observed the THIRD vehicle swerve into the right lane of traffic approximately three times. The vehicle then swerved again traveling across the lane of traffic onto the right side of the roadway.
———————————————————-
Again… the ‘witness’ seems SURE that he/she counted THREE vehicles passing him/her at a HIGH RATE of speed… and ‘close together’. They were not ‘separated’.
———————————————————-
The vehicle attempted to correct itself but traveled back across the highway ultimately crashing into the barrier on the left. The box separated from the cab and rolled several times.
———————————————————-
Now notice this testimony in the same CRIMINAL COMPLAINT being attributed to ANOTHER ‘eyewitness’… and not even the same one as above…
———————————————————-
ANOTHER witness described contacting 911 before the crash out of concern of the driving conduct of the vehicle. This witness called 911 back after observing the crash and provided consistent details regarding the accident.
———————————————————–
That is just more evidence/testimony that Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson didn’t just ‘suddenly’ fall asleep that day. He had already BEEN ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ for some time prior to the actual fatal accident, and ‘swerving’ in/out of lanes on that Interstate. Badly enough for some OTHER driver in ANOTHER vehicle to actually call 911 about it… PRIOR to the ‘fatal accident’.
But no one in the actual ‘Crew Carrier’ with NWCG Unit ID “KBT 002” noticed this?
No one in that Crew Carrier was even ‘awake’ enough to NOTICE that Johnson was ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ and do an ‘intervention’ of ANY kind… until that one final ‘nod off’ and the resulting FATAL accident?
And no one in the OTHER TWO ‘vehicles’ in that ‘convoy’ was noticing it, either?
How LONG was this ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ and the ‘swerving’ that was bad enough for at least one other drive to call 911 about it actually going on?
For MANY minutes and/or MANY ‘miles’ prior to the actually fatal accident?
And WHO might have actually KNOWN what kind of ‘shape’ Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson was in that afternoon… prior to the accident… but they were ALLOWING him to be driving that ‘Crew Carrier’ at that time, anyway?
LOTS of details ( and the full circumstances ) still need to emerge regarding the deaths of these two Wildland Firefighers at 3:00 PM, August 27, 2016.
WTKTT said:
“That is just more evidence/testimony that Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson didn’t just ‘suddenly’ fall asleep that day. He had already BEEN ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ for some time prior to the actual fatal accident, and ‘swerving’ in/out of lanes on that Interstate. Badly enough for some OTHER driver in ANOTHER vehicle to actually call 911 about it… PRIOR to the ‘fatal accident’.
But no one in the actual ‘Crew Carrier’ with NWCG Unit ID “KBT 002” noticed this?
No one in that Crew Carrier was even ‘awake’ enough to NOTICE that Johnson was ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ and do an ‘intervention’ of ANY kind… until that one final ‘nod off’ and the resulting FATAL accident?”
I say: OR…the driver of the 3rd vehicle & 2nd crew carrier, Michael Johnson, didn’t fall asleep at all, he lost control of his large truck in attempting to keep up with the convoy. Like I said before, if the lead truck is driving 80, the poor bastard in the rear must drive much faster in order to keep up with the rest of the convoy. Each time the lead vehicle passes another vehicle, the obstacle is not always encountered in the same way or ease as subsequent vehicles, and when this happens, the rearmost vehicles must HAUL ASS even more to try to keep up. That used crew carrier rig is certainly not designed for such speed and maneuvering. NO way!
I place blame on whoever was driving the lead vehicle as they set the pace. I also place blame on those attempting to keep the pace to speak up & tell the lead to SLOW THE FUCK DOWN! I would have told them, “I’ll see you when we get there.” Of course, I’m older now.
So if the 2 vehicles in the front only made it 30 miles in 2 hours, I’m going to ‘imagineer’ that they had no idea the rear vehicle crashed until sometime later. When they did finally say to themselves, “Oh Fack! We lost the 2nd crew carrier!” They probably tried calling them on the radio or cellphone & there was no answer. They may have thought they simply were caught up in traffic and would be on their way. After a period of time they began to be concerned and pulled into the next town to “hope for the best.” The PoPo found them and had plenty of time to know what happened when they did not – and began that part of their investigation (search, interviews, etc.)
I agree that over an hour and a half is PLENTY of time to dispose of anything the crew felt necessary to dispose of.
It’s quite possible that the driver (Johnson) didn’t fall asleep at all, although I’m positive that drugs in his system didn’t help matters one bit; it’s quite possible that the driver of the 3rd vehicle in the convoy simply could not keep up with the lead JACKASS, leading to him ‘over-driving’ the design limits of the vehicle, and crashing it. If this is the case, it could have happened very quickly where no passengers had much time to yell out anything. Who the fack ‘falls asleep’ driving a crew carrier at 80-90 mph, weaving in & out of traffic, while trying to keep up with Richard Petty up front?
I call bullshit on falling asleep behind the wheel at those speeds.
Extra credit question for WTKTT (I’m too lazy to do the math right now)
How much time in minutes would it take for a vehicle to travel 30 miles at 80 mph? 85? & 90 mph?
This amount of time – the time it takes to get to the next exit = how much time before the rest of the convoy realized they lost the rear vehicle.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
September 14, 2016 at 3:06 pm
>> Woodsman asked…
>>
>> How much time in minutes would it take for a
>> vehicle to travel 30 miles at 80 mph? 85? & 90 mph?
Online speed/distance/time calculator…
http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/speed_distance_time_calc.html
At 60 mph… it takes 30 minutes to go 30 miles.
At 65 mph… it takes 27 minutes and 41 seconds to go 30 miles.
At 70 mph… it takes 25 minutes and 42 seconds to go 30 miles.
At 75 mph… it takes 24 minutes and 01 seconds to go 30 miles.
At 80 mph… it takes 22 minutes and 30 seconds to go 30 miles.
At 85 mph… it takes 21 minutes and 10 seconds to go 30 miles.
At 90 mph… it takes 20 minutes and 01 seconds to go 30 miles.
At 95 mph… it takes 18 minutes and 56 seconds to go 30 miles.
For that other “Beartown” Crew Carrier to have only gone 30 miles from Blaine, MN to Bloomfield, MN in the TWO hours following the fatal accident… that means the Crew Carrier was only going 15 miles per hour for those 2 hours.
So something is obviously seriously WONKY about the fact that the police finally ‘located’ this second Beartown Crew Carrier only 30 miles from the fatal accident… TWO hours later.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> This amount of time – the time it takes to get to
>> the next exit = how much time before the rest of
>> the convoy realized they lost the rear vehicle.
We still have no idea WHEN any of the other “Beartown Firefighters” who were NOT involved in the fatal rollover actually found out that it had happened.
Given the fact that MOST of those “Beartown” Firefighters all have their own PUBLIC Facebook pages… and they would regularly post to them from ‘Mobile Phones’… then not only did they have the RADIO with which to try and contact the other Crew Carrier… MOST of them had ‘cellphones’ as well… and could have been CALLING the others. Only two of the others died. Maybe one ( or more ) of the ones who were injured were still able to answer their cellphones and THAT is when the other Crew Carrier found out what happened.
But WHEN was that?
We don’t know.
But if the vehicles really were all ‘together’ right around the time of the accident ( as some eyewitness accounts SAY they were )… then I’m having a hard time believing they did NOT know about the accident right when it happened… or that they didn’t notice that the 3rd Crew Carrier had suddenly ‘disappeared’ from behind them just minutes after the ‘rollover’ and then, when they could not ‘raise’ it on the radio… they would not have realized ( within minutes ) that something terrible had happened.
I’d like to know what the REAL story is.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the calcs. So, if the fact witnesses accounts are accurate as far as estimated travel speed, the first 2 vehicles in the convoy may have stopped 20-22.5 minutes later (making it 30 more miles from the accident scene) & ‘laid up’ (doing something)waiting for about 1 hr 40 min to an hr 37 min. It’s safe to say they had an hour & a half and they were doing ‘something’ in this amount of time. I have no idea what.
“>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> This amount of time – the time it takes to get to
>> the next exit = how much time before the rest of
>> the convoy realized they lost the rear vehicle.
We still have no idea WHEN any of the other “Beartown Firefighters” who were NOT involved in the fatal rollover actually found out that it had happened.”
I was simply referring to the time the lead vehicle(s) realized they had ‘lost’ the rear vehicle (they didn’t see them behind them any longer), not that they crashed. I don’t believe (Imagineering/wild ass guess) anyone riding in the crew carrier body after it detached from the chassis & rolled down the freeway, was in any condition to be answering the phone. Could they even find their phones. That’s a violent ride. There must have been gear scattered everywhere. Again, I know I’m engaging in speculation here.
I still think it’s possible that the rear vehicle was not able to drive as fast as they were attempting to drive it (based on design characteristics) & stay on the road, rubber side down. Was he weaving because he was falling asleep or because the damn truck will not perform at that speed, which was faster than the lead vehicle.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
September 14, 2016 at 4:24 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Thanks for the calcs. So, if the fact
>> witnesses accounts are accurate as far
>> as estimated travel speed, the first 2
>> vehicles in the convoy may have stopped
>> 20-22.5 minutes later (making it 30 more
>> miles from the accident scene) & ‘laid up’
>> (doing something)waiting for about
>> 1 hr 40 min to an hr 37 min.
Yes… and therein lies ‘the mystery’.
We still do not KNOW if the Minnesota POLICE actually just ‘found’ the other Crew Carrier ( Unit ID KBT-003 ) in that ‘gas station’ in Bloomfield ( already stopped there )… or whether that is just where they ‘pulled off’ after they found them ‘driving’ on the road and ‘pulled them over’.
We also still do not know if the other ( 3rd ) ‘command vehicle’ was even WITH that Crew Carrier when it was ‘stopped’ and the Crew was ‘zip-tied’ and both the Carrier AND each crewman were physically ‘searched’.
In BOTH of the ‘videos’ posted from that ‘gas station’ ( the one concerned citizen AND the media outfit that showed up there after monitoring police channels ) there is NO SIGN of the ‘command vehicle’… or of CREW BOSS ‘Doreen Blaker’ and whoever else might have been in that 3rd ‘command vehicle’ ( pickup truck ).
That just adds to the mystery.
Did the police ONLY ‘catch up’ with the other Crew Carrier… and now ( 2 hours later )… it, itself, was ‘separated’ from the 3rd ‘command vehicle’… meaning that neither that ‘command vehicle’ or its occupants ( Doreen Blaker, others? ) were ever ‘searched’ like the Crew Carrier KBT-003 was?
If the ‘command vehicle’ carrying CREW BOSS Doreen Blaker ( and others? ) was NOT with that other Crew Carrier at that gas station at 5:00 PM… then where was it? Doing WHAT?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> It’s safe to say they had an hour & a half
>> and they were doing ‘something’ in this
>> amount of time. I have no idea what.
An hour and a half is a LOOONG time to not have any idea where the 3rd vehicle in your convoy is… or why you can’t communicate with it.
They didn’t just pull off to order a pizza.
Who would wait more than an HOUR before assuming the worst and just calling the local police to see if they knew anything?
There were ‘reports’ of the accident appearing in the press even just 30 minutes after it happened. Even someone in the gas station would have probably already known it had happened.
More ‘mysteries’.
>> Woodsman also said.
>>
>> I was simply referring to the time the lead
>> vehicle(s) realized they had ‘lost’ the rear
>> vehicle (they didn’t see them behind them
>> any longer), not that they crashed.
I understand. And see above.
Who would wait more than an HOUR to find out what happened to a vehicle that HAD been right there behind them ( and then suddenly wasn’t )… and then NOT call the local police to see if they knew anything when they were UNABLE to immediately ‘contact’ that vehicle?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I don’t believe (Imagineering/wild ass guess)
>> anyone riding in the crew carrier body after
>> it detached from the chassis & rolled down
>> the freeway, was in any condition to be
>> answering the phone.
>>
>> Could they even find their phones. That’s a
>> violent ride. There must have been gear
>> scattered everywhere. Again, I know I’m
>> engaging in speculation here.
Well… until there is more detail… that’s all we can do.
There are ‘mysteries’ here that DO have ‘answers’… we just don’t know what they are yet.
Surely… if ANY of the ‘survivors’ were still in ANY condition to ‘speak’… they would have been immediately telling the police themselves to CONTACT the other vehicles in the convoy to make sure they know what happened.
The ‘police reports’ suggest that driver Michael Johnson himself was not only basically ‘unhurt’ immediately after the accident… but he was ‘unhurt’ enough to be ‘acting in a belligerent manner’.
So surely Michael Johnson would have ‘informed’ the police they were part of a 3 vehicle convoy… but that they were the last vehicle and the ‘others’ might not realize what happened yet.
And maybe that’s when the initial APB went out for the ‘other’ Beartown vehicles. Basically ‘right away’… with nothing more than the intent to STOP them to INFORM them what had happened.
But it got ‘more complicated’ in the TWO hours that passed before they were even able to FIND just the other Crew Carrier. ( We don’t know if they ever did ‘find’ the 3rd command vehicle with Doreen Blaker onboard ).
By the time they DID stop this other ‘Crew Carrier’… they ALREADY also now apparently had PCRTB ( Probable Cause, Reason to Believe ) there were DRUGS onboard that other Crew Carrier, or on the crewmembers themselves… or BOTH.
That indicates that in-between the time the police responded on-scene to the accident… and the time they finally located that other Crew Carrier 2 hours later… that ‘Michael Johnson’ had already ADMITTED to having smoked marijuana ‘that morning’… and he might have told them even more to give the police the PCRTB they needed to not only STOP the other Crew Carrier for the original ‘notification’ purposes… but to ‘search the hell out of it’ when they finally DID locate it.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I still think it’s possible that the rear vehicle
>> was not able to drive as fast as they were
>> attempting to drive it (based on design
>> characteristics) & stay on the road, rubber
>> side down.
I know there is NOTHING funny about ANY of this… but I do like that ‘turn of phrase’.
Maybe there should be an entry in an ‘Interagency’ Operations document FAQ or something that says…
Q: What is the preferred motor-vehicle travel mode following an NWCG / GACC Dispatch?
A: The preferred motor-vehicle travel mode following an official NWECG / GACC ‘Dispatch’ is rubber side down. ALL other motor-vehicle travel modes require prior approval by the Dispatch Center involved.
>> Woodsteady also said…
>>
>> Was he weaving because he was falling asleep
Well.. apparently… that is what Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson HIMSELF told the police.
>> or because the damn truck will not perform
>> at that speed, which was faster than the
>> lead vehicle.
At the same time I don’t think I can buy into your theory that Michael Johnson was NOT telling the police the ‘truth’… and that it was more a ‘mechanical issue’…
… I do wonder about WHO did the NWCG required INSPECTIONS on those USED Crew Carriers… and WHEN.
WHO ‘certified’ that those USED vehicles really WERE in ‘good enough shape’ to be used as ‘safe transports’ for 9-10 people at a time… at high speeds?
And were these ‘high speeds’ and this apparent game of “Chase Me Charlie” going on out on that Interstate just SOP for this “Beartown” outfit?
Just like Yarnell… are we just witnessing more BDGO / BDBO ( or GOBO for short ) going on?
Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes ( SOP )…
suddenly just becoming
Bad Decisions with Bad Outcome.
Our SOP’s specifically state that we are to ensure that the trees are always, always planted green side up. This rule shall not be bent nor broken.
The final exam in forestry school includes the question: ‘How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?’ Miss THAT one & it’s ‘NO diploma for you!’
golf clap…
Woodsman
ps: I think I’m just going to have a rubber stamp made up with the words: “Findings: People doing stupid shit aided & abetted by management” & start rubber stamping all of these ‘incidents.’ BAM!!!! Next.
Good info, Bob. Thank you.
Prior to 2009, these “Beartown Firefighters” did, indeed, need to have transportation ‘arranged’ if they were dispatched “off the reservation”. That appears to have usually been bus charters.
Doreen Blaker campaigned the Tribal council ( which she is ON ) for their own vans, and in 2009 they took delivery of 3 brand new vehicles. Two Ford 350 vans… and one regular Ford 350 pickup to serve as a command vehicle. The January 2009 Keweenaw Bay Indian Community newsletter has a photo on the first page of the Tribal Council ( Doreen Blaker included ) posing outside in the snow with the three brand new vehicles.
Two years later… in the minutes of the Tribal Council meeting, we see the Council approving the purchase of TWO used Crew Carriers from Albuquerque, New Mexico for $7,000 each.
Those are the two ‘Crew Carriers’ that were just 360 miles into their 1600 mile journey to the ‘Box Canyon Fire’ when the fatal rollover took place at 3:00 PM on August 27, 2016.
The ‘used’ Crew Carrier with NWCG assigned Unit ID ” KBT 002″ is the one that crashed. You can clearly read that Unit ID ( upside down ) on one of the wheel cowlings that was torn from the vehicle in those photos in the media of the crash scene.
On deceased Beartown FF Alan Swartz’s own public Facebook page… he posted a public message at 1:30 PM saying they were ‘stopping to eat’ just north of Blaine, Minnesota, where the fatal rollover of Cre Carrier “KBT 002” was going to take place circa 3:00 PM.
Here is a direct link to the January 2009 KBIC newsletter with the photo of the newly arrived ‘vans’ for the ‘Beartown’ firefighters. Beartown crew boss and tribal council member Doreen Blaker is in the front row.
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/sites/default/files/news/January_2009.pdf
This transport in itself should be a RED FLAG to all Dispatch centers,
NIFC should reevaluate their Dispatch regulations and set what use to be standard the travel directives. I am sure R4 is asking some questions about this as it was their Fire Order through NIFC.
My crews in Twin Falls were always transported by Bus and AIR.
The Hot Shot Crew took their Vehicles to adjacent Forests not more than an 8 Hour Drive or they were Bussed or flown to other Regions.
Most Type 2 crews if not all back then had to have Government provided Transportation. School Buss, Gray Hound or AIR to any place.
I wonder how many of these crews have their own transportation now?
They would have to have a good contractor or organization to fund vehicles get them through inspections and on Equipment contracts. Not impossible but quite expensive,
I know there are severial contractors with Type 6 Engines that they have trained FF on that are AD but Crews are a different thing.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
September 14, 2016 at 7:29 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> This transport in itself should be a RED FLAG to all
>> Dispatch centers,NIFC should reevaluate their Dispatch
>> regulations and set what use to be standard the travel
>> directives. I am sure R4 is asking some questions about
>> this as it was their Fire Order through NIFC.
There is no evidence that ‘R4’ is asking ANY questions at all but it should be noted that Alan Sinclair has posted publicly ( on his Twitter Feed ) that he has been in ‘Baraga, Michigan’, the home base of the “Beartown Firefighters” for more than a week.
‘Alan Sinclair’ was a close friend of Eric Marsh’s, and he has spent most of his career jumping back and forth between jobs with both the BIA and the BLM. He is currently the ‘Incident Commander’ for the SW Area Type 2 Team 3… but he has also been known to be a District FMO for BIA.
So maybe ‘Alan Sinclair’ has been ‘sent’ to ‘Baraga’ to investigate this incident ‘under the radar’ for BIA… with no ‘official’ announcement of any investigation under way. All he says is that he was there (quote) “Helping with the Beartown Fire Crew Fatalities”… with no indication of what ‘helping’ ( for more than a week ) actually means.
From Alan Sinclair’s PUBLIC Twitter feed…
Alan Sinclair @ASINCLAIR13 Aug 31 Michigan, USA
Beautiful sunset tonight, honored to be here at Keweenaw Bay Indian Community. #beartownfirefighters
http://www.instidy.com/alansinclair13/p/1333115345824830197_3497407645
Instagram: alansinclair13 – Alan Sinclair
Been in Baraga, Michigan for the past week helping with the Beartown Fire Crew fatalities. Traveling back to Minnesota and took some time off to fish on Lake Superior in Ashland, Wisconsin. Caught this 40 inch Northern Pike. Awesome day! ( Picture of a fish ).
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I know there are severial contractors with Type 6 Engines
>> that they have trained FF on that are AD but Crews are
>> a different thing.
Different… how?
In 2007… the US Forestry Service redistributed a finding by its own ‘Office of General Counsel’ ( USDA OSC ) about whether not AD ( Administratively Determined ) contract firefighters are ( while they are ‘on the clock’ ) to be considered ‘Federal Employees’.
The OFFICIAL ( legal ) answer was YES.
Here’s a copy of a memorandum sitting right there on US Forestry’s own website…
OGC Opinion Regarding the Status of Personnel Hired under the Pay Plan for Emergency Workers.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/ibp/personnel/6100%20Letter%20OGC%20AD%20opinion%202_7_2007.pdf
The full contents of that USFS ‘memorandum’…
————————————————————–
United States Department of Agriculture
Forest Service
Washington Office
1400 Independence Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20250
Caring for the Land and Serving People
File Code: 6100
Date: February 7, 2007
Route To: (5100)
Subject: OGC Opinion Regarding the Status of Personnel Hired under the Pay Plan for Emergency Workers
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF
Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff
In response to questions from the Forest Service, the USDA Office of the General Counsel (OGC) issued an opinion on December 20, 2005, regarding the status of personnel hired under the Pay Plan for Emergency Workers ( AD Pay Plan ). The purpose of this memorandum is to widely disseminate the information we received from OGC.
We asked OGC whether or not personnel hired under the AD Pay Plan are considered Federal employees.
OGC has advised us that AD hires DO meet the definition of employee under 5 U.S.C 2105(a) because they are
1) appointed in the civil service by an employee of the Federal Government;
2) engaged in the performance of a Federal function; and
3) subject to the supervision of an employee of the Federal Government while engaged in the performance of their duties.
AD hires are, however, exempt from some regulations which apply to other Federal employees. In summary:
– Personnel hired under the AD Pay Plan may perform work considered inherently governmental in nature.
– AD hires are covered under the Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA), however, it is up to the Department of Labor (who administers FECA) to determine specific coverage on a case-by-case basis.
– AD hires are covered under the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), the Military Personnel and Civilian Employees Claims Act (MPCEC) and Section 717 of Title VII of the Civil Rights act of 1964, 42 U.S.C.
– Individuals hired under the AD Pay Plan may not work as AD hires and simultaneously have contracts or Emergency Equipment Rental Agreements for emergency equipment or services with the government. See Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR), subpart 3.601.
-AD hires are excluded from Social Security (FICA) withholdings under 26 USC 3121 (b)(6)(c).
For more information, please refer to the current Pay Plan for Emergency Workers or contact your servicing Human Capital Management office.
/s/ Ronald J. Banegas (for)
KATHLEEN D. BURGERS
USFS Director of Human Capital Management
————————————————————–
So even if these “Beartown Firefighters” were considered AD ‘contract’ hires when there were ‘dispatched’ to the ‘Box Canyon Fire’ via the GACC regional Dispatch System… they were, for all intents and purposes, ‘Federal employees’ as they were ‘on the clock’ and in ‘travel mode’ towards that ‘Box Canyon Fire’.
Which means that there really were TWO FEDERAL EMPLOYEES killed in that fatal rollover of the Crew Carrier with NWCG UnitID “KBT 002”, on August 27, 2016…
…but NO AGENCY has ( so far ) initiated ANY actual ‘investigation’ into the DEATHS of these two ‘civil servants’ and ‘Federal employees’.
Joy,
Why don’t you start a Go Fund Me campaign to cover the expenses you are incurring with your search for the truth? I will be the first one to contribute to your fund.
Gary Olson says
SEPTEMBER 12, 2016 AT 8:17 PM
Joy,
Why don’t you start a Go Fund Me campaign to cover the expenses you are incurring with your search for the truth?
MY REPLY- SOME ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE TO HEAR THIS BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOFUNDME DUE TO THE FEE CHARTS AND SUCH- A PERSON IS ALLOWED A MAX GIFT DONATION PER ANNUAL BY FEDERAL LAW AND I AM A DIRECT PERSON SO I AM MORE LIKE GO DIRECT- NO MIDDLE MAN…BUT I DO HAVE SOMEONE IN CONTROL OF MY LIFE IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE…HE HAS THE PLAN…NO, NOT YOU SONNY….SOFT GIGGLE….SO IN THAT I HAVE “FAITH” MORE SO THAN ANY GOFUNDME THING…FOR ME AS MARTI KNOWS IT IS A PRIDE THING…I COULD EASILY DO GOVERNMENT PAY/DISABILITY BUT I AM SO AGAINST THE GRAIN THAT IF I HAVE A “NEED” I “EARN”/BARDER/TRADE IT…MY PARENTS WILL TELL YOU HOW STUBBORN I AM THERE. I AM NOT ANTI GOVERNMENT JUST WATCHED HOW MY FATHER’S SIDE “LIVED OFF” THE GOVERNMENT INCLUDING MY FATHER—AND I AM ALWAYS CURIOUS HOW MUCH OF THEIR GOVERNED LIVING LED TO THEIR DEATHS SO EARLY ON…MY FAMILY ON BOTH SIDES ARE PRETTY MUCH WIPED OUT/DEAD…MY MOM SIDE TO HEART AND CANCERS- DAD SIDE TOO…MY SURGERY IS FRIDAY…I HOPE MY DUCKS KEEP ROLLING…AND IN ORDER AND DO NOT GO ALL “HOLLYWOOD” ON ME IN MY ABSENCE-
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ed/86/07/ed860707d041f16ec789dce4eb424523.jpg
EVEN THOUGH I CAN’T RESIST A RUBBER DUCKIE 🙂 DAMN HOLLYWOOD- THEY MAKE THINGS LOOK SO COOL— 🙂
I will be the first one to contribute to your fund. ACTUALLY I AM GOING TO SENATOR LEVELS AND HIGHER FOR MY FUNDING/RESOURCES CURRENTLY WITH WHAT WE HAVE AT THE TABLE, BIG “G”…I ALREADY HAVE A PERSON IN THE SHADOWS WORKING THAT AREA…IF THAT PERSON IN THE SHADOWS ASKS A QUESTION OF YOU I WILL LET YOU KNOW AND I ONLY KNOW THAT PERSON WANTED TO MEET IN PERSON IS ALL I KNOW AND NOW I KNOW “WHY”…THE SHADOW PEOPLE SAY SOME INTERESTING STUFF…LIKE NO WAY IN THIS WORLD DID I COME UP WITH THE WORD “PATERNISTCALLY” …WHAT THE HECK DOES IT MEAN THAT SENTENCE ANYWAYS…MAYBE I WILL GET THAT ANSWER IN THE SHADOWS…
Joy,
I am looking past your FOIA costs to the big picture down the road. If you really do have something big you are onto, you are going to need help from a team of people.
I would like to help you and I can be self funded by trading trips to the dunes for trips elsewhere but others are not as blessed as I am. IF you really do have something, you need to start building a war chest to pay for it because the numbers will get big.
I will create the Go Fund Me site for you and put my name on it but I don’t want the money coming to me, it has to be managed by you or someone you designate. The one thing I can offer are my former street and now retirement creds,
I may be able to spin those up in such a way that will make others in the big wild world feel better about contributing their money to that effort than if just the desert walker and fugitive from cookie cutter tract homes sponsors it (no offense) .
You will need to bring in the A Team, Marti, The Woodsman, Bob, RTS if he promises not to sell us out to the Battalion Chiefs (just joking), and we will have to build a special stage with a big green curtain with a PA and fog system for WTKTT to hide behind and we can wheal him around and bill him as the Great and Mighty Oz. It will be really fun. We can hitch the Great Oz up behind my van and just pull him stage with us wherever we go…maybe even to Beartown to meet Doreen. She sounds agressive. I wonder when I will start getting flaming emails from her? I love controversy and a good fight first thing in the morning, .it makes me feel…alive.
Oh…and of course we will need to bring in Tex, Sonny AND Charlie for this one and probably some others I can’t of right now. It will be like are getting the band back together.
Joy’s husband is only one I know off hand that gets offended by calling his ablode a cracker box cookie cutter home. He has labored hard and long to get half of it paid off and is in chains for another 20 years–the American way. Only thing if you get drunk on his block, you are apt to wind up in the wrong bee hive cubical. Fortunately for him and his brother Nick, they don’t drink, of if so such bad wine you can’t handle over a small glass.
For the record, I don’t drink but maybe once a week, in fact not all week-=-and when I do go to the American Legion Hall here, Joy drives me home. She is a teetotaler and they say never trust someone who does not drink. You can trust her though.
Yes, Joy has spent some bucks on FOIA, and I too have footed a lot of the running and other expense related to this. But neither of us expect to be repaid since this type work is better than giving to a church or other welfare organization. It will have some little effect on saving future lives of the wild land fire fighter–that is enough return.
I am glad to see Gary back –life without honest input from people gets boring–we need those that are not afraid of the truth. We have seen too much of the cowardice in this journey of seeking out the truth. Even the movie makers became afraid to touch the truth and I see they espoused Donut to the fullest–goes along with their theme. I wonder if they ever got any truth out of him at the parties they had with him. But then I understand film making–lots of make belief and make up–Blue Ridge got shorted, called Blue River now. I hope Frisby gets a big part, but I don’t think he was invited to any of the parties.
Fun and games, what we have seen up to now about the Yarnell disaster. No one willing to admit to shame or how fucked up they managed the fire and what might be changed of the real reasons 19 young wild land fire fighters are dead. The truth is mostly here and hear, hear–Investigative Media takes pride in the truth–no games–all serious people with top credentials and stern evidence to back their evaluations of the situationl
I better get back to finishing my chicken coop. Two local inbred Californians turned me in on loose chickens. I have two, but you are allowed four. The red and white ones are both good layers, I just ate a fresh egg from Red that she laid yesterday. Boy are those home grown eggs so much better than the runny white eggs of cookie cutterville. The county allows four chickens, so I am safe and the lady from the county authority let me slide on two–its the law. My hens are pets, one in the house now–Joy is training my new dog to not attack Red–Red is such a pet that she bothers you by hanging around while you work–she wants her coop made and has sense enough to know it even with her bead brain–something the California couple have in common with her.
Keep up the good work, the rewards are good for the soul.
Sonny-TEX-Charlie Tex the real name, but not a Texan, Sonny a nickname from child hood and Charlie because Sonny’s name would not post so had to invent a new name and email to be able to post. So I am not disguising here but then I doubt in this day and age that one can.
you ain’t kidding big “G”—you ain’t kidding
if what I learned today is right from an innocent question and thereafter than it matches up even further to compliment the evidence and well I might as well get my funeral arrangements set and in order…
I cannot IMAGINE who could go there…Who…what a joke…
I really with purity was trying to piece the puzzle but how evil…how down right evil…if Charlies are listening I am not the only person who saw the evidence so said with sigh…
no way Big “G” is Bob Powers or even RTS a part of that…no way…they may of been in the structured system on another level but no way did they know the bigger picture…Sonny has been ensuring I am breathing and I usually sleep on my lil’ abode but lately I am nervous I am not going to wake up due to health- but this news is not helping…he has been a great help this week so far.
“Jeepers Creepers” on the beaches/dunes sounds better at this point- yeah I guess Jack was right (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk)
I guess the truth is there and yet I am not capable of handling it.
God Bless You Kyle (tear fell down my cheek) (it wasn’t your time either) (get right or get left)
Hi Gary.
From this point on I am leading my life focus to improved health only- no gofundme for me or Sonny – and as you already know we cannot print up money as fast as another can-
My health is in a complex phase systematically so any HIKES for the hikers will no longer be to do fire assessing or help another…we need to “pause”….but going into the Ponderosa Pines and Juniper areas with fresh clean as ya can get air—that’s my kind of hikes…
As for Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty and Knapp and select others I need to “leave it be”— I got more details than Sonny or Ted but I need to leave it alone…because if I keep coming on here it will “appear” that the very people I entrust will “fish” to see if I am not in one’s right mind and the fire affected me so (IT HAS NOT) when I always came here I gave you “me” with purity which in turn can be seen from others perceptions NOT REALITY as a “attention seeker” and all I seek is health and hikes and change in the firefighting industry…
The evidence that is not yet public goes against the paradigm of the firefighting industry which the magnitude to me is unstoppable and unbeatable and would require the “right” resources and I hope in time YOU get your meeting and such and we support you and would attend such meeting with pure heart (and would hope others here went to that meeting too) and I am proud you have the intelligence and qualifications and credibility and back up of resources and evidence and DANG can I say again THAT INTELLIGENCE and in a way I am glad I know…it allows me to know the “spin” will keep happening and if I say anymore they will put a SPIN on what I say…it will continue to happen because in my investigation they have the right rollers and the proper PR folks…I will come here if I can publicly state evidence but to me stating it as I get it always gets bunched up away from the blog like I am out to seek “I got this” and it is not WHO I AM…I always felt it was MY duty to ensure the changes happened…but it WILL take “right” set of folks not some gal like me who has no more ways to say it…and in the end I think of the man who stated something about the Challenger’s o-rings and how they censored him…I know alot are upset and feel the fires across America are given a hatchet job of an investigation but without “more” people at the forefront this blog is just a place for me to “express” myself…There are many who do not know or have the capabilities to process me…it is ok…I ramble and that is why as a kid I climbed trees and built forts and stayed away from social interactions…I need to be more light and useful versus sharing on here and people getting “weird” signals…the only true weird thing is how this process began and became “allowed” in how they fight fires and destroy lives and homes. It IS fixable but it needs the people to comprehend -the people who fight ’em.
I am prepping for complex Fall surgeries and wish you all a very blessed Fall…Let the season bring you more “ease” than unease or disease- may you be filled with joy and His glory…God Bless….
Everything I said in recent times was not to coax you to think a certain way or be like I have something but you cannot see; it is not mine to share but in due time I hope that person is able to share…it was to make you aware once I heard it I wanted to YELL it from every mountain top but the person getting the ducks in order would be affected so I remained quiet but too many come to the site to know what’s my current thinking and my current thinking is tendrils and stalks and tumors and cells within me…not the external world…Across the board I am in need of better health— exterior and interior —when that comes I will resurface. I have “paused” here before and I am again— The problem and concerns to how they fight fires IS deep seeded and rooted and its very complex/complicated….That is the affirmation I hope I gave you as I go away for a bit… Here is any oxymoron; dysfunctional system. I guess I BELIEVE there is CAPABILITY in all areas to life to be aligned to achieve the results of balance and it takes the word I ingrained from Dr. Ted Putnam; mindfulness. I now see the destructive behavior is being passed down each generation and I am very deeply sorry Jim Roth. I am. What we have here needs “rippling effect” people IN THE SYSTEM to do the RIGHT THINGS…that is where the contributions need to START.
Stepping away does not mean I failed or give up but I am “pausing”
For too long those in the system “tuned out”…and the patterns began to be weaved..
Our interventions must be designed to overcome the existing inertia. The DNA is fine in the firefighting industry it is just some running the show…
GOD BLESS OUR FIREFIGHTING INDUSTRY!
Joy’s husband is only one I know off hand that gets offended by calling his ablode a cracker box cookie cutter home. He has labored hard and long to get half of it paid off and is in chains for another 20 years–the American way. Only thing if you get drunk on his block, you are apt to wind up in the wrong bee hive cubical. Fortunately for him and his brother Nick, they don’t drink, of if so such bad wine you can’t handle over a small glass.
For the record, I don’t drink but maybe once a week, in fact not all week-=-and when I do go to the American Legion Hall here, Joy drives me home. She is a teetotaler and they say never trust someone who does not drink. You can trust her though.
Yes, Joy has spent some bucks on FOIA, and I too have footed a lot of the running and other expense related to this. But neither of us expect to be repaid since this type work is better than giving to a church or other welfare organization. It will have some little effect on saving future lives of the wild land fire fighter–that is enough return.
I am glad to see Gary back –life without honest input from people gets boring–we need those that are not afraid of the truth. We have seen too much of the cowardice in this journey of seeking out the truth. Even the movie makers became afraid to touch the truth and I see they espoused Donut to the fullest–goes along with their theme. I wonder if they ever got any truth out of him at the parties they had with him. But then I understand film making–lots of make belief and make up–Blue Ridge got shorted, called Blue River now. I hope Frisby gets a big part, but I don’t think he was invited to any of the parties.
Fun and games, what we have seen up to now about the Yarnell disaster. No one willing to admit to shame or how fucked up they managed the fire and what might be changed of the real reasons 19 young wild land fire fighters are dead. The truth is mostly here and hear, hear–Investigative Media takes pride in the truth–no games–all serious people with top credentials and stern evidence to back their evaluations of the situationl
I better get back to finishing my chicken coop. Two local inbred Californians turned me in on loose chickens. I have two, but you are allowed four. The red and white ones are both good layers, I just ate a fresh egg from Red that she laid yesterday. Boy are those home grown eggs so much better than the runny white eggs of cookie cutterville. The county allows four chickens, so I am safe and the lady from the county authority let me slide on two–its the law. My hens are pets, one in the house now–Joy is training my new dog to not attack Red–Red is such a pet that she bothers you by hanging around while you work–she wants her coop made and has sense enough to know it even with her bead brain–something the California couple have in common with her.
Keep up the good work, the rewards are good for the soul.
Sonny-TEX-Charlie Tex the real name, but not a Texan, Sonny a nickname from child hood and Charlie because Sonny’s name would not post so had to invent a new name and email to be able to post. So I am not disguising here but then I doubt in this day and age that one can.
I have a question relating to air attack on the Yarnell Hill fire:
Did saving private and commercial landholdings for timber play into air attack’s decision to remain in the Peeple’s Valley area dropping retardant for 40 extra minutes on June 30,2013 when they had been directed to fly to Yarnell ?
so you were reading posts from months ago on IM probably Spring time and the info you stated above and question came about due to that…man, the shadows must be smiling as HUGE as me…especially when Diane Lomas not even connected as eyewitness where we watched it “live” and we know MANY homeowners captured those aerial folks in the skies…THE SKIES ARE TALKING…thank you Lord…
God is Good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl06RN5zRxk
“jumping for joy”…YES!
I have been ill all week and I just went about the room dancing to the man upstairs that WHO has the power- it ain’t no powers to be—
YES!
CHARLIES LISTENING and I DO NOT MEAN Sonny/Tex–
If you are…here is a person who is innocently just like the rest of us posting questions but she seem to narrow in a very IMPORTANT detail that I DO INDEED hope Gary/Bob/WWTKTT/Woodsman/John Dougherty/etc MAKE THE TIME to meet this shadow and sure wish you get the true answer versus the public documented version-
any quick link for THIS chapter to all aerial in the skies 6-30-13 10am-1pm—deeply appreciate it if we can get those logs here…I will get my eyewitness aerial pics fresh here…
wwtktt, nothing in public records will with purity answer Diane’s question the way IT SHOULD be answered until the missing elements SPEAK UP-
no wonder I NEVER GOT no matter how documented and $85+ later I sent a USPS trackable FOIAs to all aerial involved in fires—NEVER even got any acknowledgement same for Peeples Valley FOIA…If someone does not acknowledge you and I have the PROOF than what?
i am really trying to save all photos of interest to one link and something keeps “x”ing me to first photo in file when I click to save one…???
also I want this question answered- in all my interviews I learned it is uncommon for a fire agency to put a pumpkin on a private property so why was it on the Helms as reported to us?
the one thing I won’t give up is GIVING UP-
https://www.flickr.com/gp/146751170@N03/46DM28
tried to put some fire pics in this file minus other pics but only the ones I have questions about for the most part— or need assistance on log records.
whoah!
were you just going to skim pass my comment? go grab a cup of coffee…k..I have to share how I “feel” today than back to sleep-
okay, I am getting around today whereas I WAS NOT in recent times…
Someone wrote about someone on this blog how some “bleed green” but in recent comments I am going to present something since you are present and back big “G”-
I at first thought it meant forestry cultural but the more time passes…I think Woodsman is right on…
“CHEERLEADER INTERRUPTION”…***go Woodsman!****
$$$MONEY MONEY MONEY $$$
Interesting… so-o-o-o… this is “how it goes down” ???
TEAM-BLEED-GREEN !!!
The “answer to everything” comes down to MORE GREEN… “money”…
and, when you begin to climb down a totally, DIFFERENT TYPE OF HOLE THAN SUCH AS GARY SEEMED TO INITIALLY SHY AWAY FROM… “that” HOLE IS VERY MUCH BIGGER and requires that one more completely understand The Creation-of-Money (where it comes from)(whisper to kids of the world: it really does not grow on trees unless you are in the firefighting world- burn trees equals $$$)… MONEY IS DEBT… “impure and not so simple”…
Thus, since GARY only seems to be paternalistically “talking down” to some average-on-any-given-recent-day number (ca.45) of IM–YHF readers-and-contributors… the “social guilt complex” he’s, so suddenly, attempting to “push” is similar in nature (but, no where near the HUGENESS of the “supplemented” budget bonus, passed last year to almost DOUBLE the “then latest record breaking increase” of that current year’s funding (see, “Wildfire Reader” for background on annual and decadal budgets, in general… unfortunately, the book was printed in 2007… so, one must revert to MORE independent research to catch up to WOODSMAN’s contention…(cheerleader interruption number 2: GO WOODSMAN) that it has since become Nothing-but-BigBiz-as-Usual (AGAIN, “CRICKETS-CHEESE-CRACKERS” from the forum’s “BLEED-GREENERS”) ???
I wish I had the RIGHT trust-able resources because I know this can be blown away the way they are fighting fires if I just had the RIGHT folks to TRUST…I have all the pieces just have to have the right master mind to ensure it is done right..I am so dead serious…you sit here where I am and know what I do…I doubt even many would of caught on to it…but what I have said can be “proved”- sigh of relief…
BIGGER AND BIGGER FIRES >>> PRINT MORE MONEY says GARY ??? More… MUCH MORE… Seems like, the ONLY hope for “objective” analysis WITHIN the “retired” system is going to have to come from someone current as I discussed in private to one of you…
Well-l-l-l… just finished reading thru GARY’s BIA comments… that’s all well and good and true (to a very large extent)… HOWEVER… none of what Gary wrote might interfere with him continuing to receive HIS pension ENTITLEMENT if he became the true investigator to fires that have happened- I think the blog is just a passing time hobby for some but not me….I am too deep into it; and that means in debt too…foias can be costly…especially for the folks in the shadows…some are like I am glad I have this site to quote folks for whatever reason because it is a public place but in reality how many eat, drink, breathe trying to ensure the changes to fighting fires and getting these crews what they deserve—
Big “G”- say this was a current world WITHOUT MEANS to electricity or gasoline and that COULD happen at any moment- and you had no means even with your wife working and funding your habits— to be a “jeepers creepers” amongst the dunes and beaches-and we had no financial backing and we had to hunt the resources out—this means those who use to make millions and billions in firefighting industry; no longer—now, we have a lightning strike and it beds down in our back yards of state or blm…no planes or copters or man on the line that can cause a fire to grow bigger like (Willis said—“fires are getting bigger and more extreme” (https://vimeo.com/82920041)
and they blame weather but how much of that was man made too?)…do you believe without electric/gas/resources that the local fire dept would JUST BURN on the properties without permission like they are doing now??? if they knew it could take the town down? and they have no way to curve it— or put it out and no resources…”doubtful” but they do now because it means $$$$…bonuses…trips…accolades…trophies…awards…also remember if no electricity and gasoline than you are like a 3rd world country set into survival mode- do you really think I am going to allow in my space any person where it takes a risk of theft of my livelihood of food water and shelter…”cheese and cracker” NO! why do you think I became the desert walker who wanted to PIONEER all elevations in Arizona…Texas is a smarter way with water not too far down to dig vs Arizona but I am a native….and so I won’t leave…my heart hurts by some running the shows here in Arizona but my heart will always be
A R I Z O N A. Just will- I do not accept some running the shows behaviors as they listen to someone above them for a piece of the green…I am not programmable and I am ME and I will seek out the truths and I have done it properly and going to the front door with foias seems senseless at times but I did and MY NAME is tied to them as well as journalist John Dougherty—that is SAD that out of MILLIONS of people just a select few really give a shit and are here in full name or not or in the shadows…Kudos to those who put their full name to it…I am proud to be one of those select few because I know it is the right thing to do versus just giving a shit about my own life and do what I want to do…I want us all to thrive and survive…
Oh and if there is no electric and gasoline then there -MOST-IMPORTANTLY…the monthly PENSION checks STOP… ALL manner of essentials and nonsense will NO longer be available on store shelves of broken-windowed retail and wholesale outlets, anyway…
therefore, the “argument” about HOW MUCH and WHO to “pay” to PUT-THE-DAMN-FIRES-OUT will “then” be wholly immaterial…the ONLY “benefit” to be derived… is that the damn “underpaid- hotshots will be MOST important at that point….BUT IN REALITY SHOULD BE NOW THAT THE HOTSHOTS MATTER—to me, THEIR LIVES MATTER! the 19 and all fallen and civilians engulfed by the gates of hell fires—
Sorry for my language before saying it: “F” off you folks who think you are “magical” in your orchestrations and YOU know who YOU are—some may not get it but I do—
YOU ARE THE MONSTERS! far worse than the serial killer I had to know to my life early on…that person was not right but you all are down right EVIL.
I want HOTSHOTS to be AT the FOREFRONT and NOT in some dang Hollywood flick glorifying for a moment—I mean “get “f”in’ real- these men and women wielding shovels and Pulaskis and, actually, PUTTING THE FIRE OUT are WAY OVERDUE for better equipment & raises and benefits, which possibly are provided to “the burners” as BONUSES for “jobs well done”—they deserve the bucks…in some of these wildfires- the inept command killed an entire team, right off the bat, due in great part>>> to run a really big fire AND scare the shit out of the locals and countrywide populations, alike, one needs TOP-LEVEL-COMMANDS—are there any out there????
…Back to the crux of the matter….let me say this: Nobody, even, begins to dissect these fires properly- NONE…it’s grievingly sad and unacceptable-
and the court case is 9-21-16 11am and YARNELL LIVES MATTER and you saw the original list on lawsuit—go through it TODAY and LOOK at the deaths or very ill even on that list…
So the people should focus that if we do not have electric/gas and it may happen one day than NOTHING-ABSOLUTELY-NOTHING-WORKS-LIKE-IT-ONCE-DID and that includes, WHO&HOW to PUT OUT FIRES… THEN… WITHOUT GETTING PAID ???
a fresh start is needed in HOW they fight fires
and it should be with the thought of all these unnecessary resources being used to give some area a huge wallet and taking more and more away from us the taxpayer (especially using up our resources recklessly and we pay for it- gotta love America) and we are to just sit here…do our cardio and exercises…walk…no talk…work and “enjoy” life while they give us new holes in our bodies…and if you have a VOICE maybe even a bullet hole…as it happen to Rancher LaVoy Finicum ( http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/22413-oregon-standoff-rancher-lavoy-finicum-shot-dead-by-police )…but we have what plus-minus forty hits to IM daily OUT OF 320 million Amercians…WAKE UP…seriously…
I am letting the “crickets” out-to-play, again… you might consider taking a page from “others” (Gary-RTS-WTKTT-Bob-etal) and “bring cheerleader’s fav. Woodsman comment back up and out-of-the-weeds” ??? April 20, 2016 at 3:11am… BIG-BUCKS (as in… “looking back on old comments, I don’t feel that this subject matter, once brought up for discussion and totally ignored, should necessarily have been left by the wayside and, now, that Gary has brought up the subject of MONEY-CA-CHING” …what are everyone’s thoughts in this regard” ??? ALSO, re-visit the Woodsman comment of March 23, 2016 at 12:04pm (referring back to a comment made by SONNY)… “Did a firing operation contribute to entrapment of the crew?” AND March 28, 2016 at 4:56pm (re: “mystery man”) AND then, there was this doozy (directed at me) on March 28, 2016 at 6:06pm… “the missing elements, as you call them, aren’t coming”
to close, I beg to differ I know and have hope in His time the missing elements will SPEAK UP! I wish sooner than later—
also remember-
now that I went through this tragedy and I was an eyewitness to 2 fires I need to give what I can to the YOUNG patriots and I want to know what is it I just went through and how can I move forward and give the young…because like it or not IT IS ALL ABOUT THE YOUNG…report the truth of what happens…not what the system wants us to believe and all the unjust people placed in jail or unjustly in the court system or dead now…
it is important for us all to delve into what truth is…
these FIRES need a FACE…and age does not matter
people want to underestimate—
don’t…
In His time…it will just be…
and typo- 40+- visits per hour not daily even though it is probably the same folks–
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ce/6d/39/ce6d39520f5bff5d67e884e4ae2cd205.jpg
did I write all that? some was indeed copy/pastes from the shadows because I thought it was “interesting” enough to be here when I awoke…
man I awoke groggy…visiting my BFF “Juniper” and I am really groggy today so that was an earful….
I want to make it so clear I am a complex simple gal- 🙂
and I never asked to be an eyewitness that 6-30-13; I was simply on my third day..third attempt to get a few simple pics of the fire to see which way it was headed; Peeples, Yarnell, Congress…and on the last fire I had no idea until I got the call from neighbor Stephanie…and I quickly assessed it…
I do have HOPE in a hopeless situation…
http://img.printfection.com/14/413348/tTy4M.jpg
Cheerleader,
Thanks for the shout out.
I said that to you out of frustration (I was walking away from this forum & then I changed my mind) because I know how the evil bastards of the world work (I’m a constant cynic.) I’m talking about when I told you that the missing elements aren’t coming. I think they have been shut down and/or intimidated into taking what they know to the grave. I can only imagine how some have been manipulated by the powers that be to ensure they shut the hell up! The power structure is determined to keep the blame on the little guy and continue their prosperity at the top at all costs.
“ALSO, re-visit the Woodsman comment of March 23, 2016 at 12:04pm (referring back to a comment made by SONNY)… “Did a firing operation contribute to entrapment of the crew?””
I fucking knew it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I M U T H E R F U C K I N G K N E W I T!!!! That exact same scenario has happened before and it’s too easy to do if personnel are not communicating properly as to where they are and what the fuck they are doing. Add in “Fake it til you Make it, assholes, attempting to be in charge of the fire (battalion chiefs) and the likelihood of this actually killing firefighters goes way up. I am not happy that I was right, it just means that I have something of a working brain left from my years in government service/indoctrination. (although, I will admit, I’m un-brain-washable)
Big Ag, Big Banking, Big Insurance, Big Fire……………$$$$$$ Why would the state take so much land for a memorial park? Is there money there too?
Woodsman
REPLY TO: Big Ag, Big Banking, Big Insurance, Big Fire……………$$$$$$ Why would the state take so much land for a memorial park? Is there money there too?
JOYS REPLY: many reasons why but it appears so “generous” to the people who faced a loss coming from State that they were given an area to memorialize…but the magnitude of the real story is crazy overwhelming…I doubt the loved ones even know…I really do wish I can just state it…in due time…ducks not in order…right Muzzy 🙂
back to sleep…speaking of sleep:
https://img0.etsystatic.com/029/0/9581404/il_570xN.611475848_tjq0.jpg
Joy,
My batting average hasn’t been this good in years! Thank you.
Woodsman
I just awoke again—my best friend lately is her…even named the throne… Juniper…
http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-young-woman-vomiting-into-the-toilet-bowl-in-the-early-stages-of-pregnancy-or-after-a-night-of-306461963.jpg
throws me out of this world….
I spoke to a loved one of Delores Dubaskas…her anniversary just passed on the 8th…Sep. 8, 2014…she would of been 87…one of the casualties of the YHF…I was told Knapp was sending letters to let people know about the case update but MORE folks feedback are stating they learned of hearing from me not Knapp
Is Knapp taking a nap?
I know I was and probably big “G” is about now…and my mom is…
but people might see the importance one day of being PRESENT.
I would like to help you Joy…but I can’t even understand what you need help with, much less how I could help you with it.
Big “G”…take a nap…I told you when the time arrives you will just be a part of the journey…no need to say how or what the needs are…in due time they will be met…but you want to go caving? Sonny and I can show you some very interesting caving details…take a break from jeeping? I will get better and we can go caving up by you…k.
OK…I am going to go lay down for a little nap. But don’t let any of that fool you…I am like a coiled steel spring, ready to leap into action at any time!
Caving? Deep dark hole in the ground filled with bats and bat guano, spiders and spider webs, rodents and rodent droppings, hantavirus, moisture and slime or dry powdery dust and other creepy, crawling things? It sounds very tempting…I will get back to you on that one.
Of course the last time I went into a cave, it was on public land and it was to investigate how a young college student had fallen to his death. His body was a mess when it finally came out of that hole.
Part I
OK…here is my take on the BIA and how it relates to what happened to the Beartown crew and the big picture overall. I even have a solution to offer you. YOU people need to start paying attention to who is fighting your wildfires and you need to start paying more money to have those wildfires fought.
And since both of those ideas are non-starters, I am wasting my time (luckily I have a lot of time to waste) writing this treatise and you are wasting your time reading it because you don’t really care enough to do anything about the situation to make it better. And we are going to have to get down in the weeds on this one, so hitch up your panties because we are going for a ride. You may also consider this a chapter in the book I might finish some day.
Over the past three years you have seen this alphabet soup list of federal agencies who have wildland firefighting responsibilities, the USFS, BLM, NPS, BIA and sometimes, even the USFWS thrown in for good measure. There is however, one really big anomaly in that list…and it’s the BIA. That’s because all of the other agencies manage federal land, natural resources and in the case of the USF&WS…wildlife, whereas the BIA primarily manages the people who live on the land.
And I use the term manage loosely, of course Native Americans, including those people who live on tribal lands really manage themselves with the help of the BIA…this is the United States of America and the people in question are U.S. citizens after all. That’s a really a huge difference in responsibilities that leads to lots of complications for the BIA that none of the other federal land management agencies have to deal with.
One of the complications the BIA deals with on a daily basis is the people they are responsible for managing are also citizens of their very own sovereign nations by treaty with the U.S. Government. And there are hundreds of those sovereign nations the BIA has to work with. Hundreds of sovereign nations within the borders of the U.S. Think about that for a minute…that’s complicated. And the BIA has to manage those sovereign nations and the people who live in them as best they can…and frankly, as best they can is not very good much of the time. Are you surprised? You shouldn’t be.
Once upon a time in America, a long, long time ago the federal government created a federal agency called the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) to take the lead in managing all of the Native Americans the previous federal agency who had the lead in managing that population didn’t kill off in the deliberate attempted genocide of an entire race of people. And of course that was the U.S. War Department during the Indian Wars.
Take General Kit Carson for example. I picked him because we actually have a National Forest named after him. The Kit Carson home was in Taos, New Mexico, and that is where he is buried. The Carson National Forest was named after a murderous, genocidal killer of Native American men, women and children…combatants and non-combatants alike. And that mass murderer has been lionized in our American pop culture as a hero of the American West…go figure?
General Carson makes for a good segue into the second man I want to mention and that is President Andrew Jackson…the man on our twenty dollar bill. General Carson’s crimes against humanity pale in comparison to those committed by our seventh President of the United States. Historians don’t even know how many thousands of Native Americans he killed by ordering all of the tribes who were living under previous peace treaties in the southeast U.S. to embark on the Trail of Tears by using military force without any government support or the necessary resources for such an arduous journey.
The U.S. hung both Japanese (the Bataan Death March comes to mind, a large number of New Mexico National Guardsmen from Santa Fe died on that one) and German war criminals after WWII for crimes against humanity who committed far less horrific war crimes than both of these men did. And yet…we continue to honor them? Our collective guilt and shame as a nation for our role in slavery in this country is second only to our historical treatment of our Native American population.
Part II
But forgive…I digress once again. Anyway…it was during this era the BIA that was run by all white people was created. I think the BIA was and in many cases still is the worst government agency that has ever been created…by a lot. The agency has been making up ground ever since and is now run entirely by Native Americans, but about the best thing I can say about them today is they don’t do nearly as bad of a job as all of the white people who came before them did…by a lot.
The white people who came before those who run the agency now practiced systemic incompetence, gross mismanagement and official malfeasance on a grand scale exceeded in scope only by the Nazis during the Holocaust, or the Turkish government’s genocide against the Armenian people. Yeah…I think it was that bad most of the time.
So…you need to understand at least some of the history of the BIA to understand the past and current relationship the agency has with those whom they serve. The relationship between the BIA and the Native American people has always been, and still is in many instances, very adversarial…to say the least. And that hasn’t automatically changed just because the BIA is now run by Native Americans.
Fast forward to today and throw into the mix something that WTKTT has already mentioned…Native American self-determination backed up by a whole bunch of relatively new federal laws and you have a really complicated relationship in addition to a historically very adversarial one. The bottom line to me is that the BIA is responsible for managing (and remember, I am using that term loosely) Native American people when those people want the BIA to manage them and its hands off when the Indian people don’t want them do.
So…I think the BIA is on a pretty weak foundation even on a good day and operating at a distinct disadvantage when push comes to shove in dealing with the tribes who own land that are in fact, sovereign nations in their own right. I think dealing with most Indian tribes in most situations is kind of like the old game of Hot Potato. Except this potato is hot from radioactive material and so nobody wants to catch it for sure and if they do, they don’t want to hold it for very long.
I think this arrangement creates an environment and a power vacuum where people like Doreen Baker can amass a tremendous amount of power and influence, at least at the local level, where she can get away with anything…maybe even murder or at least manslaughter. And that includes both creating and managing a situation where you have rolling party crew carriers filled with a haze of marijuana smoke, other drugs, which I am sure included alcohol and marginally acceptable wildland firefighters looking for a place to crash.
And I am going to go out on a limb here and guess the two crewmen who were killed weren’t wearing seat belts. And whose fault was that besides theirs? I think it was Doreen Baker’s and the other supervisors who were present that day…that’s who. I am going to take another wild guess here and say that I bet Doreen Baker ran a pretty loose crew in general most, if not all of the time..
In other words…the Beartown wildland firefighting crew was a train wreck looking for a place to happen and they found it in Minnesota on their way to the Box Canyon Fire. But don’t expect the BIA to respond to this crisis the same way the BLM did to the vehicle crash with fatalities involving BLM fire fighters that has been previously mentioned. The BIA simply isn’t strong enough to respond like the BLM did. And the BLM is a historically weak and grossly mismanaged agency.
Part III
So…how does this relate to the Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew? I’m glad you asked. If Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed would have survived, would there be any difference between them and Doreen Baker? Is there any real difference between Doreen Baker and Darrell Willis? I don’t think so.
And why are YOU people responsible as well? How did we get marginally acceptable wildland firefighters trying to drive 1600 miles to a fire? Don’t fucking airplanes fly to Beartown, U.S.A. for God’s sake? Or don’t airplanes at least fly to a small or midsize city reasonably close Beartown?
I also want to know who at NIFC was responsible for making that decision to have that crew drive to a fire 1600 miles away! Even if they didn’t know they would be driving to the fire in marijuana smoke filled party crew carriers careening and rollicking down the freeway at 90 miles per hour with a coked up driver at the wheel who had been drinking?
And once that person is identified, I think they and their supervisor should be sent back to the NIFC fire cache to sharpen hand tools. It’s not like they were in engines that would be needed on the fire line. The Beartown crew was riding in crew carriers that are traditionally replaced by rental vans or National Guard five ton trucks to transport crews on the fire itself.
I guarantee you that if you look very deep on this case; you will find a lot of blame to go around to a lot of people. Which is just one more reason they won’t look very deep, hang the dumb ass firefighter out to dry and call it good?
Well…let’s back up for a minute. Why don’t you make a visit to the poorest inner city section of a large American metropolis? In those neighborhoods you will witness abject, overwhelming, oppressive, stifling, ever present, all consuming poverty, hopelessness and despair.
And then you should go visit many Native American reservations and you will see how bad things can really get. And while you are there, please keep in mind that a higher percentage of Native Americans serve in our armed forces than any other ethnic group and the circumstances surrounding the death of Ira Hayes, who was from Arizonaistan.
YOU people force wildland firefighting managers to recruit your firefighters at the lowest levels from the bottle of the barrel of our society (don’t get snippy on me, that’s where I came from) from those populations who are otherwise unemployable, or at least can’t find jobs in their area and most of those people are unable or unwilling to relocate.
WF managers hire your wildland firefighters from the deepest pockets of unemployment and poverty in America, the deep south, Indian reservations, small communities in northern New Mexico, the hollows of Appalachia, the Snake River Valley, western colleges and universities (except for those where the elite go, like Stanford), rural small town America, anywhere there are limited opportunities (which is how I got my start) and finally…penal institutions, penal institutions and more penal institutions, WTF…penal institutions? I always used to love that aspect of the job when I was on the fire line. The cons and I were doing basically the same work, although I got paid more…so that made me feel better about myself?
WF managers go wherever they can find the most desperate people who are willing to do your most dangerous and miserable job (wildland firefighting) for the least benefits you cheap fuckers can offer. Wildland firefighting is not the single most dangerous job, or the single most miserable job, or the single job with the fewest benefits there is in the country. There are jobs in all three categories that are worse than wildland firefighting.
Wildland firefighting is however, arguably the most dangerous and the most miserable job with the fewest benefits there is all rolled into one. Just look at the intersection of the worst job with the least benefits imaginable in this country today and I bet you will find wildland firefighters. At least wildland firefighting is the worst job with the fewest benefits at the lowest levels of the profession, if I can call it a profession at its lowest levels.
In other words, make a Venn diagram using three circles. In one circle write everything miserable about a job. In the second circle, write everything dangerous about a job. And in the third circle, write down all of the benefits that a job doesn’t offer. And I am pretty sure where all three of those circles overlap, will be the area that represents wildland firefighting in this country today. And YOU people are so fucking stupid and ill informed, you don’t even know you are responsible for this mess…YOU people don’t want to know.
Do you really know why WF managers don’t introduce a strong drug testing regimen for all wildland firefighters, especially if they include the abuse of ethanol, which is informally called alcohol? Who the fuck do YOU people think they will have left to fight your wildfires for you if they do, YOU…LMFAO? And whatever you do…don’t look behind the curtain, I promise you won’t like what you see, but you already know that don’t you? Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil; you want to be kept in the dark. What you don’t know about you can’t be responsible for…right?
Do you want to know what I have come to realize and fully understand after participating for more than three years on this blog? Of course you do. Do you really want to know who is really responsible for the horrific deaths of the crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire and so many other wildfires? Do you want the truth? You can’t handle the truth. YOU people are responsible. I am responsible. We are ALL responsible. How about all of us work together to change the system and make it at least a little bit better? Yeah…I get it, I really do. That idea is another non-starter. YOU people care…but you don’t care that much…right?
You truly drove the NAIL HOME.
I am still trying to wrap my head around a dispatch allowing a crew to drive its self 1600 Miles. WTF??????
The only thing you missed was Fire Funding.
Its coming out of the day to day budget of the BLM and FS draining the swamp until you are up to your ass in Alligators.
Bob,
Mileage reimbursement. You’re welcome.
Woodsman
They also get to charge the standard NWCG ‘Hourly Rates’ for Type 2 IA crews for every hour ( for every man ) that they are either ‘on the way there’ or ‘on the way home’.
Cha-Ching.
See the post below from that USDOI OIG Audit of BIA’s Wildland program(s).
It also found that there was actually no legal authority in any of the PL-638 contracts for the ‘Indian Nation’ resources to ever be dispatched ‘FAR from their own reservation(s)’.
The NWCG is just ‘dispatching’ them in this manner so they ( the Tribes and their programs ) can make the $$$$ MONEY $$$$.
MapQuest says that ( if you are observing legal speed-limits, of course ) it takes a little more than 25 hours to drive from Baraga, Michigan ( home base for the “Beartown Firefighters” ) to Oakley, Idaho… where the ‘Box Canyon Fire’ ICP was located.
So that’s at least 50 ‘on the clock’ ( chargable to taxpayers ) hours for each and every man.
The “Beartown Fireighters” also ‘charge out’ that higher ‘Type 2 IA’ hourly rate instead of the lower rate for just ‘Type 2’ ground scrapers.
So you are ‘dispatching’ an ‘Initial Attack’ Crew to a fire that will have to travel over 1600 miles… and take more than a full day of actual driving ( 25 hours with no stops ) just to GET there?
The ‘Box Canyon Fire’ was a few weeks old even before this dispatch. How could it possibly still have needed ‘Initial Attack’ resources?
The 2016 ‘Box Canyon Fire’ actually started way back on July 28, 2016.
So on the day this BIA co-sponsored and co-managed “Beartown” Type 2 Initial Attack (IA) was just 350 miles into their 1600 mile journey to even GET to Oakley, Idaho ( on August 27, 2016 )… the ‘Box Canyon Fire’ was already a full MONTH old.
Caveat: The way the NWCG is actually ‘defining’ the difference(s) between a regular Type 2 crew and the higher-rate Type 2 IA crew status… if you want to be SURE you simply get a ‘handcrew’ that is ‘certified’ to broken into at least TWO ‘squads’, each with its own qualified ( and certified ) leadership… then you have to ‘order up’ a crew with the ‘Type 2 IA’ certification versus the plain-vanilla ‘Type 2’ status.
The Box Canyon Fire is in Utah not Idaho.
Oakley is like 80 miles from the Fire although Oakley is the site of a fire camp for a totally different Fire The Cherry Fire on the Albion division of the Sawtooth NF.
I think the Box Canyon Fire reignited a couple of weeks ago from a contained fire.
Will do some more research on that.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
September 12, 2016 at 3:41 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Box Canyon Fire is in Utah not Idaho.
You are absolutely right. Sorry. Total brain fart on my part and thanks for correcting me.
Inciweb page for the 2016 ‘Box Canyon Fire’, which is listed as ‘human cause’ and started on July 28, 2016…
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4907/
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Oakley is like 80 miles from the Fire
>> although Oakley is the site of a
>> fire camp for a totally different Fire
>> The Cherry Fire on the Albion division
>> of the Sawtooth NF.
Inciweb says the ‘Incident Command Post’ for the ‘Box Canyon Fire’ is located the ‘Oakley Town Hall’.
If that is the case… then ‘Oakley’ would have been the actual ‘driving destination’ for the “Beartown” crew so they could ‘check-in’ to the ‘Box Canyon Fire’.
The Box Canyon Fire is way closer to a lot of other places for a fire camp in North Utah.
Oakley is a town of around 200 people not much there. and a long way from the Box Canyon Fire.
Have to look at the Map may be another Oakley in Utah.
Further research.
Yes there is a town of Oakley on Highway 32 between Salt lake city and the fire on the Ashley NF in Utah.
That may explain the confusion.
The Box Canyon fire is definitely in Utah.
Oakley Idaho would be closer to 200 miles from this fire. Oakley Utah is a small town as well near the Ashley NF and about 50 miles from Salt Lake.
The Mormons tended to name many places after there Brothers this could be one of them
In Idaho and Utah.
Any way I hope that clears the confusion.
It would have seemed simple to have flown the crew to Salt Lake and bussed to the fire.
If they were dispatched from a BIA dispatch that may have caused the travel. NIFC orders to different Regions then the Region calls the dispatch offices in the regions. IE. BIA, BLM, FS. They set up the travel BIA to Region Disp. and notify NIFC.
It looks more like they were ordered as a Type 2 Crew and Not a IA crew. Though they were listed as that. As Crew availability gets stretched crews are ordered from further away to fill orders.
Driving that far is still highly questionable to any Dispatch supervisor.
I am sure on this on that Gary would agree.
The crew dose not have the decision to Drive the Dispatch dose in conjunction with The Regional Dispatch.
How ever they travel is still charged to the Fire.
Bob,
What part of ‘buy a $7,000 used crew carrier, pay for it in the first year via mileage reimbursements from Big Daddy Federal Gummint, & MAKE $$ each season after that’ don’t you comprehend? They’re not going to fly them anywhere and charter a bus because that’s not a money-making strategy. (not to mention the fact that it’s harder to ‘do what you want concerning self-medications’, etc, etc – wink, wink)
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 12, 2016 at 7:45 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I am still trying to wrap my head around a dispatch allowing
>> a crew to drive its self 1600 Miles. WTF??????
There is a ‘section’ in that USDOI OIG 2011 AUDIT of the BIA’s “Wildland Fire’ program(s) that directly addresses this… and relates DIRECTLY to the recent “Beartown Firefighters” incident ( and the resulting fatalities ).
Unless there is a direct ( and declared ) threat to Indian Lands… the NWCG and U.S. Forestry has no ( legal ) business even ‘contracting’ with or dispatching any ‘fire suppression’ entitities operating off of ‘Sovereign Nation’ status ‘Indian Reservations’.
And certainly ‘no business’ contracting with ones that have to drive 1600 fucking miles just to get to the fire and will then ‘charge back’ ALL of those travel expenses to U.S. taxpayers.
Here again is a link to that complete BIA Wildland Fire Operations 2011 AUDIT…
http://www.eenews.net/assets/2011/07/15/document_pm_01.pdf
NOTE: That the ‘conclusions’ reached by the U.S. Department of the Interior ( DOI ) Office of Inspector General ( OIG ), and the suggested ‘remedies’ are all at least 5 years old… and even though DOI agreed with all the ‘problems’ found… there is no evidence that ANYTHING has been done to even begin to correct things… even now… in the year 2016.
PDF page 8 of that BIA AUDIT document…
—————————————————————-
BIA – Types of Agreements with Tribal Entities
BIA uses the three following types of wildland fire suppression tribal agreements:
– Self-determination contracts issued under the authority of the “Indian Self Determination and Education Assistance Act” (Public Law (P.L.) 93-638) (25 U.S.C. 450 et seq.);
– Cooperative agreements issued under the authority of P.L. 93-638; and
– Cooperative agreements not issued under the authority of P.L. 93-638.
Our review of tribal agreements from six regions revealed that BIA Headquarters has not provided sufficient guidance to the regions on use of ANY of those agreements.
Field personnel stated that BIA Headquarters guidance has been either lacking or inconsistent and cited conflicting guidance on whether or not to use P.L. 93-638 contracts for wildland fire suppression agreements.
As a result,each region, or, in some cases, each agency office that we reviewed either used different agreements or applied the agreements differently.
In the agreements reviewed, we found wide inter-and intra-regional variations in the content of wildland fire suppression tribal agreements. Much of this variation appeared to be due to each region designing its OWN agreements rather than to differences in circumstances.
Use of P.L. 93-638 for Fire Suppression Agreements
Although P.L. 93-638 allows use of cooperative agreements, BIA discourages such use in favor of P.L. 93–638 self-determination contracts.
The extent to which general P.L. 93–638 provisions apply to cooperative agreements is much less clear because NO STANDARD COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT EXISTS.
A model agreement for P.L. 93–638 self-determination contracts is specified at 25 U.S.C .4501.
Both BIA and the tribes are familiar with the model agreement, the meaning of which has been tested in court cases.
When applied strictly to fire suppression, however, the model agreement becomes problematic.
For example, the model agreement favored by BIA includes indirect costs. BIA policy, however, does not allow indirect costs for fire suppression. In another example, the model agreement states that payments are made quarterly or as specified by the tribal party, whereas wildland fires are reimbursed on a fire-by-fire basis.
In another problematic use of P.L. 93-638 contracts, we found instances in which tribal resources were sent off-reservation, FAR FROM TRIBAL LANDS to assist in fire suppression.
Programs authorized for P.L. 93-638 contracts are those for the benefit of Indians and related administrative functions ( 25 U.S.C 450f(a(1)(2008)).
Fighting fires off-reservation, on U.S. Forest Service land for example, does not appear to be a program for the benefit of Indians.
Rather, a TRIBE is the same as any other entity that provides services.
Consequently, such actions would seem ineligible for inclusion in a P.L. 93–638 contract, unless they are required to prevent the spread of fire to Indian land.
—————————————————————-
As I was watching coverage of 9/11 yesterday I thought about all the fire fighters ordered to enter the towers without much hope of a successful mission–in fact it probably seemed like a suicide mission but they went as they were ordered.
Comparisons could be drawn to the Yarnell Hill fire and Granite Mountain?
Diane,
I know that many of the WTC FFs were on duty and rushed to help, and many more came in in case they were needed, to the extent that the rest of the city was left vulnerable. So many were not ordered at all and were not even on duty.
Unlike Yarnell, they were not trying to save empty buildings, but to help people escape from the upper floors, where they thought their expertise would help.
Even with that, there was some discussion immediately after 9-11 about whether they did the right thing, since they took up space in the stairwell that should have been used by those escaping, and they didn’t really have a plan for what they were going to do at the crash area and how many people they would need. That sounds like Yarnell. Of course, the buildings falling was completely unexpected, as the building codes include the possibility of planes hitting, as has happened before, albeit never a commercial jet. What happened at Yarnell was written in the weather reports that morning.
Thanks for all of the input. This is a hot potato for me as well. One of the last things I want to be labeled as is a racist, so I didn’t come right out and say it until I tested the waters but here is what I really think.
The NWCG, NIFC, and the BIA are up to their necks in an Indian Welfare Program by another name.
Does our Native American population need more help and do they deserve more help from us? YES.
Is this the way to give that help? NO
And it really caught up with them this time, but don’t expect any changes. Like I tried to explain to you up above in so many words…the BIA is bullet proof. No one…not the President or any other elected official has the cojones to take on the BIA.
And nobody in the BIA has the cojones to take on the tribes. The tribes are running the show, which means people like Doreen Baker are in charge.
Just look at what President Obama did up at the Standing Rock protest, he folded at the last minute even after a Federal Judge ruled against the tribe.
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 12, 2016 at 11:49 am
>> Gay Olson said…
>>
>> Thanks for all of the input. This is a hot potato for me as
>> well. One of the last things I want to be labeled as is a
>> racist, so I didn’t come right out and say it until I tested
>> the waters but here is what I really think.
>>
>> The NWCG, NIFC, and the BIA are up to their necks
>> in an Indian Welfare Program by another name.
In TWO seperate ‘interviews’ spaced TWO years apart… ‘leaders’ of this BIA co-sponsored and co-managed “Beartown” Type 2 IA CREW told the media that they basically LOVE to ‘off the reservation’ and go out on these 14 day NWCG Dispatch assignments and that when they do… they try as much as they can to MAXIMIZE the HOURS and clock upwards of 200-300 billable ‘Crew Hours’ in those 14 days before they are ‘required’ ( according to NWCG Crew Standards ) to take 2 days off.
There is very little ’employment’ in the ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’, and most of the members of this “Beartown Firefighters” crew pretty much DEPEND on this ‘income’. It’s either that or try to get a job at one of the TWO ‘Casinos’… and the people who already work there have ‘locks’ on THOSE jobs.
The Daily Mining Gazette
Article Title: Beartown Firefighters tackle crisis nationwide
Published: July 15, 2016 – By Vanessa Dietz
http://www.mininggazette.com/page/content.detail/id/553467/Beartown-Firefighters-tackle-crisis-nationwide.html?nav=5098
———————————————————
BARAGA – Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’s Beartown Firefighters have been training and tackling fires across the country for decades.
“We’re back in town now,” said Beartown Firefighter Chairman George DeCota. “We just got back from Arizona.”
In addition to helping in Arizona this year, the unit was sent to two fires in Minnesota and one in Pennsylvania.
They typically work 200 to 300 hours in an average two-week detail for which they earn hazard and overtime pay.
Doreen Blaker, 20-year veteran Beartown firefighter and KBIC Tribal Council treasurer, is proud of the crew’s accomplishments, knowing full well how hard the job can be.
“As forces are needed, we are ready to go,” she said.
Beartown’s officially designated a Type 2 Initial Attack Crew, meaning it can break down into two squads that operate independently.
Blaker said they are alerted to fire control efforts around the country through the national Geographic Area Coordination Centers, ( GACC Dispatch ) of which Michigan is in the eastern area.
———————————————————
And here is another interview conducted TWO YEARS before the recent one up above where the same ‘200-300 hours in 14 days’ claim is made…
The Daily Mining Gazette
Article Title: Beartown Firefighters ready for action
Crew trains to fight forest fires anywhere in nation
Published: June 25, 2014 – By DAN ROBLEE
http://www.mininggazette.com/page/content.detail/id/535135/Beartown-Firefighters–ready-for-action.html?nav=5006
———————————————————-
L’ANSE – For now, the Beartown Firefighters are waiting and training. When the call comes, they’ll be on the bus within hours, ready to risk their lives facing wild fires anywhere in the nation with no more than chain saws and hand tools. They will hike several miles each day in sometimes 100-degree heat, carrying at least 65 pounds, and working 200 to 300 hours in an average two-week detail, usually while sleeping in tents.
There are currently about 50 to 60 people on the crew. About 90 percent are Keweenaw Bay Indian Community members, with a handful of non-Natives and Natives from other tribes, Beartown Chairman George DeCota said. There are about half a dozen women, including a veteran CREW BOSS, KBIC Tribal Council member and official Tribe Treasurer Doreen Blaker ).
Beartown’s is officially designated a Type 2 Initial Attack Crew, meaning it’s capable of breaking down into two squads that operate independently, though Beartown firefighter Charlie Gauthier said they avoid that as much as possible.
Usually, DeCota said, they work in national forests, though they’ve been called out for other situations, and even other types of disasters, such as an ice storm and a hurricane.
When there’s work, the money can be good, DeCota said, with hazard pay and overtime.
———————————————————-
From ‘interview’ 1… July 15, 2016
“They typically work 200 to 300 hours in an average two-week detail for which they earn hazard and overtime pay.”
From ‘interview’ 2… TWO years earlier… on June 25, 2014…
“( Usually ) working 200 to 300 hours in an average two-week detail”
NOTE: It is, of course, NOT POSSIBLE to pull ‘300 work hours’ in a two-week period… and even 250 hours is impossible if observing the required ‘2 to 1’ work/rest ratio.
Total hours in one week = 168 ( 24 x 7 )
Total hours in two weeks = 336
In order for any CREW to ‘clock’ 300 billable hours in 14 days means the CREW would have to work 21.42 hours per day, with only 2.58 hours of sleep between shifts.
In order for any CREW to ‘clock’ 250 billable hours in 14 days means the CREW would have to work 17.85 hours per day, with only 6.15 hours of sleep between shifts.
In order for any CREW to ‘clock’ 224 billable hours in 14 days means the CREW would have to work 16.00 hours per day, with 8.00 hours of sleep between shifts.
In order for any CREW to ‘clock’ 200 billable hours in 14 days means the CREW would have to work 14.28 hours per day, with 9.72 hours of sleep between shifts.
So the MAXIMUM number of ‘total hours’ a CREW could ‘rack up’ in a 14 day period… and still stay ‘exactly’ within the legal 2:1 work rest ratio would be 224 hours ( 16 hours per day with 8 hours rest in-between shifts ).
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And nobody in the BIA has the cojones to take on the
>> tribes. The tribes are running the show, which means
>> people like Doreen Baker are in charge.
On this ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe’ reservation… Doreen Blaker is basically the equivalent of Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis and Granite Mountain Hotshot Superintendent Eric Marsh all rolled into one ( and add a special place like actually a voting member of the Council that controls all the money ).
Doreen Blaker STARTED this ‘outfit’ ( just like Eric Marsh did in Prescott )… and she also had/has the same ongoing responsibility to not only MANAGE the Crew ( and make sure it meets all NWCG standards )… but also to make sure the organization MAKES MONEY and ‘supports’ itself… just like Eric Marsh and Darrell Willis had to do with that ‘City Based’ Granite Mountain operation.
That is WHY Darrell Willis and Eric Marsh ‘jumped through hoops’ in 2013 and did everything they could to keep from having to drop Granite Mountain back to ‘Type 2’ status that season. It was so they could keep ‘billing’ at the HIGHER ‘Type 1’ crew rate and keep the organization at least ‘breaking even’.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> Just look at what President Obama did up at the
>> Standing Rock protest, he folded at the last minute
>> even after a Federal Judge ruled against the tribe.
This ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe’ has its own messy STANDOFF ‘History’.
Just Google the words “Keweenaw” and “Standoff” and you will see TONS of articles about it.
It’s just a ‘typical’ ( often repeated ) story about what happens when the CASINOS show up… and contains all the expected “absolute power corrupts absolutely” and “the rich get richer while the poor get poorer” stories that one would expect.
In a nutshell…
A piece-of-work named Fred Dakota was ‘Keweenaw Tribe’ Chairman for 21 years, from 1975 to around 1996.
He opened Michigan’s first legal ‘Indian Casino’ in his own GARAGE in 1984.
Throughout the 1980’s and on into the 1990’s… he single-handedly brought the Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe into the MULTI-CASINO business.. sometimes acting without STATE or FEDERAL approval to make it all happen.
When other members of the tribe became aware that Fred Dakota and his ‘supporters’ seemed to then be ( of course ) ‘skimming off the top’ of the CASINO profits and pocketing the money… a ‘movement’ arose to finally ‘oust’ Fred Dakota.
When Fred Dakota finally LOST a bid for re-election to the Keweenaw Bay Tribal Council in 1994… he ( while he was still the Council’s outgoing President ) just declared that election ‘null and void’ and then had the Council vote to strip the voting rights of specific groups in the tribe that were ‘opposing’ him.
Dakota then ( quickly ) held a ‘new election’ ( minus all the purged voters ), and he then ( of course ) retained total control of the council.
This resulted in the people who opposed him physically OCCUPYING the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’s Tribal Center.
That OCCUPATION went on for almost TWO YEARS.
Several attempts were made by Police to ‘oust’ the ‘occupiers’… but all of them failed.
Fred Dakota was eventually CONVICTED of multiple ‘racketeering’ charges, and taking bribes, and for tax evasion and only then did he finally lose control of the Keweenaw Bay Council.
The building that had been ‘occupied’ for those TWO YEARS was eventually bulldozed, and there is now a ‘new’ ‘Keweenaw Bay Community Center’ which houses the ‘new’ ( and accepted as legitimate ) Tribal Council.
THIS is the ‘environment’ and the “atmosphere” in which the “Beartown Firefighters” organization was created.
Again… just ‘Google’ the words ‘Keweenaw’ and ‘Standoff’ and you will see TONS of articles about this nasty ‘occupation’ that took place there not that long ago.
Here is just one of the articles publshed after another one of the many ( failed ) POLICE RAIDS trying to end the standoff…
The Lawrence-Journal World
Article Title: GAMBLING DISPUTE RESULTS IN STANDOFF
Published: June 4, 1996
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19960604&id=v5UyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GOcFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3529,2551267&hl=en
——————————————————————-
MICHIGAN, (AP) – Slashed tires, burned-out cars, tear gas and rocks. These are the unexpected payouts from Indian gambling that threaten to tear an Upper Peninsula tribe ( The Keweenaw Indian Tribe ) apart.
Last week, tribal police hurled tear gas canisters in a failed attempt to flush out a group who seized the Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe’s community headquarters building NINE MONTHS AGO.
PHOTO CAPTION: Tribal protesters move away from tear and pepper gas canisters thrown by police Wednesday during a failed attempt to flush out the group at the Keweenaw Bay Tribal Center.
Dissidents accuse leaders of the 2,400 member tribe of lining THEIR pockets at the expense of the rank and file, rigging elections to the 12-person tribal council and stripping the voting rights of anyone who challenges them.
At the center of the dispute is tribal Chairman Fred Dakota, 58. He has been chairman for 21 years and opened Michigan’s first Indian casino in his garage in 1984. Dakota has pushed aggressively to expand the tribe’s gambling enterprises, sometimes acting without state or federal approval.
The rebel faction ( that opposes Dakota ), calling itself ‘Fight For Justice’, claims the allegiance of about 300, although only a few hard-core activists occupy the tribal center.
‘Fight For Justice’ is most angry about the voting-rights dispute.
In the 1994 tribal election, Fred Dakota foes won ALL FOUR open council seats, and another dissident tied Dakota’s son, Bradley, for chief tribal judge. The council then nullified the election and purged more than 200 people from the voting rolls. It said they were ineligible under the tribal constitution.
Another election was then held ( minus those 200 ‘dissidents’ ) and Dakota and his supporters won easily.
‘Fight For Justice’ dissidents then physically ‘occupied’ the Tribe’s Community Center… and even this most recent attempt to oust them after NINE MONTHS of occupation has again failed.
———————————————————–
That OCCUPATION went on for TWO YEARS.
Fred Dakota was eventually convicted on multiple racketeering, bribe-taking and income tax evasion charges.
Fred Dakota is ‘out of prison’ now… and guess who just recently to RE-ELECTED to serve on the 2016 Keweenaw Bay Tribal Council… right along with ‘Beartown’ CREW BOSS Doreen Blaker and others?…
The very same ‘Fred Dakota’.
Well…that was a long walk around the block I took to get to where I thought we should be and once again…thanks for putting some meat on the bones I threw out. Or to put it another way, thanks for filling in my outline.
But yes…I love my Native American brothers and sisters but I grew to have complete contempt for the BIA and many of the tribal governments. They are run more like organized crime that governmental entities.
I usually just write it off that we are paying the overdue bill for the Sand Creek Massacre and so many other atrocities committed by my people…I guess they were my people? They were white and western or northern European?
The sins of my fathers so to speak? Payback is a bitch (non-gender specific).
The only problem is…I have also been witness to the abject, overwhelming, oppressive, stifling, ever present, all consuming poverty, hopelessness and despair that can make the inner city look like a nice place to live. That is hard to forget about and write-off.
I am not being hurt (except in a very general sense) by the corruption and incompetence of the BIA and so many tribal governments. Their own people are; shame on them.
Exactly, Andrew Jackson enlisted the Cherokee to wage war and atrocities against other tribes, then all he promised that tribe was forgotten. Heroes here with Kit Carson and Andrew Jackson same as the management that wrecklessly killed the 19 at Yarnell.
I forgot to include a major bit of house cleaning. As you may remember, RTS and I engaged in a lively back and forth about the genesis of the parable downstream about when a hotshot crew boss say’s it’s Easter, the crew starts looking for Easter Eggs?. Well I heard from the man who told me that parable…my old buddy and former hotshot squad boss. Here is what he said;
Just browsed IM. Let me clarify. When you told me it was Easter I’d find eggs. If you had told me to jump from a plane without a parachute, I’d have told you to find you’re own fucking eggs. You don’t need the 10 and 18 to know walking down a blind gully in front of a raged wild fire is a bad idea. A friend of mine was involved in the recovery. He’s never fought a wild fire in his life but is a highly skilled and decorated SAR veteran. The first thing he said to me afterwards was “I don’t know what they were doing there”
And I say, As far as I go, the Easter Egg parable in nothing more than that…a humorous parable. A parable in that it has a spiritual message. So,,,nobody should take it too seriously or get wrapped up around the axle about it..
Oh…and one more thing. I am working on my bit about the BIA etc.. I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I am enjoying writing it. It ties up a lot of loose ends for me. I will post it tonight after I finish writing and editing it.
That is all. Please carry on.
Whoops, wrong chapter.
Well…I made it back from my two week vacation down in the dunes…I think. That is to say I think I was gone for two weeks, not that I think I am back…I know I am back. Although not only is it a little hard for me to keep track of time (Is this a…what day is this?) but it is a little hard for me to keep track of when my vacations start and when they stop.
Yes…I never grow tired of rubbing it in to you bread winners out there in cyber world…the good news is that you are still relevant, the bad news is that you are still relevant.
I stay in a camp ground while I am down there without any television or internet unless I go use the Wi-Fi at their office, which I don’t generally do. So it is going to take me a while to catch up on what has been going on here on the blog to see if I have anything constructive to add or even if I have something that isn’t constructive to add, because that is what I do.
In the meantime…I have a rhetorical question for you, who are indeed my closest friends and confidants. Do you think Trouble looks for me wherever I go and sometimes finds me; or do you think I look for trouble wherever I go and sometimes find it?
http://oregondunes.com/1BadJeepers.html
I would especially like my good friend from Canada (Rocksteady) to watch this video. God Bless the Canadian people who are some of our best friends and closest allies!
cute- welcome home Gary
happy birthday mom and brother 🙂
had to put that in there too-
Is that a new website of yours Gary?
Yes, it is thank you. I only do things so I can make a website about doing them. It’s kind of ass backwards compared to why most people do things. And if you want to really see a glimpse of the dunes (and who doesn’t?) check out this short video.
https://youtu.be/cziqNayVFq0
Bad To The Bone
The sand shook underneath my feet!
Wow! You people (and for those of you who are new to our little experiment in social media called the IM Blog for lack of a better term, “What do you mean YOU people” is one of my oldest and tiredest jokes from the movie “Tropic Thunder”) have really stepped in it this time.
First…a little house cleaning.
1. Bob – I read what you wrote to me downstream. I think you were a little harsh with me…don’t you? You know how much I love you…man. Why do we always hurt the ones we love?
2. Joy – I’m sorry I wasn’t available to answer the call when you flashed the Big “G” into the sky (which just happens to be the most commonly used nickname to refer to me, or address me for most of the time I worked for the suits, although I’m not sure why).
But the truth is…I wouldn’t have been able to respond anyway. In spite of the fact that I am blessed with a generous financial backer who tolerates my bad behavior and varied interests and hobbies (although I am officially suspending working on both my Virtual Road Trip and Virtual Jeeping websites to pursue http://www.oregondunes.com and I am embarrassed by how much I paid for that URL by the way) both my time (I do have to take my naps) and my discretionary resources (money) are limited.
And the reason I couldn’t go down that road with your very interesting visitor in the first place, is because the logistics and complexity of getting involved in that aspect of this story exceeded both my available resources and abilities. But nevertheless…I hope things worked out for you and him…you are indeed the Energizer Bunny when it comes to this project…or whatever it is, or has become…an obsession perhaps?
3. The BIA – Do you want the truth? Can you handle the truth? Can I be “That Guy” and tell you the truth without digging myself a hole I can’t get out of? A hole that will be far deeper than any hole I have dug for myself up until now. I don’t know, but I will think about it.
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 10, 2016 at 9:51 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> 3. The BIA – Do you want the truth? Can you handle the truth?
>> Can I be “That Guy” and tell you the truth without digging
>> myself a hole I can’t get out of? A hole that will be far deeper
>> than any hole I have dug for myself up until now. I don’t know,
>> but I will think about it.
In 2011… the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) of the U.S. Department of the Interior ( USDOI ) gave all of us ‘taxpayers’ a good ‘glimpse’ of how BIG the ‘hole’ is ( and always has been? ) with regards to this BIA ‘Wildfire’ program.
It appears that this ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe’ ( like most tribes ) had entered into some form of “P.L. 93‐638″ Wildland Suppression Contract” with BIA… but good luck trying to FIND a copy of ANY ‘agreement’ that BIA signs with ANY of these Indian tribes. They keep these actual PUBLIC contracts ‘a secret’, and Indian Tribes themselves constantly deny any FOIA or ‘Open Records’ requests claiming that they are ‘Sovereign Nations’ and not subject to Federal Law ( FOIA requests included ).
Basically… “Public Law 93-638” is the “Indian Nation Self-Determination Act” and the law that sets the parameters for Indian Tribes ‘contracting’ with the Federal Government for things such as ‘Fire Crews’ being co-managed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ).
But there are ‘loopholes’ in the 93-638 contracts you can fly VLATS through… and ( as the AUDIT below found ) there is vary little ‘accountability’ and a lot of them just become a “license to STEAL” ( taxpayer ) dollars.
The following AUDIT discusses the BIA’s use of ‘P.L. 93-639’ contracts with Tribes for ‘Wildland Fire Suppression’.
It is a SCATHING REVIEW of how BIA goes about ‘making contracts’ with Indian Tribes and then ‘tracking the money’.
It’s a mess. Basically ALWAYS has been.
2011 AUDIT
OFFICE OF INSPECTOR GENERAL
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS WILDLAND FIRE SUPPRESSION
http://www.eenews.net/assets/2011/07/15/document_pm_01.pdf
——————————————————————-
AUDIT
OFFICE OF INSPECTOR GENERAL
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS WILDLAND FIRE SUPPRESSION
Report No.: ER-IN-BIA-0016-2009
July 2011 ( Datestamped July 13, 2011 ).
Memorandum
To: Larry Echo Hawk Assistant Secretary – U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs
Date: JULY 13, 2011
From: Mary L. Kendall – Acting Inspector General
Subject: Final Audit Report – Bureau of Indian Affairs:
Wildland Fire Suppression Report No. ER-IN-BIA-0016-2009
This memorandum transmits the results of our final audit report on Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) use of wildland fire suppression funds.
During this audit, we found weaknesses that include significant problems with tribal agreements, insufficient monitoring of fire suppression funds, failure to record obligations when they are incurred, and various other recording issues.
Our report includes six recommendations designed to improve BIA control over its use of wildland fire suppression funds and thus to reduce the risk of fraud, waste, and abuse.
Based on management’s response to the draft report (see appendix 3), we consider all six recommendations resolved but not implemented (see appendix 4).
NOTE: ‘Resolved but not implemented’ means that the Bureau of Indian Affairs Wildland Fire Management has ACKNOWLEDGED the serious management failures uncovered during this audit… and they have AGREED that the suggested actions could lead to ‘remedies’… but none of these suggestive corrective actions have been implemented as of this writing.
The legislation, as amended, creating the OIG requires that we report to the U.S. Congress semiannually on all reports issued, actions taken to implement our recommendations, and recommendations that have not been implemented.
We appreciated the cooperation and assistance of your staff. If you have any questions about this report, please do not hesitate to contact me at 202-208-5745
Mary L. Kendall – Acting Inspector General
.————————————————————————
Followup…
That ‘excerpt’ above from the USDOI OIG 2011 AUDIT of this BIA ‘Wildfire Fire Suppression’ program is just the ’email’ at the top of it. The entire ( detailed ) AUDIT report is also included in the document at link above.
Here is OIG’s own ‘summation’ section at the top of the detailed AUDIT report itself.
It reiterates that these wonky ‘tribal agreements’ ( or lack thereof )… which no one can ever even SEE because they HIDE them… are one of the MAJOR contributing factors to the fraud, waste and abuse.
—————————————————————–
Results in Brief
We audited the Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ) administration of wildland fire suppression funds based on concerns raised by the U.S. Congress about rising costs and by our Office of Investigations about appropriate use of funds.
We found deficiencies in BIA’s control of wildland fire suppression funds that increase the risk of fraud, waste, and abuse.
The most SERIOUS deficiencies relate to tribal agreements, cost monitoring, recording of obligations / expenses, and paying of expenses
.
These BIA control deficiencies…
1. Jeopardize U.S. Department of the Interior ( DOI ) wildland fire suppression effectiveness because fire suppression funds are shared throughout DOI.
2. Have contributed to the large number of wildland fire-related cases investigated by the Office of Investigations.
3. Have impacted the wildland firefighting activities of states, Indian tribes, and other DOI entities ( BLM, NPS, etc. ) because they SHARE fire suppression responsibilities
.
We believe that insufficient BIA Bureau-level guidance and monitoring are the MAJOR contributors to the deficiencies identified, particularly in regard to those associated with TRIBAL AGREEMENTS.
—————————————————————–
Well…you just did a pretty good job of explaining one of the systems. I am trying to decide if I can (or should) give my take on the on the disease itself after 30 years of working with and around the BIA. And I worked very closely with them extensively for many of those years. It’s complicated. And you are definitely right about one thing…there are a whole bunch of similarities in the two incidents we are currently discussing.
But while I am at it…Bob was right on the money with his analysis of the legal and law enforcement issues linked to this incident. That is the way it works.
I will only add a couple of things to clarify some of what was discussed. The courts have repeatedly ruled that citizens can be detained for a reasonable period of time without being arrested. And for the safety of both the law enforcement officers and the citizens, those being detained can be restrained. How long is a reasonable period of time? Like almost everything in the legal system…it depends. It depends on the totality of the circumstances, more than 15 minutes may be to long and in extreme cases 24 hours or more might not be.
Secondly…another thing that jumped out at me was the discussion on Miranda vs. Arizona and reading someone their rights. A law enforcement officer does not have to read a suspect their rights unless they are in custody and asked questions (a custodial interrogation).
Whoops…major typo.
“Well…you just did a pretty good job of explaining one of the SYMPTOMS.”
actually Gary…no obsession on my part just getting ducks in order
http://images.wisegeek.com/ducks-in-a-row.jpg
because I know once released these ducks will look like this:
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/541/medium/kybbshot1_e.jpg
and it has to be done just right…so they don’t…
…I was going to SHELF all incoming data for one week to rest and get body ready for surgery than Bryan Smith tells me about investigator Emmanuel Martinez so I am focused there for the week or until the 20th-
I have to always keep my door open because you never know and the person you opted to not meet and went to me and Sonny and another…
some of the data is SO “wow” that I cannot comprehend it yet but I will…and about BIA/Natives and the referenced review of wildland fire suppression is scathing than you really have not seen NOTHING yet and like I said loooonnnnggg ago when the rest-of-the-story connects the dots…and it gets the “scrutiny” it well deserves and when is OUR VOICES going to be really HEARD that we the people are allowed to have a RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY to complain/research/investigate when something is not adding up—question Gary, has the flaming arrow attack been ordered from a scale you just see yourself not touching and keep enjoying your toys and dunes? —being a lil’ somewhat facetious in my aforementioned reply but so frustrated the lack of help from the human race and how it s accepting to what it is —is acceptable…but when I saw the hole being dug comment….I felt you SAID ALOT without SAYING…are you Gary the man of our moment to change firefighting…I think so…I do. and I hope you really think on it Big “G” …I was FIRST in line to donate to your GOFUNDME fundraiser so I do “believe” in you. I honestly am working on the financial funding part and the resources and without a doubt I know you are capable…and able even on your worst day to handle this…
do not wait Gary until the Grizzly is right outside your tent… 🙂
I said, “But nevertheless…I hope things worked out for you and him…you are indeed the Energizer Bunny when it comes to this project…or whatever it is, or has become…an obsession perhaps?”
I can see why you thought I was referring to you as having an “obsession”, but I was actually referring to all of us who have participated in something I’m pretty sure none of us ever expected to last anywhere near this long…especially me. I wondered for a long time if I was obsessed about the Yarnell Hill Fire…but now I know I am.
Oh…and one more thing…riddle me this.
I’m not sure I understand your question? Are you asking me…or challenging me to step forward and give my opinion on what is wrong with the BIA in general, their FIRE program in particular and how it relates to the Yarnell Hill Fire?
Or am I reading too much into your question? I really like the whole “flaming arrow attack” reference. It really reminds me of the “Revenant”, which was a totally bitchin’ movie with some great cinematography. And I said that here on this blog when the movie first came out.
like I said you do have a challenge but it aint that—
it is having Joy on a blog who always tell people SPEAK UP those who should and there IS much MORE to the story—
I am not challenging you here or off here Big “G”
but when time comes with finances and resources everything will just fall into place where you will just be there for the journey
you want bitchin’ cinematography…wait until next year when the GMHS film is out
Well OK then.
no you are not—you and everyone here have an obsession…just because you remained here…the more they HIDE the more time it takes to discover…uncover…etc…
The more they were UPFRONT we would not be wasting our hard earned funds on much redacted edited FOIAS–
or be in court for frivolous cases-
if they were pure and upfront I would have my FOIAS complete but I bet you all once this case is upheld I bet ALL OF A SUDDEN they will send me my 3 year old FOIAS…
Look at Charlie Moseley…oh bad example…he passed on but until the day he passed on he was still researching the Mann Gulch fire…ok, look at Dr. Ted Putnam; he is STILL enveloped in the Mann Gulch…
people who know something ain’t right…they are not obsessed- they just want the truth— right WWTKTT-
https://youtu.be/iWfgB4C-TZk
a video on FOIAS
had to laugh…after MY OWN journey with FOIAS….
ANY LOCALS who are visiting John’s page today-
this guy is looking to write about your story on the loss of a home due to the fire- reach out to him…most of you I will directly let you know…deadline is the 20th…
https://www.revealnews.org/author/emmanuelmartinez/
FIRST HEADS UP HERE ON IM!
Reply to Charlie post on September 6, 2016 at 11:45 pm
NOTE: Regarding the recent BIA co-managed and co-sponsored “Beartown Firefighters” fatal Crew Carrier crash on August 27, 2016 ).
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> So it needs to be know if the boss was there and directed this guy
>> to be a driver, just as Marsh directed Steed to drop off into the death
>> canyon. If Steed was directed by Marsh, just as this guy might have
>> been and obviously was if that boss was there, then who in this
>> situation is culpable?
It’s a legitimate question, Charlie.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Maybe WTKTT will help an old timer on this one.
>> The way I see it is buyer beware and if your boss orders you to do
>> something that unintentionally kills him, is the grunt
>> responsible=I say not.
It OBVIOUSLY matters what ALL of the ‘circumstances’ were here with regards to these recent tragic fatalities for a BIA sponsored ‘Type 2’ Crew that was already ‘on the clock’ and charging their hours to that ‘Box Canyon’ fire in Idaho.
SIDENOTE: There are already too many similarities between this FATAL incident and the FATALITIES in Yarnell for me to point out that the “Beartown” Firefighters were on their way to a fire named the “Box Canyon Fire”.
If driver Michael Johnson was THAT tired… then WHY was he that tired?
If driver Michael Johnson was THAT tired… then WHY was he ‘behind the wheel’ at all?
Even in the ‘bad shape’ he was ( apparently ) in… was he in the ‘best shape’ of any of those “Beartown” firefighters and that’s why he was elected ( or ORDERED ) to be the ‘Driver’ at that time? ( 3:00 PM on August 27, 2013 ).
That Crew had to drive 1600 ( SIXTEEN HUNDRED ) miles in order to ‘fulfill’ a ‘resource order’.
That is a LOOONG FUCKING WAY to drive… in a hurry.
SIDENOTE: Witnesses say that ALL THREE of those ‘Beartown’ vehicles in that convoy were doing upwards of 90 miles per hour in a 70 mile per hour zone when the fatalities took place.
And what ‘timeframe’ did they AGREE to in order to get ‘paid’ for this assignment?
Was it an ‘unreasonable’ timeframe they AGREED to?
Just as was the case with Granite Mountain the evening of Saturday, June 29, 2013… should this CREW BOSS ( Doreen Blaker ) really have just UTF’ed the ‘assignment’ for the safety of the CREW that person was responsible for?
These are all ‘legitimate’ questions considering there are two good men DEAD because of the ‘decision making’ that is involved here.
From the actual CRIMINAL COMPLAINT…
https://bringmethenews.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/20160829_johnson-firefighter-michigan-crash-complaint.pdf
From the ‘criminal complaint’ itself…
—————————————————–
Statements were obtained from various witnesses traveling on Highway 35W at the time of the crash.
One witness described driving southbound on Highway 35W and seeing the THREE fire truck vehicles approaching him at a HIGH rate of speed.
The witness moved to the right lane of traffic to allow the vehicles to pass him.
The witness estimated the vehicles to be traveling approximately 80 to 90 mph in a 70 mph zone.
After the THIRD vehicle passed, the witness observed the THIRD vehicle swerve into the right lane of traffic approximately three times. The vehicle then swerved again traveling across the lane of traffic onto the right side of the roadway.
The vehicle attempted to correct itself but traveled back across the highway ultimately crashing into the barrier on the left.
The box separated from the cab and rolled several times.
Another witness described contacting 911 before the crash out of concern of the driving conduct of the vehicle.
This witness called 911 back after observing the crash and provided consistent details regarding the accident.
———————————————————–
Here’s just one of the ‘important’ parts…
“After the THIRD vehicle passed, the witness observed the THIRD vehicle swerve into the right lane of traffic approximately three times. The vehicle then swerved again traveling across the lane of traffic onto the right side of the roadway.”
So just take a moment to think about what THAT ‘eyewitness’ testimony really means.
It means that “Beartown” Firefighter Michael Johnson was ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ for some timeframe even BEFORE the actual ‘accident’.
The WITNESS says they say that Crew Carrier ‘swerve into the right lane’ at least THREE TIMES BEFORE the actual fatal accident took place.
That would ALSO mean that NO ONE ONBOARD that Crew Carrier seemed to be NOTICING what this ‘eyewitness’ was ‘witnessing’ prior to the fatal accident.
So what does THAT mean?
Well… it SEEMS to indicate that ALL of the other Crew Members onboard that Crew Carrier were ALSO ‘asleep’ while Michael Johnson ( the one driving ) was ALSO ‘falling asleep at the wheel’.
Yes… there is testimony from Michael Johnson himself that at the moment of the fatal accident… he remembers someone ‘yelling’ at him… but that only means someone was finally ‘awake enough’ to notice what was happening that FOURTH time he was ‘veering’ out of his lane.
What about the other THREE TIMES?
Why didn’t someone notice Michael Johnson was ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ BEFORE that ‘fourth’ ( and FATAL ) time?
These are all questions that a FULL investigation into this incident might be able to answer.
WHY were ALL of those “Beartown Firefighters” so ‘exhausted’ that they would ALL be ‘crashed’ and no one was noticing that Michael was ‘falling asleep at the wheel’?
As far as the ‘smoking weed that morning’ part of the CRIMINAL REPORT goes… that ( of course ) isn’t going to help Mr. Johnson in any way… but I still think the fundamental ‘issue’ is the ‘lack of sleep’… and NOT whether this guy smoked a little weed hours before the accident.
As it turns out… there is an also an issue regarding whether a member of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe was ever ‘breaking the law’ if they happened to be smoking some weed WHILE on the Indian Reservation.
In December of 2014… this Keweenan Bay Indian Tribe ( which is, in fact, legally a ‘sovereign nation’ that makes its OWN LAWS ) held a ‘referendum’ asking the Tribe if it should be LEGAL to anyone 21 years of age or older to be in possession of, and using, marijuana for BOTH ‘medical’ and ‘recreational’ purposes.
The ‘referendum’ PASSED.
So the Keweenaw Indian Tribe Council then just drafted and approved ‘legislation’ reflecting the ‘will of the Tribe’ and made it LEGAL for anyone to be smoking weed on the reservation.
Problem is… the United States ‘Bureau of Indian Affairs’ then came back and said they could not ‘approve’ such legislation because the possession and use of marijuana was still ‘illegal’ as far as the U.S. Federal Government goes.
That entire ISSUE is still ‘on appeal’… so it’s hard to say whether it really is LEGAL to HAVE and to SMOKE POT anytime on this ‘Keweenaw Indian Reservation’.
But the real point here is WHO actually PROPOSED this ‘referendum’ and this ‘legislation’ to LEGALIZE POT ( for both Medical and Recreational use ) on that ‘Keweenaw Indian Reservation’ in the first place.
( Drumroll, please ).
It was “Bureay of Indian Affairs” ( BIA ) co-sponsored and co-managed “Beartown Fireghters” CREW BOSS ( and Tribal Council member ) Doreen Blaker
That seems to indicate she ( “Beartown” CREW BOSS Doreen Baker ) is very much “pro-marijuana” herself… and might also indicate she has been “looking the other way” for quite some time when it comes to her own CREW ‘smoking dope’.
More to come on this, I’m sure… because there’s an old Irish saying…
Dealraíonn sé t léir a bheith simplí … Is féidir leat a bheith go leor i bhfad cinnte NACH bhfuil sé
Translation: If it all SEEMS to be simple… you can pretty much be sure it is NOT
Interesting Information.
A couple of points–Normal drivers are Squad Bosses and assigned to each Crew carrier.
TWO Each. The Driver and the Shotgun (the two in the front seat) are assigned as drivers normally for the season. The Other one in the front seat would be the relief driver.
There may be one more certified in the crew Carrier. Either one of those other drivers should have called a switch because the driver was tired.
Most times the driver is on a 12 hour drive time WITH BREAKS every 2 hours on a long drive.
The Crew Boss was responsible for calling breaks and checking drivers. Drivers were responsible for calling for a pull over when tired (dozing at the wheel).
A combination of responsibility.
When were they on the Road?
How long had each driver been behind the wheel?
Under the influence of drugs can be hard to determine in the open air especially Marijuana.
depending on when it was smoked. It is how ever a depressant.
I expect if the Blood test comes back with any drugs Johnson can and will be charged with Driving under the Influence. Would Carrie even stiffer charges and may indicate the 250’000 Bail.
If any amount of Drugs were found on the Crashed crew carrier then that would be a reason to pull over the second crew carrier and do a complete search.
The Federal Government has yet to set up a Drug testing program that many have been pushing for. Type 2 crews are not under any control other than getting caught they could be using any thing. No oversight
Federal crews have overhead and higher supervisors that see them every day they are under stricter hiring but within the crew there can be Drug use. Even Alcohol abuse. No drug testing yearly by the FED’s.
This drug thing is a totally another question. It needs to be addressed.
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 8, 2016 at 8:00 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A couple of points–Normal drivers are Squad Bosses
>> and assigned to each Crew carrier.
>>
>> TWO Each. The Driver and the Shotgun (the two in the
>> front seat) are assigned as drivers normally for the
>> season. The Other one in the front seat would be
>> the relief driver.
As far as I can tell ( with what I have researched so far )… the two most experienced FFs in that Crew Carrier that crashed were the two who DIED.
It actually looks like this ‘Michael Allen Johnson’ guy was fairly NEW to the “Beartown Firefighters”.
This is ( so far ) solely based on finding photographs of the “Beartown” crew in the ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ newsletters. The two who DIED go ‘way back’ with “Beartown”… but even in ‘group’ photos from last year… this ‘Michael Allen Johnson’ guy isn’t seen in ANY of these past ‘Crew’ photos.
SIDENOTE: The “Beartown Firefighters” actually claim over 60 ( SIXTY ) firefighters, and the ability to put TWO full ‘Type 2 IA’ teams into the field at once. They have TWO sets of vehicles for transport. One set of Crew Carriers like the one that crashed ( purchased USED back in 2011 ) and another set of Ford 350 VANS purchased back in 2009. BOTH of these ‘teams’ go out under the NAME of “Beartown Firefighters”, and with the same NWCG Unit ID of “MI-KBT”… but with the additional designations of “CREW #1” and “CREW #2”. The actual ‘rosters’ for the crews are never fixed in stone and they play ‘musical firefighters’ to put the Crews together when needed. This is all mentioned in the KBIC newsletters and Tribal Council minutes.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There may be one more certified in the crew Carrier.
>> Either one of those other drivers should have called
>> a switch because the driver was tired.
But first you have to be AWAKE ( yourself ) to even ‘notice’ that the one who is driving is ‘falling asleep at the wheel’.
Eyewitness testimony says that Crew Carrier SWERVED into the other lane at least THREE times before finally swerving all the way ACROSS the right lane and onto the opposite shoulder ( because they had come to a ‘curve’ in the Interstate right by that EXIT ). That is when someone ( right seater? back seater? we don’t know ) appears to have finally NOTICED Johnson ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ and YELLED out to him. Johnson ‘jerked’ awake… noticed himself going off the right shoulder, and then over-corrected and the Crew Carrier now when ‘shooting’ back to the LEFT and back across BOTH lanes of the Interstate. That is when it then went OFF the LEFT shoulder, struck that waist-high cable fencing, and flipped over into the median. Crew Compartment separated from the chassis and kept ‘rolling over’ until coming to a stop.
SIDENOTE; Keweenaw Bay Indian Community ( KBIC ) newsletters and Tribal Council meeting minutes both confirm these were USED Crew Carriers, purchased in 2011 for only $7,000 each from Albuquerque, New Mexico. So they were definitely OLD Crew Carriers. It would be hard to say if any kind of ‘defect’ or even original sub-standard construction is why that Crew Compartment ‘separated’ from the the chassis… but that’s the sort of thing a PROPER investigation could/would reveal.
I’m not saying that the ‘age’ of the vehicle or the ‘original construction’ contributed to the fatalities… but if an actual INVESTIGATION revealed that Crew Compartment was only held onto that chassis frame with 1 inch machine thread bolts from Home Depot… well… that’s a problem ( and could/should spark an Industry-Wide ‘timeout’ and forced ‘inspection’ of ALL ‘Agency Certified’ Crew Carriers regardless of ‘age’ ).
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Most times the driver is on a 12 hour drive time WITH BREAKS
>> every 2 hours on a long drive.
NWCG documents seem to say you cant drive more than 10 hours without an 8 hour ‘rest’ period ( as in… sleep ).
But if you have already been ‘awake’ for 24 hours then it doesn’t matter if the ‘limit’ is a 10 hour or a 12 hour stretch. You should not be ALLOWED to get behind the wheel at all to even START a ‘driving stretch’. You are ALREADY ‘toasted’ and any supervisor who would allow that is ‘negligent’. Perhaps even ‘criminally negligent’.
The concept of ‘depraved indifference’ enters the legal scene here again. If you KNEW something bad might happen, but didn’t care, and let a sequence of events unfold anyway… that’s ‘depraved indifference’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Crew Boss was responsible for calling breaks and
>> checking drivers.
The ‘Crew Boss’ was KBIC Tribal Council member ( and actual tribe ‘treasurer’ ) Doreen Blaker. She was riding in the lead ‘Pickup’ truck with NWCG Unit ID ‘MI-KBT 001’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Drivers were responsible for calling for a pull over
>> when tired (dozing at the wheel).
Of course… but problem there is that if/when you actually DO start to ‘fall asleep at the wheel’… sometimes you don’t even NOTICE ( yourself ) that it is happening until ( as in this case ) something terrible happens.
If you have already been consistently ‘swerving’ into other lanes of traffic ( like Johnson supposedly was )… then someone ELSE in the vehicle is supposed to NOTICE that and do the appropriate “What the FUCK?” intervention.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A combination of responsibility.
Yes. This ‘situation’ really isn’t ALL on just this ‘Michael Johnson’ person.
There could be much more to the story here and another situation of some habitual Crew-related “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” ( BDGO ) suddenly becoming “Bad Decisions with Bad Outcomes”. ( BDBO ).
Just as was the case with Granite Mountain in Yarnell… whatever was going on that day might have been “business as usual” and this just became the day that “business as usual” bit them all in the ass.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> When were they on the Road?
Not known at this time.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> How long had each driver been behind the wheel?
Not known at this time.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Under the influence of drugs can be hard to determine in
>> the open air especially Marijuana. depending on when it
>> was smoked.
But if you were smoking weed WITH someone… then it’s pretty easy to tell if they were doing it… because YOU WERE THERE… at the same time.
We don’t know ( at this point ) WHO this ‘Michael Johnson’ person was either getting his drugs FROM ( other ‘Beartown’ crewmembers, perhaps? ) or who he had done both the Cocaine and the ‘weed smoking’ WITH ( again… other ‘Beartown’ crewmembers, perhaps? ).
We keep hearing and hearing how ‘tight’ these people who ‘scrape the ground and camp out’ together actually GET… and how that ‘closeness’ is touted as one of the big FEATURES of the experience itself, right?
So what are the odds that this ‘crew person’ was doing either the Cocaine blow ( a day or so earlier ) and the ‘weed smoking’ ( that morning ) by HIMSELF?
Was the guy a ‘loner’… or one of those that never does cocaine or weed UNLESS he’s doing it with ‘other people’?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It is how ever a depressant.
Yes… it is… but I still say if you are already as exhausted as this guy seems to have been…. then smoking a little weed isn’t going to help KEEP you awake… but it sure as heck isn’t the primary reason you are going to be ‘falling asleep at the wheel’.
Something that needs to be pointed out, however, is that if this guy was smoking weed in the MORNING ( as he says he did )… then that pretty much indicates he was a HABITUAL user. People who just smoke weed every now and then for recreational reasons don’t ever do it in the MORNING. Only ( regular ) ‘stoners’ do that ( OR… people who have been PRESCRIBED cannabis and are SUPPOSED to have some in the morning ).
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I expect if the Blood test comes back with any drugs Johnson
>> can and will be charged with Driving under the Influence.
>> Would Carrie even stiffer charges and may indicate the 250’000 Bail.
There is still a HUGE debate going on about what really constitutes ‘Driving Under the Influence’ when it comes to marijuana. There really is no STANDARD at the moment and the Courts are playing ‘catch up’.
There are actually SEVERAL ‘cases’ already headed to the ‘Supreme Court’ ( which will probably end up consolidated since they are all based on the same thing ) which will decide whether or not people who live in states where either medical marijuana and/or recreational use can ever be considered ‘under the influence’ for smoking ANY amount of weed.
Case coming out of Colorado involves a man who has been PRESCRIBED cannibas by his DOCTOR… and he was arrested and charged with DUI even for taking his ‘prescribed’ medication… in its exact ‘prescribed’ dose ( which his doctor swears cannot possible be considered a ‘debilitating’ amount in any way ).
But the moment the officer who stopped this guy just HEARD him say “I took cannabis this morning because my doctor told me too”… he arrested his ass for “Driving under the Influence”. As if ANY amount constitutes ‘Driving under the Influnence’. If that ‘sticks’…. then anyone who even ever admits to taking a swig of Nyquil and then getting behind the wheel should also be immediately arrested for ‘Driving under the Influence’.
I don’t know how this is all going to work out… or how the ‘testing’ will be accomplished ( you can’t just use a breathalyzer to test for THC levels )… but it’s all coming down the pike right now and headed to the Supreme Court.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If any amount of Drugs were found on the Crashed crew
>> carrier then that would be a reason to pull over the second
>> crew carrier and do a complete search.
If you watch those multiple VIDEOS of the police ‘zip tying’ the other Crew and searching both THEM ( one by one at the back of a police car ) and the Carrier itself… it is perfectly obvious they had some pretty strong PCRTB ( Probable Cause / Reason To Believe ) that they would find illegal DRUGS before they put that APB out on that Carrier and caught up with it in that gas station.
That was TWO hours after the fatal crash.
Maybe they found something ‘in the wreck’… but maybe they had already received ‘testimony’ directly from detained Crewman/Driver Michael Johnson to give them all the PCRTB they needed to stop that other Carrier.
Maybe Johnson had already NAMED the people he had been smoking weed with that morning… or even NAMED the person(s) he normally gets his weed FROM… and THEY were onboard that other Crew Carrier.
There is, however, still no evidence that they actually FOUND anything in that other Crew Carrier or ON any of the zip-tied Crewman. They were eventually allowed to go on their way and none of them were arrested.
But they DID have at least 2 hours between the time of the accident and the ‘zip-tying’ fest there in that gas station to ‘get rid of’ anything they actually MIGHT have had with them ( or in the Carrier ) that day.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continued from previous ‘Reply’ )…
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Federal Government has yet to set up a Drug testing program
>> that many have been pushing for. Type 2 crews are not under
>> any control other than getting caught they could be using any
>> thing. No oversight
>>
>> Federal crews have overhead and higher supervisors that see
>> them every day they are under stricter hiring but within the
>> crew there can be Drug use. Even Alcohol abuse. No drug
>> testing yearly by the FED’s.
>>
>> This drug thing is a totally another question. It needs
>> to be addressed.
Yes.. it does… but here’s one thing you can be sure of.
The Anoka County Prosecutor(s) are not going to give one flying fuck whether ANY ‘Firefighting Agencies’ are riddled with drug-users who aren’t being ‘tested’ or even ‘discovered’.
The only thing these Anoka County Prosecutors will be focusing on is ‘winning the case’ against the ONE PERSON that they ARRESTED… Mr. Michael Allen Johnson.
Only an ‘Agency Investigation’ would be able to ‘focus’ on the LARGER problem of ‘Drug Use’ within the organization itself… and have the chance to do anything about it.
But there isn’t going to BE an ‘Agency Investigation’.
Despite any/all requirements that there might be in the NWCG ‘Interagency Standards’ which *might* suggest this incident requires an ‘Agency Investigation’ ( because of the on-the-clock fatalities )… The “Bureau of Indian Affairs” ( BIA ) isn’t going to ‘touch’ this one.
They ( and the KBIC itself ) are going to be perfectly content to just sit back and watch “Fire Brother” Michael Allen Johnson get thrown under the bus.
They ( both KBIC and BIA ) will be perfectly content to let this all just look like…
“Nothing to see here but some dope-smoking moron making his OWN ‘Bad Choices’ all on his own. Nothing to do with US. Move along. Move along.”
Willis first lines in video
http://stories.weather.com/story/8137
Does he know more…i would like to not think so..
Listen to his sentence and then I sit with the evidence and then i listen to his sentence
I have always felt empathy for willis but now with evidence I wonder if he hears his own words…do you who I recently hiked hear his words
Hmmmmm…
Makes one want to blurt it like you all…
wake up…
States that do not allow Even Medical Marijuana like Idaho can and do arrest on Driving under the influence. Possession of prescription Marijuana in Idaho is an arresting offence. It is illegal in several states that have not adopted the new Marijuana laws that other states have adopted.
It is illegal to posses or use in Idaho and many other States.
What are the laws in the State Johnson was arrested in?
Both Michigan and Minnesota have medical marijuana laws, but they are for specific conditions and must go through state licensed practitioners. I couldn’t find anything about reciprocal agreements between the states, but I’m sure that there is no excuse for impaired driving. Even use of motor vehicle under the influence of legal drugs like painkillers, muscle relaxers and antidepressants requires that the patient is able to drive safely.
Reply to Muzzy post on September 8, 2016 at 6:31 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Both Michigan and Minnesota have medical
>> marijuana laws, but they are for specific
>> conditions and must go through state
>> licensed practitioners.
That’s correct… and the ‘marijuana legalization’ Ordinance that the Keweenaw Indian Bay Community ( completely contained within the state of Michigan ) has already ‘enacted’ ( but approval from BIA is still pending ) ‘incorporates’ that exact same Michigan ‘medical marijuana’ law… pretty much ‘as is’ and ‘as passed’ by the Michigan legislature.
The Keweenaw Tribal Council ( of which “Beartown Firefighters” CREW BOSS Doreen Blaker is a member and the actual ‘treasurer’ ) has not only appealed the BIA’s ‘non support’ of their ‘marijuana’ ordinance… the Tribal Council has also taken the first steps to changing their own ‘Soverign Nation’ Consitution to REMOVE the requirement that BIA must ever ‘pass judgement’ on the laws the Tribal Council is trying to enact for the reservation.
Doreen Blaker and other members of the KBIC Tribal Council appear ready to ‘go to the mat’ with the BIA over this ‘marijuana’ Ordinance for the Keweenaw Reservation.
They want the ‘possession and use’ of cannabis to be LEGAL on the reservation for ANYONE 21 years of age or older… and they do NOT want the ‘Federal Government’ telling them they can’t pass such an Ordinance for themselves and their ‘Sovereign Nation’.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> I couldn’t find anything about reciprocal agreements
>> between the states, but I’m sure that there is
>> no excuse for impaired driving. Even use of motor
>> vehicle under the influence of legal drugs like
>> painkillers, muscle relaxers and antidepressants
>> requires that the patient is able to drive safely.
Also correct. ‘Impaired driving’ is ‘Impaired driving’.
If you exceed recommended dosages for ‘over the counter’ drugs like Nyquil… you can still be ‘driving impaired’.
However… PROVING someone was ‘impaired’ just because of trace amounts of something in their systems is another story.
Alcohol is easy. There are ‘established standards’ which constitute ‘Driving While Intoxicated’… and breathalyzer results taken ‘on scene’ ( if consent is given ) will usually ‘stand up in the court’.
The interesting case(s) that are headed to the Supreme Court involve people who, while admitting to having ingested some amount of cannabis prior to driving ( for medical reasons ) insist that were NOT ‘impaired’ in the sense that it can/should produce a charge of “Driving While Impaired”.
I think the Colorado case actually comes closest to what might end up being argued in this “Beartown Firefighter” Michael Thompson case ( if he ever is able to have a good attorney ).
It involves a driver who was pulled over ADMITTING to the officer that he HAD, in fact, ingested some cannabis that morning.
Exactly what “Beartown Firefighter” Michael Thompson appears to have TOLD the police following the fatal rollover.
But the OFFICER in the Colorado case… upon just HEARING the person tell him that… ARRESTED the man for “Driving Under the Influence” just based on what he HEARD.
The ASSUMPTION on the Officer’s part was if the person was ADMITTING to having ingested cannabis at ALL… at ANY time that morning or day… then they must somehow AUTOMATICALLY be “Driving Impaired” and should be CHARGED that way.
So I believe that is what is about to ‘come onto the table’ for the Supreme Court. A decision about what “Driving While Intoxicated” really MEANS with regards to cannabis… and whether an OFFICER can just ‘make a judgement call’ like the one in Colorado did… or whether any officer can immediately charge anyone with DUI just because they might ‘admit’ to having smoked some weed ( like Michael Johnson admitted ).
However… I seriously doubt the Supreme Court is going to RULE on this issue BEFORE “Beartown Firefighter” Michael Johnson has his day in court and is tried for ‘Vehicular Homicide”.
So if he’s going to fight the ‘additional’ charge of “Driving Under the Influence” just based on the fact that he SAID he had smoked some weed that morning… he’s going to need a good lawyer.
Even if there was a blood test…and trace amounts of THC were still found in his system, I beleive the “jury is still out” on what exact AMOUNTS would automatically equal a valid “Driving While Impaired” charge.
The legal system really is trying to play ‘catch up’ here.
By the way… here is the ‘Referendum’ that was VOTED on by the entire ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ asking them if they wanted the Tribal Council to go ahead and ‘legalize’ marijuana for the entire reservation…
————————————————–
* 2014 – December 13 ( Saturday )
Keweenaw Tribe ( at large ) votes on referendum to legalize marijuana on the reservation.
The Proposal being ‘voted’ on was worded as follows in the ‘referendum’…
Do you support allowing the Keweenaw Bay Indian
Community to manufacture and/or sell marijuana for
adults 21 and over, and the possession of marijuana
by these adults all subject to tribal licensing, taxation
and regulation?
YES: 298 NO: 267 ( Proposal is APPROVED )
The Referendum PASSED.
The KBIC Tribal Council then began the process of drafting the actual legislation to reflect the ‘will of the people’ and change existing Tribal Law.
“Beartown Firefighter” CREW BOSS ( and Tribal Council treasurer ) Doreen Blaker then became the official ‘sponsor’ of the resulting legislation… and she was also the one to do the First, Second and THIRD ( and final ) ‘readings’ of the draft legislation at Tribal Council meetings.
After the THIRD reading of the new ‘marijuana’ legislation in front of the council ( by Doreen Blaker ), it was then VOTED on right away, at the same Council meeting, and the new ‘Ordinance’ PASSED.
It was then ‘enacted’ ( via signature ) by KBIC Tribal Council President Warren “Chris” Swartz, Jr. on April 8, 2016.
————————————————–
Followup…
There is no way “Beartown” Wildland Firefighter Michael Johnson is going to ‘get out from under’ the charges he is facing. He WAS driving that Crew Carrier. He was ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ and was, apparently, in NO condition to have been driving that vehicle, at that time.
But since the Anoka County Prosecutor and the already-filed CRIMINAL CHARGES are making it clear that they are going to include his admission that he had smoked weed that MORNING ( some HOURS before the incident…possibly even 10-12 hours earlier ) as ‘aggravating circumstances’ to the ‘Vehicular Homicide’ charges… Mr. Thompson needs a good lawyer to help ‘argue away’ those ‘aggravating circumstances’.
Unless the Anoka County DA does have ‘THC levels’ from ‘blood test’ that they are confident going to court with that THEY think proves “Impairment”… then just Mr. Thompson’s admission alone of having ingested SOME ( undertermined? ) amounts of cannibas HOURS before the incident isn’t enough to substantiate those ‘aggravating circumstances’.
The BASE case is that he “fell asleep at the wheel”.
WHY that was so ( what caused him to be that tired and who was letting him DRIVE in that condition? ) should be what is ‘argued’.
But the DA knows that keeping the “…and he smoked dope that morning” charges attached to the case just increases HIS chances of winning and getting a heavier ‘sentence’.
FWIW… here is a document which proves that, among all the other things she is ( Beartown CREW BOSS, KBIC Tribal Council member and Tribe ‘Treasurer’, etc. ), Doreen Blaker has also served ( and still serves? ) as a ‘Court Advocate’ for the Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe COURT system.
http://www.nai.msu.edu/uploads/files/2012_2013_MichiganIndianDirectoryfinal_377530_7.pdf
From that document…
————————————
Michigan Indian Directory
Michigan Department of Civil Rights and
Michigan Indian Legal Services, Inc.
2012-2013 Edition
Federally Recognized and State
Historic Tribes,
State and Federal Contacts,
and Indian Programs and Services
On document page 19…
Legal Services
Keweenaw Bay Indian Community
Court Advocate
Doreen Blaker
427 N. Superior Ave.
Baraga, MI 49908
(P) 906.353.8124
Email: Doreen (at) kbic‐nsn.gov
—————————————–
It is NOT likely that “Beartown” CREW BOSS and KBIC Council Member/Treasurer Doreen Blaker would even be ‘permitted’ to become “Beartown Firefighter” Michael Johnson’s LAWYER for his DEFENSE…
…but she, at least, should be able to ADVISE him as he faces these charges.
Law Enforcement now takes these cases to a hospital where they draw blood by order of the court. If the Person dose not agree to the Blood draw/test. With in 1 hour you get the result.
Marijuana is in the blood not a trace amount it takes 2 weeks to get down to a trace amount.
One cigarette is equivalent to .10 and the Stuff will show in the system for a month. at lowering rates. It dose not disappear like Alcohol over a few hours.
In a case where a driver kills another person. The Blood test is automatic. No matter what Mr. Johnson said.
Correction for above…
I did it again.
I typed ‘Thompson’ instead of ‘Johnson’.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
“Unless the Anoka County DA does have ‘THC levels’ from a ‘blood test’ that they are confident going to court with that THEY think proves “Impairment”… then just Mr. Michael Johnson’s admission alone of having ingested SOME ( undetermined? ) amount of cannibas HOURS before the incident isn’t enough to substantiate those ‘aggravating circumstances’.”
Reply to Bob Powers post on
September 8, 2016 at 8:50 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Law Enforcement now takes these
>> cases to a hospital where they
>> draw blood by order of the court.
There is no question that “Beartown” Wildland Firefighter Michael Allen Johnson WAS taken directly to a hospital following the rollover.
They ( the survivors ) were ALL taken to one hospital or the other.
I believe some of them are actually STILL in “the hospital”.
Mr. Johnson’s injuries ( if any? ) have never been fully described… but just looking at his face in the Anoka County Jail ‘booking’ photo indicates he DID get ‘banged up’ pretty good.
So I’m not sure they even needed a court order to draw some blood when he got there. They probably went ahead and did that, anyway ( for lots of other legitimate reasons ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Marijuana is in the blood not a
>> trace amount it takes 2 weeks to
>> get down to a trace amount.
But you certainly don’t stay HIGH for ‘2 weeks’.
If you know where to find some ‘weed’ like that… I would not be ( personally ) interested… but I can bet I can find you a LOT of people who WOULD be interested in that ‘source’.
Some people don’t even stay ‘high’ after smoking weed for more than an hour or so.
Everyone is different.
So just finding ‘trace’ amounts of THC in someone’s blood only indicates they have, in fact, ingested SOME cannabis, at SOME point.
Enough to deny you a JOB ( or get you a parole violation )… but not enough to say whether you were “Impaired” at any particular moment in the recent past.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> One cigarette is equivalent to 10 and
>> the Stuff will show in the system for
>> a month. at lowering rates. It dose
>> not disappear like Alcohol over a
>> few hours.
It all depends on the ‘trace amounts’ found, and what the accepted ‘dissipation’ rates are… but ( just like alcohol ) those ‘dissipation rates’ can vary from individual to individual… just as ‘levels of impairment’ do.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> In a case where a driver kills another
>> person. The Blood test is automatic.
>> No matter what Mr. Johnson said.
Probably so.
If the DA in this case thinks he DOES have ‘trace levels’ that will stand up in court AND will ‘prove’ a certain ‘level of impairment’… then he’s probably going to try and keep all that evidence ‘admissible’ and ‘attached to the case’.
If he doesn’t have that ( or if that evidence is ‘borderline’ and ‘arguable’ )… and he is alleging ‘impairment’ just based on something Mr. Johnson SAID… then a good defense lawyer can probably ‘argue that away’.
Again… the BASE CASE here is that he “fell asleep at the wheel”… and that he ( supposedly ) had only slept for 45 minutes within the previous 24 hour period.
WHY that was the case… and WHO knew about his condition yet still allowed him to be driving that vehicle… are things that SHOULD come out at ‘the trial’.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
September 8, 2016 at 8:50 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Marijuana is in the blood not a trace
>> amount it takes 2 weeks to get down
>> to a trace amount.
>> One cigarette is equivalent to .10
>> and the Stuff will show in the system
>> for a month. at lowering rates.
>> It dose not disappear like Alcohol
>> over a few hours.
Here’s just ONE link that shows how ‘confusing’ this can all get, when push comes to shove.
It’s a report on a study done by the ‘National Institute on Drug Abuse’ ( NIDA ) showing how THC blood levels can’t really be trusted to establish levels of ‘intoxication’…
New NIDA Study: THC Blood Levels Do NOT Accurately Measure Intoxication
http://thejointblog.com/new-nida-study-thc-blood-levels-accurately-measure-intoxication/
**
** BEARTOWN CREW CARRIERS WERE BOUGHT ‘USED’ IN APRIL OF 2011
All of the ‘minutes’ from all of the ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ Tribal Council Meetings are available at the following PUBLIC link on their own PUBLIC website…
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/content/minutes
Here is the actual ‘motion’ from the actual April 21, 2011 Council MINUTES which approved the purchase of the two ‘Crew Carriers’ for the “Beartown Firefighters”… one of which was involved in the fatal rollover crash on August 27, 2016.
They were both purchased for just $14,000 ( $7,000 each ), from Albuquerque, NM.
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/sites/default/files/minutes/Council%20Minutes%2004-21-11%20A.pdf
——————————————————————————
MINUTES
KEWEENAW BAY INDIAN COMMUNITY
SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING
TRIBAL CENTER CONFERENCE ROOM
THURSDAY – APRIL 21, 2011 – 9:00 A.M.
A. Date: April 21, 2011
B. Call to Order: President Swartz called the meeting to order at 9:08 a.m.
C. Invocation: Lord’s Prayer and an Ojibwe prayer by Dale Shalifoe
D. Roll Call
E. Declaration of Quorum: President Swartz declared a quorum present and proceeded with the order of business.
F. Approval of Agenda: April 21, 2011
(snip)
J. New Business
2. President Swartz / Tom Chosa / Will Wiggins –
Crew Vans(2) and Radio Equipment (2) from Albuquerque, NM for the fire fighters
MOTION MADE BY EDDY EDWARDS TO APPROVE THE PURCHASE OF TWO CREW
CARRIERS IN THE AMOUNT OF $14,000.00 AND TO INCLUDE EQUIPMENT IN THE
AMOUNT OF $2,800.00. SUPPORTED BY SUSAN J. LAFERNIER.
TEN IN FAVOR (William E. Emery, Susan J. LaFernier, Toni J. Minton, Eddy Edwards,
Fred Dakota, Michael F. LaFernier, Sr., Gary F. Loonsfoot, Sr., Elizabeth “Chiz” Matthews,
Elizabeth D. Mayo, Isabelle H. Welsh),
OPPOSED – 0, ABSTAINING – 0, ONE ABSENT (Jerry Lee Curtis),
MOTION CARRIED.
——————————————————————————
**
** THE ‘KEWEENAW BAY INDIAN COMMUNITY’ NEWSLETTERS
Since the year 2005, the ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ ( KBIC ) has been publishing a monthly ‘Newsletter’ online that is a comprehensive ‘summary’ of what happened that month, including a monthly PUBLIC report on ‘Drug convictions’ coming out of the KBIC Tribal Court.
ALL of those ‘Newsletters’ ( since 2005 ) are HERE on their PUBLIC website…
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/content/newsletter-wiikwedong-dazhi-ojibwe
When available… each ‘Drug Conviction’ report contains the following ‘Header’…
———————————————————————————–
DRUG CONVICTION REPORT
In a continuous effort to reduce the illegal use of controlled substances in our community, the Drug Task Force has requested the publication of pertinent information regarding any convictions of the Controlled Substances section of the KBIC Tribal Code §3.1706. The Tribal Court has agreed to comply with the Drug Task Force’s request and will publish a Drug Conviction Report on a routine basis.
———————————————————————————–
If you read through these ‘DRUG CONVICTION REPORTS’, it is pretty clear that this KBIC reservation ‘struggles’ with a pretty high drug-abuse rate… and you also see evidence that the RANGE of ‘drugs’ being abused is a long one. Everything from marijuana ( the most convictions ) to heroin, cocaine, morphine, oxycontin, other painkillers and other prescription meds, methamphetamine, etc., etc.
You also see a lot of the same LAST NAMES appearing… and MANY of those LAST NAMES match the ones of ‘Tribal Council Members’. No direct ‘convictions’ for ‘Tribal Council Members’ themselves… but it would appear the CHILDREN of the Council Members ( and there seem to be LOTS of them ) are OFTEN arrested for using ‘drugs’. Some two or three or even four times.
One of the ‘interesting’ DRUG convictions being reported PUBLICLY involves a “Beartown Firefighter” by the name of ‘Dave Varline’.
In May of 2010, he was convicted for the THIRD TIME of marijuana possession, and this time he was sentenced to a $1500 dollar fine, 180 days in jail ( minus time served ), and 12-24 months of probation.
But since he was a “Beartown Firefighter”… the KBIC Tribal Court JUDGE added a ‘condition’ to his JAIL sentence that if the “Beartown Firefighters” got called out on a ‘fire’ while he was still in JAIL… he could be ‘released’ from JAIL so he could go fight the fire with “Beartown”.
The KBIC Newsletter with that particular ‘Drug Conviction’ report is here…
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/sites/default/files/news/May_2010.pdf
And here is an ‘excerpt’ from that month’s PUBLIC ‘Drug Conviction’ report showing the 3rd ( THIRD ) marijuana possesion conviction for “Beartown Firefighter” Dave Varline…
PDF page 8…
—————————————————————————————–
Dave Varline, case # 10-038,
controlled substance (possession – marijuana) – 3rd offense
Sentenced on 04/06/2010 to:
1. $1500 fine.
2. 12 – 24 months probation with a $10 monthly probation fee. Probation is to run concurrent with other case #10-039 ( Previous 2nd marijuana possession conviction ).
3. 180 days jail, 150 days suspended and the Defendant is to serve 30 days jail, with credit for 17 days served. The Defendant will be responsible for the costs of any lodging. Jail time is to run concurrent with case #10-039.
4. The Defendant is to obtain a substance abuse screening and follow the recommendations of that screening until successfully completed.
5. The Defendant is to obtain a mental health assessment and follow the recommendations of that assessment until successfully completed.
6. The Defendant is subject to random drug and alcohol testing and will be responsible for the costs of those tests.
7. The Defendant is to report daily to the Probation Officer upon release from jail.
8. The Defendant may be released from jail to work with the Beartown Firefighters if he is called out on a fire.
———————————————————————————————-
“8. The Defendant may be released from jail to work with the Beartown Firefighters if he
is called out on a fire.”
**
** YOU TOO, CAN JUMP FROM HELICOPTERS RIGHT ONTO TREETOPS.
Just last week… the “National Geographic Press” published a new CHILDREN’S BOOK about ‘Extreme Wildfire’.
Amazon > Books > CHILDREN’S BOOKS > Science, Nature and How It Works
Extreme Wildfire: Smoke Jumpers, High-Tech Gear, Survival Tactics, and the Extraordinary Science of Fire
Published: August 30, 2016 by the “National Geographic Press”
Author: Mark Thiessen
https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Wildfire-High-Tech-Survival-Extraordinary/dp/1426325304/ref=as_sl_pc_qf_sp_asin_til?tag=wild018-20&linkCode=w00&linkId=ea1864e1536a2f92c551434812a9895b&creativeASIN=1426325304
Description….
———————————————————————-
In one moment, there’s a simple spark, and then roaring flames surge 200 feet into the air, devouring forests. Trees, from root to canopy, are burned to the ground. Airtankers and helicopters hover above, executing an air attack. Brave firefighters, equipped with flame resistant suits, leap from helicopters onto the treetops and descend to the blazing forest floor.
In this book, young readers will learn about the ecological impacts of wildfires, the ins and outs of fire science including tactics for prevention and containment, cutting-edge technology used to track wildfires and predict fire behavior, and about the impressive skill, survival tactics, and bravery required to control a wildfire. Also included are expert tips, fun facts, and breathtaking photos taken by the author.
———————————————————————-
From the PUBLISHED ‘description’ for this book…
“BRAVE firefighters, equipped with flame resistant suits, LEAP FROM HELICOPTERS
ONTO THE TREETOPS and descend to the BLAZING forest floor…”
…where they engage in battle with Batman and Spiderman and the Teengage Mutant Ninja Turtles chasing the ‘Joker’ and his minions with their supersonic DRIP TORCHES to prevent them from lighting more fires!!!!!
Give me a fucking break.
This is a CHILDREN’S BOOK… destined to be sitting on every end-table in every Dentist’s Office across the country.
This is where the BULLSHIT begins ( and perpetuates ), folks.
The obsessive HERO worship, the misinformation, and the ‘recruiting’.
I think the NWCG itself should actually issue a ‘Public Disclaimer’ regarding this book and ( publicly ) refuse to endorse it in any way.
That book reflects a partial for what the GMHS crew did, at least drop down into a blazing inferno, not a heroic act but a murderous act. It certainly did not make them heroes for being ignorant by needlessly committing to a suicide mission to protect structures. Indeed the book is giving false information to children and pushing the hero worship fantasy. Agreed, that book ought to be removed or used as a book to explain how false information is in abundance.
**
** BIA CO-MANAGED “BEARTOWN FIREFIGHTERS” ROLLOVER TRAGEDY
**
** UPDATE
The Anoka County ( Minnesota ) Judge flat-out DENIED firefigher Michael Allen Johnson’s request for a ‘public defender’ at his arraignment… supposedly on the Judge’s ‘assumption’ that he could ‘afford an attorney’… and the Judge set BAIL at the arraignment to $250,000.
It is still not known if Mr. Michael Allen Johnson had ANY access to a ‘public defender’ from the time he was arrested on through his own arraignment.
Mr. Michael Allen Johnson has been UNABLE to meet even that fairly low BAIL amount, and he is STILL IN JAIL there in Anoka County.
His next COURT hearing ( where there is even the next CHANCE to reduce BAIL or determine if he has the right to a ‘public defender’ ) isn’t until September 27, 2016 ( FWIW: Just 6 days after the scheduled ‘Oral Arguments’ in the Yarnell Hill Property Damage lawsuits appeal ).
So there he will sit in JAIL until he even has a chance to get that BAIL amount ‘reduced’.
FOX TV 6 – Upper Michigan
Update on Michael Allen Johnson of the “Beartown” Wildland Firefighers
http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/content/news/Outpour-of–391959631.html
————————————————————
The driver, 28-year-old Michael Johnson, has been charged with criminal vehicular homicide.
He has NOT posted his $250,000 bond and remains in jail.
————————————————————
The ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe’ for whom he was a ‘firefighter’ is a very small Indian Community in upper Michigan. They actually own and operate TWO separate CASINOS that bring in millions and millions and millions of dollars annually.
Michael Allen Johnson’s CREW BOSS for that BIA-sponsored “Beartown” Type 2 Crew is Doreen Blaker, who has been on this ‘Keweenaw Bay’ Tribal Council for over a DECADE… and is currently its TREASURER ( and she is also has ‘defense counsel’ credits on her resume’ ).
CREW BOSS ( and Tribal Council TREASURER ) Doreen Blaker was IN ( and possible driving ) that 3rd ‘Superintendent’ pickup truck in that “Beartown” convoy when the fatal rollover took place… and a POLICE witness testified in the CRIMINAL REPORT itself that ALL THREE of those “Beartown” vehicles passed him going “like bats out of hell” and upwards of 90 miles per hour just before the accident took place.
Yet even this TRIBE ( with ongoing income from TWO CASINOS ) for whom Michael Allen Johnson worked as a Wildland Firefighter couldn’t find a way to help him ‘make’ his lousy $250,000 BAIL and they are just letting him sit there in JAIL over in Anoka County, Minnesota… and so he was unable to even attend the FUNERALS of his two ‘Fire Brothers’ who died in that unfortunate rollover incident.
If you compare the list of the names of the dead and injured “Beartown” firefighters with the actual current and past lists of the members of this “Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’ Tribal COUNCIL… you will also see what a ‘small little world’ it is there in the shores of Lake Michigan.
Almost ALL of the LAST NAMES of firefighters ‘killed or injured’ in that “Beartown” Crew Carrier rollover indicate they were ( almost ) all the SONS of ‘current’ and ‘past’ Keweenaw Bay Indian Tribe’ COUNCIL members ( including the two Wildland Firefighters who were KILLED ).
And someone might be abel to correct me… but so far I can find absolutely NO sign that the “Bureau of Indian Affairs” has lifted ONE FINGER to even issue any OFFICIAL ‘condolences’ of ANY kind regarding this tragic incident involving a ‘Type 2 Crew’ that there is no doubt they were ‘co-managing’ along with the ‘Keweenaw Indian Tribe’.
There were some ‘condolences’ published on social media from outlying BIA posts like the Fort Apache Hotshots organization… but I can still find NOTHING coming from the official “Bureau of Indian Affairs” office(s).
So much for this ‘Firehood Brotherhood’ bullshit.
I hope everyone who works for similar ‘Tribal’ organizations and/or the BIA is taking notice of all this.
They will play up the ‘Firehood Brotherhood’ stuff all day long as a badly-needed recruiting tool… but if you ‘fuck up’ badly enough where they can’t automatically play the HERO ‘card’ in the press… they will throw your ass under the bus as fast as you can say “We need to keep the butts in the seats”.
By the way… the actual ‘Unit Code’ for this BIA co-sponsored and co-managed ‘Beartown Firefighters’ organization, according to the “Bureau of Indian Affairs” own Wildland Firefighting online pages is…
MI-KBT ( Michigan – Keweenaw Bay Tribe )
That’s also the ‘Unit Designators’ seen on the “Beartown” Crew Carriers and the Superintendent truck that Tribal Council TREASURER Doreen Blaker was driving. Her vehicle had the ‘Unit ID’ of “MI-KBT-001”.
More to come on this… I’m sure.
** ‘BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS’ (BIA) MEMORANDUM
** INVITING TRIBES TO ( PLEASE ) HOST ‘TYPE 2’ CREWS…
And HERE is an ‘interesting’ memorandum from the actual DIRECTOR of the United States Department of the Interior (DOI) “Bureau of Indian Affairs” ( BIA ) that was sent just a little over 3 months ago, dated May 25, 2016.
It is a DESPERATE plea to ALL ‘Tribal’ agencies to PLEASE consider letting them HOST and CO-SPONSOR ‘Type 2’ Wildland Crews ( just like they are already doing with the “Beartown Firefighters” at that Keweenaw Bay Tribal Agency ).
They can’t keep the “butts in the seats”… and the “Blue Light Special” is ON.
The only thing missing from this ‘memorandum’ is the “Mission Impossible” style CAVEAT…
“Please note that even though WE require YOU to meet ALL NWCG Interagency Standards… in the event of a SERIOUS accident or injury… not only will we ( BIA ) NOT meet our own NWCG Interagency codified obligations to conduct an investigation… the ‘Secretary will disavow any knowledge of this relationship”
United States Department of the Interior
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Memorandum: May 25, 2016
http://www.bia.gov/cs/groups/xnifc/documents/text/idc1-034173.pdf
——————————————————————————————–
Memorandum
To: ALL Regional Directors
Attention: ALL Regional Forestry and Wildland Fire Managers
From: Acting Director, Bureau of Indian Affairs
Subject: Solicitation of Nationally Sponsored Handcrews and Crew Support
The Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) is providing Regions, Agency and Tribal wildland fire management programs the opportunity to HOST a Type 2 Initial Attack ( T2IA )crew or a Type 2 crew. The national office will not accept proposals to establish Interagency Hotshots Crews.
The BIA’s Wildland Fire Management Program continues to struggle with mulitple vacancies in ALL aspects of the program. However, the initial attempt through the Tribal Resource Management initiative (TRM) to fill vacant positions has created challenges by not having a well-qualified entry level wildland fire management program. In order for the BIA to be successful in our mission to protect trust resources from wildland fire we must build sustainable leadership. This goal will be fulfilled by supporting workforce development through sponsoring HANDCREWS.
If a unit is selected to host a crew, the crew will be designed as a “training crew” and crew will be used for suppression, fuels, emergency stabilization, Burned Area Rehabilitation, and forestry activities.
Proposals are due 30 days after signature of this memorandum.
Proposals submitted after the closing date will not be considered.
If you have questions regarding proposals please contact Dalan Romero,
Fire Operations Director, Branch of Wildland Fire Management, at
(208) 387-5372 or at dalan.romero (at) bia.gov.
Attachments (5):
Criteria for Crew proposals
Crew Minimum Standards for National Mobilization, 2016
Standard Crew Composition and Cost
Crew and Personnel Equipment Cost
Personnel Training Requirements
——————————————————————————————–
**
** “BEARTOWN FIREFIGHTERS” CREW BOSS AND KBIC TRIBE TREASURER
** DOREEN BLAKER REPORTS ON CASINO INCOME.
Just a few months ago, on May 20, 2016, BIA-sponsored “Beartown” Type 2 CREW BOSS ‘Doreen Blaker’, who is also the current TREASURER of the actual ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’, issued a PUBLIC ‘Press Release’.
The ‘Keeweenaw Bay Indian Community’ owns and operates TWO separate CASINOS there in the upper Michigan area, and every 6 months the ‘Tribal Council’ is required ( by LAW ) to make ‘civic distributions’ from the PROFITS.
And they are ALSO required ( every 6 months ) to PUBLICLY ANNOUNCE how much those ‘distributions’ are… and where they are going.
So on May 20, 2016… “Beartown” CREW BOSS and KBIC Tribal Council TREASURER ‘Doreen Blaker’ did just that…
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/sites/default/files/2%25%20Press%20Release%20-%20May%202016.pdf
From that PUBLIC ‘Press Release’…
—————————————————————————
From: Doreen Blaker, Treasurer
Keweenaw Bay Tribal Council
Baraga, MI 49908
906-353-6623
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: 2% Distributions & 8% Payments
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community announces their recent gaming distributions
Since 1993 the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community has been making bi-annual payments from gaming proceeds of their casinos to local units of government and to the State of Michigan. These payments are 2% and 8% respectively and are derived from the net win from all Class III electronic games of chance commonly known as slot machines.
The two-percent (2%) payments are made each May and November. Local units of Government may make requests throughout the year. To receive an award the entity must first make a request in writing.
For the period of October 1, 2015 through March 31, 2016, the total to be distributed to local units of government in Baraga County, which was derived from the Ojibwa Casino Resort-Baraga, was $99,349.95.
The payments approved by Tribal Council for this distribution are as follows:
Baraga County – $27,334.66
Baraga School District – $32,908.09
Baraga Township – $11,011.19
Village of Baraga – $8,464.91
L’Anse School District – $16,424.47
L’Anse Township – $1,851.35
Village of L’Anse – $1,355.28
Distributions totaling $125,915.88 were made to local units of government in Marquette County that were derivedfrom the Ojibwa Casino-Marquette for the same period as follows:
City of Marquette
Superior Watershed Partnership – $25,000.00
MSU College of Human Medicine – $2,500.00
Great Lakes Recovery Center Housing for Women – $13,000.00
YMCA Barriers for Juveniles – $10,000.00
Lake Superior Hospice Bereavement Program – $5,415.88
NMU CNAS Conference – $10,000.00
Charter Township of Chocola y – $45,000.00
Onota Township U.P. Central Trails – $15,000.00
Eight percent (8%) payments are made to the Michigan Economic Development Corporation.
The May 2016 distribution for the Ojibwa Casino Resort-Baraga totaled $360,337.82 and $519,663.55 for the Ojibwa Casino-Marquette.
The next cycle of awards will be made in November 2016.
Local units of government within Baraga or Marquette Counties may apply.
Written requests received before September 30, 2016 will be considered.
—————————————————————————
So let’s do ‘the MATH’ here…
Proceeds from the “Keweenaw Bay Indian Communtiy” (KBIC) CASINOS.
Timeframe: 6 month period ( October 1, 2015 through March 31, 2016 )
1. The KBIC Ojibwa Casino Resort in Baraga..
2 percent of 6 months worth of income from the ‘slot machines’ alone: $99,349.95.
8 percent of 6 months worth of income from the ‘slot machiens’ alone: $360,337.82
Add the ‘8 percent’ and the ‘2 percent’ 6-month slot-machine income values
together and you get a ’10 percent’ value of $459,687.77 dollars.
‘Times 10’ gives a full 6-month slot-machine income value of: $4,596,877.70
FOUR MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY SIX THOUSAND,
EIGHT HUNDRED AND SEVENTY SEVEN DOLLARS AND SEVENTY CENTS.
2. The KBIC Ojibwa Casino in Marquette…
2 percent of 6 months worth of income from the ‘slot machines’ alone: $125,915.88
8 percent of 6 months worth of income from the ‘slot machiens’ alone: $519,663.55
Add the ‘8 percent’ and the ‘2 percent’ 6-month slot-machine income values
together and you get a ’10 percent’ value of $645,579.43 dollars.
‘Times 10’ gives a full 6-month slot-machine income value of: $6,455,794.30
SIX MILLION, FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY-FIVE THOUSAND,
SEVEN HUNDRED AND NINETY FOUR DOLLARS AND THIRTY CENTS.
** TOTALS ( BOTH CASINOS )…
1. The KBIC Ojibwa Casino Resort in Baraga..
06 month total income from slot machines alone: $4,596,877.70
12 month total income from slot machines alone: $9,193,755.40
2. The KBIC Ojibwa Casino in Marquette…
06 month total income from slot machines alone: $6,455,794.30
12 month total income from slot machines alone: $12,911,588.60
TOTALS for BOTH CASINOS added together…
06 month total income from slot machines alone: $11,052,672.00
12 month total income from slot machines alone: $22,105,344.00
TOTAL ANNUAL INCOME ( FROM JUST SLOT MACHINES ): $22,105,344.00
TWENTY TWO MILLION, ONE HUNDRED AND FIVE THOUSAND,
THREE HUNDRED AND FORTY FOUR DOLLARS.
And just as a reminder… here’s how BAIL works.
When a Judge sets a ‘BAIL amount’… you have 2 options…
1. Pay the FULL ‘Bail Amount’… but if you make all your court appearances then no matter what the ‘disposition’ of you case is… you ( or whoever posted your BAIL for you ) get ALL that money back… unless you are officially charged FINES which are then ( usually but not always ) automatically deducted from the BAIL money, If someone ‘put up’ the full BAIL amount on your behalf… and FINES end up being deducted from that money… then you, yourself, would then have to make arrangements to pay that person or organization BACK the money that was DEDUCTED form the BAIL money.
2. Use a ‘Bail Bondsman’. This only requires you to pay 10 percent of whatever the full BAIL amount is and you don’t have to sit in jail. Problem is… that 10 percent is the FEE that Bondsman charge and you won’t get that 10 percent back.
“Beartown” Firefighter Michael Allen Thompson was given a BAIL amount of $250,000 dollars.
So either someone can post the full BAIL amount for him ( and get it all back if there are no FINES deducted )… or Michael Allen Thompson needs to find $25,000 in order to get out of jail at any time before his trial.
Obviously Michael Allen Johnson hasn’t been able to come up with $25,000… and no one is offering to help him do that ( not even the wealthy Indian Tribe he was working for ) and so there he sits in jail.
His next court appearance, where there is even the first chance to ‘reduce’ the BAIL amount… isn’t until September 27, 2016.
What state is he in…wwtktt…what jail?
Anoka County Jail… Minnesota.
That’;s where the fatal BIA-sponsored and BIA co-managed “Beartown Firefighters” Crew Carrier rollover crash took place.
The ‘charges’ against Wildland Firefighter Michael Allen Johnson were filed by Tony Palumbo, Prosecutor for Anoka County, Minnesota, which has jurisdiction in this case…
Well, a nice visit with Brent Yaden. Brent, a Viet Nam Vet is quadraplegic. Well since he can not take the trail up to where they want you to hike, he and he tells me several of his friends, also disabled, some in wheel chairs like himself want to get up there as well. Well Karen Fann has provided a way for the able bodied, now we must, I believe by law provide a way for the disabled.
Now I suggested a tram, but Brent said no, he would like a road up there since he does not trust trams. Well there is much to be said now. We need Karen to figure out a way to get these folks up there where they can view the top of the Weavers and look at where the 19 were killed. The Feds ought to fund this since it is a good thing. It will provide some jobs and do a good deed.
I don’t know the laws on this but I am sure WTKTT will help on this one. I do think you have to provide equal opportunity for the quadraplegic, especially those War Heroes that did suffer from war injuries. See we met several of those men, and they do not want to be denied access to pay their respects the same as any ordinary citizen.
Well I mentioned that they could make a wheel chair thing but Brent says that would be 30 miles of winding and he is right. So how about helicopter service, or a road direct to the site for these people? You wild land fire fighting fellows and others here of due intellect might have some suggestions.
The net is getting tighter. More people are looking at this and influential folks, some in the well healed range of what impresses most–However if you have a few billion bucks you are hard to buck. But impressive too are organizations that scare the shit out of the wrongdoer.
Amazing how it sometimes takes years to get to the bottom of things. But of course we know DNA solved crimes not solved for decades. So science is now beginning to unveil some of the big money players in the game of wild land fire fighting. It will also reveal the dangers and mostly uselessness of fire retardant in a 45 mph wild fire front. But like cigarette smoking, it becomes a battle to expose the money makers and their methods of hiding truth from the common citizen.
I saw two fire fighters, local at the legion tonight. One was happy and one appeared downtrodden or on the angry side. But then that is human in us all. I at times get angry but mostly you will find a smiling Irish fellow. Life after all has the Leprechaun on my side not to mention the beautiful Irish Goddess and the fiery Irish Gods.
There is no better beer than Guiness Stout. It soothes the soul and fights the normal pains of life–of course in moderation. The meds cost much per pill–some pay ten to a thousand for one pill, yet Guiniss is about a buck fifty per bottle and one or two will do you.
Oh, I am not working for Guiness, and Moose Drool out of Montana is not bad either. But Dr. Putnam thinks it has changed. The earlier was better. When you go national, things change.
If you have not tried Guiness Stout, you are not Irish.
Of course Sonny IN MODERATION. Can you define moderation
This guy was not interested in killing his fellows and no more guilty than Marsh or Steed or their bosses. He was working at half mast the same as the GMHS crew, God had other plans for these men, yet he gets a criminal charge while the GMHS bosses that killed 17 are touted as heroes. What gives?
I was trying to think of the name of a Mexican friend that had six in his auto. All drunk in a 63 chevy and all died except the driver. No charges, shit they were all diminished and he just fucked up in his driving same as the others would have.
Olague, drunk as a skunk killed himself but his helper survived. His helper was sober. They should have given him a charge of manslaughter since he was sober but letting Olague drive. See how convoluted things have become. It is a bull shit to give that man a charge where you have men (even his bosses that were having him drive). They did that because they would have likely been worse drivers than him and any boss worth his beans would have never allowed it. When someone drives me, it is because I think they can. If they kill me, it is on me, not them.
So it needs to be know if the boss was there and directed this guy to be a driver, just as Marsh directed Steed to drop off into the death canyon. If Steed was directed by Marsh, just as this guy might have been and obviously was if that boss was there, then who in this situation is culpable? Maybe WTKTT will help an old timer on this one. The way I see it is buyer beware and if your boss orders you to do something that unintentionally kills him, is the grunt responsible=I say not.
But I forgot to wonder who directed Marsh and who above that cowboy directed him and who forgot or was too lazy to take care of the lightening strike–or maybe the lightening strike was a convenient excuse to burn hell out of a brush pile? Fire fighters, as Brandon said, he couldn’t wait to have the privilege to use the drip torches and that is what they do. There must be a certain fascination to having the power of the torch. So many were burned at the stake. I wonder after the deaths of his comrades is he so anxious to burn.
Fire is indeed a very powerful thing, it is all consuming and those that use it watch the devastation that it can bring. Using a drip torch or planning a square burn can and does destroy property, lives and resources.
Someone said to Brandon thank you for your service. Shit, what service, that the rules of safety are hill billy, that he withheld crucial information to save future firefighters–But that is true but harsh since he was trained that way and as the other 17 subject to those that commanded their deaths.
How do you come to believe a lie? Study the Yarnell incident and you will understand how to buffalo the public. But buffaloes are not liars but if they were, then their weight would push the lie. There are too many buffaloes here, maybe the Indians will thin them ought. Well here it takes billionaires, senators, and men and women of truth. Well billionaires, senators, and people of worth that want the truth and have no agenda to turn their heads.
Enough Indians have been killed already.
Just thinking, amusing. WTKTT is on top of things better than most. Who the hell wants to spar with him? He is the guy looking out for the citizen and the wild land fire fighter. You see others trying to be in the lime light, trying to advance themselves and WTKTT just laying this thing out as it is. But if you want to know the facts, WTKTT will let you know.
It is a burr under my saddle when I see people that claim to be heroes, act like they are, yet hide facts from the public. They want to promote their books, play the game with the FS officials that fucked up at Yarnell,l and hope their ass kissing will move them up in life. They forget this about the mysterious death of 19 wild land fire fighters and future wild land fire fighter lives. They forget that they are public servants to the tax payer and should demand absolute transparancy as to their actions for the tax payer and how his money is either properly managed or squandered.
If you want to have your head on the chopping block, become a public servant. If you deceive the public then out you go.
Little known is that one of the 19 had an IQ of over 140. My own son was in that class with a straight A in Chemical Engineering. Still, he used to ask me questions that were out of my range–maybe he was thinking I could encourage him to find those answers. But what a waste, we are not informed of the wonderful kids that were wasted, yet like my son would have followed me even into a death situation.
We come, then we go. But wisdom is very short on this planet. Money, reputations, and emulations take precedent too often. May the young ones learn to be a leader you must first be true.
Joy wants me to define moderation. Ok one or two Guiness if you are a light weight like me. A six pack if you weigh like Joy’s Dad in the 320 range. Giants need more soothing especially if they have six fingers and two rows of teeth and are in the 600 pound range.
I hope alot of comments get removed of yours Sonny due to content and saying things not reality…oh yeah oh ? just living and loving it…got it.
If you had been told you had ten percent chance to live until the coming November, would you deny yourself the dew from the Gods? Joy says my heart according to doctors is either at 13% or 19’% and yet it is still ticking. I think it is a timex heart.
But I found a Doc that feeds me the right info. Live until you die says he.
Where you will not fear death is when you already died. The mundane is nothing and peace in death is something you certainly do not want to give up to come back.
OK so I escaped hospice, and am a rebel to be in a death zone. That is a prerogative of my own. Those dying souls there had no other choice and if they did they did not make it.
Medicine is big business these days. Be a Doctor or a helicopter pilot taking the dying to the doctor. Both are both honorable and highly profitable. Indian dolctors are cheaper and maybe faith healers as well. They all like the rewards though. Why not be a self healer, it is cheaper.
Being on 7 or eight meds makes me a pill addict to a degree. But I adjust them accordingly.
Shame, shame, shame and double shame. Someone killed 17 young fire fighters and yet these men and their bosses are honored and passing around honors as if they deserved them. But am I and the American Public so blinded that we cannot know? I think not, because there are too many well informed men and women of high credentials with furrowed brow at how this incident was manipulate.
Joy could not do much–she does much anyway–If you want a hero, look at people like Joy, WTKTT, Gary Olson, John Daugherty, Woodsman, RTS, Norb, Provencio, Ted Putnam,and on and on. Once they see the situation and weigh it in the balance they see no heroes except the ones killed because they believed in their commanders.
Donut is a hero simply because he was in the category of the 17. We might forgive him for withholding evidence. But he rides a facade like that we are given by the men who created and allowed this disaster to happen. But why waste words and listen to a person that called wild land fire fighting safety rules hill billy. Yet he might become a wild land fire fighting advisor. All it does is show what the FS is willing to do to try to cover up what ADOSH has already proven with their maximum fines. See not all are dishonest–at least ADOSH was not. They smelled a skunk and shot it.
Those you have to love are those that tell the truth. All others put them on the level where they belong among the bottom of the food chain.
But there again, I find many on the lower food chain as good people. So where do you put these rascals?
But now if the public knows how the men were killed by negligence, they will also understand how important it is to have bosses that know their business top to bottom and why that the wild fighter wages are a pittance. It seems to be a given that a young mans life if he is a wild land fire fighter is in the hands of bosses over him.
You can not make up denials to what is safe or holding back information that would save lives. Every future death belongs in some part to that person that deniess safety rules and withholds truth. These people belong in another profession, or at the most honey dippers for the ones that are true to the profession. Yet some make heroes of these people and the gullible public takes it for fact.
Honesty is what the tax payer public deserves–they pay the wages for these public servants. But even more honesty is what the wild land fire fighter deserves. How else can he stay alive.
Love your analysis of smelling a skunk and shooting it
what the heck.
cheese and crackers.
Last I looked there was about a dozen comments-
121 now?
wow.
Time for this intermission video-
https://youtu.be/1jLOOCADTGs
in the midst of a long sleep I want people who had a loss due to fire note I am very sorry for your loss- no action done here will bring them back but rest assured the time will come that what is going on will collapse and hopefully lives will be changed by protocol changes-
question-
Bob Powers needs to refresh the mental of his definition of perfection and introduce a new interpretation of the Idaho fire…
1. how long after the original gps coordinates of original fire in Idaho were the 2 specific burnout operations which saved the town? what time of day or night? and how long did it take? and how far in distance from the flaming front? I see evidence that does not match your compliment and that is why I am curious on my questions…if we don’t start seeing things the way it is versus just perceptions than one day Bob will not have the luxury to fish and Gary won’t be able to play with his toys…and locals here will be asking the old prospectors advice like Sonny and by then Sonny will be drinking a Corona on the Mexico beaches toasting to my pops— when are we going to see the light of the flames—when it is right in front of us; the flaming front…I am preparing myself for one of my biggest challenges to date and I have had some doozies over time…but opinions on a blog needs to start rolling into action…we gathered and on the side we all know what it is we are about to go up against if we do the action …
http://www.newhorizonspcs.com/change_formula.png
I replied to you in the last chapter on your questions JOY.
I guess I was trying to gather more details so if reasking it might bring out updated details…I read fully the reply in last chapter. ..it is just once you sit down with the evidence to THAT fire there you may remain with your view but from my way of thinking all I can see going on across the USA is Houston we have a problem…
T= T R U T H
T= T R O U B L E….see how trouble cant walk the straight solid line but truth can…trouble rolls down yet truth remains…
I can say with truth Sonny ain’t right…writing some off stuff tonight and not correct on me…and bringing up horseshit whatevers but reckon its part of “living and loving it” life…
Im crashing…may try to read a few if I dare…
Joy I am not sure what you are wanting if you look at the Incinet on the Pioneer Fire you will see the Northern Part still not contained. If you look at about the middle of the fir you will see where the large lower section is contained at that point the fire stays to the West of a road. In that junction is Lowman on the Payette River.
Do to EXTREEM fire behavior the Head of the fire has been hard to control and they are doing direct attack on the Flanks.
If you look close in the area below Lowman you will see a small town that was also saved by the Fire managers.
They made time ahead of the fire to prep the towns to save them and did so.
The first IA was huge no dilly dallying around.
Three Air Tankers 3 Helicopters, 20 Smoke Jumpers 4 Engines and The Boise Hot Shot crew That was dispatched in the first HOUR.
This Fire started in Old stand timber that had not burned in 100+ years.
funny on my cell T R O U B L E was broken on to two lines but desktop it is on same line…der…made that make no sense for desktop viewers…heck when have I made sense in all this…
For sure, do not take what I say or anyone says without investigating the facts. Sometimes I am brash and hurt delicate people. Truth burns but cleanses.
Bulldozers on yarnell hill fire 6/30/2013
Previously I inquired about which bulldozers and operators were active on this fire on 6/30/2013.
In answer to my inquiry I was given, in part ,the name of Paul Morin who worked the fire on that date.
I called his phone (928) 775-5964 on 8/20/2016 and left a message that I was interested in his account of the fire as a bulldozer operator. A man ,identifying himself as Paul Morin, called me on 8/29/2016 from (928) 899-1055. I thanked him for returning my call. His main concern seemed to be who had told me to call him – he asked me twice and each time I told him that I read on Investigative Media that he was working the fire that day as a bulldozer operator.
He told me that he was not there and is retired.
The number that he called me from has been identified as that of Rowle P Simmons.
I am not sure what to think of this but wanted to share in the interest of trying to help solve this puzzle known as the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I called that number to confirm the number and who it belonged to…it just rings…
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> The number that he called me from has been
>> identified as that of Rowle P Simmons.
Rowle P. Simmons is the Yavapai County Supervisor ( who represents Yarnell ).
By his own PUBLIC testimony… he was THERE in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and even SAYS that at some point BEFORE the tragedy he TALKED with one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots… but he has never said WHICH one… or what that ‘conversation’ was about.
Just 17 hours after the tragedy in Yarnell, Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons made the following PUBLIC comments regarding the tragedy that had just taken place in Yarnell…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire continues to burn out of control
Published: Mon Jul 1, 2013 9:52 PM
By: Amy B Wang, JJ Hensley, Lindsey Collom, Michelle Ye Hee Lee and Michael Clancy
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/free/20130701yarnell-hill-firefighters-die.html
—————————————————————
Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons, who represents Yarnell, said he is devastated by the loss of life and the fire.
“I am physically sick right now,” he said. “I know these firefighters. I know a number of them personally — one of them, particularly, I talked to when he first arrived ( in Yarnell ) I’ve got myself pretty well composed right now, but I’m in a mess.”
Simmons, who spent the morning and afternoon at the scene, returned home around 4 p.m Sunday.
“And that’s when everything went to hell,” he said. “I’m disappointed that I left when I did — I thought things would be OK. Little did I know it was going to turn into such a disaster. What I’m hearing is complete devastation down there. Propane tanks are blowing up.”
——————————————————————
Despite that fact that just 17 hours after the tragedy,
Rowle P. Simmons is admitting that he WAS THERE in Yarnell that Sunday, and that he TALKED with one of the GM Hotshots ‘after they first arrived’ on Sunday… and that he STAYED in Yarnell for most of Sunday and didn’t leave the around until around 4:00 PM ( the same time GM was departing the ‘safe black’ )… he has never been interviewed by ANY set of investigators.
It remains unknown what ‘level of involvement’ this Yavapai County Supervisor had in the events of Sunday, June 30, 2013 in Yarnell.
If he says he talked with one of the GM Hotshots ‘just after they arrived’… that COULD mean that it was Eric Marsh himself… and that it was at that initial 7:00 AM ‘briefing’ at the Yarnell Fire Station. That is where Eric Marsh went that Sunday when he ‘first arrived’ in Yarnell.
And that would also suggest that this ‘Yavapai County Supervisor’ was actually PRESENT at that initial 7:00 AM briefing ( but was still never interviewed by any set of investigators ).
If the number that you were called FROM actually belongs to this Rowle P. Simmons person… and that number is NOT the number you actually CALLED… then that would suggest that the person at the number you actually called ( presumably Paul Morin ) then felt the need to ‘get together’ with this ‘Yavapai County Supervisor’ and return your call from THAT number, instead.
Followup…
Just 17 hours after the fatalities in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons ( publicly ) told ‘The Arizona Republic’…
“Simmons, who spent the morning and afternoon at the ( Yarnell Fire ) scene, returned home around 4 p.m Sunday.”
It is still not known if this same Yavapai County Supervisor had ALSO been in Yarnell the day BEFORE… when Arizona Forestry’s and AZ employee Russ Shumate’s FAILED Initial Attack took place.
This ‘Rowle P. Simmons’ civil servant might not have even been made aware of what was happenign in Yarnell UNTIL the Initial Attack FAILED… and Russ Shumate first placed his initial ORDER fo a ‘Yavapai County BULLDOZER’.
As Yavapai County Supervisor… ‘Rowle P. Simmons’ might have been made immediately AWARE that Arizona Forestry was requesting that dozer as per existing ‘Interagency Cooperation’ agreements.
He may even have had to AUTHORIZE that ( himself ) on Saturday night when that Yavapai County DOZER was first ‘ordered’ by Arizona Forestry.
How much influence would County Supervisor Simmons have
over the Yarnell Hill fire including the firefighters?
Diane Lomas says
SEPTEMBER 5, 2016 AT 6:48 PM
How much influence would County Supervisor Simmons have
over the Yarnell Hill fire including the firefighters?
JOYS REPLY: just read this—I don’t know…I do not know much about him but all this topic makes me want to “know” who he is…he just got into office again…
Before we get into that question… it’s time to “back up the bus” for a moment with regards to whether or not this Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons was actually ‘involved’ in this recent exchange at all.
See the following response to another one of your posts down below that also begins with “Let’s back up the bus”.
TWO different “Reverse Lookups” that I got around to doing using PUBLIC online services ( Spokeo and Intelius ) say that the number this ‘Paul Morin’ person called you BACK on was simply a ‘Verizon Wireless’ CELLPHONE that does, in fact, belong to a ‘Paul Morin’ who lives at that same address ( with his wife, Jane Morin ) as the LANDLINE you called in the first place.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-346463
So how did YOU determine that the ‘second’ number somehow ‘belonged’ to Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons?
What procedure did YOU use to ‘determine’ that?
What might be a reason for the call from Paul Morin to me to have been made from the supervisor’s home number?
That seems easy.
You said you had left a message for him telling the TRUTH… that you simply wanted to ask him about his experience as a bulldozer operator on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Instead of him calling YOU back right away… it would appear that he immediately informed his ‘old boss’, Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons, that someone was ‘asking about Yarnell’.
Arrangements were then made for he and Rowle P. Simmons to get together in order to ‘call you back’.
That ‘return’ phone call was probably being recorded.
If the person you say ‘identified’ himself as ‘Paul Morin’ also then ended up calling you back from a phone number that belongs to his ‘old’ boss… Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons… that seems to be PROOF that he really was the ‘Paul Morin’ that USED to drive dozers for Yavapai County.
Here again is the exact PUBLIC DOCUMENT that indicates someone named ‘Paul Morin’ was the one who was the ‘first shift’ operator for that Yavapai County Bulldozer that was working the south end of the Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30, 2016…
The actual ‘timesheet’ that was released ( with no redactions ) by Yavapai County..
————————————————-
Dozer: Cat D7R
Serial # 06562
From: Yavapai County
Shift 1:
START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM)
STOP: 2100 (9 PM)
Hrs: 14
Operator: Paul Morin
Shift 2:
START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight)
STOP: 1300 (2 PM)
Hrs: 13
Operator: Donald Rezzonico
——————————————-
If the Paul Morin you talked to now says he “wasn’t there” in Yarnell… then did he still get PAID for this 14 hour shift that this PUBLIC DOCUMENT says he worked?
If this TIMESHEET really is just plain WRONG… then WHO was the actual person who worked that 14 hour shift on that dozer on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and did they get PAID for it ( and not Paul Morin )?
What is also obviously interesting here is that if this is the right ‘Paul Morin’… that even though he is (now) RETIRED he would still be feeling the need to ‘consult’ with a Yavapai County Supervisor ( Simmons ) before talking about his experiences at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
WTKTT,
As always you provide detailed, informative information.
Thank you for going the extra mile to share your expertise
and insights.
Well… you are welcome… but I’m afraid its time to “back up the bus” on this ‘new information’ for a moment.
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> A man, identifying himself as
>> Paul Morin, called me
>> on 8/29/2016 from (928) 899-1055.
According to TWO different PUBLIC ‘Reverse Lookup’ sites ( Both Spokeo and Intelius )… that number that you show up above as the one from which this Paul Morin called you back…
(928) 899-1055
…comes back as a ‘Verizon Wireless’ CELLPHONE number belonging to a ‘Paul Morin’… who lives at the same address ( with his wife, Jane ) as the LANDLINE phone number you called in the first place… which you said above was…
(928) 775-5964
The REVERSE LOOKUPS I did say that BOTH of those numbers belong to the same ‘Paul Morin’ ( whose wife Jane lives at the same address ) there in ‘Prescott Valley’.
So when you also said ( above )…
>> Diane Lomas also said
>>
>> The number that he called me from
>> has been identified as that
>> of Rowle P Simmons.
How did you that “has been identified” take place?
How did Yavapai County Supervisor “Rowle P. Simmons” actually ‘enter the picture’ here… just based on those 2 phone numbers ( that both appear to belong to Paul Morin )?
Whether or not this “Rowle P. Simmons” person is ‘involved’ in this recent ‘exchange’ or not… it DOES appear that the ‘Paul Morin’ you CALLED is, in fact, the ‘Paul Morin’ who used to work for Yavapai County Public Works department… and whose wife Jane Morin worked at the Yavapai County Assessor’s Office.
So when you also said…
>> Diane also said…
>>
>> He ( Paul Morin ) told me that he was
>> not there ( in Yarnell ) and is retired.
That would remain mysterious.
Did this Paul Morin person actually VERIFY that even though he is retired… that he is, in fact, the Paul Morin that USED to work for ‘Yavapai County Public Works’ department?
If so… then his DENIAL that he was there in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 calls that TIMESHEET released publicy by Yavapai County into question.
That publicly-released ( and unredacted ) TIMESHEET says he WAS there operating that dozer for a 14 shift that Sunday… and that he DID get PAID for that shift that day.
If it ends up he ( this Paul Morin person ) really was NOT there… then now the mystery deepens.
1. Why does that Yavapai County TIMESHEET say he WAS there?
2. If he wasn’t… then WHO WAS?
I think wwtktt if you google (928) 899-1055..it went to
http://caller.mobi/928-899-1055
http://www.thiscaller.com/928-899-1055
and there is a Simmons in that area and hence why it needed a call to confirm actual person it belonged to…and said wait on topic until tomorrow to confirm…but how did you get 1055 directed to him Morin too? reverse lookup- i tried it but said I had to pay…
If you complete a PUBLIC ( basic ) ‘Reverse Lookup’ on phone (928) 899-1055 with the online PUBLIC ‘Spokeo’ service… it says that is a ‘Verizon Wireless’ ( Cellular ) number that belongs to “Paul Morin” of “Prescott Valley”… and the address is shown as the same as that LANDLINE number belonging to “Paul and Jane Morin”, which is PUBLICLY listed in the Prescott ‘White Pages’.
‘Rowle P. Simmons’ is nowwhere in the ‘picture’.
Waiting to hear back from Diane how she went about concluding the ‘callback’ was from a number associated with this ‘Simmons’ guy.
Regardless of whether this Yavapai County Supervisor ‘Rowle P. Simmons’ guy was involved in this recent exchange or not… it still remains absolutely TRUE that ( according to his own reports to the media just 17 hours after the tragedy )… he was physically THERE in Yarnell most of the day on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
And ( according to him )… it appears he attended that initial 7:00 AM morning ‘briefing’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire Station and spoke to ( probably ) Eric Marsh himself.
But he has never said what they talked ABOUT… or what he was doing the entire rest of the day there in Yarnell.
Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons was also never ‘interviewed’ by ANY investigators… even after admitting he was THERE most of the day, and had ( apparently ) attended the morning briefing.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
SEPTEMBER 6, 2016 AT 8:33 AM
Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle P. Simmons was also never ‘interviewed’ by ANY investigators… even after admitting he was THERE most of the day, and had ( apparently ) attended the morning briefing.
JOYS REPLY:
I know. There is was just too many missing elements to the investigation- POOR job…but who am I but a housewife and hiker-
Rowle did me wrong. I had alot if people who asked me to help them and in it some had questions about arizona 100 club and yhrg so I sent inquiries to Rowle and then I had heated confrontation with yhrg folks in the sanctuary of the church where i could not comprehend HOW the very letter I sent Rowle was sitting in yhrg hands…???plus he never ever contacted me by phone or email or snail mail…something did not add up because my questions were to and for him….Rowle and Karen Fann won…I told over 200 to do write ins so it would seem they did but their final count I think got bothered in at 99% but I did not vote locally and I am really out on elections for 2016…some try to sway but why bother when its apparent votes don’t mean much because most go to polls ignorantly thinking we are voting prom king and queen in..
I also want to add…that number just rings…if you look number up it connects to a subdivision where a Simmons is but prematurely publicly posted that it is actually the same person so even though the man wronged me I have to state we may be dealing with another Simmons or entity..but in doing google search it can appear…but im fighting a fever and this time turn cell off until better so I dont know the updates but yes I can state in my involvement in matter it does require further confirmations…dont want to pull a man in if he is not..so lets not get all oh e like we hit something until the number we call actually has a person with name picks up…back to sleep.
Someone on side reached out to me as I was almost asleep and I was like better quick get on here and state noone answered that number for me…how about for you.
what we were introduced to does match our own accounts and not the narrative and this was pure unredacted unedited information so it felt good to have evidence…vs just our own views and photos and such where SAIT said ” you sure that is what you saw?”…trying to question what we saw…somewhere in the world backs the hikers up…I have to learn to incorporate all information received to date into my own “witness and/or analytical” description of events of the day…that fire that had fire twisters and went up a hill with tsunami type waves of flames and the major decision was personal, to get-the-hell-outta-there of Sonny but I did not see the danger for we watched a mountain go up in 14 minutes and that is when Sonny left me for awhile and came back and had one of his moment attitudes with pointing to copter with carrying a bag and he said they are carrying out bodies now Joy so let’s go.
I still was not interested. I watched dozers moving and atvs riding and men meeting men and I had my snake boots off with edema and I really think with my new founded evidence I can share with that information I am right in my perception that if I went by the ol’ cattle pond than I would of made it out due to TIME…Sonny tells a great his own perception but really TIME I left area the men dropped off of later that day to deploy- I felt I would be safe to do the ol cattle pond by Helms to ol burro trail…than to car VS his LOOOOOONNNGGEEERRR way out dropping off HUGE boulders into dense manzanita…and maybe this GMHS memorial trail will ONE DAY recreate that exact trail since this board members were so sweet to recreate our hike that day with this trail vs the way the men went (TRUE; this trail is OUR TRAIL 6-30-13 not the men)…only difference we did not go down 89 we went towards Acris’ area on to the ol lone ocotillo trail and on out to Foothills Rd where car was…how come our trail is not dotted on staff ride map to show time stamp of where we were out there and how we went in and out…we are alive so it may help…
First off, special thank you to John Dougherty and Happy Holidays to you sir and thank you for keeping this blog ALIVE…
Can we “pause” the topic until I call and confirm that number and who it belongs to. Try again tomorrow.
Our blog here says we jump into topics without fully looking into topic and what the world/people that are new here does not know none of us hang out outside the blog. ..
there has been meetups but none here sees another off here regular occasionally daily so if we come here innocently trying to work out a question we have than that does not make us like the “national enquirer” but just people purely trying to publicly work through areas of questions “because” and we are not like others being shady and whispering behind closed doors…we come here to correspond about whatever it is we want…called liberty and freedoms of this blog…
we come here to learn or figure out significant evidence.
Like I am going online soon vs this cell and work through some new evidence…and I need to know what went wrong with the investigation of these fires…
Thank you again for Diane’s purity and inquisitiveness and for wwtktt for being there to help us work through it.
Just publicly noting it that Sonny as well as another local who reads here and why I am posting it here…
Yes, there also has been that black suv gov plates by here too not just by you the past week and Yes, there has been “drive-bys” from YCSO so we do not know if its just a friendly neighborhood watch…I have notified the neighbors in state and at home already to alert them…so we can get license plates on them…and keep it noted and documented.
I am the ONE Diane that has an “interest” in this 6-30-13 bulldozer operator in area by the Helms for George Hunter had his home knocked down before it burned down and bulldozer prints were on their property. I do not really need to “know” his fire account too much (others do) just why or how Hunter’s home/concrete wall was knocked down and never notified the owner. These city dads have not helped the locals properly and I am their voice…that includes to this date YHRG.; they cannot say each and EVERYONE was treated equally/fairly..
I am trying to read that book The Wildfire Reader: A Century of Failed Forest Policy by George Wuerthner but have had distractions like rest and fever and Jon Benet on A&E and just this and that but I have not been able to just focus there. What is your take on her? Too much speculations and hiding that it reminded me of YHF.
The past few years has been quite interesting from so many different aspects. I at times get why Sonny and my path intertwined but I have different views at times so always “fact check” if you ever plan to PRINT anything we write separate about that fateful day.
Most asked question from locals- “why do you all hike people or how come you won’t deny any even when ill?”
my reply: because every person who has hiked had their reasons may it been investigative or articles or books or they knew the men or they were a loved one of the gmhs…list goes on but we were THERE that weekend and hopefully it helps others properly assess that weekend versus what is presented and glazed…plus alot want to test their own ability to thrash through unburned similar manzanita scrub oak brush terrain that was there 6-30-13..Some like to peek at Congress side and helispot area and noone would know that unless you were there like us…Some like to see where we saw Marsh or Frisby or Donut and etc…where the equipment was…because those people don’t talk and we have hiked even Donut’s friends NO DIFFERENT than how we hiked others…they all get the same and we are not afraid his pals will tell Donut or higher ups or Willis…seem to us these pals were shut off in a sense after the fire and things were not like it was “before” the fire…some people just hike because they need to further fine tune subsequent questions they have on the YHF…like Stephen Pyne the fire historian and such…some even want to DRIVE OUT from FAR AWAY PLACES to questions they have on Tenderfoot fire…We have seen so much research and analysis that we hope those people SPEAK UP some day…in the recent hike we do speak very well to state if one investigator fair warned us to not talk on phones or emails on it than it MUST BE worthy for all of us here to think about a Montana/Idaho field trip to ALL from IM be PRESENT at this important meeting. There is alot of horrific set of circumstances…culminating in the worst disaster in wildfire history on 6-30-13—but this meeting should be conceivably be the MOST “pivotal” and APPROPRIATE moment bringing things HOPEFULLY towards Truth To Light…and we all can focus on the TRUE natures of the PROBLEM and work towards the steps of implementing SOLUTIONS. Like one problem is let’s just burn all these acres without owners’ permission…and call it necessary even though original fire is miles away…”save the town” mentality I do not buy it because I watched it live on 2 fires here; YHF and tenderfoot…I DO NOT BUY THIS BS ATTITUDE OF THE ONES PLANNING THESE FIRE BURNOUT OPERATIONS- “saving the town and the big-bad-fire crept over the top of the ridgeline”…ahem…bs!…oh yeah you fire folks have bubbling thoughts…”we need to connect our dots to get away from “private owners” and connect the dots to BLM and STATE areas like it all just was lightning strike out of control not from your own master-minds”…come on I watched you all on this last fire…what a joke if you think I buy the fire got carried away—I am NOT the ONLY person present…someone in county was too—hard lesson for that person…oh and as I said many times on here YHF happened near mining claims and right after that was Dean Peak Fire and Globe fire… I’m still, very much, “involved” with “research” on the PIONEER Fire too. Maybe not so much for Bob to answer but maybe someone there that can answer Pioneer fire inquiries with much details as possible…tedious tiny details; bring ’em forward:
1. How long and how wide were each of the 2 specific referenced burnouts, as well, how close at the closest point and the farthest point of the pattern were each of the 2 to the closest homes, they were designed to protect? 2. How large of an approximate acreage was the actual size of the town and were the burnout operations set up in depth, on only one side of the same? What time of day and/or night were each of the same established
(aerial or manual) and were they reinforced with retardant drops? 4. How many minutes or hours did it take for each of the separate stages to be prepared?
Can we talk to people who were THERE 6-30-13?
Primarily, let’s talk the portion of the trail from the grader area to the top and where the crew were at rest as we eye witnessed—`and the North of the same segment to the highest point in time-place-direction and sequence of events that occurred from the ground perspective to as well as aerial. I mean that “mystery man” has never spoke in his interviews about that person’s time on top of the ridge line and location we saw you…
John Dougherty: I know long before the YHF you were on it with inquiries to Yavapai County and areas within your own area; do you think those inquiries and you being a journalist got you the label you got with county folks..I think my inquiries are now getting me that similar label and all I am trying to do is properly YES “properly” gather the data for “personal clarity” and yet look at where I am at—YCSO has been too involved and too partial and I did not do anything to deserve behaviors seen apologies or not…so besides trying to rest and read I am trying to compose in my own words my description of my recent company and new evidence…and HOW the news has affected me deeply and my comprehension and understanding of it overall and I am really down right not Erin B. like Diane says because I am in a phase of seeing unlimited one sided rules which I find to be abuse of authoritarianism.
ALL of us should be able to pick up the phone and call anyone on GOOGLE who has their stuff out their PUBLIC but people like the eyewitness accounts who faced a slice of bs already have to “watch” how they research and search with purity when others have shown to be of harm in this very county…and I do not need to be labelled or MISlabelled in my search for the truth…or land in jail over others twisted actions…
http://cromerlawoffices.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/scared-old-lady4.jpeg
Miss Marple and Nancy Drew would be proud I keep at it…
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/28800000/Nancy-looks-scared-nancy-drew-28828073-240-244.jpg
That’s exactly what I’m working on at this very moment… (additional background info)… WILDFIRES…FOIAS and reading everyone’s books and perceptions…I wish Norman MacLean was here with us because I would of liked to sit down and speak with him…and also with Julius V. to figure out “where to go from here” now that I know what I know…I am sitting with it…but stinks in a way…but I give a damn so I get the patience on it…
right now there is 78 new light fires and 5 are large and three are contained…where they allow 29 run wild…question there is eight type 1 crews out and 12 type 2…is there a book to learn about IMTS?
I had a kestrel on 6-30-13 even told the SAIT team so I am AWARE of weather and Summer monsoons and Sonny is aware of Fire and Lightning Strikes…so HOW COME we were not given the appropriate respect as eyewitness…I mean it is NOT common to find hikers out there who have kestrels on them…nor hikers like us who know that very area…that very terrain…and YET we are ALIVE…DO YOU REMEMBER SONNY SAID IT EXPLODED THAT FIRE…so really our account does matter that fateful day to people wanting to know what happened…please help me get why we have not been shown the proper respect from SAIT to even these county folks and some locals…I have PIONEERED this here area as well as ALL OVER Arizona at different elevations and different weather activities and different terrain…I should of been respected more for my life living of my real time desert dwelling…Sonny mentions movie part should be added of him saving me but I would beg to dissect it more due to timing…plus PEOPLE…what the narratives said the wind changed can easily be redacted and edited to fit their needs even with their own software but I WAS THERE AND I AM ALIVE; real time account…so I have no agenda or angle and so I REMEMBER the TIMES and the WIND SHIFTS…but nobody cared enough…
Higher Ups- the first sentence out of this video-
LISTEN to it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQHH6ImADXo
it is one of my favorite movies…
and like at the end of that video at six minute mark…what she says I say always to the YHF folks who THINK they did right by the 19 and the folks here that were a part in the decisions/planning of that YHF…I feel like that actress; “that pain”…that took alot for her to do that in that TIME in front of those people…and I feel like her…in video:
“Folks were paralyzed in their seats. Cora went on: “They preaches you a pretty sermon and they don’t say nothin’. They sings you a song, and they don’t say nothin’. But Cora’s here, honey, and she’s gone tell ’em what they done to you. She’s gonna tell ’em why…” and I guess its messages like Cora’s that I carry on to ensure the new information goes forth versus walking away from this…
I will do what you asked to out there and take those photos with showing what you need sir- Just let me get my surgeries out of the way…k…thanks
good night.
oh geez…I forgot…I had a message that someone may have proof on the dozer over by the Helms and I have to follow up there…met them the other day as Sonny was at a yard sale…man I have to write it down to do that…geez, totally blanked the bulldozer guy event the other day…
Just a pointer here Joy…
Are you aware that Kestrels need to be calibrated every so often?
I calibrate mine about 3 times per season…. I have seen where some Kestrels, that people have not calibrated for years, are way off, mainly with Relative Humidity..
True. Yes I did as well. Lipinski bought me one because he was convinced the weather was not global warming but one day we would all just wake up with no way to get around and we had to live off the very area around us so since I am the desert walker and he was in his late. 80s we journaled the winds and westher around him….he was a savvy guy that way…I learned alot about the weather from him…he felt the world would freeze before it every got global warming…but he was the one who taught me to calibrate it ever so often
Good for your Dianne. It is refreshing to see that some important people are interested in how their tax dollars are used and want to have answers. You will find that as Joy has, that the people living off your tax dollars will get very skittish when you ask questions. They seem to think in just about all instances that because they are so called authorities in their professions they are beyond question. Joy even had the Sheriff Department called on her (more than once I will add) simply because she was asking questions and wanted the facts in all cases where these wild fires are being worked. I will testify, having witnessed this that there definitely is a resistance to letting the public know the facts. You should think that every action, every report and every reason for action would be a given to the public, not a costly, timely and restive situation to get to that information. When you see the cost, highly redacted information if you finally are allowed any, then you as a citizen become highly suspicious that things are not quite Kosher.
The laws in fact are supposed to allow the public to know what is going on in the wild land fire fighting community. And with enough concerned people, we will get to it.
Rowle, a nice guy, an official and part of the cadre here. He is one to support all the multimillion dollar memorial stuff, forget the 110 that died, and overlook the fatal deaths due to negligence that killed 19. Once you become part of the group think you are mind fucked. There are a lot of mind fucked people in Yarnell that will not and can not see truth. They will say Sonny is crazy, and they would be right except that includes the best of the best among wild land fire fighters, retired elite men in wild land fire fighting and other intelligent citizens that see the facts. My musings are from these people that do this work–and Joy works to help these people expose what they already know is a cover to manipulate the public.
**
** PHOTO OF THE ‘FAKE’ GM DEPLOYMENT SITE?
The ‘principal photography’ phase of this Granite Mountain ‘fillum’ thing officially ended yesterday… and one of the ‘grips’ working the ‘fillum’ has posted a photo to his PUBLIC Instagram social media page which appears to be him standing in the ‘fake deployment zone’ used for the ‘fillum’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJ3wSLXjiOn/?taken-by=darineppich
Notice the ‘moonscaping’ effect… and look down near his feet.
You will see remnants of what appears to be an attempt to ‘imitate’ what the actual deployment site looked like after the bodies were removed. Notice the ’empty bottle’ on the ground along with that same ‘white slag’ and/or ‘shelter remnants’ that was prevalent in all of the ‘after’ photos taken at the actual deployment site.
There certainly was no ‘smoke’ still present at the actual deployment site by the time the bodies had been removed ( as seen in this photo )… but hey… it’s only a movie. Who cares about being ‘accurate’, right? People don’t PAY MONEY to see ‘accurate’… they PAY to see ‘a movie’.
Also notice the ‘background’ in the photo above posted by that ‘grip’ who was working on the ‘fillum’. It really does ‘kinda sorta’ look like one of the ‘sides of that box canyon… after the fatal burnover… but not nearly as TALL as the ‘real thing’.
Good info from Wildfire 65–Thanks
WTKTT, thanks for posting the producer’s idea of the deployment site. Not even close. That earth was as black as an ace of spades -after the fire-the ground here is brown. Make believe works unless you have been there. But it goes along well with the Blue River Hot Shots and the whole damn investigation–not much to detail, more to generalities and the story that it was an accident.
There was a guy in psychological studies that was white, but he painted himself convincingly black to see how things really were for the black person in the South. I don’t think he had to do that to know, but it personalized the situation. I wonder if a few fire men bosses have painted themselves up to be what they are not just to see what it is like to be a fireman. Except they did kill a lot of men here. They would have been better to stay away from what they had not ability to be. But acting at least in the movies does not kill.
DEPLOY There: ANYONE headed to the boulders will get the shit kicked out of them. Too many wild land fire fighters know that the boulders saved some, but we have these days these fire proof blankets. They do not burn, they melt.
Good scene for the movie: Joy and Sonny are arguing at the two track, Joy is headed down toward the fire but Sonny says no–we need to go away from the fire not down into a canyon that is choke full of brush and if that fire changes you are a dead duck. No Joy is not going up, it is too hot, and not the way to go with only a short distance to the Helms and out. Look if that fire changes we will be hard pushed to out run it.
Joy stays, Sonny gets to the top of the Weavers, and says shit that woman doesn’t know shit about wild fires and weather. We just watch the damn thing take a mountain in less than 14 minutes, yet she is wanting to drop off into a trap that will get her killed if the wind changes.
At the top of the mountain after leaving hard head, Sonny senses the calm and a slight wind change. He panics. Shit, I better go back, that woman is going to die in a wild fire. But he is angry because it is a task and a risk going back, a loss of precious moments to get the hell our of a deadly situation.
The anger of Sonny is enough to convince Joy that there is real danger, she better get her boots on and follow. Finally they depart.
Along comes the GMHS crew. Jesse has been ordered by Marsh, et. al., to make it to the bomb proof place at the Helms. How do they know it is bomb proof. Well the Helms hired several locals to clean it up two weeks before the fire. They knew something was up with all the setting aside of the area as an extreme fire danger. Helicopter rides over the Helms verified that it was a safe zone, at least in the bosses opinion.
Steed aproaches the place where Joy was sitting and says: Men, once we drop off in that canyon, there wont be no coming back. That fire is going like a MF but we are needed to help protect those structures at Yarnell, according to Marsh and those bosses at Yarnell. The men respond, You are the greek god of fire work, if you say we go, then we go. Lets do it, we can.
At about that same time, Joy is balking at going down the opposite side of the mountain away from the fire. Sonny is still anxious to keep moving fast away from the fire. A copter goes over, and Sonny says look, they are hauling bodies out already. She finally responds and moves.
This is a true account of things==yet not one man objected to getting trapped in that death basin? Not one man opted to run to the boulders.
What I saw was an exploding fire and to challenge. I think Steed did as well else Steed would not have argued with Marsh.
I hope that men who are grunts begin to understand that today’s fire men are under a command and they are not Greek Gods. They are a bunch of Greek Gods and will fuck you over with their own personal agendas. Your agenda is to stay alive. The simple rules of fire fighting are not Hill Billy, but will indeed keep you alive–they are common sense but not so common sense if you have bosses that skirt them to make a name for themselves, or cow tow to someone above them.
reasons I say FACT CHECK with all the people that were present because “time” and “location” make a big deal on 6-30-13 to reference and side note his perception above—which is again not mine…
also today I want to say HILLBILLY aint so bad when it’s done folk music style which is done sincere and dear from the heart…only when people call the rules HILLYBILLY that is a sign of a reckless heart-
if Donut really GOT what hillbilly is…they are one of the most sincere folks…and I aint saying the redneck modern kind but the golden day ones.
See Sonny and My Own roots here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146751170@N03/shares/260Y4H/
we are simple folks…we don’t care about what you have…check your ego at our door…because we don’t care who you are or who YOU “think” you ARE…but we care about who YOU “really” are…In our way of thinking not one person is above or below us- even if you are the President that once was a Fire Boss long ago….
I once knew a man…oh I still do..Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan “Sonny” aka Charlie on IM…he graduated at 17 so his freshman year in high school Mr. Grant didn’t comprehend the bigger picture when Sonny wanted him to teach him the fiddle in school…Mr Grant thought Sonny lived in a canvas tent on a mountain…he was a “nothing” but a hills boy with these damn ugly shoes…the clod-hoppers…why WASTE HIS TIME training him…
Dear Mr. Grant:
You really treated Sonny wrong…you son of a bitch…you did not know that his dad was Henry Eldon Gilligan who played banjo with Tex Ritter and even sang and also performed with Sons of Pioneers…and traveled all over Texas with his own band but Mr. Grant you only understand “classical”…when Sonny went to college in Silver City NM at Western University…wouldn’t you know years later Sonny tried again to take a class on music appreciation and ran into the “devil” again as he taught that class too. I am glad you gave Sonny a B when he really deserved an A but you must of remembered the days of those clod-hoppers. You said he wasted your time in class because he had no classical musical ability or your style of “class” but if you get some (ok alot) of that whiskey in him and “wham” you never saw such an amazing thing come out of Sonny….brilliantly gifted when intoxicated ONLY…so maybe Sonny went to college sober. Drew Weatherby was a fantastic fiddle player Sonny knew- Drew’s dad owned the ranch that Drew was brought up on…they started by rustling the neighbors’ calves…when he hired what Sonny calls “wetbacks” he would shoot them (if they decided to leave or go back to Mexico- that was it; they would approach Drew’s dad for monies to go home then end of story) and throw them in a mine hole but Sonny’s dad Henry told Sonny the father of Drew was discharged from the military of WW1 because he never took prisoners- he just shot them cold blooded- Yet Sonny wanted to learn fiddle to play next to Drew…he asked Drew how he got sooooo good with the fiddle and Drew said living on the ranch he had lots of time to do it.
I was hiking west of the Grand Canyon with Sonny and I was so mad he can get so darn drunk and be an ass…some would label it a jekyl/hyde but to him he was just “loving and living”…no different than Hank Williams right except that man was wealthier than shit…I would close my eyes and THINK HARD…”Somewhere else”…how many times we all think that in our lifetime…
how many homes are broken tonight because of not just Yarnell Fire but many other fires? or the debacles of another…
I guess these “bosses” are prepping to be our next president…I mean look at Johnson who took over for Kennedy who wanted that Vietnam War escalated where we lost over a million…and what for…always comes back to political and money gain…MONEY, MONEY, MONEY and power games. Look at Iraq and all that BS…so what’s 19 lives to the high ups, right…
Now we have “living” grown ups who failed to use common sense 6-30-13 at another’s expense…when will it change?
WHEN THE TRUTH ARRIVES PUBLICLY
again…”just saying”…we did publicly fair tell those withholding we will be sharing information in due time…
Joy is so correct in her thinking. My brother Jerry did life in prison at the Florence prison, but got out after 27 years and a governors allowance. In some ways I understand–TV helps brainwash people into thinking they ought to be something like that–and it does work.
The point is that over a million died in Viet Nam–they believed as I did that we were fighting for the freedoms for this county. If you now believe that then I have a beach front property in Arizona for a million. And a lot of beach front properties have been sold here for a lot more. I am an amateur in selling beach front properties, even if I do have a licence to sell real estate in Washington. Well not Washington DC where the billiions float like twenties.
I will not argue with Joy, she is way beyond me in intelligence, ability and know how. It truly is amazing to see people who want to spar against her. She will get the truth out, but I am saavy enough to know why. Her mission is and always will be to help those that mostly can not help themselves, but are taken advantage of by those who operate under guises of goodie me, but underneath are ravaging wolves.
The accounts of my own life indeed are amusing, but nothing to do with the new cookie cutter world of candy on every tree and toilets that are sprayed to make sure you dont smell the shit that is really there. Never mind the spray is a carcinogenic–you do not want to offend.
Joys home in congress a cookie cutter affair made out of plastered cardboard looking good enough fools pay 300 grand to live there and have someone watch the gate. I and my four dogs and Joy watch my own gate–a damn good lesson for young wild land fire fighters if they work for a dangerous crew like the GMHS was. Do not forget the was part, it applies to taking care of your own ass, numero uno.
If a young man were to come to a wild land fire fighter, smoke jumper or man like Gary Olsen who are fearless but astute, they would get this advice the one where numero uno is who you better watch out for.
For the record, I threw a pipe wrench at one foreman, took after another with an ax and was fired on both jobs. Those boys had it coming–and they knew it. I am still alive, they are all dead–they were much older, I was younger but I knew survival skills, and was not buffaloed by bull shit.,
It is funny but Mayor Ed Gregory of Congress, AZ sold bull shit for ten dollars a bag. Joy helped in that ordeal and was amazed at how many people that bought it. Old Ed is deceased not long ago smiling about that. But I don’t smile. The bag of bull shit we have been sold here in Yarnell was not because we wanted to buy a bag of shit.
Again with 19 lives and 110 deaths in the three years since, there is nothing even to smile about. Fuckers that took awards for this disaster ought to be hanging their heads in shame–they should be relieved of duty at the least. But because I saw all this, because I am not an expert, these egotistic bastards go to sleep at night thinking the public is no more wise than a lizard puffing itself up on a rock.
But then they think, what are 19 lives on the way up–more than a million sacrificed in Viet Nam ( a rock wall you can go to and cry but of course with 19 a fence restricted from the public because if you go there you will also cry and know how stupid the person was that sent them down into that death trap). But this is life in the fast, money, and political zone. False it is, but it appears to be something different.
Now we are cheking on the prisoners. ? Are they using them like the Chinese do–incarceration and free labor?
How did they know that place was bomb proof? Well Helms did clean it up for defensible space. Leonard helped clean it and this was two weeks before the fire after June 16? So the main bosses knew this. Helms, 10 million per year earning from NASA or FEDS? I do not know but it is public info, Joy told me from the Helms works in Phoenix. Damn sure good thing to know when your area is being decared dangerous on June 16. But we in Yarnell did not get the public notice that I know of. It seemed to be a private, FS situation about that area being set aside on June 16, 2013. What a coincidence that 19 die in that very dangerous entanglement. Too many coincidences, according to my cowboy friends, aint a coincidence.
A murder of 19, but you can not get the FBI to look at it even if it legally is within their view. Still there are some other FBI equals looking into it, maybe they will share evidence. The FBI is not stupid, just quiet. Most have bat hides, so do not discount them.
Amanda takes this lady to court because supposedly Joy was a threat to her. The only threat to Amanda is the truth. She is in the lime light but once the real truth that she hides is known, she will retire to her tepee out of sight.
Yes, the deployment site was a moonscape. But also they forgot to show the boulder field only 70 yards to safety. Yes, those men would have all survived by running to the boulders instead of cutting and piling extra manzanita around themselves. Of course, the bosses want you to believe the Helms was bomb proof and that was their only alternative to live. Bull shit I say.
If the so called authorities allow you to take an honest tour, you will see that every man would have been alive by that 70yard home run. Yet these men are made to believe that a flimsy fire blanket will keep them alive in a manzanita fire. See, they time they took using chain saws and stacking brush was quite longer than it was to just get through the brush to the boulder field where there was no brush.
Right, but Sonny is no wild land fire fighter so what the hell does he know. Well even the Javalinas and the Deer and mountain lions close enough as the GMHS were knew to get into the boulders. Some were scorched (Joy has those photos), but they were alive and doing well by getting into those areas.
See, we have reliable reports that the Helms had cleared up things for defensible space about two weeks before the fire–about when the area on June 16 was declared extremely dangerous and the 320 acres that eventually went to the widows was set aside as so. I do not know if Helms had foreknowledge of the setting aside of the 320 acres.
A lightening strike is a very convenient thing to allow to grow. God decided that the land ought to be burned so sends a strike down out of clear skies. Well it is a nice thing, except, once the fire grows, allow to grow is more proper, and kills 19 and 110 from the side effects of agent orange retardant then eyes and ears begin to perk up.
Oh, and this God had other plans for the 19–like what fighting fires on Venus?
I cannot take credit to this but someone locally said
Joy what if my home was next to the Arizona State Capital and it began to burn and I just let it burn because it was a 1930s built home and in that the wind changed and took out the Arizona State Capital building…would the state hold me accountable? I mean we are suppose to be responsible for own property in putting it out right so why when it was a lightning strike that… sorry all …eventually burned out…mostly sparse and boulders and minimal patches of manzinita that can be avoided…on the Congress side… So my question is how come they allowed it to go past their property boundaries yet if I had campfire and the wind changed and this actually happened to some drunk miners in Congress and its at Sharlot Museum the story but point being when does it stop…next thing you know they will be able to burn on your property without your permission…oops…already do that too right Woody Grantham…he never granted permission to do their burnout operation on his land…on tenderfoot fire….anyways when is going to be this is our land…remember as a kid singing it…I dont feel like this is our land…I think alot of people get the bigger picture and I went back thru chapters and I noted Woodsman kinda touches it and a slice from Gary but noone has really wrote about it yet…
Rocksteady.
Sir. Would you know any fban folks or I saw one named Sonny like Tex…he is out of Teds ol stomping grounds …I think it said almost 30 years…can you name or suggest a few in the field? Is it better to have a current one or retired?
An active one is always better than a retiree… They stay up on the training…
I have no suggestions for you though..
Sorry
But having said that, email me your question and I will do my voodoo FBAN stuff to help you find answers
I dont have your email so email us at [email protected]
Message sent via email
Rocksteady is a stickler. We enjoy his posts and straightforwardness. These are the type individuals you want working for us–Ones that take care of business and do not skirt the issues or hide the truth.
Here we do not quit–we have of late talked to some individuals that are looking into the Yarnell problem — fellows with credentials that can make the weak sweat.
But then there are many on this site with similar credentials—not willy Nilly either and dead serious with what they have. If I were involved in the Yarnell thing and had anything at all to do with causing the deaths of the 19, , I would be at this time loosing sleep or headed to Mexico.
Their investigation indeed should shake up a bunch–but for sure will save lives and expose the BS the public is being fed. These fellows have the money and clout, so get hold of Joy if you have any information to help clean the slate–honor the deaths of the 19 by coming out with the truth of what really went down at Yarnell, between June 28,2013 and June 30, 2013.
Paul Revere rides again.
I don’t know if I would call my self a stickler.
My job as FBAN is to predict fire behaviour to keep crews safe. Not that I don’t also predict how far the fire may travel and possibly impact structures.
To me human life is number one, I take the task seriously and feel compelled to do my best to make sure no one gets over run by fire on any incident I am on..
I suppose Joy here is referring to the Yarnell Hill Fire since the State, three local fire departments, a rancher with a retardant plane and god knows who else let that lightening strike turn into a full fledged wild fire that burned half the residences of Yarnell. Now it was pretty damned obvious that nobody of authority had concern to get that thing out immediately so if they allowed a fire to continue as they certainly did, then are they not responsible to cover the losses and damages caused from such incident. Then a jury or judge would decide fair retribution for such negligent failure to take action.
To top this off on Sunday, when the GMHS crew finally arrived, it was already too late to take action. When Joy and I did see the yellow and white copter fanning the blaze, I told her that they did not intend to control this fire, it was a controlled burn and they expected to clean the mountain off of brush. Well I have been corrected since and the fanning was only the bosses observing how the thing was doing in the boulders–not an intentional act.
Looking at how that fire went up the mountain after 10:30 am on Sunday morning, you would think that there was an accelerant added–but I would suppose that the manzanita was accelerant enough. That is a good question, do they use accelerants to facilitate burns, and what methods are used. Someone mentioned ping pong balls, but how about napalm and what others are used?
I do know that the FS wants no drones or any civilian witnesses in the area during wild fires. In America, if you are willing to risk your ass then so be it. How else will the media keep people honest–for instance how do we know these fires are not just allowed to balloon into big money deals to line someone’s pocket. We damn sure need civilian witnesses to protect the taxpayer. See I know this because when I worked as a manager of a half way house for North Valley Mental Health, I was told by the business manager that I was to spend all the money I possibly could to use up the allotment the Feds put out whether I needed to or not. I was told that if I did not, then the funds might be cut, whereas if they were used up then the Feds would likely provide more. No I did not fleece the public, and needless to say I moved on to another job after a year and started working for Adult Probation in Texas. No mention there was made of Federal funds –I suppose since it was a State funded situation.
There are whistle blowers and I certainly hope they come through on the Yarnell fire. Too much misery from this damn thing, and in my opinion due to greed on someone’s part’ If it proves out that this thing was allowed to grow for greedy reasons, then murder charges are certainly appropriate. They may be anyway, since I still believe Marsh was under direct orders to flank that fire–why else would he demand serveral times that Steed take the dive into a no exit situation?
Sad thing it was every man for himself since the bosses had no sense of danger–yet I think actually they did and took the risk anyway and those young men’s lives as well.
Sometimes you have rogue cops. They had one over in Apache County not too long ago. He was a deputy Sheriff knocking off people right and left –victims he would question and if they gave him any shit he’d make them kneel and shoot them in the back of the head then drive off. Some get the thirst for killing like he had. But his occasional partner got suspicious and somehow intervened to stop the senseless killing. There are crazies and stupids in this world–a few too many, but damn 19 lives at once?
Too bad these young fellows don’t know how to tell some crazy boss to fuck off. I could as a miner and did more than once–maybe up to five times over the years. I can at least think of three. I saved my ass in at least two incidents–but a young fellow with little experience might not know enough when he is in danger due to his boss. It takes balls and then you generally loose your job or have to quit. Donut surely did not have survival understanding and when I think back some miners did not either. One got his head caught in a hydraulic ore chut in that Fierro underground mine when I was working as a raise miner. . Squashed it into a pancake. HTF can you do something like that? But then I saw miners trapped in a cave in needlessly because they listened to Bill, that Ward Mine Boss, while I did not. Mining is dangerous enough even without sticking your head into a hydraulic ore chute. This Bozo was working a rock loose with his head up in there and once he got the rock loose the chute slammed shut on his head. The crushing power of an ore chute will make a pancake out of anything you stick in it.
That is a story about the drunk miners burned to death by sleeping next to a campfire. These old deserts get cold in the winter an a wind is a harsh thing in the cold. I know I have been there and know you best find a wind break or make one if there is any wind at all. I have never had my sleeping bag catch fire but they make some cheap ones that would burn pretty damn quick–rayon on some Chinese crap that looks like it would go up like the Hindenburg. I was deer hunting with one David Walker and he got drunk and fell directly into a blazing campfire but his two buddies were along and drug him out quick enough. As a kid, a Las Cruces, Fire Chief, put a gallon jug with gasoline on my Dad’s wood stove. It broke and I had a burn so deep that I had to have a skin graft. That would have been about 1947 since I was four years old. I think that some of the fire chiefs have better sense these days with the plastic jugs.
Anyway, the point was, despite the wind, the only thing that burned around Congress was those two miners. I have lived on these deserts and there is only a certain season of grass to worry much about. Donut would not have much fun starting fires with his drip torch on some of these deserts–maybe get a few creosote bushes going, but even then they are a bugger to start. They have an oil like manzanita and do burn once you get them hot with some degree of zest. Just don’t get that bush (also called chaparral and grease wood) in your coffee–it won’t be palatable. On that thought old prospector Jim Ward used to make a tea out of it, said it cured Syphilis. He died of liver problems at the young age of 52 there in Safford, AZ. I guess he did what doctors told me about my medications when I mentioned the many side effects–they say you have to pay for the benefits the meds give. He cured syphilis just to die of liver problems. People say that stuff will cure cancer–I don’t know, but I do know it ruins your coffee.
I know it has a component of cyanide same as the laetrile you find in apricot and peach seeds. But then those kemo therapy treatments are poison as hell as well.
And I wrote that about Congress because Joy was worried the fire might get to her cookie cutter home in Weaver Estates. That fire burned itself out headed that way. It takes a lot of brush close together to get a wild fire. When bushes are spread out, and not much between, even in high winds the fire does not spread. But deserts do sometimes get plenty grass and the grass fires can roast you. She was safe but one of the reasons she wanted to see how things were going.
These new fangled fire fighters do not understand the deserts much I see–but some of us old timers lived them all our lives and know them like the back of our hands. A college education does not mean you know anything much. Any professor worth his beans will tell you that. It does give you a pedigree of sorts, and a few have to get bigger hats from all that shit in their brains.
**
** The 4th Annual Mid-South Wildland Fire & Incident Management Academy ( MSWF-IMA )
When: 09-22 OCT 2016
Where: Delaware County Fairgrounds Jay, Oklahoma
Keynote Speaker: Brendan McDonough
Granite Mountain Hotshot
Sole Survivor of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire
14 October 2016 – 1900 hrs
Silent Auction to Benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation (WFF)
http://www.chloetafire.com/services/training/mswfima/
On Brendan’s PUBLIC Facebook page… his ‘occupation’ is still listed as ‘PUBLIC FIGURE’…
https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/
On Brendan’s PUBLIC Instagram page… he describes himself as “Father, Author, Speaker”…
https://www.instagram.com/donut_928/
WTKTT,
I’m not sure why you are perseverating on Brendan’s choice of Public Figure on his FB page. The category “Public Figure” is one of only six available for pages. Pages are for companies, organizations and the like, separate from the profiles most of us have. You can tell which is which: pages get liked, and profiles get friended. The rules for each is different. NBD
Reply to Muzzy post on September 4, 2016 at 9:57 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I’m not sure why you are perseverating on Brendan’s
>> choice of Public Figure on his FB page.
Because as long as he describes ‘himself’ and his ‘endeavors’ that way… I don’t want to hear him complaining that the PUBLIC is, in fact, allowed to talk about him PUBLICLY.
It goes with the turf.
Besides… it’s not ‘perseverating’ if there is a recurrent ‘stimulus’.
Brendan himself keeps ‘providing’ that by constantly PROMOTING himself and his agenda as a ‘Public Figure’ via these PUBLIC pages.
So just look at it as a ‘reminder’ of what this ‘Public Figure’ is, himself, constantly ‘perseverating’ about.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> The category “Public Figure” is one of only six available
>> for pages.
I will take your word for it.
What are the OTHER choices?
I HAVE a ‘Facebook Profile’… but since I have no need or desire to PROMOTE something ( including myself )… I have never created one of these ‘Business/Company/Brand/Public Figure… yada… yada… ‘ PAGES on Facebook.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Pages are for companies, organizations and the like,
>> separate from the profiles most of us have.
Exactly.
And the PURPOSE of creating/managing one of the ‘Pages’ is to PROMOTE something.
Brendan has chosen to ‘promote’ HIMSELF ( PUBLICLY )… and has CHOSEN the label of ‘Public Figure’ for that PUBLIC PROMOTIONAL effort.
And he CONTINUES to ‘promote’ HIMSELF ( PUBLICLY ).
He is now his ‘Own BRAND’… books and lecture circuit and speaking engagements and everything else… and it’s a PUBLIC endeavor.
But it is NOT a ‘non-profit’ endeavor.
He’s trying to make a ‘Living’ as a PUBLIC FIGURE.
More power to him… but every now and then a ‘reminder’ is in order that this is still the case with him.
Brenden is such a bull shitter, riding the show that WTKTT I do ask you why bother with a liar and bullshitter PTSD boy that is enjoying a ride in the lime light. I wonder if on his death bed he will come clean.
It truly is a wonder how people that withhold evidence, omission rather than commission crimes, continue to be touted as heroes of the land. If this is what we have for heroes, may the Goddess of Ireland forgive these bastards.
That is a laugh–what would Donut have to contribute that would educate wild land fire fighters? He many well ride the sympathy wagon for years to come. It might even happen that he would come to tell the truth somewhere down the line- His bosses had him dead along with the others had not Frisby happened along to speed him out on an ATV. People give more respect to truth–they may not be so forgiving if they realize how truth has been withheld on the Yarnell incident that killed 19.
I could be wrong… but I believe what makes this upcoming ‘appearance’ of Mr. McDonough’s ‘different’ from all the other ‘speaking engagements’ and ‘book signing’ appeareances is that this is will be the FIRST time he has been invited to ‘speak’ at an actual, established, NIFC CERTIFIED ‘Teaching’ event.
It’s an actual NIFC approved “Wildland Fire & Incident Management ACADEMY”.
Just like that AWIMA thing held each year outside Prescott on that “Embry Riddle” campus. A place where people spend real money to take CLASSES all week and even attain ‘certification ratings’ for various Wildland Fire ‘positions’ and ‘jobs’.
Normally… any ‘keynote speaker’ at an event like that will speak to topics related to TRAINING… and will also then “take questions from the floor”.
So I wonder if Brendan will be taking “questions from the audience” at this “Wildfire Training Academy”… or whether it’s just a ‘speech’ and “no questions, please”.
Or maybe it’s really just another “book signing event”?
I think they normally have the ‘silent auction’ to benefit the ‘Wildland Firefighters Foundation’ no matter what… so I don’t think that has anything to do with Brendan. They would likely be trying to raise those donations whether he was there, or not.
No wonder the FS is making so many fuck ups. When you have amateurs and people like Donut that withhold crucial evidence in a historical death incident that killed 19 men, then you have to step back and wonder who runs the show.
Do you think the man who stuck his head in a hydraulic chute prying out a rock that had it stuck ought to be teaching miners how to mine had he not had his head squashed to a pancake. There was one difference–Donut out quick enough because someone jerked him out. Had I or another miner been there and seen that guy trying to pry that rock out with his head stuck up in there, we certainly would have jerked the fool out. But we would not allow him to be teaching or preaching or anything at all concerning how to be a miner.
It looks to me the FS is trying to play the game to the hilt. Or does Donut have a hammer over someones head with the information that he has so long withheld. One fact we know is that Donut was a green horn and knows very little about wild land fire fighting. He was relying upon his bosses to stay alive since he said he considered the safety rules as Hill Billy. He barely escaped in a previous fire by his own admission, and again by sheer luck was transported out of a death situation at Yarnell.
Now if I saw Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, Norb, Dr. Ted Putnam or many of the other men that have been there and know their business, I would understand. The sympathy wagon and listening to a guy that shows me nothing correct and a green horn at that and known witholder of evidence, too sick to work that day so took over another mans job as a look out–then indeed to me he would be a Pariah.
As far as I know… with all these ‘speaking engagements’ that this person who lists his ‘occupation’ as PUBLIC FIGURE has had… there have never been any actual ‘real reports’ and/or ‘transcripts’ to show what this person is actually SAYING when he gets up to speak at all these various things ( both paid and unpaid events ).
Maybe this time… since it’s an actual NIFC certified TRAINING event for Wildland Firefighters… someone will actually RECORD it ( or there will be a transcript available ) so the PUBLIC can actually finally see/hear what this person who calls HIMSELF a ‘PUBLIC FIGURE’, Author and Speaker is really SPEAKING ‘about’.
And yes… since it really is a ‘school’ for Wildland Firefighting… maybe this time people will actually be able to ask the guy some actual QUESTIONS.
Would any man of serious intellect take anything serious that Donut with a hole in it has to say? I would love to have him come to my cabin==I think this poor boy has been brain washed and buffaloed by the powers that be. Here, he would be subjected to the scrutiny of Joy, and the subject of the Irish Goddesses and good Guinness Stout. Why do they keep fucking with a kid?
WTKTT, you are a hero indeed. I would like to see any of the so called experts that killed go up against you–you have shown and proved their chicanery so well, They shutter in their boots against you, but that is good. The Irish Goddesses and Gods are smiling well upon you.
Fifth column is still working in America. Some of these bastards involved in the murder of 19 and 110 residents and the destruction of half Yarnell and Glen Isla do think they are safe. But there are billionaire and very astute and influential individuals looking at this. Passing around Humvee, award,s, monies, is a pittance to these people. They look at the big picture–the whole of things and make a decision. Do not be wrong and publicize differently, or you might wake up with bed bugs eating your ass away.
OK Donut said the rules are Hill Billy. So coming from the mouth of a kid, OK. He looked at Hill Billy as a person of ignorance, lacking understanding. But then he never met the many that have bat hides, were born years before he showed up. But it is amusing to listen to his garbage talk. The firefighters the FS wants their subordinates to listen to must be in admiration of his lack of expertise. Be it as it is, the real thing they must see is pity in their eyes. That is what I have, for a soul that calls fire fighting safety rules Hill Billy. If you go along with his definition of hill billy then for sure he will assure that more wild land fire fighter deaths will happen. But the guys he talks to are mostly not that stupid. They will have pitiful eyes, but those of good smarts will listen to men that have greater intelligence concerning staying alive in a wild fire situation. They are not hard to find but detested by some. Most are found here on IM. Bill Gabbert is not stupid either, but he plays along with a lot of BS. How to be loved despite what you know.
However, if you seriously want to stay alive, then here we go, Gary Olson tops the list, followed by Bob Powers, RTS, Rock Steady, Woodsman, Dr. Ted Putnam, Norb, Wayne Neil, Alan St.C;lair and a hell of a bunch of other wild land fire fighters that know the truth and not afraid to tell it. None are kids and afraid to tell the truth of a death situation that killed 19.
You need to define a hero to me. Is that one who kills his men? Just to take on a wild fire with a badge does not make you a hero–more definitely if you kill your men.,
Someone said today on their comment to another…
“You hit the nail….”
If I came on here said what I had to say
Most would not even comprehend the .magnitude of its content that they would be like that someone who said
“You hit the nail..” but for me they would add “you hit the nail on your own coffin”
You know it is going to us all to get together..it really is…to make a difference…not individually and I would not be surprised if you knew what I knew if you were in same spot battling if I can even handle it especially knowing loved ones of the 19 and Bob Powers and Jim Roth…its like I am trying to tell you all here who give a shit…we do need to meet in person…
As long as I am present I am going to ensure my path will be led Above to see this collapse take place and thank you for I dont like the information yet the challenge was given to right gal but its gonna take a no agenda no angle commitment folks to be capable to stay focused to moral and human justice not just for Yarnell but for all over…
Thinking about WTKTT idea of mentioning something about drug testing–
add to that blood alcohol tests and I wonder how many fire fighters we would have left—add it to the government officials, Senators, Reps, Presidents, and on down the line and we would be an anarchy. For sure there would be no underground miners to speak of and a hell of a bunch of the VietNam Vets would have been dismissed before their discharge date.
But maybe you ought to be sure your driver had enough sleep or provide them with one of those cars or busses that dive themselves. That is not far fetched if we took the millions in money wasted on memorials, parking lots and side bullshit and directed toward better equipment, pay and screening of chiefs. Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed are turning in their graves for the waste that should have been properly used. They fucked up royally for so called human factors, but they would want their errors corrected and any and all money possible directed to correct situations and errors that got their men killed.
For the grunt in wild land fire fighting they are getting a pittance compared to the bosses and fellows that drop the retardant and rated FS officials. The first thing is to double line pay right off–the bosses they have are too risky and seems like poorly trained in too many instances. If you have risk taking bosses in wild fires such as the impossible to slow Yarnell Fire, then dock their pay for that risking of lives of their men.
Charlie,
What you’re saying would be great but it’s not WHAT you know (or can produce/accomplish) it’s WHO you know. There’s a critical disconnect between management & the people who actually get the work done. More & more ‘managers’ are achieving the title without earning it by coming up through the ranks…and in an occupation as complex & potentially hazardous as wildland firefighting, we reap what we sow. It’s frustrating as all hell!
Thanks for what you do speaking up for us.
Woodsman
I should have left out ‘complex.’ Wildland firefighting is not complex…unless you make it that way.
Woodsman
Woodsman, that is too sad. You know it does need to be turned around. JD lets the public know through this site. Good Lord, in mining, nearly as dangerous as wild land fire fighting, your bosses drew less pay than the miner. Miners were and are hard to find, bosses a dime a dozen. My son before his death was a deep sea diver and underwater welder. His pay was enormous compared to the fellows that were foremen and did not dive.. Those fellows actually risking their lives deserve their dues just as any miner busting ass does over those choosing to live the easy life of a boss. Similar to mining, I saw Eric overseeing things, jumping around, but when I saw the treacherous work the men did going down that line cutting and dragging brush down a rattlesnake infested steep boulder area I realized how risky it was doing that work. See I have done this type work in the searing heat and know how it taxes one physically as well as mentally. There are few people who can do this type work and even fewer that will do it, yet they are given wages that you can find in a dollar store or Wal Mart. If the tax payer becomes aware of the truth of Yarnell, how little these men that survive are rewarded for their dangerous efforts, then much will change.
Sonny, you are not a wild land fire fighter so WTF do you know? I do know, some will say look now, I have a bat hide (college degree) in this forest business, I have credentials, etc. So I was a miner aside people with bat hides that preferred to make miners wages because their bat hide did not work in that setting. Their bat hides paid them much less than mining. I got my bat hides after a mine cave in, but my brain was still oriented to be a miner. Too much bull shit in psychological bat hides and religious bat hides. Pavlov rats I used to shoot off the rafters in my cowboy days bunk house.
This is not to disparage bosses on the wild land fire fighting crew. They are worth their beans if they keep their men safe and know their business to do that . In mining the miner had to account for himself and his helper–the boss had no responsibility in that direction. To take on being responsible for another human’s life and in the case of 17 lives even more intense. So each profession has its nuances.
Well, I think they do take advantage of the imprisoned. A number of them have died but their wages I wonder if they are the same as the man on the line. America uses the ploy that these men are being trained. Russia puts them in the salt mines for food only. China loves that type slave labor.
Many governments set up and use prisoners unjustly. You would not think America would do that but do not hold your breath.
Well more dangerous than wild land fire fighting if you are stupid enough to put your head in a hydraulic ore chute while prying out a rock that has it jammed. Does it remind you of GMHS crew?
Bad thing, Joy reads me better than I do.
Yes, in this world players and manipulators do well. Brown noses go a long ways it appears in fire fighting. Why I loved mining–there was no in between shit. You are either a miner or not. Once you sound off a jack leg and blast–if your round does not pull you are suspect and you damn sure better pull the next one or you will likely find yourself as a nipper or a honey dipper. For those educated, that is a man who hauls the shit out underground and the nipper fetches for the miner. Your worth is known by what you can do and produce, not by who you know. In mining your bat hide is worthless, and knowing the mine superintendent wont get you a miner’s job if you cant handle a jack leg, slusher, air mucker or pull your round.
Joy and I have an argjuement here tonight. I thing the backburn we saw on video had much to do with trapping the men (off Shrine RD.) She says no, so we have to figure out these things.
Well look at it this way for my good arguement Joy and the GMHS liked to go toward the fire and be trapped in the death canyon. Well she does not think the origonal fire did not kill them . We have photos of two different smoke stacks. Well the thing is time line where the Shrine fire set by drip torches would have trapped them instead. It is a direct line from Shrine to Helms so there is much question we know not intentional but hidden since the video was removed from on line source.
Triple that pay since i heard it is 15 an hour. Good miners now pull 50 or better an hour. Bring em up to miner’s wages.
Joy does not think the original fire killed the men.
Alan Sinclair cleaned up the fuck up of the local fire fighter back burn–so he did become a hero for taking care of a fuck up on the Tenderfoot Fire. Had he been here sooner you would have not had the back burn at all or ruined the electrical system, or even burned one of the three structures. Do keep these city fire fighters to what they do, not wild land fire fighing.
Well, David of the Dolan Springs fire department, being chief there tells me let the structures burn and watch they do not spread. Well give him a salute.
I wonder how many citizens it takes to make things right. Their pay checks are being docked, the authorities have them in a daze, and the tax payer is more ignorant than a buffalo with a buffalo hunter waving hello.
Wake u;p tax payer. These public servants are giving you the royal fucking.
Yes, Joy has been in a bad way and in the past few weeks it has escalated. She has been puking blood pretty much all day It has taken its toll on her. We head to the same Cardiologist tomorrow for both of us. I am fit as a fiddle that has been badly worn but sounds good but I am certainly worried about Joy. If ever there has been a heroine in fighting for the truth here at Yarnell, Joy wins the crown. Maybe I ought to douse her with a bit of holy water–and will if I can locate the local priest.
It is hard to see people dying so young. My last lady was 53, some 8 years ago–she passed of a deadly cancer. I really cared for her and one of the best ladies I ever had–she couldn’t speak. But her actions and fire were enough even without the speech Her mission in life was to care for stray dogs thrown away and abandoned. She had nine and treated them like her children. I inherited her two saint bernards, her main service dogs. Her daughter came and got one from me and because Joy and I were on the road, my son Mark, the RN nurse that got me out of hospice owns the other.
Anyway I dragged a 600 pound rock out of the desert for her tombstone and installed it after putting a plaque on it and attaching a dog chain. Her mom decided they did not want that stone there so I removed it and let them put a conventional stone there. Peggy Long rests there in the Chloride, AZ graveyard a survivor who was told she would not live past 7 years of age, yet despite all her adversities in life managed 53 until killed by a cancer.
When the producer of the play “The Fence” that went on many times in Prescott came to visit us where we were camped on the desert we were introduced to a man who knew about survival. His play used us as main characters, because of his own survival. So many–I believe 19 of his friends had died of AIDS (Joy will correct the number but I think it is correct), yet he is still alive. We as well could have been with the GMHS crew, yet by fate we are alive today, just as that man is.
We fight the good fight, do all the right things, then still we near death and face it daily. Later we learned that had we delayed even ten minutes the way we escaped back to our car on Foot Hills Drive, we too would have been trapped.
There is so much sadness in the horror that happened. We that have lost close loved ones know that heart wrenching feeling. I in truth have lost two daughters and one son. The daughters at birth and the son at 29. The hurt is carried forever==why I support Joy and the many people that want the truth out simply because it will prevent more of the same neglectful deaths we have seen at Yarnell.
The loss of my son drove me to the streets of Seattle for over a year. I lost much of my desire to press forward for a long time. I think if I did not have other children, two sons and another daughter, I would still be there. My daughter was heavily affected since she was close to Ted as I was. My other sons suffered too. It goes on to Ted’s Mother who as well has suffered much after his death and the daughters as well. But when deaths are caused needlessly it hurts even more.
I told Dr. Ted, you are not related to any of these men, yet they are your brothers. You go ahead because of that and because you do not want to see this massacre again. He affirmed that.
Well said, Charlie !
Joy reminds me of Erin Brockovich in respect to her hard work and commitment to the Yarnell Hill fire.
You are an inspiration to all of us Joy!!
Nah Diane…thank you but it takes us all like Amanda Marsh said I am really nothing but a person who saw them on the hill but even she will rethink things when the rest surfaces…nobody much gets it…but they will and ai am just stating it public now so later people dont get mad saying you knew HOW LONG…just need to cover a few areas and I know alot think John has had some tough articles but he will be first than my college pal who works for USA todayWall Street paper to get the news…Someone said release it the same week as the gmhs movie and hell if i am keeping this in that long…
Take your time to nail down all the details. We here have waited years, a little longer won’t matter.
Diane I have not met you, but seeing your photo I can see you are full of fire–like Joy, not one to tangle with. You are a citizen who wants the facts and once you get them, all hell will break loose for the fellows trying to play the tax payer.
Reply to Charlie on Sept 4,2016 at 7:04 pm
Just read your comment Charlie.
You are right-I am all about social justice and fighting for those who can’t
defend themselves—similar to Joy and I can’t tolerate those who lie to
benefit themselves.
The Yarnell tragedy has certainly got my attention.
https://www.mymajors.com/career/fire-behavior-analyst/salary/
Cleared for surgery later this month so back to looking on salary of a fire behavioral analyst and get that rolling…Next is to contract one my way…gets this baby rolling…I think Gary is great to tell woodsman but I think he loves his retirement..toys.and family to really sit down and commit to the magnitude of this…would hope he would because it was not long ago he had a gofundme thing going to do this…I have to gather travel expenses and salary and such for the fire expert…so sonny is ok until the electric goes out and cant get his meds and i can go to part two for my health which took me awhile Fernanda and Holly but finally doing the action…thank you ladies…
Want to let nwcg or forestry fban folks to know I will be not just picking out first come…whomever I contract will not be allowed to share or leak this…and i may pull in a fbi pal of mine to help pick right one…since its not my area…
Joy,
Good to hear from you. I became worried after reading Sonny’s dark musings. Sorry I can’t help with the FBANs.
Keep well…
He does that even when present with my doctors…we just shake our heads…and smile..thats Sonny but yeah he is correct but those are private things in my way of thinking but I was not aware or online and still have not read all he wrote yet but if it was up to me I keep it all to self but certain locals peak on this page to actually see how things are since i dont pick up the phone…but ? yep cleared today…i went to make followup appt with receptionist and doc came right out when he saw me and said no followup…go get em…do the surgery and keep it up…you see if you look at thin pics of yesterdays of me and see roly poly like I blew up a ? and ready to burst nowadays…just in a funk phase…I will pull thru it…but thanks Muzzy…Im doing better than earlier today…
Very strange world with people trying o set you up. Shit they do not know that they themselves are vulnerable and all their false runs will burn them..
WTKTT
After looking at the trucks I do not believe they are BIA trucks.
That would mean as well that The BIA would not investigate a non government owned vehicle crash.
Just a thought here that this was a contract crew with their own equipment On contract through the BIA. That might explain some of your questions.
My observation. A lot of type 2 crew are contract crews. Some do provide their own transportation.
I saw no BIA markings on the trucks did not see a license plate in the Pictures I saw.
If BIA they would have a Government Plate.
You may be right, Bob.
“The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community in cooperation with the Bureau of Indian Affairs manages a Type 2 Wildland Firefighting handcrew. The crew is based out of Baraga, MI. and is available for dispatch locally as well as nation-wide.”
So, Bear Town firefighters apparently are a tribal crew with an agreement or support with/by BIA. Who knows what procedures they use for accident investigation. Maybe the powers that be were too busy adding up the potential cash flow to the community by pimping out a wildland handcrew and they didn’t get to that part yet. Notice the Type 1 hotshot look-a-like crew carriers. Cool!
We have to find a copy of the Keweenaw Bay Community ‘Red Book’ to find out what the dealio is here.
Woodsman
That would seem to be the case. still need more info on this one a lot of twists and turns. a lot of lack of info. The BIA has always been a Step child of the BLM.
Some good crews and some bad Crews over the years,
Are you all talking about the Roll over that occured recently with the BIA crew and there Crew Buggie?
Yes
Mannnn…when was the last time CL was here….welcome CL…hope all is well…
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 1, 2016 at 8:54 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Just a thought here that this was a contract crew with their own equipment
>> On contract through the BIA. That might explain some of your questions.
Thank you, Bob… and I will echo ‘Woodsman’….
You may be right.
Keweenaw Bay Indian Community – Beartown Firefighters
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/content/beartown-firefighters
——————————————————————-
Beartown Firefighters
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, in cooperation with the
BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, manages a Type 2 Wildland Firefighting handcrew.
The crew is based out of Baraga, MI. and is available for dispatch locally as well as nation-wide. KBIC is reaching out to neighboring tribes and communities to recruit firefighters for the upcoming fire season.
Links:
Bureau of Indian Affairs Safety Page
2012 Firefighter Application
—————————————————————————
So what does THIS really mean, then?…
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, in cooperation with the
BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, manages a Type 2 Wildland Firefighting handcrew.
What does “in COOPERATION with BIA” really mean?
And what does ( in this context ) “manage” really mean?
Something tells me we’re going to find out.
It’s obviously all going to come down ( like most things ) to the $$$ MONEY $$$
How much were/are the TAXPAYERS paying to be ‘in cooperation’ with this organization… and/or how much of the ‘overhead’ was/is being footed by taxpayers versus the profits from those multiple CASIONS operated by this “Keweenaw Bay Indian Community”?
Is BIA really going to ‘disavow’ this ‘relationship’ and try to “throw them under the bus”?
Whoops. Typo above. Meant to type ‘CASINOS’.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
How much were/are the TAXPAYERS paying to be ‘in cooperation’ with this organization… and/or how much of the ‘overhead’ was/is being footed by taxpayers versus the profits from those multiple CASINOS operated by this “Keweenaw Bay Indian Community”?
Is BIA really going to ‘disavow’ this ‘relationship’ and try to “throw them under the bus”?
I was also some what surprised that the crew would drive themselves to UTAH.
The Majority of the Time even HS crews are Bussed to Fires that are over 12 hours from their Base. Or Flown to other states.
Then get a load of THE following article.
This ‘Type 2’ crew is CONSTANTLY ‘jobbing out’ all the way out WEST.
They are ‘on the road’ a LOT.
The following article was published almost exactly 1 year ago, and it talks about what a ‘busy’ 2015 season it was for this “Beartown” Type 2 crew. They were actually there on the ‘Chelan Complex’ fire(s) in Washington State when the Twisp Fire ( part of the Chelan Compex ) fatatlities took place.
ALSO NOTE: Unlike most other articles… this one makes NO mention of any ‘affiliation’ between this “Beartown” Crew and the “Bureau of Indian Affairs”.
The Daily Mining Gazette
Facing fire: KBIC firefighters pitch in during western fire season
September 4, 2015 – By Dan Roblee
http://www.mininggazette.com/page/content.detail/id/547179/Facing-fire–KBIC-firefighters-pitch-in-during-western-fire-season.html?nav=5006
From that article…
————————————————————
BARAGA – It’s been one of the worst wildfire seasons in memory in the American west, and the Beartown Firefighters are back in action.
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community-sponsored, 20-person crew is one week into a two-week deployment at a nearly 50,000-acre fire at Lewis and Clark National Park in Montana, said Beartown Chairman George DeCota.
About 33 fires are currently burning across the state, according to the National Wildfire Coordinating Group website, with dozens more in California, Washington, Oregon and elsewhere.
It’s the fourth deployment this season, and “as long as these fires are cooking, we’re going to keep sending crews out as needed,” said DeCota. “They’ve been doing a very good job.”
For now, there’s no end in sight to the fires, said Celeste Chingwa, a regional fire boss for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.
“Right now, the national planning level is five, the highest they look at,” she said. “They’ve brought in resources from throughout the U.S., as well as Canada, New Zealand and Australia.
So, far, the season’s gone well for Beartown, said DeCota, with no serious injuries despite at least one scary situation at the nationally prominent Chelan Fire in Washington State early this year.
At one point, Beartown Firefighters “got chased into the black, with fire on both sides, and had to retreat into the safety zone,” said DeCota. “It gets pretty hairy sometimes with the wind.”
Three U.S. Forest Service firefighters died in the Chelan Fire when their vehicle crashed and fast-moving flames overtook them.
Just two days after returning from that deployment, Beartown was shipped out again, to the northern Rockies, DeCota said.
He said Beartown Crew Boss Doreen Blaker, who also serves the KBIC as a tribal council member and court defense advocate, has been doing a great job leading the team, a sentiment shared by National Forest Service regional dispatcher Kim Owczarzak, who coordinates crews from numerous agencies.
Blaker is “really dialed in on how to organize people,” Owczarzak said.
DeCota said Beartown has also sent two or three rookies on each deployment, and they’ve mostly held their own.
“We had three the first time, and it was an eye-opening experience,” he said. “I try to tell them it’s not for everybody, but you signed on, so stay for two weeks, tough it out.”
“There are going to be some keepers out of the first batch, we’ll see on this one,” he added.
DeCota said the KBIC and community have been supportive of the Beartown crew, and asked that people keep the firefighters in their thoughts as they risk their lives on the fire lines.
————————————————————
Interesting to read that ( as of last year, anyway ), the CREW BOSS for this “Beartown” Type 2 Crew ( Doreen Blaker ) is ALSO a ( quote ) “KBIC tribal council member and court defense advocate”.
Maybe SHE will be serving as Michael Allen Thompson’s LAWYER?
Apologies. ‘Brain Fart’ up above.
The man’s last name is ‘Johnson’… not ‘Thompson’.
Should have said…
“Michael Allen Johnson”
Followup…
As least one article that has appeared ( At Firefighter Close Calls eZine ) says that this “Beartown” Type 2 Crew wasn’t just ‘sponsored’ by the “Bureau of Indian Affairs”. It says it was JOINTLY MANAGED by that Indian Community AND the BIA.
That implies something much different than just a ‘contractor’ relationship.
Firefighter Close Calls
2 FIREFIGHTERS KILLED, 6 INJURED IN FIRE APPARATUS CRASH-MINNESOTA LODD
Published: August 27, 2016
http://firefighterclosecalls.com/2-firefighters-killed-6-injured-in-fire-apparatus-crash-minnesota-lodd/
From that article…
—————————————————————
We regret to pass on to you that two Firefighters traveling in a Michigan based fire vehicle were killed in the Line of Duty, and others were injured, following a crash this evening on Interstate 35W in Blaine, MN-while enroute to a fire in Utah. The fire transport vehicle contained 8 Firefighters. Initial reports are that the truck belonged to the Beartown Firefighters, a crew located on the south shores of Lake Superior in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula that specializes in fighting wildfires.
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community in cooperation with the Bureau of Indian Affairs manages this Type 2 Wildland Firefighting handcrew. The Firefighters are based out of Baraga, MI. and are available for dispatch locally as well as nation-wide.
It is jointly managed by the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community and the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA).
The Firefighters were on their way to the Box Canyon wildfire in Utah. Our condolences to all those affected. More to follow. RIP.
—————————————————————-
It is JOINTLY MANAGED by the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community and the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA).
There is a difference with Jointly Managed.
Managed is Similar to what I did with 3 Spanish American Type 2 FF Crews
From the Sawtooth. They were Contract Crews However we Supplied all their Equipment Clothing and Safety Hard Hat Etc.. Training and did the Dispatching from our office.
We also insured fully Qualified Crew Bosses and Paid to send them to Training Courses. We put all through the 40 Hr. FF course annually.
They were not Hired Government Employees but Contract AD FF.
That would be what I would Call Jointly Managed.
The Indian Reservation put together a crew with Vehicles and the BIA
carried them on their roster as a Contract Type 2 Crew also paying Mileage on the Crew Carriers By putting them under Equipment Contract
Similar to Busses.
So who is supposed to do an investigation if these ‘managed’ Wildland firefighters DIE while they are ‘on the clock’?
No one?
If on a Fire the Fire.
Driving down a State Highway with Non Government Equipment
even with people on board being Paid by the ordering unit..
They are in Travel Status but Maybe the BIA or just the State Police. It is out there in no mans land I have never dealt with this type of accident.
Thanks for ‘sticking with this’ for the moment, Bob.
I’m just trying to figure out what the ‘relationships’ really are here with the BIA and this “Beartown” Type 2 Crew… and who is SUPPOSED to be doing what with regards to ‘investigating’ this loss of Wildland Firefighters.
It is suddenly dawning on me that we might be looking at the same sort of ‘jursidictional soup’ that would have emerged if, instead of actually DYING in Yarnell… all 19 of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had been killed in a horrific accident on June 30, 2013 somewhere around ‘Skull Valley’… while they were still DRIVING to the fire.
There would still have been no doubt that Granite Mountain was ‘on the clock’ ( already ) and ‘in transit’ to that Arizona Forestry ‘workplace’ in Yarnell…
…but if they had died just ‘on the way there’… would ANY ‘Agency’ have launched ANY kind of ‘investigation’?
The FEDS ( USFS ) would have still said… “Yes… we recognized them as a Nationally-available Type 1 Hotshot Crew… and Yes… they have been CERTIFIED as such at the Federal level… but we disavow any ‘ownership’ or ‘management’ of this Type 1 Crew and so no investigation is required on our part”.
And Arizona Forestry might have said… “Yes… they were ‘on the clock’ for one of OUR ‘workplaces’… but since they didn’t DIE here on the fire… we have no obligation to figure out what the hell happened to them”.
In a sense… this “Beartown” Unit might share the same ‘limbo status’ as Granite Mountain.
Available NATIONALLY… and AFFILIATED with ‘Federal Level’ Agencies ( GM=USFS Beartown=BIA )… but since they are actually ‘municipally owned’ then the ‘Agencies’ have NO responsibility to apply NIFC Interagency Investigation Standards and lift any fingers to figure out why the DIED.
More later.
Turns out this ‘Doreen Blaker’ woman who is BOTH the ‘CREW BOSS’ for this “Beartown Crew” AND ALSO a member of the actual Keweenaw Bay Indian Community Tribal Council isn’t just ANY member of the ‘Council’.
She is the actual TREASURER for this ‘Tribal Council’… in a place where millions and millions and millions of dollars of annual income are being reported coming from TWO different CASINOS owned and operated by this ‘Tribe’.
WTKTT,
Exactly. It’s the ol’ commercial liability ‘hot potato.’ In the case of GMIHC perishing while traveling to a fire, I suppose the actual sponsoring agency (city of Prescott) would handle the investigation (wouldn’t THAT have been a hoot!) In Beartown’s situation, I suppose the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community should be the investigating party? Ouch, hot potato! Catch!
Woodsman
Interesting question to ask is…
With all this ‘Interagency Agreement’ and ‘Interagency SOUP’ on the boil… if the ‘owning Agency’ ( Municpal or otherwise ) determines they are not CAPABLE of conducting their OWN proper ‘Investigation’ into fatalities involving these ‘Agency certified’ resources…
…then can they just do their own ‘Delegation of Authority’ and ‘punt’ that UP to the next highest level Agency?
Just like Arizona Forestry did with the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation?
Arizona Forestry did NOT conduct that SAIT which actually investigated the deaths of their OWN ‘contracted employees’ in their own ‘State Forestry’ workplace.
Arizona Forestry realized they weren’t even ABLE to conduct a proper ‘investigation’ and so they issued a ‘Delegation of Authority’ to do the investigation to a combined NIFC and USFS ‘put together’ team of investigators.
So… in the scenario above where the responsibility to do an ‘investigation’ might have fallen back to ‘The City of Prescott’ itself… could THEY have done the same thing Arizona Forestry did and just ‘Delegated the Authority’ for that up the chain?
Could the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community ( KBIC )… or whoever the hell really DOES ‘own’ this Nationally-available Type 2 “Beartown” Crew also do the same thing?
Issue their OWN ‘Delegation of Authority’ to get some people who ARE capable of doing an investigation of ANY kind to just go ahead and do it?
You said it with ‘hot potato’.
What if this KIBC actually WANTS someone to do an ‘Agency Level’ investigation and WANTS to issue a ‘Delegation of Authority’… but then we get to see these ‘affiliated’ agencies all REFUSING to touch it.
This could actually get ‘really weird’.
And since it is currently the ‘Elephant in the Room’… I might as well use the ‘WDL’ words(s).
“Wrongful Death Lawsuits”
Even from what is just in the original ‘criminal complaint’… it appears that the families of the two deceased firefighters have every right in the world to proceed with that kind of ‘Civil Litigation’.
There was only one ( fatigued ) man behind the wheel of that Carrier…
…but who was ALLOWING him to be there, driving that Crew Carrier, in that ‘condition’?
And in the “It’s a SMALL WORLD” category…
Here is a PUBLIC Instagram post made yesterday by none other than ‘Alan Sinclair’… from the actual “Keweenaw Bay Indian Community” there in Michigan…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJy4AuMAUwG/
His only ‘comment’ on that PUBLIC posting he made is…
——————————————
alansinclair13 – 1 day ago
Location: Keweenaw Bay Indian Community
11 likes
Beautiful sunset tonight, honored to be here. #honoring #beartownfirefighte
——————————————
Alan Sinclair is, of course, all of the following…
1. Eric Marsh’s old friend.
2. One of author John Maclean’s ‘researchers’ for the book MaClean is writing about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
3. A ‘consultant’ of some sort for the ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum that just finished its ‘principal photography’ phase in New Mexico.
4. The father of Ethan Sinclair… who has already been ‘filmed’ playing one of the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ in this same ‘fillum’.
5. The ‘Incident Commander’ for the recent Yarnell Hill ‘Tenderfoot’ fire in June of this year.
6. The CURRENT ‘Incident Commander’ for the ‘Southwest Area Incident Management Team’ ( SWA IMT ) – TYPE 2 – TEAM 3.
https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dispatch_logistics/overhead/imt/Rosters/SWA_ROSTERS_Type_2_Team_3.pdf
Alan Sinclair has also ‘bounced around’ a LOT in his career between various positions with the “Bureau of Indian Affairs’ ( BIA )and the “Bureau of Land Management” ( BLM ).
So he very well could have simply KNOWN some/all of these BIA ‘sponsored’ “Beartown” Type 2 crewman… and he might just be there on his own time and his own nickel just paying his ‘respects’.
There is no indication that he’s there on any kind of ‘official’ business related to the BIA and/or the incident itself… but given his ‘connections’ back to Arizona… it falls into the “It’s a small world” category.
The only other conclusion I can reach is any type of investigation may be waiting for the Toxicology report from Johnsons Blood which would indicate if he was under the influence of Narcotics which would then make it a Farley simple finding.
The sending unit would have the final responsibility in my estimation.
There should be some kind of a investigation by the BIA or BLM Maybe there is something going on not of the Magnitude of a SAIT. We just have not herd any thing on it as of yet.
Gary Olson.
Can we meet. If we drive out. I know surgeries first but I want to meet wwtktt and Gary…I think for me the time has arrived. Gary, when is this book due out because I think you may rewrite the title once we meet. I cannot begin to tell you how well God orchestrated the people to show up on im from you to bob to sonny to diane…etc…of course woodsman is another i think would like to know what i know….it would be almost brilliant for their to be a im wrap party like the movie folks did except with us we are not pocketing a penny but by being in person you can grasp the magnitude that I wish I could shout out…I need you all here really but start with gary for his background and wwtktt for his ai abilities and john…we do have to catch up…at some point
Joy,
Thanks for the mention. You’re right, I would like to know what you know. Good call on going to Gary, WTKTT, & John first – they are your best team in my opinion. Take care of yourself. Hope you’re feeling better soon.
Woodsman
I have already pulled another in…
In private…
Plus I have it all over the usa my search for a fire behavior analysis expert who would be fully checked out before information hit their ears and signed a confidentiality contract…
I know not only people who lost a loved one or people who lost a home or people who ignorantly received accolades and awards and bonuses and people who got time and half to ensure food on the table and I know people like Donut would profit alot from my details that he can do whatever the hell he wanted in life…so really Woodsman the news wouldnt be just something you wish you knew because after hearing it…you will wish you did not know in some sense…you will wish someone who had the depth to make it collapse knew…but we all can do that…but say I said it right here on here and all it does is give the ones the channels to manipulate and make stuff vanish…if I vanish I told the right folks all my accounts…
I do wish I learned it later vs now but God has the plan so might not be my ideal time to ? it but He will share to me what next…
Joy,
I will find out the truth in due time and it won’t be for my own satisfaction, it will be for maximizing my ability to keep those I’m in charge of out of harms way. The absolute truth should be used by all wff to improve the way we operate & serve the public. The survivors of GM that want the truth deserve the truth as well. You mentioned my name so I responded in appreciation. Take care of yourself, write in all down, save multiple copies in different places, and tell Olde Codger Olson – that will ensure what needs to be done is done.
Woodsman
In my way of thinking God’s Plan sounds like Willis talking. My Irish Goddess and God gave you a brain. Now use it because they don’t have the time to be fucking around watching every little move you make.
Remember it was a snake that convinced Eve to eat that apple, but it had a worm in it. She could have ate it without his advice, but that God blamed the snake and Eve for not using their brain. So according to that account he designed the women so they have hell in child birth. What a fucked up way to do things==and all Eve wanted to do was have a tasty apple.
Certainly there are other intelligent beings in the universe. That holy water works and most religions work==especially to explain away some nasty incidents that happen. Gods will, bull shit stuff. Any God that sanctions killing 19 is fucked up in the head. Pol Pot and Hitler mentality. These God freaks become animals when they assume control. My daughter is a Roman Catholic, and I too came from an Irish Catholic background. But truth is some of those early Popes and their minions slaughtered thousands of innocent people. But the Protestants have not done much better laying people in stocks and burning them at the stake as well.
Still I have had some strange experiences with some things. One guy I was stuck with as a roommate told me of this entity he had inside. Hell, I was so impressed that this man might cut my throat because this entity did not like me that I consulted a priest. I liked this old priest who wore a red beret and red socks to match and was a bit of a character. He instructed me to get a vial from the pharmacy and I did and he did bless it so I had this vial of holy water. I commence to spill some on this guy and his sheets and I was surprised to hear the sheets sizzling. What the hell, it worked cause next thing I knew he was moving out the very next day. But then I believe in flying saucers, abductions and other phenomenon as well–having had experiences along those lines as well. Religion appeases the masses–If you like the Priest have a few swallows of the dew of the Gods, then it will help you to stomach the greater part of it.
One of my favorite priests was the Jesuit Art Burns, an old Irish bloke. I even went to church once when he was dressed in that grey monk outfit. He loved his ice cream and I had lots of personal visits with him. He knew Shakespeare so I asked him once where in the works of Shakespeare was the line “Celia, Celia, thou shittest too!” He told me he thought there was no such line. But it is a good line.
I heard Art passed some time ago in Minnesota–slipped on the ice.
The comprehensive book named THE WILD FIRE READER-A CENTURY OF FAILED FOREST POLICY by George Wuerthner, gives some great insights into attitudes, methods and crontrovercial policies and thinking about the wild fire situation. But, Joy and I have concentrated on the local deaths of firemen and concerns of how these men were sacrificed to the fire Gods.
Quoting from the book, p.98-
“Unfortunately, the public has been led to believe that modern firefighting techniques and equipment can control fires. This is true under ordinary fire conditions; however, when drought and wind coincide, the best fire fighters can do is to get out of the way. Close scrutiny of media and official reports shows that the majority of big blazes are contained when weather conditions change. One Yellowstone firefighter unwittingly revealed this connection when he noted in his official report on a fire fought in the 1930’s: ‘Finally got the fire under control–had a hell of a time breaking camp in the rain’.”
The Yarnell report by Wooten and Morrison correlates with that when they inform us that the Yarnell Fire was releasing energy at the level of a Hiroshima type A-bomb every 15 minutes.
It behooves us to understand with all this knowledge of how dangerous and how absolutely useless it is for a few men to engage a raging wild fire of the magnitude of the Yarnell manzanita fire. Surely the men that set this 320 acres aside as an extremely dangerous and restricted fire hazard on June 16, 2013 had this knowledge and must have known the futility of allowing any hot shot crew to attempt to engage and even slow such a juggernaut of a fire. They must have known, as the author of the aforementioned book knew, that the correct action is to above all things keep your men safe–preferably here in the black among the boulders where Eric Marsh was much of the morning and where the men had only a few yards to retreat to.
This whole affair makes me think we have a number of chiefs that need to be Indians.
But there is more to the story–from the book you will see that there is policy within the forest service that lightening strikes, being a natural cause, ought to be treated with hands off–allowed a chance to clear the land. How much of this attitude bleeds over into the Yarnell incident is yet unknown. But what is known was the lackadaisical attitude toward quickly extinguishing this fire by three fire departments, the state, the forestry service, and perhaps even a billionaire rancher who is said to have a plane loaded with retardant and on notice for lightening strikes at a moments notice.
Despite the millions spent on retardants, equipment, wild land fire fighting crews, and all that goes along with the big business of wild land fire fighting, the Yarnell Fire went right on through Yarnell like gang busters. The book by Wuerthner and the professionals Wooten and Mortenson’s predictions and evaluations of wildfires are spot on. How dare it be that 19 have died the most horrific death imaginable with this knowledge availble before the fire.
correction–Joy reminds me that was Wooten and Morrison –not and Mortison–sorry Morrison–that was an excellent work you fellows from Washington U and I wondered how quickly you came up with all the stats on this fire and got that report out. You fellows must have had a lot of prior knowledge to do that so well done and so soon–even the exact percentages of state vs BLM lands and private with stats on home losses.
BTW, looked into buying “WildfireReader” and it’s $45! Must be a textbook. Need to find a used copy…
Sonny said, “But there is more to the story–from the book you will see that there is policy within the forest service that lightening strikes, being a natural cause, ought to be treated with hands off–allowed a chance to clear the land. How much of this attitude bleeds over into the Yarnell incident is yet unknown.”
Even natural fires will eventually run into the WUI, so we need to find ways to manipulate the fire to avoid those areas while allowing fire to fulfill its necessary functions. Robert Powers discussed those in the last chapter, including a theoretical scenario for Yarnell, as well as a successful real life one for Lowman. The problem is that these actions require focus, planning, and understanding of the objectives. It seems that YHF was all about getting all the local guys a few extra hours, maybe some siggies in their little books, and a justification for next year’s budget. I doubt there was any thought about natural process. Air attack proved that.
Of course, we can do prescribed burns and other fuel reductions during the off season, whatever works. But we have to decide what we need to do and do it, without the bells and whistles and theater we seem to depend on now.
Muzzy, I think all you said is true but there is more to the story as well. This is where some individuals of Gary’s ilk and are indeed needed in the equation.
**
** UPDATE: BIA TYPE 2 “BEARTOWN” FATALITIES
Within the last 24 hours, an ‘Incident Page’ has been created at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center for the recent BIA Type 2 Crew ‘rollover’ accident which killed 2 BIA firefighters and put the others in that Crew Carrier into the hospital ( some with SERIOUS injuries ).
But there is still NO SIGN that any kind of ‘Agency Investigation’ ( of any kind, SAIT, CRaP, AI or any other level of investigation ) is either planned or in progress for this FATAL incident.
NOTE: Less than 2 months ago, when there was a similar ‘rollover’ accident in Nevada which killed two BLM firefighters… a SAIT was launched IMMEDIATELY to determine the cause of the accident AND look for “Lessons Learned”.
The new ‘Incident’ page for the BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Crew fatalities is here…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=f14b6ce9-2ee0-4940-b311-fa132f012940
There is only ONE document there, and it is simply a ‘Notification’ document published not by BIA… but coming from the “U.S. Fire Administration”, and that one document doesn’t even mention the fact that the ‘Beartown Firefighters’ were co-sponsored by the Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ).
There is NO “Delegation of Authority” letter/notice.
There is NO “24 hour report”.
There is NO “72 hour report”.
And in case this ‘Incident Entry’ ends up ‘disappearing’… here is all it says at the moment…
———————————————————————————-
Beartown FD Crew Carrier Fatalities (2016)
State: Minnesota
Incident Type: Vehicle Incident or Accident
Incident Tag/KeywordDrivingFatalityHand Crews
Incident Date: 8/27/2016
[State]: Minnesota
[Date]: 08/27/2016
[Incident Type]: Vehicle Incident or Accident
Attachment(s)
pdf file – Beartown FD USFA Notification – 151K – 1 version
Uploaded – 08-30-2016
———————————————————————————-
And also… just in case that one-and-only ‘press release’ style document that IS there happens to ‘disappear’… here is all it says…
————————————————————————————-
USA Firefighter Fatality Notification
The U.S. Fire Administration (USFA) has received notice of the following firefighter fatalities:
Name: James Shelifoe, Jr.
Rank: Firefighter
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Status: Wildland
Years of Service: Pending
Name: Alan Swartz
Rank: Firefighter
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Status: Wildland
Years of Service: Pending
Date of Incident: 08/27/2016
Time of Incident: 1500hrs
Date of Death: 08/27/2016
Fire Department: Beartown Fire Department – Keweenaw Bay Indian Community
Address: 16429 Bear Town Road, Baraga, MI 49908
Fire Department Chief: CEO Larry J. Denomie III
Incident Description: Firefighters Alan Swartz and James Shelifoe, Jr. were killed when the fire
apparatus (crew vehicle) they were riding in on Interstate 35W near Blaine, Minnesota, crashed
into the median barrier and rolled a number of times.
Several other firefighters riding in the truck were seriously injured and transported to the hospital.
The firefighters, members of the Beartown Fire Department’s Type 2 wildland handcrew, were
on their way to work the Box Canyon Fire in Utah when the crash occurred. The fatal incident
remains under investigation by authorities.
Incident Location: Southbound Interstate 35W & 95th Avenue, Blaine, MN
Tribute is being paid to Firefighter Alan Swartz and Firefighter James Shelifoe, Jr. at
h t t p : //apps.usfa.fema.gov/firefighter-fatalities/
————————————————————————————-
Followup…
Now compare the above to these ‘announcements’ from back in July when that ‘similar’ rollover incident in Nevada killed two BLM firefighters.
A SAIT was launched IMMEDIATELY for THAT ‘rollover’ incident…
BLM Discusses Fatal Accident
Published: JUly 14, 2016 7:34 AM – By Steven Field
http://www.buckaroonews.com/2016/07/blm-discusses-fatal-accident/
From that article…
——————————————————————————-
Jessica Gardetto, Public Affair Specialist for the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) explains that on July 10th, a BLM Winnemucca District Engine Crew had just finished doing a routine check for fires after lighting, when they were involved in a single vehicle accident.
The crew were returning to Winnemucca from Denio in a Unimog, which is a large wildland fire engine.
Nevada Highway Patrol lists the accident as a single vehicle accident due to tire failure.
At this time the BLM is conducting its own investigation, through their
Serious Accident Investigation Team, which is still on going. One of the reasons for the additional investigation is to help accidents like this from happening in the future.
——————————————————————————-
Key phrase…
“At this time the BLM is conducting its own investigation, through their
Serious Accident Investigation Team, which is still on going. One of the reasons for the additional investigation is to help accidents like this from happening in the future.
This part is worth repeating…
“One of the REASONS for the ADDITIONAL INVESTIGATION is to help accidents like this from happening in the FUTURE.”
And then there was this ‘announcement’ coming from BLM itself about the immediate creation of a SAIT to look into this July, 2016 ‘rollover fatalities’ incident…
US Department of the Interior ( USDI )
Bureau of Land Management ( BLM )
NEWS RELEASE
BLM News Release No. WDO 2016-023
Memorial Service for Fallen Firefighters Jacob O’Malley and Will Hawkins to be
Held in Winnemucca on Tuesday, July 19th
Published: 07/14/16
Contacts:
Contacts: Jessica Gardetto, 208-957-1355, jdgardetto (at) blm.gov
http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/info/newsroom/2016/july/winnemucca_memorial.html
From that ‘official’ BLM press release…
————————————————————————-
Winnemucca, Nev. – Memorial services will be held for BLM wildland firefighters Jacob O’Malley and Will Hawkins who lost their lives in a single-vehicle accident July 10 on Nevada State Route 140. The services will take place at the Winnemucca Events Complex Exhibit Hall from 1:00 – 4:00 p.m. on Tuesday, July 19, in Winnemucca, Nevada.
The BLM firefighters were returning from duty in the Denio area on their way back to Winnemucca when the accident occurred at about 5:20 p.m. Sunday evening. Jacob, 27, and Will, 22, were killed in the rollover accident. Their coworker, Zachery McElroy, 23, was flown to Renown Medical Center in Reno, where he was treated and released Tuesday afternoon.
The BLM fire crew was returning from a routine patrol looking for lightning fires in the area when the accident occurred.
The BLM deployed a Serious Accident Investigation (SAI) team to determine the accident cause and other information.
Winnemucca Events Complex
1000 Fairgrounds Road
Winnemucca, NV 89445
————————————————————————-
“The BLM deployed a Serious Accident Investigation (SAI) team to determine the accident cause and other information.”
So where is the SAIT for the most recent BIA Type 2 “Beartown” crew ‘rollover’ fatalities?
As per their own ‘Wildfire Operations Manual’… ( and as per the ‘Redbook’ Interagency Standards )… BIA is under the same ‘Investigation’ responsibilities as BLM.
WTKTT,
It occurs to me that one difference between the two cases is that in the NV incident, the driver died, while in the MN incident he survived and is facing charges.
Muzzy appears to have this figured correctly, Seems the old firefighters went immediately after the fire to get it out. Norb, having bossed two wild land crews and retired from that now, says he often preferred working fires during the night due to cooler temperatures. He said that just because it was an evening lightening strike at Yarnell, that gave no excuse for letting the fire go.
I do know the local fire departments are Johnny on the spot when it comes to a campfire. After the Yarnell catastrophy, Joy and I were camped some months in the Desert south of Yarnell a few miles. The place was very inaccessible, yet when some yahoo reported our smoke (the weather was wet), the local fire department wasted no time in looking us up. Yet in the most dangerous time when extreme conditions with that 320 acres already declared deadly serious fire danger, no local fire department bothered with the lightening strike smoke. Well you could see us through binoculars off 89 and see we were campers (there for some months). You could also see the lightening strike–but then you can’t fuck with God–right? Due diligence was made on one hand, and on the other hand where most needed was not. The tax payer needs a damn good explanation as to why Sonny and Joy were singled out, yet the most extremely dangerous situation was not addressed .
Reply to Muzzy post on September 1, 2016 at 3:40 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> It occurs to me that one difference between the two cases is that in
>> the NV incident, the driver died, while in the MN incident he survived
>> and is facing charges.
Well… SOMETHING is definitely ‘different’… since regardless of the fact that they were BOTH ‘rollovers’ involving ‘Wildland Agency’ vehicles… and they BOTH resulted in the same number of DEATHS ( 2 )… the one in July had a ‘SAIT’ in place immediately… and the other one ( still ) does NOT?
So yea… I’m struggling to figure this one out.
I don’t see how whether or not a ‘driver’ survived should make ANY difference as far as the codified ‘Interagency Standards’ for REQUIRED investigations goes.
Obviously a FINAL report might have to reflect the results of any local law enforcement ‘investigations’ that were also conducted with relation to the ‘fatalities’… but that still doesn’t negate the codified ‘Agency requirements’ for INITIATING the standard ‘SAI’ and/or ‘CRP’ investigation(s).
From the 2016 ‘Redbook’ ( NIFC Interagency Standards Document )…
2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations
Department of the Interior ( Bureau of Indian Affairs – BIA )
Bureau of Land Management
National Park Service
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Department of Agriculture ( U.S. Forest Service )
https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/redbook/2016/RedBookAll.pdf
PDF page 349( of 462 pages )…
———————————————————————-
Investigations
Investigations are detailed and methodical efforts to collect and interpret facts related to an incident or accident, identify causes (organizational factors, local workplace factors, unsafe acts), and develop control measures to prevent recurrence.
Distinct types of incidents and accidents have SPECIFIC INVESTIGATION REQUIREMENTS…
Wildland Fire Incident and Accident Types and Definitions
1. Serious Wildland Fire Accident
An unplanned event or series of events that resulted in DEATH, INJURY, occupational illness, or damage to or loss of equipment or property. For wildland fire operations, a serious accident involves any of the following:
– One or more FATALITIES;
– THREE or more personnel who are inpatient HOSPITALIZED as a direct
result of or in support of wildland fire operations;
– Property or equipment damage of $250,000 or more; and/or
– Consequences that the Designated Agency Safety and Health Official
(DASHO) judges to warrant a Serious Accident Investigation.
———————————————————————-
Following what ‘defines’ the various ‘Incident and Accident Types’ and their criteria the very next page then has a CHART which shows what kind of ‘Investigation Type’ is then REQUIRED for each of the ‘Incident Types’…
PDF page 350 ( of 462 pages )…
———————————————————————–
Investigation Types and REQUIREMENTS.
An incident that meets the criteria of: Serious Wildland Fire Accident REQUIRES: A Serious Accident Investigation ( SAI )
NOTE: For USFS only – Substitute Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP)
SAI Required Notification Level: National
SAI Management Level: National
————————————————————————
Unlike SOME of the less serious ‘accident types’ defined in the Standards, there is NO ‘management discretionary’ component/options there for this most serious of all the ‘Accident Types’.
If the ‘Incident’ meets the established criteria for a ‘Serious Accident’ ( as defined in the Standards document ) then a ‘Serious Accident Investigation’ ( SAI ) is REQUIRED.
Also notice above that in this 2016 document… a new NOTE has been added to this part of the Standards document which now says that ONLY the US Forestry Service is allowed to ‘substitute’ a ‘CRP’ investigation for an ‘SAI’ investigation.
Since the new NOTE in the 2016 ‘Redbook’ about being able to ‘Substitute’ the new ‘CRP’ protocol for the standard ‘SAI’ protocol… it appears that ( as of now, anyway ) ALL other ‘Wildland Agencies’ ( BLM, BIA, NPS, etc. ) MUST still use the standard “Serious Accident Investigation” ( SAI ) protocol.
And even though the ‘Department of the Interior’ and its Wildland ‘Agencies’ ( National Park Service, Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc. ) all ‘adhere’ to the same NIFC ‘Standards’ shown above…
…if you actually ‘drill down’ on the ‘Bureau of Indian Affairs’ websites into their own ( published) ‘Wildfire Operations Manual’ and then down to their OWN ‘published’ Standards… you find the exact same thing with regards to WHEN they are REQUIRED to initiate a “Serious Accident Investigation”.
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Wildland Fire Operations Manual
Chapter 17 – Reviews and Investigations
http://www.indianaffairs.gov/cs/groups/xnifc/documents/text/idc013077.pdf
On PDF page 10 of ‘Chapter 17’ of that BIA ‘Wildland Fire OPS Manual’…
————————————————————————–
Wildland Fire Incident/Accident Types and Definitions
Serious Accident Investigation ( SAI )
An unplanned event or series of events that resulted in death, injury,occupational illness, or damage to or loss of equipment or property.
A serious accident would involve any of the following:
– One or more fatalities;
– Three or more personnel who are inpatient hospitalized as a direct result of or in support of wildland fire operations;
– Property or equipment damage of $250,000 or more; and
– Consequences that the DASHO judges to warrant a Serious
Accident Investigation
—————————————————————————
And ( correspondingly ) here are the EXACT SAME codified ‘Investigation Requirements’ in that BIA document as are found in the 2016 ‘Interagency Standards’ document…
On PDF page 8 of ‘Chapter 17’ of that BIA ‘Wildland Fire OPS Manual’…
—————————————————————————
Investigation Types and REQUIREMENTS.
An incident that meets the criteria of: Serious Wildland Fire Accident
REQUIRES: A Serious Accident Investigation ( SAI )
SAI Required Notification Level: National
SAI Management Level: National
—————————————————————————
The ONLY difference between the 2016 ‘Interagency Standards’ document and this BIA ‘Wildland Fire Operations Manual’ is the absence of the new NOTE in the 2016 Interagency document which now says that ONLY the Agency known as ‘US Forestry’ is allowed to substitute the new ‘CRP’ investigation protocol for the established ‘SAI’ investigation protocol, if there has been an ‘Incident’ that meets the criteria of a ‘Serious Accident’.
So BOTH the 2016 Interagency Standards document ( which includes USFS, BLM, NPS, BIA, etc. ) and the actual ‘specific’ BIA ‘Wildland Fire Operations Manual’ have the EXACT SAME ‘language’ defining both a ‘Serious Accident’… and the fact that every single one REQUIRES either an ‘SAI’ or a ‘CRP’ ( USFS only ) investigation…
And… the standard SAI and the newer CRP protocl ( USFS only ) BOTH have the same ‘defined procedures’…
– First… an ‘Incident Notification’ document. Release level: National
– Then… a ’24 Hour Report’ Incident summary. Release level: National
– Then… a ’72’ Hour Report’ with more detail. Release level: National
– Then… a ‘Final Report’ ( within a timeframe ). Release level: National
So yea… I’m struggling to figure out WHY a ‘rollover fatality’ incident ( with BLM related ‘Agency’ fatalities ) back in July appears to have been following correct ‘procedure’… and an ‘SAI’ was initiated IMMEDIATELY ( as REQUIRED )… yet there is no sign of any similar ‘SAI’ having been initiated for the ( similar ) ‘rollover fatality’ that happened just recently ( with BIA related ‘Agency’ fatalities ).
Same number of fatalities ( TWO )… with the more recent one ALSO meeting the ‘SAI’ criteria for number of ‘survivors’ admitted to hospital… and equivalent ‘destruction’ of an ‘Agency vehicle’.
If the ‘Agency’ involved ( BIA ) is going to just IGNORE its codified responsibilities for this recent ‘Incident’ ( which so obviously meets the established criteria for a ‘Serious Accident’ )… then what DOCUMENT allows that… and on WHOSE AUTHORITY is this ‘Agency’ allowed to just willy-nilly ignore its responsibilities?
What does that say for the future?
Any ‘Wildland Fire Agency’ that ( supposedly ) participates in the ‘Interagency Standards’ is allowed to just ‘bow out’ anytime THEY like… just because they might not WANT to fully investigate why their employees are DEAD and/or LEARN anything from those DEATHS?
More “Interagency Standards are for Hillbillies… and we can just IGNORE them whenever we WANT to”… or something?
WTKTT said, “I don’t see how whether or not a ‘driver’ survived should make ANY difference as far as the codified ‘Interagency Standards’ for REQUIRED investigations goes.”
If the driver is subject to criminal investigation, I would imagine that other investigations would willingly take a back seat. No one would want to compromise the criminal investigation by gathering evidence from the scene or deposing witnesses. Once that investigation is complete, the evidence will be available to any other groups.
I hear what you are saying… but none of what you just said is justification for not INITIATING the ‘required’ Agency investigation itself.
There is NOTHING in the ‘codified’ regulations for INITIATING these ‘Agency’ investigations that says “Caveat: If someone involved is charged with a crime… then you don’t have to bother with all this SAI stuff”.
Who they are able to talk to… and when… and how that might interfere /clash with any other ‘ongoing investigation’ would all come out in the wash… but it’s not a REASON to just ‘postpone’ even STARTING it.
There’s supposed to be all of the following for ANY ‘SAI’…
– A Notification of the Incident ( distributed Nationally ).
– A ‘Delegation of Authority’ ( showing that the Agency recognizes its responsibility to investigate and has started that process ).
– A ’24 Hour report’ ( basic summary, distributed Nationally ).
– A ’72 Hour’ report’ ( more details… for SAFETY’S sake ).
Pretty hard to fulfill those ‘obligations’ detailed above if you just sit back and don’t even START the ‘Agency investigation’ process right away.
OTHER LIVES are always ‘at stake’ following such a tragedy.
Regardless of any ‘criminal charges’ that might end up attached to the ‘Incident’… the SOONER you can get the BASIC information out about what happened and how it relates to SAFETY… the better.
Example: The prosecutors MAY or MAY NOT look into the Agency related ‘work/rest’ guidelines. They MAY or MAY NOT have the ‘smarts’ to subpoena ALL RECORDS related to what that BIA ‘Beartown’ crew had been doing prior to the accident… and what their ‘work schedule’ actually looked like… before those records ‘fall down behind a filing cabinet’. What they MIGHT ( only ) do is focus on the man they have charged with a crime… and what HE was doing prior to the accident.
It could very well be that this ENTIRE CREW was ‘off the charts’ with regards to the Agency ‘work/rest’ rules and had been working as many hours as Granite Mountain had before prior to accepting that work assignment in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ( their normally scheduled day off ).
Even if they were technically still ‘within the 14 day limit’ ( like Granite Mountain was on June 29, 2013 )… they might have been working so many hours that they were all exhausted ( as most of Granite Mountain was the day they showed up in Yarnell ).
The ’14 day limit’ is based on DAYS. It is NOT based on ‘hours worked’. I don’t care who you are… if you have been punching the clock for double-shifts ( 16 hours a day and doing that kind of exhaustive manual labor for all 16 of those hours each time… with only 8 hours of rest each day ) after about 10 days of that you are ‘toasted’.
The ‘Agency’ doesn’t need to wait to see if the police even give a shit about any of that. They can make sure they are ‘preserving those records’ RIGHT NOW… without ‘interfering’ with anything the police are doing.
Another example: It’s also already been reported by a witness that ALL THREE of those ‘Beartown’ Crew Carriers were absolutely HAULING ASS and breaking the 70 mile per hour speed limit by more than 10 or 20 miles an hour just prior to the fatal accident.
Are the ‘police’ going to look into THAT aspect of this ‘Incident’?
Probably not… but the ‘Agency’ SHOULD.
Regardless of what happens with the one who was charged with a ‘crime’… there are quite possibly OTHER very serious “Lessons to Learn” here that would NOT normally come out of a County DA just trying to nail one guy to the wall for an ‘accident’.
That DA / Prosecutor doesn’t CARE about whether the ‘Agency’ learns any lessons from this, or not… or whether there is INFORMATION here that could save OTHER people’s lives.
All HE cares about is winning the case against the one single person he charged with a crime.
WTKTT,
I agree with everything you are saying, but, since Beartown is a tribal fire department crew in cooperation with the Bureau of Indian Affairs apparently not ‘BIA proper’, would they still have the same mechanism in place for an accident investigation? ie: SAIR, CRP etc?
Beartown is a part of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community not a federal crew.
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/content/beartown-firefighters
Woodsman
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
September 1, 2016 at 11:19 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I agree with everything you are saying,
>> but, since Beartown is a tribal fire department
>> crew in cooperation with the Bureau of Indian
>> Affairs apparently not ‘BIA proper’, would
>> they still have the same mechanism in place
>> for an accident investigation? ie: SAIR, CRP etc?
Well… that’s a ‘good question’, isn’t it.
Maybe the better question might be… is there actually ANY BIA Crew that can be considered ‘BIA proper’?
What does that really mean… ‘BIA proper’?
If the Bureau of Indian Affairs is ‘co-sponsoring’ an organization based on ‘Indian Land’… then how is that any different from a ‘Hotshot’ crew that is home-based on a National Forest being ‘sponsored’ by the US Forestry Service?
Seems to me that IF the BIA is going to try and throw this “Beartown” Type 2 Crew ‘under the bus’ and say that they were NOT ‘sponsoring’ this organization… then they better get to work and start taking a number of PUBLIC web pages down ( including the one you found )…
Keweenaw Bay Indian Community – Beartown Firefighters
http://www.kbic-nsn.gov/content/beartown-firefighters
——————————————————-
Beartown Firefighters
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, in cooperation with the
BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, manages a Type 2 Wildland Firefighting handcrew.
The crew is based out of Baraga, MI. and is available for dispatch locally as well as nation-wide. KBIC is
reaching out to neighboring tribes and communities to recruit firefighters for the upcoming fire season.
Links:
Bureau of Indian Affairs Safety Page
2012 Firefighter Application
————————————————-
If BIA actually does try to ‘disavow’ them and ‘throw them under the bus’… what kind of ‘message’ does that send to each and every OTHER Wildland Firefighting organization that they ARE ( also ) ‘sponsoring’?
Some sort of “Mission Impossible / Good morning Mr. Phelps” message?
“If you are CAUGHT ( fucking up )… the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of this relationship”
It all comes down ( like most things )… to the $$$ MONEY $$$… doesn’t it?
Somewhere in there… the term “BIA proper” just translates to “How much MONEY were the taxpayers paying to support this organization?”.
Did the ‘taxpayers’ buy the Crew Carriers?
Did the ‘taxpayers’ buy all the Fire Shelters and hand tools and helmets and other equipment?
Were the ‘taxpayers’ footing the bill for MOST of the ‘overhead’ for this crew… or was MOST of the overhead coming from the multiple GAMBLING sites that are known to be run by the ‘Keweenaw Bay Indian Community’?
That all remains to be seen / known.
Article Title…
Keweenaw Bay Indian Community approves UPGRADES at CASINOS.
Published: Wednesday, February 10, 2016
http://www.indianz.com/IndianGaming/2016/02/10/keweenaw-bay-indian-community-9.asp
From that article…
—————————————–
The Keweenaw Bay Indian Community in Michigan is moving forward with a $40 MILLION DOLLAR gaming expansion project.
The tribe will spend $28 million to build an entirely new Ojibwa Casino in Baraga.
Another $12 million will be spent to expand their OTHER gambling facility in Marquette.
“It’s going to be very modern chic is what I call it,” CEO Larry Denomine told Upper Michigan’s Source of the project. “They will feel nice; they will feel comfortable when they are in there.”
Tribal members approved both projects in an election last December.
—————————————–
They should be able to replace the destroyed Crew Carrier pretty easily… wouldn’t you say?
But maybe the ‘Beartown’ group really IS ‘BIA proper’ and they will still just hit up the taxpayers for the new ( replacement ) Crew Carrier.
“What does that really mean… ‘BIA proper’?”
I made that term up out of whole cloth…so I don’t really know what it means either (I was hoping you’d tell me haha)
Maybe I should have said: Is Beartown fire crew a US Dept of Interior Bureau of Indian Affairs organization OR some other organization? The “in cooperation with” part of the website of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community leads me to believe that Beartown is OTHER THAN a USDI BIA entity.
Woodsman
See new post above with a link to another article appearing at “Fire Fighter Close Calls” eZine.
It now goes so far as to say that this “Beartown” Type 2 Crew was/is being (quote) “JOINTLY MANAGED” by that KBIC Indian Community AND the “Bureau of Indian Affairs”.
That implies far more than just a simple ‘contractor’ relationship.
Only if they were on the fire scene.
The vehicles would be under Private Insurance Coverage. If they were in fact under contract
and not owned by BIA. All Contractors must Carrie their own Vehicle Insurance.
If they were ‘on the payroll’ for the ‘incident’ they had already been ‘hired’ for… then they were already ‘part’ of that ‘incident’.
Followup…
With regards to one of those ‘examples’ up above about WHY the ‘Agency’ investigation should be taking place ‘alongside’ whatever police investigation is taking place… I just thought I would point out that the ‘eyewitness report’ that ALL THREE of those BIA “Beartown” vehicles were HAULING ASS and going ( possibly ) upwards of 90 miles per hour just prior to the fatal accident is NOT coming from any ‘MEDIA’ article.
That ‘eyewitness’ testimony is in the actual CRIMINAL COMPLAINT itself.
Here is an online copy of the actual ‘criminal complaint’ filed against Wildland Firefighter and BIA ‘Beartown’ Type 2 crewmember Michael Allen Johnson…
https://bringmethenews.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/20160829_johnson-firefighter-michigan-crash-complaint.pdf
From the ‘criminal complaint’ itself…
—————————————————–
Statements were obtained from various witnesses traveling on Highway 35W at the time of the crash.
One witness described driving southbound on Highway 35W and seeing the THREE fire truck vehicles approaching him at a HIGH rate of speed.
The witness moved to the right lane of traffic to allow the vehicles to pass him.
The witness estimated the vehicles to be traveling approximately 80 to 90 mph in a 70 mph zone.
After the THIRD vehicle passed, the witness observed the THIRD vehicle swerve into the right lane of traffic approximately three times. The vehicle then swerved again traveling across the lane of traffic onto the right side of the roadway.
The vehicle attempted to correct itself but traveled back across the highway ultimately crashing into the barrier on the left.
The box separated from the cab and rolled several times.
Another witness described contacting 911 before the crash out of concern of the driving conduct of the vehicle.
This witness called 911 back after observing the crash and provided consistent details regarding the accident.
———————————————————–
So… since this ‘testimony’ is in the ‘criminal complaint’ itself… there is a high likelihood the prosecutor will focus on this as just one more piece of proof that Mr. Johnson was acting in a ‘reckless manner’ just prior to the fatal accident…
…but won’t be concerned about the fact that ALL THREE of those ‘Agency’ vehicles were ALL breaking the speed limit.
But THAT ( most definitely ) should be relevant to the ‘Agency’ investigation and what ITS ‘purpose’ is ( ‘Lessons to Learn’ and SAFETY issues ).
That an entire ‘convoy’ of ‘Agency’ vehicles was HAULING ASS and breaking the speed limit(s) by that much.
If that was SOP for that crew ( HAULING ASSm breaking speed limits )… then even if what actually did happen somehow did NOT take place that afternoon at 3:00 PM… there still could have been ANOTHER ‘fatal accident’ somewhere farther down the road that *might* have taken even more lives than just two.
An aspect of this case that is bizarre to me is that the second crew carrier, after one of them crashed, hit the median barrier, causing the box of the vehicle to separate from the chassis & rolled down the roadway killing/injuring occupants……the other crew carrier in the convoy JUST KEPT DRIVING on it’s way??? Huh?
‘Splain THAT one…
Woodsman
Yes… very confusing.
One article reported that the vehicles had become ‘separated’ by some distance before the accident… but the POLICE REPORT ( and the CRIMINAL CHARGES ) are quoting a witness as saying that just before the accident took place… all THREE of these “Beartown” vehicles went by him like “bats out of hell”… breaking the speed limit by ( maybe ) almost 20 miles per hour ( 90 mph in a 70 mph ).
And then there is still the “zip-tied in a gas station” video.
They ( the police ) were obviously ‘looking for drugs’ during that ‘stop’ of the other Crew Carrier.
More to learn here.
I told Joy this story and she did not believe it until she found it in my military records. Actually I was examined after that for abnormal psychological behavior in a military facility. Who after all wets down someone possessed with an entity with holy water? I have seen it in the movies and it worked there as well.
“One of the REASONS for the ADDITIONAL INVESTIGATION is to help accidents like this from happening in the FUTURE.” quotes:
Yet in the 19 deaths we did not have additional investigation, despite the obvious cover up and even after contacting FBI, EPA, and others. These men were in and out of state employees under FS, placing them under federal rules of investigations. Plainly their deaths were due to negligence. So what is the hold up?
Somehow those two previous comments got morphed. One was dealing with Jerry, the possessed guy and the other was from reading WTKTT’s comment on the two deaths–given outside investigation while 19 is swept under the carpet.
Well I do hope they get their 33 acres set aside and all the accolades the GMHS crew got–seems theirs was closer to an accident than the Yarnell incident.
The Michigan Firefighter driving the rig on Saturday is being charged with criminal vehicular homicide in that crash that killed two of his fellow Firefighters and injured several others on Interstate 35W in Blaine, Minn. As you know, the firefighters were on their way to the Box Canyon Fire in Utah.
The crash happened around 1500 hours on I-35W when the truck carrying the firefighters drifted off the right shoulder, struck the median cable barriers and rolled.
The Firefighter driving, identified as Michael Allen Johnson, 28, of Baraga, Mich. told cops that he believed he fell asleep behind the wheel and woke up to one of the Firefighters yelling at him as the truck veered off the road.
He attempted to gain control of the vehicle, but it crashed into the median barrier.
–Firefighter Johnson told cops he had been awake for nearly 28 hours when the crash occurred. He also admitted to smoking marijuana that morning and doing cocaine two days earlier.
Cops stated that Johnson appeared impaired and was acting combative at the scene of the accident.
23-year-old James “Kimmy” Shelifoe Jr. and 25-year-old Alan “AJ” Swartz, both of Baraga, were killed in the Line of Duty. The other 5 Firefighters were taken to local hospitals, but all are expected to recover.
They were part of a 3 fire vehicle convoy responding from Michigan’s Upper Peninsula to Utah to help fight the Box Canyon Fire. They were members of the Beartown Firefighting Crew in Baraga, Mich.
Firefighter Johnson is charged with two counts of criminal vehicular homicide for gross negligence. He will make his first court appearance in Anoka County on Tuesday morning.
Take Care. Be Careful. Pass It On.
In the actual CRIMINAL COMPLAINT that was filed against Michael Allen Johnson…. there is testimony from a WITNESS who was driving along that same highway who says that just before the accident… ALL THREE of those “Beartown” Type 2 Crew vehicles ( in convoy ) passed him going upwards of 90 miles per hour.
The speed limit was 70 miles per hour.
The Crew Carrier being driven by Johnson was the LAST one in the THREE vehicle convoy… and when it left the road… the other TWO “Beartown” vehicles did NOT STOP. ( Either because they weren’t aware of the accident… or they WERE… and chose NOT to stop ).
The police finally caught up with the other “Beartown” Crew Carrier ( the one that did NOT crash ) about 2 hours later in the parking lot of gas station somewhere down the road, near Bloomfield, Minnesota.
All of the “Beartown” fiefighters in that OTHER Crew Carrier were then ‘handcuffed’ ( with zip-ties ) and forced to sit on the ground outside that Crew Carrier while the police ( presumably ) ‘searched’ it. There is a video of police going through things on the hood of one their cruisers ( wearing purple gloves ) as if ‘looking for something’ ( drugs? )… while all the “Beartown” firfighters are sitting there on the curb with their hands zip-tied behind their backs.
It is still not fully clear if ANY of those ‘other’ “Beartown” firefighters in that ‘other’ Crew Carrier that was stopped some miles away from the accident scene were either ‘arrested’ and/or ‘charged’ with anything.
It is also still not known if that entire Crew was in violation of the NIFC Interagency ‘work/rest’ rules when they were ALL seen ‘speeding’ circa 3:00 PM and the fatal accident took place.
This chapter will most likely be the blogs final chapter….or will it…
Will people still find a need to have a place to go once I hire some special expertise and dig deeper
Will people join strong together once truth is out or will they hope someone else does the deed.
Im struggling this week health wise and relying on the elders of Congress to pull me through because I need it.
Someone said you and Sonny can never be over kaput and thats how it has rolled in the past and yet I need zero ughs and much near solid quiet “presence” to ensure I get thru…the fever n vomiting is too much. ..i can say I have stood by his bedside right next to him every second…he cannot say the same…he can say I have made dr appts on days he had appts so he is not out gas funds because the va pays his travel and I even choose same location so Im not making him drive even more…and he drove me technically but he too had appt.
I want to thank you for the education this week…im stubborn and seems easier to pack my backpack and hit the trails…but it took a long time to get these appts so best just get it done with…and thanks to a few here for today..
Seems easier to hide and walk away for some but I can say I know now too much and I will not prematurely spill it but do it well thought out and done right but it does suck to know it and then see the people i helped directly…i feel like a person withholding information but im not withholding forever just until some areas are complete.
Good luck in court today…
In the last chapter, Bob Powers expressed the following, “After a lot of thought I am at a loss as to what WTKTT is calling or identifying who is the NEW HYBRID FIRE FIGHTERS. Dose the Identification actually encompass all the City, County and State Fire Fighters or has there been a separation of different Cities, Counties and States ?
It seems that they are all being lumped together which is a show of ignorance about Wild Land Fire Fighters through out the Country.
Gary’s —Rise of the Hybrid Fire Fighters seems to have taken a new twist by WTKTT and now Woodsman’s references which are slightly different..”
I admit to some confusion myself, as it seems that, according to some here, we should beware the battalion Chiefs, but it seems that there are real WLFFs who are organized that way. Who knew? It can be very confusing to those of us not steeped in the alphabet soup of WLFF.
Maybe the answer is in something else Bob wrote:
Talking with an old friend of mine who spent the last of his Carrier as the Head of Training for the BLM at NIFC I learned a little a couple of weeks ago.
The Type 4 and 5 ICs were created in the system to appease the CITY FIRE DEPARTMENTS.
When home land security bought into ICS every thing changed.
So a Capitan on a Engine could be classed as a IC with out the S-courses that normally went with IC 3,2.1’s They wanted to insure the name went with the job did not have to be only WL Fire had to cover Structure fires. There lies the HYBIRD FF.
NOTE–a IC3 in the Federal system in the 90s was a basic crew boss and some times squad boss. Small fires from a tree to 10 Acres some times more but very seldom. You have from 1 to 15 people under you. They increased the IC3 level up to Sector Boss old—ICS STLD Strike Team Leader. then dropped the qualifications back to the IC 4 and 5 which is a small 1 to 3 resources fire.
Look at the makeup of the Yarnell Hill Fire and you have your answer why it went to hell.
The level of ability at the IC5. IC4, and IC3 are just not sufficient to deal with the complexity they had.
For me, it isn’t what FFs are called or what they do, but whether they are properly trained to work as part of a large team were it is critical to trust that each member knows his/her role. I am very concerned that local structural FFs are directing WLFFs when they have never done WLFFing themselves, and seem to value structure techniques and expectations over reality of wildfire. I’m thinking of whatever Willis was trying to do all day at the indefensible ranch, when he should have been using his resources to build line to protect Yarnell. It seems that so many of the entrapments, fatal or otherwise, happen when FFs forget that sometimes, you have to let the big dog eat, and empty buildings are replaceable. And it seems that the untrained or poorly trained ICs are a major contributing factor.
In addition to putting unqualified FFs in the midst of dangerous fires, the current system also appears to encourage locals to let fires get out of hand do they can get reimbursed for participating.
Mind you, I am only repeating what I read here, so I’d love to hear some clarity here.
You have a good grasp of the current program.
I am still fighting internally with my Gut when people say Fire Fighters are letting fire go or get out of hand to make money.
In my day and those around me we ran at fires full attack if we did not stop them we felt as if we did not do our job and hit the fire harder the next day.
We were under the Ten AM Policy. We were tasked with Controlling the fir By Ten AM the next day. That meant we through every thing we had at every start to put it out before the next burn period and each burn period after till we controlled the Fire.
Over 20 years Ago they removed that policy because of the pressure of the amount of fuel that was accumulating through out the west.
Thus you have the meager attack on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Along with no Night Fire Fighting in some terrains. I always said if it was dangerous at night why would it not be dangerous during the day. They said you could not see the danger and yet for over 25 years of my carrier we always Initial attacked fires 24/7. We always put in the most line at night and early morning when fire laid down.
I do not believe a Wild Land Fire Fighter lets a fire burn to make more money it is not in their make up. We were all hired to put fires out.
By the way they have been putting a lot of LINE in on the big fire here in Idaho AT NIGHT
Its hit 157,000 but they saved Lowman and another town. Its in old growth timber that in some areas has not burned in over 100 Years. We have some cooler air moving in so maybe they will get a break. Some fires just plane outperform expectations.
When the BIG DOG EATS you just have to do what you can and wait for it to lay down.
Bob Powers said:
“You have a good grasp of the current program.”
Good lord, I hope not.
In my mind, the best WLFFing is a zen thing, a large group of people acting as one, listening to the land and the wind and the fire, doing what they can with hand tools and their understanding to alter the movement of this enormous force. It requires skill, hard work, good timing, but most of all humility.
What I see in the insinuation of structure FFs into the WL and WUI is the wrong skills, little understanding of wilderness, and an alarming lack of humility. To ignore a hundred years of WLFFing experience and knowledge and insist that empty, indefensible structures can (and should) be saved from twenty foot flames with their feckless little hoses, is insanity. Now, WLFFs have to manage fire, the residents, AND their incompetent colleagues, some of whom may even be their superiors.
It seems equally alarming that even trained WLFFs who end up on a structure group get infected with this nonsensical attitude. It must be seductive to belong to a group where you get paid all year long, get benefits for yourself and your family, and get to use all this cool stuff. Fighting structure fires sure looks more scientific and technical than WLFFing, so it’s easy to believe that they can do anything. But this is not true. All this equipment is an impediment to movement and is useless to directly fight a WL fire. Wildland fire is a different animal from structure fires. Structures are designed to be fire safe, with 2 hour walls and required defensible space between them. Forests, especially since the era of complete suppression, are not. Former WLFFs employed in structure departments need to stick to their roots when they are on a WLF.
Bob also said, “I am still fighting internally with my Gut when people say Fire Fighters are letting fire go or get out of hand to make money.”
Well, how about if they don’t make any money at all if they go out under their volunteer force, but make actual money for themselves and their department under a state or national agency?
Bob also said, “In my day and those around me we ran at fires full attack if we did not stop them we felt as if we did not do our job and hit the fire harder the next day.
We were under the Ten AM Policy. We were tasked with Controlling the fir By Ten AM the next day. That meant we through every thing we had at every start to put it out before the next burn period and each burn period after till we controlled the Fire.”
As it should be now. The fire might not be controlled by 10, and data suggests that even now, fire behavior may not get extreme until later, but when some of these guys don’t even get to the fire before 10, it surely makes no sense.
Bob also said, “I do not believe a Wild Land Fire Fighter lets a fire burn to make more money it is not in their make up. We were all hired to put fires out.”
In your day, your goal was to fight fire, but you all were trained WLFFs. Now it seems just as likely that for some participants, let’s call them hybrids, additional goals are to get support for their departments and look important to the locals. Not a pure motivation, definitely not zen. For these guys, whatever you call them, it really is just a scam. They don’t understand or respect what WLFFs do, they think they’ll be able to defend their towns with their engines and whatever extra resources the prisons provide. If they just messed up their little part of the world, it would be bad enough, but their attitudes have been poisoning the whole process.
Bob also said, “When the BIG DOG EATS you just have to do what you can and wait for it to lay down.”
Yes.
I believe you hit the nail square on that one, Muzzy…
My old volunteer department went out (along with several neighboring departments) as a structure protection team with structure engines (which sometimes meant patrolling around and sleeping on the hose bed most of the day). It was the one of two things volunteers at the time got paid for (the other being movie standby).
Now, the overarching county department has its own “wildland team” made up of a youth crew (who, as soon as they come on board – as complete newbies – are treated by the department as some kind of elite crew for the 6 months a year that they are employed. They get hazard pay, overtime and of course, the department gets lots of money for the type6s, pickups and command vehicles. They convinced the political powers that this “elite crew” was so necessary that they paid for a full time crew of 10, on top of the temp youth crew. Now the fun really begins as they are being sent out of state. Some are getting kicked off fires out there, but no one hears about it….(they just got demobed early…) Volunteers are basically left with nothing and pretty much want nothing to do with it any more.
The quals systems previously was local.. not attached to ROSS at all. Now a lot of bogus info about these guys was placed in there, (by one guy – the wildland guy -oh no, we have no engine bosses, lets make this guy an engine boss so we can get wet rate… ) and suddenly it gets connected to state forestry’s quals system which IS connected to ROSS.
The whole system now gets bastardized by this.
At one time the wildland intent was for a fuels crew to work on public lands mitigating risk and starting prevention campaigns. Once they found out Prescott managed to get a team, all bets were off and the “we can do that too” shit started and spread like wildfire (sorry…) . I’m all for prevention activities and PUBLIC lands mitigation, but the competition heating up between municipal departments about who’s team gets sent out more is just a pissing contest and getting more ridiculous as time wears on.
None of them give a shit about Yarnell, and certainly DO NOT want to hear anything other than the official narrative of bullshit being spewed. Its all about the money, ego-boost and “coolness” of wildland, and which chief has the most experience bullshitting politicians and the public.
Wildfire65,
“The quals systems previously was local.. not attached to ROSS at all. Now a lot of bogus info about these guys was placed in there, (by one guy – the wildland guy -oh no, we have no engine bosses, lets make this guy an engine boss so we can get wet rate… ) and suddenly it gets connected to state forestry’s quals system which IS connected to ROSS.
The whole system now gets bastardized by this.”
Bingo! A stroke of the keyboard and their in! That’s why everyone wants a red-card and access to ROSS. Money, baby! There is the cool factor as well.
Has the enthusiasm for the local “wildland team” your speaking of been dampened in the wake of Yarnell or is it ‘full speed ahead’ on the fantasy team of elite badasses?
Thanks for your input.
Woodsman
full speed and then some ahead…
wildfire65,
So the fraudulent, fake-it-til-you-make-it, local fire dept wildfire teams, lining up to make the federal $$ cash cow is perniciously rampant across the country………great news!
Thanks for being of enough integrity to call it out honestly. That’s a step in the right direction.
Woodsman
Thank you all… now that I’m out of there, I’m actively trying to change it. At least I feel like you guys are behind me… sure as shit no one here is…..
Wildfire65,
I’d love to hear what you are doing to change things, if you think you could share without compromising your efforts.
Muzzy,
I’m looking to gather up like-minded instructors to teach youth who are interested in fire, and form a committee to meet yearly to review quals. Right now the only options they have here are joining a volunteer department (and getting taught by the structure guy, who is now the wildland guy), going to a community college for S130/190 (and I can’t begin to tell you about the geniuses that produces… ) or taking an online class and then going out behind someone’s station to dig a 30 foot length of line. I’m teaming up with an Rx council to get these kids to see and interact with live fire and hopefully at some point form crews for either contract rx burning or suppression. (which will hopefully provide competition for municpal crews).
I’m hoping instilling the right mindset into these kids will lead them into the agencies with a no bullshit attitude to eventually start making the changes needed.
Its a long term scheme… maybe doomed to fail… i don’t know, but I do know that I’m not going to sit back and do nothing.
WF65,
Whoa, sounds ambitious but totally doable, good on you! Rx burning seems as dangerous as summer fires used to be, now that fuels have built up. They’ll get real experience and benefit the community. As those kids interact at home, parents and family members can start to learn the reality of the scamming going on in their names and on their dime.
I firmly believe that the situation will not change until WLFF is completely separate from the muni departments. Sounds like a good start.
hey XXXFULLSAILXXX-
I bought your beer last week for the fellas-
I did it to recognize your time here on im because everyone matters!
Good info Wildfire 65–Thanks
Muzzy,
Your entire post is spectacular. I think it shows just how much good an impartial third-party review of wildland firefighting could contribute positively to our profession. Thank you.
Woodsman
Thanks, Woodsman,
Transparency would go a long way to cleaning this stuff up. Audits after the fact are great for assessing the value of techniques, etc., but if we could all just see where the bucks are going in semi real time, people would be more careful about their actions. Can you imagine what WTKTT would do with a mountain of payroll, overtime, and mileage data? Like a pig in poop!
Reply to Muzzy post on September 1, 2016 at 12:57 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Bob also said, “I am still fighting internally with my Gut
>> when people say Fire Fighters are letting fire go or get
>> out of hand to make money.”
>>
>> Well, how about if they don’t make any money at all if they
>> go out under their volunteer force, but make actual money
>> for themselves and their department under a state or
>> national agency?
Look no farther than Yarnell / Peeples Valley to see exactly THAT.
“Going out” via the “you sign my taskbook if I’ll sign yours” ICS and ROSS turnstyle-training way of firefighting is EXACTLY HOW these ‘volunteer fire departments’ actually RAISE MONEY these days in this ‘new world’ of “The Hybrid Firefighters”.
From the actual Peeples Valley Fire Department website…
http://users.commspeed.net/pvfdchief/
—————————————————————-
The Peeples Valley Fire Department started in September of 1993 when Bob Brandon and Jack Rauh recognized the Peeples Valley had no fire protection. The Congress fire department sold them their very first fire truck for a dollar, a 1953 ford structure truck. After a few minor repairs it was parked in front of Bob’s house with a sign that said “Volunteers needed!” The original volunteers that responded to the calls were Bob Brandon, Jack Rauh, Richard Harris, Raymond Harris, and Claud Ashby. Dispatch was handled at the Mountainaire Gas Station by Judy Garner.
Recognizing that they needed training, they contacted Southern Yavapai fire department Chief Larry Lefort for help. They took the PVFD volunteers in and equipped them with used turnouts, SCBAs and radios.
They ( Southern Yavapai Fire Department ) provided the necessary training for BOTH structure AND wild land fires, enough so that Peeples Valley formally adopted the name of Southern Yavapai fire department station 2.
In order to RAISE FUNDS for more equipment, they fought WILDFIRES for the Arizona state land department.
Eventually they recognized the need for independence and that is when they formally became Peeples Valley Fire Department. Many hours of volunteering by our community with bake sales, dances, horseback rides and garage sales got PVFD to where they are now.
Recently they purchased a new type 6 firetruck from a station in Oklahoma and renovated an existing PVFD firetruck. The station currently has THREE type 6 WILDLAND firetrucks, one watertanker, two structure trucks and a medical rescue rig.
——————————————————————–
It’s all about those ‘Type 6’ Engines.
Slap a water tank and some hoses on the back of your cousin Billy Bob’s old flatbed… and start ‘jobbing yourself out’ under ICS / ROSS as a ‘Wildland Crew’… and here comes the $$$$ MONEY $$$$.
Before you know it… you now have THREE ‘Type 6’ trucks and can ‘go out’ on even MORE ‘Agency Fires’ and make even MORE $$$$$ MONEY $$$$.
Forget the fact that the only Wildland training you ever got was from a local ‘Structural’ Fire Department.
‘Going out’ on the ‘Agency’ fires beats the heck out of asking the local City Council for more money ( which they don’t even have ).
The REAL $$$$ MONEY $$$$ is just sitting there waiting for you… by just doing whatever you can to meet the MINIMUM requirements for getting ‘on the lost’ to ‘go out’ on the ‘Agency’ fires.
Cha-Ching!
( And if someone ever does ask you to light a ‘backfire’ to try and protect Yarnell… and you end up burning down garages instead… just sit at a picnic table at the ICP 2 days later and lie through your teeth to the media and say that was caused by the ‘actual’ fire coming up over the ridge so fast there was nothing anyone could do ).
Whoops. Typo up above. I meant to type ‘list’… not ‘lost’.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
The REAL $$$$ MONEY $$$$ is just sitting there waiting for you… by just doing whatever you can to meet the MINIMUM requirements for getting ‘on the list’ to ‘go out’ on the ‘Agency’ fires.
Mr. Bob,
“I am still fighting internally with my Gut when people say Fire Fighters are letting fire go or get out of hand to make money.
In my day and those around me we ran at fires full attack if we did not stop them we felt as if we did not do our job and hit the fire harder the next day.”
You are one of the good guys, Bob. There are some that don’t have your sense of right and wrong when it comes to doing the job the taxpayers are paying us to do. A number of firefighters from all areas: fed, state, county, city, have intentionally set the wildlands on fire (arson) and their motives have varied from thrill-seeking, notoriety, financial gain, and others. Where opportunity presents itself, some become corrupt.
I agree with you on night ops. That fire in Montana so long ago (that I accused the IMT of letting it go) was unstaffed at night. Either they were 100% incompetent and their type 1 status was fraudulent or they let it go to pad their accounts and increase their sense of importance as they certainly had the resources for staffing. After hearing them smile about it, how their fire was “numba 1,” I sensed that they were happy it got big. It wasn’t nervous laughter either.
“I do not believe a Wild Land Fire Fighter lets a fire burn to make more money it is not in their make up. We were all hired to put fires out.”
Call me cynical, but letting a fire burn is easier to justify (safety!) as they didn’t start it in the first place making it quite convenient. There have been firefighters and fire managers that have set fire intentionally…hell, even a type 1 IC!!! Firefighter arson is more common than we think and most of us get uncomfortable even discussing it because it’s so sickening…but it happens.
I wish it was all as it should be like back in your time.
Woodsman
correction – I should have said, “after hearing them LAUGH about it” …I’m not good enough to hear someone smile.
Woodsman
I barbecued some ribs today–then worked on my chicken pen. some, trying to get some things done. I remember now, that I had expected to expire by November–the doctor from Yavapai Regional said my chances to make it to November were 10%. That is slim and none, on top he told Joy he did not like my attitude and I must have wasted his precious fucking time. Trouble was that I was sedated enough for ten days until Joy took me off life support, I did not even know I had a doctor. But now I have a new one, he is funny–Joy looks them all up and says he is a top dog. But I figure they do like a lot of fire bosses –award themselves a lot of stars to look good–buyer beware. But he will do. See I fell dead with a heart attack in the VA parking lot less than ten minutes after I had seen that Cardiologist and his intern. Well, no, they are not to blame, I had the attack, and the symptoms I was complaining about (chest pains, sleeping arm, shooting pain down the arm, etc,) come about after you already had stents put in. So when I had them again lately after 6 stents (they put two in after each attack), I checked myself out–I did not like the Arab Doctor–I am not prejudice, just suspicious. If you get too pushy, I worry. Hey, be bossey with me and I get worried right away. This guy had bad bedside manners. I am not a less than fellow just because you are piled higher and deeper–I am too.
So, this world keeps on turning–we do not have an inkling for how long. There are anomalies, I hope I am one and beat the deadline of November. Sympathy is between shit and syphilis and old Jim Ward would know that. He killed a couple fellows in his day, but then they had it coming the way he told it. He after all as a child came this way west in a covered wagon and like most old timers knew hard times. Good people but you did not mess with some of those old miners, well most that I ever knew. Strange they were, like my Dad, would give you the shirt off his back, but try to sneak up on him bush to bush or jump one of his mining claims and you likely would be looking down the barrel of a Winchester–and after machine gunner work in Germany WW1 I notice you would have had a good chance–he was a terrible shot–I thing the machine gun ruined his ability on a bolt action rifle. One Barnett, who had killed one Forest Ranger did not scare him. Dad said he shot that man in the back–he was screwing Barnett’s old lady but Barney caught him and got him on the run. He did two years in prison, then opted to jump one of Dad’s claims after he got out. He certainly backed down on that one and begged off saying he did not know. In later years, he got braver and again on Dad’s claims but this time Dad let loose on him and his partner. I was there with him so I know the truth–the only reason Barnett and Welsh got away was because Dad was a bad shot. Barnett went to the law, but it did’t help. Barnett in court said my Dad near gave him a heart attack. My Dad said yes he shit his pants all right. The court, even the judge laughed at that one.
The truth is sometimes hard to bear. But when you are dealing with kids and lives snuffed out because some one was both reckless and ignorant, then the situation and the truth must eventually surface. It is because future lives depend upon correcting a bad situation. Deaths like this do not happen by accident–situations create them–just as the two men lately killed because the driver was in a hangover situation and without sleep for 28 hours.
So far in the 19 deaths we have identified several factors that caused the deaths. But instead of admitting to the real causes, the Big Cheeses in this affair continue to play the hero game, sympathy game, and the cover all, it was a walk in the park accident game, God wanted these men, and other reputation saving games, including handing out awards, promotions, giving out Humvee’s, using a green horn as a smoke screen help, and so on until the simple truth which is no game comes out. This was a royal fuck up that needs a remedy–a jury and a jury of peers beside.
Do not give up hope, nor quit the good fight. America is strong as long as it remains good and proper. Games are fun yet not fun when they kill and when we see wrong as citizens, we have the duty to defend what is right.