Please begin Chapter XVII here:
Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV and Chapter XVI.
© Copyright 2015 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
“Joy a collura says DECEMBER 10, 2015 AT 6:41 AM
New chapter started
Thank you John”
Not only that, but:
“After years of delay, the Granite Mountain Hotshot autopsy records are released
DECEMBER 9, 2015 BY JOHN DOUGHERTY”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/after-years-of-delay-the-granite-mountain-hotshot-autopsy-records-are-released-to-the-public/
“InvestigativeMEDIA filed a public records request with the Yavapai County Medical Examiner on Nov. 18 seeking the autopsy and toxicology records while specifically stating that photographs were not being sought. Yavapai County released the reports a couple of days later.
One of the most potentially significant, but easily misunderstood, findings in the toxicology reports is the presence of alcohol in the blood of 13 of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots ranging from .01 to .09 percent. A person is legally drunk in Arizona at .08%. Another hotshot had several drugs in his blood, but no alcohol.”
I guess JD is still reading us, after all!
And here’s the link to the new chapter:
“Please begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XVIII here”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/
Reply to Woodsman post on December 9, 2015 at 1:26 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Listening to the exchange between ‘Granite Mtn 7′ and air attack is hard to listen to.
I know. You just want to jump into that airplane and scream
at John Burfiend… “ANSWER THEM, ASSHOLE!”
Burfiend was CHOOSING to NOT RESPOND to them… and only did so ( after an excruciating 2 minutes of 30 seconds of those men pleading with him to answer them ) when OPS1 Todd Abel finally ORDERED him to talk to them.
Then he sounded like he’d just been caught with his pants around his ankles and nervously responded with an “Oh… okay… Aye, aye sir!” tone to Abel.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The response from the pilot would probably prompt me to visit the airbase afterwards
>> to ‘ask’ him about it…..and that would probably be the day I got fired.
And also slapped with an assault charge? ( Just kidding, of course ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> In the video of them bouncing up the 2-track in the red UTV (where
>> they are obviously stressed and hauling ass to get to the deployment
>> site) there is a moment where a conversation starts and audio is DROPPED.
>> What was said at this point must be key information, IMO.
The ‘Aaron Hulburd’ video you are referring to is named M2U00273R.
It does, in fact, have the audio removed in TWO places… from 4:38-4:45 and from 5:03-5:20
The US Forest Service actually did claim an ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ as the reason for these ‘audio redactions’ and the REASON they gave ( in a letter to Mr. John Dougherty, the original FOIA requestor of this material ) is because at that moment, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd were trying to call their wives to tell them THEY were ‘ok’… and some cellphone numbers were in the audio.
USFS said the reactions were “to protect the discussion of a personal telephone number.”
The audio that remains backs this up.
Just before the redactions, we DO hear KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell asking Aaron Hulburd…
“Have you called your wife yet?”
And that that DOES appear what they proceeded to do. Call out phone numbers ( audibly ) so Hulburd could dial up the wives because Yowell was driving.
This was all established in the FOIA response letter Mr. Dougherty received.
Mr. John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA was the one who first made the FOIA request direct to the Prescott National Forest for ALL relevant photos and videos that ANY Prescott National Forest employee might have taken while working at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
THAT request is the one that eventually led to the USFS finally releasing all the other videos taken by PNF employee Aaron Hulburd when he was ‘working’ the Yarnell Hill fire along with fellow PNF employees Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Arizona Forestry published the long-hidden material FIRST, on their own website, with a blurb at the bottom of their online page saying…
“Arizona State Forestry has not received any identifying or clarifying information from the Forest Service.”
However… when USFS finally got around to fulfilling John Dougherty’s ORIGINAL FOIA request… there was “identifying and clarifying information” included in the letter that USFS supplied to Mr. Dougherty along with the requested material.
Mr. Dougherty published a copy of that ‘letter’ he received at the following link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/usfs-foia-response-yarnell-videos-11-7-14.pdf
The FULL TEXT version of the content of that letter from the USFS is as follows…
———————————————————————————-
United States Department of Agriculture
Forest Service – Caring for the Land and Serving People
Washinton Office
1400 Independenc Avenue, SW
Washington, DC, 20250
File Code: 6270 2015-FS-WO-00325-F
Date: Nov 07 2014
To: Mr. John Dougherty
Investigative Media
PO Box 501
Rimrock, AZ 86335
Dear Mr. Dougherty:
This letter is in response to your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request dated
October 13, 2014, which was received in the Washington Office FOIA Service Center on
October 21, 2014, and assigned control number 2015-FS-WO-00325-F. You are requesting
‘helmet cam’ footage taken by Forest Service personnel during the Yarnell Hill fire.
In response to your request, we conducted a search for responsive electronic and hard copy
records, everywhere a reasonably knowledgeable professional could expect to find responsive
records. We found 21 video files, which contain a total of 43 minutes and one second of footage.
17 video files are being released to you in full; four video files are being released to you in part,
with information withheld pursuant to Exemption 6 of the FOIA, 5 U.S.C 552 (b)(6) The
videos are enclosed on a DVD-ROM disc.
Exemption 6 protects information about individuals in “personnel and medical files and similar
files” when the disclosure of such information “would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion
of personal privacy.” We have determined that the following information must be withheld
pursuant to Exemption 6 of the FOIA: the identity of a civilian, and individual’s personal phone
number, and footage from the scene of the firefighter fatalities. The following videos have been
edited to remove this information:
1. M2U00266R is redacted from 2:55-2:58 to blur the face of a private party.
2. M2U00273R has the audio removed from 4:38-4:45 and from 5:03-5:20 to protect the
discussion of a personal telephone number.
3. M2U00276R has the video blocked from 4:20 until the end of the clip to protect a scene
that includes bodies of firefighters. The audio remains for this portion.
4. M2U00277R has the video blocked from 0:15 until the end of the clip to protect a scene
that includes bodies of firefighters. The audio remains for this portion.
The FOIA provides you the right to appeal this response. Any appeal must be made in writing,
within 45 days from the date of this letter, to the Chief, USDA, Forest Service: 1) by email to
wo_foia (at) fs.fed.us; 2) by regular mail to Mail Stop 1143, 1400 Independence Avenue, SW,
Washington, DC 20250-1143; 3) by Fed Ex or UPS to 201 14th Street, SW, Washington, DC
20250-1143 and telephone (202) 205-1542. The term “FOIA APPEAL” should be placed in
capital letters on the subject line of the email or on the front of the envelope. To facilitate the
processing of your appeal, please include a copy of this letter and/or the FOIA control number
assigned to your FOIA request 2015-FS-WO-00325-F.
Sincerely,
( Signed) TOM HARBOUR
Director, Fire and Aviation Management.
Enclosure: ( 1 DVD-ROM disc )
———————————————————————————-
This letter from the USFS to Mr. John Dougherty was DATED ‘November 7, 2014’, but Arizona Forestry ended up publishing the videos ( by uploading them to their public AZSF YouTube account ) the next day, on November 8, 2014, BEFORE Mr. John Dougherty ever actually RECEIVED this letter and his own copies of the same videos.
Since Arizona Forestry had obviously been INFORMED by USFS that they were now going to fulfill this FOIA request from Mr. Dougherty, AZF decided they better ‘publish’ the material FIRST… and ‘get out ahead of the story’.
Sure enough… that plan ‘worked’.
Obviously the MSM ( Mainstream Media ) jumped all over the publication of all these ‘hidden videos form the Yarnell Fire’… but they then started ( erroneously ) reporting that the material was ‘released’ as a result of an FOIA request from Arizona Forestry itself.
That was NOT the case.
The fact that it was InvestigativeMEDIA and Mr. John Dougherty that forced this hidden material to surface, and the fact that it was OBTAINED from employees of the Prescott National Forest who played a crucial role in the events leading up to, during, and following the fatal deployment ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell )… got “lost in the noise”… just as the USFS and Arizona Forestry hoped it would.
Arizona Forestry had simply said on their website when they ‘got out ahead of the story’ and published the long-hidden evidence on November 8, 2014…
“”Arizona State Forestry has not received any identifying or clarifying information
from the Forest Service.”
That’s because they did NOT get the same kind of ‘response letter’ that Mr. Dougherty received as the original submitter of the actual FOIA request.
Arizona Forestry never DID actually ‘request’ the material at all.
They only ‘arranged’ ( with USFS ) to receive and publish it all ( first ) via their own YouTube account because they now knew all of this same evidence was already ‘on its way’ to the person who DID force this evidence to the surface… Mr. John Dougherty of InvesitgativeMEDIA.
Does anyone really think that without Mr. John Dougherty’s actual FOIA request for this ‘Prescott National Forest’ employee ‘evidence’… that Arizona Forestry would have ever voluntarily chosen to publish it all on YouTube… at ANY time?
If you do… then I have some land I want to sell you ( in the Florida Everglades ).
PS: No one ( that anyone knows of ) has ever actually ‘interviewed’ PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell. Not during the either the SAIT or ADOSH or investigations or even when these ‘hidden videos’ surfaced that were obviously taken by them.
In addition… NO ONE has ever asked Aaron Hulburd if he would put his hand on any stack of books of his choosing and swear that, other than the stated redactions, this material is absolutely, 100 percent, the full ORIGINAL content that he shot that day in Yarnell… with nothing ‘missing’.
Someone should ( ask him that ).
WTKTT:
Thank you! That explains a lot.
Notwithstanding everything above that DOES explain some of the EDITS and some of the REDACTIONS in what USFS released…
…the fact is that what they released was NOT a ‘legal fulfillment’ of that FOIA request.
It has been PROVEN ( already ) that what the USFS released are not ‘byte for byte digital copies’ of the original material.
ALL of the videos they released have had MOST of the original EXIF metadata REMOVED… which makes it impossible to really know…
1. The actual original LENGTH of any of the movie clips.
2. The actual TIME and DATE when those clips were ‘shot’.
3. The actual DEVICE that was used to record that video.
The 4 video clips that they DO admit to ‘altering’ in order to make those ( legally allowed ) EDITS as per their ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ claims would, of course, NOT end up being ‘byte for byte’ copies of the originals ( because of the act of editing them )…
…but as for the 17 OTHER videos…
The LAW REQUIRES that all of those MUST BE ‘byte for byte digital copies’ of the original material requested via a valid, legal FOIA request.
So just in that aspect alone… USFS has broken the law… and it can already be PROVEN just by looking at the EXIF metadata content of what they released.
That original FOIA request can/should be ‘appealed’ and the original FOIA case number used to initiate a “full, legally compliant’ response to that valid FOIA request.
Unless they claim an FOIA exemption for ALL 21 videos ( they have not )… then they MUST be ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the ORIGINALS… complete with ALL of the original EXIF metadata.
Until that is supplied… then USFS continues to BREAK THE LAW.
WTKTT,
If you are interested, I posted kind of an extensive overview of the 18 USC criminal statutes dealing with PUBLIC RECORDS at
Robert the Second says
December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
You left out the link, RTS.
MOAR COFFEE???????
OK. I found it.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-318554
“It is ILLEGAL to just ‘withhold the information’ because you don’t want the requester to know it even exists.””
Yes, indeed it is illegal. See the Federal Statutes below:
http://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1663-protection-government-property-protection-public-records-and
“Title 18, Section 1663. Protection Of Government Property — Protection Of Public Records And Documents
The TAKING of a public record or document is prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 641. The DESTRUCTION OF SUCH RECORDS may be reached under 18 U.S.C. § 1361. In both instances, however, proving a $100 loss, THE PREREQUISITE TO A FELONY CONVICTION, MAY BE DIFFICULT. THUS, NEITHER OF THESE STATUTES ADEQUATELY PROTECTS GOVERNMENT RECORDS..”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 10, 2015 at 8:27 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> If you are interested, I posted kind of an extensive
>> overview of the 18 USC criminal statutes dealing
>> with PUBLIC RECORDS at
>>
>> Robert the Second says
>> December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
Yes. I saw that… and also commented on it down below calling it an ‘excellent roundup of things some people could/should be charged with’.
That’s also where I clarified ( in case I hadn’t made it clear already ) that while Arizona Forestry published no ‘qualifying information’ on their website when they posted the videos ( because they never actually filed an FOIA response and never got the same letter Mr. Dougherty did ), Mr. Dougherty’s ‘response letter’ is where they actually DO make some limited ( valid ) ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ claims for the ‘obvious’ redactions and edits in the released material.
But that is not where they have violated legal FOIA.
They have violated legal FOIA in not releasing full ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the 17 other videos for which there are NOT claiming any FOIA ‘exemptions’ at all.
Well, now that JD has published an article about the autopsy/toxicology reports, maybe he’ll re-go after the videos now, also.
Please JD??
And, while you’re at it, JD, a non-redacted version of the Blue Ridge Hotshots’ reports would also come in quite handy.
And, also, while you’re at it, JD, the photos and reports that were gathered by who-knows-whom from the Peeples Valley crew (and subsequently not released) would possibly help answer a bunch more questions. Those might, all things considered, be easier to obtain than the Blue Ridge reports.
Twould make for some awesome “Holiday” gifts for those of us who have been keeping this campfire stoked and burning for over two years, crazy conspiracy theorists and arm-chair quarterbacks that we are.
Thank you in advance, Namaste,
Marti
Additionally, I just wrote in Chapter XVIII this, in reponse to a comment by rocksteady:
“I basically agree with you, here,, rocksteady.
I actually think B33 was doing a terrific job, all things considered.
Which reminds me, now that we’re in this new room.
We left Chapter XVII discussing all the stuff that still needs to be FOIA’d.
I forgot that something else that, imho, is “missing in action” is the Air To Ground radio recordings from the Air Study Crew that I would bet more than my annual income exist somewhere.”
“NO ONE has ever asked Aaron Hulburd if he would put his hand on any stack of books of his choosing and swear that, other than the stated redactions, this material is absolutely, 100 percent, the full ORIGINAL content that he shot that day in Yarnell… with nothing ‘missing’.”
It’s beyond way too late fore me to even be up, much less replying to this.
But I was just sitting here falling asleep while trying to conjure up how to write my first article on Daily Kos (I wrote a story in the middle of last night tributing the yesterday death of John Trudell, who I have for decades considered the Native American Poet Laureate just because somebody needed to do it and I needed to see if I could navigate the Daily Kos 5 upgrade when it comes to writing and publishing) regarding this fire.
I’ve been sorta kinda in my head doing that for a few weeks now, but tonight was the first time I actually specifically sat down and imagined exactly how I might start to write it and then got lost and then almost fell asleep.
I mean WTF where to even begin???????
I began, here, with seeing Chris’s camera sitting in the middle of the Deployment
Site when, apparently, nobody else could even see it, two years ago, during the “holiday season” which I spent “virtually” crawling around there on the ground via a large number of photographs, looking at demolished fire shelters and variously burned radios and sunglasses and cellphones and water bottles and thus and such and a chain-saw right next to where somebody died, and a bunch of cards with numbers on them.
And then, a year ago, trying to figure our what kind of a camera Aaron might have been using (since the USFS scrubbed the metadata) in order to try and figure out what length of video files he might have been capturing in order to try and figure out how much of those files might have been “edited” by the USFS in order to try and figure out WTF?????
I mean, where does someone even begin to write, on a site that gets a million hits per day, about this fire?
Hey, Aaron, what do you think? Hello, Paul Musser? Brian Frisby, how’s your PTSD (that your mom wrote about on Facebook) working out for you? What made you, Ronnie Gamble, jump into that crew-buggy and start recording that radio transmission that included “would be nice if you could get down as soon as possible” (paraphrased cuz I’m writing now off the top of my head). Were you, Safety Officer Tony Sciacca, involved in that radio conversation that ended with someone asking “waz yo status?” just a little bit before you were shown standing there looking at that fire in that video beside Cougan Carothers?
Jeebus. What do we do with this stuff??????. If I write about this on a site that gets a million hits a day, where do I even begin?
OK I have to make appointments with lawyers tomorrow and finalize my ACA health plan. I probably, all things considered, won’t be writing about this on Daily Kos until after the beginning of the year. But, seriously, I don’t even remotely know where to begin.
It’s seriously time for me to go to bed.
But before I go to bed (realizing there are some things I haven’t read upstream), I want, also to respond to this:
“Woodsman says DECEMBER 9, 2015 AT 1:26 PM
Listening to the exchange between ‘Granite Mtn 7′ and air attack is hard to listen to. The response from the pilot would probably prompt me to visit the airbase afterwards to ‘ask’ him about it…..and that would probably be the day I got fired.”
I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The person serving as Air Attack in that video is John Burfiend, who is out of Silver City, New Mexico. His pilot, Tom French, lives in Rio Rancho, New Mexico, just outside of Albuquerque, as does Bea Day, the IC of the FULL Type wMT that I believe should have been assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire Saturday night, in the first place.
Believe me, I have periodically contemplated going and visiting all of these three folks. But I haven’t done it. Chicken-shit me?
Maybe, as I contemplate trying to figure out how to write about this fire on a website that gets a million hits a day, I will corral the courage to actually go and ask these three the questions I would love to ask them, seemings as to how, apparently, nobody else has.
Namaste
On the other hand.
I’m not even remotely optimistic that, all things considered, any of those three would be willing to answer the questions I would be wanting to ask them.
Which is kinda sorta why I haven’t gone to visit them.
So there’s that.
New chapter started
Thank you John
I haz a question.
Various ppl here have posted comments criticizing the Incident Command System. Particularly, I think, as it pertains to fighting wildfires in the WUI. And Bob Powers, I think, made that critique recently just downstream.
When these comments began appearing recently, especially as we were looking at the Twisp River Fire, I was kind of surprised, all things considered.
I spent a bunch of last week researching “fusion” fire-fighters, and slowly realizing, during our conversations, that the big problem is that wildland fire-fighters are having a more troublesome experience making that transition than structural fire-fighters are. It was really helpful for me to learn that.
Can anybody point me to articles or whatever on the Intertuuuubz critiquing the Incident Command System? I’d really like to learn more about that.
Marti,
Here’s one titled: “THE INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM: A 25-YEAR EVALUATION BY CALIFORNIA PRACTITIONERS” that deals with the strengths and weaknesses of the California ICS. 30 pages
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/pdf/efop/efo31023.pdf
And here is a ResearchGate article from the Journal of Homeland Security and
Emergency Management titled: “A Critical Evaluation of the Incident Command System and NIMS”
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40822661_A_Critical_Evaluation_of_the_Incident_Command_System_and_NIMS
Follow the link to the article then blue “Download full-text” in upper right corner which brings you to a stand alone PDF article.
NIIMS is the National Interagency Incident Management System and is VERY convoluted and confusing and thank God the wildland fire agencies do NOT have to use it YET.
The DHS has been trying for years to get us all enveloped in their tentacles and webs. The move is premised on the USDA and USFS Agency heads whining about all the alleged the Mega-Fires as being National Disasters and therefore they don’t have the funding to accomplish their congressional missions and need help from FEMA, the national pocketbook.
I hope these two articles help and satisfy your curiosity and your amazing mind.
Thank you!
Here is the link for the Contract Engine Crew VIMEO video clip of them saving the GMHS Crew Carriers from burning up on the 2012 Holloway Fire in NV and OR. This video has been REMOVED from the site by VIMEO so one cannot ‘search’ for it and find it on their site AND you cannot even view this one now. All you’ll see is a color photo of a fire scene, e.g. smoke column and helicopter bucket work.
The GMHS Crew Carriers were parked in the green, and so someone else had to save their buggies that day. Sound familiar? (VIMEO http://vimeo.com/48411010 “we saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!”).
When you go to about mid-video, is when the Engine Crew is knocking down flames within about 20 feet of the GMHS carriers after it jumped the control line. You notice the GMHS (black helmet) running down the hill and handline about mid image, then freeze-frame through it so you can see him running down the slope toward the GMHS buggies. NO GMHS were left behind to monitor and/or secure their carriers left in the unburned. WTF!?
Presumably, this was a Lookout? This is also the ‘Nevada Fire’ incident discussed in IM when the GMHS was interviewing candidates for a Squad Boss position and the ‘Nevada Fire’ came up as a leadership example. The ‘Nevada Fire’ was the one where the fire suddenly crested the ridge without them being aware of it (NO LOOKOUT), their buggies were threatened, they had to quickly burn out around themselves, and concluded ‘it all turned out okay in the end’ or something like that. Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and possibly even one (or more?) of the GMHS fires B/C Willis was referring to in the JUly 2013, YH FIre News Conference video when replying that it was “a very common occurrence to backfire around yourselves” to create a Safety Zone in response to NYT Reporter Fernada Santos question on the subject.
Thanks Marti. Glad to be back but some weak yet. Whew I don’t think I want another one of these as painful as the last one was. No morphine so you go though a horrible experience of pain worse than a mine slab falling on you. The sixth stent was applied and I woke up in ICU again. The hospital did call today with questions of how my stay was. The final question was did I enjoy my stay. As soon as I replied no they hung up. I believe I will get better in time but the state wont have to worry about me hiking anyone anytime soon.
Joy went to a house fire a couple miles from her home in Congress and was taking photos of the situation when approached by one of the local fire men. He asked who she was and she said I am the Desert Walker. He said Joy? We were told not to talk to you hikers. He did not end the conversation abruptly but listened as Joy explained that we estimated our escape as only by only 11 minutes. He said he did not know that but had been on the fire. He gave the reason for the mum order was that we were trying to keep things stirred up when it should be left alone. He then ambled over to the Sheriff deputy to talk, I personally take it as a compliment that when we hear more of the the truth of what happened that day we are glad to report it with no recompense.
Yes we escaped with a small margin. The video that was removed of those men using torches to set back fires right above the short rock wall along the dirt part of the Shrine Road and just a hundred yards or so above the Shrine were likely testament to why we were suddenly facing the fire coming our way when we should have had at least an hour head start on the fire. That Shrine location is very close to the Helms ranch and maybe only three quarters of a mile N and E’ When those winds changed that back fire would have quickly advanced toward the Helms and the north corner of Glen Isla. Considering the timing it could have easily trapped the GMHS. We did not know the timing on the video and wouldn’t you know, just as so much of every thing else has been redacted, that video was deleted. Had we been investigator savy, we would have down loaded it, How do they get away with posting things like that then able to remove them, Yes we saw the document that set the 320 acres aside on June 16 two weeks before the fire happened. Yes we were told by sources that the Helms had cleared defensible space two weeks before the fire==did they know something the rest of us did not? Yes there was a dozer that ran into a house just below the Helms along the North End of Glen Isla. The dozer man is suspiciously mum about his role in all this and was there also a back burn like the Shine one started along that perimeter? Why are so many like this fireman mummed up under strict orders? Why do we know people that purport to have photos of two yellow and white quads at the fire on Friday two days before the tragedy and on the day it started? Yet no investigator has approached us to see who these people are. We have very reputable people tell of the shredding of documents involving whar was said early on at a dispachers office. Why no investigation considering there are witnesses?
Yes am proud to say if seeking the truth and answers to why 19 were killed directly by the fire and 73 have since died in the aftermath with half the residences burned, then put me at the top of the list as one who keeps stirring the pot. The families, residents, those terribly affected by the fire deserve no less than the truth. Future wild land fighters need to know how belittling the rules as Donut has can only lead to disaster.
Yes on last Christmas night we spent the night on the mountain above the basin of death in honor of those men. It is true that a bright number 19 was floating above my left shoulder. I told Joy to photograph it and by the time she got her photo it had diminished in brightness but she still caught it. Whether a reflection off thin air I do not know or how it could be there but it has raised the hairs on some peoples arms when they saw it. Those men want the truth out and I can not give any other explanation for it.
Thanks for your support and we shall continu
Hey Irish…
Go raibh maith agat , Sonny . Thoil ar aghaidh a fháil go maith . Má lorg an fhírinne dealraitheach don roinnt mar stirring an phota , ansin is é an rud amháin a dhéanamh a chuardach le haghaidh níos mó spúnóga .
( Translation… )
Thank you, Sonny. Please continue to get well. If seeking the truth appears to some as stirring the pot, then the only thing to do is look for more spoons.
Thanks Sonny. I’m glad you’re doing better. Keep seeking the truth on this like the rest of us.
“The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.” Albert Einstein
WTKTT That is great advice. And we certainly welcome any new comers who want to help get the honest story of what happened to create the major tragedy on June 30, 2013. Certain members of the State in higher positions have managed to threaten people both verbally and by letter to keep what they know first hand secret so that most are afraid to give us details pertinent to understanding how management could fail so miserably in the Yarnell Hill Fire. So much cover up has created a situation that has left us no choice but to continue to dig at the real facts of what could cause the deaths of those young fire men. No one could be happy to accept the snow job we have been given.
If any awards would be given out it would be to all of those on this site who are stirring the pot to see if there are any chunks of beef hidden in the thin soup we have been fed. WTKTT and all those contributing here are the worthies bringing in the light of truth. And if any of the Irish gods of old be hanging around may they help us in our quest. Somehow I think Jesus might have fared better if he were Irish.
Sonny-
remember Jakob Salvati and how I told you that kid IS me THEN and NOW- in the movie Little Boy—I use to dress like that kid having a mother trying to glaze me to debutante way of life with dresses and style you hair but I always have remained more like Pippi-longstocking…I remember when my mother licked her finger to clear a flaw off my face because I just came from a sand box andhad dirt on my face or fell out of a high tree and scuffed myself up—I never changed.
Anyways- watch the movie again and watch the kid “Pepper” ( which by the way was my first word I learned before one years old) and watch the end at the gravesite— that kid was told his father died and he BELIEVED and I do believe there is one may it be kid KID or adult KID that truly BELIEVES one day all the details will surface and I seriously want John Dougherty to know THANK YOU for the place to come because I strongly believe as years pass one of these “kids” will arrive here and be pleased by all the efforts and research here-
Thank you for keeping this site OPEN and allowing people to share OPENLY not pretend like this never happened—it should of never happened but it did so now we need to make sure there is a spot where people can always share about the YHF and its aftermath.
THANK YOU to all that remain here and newcomers too-
man what was I doing when you wrote that?
Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 5:17 PM
call me tonight but as soon as you get this. Not after the hour. 818 506 7889
Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
http://christianwildehealthinfo.com/
The man above cared enough to reach and speak to Sonny that sure he is weak but he will send two of his books and get the ol’ Irish back and going.
He made the lifestyle change and still quite weak—but I have confidence he will do ok—trying to read through all the pages for the ejection fraction for him—he has home evaluation home care this week but a lot of tests too—•A normal heart’s ejection fraction may be between 55 and 70.
You can have a normal ejection fraction reading and still have heart failure. If the heart muscle has become so thick and stiff that the ventricle holds a smaller-than-usual volume of blood, it might still seem to pump out a normal percentage of the blood that enters it. In reality, though, the total amount of blood pumped isn’t enough to meet your body’s needs.
cardiomyopathy I had read on one page and one was 38 and 42 but I also read awhile back 65 so we meet to see his current after last heart attack (four in a short time)
Yes, good to see Sonny trying his best to keep moving forward alive and living.
No woulda, coulda, shoulda for him- he is doing the work-
seems he is keeping his own fire alive.
or like he says…he is the walking dead—a zombie.
he tries when his body is weary-
I am gonna try and crash—hard with shingles and other areas—
just ordered a bunch of blood labs to figure where to directly focus-
Good Night.
This something I’ve had in the back of my mind for a long time. Possible scenario: the fire blows up and escapes all divisions. Plans are made to fire off around threatened subdivisions and RANCHES. GM poorly communicated their exact retreat route while forces burned out below them or in a place that caused a head fire toward them due to rapidly deteriorating weather conditions. Failure in coordination between those firing and a crew hiking out (through unburned fuel no less!.)
I believe some answers lie in the helmet cam video – right at the moments we lose audio and/or video. I could sense some very important elements are stated right after these ‘muted’ sections in the video.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I am told the ORIGINAL Helmet Cam video has a lot more information on it based on those that actually heard the ORIGINAL, UNCUT version. However, it was heavily redacted by the so-called Powers-to-Be, allegedly the Almighty Forest Service.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 9, 2015 at 8:41 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I am told the ORIGINAL Helmet Cam video has a lot more
>> information on it based on those that actually heard the
>> ORIGINAL, UNCUT version. However, it was heavily
>> redacted by the so-called Powers-to-Be, allegedly
>> the Almighty Forest Service.
There has never been any doubt that those video clips from the three Prescott National Forest (PNF) employees that USFS and the SAIT didn’t even really want us to know were THERE, and actively participating in the Yarnell fire ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) were heavily ‘edited’ before release.
They ( USFS and Arizona Forestry ) SAY so ( for some of them ), and those edits are perfectly obvious in the clips themselves ( blackouts, audio dropouts because people were reciting cellphone numbers of family members, faces of some citizens blurred, etc. etc. ).
But is has ALSO always been perfectly obvious there is some content MISSING from those clips.
The MISSING content is most likely removed from either the START or the END of some of the clips ( or both ). In other words… I think that might actually be the complete, sequential filenames of the clips from Aaron Hulburd’s camera ( because USFS knew they better not fuck with that and end up with any sequential filenames MISSING )… but the clips were ‘truncated’ and content removed from one ( or both ) ‘ends’ of the clips.
The content that remained which we weren’t supposed to hear ( such as SPGS Gary Cordes specifically requesting TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to send one or more engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure ‘Granite Mountain’ gets ‘out of there safely’ )… was, I believe. Just a fuck-up on someone’s part at the USFS.
They are clever… but they’re not perfect. Someone screwed up and didn’t hear the words ‘Granite Mountain’ in that radio capture so they ‘let it go’.
One of the reasons you can be sure these ‘edits’ were professionally done and still hard to detect is jsut one of the ‘blurring’ sequences.
Whoever did that ‘face blurring’ up at USFS of the citizen driving his truck out of the driveway and then stopping to ask Jason Clawson if he would help him evacuate his OTHER vehicle was really, really GOOD.
There is a spot in that sequence where, for only TWO frames of the video, the man’s face appears THROUGH the arm and elbow of Jason Clawson.
Whoever was doing the ‘face-blurring’ even caught those two frames and blurred that citizen’s face on THOSE frames along with everything else.
Not shabby. That is ‘attention to detail’ and proves that ‘editing’ was done by a PROFESSIONAL ( and not Aaron Hulburd himself ).
Some of the OTHER reasons you can ‘bet’ material was ‘chopped’ from the starts and ends of these clips would be…
1. Aaron Hulburd himself says, in one of the clips, in response to a question from KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell about whether Hulburd had been ‘filming’ everything, that YES, he had… and Hulburd then adds that he had only turned off his camera for 2 or 3 minutes and that is assumed to have been for a ‘battery change’, or something. If you add up the MISSING TIME from all those clips on the Shrine Road… it is more like 15 to 18 minutes ‘missing’ ( along with any important background radio traffic ) from that timeframe. That in NO WAY matches what Hulburd himself reported to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell about only having stopped filming in that timeframe for ‘2 or 3 minutes’.
2. Aaron Hulburd was filming all of the vehicles that were evacuating from the Shrine Road Youth Camp area. It REMAINS ‘not credible’ that he wouldn’t have also filmed the START of the vehicles coming out which included the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers, McDonough in the GM Supt. truck, and the first Blue Ridge Crew Carrier. That sequence also would have contained some critical background radio capture(s).
3. It also remains totally NOT CREDIBLE to think that, at the end of the very last clip in this ‘hidden material’… when Hulburd and Clawson and Yowell and Frisby and Brown had climbed back up to the top of the ridge above the deployment site to begin to drive those 3 UTVs out of there and back to town… that Hulburd would have CUT OFF his filming right in the middle of the following statement…
“I guess the question that will always remain is….”
That is the moment the video ends and we don’t get to hear what the rest of that statement was… which was MOST probably something like…
“…what the fuck were they even doing down there in the first place”.
I repeat… it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Aaron Hulburd would have chosen that exact mid-sentence moment to switch his camera OFF.
It is MORE LIKELY someone at USFS didn’t want us to HEAR what these USFS employees actually thought the “question that will always remain” was.
Arizona Forestry went to great lengths to say that they were publishing the long-hidden evidence ‘as they received it’ from USFS in order to cover their own asses. They said so at the top of the webpage they used to first publish them.
Here again is where all those additional videos ( that had been hidden from both the SAIT and ADOSH ) were originally published on a special Arizona Forestry website page…
Arizona State Forestry
https://azsf.az.gov/New-Video-Clips
From the top of that page that has links to all the video clips…
————————————————————————
Page Title: Newly Acquired Yarnell Hill Video
On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest Service. To be transparent with the public, the videos are presented exactly as they have been received. The redactions were done before these videos came into the possession of Arizona State Forestry.
————————————————————————-
By the way… this has been said before but bears repeating.
It is, in fact, ILLEGAL to remove material from anything that qualifies for inclusion with a valid FOIA request… UNLESS you state WHAT is being withheld and WHY. There ARE ‘exemptions’ that can be claimed when you are preparing the material… but you have to come out and MAKE the CLAIMS and state ( specifically ) which ‘allowed exemptions’ are being claimed.
It is ILLEGAL to just ‘withhold the information’ because you don’t want the requester to know it even exists.
WTKTT:
Yes. In the video of them bouncing up the 2-track in the red UTV (where they are obviously stressed and hauling ass to get to the deployment site) there is a moment where a conversation starts and audio is DROPPED. What was said at this point must be key information, IMO.
Irrelevant side note: Listening to the exchange between ‘Granite Mtn 7’ and air attack is hard to listen to. The response from the pilot would probably prompt me to visit the airbase afterwards to ‘ask’ him about it…..and that would probably be the day I got fired.
Woodsman
WTKTT,
Good job My Friend, good job.
You’re gonna love all this dealing with official PUBLIC Government ‘RECORDS’ which include recordings and video. This is gonna get deep dealing with Title 18 Criminal Code violations. And that MAY be why our WF public officials are running scared and afraid to come forward with the ORIGINAL, UNREDACTED records.
You stated: “Page Title: Newly Acquired Yarnell Hill Video – On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest Service. To be transparent with the public, THE REDACTIONS WERE DONE BEFORE THESE VIDEOS CAME INTO THE POSSESSION OF ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY.”
…
“It is, in fact, ILLEGAL to remove material from anything that qualifies for inclusion with a valid FOIA request… UNLESS you state WHAT is being withheld and WHY. There ARE ‘exemptions’ that can be claimed when you are preparing the material… but you have to come out and MAKE the CLAIMS and state ( specifically ) which ‘allowed exemptions’ are being claimed.
It is ILLEGAL to just ‘withhold the information’ because you don’t want the requester to know it even exists.””
Yes, indeed it is illegal. See the Federal Statutes below:
http://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1663-protection-government-property-protection-public-records-and
“Title 18, Section 1663. Protection Of Government Property — Protection Of Public Records And Documents
The TAKING of a public record or document is prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 641. The DESTRUCTION OF SUCH RECORDS may be reached under 18 U.S.C. § 1361. In both instances, however, proving a $100 loss, THE PREREQUISITE TO A FELONY CONVICTION, MAY BE DIFFICULT. THUS, NEITHER OF THESE STATUTES ADEQUATELY PROTECTS GOVERNMENT RECORDS..
The NECESSARY MEASURE OF PROTECTION for government documents and records is provided by 18 U.S.C. § 2071. Section 2071(a) contains a BROAD PROHIBITION AGAINST DESTRUCTION OF GOVERNMENT RECORDS OR ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY SUCH RECORDS. This section provides that WHOEVER: WILLFULLY AND UNLAWFULLY; CONCEALS, REMOVES, MUTILATES, OBLITERATES OR DESTROYS; OR ATTEMPTS TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE. OBLITERATE OR DESTROY; OR CARRIES AWAY WITH INTENT TO DESTROY WITH INTENT TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE, OBLITERATE OR DESTROY; ANY RECORD, PROCEEDING, MAP, BOOK, PAPER, DOCUMENT OR OTHER THING DEPOSITED IN ANY PUBLIC OFFICE may be punished by imprisonment for three years, a $2, 000 fine, or both.
There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a SPECIFIC INTENT CRIME. This means that the defendant MUST ACT INTENTIONALLY WITH KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS VIOLATING THE LAW. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).
The ACTS PROSCRIBED by this section are DEFINED BROADLY. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) CONCEALMENT, REMOVAL, MUTILATION, OBLITERATION OR DESTRUCTION OF RECORDS; (2) ANY ATTEMPT TO COMMIT THESE PROSCRIBED ACTS; and (3) CARRYING AWAY ANY RECORD WITH THE INTENT TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE OR DESTROY IT. It should be noted that ALL OF THESE ACTS INVOLVE EITHER MISAPPROPRIATION OF OR DAMAGE TO PUBLIC RECORDS. This has led one court to conclude that the mere photocopying of these records does not violate 18 U.S.C. § 2071. See United States v. Rosner, 352 F. Supp. 915, 919-22 (S.D.N.Y. 1972).
Subsection (b) of 18 U.S.C. § 2071 contains a similar prohibition specifically directed at custodians of public records. Any CUSTODIAN of a public record who “willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys (any record) shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States.” While the range of acts proscribed by this subsection is somewhat narrower than subsection (a), it does provide the ADDITIONAL PENALTY OF FORFEITURE OF POSITION with the United States.
Title 18 contains two other provisions, of somewhat narrower application, which relate to public records. Section 285 prohibits the unauthorized taking, use and attempted use of any document, record or file relating to a claim against the United States for purposes of procuring payment of that claim. Section 1506 prohibits the theft, alteration or falsification of any record or process in any court of the United States. Both of these sections are punishable by a $5,000 fine or imprisonment for five years.
[cited in USAM 9-66.400]”
The ‘RECORDS” are the Helmet Cam Video/Audio Recordings created by a Government Official on official WF business in performance of his official duties turned these over to a higher ranking official in the USFS. These USFS officials then became the CUSTODIAN(S) of those official records and allegedly engaged in the proscribed acts of: (1) CONCEALMENT, REMOVAL, MUTILATION, OBLITERATION OR DESTRUCTION OF RECORDS; (2) ANY ATTEMPT TO COMMIT THESE PROSCRIBED ACTS; and (3) CARRYING AWAY ANY RECORD WITH THE INTENT TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE OR DESTROY IT, i.e. DAMAGE TO PUBLIC RECORDS.
So then we can add onto ALL this ABOVE to ALL the following BELOW:
“OFFICIAL CERTIFICATES OR WRITINGS – 18 USC Section 1018 – Whoever, being a public officer or other person authorized by the US to make or give a certificate or other writing, knowingly makes and delivers as true such a certificate or writing, containing any statement which he knows to be false, is a case where the punishment thereof is not elsewhere expressly provided by law, shall be fined not more than $500.00 or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.”
“CONSPIRACY – 18 USC Section 371 – when two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the US, or any agency thereof in any manner and for any purpose, and one or more of such persons to any act to effect the object of the conspiracy shall be fined not more than $10,000 dollars or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
“MISPRISON OF A FELONY – 18 USC Section 4 – “Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the US, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority in the US, shall be fined not more than $500.00 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.”
“MAIL FRAUD – 18 USC Section 1341 – the elements are (1) a scheme to defraud, (2) which involves a use of the mails, (3) for the purpose of executing the scheme. It need not depend on the actual success of the scheme depended on the mailings; must have specific intent, knowing it was illegal and that the thing mailed was an integral part of the execution of the scheme; and it is sufficient for the indictment to allege that merely use of the mails to further the scheme.”
“FRAUD BY WIRE, RADIO, OR TELEVISION – 18 USC Section 1343 – Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses. representations, or promises, transmits or cause to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writing, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined no more than $1,000.00 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
“FRAUD AND FALSE STATEMENTS – 18 USC Section 1001 – Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the US knowingly and willfully falsifies, conceals or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact, or makes any false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or representations, or makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any false statement or entry hall be fined not more than $10,000.00 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
“RACKETEERING – 18 USC Section 1961, 1962 – “Racketeering activity” means … (B) any act which is indictable under any of the following provisions of title 18, United States Code: … Section 1341 (relating to mail fraud) , Section 1343 (relating to wire fraud) …(5) pattern of racketeering activity” requires at least two acts of racketeering activity , one of which occurred after the effective date of this chapter and the last of which occurred within ten years … after the commission of a prior act of racketeering activity.”
All the above citations were from about 1989 to 2000 era, so some of the verbiage may have changed slightly, but you will get the drift of it all. So, I am alleging that Federal Crimes were committed by USDA USFS Federal Officials in the ILLEGAL redaction of public records, i.e. the HELMET CAM VIDEOS.
This is all Federal law and I am sure that Arizona law has similar statutes relating to the above.
So, going through all the above, in summary, the Helmet Cam video was a Federal record, taken by a Federal official (WFF), on official duty, who then turned over a TRUE AND ACCURATE, COMPLETE, UNREDACTED VIDEO to a USDA USFS Public Official, which was REDACTED BY USDA USFS PUBLIC OFFICIAL(S), then turned over to Arizona State Public Official(s) who admitted that all “THE REDACTIONS WERE DONE BEFORE THESE VIDEOS CAME INTO THE POSSESSION OF ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY.”
The following Federal violations are alleged regarding Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Records:
(1) CONSPIRACY – 18 USC Section 371 (when they no doubt planned this whole affair in person and on the phone and in emails); AND
(2) OFFICIAL CERTIFICATES OR WRITINGS – 18 USC Section 1018 (claiming that these were true and accurate records based on them being the Custodian of the records); AND
(3) MISPRISON OF A FELONY – 18 USC Section 4 (when those that knew this was illegal said and did nothing about it); AND
(4) MAIL FRAUD – 18 USC Section 1341 (when they mailed and/or caused to be mailed the illegally redacted record); AND
(5) FRAUD BY WIRE, RADIO, OR TELEVISION – 18 USC Section 1343 (when they illegally emailed, phone called, etc. the illegally redacted records); AND
(6) FRAUD AND FALSE STATEMENTS – 18 USC Section 1001 (when they falsely and illegally certified these as true and accurate records); AND finally (and best of all)
(7) RACKETEERING – 18 USC Section 1961, 1962 (when they mailed and emailed said illegally redacted documents as true and accurate records within a ten year period).
WTF, OVER!?
I am no WTKTT and will not provide the expert Sherlock Holmesian analysis he is so good at and always does. I will leave it up you, the reader, to determine the extent of this ALLEGED criminal, fraudulent, illegal activities based on the conclusions you will come to reading through the statutes and comparing them to the USDA USFS actions regarding the records. NO ONE is above the law!
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
RTS… fantastic ’roundup’ of the things any number of people could ( should? ) be charged with regarding just this these ‘Aaron Hulburd’ videos alone.
However… let me make one thing clear that I don’t think I did a good job of up above.
The OBVIOUS redactions in the long-hidden evidence videos that USFS finally ‘coughed up’ ( thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA ) in November of 2014 WERE, in fact, ‘claimed exemptions’ by USFS according to ‘FOIA Exemption rule 6 – protection of privacy’.
See this post to Woodsman up above that has a link to the actual letter that John Dougherty received from USFS when HE finally received HIS copies of the long-hidden evidence from USFS…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-318579
If I can get away with TWO links in this message ( sometimes that works )… here is a link to that actual ‘response letter’ Mr. Dougherty received where USFS is officially claiming FOIA Exemption 6 for the OBVIOUS edits/redactions in the VISIBLE part of what they were releasing in November, 2014…
Mr. Dougherty published a copy of that ‘letter’ he received from USFS at the following link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/usfs-foia-response-yarnell-videos-11-7-14.pdf
But that is all NOT what I was talking about up above.
I was talking about what I believe are also ‘obvious edits’ and/or ‘modifications’ to the original videos that are NOT MENTIONED by USFS and were NOT also being declared and/or included in any stated ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ declaration(s).
Things like portions of some of the content of some of the clips simply being ‘chopped off’ from either the start of the end of the ORIGINAL MATERIAL.
As Marti reminded us… when we were talking about all this before… one of the things we DID prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is that NONE of the videos that were released were a ‘byte for byte’ copy of the ORIGINALS ( as required by law if no ‘edits’ are being claimed under any ‘exemption’ rule ).
NONE of those videos released in response to a valid FOIA request from InvestigativeMEDIA are ‘byte for byte’ copies of the originals… including the ones where USFS is claiming no ‘edits’ were made and no ‘FOIA exemptions’ are being claimed.
There is EXIF data MISSING from ALL of the material that was released by USFS… and so NONE of the videos are ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the originals… as required by LAW.
InvestigativeMEDIA could STILL file an FOIA appeal regarding the original request and demand ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the ORIGINALS.
The letter could say…
“Nice try, fellas… but where are the ORIGINALS. What you sent me are NOT ‘byte for byte’ copies of the original material as required by law”.
WTKTT and RTS~
I’m wondering if this also applies to the heavily redacted Blue Ridge IHC reports and also the Peeples Valley Crew’s images and reports.
Regarding the BR IHC reports (not looking at that stuff cuz I still haven’t schlepped my hard drives over), IIRC, those redactions were, supposedly, done cuz “Privacy” but I don’t believe that for a second.
The Peeples Valley stuff, on the other hand, just….disappeared or “something.”
And then there’s the whole issue regarding the alleged (by Sonny and Joy) shredding of Dispatch records. That would be a state thing, I guess, but, still…..????????
The other thing that has really bugged me but I haven’t quite known how to articulate it is that there were news reports that came out that included audio snippets of, I think, Dispatch conversations that we have never been provided anywhere. Does that ring any bells?
“Robert the Second says DECEMBER 9, 2015 AT 8:41 AM
Woodsman,
I am told the ORIGINAL Helmet Cam video has a lot more information on it based on those that actually heard the ORIGINAL, UNCUT version.”
You are saying “video” and “version.” Singular. Were you TOLD that the “original……video” was one video?
When these videos came out we spent some time trying to figure out what kind of camera was used to shoot them, in order to try to figure out what the camera’s capabilities, file types, file lengths, etc, were, since the metadata had been stripped (ahem).
Not being one who uses this kind of stuff (I still find video more of a pita than it’s worth in my kind of work), I spent about a week researching these cameras. I figured out that the camera Aaron was using on Shrine Road was a Sony (because of the major optical zoom). Since it was a year ago that I did that, I have no idea exactly what conclusion I came to as to all of that. But we talked about it then a lot here.
WTKTT says he thinks the file names are the original ones. I’m not at all sure about that. But it would help to know if you were told singular or plural.
Peace?
Marti,
I recall the time we were discussing about the device(s) used in this.
When I say HELMET CAM VIDEO, I am referring to ALL of the video and audio recordings made by Aaron Hulbert during and after the GMHS June 30, 2013, deployment and fatalities in the PLURAL, even though they may have been done by devices other than a helmet cam.
Marti,
Of course, Peace!
OK. Thanks. That helps. It may be that WTKTT is correct in that the file names are the originals. But that’s what I wanted to possibly pin down via my question.
I also agree with WTKTT that what should have been supplied via the AZDF FOIA of the videos should have been the original videos with the metadata intact. That’s not what happened.
I think it was definitely a CYA on the part of both AZDF and USFS while the rumors (and Donut-generated narratives) regarding the “argument” “video” (which we still haven’t seen the evidence regarding) were beginning to surface.
Marti,
There were MANY WFF that day that heard the GMHS “argument” “discussing our options” audio that day that were monitoring the GMHS on their Crew Net channel.
Moreover, Willis admitted in the News Conference video “… we were able to monitor the radio frequencies … and knew they were done with their assignment and heading south …” to protect “those” structures (likely the BSR).
There will hopefully someday be an “argument video/audio” because that should have been on the Helmet Cam video.
And when the UNREDACTED Helmet Cam audio is FINALLY released, it will be in there as well.
BINGO.
Thank you for that.
I was also wondering, when Aaron’s videos were released, if that “argument” might have been recorded on his earlier videos, which were taken during the burn-out operation on Model Creek Road, with a different and earlier-manufactured camera, which was only capable, I think, of recording shorter videos.
That operation was happening between 3:30 and 4:00 PM.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 9, 2015 at 5:59 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> When these videos came out we spent some time trying
>> to figure out what kind of camera was used to shoot them,
>> in order to try to figure out what the camera’s capabilities,
>> file types, file lengths, etc, were, since the metadata
>> had been stripped (ahem).
Yes. Without that ‘original metadata’ it was impossible to say exactly when even the device thought the videos were ‘shot’ ( time/date )… but exactly what DEVICE was used to create them so we could verify the filenames.
Example: Was it really one of the devices that, even when shooting continuous video, would ‘automatically’ be creating separate ( short ) sequential files, like some devices do.
That is also when we PROVED that the USFS had NOT ‘legally complied’ with InvetigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request.
USFS claimed ( valid ) ‘FOI Exemption 6’ for the ones they were admitting to having edited ( blackouts of bodies, audio removal of cellphone numbers, blurring of a citizen’s face, etc. )… and those videos had an ‘R’ added to the ends of the filenames.
So obviously those were not going to be ‘byte for byte’ digitial copies of the originals, as required by law.
But for ALL of the other videos where NO EDITS were being claimed at all… we ALSO proved they were NOT ‘byte for byte digital copies of the originals’… as required by LAW.
ALL of those videos had important ‘evidence’ REMOVED.
The complete (original) EXIF data.
InvestigateMEDIA could ( should? ) STILL file an ‘appeal’ ( as allowed by law ) of that original FOIA response, using the same case tracking number for the original request, and raise this issue that the original FOIA request is still ‘pending’ and needs proper, valid, LEGAL fulfillment because what WAS supplied is obvious NOT what is required by LAW.
Byte-for-byte digital copies of the original material, including ALL original EXIF data. ( Device used, original time/date, original length, etc,, etc. ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I figured out that the camera Aaron was using on Shrine
>> Road was a Sony (because of the major optical zoom).
Yes… and one of the other things that definitely pointed to a ‘Sony’ device was the fact that even though what USFS supplied in response to the FOIA request were not ‘byte for byte digital copies’ of the originals… they appeared to have kept the original filenames AND the file extension… which was .MPG ( and not .MP4 or .MOV or anything else ).
That also ‘narrows it down’ to the ‘Sony’ devices.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Since it was a year ago that I did that, I have no idea
>> exactly what conclusion I came to as to all of that.
>> But we talked about it then a lot here.
The importance of knowing the exact device is to determine whether not it really was one of the devices on the market that will ‘automatically’ be chopping ‘contiguous video’ into smaller ( sequential ) video ‘clips’ on the device.
The ‘brick wall’ we ran into was that these files were SO ‘altered’ and were SO much NOT ‘byte for byte copies of the originals’ ( as required by LAW )… there was no way to determine the device since so much EXIF data have been REMOVED.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> WTKTT says he thinks the file names are the original ones.
>> I’m not at all sure about that.
Neither am I, really. That’s just ‘where we left it’.
We ‘left it’ at ASSUMING that what USFS supplied were the original file sequence names… but because so much original EXIF data was (obviously) REMOVED from what USFS released… we could not prove if Aaron Hulburd was really turning his camera on and off as much as the clips seemed to indicate he was… or whether the device was shooting continuous video and just ‘automatically’ creating sequential filenames… and someone was ‘chopping off’ segments from the START and END of the clips and ‘shortening them’.
Bottom line: I still do NOT believe that Hulburd was turning his camera ON and OFF during that Shrine Road timeframe as much as the video clips that were released would have us believe.
It’s just not credible. Never has been.
Just another Example: In the video that actually captured the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown first appeared coming from the Youth Camp and then STOPPED there near the parking lot and Brown greeted KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell with…
“We were just tryin’ to make sure fuckin’ idiots weren’t burning themselves up. God daaamn!”
…it turns out that they stopped right there where the dirt road met the pavement and both KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd then walked TOWARDS them where they were already talking to Jason Clawson.
This is the moment that even the SAIR said that Frisby and Brown were “sharing what they knew about Granite Mountain”.
There was absolutely NO REASON for Hulburd to have suddenly turned his camera OFF as that ‘conversation’ was just starting…
…but that’s what the clip released by USFS would have us believe.
woodsman…the game of hot and cold…Keep researching this out…you are okay on feeling redacted information and omitted information reveals how hot u r…Keep peeling..maybe one day true brown frisby not Paul Morin and tarr can open up much more even missed…
Not
The word not should not be there
Darn talk to text
I never said even missed I said musser
Musser’s at the top of MY list. For a whole bunch of things.
So I’m getting warmer or hot?
When I listened to the helmet cam video, I remember one firefighter saying, “why?!?” when they were talking about the location of GM…like ‘why are they there or why did they go there??!!?’ That’s what it sounded like to me. Just after this statement, the answer to this question was coming……..then video was muted.
All these riddles to solve….it would have been way easier to tell the whole truth up front and deal with it than this. The prolonged ‘game’ makes it all worse. I don’t see how families, firefighters, and managers can possibly have closure. I pray for those that have lost so much but I also pray for those that are withholding serious evidence as well. It must be a hell of a burden on them.
So continues the process of hypothesis development and testing…the scientific method. The truth will come out. It must.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I continue to allege that the SAIT was following the established Federal model of FIRST ESTABLISH A CONCLUSION, THEN FIND THE FACTS TO FIT THAT CONCLUSION.
“The [SAIT] found NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL.”
So what’s the problem. they did everything right, it was “just one of those things that happens, and “it was just an accident.” What’s the big deal, nothing to see here, move on. “They’re heroes that willingly gave their lives” Leave it alone, let it go …. WTF!?
Joy,
you said: “maybe one day true brown frisby not Paul Morin and tarr can open up much more even missed…”
So which one visited Sonny and/or you recently? Can I just have the initials?
Colder or warmer?
Which person’s information should I look over more closely?
Thanks!
Woodsman
the one who visited Sonny in the hospital—he is an officer now retired with court order threatening his retirement as well…come in person to learn name like Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty did—due to the people who seek to hide the truth
the one who visited Sonny in the hospital—he is an officer now retired with court order threatening his retirement as well…come in person to learn name like Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty did—due to the people who seek to hide the truth
Joy,
I wish I could come in person. I’ll let you know if I ever end up in the area.
A court order to keep someone quiet huh? How does that work? I can understand slander but truth? Must be real, real bad things went down that day. Real bad.
Thank you.
Woodsman
Real sad…
Yes it is sad…what several did that day was bad…if you study our rules just a tad…you will see why we’re so mad…
…..the only thing missing is a hanging chad…
But SOME of us refuse to continue being had.
Reply to Woodsman post on
December 9, 2015 at 1:33 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> …..the only thing missing is a hanging chad…
By the time this over… I believe there well might be some ‘hung chads’ ( or ‘hung chaps’ ).
I’m not talking about the ‘gallows’, of course ( and not even so much about June 30, 2013 )…
…but I believe there is more than enough evidence already ‘on the table’ that a LOT of people have broken a LOT of LAWS in their ongoing attempts to prevent the TRUTH from coming out following this tragic ( historic ) incident in that totally tax-payer funded workplace.
WTKTT,
See my post below discussing the 18 USC criminal statutes dealing with Public Records at
Robert the Second says
December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
locals I can now tell you what I told yo private— it was Cheryl Burgess home that was on fire and yrd sale brenda told water company bri and pat fisher her five dogs died in fire…keep you posted. cheryl, if you see this message first before email or phone messages I am with sonny but you always know the desert walker can rearrange things tohelp you with the aftermath of this loss and do clean up for free….i am very sorry while you were on vacation ou lost your ranch to an electrical concern. Prayers to u and Jerry and I am here for you Cheryl—so sorry…I can say as eyewitness because I was on Weavers Congress side and took photos…called Ronda and text to confirm i was not her place and immediately I got there and Congress fire dept were superfast and very proud and I just am confused how your animals died if Jerry stayed behind…I know you are taking bus home but call me 480-280-5813 if I can assist in oplane ticket
This, the work that you are doing, Joy, is why I haven’t written my signature on some pieces of paper you have been sending me.
I just decided to say that here, since I am still being vastly irresponsible regarding my email.
Sonny. Keep Kicking!!
I hadn’t had a chance to write this til now.
I noted with interest your description of the work that was done on the Helms Ranch and the (now I can’t remember exactly what you called it) special circumstances applied to it during that two-week period leading up to the Yarnell Fire. As in, was somebody planning to do a Prescription Burn there at that time?
I just don’t think a Prescription Burn would have been planned there during that time. As I understand it, most Prescription Burns happen during much lower-danger periods. Especially now, after the Cerro Grande Fire near Los Alamos. Those two weeks in June of 2013 wouldn’t have fit into that framework, unless I am missing something.
Regarding a possible back-fire near there during the Yarnell Fire. Except for what you have said, we still have no EVIDENCE of something like that having happened.
You are saying there was a backfire lit from Shrine Road. Unless I am missing something, we have no evidence of that either. Am I missing something? And even if what you are saying is true, imho, I don’t think a backfire from Shrine Road could have spread faster than just the basic fricking wildfire turning around and heading down into the Glen Ilah vis a vis the photos and videos we have.
To be perfectly honest, some of this (but not limited to this) is why I said, somewhere upstream or downstream, that Paul Musser is at the top of my list of people we need to hear a eholr lot more from. From the records we have, we have no records of anybody actually setting back-burns from anywhere either near the Helms Ranch or Shrine Road.
But since he made himself Field OPS on the south part of the fire after the fire reversed direction, he would have been the person responsible for either of what you are writing about happening.
With natural tear drop glazing down my right cheek.
Thank you.
I have two brain tumors but I am feeling a possible third two inches above my right in hair and the pain…thanks to sonny he is buying me urgent blood and urine labs to test my cancer markers, liver, pancreas, chest, kidney, etc…thank you Marti and Sonny.
I have been like that since a tot Marti…helping others for free just a natural thing for me…I think Cheryl Burgess is 66-70 age range…a rancher gal…so I know the loss is going to be hard…
Again thank u Marti
Namaste
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 9, 2015 at 10:09 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Regarding a possible back-fire near there during the Yarnell Fire.
>> Except for what you have said, we still have no EVIDENCE
>> of something like that having happened.
Correct.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You are saying there was a backfire lit from Shrine Road.
>> Unless I am missing something, we have no evidence of
>> that either. Am I missing something?
No. You are not ‘missing something’.
There is ( currently ) no evidence anything like that happened.
On the contrary… given the AIR15 Helicopter footage and all of the (eventually) released Hulburd videos showing the Shrine area… the evidence indicates there were NO backfires intentionally set anywhere on Shrine road and all the way out to the Youth Camp.
There is STILL that evidence from Captain Darby Starr ( the one who got the VFW Firefighter of the Year Award for his supposed ‘heroic’ actions out at the Youth Camp ) that he and some others THOUGHT about ‘backfiring on the way out’ ( of the Youth Camp… but he also said they did NOT ( repeat NOT ) actually do any such thing.
They were just lucky to get out of there before becoming 6 MORE bodies that would have had to have been carried out of Yarnell.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And even if what you are saying is true, imho, I don’t think a
>> backfire from Shrine Road could have spread faster than just
>> the basic fricking wildfire turning around and heading down
>> into the Glen Ilah vis a vis the photos and videos we have.
The AIR15 News Helicopter video also supports that.
It’s THE ATTACK OF THE GOOD IDEA PEOPLE: new and improved fire shelters from NASA no less and just a teensie weensie bit heavier! Where does it stop?
http://dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=152544
Fire shelters are NOT the answer. They are a Last Resort for when you or someone else has really f**ked up!
No ‘new’ temperature survivability numbers.
No ‘new’ flame contact tolerance information.
No ‘new’ $$$$ cost estimates.
No results mentioned at all from the already-performed ‘Canadian field test’.
Just a whole lot of “Hey!… we might be on to something!” bullshit.
You have to love this comment left on the article…
———————————————–
Wallace Teto
The limiting oxygen index for diffusion flames is 13-14%. Humans can survive at levels down to 10%, though they may be in a state of unconsciousness. Yes there is “breathable oxygen” during a fire, otherwise there would be no fire, and both the fire and humans make use of it. Since a human can survive at a lower rate than combustion (even conflagration), the human would out-live the fire if he were protected in all other aspects.
———————————————–
“protected in all other aspects”.
OMFG… seriously?
And then there is this comment…
———————————————–
William Gauslow · Grand Forks Central High School
In theory, your on the right track. If enough air pressure is inside the shelter and the shelter is sealed, there’s less chance of smoke getting (in). Get on with it. Great news !
———————————————–
Double OMFG.
But I suppose the ‘clincher’ was this statement in the article itself…
———————————————————–
“The Granite Mountain Hotshots found themselves trapped in a spot on Yarnell Hill where the fire was directly on them and they burned to death, dying in their shelters”.
———————————————————–
‘found themselves trapped”.
Yea. Right. Like General Custer just ‘found himself trapped’ by hostile Indians.
When, oh when, will people realize this is “GOT themselves trapped”, not “FOUND themselves trapped” like they were just walking in a fuel bed like a bunch of tourists and it was suddenly “Oh my God… look… there’s a FIRE! Where did THAT come from!”.
If they had followed the hard-wrought rules of their OWN profession… the only thing they would have ‘found themselves’ doing that day was going HOME to their LOVED ONES, like they were SUPPOSED to.
New shelters! Hell yeah…that’s what we need!!!………………………………….insert largest eyeroll I’ve ever expressed in my entire life…………..right………..HERE!!
Can you understand why I would roll my eyes like that? You don’t? Think real hard for me. You can do it. I know you can.
May as well implement Watchout #19 along with the new shelters…………..RTS, please construct a new proposed Watchout #19 for me with the new shelters. Shine the light of reality for the rest of the world like you do so well.
Thanks in advance!
Woodsman
“The Granite Mountain Hotshots found themselves trapped in a spot on Yarnell Hill where the fire was directly on them and they burned to death, dying in their shelters.”
I am SO sick of this feculence! Yup, they just ‘found themselves trapped … like …’ Ladee f**king dah, look what just happened, we just found ourselves trapped … how TF did that happen?
OMG, they’re just victims, it’s NOT their fault … it’s EVERYONE ELSES FAULT but definitely NOT THEIR fault. WTF, OVER!
We could just add ‘ATTACKS OF THE GOOD IDEA PEOPLE’ to Watch Out #19.
The. Big. Bad. Fire. Just. Came. And. Got. Them.
666666666666 | 999999999999 | 666666666666 ( Huge eyeroll ).
My response could not add to the rest!
“A POTATO BAKER IS A POTATO BAKER IS A POTATO BAKER”
#19— FOLLOW THE ABOVE RUELS AND YOU WILL NEVER HAVE TO USE ONE.
Look at Canada and consider why we continue to play this game ?????
One foot in the Black and bring your safety zone with you.
Avoid high risk indirect line.
LCES Is critical at all times. Every Fucking Minuet follow the 10 and 18. Old School————–
>> On December 8, 2015 at 9:37 pm, Woodsman said…
>>
>> New shelters! Hell yeah…that’s what we need!!!
>> insert largest eyeroll I’ve ever expressed in my entire
>> life…………..right………..HERE!!
Okay… here you go… ( before there were emoticons, this is how an eyeroll would be done in TEXT mode on places like USENET )…
66 | 99 | 66
So the largest one you’ve ever done probably looked like…
666666666666666666 | 999999999999999999 | 666666666666666666
That looks about right, haha!
The topic of improving shelters (again) stirs such emotion in me that it’s hard to keep my thoughts straight. So this may not make much sense but here goes:
A wildfire has no conscience. It does not discriminate. It does not seek out targets to destroy. It is a chemical process and chain reaction called oxidation. It needs oxygen, heat and fuel to self-sustain. If you get in the way of this chemical chain reaction, you become fuel and part of this process. Nobody wants this to happen so we have rules to follow. LCES and Standard Orders. A shelter that is of a size and weight that will protect a firefighter from the energy release from this self-sustaining chemical reaction would be absurdly cumbersome to carry and would introduce several safety concerns of itself…both PHYSICAL and MENTAL.
Safety is an attitude. A culture of safety taught and learned…or not. I don’t care what the shelter is made of, it will not keep you safe without a safe attitude.
Woodsman
Well said young man, well said.
The ONLY human MANUFACTURED safety PPE product that would totally protect us just MIGHT be shipping containers made of the BLACK BOX MATERIAL used to house aircraft voice and flight control data recordings. And we sure the f**k are NOT gonna carry these mama tappers around with us …
WATCH OUT #19
Initiated AFTER the 1985 fire season (Wheeler and Butte Fires)
* OVERHEAD
* GRAVITY (TREES, SNAGS, HAZARD TREES, WIDOW MAKER LIMBS, ETC.)
* ROCKS AND OTHER ROLLING DEBRIS (yes, I know, it’s still gravity … )
* LIGHTNING
* AIRCRAFT
* AERIAL IGNITION
* POWERLINES
* WEATHER MODIFICATION – GEOENGINEERING
So… just for clarification…
The current list of things that are enumerated for WATCH OUT #19 ( DEATH FROM ABOVE ) does NOT include “YOUR SUPERVISOR(S)”?
I actually thought it did.
If it doesn’t… we’ve got a lot of dead ( and/or badly burned ) bodies since June 29, 2013 that pretty much prove it SHOULD be right there on that ‘WATCH OUT’ list.
( Yarnell Fire, Valley Fire, Twisp Fire, etc. )
Whoops… I see that ‘OVERHEAD’ is actually ‘on the list’.
Is that the warning to all WFF to always make extra sure your ( current ) supervisors don’t have their collective heads up their collective asses?
WTKTT,
Yes, something like that. When you read the alleged ‘Factual’ Serious Accident ‘Investigation’ Reports of fatalites and burnovers, fire shelter deployment fires, one finds that OVERHEAD are responsible for making poor decisions, bad decisions, and even no decisions, so that YOU will make the decision for them. If it works out well, fine, and if not, then YOU made the decision, not me, to deflect blame. It is ALWAYS up to the WFF and/or supervisor on-the-ground at the time to make the right, safe, sound decision based on the tried-and-trued Basic WFF Rules.
One must always question their overhead about their experience, training, and the like AND ask if they have ever deployed a fire shelter on a fire assignment. Sometimes, the overhead get pissed about this one, saying things like, ‘You’re accusing us of killing WFF. Negative, your DECISIONS and ACTIONS are killing WFF. It’s NOT f**king personal.
The old times need to come back Forget ICS.
Bake in the day Sector Bosses had 2 or 3 crews on a Sector
Division bosses had 3 Sectors.
Very seldom did we not know each other and the Crew Bosses. If we did not we made an effort to talk and get a feeling for each crew. I have had crews from all different types and mixtures on a Sector or Division.
We were Wild Land Fire Fighters not the Mixture we see today. I was never on a Fire where I did not know some of the overhead and the FIRE BOSS.
Hot Shot Superintendents Refused assignments and biased those refusals on the 10 and 13.
No one filed complaints up or down we worked together.
I am at a total loss in todays culture.
When a Fire goes to hell Get in the Black stay in the Black
Never ever walk thru unburned fuel in those conditions.
And NEVER EVER walk into a unburned CANYON CHIMINY OR CHUTE.
Enough of my ranting it is and always has been
FIGHT FIRE AGGRESIVELY BUT PROVIDE FOR—SAFETY FIRST —-
ANY BODY THAT DOSE NOT UNDERSTAND FIRE FIGHTING ORDER #10 NEEDS TO TURN IN THERE RED CARD AND FIND A DESK JOB.
This if from Moron McDonough’s ADOSH interview:
The ‘Investigator(s)’ asked if they (GMHS) followed/had the 10 and 18 and McDonough’s reply was ‘yes, however I/we had issues with #10 Fight fire aggressively, providing for safety. It’s – it’s hillbilly. It’s what it is. … It’s old. … We’re smart. We’re a lot smarter. … we had 19 people die … they’re [10/18] not working.’ Some paraphrasing here.
They 10/18 don’t just ‘work’ – you actually have to apply them, put them in place, use them.
So then, he and anyone else that thinks that way should absolutely turn in their Red Card.
CORRECTION:
This should read, This IS from Moron McDonough’s ADOSH interview: and NOT “if.”
Bob,,
I have worked in both systems of managing fires and both can be very effective or not, depending on the the overhead does their job (s). As you know, the intent is for a “team” to come in and organize the chaos,this certainly did not happen on this incident. I don’t believe that was a failure of ICS but more a failure of the team members not taking charge of the situation- either making a viable plan or taking a “time out” and creating a plan based on the fire behavior and resources on hand.
I am in total agreement with the rest of your statement!
Fight fire aggressively, provide for safety first (last and always) and one foot in and one foot out of the black.
“I don’t believe that was a failure of ICS but more a failure of the team members not taking charge of the situation”
I’m still pinning this back to decisions made on Saturday night. And I don’t know WHO was responsible for making those decisions.
Bea Day’s FULL Type 2 IMT was available to have taken over that fire, and they were, at that time, mostly on the ground in Prescott that night. Including Bea herself, who, otherwise, lives here near me, in Rio Rancho, New Mexico. But she, and most of her team, were there, in Prescott, that night. Including a bunch of people who showed up at Yarnell the next day (ahem).
The Incident Manager, Roy Hall, spent Sunday on the phone filling in the holes in his team, instead of overseeing the fighting of the fire that he was in charge of.
Russ Shumate, the IC on the fire Saturday, was like, “WHATEVER!” when he requested a Type 2 Team for Sunday and got Roy Hall’s SHORT Type 2 team, in response.
WHATEVER!!
I really see this as a precursor to most of the chaos that ensued on Sunday, including the chaos that, miraculously, didn’t get more than 19 people killed on that fire
I had no idea of that!
And I do eye-rolls on Twitter all the time. Well, they’re called side-eyes, but they mean basically the Sam thing.
So I switched to my iPad to write this (which I actually never use here cuz ……. file access and such.
I don’t know how this will translate but here goes.
That completely inexplicable unpredictable evil and nasty FIRE- Cruella just turned on them and burned them down (Our Counselor’s story at the AMS — amirite?)
??????????
And now I’m re-learning why I hate posting here from my iPad.
Yay! It worked!!
This is so hard because of Travis Turbyfill’s dad being so insistent about it. It may very well be that fire shelters need to be improved.
But I agree that the most important fire-shelter, as we are seeing, is the area between the two ears on the inside of the head paying attention to basic safety rules and principles in spite of what ever pressures are being impressed on the firefighters that control what firefighters are doing.
In all my worst ten years of driving that included driving my daughter across Albuquerque to school and figure-skating through some of the most awful traffic in Albuquerque, I never relied on my air-bags to keep us safe. I relied on paying attention and driving defensively. I never had either an accident or a ticket during those years. I just paid attention to what was happening around me and created and kept a safety buffer around us. While driving through the worst traffic Albuquerque could throw at me.
**
** ERIC MARSH’S CELL PHONE WAS IN HIS SHIRT POCKET
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 6, 2015 at 1:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Each GHMS report had:
>>
>> ‘REPORTED CIRCUMSTANCES OF DEATH
>>
>> On July 1, 2013, Yavapai County officials requested assistance from the Maricopa
>> County Office of the Medical Examiner with the medicolegal death investigations
>> of 19 firefighters who died in the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013. Under the
>> Maricopa County Manager’s authority and direction, the Maricopa County Office
>> of the Medical Examiner examined the firefighters’ for the purpose of forensic
>> identification and postmortem evaluation. The Maricopa County Office of the
>> Medical Examiner also agreed to provide consultative services to investigating
>> authorities and the Yavapai County Medical Examiner. The Yavapai County
>> Medical Examiner agree it will certify the firefighters’ death certificates. …”
>>
>> Procedures occurred on July 2, 2013.
>>
>> Interestingly, it is documented that Marsh had a “CELL PHONE, mirror,and
>> compass in the shirt pocket.”
RTS…
I just wanted to let you know that if you thought for one second I MISSED
this little tidbit… think again.
This is actually HUGE, and thank you for posting it.
Totally out of time tonight but look for another post on this, including a link to a photo that Amanda Marsh published on her PUBLIC Facebook page back around September 28 of this year.
All of a sudden… Amanda Marsh felt the need to publish a photo of a piece of Eric’s SHIRT that she had been given and was told it was the only piece that had survived.
It just happened to be the part of his T-shirt that has the Granite Mountain Logo on it.
It is totally BURNED around the edges… but she posted it anyway and people made comments like “That is so wonderful!”.
I thought it was BIZARRE. Almost ‘macabre’.
Especially coming from someone who has always been carrying the banner of ‘sensitivity’ so high and berating others for even talking about some of the raw ‘details’ surrounding all of this.
TWO quick QUESTIONS for YOU, then, on this one.
When you say “It is documented”… do you mean it states flat-out in either the AUTOPSY and/or the TOXICOLOGY report that Eric Marsh’s ‘cell phone’ was sitting right there in his ‘shirt pocket’ as his body arrived at the Maricopa County ME’s office?
That cellphone NEVER entered the ‘evidence record’ at all. Amanda Marsh eventually said in a public interview she received it back… but never said from WHO.
Also… when you say ‘shirt pocket’… I am assuming you mean the ‘Nomex Shirt’, right?
Amanda Marsh has already proven with her PUBLICLY posted photo that (supposedly) the only thing left of Marsh’s other shirt ( his T-shirt ) was the small area that contained the GM logo.
Here is a link to that PUBLIC photo Amanda ( Beno ) Marsh posted back in September of the charred remains of Eric’s T-Shirt…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.718463201580199.1073741828.706170532809466/907651632661354/?type=3&theater
She posted this one to her PUBLIC ‘Eric Marsh Wildfighter Foundation’ Facebook page and the following is her own comment that accompanies the photo…
————————————————————————–
September 23, 2015
I received all the stuff that Eric had on him when he perished. I found his boots and his socks and what was left of his belt. Most importantly I found what remains of his t-shirt. Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew is all that’s left of his crew shirt. So amazing. It makes me realize how strong the crew was and is and how it will never really die. I am so grateful to have this. It has brought so much happiness to me.
————————————————————————–
I was actually wrong up above.
The photo of that only remaining piece of Marsh’s T-shirt with the burned edges DOES include most of the ‘pocket’ of the T-Shirt as well as the GM logo above it.
So, theoretically, this picture proves that if his cell phone really was in either this pocket, or his Nomex shirt pocket, it might have survived intact.
Amanda Marsh also admitted in a public interview that she eventually got Marsh’s cellphone back. She did not say from WHO, or what condition it was in, or offer any explanation why Marsh’s cellphone never seemed to have entered the evidence record but still, somehow, found its way back to HER.
>> RTS said ( regarding the reports )…
>>
>> Interestingly, it is documented that Marsh had a “CELL PHONE, mirror,and
>> compass in the shirt pocket.”
Again… when you say ‘shirt pocket’… is the report referring to his outer Nomex shirt, or his inner T-shirt?
The PUBLIC photo of the charred remains of his inner T-shirt posted by his wife indicates a cellphone *might* have survived undamaged in that shirt pocket.
All these famous quotes said today-
so let me say one
NEVER COMPLAIN…NEVER EXPLAIN…
”Never complain, never explain,” Mr. Ford once said, after he was arrested for drunken driving.
I say that because I am in pain
SO NEVER COMPLAIN
reading and on page 561 of 688 of Sonny’s doc notes
SO NEVER EXPLAIN
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
>> On December 7, 2015 at 7:41 pm, WTKTT asked…
>>
>> RTS… are you still able to answer some questions we might have
>> about what might be in the ACTUAL documents?
>>
>> For example… is there ANY indication of ‘Time of Death’?
>>
>> What does it SAY in any/all of the documents with regards to TOD?
>>
>> Did they just leave that blank?
>>
>> Reason I ask is that from what I am reading… some of the ‘normal’ testing that
>> can/should be performed to determine the exact state of decomposition for any
>> particular deceased person is the SAME testing that is used to try and accurately
>> determine a “Time of Death”.
>>
>> Is there ANY indication they even attempted to determine that for ANY
>> of the 19 individuals they were required to examine?
>> On December 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm, Robert the Second replied…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> There is NO mention of TIME OF DEATH for any of the GMHS, NONE.
>> There is only mention of CAUSE of death as ACCIDENTAL, with several
>> variations of ‘fighting a wildfire,’ ‘fire related injuries,’ (there were at least
>> 3 Medical Examiners performing procedures ALL day long on July 2, 2013.)
>>
>> And all them mentioned being ‘refrigerated’ prior to the procedures.
Thank you.
Everything I have read so far confirms that at the moment a body is ‘refrigerated’, that stops ALL of the ‘processes’ of decomposition that could possible lead to any ‘extraneous incidental ethyl alcohol production’ in a decomposing body.
So obviously the TIME that happened is important. It would absolutely ‘stop the clock’ on the length of time for any decomposition between TOD ( Time of Death ) and CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).
Sorry… I’ve been doing a lot of reading and the ACRONYMS for some of this stuff are sticking in my head, at this point.
Is there anything resembling TIMES in these documents with regards to WHEN this CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ) took place… and then WHEN the blood samples were actually taken?
Again… from what I am reading… they are certainly SUPPOSED to be these TIME indications.
All kinds of WHO did WHAT, WHEN timestamps… throughout the entire process of receiving, stabilizing and examining the deceased.
It’s Industry Standard. If ANY case, anywhere, anytime involving an ‘accidental death’ ends up going to court… these are all things that both insurance companies AND other lawyers are expecting to find in the reports.
It’s disappointing to learn there is NO indication of “Time of Death” on these reports.
Again… from what I am reading that is basically REQUIRED and something that Insurance companies and lawyers would EXPECT to be there, if and when there’s any consternation about the results of the reports themselves.
It’s also disappointing from the standpoint that it means there doesn’t seem to have been some of the standard ‘testing’ done that is specifically designed to establish the exact ‘decomposition state’ of the body at the start of the examination.
Some of that is the same ‘testing’ used to determine “Time of Death”, which ( as everyone knows ) can actually be done to a very high degree of accuracy these days.
Again… THOSE ‘test results’ that THAT information becomes VERY important if/when there are ‘issues’ regarding the toxicology.
Just ‘describing’ the actual state of decomposition as ‘none’, or ‘early stage’ or ‘moderate’ or ‘heavy’ is not ideal. Only the actual DST ( Decomposition State Testing ) regime is really the ‘way to go’.
Sounds like that wasn’t done at all ( DST ).
** EDGE CASES
The thing I’m still scratching my head over are the EDGE CASES, here.
The problem in determining what the existing BAC results actually might ‘mean’ here seems to lie in explaining these obvious EDGE CASES.
ALL of these men died at relatively the same moment, under the same exact circumstances, subject to the same heat levels and the same trauma… and every one of the bodies experienced the same ‘delay’ between TOD ( Time of Death ) and CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).
SIX of the 19 showed no BAC levels at all. Zero. Zip. Nada.
But TWO of them showed the following…
Travis Carter: .09 g% BAC
Scott Norris: .09 g% BAC
That means that at the same time SIX of the bodies were arriving at the ME office showing no BAC levels attributable to either alcohol ingestion OR any/all decompositional effects… TWO of them were also showing up LEGALLY DRUNK.
( .08 g% BAC is legally drunk in all fifty states of the US of A ).
You yourself said ( down below in this ongoing thread )…
—————————————————————
In some cases, It ( GLUCOSE information ) was specifically listed under a heading as “DECOMPOSITIONAL CHANGES” and other times in a bit more detail, e.g. “Decomposition, early to moderate,” and twice as “Early decomposition.”
—————————————————————
So I count that as THREE indications of just “Early decomposition” to only ONE mention of any “Moderate Decomposition”… and ( apparently ) NO mention of any “Heavy Decomposition” at all.
Well… from everything I am reading… a described state of just “Early Decomposition” from a bona-fide Medical Examiner in no way explains how a cadaver could be showing up at his doorstep as ‘LEGALLY DRUNK’ ( BAC over the legal limit ).
Even in a “Moderate” to “Heavy” state of decomposition, a reading as high as 0.09 would be difficult to ‘write off’ as solely due to ‘decompositional changes’.
Or at least it would be extremely RARE ( but here are TWO showing up that way from the same incident? )
So that remains a ‘head-scratcher’ right there.
Whatever explanation that tries to account for ALL of these tests results MUST be able to explain these ‘edge cases’ whereby…
** 6 are showing up with NO decompositional BAC levels at all.
** 2 are showing up as LEGALLY DRUNK with BAC levels of 0.09, even with a stated decomposition status of ONLY just “Early stage”.
Maybe I haven’t found the right document yet… but from all the ones I’ve read so far that ‘second’ edge case seems to be virtually impossible to just ‘write off’ as pure ‘decompositional changes’.
WTKTT,
The fatalities occurred between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013. They GMHS bodies were transported to Maricopa County on July 1, 2013 and assumed placed in refrigeration. The autopsy procedures took place all day July 2, 2013 from around 8:00 AM until mid-day July 2, 2013 by at least three separate Medical Examiners (ME). NO specific TOD was noted on any GMHS.
You stated “ALL of these men died at relatively the same moment, under the same exact circumstances, SUBJECT TO THE SAME HEAT LEVELS AND THE SAME TRAUMA … and every one of the bodies experienced the same ‘delay’ between TOD ( Time of Death ) and CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).” The same NEAR EXACT circumstances ,yes, but NOT the same heat levels based on individual Carboxyhemoglobin saturation levels.
They were actually NOT all “subject to the same heat levels and the same trauma: based on the Carboxyhemoglobin (pleura fluid) levels in their chests and lungs. These levels ranged from a low of 6% up to a high of 41% with one listed as “inconclusive” Carboxyhemoglobin saturation even though ‘NO EVIDENCE OF SOOT IN AIRWAYS.’
It will be interesting to check these out individually based on their locations when deceased.
The ‘inconclusive’ case also showed signs of “decomposition, early to moderate’ with a BAC 0.02g% ethyl alcohol level. The 0ther ‘early decomposition’ cases were 0.09g% and 0,02g% ethyl alcohol levels respectively.
The AVERAGE range of Carboxyhemoglobin was 17.6%. Of note, are the outliers, or what you refer to as the ‘EDGE CASES.’ And these EDGE CASES would be: Warneke had only 6% Carboxyhemoglobin and NO toxins (Benzene, Toluene, Xylene) and NO ethyl alcohol BAC. And the two 0.09g% ethyl alcohol individuals had 29% and 11% Carboxyhemoglobin respectively with one of these listed as ‘early decomposition.’. One invidual with a 0.02g% ethyl alcohol level and 11% Carboxyhemoglobin saturation level also rated as ‘early decomposition.’
The link below is from a research paper titled ‘Radiographic Manifestations of Acute Smoke Inhalation’ based on firemen and civilian case studies.
http://www.ajronline.org/doi/pdf/10.2214/ajr.129.5.865
And I concur that the “‘second’ edge case seems to be virtually impossible to just ‘write off’ as pure ‘decompositional changes’.”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 7, 2015 at 11:12 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The fatalities occurred between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013.
Accepted time of the burnover has always been 4:43 PM.
I believe someone reported that as the ‘official’ TOD listed on all the death certificates.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The GMHS bodies were transported to Maricopa County on July 1, 2013
>> and assumed placed in refrigeration.
I have confirmed a definite ‘time of arrival’ on that.
AZCENTRAL ( via STATter 911 News Feed )
Published July 1, 2013 by Craig Harris & Michelle Yee Hee Lee
http://www.statter911.com/2013/06/30/report-of-19-firefighters-dead-in-arizonas-yarnell-hill-fire/
—————————————————————–
A somber caravan carried bodies of the 19 firefighers killed battling the Yarnell Hill Fire to Phoenix on Monday, where the Maricopa County Medical Examiner was prepared to receive the fallen men.
The caravan headed south on Arizona 89 at the same time as a press conference in Prescott that featured Gov. Jan Brewer, Prescott Mayor Marlin Kuykendall and Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo. Brewer declared a state emergency, freeing $200,000 of state funds for the firefighting effort.
The vans arrived in downtown Phoenix shortly before 12:30 p.m. The medical examiner will conduct autopsies on all 19 firefighters, said county spokeswoman Cari Gerchick. Yavapai authorities asked for help because the rural county didn’t have the resources to handle so many casualties. “It is the largest mass-casualty event in memory,” Gerchick said.
———————————————————————–
Key sentence…
“The vans arrived in downtown Phoenix shortly before 12:30 PM.
Time of Death: 4:43 PM, Sunday, June 30, 2013 ( Assumed. Could be +/- a few minutes ). Bodies delivered to Maricopa County ME’s Office: 12:30 PM, Monday, July 1, 2013.
That’s a time span of 19 hours and 47 minutes.
Add at least 13 minutes for the vans to be unloaded, and I suppose you could call the total time from “Time of Death” (TOD) to “Cadaver Stabilization” (CS) to be right around 20 hours even.
So we’re definitely about 4 hours UNDER the ’24 hour’ timeframe for the purposes of scanning the research documents.
It’s also worth noting that while the VANS that were used to transport the bodies from Yarnell were not ‘refrigerated’ vans… they were definitely modern vans with full air-conditioning and you can bet money that AC was going full blast from the time the bodies were loaded in Yarnell ( circa 10:00 AM ) until they arrived at the ME’s office ( circa 12:30 PM ). So it doesn’t matter what the temperature was outside for that long drive from Yarnell. The bodies would have been in a ‘temperature controlled’ environment for that whole 2+ hours preceding their arrival in Phoenix.
Also… SUNRISE was at 5:22 AM in Yarnell on July 1, 2013.
So that means that the bodies were only exposed to any sunlight at all that morning for a maximum of about 4.5 hours before being loaded into the air-conditioned vans.
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>> The autopsy procedures took place all day July 2, 2013 from
>> around 8:00 AM until mid-day July 2, 2013 by at least three separate
>> Medical Examiners (ME). NO specific TOD was noted on any GMHS.
The death certificates would have been waiting on the results of the autopsies, so if the ME didn’t lift a finger to determine “Time of Death”, then when they got around to finalizing the death certificates that means someone was there just TELLING them what to write down and they were taking their word for it.
Again… someone said the TOD on all those certificates was fixed at a ‘guess’ of right around 4:43 PM, and there’s never been any significant challenge to that original ‘guess’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You stated “ALL of these men died at relatively the same moment,
>> under the same exact circumstances, SUBJECT TO THE SAME HEAT
>> LEVELS AND THE SAME TRAUMA … and every one of the bodies
>> experienced the same ‘delay’ between TOD ( Time of Death ) and
>> CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).”
>>
>> The same NEAR EXACT circumstances ,yes, but NOT the same heat
>> levels based on individual Carboxyhemoglobin saturation levels.
Yes… I understand… but see below. I’m also NOT seeing any direct ‘correlation’
between those ‘Carboxyhemoglobin saturation levels’ and any kind of automatic
increase and/or reduction in the BAC readings.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> They were actually NOT all “subject to the same heat levels and
>> the same trauma: based on the Carboxyhemoglobin (pleura fluid)
>> levels in their chests and lungs. These levels ranged from a low of
>> 6% up to a high of 41% with one listed as “inconclusive”
>> Carboxyhemoglobin saturation even though
>> ‘NO EVIDENCE OF SOOT IN AIRWAYS.’
>>
>> It will be interesting to check these out individually based on their
>> locations when deceased.
Yes. At some point all the results need to be ‘graphed’ back onto the actual locations of the bodies back at the deployment site.
And also… Yes… the SAIT should have done this as well.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The two 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol individuals had 29% and 11%
>> Carboxyhemoglobin respectively with one of these listed
>> as ‘early decomposition.’
Okay… sooooo… I’m not immediately seeing any direct ‘correlation’ there between the Carboxyhemoglobin levels and the two 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) levels.
One of the 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) level cases had way less than HALF the amount of Carboxyhemoglobin as the other one.
Which of the two Carboxyhemoglobin levels of 29% and 11% applies to the 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) level case that was definitely reported as only being in the ‘early’ stages of decomposition?
Was that the 29% one… or the 11% one?
Also… are you saying there was no indication of ‘decomposition state’ for that other 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) level case at all… or was this other one being reported at some ‘other’ level than just ‘Early stage’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And I concur that the “‘second’ edge case seems to be virtually impossible
>> to just ‘write off’ as pure ‘decompositional changes’.”
If you read what Mr. Bob Powers has already said a number of times below, law enforcement is, apparently, ALLOWED to treat the BAC levels as ‘accurate’ as long as they are obtained with 24 hours.
There is evidence online that that is, in fact, the case and a standard for law enforcement from “sea to shining sea”.
That is… UNLESS the ME definitely says those results are NOT to be trusted as ANY indication of intoxication levels at “Time of Death”.
But some weak statement like “the results are likely” or even “the results are most likely” is not any kind of ‘definitive’ statement at all.
So, technically speaking, if this HAD been a BUS crash with 19 fatalities and the DRIVER had been either Travis Carter ( 09 g% post-mortem BAC ) or Scott Norris ( also 09 g% post-mortem BAC )… then unless there had been a stronger ‘most definitely not’ statement from the ME… law enforcement would probably be legally allowed to assume it was an intoxication-caused crash… write it up that way… and also ANNOUNCE it to the PUBLIC that way.
I’m not kidding about this.
Mr. Powers appears to be 100 percent CORRECT on this.
Law enforcement IS allowed to ‘assume’ results are accurate, if blood samples were obtained within a 24 hour period, and there is no STRONG / DEFINITIVE statement from the ME to the contrary.
And we are well BELOW that ’24 hour’ time limit in this case.
** LIVER / BILE SAMPLES
Are you SURE there is absolutely NOTHING in those reports about Liver tests or Bile sample tests? From everything I am reading… those are also STANDARD tests that are SUPPOSED to be performed for any ‘accidental death’ and/or ‘industrial accident.
** AMPHETAMINES
What’s your take on the amphetamines showing up?
Do you think that’s something a ‘rookie’ would be into just to try and keep up with the others if he’s having trouble doing that?
Don’t forget that one of the leaders of this group was an ex-Marine who loved to dance with ‘Pukie the Clown’ and make others do so as well.
Maybe Grant McKee was just doing ‘all he could’ to keep up.
I am moving this up to the top to make sure Joy doesn’t miss it and can hopefully be encouraged to be more forthcoming with the information that she is apparently sitting on.
joy a collura says
DECEMBER 7, 2015 AT 7:57 AM
Actually the toxicology report is not THE missing element but a missing factor and Gary when all the missing elements surface it is clear and I have been with true clarity since January 2015 and even much clearer after the 2015 wildland firefighters convention…I due to the sensitivity of it just wait on God’s time…yet you did peel a layer away this week but that was just a layer…
Reply
Gary Olson says
DECEMBER 7, 2015 AT 12:14 PM
Golly geez whiz and Jiminy Cricket too…here is an idea. Why don’t you just tell us what you know instead of playing at being the Oracle of Delphi?
sorry for the delay Gary-
I have been at Phnx VA dealing with many areas for Sonny- six different areas so LONG day and my back has consistently spasmed today (very painful) and my pancreas is in a lot of pain and one kidney too and I have shingles and I had very very tight squeezing some lasting 44 seconds some 18 seconds but the longest 2 minutes 31 seconds right under what most women call a left breast yet I lack them but it was a severe squeezing pain that seem to cut off circulation to my hands and feet during it making my left hand lock up claw like —like when I have seizures…I will be brief get to the point of your message than I am going to lay down.
Anyone on any side or any agenda or angle wants to sit with me in person only by appointment only with my legal representation not online or by phone or bumping into me publicly and even with sound recorder I am okay with– I am okay going over where to guide people but for me to do it here on this site would show deep disrespect to the loved ones and homeowners and break a trust with some that spoke it in private—You, Gary, know private information as well and know a certain person and have allowed that person to build a trust with you— you mentioned it to us and I never ever repeated that to a soul—
.
I won’t do it. Nancy Cameron spent 68 years— special loving years with her dream man and had a lovely life with him and her kids and to have one month later lose her home and everything and then fall with health problems when this should of NEVER as Gary would use this word FUCKING SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED—the fire getting out of hand and 19 men dying—
I won’t at all ever place words ONLINE again that would ever place me in a court room.
When my parents divorced and I saw how ugly and how wrong the court room is—
I saw at a young age how judges are not for justice…I also seen in my adult life that what one says online can be used in a court room and so you will not see me reply or speak up personally but I can say the people who directly told me information pertaining the YHF please speak up for Gary—
I can encourage that Gary—
and I think I have done that on this site for a long time.
You seem to have purchased my case…I don’t know why you do not get how I love life and I want to keep loving it away from court rooms—
Gary has been bold and does not fear a court room but I already seen the inside of Markham’s spot and I don’t want any part of it ever again in my life—
Not my job as I did ask very important behind the scenes folks if it was my job and the reply I got was it should not come from you especially without the others documentations—so for that I do know and it is NOT made up that there is MISSING ELEMENTS and that is all I can state-
I can say there is missing elements and I can say it with saying in my humble opinion or even straight up-
cuz’ there is…
you just peeled one layer of the onion that once peeled will have you in tears-
I hear you, Joy.
“Gary has been bold and does not fear a court room but I already seen the inside of Markham’s spot and I don’t want any part of it ever again in my life—”
We’re all, mostly, safely scattered to the winds and can say whatever TF we please, as I have done. You are living in, as John Trudell would say, the belly of the beast. I’ve had my own experience of “being there.”
And I would also say, although I could get slammed for this, that being a woman in these kinds of scenarios is different than being a man. That’s not an excuse or a whine or a complaint or a whatever. It’s a fact.
Namaste.
Typo.
“I’ve had my own experience of ‘being there'” should read:
“I’ve had my own experiences of ‘being there.””
There have been far many more than one.
I agree, and here’s ‘The Women’s Rules’ to prove it:
The Women’s Rules
1. The Female Always makes The Rules.
2. The Rules are subject to change at any time without prior notification.
3. No Male can possibly know all The Rules.
4. If the Female suspects the Male knows all The Rules, she must immediately change some or all of The Rules.
5. The Female is NEVER wrong.
6. If the Female is WRONG, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding which was a direct result of something the Male did or said wrong.
7. If Rule 6 applies, the Male must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.
8. The Female can change her mind at any given point in time.
9. The Male must NEVER change his mind without Express Written Consent from the Female.
10. The Female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The Male must remain calm at ALL times, unless the Female wants him to be angry or upset.
12. The Female must not, under any circumstances, let the Male know whether or not she wants him to be angry or upset.
13. Any attempt to document these rules could result in Bodily Harm.
14. The Male is expected to mind read at all times.
15. If the Female has PMS, all Rules are Null and Void (but the Male will not be told which rules these are).
16. The Female is ready when she is ready.
17. The Male must be ready at all times.
18. The Male who doesn’t abide by the Rules can’t take the heat, lacks backbone and is a wimp.
Okay… before rule number 13 above kicks in and RTS gets the shit kicked out of him… I just have to add the following which happened here TODAY.
It’s deer season here… and on the way to town today my wife and I passed some ‘Wal Mart hunters’. These are the guys who actually buy their guns and ammo from ‘Wal Mart’ and don’t even have a hunting lease anywhere. They pull of the the side of the road, sit in the backs of their pickup trucks drinking beer… and hope a deer just comes walking out of the woods so they can shoot the crap out of it.
On the BACK of the pickup truck, with 3 guys sitting on lawn chairs holding their shotguns, beers in hand, was this BUMPER STICKER ( which my wife laughed at FIRST… which then made it OK for me to laugh… which is actually rule number 19 that you left out ).
The BUMPER STICKER said…
IF A MAN SAYS SOMETHING IN THE FOREST AND THERE IS NO WOMAN AROUND TO HEAR IT… IS HE STILL WRONG?
Perfect! Women are SO awesome though; all we have to do is know and understand ‘The Women’s Rules’ to survive …
An old Irish toast…
Sláinte chuig na fir agus go maire na mná go deo!
Health to the men… but may the women live forever!
SIDENOTE: Been reading all day about cadaver decomposition so a little ‘punchy’ at this point.
QUESTION for you ( RTS )…
Are you still open to answering some more questions about the toxicology reports?
Just in case you are… here are a few I’ve come up with since the last post about it…
1. It is becoming increasingly obvious, via research, that THE most important thing about interpreting these BAC results lies in the handling of the samples. If any post-mortem BAC results are ever ‘argued about’ in court… this is the argument that even prominent ‘lawyer-type’ sites advise attorneys to focus on BECAUSE it’s so important. If the samples were NOT, themselves, refrigerated or frozen and/or the right ‘preservatives’ were not added… then by they time the testing takes place the BAC results can basically NOT be trusted at all. Is there ANY description in there of how the samples were handled and whether the industry-standard ‘preservatives’ were used.
2. Related to above… is there any indication how much TIME passed between when the samples were taken and when the results being reported in the final reports were actually determined? It matters. A LOT.
3. What reports do you actually have? Do you have BOTH the autopsy report(s) AND the toxicology… or just one or the other?
4. There has ALWAYS been a possibility that the incredibly SLOW pace seen by Granite Mountain as they descended to their deaths was because someone ( or more than one of them ) suffered some kind of ‘injury’ on the hike. Is there ANY evidence of any PHYSICAL injury to any of them ( like a sprained ankle, etc. ) in whatever it is you have access to?
Thanks, RTS, I REALLY needed to come across this, and the following comments today.
Four days after a friend of mine, struggling to hold onto a job in a testosterone-fueled hostile work environment, was raped by a co-worker.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder which of your AWESOME rules applies??? One third of all American women are raped in their lifetime (as was I when I was in college). So far, as far as I know, my daughter has not found herself in that one third. As far as I know.
Haw Haw Haw Haw Haw Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck. Bumper Stickers be damned.
My comment was about this:
There was a heated conflict between Joy and Gary regarding how Gary thought Joy should have responded to Karen Fann’s actions and emails and statements. Joy, being right there physically on the scene, was writing about how she couldn’t fight back against Karen in the way Gary (a male safely sitting at his computer in Washington State) thought she should be doing. Or even as sharply as Sonny was writing.
I was trying to see and feel the scene through Joy’s eyes. She’s a true warrior, but her risk factor (including emotionally), as a woman right there physically on the scene, is much higher, in this kind of a situation, than any man’s. THAT is what I was speaking about.
All the crappola HAW HAW HAWS that you started, and others continued are patently offensive to me.
I have spent the last couple of days wondering, in my mind, all these things considered, how much I am going to spend my time continuing to contribute to the work on this site.
You may think it’s HAW HAW HAW HAW funny.
But I don’t.
Marti,
You posted: “Thanks, RTS, I REALLY needed to come across this, and the following comments today.”
Because I am not sure what you talking about here I will ask you: What is the “THIS, AND THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS ” that you are referring to?
“The Women’s Rules
1. The Female Always makes The Rules.
2. The Rules are subject to change at any time without prior notification.
3. No Male can possibly know all The Rules.
4. If the Female suspects the Male knows all The Rules, she must immediately change some or all of The Rules.
5. The Female is NEVER wrong.
6. If the Female is WRONG, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding which was a direct result of something the Male did or said wrong.
7. If Rule 6 applies, the Male must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.
8. The Female can change her mind at any given point in time.
9. The Male must NEVER change his mind without Express Written Consent from the Female.
10. The Female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The Male must remain calm at ALL times, unless the Female wants him to be angry or upset.
12. The Female must not, under any circumstances, let the Male know whether or not she wants him to be angry or upset.”
Marti,
Okay, fair enough. I posted that in response to your post:
‘And I would also say, although I could get slammed for this, that being a woman in these kinds of scenarios is different than being a man. That’s not an excuse or a whine or a complaint or a whatever. It’s a fact.”
I did it to kinda lighten things up a bit. It was getting pretty tense with all the toxicology stuff.
WTKTT had it figured pretty close when he posted: “Okay… before rule number 13 above kicks in and RTS gets the shit kicked out of him…”
You kinda kicked my ass for hurting you with my post. I meant no harm. I apologize Marti for doing that to you.
Thank you, RTS.
I really really really appreciate that.
Namaste.
I am sitting here trying to decide to be done with politics here. I really wish I could figure out how to do that. Because some of the issues we are discussing here are actually political.
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from covering up what happened on this fire? As well as the other fires we have been discussing.
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from cutting the budgets from agencies that have to fight wildfires so that they, in turn, have to cut budgets for preventing them?
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from allowing/encouraging people to live/build with, essentially, no regulations and no liabilities in wildfire-prone locations, while expecting entities like the USFS and other land-management agencies to protect them at high costs to tax-payers?
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from denying that greenhouse-effect carbon-emissions-based climate/weather changes are occurring?
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from continuing to underpay wildland firefighters?
Given that we are gathered here around this campfire to discuss what went wrong, specifically, on the Yarnell Hill Wildfire, it may be the case that we shouldn’t be wandering off into the peripheral political questions that I’m asking in my above questions.
But if we are truly attempting to discover the Lessons that need to be Learned about why all of this is happening, I don’t see how we can avoid the political issues that are underpinning what is happening.
I don’t think this fire happened in a political vacuum.
But, maybe that is not the scope of what we should be discussing. Because it could get divisive and counter-productive.
I just don’t know.
Namaste, all.
I believe the GMIHC (in general) were drinking alcohol almost right up to the time they went back on the clock on June 30, 2013. And I believe their BAC from the toxicology tests prove that.
I think everyone understands this already, but I want to clearly state it in case there is any question in anyone’s mind. I do not hold anyone on the crew responsible for their being called out to the Yarnell Hill Fire with the exception of Eric Marsh. For whatever it is worth, I do not even hold Jesse Steed responsible for that because I believe Marsh had already accepted the assignment without consulting with him and I think it has been made clear to us,or at least me, that Marsh was not the kind of hotshot crew boss who listened to his staff. The crew thought they has been released and were going to be on some well deserved days off.
And I still believe that BAC and the effects of dealing with it meant all of the things we have been discussing the past couple of days. BUT…in the interest of not withholding that which may be exculpatory evidence, here is a counterpoint.
WARNING…DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO READ SOME VERY GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS OF THE CONDITION OF THE GMIHC, WE CONTINUE TO HAVE OUR HEARTS BROKEN EVEN MORE ALMOST EVERY TIME WE TURN AROUND.
“According to Gary Olson, ten of the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots had ethyl alcohol in their post-mortem blood samples but not in their vitreous humor (VH, eye fluid) samples. Those that had ethyl alcohol in their VH samples had what is considered to be a de minimus post-mortem VH ethyl alcohol level (e.g. likely due to decomposition and not drinking).
This data suggests to me that the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots who had alcohol in their bloodstream at the time of the post-mortem blood draw (or testing) likely had such not because they were drinking alcohol on the fire but because they had GLUCOSE (e.g. from Gatorade or some such) in their blood at the time of death such that there was basically fermentation due to being burned over and then left outside in the heat. (Forgive me for that language, but that is the most direct way to say it.)
Mind you, I am not a forensic medical examiner, and I only know a little bit about this area of research, but the brief explanation (as my non-scientific mind understands it) is as follows:
1. GLUCOSE and “Fermentation” or “Microbial Contamination:” If a person dies with glucose in their blood (from, say, GATORADE, which is known for its low osmolality), that glucose is known to feed fermentation which will then produce alcohol that will in turn result in essentially a false-positive BAC in post-mortem blood testing (e.g. the higher levels of alcohol did not exist in the bloodstream BEFORE death – it was a post-mortem phenomenon).
2. Decomposition: The chances of this fermentation or microbial contamination occurring goes up as decomposition and time before the post-mortem blood draw and ultimate testing increases.
3. HEAT accelerates DECOMPOSITION: If you put dead bodies through a broiling hot fire, you are going to accelerate decomposition. Multiple of the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots actually had flesh burned off of their bodies – that gives me a sense of how badly they were decomposed (how much heat their bodies were subjected to). Laying out in the sun for a couple of days is one thing; laying in a 700 degree (or hotter) wildland fire is entirely another. Those two things do not even compare. Then wait another day or two before doing the post-mortem blood draw. I’d be surprised if every single one of the 19 guys did not have some significant “fermentation” or “microbial contamination” with respect to their post-mortem blood draws.
If you truly want to consider whether alcohol was at play with the 19 deceased men, pay careful attention to the vitreous humor (VH, eye fluid) samples from the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots. If the VH samples from the 19 deceased men had high alcohol percentages inconsistent with normal decomposition in heat and a fire, then I would think harder about whether or not someone was swilling hooch on the fire or hard, hard-core the night before. But apparently the VH data was within the range of what would normally be expected (either normal or just minimally increased due to decomposition). (And, FYI, if some of the guys did not have VH data released, presumably that is because their eyes were fried by the fire such that the ME could not get a decent VH sample. Presumably those guys were the guys on the crew who died supine – face-up – such that their eyes were more directly exposed to the heat and the VH dried up. Forgive me for being so blunt. This is a horrible topic.)”
Oh…and one more thing, one of the reasons I believe this is just another smoke screen is because of the six who did not have any BAC. Everyone was guzzling Gatorade that hot and terrible day.
After extensive research… it’s an absolute FACT in the ‘forensics business’ that the ‘reliability’ of post-mortem blood samples ( from ANYWHERE in the body ) totally depends on the relative state of decomposition at the time the samples were ( finally ) taken.
That is why it is ALSO ‘industry standard’ to also include in the report the DETAILS of the condition of the body at the time the examination was begun… so that those DETAILS regarding the state of decomposition can be used as the base-level CONTEXT for interpreting the OTHER test results.
If those DETAILS about the actual state of decomposition for each and every one of the bodies examined is MISSING from those autopsy / toxicology reports… it’s a ‘botch job’.
It’s not like this is ‘new stuff’.
Bodies are examined/tested for BAC pretty much all day, every day, 24 hours a day, across this country and the world.
The techniques are known, the testing is standardized, and the interpretation of the results is now also standardized.
And from everything I have read… if there is ANY evidence of even light to moderate decomposition present at the start of the examination… then any BAC levels from anywhere in the body that are reading LESS than 0.10g are considered to be ‘statistically inconclusive’, unless there is OTHER more reliable evidence obtained to prove that these indicators are NOT the result of normal decomposition.
All that being said… you are RIGHT.
The fact that 6 ( SIX ) of the bodies showed no BAC levels at all ( either due to actual alcohol consumption OR the effects of decomposition ) is going to remain the ‘wildcard’ there when trying to interpret the other results.
If one is going to say that the other 13 ( THIRTEEN ) test results can ALL be attributed to pure ‘decomposition’ effects… then the fact that 6 ( SIX ) of the same bodies, from the same place, subject to the same trauma and the same length of time between expiration and autopsy showed nothing at all with regards to BAC levels is going to REMAIN sitting there on the table like a big fat turd.
Well…even if we concede a .01 due to decomposition for the sake of the argument, there is still a big problem for someone to wish away…right?
And I don’t think you meant to write…0.10g, right?
gee, or did you?
Yes. That’s a ZERO and a DECIMAL, then a ONE and a ZERO.
.10 percent.
From what I have read… once there is evidence of decomposition it is SOP in the ‘forensics business’ to start treating ANY BAC of LESS than 0.10 ( ZERO dot ONE ZERO ) to be ‘statistically inconclusive’.
So…
0.11 – Statistically CONCLUSIVE
0.10 – Statistically inconclusive
0.09 – Statistically inconclusing
0.08 – ditto
0.07 – ditto
On down to 0.00.
But again ( I think I’m going to put the following into a MACRO on a function key to save the typing )….
It ALL DEPENDS on the ACTUAL state of decomposition of the body at the time the blood samples were taken. That is why it is so important for that to ALSO be indicated in any autopsy / toxicology report because it ends up the base-level context for interpreting all the other test results.
Well…OK then.
By the way… in case anyone was wondering what ‘how drunk is drunk’ is ( I was ) regarding these ‘percentages’…
Here is something from online…
The table below lists some possible interpretations
of blood ethanol results:
Blood Ethanol Result: Interpretation
———————————————————
Equal to or above 80 mg/dL (0.08%):
Legal intoxication in all states
80 to 400 mg/dL (0.08% to 0.40%):
Increasing impairment and depression of central nervous system likely
Above 400 mg/dL (>0.40%):
Loss of consciousness likely; potentially fatal
——————————————————–
So at +0.40 you are either passed out ( or dead )
That means 0.20 to 0.30 is ‘shit faced’ ( but still standing )
If Mr. Powers was right about an average loss ( once you stop drinking ) of 0.01 per hour… that means if/when you get ‘shit faced’… even 24 hours later you will still be showing some BAC levels.
The .01 reduction comes from the Law enforcement training
Factoid—–
Depending on weight from between 40 minuets and 60 minuets or in simple terms we said 1 hour. being in a big county and making arrests out on the fringes trans port took 1 to 2 hours. When we got to the Jail a person that was .08 to .10 could blow below .08 at the jail which had the only official test machine that the court would accept.
Thus the rule of thumb. That has changed with the new kits that are carried now that can be used on the stop a well.
Once the body dies the BAC dose not reduce as the blood stops flowing and filtration stops. The BAC from drinking will remain constant and we go back to the question concerning the increase due to Decomposition and the reason for further tests..
The Statement STASTICALLY INCONCLUSIVE is not going to float with the Prosecutor when the new level is now ..08. I have not ever seen that on a Toxicology report. in Law Enforcement.
You go Bob!
Full Disclosure – I am a big fan of the crew being alcohol impaired because that is not their fault, they legitimately thought they were going to be on days off and all (most) good hotshots get drunk on days off so…
That should also relieve them of any collateral blame due to Group Think also known as the Abilene Paradox. So…I am just sayin’.
Although I am still going to hang my hard hat on the fact that 6 showed no signs BAC due to decomposition.
And no…I am not forgetting that some of those who loved the GMIHC are reading this callous clinical discussion of their loved ones and I know it is making everybody who is participating in this discussion as sick at heart as it is making me.
But it can’t be helped.
And it may get worse depending on the reports and the % of burns and locations of 1st. 2nd. and 3rd. degree burning and Charring even without pictures it won’t be a nice thought.
As I have said before the blame still lies with MARSH only now we have one more reason.
WTKTT,
Thanks for your research above. Going back through the reports again, I found some evidence of what you are referring to above regarding decomposition.
In only one case, it was listed under the heading of ‘SPECIAL STUDIES,’ followed by: “Vitreous humor, red top tube, is collected for electrolyte analysis, with the following results: …” In all others it just mentions the observed changes.
I list only those showing GLUCOSE in varying degrees. Four (4) GMHS, GLUCOSE findings ranged anywhere from 2 mg.mL to a high of 3 mg/mL. There were two (2) individuals at 2 mg/mL and <2 mg/mL respectively; one (1) at eleven (11) mg/mL; and one at thirty-one (31) mg/mL respectively.
In some cases, It was specifically listed under a heading as "DECOMPOSITIONAL CHANGES" and other times in a bit more detail, e.g. "Decomposition, early to moderate," and twice as "Early decomposition."
The interpretation of BAC in autopsy specimens from deceased individuals is highly contentious and great care is needed to reach valid conclusions. Vitreous humor is the recommended body fluid for determination of ethanol in postmortem toxicology to help establish whether the deceased had consumed ethanol before death. Both vitreous and illiac (cardiac) samples were taken.
The actual ethyl alcohol present in these cases ran the gamut, and ranged from 0.01g% to 0.09g%. I concede that translating the BAC into the amount of alcohol that was consumed is also subject to considerable uncertainty, however, it was interesting to note that several of the individuals having 0.02g% and above had varying amounts of IBUPROFEN in their blood suggesting hangover headaches to me.
I defer further analysis to you and others, despite the fact that the SAIT should have done all this.
RTS…
Thank you for all that… but I think it’s time to fish or cut bait here.
You are now ASKING us to ‘evaluate’ the results of autopsy / toxicology reports just based on what you are TELLING us… and ( as the above post shows ) there is obviously important information in the reports that is only coming out in ‘dribs or drabs’… or if we happen to ask the right question.
I am NOT asking you to ‘publish the reports’ that you have obviously obtained or have free access to.
But can you at least say if there are some constraints in whatever agreement it took for you to get these that would PREVENT you from ‘publishing them’.
And I mean the ACTUAL documents… and not just this ‘I’ll tell you what it says” stuff.
If you are now ASKING us to evaluate the content of documents that are obviously in your possession… I think we have a right to know why we can’t just see the documents themselves?
Forgot to mention…
The fact that the documents seem to mention ‘early’ decomposition more often than ‘moderate’ ( only once, for one body? ) is significant.
That DOES put some additional ‘context’ onto the BAC samples themselves.
From what I am reading/researching ‘out there’… a definitive description of only an ‘early’ state of decomposition coming from a bona-fide Medical Examiner would NOT account for BAC levels being as high as 0.09 just because of any decompositional processes.
So that means something.
It very much means that some of the BAC levels might easily be just some COMBINATION of both valid BAC levels at time of death AND ( some ) additional statistical ‘bump’ due to ( some ) decomposition.
So it’s not “all one thing and not the other”.
It’s more like “Some of one thing and some of the other”.
WTKTT,
Gary Olson says
December 7, 2015 at 11:32 am
Citing from an attorney’s point of view:
“If you truly want to consider whether alcohol was at play with the 19 deceased men,PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION TO THE VITREOUS HUMOR (VH, EYE FLUID) samples from the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots. If the VH samples from the 19 deceased men had high alcohol percentages inconsistent with normal decomposition in heat and a fire, then I would think harder about whether or not someone was swilling hooch on the fire or hard, hard-core the night before. But apparently the VH data was within the range of what would normally be expected (either normal or just minimally increased due to decomposition).”
YES, THE VH DATA WAS WITHIN RANGE OF WHAT WOULD NORMALLY BE EXPECTED.
I posted yesterday “In a few, the Medical Examiner noted “The ethyl alcohol detected in cardiac blood and vitreous was most likely due to decompositional changes.””
WTKTT,
For the time being, yes, there are constraints to me publishing the ACTUAL documents.
Thank you. I understand.
Are you still able to answer some questions we might have about what might be in the ACTUAL documents?
For example… is there ANY indication of ‘Time of Death’?
What does it SAY in any/all of the documents with regards to TOD?
Did they just leave that blank?
Reason I ask is that from what I am reading… some of the ‘normal’ testing that can/should be performed to determine the exact state of decomposition for any particular deceased person is the SAME testing that is used to try and accurately determine a “Time of Death”.
Is there ANY indication they even attempted to determine that for ANY of the 19 individuals they were required to examine?
WTKTT,
There is NO mention of TIME OF DEATH for any of the GMHS, NONE. There is only mention of CAUSE of death as ACCIDENTAL, with several variations of ‘fighting a wildfire,’ ‘fire related injuries,’ (there were at least 3 Medical Examiners performing procedures ALL day long on July 2, 2013.)
And all them mentioned being ‘refrigerated’ prior to the procedures.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on December 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There is NO mention of TIME OF
>> DEATH for any of the GMHS, NONE.
>>
>> And all them mentioned being
>> ‘refrigerated’ prior to the procedures.
Thank you again, RTS.
Two important pieces of information.
The moment of ‘refrigeration’ is also known as ‘Cadaver Stabilization’ (CS) and it immediately STOPS any/all processes that even might be taking place and producing extraneous amounts of ethyl alcohol.
I posted a longer Reply ( with another quick question ) up above as a new parent comment.
Clicking the link below takes you to it…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-318261
Gary,
This reads like something the BWS would write, just like an attorney.
Gatorade causing the ethyl alcohol BAC amounts to be that high totally ignores the FACTS!? Give me a break!
Yup…a defense attorney who is pushing an alternative agenda, but I was trained not to withhold exculpatory evidence, so I have done my due diligence.
Correction. I should have said, “what MAY be exculpatory evidence”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 7, 2015 at 12:36 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Gatorade causing the ethyl alcohol BAC amounts to be that
>> high totally ignores the FACTS!? Give me a break!
Whoever wrote that is NOT wrong.
It can happen.
From everything I have now read… if there are ANY signs of even light to moderate decomposition seen at the start of the autopsy… then any blood samples have to be totally interpreted within the context of the AMOUNT of decomposition that has already taken place.
In those case ( even just light to moderate decomposition ) it is ‘industry standard’ for ME’s to say that any BAC levels less than 0.10g are ‘statistically inconclusive’.
That is why it is SO IMPORTANT for the examiner’s to RECORD ( in detail ) the actual state of decomposition of the body that is there before them when they begin their examination.
That is going to be the base-level CONTEXT for any test results that come OUT of the autopsy / toxicology.
If these Granite Mountain autopsy / toxicology reports do NOT contain detailed descriptions and/or other decomposition-related test results for each and every body that was examined… then it was a total ‘botch job’.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 7, 2015 at 11:32 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
.> I believe the GMIHC (in general) were drinking alcohol almost right
>> up to the time they went back on the clock on June 30, 2013.
It’s possible SOME of them were, yes.
Former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch’s father ( Jeff Bunch ) runs Moctezuma’s bar on Whisky Row and was there on Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
He might recall how much McDonough, Zuppiger and MacKenzie had to drink that night, and whether they were, in fact, drinking until the normal closing time of 2:00 AM.
As for the others, only more testimony from wives, family and/or friends who might be in a position to know could fill out the picture there.
According to Kyle Dickman’s book… there was a ‘white board’ at Granite Mountain’s Station 7 with the title ‘Daily Physical Percentage’ on it. As the men were checking in around 5:00 AM Sunday morning, June 30, 2013, they were supposed to jot down some indication of what they thought they had “left in the tank”.
From page 186 of Kyle Dickman’s book…
———————————————————
Marsh had decided to sleep at the station. It was more convenient than making the hour-long round-trip home to the ranch. When the men started trickling in at around 5:00 AM, he was already up, drinking his fancy coffee. He’d brewed a cup from the Jetboild he carried in his line gear pack.
On the “Daily Physical Percentages” whiteboard, some of the guys had tried to estimate what they had in the tank.
Chris MacKenzie said he was at 77 percent.
Scott Norris said he was at 74 percent.
Eric Marsh said he was only at 68 percent.
Others turned it into a joke.
Andrew Ashcraft said he was “Stache-less”
Grant McKee said he was “10 squared”
Donut simple said “Hell Ya”.
———————————————————
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> And I believe their BAC from the toxicology tests prove that.
What little has been published ( below ) from the toxicology tests does nothing of the sort.
It SUGGESTS some things… but not enough of the report has been published to PROVE anything.
Example: It’s obvious by now that the value of those BAC levels TOTALLY depends on the amount of ‘decomposition’ that had already taken place before the blood samples could be drawn. Any medical examiner worth his license would have also given a good indication of that in the reports themselves, so the results could be interpreted against THOSE findings.
We haven’t seen any of that so far ( indication of actual condition of the bodies and state of decomposition when blood samples were taken ).
If that information is NOT in the reports… then we are talking ‘amateur hour’ on the part of the Medical Examiner(s).
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> I think everyone understands this already, but I want to clearly state it
>> in case there is any question in anyone’s mind. I do not hold anyone on
>> the crew responsible for their being called out to the Yarnell Hill Fire with
>> the exception of Eric Marsh. For whatever it is worth, I do not even hold
>> Jesse Steed responsible for that because I believe Marsh had already
>> accepted the assignment without consulting with him and I think it has
>> been made clear to us,or at least me, that Marsh was not the kind of hotshot
>> crew boss who listened to his staff. The crew thought they has been
>> released and were going to be on some well deserved days off.
Yes. We are talking about a RECALL situation here.
The men were all DISMISSED sometime early on Saturday evening ( Robert Caldwell supposedly walked through the door of his house and was home for dinner at 7:30 PM ) and ALL of these men had several hours top begin doing whatever they normally do on the night before a full day off.
Marsh (supposedly) ‘accepted’ the Yarnell assignment WHILE he was having dinner at the Prescott Brewing Company with his wife in the 8:00 PM to 9:00 PM timeframe… but there is no full record of when ALL of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were finally ‘RECALLED’ and fully notified that they now had to report to GM Station 7 at 5:00 AM Sunday morning.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> In the interest of not withholding that which may be
>> exculpatory evidence, here is a counterpoint.
>>
>> “According to Gary Olson, ten of the 19 deceased Granite Mountain
>> Hotshots had ethyl alcohol in their post-mortem blood samples but not
>> in their vitreous humor (VH, eye fluid) samples. Those that had ethyl alcohol
>> in their VH samples had what is considered to be a de minimus
>> post-mortem VH ethyl alcohol level (e.g. likely due to decomposition
>> and not drinking).
Where is this ‘counterpoint’ actually coming from?
Is that you speaking about yourself in the 3rd person, or is this something someone has written elsewhere now being posted here?
Regardless of the origin… whoever is speaking there is CORRECT.
From everything I have read… depending on the state of decompostion of the bodies… any post-mortem VH alcohol percentages less than 0.10g are considered ‘statistically inconclusive’.
It ALL depends on the state of ‘decomposition’, which SHOULD also be mentioned in the reports and is easily measured by other tests.
Example: If the driver of a fatal single-car accident dies, and the body is transported to the ME within just an hour or so and immediately placed in a cool, dry environment, then it is ‘industry standard forensics’ to assume that NO significant decomposition has begun and the BAC levels can be trusted to indicate whether that person was drunk when they died… or not.
However… if a body is found in a closed up garage in Houston in August and has only been deceased for 4 or 5 hours… a HUGE amount of decomposition would have already been taking place and the BAC levels could already be reading in the 0.08g to 0.09g range for that reason alone. It is not an ‘absolute’ that it will happen… but it is now ‘highly likely’.
So it ALL DEPENDS on time, decomposition, and the quality of the blood samples.
More about this later ( still researching ).
As for the rest of what whoever that was ‘speaking’ had to say about GLUCOSE and Vitreous Humor sampling…
…I’m not seeing anything being said that doesn’t fit the same research I’ve been reading.
Everything being said there can be considered ‘accurate’.
Once again… ALL of these ‘findings’ and ‘numbers’ ( at least the minimal amount that’s been published so far ) depends on how long it was before the blood samples were actually taken and the actual state of decomposition at that time.
** TARPS WERE PLACED ON THE BODIES AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE
Remember… sometime on Sunday night a group of unknown fireman were (illegally) allowed to walk all over the ‘scene’ and place TARPS over ALL of the bodies out there in that STILL HOT environment.
Forget the fact that we now have people trapsing all over the site before any police detective had been allowed to examine it… placing those tarps over those bodies out there in that warm/hot environment was the WORST thing that could have been done and just one more reason why that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.
That act alone could have hugely ACCELERATED the decomposition process, and have then led to to some of the BAC numbers that have been published below.
Again ( I’m going to start sounding like a broken record on this one ) there are OTHER TESTS that can/should have been done to indicate the exact ‘state of decomposition’ of each of the bodies as the autopsy itself was being performed.
It would be THESE other test results / observations that then MUST be used to put the BAC numbers into ‘context’ and give some indication if they can be attributed to decomposition, or not.
I think your estimates on decomposition are off based on my research.
The body decomposes at different rates and under different conditions.
Covering the bodies after dark with no sun on them would not create more heat, also the night time temperatures would be cooler. Some time in the morning of the First the bodies were loaded and began their travel to Maricopa County So time in the sun was minimal.
Most information I have been able to obtain says the first 24 hours are not very high in decomposition for internal organs.
Unless the body was laying in direct sun for an extended period of time.
And one statement said it took 5 days of high heat in the desert for the BAC to show .08 g%. BAC in one of the tests..
If they were transported and put into a cold Mortuary environment in less than 24 hours or by 5 PM on the first then the Decomposition would have been slowed considerably.
Their are severial ways to test for a true BAC using different organs and location of blood draws including the Bladder.
My information says the bodies were cold at the time of testing. I do not have the times but that should also be on each individual report.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 7, 2015 at 2:57 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I think your estimates on decomposition are off based on my research.
.>> The body decomposes at different rates and under different conditions.
Absolutely… and I think just this little exchange right now proves that one can find any number of ‘examples’ that swing to/from the extreme edge cases of ‘accelerated’ decomposition ( for a variety of reasons ) and ‘decelerated decomposition’ to ‘arrested decomposition’ ( also for a variety of reasons ).
So it’s really not worth ‘going there’.
The only thing that’s relevant here is the ACTUAL condition of the ACTUAL 19 bodies in question.
Whether the covering of those bodies with those tarps out in that hot environment of the box canyon overnight made any difference in how fast they were going to start decomposing is not very ‘provable’…
…but I will bet you a dollar to a donut it certainly didn’t HELP.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If they were transported and put into a cold Mortuary
>> environment in less than 24 hours or by 5 PM on the
>> first then the Decomposition would have been slowed
>> considerably.
Yes. That’s a fact. How much decomposition might have taken place BEFORE then could only then be discovered during the examination(s) themselves… and SHOULD have been DETAILED in the reports… because that base-level context is what can influence all the other test results.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their are severial ways to test for a true BAC using different
>> organs and location of blood draws including the Bladder.
Yes… just as there are several ways and several other standard TESTS that can indicate the actual ‘level of decomposition’ at the start of the examination. Were THOSE tests done?
I mean… we KNOW these bodies weren’t like a standard in-the-city traffic accident where a fatality can end up in ‘cold storage’ at the local ME’s office within an HOUR of expiration.
In a case like that… it is actually ‘industry standard’ to assume no decomposition at all and the BAC levels from just about any sample are also considered to be ‘highly accurate’.
We also know these bodies weren’t decomposing for ‘days’ before they reached cold storage.
It’s somewhere in-between those two examples… and only the ME himself could/should have indicated what the actual state of decomposition was for each and every body be was required to examine.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> My information says the bodies were cold at the time of testing.
>> I do not have the times but that should also be on each
>> individual report.
I got the impression below that you, yourself, have full copies of the
reports. Is that not the case?
I have got some information but no I do not have the Full reports if I did
I would have posted them. My info is coming in dribbles which I am following up on Gary’s info he released.
We need the full disclosure and signed documents as you always say.
I agree. Trying to make conclusions from no official documents is way out not desirable.
There are a lot of things that should have been answered by the Medical Examiner and as far as I can tell were not. So the documents may not give us much more if additional tests were not followed up on.
I am trying to get as much information from Friends in Law Enforcement and the Computer. So far none of those have changed my original belief but supported it.
From what I understand Fermentation that creates ethyl alcohol starts in the stomach and spreads into the blood, that dose take some time depending on the environment the body is in. In most cases BAC of .03 and above would not be considered as decomposition until after 48 hours. Law enforcement and Prosecutors us the BAC as actual if it was taken in the first 48 hours.
In most cases there is other procedures to determine the difference from Decomposition and ingested Alcohol.
It dose not look like those were preformed at this time.
From what I have been told.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 7, 2015 at 3:59 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> We need the full disclosure and signed documents
>> as you always say. I agree. Trying to make conclusions
>> from no official documents is way out not desirable.
Agree.
That being said… I don’t mean to downplay the information that IS now available. It means something.
Exactly WHAT is the only remaining question.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There are a lot of things that should have been answered
>> by the Medical Examiner and as far as I can tell were not.
>> So the documents may not give us much more if
>> additional tests were not followed up on.
That’s right… but still a lot of ‘unknowns’ there.
Maybe the information that seems to be missing right now to put a ‘context’ onto the toxicology ( As in… the exact amount of decomposition detected for each and every body ) really is there somewhere. Could be back in the ‘autopsy’ report versus any pure ‘toxicology’ report. Have to look at the ACTUAL documents side-by-side to be sure.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Law enforcement and Prosecutors us the BAC as
>> actual if it was taken in the first 48 hours.
There is also evidence online ‘out there’ to support that… but again… anywhere beyond just ‘a few hours’ and if a case based on that goes to court… the lawyers can start calling the ‘experts’ who will all start saying that you can’t ALWAYS make that assumption.
They will all start pointing back to the actual autopsy / toxicology and start debating about the ACTUAL ‘decomposition state’ of the body at the time the samples were taken.. especially if there was any ‘delay’ at all in getting the expired body into cold storage.
Everyone takes if for granted as they listen to the news and whatnot that one of the things Medical Examiners are supposed to be good at is establishing ‘Time of Death’…
…but no one ever really wonders… “HOW do they do that?”
Well… you and I know how, and some of the gory details are not worth mentioning at this time.
Suffice it to say that once you die… certain ‘processes’ begin and those processes themselves start to leave chemical ‘footprints’.
By measuring these… any good ME can ‘work backwards’ from the current state of decomposition and actually get pretty damn accurate about when these ‘processes’ STARTED.
Hence… fairly accurate ‘Time of Death’.
So did the ME do that for any Granite Mountain crewmember?
Is there even any mention of any ATTEMPT to establish TOD?
If there is… then that means there WAS a pretty accurate measurement made of the ACTUAL state of decomposition… which can then be ‘compared’ to the toxicology results to see how accurate they might be with regards to things like BAC.
We actually know Eric Marsh, the primary decision maker out there that day, died around 4:39 PM along with the others.
We now also know his official BAC from a standard post-mortem blood sample lwas in the 0.03 range.
According to the ‘dissipation’ theory of 0.01 per hour, that means that at 10:30 PM the night before when he probably laid down to sleep at the Granite Mountain Station 7 ( instead of going home that night )… he *COULD* have had a BAC of .21.
A BAC of .21 is ‘pretty drunk’. Depending on your tolerance for alcohol… that would be ‘still standing up but shit-faced’ for most adults.
So if there is enough evidence to prove that the BAC levels showing in the toxicology were NOT the result of any ‘decompositon effects’… then Marsh really *could* have been at .21 at 10:30 the night before and it would still show as 0.03 in his post-mortem BAC.
It’s POSSIBLE. It really is.
But we’d still have to see the FULL results and be sure about the decompositional state when his blood sample was actually taken.
I am not talking about myself in the third person, sometimes I talk about myself using the royal “we”, but not this time.
The person in question who submitted what MAY be exculpatory evidence for our edification wishes to remain anonymous.
Well… that’s fine… but as I said above…
Regardless of the origin ( of those ‘counterpoint’ quotes )… whoever is speaking there is CORRECT.
From everything I have read… depending on the state of decompostion of the bodies… any post-mortem VH alcohol percentages less than 0.10g are considered ‘statistically inconclusive’.
It ALL depends on the state of ‘decomposition’, which SHOULD also be mentioned in the reports and is easily measured by other tests.
To add to the Discussion on BAC There is quite a bit of info on the Computer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16782292
——interpretating results of ethanol analysis postmortem.
Some other things I have run across state the is quite a bit of differing readings between the VAC and BAC. The VAC is not a 100% accurate in the equivalent to the BAC.
The fact that the ME made a statement to the Fact that he stated MAY BE is not a Cort of law statement. MORE ANNALISSES SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO DETERMIN WHAT THE BAC WAS ATTRIBUTED TO.
The same goes to the other statement THE ME PROVIDED NO ANALYSIS.
When the BAC was showing those higher readings from .09 to .02 g% There should have been further testing to determine the Source. Evidently that was not done nor any coloration between those with no BAC verses those with BAC. That is the responsibility of the ME.
The requirements for a court of law are the conclusions of the Coroner on their tests not the non conclusions or the May Be statement. An industrial accident would need the Factual information on DRUGS and BAC to determine if they were Causative agents to the Accident.
Like every thing else in this investigation no one investigated deep enough to give ACCURATE ANSWERS.
No one wants to know the facts. ———- Nothing happened just move on.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 7, 2015 at 11:01 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> To add to the Discussion on BAC There is quite a bit of info on the Computer.
Yes, there is. An AMAZING amount, actually.
We all tend to forget how COMMON this testing really is. It goes on 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, all over this country ( and the world ).
In just about any case where an autopsy is required/requested… these tests are done.
Yes… it can get COMPLICATED… but not all THAT complicated, either.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16782292
>>
>> ——interpretating results of ethanol analysis postmortem.
>>
>> Some other things I have run across state the is quite a bit of differing
>> readings between the VAC and BAC. The VAC is not a 100% accurate
>> in the equivalent to the BAC.
Yes. I’ve seen the same research papers.
It ALL DEPENDS on the state of DECOMPOSITION.
>> Bob Powers said.
>>
>> The fact that the ME made a statement to the Fact that he stated MAY BE
>> is not a Cort of law statement. MORE ANNALISSES SHOULD HAVE BEEN
>> DONE TO DETERMIN WHAT THE BAC WAS ATTRIBUTED TO.
Yes… such as the ‘actual state of decomposition’ at the start of the examination.
There are OTHER ‘standard’ TESTS for that, as well, and then THOSE results are used as the context for all the other test results.
There SHOULD be some DETAIL about the state of decomposition included in ALL of those autopsy / toxicology reports. If it’s not there… then it’s a ‘botch job’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The same goes to the other statement THE ME PROVIDED NO ANALYSIS.
>> When the BAC was showing those higher readings from .09 to .02 g%
>> There should have been further testing to determine the Source.
>> Evidently that was not done nor any coloration between those with
>> no BAC verses those with BAC. That is the responsibility of the ME.
Also yes. The fact that the ME had 13 ( THIRTEEN ) bodies he was required to examine that DID show SOME BAC levels… and then 6 ( SIX ) more bodies from the same ‘accident’ site and subjected to the same trauma and transport delays that did NOT show any BAC levels whatsoever is something that he should have COMMENTED on… and provided at least his own base-level explanation for those differing results.
Apparently, he didn’t.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The requirements for a court of law are the conclusions of the Coroner
>> on their tests not the non conclusions or the May Be statement.
Correct. If the ME knew that the body had been transported to refigeration within an hour of expiration… and he found upwards of 0.09g BAC… then the ‘standard’ in the industry is to call those results ‘statistically reliable’ and indicating a level of ‘intoxication at death’ that exceeds the legal standards in all 50 states.
However… if there is ANY evidence of even light to moderate decomposition present at the time the initial blood samples are taken… the ‘industry standard’ is also to consider any BAC results LESS than 0.10g to be ‘statistically inconclusing’ due to the possible effects of decomposition. Further detailed testing must then be done.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> An industrial accident would need the Factual information on DRUGS
>> and BAC to determine if they were Causative agents to the Accident.
No question. Standard procedure.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Like every thing else in this investigation no one investigated deep
>> enough to give ACCURATE ANSWERS.
>>
>> No one wants to know the facts. ———- Nothing happened just move on.
As far as I know… only small ‘parts’ of the autopsy / toxicokogy reports have been published. There’s not enough there to know the ‘full story’, or even whether there
really is enough there to PROVE anything at all.
But if there are no detailed descriptions and/or other test results specifically designed to show the actual state of decomposition at the time the blood samples were taken… then those BAC results can probably never really be trusted ( in a court of law ) at all.
I said, “3. The loved ones were never going to speak or allow anyone else to speak the truth either. They want the marble white statues, the accolades, and “The Legend of The 19” and as much money as they can get far more than they want the truth to be known. I have given up caring what the families think at all. Not one of them has reached out to me and told how much they appreciate the sacrifice my father made for the security of their country or the life of pain my mother had to endure…without any money or help. So…”
OK…I have to take this one back…and I’m a Dick! Is anybody surprised?
Thank you.
I am not wanting to change who you are yet I’m such a sensitive person and know some of the loved ones and it was harsh n inaccurate…
It is however odd 19 men died and the lack of public participation of all the people you seen in the media who publicly seeped with such intensity yet vanished from the public since. As if they pulled the world in to mourn along with them but don’t want to know truth…
Seeped should be weeped
Actually should be wept
Absolutely this, Joy:
“the lack of public participation of all the people you seen in the media who publicly seeped [sik wept] with such intensity yet vanished from the public since. As if they pulled the world in to mourn along with them but don’t want to know truth…”
Sets my teeth on edge every time I think about it and always has.
Gary you wrote:
“I said, “3. The loved ones were never going to speak or allow anyone else to speak the truth either. They want the marble white statues, the accolades, and “The Legend of The 19” and as much money as they can get far more than they want the truth to be known.”
And then you said you would retract that. I wouldn’t.
I think it’s true, and it’s not a new concept here. We’ve been saying some version of that for months. The only “loved one” who hasn’t caved (yet), apparently, is Grant McKee’s father. Amirite?
So, in that spirit, I’ll repost here what I wrote downstream, before I was seeing (weird page loading?) all the stuff being posted up here.
=================================================
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 7, 2015 AT 8:00 AM
Actually, I like this term that you coined downstream:
“queen of quid pro quo”
ALL things considered.
Completely appropriate.
Dear “Honorable” Queen 0f Quid Pro Quo Karen Fann.
Plus, it looks awesome and sounds awesome.
Just my two sense worth.
Proud to be an “arm-chair quarterback civilian”!!!
Yes, you are right (I think) and those are the ones I am referring to. So….
Oh…and one more thing. I an not clever enough to come up that that title for Fann, but someone I know was, .and I latched onto it because I LOVE it!
Tee-hee!
All artists are thieves.
“A fool creates. A genius steals”.
Origin: Unknown
As an actual artist, I do a bit of both.
Alchemy rules.
Correction…I misread what you said. I don’t know about Grant’s father, I was referring to his mother. And what she had to say tore my heart out, even though it was supportive of me…may God bless her broken heart.
” I was referring to his mother”
And I had her in mind when I wrote what I wrote, even though it’s Grant’s father’s suit that is still “live.”
And, yes, her comments passed on to us, essentially helped me stay here. I was completely moved by what she was saying.
Gary,
I don’t think you need to apologise for anything, As you say “you are YOU” and many thanks for it, you’ve moved this along at a hell of a pace recently, and uncovered some brown and really smelly stuff!!!!
Joy,
I have learned that for people to dislike/despise/hate/consider me an enemy, I don’t even have to have done anything to them, or for me to even know them. You just have to be “different” to them, and the very mention of your name will set their teeth on edge. Long may it continue! Also “You are YOU” and many thanks for it.
All,
I’ve been really busy with life but have been following all this at a distance, and probably about 24 hours behind the curve, since you have all been incredibly prolific in your investigations and writing recently.
This Rabbit Hole we’re/you’re headed down got deep and dark REAL quick. I’m ASTOUNDED at the stuff that has been found and shared, even now! I’m hoping this will snowball, and more will follow quickly, maybe we will see the answers needed to fill in the gaps. As long as the questions keep being asked, it’s amazing what you hae all teased out of this. The “professional” investigations post fire – what a joke compared to you guys.
Buckle up people, we’re in for a bumpy ride, and Gary is driving.
“I’ll tell you what I’m blathering about… I’ve got information man! New shit has come to light!” – The Dude
Yes, and to quote the Dude even further, “This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head. Fortunately, I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.”
“The GMIHC Families” are not a monolithic group and it was wrong and insensitive for me to write like they are. I have been told more than once in my life that I am like a bull in a china shop. And sometimes I break things.
You know…I was just sitting here listening to some music and a thought occurred to me that I want to share with you, since you are among my closest friends.
I have been saying, we all have been saying, for years now that what happened to the GMIHC made absolutely no sense. We have all been trying to explain the inexplicable.
That has now changed. Far be it from me to say we know everything, but what happened now makes perfect sense to me. Everyone has done a really good job the last couple of days explaining why the crew left the black. And I feel just a little bit better knowing that and I hope you do as well.
Actually the toxicology report is not THE missing element but a missing factor and Gary when all the missing elements surface it is clear and I have been with true clarity since January 2015 and even much clearer after the 2015 wildland firefighters convention…I due to the sensitivity of it just wait on God’s time…yet you did peel a layer away this week but that was just a layer…
Golly geez whiz and Jiminy Cricket too…here is an idea. Why don’t you just tell us what you know instead of playing at being the Oracle of Delphi?
I hope most of you know this but just in case there are still some day dreamers out there…
1. WTKTT tells you how it is supposed to be.
2. Marti tells you how she thinks it should be.
3. I tell you how it is.
Your government does not work like they told it was supposed to in your civics class in high school. Especially in places like Arizona with people like Karen Fann in charge. So…
Whoever did get the toxicology reports is the real hero of this entire rotten mess. We would all still be in the dark without them. Because I am pretty sure that person had to go through a whole bunch of hoops and a lot more time, trouble and expense than the rest of us were willing to even try and go through.
“Your government does not work like they told it was supposed to in your civics class in high school. Especially in places like Arizona”
I was required to take Civics in High School. I don’t think ANYBODY is required to take Civics any more. And, yes, I agree, I found out how it IS rather than how it was TAUGHT fairly early on after High School. But at least I knew how it was supposed to be. At least I had a framework.
These days nobody even has a CLUE how it’s supposed to be. It’s just …… Whatevers!!
Well, except for those White Supremacists who demand their faux-Christian Supremacist Science-denying faux-Second-Amendment-worshipping fear-mongering Rapture-Awaiting uber-Right-Wingers who DEMAND it all be the way THEY think it’s supposed to be. Of course they didn’t learn that in any damned Civics Class!
Especially in places like Arizona.
Marti,
You posted: “… faux-Christian Supremacist Science-denying faux-Second-Amendment-worshipping fear-mongering Rapture-Awaiting uber-Right-Wingers …”
Would you put that in a bit more plain English for me instead of Reedeese?
Thanks
Ya know those folks who want to turn the US of A into a Christian (only) Nation and who are mighty afeared “Obummer is coming for your guns!!!” and are steadily (and dangerously for some of us) chipping away at womens’ reproductive rights over our own bodies and like to portray our President as a muslim monkey and fly their Confederate flags every chance they get (including some in Arizona who are currently terrorizing a friend of mine) and think “climate change” is a lying “libertad” way to make profits??
Does that help a teensy bit?
I know I shouldn’t be doing political rants here, but writing about Civics made it impossible to not do that.
Cheers!
PS Some of them are even fire-fighters.
Including one who recently retired from the Prescott Fire Department. Ahem.
Marti,
Yes, thanks for clarifying for me. It’s still a free country and the whole “Tolerance” thing goes both ways, e.g. I they have to tolerate them, so they have to tolerate me. It always amazes me how Liberals think and reason, very illogically.
Liberalism has been determined to be a Mental Disorder you know.
http://conservativepapers.com/news/2015/05/15/absolute-proof-liberalism-is-a-mental-disorder/
And yes, there are those that would write about the converse.
One of my favorites is this: Left-wing American shock jock Thom Hartmann – has told his listeners that “climate change deniers should be in prison.” Prison? Really? What happened to the First Amendment.
RTS. I respect you VASTLY too much to get down into the mud here.
It’s clear we are in SERIOUSLY different camps, politically speaking, here. And I don’t want to fight about it with you. I probably should have kept my mouth shut after all.
I am thinking that what we are trying to accomplish together here is too important to waste time, energy, oxygen, and trust battling about conservative vs liberal politics in this space.
To go back to what Gary originally said. The system doesn’t work the way we (at least I and others and maybe even you?) were taught in Civics it is supposed to.
You may think it should operate in a particular direction; I may think it should operate in a different direction.
My uncle is a Phoenix Conservative whose politics were baked into stone when he was growing up in Chicago in the midst of the currupt Democratic Machine (which is, apparently, still running). I still love him dearly, although I disagree with him on a large number of things.
On this blog, I have agree with you over and over and over and over again, and you have taught me a ton of things that I really appreciate your opening my eyes to.
I am still a born and bred Liberal (daughter of a card-carrying NAACP member who was also the top meteorologist of the atmospheric nuclear weapons testing program and also an outspoken climate-change witness for decades) who was a Feminist Environmentalist United Church of Christ Minister for 35 years.
The reason I stay here is because I, as a (Gary-endorsed) dedicated arm-chair quarterback civilian/citizen, am serious about trying to figure out how to end the apparent LMA (land management agency) etc (apparently including NTSB via your account) top-down driven NEGLIGENCE when it comes to the safety of Wildland FireFighters in an age of increasing (for a variety of reasons) risks to their lives.
Peace?
Oh and PS, regarding:
“One of my favorites is this: Left-wing American shock jock Thom Hartmann – has told his listeners that “climate change deniers should be in prison.”
As someone who has listened to Thom Hartmann for a long, long time, I don’t believe he said that for a moment.
Marti,
A “born and bred Liberal (daughter of a card-carrying NAACP member.” Really? There’s a gene for that?
No problem Marti, we’re both professionals in our own realms and professionals can cut past the personal politics and agree to disagree or whatever.
You said “As someone who has listened to Thom Hartmann for a long, long time, I don’t believe he said that for a moment.” Well then, here is Thom Hartmann spewing about placing ‘CLIMATE CHANGE DENIERS’ IN JAIL. One of MANY video clips!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go33Llz8hFs
At 1:47, he asks the interviewee, “Why should you not be in jail … .I’m asking that as a serious question.”
At 4:45 and beyond he says “I think, frankly, people who do that (support fossil fuels and deny climate change) should be in jail … so why should you not be in jail? … I am calling you a criminal … Why should you not be in jail? … that’s what you should be in jail for, is saying that kind of stuff. … You are killing people … once again, why should you not be prosecuted for racketeering (twice) … whether or not you should be in jail.” ending at 9:07
I don’t take it personal. It was the Communist Party in the 1950’s that came up with the saying “You should never discuss politics or religion.” But that gosh darn, pesky First Amendment keeps getting in the way.
I too have learned a lot from you and enjoy your posts and will continue to do so. Thanks.
Well whadda ya know.
One of the ‘discoveries’ here on this forum is that people at opposite ends of the political spectrum really CAN work together towards a goal.
All they have to do is realize it’s important to do so.
How refreshing.
“One of the ‘discoveries’ here on this forum is that people at opposite ends of the political spectrum really CAN work together towards a goal.”
I am trying. But, all things considered, I’m not guaranteeing I will be able to continue.
#LoveTrumpsHate — Hillary Clinton, yesterday.
Flame me.
I agree with Thom.
He’s not saying that regular people should be jailed for denying human-caused climate change, (as the right-wingers I was describing want women and their doctors to be jailed (or worse) for exercising their constitutional right to abortion, or their Trump-led islamophobic campaign against people likr Minnesota’s Representative Keith Ellison.
He’s paralleling the corporate-funded (most egregiously by Exxon) public-relations campaigning to stop climate-change science with what happened regarding RICO and tobacco companies. He and Sheldon Whitehouse are articulating that parallel. And I agree with that.
That doesn’t mean you, personally, should be jailed. It means RICO should apply to what certain companies are doing. Based on how it was applied, successfully, to tobacco companies.
I guess you, a wildland firefghter, don’t believe we should be stopping practices that are contributing to the greenhouse effect. And that you don’t believe that increasingly loading the atmosphere with carbon dioxide contributes to the climate changes (with their intensified weather effects).
As the daughter of a climate scientist, I respectfully disagree.
And………..
I do believe this is not the appropriate place to argue these things.
This whole thing began with a comment by Gary regarding Civics. And how real-world reality doesn’t correspond to how Civics are/were taught.
If we want the machine to work in our favor regarding this whole Yarnell thing, that, to me, means we should want it to work without bias and corruption.
What should be good for the goose should be good for the gander.
To me, what you have said, says to me you want to have the cake and eat it too.
Namaste.
And also, this:
“Whoever did get the toxicology reports is the real hero of this entire rotten mess. We would all still be in the dark without them. Because I am pretty sure that person had to go through a whole bunch of hoops and a lot more time, trouble and expense than the rest of us were willing to even try and go through.”
If there is any way you can tunnel back to that person and thank him/her, please add my name to the list of those saying, THANK YOU!!
He or she is reading this blog…so he or she knows.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 6, 2015 at 10:52 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>>
>> 1. WTKTT tells you how it is supposed to be.
Yep. ONE of the hats I wear. Glad to do it.
19 taxpayer-paid civil servants went to work in a totally taxpayer
funded workplace on June 30, 2013.
All day long… they had the absolute BEST view of the ‘fire’ they were working.
Better than ANYONE ELSE working there that day.
The ONLY way they could have achieved a BETTER view of the fire would have been to actually been up in 19 airplanes themselves and ‘looking down’ at the situation.
They were SUPPOSED to go home to their families.
They didn’t. They all died horribly.
Please discuss.
You are correct. One hundred percent correct.
Joy A. Collura says
DECEMBER 6, 2015 AT 12:15 PM
in what Gary said—“my screwin’ with that fuckin’ BITCH (gender specific) Karen Fann”
my reply- I have heard from people who know her from the 70’s and before her Chino Valley days and current and you are being pretty harsh Gary— even with the red flags I have witnessed I would not place her in such category as such above— yet LOOKING INTO things from a FBI perspective may help piece all this into perspective to properly assess the YHF but name calling
??????????????
With all due respect Joy…Karen Fann THREATENED ME and told me to no longer send her emails to an email box that is part of her job as a representative of the people. So…I afraid my name calling stands…
I think Karen Fann is a FUCKIN’ BITCH and I think Chief Dan Fraijo is MY FUCKIN” BITCH! And if anybody wants me…I am in Olympia WA…bring your A game motherfuckers. I have been waiting for you.
Oh…and one more thing. Do you think I could have ever stepped forward from the back of the bus to run a hotshot crew at age 23 that was made up in part guy’s who were 10 years older than me and some of them Vietnam combat vets if I didn’t have confidence in myself to handle whatever comes up in my life? However misplaced that confidence might be.
In fact, you have reminded me of just how much I disliked Karen Fann’s email and so I am going to send her one every day until a judge orders me to stop.
I don’t believe a judge will ever order me to stop sending emails to a representative of the people’s official email even though I have a potty mouth. Here is the email I am going to sent to that Fxxxxx’ Bxxxx Karen Fann.
Now…the Arizona Department of Public Safety may come looking for me if I make a terrorist threat to harm said representative of the people, but I am not going to do that. I am just going to demand an apology from her and then I will stop emailing here every day.
Dear Fxxxxx’ Bxxxx..you owe me an apology for threatening me and telling me to stop sending legitimate emails concerning the people’s business to a duly elected representative of the people @ an email address they pay for that purpose.
After I have received your apology, I will stop sending you emails to remind you that you are not greater than the principles our founding used to build our great nation upon. Amen.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution;
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
gary olson
Today at 2:47 PM
To
Karen Fann
Message body
Dear Fxxxxx’ Bxxxx…you owe me an apology for threatening me and telling me to stop sending legitimate emails concerning the people’s business to a duly elected representative of the people @ an email address they pay for that purpose.
After I have received your apology, I will stop sending you emails to remind you that you are not greater than the principles our founding used to build our great nation upon. Amen.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution;
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
your mouth is worse than some sailors mouth and truckers—
I understand the freedom of speech and I get you are agitated by her reply yet remember she has been on the forefront to help the loved ones through a very horrific time and even though time has passed it is not easy and so maybe she stands FIRM in that what you said is not her belief or perspective in this and maybe she is not trying to engage in any further discussions on the topic— it is very sensitive— and personal even though Sonny feels these were public employees— they are human just like one of us and deserve or have some right in this modern world to privacy I would think…Maybe I am wrong. I do belief the report will help future firefighters. I do believe it is such a sensitive topic it should be discussed with that in mind…so why the F this and that…relax…
this coming from the lady who faced court because Karen Fann and Marsh’s wife orchestrated it?
Joy has only wanted to put out the truth and now that these new documents came out we see that Eric was under the influence and as a recovering alcoholic how is that possible?
The results from the toxicology reports should humble the those two leaders families if they were bragging on them because those leaders were responsible for the lives of the 17 other men and even Donut.
What is sad is the very place they went down I knew it was a no-no and I am not even a firefighter. Fortunately I went back for Joy or should could of been killed as well.
As far as the cussing, in America we have the freedom of speech. If you don’t like my bad language than walk away from me.
It’s a frustrating thing for all of us who want t know the truth that despite shredding of documents (FELONY) and despite all the redactions and omissions and never looking into cell records or further photos, a fire dept that would not respond, and so much more that this site has pointed out including the FBI has not run to investigate this obvious coverup into the 19 deaths of our wildland firefighters.
You can see they were there in a heartbeat when 14 of our citizens were killed by terrorists yet they allow this white wash to continue on without getting to the facts and they never will unless they do interview. How much more important is it to investigate 19 deaths plus the many deaths since the fire (retardant drop NH3)
Are we going to let this carnage continue and hide the facts from future firemen?
WHY in the HELL isn’t that area a training ground with a small memorial that points out all the errors that you can make as a wildlland firefighter (they broke every rule in the book) and would be alibe today if they had followed simple basic rules.
How is it an old miner logger cowboy had better sense than to go down in that basin than 19 elite educated firefighters?
How is it they would not listen Rick MacKenzie – a life ong resident of this area- and cowboy hunter who well knew the terrain t stay out of that thick manzinita if that fire got down in it
I guess I will sit out on this topic.
I am understanding to alot just why is Sonny replying at all to me—
I am right here making sure you recover well—talk to me not the publc and I can tell you Fann had nothing to do with my case and it was just to determine the meeting Fann attended since there was two memorials. I learned that much in 2015,,,and enough for me…have to stop peaking during this public discussions—good to see a mising element ot but not in the manner I saw it but I guess I cannot imagine any other way—yet I did think a loved one would have been the one to speak not Gary—
I don’t have much to add to what Sonny said, except a couple of things.
1. I have repeatedly said that I have regressed to my happy place in my golden years. And that is to the back of the hotshot bus in my mind. I am channeling my olde hotshot self and I have since the beginning of this incident. If I wasn’t, I never would have contacted JD in the first place to help give him the inside story that has made this thread possible. I am who I am. There are many people who know everything I know, but they have always hid in the shadows because they are too afraid of what other people will think of them and how they will be judged so they hide themselves AND their knowledge. A few courageous ones have stepped forward…may God bless them.
2. My life has been filled with people who have loved me and have always said wonderful things about me. But all of them with the exception of my dear wife have always added, “We would love you more if only you would….” To which I have always replied, you have to accept the bad side of me if you continue to benefit from the good side of me. If you don’t want anything to do with me, neither the good nor the bad…that’s OK with me, but don’t expect to benefit from my attributes if that is the way you feel.
3. The loved ones were never going to speak or allow anyone else to speak the truth either. They want the marble white statues, the accolades, and “The Legend of The 19” and as much money as they can get far more than they want the truth to be known. I have given up caring what the families think at all. Not one of them has reached out to me and told how much they appreciate the sacrifice my father made for the security of their country or the life of pain my mother had to endure…without any money or help. So…
4. I do not have the toxicology reports and nor have I ever seen them. I deeply regret that I stole this scoop from the person that it rightfully belonged too. But now that I have, it is about time…FUCKIN’ A! Let’s get it on!
5. You people created the person that I became. I spent my adult lifetime risking everything I had going places in your name that you couldn’t …or wouldn’t go, to help solve your problems for you. How do you expect me to act now?
Gary,
Yes indeed, you are definitely the product of our ‘Tax Dollars At Work.’ OMG, what a sobering thought!?
And you did what you felt was the right thing to do with the toxicology information you had …. it needed to be brought out into the open.
At this point, two famous quotes come to mind:
“The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.” Albert Einstein
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood for something in your life.” Winston Churchill
Well…we can always look at the bright side. I always tried to do the right thing by the people who were paying my salary…and I still am.
There is no need for anyone to ever thank me for anything. I owe all of you. Thank you for making me who I am. Please consider anything I do a small return on your investment.
If you think Karen Fann is not or has not been behind the bad things that have happened to you, you really are clueless. Karen Fann is in very deep with Amanda Marsh and her crowd, you are their enemy.
It just seems off the charts to imagine me as anyone’s enemy—
I can see someone not comprehending me or thinks I speak in riddles or circles or do things with passion or if overly tired and spent with frustration emotions but enemy—
??????????????????????????????????????????????
I can see someone thinking when I am al dolled up and glam and sitting next to A list celebs and government folks in the back of the limo heading to hot spot & think she has to be someone if she hangs out with them when genuinely I am no one except with confidence one of the top natural culinary/ice artist…I can see how someone thinks I am homeless when I hiked in June 2008 from Congress Arizona to Filibertos in Wickenberg andback to Congress the desert way to have my water fall off the bluff and I had to make choice in over 100 degree weather—take more time to get the water or keep going and head towards Highway 89 to than be unconscious on highway 89 to have elderly couple pass me and shop and see me again on way back and stop and put me in vehicle thinking I was homeless to bring me to er…to find out the real details floored them after I awoke…hanging out with Sonny I rarely wear makeup anymore or get dolled up but if I do I rid of the chemicals and use charcoal and beet powder and chapstick—as you seen in all the photos…
I do not keep up with modern society and focus all my energy on intake and I ain’t intaking I am someone’ s enemy—nonsense.
I think what happen was I was spent and frustrated by much stalking and it was growing old…like who am I? Yet I have documented the aftrmath and yes I have been stalked but Tex too. That was a red flag but Charley Moseley said it was natural for eyewitness to be stalked and even at times magically disappear but my family and friends love my energy too much and I have on record to be autopsied and I have perimeter cameras in every part I live life—
and as well as have just recently increased it due to the stalking. Marti saw the one man and it could of been Jim Karel’s double—
If anyone who reads this feels I am your enemy— I am not.
Do not waste your energy —
I am here to try and find solutions not have barriers—
let’s talk through it—
480-280-5813
I do not have to:win” anyone to any side…from the get go I always felt THIS SHOULD OF NEVER HAPPENED to these men…
I like coming to IM and I like the individualism here and I am not trying to TELL Gary how to BE but I am making him aware the people who peak on here I would hate for them to read what I read because she has to spend another Holiday without her sweetheart of amost 70 years and her home loss and all of it and to think these men were what I have been reading without the proper resources of actual loved ones confirming it just seemed hard to swallow and read…
If Fann or anyone views me such way—call me—let’s create togetherness not what I see here and rip on someone because maybe just maybe she was with a PLATE FULL when you wrote her and she felt from her seat a different perception and end of topic— its a waysensitive topic Gary than you say you do or don’t have report yet you said you attached it in her email so who knows—
If you have information I don’t—
Sonny would say YEAH naiveness-
What’s the enmity all about?
I think my affiliation to this site has been noted to me by Joanna Dodder to stay away from here but ts my only freedom of speech to help the traumas I feel from the YHF even if I mean nothing to some I do need an outlet to share and it is a place to share my new information as it comes-
so again anyone out there that views me as their enemy-
call me…
or change your perception because to me I feel I have no enemies just people who choose to not be around me because I do not fit their way of thinking, Gary.
I hope I answered you but maybe you will say…riddles again Joy.
I’m sorry the world is not the place you think it is, or should be, or wish it was, but it is not.
Dulled senses? Impaired thought? Clouded Judgment? No, I am not talking about the Granite Mountain HS crew.
I am talking about State Representative Karen Fann and her stunning, vitriol-laced email to Gary. It’s days later and I am STILL shocked by it. This was a public servant speaking to a member of the public. In the course of her job.
DULLED SENSES must be the explanation for why she entirely forgot that it is the public who pays her salary, it is the public whom she is ‘supposed’ to be working for AND listening to whenever they contact her. Responding by attempting to ‘shoot the messenger’ like she did, in such an openly documented fashion during the performance of that job … it is a clear indication of some IMPAIRED THOUGHT. And, her appalling, gratuitous threat and subsequent ultimatum contained in that email indicates some seriously CLOUDED JUDGMENT.
Karen Fann’s job is as ‘representative of the people’. And that, too, is NOT a job with the fucking “Military” or the “Mafia” or the “Masons.”
Judging from that email she wrote to Gary, I seriously question whether she is Fit for Duty.
Thank you Mr. J. Stout…you read it exactly like she intended it to read. What the fuck is wrong with Joy I don’t understand?
Actually, I like this term that you coined downstream:
“queen of quid pro quo”
ALL things considered.
Completely appropriate.
Dear “Honorable” Queen 0f Quid Pro Quo Karen Fann.
Plus, it looks awesome and sounds awesome.
Just my two sense worth.
Proud to be an “arm-chair quarterback civilian”!!!
Something’s wrong with this page. It’s not updating right.
I refreshed it three times this morning, and only after I posted this comment did I see all the comments already here from this morning. Weird.
Having just read what I read upstream I stand by my above comment even more.
Anybody can come up with “fucking bitch.” It takes true class to come up with “Queen of Quid Pro Quo.”
I think maybe even Joy would be OK with that. It really is true. But less pooh-flinging. Especially at this time of year.
And, so to be true to my form as saying what I think it should be, I’ll just say, you rock, Gary!!
Thanks for saying, relentlessly, how it IS! Whether we, or anybody else, likes it or not.
And, also, I’ll throw in an additional thank you to RTS for your comments downstream about the helicopter crash on the Iron Complex Fire. Eye-opening.
Namaste, everybody!
And PS.
I think, given the email she sent you, Gary, I wouldn’t let her off the hook an inch.
There is absolutely no justification for what she said to you and how she said it.
Marti,
Thanks for the thanks on the Iron Complex debacle. You’re most welcome
wwtktt-
you are correct about their conditions and these new toxicology reports verify what I saw up close June 30, 2013. I thought they looked spent but now realize some were hungover and spent from the hot arduos climb they had made up to the point where they passed us about 200 yards below the fire edge. The reason they did not continue their connection line was because they had run into a boulderous field and just beyond that was dense growth of manzinita covering the south side of that canyon that led up to the old mine. Likely, that fire had already advanced down the mountain and could not continue such line to connect. In fact, just beyond the old grader is a small mountain that we watched fire over take in less than 14 minutes from 12:15 to 12:30. Since that fire on that range is probably a mile further than where we observed the original fire that morning at about 9:30am you can bet it had already advanced down below where they meant to connect to the road up to the old mines. We were just not in position to see it but the people’s hero Donut would know these facts but never made it to SAIR or public.
I meant to add was Donut too hungover to recall and how good would his perceptions be even so-
I got an idea that what he was seeing in his mind was a cold bottle of beer on a hot day.
‘IT’S OLD, IT’S HILLBILLY’ McDonough was looking for a place to DEPLOY his fire shelter in a DEPLOYMENTS ZONE rather than get to a true Safety Zone, according to two media interviews, if I remember correctly.
WTKTT pointed out from the Deployment site News Conference: “Even while standing exactly where these men died… he [PFD Wildland Battalion Chief Willis]
enthusiastically defended the ‘site’ that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed chose to ‘deploy’. He called it “the BEST PLACE IN THIS BOWL” for a deployment….
Our WFF fire shelter training specifically states to AVOID CHIMNEYS, CHUTES, AND BOWLS …. In the ‘Selecting Your Deployment Site’ section, in Figure 3— it warns us ‘Keep away from narrow draws, chutes, and chimneys. They tend to funnel smoke, flames, and hot gases that can damage your shelter.” REALLY? DAMAGE YOUR SHELTER? WTF!? How about it will get you killed!
I contend that this was just more PFD municipal, structure, wildland fire influence here. The Attack of the Blue Shirts.
Thanks for being back, Sonny!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply to sonny post on December 6, 2015 at 9:45 am
>> sonny said…
>>
>> This toxicology information belongs to the public and should have been
>> revealed from the beginning. These are public employees. What killed
>> them should be public information. This information will help change the
>> way people are allowed to endanger others.
Agree.
Looking at ALL the available evidence ( and testimony ) to try and determine the COMPLETE STORY is just one of those things where people will always fall into one of the following two categories…
To those who understand why it needs to be done, no explanation is necessary.
To those who do not… no explanation is possible.
And it’s really not the responsibility of those who fall into the first category to beat their heads against the wall trying to EXPLAIN it to the ‘other category’.
Either you ‘get it’ ( the importance of knowing )… or you don’t.
>> sonny also said…
>>
>> Now, about the nyquil. A teaspoon or tablespoon of nyquil will have no
>> more change in your alcohol level than say a tablespoon of brandy. Now,
>> however if you are drinking a bottle of it than expect some change.
Regarding Nyquil / Dayquil… yes… there is *some* (small) amount of alcohol content.
Says so on the bottle. There IS an ‘alcohol free’ version of ‘DayQuil… but you have to
be sure and buy that version of it if you want no alcohol content at all.
Joy Collura also said…
———————————————————
nyquil comes to play for one of the loved ones…and certain regular over the counter stuff will show up as alcohol level increased so PLEASE I encourage the ones I know KNOW—speak up
———————————————————
There did seem to be a number of ‘colds’ going around in the GM Crew that last week of June. Brendan McDonough was supposedly ‘out with a cold’ for the two days prior to Yarnell and there is evidence that other GM crew were ‘fighting a cold’ as well.
When Roxanne Warneke ( William ‘Billy’ Warneke’s widow ) did her extensive 2-part interview with AZCENTRAL… she said that Billy had, in fact, been ‘fighting a cold’ and when the contents of his smaller pack that he had left in the Crew Carrier were returned to her, there was a bottle of DayQuil in it…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire: Strength of love’s memory (Part 2)
A two-part interview with Roxanne Warneke
Published: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 9:56 PM – by Karina Bland
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131231yarnell-fire-warneke-baby-part2.html
From the article…
———————————————————
In the days just after the fire, Roxanne got back the things Billy had left in the hotshots’ crew buggy, which was out of the path of the fire, including his cellphone.
When she turned it on, it buzzed again and again with text messages and voice mails from friends and family who had tried to reach him when they first heard news of the fire.
She also got back a few packs of Top Ramen. (Billy hated MREs.) A change of clothes. Dayquil. (He’d been fighting a cold.) His camera.
There were no pictures of him on his camera, only ones he had taken. She wishes he had taken more pictures of himself.
Roxanne also visited the deployment site.
She was looking for Billy’s wedding band — 10 karat, plain gold, size 9½. She didn’t really think it was out here; she hoped it wasn’t, anyway.
He usually took it off when he worked. Even when he was at home, whether cleaning or doing yard work, he always took off his ring and set it on the windowsill in the kitchen.
Roxanne thinks Billy would have put his wedding band next to the military challenge coin he always carried in his wallet. One side of the coin was engraved with “1st Marine Division U.S. Marine Corps,” the other “2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, Second to None, The Magnificent Bastards.”
She was counting on him to have put his wallet in his backpack, like usual. Maybe it was among the personal items belonging to the hotshots that were still being held at the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office?
It was not. ‘Billy’ Warneke’s wedding band remains missing to this day.
———————————————————————
** THE AMOUNT OF WORK DONE
One of the biggest indicators of how tired and/or physically ‘under-par’ this crew was has actually always been the amount of actual work ( or lack thereof ) they were able to get done while they were out on that ridge.
This hasn’t been discussed much… but the truth is that for the amount of time they were out there ‘working’… they never accomplished much at all.
The SAIR actually included a little ‘squiggly line’ on one of their maps that was out near the anchor point and they labelled it ‘hand line completed’.
The length of it matches what Captain Trueheart Brown said in his own typed Unit Log when he was describing what he saw when he and Brian Frisby had that face-to-face with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed from 11:55 AM to 12:25 AM.
That was the point where, even at NOON, Granite Mountain needed to be resupplied with water and Brown says he and Frisby gave them ALL of the water and Gatorade they had in the Polaris Ranger before taking the ( exhausted ) Brendan McDonough down to that lookout mound.
Brown said they had only completed about 100 yards line by NOON, after having been working that site for more than 3 hours.
Exact quote from Captain Brown’s Unit log entry is…
“I notice that they have about 100 yard of line secured”.
Well… that is about the length of the same ‘squiggly line’ that eventually appeared in the SAIR document with the label ‘completed hand line’.
That has always meant that this ‘100 yards of line’ was about all they were able to accomplish the entire time they were ‘working’ out there ( 9:00 AM to ‘tools up’ at 3:30 PM minus 1/2 hour lunch would be 6 hours of ‘tools down’ ).
It also means that if Brown saw 100 yards of line at NOON and the final SAIR report showing ‘completed hand line’ post-incident wasn’t showing any more than that… then they really accomplished almost nothing following that NOON face-to-face and the time Brendan was ‘off-loaded’ to the lookout mound.
Their ASSIGNMENT was to connet line FROM the ‘anchor point’ down to some point where the dozer had improved that east-west two track out to ( and beyond ) the ‘old-grader’.
The dozer ( in the morning ) had pushed in TWO directions from the ‘old-grader’.
Northwest from the old-grader on that existing ‘jeep-trail’.
They went as far as the point where there were some ‘Explosives’ signs.
The SAIR mentions these ‘signs’ but never said exactly WHERE they were.
Thanks to Sonny… we know that.
Sonny made a special trip out there to confirm the location, which is right there where that Jeep Trail starts to enter that ‘draw’ and head up the slope.
The dozer then went back to the old-grader and then ‘improved’ that two-track which led away from the grader to the SOUTH. This is actually the part of the two-track that Granite Mountain used for their hike up to the anchor point.
The dozer improved THAT two-track ( which runs paralell to the ridge in a north-to-south layout ) up to the point where it turns to the west and starts to head up the slope to the ridge itself.
So there were TWO ‘connection points’ that Granite Mountain could have been using to try to ‘connect’ to from up where they were… and both of them weren’t that far downslope from where they were working.
But they never even got close to either of those ‘connection points’ with improved dozer line.
At the time Frisby was evacuating his own Crew…. he checked with Steed about their progress and Steed said they would need another hour to even get close to ‘connecting up’ with any dozer line out there.
They didn’t have an hour. The fire had already turned and was heading south, and people were already evacuating the Shrine area.
My whole point here is that the entire crew of 18 men ( Marsh was off by himself doing who-knows-what all day, and Brendan had been sent down to the lookout mound at 12:25 PM ) seemed ‘burned out’ by NOON that day and they never really got much actual WORK done at all for the entire afternoon.
That, itself, is ( and has always been ) an indication of what their ‘physical condition’ might have really been that Sunday.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the reminder on the morning’s tactics, strategy, activities, and accomplishments.
Having been to the GMHS Safety Zone and Deployment Zone twice, I only saw evidence of maybe 200 yards of chainsaw and handline, AT THE VERY MOST, from their S/Z to the mid-slope road.
I think they were toasted… even BEFORE they got there.
The 104 degree heat did nothing but make them ‘black around the edges’.
There is no evidence that Marsh even CONSULTED with his assistant ( Steed ) before accepting that assignment WHILE he was sitting there in the Prescott Brewing Company having dinner with his wife.
The evidence says he just called Steed and INFORMED him that tomorrow ( Sunday ) was no longer a day off… and Steed now had to initiate a RECALL of men who had already been DISMISSED with the assumption they were to be OFF the following day ( their normal day off )… and had already had hours to start doing what they normally do when they THINK tomorrow is a ‘day off’.
I think that just ‘lit the fuse’ on what would become a historic tragedy.
They shouldn’t have even been there.
not only they shouldn’t have been there but also THIS SHOULD OF NEVER HAPPENED…
please MISSING ELEMENTS keep opening up and keep sharing…but prefer it here for the world to see—
Since it’s getting (and going to get) kinda deep on the toxicology issue, posting a link for the process. Hopefully, this helps. I’m sure there are many others.
http://forensicscienceeducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Death-Investigation-Toxicology-Manual.pdf
The GMHS toxicology reports indicated that the fluids and blood were usually “vitreous (eye), ilIliac (femoral artery), and urine.”
The manual above states: “Vitreous is a particularly useful sample for testing for alcohol when there is any …” There were several GMHS that showed 0.01 g% in this vitreous category.
The vitreous and illiac blood specimens differed with vitreous being fairly minor, generally only 0.01 g%. The ethyl alcohol showed most in the illiac blood specimens.
In a few, the Medical Examiner noted “The ethyl alcohol detected in cardiac blood and vitreous was most likely due to decompositional changes.”
The urine samples were to detect drugs.
The illiac blood revealed the ranges of Carboxyhemoglobin (COHb), a stable complex of carbon monoxide that forms in red blood cells when carbon monoxide is inhaled. These varied considerably.
And lastly, the brain and lung samples revealed the methyl-ethyl-bad-stuff (Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene), present in varying elements and areas in ALL the GMHS reports.
Please be discreet in your discussions on this very important, yet sensitive issue.
And one more thing.
The moron McDonough was NOT tested for drugs or alcohol, a major error on the part on the SAIT.
But not quite as much of an error as them NOT looking into these 19 GMHS results. It’s more likely that they did so intentionally, on purpose, because the results didn’t fit with their “NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL” conclusion.
It’s NOT possible to everything right, and kill 19 men. Not f**king possible!
Very well said.
A couple of other points I learned was the temperature the body is in adds or lowers the decomposition.
Laying out in the sun or in a high temperature environment will increase decomposition.
Moved to a colder environment will slow decomposition.
Once the bodies were moved to the Coroners office they would have been put in a cooler environment. Normally any transport to another facility would also be in a cold type vehicle.
One reference I read stated a body laying in the sun for 5 days produced .08g% of alcohol.
That’s way more time than the crew was in that kind of environment.
I do not know what was done here just my understanding.
So the question here which was not available to me was the ME statement on the BAC.
No Conclusion was made. Or I have not seen it.
The only conclusion I saw was that the ethyl alcohol MY BE from decomposition which leaves a very large difference from IT WAS. More testing should have been able to conclude
the reason for the BAC levels. The different range of those levels needed to be fully explained.
The only thing I could not fined was when the bodies arrived in Prescott. on July 1st.
They had 12 hours that night plus what ever time that morning it took to load and move to Prescott.
Dose any one know the time the procession went thru Prescott to the Corner’s office?
I don’t think the bodies ever went to Prescott.
I’m pretty sure they went straight to Maricopa.
Each GHMS report had:
‘REPORTED CIRCUMSTANCES OF DEATH
On July 1, 2013, Yavapai County officials requested assistance from the Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner with the medicolegal death investigations of 19 firefighters who died in the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013. Under the Maricopa County Manager’s authority and direction, the Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner examined the firefighters’ for the purpose of forensic identification and postmortem evaluation. The Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner also agreed to provide consultative services to investigating authorities and the Yavapai County Medical Examiner. The Yavapai County Medical Examiner agree it will certify the firefighters’ death certificates. …”
Procedures occurred on July 2, 2013.
Interestingly, it is documented that Marsh had a “CELL PHONE, mirror,and compass in the shirt pocket.”
And the term “MEDICOLEGAL is defined as: “pertaining to medicine and law, or to forensic medicine” in most dictionaries.
But you already knew that …
So if they were transported on the first they should have started testing the first thing in the morning or sooner of the second. Should have a time and date on the individual forms of the blood draws and other ALL the testing for each individual. all we have is they were tested on the Second.
So some where between 39 and 48 hours after death.
some where between 24 to 30 hours they could have been in Maricopa
Morgue and in a refrigerated room.
The first 24 hours would not show much fermentation occurring to produce alcohol .
To answer the question the liver should have been sampled.
that would have given a good conclusion about the alcohol.
The statement on the Toxicology report says——
of ten hotshots who had ethyl alcohol in there Blood but not in their vitreous samples.
THE ME ( MEDICAL EXAMINER ) PROVIDED NO ANALYSIS OF THE PRESENCE OF ETHYL ALCOHOL IN THE BLOOD.
THOUGH THEY RANGED FROM .09g% TO .01g%
This still leaves some questions on what the readings indicate.
If 6 Hot Shots showed no Alcohol in their system the it puts some validity
of alcohol consumption back on the other 13.
Vehicle accidents were the driver died will state there was alcohol involved when it is even under the .08g%.
I have seen autopsies 48 hours later that the TOTAL BAC is used for a DUI including burned victims. With no deduction for decomposition.
It is confusing to the general public and it is hard to fully find where the ME is going or asked to go with a full autopsy.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 5, 2015 at 9:02 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> To the State and Attorney General.
>>
>> Release the Coroners report and all the Toxicology Reports and prove Gary wrong.
>>
>> Canceling evidence will not last long. The Public has a right to know……
Yes… and despite her recent efforts, State representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ), apparently acting on behalf of some subset of GM family members ( including, perhaps, one who may have been an EMPLOYEE of hers ) did NOT succeed in reversing the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ law(s).
** THE SHORT STORY
Despite her efforts… Arizona state Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) did NOT succeed with her recent HB2225 legislation in overriding the fundamental tenets of Arizona Law Title 39 – Chapter 1 – PUBLIC RECORDS ( also known as the ‘Arizona Open Records LAW’ ).
That fundamental Arizona law STILL says ( verbatim )…
“ANY PERSON may request to examine or be furnished copies, printouts or photographs of any public record during regular office hours or may request that the custodian mail a copy of any public record not otherwise available on the public body’s website to the requesting person.”
But what she WAS able to to with her HB2225 legislation is put a whole new layer of legal red-tape around the process of obtaining (specifically) ‘autopsy photographs or videos’ that now directly involves an Arizona SUPERIOR COURT Judge ( and not a lower court one ).
But that’s it. That’s ALL she accomplished.
She even failed to include things that can NOT be construed as ‘autopsy photos and videos’ such as the photos and videos that are known to have been taken of the Yarnell deployment area by a YCSO police officer from Helicopter Ranger 58, just before dark on June 30, 2013.
Those photos and videos ( and, indeed, whatever photos were taken by YCSO detectives ) have NOTHING to do with ‘autopsies’ or with the ‘Medical Examiner’s Office’. Those photos were part of THEIR standard investigative process and are considered to be ‘public’ items that are NOT part of any official ‘autopsy’ examination.
But see below. THOSE PHOTOS / VIDEOS were NEVER actually what news outlets like AZCENTRAL were ever even asking for. They had already learned that BOTH the Medical Examiner’s Office AND the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office now each had their OWN copies of the ‘autopsy/toxicology reports’ for Yarnell… and they were making a standard ( legitimate ) request to examine those documents, as allowed by the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ law(s).
As far as autopsy and/or toxicology WRITTEN REPORTS goes… nothing has changed and ( as Arizona Law Title 39, Chapter 1 says )… ANYONE can still walk into a place where those reports are known to exist during regular business hours ( such as a wholly-taxpayer supported Medical Examiner’s Office and/or a wholly-taxpayer supported Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office ) and ask to ‘inspect those PUBLIC records’.
And ANYONE still means ( last time I checked )… any citizen, any news reporter, any lawyer, any family member, any fireman, any shoemaker, any candle-stick maker, yada, yada, yada.
The PURPOSE of the her ‘legislation’ was simply an attempt to specifically make sure the MEDIA could NOT (easily) get ahold of any of the known photographs that were taken as part of the standard PUBLIC investigation of the Yarnell Hill Incident… because THAT is what a certain subset of GM family members was ‘freaking out’ about.
She was acting on BEHALF of a limited set of ‘family members’… some of whom *may* have actually had a ‘business’ relationship with her outside of her responsibilities as an Arizona State Legislature ( as in… one of them seems to have been her ‘farrier’ and the one taking care of her horses ).
So the ‘quid pro quo’ aspect is still something that needs to be looked into with regards to this legislation she authored and pushed through to Arizona LAW.
For any duly-elected lawmaker… sponsoring legislation at either the behest of or because of the influence of any ‘business’ relationships outside of one’s normal course of duties as a lawmaker is the textbook definition of ‘quid pro quo’… and it’s ILLEGAL.
** THE LONG STORY
The legislation that Karen Fann authored and pushed into Arizona Law that now limits WHO is allowed to ever see copies of some Arizona public records is detailed HERE on the Arizona Legislature PUBLIC website…
Arizona House Bill HB2225
Introduced by State Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott )
Signed into LAW by Arizona Governor on April 17, 2014.
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Session_ID=112&Bill_Number=HB2225
The actual TEXT of the bill that was signed into law by the Governor is here…
http://www.azleg.gov//FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/51leg/2r/bills/hb2225h.htm&Session_ID=112
Even the final version signed by the Governor contains the following ‘Oh by the way.. Notwithstanding Title 39, Chapter1’ text…
11-597.02. Autopsy photographs, digital images, x-rays and video recordings; in camera review; exceptions; procedures; immunity
—————————————————
A. Notwithstanding title 39, chapter 1, photographs, digital images, x-rays and video recordings of human remains that are created by a medical examiner, alternate medical examiner or their employees or agents during a death investigation that is conducted pursuant to this chapter may not be disclosed by a medical examiner, alternate medical examiner or their employees or agents unless a judge of the superior court grants disclosure of all or part of the materials after reviewing the materials in camera.
—————————————————-
So right there in Karen Fann’s own new ( unnecessary ) law… it says flat-out that this IN NO WAY overrides the ‘existing Arizona Public Records’ laws that are already on the books.
She is ONLY trying to please the family members who ( apparently ) came to her when AZCENTRAL was making its original attempt to see both the autopys REPORTS and ‘any other material related to the investigation’ and (apparently ) ASKED her to try and pass some kind of LAW to accomodate THEIR wishes.
See next ‘Reply’ for a link to the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ LAW(s)…
Followup…
Notice that Karen Fann’s new LAW specifically says…
“… photographs, digital images, x-rays and video recordings of human remains that are CREATED BY a medical examiner, alternate medical examiner or their employees or agents during a death investigation that is conducted pursuant to this chapter may not be disclosed.”
So after all her efforts… Karen Fann didn’t even succeed in doing what she was trying to do.
That verbiage means this ‘new law’ ONLY applies to ‘photos and videos’ that are CREATED by the Medical Examiner’s office in the process of performing their examination/autopsy.
It has NOTHING to do with all the photos and videos that were known to have been taken by the YCSO Police officers on both June 30 and July 1, 2013, as part of THEIR investigation.
And this law most certainly does nothing to prevent ANYONE from obtaining copies of the WRITTEN autopsy/toxicology reports.
Those are still very much considered PUBLIC DOCUMENTS and still totally accessible via a standard ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests.
ANYONE who tries to tie a request for just those WRITTEN ‘autopsy/toxicology’ reports back to this new Karen Fann legislation and who even tries to say they can’t release those WRITTEN reports without a ‘Court Order’ hasn’t read the actual document that was signed into LAW by the Arizona Governor.
** ARIZONA OPEN RECORDS LAW
Here are just a few ‘highlights’ from Arizona LAW – Title 39, Chapter 1, that is
specifically mentioned with the ‘Notwithstanding’ clause in Karen Fann’s
own ‘new’ legislation…
————————————————————————————-
Arizona Law
Title 39, Chapter 1 – PUBLIC RECORDS
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=39
39-101. Permanent public records; quality; storage; violation; classification
A. Permanent public records of the state, a county, city or town, or other political subdivision of the state, shall be transcribed or kept on paper or other material which is of durable or permanent quality and which conforms to standards established by the director of the Arizona state library, archives and public records.
B. Permanent public records transcribed or kept as provided in subsection A shall be stored and maintained according to standards for the storage of permanent public records established by the director of the Arizona state library, archives and public records.
C. A public officer charged with transcribing or keeping such public records who VIOLATES this section is GUILTY of a CLASS 2 MISDEMEANOR.
39-121. Inspection of public records
Public records and other matters in the custody of any officer shall be open to inspection by any person at all times during office hours.
D. Subject to section 39-121.03:
1. ANY PERSON may request to examine or be furnished copies, printouts or photographs of any public record during regular office hours or may request that the custodian mail a copy of any public record not otherwise available on the public body’s website to the requesting person.
——————————————————————————-
Robert the Second says
NOVEMBER 30, 2015 AT 7:21 PM
Gary,
Here’s some more to ponder on your line of thought:
Theory of Consequentialism – he consequences of one’s conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence. In an extreme form, the idea of consequentialism is commonly encapsulated in the English saying, “THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS” meaning that if a goal is morally important enough, any method of achieving it is acceptable.” I have found this more attributed to the Jesuits, the military arm of the Papacy, than any other group or institution.
Rule Consequentialism – holds that moral behavior involves following certain rules. However, rule consequentialism chooses rules based on the consequences that the selection of those rules have.
Motive Consequentialism – This version gives relevance to the motive of an act and links it to its consequences. An act can therefore not be wrong if the decision to act was based on a right motive. A possible inference is, that one can not be blamed for mistaken judgments if the motivation was to do good.”
All of us, as WF supervisors, rationalize the things we do, some of the time, others most of the time, some none of the time. I allege that Marsh most definitely rationalized what he did on the firelines so that he could get his way MOST of the time.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
And I say, “Was I thinking along this line of thought? I majored in Police Science and Sociology because it was easier than Psychology and then I was a hotshot who never wanted to be anything other than a hotshot but I wasn’t tough enough.
This type of thinking makes my head hurt when I try. Even after I was an investigator, I just had to find an expert who could explain this kind of thing and not try and do it myself. I am not being modest here, or using deprecating humor, I really can’t follow stuff like this.
A man has to know his limitations.
I’ll take a stab at it…
First off, when RTS wrote that I read it, read it again and thought about how that theory lines-up with not only the actions of GMIHC that day but also the rationalization of their actions after the fact. RTS is sharp. Makes me wonder why someone like him chose to work on & lead a hotshot crew for so long in the freakin’ desert of Arizona…seems like a waste! Haha
RTS said:
“Theory of Consequentialism – [T]he consequences of one’s conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct.”
“Thus, from a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence.”
Me:
The results of one’s actions or the outcome is to be judged as to whether what they did was RIGHT or WRONG. Actions have consequences. We are judging in this way here. The consequences of the fireline leadership at Yarnell and GM are that 19 hotshots died SO WHAT THEY DID WAS WRONG!
What I found particularly interesting was the theory of “MOTIVE CONSEQUENTIALISM when RTS posted. Check this out:
From RTS:
“Motive Consequentialism – This version gives relevance to the motive of an act and links it to its consequences.”
Me: Notice the introduction of MOTIVE of actions here. What it means to me is that if they had GOOD INTENTIONS in their actions then what they did WAS CORRECT because of those GOOD INTENTIONS. They get a pass because they meant well!
This is pretty deep stuff but I think I may understand….well, RTS? Do I understand this?
One of the reasons current and former wildland firefighters are studying this, along with a cross section of others, is because we believe something went wrong at Yarnell Hill and almost an entire crew should not have died. As wildland firefighters, we do not like it when this happens, and seek to learn lessons to prevent this type of tragedy from happening again. We have been obstructed from the truth and subsequent lessons (SAIR – what a joke) AND THAT PISSES US OFF, ROYALLY! We don’t ever want anyone in OUR house to die ever, for any reason!!! When we see multiple basic rule violations…well IT MAKES OUR BLOOD BOIL!!!
The powers that be want us to believe they had good intentions so everyone involved should get a pass. Just move along…nothing to see here.
RTS: How have I done so far? Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You got it. Good job.
Woodsman,
And Marsh utilized the GOOD INTENTIONS in their (his) actions to justify what they (he) did AS CORRECT, and so because of those GOOD INTENTIONS, they(he) gets a pass because they (he) meant well.
So, in his mind, it was all good, and everyone else should be okay with it.
RTS,
If this line of thinking continues to exist or proliferate in wildfire management, we will continue to lose firefighters unnecessarily. Such a damn shame.
Woodsman
One more thing…
From RTS:
“Rule Consequentialism – holds that moral behavior involves following certain rules. However, rule consequentialism chooses rules based on the consequences that the selection of those rules have.”
Competent wildland firefighters are REQUIRED to be “Rule Consequentialists.” We have rules we MUST follow. Standard orders, watch-outs… rules that if not followed have a high probability of DEATH as a consequence.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
So when you combine several of these together – the means justifies the end. as long as it’s done with good intentions, then you can pick and choose those rules you want to follow, and as the saying goes: “Its all good.” Go for it …. we’ve gotten away with it before, so what’s the big deal.
Basically, the set up for a Perfect Storm in the WFF world.
RTS,
Agreed.
I’ll stand by my words above…
“RTS,
If this line of thinking continues to exist or proliferate in wildfire management, we will continue to lose firefighters unnecessarily. Such a damn shame.”
Woodsman
I guess quoting myself makes me a special class of narcissist…..well, fuck-it…
RTS,
We need experienced safety officers that think like you on the firelines across the country. I hope you are one and stay active for a long time. A safety officer can shut the whole thing down. Hell, shut the entire incident down until they get their shit straight. Last line of defense, man. That’s what a safety officer is for. I wish a good safety officer was there that day to shut that shit down!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted “A safety officer can shut the whole thing down. Hell, shut the entire incident down until they get their shit straight.”
That’s what I thought as well, until the 2008 Iron Complex in northern California.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/12/08/summary-of-the-investigation-into-the-iron-44-fire-9-fatality-helicopter-crash/
Myself and the DIVS tried for SEVERAL HOURS with the Branch Director on the Command channel to shut down the Type I helicopter Crew shuttle for the Division (Overhead and Grayback, Type 2 Crew). But you won’t find this in the report anywhere because it doesn’t fit ‘The Party Line.’
Supposedly, it was because of an alleged incoming thunderstorm, that never manifested. The Crew even volunteered to hike down the hill instead of fly.
And so, the helicopter crashed and burned on the third load, killing nine (9) WFF and the pilot. This was totally predictable and totally preventable.
Then, I allege, it was the classic ‘first establish a conclusion, then find the facts to support it with selective interviews and misplaced interviews and statements until after the “FACTUAL” report was officially published.
I allege that this was just another huge cover-up and whitewash. But that’s another story.
RTS,
I read the link. So I guess Safety Officers are just ‘feel good’ positions…good to know. I was thinking about working towards that very job when I finish growing up but looks like a bullshit job if the command staff won’t take it seriously. Guess I’ll just hang up the boots and watch the carnage on the news when I’m done on the line.
The Iron 44 fire was quite the cluster in it’s own right. Greed and fraudulent representation of the aircraft’s performance in order to secure a lucrative contract, killed 9. The NTSB wailed on the company pretty good and here is an update I found: The scumbag owner of Carson helo looks to be going to jail:
http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20150414/NEWS/150419757/101064/NEWS
The glass apparently IS half empty and it seems that someone actually HAS pissed in it…
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Continue on to become a Safety Officer because you can make a difference MOST times.
I had to go to the UK to find a source for this story that General Electric (GE) knew all along about the engine problems and never notified any of their vendors with those particular engines.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2121326/GE-pay-177million-2008-helicopter-crash-killed-firefighters-en-route-blaze.html
Moreover, the NTSB has removed it’s links to the best relevant documentation and Carson Helicopter submissions pleading with NTSB to focus on the FCU/s and engines and NOT on the weight.
The weight was NOT the issue, it was one of the engines.
Send me an email address and I’ll send you the missing NTSB links that I have (that may not even matter if they have removed the actual documents)
A helicopter crash that killed nine continues to raise questions more than two years after the accident. The accident occurred on August 5, 2008 near Weaverville, California as a Sikorsky S-61N helicopter took off from a rugged mountaintop clearing ferrying firefighters to a wildfire in the Trinity Alps Wilderness. Seven contract firefighters, a U.S. Forest Service safety inspector and the pilot were killed.
On Dec 7, 2010 the NTSB met to determine the cause of the crash and make safety recommendations. Their recommendations raised questions about the safety of government aircraft and documents indicated the chopper was overweight.
Two victims’ families are speaking out through an attorney against those findings by the NTSB. The Coultas and Schwanenberg families charge the NTSB changed its initial conclusion from an engine failure to a weight issue because the report was written by the wife of the NTSB investigator that was responsible for the security of the parts, according to Gregory Anderson of AndersonGlenn, LLC.
Bill Coultas, who was severely injured in the accident and Christine Schwanenberg, wife of Roark Schwanenberg, who was killed in the crash believe there should be an impartial and unbiased investigation and that there is a conflict of interest with this report.
Both men were pilots of the helicopter, employed by Carson Helicopters. The families, through Anderson, would like to make the following facts public:
1) The original cause of the accident found by NTSB investigators was the loss of power from the No. 2 engine due to a well known issue over fuel filtration. The NTSB reached this conclusion following the inspection of the engines at a Columbia Helicopters repair facility in Aurora, Oregon on August 14th, 15th and 16th, 2008, just nine days following the August 5th accident. Columbia, an approved fuel system contractor for repair of the GE CT-58 engines involved in the accident, was the last party to have physical control of the parts. NTSB investigator Jim Struhsaker turned over control of the Fuel Control Units to Columbia on August 16th, 2008 for shipment back to the NTSB. Carson was not present, having left the inspection on the 15th to attend memorial services of the victims.
2) Columbia, GE and Sikorsky are all financially interested parties as defendants in multi-million dollar lawsuits brought by the victims and their families.
3) The Flight Data Recorder (FDR) was functioning and had 77 hours of data recorded. The NTSB investigators could not coordinate the timeline of the cockpit voice recorder with the FDR data so they labeled it “invalid” or “irrelevant”. In fact, it contains information of heading, altitude and engine performance. No attempt was made to integrate this data after August 16th 2008, when the fuel system components were lost.
4) GE, Sikorsky and Columbia had been facing allegations of a dangerous defect regarding the fuel control units, specifically, stuck stator vanes due to a contamination of Pressure Regulating Valves (PRV) and clogged filters, which when clogged to a certain degree, allow the CT58 to continue to operate through the use of an emergency by-pass valve. When this occurs, unfiltered fuel is allowed into the Fuel Control Unit, and results in contamination of the system. The diameter or “clearance” of the diaphragm of the PRV is only six (6) microns in thickness. The filters in use in N612AZ, the S-61 involved in the Trinity crash, as well as the four preceding crashes from this issue, were for forty (40) micron contaminants. The US military identified the filtration issue in its S-61s in the 1990s and switched to the finer, 10 micron filter. Following the upgrade, military S-61s no longer had fuel filter issues.
5) The day following the accident, email exchanges between GE and Sikorsky engineering departments raise filtration immediately after being notified about the accident.
6) The S-61N involved, had a maintenance history that included concerns over stuck fuel system components due to fuel contamination. The maintenance history of the S61N was not considered in the Board’s findings.
7) There have been four prior accidents involving the CT58 fuel system in the S-61 where fuel contamination was cited as the cause, including a 2004 detailed investigation by the Canadian Transportation Board into an S-61N firefighter crash where it determined the GE CT58 fuel filter issue was the probable cause. The prior accidents were not considered by the Board.
. 8) The sole evidence that the No. 2 GE CT58 engine in N612AZ was functioning nominally was a sound spectrum analysis prepared by GE using Sikorsky charts of the sound signature of the planetary gears in the S-61 transmission and the sound signature of the gas generator blade rpm. In order to determine whether the No. 2 engine was developing its full power, the NTSB would need four facts: first, “Nr” or rotor blade rpm; second, “Ng”, or gas generator (compressor) speed; “Nf” or power turbine speed; and finally, “T5” or turbine inlet temperature, which shows the amount of heat developed in the CT58 combustion chamber (for the CT58-140 installed in this S-61N configuration, that should have been 721 degrees). The NTSB did not determine the second and third required parameters and so could not have determined whether the No. 2 engine had achieved “topping” or top rated horsepower.
9) The sound spectrum analysis is the only “quantitative” data for the conclusion that the No. 2 engine had not failed. Absent this GE/Sikorsky analysis, all of the NTSB conclusions are speculation. Objective facts supporting an engine issue include the No. 2 torque gauge found post accident with a “split” of 30% from No. 1. The NTSB theorized this could be from a power loss but wiring schematics show this to be an A/C powered gauge that would have frozen with a sudden loss of power, not wound down. Even if it had been a DC powered gauge, there would not have been a split: both gauges would have wound down to zero torque. The Emergency Throttle for No. 2 was found in the partially opened position. Bill Coultas and a second eyewitness confirm that he was attempting to open the No. 2 Emergency Throttle after he saw the torque split on the gauges. The only reason to do so was a concern by the flight crew with fuel. The Emergency Throttles are gated and require significant force to move to an open position. Bill Coultas testified they lost power and noted the loss of rotor speed before they hit any trees.
10) Comparison of the markings on the stator vanes are significant.
11) The NTSB ignored Bill Coultas’ testimony that they had cleared a 50′ (AGL) tree before losing power and descending into the #1, #2 and #3 trees documented to have been hit by the rotor blades in the report. The GPS plot of N612AZ’s course, combined with the (NTSB commissioned) survey of the area, prove unequivocally that N612AZ climbed to 60′ or more before losing power. The significance is that in sloping terrain (the NTSB survey shows between 8 and 20 degrees of ground slope once the helicopter left the immediate landing area of H-44), the “Hover Out of Ground Effect” (“HOGE”) altitude could not have been more than 30′ (AGL). To get to an altitude of 60-70′ AGL, the helicopter had to climb out of ground effect, which renders the theory of an overweight issue as a cause, speculative. Succinctly, if the helicopter was grossly overweight, it would have never been able to climb out of ground effect (the cushion of air between the ground and the whirling disk of the rotor blades), but would have “settled” back down. This effect would have been immediately noticed by the flight crew. It is a matter of mathematical certainty that an S61N at this density altitude could not have climbed out of ground effect and over a 50′ obstacle if it were in a gross overload situation. As a matter of record, N612AZ did climb out of ground effect and transition into forward flight, and climbed over a 50′ obstacle. Weight was not the issue.
12) The NTSB asks the public and the aviation community in particular, to believe that a Pilot-in-Command (Roark Schwanenberg), a Second-in -Command (Bill Coultas) and a Forest Service Check Pilot (Jim Ramage), with a combined total of 29,000 hours of helicopter time: lifted off from H-44; never noticed any weight problem; never noticed the helicopter settling; never felt it reacting sluggishly; never considered putting her back down; never thought of their own safety (all three had families –Schwanenberg and Coultas with minor children); ignored the lives of the nine firefighters in the back, and essentially flew directly into the trees.
13) The NTSB took Bill Coultas’ statement that “we had plenty of power” and presented it as though he was stating the condition of the helicopter as it was crashing. The transcript of his post-accident interview makes clear he was stating that he and PIC Schwanenberg had determined that they would have plenty of power for the last (crash) flight as they performed the preflight calculations, based on the observed temperature and winds. By taking the SIC’s statement out of context, the NTSB presented it as conformation that the engines were producing full power. This is contrary to sound investigation techniques requiring an unbiased and impartial evaluation of the testimony.
14) The NTSB Materials Report (taken off the public docket in violation of the NTSB’s “transparency” policy issued in June of 2009), was the result of complaints by the victims and the aircraft’s owner/operator, Carson Helicopters to the NTSB and to members of Congress, including Oregon Representative Pete DeFazio. After Carson’s request for a congressional investigation into the loss of the parts, the NTSB investigation shifted to an investigation of Carson and the weight issue. Prior to Carson expressing concerns to Congress over the parts, the focus was on the engine filtration issue.
15) In the GE/Sikorsky prepared “worst case” simulation, the helicopter was alleged to have weighed 19,008 lbs. The Sikorsky performance charts, even using the “stock” rotor blades instead of the composite, high performance blades on N612AZ, show that at this altitude, temperature and wind, the helicopter could lift over 19,100 lbs. Assuming every fact in favor of the NTSB/GE/Sikorsky simulations, N612AZ could have and did fly from H-44 until the No. 2 engine failed.
RTS,
Now that’s interesting. When I read the recommendations by NTSB, it was full of weight problems, load miscalculations, etc……..then just throw in there was ‘oh by the way, should have had a 10 micron fuel filter…’ It was a recommendation that didn’t seem to fit the nature of all the rest. I guess that’s why. So, why is the owner of Carson Helos headed to or in jail?
One question, if you can (or want to) answer it: What did you identify as the problem that made you attempt for so long to halt the transport operation? And why was it ignored by branch?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Both the DIVS and I had STRONG gut feelings (the Holy Spirit for me) that something wasn’t right about the whole thing, including we almost never shuttle Crews in Type I helicopters.
I found out later, the Zion Helitack module had been asked to remove trees in the departure that ‘the pilots’ didn’t feel comfortable with. They were only ‘allowed’ to cut the ones the pilots identified (the Helitack personnel wanted to cut more) and a local READ said no due to H-44 being along a wilderness trail.
These were some of the trees the S-61 hit on their departure that afternoon.
Here’s a link to the SAFENET I filed on this deadly fire (a WFF drowned, the Dutch Creek fatality, and more).
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25175
I filed others on this deadly fire and I’ll post those accordingly
Woodsman,
And another Iron Complex SAFENET
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25162
And another Iron Complex SAFENET, this one ending up with a Region 5 ‘White Paper’ regarding NO further nepotism on IMT’s.
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25174
The Trainee OPS was the IC’s wife and the IMT SOF1 told me “that’s just the way it is …”
And another on the 2008 Iron Complex, which dovetailed with and bolstered the one I filed on nepotism.
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25156
Woodsman,
One more link with Carson Helicopter dissenting opinions on the NTSB cover-up and whitewash of the Iron Complex H-44 debacle
Carson Helicopters has challenged the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB’s) finding that company actions were to blame for the Aug. 5, 2008, crash of a Sikorsky S-61N, complaining that the agency tried to “make Carson a scapegoat” while ignoring “an ongoing safety-of-flight issue.”
Franklin Carson, president of Carson Helicopters, denounced as “arbitrary and one-sided” the Dec. 7, 2010, public hearing during which the NTSB approved its final report on the accident, including the probable cause.
Carson said that the company believes that the accident was caused by a loss of power to the no. 2 engine and that the power loss resulted from contamination in the fuel control. He said the NTSB ignored “indisputable evidence” that supports the company’s claim.
He noted that, six years before the accident, his company told engine manufacturer General Electric (GE), Sikorsky and Columbia Helicopters, which overhauls fuel controls, about Carson Helicopters’ belief that fuel control contamination caused engines to lose power.
“Two years before the accident, GE recommended that Sikorsky change the airframe filter for the fuel control from 40 microns to 10 microns to address this problem,” Carson said. “One day after the accident, GE e-mailed Sikorsky asking what was being done about changing the airframe fuel filter. It wasn’t until almost two years after the accident that Sikorsky issued a service bulletin changing the approved filter from 40 microns to 10 microns.”
Carson said that the NTSB “ignored the experienced copilot’s direct testimony that he saw signs of power loss in the no. 2 engine immediately prior to the crash, and … ignored his direct reading of the actual air temperature at the scene in favor of manufactured data that fit their preconceived narrative.”
In addition, he said that the NTSB “lost care and custody of fuel control unit (FCU) parts early in this investigation and from that point forward did not pursue evidence chains leading to the fuel control units.” He said that “significant contaminants ranging in size up to 28 microns” were found inside the no. 2 FCU and added, “There is a history of power loss problems due to contaminants in the FCU because of inadequate fuel filtering that was known by the manufacturer and not properly explored by the NTSB.”
Carson said that the NTSB did not participate in independent flight tests that were conducted in density altitude conditions that matched those at the accident site. The tests verified U.S. Federal Aviation Administration performance charts that showed that the helicopter had more than enough power to fly out of Helispot-44, he said.
He also said that the NTSB’s primary investigation team “had no relevant helicopter experience to properly investigate this accident and misplaced their emphasis on poorly contrived data instead of concentrating on the hard evidence leading to the ultimate cause of this accident and an ongoing safety-of-flight issue.”
—LW
Another key safety issue that contributed to the deaths was the COMPLICATED SEAT BELTS THAT WERE REQUIRED BY USFS CONTRACT that were very difficult to open and close. These were NO longer required after the H-44 Fatalities.
Reply to Woodsman post on
December 5, 2015 at 2:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Now that’s interesting. When I read the
>> recommendations by NTSB, it was full
>> of weight problems, load miscalculations,
>> etc……..then just throw in there was
>> ‘oh by the way, should have had
>> a 10 micron fuel filter…’ It was a
>> recommendation that didn’t seem to
>> fit the nature of all the rest. I guess
>> that’s why.
>>
>> So, why is the owner of Carson
>> Helos headed to or in jail?
I beleive that despite all the controversy about ‘power loss’ versus ‘based weight representation issues’… Carson Helicopters WAS found to have been totally mis-representing the BASE WEIGHT of the contracted helo and it was then proven that Carson executives went to great lengths to try and cover THIS up… including ORDERING employees to remove all kinds of shit from their other helicopters before the FEDS came snooping around so that the estimated BASE WEIGHT they were already reporting for THOSE ‘other’ Federally contracted helos would end up ‘matching reality’.
See the following article…
The Mail Tribune
Article Title: ‘Pure greed’ led to deadly Carson helicopter crash, feds say
Former Carson Helicopters VP Steven Metheny faces 15 years in prison
PUBLISHED: AprIL 14, 2015 at 9:45 am
By Mark Freeman
http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20150414/NEWS/150419757
At the top of the article is a photograph of the crash scene, including the ‘trees’ in question.
WTKTT and Woodsman,
I will stand by and support Mr. Carson and Carson Helicopters forever. Yes, there were two Carson employees that were to blame for nefarious deeds related to the crash; one for falsifying the performance charts and the other, an executive, for knowing about it all and going along with it.
I do NOT and will NOT believe anything in any news media that gets it’s ‘information’ from doled out ‘Talking Points’, spoon fed to them by the Public (Dis)Information Officers of that Agency.
When any Government Agency puts out ‘Talking Points’, they are trying to hide something, pure and simple.
RTS,
Copy that. You know way more about it than I do as I just heard about it today and you were actually there.
Woodsman
And here is my reply to Fraijo. I have been threatened by some scary people in my life. These two assholes don’t qualify.
gary olson
Today at 2:39 AM
To
[email protected]
Message body
Dear Chief Fraijo
Fuck you. You played a major role in killing the Granite Mountain Hotshots as well because you were so fucking CLUELESS! And you put that stupid bastard Darrell Fucking Willis in charge.
Gary
Here is my reply to Fann.
gary olson
Today at 2:35 AM
To
Karen Fann
Message body
Karen,
I can’t think of a better way to spend my time than to expose your corruptness as the queen of quid pro quo and the truth. Amanda Marsh was drinking with Eric Marsh at that brewery the night before he died, she know exactly how drunk he was and I already have the toxicology reports that proves how drunk he was when he went on the fire line and when he died.
So sue away. The first step in a successful lawsuit is to prove I am telling a lie. Keep checking IM just to see how much I don’t stop telling the truth and looking for more. So…
Gary
To the State and Attorney General.
Release the Coroners report and all the Toxicology Reports and prove Gary wrong.
Canceling evidence will not last long. The Public has a right to know……
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 5, 2015 at 9:02 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> To the State and Attorney General.
>> Release the Coroners report and all the Toxicology Reports
>> and prove Gary wrong.
>> Canceling evidence will not last long. The Public has a right to know……
Yes… we do.
See a longer response up above in this new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-317970
As it turns out… Arizona state representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) didn’t even accomplish what she set out to achieve ( apparently at the request of some subset of GM family members ) with her ‘new law’… HB2225.
Her ‘new law’ only applies to PHOTOS and VIDEOS that are specifically CREATED by the Medical Examiner’s Office in the course of performing THEIR investigation/autopsy’.
Her ‘new’ law’ does NOTHING to override the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ laws ( Title 39, Chapter 1 ) when it comes to DOCUMENTS such as written autopsy/toxicology reports.
Those are still obtainable ( legally ) by ANYONE according to Arizona’s own ‘Open Records’ laws.
And it was even a twofer because I got one back from Fraijo as well? So I am not even sure who wrote the reply Fraijo or Fann?
Dan Fraijo
Dec 4 at 7:39 PM
To
Karen Fann
CC
gary olson
Message body
Well done, thanks. Dan
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Karen Fann wrote:
>
>
> Mr. Olson, I firmly do not believe a word of anything you wrote in your email. Not only do I believe it to be totally untrue, I find it to be one of nastiest emails I have ever received. These were brave men who gave their lives protecting us and I cannot imagine why you would want to destroy their memories and reputations.
> I strongly urge you to cease and desist these nasty allegations before someone takes you to court for defamation.
> In addition, I would appreciate it if you would not send me any more emails and you find some other constructive way to spend your time.
>
> Regards,
> Representative Karen Fann
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 12:16 PM, gary olson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Karen,
>
> Have you been keeping up with current events on IM. The big secret is finally out now.
>
> Most of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew were drunker than sailors during Fleet Week when they went on the fire line on the Yarnell Hill Fire. This includes ALL of their leadership under the direction of Eric Marsh whose U.S. Forest Service career was ended when he was sent home with the Globe Hotshots from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho after he was caught drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana on the fire line with members from the crew under his supervision which included the saw team.
>
> Are the information stations at the new state park you engineered going to contain any of this information?
>
> Two of the hotshots had blood alcohol content levels so high in their blood at the time of their deaths there is no doubt in my mind they were drinking on the fire line.
>
> A 180-200 pound man loses about .01g% per hour, so you can do the math from the summary of the toxicology reports on the hotshots that I have included with this email. Scary…right? You are lucky the Prescott Courier is afraid to run with this story. How long do you thing that will continue?
>
> Back up the numbers…14 of the 20 were drunk (including McDonough, who was never tested but he was known to be drinking on Whiskey Row with other hotshots the night before and he is an alcoholic) when they hit the fire line. One was high on drugs. And five were sober but they went along for the last ride of their lives.
>
> Here is a quote from the Mayo Clinic.
>
> “Ethanol acts on cerebral functions as a depressant similar to general anesthetics. This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior. As the level of alcohol increases, the degree of impairment becomes progressively increased.”
>
> The Granite Mountain Hotshots, or at least certain constituents thereof, really were hard-core party animals. And apparently many of their friends (men and women) would go down to Yarnell after the Fire and carry on the tradition, they were known as “…pew boys, and puke boys.”
>
> Hotshot crews do seem to have this ubiquitous association with being hard party animals. I do know since I was one for 10 years. I suppose Granite’s excuse, if any, was that they thought they were having the weekend off. Which I think was a pretty good one until Eric Marsh decided to play an end run around the system and take them to that fire even though they were out of rotation.
>
> Eric Marsh. What a guy. Once of his crewman got charged with DUI and Eric tells him, “Well…at least you have got some life in you.” Eric Marsh. Clean and sober for 10 years? Ya…right!
>
> Being hung-over means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day, hence their intense desire to get off that mountain to go save Yarnell in spite of all of the danger signs. Like the pyroclastic cloud of ash, smoke and airborne burning debris looming over their heads as they hiked directly into the path of a raging fire storm.
>
> Wow! I am still at a loss for words after more than two years to adequately describe how I feel about the deaths of those kids on that crew.
>
> Hang in there. Maybe nobody who really matters will ever put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4?
>
> Sincerely, Gary
>
Who say’s that baiting “them” doesn’t pay off?
Karen Fann
Dec 4 at 7:00 PM
To
gary olson
Message body
Mr. Olson, I firmly do not believe a word of anything you wrote in your email. Not only do I believe it to be totally untrue, I find it to be one of nastiest emails I have ever received. These were brave men who gave their lives protecting us and I cannot imagine why you would want to destroy their memories and reputations.
I strongly urge you to cease and desist these nasty allegations before someone takes you to court for defamation.
In addition, I would appreciate it if you would not send me any more emails and you find some other constructive way to spend your time.
Regards,
Representative Karen Fann
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 4, 2015, at 12:16 PM, gary olson <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Karen,
Have you been keeping up with current events on IM. The big secret is finally out now.
Most of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew were drunker than sailors during Fleet Week when they went on the fire line on the Yarnell Hill Fire. This includes ALL of their leadership under the direction of Eric Marsh whose U.S. Forest Service career was ended when he was sent home with the Globe Hotshots from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho after he was caught drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana on the fire line with members from the crew under his supervision which included the saw team.
Are the information stations at the new state park you engineered going to contain any of this information?
Two of the hotshots had blood alcohol content levels so high in their blood at the time of their deaths there is no doubt in my mind they were drinking on the fire line.
A 180-200 pound man loses about .01g% per hour, so you can do the math from the summary of the toxicology reports on the hotshots that I have included with this email. Scary…right? You are lucky the Prescott Courier is afraid to run with this story. How long do you thing that will continue?
Back up the numbers…14 of the 20 were drunk (including McDonough, who was never tested but he was known to be drinking on Whiskey Row with other hotshots the night before and he is an alcoholic) when they hit the fire line. One was high on drugs. And five were sober but they went along for the last ride of their lives.
Here is a quote from the Mayo Clinic.
“Ethanol acts on cerebral functions as a depressant similar to general anesthetics. This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior. As the level of alcohol increases, the degree of impairment becomes progressively increased.”
The Granite Mountain Hotshots, or at least certain constituents thereof, really were hard-core party animals. And apparently many of their friends (men and women) would go down to Yarnell after the Fire and carry on the tradition, they were known as “…pew boys, and puke boys.”
Hotshot crews do seem to have this ubiquitous association with being hard party animals. I do know since I was one for 10 years. I suppose Granite’s excuse, if any, was that they thought they were having the weekend off. Which I think was a pretty good one until Eric Marsh decided to play an end run around the system and take them to that fire even though they were out of rotation.
Eric Marsh. What a guy. Once of his crewman got charged with DUI and Eric tells him, “Well…at least you have got some life in you.” Eric Marsh. Clean and sober for 10 years? Ya…right!
Being hung-over means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day, hence their intense desire to get off that mountain to go save Yarnell in spite of all of the danger signs. Like the pyroclastic cloud of ash, smoke and airborne burning debris looming over their heads as they hiked directly into the path of a raging fire storm.
Wow! I am still at a loss for words after more than two years to adequately describe how I feel about the deaths of those kids on that crew.
Hang in there. Maybe nobody who really matters will ever put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4?
Sincerely, Gary
I want to add this factoid to the mix that I received in an email on the side which I think is right on target.
“Being hungover means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day.”
And among other things, I’d say they definitely had “MENTAL CONFUSION” by deciding to leave their perfectly good Safety Zone when they did WITHOUT LEAVING A LOOKOUT, and hiking downhill in HEAVY, UNBURNED FUELS through CHUTES and CHIMNEYS, into a BOWL, and spending several minutes actually attempting to cut out a DEPLOYMENT ZONE with chainsaws. Definitely MENTAL CONFUSION there.
adding also the missing elements
than you see it clear
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 4, 2015 at 1:35 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I want to add this factoid to the mix that I received in an email on the side
>> which I think is right on target.
>>
>> “Being hungover means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always
>> means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had
>> already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day.”
There has ALWAYS been evidence/testimony to support that.
When Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had that first ‘face-to-face’ with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed from exactly 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM ( as per the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data )… they both testified it also turned into ‘resupply’ mission for ‘water and Gatorades’.
Granite Mountain had only been working on the ridge for 3 hours, it wasn’t even the hottest part of the day yet, and they were already needing to be ‘resupplied’ with ‘water and Gatorades’ by NOON that day.
Frisby didn’t have much to say about this 30+ minute ‘face-to-face’ meeting with Marsh from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM, but he did specifically mentioning having to ‘resupply’ GM with more ‘water and Gatorades’ even around NOON…
From Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
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We made our way up the Saddle toward Granite Mountain with the (Polaris) ranger. When we met them we talked about the bad clone and lack of briefing. We gave them some waters and Gatorades and they asked of we could bring their ( *redacted*… but obviously something like “one of their guys down the hill to a lookout mound” ). We introduced ourselves and took him down the hill.
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From Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown’s typed Unit Log…
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We tie in ( with Granite Mountain up on the ridge ). I notice that they have about 100 yards of line secure. We talk to them about the situation and comments are made about how neither crew received a briefing. We also discuss the issue about the radios.. We gave them ALL the extra water and Gatorade that we had in the Ranger and told them what we saw from below.
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So Frisby says they gave them ‘some waters and Gatorades’, but Brown says they gave them “ALL the extra water and Gatorade’ that was in the Ranger.
The SAIT team, however makes no mention of this ‘resupply’ action on the part of Blue Ridge when Frisby and Brown had that first face-to-face with Marsh and Steed from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM…
PDF page 25 of the SAIR document…
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A little before noon, on the two-track road just below the saddle, BR Supt and BR Capt meet DIVS A and GM Capt at the anchor point. Over the next half hour, they discuss tactics and agree to use a Granite Mountain crewmember as a lookout (GM Lookout). GM Lookout identifies a lookout spot down near the old grader at the bottom of the slope, and GM Capt agrees it will be a good vantage point. BR Supt, BR Capt, DIVS A, and GM Capt also discuss problems.with radios on the incident, noting some radios do not have appropriate tone guards and communication is adversely affected.
BR Supt and BR Capt depart and drive GM Lookout down to the old grader, dropping him off at 1239. They feel comfortable leaving him at this spot, and BR Supt tells the lookout, “If you need me, call, and I’ll come get you.”
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Moving this to the top so it won’t get lost in the weeds about the unfit for duty discussion below regarding alcohol and fatigue. This is a Wildfire Today post from November 28, 2015, titled: “How much sleep do tactical athletes need?”
It’s written by Charles Palmer (20 years as a former WFF and Smokejumper) , an associate professor at the University of MT who studies performance psychology of wildland firefighters, calling them “tactical athletes”.
Here’s one of the quotes: “Behavioral alertness and a range of cognitive functions, including sustained attention, and working memory deteriorate when nightly sleep is limited to between 4 and 7 hours. Decisionmaking skills, such as the ability to assess risk, assimilate changing information, and revise strategies to solve problems based on new information are likely to suffer.”
It appears that the majority of the GMHS were functioning on limited sleep just prior to the YH Fire for a number of reasons, including possibly consuming copious amounts of alcohol.
“Behavioral alertness.” “Sustained attention.” “Decisionmaking skills, such as the ability to assess risk, assimilate changing information, and revise strategies to solve problems based on new information are likely to suffer.” Ya think? WTF!?
I think it’s safe to say, this was occurring in varying degrees with the GMHS on June 30, 2013.
http://wildfiretoday.com/?s=fatigue&submit=Search
RTS-It appears that the majority of the GMHS were functioning on limited sleep just prior to the YH Fire for a number of reasons, including possibly consuming copious amounts of alcohol.
MY REPLY: Not just the hikers the eyewitness but family and friends and people that were on fire and people who knew them all confirm RTS those possibilities yet there is more… MISSING ELEMENTS as well
I have a question not just for this site but the World—
That June 30, 2013 Sonny even though I don’t address it much saved my life
Why?
How?
I was spent…I had hiked from Prescott DMV to Wilhoit appx 24 miles at a slope curvy highway 89 mountain where my husband– disappointed –I did not call him or rent a car but he had to between 4-5am drive home from work to see me and Sonny hiking and were at the Wilhoit point. My health was not the greatest that week so I got a lecture from my husband as well medical massager. I also hiked a few times after that so on June 30 I had put over sixty+ miles of walking in so now it is June 30 and at 12:14pm Sonny sees that hill flair up and burnt up and at 12:38 he showed a serious elderly mountain man concern and he was over-heated and told me he was going the longer way on the Congress side…I had my snake boots off all that time with obvious foot/ankle/leg edema and I was hurting and hot. He as he always loves to do in my life “label” me stubborn or hard-headed and never give understanding that when I met him I was in worse off shape/health than him and to be in my life he would have to have compassion and empathy like with passing out and seizures and I strongly believe he knows and been there through those times that is WHY he came back almost 40 minutes later because he did not want to be charged with abandonment murder charges because of my family would have felt that way had he left me for good up there. Let’s get to REALITY that Sonny does not talk about much…he too was spent and hot and had it locked GET THE FUCK OUT and NOW and not drop down into unburned fuel—I was going to short cut it out near where the men died (cattle pond) where there was unburned fuel because I felt TIMING I had on my side to do that short cut—his way—we learned by homeowners we could of perished and were ok by only eleven minutes…I do not agree…just perceptions…because Foothills was blowing flames and I heard ALL the accounts and I still think I could of got out my way—-
The point here under extreme situation we watched the 20 men —they should of been out of there much earlier or been on the Congress side or in the black…where they died it has been confirmed chemicals were dumped there and as well an abundance of the datura plant. Camp out a game trail camera out there and you will learn the land I KNOW because I LIVE it amongst the animals for so long…I have slept in my sleeping bag to wake up the next day and see on my perimeter camera a tarantula crawl on my face or a rattler slither over my body to get to his point a to b and a mountain lion laying above me as I slept under a shelter I built and a bobcat laying on my thigh as a king bird was perched above the cat…or hundreds of termites or ants cover me or in caves have almost 100 scorpions on me but when you sleep you don’t see the dangers…your eyes are shut…so maybe just maybe the tiredness ways the men and I had that June 30 2013 blinded us from what Sonny obviously saw that day and was FIRM we got to get the hell outta here kid…they have copters and radios to save them—we don’t…
Tactical alert-
Sonny has a natural tactical law enforcement way about him…he gets in gear and just does it—he is the biggest messiest man who lives reckless yet on that mountain he was so determined that fire was dangerous even a couple miles in distance because he knows the mountains and he knew fire because in the big burro mountains of NM him and his dad put them out—lightning strikes— because it meant their home (tent) could be jeapordized—and they had a livelihood of the mines—
so with all the recent terrorism acts—and coast to coast this week mentioning if the grid got hit we could be without ammenities—
my question to you…the World:
Could you survive?
I know after trailing with Sonny in some very harsh rugged areas that only a mountain man who can live off the land can survive and I did it in the hottest of weather and coldest in all types of terrain…I know in all my heart WITH my health problems I can help not just me but others around focusing on the kids, elders and disabled—to live a life without normal life ammenities…remember when I met Sonny I packed 86#s of gear and he just went with himself…I’d store water bottles in my snake boots or hiking pants…telling people I just gained WATER WEIGHT…because I did not trust this reckless man to teach me where water is in all terrains…where to eat off the land…and I now know…not just for the state of Arizona but neighboring states too.
Now RTS…I cannot help to find the value in knowing Sonny…the topic of liquor it has been my biggest area of feeling at ease to live my life away from him because he does not calculate my health and his actions—very taxing…however I am a strong believer in independence and individualism so if I clash with him—my mind works—go back to just desert walking—why engage in it but nowadays I have to set the “bs” we face in knowing another because he is strong on his beliefs and I have bent as much as I could on my end and I am broken…bent…yet I believe in LIFE…I believe in FAITH and I believe without the bread of L.I.F.E.- you are toast! So I will not judge and brush off the bs and do what I do best and that is be his pal….if he stays there—good chance he will die—if I take full liability as his F/MPOA than I will get him better—look at me…I am still kicking even though one doctor Nancy always tells me she is always baffled. She is also upset because of her own profession screwed me up-
I know all about SCREW UPS—
I saw it on the YHF and the aftermath.
Joy,
It sounds to me that you are still blessed in many ways, even with all you have going on.
And, yes, I am prepared for whatever comes our way, I have Jesus as my Lord and Savior. That’s all I need.
professing the blood of Jesus as your Savior will help in the Eternal way of things…yet if we become a world or USA that has no ammenties—no water, no gas, no food, no electricity and if you saw on the evening of February 2, 1971 in NY or the New Orleans Katrina Flood or other areas where you saw the influential attacks of looters and its extremities—and if you seen like me the desert walker how the state and government has gps’d all these mining areas and its caves even ones on private property and I met the man who has been doing it and also filling most caves in…and if you see areas within private and blm and state land where they have installed systems and transmitters that were not there years ago…before I met Sonny I thought when the time comes I know I can do it but to live amongst Sonny…I learned it’s not simple. We had to learn alternate methods of preserving food, how to build things without power tools, how to cook on a wood stove or campfire during all weather and terrain—just so much information—like where in any terrain to look for water and its not something you write in book—you gotta feel it and live it—and well I know it’s important to build confidence especially in the old and young and diabled and the ones who are pharmecutically induced and will be cut off from meds if it happen—so I use to think if I was dropped off anywhere in the world can I do it— ignorantly I use to say sure but now with confidence due to Sonny’s unique lifestyle I can say HELL YES…Sonny should help others…I know he did a few on our hikes but I think what he knows needs to be IN PRINT…like a backpack bible…along with my other dusty bible….
RTS said-It sounds to me that you are still blessed in many ways, even with all you have going on.
MY REPLY- looking back at the Weavers where I am officially on record not allowed to be—I think there the truths may hide—where our fallen angels survive—where fear rusts through pride—the place where heroes die—a carcass left due to another’s greed—yet in the shade grows another weed—merciless liar wears the scars well—yet YOU KNOW the shadows haunt you—I am grateful for the reminder from RTS that, even in the darkest hours of our lives, there are blessings to count, relationships to cherish and goodness to see.
—I say I am done and happy in the desert doing MY thing yet God always shares WHO is in control—
It is sad how someone can get uncomfortable and lash out—
and yet to be on the other end don’t feel so good—
the worst I lash— “tears” and emotional frustration moments when things don’t add up…this YHF..it shoulda never happened.
I do not like being stuck and this YHF has me “stuck”….
Im heading to see Sonny soon
He is being moved soon—
if its hospice than as POA bring him to his home and up security on both areas due to recent behind the scenes update I was given on the hikers-
odd world we live in-
So I’ve been reading down through the threads and when I got to this, I just stopped in my tracks:
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says DECEMBER 2, 2015 AT 12:00 PM
(snip)
The PROOF actually comes from Mr. David Turbyfill, the father of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.
He, himself, made an extended effort to obtain ALL of these ‘toxicology’ test results for his own son, Travis. It took him 15 months to finally ‘win’ and get his own copies… but he succeeded.”
Jaw. Dropped.
It took THE FATHER of one of the Hotshots FIFTEEN MONTHS to obtain the test results for his son??????
I find that something like astonishing.
Is that normal?
Is there something I am missing in regards to that?
———————-
On another note, I’ve been thinking back into my “slides” of the Deployment Site, which I spent the 2013 Holiday Season (and more) virtually crawling around via the photos. I haven’t gone back into my notes and maps and comments and such regarding that, so I’m writing off of my memory.
I was the one who advised Mr. Turbeyfill as to which of the shelters on the Deployment Site was most likely his son’s. Off the top of my head, I can’t remember what objects were around his shelter.
And, off the top of my head, I think the (only one) chainsaw that was located near a shelter was near Dustin Deford’s. But I’ll have to go back and check on that.
At the point I quit “citizen investigating” the Deployment Site, I did so for two reasons. First I was sick to death at looking at it in detail. Second, I really needed, and asked for, help identifying all the stuff that was photographed on it (being an arm-chair-quarterback ‘civilian”). And I wasn’t getting much help in response. There was all kinds of stuff strewed all over the site.
So I may go back and re-look at these photos. I can’t believe the site wasn’t even remotely adequately mapped in the SAIR. And I complained about that A LOT. But I”m also not surprised.
I agree with RTS somewhere downstream where he wrote that it wasn’t the chemicals found in Travis Turbeyfill that killed him, it was the uber-heated air and fire that killed him.
But I also agree with WTKTT that the apparent lack of throwing stuff AWAY that should have been thrown AWAY says something about deployment training. And I also agree that, if Marsh had TIME to run up to meet them before they died, they had TIME to run down to join him wherever he was, which MIGHT have been a safer place to aim for.
After writing all the above, I’m still mind-boggled that the father of one of these Hotshots had to spend FIFTEEN MONTHS getting the report on his son.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 3, 2015 at 8:23 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Jaw. Dropped.
>>
>> It took THE FATHER of one of the Hotshots FIFTEEN MONTHS to obtain
>> the test results for his son??????
>>
>> I find that something like astonishing.
>>
>> Is that normal?
>>
>> Is there something I am missing in regards to that?
What actually happened was this HUGE controversy when the ‘Arizona Republic’ ( AZCENTRAL ) and another ‘Gannett’ owned news outlets were refused access to ‘public records’ they were requesting shortly after the tragedy, and they ended up filing a Civil Law Suit to obtain them.
They were NEVER asking for any photographs or videos that that were already known to exist that would obvious be ‘disturbing’ to any family member.
There were MOSTLY after the ‘autopsy results’. which were already known to be in the possession of both the Yavapa County Medical Examiner’s Office AND in the possession of the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
AZCENTRAL had already obtained a copy of what amounts to the ‘accident report’ that was already on file at YCSO. That ‘accident report admitted that a YCSO Sheriff had flown in Ranger 58 just before dark and taken both PHOTOS and VIDEOS of the deployment site as it was before the sun even set on June 30, 2013. ( To this day… perhaps only a handful of people have seen THOSE photos/videos even though they are known to exist ).
The YCSO ‘accident report’ ( public information, no question ) also revealed that the following morning, at dawn, the YCSO detectives did, in fact, use their PHARO 3D imaging system to document the deployment site. Few people have ever seen that, either.
But most importantly… the YCSO ‘accident report’ already admitted that copies of the initial ‘autopsy reports’ HAD been delivered to them from the Yavapai County ME Office and WERE in their possession.
So THAT is what AZCENTRAL really was ‘after’. Copies of the autopsy reports.
NOTE: Some initial ‘toxicology’ tests were most assuredly part of those ‘autopsy’ reports but SOME extented toxicology ( which WAS done on all of the deceased ) DOES take some time to process. I don’t think those ‘extended’ toxicology results were even available to the ME at the time AZCENTRAL was making these ‘public document requests’.
Well… of course…. it all hit the fan.
But the ‘autopsy reports’ got swallowed up in the controversy as it became all about the PHOTOS ( which AZCENTRAL kept insisting it wasn’t even all that interested in ).
But Yavapai County Attorney Sheila Polk basically said “no fucking way” was any media group going to get ANY of that ( photos OR autopsy reports ).
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article title: Republic, 12 News sue for Yarnell records
Published: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:53 AM
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130916republic-news-sue-yarnell-records.html
This was the ‘official’ response to the filing of the suit…
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Yavapai County Sheriff Scott Mascher declined comment through a spokesman. County Attorney Sheila Polk said in an e-mail that she is fulfilling a “legal obligation to limit disclosure so as to avoid the infliction of substantial and irreparable private harm.” Polk previously issued a public letter saying the privacy interest of surviving family members trumps the public’s right to know, and that “absent a court order, these items will not be released.”
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NOTE: Mr. David Turbyfill ( father of deceased GM Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) was quoted in this article about the lawsuits being filed by AZCENTRAL…
Also from the same article…
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David Turbyfill, whose son, Travis, was among those killed, said he understands that some families fear what may come out in the media, but he has many unanswered questions. He wants to know if fire commanders were negligent, if deployment shelters need improvement, if hotshots made mistakes.
“I have always thought: The more openness, the better,” said Turbyfill, a former volunteer firefighter who acknowledges his perspective is in the minority among survivor families.
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The ‘Gannett’ media organizations eventually dropped their suit and didn’t even try a separate ‘request’ for just the autopsy reports.
It all quieted down… Christmas 2013 came and went… but then in January of 2014 something happened that never got much attention.
An Arizona State Representative created a BILL ( law ) to be voted on that, despite any/all existing Arizona Open Records laws, would make ALL ‘autopsy photos and results’ PERMANENTLY off-limits except to a limited set of ‘officials’ ( in Arizona ) unless a SUPERIOR COURT Judge said they could have them.
That ‘Arizona State Representative’ who introduced THAT proposed legislation?
( Drum roll, please ).
State Representative Karen Fann, who represents Prescott.
See next ‘Reply’ to a link to an article about THAT nonsense.
And here is the LAW proposed by Karen Fann in January, 2014…
Notice that the same issue as surrounded the lawsuit is on Fann’s mind.
To her… it’s all about the PHOTOS and God forbid anyone should ever see them, but by wrapping the whole thing with the phrase ‘autopsy photos’ the actual ( WRITTEN ) ‘autopsy results’ were getting ‘implied’ as well.
The Arizona Capitol Times
Article Title: Following Yarnell deaths, bill would limit access to autopsy photos
Published: January 21, 2014 , 9:01 am ( Credit: Associated Press )
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2014/01/21/after-yarnell-hill-firefighter-deaths-az-bill-would-limit-access-to-autopsy-photos/
From the article…
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An Arizona lawmaker wants to ensure autopsy photos and videos can only be released with a Superior Court judge’s approval.
State Rep. Karen Fann, a Republican from Prescott, is proposing legislation this month that would have a judge review sensitive images such as photos and X-rays from autopsies before they are released.
“My bill does absolutely nothing to change First Amendment rights at all,” Fann told The Associated Press.
She said the bill stems from county medical examiners concerned about getting embroiled in legal action by anyone seeking the images. The issue became especially apparent this summer as news organizations reported on the Yarnell Hill fire that killed 19 firefighters.
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So no wonder David Turbyfill had trouble getting the results for his own son.
Too many families members were ‘freaking out’ that some PHOTOS might appear and they were already campaigning Karen Fann to “Do something! Pass a frickin’ LAW or something!”.
And Karen Fann was obliging them ( just as she would when discussions turned to using public momeny for a memorial ).
** THE LAW SAILED THROUGH THE ARIZONA HOUSE…
Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) DID actually introduced this new LAW about ‘autopsy’ evidence and it sailed through the Arizona House of Representatives…
FOX10 TV – Phoenix
Article Title: Arizona House OK limiting access to autopsy photos
http://www.fox10tv.com/story/24885222/arizona-house-ok-limiting-access-to-autopsy-photos
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PHOENIX (AP) –
The Arizona House of Representatives has APPROVED a bill that would ban the release of autopsy photos without a court order.
House Bill 2225 was sponsored by Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott. She proposed the bill after the Yavapai County Medical Examiner and the sheriff’s office refused to release photos of the autopsies of 19 firefighters killed in June fighting the Yarnell Hill fire.
Some news organizations sued but eventually dropped the case. An attorney who represents those organizations worked with Fann to craft the bill.
The House voted 55-1 on Tuesday to approve Fann’s bill. It now goes to the Senate for action.
Prosecutors, law enforcement, surviving loved ones, representatives of the estate of the deceased, and research universities would be permitted to obtain autopsy photos.
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Notice that the legislation that was VOTED on ( and passed ) actually DOES include ‘surviving loved ones’ in the short list of people who can ever have access to such material WITHOUT a ‘Court Order’… but Karen Fann is, in fact, now succeeding in putting a huge layer of red-tape on top of the process that didn’t previously exist under normal Arizona Open Records requests.
** IT IS NOW ARIZONA LAW
The ‘autopsy stuff’ bill that Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) introduced also ended up ‘sailing’ through the Arizona Senate, and it was signed into LAW by the Governor on 04/17/14 ( April 17, 2014 ).
Here’s the full 411 on the new Arizona LAW regarding ‘autopsy stuff’…. including copies of the final bill TEXT itself and what Karen Fann was actually able to get away with…
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Session_ID=112&Bill_Number=HB2225
**
** AZCENTRAL WAS NEVER ASKING FOR ‘AUTOPSY PHOTOS’..
Notice in the final BILL that representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) was able to push into LAW ( Arizona House Bill HB2225 ), the whole issue had morphed into ‘autopsy photos’… when that is NEVER what the ‘Arizona Republic’ or Channel 12 was ever really interested in.
Their ORIGINAL request for information was quoted as…
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The Arizona Republic and 12 News have filed suit against the Yavapai County Sheriff’s and Medical Examiner’s offices over their refusal to release investigative records from the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy that left 19 hotshots dead.
The two Gannett news organizations allege in a civil complaint filed Wednesday in Yavapai County Superior Court that diagrams, some photographs and other documents are public records under state law, and Arizona residents have a compelling interest in learning what led to the demise of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots nearly three months ago.
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Keyphrase: SOME photographs.
There is not one mention of them specifically requesting ‘autopsy photographs’.
The photos ( and videos ) that were known to have been taken by a YCSO Police Officer from Helicopter Ranger 58 on June 30, 2013 ( just before dark ) could NOT be considered ‘autopsy photos’… nor ( technically ) could the PHARO 3D images taken the next morning by detectives at the site.
But notice the specific mention of ‘diagrams’ and ‘other documents’ ( E.g. autopsy REPORTS ). Those requests for that important information just got swallowed up in the controversy as it morphed into being all about ‘autopsy photos’.
There actually still is no evidence that any actual ‘autopsy photos’ were ever even taken by the Medical Examiner… although that is, probably, likely.
But that’s not what AZCENTRAL was really asking for in the first place.
Their original request also said…
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David Bodney, attorney for the news organizations, emphasizes in the civil suit that the plaintiffs are seeking the records for news-gathering purposes to ensure the public has a full accounting of what happened. The plaintiffs are not seeking sensitive personal information regarding the firefighters.
Bodney alleges that Yavapai County officials engaged in “repeated stonewalling” and “have offered no legally viable justification for the continued concealment of records.”
The lawsuit seeks a court-ordered release of the documents or a private judicial inspection of records to determine which should be made public.
According to portions of the sheriff’s report that were made public, deputies secured the accident scene, gathered evidence, made videos, took photographs and drew diagrams. The sheriff also received results of autopsies conducted by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner.
Arizona law mandates that public records be open to inspection during business hours. The state Supreme Court has defined a public record as any document “or other material” created or used by a public agency, with certain statutory exemptions.
On July 24, The Republic requested all of the sheriff’s investigative records and images while recognizing that some pictures could be withheld due to extreme sensitivity for survivors of the fallen firefighters.
On Aug. 26, Polk issued a letter declaring that all requested records and images were “not appropriate for public disclosure” and would not be released. Although the law “favors disclosure,” Polk wrote, records are being withheld because “privacy concerns of the firefighters’ families outweigh the public’s interest.”
The Republic and 12 News said in the filing they were not seeking any personal information, including Social Security numbers, birth dates, pre-existing medical conditions or photographs of human remains.
Dan Barr, an attorney for the First Amendment Coalition of Arizona, which advocates for freedom of the press, said Polk appears to have insulated herself from a political backlash that might result from families upset by the release of public records.
Barr said diagrams, evidence records and other materials may be important to an accident analysis.
“The families do not have a privacy interest to protect information from coming out about this fire,” he added.
—————————————————————————-
Marti,
I want you to quit beating yourself up for “being an arm-chair-quarterback civilian.”
That is a good thing and just one of the many reasons why we need and appreciate you and your many talents on this thread.
It’s just that you and I both get into trouble here when we think we know what is going on in the wildland firefighting world of today We are both relatively clueless. But…we can still have opinions and thanks to this blog, we can even post them…right?
So…chin up! .
We agree Gary. Sonny says hi and I will bring him home in the morning vs Hospice/rehab.
Praise the Good Lord!
OK…here is a quick reminder for everyone in the interest of full public disclosure. I said some months ago that I would publish the transcript of Marsh vs. Collura after Joy’s court order expired even though she can’t be held accountable for my actions.
According to my calculations, that will occur on or about January 2, 2016. I am going to do this because I believe some of the things discussed during this hearing are relevant to gaining a full understanding of this tragic event and it’s aftermath.
Plus…if people realize there will eventually be accountability for their actions…they might stop abusing the tragic situation to advance their own personal agendas. I am going to publish the transcript on my wildland firefighter web site since I and I alone am responsible for the content published there and because it makes a good bulletin board.
Which brings up the main point of this post. I will appreciate it if someone, or multiple someone’s who have the toxicology reports from the GMIHC autopsies will email them to me at
[email protected]
I will post them on my website as well…because the public has a right to know. That is how our country works best.
To quote Sonny (I think), “The world was asked to grieve for the Granite Mountain Hotshots and we did.” And now I say because we did, their memory belongs to the world, not just a select few. That is how it works.
Please don’t make me go to all of the time and trouble to get my own copies, you will be needlessly cutting into my personal time and you will only be delaying the inevitable. So…give them up…please.
Or if your copies of the toxicology reports are not in a digital format, please send them to me at;
Gary Olson
2700 S. Woodlands Village Blvd
Ste. 300-287
Flagstaff, Arizona 86001-7114
Thank you for your attention in this matter, I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.
Gary L. Olson
OK, here is a quote from the Mayo Clinic.
“Ethanol acts on cerebral functions as a depressant similar to general anesthetics. This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior. As the level of alcohol increases, the degree of impairment becomes progressively increased.”
And I repeat, “This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior.”
Dulled senses? Impaired thought? Clouded judgment?
“Sure, WTF, let’s just go, I’m tired of sitting up here doing nothing” “Let’s just get out of here. We’ve done this before, and gotten away with it, so let’s just go …”
Add in the lack of quality sleep and all of those get magnified. I can see that happening, the whole WTF part- tired, possible hung over, hot, asses kicked most of the day,pressure from overhead. Screw it, let’s just go
RTS said “The NWCG Fire Shelter training video has this to say about the alleged value of fire shelters: “Since the mid-1970’s, fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing hundreds of serious burn injuries …: REALLY? That may be so to SOME degree, however, MANY of those fire shelter deployments were designated as ‘precautionary’ or not needed at all, because the WFF would have survived WITHOUT the fire shelters, e.g. when the fuels and tool handles in their now DEPLOYMENT ZONE did NOT even burn! This is what’s known as the False Cause Fallacy when an argument mistakenly attempt to establish a causal connection.”
I haven’t agree with anything more since this thread started. That statement has always driven me crazy with frustration and just about the most ridiculous thing anybody could possibly say on the subject other than the fact that wildland firefighters need bigger, better, heavier or more improved fire shelters.
As I have said from the beginning, firefighters need to stop working above uncontrolled wildfires or the case of the GMIHC getting drunk (or getting drunk and then being in various degrees of not being drunk but being severely hung over and operating far from their highest level of proficiency, how much fast could they have made it down that chute if they had not been drunk/hung over?) and hiking in front of one. See the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill, which are the only fires I know pretty well but there are many, many more.
I hated the fire shelters from the first moment I saw it until the last time I saw one and I never knew anyone who believed in it until the NWCG spent so much time and money on a public relations campaign to sell a crock of shit to gullible people.
OK…maybe as a very last resort after you have done everything you were supposed to do and what made common sense and if you do that, you will never need one. As I have said before, we were pushed the envelope at every opportunity and I never even thought that I might have to use one…one time.
Figures don’t lie, BUT LIARS FIGURE! They have save HUNDREDS of lives. Does anybody who stops to think about that statement for one second believe it? If fire shelters would never have been invented, does anybody believe there would have been hundreds of deaths over the past several years? RIDICULOUS!
Has there been HUNDREDS or even dozens of deaths in Canada? Even after you factor in the per-capita differences? NO!
If the NWCG would lie about those numbers, they will lie about everything else.
Gary,
AGREED. Thank you.
When I was on the 1985 Butte Fire on the Salmon NF in Idaho, there was a MASS fire shelter deployment of about 70 WFF. It was absolutely ridiculous and totally unnecessary because the grass, Tin Cup Hill sign, and tool handles at the Carson HS Deployment Site NEVER burned.
In addition, I overheard one of the alleged ‘Investigators’ talking on the phone one day to a superior. This alleged ‘Investigator’ told his superior:(paraphrasing here) ‘There were a lot of f**k ups on this fire, but we’re going to make sure the report says that fire shelter training and their WFF supervisors made good decisions to deploy fire shelters and that’s what saved their lives.’
AND SO BEGAN ‘THE FIRE SHELTER MOVEMENT.’
The grass didn’t burn? Hahahaha! Dodged a real bullet there…
I was CRWB trainee once and we were ordered to an identified safety zone. I didn’t like it and we marched back to the bus up on the main road. Upon return the next morning the ‘safety zone’ was burnt to the ground. I wouldn’t have felt comfortable deploying my shelter there. Assholes.
Oh and that’s the fire I told them was likely to escape on our division at the end of shift and they didn’t care. Unstaffed at night. Mid-morning the next day was when we retreated to this ‘safety zone’ and ended up making the right call not to stay there. An hour later the fire licked up and over the fuckin continental divide. IMT proudly proclaimed that we were the number 1 priority fire in the country at the next morning briefing. Good job. Way to go. We’re number one! Assholes…
Woodsman
The Salmon Fire The Safety zone was in a huge Logged Cut Block.
Nothing was in it severial Acers Standing in the Middle with even 200 People there was a buffer of over 300 feet in any direction there was grass but not that much.
IT WAS A BOMB PROOF SZ.
A couple of overhead panicked and ordered the deployment when it was not necessary. Severial IC’s and teams on review in R4 were quite adamant that there was absolutely no reason to deploy. But it is still used as an example of the Fire Shelters worth. It was actually Laughable by many R4 FF who were on the Fire.
Evidently RTS as well.
It was long discussed by Many in R4 who knew the Facts. Stupid and unnecessary.
We could discuss this particular fire and the fire shelter implications for hours.
One finding in the Butte Fire Shelter Deployment ‘Investigation’ witness statements was that there were at least two (2) Overhead/Supervisors that admitted to this particular incident being their SECOND and THIRD fire shelter deployments; one a Crew Boss and one a Strike Team Leader.
The Crew Boss wanted fire shelters designed so that Crew Overhead had small windows on their fire shelters so they could move around checking on their WFF’s without actually having to get out of their shelters.
facepalm……………………………………..
there are no words……………..just………
facepalm……………………………………..
“Butte Fire Shelter Deployment”
via WildlanFireLLC on YouTube
co-starring Fred Schoeffler and Roy Hall
https://youtu.be/2DFggibCDbs
“Published on Apr 23, 2014
On August 29th 1985 seventy three firefighters deployed their fire shelters on the Butte fire in Idaho.”
On behalf of us “civilians” who are, honestly, trying to make sense of this whole “fire shelter” controversy:
Did you, RTS, at the time, think the fire shelter deployment was unnecessary? Or did you, at the time think it was, and have, since then, changed your mind?
I’m really sincere in asking about this. I’d really appreciate your more detailed comments about this, as long as it’s being hinted to here.
To be honest, I do agree that the whole thing of, mentally, “relying” on fire shelters as a rationale for doing things that shouldn’t be done is a road increasingly leading into FAIL
Even though I respect (partially) Turbyfill’s attempt to get the PowersThatBe to evolve those shelters.
Since this was brought up here, (in bits and pieces) I’d (as a civilian) really appreciate a bit more of a detailed description of how you viewed (at the time) and view (now) this deployment.
And I’m so glad you have decided to become more active here. Seriously.
Namaste.
And I’m also truly thankful that “Our Counselor” isn’t here to derail these conversations.
Marti,
YES and NO to your question “Did you, RTS, at the time, think the fire shelter deployment was unnecessary? Or did you, at the time think it was, and have, since then, changed your mind?”
There were actually three separate fire shelter deployment locations – Tin Cup Hill (Carson HS) and to the West where the two Type 2 Crews – the Jemez Eagles (NM) and Flame-n-Go (UT Inmates) sheltered up close to each other yet separately.
First off, the HUGE CLEAR CUT near Drop Point 29 was always the primary Safety Zone for the Payson and Flagstaff Hot Shots, and these Crews suggested to all other Resources, including Overhead, that this should be the primary Safety Zone. They were ignored and rebuffed.
YES, the fire shelter deployment was ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY for the Carson HS in the large ‘Safety Zone’ on Tin Cup Hill. It was large enough (400′ diameter) to move around in it to avoid advancing flame lengths.
And for the other two Type 2 Crews, their fire shelter deployments were most likely NECESSARY as they more-or-less allowed the fire to sneak up on them by not following the WFF Rules. Morons!
Their RH trigger point, for several days had been “either 4:00 [PM] or 20% [RH], whichever comes first.” The Payson and Flagstaff HS Crews hit 20% RH at 1:30 PM that day and pulled out to the clear cut, their primary Safety Zone. They notified the Carson HS on NUMEROUS occasions to come down into the Clear Cut SZ, however, what they heard instead over the radio was: “we’re improving our SZ, … we’re removing our shelters, … we’re deploying our shelter, … deploy, deploy, deploy.” They were within about 15 minutes hike downhill to the clear cut SZ, they could be seen working above them. The Carson HS Supt. never passed on the warning to the Jemez Eagles or to the Flame-n-Go Crew nor did they acknowledge the warnings Payson and Flagstaff HS were passing on.
Even the Overhead (DIVS, STLC, and others) ignored their warnings and told them to get back to work. They had been heli-torching down below to the south all day long (as the preheated air advected north under a southwest wind). At around 4:00 PM, three large columns developed, then turned into one very large column, and ‘The Rhino’ charged up the hill with plenty of warning as it had for several days prior. The Crews were to then fire out the unburned line and “it would all come together like a block burn and we could go home” according to the morning briefing. Yeah, right!
The Payson and Flagstaff HS Superintendents gave these Crews and Overhead plenty of warnings over the radio regarding the approaching fire from down below.
The ground was literally SHAKING and the flame lengths were in excess of 1000′ – ripping trees out of the ground as ‘The Rhino’ fire came up the hill toward them. The Payson Supt. says ‘200’ flame lengths’ in the Butte Shelter video and later admitted to making that all up because he didn’t want WFF to get the idea that the fire shelters performed under those conditions. That was the whole goal of the video, to promote fire shelters, because they were supposed to only work in light, flashy fuels and NOT big timber as on the Butte Fire.
This is a MUCH BETTER video to watch instead of the Butte Fire Shelter one. It’s titled ‘Look Up, Look Down, Look Around.” The Butte Fire Shelter Deployment video was the genesis of ‘The Fire Shelter Movement.’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUP4lrK1dUw
Marti,
And I’m patiently waiting for TWO answers: (1) your CDF electrical system link and (2) my email to you regarding Prescott college when you were a young lass.
ha ha ha ha
Marti emails?
hee hee
I am still awaiting one from the Summer 2015
to give her much credit…FULL PLATE…MOVING…FAMILY LOSS…etc…
Popping pocorn for our campfire here….
smiles
Gotcha both RTS and Joy.
Spent the whole last day and a half trying to figure out how to enroll in ACA, given my Diabetes circumstances.
Something I need to do SOON.
(After being pushed onto Medicaid the past year and a half, and then my my mom dying in the middle of that, and, therefore, me inheriting the ESTATE, altho all the legalities of that are still unfinished and have to be done before the 31st of December).
Yikes complexities.
So I’ll check emails. eventually.
Namaste to both of you!
Copy. Thinking. Will be thinking more tomorrow. I’m braindead at the moment (see below).
Thanks, RTS!!
I should have said “see above.” Crazy threads. I never know where anything is going to land.
Marti,
You have to think about thinking more tomorrow ….
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 1, 2015 at 1:12 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> The autopsy and toxicology process took place on July 2, 2013, in Maricopa
>> County because the Yavapai County Medical Examiners were obviously
>> overwhelmed.
>>
>> Yes, there were ‘gasoline products’ both in their brains and/or lungs in ALL of them.
>>
>> Some of these products, benzene for example, are also the result of natural
>> phenomenon, like “forest fires” according to the relevant research.
>>
>> Basically, the three most common combustion products found in WFF fatality
>> toxicology reports are:
>>
>> BENZENE
>> TOLUENE
>> XYLENE (PVC)
>>
>> And no doubt, all the other crap they had close by them , off-gassed some
>> of these toxins as well, including the adhesive in their fire shelters, based
>> on former (MTDC) Missoula Technology Development Center reports and research.
Thank you RTS.
That matches what Mr. David Turbyfill has already reported about his own son’s toxicology report.
But since you seem to have had more than just a ‘passing glance’ at ALL of the Toxicology reports… what about the DRUG and ALCOHOL testing results… which were MANDATORY?
Were ANY of those guys DRUNK or HIGH when they died?
Examples….
– 0.08 percent BAL ( Blood Alcohol Level ) is ‘legally drunk’ in pretty much every State in the Union, including Arizona.
– Any trace of meds like amphetamines… or steroids?
– Any THC traces? ( weed ).
– Eric Marsh was still recovering from a bad shoulder injury in a biking accident. Any traces of painkillers like Oxycontin, others? If so… what concentrations?
WTKTT,
Gary posted: “I believe based on the stories that I have heard that a very high percentage of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were still drunk when they went on the line on the Yarnell Hill Fire and furthermore, I believe their physical and mental condition due to their alcohol consumption was a major contributing factor in their deaths.
I believe the toxicology reports when and if they are ever released will support this theory.”
Robert the Second says
December 2, 2015 at 9:11 pm
Gary, The toxicology reports when they are ever released will support this theory
Well..there it is then. This is the tragedy that just keeps getting worse and worse.
Who would have ever thought that we would be discussing this kind of thing after two years?
Did the people who have been sitting on this for so long think it would stay a secret forever?
We can still mourn the loss of everyone on the crew in spite of what role they played in this event. But we should not be expected to mourn them under false pretensions, or lies, or cover-ups.
How very sad.
Police facts— when you stop drinking you lose .01% Alcohol from the Blood per hour.
BAC. At 0600 depending on how drunk some were they would have lost
.04% BAC from bar closing at 2 AM so those that were drinking till then and reporting for duty would be considered under the influence at 0600 Maybe not .08 or maybe so, and a Major hang over by the Time they hit the fire line or more depending on how drunk they got that night??????
No matter what you do the BAC only reduces at the .01% per hour.
You can not increase it by sweating it out it is in your blood thru the stomach. our filtration system dose the rest thru blood flow.
Some one at say .16% BAC would take 16 hours to reduce the Alcohol to 0% 9 Hours to be below .08 which is the DUI level.
Yikes! San Bernardino!
I spent a bunch of time “there” yesterday reading about the whole WUI thing.
I guess what’s going on right now there might be comparable to Initial Attack on a quickly expanding wildfire in the Wildland Urban Interface?
Because it’s pretty crazy there right now.
Direct quote from the San Bernadino FBI District Chief at the press conference held just a few moments agi…
“Any good investigator knows that you have to GO where the evidence LEADS you… and not try to make the evidence fit any particular narrative. This story will be told… and it will be told by the EVIDENCE we assemble… ALL of it… and in order to do it RIGHT… you have to remember it’s a marathon and not a sprint. Next question.”
Yes. He’s really good. I think they are handling this incredibly well.
Namaste to San Bernardino!
PS KTLA has and is covering this, relentlessly, live, and really, really well:
http://ktla.com/2015/12/02/authorities-respond-to-20-victim-shooting-incident-in-san-bernardino-fire-dept/
They keep talking about an “abundance of caution” in this, essentially, seriously dangerous, Initial Attack.
The handling of this, and KTLA’s coverage of this is, imho, outstanding. Kudos!
They just broke until 10 PM PT.
OK They’re back broadcasting. And very well done. Talking about the FBI.
Speaking of Coroner and Toxicology reports since that is being brought up.
WTKTT could you bring up the info that Dave Turbyfill stated way down on the Report on his son.
Cant find it.
Called an old Friend of mine whose Son was on the SAIT investigation on the Yarnell Fire.
He just got back to me with some disturbing news.
The SAIT never had or got the Coroners report or any Toxicology reports.
WTF is going on here????????????
The County should have released them to the Team and the Public. Delete the Pictures and release the report.
Just for reference Federal, State, and County/City Employees in any Accident or death are required to have a complete Toxicology report on blood content. Drugs, Alcohol Etc.
Those results are there they should be available. Hat this gone to trial those reports would have been available. The Lawyers had to have copies. They should be available under freedom of information Act. There may in fact be some critical information never released to the public.
The information on location of bodies amount of burns, did they die inside or outside Shelters.
Were the Shelters compromised by the Chain Saw Gas explosions? The lessons learned includes a lot of secondary information about the deployment site the Shelters they can tell by extent of burns if some were in their shelters or never made the Shelters.
Here again we have a lack of investigation by the SAIT what did they not want to know or have released?????
I posted this yesterday, so bringing this up out of the weeds.
Robert the Secondsays
DECEMBER 1, 2015 AT 1:12 PM
WTKTT,
The autopsy and toxicology process took place on July 2, 2013, in Maricopa County because the Yavapai County Medical Examiners were obviously overwhelmed.
Yes, there were ‘gasoline products’ both in their brains and/or lungs in ALL of them. Some of these products, benzene for example, are also the result of natural phenomenon, like “forest fires” according to the relevant research.
Basically, the three most common combustion products found in WFF fatality toxicology reports are:
BENZENE
TOLUENE
XYLENE (PVC)
And no doubt, all the other crap they had close by them , off-gassed some of these toxins as well, including the adhesive in their fire shelters, based on former (MTDC) Missoula Technology Development Center reports and research.
NO SHIT … HYDROGEN CYANIDE, a component of the ADHESIVES used in the shelter, was found in SOME tests, however, the researchers were not clear on whether or not they were more closely associated with the nearby combustible toxins in the vehicles. This is covered in some detail in Appendix B – Characterizing Gases Generated in Vehicles and Fire Shelters.
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm97512817/
This is a link for a very comprehensive MTDC study researching all types of flammable products and protective products including WFF PPE and fire shelters. The title of the September 1997 report is: ‘Surviving Fire Entrapments Comparing Conditions Inside Vehicles and Fire Shelters.’
Richard Mangan – Program Leader, USDA Forest Service
Technology and Development Program; Missoula, Montana
7E62P87-Vehicle Entrapment; 9751-2817-MTDC
Vehicles were extensively studied and found to contain high levels of deadly compounds. No shit Sherlock!
So then, it seems pretty obvious to me that we need to make our fire shelters and other protective devices out of the video camera housing material, similar to the ‘black box’ material for aircraft recording devices. Then again, maybe that’s NOT such a good idea, because then WFF may rely on them instead of following the Basic WFF Rules.
As the saying goes: If you deploy a fire shelter, someone f**ked up
Thank you… RTS. It wasn’t ‘lost in the weeds’. I definitely saw that and thank you for that. See below where my own original post from back in the previous Chapter (16) is also reproduced. David Turbyfill ( Travis Turbyfill’s father ) told the story of what HIS son’s toxicology report showed ‘in his own words’ on his own public Facebook page.
The ‘poisonous adhesives’ in the fire shelters themselves is an ongoing issue and by all rights, we should be hearing a LOT more about that.
You and I ( and a shitload of other taxpayers ) are the ones PAYING for these fucking things. I want them to DO IT RIGHT or NOT DO IT AT ALL.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 2, 2015 at 10:15 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Speaking of Coroner and Toxicology reports since that is being brought up.
>> WTKTT could you bring up the info that Dave Turbyfill stated way down
>> on the Report on his son. Cant find it.
Mr. David Turbyfill first spoke publicly about his own son Travis’ autopsy AND toxicology reports ( and how even HE had to FIGHT to obtain them ) on his own PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Realities’ Faceook page.
The full ‘summary’ that I posted about what Mr. Turbyfill said publicly was back in the previous chapter and this link takes you directly to that original ‘story’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-303698
Highlights from the link above…
===============================================================================================
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 2, 2015 at 7:13 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And now I can even add, “especially if that same person demonstrated
>> such an extreme lack of good judgment he got the entire crew sent home
>> because he was in an assignment as an acting squad boss in charge of
>> a significant portion of his crew drinking alcohol and smoking dope on the
>> fire line which included the saw team.”
I was actually just about to post something related to this that I thought I had already posted but just recently realized it never made it to the forum.
Back in the last Chapter ( XV / 15 ) when this ‘incident’ involving Eric Marsh was being discussed… there was some back-and-forth regarding the autopsy reports for all the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots and whether or not they included full toxicology panels, including standard drug testing.
The ASSUMPTION was that standard toxicology/drug tests HAD been done, since even the Medical Examiner’s Office said that is STANDARD procedure… and there is also evidence that some ‘extended’ toxicology was also performed that actually took a few months to complete.
Well… since that discussion… I came across PROOF that those ‘extended’ toxicology tests WERE performed for ALL of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and they tested for just about everything drug and/or chemical under the sun.
The PROOF actually comes from Mr. David Turbyfill, the father of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.
He, himself, made an extended effort to obtain ALL of these ‘toxicology’ test results for his own son, Travis. It took him 15 months to finally ‘win’ and get his own copies… but he succeeded.
And then he TALKED about those toxicology results on a PUBLIC Facebook page of his.
David Turbyfill has, for a long time now, had a special Facebook page called “Yarnell Fire Realities”.
It is here…
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities
He referenced the ‘autopsy’ and ‘toxicology’ report(s) he finally received copies of several times on this Facebook page so I’ll just take those one by one.
Here is the Facebook Comment where David Turbyfill first says he finally received the autopsy results he had been trying for 15 months to obtain.
It’s his ‘list’ item number 9 in this comment he posted in December, 2014…
———————————————————————————
Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
Posted December 27, 2014 ·
Goodbye 2014 Hello 2015
As we close in on saying goodbye to 2014 I thought I would share a few thoughts. I’ve been pretty quiet on here the past
several months,
1. Found and tested, and developed a demonstration video of a proposed materials for fire shelter.
2. Met with Congressional Representative Paul Gosar, concerning fire shelters.
3. Submitted materials to the US Forest Service, for initial testing.
4. I’ve been to multiple national memorials,
5. We have seen the first year anniversary of losing the Granite Mountain Crew.
6. US Forest Service has asked for additional materials, for third-party testing, we were informed that our materials would be sample #12, my lucky number.
7. I’m delighted to think that there is at least some possibility of changes coming to the existing fire shelter, that there are at least 11 good ideas for these changes.
8. Absolutely disappointed by the actions of our community leaders, and their decision to disband the Wildland division in Prescott.
9. After more than 15 months of desperately trying to find the mechanics of what happened to my son, I had finally received a copy of his autopsy.
So as we go into 2015 and look ahead to the 2015 fire season, I would hope to have an open dialogue with the wildland fire community, and invite all to comment so if you are former or active fire or know somebody who is please invite them to this page.
Well wishes
David Turbyfill
————————————————————————-
The next DAY ( December 28, 2014 ), Mr. Turbyfill mentions some of the CONTENT of the TOXICOLOGY results and the concentrations of certain compounds and elements that were found in blood and tissue samples via the ‘extended’ testing…
————————————————————————-
Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
Posted December 28, 2014 at 5:58 pm
…additionally carbon monoxide only being one. Travis’s autopsy showed only a small presence of CO, but found these, Benzene, Toluene and Xylene was present in his lungs, bloodstream, and brain tissue.
————————————————————————-
Then again, on that same day ( December 28, 2014 ), Mr. Turbyfill was continuing an exchange on his Facebook page with someone named ‘Amy Rucker’… and he again mentions things that he has ‘learned’ from the autopsy and toxicology results HE now has.
And in this next exchange, he makes a rather startling claim.
He appears to be saying that the autopsy and toxicology results for Travis indicate that some of the fatal inhalations were from things the Granite Mountain Hotshots were carrying WITH them in their packs.
Remember that it has been proven with photographic evidence that MANY of the Granite Mountain Hotshots did NOT ‘throw their packs clear of the deployment area’ as they were (supposedly) trained to do. Indeed… some of them deployed right NEXT to their packs.
————————————————–
Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
Posted December 28, 2014
So to Amy Rucker… I see that you work as a Public Information Specialist at United States Wildland Fire Aviation, before you write a comment you should check into the issue before making broad statements such as yours.
So to your point about Fire Shelter
Survivability.
The Issue has not been beat to death. The whole point of a Fire Shelter is to create a LOWER TEMPERATURE
SPACE for the firefighter.
Since this has been such a “Sensitve” subject for most concerned, none of the parties that should have the Autopises, do NOT have them. So consequently I seem to be the only one concerned that does.
I know exactly the toxicins Travis inhaled and how conscious Travis was when he died.
Travis perished because of the Items that he and the Crew carried with them.
Had he and the others had a better shelter that could with stand Direct Thermal Contact the out come may have been different.
In closing I leave you with this…..a quote from 2004…
“Safety is a core value of the firefighting community, and it is non-negotiable.
To continue to use these contract large airtankers when no mechanism exists to guarantee their airworthiness presents an unacceptable level of risk to the aviators, the firefighters on the ground and the communities we serve.”
2004 USFS Chief Dale Bosworth
—————————————————————–
That’s pretty much the last mention Mr. Turbyfill makes on his PUBLIC Facebook page of what is in the toxicology report(s) he received.
===============================================================================================
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Called an old Friend of mine whose Son was on the SAIT investigation
>> on the Yarnell Fire. He just got back to me with some disturbing news.
>> The SAIT never had or got the Coroners report or any Toxicology reports.
>> WTF is going on here????????????
A coordinated attempt ( using taxpayer dollars ) to prevent a proper investigation of a terrible accident in an equally fully-taxpayer funded workplace.
The STORY of how this incident was NOT investigated is now more sordid than the circumstances leading to the deaths themselves.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The County should have released them to the Team and the Public. Delete
>> the Pictures and release the report.
But first they have to even ASK for them.
They ( Jim Karels, Mike Dudley, and the rest of the SAIT people ) didn’t WANT to see them.
They had already decided early on what ‘the story’ was going to be and they didn’t want any FACTS intruding on that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Just for reference Federal, State, and County/City Employees in any
>> Accident or death are required to have a complete Toxicology report
>> on blood content. Drugs, Alcohol Etc.
Absolutely correct. And those tests WERE performed on ALL of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots. There is no doubt about that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Those results are there they should be available.
They always have been… to anyone who cared enough to WANT to see theml
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Had this gone to trial those reports would have been available.
>> The Lawyers had to have copies.
You can bet on that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They should be available under freedom of information Act.
Yes… but not even those ‘forms’ are necessary. They should also be freely obtainable with a simpler Arizona Open Records request.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There may in fact be some critical information never released to the public.
Yep.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The information on location of bodies amount of burns, did they die
>> inside or outside Shelters. Were the Shelters compromised by the
>> Chain Saw Gas explosions? The lessons learned includes a lot
>> of secondary information about the deployment site the Shelters
>> they can tell by extent of burns if some were in their shelters or never
>> made the Shelters.
I’m not sure most of that ( regarding Shelters ) was something the Medical Examiner was required to even take a look at. His focus is ( and rightly so ) the victims and what caused them to die. The Medical Examiner’s office is not an ‘investigative’ body.
Someone had to decide to actually INVESTIGATE this incident to discover all the other things you mention regarding the Shelters.
No one ever did ( actually investigate ) this incident. Not really.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Here again we have a lack of investigation by the SAIT what did they
>> not want to know or have released?????
The TRUTH.
And they have now spent ( and continue to spend ) a SHITLOAD of taxpayer dollars trying to fulfill their own misguided personal agenda(s).
You all definitely want to peruse the NWCG MTDC Report link I posted above. There’s a lot of good information in there.
The FIRE and the Superheated Air and Thermal Burns killed these men. It was NOT because of their fire packs and gear stacked near them or any minor amount of off-gassing from their gear. And it was NOT because of the Fire Shelter qualities.
Knowing, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules works every time. The Fire Shelters are NOT the answer!
RTS,
“Knowing, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules works every time. The Fire Shelters are NOT the answer!”
For the love of everything holy, THANK YOU for saying that!
You have to be a wildand firefighter and hump that bastard around with you for hours, days, weeks, and years to fully appreciate what you’re saying here. The first ones were a little cumbersome and the latest ones are larger and heavier. The last time I inspected it, it didn’t look the greatest as it’s hauled all over the damn place, leaned against, thrown in and out of the truck, engine, UTV, etc. It takes a beating even though it’s in a plastic reinforced ‘container’ inside the bag, inside my cordura pouch. Wildland is a rough world. I don’t know if I can take a larger and heavier one.
That being said, I do have it with me and respect it for what it is…an ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT!
My wife and kids compete in cross country races. I cheer them on. When someone asks me why I am not entered in the race, I tell them I only run if I’m being chased by a bear or fire or something.
I now humbly submit myself to the wrath of the shelter updaters for my tongue lashing……
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Thanks you so much for this statement regarding your fire shelter: “I do have it with me and respect it for what it is…an ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT!”
I carry one ONLY because I am REQUIRED to carry one. I am an ‘Improved Fire Shelter’ denier. I am totally opposed to designing new and improved fire shelters. The efforts need to be on TRAINING our WFF on the Basics, The WFF Rules!
The NWCG Fire Shelter training video has this to say about the a;eged value of fire shelters: “Since the mid-1970’s, fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing hundreds of serious burn injuries …: REALLY? That may be so to SOME degree, however, MANY of those fire shelter deployments were designated as ‘precautionary’ or not needed at all, because the WFF would have survived WITHOUT the fire shelters, e.g. when the fuels and tool handles in their now DEPLOYMENT ZONE did NOT even burn! This is what’s known as the False Cause Fallacy when an argument mistakenly attempt to establish a causal connection.
Remember, a SAFETY ZONE is somewhere a WFF seeks refuge from the fire where they do NOT deploy a fire shelter. And many of these alleged fire shelter deployments occurred in alleged Safety Zones, nullifying it as a Safety Zone. Once this happens it becomes a Deployment Zone. Like Woodsman, I despise the term Deployment Zone in training sessions and /or briefings.
So that being said, I’m here to tell you that KNOWING, UNDERSTANDING, AND FOLLOWING THE WFF RULES, WHICH INCLUDES RECOGNIZING AND MITIGATING ANY WATCH OUT SITUATIONS, IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SAVING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WFF LIVES EACH AND EVERY YEAR!
T
Those men tragically died a very painful death that day. The ONLY MANUFACTURED safety device that would/could have saved them at their chosen ‘Deployment Site’ was a shipping container (or two) made of BLACK BOX MATERIAL that houses the aircraft flight data and cockpit voice recorders.
http://natgeotv.com/uk/air-crash-investigation/black-box
RTS:
Preach it, Brother! Uncle! Grandfather…whatever the hell you are! You know of which you speak! LISTEN TO HIM, all you wildland ff’s out there in cyberworld. LISTEN TO WHAT RTS IS TELLING YOU!!! READ THE WORDS! PRINT IT OUT AND LAMINATE IT! MAKE COPIES! HAND EM OUT TO ALL YOUR BUDDIES!! Heed those words and you will live.
I don’t really know when ‘Deployment Zone’ showed up but to me it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you know what I mean. Most people on this site are smarter than me and I’m ok with that. I know what I know and a new Super duper fire shelter can not make up for a situation where multiple basic wildland firefighting rules are broken. It will catch up to you. A fire shelter is NOT a free pass to save your rear due to bad decision making. THAT is MY fact of MY wff life.
Listen to your qualified elders!
Woodsman
RTS and Woodsman,
You guys are right on!!
Man…if this was the 60-70’s…a poster of RTS would be hanging in my room next to the Hardy Boys and Partridge Family David Cassidy and Monkees Davey Jones…that was so well said and truly you are now to me the coolest…
I find the numismatic and gun forums have the straight news on San Bernardino event…they found pipe bombs..remote control cars…all three are from Qatar.. ItIt was premeditated…
So Sonny has surgery in a few hours… I stayed by his side all day and will remain here in ICU room until he comes back in…upon his request.
I’m at filibertos with my husband figuring out home stuff because Sonny just was told he can never live alone and I know I can get him rolling again…just takes obedience and new routine…
I’m tired but I had to say right on rts
Just for the record…I never hung idol posters up in my life not
even fella Galen Gering when his lady sent me one long ago…ain’t my style…now taxidermy my desert finds is more like it..I have a drunk jackrabbit holding a guineas stout leaning on a dead cholla..I have a transgender deer…and list goes on like a buck tooth rabbit and a squirrel riding a Mojave…but not a poster child except my husband thinks I should be on milk containers as missing…I can understand that since I’m never home. My neighbors recently said they see me more in the desert than home..duh…the desert is my home..
Joy,
Thanks for the compliments. I’m humbled.
Mmmmm…… Filiberto’s! Washington sucks as far as Mexican food goes.
I have to agree Gary-
My husband likes Filibertos
I am not a fan of any eatery—
I like going to AJs or farmer’s markets—but hard for me to like a restaurant— they feed the world wrong—if I opened a restaurant it would be as I use to do— all from scratch healthy meals —-
Hey Gary-
what do you call cheese that isn’t yours?
Nacho cheese.
speaking food and humor and way tired—-
seems now ICU has Sonny at rest and I cleaned his cabin today…and getting it ready for home evaluation…
Sonny is like leave it be—come see me—“nnnooowww”
Yet the nurse said he has some item in him and they prefer him to rest and so I am torn if I should take this time to rest after all day cleaning or go up— they say he is sleeping so I am thinking I will crash too.
anymore humor?
topic this week— alcohol.
so here is a food/bar joke-
Mushroom walks in a bar, bartender says “Hey you can’t drink here.”
Mushroom says “Why not, I’m a Fun-gi!
alright I am way tired
good night
RTS- serious, something about you from day one—your posts always stood out—You really seem very caring and I guess being so drained and over extended I am just going through the days—but yeah I am pleased to say the I M site would not be the same if you ever did a Marti/Gary respite—
Sonny- if you read this. I took Leonard to legion for hamburger and there was some sort of miixer tonight in town—
everybody is wishing you well.
so many said they have been lately speaking of the fire and as well the special relations of the mountain man and cookie cutter subdivision lady—how very wonderful they said—our unique adventuresome spirits—They are all pleased to this day all the hardwork we did for them—thanking us for our strength to help them move forward…also was thanked for my continued spirit and connection to all—and the Earth—and for the world.
RUMOR around town, Sonny—you died Monday.
If you did I have been in one bad cloud and in denial—
NEXT STOP WILLOUGHBY…
THE NEVER ENDING CYCLE…TRAIN RIDE…OF SONNY N JOY—
There is a new book out…not on the YHF…page 11…http://www.yellowsheet.net/…very sweet lady…stopped by to visit her today…Patricia Gould…
Part 2 of 2
I have written this before, but I want to again in the context of what we know now, which is a lot more than we knew when I wrote it the last time. And in the eternal words of Rummy, our former Secretary of WAR, who never learned of a third world country he did not think we should invade for their own good, “There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.”
But the simple fact remains; I would never have been selected to be a hotshot crew boss in today’s wildland firefighter world. My excessive negative reaction to heavy and continual smoke inhalation would never have allowed me to gain the years of experience that is required of today’s hotshot leaders.
And that is a good thing. Selecting a 23 year old hardcore hotshot from the back of the bus to be the crew boss based in large part on his desire to be a hardcore hotshot on a forest that built a hyper hotshot program on steroids, was probably not the best selection criteria to promote responsible leadership all things considered.
Don’t get me wrong, I am eternally grateful they did, and almost everything eventually worked out for the best in the end…more or less. But it was probably touch and go more times than I care to remember…or admit with Bob and RTS reading this blog.
And as I have also stated before, that is why I was and continue to be so shocked at what happened to the GMIHC. Not in this day and age of enlightenment…not even in my day and age, which as I have said before were the Dark Ages, whereas the Loop Fire by contrast burned in the Stone Age of wildland firefighting.
I have posted another photo to show everyone what hotshots look like when they are on the verge of heat exhaustion as we crowded together behind a rock to find some relief from the brutal sun on a Tonto desert fire. Because of our close proximity to the Tonto National Forest, (we were above the Mongollon Rim, they were below it) desert fires on the Tonto were our bread and butter while we were waiting to go someplace better…which was almost anywhere else.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Desert fires on the Tonto, and not all of the Tonto consists of the magnificent and beautiful Sonoran Desert (see Payson and Pleasant Valley Ranger Districts), but much of it does. The ambient daytime temperatures on desert fires can easily reach 110 degrees Fahrenheit or more.
Being able to carry enough water at about eight pounds per gallon in order to stay hydrated was always problematic considering the places we had to go. Just as eating the mystery meat frozen sandwiches dropped off by a supply slick without getting the white bread so soggy that it dissolved into goo as they were broken open and thawed on hot rocks was always a challenge. As a rule of thumb, we always placed an order for twice as much water as we wanted; hoping we would at least get half as much as we needed. No water…no work…no shit.
I often tell people, if you can stick with my stories long enough, there is almost always a point to them. And here it is. The Yarnell Hill Fire was not on the Tonto, but it was on the lower half of the Prescott, which can be almost just as bad. It was a little higher than most desert fires because it was, “Where the desert breeze meets the mountain air” as the Yarnell Chamber of Commerce likes to proclaim. But it was still the desert and it was still hot in the sun during the day, really hot.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was no place for a crew who were mostly kids as the Woodsman has said, who had been drinking alcohol in the quantities all of the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence suggests they were almost right up to the point they went back on the clock at zero dark thirty hours. They should not have been sent or taken to any wildfire under those circumstances, much less one that was in the heat of the desert and going to hell in a hand basket.
Now I am old enough to have the time to sit long enough in my big and tall La-Z-Boy recliner without kids wanting me to go play with them…or buy them something, or both, and think things through. As a result, I now realize I possibly could have been responsible for frying Big Willies brain or killing him since he couldn’t remain standing on his feet any longer in the extreme heat of the desert on that fire. Instead I was focused on teaching him and everyone else a lesson about the evils of strong drink when they are out of sync with the rest of the crew.
In retrospect, I probably should have had Big Willie medevaced since he was clearly in heat distress just as the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew should have never been taken or sent to the Yarnell Hill Fire…for lots of reasons.
See…that’s one more reason why this event was so unfair. I got to learn from my mistakes and I am still learning from them. None of those kids on that crew got to live long enough to learn from their mistakes…or anyone else’s in the minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years before their deaths.
OCYMB,
Well said. I feel the same pain you are feeling laid out in your last paragraph.
Woodsman
And OCYMB means what?
Olde Codger Yet Magnificent Bastard
LOLOL! I was wondering that, too!
That was discussed in some detail downstream but you must have called in sick that day. My consistent negative attitude where I see that not only is the glass half empty, but I strongly suspect someone has pissed in it has finally paid off with a title I can buy into.
I have been searching for something since all of my other titles I worked so hard for my entire life were stripped away when I retired.
As someone I respect told me the other day in an email…”oh boo hoo you poor thing, you have to blog half the night while you pretend you are writing a book you will never finish, sleep in and then either go ride ATV’s or go Jeeping while you wait for your dear wife to tell you to take her somewhere nice for the weekend.”
Or it was something like that. I didn’t actually finish reading the email, I was too sleepy and went and took a nap instead..
Funny…I caught it…I knew what you meant
Yes, that was my not so veiled reference to the fact that they died because of really bad decisions made by others….Marsh, Steed and Willis. Willis because he put such a deeply flawed person in charge when he either knew or should have known how flawed Marsh was.
Yep.
Which is why, imho, the Families folded. They thought they wanted “The Truth.” Until the “rumors” of the “argument” started surfacing. And all that potential messiness.
After months and months and months and months of a mythological image of the Heroic Crew Looking Down From Heaven had evolved.
Too bad the Youngers of that crew weren’t among the Anointed (and thus the Protected).
Thankfully Grant McKee’s father STILL hasn’t Folded. Kudos to him.
One of these days I really do hope to write about this fire (etc etc etc etc) on Daily Kos (otherwise know to us intimates as the Great Orange Satan).
But, truly, I don’t even know where to begin.
I believe there was more than just the Arguments.
The State had some other info that pushed the Families into a settlement.
Possibly something they did not want released in a trial– as always there is more out there than we have seen.
Copy, Bob.
I getcha. Thanks for that.
well said
Well stated Gary. ANY desert fire on day shift was dreadful enough, but any fire on the Tonto NF during a day shift was horrific and painful, especially if you weren’t used to working in the heat, like the at-the-time, whimpy HS Crews from the Mighty Coconino on top of the cool Mogollon Rim. They HATED coming down to fight fires on the Tonto NF.
KNOWN hangovers were dealt with in either of three (3) ways for us: (1) Indian Runs, basically running wind sprints for an hour to sweat the alcohol out of their systems, when we were at the Base, or (2) Power Hikes, generally hiking hills in the heat with full gear and maybe a chainsaw for added weight, also to sweat out the alcohol, or (3) just leave them in the trucks OFF the firelines until they sobered up. Options (1) and (2) were totally opposite of what the namby-pamby articles on hangovers tell you. You know, (and this part must be said in a whiney voice while you read this) just sit in the shade or air conditioning, just r-e-l-a-x, drink plenty of fluids, take it e-a-s-y, don’t overdo it, that kind of Liberal drivel. NO way! The goal was to make it hurt, make it painful, and QUICKLY get the alcohol out of your system and get the WFF back to a clearer sense of reality. It USUALLY worked pretty well. And I will admit that I was in those situations myself a few times. It was hangovers that got me to quit drinking in excess.
It was even in our SOP, that for any and all drivers, we had a “No Fault, No Harm” policy, that stated even if you had one sip of alcohol prior to a fire assignment while off duty, just let your supervisor know and you were not allowed to drive until the next shift. “No Fault, No Harm” and it actually worked quite well.
RTS said “They HATED coming down to fight fires on the Tonto NF.”
And I say, Not true, any fire was a good fire, but some WERE better than others.
OK. I can’t even remotely compete with you guys. However.
I did once experience severe heat exhaustion in the Grand Canyon. It was not fun at all. Fortunately I always carried sodium-potassium tablets with me. So they, plus a lot of water, pulled me through back into the realm of the living. But, yeah.
My worstest ever hangover in “similar” conditions (since we’re all confessing/bragging, apparently) was at the Prescott College Black Mesa Archaeological Field School when I was about 20 years old. It had major long-term impacts on me.
We had a really powerful dust-devil roll through our camp that day that tore down our kitchen/dining-room tent-structure. So a maintenance crew from the college came up to fix the whole mess. Along with them they brought a supply of Black Jack Daniels.
And then we had a party around a campfire. At which party I drank a large chunk of a bottle of that Black Jack Daniels. Silly me. And then threw up and then staggered into my sleeping bag and passed out.
At 4:30 the next morning I was rudely awakened out of my stupor by the esteemed world-reknowned Southwest Archaeologist Dr. Robert C. Euler, who thundered out right into my eardrums, “Play Hard Work Hard!!!!!!!!!!”
I spent that day on our site running to the bushes while also Working Hard, in about 110 degree temperatures. Problem was, my parents were coming for a visit that afternoon. They heard all about it all and then hauled my rear end off to dinner at Kayenta, a dinner at which I tried my best to intelligently interact with them.
I decided after that experience that hangovers were the worstest experiences in the entire Universe. And lived my life after that avoiding them like the plague. And also avoiding anything that even remotely reminded me, taste-wise, like whiskey.
I’m writing this, what feels like eons later, while drinking hot orange juice and rum. Which is the only thing that puts me to sleep these days. Probably not a good thing.
But what the hey!!! I am who I am.
But I get what you’re saying, Gary. I wasn’t put on a wildfire that next morning. I can’t even imagine. It was bad enough as it was. Is this some kind of a testosterone thing or what?
I disagree. I told you months ago I am very familiar with some of the tales of how legendary the parties archaeological students have on digs were. Some of those fantastical stories made me wish I had majored in archaeological studies instead of boring ole Police Science.
Oh…and I just saw your last question. This is mostly “or what.”
I am just spinning a story to make it more interesting to our readers than simply stating the bare truth, but I can do that as well.
I believe based on the stories that I have heard that a very high percentage of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were still drunk when they went on the line on the Yarnell Hill Fire and furthermore, I believe their physical and mental condition due to their alcohol consumption was a major contributing factor in their deaths.
I believe the toxicology reports when and if they are ever released will support this theory.
So…I am baiting them. Whoever them are.
Gary,
The toxicology reports when they are ever released will support this theory
I am going to say this up front here because I think it needs to be said by someone, somewhere:
We, the public, have now learned about “Widespread cheating by instructors, cadets alleged at California’s fire training academy” for the reason that the investigative reporters at the SACRAMENTO BEE did an excellent job of being who they are supposed to be, and doing what they are supposed to do.
Viva SACRAMENTO BEE.
AGREED! I think they did a stellar job of true investigative reporting, similar to what JD does. This is a lost virtue in our society anymore.
I agree. They did a bang-up job.
I bet there was some push-back, too.
Too bad Arizona Republic is so completely spineless in comparison.
Reply to J. Stout post on December 1, 2015 at 11:56 am
>> J. Stout said…
>>
>> We, the public, have now learned about “Widespread cheating by
>> instructors, cadets alleged at California’s fire training academy” for
>> the reason that the investigative reporters at the SACRAMENTO BEE
>> did an excellent job of being who they are supposed to be, and doing
>> what they are supposed to do.
Yes… I echo your ‘Viva! SACRAMENTO BEE”…
…but let’s remember something else here.
There would have been no story at all unless SOME people who worked in that corrupt system hadn’t woken up one day and decided it was time for THEM to do what THEY were ‘supposed to do’ as well.
Tell the TRUTH.
Some of these people finally realized who pays their salaries and who they are ‘supposed’ to be working for… and that the FF business is NOT the fucking ‘Military’ or the ‘Mafia’ or the ‘Masons’.
It’s a JOB. A unique one… but a JOB nonetheless and subject to the same ‘rules of the road’ that we ALL have to deal with.
Corruption needs to be REPORTED… and FIXED.
SILENCE means CONSENT.
THAT’s what we need more of.
More of these people who are IN ‘the system’ to start telling the TRUTH ( as well as more good reporting like what the BEE just did ).
Regarding what I wrote downstream about the situation on the Twisp River Fire, in which, according to the report, the three Incident Commanders didn’t have access to/possession of any weather forecasts:
Robert the Second wrote on NOVEMBER 29, 2015 AT 10:33 AM
Marti,
Yes I agree with you, in part, that there was negligence on the part of the IC’s to send resources into the canyon knowing the predicted weather. It is still up to the WFF themselves to accept or not accept the assignment based on the WFF Rules.
What can we expect from ‘Managing wildfires in the WUI?
In my view, WFF, especially those that are Municipal/Structure/Wildland, are much more likely to take more risks in those WUI situations. It’s up to landowners to due their due diligence in Firewising their structures. Let the fire burn through the WUI, then go in and deal with the fire then. A structure is a tree with a door.
Bottom line, we are likely to experience more of these incidents until and unless we change our attitudes regarding structures.
—————————————————-
Problem is, according to the report, the Incident Commanders didn’t know “the predicted weather.” At least as I am reading the report. That is what I was calling attention to.
——————————————————–
“In my view, WFF, especially those that are Municipal/Structure/Wildland, are much more likely to take more risks in those WUI situations.”
I completely agree. I’ve been spending some time (arm-chair quarterback that I am) doing a lot of Googling regarding various combinations of stuff like “wildland firefighters structure wui” etc etc over the past week. And doing a lot of reading.
Because I think we here have been seeing some patterns. So I’ve been wondering if anybody else is seeing those patterns. At least as I can tell, via the Intertubes.
I’ve seen a number of things regarding how structural fire-fighters need to think differently and train differently in order to prepare for fighting wildland fires impacting the WUI (also called the I-Zone) and even urban neighborhoods that wildfires are burning into.
But, to be perfectly honest, I’ve seen very little regarding wildland crews and hotshot crews being trained differently or being trained to think differently. Other than some things, like what the GMHS did on the Thompson Ridge Fire and the Doce Fire. What I’m seeing is a bunch of fuzziness here.
It seems to me that Gary thinks they just shouldn’t even “go there.” But, in reality, that’s just not what is happening.
Gary, it seems to me, sees structures as just being just “fuel” in the way of a wildfire that the land management agencies (federal and state) prioritize protecting uber-acres of trees and such, structures be damned.
But, everything I am seeing/reading tells me that that is not the case, in reality at this time.
I am seeing WAY WAY WAY more emphasis (and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) being focused on protecting structures (and also civilian lives) in the Wildland Urban Interface than on acreages of trees. And the strategies and tactics are following that.
Gary may not agree that that should be the case, but IT IS. Despite what Arizona Department of Forestry is saying when they say the Homeowners’ Lawsuit should be dismissed.
I am totally agreeing with those who say that the costs (and sometimes responsibilities) of fighting wildfires on the WUI need to be “charged” to more local entities. What is going on right now is, imho, completely unbalanced.
Why should the USFS (which I detest in many ways regarding their gagging of their employees and their whitewashing of investigations) and their employees be held financially (and physically) responsible for fighting wildfires on the WUI when local jurisdictions just assume they should (which, apparently, was happening on the Twisp River Fire)? Amirite?
What I’m seeing is that the whole WUI thing, right now, is something of a mess. And a dangerous mess, for fire-fighters. What I’m seeing is that they’re kinda sorta holding a bit of a line, but it’s a fragile line, given what I think we are seeing. And a very dangerous one.
If, imho, Wildland Firefighters do what they seem to have been doing on the Valley Fire and the Twisp River Fire (and Yarnell and Esperanza), thinking the way they seem to have been thinking, they are doing neither Wildland Firefighting nor following the 10 and 18.
But the Wildland Urban Interface seems to be, in fact, challenging ALL the previously hard-won protocols. It seems to me that what “worked” and created all of those protocols on Wildland Fires is being radically challenged, in reality, in the Wildland Urban Interface. At least that is what I am seeing.
Namaste.
PS. I need to say, here, that I do believe the 10 and 18 are still applicable in the Wildland Urban Interface.
But, from what I am seeing, the problem is that they haven’t yet been successfully translated into that rather different (both physically and emotionally) environment.
And regarding CalFire, what a total freaking stupendous mess!!
“Widespread cheating by instructors, cadets alleged at California’s fire training academy”
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article46957695.html
Be sure to read it all and play all the videos. Jeebus.
Whether or not this played a role in what happened regarding that Helitack Crew on the Valley Fire, who TF knows???????
I want to think not. But…………..
I decided, when I moved from the forest outside of Flagstaff, to Albuquerque, in 1990, that, even though I would REALLY PREFER to live in the forest, that that wasn’t really a sustainable decision, all things considered. I saw it all coming.
Namaste.
Marti I was the first to say YES HOUSES are part of the fuel. If you can not protect them safely do to many factors including access defensible space and room to turn around Engines.
In IA the primary goal of Wild Land crews and Engines is to establish a Anchor point and start a line on the sides of the fire if that can be done behind structures great but once the fire is into structures a 300 or 500 Gal. Wild land Fire Engine is not going to stop the House from burning.
They are not structure fire engines. Thus the house just becomes part of the fuel bed.
The Hand Line or Cat Line with support of water is the best and most relied on way to go. You have escape routes and can assign lookouts
Driving into a housing area leaves you with few choices for retreat.
As I have said it is a death trap. Scouting ahead of a fire in timber is never recommended. As proven this year.
Shout watch outs # 8 & # 10 Safe Anchor point
Attempting a frontal assault. And always FIRE WEATHER
Unburned fuel between you and the fire that includes Structures!!!!!!!!
Exactly, Bob, and thank you.
And thanx to everybody who chimed in downstream. I’ve really appreciated being able to share my arm-chair-quarterbacking-civilian thoughts, questions, and ideas, and hear back from people who have experience in the field.
Did a bunch more hunting and reading today. Found some interesting things which I’ll put out here, in due time.
It looks to me like Stephen Pyne and the folks in Montana are taking some kind of lead challenging this new-found habit of throwing wildland firefighters at structures in the WUI.
“Burn, Baby, Burn—if We Say So”
JULY 4 2014 12:20 PM
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/07/box_and_burn_the_future_of_u_s_wildfire_policy.html
“U.S. wildfire policy is a muddled mashup, but it’s the best we’ve got.”
“In the season (and years) to come, we’ll see plenty of strong initial attacks on new fires. Around exurbs and cities, agencies will hurl everything at hand in an effort to squelch the flames before they can gain purchase. Elsewhere, responses will differ by agency, but the likely approach will be variations of point protection and “box and burn.” In the name of firefighter safety and cost containment—and of getting some useful fire back on the ground—crews will cede land.”
Forgot to say, that article above is by Stephen Pyne.
He’s being quite prolific right now.
Once upon a time, after I moved to central Albuquerque from the forests of Flagstaff, I embarked upon a NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month) project, narrating a bunch of my friends, who mostly hated each other, finding themselves in the midst of a wildfire in the East Mountains of the Sandias in New Mexico. And why and how they found themselves in the midst of that.
That fire hasn’t happened yet. But, all things considered, I think it will.
New Mexico has been spared from wildfire this year by El Nino. As it probably will be next year. I predict that in 2017 all hell will break loose here. That’s a huge part of why I am paying so much attention to where things may be going and how they may be going there.
I certainly agree they are not going to listen to me and the problem is going to get much, much, much worse before it gets really bad.
Actually, Gary, I found quite a few people thinking like you today.
Well, not EXACTLY like you (heh), but there’s a push-back growing.
But I’m still investing in popcorn.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 30, 2015 at 9:58 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Because I think we here have been seeing some patterns.
>> So I’ve been wondering if anybody else is seeing those patterns.
Oh… you damn betcha.
Just since ( and including ) Yarnell… we are looking at a whole lot of dead people ( and almost dead people… like the 4 morons at the Valley Fire ) where the absolute ‘common denominator’ is…
They should NOT have been WHERE they were, WHEN they were.
Whether it’s training issues, or experience issues, or ‘freelancing’ issues remains to be seen, but there is no doubt that ALL of these ‘incidents’ have ‘common ground’.
And I am including poor David (Dave) Ruhl’s death on July 30, 2015 at the Frog Fire, Mt. Shasta, CA… even though we ( the people PAYING for all of this ) haven’t heard jack shit yet from the infamous USFS stooge Mike Dudley, who is running THAT ‘CRAP’ investigation into David’s death.
Mike Dudley was named as CRAP lead back on August 4, just after THAT death…
Wildfire Today
Article: Cause of death and plans for final arrangements released
for firefighter killed in California
Published: August 4, 2015 by Bill Gabbert
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/04/cause-of-death-and-plans-for-final-arrangements-released-for-fallen-firefighter-in-california/
From the article…
—————————————————————
The David Ruhl fatality is currently being investigated by OSHA, the Office of Inspector General for the Department of Agriculture, the County Sheriff, and a Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) team. According to Safety Matters the CRP team is being led by Mike Dudley, who also served as secondary team leader for the Serious Accident Investigation Team for the Yarnell Hill Fire and the deaths of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in 2013.
—————————————————————
‘Shit happens’ is NOT a valid explanation for any ‘series’ of fatal industrial accidents in what are supposed to be ‘Safety minded’ workplaces.
There ARE ‘common causal factors’ here and any SANE ‘business’ would be hard at work identifying them and FIXING them.
LIVES ( continue ) to be fully ‘at stake’ here.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> What I’m seeing is that the whole WUI thing, right now, is something of a
>> mess. And a dangerous mess, for fire-fighters. What I’m seeing is that
>> they’re kinda sorta holding a bit of a line, but it’s a fragile line, given
>> what I think we are seeing. And a very dangerous one.
>>
>> If, imho, Wildland Firefighters do what they seem to have been doing on
>> the Valley Fire and the Twisp River Fire (and Yarnell and Esperanza),
>> thinking the way they seem to have been thinking, they are doing
>> neither Wildland Firefighting nor following the 10 and 18.
>>
>> But the Wildland Urban Interface seems to be, in fact, challenging ALL
>> the previously hard-won protocols. It seems to me that what “worked” and
>> created all of those protocols on Wildland Fires is being radically challenged,
>> in reality, in the Wildland Urban Interface. At least that is what I am seeing.
And that is WHY the pending appellate court decisions in the Arizona ‘wrongful death’ and ‘property damage’ suits are so, so important.
Arizona Forestry has MADE them ‘poster child court cases’ because of the ARGUMENTS they used to try and prevent ANYTHING from even ‘going to court’.
Whichever way these ‘appeals’ go… the results WILL have ‘nationwide repercussions’ for the entire WFF and Structural firefighting worlds AND for this whole dysfunctional ‘Unified Command’ thing.
These decisions will be the FIRST of their kind involving the new ‘hybrid firefighting’ bullshit and will be the FIRST time any State-level court in the land has had to ‘weigh in’ about what the fuck these firefighters are even LEGALLY responsible for doing when they show up for a fire.
I still think Arizona Forestry is about to ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater’ just because they have been so paranoid about making sure no witness ever even gets called to a witness stand regarding the Yarnell fiasco.
I think the ‘court decisions’ that will (eventually) emerge from the Arizona appellate court are going to have ‘unintended consequences’, regardless of which way the decisions swing.
Keep that popcorn close by.
“what the fuck these firefighters are even LEGALLY responsible for doing when they show up for a fire.”
Eggzactly.
In reality, what I’m/we’re seeing is that, when the WUI is involved, the vast acreages of trees are a secondary priority. Or third, even. And fire-fighter safety is getting lost in the complexity. It’s definitely about buildings, when it comes to strategy and tactics. And buildings are about politics.
In physical reality, yes, a building/house is just a tree with a door in it. But in social and political reality, that door has become vastly more important than the trees surrounding it. You have to be not looking in order to not see that.
I like a mix of blue and white popcorn. Tossed with tamari and seasonings (including, sometimes, a hint of red chile). I pop it in a big cast-iron wok. Oh, and a bit of parmesan is good on it, also.
Parmesan cheese on popcorn is delicious. Who would have ever thought that?
I would have.
Because I first worked at Kathy’s Cafe in Flagstaff, before then managing the Deli at New Frontiers. I had exquisitely developed taste-buds.
Ha ha!!!
And I look at those photos (and video) of Roy Hall and think, I probably, all things considered, HAD to have dropped arm-loads of plates of omelettes on tables including his. We were the most popular place in town when he was running the Flagstaff Hotshots.
Marti,
Yes you are right in your thinking, houses are a higher priority then a timber stand. However,neither is worth losing lives over. As stated by a number of people the homeowner needs to take responsibility for creating a defensible space around their investment,allowing FF’s room to work, or as RTS said let the fire blow through and then go in and due your work ( my favorite tactic).
Regardless of fuel type carrying the fire there is not a structure, timber stand or piece of dirt worth losing life over. It took me awhile in my career to come to this realization and share it with my crews.
I agree totally, and I see a pushback happening about this.
“Yes you are right in your thinking, houses are a higher priority then a timber stand.”
I understand Gary’s historical narrative that it used to be that timber stands were once the be-all and end-all of wildland fire-fighting prioritizing. But now that has changed.
But now I think there’s a push-back emerging against the pendulum swing that has landed in the realm of thinking that wildland fire-fighters should be throwing themselves whole-heartedly into the cosmic fight to save buildings.
On the other hand. Maybe saving trees isn’t, at this point, all that big of a deal. But watersheds and such? I’m thinking those should still be quite a big deal. Ecosystems matter. Even more than houses. And, thus we circle back.
Namaste.
“let the fire blow through and then go in and due your work ( my favorite tactic).”
I actually think that is what the helitack crew was doing on the Valley Fire. I think they were following the fire when they started out.
Then they got to the top of the ridge and started to go down it. I think that’s where they started walking into unburned fuel. And I think that’s where/how they got themselves into trouble.
But that’s just the picture that formed in my head while studying the report. I could easily be wrong.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on
December 1, 2015 at 9:41 am
>> Norb Szczurek
>>
>> Regardless of fuel type carrying the fire there is not a
>> structure, timber stand or piece of dirt worth losing life
>> over. It took me awhile in my career to come to this
>> realization and share it with my crews.
HOW long?… if you don’t mind me asking?
And what would you have described your ‘prime directive’ as PRIOR that realization?
“Risk a lot… save a lot?”
WTKTT,
Early in my career and at a much younger age the adrenaline rush probably offset the reality of the situation. As my career progressed, the adrenaline rush became less and the realization of the situation set in. Did I like seeing houses and acres go up in smoke? Not at all but nothing was worth loss of life. Sometimes the big dog is gonna eat and there is not a lot we can do about it but pull back and watch. That probably didn’t hit me until about 10 years into my career, when I occasionally had supervisory responsibility and had my butt kicked a number of times protecting an evacuated structure that was more than likely insured.
I never bought into the ” risk a lot to save a lot ” BS, just never set right with me. If I understand your question about my directive prior to that, during an interface fire it would have been to pick a structure that will survive on its own, one where you can hang safely as the fire blows past( those are few and far between). In the latter years of my career I either found a way to put fire on the ground around the subdivisions or let the fire blow through and go back in and pick up the pieces( as RTS stated).
And again,10 and 18, LCES and maintaining situational awareness at all times.
WTKTT,
Sorry for the delay in response – got lost in moderation. Early in my career I was young, invincible and full of adrenaline so I think it was a challenge to “slay the dragon”. That probably lasted about the first 10 years of my career. I began taking on a supervisory role, that along with getting my ass kicked on numerous structure protection assignments opened my eyes to how stupid that tactic really was, risking lives to protect an evacuated structure that most likely is insured.
I have never bought into the “risk a lot to save a lot” mantra. It has just never set well with me. If I understand your “prime directive” question correctly it would have been to choose a house that will stand on its own, follow the 10, 18 and LCES and maintain situational awareness. If you can’t do that then don’t engage.
Norb,
And like MOST of us, you learned to NEVER do those actions or tactics again, so a true Lessons Learned. In other words, just a few good Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes taught you a valuable lesson, to faithfully follow the WFF Rules, and NEVER do those stupid, dangerous things again.
Thank you, Norb, for your honesty and your important insights.
What makes it all totally relevant, I think, is that you seem to be saying that your decision to stop taking ‘risks’ was a personal one, and that you ‘arrived’ at that yourself… but there never seemed to be any real PRESSURE for you to ‘arrive’ at safe decision making.
I think that condition still exists ‘out there’.
Too many ‘Bad/Poor decisions with Good/Lucky outcomes’ and not enough supervision or even consequences for behaving that way.
It’s still getting people hurt/killed.
WTKTT,
I think the turning point for me was becoming a supervisor, I was no longer being told what and how to do things I was now making decisions that had significant potential to impact my crew. Everyone sees things a little differently, some have way more experience than others and those experiences shape decisions. The things that don’t change are the rules of engagement, the 10 and 18, and LCES, these rules need to be factored into every decision on the fire ground.
As far as consequences go, we usually don’t hear about those poor decisions with good outcomes unless someone gets hurt or worse. Even then we don’t always hear the facts on those poor decisions -” no one did anything wrong!” You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to identify the 10 and 18 and LCES violations made by the GMHS in their decision to move.
See. there is a common thread on all these fire fatalities like Charley Moseley mentioned.. Too many out there that were on these fires should be ADMITTING not OMITTING details …and I agree.
**
** TWISP – THE CAUSE OF THE FIRE ( CONTINUED )
**
** FIRE STARTED ON PROPERTY THAT HAS WORK CONTRACTS
** WITH WASHINGTON STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
>> On November 29, 2015 at 12:44 pm, Bob Powers said…
>>
>> OK Looking at the Picture above I see something black on the right
>> side of the pole just below the cross arm, but cant enlarge the picture
>> to see what it is. It looked like a transformer when I made my statement
>> above. It at first looked partially covered by the pole. Now I am not sure?????
I believe you are right.
That ‘something black’ on the right side of the pole appears to be just the ‘edge’ of a small (standard) transformer and the rest of the ‘cannister’ is being hidden by the pole.
Photo enhancement shows the standard ‘hookups’ for a small residential transformer coming off the ‘mains’ and attaching to that ‘black thing’ on the pole, including a standard ‘disconnect’ pull-switch.
Not sure what the actual ‘distribution voltage’ would be for that main line that runs along Twips River Road, but a 7200 volt distribution voltage would be typical. A modern home electrical service is 200 amps at 240 volts.
So SOMETHING must have been ( or still is ) on that pole doing the ‘step down’ for the triflex service drop that goes to that small house there.
That being said… some key points here…
Photo enhancement also shows that there does NOT ( repeat NOT ) appear to have been any kind of ‘fire’ or ‘burning’ at the top of that pole. Yes… the ‘canister’ appears ‘black’ ( or grey? )… but it is EVENLY colored and the coloration doesn’t appear to be the result of a ‘burn’. There is also no evidence of an ‘burn marks’ there on the pole itself where this ‘canister’ is mounted.
The ‘MarcyInvestigate_5006.jpg’ photo taken the day after the tragedy and showing the investigators assembled there at that ‘small house’ also seems to clearly show that the ‘triflex service drop’ from the pole to the small house either never got disconnected or has already been re-connected.
Again… here is a DIRECT LINK to that Marcy Stamper ‘power pole’ photo itself still sitting there on the ‘Methow Valley News’ Server…
http://methowvalleynews.com/wp-content/uploads/MarcyInvestigate_5006.jpg
If you look closely at that photo, the ‘service drop’ leaves the top of that pole and comes down to the house right there to the right of the ‘white chimney’ showing on the top of the house.
There is actually a standard Electric Company ‘bucket truck’ shown in the photo right along with the USFS investigators vehicles at that small house.
So maybe the ‘service drop’ to the house had already been restored on the day after the incident when this photo was taken… but I doubt it.
My better guess would be to say that this photo proves the ‘triflex service drop’ down to that small house never got ‘disconnected’ at all during the fire.
However… same photo SEEMS to show that the MAIN lines between that pole and at least the one to the EAST of it ( near the entrance to Woods Canyon Road ) are MISSING.
By MISSING I mean that at the time this photo was taken… they don’t appear to be either still ‘up in the air’ OR anywhere lying on the ground.
The photo at the top of the “Twisp Initial Summary Report” DOES show them ‘still in the air’ ( and still connected to that pole ) at whatever time THAT photo was taken WHILE the fire was still active… but by the time this other photo was taken of investigators at the small house site… those main wires don’t seem to be there anymore.
** THE STORY ON THE HOUSE / PROPERTY ITSELF WHERE
** THE TWISP / WOODS CANYON ROAD FIRE ORIGINATED.
As it turns out… that property that this POWER POLE is sitting on is NOT a piece of PRIVATE PROPERTY.
The POLE itself is owned / operated / maintained by the Okanogan County Electric Co-op ( OCEC ). It is part of THEIR electric grid.
But that property ( and the small house ) right there where the fire originated that this OCEC power pole sits on is OWNED by ANOTHER ‘Electric Company’.
The Douglas County Public Utility District ( PUD ).
Here is the ‘sales history’ for that piece of property where this Twisp fire originated as per online ( PUBLIC ) records sitting at the Okanogan County Tax Assessor’s office…
The small wood-frame house that is on that property was built in 1965.
Yes… that’s now 50 ( FIFTY ) years ago.
The property and the small house that is there was still owned by Vern Heath as of September, 2001. In October of 2001 Vern Heath sold the house and property to family members Carl and Di Ann Heath for $10,000. They remained the sole owners of the property for 4 years until April 20, 2004, when they granted another set of family members, Timothy and Vicki Heath, a 1/3 interest in the property for a price of $0 dollars.
There were no other sales or transactions for the next 7 years until January 10, 2011, when the entire house and property was sold to the ‘Douglas County Public Utilities District ( PUD ) for the sum of $159,500.
There have been no other sales or transactions since then and the Douglas County Public Utilities District is still listed as the current owner of the property as of this date. The property is also listed as ‘Tax Exempt’ in the Okanogan County Assessor’s database.
So that’s who OWNS this property where the Twisp fire originated on August 19, 2015.
The Douglas County Public Utilities District (PUD).
BUT THERE’S MORE!
The Douglas County Public Utility District bought that property where the Twisp fire originated because they ALSO own the lot that is directly across the street, to the south of where the Twisp fire started.
That is also no ordinary piece of property.
It happens to be a VERY important Salmon spawning and acclimation facility know as the ‘Twisp Weir’, which is OPERATED by ( drum roll, please )…
The Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife ( WDFW ).
It is also known as the ‘Twisp Hatchery’ and it’s one of the places where endangered species of Salmon are being ‘spawned’ and protected and there are contracts with the Yakama (Indian) Nation Fisheries Program and ( you guessed it ) the FEDERAL level United States Fish and Wildlife Service ( USFW ).
So the Twisp Fire didn’t just start on any ordinary piece of property.
It started on the northwest corner of a VERY important ‘facility’ that has ties to Douglas County ( land ownership ), Washington State ( operates the facility ) and the FEDERAL Government ( contracts performed there ).
Running out of room on this post so look for another with more LINKS.
Followup…
Lot of LINKS to come on this… but here is just one that proves it was no ‘secret’ even just days after the fire that the property where the Twisp fire originated is a tax-exempt piece of property owned by the Douglas County Public Utility District.
This ‘Douglas County PUD’ land ownership was mentioned in a local Methow Valley News article just a few days after the tragedy… but this article does NOT mention that the propety is actually part of the VERY important Salmon spawning/preservation facility directly across the road knows as the “Twisp Weir”.
See the LAST PARAGRAPH below…
The Methow Valley News
Article Title: Forest Service releases information about firefighter deaths
Published: August 26, 2015 at 7:01 pm
http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/26/forest-service-releases-information-about-firefighter-
deaths/
From the article…
———————————————–
Cause under investigation
The cause of the fire is also under investigation. Investigators have not reached conclusions about whether it was caused by lightning or was human caused, said Boehm.
Woods Canyon Road has several sharp turns as it climbs a steep hill on the north side of Twisp River Road. There were six residences on the road, plus other structures, and initial reports indicate that at least three homes near the top of the road were destroyed in the fire.
Forest Service investigators have been examining the area near Woods Canyon Road and around a small house just west of there owned by the Douglas County Public Utility District.
A spokesperson for the utility said the house is vacant.
———————————————–
So a ‘spokesperson for the utility’ ( Douglas County PUD ) admitted the house was ‘vacant’… but apparently neglected to inform the reporter that that house and property are actually part of the VERY important “Twisp Weir” facility right across the street from where this fire started.
Whoops… the actual HYPERLINK in the message above showed up ‘broken’.
Here’s the one that works…
The Methow Valley News
Article Title: Forest Service releases information about firefighter deaths
Published: August 26, 2015 at 7:01 pm
http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/26/forest-service-releases-information-about-firefighter-deaths/
Quick one here.
I know nothing about power poles/lines/transformers etc, so i’ve been deferring to those of you who do.
But one of the things I did think strange was looking at those two photos and thinking, “hmmmmm, shouldn’t there be lines coming off that pole and heading in the direction of the camera?”
Especially since the one connected to the house is clearly visible in both.
But then I don’t see lines going in the OTHER direction either.
Marti,
I am by no means an electrician nor do I claim to know much of anything about electricity, so you question prompted me to check further. And here’s one link that I liked:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
Go to the ‘TAPS’ and ‘AT THE HOUSE’ sections
Hope it helps satisfy your amazing mind
My amazing mind will check that out tomorrow!
Marti,
It’s tomorrow.
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
Go to the ‘TAPS’ and ‘AT THE HOUSE’ sections
To satisfy your amazing mind ya know
I may have found even a better one. It’s actually a CalFire document about Powerlines and Wildfires and Regulations and such.
But I’m falling asleep. So I’ll have to post it tomorrow.
Tomorrow.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 30, 2015 at 5:49 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> one of the things I did think strange was looking at those two photos
>> and thinking, “hmmmmm, shouldn’t there be lines coming off that
>> pole and heading in the direction of the camera?”
>>
>> Especially since the one connected to the house is clearly visible in both.
>>
>> But then I don’t see lines going in the OTHER direction either.
The only photo ( so far ) that CLEARLY shows the power lines still fully ‘up in the air’ where they should be and still fully attached to that POWER POLE right there at the Twisp fire origin is that photo at the very TOP of the recently released USFS ‘Twisp River Fire Status Report’.
But that is, from and ‘evidence’ perspective, the most important one.
The morons at USFS didn’t even bother to put a TIME on the photograph ( or even a caption that says that really IS a photo of the fire’s origin area )… but there is no doubt that photo they used at the top of their bullshit ‘Initial report’ was taken on the day of the fire itself.
By ?? who? They don’t even say.
There are FIRES still burning there in the brush behind the house and at the base of that tall tree on the left of the photo that is actually ‘hiding’ the power pole in question.
So that means that even sometime late in the afternoon, when this photo was taken, those power lines were still ‘up in the air’ stretching over that small house and were still ‘connected’ to the PPIQ ( Power Pole In Question ).
That also means it is highly unlikely that those lines had ‘broken’ and/or fallen to the ground and STARTED the Twisp River fire.
Example: if one those primary supply likes had broken on EITHER SIDE of that PPIQ, then we’d be seeing ‘slack’ in the photo at the top of the report.
We don’t ( see any slack ). On ANY of the primary lines ‘up there’.
So… why we might not be seeing the lines at all in the LATER photos ( the Marcy Stamper photos taken 3 days later on August 22 ) is anyone’s guess.
They may have DROPPED the lines on purpose as part of needing to fix the damage in that area. The pole itself does NOT look ‘burned’ but the Okanogan Country Electric Cooperative ( OCEC ) that owned that pole might have already decided to replace it anyway come August 22 when Marcy Stamper took her photo.
There is, in fact, an OCEC ‘Bucket Truck’ sitting right there in the driveway by that small house on August 22 when Marcy Stamper took that other photo.
There is also a high possibility that even in the Marcy Stamper photo, those ‘main lines’ *might* actually still be ‘connected’ and up there in the air… but because of the photo angle and the lighting… they are virtually impossible to see.
Example would be the other photograph of that small house ( and the space above it ) that is sitting on the Okanogan County Tax Assessor’s office.
This photo was taken in 2010, just before that house and the property where the Twisp River fire originated was purchased by the Douglas County Public Utilities District ( DCPUD ) for $159,500 dollars and added to their already-existing highly-important ‘Twisp Weir’ endangered Salmon spawning/acclimation facility directly across the street from where this Twisp Fire started.
The house was BLUE then ( in 2010 ).
The DCPUD painted it ‘Salmon Color’ ( of course ) after they purchased it and absorbed it into their existing ‘Twisp Weir’ Salmon facility right there across the street.
Here’s a direct link to that 2010 photo sitting on the Okanogan County Tax Assesor’s Server…
http://okanoganwa.taxsifter.com/Attachments/30000/299/62/29962_m.jpg
Notice in this 5 year old ( 2010 ) photo of the same house and property… you can see the ‘Power Pole In Question’ (PPIQ) but it ALSO looks like there are no ‘main lines’ in the air above the property.
They were THERE ( in 2010 ). You just can’t see them in the photo, for some reason.
That PPIQ is CLEARLY visible there just beyond the house, on that hillside, and even in this photo it does NOT appear that there were any trees close enough to that pole or the lines to have allowed a ‘limb strike’ on the lines to have been the cause of the Twisp Fire. The ‘Right of Way’ for that pole does, in fact, look standard and according to NEC standards ( which Public Utility companies use ).
So it’s still a mystery why we have this POWER POLE sitting at what for all the world looks like the ACTUAL origin of the Twisp fire… but the photographic evidence really isn’t showing any blatant ‘damage’ or ‘downed power lines’ or ‘burn marks on the pole’ that would readily indicate something happened.
But regardless of the fact that the USFS investigators were/are too incompetent to figure it out… SOMETHING happened to start that fire.
And it DID happen right there by that pole.
More to come on this ( and about this Government owned/operated ‘Twisp Weir’ Salmon facility on whose property the fire actually originated ).
Forgot to mention…
In that 2010 photo of the house/property where the Twisp Fire originated…
http://okanoganwa.taxsifter.com/Attachments/30000/299/62/29962_m.jpg
Look in the lower left corner of the photograph.
There is a DARK, THIN straight-line shadow on the ground there that looks for all the world like the SHADOW of one of the power lines as it passed over
that house and continued EAST to the next Junction pole over by the entrance to Woods Canyon Road.
So there we have even more ‘proof’ that those power mains really were ‘in the air’ there over that house and connected to that power pole just beyond the structure…
…but you still can’t really SEE THEM ‘in the air’ there in this particular photo.
So I guess it all depends on the resolution of the image, the time of day, the lighting, and the camera angle.
That might also be why we don’t *appear* to see them, either, in the Marcy Stamper photo taken on August 22, 2015, 3 days after the tragedy.
Whoops… my bad.
I was wrong above about the DATE of this photo sitting on the Okanogan County Tax Assessor’s site.
The YEAR the photo was taken was actually 2001, not 2010.
In the lower RIGHT corner of the photo is a TIME.DATE stamp on the photo itself and it says…
10 / 23 / 2001
October 23, 2001 ( not 2010 ).
That explains the ‘changes’ to the house. By the time the Douglas County Public Utility District bought it to add to their ‘Twisp Weir’ Salmon facility in 2010 ( and painted it its current ‘Salmon Pink’ color ) the house had undergone some changes.
That ‘front room’ was turned into a ‘porch’ and the back NE corner of the house had a small addition put on.
So that photo actually shows that same ‘Power Pole’ as far back as 14 years ago ( 2001 ), and what the trees looked like right there in that area that would become ( on August 19, 2015 ) the origin of the Twisp Fire.
And as usual, I like to tell the story with photos if I can. They say a picture is worth a thousand words.
And so here are three. The first two are of First Pulaski Big Willie when he was on his game. Big Willie was one of the finest First Pulaski’s who ever swung that tool on the Happy Jack Hotshots. Big Willie was also a back of the bus hell raiser who worked at a biker bar as a bouncer down in Tucson during the off season.
The last photo is one of Big Willie when he had been drinking unknown to me at the time and out of sync with the rest of the crew the night before a fire on the Tonto.
So…I ask all of you. Do you think it looks like a PROBLEM?
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
The entire crew were on their feet working, but Big Willie couldn’t keep standing, much less working because he was hung over.
And yes RTS, I realize his sleeves were up and we already had that argument last year and I admitted I was a little (and sometimes a lot) lax with some safety standards in keeping with the Bill Buck Way on the Mighty Coconino…my bad.
I love the ‘sleeves rolled up’ just a foot or two away from flames… but he STILL had the GLOVES on.
I guess if you’re gonna get singed… might as well be sure it’s just the forearms?
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 30, 2015 at 2:59 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> The entire crew were on their feet working, but Big Willie couldn’t
>> keep standing, much less working because he was hung over.
Perfect candidate for the ‘lookout’ job that day! ( uh… NOT ).
Yes…I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that is probably just about what our hapless hero looked like on June 30, 2013, which is why he was assigned to be the crew lookout when it should have been someone who didn’t have their head up their rectum.
There’s never been any full verification that ‘a cold’ is also the reason McDonough was ‘out’ for those two workdays preceding Yarnell.
Whether he really had one or not… going out on the Saturday night and ‘tanking up’ isn’t the best way to recover, anyway.
It was 104 degrees in Yarnell on Sunday.
McDonough was toast by around NOON… and that’s why he was chosen to be the ‘lookout’. There really is no doubt about that.
And speaking of what you said earlier about ex-alcoholics having dinner in a Brewery…
I’ve known some ex-alcoholics and they tend to fall into two different categories.
1. Those who really have stared down the dragon… and WON… and they have control of themselves. Not a problem going out with friends to a place where alcohol is served. Doesn’t bother them and nothing ‘bad’ happens.
2. Those who live in fear of being in any situation where alcohol is served because they just don’t trust themselves. They would NEVER chose to have dinner at “The Prescott Brewery” or any other place that even SERVES alcohol. Too tempting.
There’s actually a third category.
Ex-alcoholics who only SAY / BELIEVE they are ex-alcoholics.
They are still fooling themselves and thinking they can have a drink whenever they want to… and still qualify for the ‘ex’ part of ‘ex-alcoholic.
Well…the last one is the one I am going to put Marsh in. He and his wife could have gone anywhere to have dinner, they weren’t meeting friends there. They were there because Marsh was drinking alcohol.. Marsh sober for 10 years? Bullshit.
I’d still like to ( someday ) see ALL of those ‘toxicology’ reports… for ALL of those men who died in Yarnell.
They are KNOWN to exist.
David Turbyfill’s father had to FIGHT to see the ‘toxicilogy’ report for his own son which ended up proving that his son had GASOLINE products in his lungs and bloodstream when he expired…
…but he WON that fight… and Mr. Turbyfull proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that full ‘toxicology’ testing WAS done on ALL of those men.
WTKTT,
The autopsy and toxicology process took place on July 2, 2013, in Maricopa County because the Yavapai County Medical Examiners were obviously overwhelmed.
Yes, there were ‘gasoline products’ both in their brains and/or lungs in ALL of them. Some of these products, benzene for example, are also the result of natural phenomenon, like “forest fires” according to the relevant research.
Basically, the three most common combustion products found in WFF fatality toxicology reports are:
BENZENE
TOLUENE
XYLENE (PVC)
And no doubt, all the other crap they had close by them , off-gassed some of these toxins as well, including the adhesive in their fire shelters, based on former (MTDC) Missoula Technology Development Center reports and research.
NO SHIT … HYDROGEN CYANIDE, a component of the ADHESIVES used in the shelter, was found in SOME tests, however, the researchers were not clear on whether or not they were more closely associated with the nearby combustible toxins in the vehicles. This is covered in some detail in Appendix B – Characterizing Gases Generated in Vehicles and Fire Shelters.
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm97512817/
This is a link for a very comprehensive MTDC study researching all types of flammable products and protective products including WFF PPE and fire shelters. The title of the September 1997 report is: ‘Surviving Fire Entrapments Comparing Conditions Inside Vehicles and Fire Shelters.’
Richard Mangan – Program Leader, USDA Forest Service
Technology and Development Program; Missoula, Montana
7E62P87-Vehicle Entrapment; 9751-2817-MTDC
Vehicles were extensively studied and found to contain high levels of deadly compounds. No shit Sherlock!
So then, it seems pretty obvious to me that we need to make our fire shelters and other protective devices out of the video camera housing material, similar to the ‘black box’ material for aircraft recording devices. Then again, maybe that’s NOT such a good idea, because then WFF may rely on them instead of following the Basic WFF Rules.
As the saying goes: If you deploy a fire shelter, someone f**ked up!
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 30, 2015 at 2:57 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> The first two are of First Pulaski Big Willie when he was on his game.
>> Big Willie was one of the finest First Pulaski’s who ever swung that tool
>> on the Happy Jack Hotshots.
>>
>> http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
BOTH photos: Shirt unbuttoned, sleeves rolled all the way to the elbow.
RIGHT photo: In addition to sleeves rolled up just a foot or two away from the flames, he’s got the fusees just hanging in a hip pouch FACING the flames.
Gotta to love it! Well, OK maybe not, I was really, really wrong! I posted that photo as a reminder of how you should NEVER conduct yourself on the fire line.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 30, 2015 at 10:56 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Gotta to love it! Well, OK maybe not, I was really, really wrong!
>> I posted that photo as a reminder of how you should NEVER
>> conduct yourself on the fire line.
All kidding aside ( up above )… your original ‘point’ in posting the photos is still well taken.
Here is your WFF sober and ready to work.
Here is your WFF hung over and useless.
Any questions?
And this guy was a MOUNTAIN of a man.
Brendan McDonough would be like… what… about HALF his body weight?
Yes, you said it better than me. Any question?
Reply to Gary Olson post on
December 1, 2015 at 12:56 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Any question?
As long as we’re exploring the topic…
Did you know that GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch was arrested for DUI in 2010… which is normally a ‘firing’ offense according to even just Prescott City employment rules and regs…
…but Marsh refused to let him go.
In Kyle Dickman’s book, on page 54… he reports that Marsh’s only comment to Bunch about the DUI arrest was…
“It’s nice to see you’ve got a little life in you”.
Well…when I burn out like that I usually have a drip torch with varying amounts of diesel/gas mixture it in…vent open…slingin’ fire…facing the fire. Is that better?
I’ll concede the sleeves.
I just couldn’t help but look at that photo to the RIGHT… with all the fusees in the hip pouch already looking like they WANT to ‘fall out’…
…and imagining just one wrong ‘trip’ on a rock or limb sending him falling/stumbling to his RIGHT, towards the fire.
By the time he could probably even begin to get to his feet again… the fusees would have fallen out and would probably be ‘going off’ all over him.
Ah… that’s okay. He DID have his GLOVES on. No problemo.
Do you suppose that these allegations of widespread cheating in the CalFire (CDF) Fire Academy had anything at all to do with those WFF that got burned over on the Valley Fire? Those Valley Fire CDF Helitack WFF were definitely NOT the sharpest tools in the tool bag. They certainly were NOT paying attention during the WFF Rules and Lessons Learned sessions.
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article46957695.html
Article TITLE…
** WIDESPREAD CHEATIING BY INSTRUCTORS, CADETS ALLEGED
** AT CALIFORNIA’S FIRE TRAINING ACADEMY
Article Highlights…
– Instructors tossed out questions with high ‘miss’ rates
– Former cadets say they shared ‘intel’ with test answers
– Allegations raise questions about training received by HUNDREDS of firefighters
From the article…
——————————————————————
Browne, who writes test materials for academy cadets and records the scores, said that until earlier that year instructors routinely threw out results for questions that some cadets couldn’t answer. She said they repeatedly told her and other staff to add points to the scores of cadets to compensate. Browne estimated the changes probably affected scores on half the tests in recent years.
The orders, she told CHP Sgt. Daniel Webb and Lt. Ezery Beauchamp, made her uncomfortable because she believed they were wrong.
“Instead of saying, ‘Hey, we’re not teaching this correctly,’ and keeping (the questions) … they were just passing students,” Browne said during a 70-minute interview recorded by the investigators. “They were going to pass everyone … and I know that this is a safety issue. This is someone’s safety and life, and other people are depending on them. … They (the cadets) should not be passed if they don’t know the material. I mean, these are critical basic skills.”
———————————————————————
Unique to just California Firefighter Training?
Somehow I doubt it.
CalFire……….the founders & originators of the hybrid firefighter model……..
Please turn your attention to their snazzy website where you can learn critical information on such pertinent wildland fire topics such as:
“Christmas Tree and Holiday Decorations Fire Safety”
“Holiday Cooking Safety”
“Smoke Alarms Help Save Lives”
and……”Candle Fire Safety” because, you should know that “Candles are beautiful, popular, and aromatic; but they can also be very dangerous and a cause of home fires. Consider using flameless candles as part of your home or business decor. They look and smell just like the real thing!”
Woodsman
I’m beginning to think the entire Firefighting ‘business’ ( soup to nuts ) could be described as “looks and smells just like the real thing!”…
…when it’s really NOT ( the real thing ) anymore.
Just keep the butts in the seats and the dollars rolling.
Half the members of a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew who had only recently been ‘re-certified’ neglected to even throw their packs away from the site where they were choosing to deploy their shelters.
Some even laid down NEXT to their packs on the ground.
One of the fathers of one of those supposedly ‘trained’ firefighters insisted on seeing his son’s autopsy and toxicology report(s) and discovered that his son had GASOLINE PRODUCTS in his lungs and bloodstream when he died.
If there aren’t going to be any ‘checks and balances’ to make SURE people who are supposed to be ‘trained’ really are ‘trained’…
…then get rid of the whole ‘red-card’ thing altogether.
I don’t even want to think about how easy it is for the ‘good old boy/girl’ system to kick in these days and how easy it must be to get people who don’t even have the real training to sign off on YOUR ‘task books’ which now certify that YOU, yourself, now have ratings for which you aren’t qualified and now YOU TOO can perpetuate the mess and start signing OTHER ‘task books’.
It’s like the inmates taking over the asylum.
I’m going to indulge in a little twisted personal self-entertainment…well, because I’m a little off to be in this business anyway…
““WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS are beautiful, popular, and aromatic; but they can also be very dangerous and a cause of home fires. Consider using HYBRID WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS as part of your home or business decor. They look and smell just like the real thing!”
Woodsman
I have been in the shadows for awhile feeling like I didn’t have much to contribute to the current conversation. However I feel a need to re-engage on the subject of the “hybrid firefighter”, I guess because I was one for 30 years of my 38 year career. And if that’s not enough I am sure I have created/trained a large number of them in my organization.
Growning up as the son of a CDF Fire Crew Supervisor (34 years) wildland fire has always been my passion. After eight years as a wildland firefighter I accepted a job with a local govenment agency that at that time did not do wild land fire- even though that was/is the major risk to the community.
The organization recognized the risk and wanted to train the employees in wildland firefighting. We eventually adopted and complied with the NWCG standards with NO exceptions. You might be a chief with a gold badge but that did not qualify you for anything in the wildland fire arena-no exceptions. As an organization we agreed there would be no “fast tracking”(although I have seen this in the federal system in my career, just saying).
So my point, if you get in the game play by the rules. Follow the set standards of training and experience and take no short cuts to meet your agenda. The “hybrid firefighter” has responded
to numerous wild fires annually with a fairly good safety record so let’s not throw out a viable resource because they are not a pure WFF.
good to see Norb and RTS and J Stout—
howdy!
I really appreciate what you are saying here, Norb:
“The “hybrid firefighter” has responded to numerous wild fires annually with a fairly good safety record so let’s not throw out a viable resource because they are not a pure WFF.”
The sense I’ve been getting, as I’ve been looking around, is that the structural ffs are making the transition better than the wildland ffs are. The fatalities and burnovers seem to be mostly happening with wildland ffs putting themselves into places and circumstances they shouldn’t be going into and that they’re not really equipped for.
Because…………structures.
And I’ve seen more wildfire training videos for structural firefighters. And those training videos are all about “this is different and you have to THINK differently.”
I’m not seeing that so much for wildland firefighters. I’m just seeing what appears to me to be………confusion.
Marti,
You bring up some points I never thought about before. I know the federal agencies don’t perform interior structure fire attack and if I recall they would rather not due “structure” protection, but the system continues to assign them to structures in the interface. So what’s the answer? More and better training in the Interface? Being able to stand back, let the fire blow through and then come in and take action? I guess for me it’s more training of the mindset and not so much physical or on the ground tactics.
We need to hammer home the mindset that houses are insured( most of them) and are not worth risking /losing life over.
When I began my career the priorities that were hammered into me were life safety ( both FF and civilian) and property conservation/ resource value. The point that was also driven home was that sometimes to could not achieve both, but you always always cover the top priority.
Yep,
1. Life safety
2. Incident stabilization
3. Property conservation
Straight out of structural training Firefighter 1. Those are the priority checkdowns for trained structural firefighters.
Woodsman
“The sense I’ve been getting, as I’ve been looking around, is that the structural ffs are making the transition better than the wildland ffs are.”
Yep, they sure are…GMIHC for example, transitioned smooth as hell… (city fire department crew)
“The fatalities and burnovers seem to be mostly happening with wildland ffs putting themselves into places and circumstances they shouldn’t be going into and that they’re not really equipped for. ”
Yes and no. You have to look at the makeup of the particular wff. What is their culture and lineage?
“Because…………structures.”
I can tell you from my experience that when responding to and on-scene in initial attack, when structures come into play, the sense of urgency and demeanor of most responders changes. The anxiety level goes up, things start to get more hectic. It’s one of the phenomenon that I point out to my new guy. Some people just plain loose their shit. For a damn box of plywood and 2-by-4’s. I’m a cold hearted bastard but why don’t you help those that are trying to help you. How about saving your house before you have a fire by cleaning up around it. I’m not killing my guys by saving your precious home when you haven’t helped yourself – call your insurance company. We have a woodland community built on a mountain side…1400 homes mid-slope to the top…on an E and S aspect. What do you suppose we should do about a run up the mountain to your house? Clean your gutters for you? Move your 9 cords of fuelwood crammed under your attached deck for you? Shred your leaves and vacuum your 10 feet of yard in your little slice of heaven? Help us help you. Call your insurance company.
“And I’ve seen more wildfire training videos for structural firefighters. And those training videos are all about “this is different and you have to THINK differently.””
Yep. They’re making them as fast as they can churn em out. It IS different, at least they can see that.
Somehow, the responders that are ‘going there’ need to work together, understanding everyone’s strengths and weaknesses and what they are really capable of. Be true to who and what you are. You do your job and I’ll do mine. How about let’s each follow our respective rules of engagement and ALL go home afterwards? That would be great.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You are a cold hearted bastard and exactly on the point I was trying to make. No structure is worth losing life ( even if the homeowner did their fire safe work. And yes, play by the rules and we all go home safely,but by the rules with no shortcuts! I know we have both seen the fast track/ short cutting across the board and we continue to live ( or die) with it.
And just for clarification those priorities were from a wildland agency way back when, and again the take home there was life safety is always paramount.
Woodsman and Norb,
Spot on Gentlemen, spot on!
WFF safety FIRST, then citizens, then MAYBE structures IF they have done something worthwhile to FireWise it, otherwise – LET IT BURN THROUGH AND COME BACK AFTER THE FIRE RUN AND PICK UP THE PIECES.
A STRUCTURE IS FUEL, JUST A TREE WITH A DOOR, LET IT BURN if none of the above mitigation
Totally agree with RTS.
Well said, gentleman.
Well said.
I would MUCH prefer it if YOU gentleman would get yourselves booking agents and go around ‘speaking’ to ‘the brotherhood’ like Brendan McDonough is still getting PAID to do.
It’s still a total mystery what ‘Donut’ is actually SAYING to ‘the brothers’ at these ongoing speaking engagements.
What HE was TAUGHT?
“Risk a lot… Save a lot”?
Norb,
We are in agreement on the whole fallacy of ‘risk a lot to save a lot’ BS. Thanks!
“And just for clarification those priorities were from a wildland agency way back when, and again the take home there was life safety is always paramount.”
This wildland agency you speak of wouldn’t happen to be CalFire, would it? The lines have been blurred for a long time, sir.
For illustrative purposes, I pulled the 4th edition of ‘Essentials of Fire Fighting’ off my shelf. It’s the official publication by IFSTA for basic structural fire training in NA and I quote from it: “IFSTA manuals are now the official teaching texts of most of the states and provinces of North America.”
Of the 693 pages, exactly 5 (FIVE!!!) pages are devoted to wildland fire!!!! 5 pages. So we can both see that taking a few S-classes, a pack test, and throwing on a set of greens and yellows doesn’t make one a wildland ff.
Chapter 1 Firefighter Orientation and Safety. Introduction [NFPA 1001: 3-1.1.1] The first words of the entire training text are as follows:
“Fire fighting is one of the world’s most honored but hazardous occupations. It is the duty of every fire department to practice life safety, incident stabilization, and property conservation.”
It was so ingrained in me that I still had it memorized from my years as a structural volunteer. I didn’t have to look it up.
My claim is that the wildland agency you got it from, in turn, pulled it straight from the official training doctrine of the structural world.
Woodsman
You said:
“understanding everyone’s strengths and weaknesses and what they are really capable of. Be true to who and what you are. You do your job and I’ll do mine. How about let’s each follow our respective rules of engagement and ALL go home afterwards?”
I’m agreeing and I think Stephen Pyne is agreeing, also.
Let the more local structural firefighters (although trained in wildfire, in order to understand how wildfires generally burn) do the point protection, and free the wildland firefighters to manage the overall wildfire (without getting personally attached to protecting structures).
What seems to have happened on the Valley Fire and the Twisp River Fire is really telling, imho.
Reply to Woodsman post on
November 30, 2015 at 6:04 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I’m going to indulge in a little twisted personal
>> self-entertainment…well, because I’m a little
>> off to be in this business anyway…
——————————————————–
““WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS are beautiful, popular, and aromatic; but they can also be very dangerous and a cause of home fires. Consider using HYBRID WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS as part of your home or business decor. They look and smell just like the real thing!”
Woodsman
———————————————————
Well… to use a soccer term…
SCOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!
Woodsman,
I understand now where you are going with that. And yes that organization was actually California Division of Forestry in 1976, the Nevada Division of Forestry in 1981. In those days there was no mention of Incident stabilization (at least not that I recall) but again my main point is life safety. And absolutely the “hybrid firefighter” needs more than five pages of wildland training, a few S courses and some greens. I can only speak for my (former) organization and we required far more than that to participate in “off-site” fire response. In reality a number of our employees would rather not go off site, not want to get the required training and would rather stay home and backfill the station. This allowed the employees that met the NWCG qualifications and experience to fill those requests.
Again, if you are going to enter the wildfire arena you had best play by the rules established over time by the wildland agencies. The 10 and 18, LCES – all there for a reason for all firefighters regardless of red, green,yellow,or white vehicles.
LUNCH BREAKS
RTS Covered it well but I want to add something here.
In the late 80’s all of a sudden the Type 1 teams decided that there had to be a 30 Min. lunch break on shift. It use to be Strait time until the Fire was declared controlled and then a Mandatory 30 Min. Lunch break.
I had severial arguments with my Forest FMO who was a IC. My conclusion and always has been you are not off duty at any time on a uncontrolled fire.
I was very adamant for one very good reason—–The Rattle Snake Fire Caught the crew on a lunch break in a brush field unable to see the main fire. An uncontrolled Fire is not a place where you are ever off duty on the Line. Up until the 1980’s no one was off duty for lunch on the Fire line.
How soon the Federal Government forgets that crews have died during a lunch break—Paid or not they were killed. There is always a danger while the fire is uncontrolled.
Back to my argument I did not win but my Boss said he would keep it in mind.
It was a Federal policy and hard to get around. IC can Sign Time slips with a Note that the Lunch break was paid due to critical Fire behavior in the area the Crew was Working………….
Bob,
So now we can add the Rattlesnake Fire (1953) to the list of other “LUNCH SPOT” fires where WFF died. The others that I know of are the South Canyon Fire (1994) with 14 fatalities, the 30-Mile Fire (2001) with 4 fatalities, and most recently, the YH Fire (2013) with 19 fatalities.
It’s as if TIME STOOD STILL for them as they took refuge in their perfectly good safe areas and/or Safety Zones, and then they left and traveled into horrendous danger. It’s as if they ignored all the influences, causal factors, indicators, and Watch Out Situations occurring around them . WTF !?
And recall too, that the South Canyon, 30-Mile, and YH Fires were the very same fires that the WFF’s relied on their ‘most familiar habits’ during times of stress. Once again, WTF !?
Yes very true. 24 had lunch at the Spot Fire. 9 made it out and 15 Died– Rattle Snake Canyon 1953.– Yes they were on their Lunch break when the Fire made a run at them.
Along with all the Fires you mentioned.
How many others had to jump and move because of Falling Trees and Rolling rocks.
RTS – So…I am now confused, which is not all that of uncommon of an occurrence. But in this case, I am hoping you can help me out.
What is the bottom line on the time issue? Is what the GMIHC did, or was done on their behalf, no big deal and SOP? Are waste, fraud and abuse in recording hours worked on fires now common practice or an aberration?
And more importantly, is what many of the GMIHC were DOING with those overtime hours when they thought they were NOT going to be going to a kick ass fire early the next morning important or not?
Was it business as usual for our alcoholic (and many of my friends and coworkers were alcoholics, especially after I went into law enforcement) hapless hero to be on overtime hours and drinking on Whiskey Row with some of his hotshot buddies until 0200 hours and then on their way at 0600 hours to a wildfire that was going to hell in a hand basket a problem…or not?
And how about Marsh and Steed, is what they may, or may not have been doing with those hours important? I understand (although it may not be true) that Marsh was an alcoholic. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic (even if sober for 10 years), since I will always be a carbaholic…I know a little bit about that subject.
And as a carbaholic, when I am on one of my frequent and unsuccessful diets, I don’t go into the Cheesecake Factory for dinner with my wife. Should I read anything into the fact that Marsh was eating dinner with his wife in a brewery?
If the crew was on their way to a fire in Yarnell at 0600, how much time elapsed between when those who were drinking alcohol and when they were on the clock driving government vehicles (they had 3 to drive, unlike in my day when there was one).
And then before they were on the fire line in the extreme HEAT in bright sunlight except for when the pyroclastic cloud was blocking out the sun.
I know their overtime hours (worked on not) was not a factor in their deaths, but I am not sure about their drinking during those hours?
Oh…and one more thing as long as I am in the business of over sharing. I know a little bit about depression as well, although not enough. I worked closely with two special agents over the years (partners on multiple cases for long periods of time) who committed suicide and I didn’t see it coming.
I also worked in an office where another agent committed suicide (all of these were from other agencies) and two more happened by agents in offices of other agencies I worked with on a frequent basis.
The human mind can be a frail thing and human factors are a complicated business…and way out of my pay grade. I know enough to know we need some experts looking at what happened in the area of human factors on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Update on Sonny. I went to bed at 4:13am…6:07am awoken…then Ronda from gas station comes quickly over saying Tex is being air vac …full blown severe heart attack…I thought… OK get his dog to warm cabin vs sitting in his car all day in cold Prescott. He went into surgery asap as I patiently waited each hour to pass and the nurse came than the doctor..the doctor said he has to do more surgery but has to stabilize him…his nurse in ICU had staff of nurses come in and the doctor…very hairy for a moment… Quite the busy room…its been a hard day was Sonny’s first words. Blood again…and I ask how do you feel Sonny? Like shit he says…
Well…maybe Sonny should listen to the medical personnel? Just sayin’. Please tell him I have suggested that as something he might want to consider.
I told my husband…asked…told…I really do not know HOW it unfolded but I will be around Sonny once again 24/7 with his family visiting to relieve me time to time or the VA will provide me (the volunteered free caregiver) relief so I can do my medical massages and household stuff and my six shooter gun shooting desert walking times too…the investigative nature of me examined the situation and I think he has to be further in depth taught on certain meds for his chest pain…they are not sweettarts—soft giggles. In looking at it I can see the honest mistake in it…I really do not have any understanding on the topic “alcoholic”…My dad just loved beer and the way it made him feel…shit, with all his cancers and one lung and etc…and the botched job they did—the bs…I felt if that is his choice as part to his lifestyle—who am I—it’s HIS life even though it does change the dynamics to the folks around him but he was a very philosophical happy Staten Island type of drinker—I mean if it was not for him the twin towers would of never been built—oh sorry—their gone as well as family/friends in that…ok, so to hear the UNION stories of the people who built the towers they all drank before…ON the job and after…it was never a concern like you see nowadays with all the laws and regulations to conform the world to be THIS way or you are DIFFERENT…I like individualism and independent people…Also you can hear people like Shaun McKinnon label in AZ REPUBLIC “Sonny the bourbon hound” and shit I have spent the most IN PERSON time with him and he is freaking Irish and Cherokee—and also a miner/logger/cowboy from the ol’ days—I can say he don’t often but when he does—I never knew a person like that is all and I could never comprehend but some say or label it—BINGE—I again do not understand or really comprehend to agree because WHY is it a person enjoys a beverage choice and be labelled…shit people suck down energy drinks and gatorade and freaking juices—that shit aint good for you—caffeine—the list goes on—to some; WATER IS JUST BORING…I really think the whole ALCOHOL topic and the mental health part of how one can handle it—I think its the freaking control and judgements and views on the topic that is more of a mess than the person who actually takes the choice of beverage—
I don’t know—maybe I need to be AMERICANIZED or CITIFIED more…maybe too long out with the Prickley Pear Fruits as my choice of intake…a topic I wish I could comprehend or maybe not…My uncle Ben was the BIGGEST drinker ever—even had to have kidney transplant and my uncle Bob gave him one—he ended up dying—kidney did not take—the world is quite strange
So…finally fell asleep 2:13am and was up at 4:17am..walked Tex dog…water n fed…thought about this topic ALCOHOL… In my humble opinion I think there is too ma y chiefs in command and also the ones in command don’t belong there. Like the SAIR…instead of MISSION ACCOMPLISHED… they had the behavior COMMISSION ACCOMPLISHED…then we have more people want to spread a message versus going direct…darn cell…acting weird…IG I post this and it comes out odd…its format I’m in..ugh…Sonny is doing shift change so been waiting couple hours in waiting room..the part I wanted to add to last night message on alcohol… Whatever the intake that brings one their own personal journey…I think what lacks in this world is obedience to self, others and Above and too much perceptions and judgements most…this darn cell..I can’t even see what I’m typing to review…anyways I was interrupted in waiting room so lost my thought…I think
Correction…
Not COMMISSION ACCOMPLISHED..
I wrote OMISSION ACCOMPLISHED
Gary,
You posted: “What is the bottom line on the time issue? Is what the GMIHC did, or was done on their behalf, no big deal and SOP? Are waste, fraud and abuse in recording hours worked on fires now common practice or an aberration?
And more importantly, is what many of the GMIHC were DOING with those overtime hours when they thought they were NOT going to be going to a kick ass fire early the next morning important or not?”
Based on my experience, my view is YES, “what the GMIHC did, or was done on their behalf, was no big deal” and fairly common. I would NOT call it SOP because that has connotations of being ‘official.’. And YES, based on my experience, it is my view that “waste, fraud and abuse in recording hours worked on fires now common practice” and has been for quite awhile now.
The NWCG IIBH ‘system’ of NOT properly applying the Meal Period standard pursuant to 29 CFR 785.19a basically encourages WFF to falsify their times, when they are told to ‘SHOW’ a Meal Period. Almost all WFF will falsify their times rather than go through the hassle to challenge it.
How does the truism go? What we acquiesce in and are silent about, we approve and condone. It starts at the top, at NWCG. For many years now (20+), when NWCG requests comments for the IIBH every few years, several of us have submitted the true and accurate verbiage from the legal text, from the Hours Worked and Meal Period citations pursuant to 29 CFR 785.91a (and others). They do NOT change it and maintain the status quo. And so I hold ‘them’ partially responsible for the time fraud that has become so common in wildland fire.
I hope that answers your questions.
If anyone is really interested and if anyone really really cares, here is a fairly comprehensive, legal STATE case that goes into a lot of detail on the whole 29 CFR 785.19a Meal Periods issue, with the main focus being on the shift from the “completely relieved from duty” standard (cited about 10 times) to the “predominant benefits” standard (cited about 20 times). Even though it’s a STATE case, the legal principals still apply.
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA – SANDRA J. BABCOCK – Individually and on behalf of all those
similarly situated, et al.,Plaintiffs, v. BUTLER COUNTY, et al, Defendants.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-pawd-2_12-cv-00394/pdf/USCOURTS-pawd-2_12-cv-00394-2.pdf
Well in my opinion we should focus on what many of the GMIHC were doing during those overtime hours and in the subsequent hours between 2230 and 0600 the following morning when they were on their way to a real “Western” wildfire when they thought they were going to be sleeping in and taking it easy on June 30, 2013, because they believed they were out of rotation until a Terminal Fuck Up gamed the system, did an end run around SWCC and went to a lot of time and trouble to make sure his crew, who was in no shape to go to any fire, much less a really bad one, went to their deaths.
It should be noted that according to Kyle Dickman ( who had Brendan McDonough and Brandon Bunch sources for everything he was writing )… when McDonough and MacKenzie and Zuppiger ( and others? ) were at Moctezuma’s Bar ( owned by former hotshot Brandon Bunch’s father ) on Saturday evening ( when the timesheet says they were still earning overtime working the Mount Josh fire )…
…they ALREADY KNEW they would have to report to the GM Station 7 by 5:00 AM at the latest for their ‘next assignment’ on Sunday.
Dickman says that was actually the subject of some of the bar conversation that night WHILE they were slinging the beers instead of earing the claimed overtime on the ‘Mount Josh’ fire.
Dickman said McDonough ASKED them what the assignment might be for Sunday. Dickman says MacKenzie said he wasn’t sure but that it was probably another lightning strike like they’d been dealing with both Friday ( West Spruce fire ) and that day ( Mount Josh ).
And yes… normal closing time for Moctezuma’s bar on Whiskey Row on a Saturday night was 2:00 AM.
So it’s possible the ‘bar boys’ only got about 3 hours sleep, max.
John Percin suffered HEAT STROKE on the ‘Mount Josh’ fire on Saturday. He doesn’t appear to have been at the same bar but he was there at 5:00 AM Sunday morning ready to head for Yarnell ( where he was going to die ).
Yes, and I would say that “max” number should be counted in minutes and not hours for the bar crew. I do remember they were talking about the fire and I count them as Terminal Fuck Ups.
I am trying to distinguish between those crew members who originally thought they were going to have a light day the next day while they were doing things they shouldn’t be doing like drinking alcohol…Jesse Steed for example.
Once any of them found out they were going to be reporting at 0500 hours the following morning to go to a wildfire, they should have gone into a professional mode and not kept doing anything that could have potentially affected their performance on the fire line and I assume there were many of those crew members.
For any crew member who kept drinking like they were going to off the next day after they knew they were going to a fire at 0500 hours, well…those are the same kind of people who should fall into Darwin’s theory of survival of the fittest.
Our society as a whole would be better off if people that stupid did not reproduce.
Reply to Gary Olson at 11/30/15 at 1:19 p.m.
What you are talking about here adds to my skepticism about something that GM was ‘supposed’ to have been known for, something about “Be Better” (did I get that right?).
So, what was that REALLY all about? Because it seems to me, all things considered, with all that we now know about GM and how they operated, there wasn’t much in the way of consistency involved with it.
Anymore I am inclined to think maybe “Be Better” was used most often as more-or-less a kind of drum that GM’s overhead would beat on as a mechanism for a collective rationalizing of any bad decisions about to be made in their pursuit of a good outcome. A sort of convenient and reliable way of always having a very good reason for ditching almost anything in the way of safety protocols, or even common sense. At this point I am skeptical enough of what it was REALLY used for that I think it may have played a certain role in the Drift into Failure that RTS speaks about.
Gary,
Here’s some more to ponder on your line of thought:
Theory of Consequentialism – he consequences of one’s conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence. In an extreme form, the idea of consequentialism is commonly encapsulated in the English saying, “THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS” meaning that if a goal is morally important enough, any method of achieving it is acceptable.” I have found this more attributed to the Jesuits, the military arm of the Papacy, than any other group or institution.
Rule Consequentialism – holds that moral behavior involves following certain rules. However, rule consequentialism chooses rules based on the consequences that the selection of those rules have.
Motive Consequentialism – This version gives relevance to the motive of an act and links it to its consequences. An act can therefore not be wrong if the decision to act was based on a right motive. A possible inference is, that one can not be blamed for mistaken judgements if the motivation was to do good.”
All of us, as WF supervisors, rationalize the things we do, some of the time, others most of the time, some none of the time. I allege that Marsh most definitely rationalized what he did on the firelines so that he could get his way MOST of the time.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
Followup…
Here is that first online article Kyle Dickman published and what he said about the ‘bar boys’ on Saturday night…
Outside Online
Article: 19: The True Story of the Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: September 17, 2013
By Kyle Dickman ( former Type 1 IHC Hotshot )
http://www.outsideonline.com/1926426/19-true-story-yarnell-hill-fire
From that article…
————————————————-
cross town, three other Granite Mountain hotshots—Christopher MacKenzie, Garret Zuppiger, and Brendan “Donut” McDonough—arrived at the Whiskey Row Pub, a dive in Prescott’s historic downtown. When the hotshots came to drink in groups, as they often did on rare days off, bartender Jeff Bunch gave them a discount. His son was a former crew member.
The trio sat by the pool tables in the back of the bar. Donut hadn’t seen Garret, a red-bearded 27-year-old, or Chris, his roommate and a nine-year veteran of firefighting, in a couple of days. Strange as it was, Donut (his nickname was easier to say than his last name) had missed his hotshot brothers. He’d come down with a cold on Thursday night and taken Friday and Saturday off.
“Donut, what the fuck are you wearing?” Garret asked. He had on a pink tank top: an easy target. The hazing went around the table, moving from Donut’s style to Chris’s poorly trained dog, Abbey, to Garret’s obsession with vinyl records, before the conversation eventually landed, as it always did, on the job.
“Any idea what the assignment is?” asked Donut. “All I heard was we got work.” He was feeling better and eager to get back on the fire line. Tomorrow was Sunday, an overtime day—nearly $20 an hour.
“More staging, I think,” said Chris. “We’ve been busting little lightning fires since you left.”
————————————————-
** KYLE DICKMAN REPEATS THE SAME STORY
** LATER ON IN HIS BOOK… ‘ON THE BURNING EDGE’
THIS time… Dickman says the bar was actually Moctezuma’s
on Whiskey Row, the one owned by former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch’s father.
On page 183 of Dickman’s book…
————————————————-
Whiskey Row ran along one side of the square. Inside Moctezuma’s, of of six bars lining the street, Brandon Bunch’s dad poured drinks for Donut , Chris and Zup.
They’d stopped in for a beer and claimed seats in the back of the bar by the pool table and TVs playing Wimbledon and baseball highlights.
“Why the fuck would you wear that?” Zup said to Donut.
He was talking about his friend’s pink tank top, which looked straight out of Southern California. “Respect yourself”.
“What are you doing out of your cage?” Donut came back. It was good to be back out with the guys. “Shouldn’t you be home listening to vinyl records with your girlfriend?”
Donut had come down with a nasty cold the morning before and hadn’t worked the past two days. The father of a close friend of his had passed away, and Donut had spent that morning at the funeral before hanging out in front of the TV with Chris’s poorly behaved dog, Abbey, a cattle dog with a big personality that Chris refused to discipline. The apartment felt empty without Chris; they’d been inseparable since he got back from California, and without his friend around, Donut felt restless and lonely. TV and video games coud do only so much to fill the void. Heading out with the guys felt good.
“So what’s the plan for tomorrow?” Donut asked. “Anybody know?”
“Another lightning fire, probably,” Chris said.
—————————————————
Gary,
You posted “Well in my opinion we should focus on what many of the GMIHC were doing during those overtime hours and in the subsequent hours between 2230 and 0600 the following morning when they were on their way to a real “Western” wildfire …”
Agreed. Having been a Hot Shot Superintendent, I think it’s pretty safe to say that we pretty much know what they were doing. They were at their Home Base (Prescott) for the two days prior to June 30, 2013 – after their assignment on the nearby Doce Fire.
I allege, that after working around their HS Base for the two days prior to the YH Fire, they were reveling in the local citizenry accolades, lauding them as HEROES for saving structures there. And what do a lot, not all, but a lot of WFF’s do after fire assignments? They drink..
They weren’t, ‘tired and worn out,’ as Tex and Joy had commented that morning, I allege that about half of them were hung over that day.
Amen. Please see my new post on top complete with photos of a hotshot when he on his game and one of him after he had been drinking the night before.
Gary,
Yes indeed, he definitely looked like he was feeling like shit. Or as ‘they’ say – “death warmed over.” And it looks like the fire was on the dreadful and often unforgiving Tonto NF as well. OMG! NOT a good place to be fighting fire sporting a hangover, especially with the likes of him in the photo.
RTS You wrote:
“I think it’s pretty safe to say that we pretty much know what they were doing. They were at their Home Base (Prescott) for the two days prior to June 30, 2013 – after their assignment on the nearby Doce Fire.”
That’s not accurate, unless I’m misunderstanding you.
Their two days “at Home Base” after Doce were Wednesday and Thursday. Friday they were on the Spruce Fire from late afternoon into the evening and Saturday they were, all day, on that other fire (writing off the top of my head, I can’t remember the name).
But this:
“they were reveling in the local citizenry accolades, lauding them as HEROES for saving structures there” is probably completely spot on.
But I think they were also relatively fried, from the sounds of it. But, then again, maybe they weren’t.
From your experience, is it typical for a hotshot crew to work into the night on a Friday, wake up the next day and work another day on a fire, and then, knowing they were going to be on another fire the next day, stay out drinking until the bar closes?
Just asking for a friend.
Marti,
Happy December!
Thanks for setting me straight on the days after the Doce Fire and pre-YH Fire. I too was writing off the top of my head.
And to your question about HS’s drinking after fires and staying out late drinking knowing they were going to another fire. I would say it does occur, and not just HS’s but all WFF’s, however, I don’t know how common it is.
Fascinating court case, RTS… and absolutely DIRECTLY relevant.
Thanks for posting that link.
You could pretty much just ‘search and replace’ the words ‘prison facility’ with ‘current fire assignment’ and the word ‘premises’ with ‘current fireline assignment’ and you’d be looking at a WFF situation.
Matter of fact… ‘a fire’ is actually MENTIONED in this document as one of the circumstances that can alter the interpretation of the Federal laws.
In one of the cited ‘appeals’… it says this…
On PDF page 11 ( of 16 pages )…
—————————————————————-
In support of their argument that the restrictions placed upon them was predominantly for the benefit of the Defendants ( the employers ), Plaintiffs ( the employees ) quote from Reich, a decision rendered in the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. Doc. No. 65, p. 7, quoting Reich
In reviewing the Reich case in its entirety, this Court notes that the Court of Appeals concluded as follows:
The central issue in mealtime cases is whether employees are required to “work” as that term is understood under the FLSA. See Henson v. Pulaski County Sheriff Dept Although the FLSA itself does not define “work,” the Supreme Court has attempted to do so. In Tennessee Coal, the Court held that “work” under the FLSA means “physical or mental exertion (whether burdensome or not) controlled or required by the employer and pursued necessarily and primarily for the benefit of the employer and his business.”
At about the same time, the Court counseled that the determination of what constitutes work is necessarily fact bound.
See, Armour & Co. v. Wantock (which etermined) “Whether time is spent predominantly for the employer’s benefit or for the employees is a question dependent upon all the circumstances of the case.”.
For example, time spent waiting for an event to occur, such as a FIRE, may constitute work if an employer hired an employee for that function.
—————————————————————-
“If an employer hired an employee for that function”
WFF are most certainly “hired for that function” ( to fight the fire ), and if any ‘event’ happens while ‘having lunch’ and those WFF did not respond to orders from fire command to deal with it right away… the shit would hit the fan.
The case was obviously talking about if some kind of ‘riot’ breaks out at the prison… that that is why these ‘officers’ are not allowed to ‘leave the premises’ during lunch… but the analogy to WFF is the same. A fire can ‘flare up’ at any moment and they would need to deal with it.
So that’s why this case is DIRECTLY relevant to the WFF ‘lunch break’ situation. WFF are definitely ‘on call’ a ALL times when working a fire… and they are not ‘off call’ until they are at home with their phones off the hook.
WTKTT,
Thank you. Glad you benefited from it
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on November 30, 2015 at 10:21 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> How does the truism go?
>> What we acquiesce in and are silent about, we approve and condone.
>> It starts at the top, at NWCG.
“Qui tacet consentire videtur”
Silence means consent.
WTKTT,
Yes it does. And there is plenty of that in the Government Agencies regarding the contentious Meal Period issue pursuant to 29 CFR 785.19a.
And the GMHS likely had some of that when their leadership broached the bad decision to leave their perfectly good Safety Zone.
WTF !? I still have trouble with this.
**
** TWISP – MORE ON THE CAUSE OF THE FIRE
**
** MORE PHOTOS OF THE POWER POLE AT THE FIRE’S ORIGIN
At the very top of that recently released U.S. Forestry CRAP team’s ‘Twisp Initial Summary Report’ is a photograph of the scene of the Twisp fire’s origin.
At the top of the photo you can clearly see the POWER LINES that were feeding right into the fire’s origin… but the POWER POLE they were connecting to is obscured by the large tree on the left of the photo.
The tree that still had FIRE burning at the base of it when that photo was taken.
Well… here are a series of posts with photographs taken by other people which clearly show the POWER POLE in question right there at the very origin of the fire.
The Methow Valley News
Article Title: Okanogan Complex Fire top priority in U.S.
Published: Aug 22, 2015 at 3:34 PM ( 3 days after the Twisp Fire Tragedy )
Article and Photos by: Marcy Stamper, Methow Valley News
http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/22/okanogan-complex-fire-top-priority-in-u-s/
From the article…
———————————————————-
The THIRD photo down on this article…
Photo by Marcy Stamper showing investigators at the origin of the fire. The POWER POLE seen in the background in the left center of the photo, just beyond the structure, is the same POWER POLE that is hidden from view on the left side of the photo at the TOP of the recent US Forestry ‘Twisp Initial Summary’ report.
The entrance to Woods Canyon Road would be just off the RIGHT SHOULDER of the person taking this photo.
PHOTO CAPTION
Investigators from the U.S. Forest Service were already at work on Friday near where the Twisp River Fire appears to have started.
———————————————————-
** DIRECT LINK TO MARCY STAMPER’S TWISP POWER POLE PHOTO…
Direct link to the Marcy Stamper ‘power pole’ photo itself ( seen in the above article )
sitting on the ‘Methow Valley News’ Server…
http://methowvalleynews.com/wp-content/uploads/MarcyInvestigate_5006.jpg
**
** CLOSEUP OF THE TWISP POWER POLE IN QUESTION…
And here is a CLOSEUP of that same POWER POLE taken from about the same location as the Marcy Stamper photo above… but with a telephoto lens and showing 3 ‘investigators’ huddled at the base of the pole itself.
HARGRAY NEWS ONLINE
Article Title: ‘A hole in our state’s heart’: 3 firefighters mourned
Published: August 21, 2015 2:55am
By: BRIAN SKOLOFF and NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS – Associated Press
http://www.hargray.net/news/read/category/us/article/the_associated_press-3_firefighters_die_in_wildfire_after_vehicle_crash-ap
The close-up photo of the POWER POLE is the 10th image in the 16 image slideshow at the top of the article.
It was taken by Associated Press photographer Ted S. Warren..
And here is a DIRECT link to the photo mentioned above.
Clicking this link should ‘bypass’ the ‘slideshow’ on that page and just show you a copy of the 10th photo in that slideshow… which is the CLOSEUP of the POWER POLE sitting there at the origin of the Twisp fire… and with the 3 ‘investigators’ standing next to it…
http://image.vam.synacor.com.edgesuite.net/d5/84/d584aaf75df20d1767b301455f8bd47c7d470ce2/h=300/?app=portal&sig=51bb5d0af651d7aec4a10085af72a45b1861319cd3f8649845ba7095250d4d73
Transformer Pole—
Normally a bad Transformer would burn the top part of the Pole.
Also some times will Spark until it shuts off there is a Breaker on the Transformer
that has to be switched back on.
Looks like no limbs in the way that could have arched there.
Added info—- I had a Fire one time caused by a Hawk that landed on a line and its wing touched another line causing a ark which immediately killed the Hawk which fell on fire and started a brush fire on the Angeles NF.
They should have been able to narrow the start down to under the power pole. It helps to know with in an acre the location of the start. to work burn patterns back to the point of origin.
The power pole is a high suspect and a good possibility. I do not think it would have started from lighting based on all of the info WTKTT gave us.
Even a sleeper would have been visible from the road 3 days smoldering.
That is highly unlikely to have happened
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 29, 2015 at 8:35 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Transformer Pole—
>> Normally a bad Transformer would burn the top part
>> of the Pole. Also some times will Spark until it shuts
>> off there is a Breaker on the Transformer
>> that has to be switched back on.
Agree… but one of the things the surprised me once finding these photos of that pole right there at the origin of this Twisp fire is that it does NOT seem to have a transformer on it.
It looks for all the world like just a regular ‘junction’ pole.
There IS a ‘triflex’ service drop coming off it and down towards that small structure there… but this is only seen in that photo that is at the top of the CRAP team’s “Twisp Initial Summary Report”.
So that’s still a little confusing.
( Unless there WAS a transformer on it…and it had already fallen off the pole and was lying there on the ground somewhere? )
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Looks like no limbs in the way that could have arched there.
Totally agree.
When I first saw that photo at the top of the CRAP report, with the power lines just appearing to ‘disappear into the trees’… I thought sure a better view was going to show trees encroaching onto the pole and the lines and being close enough for ‘limb strikes’ if the wind gusted.
I would say now that that is NOT ( repeat NOT ) the case.
These ‘better’ photos don’t seem to show much of a possibility at all of a ‘limb strike’ against that pole or those lines.
If one of those near trees FELL… then you’re looking at a power-line takedown… but I’m not seeing anything close enough to make the chance of a wind-driven limb-strike the cause of this fire.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Added info—- I had a Fire one time caused by a Hawk
>> that landed on a line and its wing touched another
>> line causing a ark which immediately killed the
>> Hawk which fell on fire and started a brush fire
>> on the Angeles NF.
Saw the same thing, once… only minus the ‘widland fire’ outcome.
It was a large Turkey Buzzard that landed on a ‘juntion pole’ ( no transformer’ but wingspan was enough to touch BOTH wires after it landed on the pole.
Same result. The bird totally burst into flames and was still fully on fire when it hit the ground.
It happens.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They should have been able to narrow the start down to
>> under the power pole. It helps to know with in an acre
>> the location of the start. to work burn patterns back to
>> the point of origin.
Well… as the photos above show… they certainly WERE looking carefully at the area around the bottom of the pole.
But were they even GOOD enough to know what to look for?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The power pole is a high suspect and a good possibility.
>> I do not think it would have started from lighting based
>> on all of the info WTKTT gave us.
>> Even a sleeper would have been visible from the
>> road 3 days smoldering.
>> That is highly unlikely to have happened
Agree. I think we can eliminate lightning, altogether.
The Weather links ( and photos and charts and graphs ) that RTS also posted below even go far beyond the ones I posted in proving there were NO STORMS in that area in the time leading up to the first reports of the fire around NOON on Wednesday, August 19, 2015… and that the eventual WIND SHIFT that day was TOTALLY PREDICTABLE.
What would still have been nice ( required? ) is that the people who have already taken 3 months to investigate this fire would have at least included this same kind of ‘information’ in their fucking report.
OK Looking at the Picture above I see something black on the right side of the pole just below the cross arm, but cant enlarge the picture to see what it is. It looked like a transformer when I made my statement above. It at first looked partially covered by the pole. Now I am not sure?????
A few of the excerpts that caught my eye here:
“All three men were from HIGHLY SPECIALIZED CREWS that go into dangerous areas as fast as they can to examine a scene and report back to commanders on what needs to be done, said Bill Queen, a firefighting spokesman.
“IT JUST KIND OF EXPLODED AND THEY GOT CAUGHT IN A BURN OVER,” said Queen, referring to what happens when conditions change so rapidly that flames overtake firefighters.
First, these were NOT ‘highly specialized crews’ but regular FSY employees that were trained in the basic WFF Rules AND they likely had several months of experience on wildfires nearby in their state based on WA DNR Wildcad data (link below)
And second, and most outrageous, yet typical of ‘spokesmen’ is the fire ‘JUST KIND OF EXPLODED AND THEY GOT CAUGHT IN A BURN OVER.’ Really? NO fire ‘just kind of explod[es]. Fires follow very a predictable path while increasing in intensity. It’s basically fire physics. So then, it’s NOT possible for a wildfire to ‘just explode.’ And the reason they ‘got caught in a burn over’ is also somewhat typical of ‘spokesmen’ playing the victim card. They got caught and then burned over because they failed to follow the basic WFF Rules. Here’s some that come to mind:
Fire Order Number 1 – Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
Fire Order Number 2 – Know what your fire is doing at all times.
Fire Order Number 3 – Base all actions on current and expected fire behavior.
Fire Order Number 5 – Post lookouts when there is possible danger
Fire Order Number 10 – Fight fire aggressively providing for safety first.
The left flank WFF followed The WFF Rules and were fine, while the right flank WFF did NOT follow The WFF Rules. The outcomes are very predictable.
Part 1 of 2
Periodically I like to hit what I like to think of as the reset button in order to attempt to refocus or redirect this conversation to where I think it needs to be, or to clarify something I or others have said…this is one of those times.
1. Downstream I said “everybody is in a MOOD today” and even though this was in reply to a comment that Marti made, it was not directed at Marti, even though she responded as if it were. My comment was merely intended as a light reference to the fact that almost everyone seemed to be commenting at one time on a particular subject, which is rare.
2. RTS named several fires and specific things that went wrong on those fires that led to wildland firefighter’s deaths, but he left out my favorite bone to chew on…the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976. FYI, we always say the name of the fire and the year it occurred because there has probably been a Battlement Creek Fire every year up that drainage since we started naming fires.
On the particular fire in question, the hotshot crew boss, Tony Czak had “his head down” burning shortly before he and most of his burn out team died. I know this for a fact because it was reported at the time and more importantly…it took a backfire from below several hours to reach him and he didn’t get out of the way.
3. I want to clarify why I think the hours worked by the GMIHC on June 29, 2013, is an important issue and it is not merely a “gotcha” moment intended to detract from the legacy and further tarnish the reputation and memory of the GMIHC.
I have made a reference a couple of times over the past two years to “our house” in reference to the work generations of hotshots have put into building their profession and the impact that the GMIHC have had on that previously unheralded, obscure and noble profession, or at least a really bichin’ job.
But the fact is, hotshots only have a room in that house, and many generations of wildland firefighters of all types have worked very hard to build that house. And now, the legacy of the GMIHC is fucking all of that hard work up by DESCERATING OUR HOUSE, the house that WE built.
And FYI – if you ever see any photo of a firefighters posing with ANY turn out gear on…they are not a wildland firefighter. They are a poser and a wannabe, primarily because of money and prestige. Money, because their union rules allow them to legally rape the system and prestige due to all of the news coverage because so many houses have burned up due to the explosion of the wildland/urban interface paradox.
I know this because I self identify as a retired wildland firefighter 90 percent of the time people ask me, “what exactly…do you DO?” And I have noticed the transition over the years from getting the blank stare of yesteryear to the what happens nowadays…the arched eyebrows and saucer wide eyes and the, “oh my.”
This latest desecration is over the GMIHC institutional and widespread falsification of fire time reports. I say “institutional and widespread” because when you find out by accident somebody has done something so outrageous and blatant one time…it’s not the first time, it is just the first time they got caught.
So…I am reading a lot of blah…blah…blah. Please allow me to cut to the chase for you. The kind of fraud where you are getting paid for drinking or being home or doing anything other than working on fire related activities for several hours was not allowed for in my day. Rounding up to the next hour if it is past when the big hand is on the 6…maybe.
The system is NOT…and has never been that lackadaisical. And it sure as hell is not that way ever since our unfunded war of choice in Iraq. Time keepers run a pretty tight ship and they always have…they have to; it’s their job and possibly their freedom on the line…the bottom line.
In fact, everything about the system is designed to prevent the kind of theft by fraud we know now the GMIHC engaged in by choice. Not the entire crew necessarily…but it is something their leadership definitely did, maybe with the help of others. And we are not talking about the kind of fraud that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, we are talking about the kind of proof you need for a corrective administrative action. This isn’t federal court.
Now…the way I remember it happening in my day, is that the fire time report was left “open” and would be “closed” once we were off the clock. It is not like the “fire” stops paying for anything that is not documented to have occurred on that day anyway.
Try investigating a wildfire and assembling all of the costs associated with that particular fire and you will find that out…it takes many months and often more than a year. And even if they wanted to guesstimate how long it takes to drive crew carriers from Skull Valley (which if very close to Prescott) to Station 7 (the home of the GMIHC) and then to get “fire ready” again by sharpening the fire tools and refilling the canteens etc., the time does not vary that much from fire to fire. So please knock it off with the blah…blah…blah.
I will write more on this later as WTKTT says, in the meantime, I want to close out Part 1 by posting an email (with permission) I received from one the people I communicate with on a regular basis in our efforts to sort through this mess.
The actions of the GMIHC regarding their time keeping has sullied the hard earned reputations in the eyes of the American tax payer of every wildland firefighter who has busted his or her ass to earn every hour they have been paid for while engaged in a dangerous and noble profession.
“It has been many decades since I had any association with USFS time sheets — any time sheet, not just a fire time sheet — but I have been hoping that somewhere in WFF land someone who has CURRENT experience with it would post some comments on IM and enlighten readers as to just how much today’s Fire Time Sheet keepers are thoroughly educated in this area of finance and continually made ‘acutely aware’ of the GRAVITY of falsifying a time sheet.
My recollections are that while on the job there was never any let-up regarding what the penalties were for falsifying your own or anyone else’s time sheet. No one EVER referred to it as “fudging.” They referred to it as “a felony violation of federal law.” And, if you wanted to keep your job and a clean criminal record, you didn’t do it. Ever.
I am concerned that it might be a little too easy for anyone outside the world of FIRE TIME SHEETS to gloss over what is actually involved here when someone in government service demonstrates the capacity to easily dismiss the regulations (and all the associated pressures accompanying them) and deliberately falsify a time sheet. Or multiple time sheets. I don’t think it can be stressed enough, in the current discussions, that falsification is NO SMALL MATTER. Such an action says something very detrimental about the person who holds that position of responsibility. That is the bottom line about this whole matter.”
The ‘blah, blah, blah’ you seem to be referring to down below was, in fact, very educational for some of us ( the taxpaying public ).
I believe what came out of that ‘blah, blah, blah’ was the following…
1. NO, it is not unusual at all in the WFF business for some AFMO or TFLD(t) or whoever the hell else is even ‘allowed’ to sign a CTR ( Crew Time Report ) to just accept whatever ‘future time’ is already written on the sheet for when that crew will really, truly, be ‘off the clock’… and just SIGN the timesheet and let them go.
2. YES… it IS unusual for crews to ‘fuck around’ with that and use it as a way to ‘cheat the system’ and ‘award’ themselves hours they didn’t work.
In other words… this ‘loosey goosey’ approach to hourly time reporting generally works.
But that being said… it REMAINS a huge ‘license to steal’ for anyone who thinks they are clever enough to get away with it. Either occasionally or on a consistent basis.
There was also a lot of “well this person checks this and that person checks that” down there in the ‘blah, blah, blah’ as well… which was equally fascinating to hear… but I think I pointed out that in THIS case ( Granite Mountain CTR for June 29, 2013 )… we ALSO have the payroll disbursement records that ADOSH obtained from the City of Prescott.
No matter ‘who checked what or verified what or adjusted what’… the ACTUAL monetary payouts from the City of Prescott match exactly the number of hours being claimed on that CTR for June 29, 2013.
So that means ( if they had all lived )… they all WOULD have received the actual MONEY from the City of Prescott Payroll department for a number of hours of overtime on June 29 that seemed to have actually been spent either having dinner at home, in restaurants, or while slinging beers at Moctezuma’s Bar on Whiskey Row.
No one expects to lose their entire crew on a fire, and have it become a historic national tragedy, and then have people do their JOBS afterwards and try to figure out how it all happened.
But that’s what happened THIS time… and that’s why we have this body of evidence about what all these guys were doing the night BEFORE they died.
So how many times did they do the same thing… but no one bothered to check where they were the night before? That’s the lingering question.
Well…here is the Readers Digest version of my blah…blah..blah. The system is not easy to cheat unless you really intend to so. I believe the GMIHC really intended to do so, and therefore there was no unintentional fraud involved in this case.
It was done deliberately and quite frankly, I believe it was done intentionally a lot. This was probably…in my opinion done to increase the payments to the City of Prescott and save the crew from elimination.
Oh…and one more thing. I found it all very confusing and a little bit like the mumbo jumbo a defense attorney would put out to muddy the waters by saying, “yes, they falsified their fire time reports” but the system is so complex and confusing, we really don’t know if they did it for sure…or on purpose.
Yes, they did it on purpose and the system is not that confusing unless you are trying to make it confusing in order to manipulate it.
Ah,,, okay… I see that you just weren’t following the logic of “looking for alternate explanations”.for what the evidence certainly seems to show.
That’s all I was doing, anyway with the ‘followup’, anyway.
Standard “trying to eliminate the impossible… because after you do… whatever you are left with ( however improbable ) must be the TRUTH”.
Heard a lot of “well… it’s never supposed to be able to happen because a lot of people are supposed to check shit”….
…but I don’t think I heard anything that amounts to an alternate (plausible) explanation.
The ‘evidence’ seems to be what it is.
The only way to ‘reverse’ what it seems to show would be…
1. Somehow prove that the Granite Mountain Crew Time Report for June 29, 2013 obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA and the Phoenix New Times via Arizona Open Records requests is somehow ‘manufactured’ and NOT the CTR that was actually submitted. ( Even though the hours claims match the independent payroll report obtained from the City of Prescott ).
2. Somehow prove that ALL of the ‘stories’ and the ‘testimony’ following the tragedy about where Marsh, Steed, Caldwell, McDonough, McKenzie, Zuppiger, Norris and OTHER crew members really WERE on the evening of June 29, 2013 when the timesheet says they were still ‘at work’ and earning overtime are… somehow… ALL bogus.
I’m gonna say that neither scenario seems ‘possible’.
So that means what has now been proved ‘impossible’ is for the ENTIRE Granite Mountain Crew ( all 20 ) to have still been actually ‘at work’ and earning overtime until 10:30 PM on Saturday night,, as their timesheet says they were supposed to be doing.
That only leaves… they were ‘cheating the system’ that evening and earning hours they weren’t working.
The math I did below was only based on something that was published saying that the City of Prescott charged $39.95 per hour, per man, for every hour the Crew was ‘on the clock’ with someone ( like the Prescott National Forest ).
That rounds out to about $2,300 dollars of ‘fake’ hours that night.
The timesheets say they were in OVERTIME until 10:30 PM… so if that also means that Prescott was ALSO able to then bill at a rate HIGHER than $39.95 per hour per man… well… then whatever that ‘higher rate’ was… the math would still be…
3 ( or more ) bogus hours per man TIMES 20 men TIMES ( Fill-in-the-rate ).
Followup…
I live in a town where the City Manager himself was criminally charged for taking money for hours it could be proved he never worked.
Total amount: $1400.
And whatever money might have been paid out to the City of Prescott for hours that never got worked on June 29 was coming from the ‘Federal Government’.
Both the ‘West Spruce’ and the ‘Mount Josh’ fires were on the Prescott National Forest.
No…I don’t think there is an alternative explanation. I think they were stealing and stealing for two reasons. Personal gain and to increase the amount of the payments to the City of Prescott which in turn would (hopefully) save the crew from elimination.
Well… FWIW… maybe Sonny is going to finally get his wish about the FBI getting involved.
The evidence is what it is… and it certainly seems to show that money was being ‘stolen’ from the Federal Government.
The bogus hours were being ‘charged back’ to the Prescott National Forest.
By the way… Jason Clawson ( who appears to be the one who might have signed BOTH the June 28 and June 29 timesheets ) no longer works for the Prescott National Forest.
He is still U.S. Forestry… and still in Arizona… but back in April of this year he left his AFMO job at the Prescott National Forest and took a job as a ‘Deputy Fire Staff Officer’ on the Kaibab National Forest.
If anyone still needs to be ‘interviewed’ about Yarnell ( and now, perhaps, specifically about these June 29 and 29 timesheets )… it’s Jason Clawson.
** ORIGINAL ANNOUNCEMENT THAT JASON
** CLAWSON WAS LEAVING THE PRESCOTT
** NATIONAL FOREST…
The PUBLIC minutes for the Prescott Area Wildland/Urban Interface Commission ( PAWUIC ) meeting that was held on May 7, 2015
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/53233282e4b094a873b75785/t/556f56cce4b0ddaf03e1e532/1433360076341/PAWUIC+May+2015.pdf
—————————————————————–
Prescott Area Wildland/Urban Interface Commission
Minutes for meeting on May 7, 2015
Participants: Chris Kuknyo, Jason Clawson, Ronnie Gamble, Don Devendorf, Russ Shumate, others.
Section: Prescott National Forest updates…
Jason Clawson is leaving. He has accepted a positon on the Kaibab National Forest in Williams, AZ.
8. Guest Speaker
Chris Kuknyo, City Councilman and Mayor Pro-Tem
Chris’ goal is to address issues surrounding the FY2016 city budget and the effect it has on fuels mitigation efforts within the City of Prescott. He is also passionate about working towards increasing governmental transparency and responsiveness to all citizens. Chris is a long time resident of Prescott, moving from Chicago to Prescott when he was 13.
There continues to be a great deal of UNANSWERED QUESTIONS regarding the YARNELL HILL TRAGEDY and Chris is dedicated to continuing to ask the tough ones.
—————————————————————–
Thanks WTKTT–I think Otis is retired FBI or affiliate of some sort and I believe a lot of those fellows follow this JD site. JD is certainly fearless and showed up to get at new information even at the cost of a loss of a weekend. JD will want to know that very man he was trying to interview showed up at the hospital just after the Gods sent me back from the dead. It shows that mans mutual concern for the truth of why those 19 men died.
Of the retired investigator that I was in the VA hospital with I had a few questions. Since he and his partner had brought down some big crime syndicates I wondered how it could be done. He explained that you go after the weakest link you can find. Then you start taking them down one by one and eventually he says the whole organization falls like so many king pins.
I wonder what the excuses for so many gag orders will be. That one that threatened a man’s livlihood in a written letter ought to be a worse felony than even shredding evidence as we have been told by reputable sources was done during the Yarnell situation. Can’t these bosses that are obviously protecting themselves and their cronies by gagging what really came about to cause the deaths of 19 wild land firefighters see that they are puttting future lives in jeopardy? The information withheld from the firefighting community and the public is life saving information and can and will keep young fire fighters from making the same mistakes these men and their bosses made. Seen in its proper perspective, to deny this information is tatamount to murder.
So yes it is almost the duty of an outside source we can depend on for the full truth of the matter to expose all the cover up we have seen during this investigation. When an organization investigates itself then we see what most of us who look for the truth have been exposing –slowly and painfully. When these yahoos start looking at FBI badges and their professional investigators get involved–if they are not already– then you will see this stack of dominoes begin to fall. It is only fair to the new man on the line and those people who have lost so much by seeing their loved one’s lives squandered so carelessly.
I did ask that retired investigator if he worried considering the big syndicate types he had a hand in bringing down. He said of course he takes precautions. Then he compared it to the 19 lives lost in that basin. He said if they cared no more about those men’s lives than to risk them that way do you think they would care any more for one life that gave them problems?
Gary,
The reason I left out the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 was because the question posed to me by Woodsman was fires where Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes occurred with Municipal/Structure/Wildland Fire Departments.
I’ll address the Falsification of Time issue tomorrow.
Oh..
Thank you again Gary Olsen. Too bad the investigations in the Yarnell Hill Fire disaster are not as truthful and candid as you are. I do agree with the theft angle–something that must be rampant in this business. Something that seems askew to me is that these men on the line are underpaid. In the 70’s if I wasn’t drawing at least $15 an hour I was not a happy miner. Some contracts would pull $26 or more an hour for me. Granted that hard rock underground mining is not easy money but it seems this wildfire work is right up there with the physical demands and danger involved–even if all the safety rules are followed. I would say if you dont’t cut Willis types pay and spread it among the troops, then place more money in the hands of all those men doing the grunt work. I would never see public objections seeing the resources these men save and the dirty physical work along with the dangers they face. This should have the positive effect of cutting down on the cheating.
Now we speak of the felonies involved in stealing money by fudging hours. I was talking to a long time retired investigator–he was loosing two toes from diabetes–while I was in emergency because that was the only way I could get meds and I did not want this old heart to stop beating again. Those tubes they ram down your throat make and other proceedure make you want to stay dead once you wake up and feel the effects of all that. But looking at that, how about shredding documents related to the Yarnell Hill Fire. Well I mentioned it to this Investigator considering his long time partner was a black bag FBI agent. He replied that this would be an even greater crime than stealing money. Especially if it were involving the investigation into deaths of firemen. He said it could even be a murder charge. Whew the laws are complicated and I would not have know that. But I do know that very thing happened and witnesses to it are more than one and that information was passed along to me from one of those who worked in the profession and has credentials as clean as you could find. He even wrote a treatise on this fire. So there was one more thing that ought to attract outside investigators, but as that man said, it would take some cajoling from loved ones whom had
Should have been that the investigator said the FBI or other pertenent investigators would only get involved if someone or some of the direct relatives cajoled them. He said they definetly would if that happened. I do personally believe their expertise would ferret out the truth and especially with what is already revealed by these personal investigations.
The second biggest road block (second to the agencies) to this investigation has always been the families. By and large, I think they have always been happy with the original narrative and are by and large, resentful of any alternative explanations.
I am pretty sure this latest go round will really piss them off…royally.
So…I don’t think we can count on them to help find the truth.
If the evidence is correct… then the money was being ‘stolen’ by the City of Prescott from the Federal Government itself.
Both the June 28 ‘West Spruce’ and June 29 ‘Mount Josh’ timesheets were submitted for work (supposedly) performed on the Prescott National Forest.
Doesn’t matter what the families think regarding this one.
Maybe the FEDS will come looking for their money ( and wondering, themselves, how much they might be ‘looking for’ ).
Followup…
My only comment for any ‘family member’ who might be bent out of shape to learn this evidence is, in fact, sitting there would be that this evidence is, in fact, sitting there.
No one is making it up.
The timesheets were in public view long before ANY ‘reports’ came out.
The only ‘additional’ component is that in the time SINCE those timesheets were first published, a large body of evidence has also, in fact, emerged which makes it impossible for those men to have been where the said they were and earning the overtime they were that Saturday evening.
Also… am I the only one who still wonders why there are DOZENS and DOZENS of ‘former GMHS’ still walking around… and NONE of them have ever had ANYTHING to say about their time with the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’?
Given the magnitude of the tragedy, and now the TIME that has gone by, I still think it is more than strange that NONE of these people have EVER had anything to say… good, bad or ugly.
It remains… weird?
The real facts it aint agona happen.
The FS will not pursue it. They Died and Not a ounce of dirt will be thrown on the Graves. The contract is no longer the Crew is no longer.
its over.
Even if no one ever decides to investigate…. that EVIDENCE will now always just be sitting there and it will now always be a part of the ‘human factors’ story surrounding this tragic/historic incident.
It is what it is ( unless someone wants to find out it isn’t ).
It looks like Granite Mountain WAS in ‘the business’ of padding time sheets and hours ( for EVERY member of the crew ) if/when they thought they could get away with it.
WTKTT, I would hope you go on to be one of the investigators for the FEDS. Your contributions have exposed so much of the corruption involved in these deaths. Thanks for your efforts–It gives us hope that we will eventually get true answers.
Seems that there were ways of dihonestly making money during this fire and several fire departments involved. Here we were informed that the Yarnell department worked the Peeples Valley area while the Peeples Valley department worked the Yarnell area simply because out of town pay is much better if they can work out of their area. That woud seem to be a graft system and a type of theft if proven? Or do they have some loophole to do such things to generate themselves more money.
Something that I wonder about that some of you experienced wild fire men ought to know would be approximately how long after a lightening strike would you see the smoke column? I am still bothered by the information that there are photos of two yellow and white quads that were at the smoke on Friday when this started. Neither of us have seen the photos but know of the lady that is purported to have the photos and the man who told us about them is a reputable person. We are told she is not the only one to have seen the quads on Friday so there appears to be more to that than just talk. You were looking for birds on a wire on the twisp fire while i was looking for fulgarites or a split tree or something at the assumed point of origen. Something started this fire and I sometimes wonder if the lightening happened to be coincidental to some other reason–like a burning bird or drone touching down or even a backfiring quad.
After watching the reaction of loved ones to the 911 victims, I realized how important truth and closure are to folks who lost friends and loved ones in the Yarnell fire. That is quite a story about the man who pumped three bullets into the face of Usama so the thousands of lives he orchestrated the deaths of were well repaid by his facial. The people preferred the truth and justice and they finally got it when Obama took out Usama but it took some time and certain Navy Seals that were willing to risk getting it done. The country’s wildfire men deserve every bit the professional attention that was given the 911 ordeal.
Reply to Sonny post on November 29, 2015 at 11:46 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Something started this fire and I sometimes wonder
>> if the lightening happened to be coincidental to
>> some other reason–like a burning bird or drone
>> touching down or even a backfiring quad.
Sonny… I’m not discounting anything you are wondering with regards to these mysterious ‘quads’… but just thought I would point out that there WAS an ‘eyewitness’ to the actual lightning strike who said the ‘smoke’ was then rising immediately after she saw the strike.
Local resident Barbara Kelso ( who had served for seven years as the chairman of the Yarnell Fire District Board ) is the one who supposedly witnessed the actual lightning strike that started the Yarnell Hill Fire… and the ‘smoke’ appearing (quote) “moments later”.
John Dougherty originally published this ‘eyewitness’ report about the Friday afternoon lightning strike just days after the tragedy, at 9:26 a.m., July 6, 2013.
He re-published the same story on May 7, 2015, because some documents linked to in the original article sitting on the Yarnell Fire Department site had vanished.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Slow Response, Predictable Path of Thunderstorms, Were Precursors to Yarnell Hill Firefighters’ Deaths
By John Dougherty
Originally publshed: July 6, 2013
Re-published: May 7, 2015
http://www.investigativemedia.com/slow-response-predictable-thunderstorms-were-precursors-to-yarnell-hill-firefighters-deaths/
From the top of the article…
————————————————————-
InvestigativeMedia is reposting the following story that was first published at 9:26 a.m., July 6, 2013. The story includes a series of bulletins issued by the Yarnell Fire Department that were removed from its website shortly after this story was first posted. The bulletins show that department recognized the threat posed by the thunderstorms by early on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, hours before 19 members of Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed in a box canyon west of Yarnell. In fact, the department warned the community to be on “high alert” in an early morning bulletin on June 30.
By John Dougherty
Peeples Valley, AZ – Ninety-four-year-old Barbara Kelso was having dinner in a restaurant in this small ranching community 90 miles northwest of Phoenix on Friday, June 28 when she saw a lightning bolt strike the hills a few miles away. Moments later, smoke started billowing skyward.
Kelso, who retired in December as chairman of the Yarnell Fire District Board after serving seven years, immediately called 911.
“They said they heard of the smoke and someone was checking,” Kelso said during an impromptu interview at the Southwest Incident Management Command center where officials are directing firefighting operations for the Yarnell Hill fire that has burned more than 8,200 acres.
Kelso works as a volunteer for the Command, which is based in a local middle school. “I think I saw the lightning bolt that started the fire,” she said during a July 5 interview.
While Kelso was immediately alarmed because she knew that a record-breaking heat wave had just finished blistering the already drought-stricken chaparral draped across the high-desert mountains surrounding Yarnell, the Arizona State Forestry Division and U.S. Bureau of Land Management reacted slowly.
No crews were sent until the next day, June 29, and by then, the fire was beginning to take hold.
The slow reaction to what was initially a manageable wildfire was a prelude to the disaster that soon followed. Nineteen of the 20 firefighters from the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew were killed sometime after 4 p.m. on Sunday, June 30 as a powerful thunderstorm created a swirling ring of fire engulfing the men.
Mounting evidence is now indicating that the hotshot crew, for unknown reason, hiked nearly head on into a line of violent thunderstorms that National Weather Service meteorologists had been tracking all day from Flagstaff, Ariz., about 92 miles northeast of Peeples Valley.
————————————————————-
I agree to that. It seems that the monetary reward and prospects of making heroes on the mountain theme has the greater part of their vision obscured. Somewhere I have to think it will dawn on them that money and fame are the bullshit that can never make up for the lies that have been put out to cover up the real reason those men died. Every one of the dead ones would want the world to know every detail of why they perished. They would want all their own errors known as well as the screw ups of their managers in pretty white pickups. To set things right can only bear out to save future lives and change things that need to be changed so this sort of thing doen’t happen again or if it does the culprits responsible are held accountable instead of being given awards. That is what honors those men–the admission of their human error and the causes that can be changed.
Statues and accolades to error is a temporary veil over the truth. None of that will add to the quality and safety of future wild land firefighters. Money and effort to hide the real facts of these deaths detracts from the profession as a whole. If you think that you will become a wild land firefighter so you might get a statue of yourself on the mountain then you might. But how did you earn that statue. Sadly it was through error and bad ones at that to get the statue. Yet the youner ones had no error except to obey and their bosses who knew the safe proceedures get statues even after blatlantly causing the deaths of their subordinates. It does not make sense to me. But the truth does and will benefit all of us — yet I believe as much as people on this JD and he himself has sought the truth–it will take outside resources to break through the obvious croniesm that has make a pig snot into sweet pudding.
Very well said Sonny. Very sad, but very true.
Sonny said-
Those tubes they ram down your throat make and other proceedure make you want to stay dead once you wake up and feel the effects of all that.
MY REPLY-
I have experienced that to my life before Sonny—where you been so I wanted to help you through it—
True.
Yet I prayed very thorough and with MUCH demand and depth to see your eyes open and get you off the morphine asap and other crap asap…you are very precious…The most wonderful thing is I was looking around the room and I was alone with your face all ballooned up as well as other areas like hands and ankle/feet/shins and these very very swollen heavy-lidded eyes as I kept massaging and get the fluids pumped out of you every 13 minutes I did my normal lymphatic movements to get the shit pumped out of you…and when I thought maybe all this talking to you and playing your favorite songs and playing Ered Matthew’s play…it was the part on his play where you say “that’s the saltiest thing I eevvveeerrr tasted…but that’s the way I like it”…your eyes opened. I looked around and thought—“never give up”—not on another person or oneself—keep fighting the fight and this fire has had its battles yet in talking to some loved ones you are all wrong or mistaken—not all are ok with the SAIR and in due time thei voice(s) will be heard.
Someone said:
The second biggest road block (second to the agencies) to this investigation has always been the families. By and large, I think they have always been happy with the original narrative and are by and large, resentful of any alternative explanations.
My reply:
that is not fact. In due time- I can tell you at least one loved one IS doing their own investigation and that person is paranoid but gung-ho to get the facts together and that person really appreciates any person still in this battle to this date. That person told me stuff that shocked the shit out of me but they are blessed to have the INS on this fire so I do have a question— do any of you know of the name who tried to commit suicide after the YHF that was on that fire? That person does…
you also Sonny had a dangerously high fever and infection at that point and were not able to breathe on your own
Sonny, you may feel weak in the body for now but you ARE alive and on to better days— rest up—sometimes we get to a point and feel we can accomplish so much in life—reach for the most beautiful colorful stars under the moon—and don’t settle for less—I believe in you and your recovery—and the Universe has your back—you will get stronger—even in the darkest of times—light shines—You inspire my life. Taught me alot. Awareness has been shown to you—You are connected—keep resting and relaxing—keep honoring your heart and what you have done for the 19—your soul has never failed you this far—Smiles.
as my mom and Marti Reed would say Sonny
Namaste-
I haven’t done too much this week—but come Monday I am gearing my backpack to do my desert walking again—I got my matches to grill salmon over a desert cowgirl campfire and have my kale salad all set—going to explore a place I call Owl Capone headquarters— it is a rock climbing cave off the top of a hill where so many owls stay— I use to like to sit in there with them and catch up on what’s new down below—their space is the best view of the desert activity below— except it is hunting season and there was one season I almost got a bow in my right ear and a bullet by my left arm–we got ignorant California -not legal hunters in these parts— they just shoot with no aim—I never hunted that way—
Gary,
It’s obvious you’ve been off the firelines for awhile. A lot has changed in the IMT world of Finance, particularly in the 16-hour Rule and in the contentious Meal Periods realm, and I allege, both are rife with fraud and Falsification of Time. So, I” take my turn going on a rant here ….
Starting with the 16-hour issue, most IMT’s allow WFF’s to ‘show’ 16 hours without any problems whatsoever, some 15 1/2 because they insist on the ‘show’ a Meal Period feculence. There are WFF’s showing and getting approved, 16-hour shifts for the whole fire season. Just justify your times with activities such as hotline, line construction, firing operations, holding operations, etc. and you’re usually just fine. I say the 16-hour rule is a bribe because most WFF will put up with about anything if they’re clocking 16-hour days, including falsifying their times.
Then there is the bogus and fraudulent Meal Periods issue. The Interagency Incident Business Handbook (IIBH) states that “Compensable Meal Periods are the exception, not the rule (5 CFR 551.411(c) & 29 CFR 785.19(a)) for federal resources.” However, this begs the question, why are they the exception? Actually, they are the rule when you actually look at the relevant CFR cited in the IIBH.
The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) puts the Federal statutes into place an are a much higher legal authority than the IIBH. The IIBH cites 29 CFR 785.19a as the relevant legal authority for Bona Fide and Compensable Meal Periods. A Bona Fide Meal Period is one you actually are able to take and a Compensable Meal Period is one you must perform work during that period.
29 CFR Part 785 – Hours Worked
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=48d6ee3b99d3b3a97b1bf189e1757786&rgn=div5&view=text&node=29:3.1.1.2.45&idno=29
So, 29 CFR 785.19a has three (3) prongs to determine whether a Meal Period is compensable or not compensable as follows:
(1) Management has directed the employee to perform work and/or duties, and
(2) The employee is not completely relieved from duty for the purposes of eating regular meals, and
(3) The employee is not free to leave his post .
However, the IIBH has a DIFFERENT VERSION that does NOT square with the CFR, a much higher legal authority. Here is the IIBH version, as follows:
“Personnel on the fireline may be compensated for their meal period if ALL (‘and’ in small letters and underlined in original) of the following conditions are met:
“*The fire is not controlled, and (‘and’ in small letters and underlined in original)
•The Operations Section Chief makes a decision that it is critical to the effort of controlling the fire that personnel remain at their post of duty and continue to work as they eat, and (‘and’ in small letters and underlined in original)
•The compensable meal break is approved by the supervisor at the next level and it is documented on the CTR, SF-261.
REALLY? So if the CFR is a legal higher authority, how is it the IIBH, a much lower legal authority, can just make up the “FIRE IS NOT CONTROLLED” out of whole cloth? This IIBH version is NOT in the CFR and just made up and fabricated by the NWCG IIBH.
Here is the quote directly from 29 CFR Part 785.19a (and 19b) Meal Periods, with legal references:
“(a) Bona fide meal periods. Bona fide meal periods are not worktime. Bona fide meal periods do not include coffee breaks or time for snacks. These are rest periods. The employee must be completely relieved from duty for the purposes of eating regular meals. Ordinarily 30 minutes or more is long enough for a bona fide meal period. A shorter period may be long enough under special conditions. The employee is not relieved if he is required to perform any duties, whether active or inactive, while eating. For example, an office employee who is required to eat at his desk or a factory worker who is required to be at his machine is working while eating. (Culkin v. Glenn L. Martin, Nebraska Co., 97 F. Supp. 661 (D. Neb. 1951), aff’d 197 F. 2d 981 (C.A. 8, 1952), cert. denied 344 U.S. 888 (1952); Thompson v. Stock & Sons, Inc., 93 F. Supp. 213 (E.D. Mich 1950), aff’d 194 F. 2d 493 (C.A. 6, 1952); Biggs v. Joshua Hendy Corp., 183 F. 2d 515 (C. A. 9, 1950), 187 F. 2d 447 (C.A. 9, 1951); Walling v. Dunbar Transfer & Storage Co., 3 W.H. Cases 284; 7 Labor Cases para. 61.565 (W.D. Tenn. 1943); Lofton v. Seneca Coal and Coke Co., 2 W.H. Cases 669; 6 Labor Cases para. 61,271 (N.D. Okla. 1942); aff’d 136 F. 2d 359 (C.A. 10, 1943); cert. denied 320 U.S. 772 (1943); Mitchell v. Tampa Cigar Co., 36 Labor Cases para. 65, 198, 14 W.H. Cases 38 (S.D. Fla. 1959); Douglass v. Hurwitz Co., 145 F. Supp. 29, 13 W.H. Cases (E.D. Pa. 1956))
(b) Where no permission to leave premises. It is not necessary that an employee be permitted to leave the premises if he is otherwise completely freed from duties during the meal period.”
Clearly, WFF are NOT free to leave the firelines and therefore, MUST perform required work, i.e. LCES, so they are NOT COMPLETELY RELIEVED FROM DUTY and MUST be compensated.
And here is a watered down IIBH guideline version of the CFR from the USFS PNW Region title “Planning Section – Hot Topics” dealing with pay issues regarding mostly meals and meal periods:
“Bona fide meal periods are not worktime. The employee is not relieved if they are required to perform any duties, whether active or in active, while eating. It is not necessary that an employee be permitted to leave the premises if they are otherwise completely freed from duties during the meal period.”
There are legal precedents for almost all types of workers (policemen, firemen, meat packers, secretaries, meat packers, etc.) but NOT WFF. Why? Because almost all WFF will falsify their times and SHOW a Meal Period and ADD it on later rather than challenge the system and the illegal NWCG version of 29 CFR 785.19a. It’s just easier and ‘everybody else is doing it’ they say.
Many of us have challenged this by calling on the radio and telling your supervisor, for example, that “It’s 1300 and so-and-so Crew is going off-the-air for a Meal break and we will be back on -he-air and on duty at 1330.” Others tell there supervisor they will take the half hour to shut off their radio, find some shade, and sleep for a half hour, when told to ‘show a meal period..’ You can imagine how well those go off.
Yes, Falsification of Time occurs on EVERY fire when dealing with the bogus Meal Period issue.
Gary,
And here is the link for the USFS PNW Planning Section – Hot Topics link referenced above with their ‘VERSION’ of what the CFR says:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/incident-business/documents/IBC-20150331-PlanningHotTopicsHandout.pdf
Gary,
This is what we actually take on the firelines – Rest Periods, however, the NWCG and the IIBH revisions fail to recognize this and.or change it:
§785.18 Rest.
Rest periods of short duration, running from 5 minutes to about 20 minutes, are common in industry. They promote the efficiency of the employee and are customarily paid for as working time. They must be counted as hours worked. Compensable time of rest periods may not be offset against other working time such as compensable waiting time or on-call time. (Mitchell v. Greinetz, 235 F. 2d 621, 13 W.H. Cases 3 (C.A. 10, 1956); Ballard v. Consolidated Steel Corp., Ltd., 61 F. Supp. 996 (S.D. Cal. 1945))
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=48d6ee3b99d3b3a97b1bf189e1757786&rgn=div5&view=text&node=29:3.1.1.2.45&idno=29#se29.3.785_118
In other words, we are ‘working’ while we are eating a sandwich or whatever, performing LCES, talking on the radio, monitoring the weather and fire behavior, monitoring all the channels on the radio, e.g. Command, Tactical, Air-to=Ground, Crew Net, etc.
I stand corrected.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on November 25, 2015 at 10:58 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Furthermore, instead of the FECKLESS attempt at actually cutting a
>> DEPLOYMENT Zone in heavy brush for 2 to 3 minutes, they should have
>> dropped their packs and saws and RUN the 580 yards or 0.33 miles in
>> WELL UNDER 3.07 minutes, based on research that indicated that 60% of
>> the US population can run one mile in nine (9) minutes. Just do the math.
I have. Your ‘math’ matches mine from early on in this discussion.
IAOI ( If And Only If ) they had not been fatally robotic and wasted ANY time even considering whether a deployment in that death trap was survivable… and they had IMMEDIATELY ‘dropped packs and run’… they would have probably made it to the edge of the Boulder Springs Ranch before the fire itself did.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> In other words, they could have and should have made it to the BSR in
>> under 3 minutes, possibly using the buildings as heat sinks, likely
>> having to deploy fire shelters, and likely receiving some burns,
>> and likely alive.
I still also believe that once they had cleared that one last ‘mound’ to their RIGHT as they hauled ass east they *might* have also seen that the way was fairly clear to keep hauling ass now to the SOUTH and towards the Candy Cane Lane area, and complete safety.
But that would have required a level of ‘situational awareness’ about where they even were and what the surrounding topography really looked like and where things ‘went’.
Alas… we all know now they had no such ‘situational awareness’ that day.
They were ‘winging it’… and had past ‘bad decisions with good outcomes’ when ‘winging it’ to make them believe they were going to get away with it one more time.
That’s a game you only get to lose ONCE… and they did.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> That wasted endeavor was NOT heroic or any other BS phrase
>> attempting to glorify them and their actions, it was STUPID and it was deadly.
There also hasn’t really been near enough discussion since that Bill Gabbert / Wildfire today pseudo-interview with Brendan McDonough was published about what seems to be a fact now that Brendan McDonough decided he was tired of obstructing investigations.
The FACT now seems to be that Eric Marsh WAS out AHEAD of those men and was either SUPPOSED to be acting as their ‘forward lookout’ ( and obviously failed that task in a horrific manner )… or Marsh was already at the Ranch when everyone realized there was ‘trouble’.
Brendan McDonough was still just ‘picking and choosing’ what he was going to ‘share’ with a sympathetic / softball interviewer ( Gabbert ).
There is still ‘more to that story’ that needs to be told.
But the bottom line that the poor families will now have to struggle with forever is that even according to Brendan… there was apparently TIME for Eric Marsh to run BACK from safety and TO the men in order to lay down and die with them…
…so that automatically means there was ALSO time for the men themselves to do the opposite… and RUN from where they were TO wherever Marsh HAD been before he decided to RUN to them.
I still think Brenan McDonough knows more… as well as others… including the 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots who were driving the other GM vehicles and listening to the GM Crew-Net.
I think they all know enough to finish putting the puzzle of the final moments together such as who called who and said what, and WHEN it really became obvious there was bad trouble ( long before the eventual A2G MAYDAY calls )… and WHERE Marsh might have really been before he decided to start running BACK to them to die with them.
By the way… just a little over 2 weeks ago ( November 11, 2015 ), Brendan McDonough got to meet former President George W. Bush ( Shrub ) in what looks for all the world like the actual Oval Office in the White House.
He posted the following photo of him, arm in arm with Bush and a big shit-eating grin on his face, on his PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=537126289787567
And Brendan added the following PUBLIC comment to this PUBLICLY POSTED photo…
————————————————————–
Brendan Mcdonough – Photo and Comment posted November 11, 2015
Had the honor of meeting George W Bush today. What an experience and awesome moment to honor my brothers as firemen and keep there memory alive and to honor those who served. Happy Veterans Day to those who served and sacrificed so much. I will never forget.
————————————————————–
Pardon me while I go throw up a little in my mouth again.
And speaking of McDonough and ‘throwing up in my mouth a little’…
As soon as I had wiped my mouth off up above regarding the ‘Me and my buddy President Bush’ photo above… I did a quick ‘Google’ to see if I could find out what the fuck Brendan was even doing on November 11 that put him the proximity of a former President.
No luck so far ( like it’s some kind of ‘secret’ what he was doing there? )…
…but I stumbled across this piece of hot-runny bullshit.
This proves that ( to this day ) the real VICTIM from the Yarnell tragedy is still THE TRUTH.
Just a few days ago… Dan ‘Survival’ Sullivan wrote a comprehensive article with the title…
* HOW TO SURVIVE A WILDFIRE
Brendan is mentioned… but even now… today… this public report about what happened to him and Granite Mountain is TOTAL FICTION.
It is more living proof that ( as Mark Twain said )…
“It’s not what they don’t know that’s scary… it’s what they know fer sure that just ain’t so”.
Dan ‘Survival’ Sullivan – Online
Article Title: How to Survive a Wildfire
Published: November 26, 2015
http://www.survivalsullivan.com/how-to-survive-a-wildfire/?issubscriber=true&source=nl
From the article…
————————————————————————
Prevention is Best
You don’t want to be caught in a wildfire situation. Conditions can change rapidly causing the fire to move more quickly.
This was the case for fire fighter Brendan McDonough, who was on lookout duty while his colleagues battled a wildfire in Arizona in June of 2013. Conditions changed so rapidly that he radioed his team that he was evacuating and they should do the same. His lookout trigger point (a point that, if the fire reaches it, the situation needs to be reevaluated) was ravaged by flames in three minutes. McDonough made it out, but his colleagues, 19 firefighters, all died because they didn’t have time to get out. If these professionals can be caught by rapidly changing conditions, you don’t want to take chances.
————————————————————————
“Brendan radioed his team that he was evacuating and they should do the same.”
“19 firefighters, all died because they didn’t have time to get out.”
Pardon me again… have to run… I think this time it might be actual projectile vomiting coming on and I need to go talk on the big white porcelain phone.
I do agree with WTKTT on that point. Although I doubt in that heavy brush toward Helms they would have made it. (refer to Joy’s photos of the spot they died that very morning and we did tranverse the very area they died early that morning and going was very slow) Once that rounded the north rim and they saw it they definitely had less than four minutes. However if you went to the site you would see they could have gone south or north to find a patch of boulders on either ridge side that had more than a football size of clearing and some boulders that are so large that there are actual caves underneath. The vegetation was nill on the north side and nothing burned in huge areas but to the south was ample room to find protection as well. I ran the 100 yard dash in seconds when a kid in high school–i think 9 sec but anyhow it was fast, and despite the brush I think I could have done either way in less than a minute to get to the boulder field. I believe too much faith is put into those thin blankets–nothing I would want to bother with except for a wind blanked to sleep under.
Reply to Sonny post on November 28, 2015 at 10:23 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I believe too much faith is put into those thin blankets
Wildland Firefighters don’t even PRACTICE ‘drop packs and run’.
The only thing they ‘practice’ ( but still not enough ) is getting into shelters.
By not enough… I mean the evidence is there from Yarnell alone that these men didn’t even have ENOUGH training to either realize ( or remember ) how absolutely essential it is to throw your pack as far away from where you are deploying as possible.
Travis Turbyfill’s father has already stated publicly that he insisted on seeing his own son’s full autopsy AND toxicology reports ( Yes… there really ARE ‘toxicology’ reports for all 19 of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots ).
Travis Turbyfill’s lungs and bloodstream were full of GASOLINE related products when he died.
You’re suppose to “pull your shelter and THROW your pack”.
Not “pull your shelter and DROP your pack”.
You’re supposed to train and train and train and train on this so your own muscle memory knows to “do the right thing” when the time comes.
This was posted below from out of Kyle Dickman’s book:
“Marsh returned full-time to the superintendent position that week, too.
One of the first things he did was recap for the guys what had happened on the Dude Fire. June 26 marked that fatal blaze’s twenty-third anniversary, and many of the environmental factors that had led to that catastrophe were once again aligning over the Southwest.”
Six WFF died on the Dude Fire to the east of Yarnell and north of Payson, just below the Mogollon Rim. So Marsh was keenly aware of the conditions and outcome of the fatal Dude Fire and so was the GMHS on or about June 26, 2013.
And here was the very same fire weather scenario setting up in the SW, particularly in AZ.. So then, the GMHS knew or should have known the potential for explosive growth and fire behavior in the decadent, 48-year old Turbinella (scrub) Oak surrounding Yarnell, especially after witnessing similar explosive fire behavior on the Doce Fire about two weeks prior.
There were far too many explosive fire weather and fire behavior indicators for these WFF to ignore when they engaged the YH Fire. Yet they did! WTF !?
And Hillbilly McDonough in one of his ADOSH interviews confused Fire Weather with Human Factors as the causal factors in the GMHS fatalities. He said something to the effect that ‘this wasn’t the first time a storm had killed someone’ and because of that, ‘they (10 & 18) aren’t working.’ I think he even confused the 1994 South Canyon Fire as well when he noted 14 died from a storm.
They only work when you apply them. But then, you had the attitude that Fire Order #10 (Fight fire safely, having provided for safety first’). Nope, the weather didn’t kill the GMHS although it was a contributing factor. The fire ultimately killed them after the major contributing factor of Human Factors and the steady Drift into Failure.
I meant to say: But then, you had the attitude that ‘Fire Order #10 (Fight fire safely, having provided for safety first’) is Hillbilly, it’s old, and we’re much smarter than that.’ Yeah, right. You guys were so f**king smart that your whole Crew died. A third year Crewmember does NOT develop this attitude on his own. He had to have been coached.
It appears to me that Lucy Goosey was a perennial sweetheart of the Prescott FD, Wildlands Division. In a lot more ways than one. (It wasn’t just the Fire Time Sheets.)
For GMIHC it was a fatal attraction.
Reply to J. Stout post on November 28, 2015 at 9:45 am
>> J. Stout said…
>>
>> It appears to me that Lucy Goosey was a perennial sweetheart of the
>> Prescott FD, Wildlands Division. In a lot more ways than one. (It wasn’t
>> just the Fire Time Sheets.)
>>
>> For GMIHC it was a fatal attraction.
There were only TWO ways that Darrell Willis and Eric Marsh were going to be able to make that City-sponsored Type 1 HS crew survive the budgetary chopping block.
1. Prove that is is MAKING money for the City ( not just breaking even ).
2. Gain such a ‘popular’ reputation that the City Council would be highly
reluctant to ‘shut it down’..
So yea… ‘fatal attraction’ and ‘an accident just waiting to happen’.
You also can’t discount what former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch freely told Kyle Dickman.when Dickman was writing his book ‘On the Burning Edge’.
Former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch ( who only left GM after the Thompson Fire in 2013 and shortly before Yarnell ) was one of author Kyle Dickman’s primary sources for his book.
Kyle Dickman reports in his book ( on page 54 ) that one of the reasons Brandon Bunch applied for a transfer to another crew prior to the 2013 season is because he was sick and tired of Eric Marsh always acting like he had ‘something to prove’.
Here is exactly what Kyle Dickman wrote on his page 54…
“The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the Hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE THEMSELVES.”
There is NOTHING more dangerous than to take a man/woman who wakes up every day thinking they have to PROVE something ( to themselves and/or the world and/or BOTH )… and put them in charge of young men/women who are also then told they are SUPPOSED to ‘follow this person’s orders’.
One of the “Lessons Learned’ can/should be to make sure and ‘watch out’ for those personality types and make sure they never have that kind of authority over others.
Extra ‘Watchout Order’ number 1…
1. Death from above.
WTKTT,
Watchout #13 has been around with a lot of us WFF since 1985:
OVERHEAD
TREES, SNAGS, WIDOWMAKERS, HAZARD TREES
ROCKS and OTHER GRAVITY HAZARDS
LIGHTNING
AIRCRAFT
AERIAL IGNITION
Whoa now!
WATCHOUT 19!
WTF!
WTKTT,
It’s hard to say, but it’s as if their Bad Decision With a Prior Good Outcome on the ‘Nevada Fire’ – the one brought up during the Squad Boss position interviews, might have come into play that day.
They admitted that the fire basically snuck up on them (NO LOOKOUT) and they had to ‘quickly fire out a Safety Zone around themselves, and it was okay, because ‘it all worked out..’ And this May have been alluded to by Willis during his July 2013 Fatality Site News Conference when he said it was fairly common for WFF Crews to do such things, responding to a question by NYT Fernanda Santos.
Possibly also resorting to what one is most familiar with during stressful, near death times. The GMHS IMHO had been on a steady Drift Into Failure since that time…….
Question: Paul Musser had been the Superintendent of the Flagstaff Hotshots for 15 years… and there he was on the radio at 3:42 PM asking Marsh if he was still “committed to ridge”.
Musser ‘danced’ around the questioning from ADOSH as to whether he actually ever ASKED Marsh to do anything at all. He very carefully worded his (supposed) conversation to Marsh to make it sound like he actually never did. That he was ‘just checking to see what their availablity was’.
Give Marsh’s documented eagerness to ‘prove things’… do you think the fact that this ‘availability check’ WAS coming from a 15-year veteran Hotshot Supt. who was still VERY much connected to the Arizona ‘fire scene’ had a lot to do with his decision making?
I mean… do you think that Marsh himself thought that if he REFUSED any assignment from this Musser guy… that the word was gonna get out… and that there might even be some pink helmets stuck on the GM Crew Carriers in the near future?
I just don’t think the fact that the man who seems to have come the closest ( in the evidence record ) to being the one to have probably ASKED Marsh to ‘come down’ was, himself, a 15 year veteran Arizona area Hotshot Superintendent has ever been discussed much.
WTKTT,
Nope, I don’t think Musser’s request based on his status or whatever had anything to do with Marsh’s decision to bring the GMHS down from their SZ.
Musser’s request was based on Yarnell STSP Cordes’ inquiry on the GMHS status to help.
Marsh did NOT let any of us influence him one way or the other; he was on a steady Drift Into Failure by always trying to ‘prove’ something.
He had likely made up his mind hours before and persisted in pressing Steed to bring the Crew down even though he was totally uncomfortable with it.
Moreover, NO overhead can MAKE you do any assignment, however, once you decide to accept the assignment, then you have
‘ACCEPTED THE RISK’ as the attorneys say.
Marsh was NOT intimidated or influenced by Musser’s request. Marsh was on the Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes role. It always worked in the past, so ………..
Thank you.
My understanding of the Dude fire was that it too had a wind and weather warning change and was known but not properly observed
Sonny,
The Dude Fire had all kinds of problems on June 26, 1990. There was NO weather forecast of winds, there was really NO designated Lookout(s) warning any of us of the impending weather (Thunderstorms with imminent downdrafts), very poor communications, and more due to the Transition Period between the Type I and the Type II IMT’s.
The Transition was to occur at 1300, classic SW Fire transitions at the time, with the Type II IMT not wanting to relinquish control of the fire to the Type I IMT.
Tony Sciacca, the Assistant Foreman of the Prescott Hot Shots at the time noted the smoke being pushed down to the ground level (“like in a horror movie”) when the downdrafts were imminent. He had experienced this weather phenomenon on a previous fire and just knew the downdrafts were upon them. So, he notified the other Crews performing a firing operation in Walk Moore Canyon, that Prescott HS were pulling out and they should too. As predicted, the downdrafts came with a vengeance shortly thereafter, trapping the non-responsive Perryville Prison Type II Inmate Crew.
Surprisingly, this story was relayed to students at one of the AZ Wildfire Academies in Prescott at briefing one morning, and one of the firefighters present – Darby Starr from Sun City West FD – acknowledged that this warning anecdote saved his and others’ lives near The Shrine on June 30, 2013.
“Sun City West Fire District employee Darby Starr wins national honor Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 6:05 PM
Sun City West firefighter Darby Starr accepts the VFW’s National Firefighter of the Year award from Post 10695 Cmdr. Jim Katzenberger at the SCW Fire District administration building.
Sun City West firefighter Darby Starr accepts the VFW’s National Firefighter of the Year award from Post 10695 Cmdr. Jim Katzenberger at the SCW Fire District administration building.
By Jeff Grant, DAILY NEWS-SUN Posted: Friday, July 18, 2014 7:42 am | Updated: 9:30 am, Fri Jul 18, 2014. –
The spritz of rain was the final warning sign for Darby Starr.
As the Fire District of Sun City West’s engine boss for wildlands fire assignments, Starr and three colleagues — one each from Sun City West, Peoria and Glendale — had seen the late-afternoon winds become terribly erratic as they helped fight the Yarnell Hill blaze on June 30, 2013. Starr noticed what seemed to be fire moving in the opposite direction of where it had been headed all day. He even thought he heard some claps of thunder.
Then came the spritz of rain.
“As soon as I felt that rain, that’s when I decided we needed to pull out,” he said.
It was a decision colleagues believe prevented further loss of firefighter lives in the blaze that claimed 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in the deadliest day for U.S. Forest Service firefighting since 1933.
It also earned Starr, 42, the Veterans of Foreign Wars’ National Firefighter of the Year Award, one of the VFW’s highest honors bestowed on public safety and public service workers throughout America. The VFW also recognizes police, paramedics and teachers each year, said Post 10695 Commander Jim Katzenberger following a ceremony Thursday honoring Starr at Sun City West Fire District headquarters.
“These people directly serve our communities, and keep us safe and sound. They’re the backbones who hold our country together,” Katzenberger said.
Starr, fellow Sun City West firefighter Coy Boggler and two others — one each from Peoria and Glendale — were part of a 10-member task force called to Yarnell Hill early the morning of June 29, 2013, to join other firefighters from throughout the state, including the Granite Hill team and the Blue Ridge Hotshots, fighting the blaze.
Initially, the team thought it would be there for two days at most. Then, conditions deteriorated rapidly the afternoon of June 30. The unpredictable winds, intense heat and shift in fire movement left the Granite Mountain team with nowhere to go but their deployed fire shelters, where they were overrun by the flames and heat.
Assigned to cut fireline between homes and the flames, the Brush 103 crew worked on, unaware at first of the Granite Mountain team’s plight but with Starr taking note of conditions and becoming increasingly concerned for the men’s safety.
“I was at the front of the line, right against this hill. It was about 200 feet high. I kept watching fire that seemed to be moving in the opposite direction it had been moving all day. I set a ‘trigger point,’ which was when the fire topped the hill, it was time to go. Shortly after that, I heard thunder. I got that spritz in the face, I turned around, looked at the hill, and fire was over the hill. I told my guys, ‘Let’s go.’”
As he led the team away from the scene along a planned escape route to a safety zone, the veteran of 20 years wildlands firefighting recalled conditions he had never seen.
“I’d never experienced that kind of fire heat. I’d never seen fire heat so violent. It was astonishing to see exactly how violent this could be and the rate it was moving at. Even in our safety zone, we were crouching behind our truck because of the heat waves we were getting.”
Another veteran Sun City West firefighter and paramedic, Coy Boggler, recalled his team’s leader’s calm under “immense pressure,” instructing the crew to remain together as it made its way through dense brush toward the truck.
“The fire and smoke bore down on us, creating an incredibly tense trek. Captain Starr remained calm and collected. Had Captain Starr not ordered our expedited retreat to the truck, I believe we may have been trapped and would have to deploy our shelters,” Boggler stated in a written report.
“Both of the other two firefighters and myself feel Captain Starr prevented a second tragedy.”
It was not until the next morning that the Brush 103 crew would learn officially that their colleagues from Granite Mountain had perished, although Starr said a lack of information on their status during the tense late-afternoon hours June 30 raised suspicions that something had gone wrong.
Starr credited experience and training for his decision-making, including a story from a wildfire academy earlier last year, part of the Sun City West’s year-round wildlands-firefighter training.
As the academy director addressed his class, he discussed June 1990’s Dude Fire near Payson, which killed six firefighters and until Yarnell Hill had stood as the worst loss of firefighter life in Arizona wildlands firefighting history.
“He was talking about the weather conditions he was experiencing, the fire behavior he was seeing. He mentioned he got spritzed with rain, and that was just strange enough for him to turn around and go back the other direction. He had been headed right for the guys who were burned over,” Starr recalled. “At the Yarnell Hill fire, I started seeing that strange fire behavior.”
SCW Assistant Fire Chief Tim Van Scoter, another veteran wildlands firefighter, said Starr’s actions reflect on his leadership and recognize the kind of work done by many district members throughout the year.
“Firefighters don’t look for this recognition. It’s nice when it comes. That’s not why they did what they did that day. They didn’t even know it was going to be submitted.”
“I’m very honored,” said Starr. “We were just doing our job. I don’t feel like I did anything extraordinary. But to be recognized by my friends, my co-workers and the VFW is an honor,” he said.
An organization formed 115 years ago to provide social, financial and emotional care to veterans returning from combat, the VFW includes 10,000 posts throughout the world. Each nominates an individual for the organization’s annual awards. Recipients are selected after careful review in a several-step process, said Katzenberger.”
This was posted below from out of Kyle Dickman’s book:
“Marsh returned full-time to the superintendent position that week, too.
One of the first things he did was recap for the guys what had happened on the Dude Fire. June 26 marked that fatal blaze’s twenty-third anniversary, and many of the environmental factors that had led to that catastrophe were once again aligning over the Southwest.”
Six WFF died on the Dude Fire to the east of Yarnell and north of Payson, just below the Mogollon Rim. So Marsh was keenly aware of the conditions and outcome of the fatal Dude Fire and so was the GMHS on or about June 26, 2013.
And here was the very same fire weather scenario setting up in the SW, particularly in AZ.. So then, the GMHS knew or should have known the potential for explosive growth and fire behavior in the decadent, 48-year old Turbinella (scrub) Oak surrounding Yarnell, especially after witnessing similar explosive fire behavior on the Doce Fire about two weeks prior.
There were far too many explosive fire weather and fire behavior indicators for these WFF to ignore when they engaged the YH Fire. Yet they did! WTF !?
**
** TWISP DOPPLER RADAR LOOPS FOR AUGUST 18 AND AUGUST 19, 2015.
The recently released ‘Twisp River Fire Fatalities and Entrapment’ report for the US Forestry made absolutely NO attempt to explain one of the most fundamental things for any fire investigation.
What CAUSED the fire?
Here is all that report had to say about how the fire ‘started’…
From PDF page 7 of the 25 page report, when they finally began their ‘narrative’…
————————————————————————————-
Twisp River Fire, August 19, 2015
It was fire season near Twisp, Washington, and August 19, 2015 was a day much like those that preceded it. It was incredibly hot and dry. Experts in climate, weather, and fuels classified the area as being in “extreme drought.” The local interagency dispatch centers were very busy. There were several very large fires in the area (Figure 1), as well as many small fires that resulted from earlier lightning storms. The Twisp River Fire (Twisp) started about five miles west of the town of Twisp. About 20 homes were scattered throughout the area near where the fire started.
————————————————————————————-
That’s all the US Forestry CRAP ( Coordinated Response Accident Protocol ) team had to say about the START of the fire even after 3 full months of investigation.
If their generic mention of the ‘several small fires that resulted from lightning storms’ was meant to suggest that might have been what caused the Twisp fire… there is no public evidence to support that and even after 3 months of investigation… they, themselves, offer none.
** SPOKANE, WASHINGTON DOPPLER RADAR ARCHIVES
The following is a direct link to a doppler radar history loop for August 18, 2015, the day BEFORE the Twisp tragedy.
These doppler radar archives are from a Spokane, Washington radar site which covered the Twisp are to the west of Spokane.
The town of Twisp is clearly labeled on the background map in the upper left corner, just to the left of ‘Omak’.
This doppler radar loop covers the time period from midnight the previous day ( August 17, 2015 ) through midnight on August 18, 2015.
http://www.wunderground.com/weather-radar/united-states/wa/spokane/otx/history/?date=2015-08-18
There were absolutely no storms visible to radar anywhere near the town of ‘Twisp’ for that 24 hour period leading up to midnight August 18, 2013.
This is CONTINUED in the next ‘Reply’ in order to observe the ‘one link per post’ rule…
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continued from above )…
Moving ahead to the NEXT 24 hour period… same story…
Doppler radar loop shows absolutely no ‘storms’ visible to radar in the Twisp, WA area for the next 24 hour period from midnight on the night of August 18, 2015 through midnight on August 19, 2015.
That next sequential 24 hour radar look is viewable with this link…
http://www.wunderground.com/weather-radar/united-states/wa/spokane/otx/history/?date=2015-08-19
The only precipitation echoes ( but still not storm echoes ) showing anywhere near Twisp in this next sequential 24 hour loop come late in the night on August 19, 2015 ( around 10:00 to 11:00 PM ), but even those small radar echoes were only around the town of ‘Omak’… which is 30 miles to the east of Twisp.
Continued next ‘Reply’…
** SEATTLE-TACOMA RADAR HISTORY
These doppler radar archives are from a Seattle-Tacoma site.
Same deal as above… but in these doppler radar loops the town of ‘Twisp’ is clearly labeled towards the RIGHT side of the map.
Seattle-Tacoma radar loop from…
Midnight on August 17, 2015 to midnight on August 18, 2015…
http://www.wunderground.com/weather-radar/united-states/wa/seattle-tacoma/atx/history/?date=2015-08-18
Seattle-Tacoma radar loop from…
Midnight on August 18, 2015 to midnight on August 19, 2015…
http://www.wunderground.com/weather-radar/united-states/wa/seattle-tacoma/atx/history/?date=2015-08-19
Just like the radar loops form the Spokane site… These Seattle-Tacoma radar loops show absolutely NO ‘storms’ anywhere near the ‘Twisp’ area for the 36 hours leading up to the first reports of the ‘Twisp fire’ on Twisp River Road around NOON on Wednesday, August 19, 2015.
See the next ‘Reply’ for actual LIGHTNING STRIKE ( or lack thereof ) data…
WTKTT,
There’s a strong possibility according to local WFF that it’s possible to have been caused by a downed power line. You’d have to search the CRAP maps or Google Earth to locate the power lines in the area and the Point of Origin.
There was no lightning, however, there was a Thermal Trough and strong, gusty winds forecast according to the NOAA Storm Prediction Center Fire WX Outlook archive for 0600 AM, CDT, August 19 to 0600 AM, CDT August 20, 2015. The following link is a recorded presentation titled “Explosive Wildfire Growth and the West Coast Thermal Trough.”
https://ams.confex.com/ams/9FIRE/webprogram/Paper192182.html
Try this NOAA SPC Fire Weather Outlook link.
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/products/fire_wx/2015/150818_1641_fwdy2_print.html
In English, the above Fire Weather Outlook was ISSUED on Tuesday at 1141 AM CDT, August 18, 2015.
However, it is VALID for the period 191200Z – 201200Z.
In English, this period is VALID from 0600, August 19 to 0600, August 20, 2015.
Weather Forecasts 101
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
November 27, 2015 at 9:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> In English, the above Fire Weather Outlook was
>> ISSUED on Tuesday at 1141 AM CDT, August 18, 2015.
>> However, it is VALID for the period 191200Z – 201200Z.
>>
>> In English, this period is VALID from 0600,
>> August 19 to 0600, August 20, 2015.
Great links, RTS. Thank you.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Weather Forecasts 101
Yes… and also more like ‘Wildland Firefighting 101’
The Ten Standard Watch Outs…
( See how many FAILS are on this list for Twisp )…
———————————————–
1) Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
2) Know what your fire is doing at all times.
3) Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
4) Identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known.
5) Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
6) Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
7) Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces.
8) Give clear instructions and insure they are understood.
9) Maintain control of your forces at all times.
10) Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first.
———————————————
The 18 Watchouts Situations
———————————————
4) Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
7) No communication link with crewmembers/supervisors.
8) Constructing line without safe anchor point.
9) Building fireline downhill with FIRE BELOW.
10) Attempting frontal assault on fire.
11) Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
12) Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
13) On a HILLSIDE where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
15) Wind increases and/or changes direction.
16) Getting frequent spot fires across line.
17) Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
—————————————————-
As long as we’re adding good reference links to this thread… here’s another one.
As the weather advisories predicted… so did the ACTUAL weather reports form the day BEFORE the tragedy…
What happened with the weather and the wind speed/direction change in Twisp on Wednesday, August 19, was pretty much a carbon copy of what happened at almost the exact same TIME on the DAY BEFORE.
* TWISP WIND SPEED / DIRECTION CHANGE
* RECORDED THE DAY BEFORE THE TRAGEDY
Historical Weather Data for Twisp ( Zipcode 98856 )…
August 18, 2015 ( The day BEFORE the tragedy )…
Click this link to see the full weather data for Twisp for August 18, 2015…
http://www.wunderground.com./history/airport/KOMK/2015/8/18/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Twisp&req_state=WA&req_statename=Washington&reqdb.zip=98856&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999
About halfway down the page are some Graphs… two of which show ‘Wind Speed’ and ‘Wind Direction’ changes for the 24 hour period from midnight on August 17 through midnight on August 18.
At exactly 1:00 PM on the day BEFORE the tragedy there was a significant change in Wind Speed AND Direction right around 1:00 PM, and the increased Wind Speed continued for the rest of the afternoon.
At 1:00 PM in Twisp, the day BEFORE the tragedy, the Wind Speed increased from an average all morning of 8-10 mph ( with no gusting ) to a new base wind speed of about 20 mph with GUSTS the rest of the afternoon upwards of 26 to 30 mph and it didn’t ‘calm down’ again until around 8:53 PM.
NOTE: On the charts on that page… the ‘wind gusts’ recorded show up as the little black ‘dots’ above the wind speed baseline.
At 11:53 AM ( just before NOON ) the Wind was blowing to the NORTH at 11.5 mph with gusts already emerging up to 24.2 mph whereas there had been no ‘gusting’ prior to NOON on the 18th
Just one hour later… at 12:53 PM… the Wind direction had suddenly CHANGED from the ‘due north’ direction it had been blowing all morning and was suddenly ( within the course of 1 hour ) blowing directly to the NNE and the ‘gusting’ was now approaching 29.9 (30) mph.
Sound familiar?
That’s pretty much exactly what happened ( AGAIN )… the NEXT day… only just slightly later… and 3 firefighters would die because someone had sent them ABOVE an active, dynamic fireline, with large pockets of volatile, unburned fuel BETWEEN them and the active fire, without anticipating the same wind/direction changes as the very day before.
——————————————————–
4) Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
7) No communication link with crewmembers/supervisors.
8) Constructing line without safe anchor point.
9) Building fireline downhill with FIRE BELOW.
10) Attempting frontal assault on fire.
11) Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
——————————————————
—————————————-
1) Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
2) Know what your fire is doing at all times.
3) Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
4) Identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known.
5) Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
——————————————————–
Meteorologist Cliff Mass was spot on in his blog on the Twisp Canyon Fire weather when he concluded with this:”I BELIEVE WINDSHIFT / WIND ACCELERATION THAT OCCURRED THAT WED. AFTERNOON WAS ENTIRELY PREDICTABLE. IT WAS NOT RANDOM, It WAS NOT EXTREME OR A NEW NORMAL. …”
Fire Order No. 1 “Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.”
Fire Order No. 3 “Base all actions on current and expected fire behavior.”
From the post titled: “Was the Fatal Wildfire near Twisp, Washington Predictable?” Cliff Mass Weather Blog; Sunday, August 23, 2015
http://cliff mass.blogspot.com/2015/08/was-wildfire-evolution-that-killed.html?m=1
Great link, RTS… thank you.
But you seemed to have left a SPACE in the URL that makes it unclickable here.
This link goes right to it…
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2015/08/was-wildfire-evolution-that-killed.html?m=1
And just a few ‘cuts’ from the BLOG itself, which was expertly written just 4 days after the tragedy in Twisp…
NOTE: The only thing he is WRONG about is that he ( like others ) was still under the impression just 4 days after the tragedy that there must have been some component of ‘saving lives’ involved to explain what the fuck those men were doing up there ABOVE the fire with all that unburned fuel between them and the active fireline.
That is NOT the case. There is NO evidence that there was anything up on Woods Canyon Road but empty piles of lumber, drywall and shingles.
———————————————-
The Cliff Mass Weather Blog
This blog provides updated forecasts and comments on current weather or other topics.
Sunday, August 23, 2015
Was the Fatal Wildfire near Twisp, Washington Predictable?
I have hesitated to write this blog, considering the sensitivity of the issue: three brave wildland firefighers died trying to save lives and property.
But fires are still burning and others have their lives on the line, so I feel impelled to write this.
Many wildland firefighter deaths have resulted from inattention to meteorological data and forecasts. A tragic example is the Yarnell, Arizona fire in which radar showed developing thunderstorms that led to strong outflow winds that produced tragic results.
The firefighters should have been pulled out, something borne out by subsequent analysis (see my previous blog on this).
As I will describe below, I believe that the meteorological guidance for the Twisp fire situation was clear: all firefighters should have been warned/pulled back because of the imminent threat of rapidly increasing winds accompanied by a change of direction. I believe media claims of “unpredictable” winds are unfounded.
( Article continues… and is worth reading )…
———————————————-
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
November 27, 2015 at 9:19 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There’s a strong possibility according to local WFF that
>> it’s possible to have been caused by a downed power line.
>> You’d have to search the CRAP maps or Google Earth to
>> locate the power lines in the area and the Point of Origin.
Much simpler than that.
The photograph at the TOP of this recently released CRAP report is, in fact, a photo of the supposed ‘origin spot’ of the Twisp / Woods Canyon Road fire.
The idiots put no caption at all on this photo and also gave no indication of what TIME this photo was taken… but that’s exactly what it is.
Look at the TOP of the photo.
Clearly visible POWER LINES feeding DIRECTLY into what appears to be the CENTER of the origin of the fire… complete with lots of trees that looked like they hadn’t been trimmed since the power lines were installed.
And it WAS ‘gusting’ the day before ( see historic data above ) exactly like it was going to on the 19th when those 3 FFs would die.
Here again is a direct link to this recent CRAP ‘summary’ report.
PHOTO showing POWER LINES is the very first one at the TOP of the document…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=77159beb-18bd-bdbc-57ad-12fe11d38cd2&forceDialog=0
Followup…
** EXACT POWER POLE LOCATION
Whoever took that photograph of the ‘origin area’ for the Twisp / Woods Canyon Road fire that appears at the very TOP of that recently released CRAP team ‘summary’ report was standing exactly HERE when they took that photograph…
48.380624, -120.244554
They were facing due north when the photograph was taken.
The POWER POLE that those POWER LINES that are clearly visible in this photograph were connecting to is being ‘hidden’ by that large ( unburned ) tree on the left side of the photograph.
Yes… the one with the FLAMES still burning at the base of it.
That POWER POLE ( just to the west of that shed and behind the tree ) is clearly visible as a SHADOW in the ground in either Google Earth or Google maps… as are the other power poles that then extended the ‘grid’ up to the other homes up there on Woods Canyon Road.
Location of Fire Start.
A good Fire investigator can back track a fire to the Point of origin
to less than a 2 foot area in then to the source of ignition.
I was trained to do that on the Angeles and did a number of investigations.
There should have been no reason to not find the point of origin. Lighting power line or cigarette. Even a flip you Bick lighter will leave a burn pattern at the source along with foot prints.
Agree. Even if there was no actual ‘downed power line’ it should have been possible to determine if either a transformer explosion/malfunction ( with SPARKS ) or a failure to properly maintain trees away from the power line and ‘limb strikes’ ( also with associated SPARKS ) was the actual cause of this fire.
Likewise… if there was NO evidence of arson… NO evidence of accelerants… and NO evidence of any kind of ‘escaped burn pile’… I would expect ANY investigation report to come out and say that.
What we are, of course, discovering here as we look at this US Forestry CRAP team report is that ( as suspected ) it isn’t an attempt to ‘investigate’ anything.
That’s why I said below that if US Forestry is just going to continue with these bullshit ‘psuedo-investigations’… I wish they would just ‘not even bother’ and just STOP IT and STOP wasting taxpayer dollars.
It really is a total waste and ‘mis-use’ of public money.
Let people who KNOW how to investigate accidents investigate the accidents… fer chrissakes.
Awesome sleuthing, both of you, WTKTT and Robert the Second!! Thank you for this.
Speaking of weather, this really jumped out at me:
“Some resources on the fire had access to the general fire zone forecast read over the radio that morning. Several firefighters were reassigned from other fires in the area where they had received a more locally specific fire weather forecast for the Chelan Complex, which was located about 40 miles away from Twisp. This localized forecast predicted a wind shift between 3 and 5 p.m. The ICs did not have access to this forecast. Other firefighters who had that information may have discounted the weather information based on their individual experience with perceived weather forecast inaccuracies in that area.”
I just don’t even know what to make of this. Or where to begin with it.
There were THREE Incident Commanders taking charge of the fire, and NONE of them had, apparently, either requested or obtained a weather forecast from ANYWHERE, including one that would have most likely indicated that there would MOST LIKELY be that wind-shift??
Disregarding the weather forecasting was, imho, a HUGE problem on the Yarnell Fire.
This makes me wonder:
Is it common practice to not take weather forecasting seriously while managing a wildfire?
Or is what happened on Twisp (and Yarnell) some kind of an aberration?
Just asking for a friend (my late father, a meteorologist).
And, I have to say, even tho it’s way beyond my bedtime, I am wondering why, if a wind-driven downed power-line was the ignition-point of the Twisp River Wildfire, didn’t they just say that in the ‘Status Report? Could it be related to this?
——————————————
Wednesday, October 28, 2015
Jury: Utilities 95% to blame for Las Conchas Fire
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jury-utilities-to-blame-for-las-conchas-fire/article_d2883506-7ac1-51ff-8e94-653c704434d7.html
“A jury decided Wednesday that two utility companies hold most of the liability in one of the largest wildfires in New Mexico’s recorded history.
Jurors gave their verdict in Bernalillo following a weekslong trial that centered on whether Jemez Mountains Electric Cooperative and Tri-State Generation and Transmission Inc. did enough to prevent the Las Conchas Fire in 2011.
The blazed started when an aspen tree fell onto power lines that stretched through national forest land in the Jemez Mountains.
The fire raced across the southern edge of the mountain range, charring more than 240 square miles. It destroyed dozens of homes, threatened Los Alamos National Laboratory and blackened nearly two-thirds of Bandelier National Monument, along with areas held sacred by the tribes.”
Snip
“Jurors in Sandoval County District Court found the cooperative was 75 percent negligent for the wildfire, Tri-State 20 percent and the U.S. Forest Service 5 percent. Possible damage amounts will be determined at a later trial.”
Marti,
I think you have a good point with the Las Conchas ruling.
Here’s a link to the University of Wyoming upper air soundings archive for Spokane, WA for 12Z (0600) on August 19, 2015.
http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/sounding?region=naconf&TYPE=GIF%3ASKEWT&YEAR=2015&MONTH=08&FROM=1912&TO=1912&STNM=72786
You can click on the ‘Description of the sounding indices’ for more detailed info.
The two vertical lines are Temperature on the right and Dew Point on the left. The further apart they are, the drier the air. There was a large pocket of dry air about mid atmosphere (500 mb – 18,000 ft).
The left column numbers are the pressure altitudes, e.g. 850mb = about 5,000 feet and 300mb is the jet stream, about 30,loo feet. The right column indicates wind direction and speed. The lowest wind indicator is a north wind at 10 knots; the next one up is a west wind at 5 knots. Note how the winds increase to around 15 to 35 knots around the 500mb range. So, dry and windy aloft the morning of the Twisp Canyon Fire. Setting up!
Here’s the Spokane, WA sounding for 00Z (1800) August 19, 2015 indicating moderately dry air near the surface up to about 700mb (10,000 feet) and a subsidence inversion. Winds are more northerly at this time and a bit lighter.
http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/sounding?region=naconf&TYPE=GIF%3ASKEWT&YEAR=2015&MONTH=08&FROM=1900&TO=1900&STNM=72786
I just remembered to check out the Text List for the numerical observations.
The Relative Humidity (RH) in the 500mb (18,000 feet) range was an incredibly dry 3% – incredibly dry!
http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/sounding?region=naconf&TYPE=TEXT%3ALIST&YEAR=2015&MONTH=08&FROM=1912&TO=1912&STNM=72786
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 28, 2015 at 1:58 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> And, I have to say, even tho it’s way beyond
>> my bedtime, I am wondering why, if a
>> wind-driven downed power-line was the
>> ignition-point of the Twisp River Wildfire,
>> didn’t they just say that in the ‘Status Report?
>>
>> Could it be related to this?
Of course it is ‘related to this’ ( lawsuit ).
What would be even MORE ‘actionable’ than a ‘downed power line’ would be proof that there was no ‘downed power line’ at all… and the fire started as a result of absolute negligence on the part of the Okanogan County Electric Cooperative responsible for trimming the trees around their own power lines in order to prevent ‘limb strikes’.
A ‘limb strike’ ( the wind blowing a non-trimmed tree limb against the lines ) can produce a SHOWER of SPARKS. More than enough to start a fire on the ground in the kind of extreme fire conditions present in Twisp that fateful week.
A Transformer explosion can also produce the same ‘shower of sparks’ it would take to kick off a good wildfire.
So there didn’t necessarily have to be any kind of obvious ‘downed power line’ in order to discover that the fire was started with an event related to the power lines.
Any investigators worth their salt would have been able to determine this.
Maybe the CRAP people did… and they have DECIDED to not mention it.
Only question there would be whether it was because the Okanogan County Electric Cooperative BEGGED them to not mention anything about the cause of the fire in their report… or they did it the good-old-fashioned American-way.
Maybe they simply PAID them ( the investigators ) to not say anything.
Bottom line here is that we are simply discovering ( as we suspected we would ) that this U.S. Forestry ‘investigation’ was no ‘investigation’ at all.
I’m still counting on OSHA to tell us what REALLY happened there in Twisp.
Marti,
You asked: “Is it common practice to not take weather forecasting seriously while managing a wildfire?”
I would say no, it’s not a common practice. It appears to be only to those that have been burned, sheltered, and/or died, e.g. Yarnell, Valley, and Twisp Canyon Fires for starters.
Weather ALWAYS determines fire behavior – always.
And it’s our first Fire Order.
Thank you for this.
And, given all the above, would you agree with me that what appears to me to be a real negligence on the part of the Incident Commanders on the Twisp River Fire to have gotten/paid attention to weather forecasts that would have indicated a wind-shift coming up, as they were taking control of the fire, would have been, all things considered, a breach of their responsibility vis a vis the 10/18?
It’s pretty clear that the crews that went to work on the left flank were doing what needed to be done.
But sending those crews up into that canyon on the road, without getting/paying attention to a forecast indicating the possibility/probability of the fire changing direction seems to me to have been pretty negligent.
But maybe I’m expecting too much. Or maybe everybody is.
What should we be “expecting” when it comes to managing wildfires in these days of the Wildland Urban Interface Zone?
Marti,
Yes I agree with you, in part, that there was negligence on the part of the IC’s to send resources into the canyon knowing the predicted weather. It is still up to the WFF themselves to accept or not accept the assignment based on the WFF Rules.
What can we expect from ‘Managing wildfires in the WUI?
In my view, WFF, especially those that are Municipal/Structure/Wildland, are much more likely to take more risks in those WUI situations. It’s up to landowners to due their due diligence in Firewising their structures. Let the fire burn through the WUI, then go in and deal with the fire then. A structure is a tree with a door.
Bottom line, we are likely to experience more of these incidents until and unless we change our attitudes regarding structures.
**
** OKANOGAN COUNTY LIGHTNING STRIKE DATA FROM NOAA DATABASE
The following URL searches the NOAA’s ( National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration ) Database at the NCDC ( National Climatic Data Center ) for ANY detected lightning strikes in all of Okanogan County, Washington, from August 17, 2015 through August 20, 2015 ( a 4 day period that covers the start of the Twisp fire )…
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/stormevents/listevents.jsp?eventType=%28C%29+Lightning&beginDate_mm=08&beginDate_dd=17&beginDate_yyyy=2015&endDate_mm=08&endDate_dd=20&endDate_yyyy=2015&county=OKANOGAN%3A47&hailfilter=0.00&tornfilter=0&windfilter=000&sort=DT&submitbutton=Search&statefips=53%2CWASHINGTON
Query results…
———————————————————————————————
NOAA – National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
NCDC – National Climatic Data Center
Storm Events Database
Search Results for Okanogan County, Washington
Event Types: Lightning
0 events were reported between 08/17/2015 and 08/20/2015 (4 days)
———————————————————————————————-
Zero. Zip. Nada.
Absolutely NO ‘lightning strikes’ detected that could have started the Twisp fire.
We naje the best of our situation as we go along. Hospitals arenot my thing but having heaart attacks are not either. My room nate is aa retired investaigator who was in business with a retired black baggger FBI agent. I discussed some with him of the 19 gmhs deaths and how I thought the FBI ought to get involved. conssidering the many discrepancies shown by reputable people on this site and what was called and investigative reporta given by various agencies of the state. /////////////The reports are cursory at best and have proven to be narratives friday aligned with the no blame theorry. Yet there are sucha things as photos of quads at the fire on the Fire FridAY Purported to be in possession of reputable people, evidence if record destruction by certaain persons of interestt. evidence of theft of tax payer money and on and on available to study these pages allowed by JD. Some witnesses havw been threaTEBED TO KOOSE THEIR JOB IF THEY DO NOT KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT AND ON AND SO ON. fORGIVE the bad english heree–believe me I can write well annd have been published but lbeing some ill and with an old fashioned thing in the dark I beg your indulgence.
His answer–yes they would bu it would take some loved ones to sstart seriously reqquesting they do that. I do not know who among them would though. He said tat is true ssince many just want to happily grab their payoff check and beyond that could care less about knowing the actual facts of the case. Too many sekk out for their cash cow while those young men cry out from their graaves for all the truth to be reveaaled.
Glad to hear you are still on the sunny side of the turf…
Hang in there, you old Codger, we can’t resolve this without you…
**
** WHO ACTUALLY ‘FILLED OUT’ THE GM JUNE 28 ‘WEST SPRUCE’ TIMESHEET
** AND THE GM JUNE 29 ‘MOUNT JOSH’ TIMESHEET?
**
** BOTH WERE ‘FILLED OUT’ BY THE SAME PERSON… BUT WHO?
I finally got around to doing a ‘handwriting comparison’ between some known handwriting samples in the public evidence record and these two Granite Mountain TIMESHEETS for June 28 and June 29.
The June 29 ‘Mount Josh’ timesheet is the one that shows the entire GM crew ‘on the clock’ earning overtime until 10:30 PM on Saturday, June 29, 2013 when there is lots of other evidence in the public record that they were doing no such thing.
Things to note about these actual photo-copies of the handwritten Granite Mountain CRTs ( Crew Time Reports ) for June 28 and June 29…
1. They were BOTH obviously hand-written by the SAME PERSON.
2. This one is weird. They both actually also appear to have been SIGNED by the same person in the ‘OFFICER-IN-CHARGE’ space on both forms… even though the ‘TITLE-OF-OFFICER-IN-CHARGE’ space on both forms contains TWO different TITLES.
On the June 28 ‘West Spruce’ timesheet… TITLE is ‘AFMO’ ( Assistant Fire Management Officer )
On the June 29 ‘Mount Josh ‘ timesheet’… TITLE is TFLD(t)’. ( Task Force Leader Trainee )
The samples of Eric Marsh’s, Jesse Steed’s and Darrell Willis’ handwriting used to compare to both the June 28 and June 29 CTR ( Crew Time Report ) documents are in the ADOSH public evidence folder…
Folder: / ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation / City of Prescott Fire — GMHS
Direct link to that online folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABOStla3oytVAZisTxzqiVfa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS?dl=0
** SAMPLE OF ERIC MARSH’S HANDWRITING…
NOTE: ADOSH requested ( and received ) a full copy of Eric Marsh’s personnel file including his handwritten ‘self-evaluations’… but the better/clearer examples of Marsh’s handwriting are in Marsh’s ‘Unit Logs’ that ADOSH also requested and received from the City of Prescott.
Those copies of some of Eric’s handwritten ‘Unit Logs’ are in this document…
Filename: “Erics unit logs (3).pdf”
There are MANY places in this document where we see Eric Marsh ‘block writing’ the name “Granite Mountain” just as is written at the top of the CTR ( Crew Time Reports ) for June 28 and June 29.
It’s pretty safe to say there is ‘no match’ there between the two.
** SAMPLE OF JESSE STEED’S HANDWRITING…
NOTE: ADOSH did not request the full personnel file for Jesse Steed. They only asked for Marsh’s. But there is a copy of the ‘Granite Mountain 2013 Certification’ document that was signed by Jesse Steed after he was promoted to Superintendent following Marsh’s bike accident. Eric Marsh had been refusing to sign this ‘Certification’ document and as soon as Marsh had his accident, was taken ‘off duty’ for medical leave, and Jesse Steed became the ‘Acting Superintendent’… Darrell Willis then quickly got Jesse Steed to sign this document that Marsh had been refusing to sign.
It contains a clear copy of Jesse Steed’s signature and at least a fair idea of what his handwriting ‘looked like’…
Filename: “Appendix C 2013 – signed.pdf”
There is actually a ‘chance’ that there is a MATCH here between this example of Jesse’s handwriting and the handwriting of whoever was filling out BOTH of those Granite Mountain June 28 and 29 Crew Time Reports.
Especially on the letters ‘e’ and ‘t’.
But it’s hard to say for sure because ( unlike the samples for Marsh and Willis ) Jesse is not ‘block printing’ in the sample. It’s just a sample of the way he does his ‘signature’ and not what his handwriting looks like when he is ‘block printing’.
That being said… there is STILL this big similarity in the lowercase letters ‘e’ and ‘t’.
ESPECIALLY the lowercase letter ‘t’.
Jesse’s handwritten lowercase letter ‘t’s have an unusually LOW ‘crossbar’, which means his lowercase ‘t’s pretty much end up resembling a PLUS SIGN ( + ) rather than a ‘t’ ( t ).
That is EXACTLY what is also seen with all the lowercase ‘t’ letters in the handwritten Crew Time Reports for June 28 and June 29.
** SAMPLE OF DARRELL WILLIS’S HANDWRITING…
In the same document that contains a sample of Jesse Steed’s handwriting…
Filename: “Appendix C 2013 – signed.pdf”
There is also a copy of what Darrell Willis’ handwriting looks like. Not only did Willis SIGN the document… he also then ‘block printed’ his TITLE next to his signature which was the word ‘Division’
The way Willis ‘block prints’ his ‘D’s and ‘i’s and ‘s’s and ‘n’s bears no resemblance to the way those same letters are ‘block printed’ in the ‘Crew Time Report’ document(s).
So it’s also pretty safe to say Willis’s handwriting is NOT a match for whoever was filling out BOTH of those Granite Mountain June 28 and 29 Crew Time Reports.
*** SUMMARY
So as to the question of WHO might have actually filled out these June 28 and June 29 Crew Time Reports… I ( me, personally… your mileage might vary ) would have to say…
1. Eric Marsh – I’d say definitely NO MATCH
2. Darrell Willis – I’d also have to definitely say NO MATCH
3. Jesse Steed – I would say LIKELY ( maybe even a GOOD ) MATCH.
**
** THE ‘AFMO’ WHO SIGNED GM’S JUNE 28 ‘WEST SPRUCE’ TIMESHEET
** WAS MOST LIKELY JASON CLAWSON.
Jason Clawson is most likely the one who signed Granite Mountain’s June 28 ‘West Spruce’ fire timesheet with the TITLE listed as ‘AFMO’.
The ‘West Spruce’ fire was ON the Prescott National Forest and Jason Clawson is, in fact, an AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer ) for the Prescott National Forest.
As for the other June 29 ‘Mount Josh’ timesheet… I still think the SIGNATURE looks the same as the June 28 timesheet… but on that one the TITLE is now ‘TFLD(t)’ instead of ‘AFMO’.
So if Jason Clawson really was the one signing BOTH of those June 28 and 29 GM timesheets… why he would list his title as ‘AFMO’ for the ‘West Spruce’ and then switch to listing his title as ‘TFLD(t)’ for the ‘Mount Josh’ file would be a total mystery.
** THE MEDIA ARTICLE ABOUT GRANITE MOUNTAIN,
** JASON CLAWSON, AND THE WEST SPRUCE FIRE
Almost 2 months to the day after the Yarnell tragedy, Joanna Dodder Nellans of the Prescott Daily Courier did an interview with Jason Clawson of the Prescott National Forest.
At that time… NO reports had come out yet and no one ( including Joanna Dodder Nellans ) had ANY idea that Jason Clawson had been AT the Yarnell Hall Fire on June 30, 2013… much less the fact that he was part of the ‘ground rescue mission’ that was looking for the crew and ended up being the one who announced over the TAC channels that there were 19 confirmed dead on the floor of the box canyon.
But in this article… Joanna CONFIRMED that ‘Jason Clawson’ is, in fact, an AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer ) for the Prescott National Forest.
This article was actually about the ‘West Spruce’ fire that Granite Mountain was working on the Prescott National Forest on Friday, June 28, 2013… and what their ‘role’ was in it…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Hotshots vital in many ways, experts say; crew helped
Prescott become the leader in national Firewise efforts
Published: 9/1/2013 6:00:00 AM – by Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/m/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=122777
From the article…
—————————————————————————–
PRESCOTT – On the fateful late afternoon of June 28 when lightning ignited the now-infamous Yarnell Hill wildfire 20 miles south of Prescott, lightning also sparked a relatively unknown blaze on the outskirts of Prescott called the West Spruce wildfire.
It was on the dangerous southwest side of the city, a few miles west and below the Highland Pines subdivision. And it was poised to push right up into the subdivision the next morning during extreme wildfire conditions if firefighters couldn’t surround it in rugged terrain overnight.
Jason Clawson, an assistant fire management officer on the Prescott National Forest where the fire started, was grateful that both the forest’s own Prescott Hotshots as well as the City of Prescott’s Granite Mountain Hotshots were in town instead of out on another fire. A former Prescott Hotshot himself, Clawson knew it would take at least two elite Type I hotshot crews to surround the blaze before the heat of the sunlight could send it running toward Prescott.
“If we hadn’t had both crews here, it would have been worse than the Doce,” said Clawson, referring to another June wildfire just northwest of Prescott that forced the evacuation of hundreds of Williamson Valley residents. “The capabilities of a hotshot crew far outweigh a Type II crew.” A Type II crew just doesn’t have the same skills to hike into remote areas and cut lines by hand around a 22-acre fire in the dark, so he wouldn’t have sent one to that fire, he said. Other federal hotshot teams were four or five hours away, so they couldn’t have helped either.
The West Spruce fire is just one example of the value of Prescott having the only municipal hotshot crew in the nation.
“That’s definitely a huge asset to have in your pocket,” said Joe Reinarz, a Type I national incident management team commander from Oregon who has been the incident commander on numerous fires with the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Now, the Prescott City Council is struggling with the decision about whether to rebuild its hotshot crew after losing 19 of its 20 members in the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30.
—————————————————————————–
It would be more than irony if Jason Clawson really was the one signing GM’s timesheets for June 28 and June 29… and would then be the one to confirm their deaths over the radio just 24 hours later in Yarnell.
It also puts a different perspective on Jason Clawson’s involvement in Yarnell and whether or not he could have been one of the ones communicating directly with them prior to the deployment. There has always been that possibility… but this would also add the consideration that for the two days prior to Yarnell… he appears to have been their BOSS and the one signing their timesheets.
So if Jason Clawson was calling them on the radio… they might not have even understood what his ‘role’ was on that fire… but they would have surely answered his radio calls and ( perhaps ) been attempting to do whatever he ASKED them to do.
A couple of quick things.
AFMO Could be Forest or District ?
There are Districts with in a forest that have the same Supervisor break down
This could mean the two fires were on separate Districts.
Or maybe not??
So Josh could have been on his and signed as AFMO and on the other fire as a TFLD
The Time Slips could have been pre signed and left the off time vacant to be finished by the Crew leader.
The Time keeping is shared by Both The Superintendent and The Asst. or Captain now. So that dose not surprise me.
The Crew Time report is turned in and The Fire Time Reports is filled out from it ether the Crew leader dose it all or Fire Time keepers do.
**
** SWCC RECORDS INDICATE THEY THOUGHT GRANITE MOUNTAIN
** HAD STARTED A NEW 14 DAY TOUR ON FRIDAY, JUNE 28, THE DAY
** BEFORE THE NIGHT THEY WOULD BE ASSIGNED TO YARNELL
>> On November 24, 2015 at 9:55 pm, Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Two days at station Light duty and home at night could still be classed as
>> a break with out being off duty but they were not on a Fire for those 2 days.
>> We counted that as non fire for the 14 on break even though it was not
>> days off it was low effort 8 hour work on a regular work day.
>> With 16 hours off per day.
>>
>> On November 24, 2015 at 10:48 pm WantsToKnowTheTruth replied…
>>
>> So what you are saying is even though they were still clocking hours during
>> what appeared to be the current ’14 day countdown’ to a MANDATORY 2 days
>> off ( with no hours clocked at all )… that June 26 and 27 could be construed
>> as ‘another reset’?
>>
>> In other words… with regards to this ’14 day’ thing… they essentially ‘reset’
>> themselves on that just by being ‘at home’ even though they were still
>> clocking hours?
Answered my own question here by looking at SWCC records.
As it turns out… that is EXACTLY what the SWCC dispatch center thought, with regards to Granite Mountain. SWCC records show them as having been ‘reset’ to another 14-day countdown ( a ‘tour’ as SWCC calls it ) the day after those 2 days ‘at home’ ( June 26 and June 27 ) but still ‘on the clock’.
The “I-Dispatch Records.pdf” document in the public evidence record has always contained more than just dispatch log printouts. It also contains many ‘screenshots’ of this SWCC Dispatch software showing various things at various times before / during / and after that tragic weekend.
One of those ‘Screenshots’ from the SWCC software shows what SWCC thought the ‘status’ was of all the Type 1 IHCs they were managing as of 9:00 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ( the morning of the day of the tragedy ).
The “I-Dispatch Records.pdf” document I am referring to now ( and in the last post ) is sitting here in the ‘Dispatch Records’ folder of the SAIT investigation online Dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABw6EzBXKgLiWzuH6LLPJo9a/Dispatch%20Records?dl=0
Starting on PDF page of this “I-Dispatch Records.pdf” document is a screen printout of the SWCC ‘chart’ showing the current ‘status’ of all the Type 1 ICS they control as of “6/30/13 0900” ( Sunday, June 30, 2013 – 9:00 AM ).
NOTE: The ‘Legend’ for the abbreviations being used on the screen says…
Commit date ( Date Com. ) – Day the crew STARTED a new 14 day tour.
Incident commit ( Inc. Com. ) – Day the crew was assigned to the curren incident.
The ‘current status’ for ‘Granite Mountain’ showing on that SWCC screen was…
———————————————————————————————–
State: Arizona
SWA ( Southwest Area ) Crew: Granite Mt.
State-DC-Unit: AZ-ADC-AZS
D/O ( Normal days off ): Su-Mo
Status: C ( Committed )
Date Com. ( Commit Date ): 6/28 ( Friday, June 28, 2013 )
Inc. Com. ( Incident Commit ): 6/29 ( Saturday, June 19, 2013 )
State: AZ
Unit: A1S
DC/GACC: PDC ( Prescott Dispatch Center )
Incident / Remarks: Yarnell Hill
————————————————————————————————–
So on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013… at 9:00 AM… SWCC was officially showing ‘Granite Mountain’ with a ‘Commit Date’ of Friday, 6/28, 2013. That’s the day after those days ‘on-the-clock’ but working at Station 7 on June 26 and June 27… and SWCC thinks Granite Mountain was ‘rested’ enough to officially start a NEW ’14 day tour’ that next day, Friday, June 28, when they got assigned to the ‘West Spruce’ fire.
So that really would seem to ‘put to rest’ any thinking that SWCC thought ‘Granite Mountain’ was at the END of a ’14 day tour’ when they allowed GM to be assigned to Yarnell.
Quite the opposite. This screen indicates that on that Sunday morning when ‘Granite Mountain’ showed up at the Yarnell fire… they were only TWO days into a NEW ’14 day tour’ that started on Friday, June 28.
That does NOT mean that the GM crew really WAS fully rested and ready to take on that Yarnell assignment. Kyle Dickman’s book says that John Percin suffered HEAT STROKE the day before Yarnell and that all that day ( Saturday ) the men were ‘irritable’ from cumulative lack of sleep.
But as far as what SWCC *thought* there status was… they had them at the START of a new ’14 day tour’ when they were assigned to Yarnell… and not at the ‘end’ of one.
** SWCC RECORDS SHOW SUNDAY AND MONDAY AS NORMAL
** DAYS OFF FOR GRANITE MOUNTAIN
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Marsh at some point back at base had to call SWCC to tell them they
>> were back at base and their availability.
>> Here is where the Padding time begins for Marsh.
>> If he waits to call till 2230 after he eats and what ever it gives him a
>> time noted at SWCC.
>> Normally at arrival within 30 Min. That call is Made. By the
>> Superintendent or their Dispatch to their Region Dispatch or in this case
>> to the National Center SWCC.
>>
>> At that Point Marsh should have put the Crew unavailable at a minimum till 0900
>> the next morning. Since that was a regular Day off he could have not put them
>> available till Tuesday Morning and been fully justified. From what I am seeing they
>> were SUN. and MON. Days off on there normal schedule.
Good point… and you are absolutely right about that.
The SWCC ‘status’ record above absoutely shows that even the SWCC computer database thought that Granite Mountain’s ‘normal’ days off were, indeed, Sunday and Monday.
Again… from the SWCC ‘status’ record above…
D/O ( Normal days off ): Su-Mo
Followup…
I accidentally left the PDF page number out of that reference above to the SWCC status record for Granite Mountain as of Sunday morning, June 30, 2013.
It’s page 7 ( SEVEN ).
Paragraph above should have read like this…
Starting on PDF page 7 ( page SEVEN ) of this “I-Dispatch Records.pdf” document is a screen printout of the SWCC ‘chart’ showing the current ‘status’ of all the Type 1 ICS they control as of “6/30/13 0900″ ( Sunday, June 30, 2013 – 9:00 AM ).
Followup 2…
———————————————————————-
So on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013… at 9:00 AM… SWCC was officially showing ‘Granite Mountain’ with a ‘Commit Date’ of Friday, 6/28, 2013. That’s the day after those days ‘on-the-clock’ but working at Station 7 on June 26 and June 27… and SWCC thinks Granite Mountain was ‘rested’ enough to officially start a NEW ’14 day tour’ that next day, Friday, June 28, when they got assigned to the ‘West Spruce’ fire.
———————————————————————–
I didn’t mean to suggest for one second that the SWCC just somehow ‘magically’ knows what ‘physical condition’ any particular crew is in and they are willy-nilly resetting their ‘Commit Dates’ in their records without checking with crew supervisors.
Someone ( Eric Marsh? Jesse Steed? Darrell Willis? ) had to NOTIFY the SWCC that GM seemed to be in good enough shape starting on Friday, June 28, 2013 to change their ‘Commit Date’ field to 06/28 and show them as having been ‘reset’ and now at the START of a brand new ’14 day tour’.
The SWCC isn’t a mind reader.
They have to have been TOLD these things.
**
** SWCC WAS NOTIFIED GRANITE MOUNTAIN WAS GOING TO
** BE RELEASED FROM ‘WEST SPRUCE’ FIRE ON SATURDAY NIGHT
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 25, 2015 at 9:11 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Again I can not believe that Prescott Dispatch did not Notify SWCC of GM
>> release from the ( West Spruce ) Fire.
They did.
Actually… I don’t know if it was ‘Prescott Dispatch’ notifying SWCC Dispatch about GM’s status on Saturday night… but SOMEONE did.
There has always been the following strange piece of evidence in the SWCC Dispatch logs for Saturday night, June 29, 2013…
From the second page ( from the top ) of the “I-Dispatch Records.pdf” file
in the public evidence record…
—————————————————————————
WildCAD Daily Log – All
06/29/2013 – 07/01/2013
Southwest Coordination Center ( SWCC )
Date: 06/29/2013
Time: 2025 ( 8:25 PM )
Dispatcher: FB
Log Entry: Granite Mountain IHC will be released off West Spruce fire to home.
I relayed the info to AZ-ADC and that Granite Mountain is the only Type 1 crew
available for Arizona tomorrow. We need to prioritize in the morning.
—————————————————————————
Notice that, at 8:25 PM, the SWCC Dispatch Center ( that has top level control over Granite Mountain IHC ) still thinks that Granite Mountain is GOING to be ( future tense ) released off the West Spruce Fire.
But by 8:25 PM… most of Granite Mountain was already back in town having dinner with their various spouses and girlfriends, or already drinking in the bars on Wiskey Row.
By 8:25… there was no ‘will be released’ about it.
They had ALREADY been released sometime prior to 7:00 PM, but SWCC apparently didn’t KNOW that.
Then notice the other ‘weirdness’.
Instead of saying that ‘Granite Mountain is not available’… SWCC is saying the exact opposite in this log entry and claiming they will be the ONLY Type 1 IHC available for all of Arizona the next day… Sunday, June 30, 2013.
NOTICE also that even at 8:25 PM Saturday night, SWCC Dispatch was confused about what FIRE the Type 1 IHC they were controlling had even been ‘assigned’ to that day. They say they ‘will be released from the West Spruce Fire’… but they weren’t even ( supposedly ) still assigned to that fire. The Granite Mountain TIMESHEETS say they were working the ‘Mount Josh’ fire on Saturday down there near Skull Valley.
More about this later.
There are other ‘interesting’ entries in the actual SWCC dispatch logs.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Here is where the Padding time begins for Marsh.
>> If he waits to call till 2230 after he eats and what ever it gives
>> him a time noted at SWCC.
That might be exactly what this SWCC Dispatch Log is showing. At 8:25 PM Saturday night… SWCC still thought Granite Mountain WILL ( future tense ) be released from the fire they were assigned to… but they already WERE.
Marsh had no idea on Saturday evening that Russ Shumate has lost his ‘Initial Attack’ down there in Yarnell and it was now an ‘Escaped Fire’ and Shumate was already in the process of frantically ordering up resources for Sunday.
According to Kyle Dickman’s book… he was sitting there in the Prescott Brewing Company having dinner with his wife when his cell phone rang and someone wanted to know where Granite Mountain was.
So it’s *possible* that Marsh got caught with his pants down at that moment.
He was GOING to wait until 2230 ( 10:30 PM ) to notify someone that GM was now ‘off-the-clock’… since that’s what the timesheet they turned in when they left the ‘Mount Josh’ fire that afternoon SAID…
…but now SWCC wanted to know where GM was and what their availabilty for tomorrow was.
Marsh had to ‘think fast’ and accept a new assignment for Sunday when the TIMESHEET they turned in said they weren’t even officially ‘released’ from their Saturday assignment yet ( even though they really had been ).
I do not KNOW that is what went down or that anyone now had their ‘pants down around their ankles’ for padding a timesheet and then purposely DELAYING notification(s) to SWCC to make that timesheet ‘look good”… but it’s *possible* that is what was going on Saturday night..
I’m still just trying to make sense of the existing evidence.
WTKTT,
Good job on locating an archive 2013 Wildcad record.
I think you may be getting too hung up on when and whether a Resource is ‘committed’ or ‘released’ from a fire or not. I recall being OFF fires for DAYS, yet not ‘released.’ And yet our Home Unit was ‘reporting’ by default to our GACC that we were still ‘committed’ to the Whatever Fire. The Local level merely did NOT report us released, so the GACC assumed we were still ‘committed.’
One of the reasons the Local Unit and/or GACC did this was so we were unavailable for reassignment in ROSS. If the Local Unit was hot, dry, and windy, then keeping you ‘committed’ to the Whatever Fire ensured that the GACC wouldn’t be calling asking for you. Sometimes it was conjured up at the local level and sometimes at the GACC level. It’s one of the games they play. So, to counter this, we would check on our ‘Availability’ status each day and if we were still ‘committed’ to the Whatever Fire, we would call the GACC and say we were not committed, and in fact sitting at our Home Base. Oft times the GACC would inquire on their own if the Local Unit hadn’t updated their Resource Availability and they KNEW a coveted Resource was really available when shown otherwise. Needless to say, turf battles ensued.
Regarding the pay issue, we were all usually on TWO WEEK PAY PERIODS, and so our times were not officially posted until they were processed on or about the end of the relevant Pay Periods. If the GMHS was posting their times for supervisor approval KNOWING it was false, that would be considered Falsification of Time at that time and NOT before. The Crew Time Reports (CTR) is the time document submitted to your Fireline Supervisor for approval. The the CTR time is posted on the Fire Time Report (FTR), ostensibly the ‘official time record.’ I always considered the CTR more ‘official ‘ because it had the supervisor’s approval signature on it, whereas the FTR does not. It could be alleged that if/when you sign your FTR upon demob and you KNOW it is FALSE, that you could be charged with Falsification of Time.
The next step is for the FTR time to be ‘officially’ posted on your local, home unit time process. Either you the employee does it or supervisors do it for their employees. These are forwarded to your supervisor for approval and certification SIGNATURES, YOURS AND THEIRS. Once you’re at this stage, you are basically certifying that your timesheet is ‘TRUTHFUL AND ACCURATE TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE.’ Your signature is the final step.
Your Agency could attempt to initiate falsification charges against an employee at any one of these stages, however, if they want to ensure the charge(s) stick, they wait until you have signed it with the WARNING above that you, the employee, “CERTIFY THAT THIS IS TRUTHFUL AND ACCURATE TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE’ or something similar.
So, even though it is unethical for anyone to ‘clock’ hours they really didn’t work, it’s not illegal until officially submitted and then certified truthful and accurate, etc. As stated above, It could be alleged that if/when you sign your FTR upon demob and you KNOW it is FALSE, that you could be charged with Falsification of Time. And even when they do this, it is almost always Administrative (in-house) rather than Criminal.
The entire National Wildland Fire pay system dealing specifically with MEAL PERIODS is corrupt, illegal, and rife with fraud as far as I’m concerned. The Interagency Incident Business Handbook is the guiding crucible for all pay. Regarding Meal Periods, they cite 29 CFR 785.19a for Bona Fide and/or Compensable Meal Periods, however, they do NOT follow it. We are NOT told to take a Meal Period; we are told to SHOW a Meal Period. And MOST WFF do just that, they SHOW one, typically a half hour, then ILLEGALLY ADD it on to the end of shift. I’d say that over 90% of WFF falsify their times this way. But this is a whole other issue ….
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post November 25, 2015 at 3:23 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Good job on locating an archive 2013 Wildcad record.
It wasn’t hard.
That SWCC Wildcad Dispatch log is in the SAIT public evidence record.
The “I-Dispatch Records.pdf” document is still sitting right here…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABw6EzBXKgLiWzuH6LLPJo9a/Dispatch%20Records?dl=0
The SWCC Dispatch log records are right there at the TOP of that document.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I think you may be getting too hung up on when and whether a Resource
>> is ‘committed’ or ‘released’ from a fire or not. I recall being OFF fires for
>> DAYS, yet not ‘released.’ And yet our Home Unit was ‘reporting’ by default
>> to our GACC that we were still ‘committed’ to the Whatever Fire. The Local
>> level merely did NOT report us released, so the GACC assumed we
>> were still ‘committed.’
You are right. There IS a big difference between just going ‘off-shift’ and going home for the night ( if your ‘home’ is close to the fire ) and actually being ‘released’ from the fire you are ‘assigned’ to at the moment.
Truth is… we don’t know what the situation was on the afternoon of Saturday, June 29, when Granite Mountain ‘left’ the ‘Mount Josh’ fire and turned in that TIMESHEET saying they should be paid for being ‘on the clock’ ( overtime ) until 10:30 PM Saturday night.
Did they FINISH what needed to be done there near Skull Valley on this ‘Mount Josh’ fire and didn’t need to ‘go back’?
Did someone expect them to ‘come back’ the next day for mop-up and was planning on having them do that ( on a scheduled day off )?
Were they ‘officially released’ from that fire and SHOULD have notified SWCC right away and just forgot?… or was it really a matter of someone deciding they better wait to make that notification until 10:30 PM because that’s what the TIMESHEET they turned in was already saying?
We don’t really know exactly what was going down there on Saturday.
SWCC didn’t even seem to know that GM was even AT ( assigned? ) to the ‘Mount Josh’ fire on Saturday. Their records ( and Dispatch logs ) just kept talking about whether they were still assigned to the ‘West Spruce’ fire from back on Friday, June 28.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> If the Local Unit was hot, dry, and windy, then keeping you ‘committed’ to the
>> Whatever Fire ensured that the GACC wouldn’t be calling asking for you.
Jason Clawson of the Prescott National Forest *might* have been doing that exact thing with Granite Mountain. He might have been wanting to keep GM ‘in his back pocket’ until he was sure all those ‘startups’ on the Prescott National Forest were over and done with.
So yea… GM might have been sent ‘home’ on Saturday… but no one was calling SWCC yet because Jason Clawson wanted them available for the PNF until he was SURE he wouldn’t need them anymore.
But all of that changed Saturday evening when Russ Shumate let that Yarnell Fire Initial Attack get away from him. All bets were off at that point and Shumate needed all the help he could get for the next day ( Sunday ).
Because of that botched ‘Initial Attack’ on Saturday… Yarnell became the ‘priority fire’ for Sunday for both ground AND Air resources.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Regarding the pay issue, we were all usually on TWO WEEK PAY
>> PERIODS, and so our times were not officially posted until they
>> were processed on or about the end of the relevant Pay Periods.
>> If the GMHS was posting their times for supervisor approval KNOWING
>> it was false, that would be considered Falsification of Time at that
>> time and NOT before. The Crew Time Reports (CTR) is the
>> time document submitted to your Fireline Supervisor for approval.
>> The CTR time is posted on the Fire Time Report (FTR), ostensibly
>> the ‘official time record.’ I always considered the CTR more ‘official ‘
>> because it had the supervisor’s approval signature on it, whereas
>> the FTR does not. It could be alleged that if/when you sign your FTR
>> upon demob and you KNOW it is FALSE, that you could be charged
>> with Falsification of Time.
>>
>> Your signature is the final step.
>>
>> So, even though it is unethical for anyone to ‘clock’ hours they
>> really didn’t work, it’s not illegal until officially submitted and then
>> certified truthful and accurate, etc. As stated above, It could be
>> alleged that if/when you sign your FTR upon demob and you
>> KNOW it is FALSE, that you could be charged with Falsification of Time.
>> And even when they do this, it is almost always Administrative
>> (in-house) rather than Criminal.
I actually followed your ‘bouncing ball’ there… and thank you for that detail.
Bottom line here is that regardless of how much ‘back-and-forth’ went on… ADOSH obtained the actual payroll distribution records from the City of Prescott and the hours PAID OUT match exactly the HOURS CLAIMED on that GM TIMESHEET submitted on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
So the MONEY for those ‘overtime hours until 10:30 PM on Saturday’ being claimed were actually (eventually) PAID OUT. There’s no question on that.
Whether all of your ‘bouncing ball’ scenario took place or not is a moot point.
The hours claimed were the hours eventually PAID.
That’s what the evidence says.
It is not ‘usual’ that an entire WFF Hotshot crew ( save one ) gets burned up in a fire, and it makes history, and the WORLD is asked to ‘mourn’ them, and a Vice President shows up, and millions of dollars are ‘donated’, and then lots of people ( media, investigators, etc.) begin to DO THEIR JOBS and try to find out what really happened.
And yes… that includes finding out EXACTLY who these men were, what they were doing THAT day, and what they were even doing the night BEFORE.
Well… that’s what happened THIS time.
And that’s why we KNOW where people were the night before, and when.
The Granite Mountain TIMESHEET for Saturday, June 29, 2013 ( signed by some unnamed TLFD(t) on the Mount Josh fire ) says, without question, that ALL of the Crew ( and not just Supt. and Asst. Supt. or Squad Leaders ) were in OVERTIME mode and AT WORK on ‘Mount Josh’ and/or work-shift close-out related activities until 10:30 PM on Saturday night.
The research and investigating and interviewing AFTER the tragedy proves, also without question, that that was NOT THE CASE… but the MONEY for those ‘other hours’ being claimed was, in fact, paid out.
**
** DEMOB OFF-CLOCK TIME ESTIMATES ( CONTINUED )
Reply to Woodsman post on November 24, 2015 at 10:24 pm
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room…
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I can understand your frustration. I can only speak as an A.D. or state salaried wff, not a
>> HS or USFS employee. The mechanism for reconciling an error is to file an amended
>> time entry with the dispatch center at the home unit upon return.
Thanks again for ‘sticking with this thread’ for a moment. I’m learning things.
So since you use the word ‘amended time entry’, I’m going to assume that means that in the system you are familiar with… the timesheet that was signed when you left your assignment IS considered ‘good to go’… unless YOU ( personally ) then take steps to ‘ammend/correct’ it.
In other words… you are simply being TRUSTED to not be ‘cheating the system’.
The other option that I was wondering about is whether or not it is REQUIRED to send in a FINAL timesheet when you DO know what the REAL hours were… like when you actually got home and not what you ‘estimated’ when you left the assignment.
You are telling me ( in your part of the swimming pool, anyway ) that is NOT the case.
That is still feeling ( to me ) like it’s almost a ‘license to steal’… if there is no mandatory followup on these ‘estimated off-clock times’.
>> Woodsman also said….
>>
>> It’s hard to know what time you return to the home unit until it actually happens
Of COURSE it is.
That’s why I was hoping to hear that no timesheet is considered FINAL until ‘after the fact’ and the REAL ‘off-clock’ time can be accurately reported.
But you are telling me that is simply NOT how things work. It’s all ‘loosey-goosey’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> It’s unethical to lie or steal.
Yes… but if simply being unethical was always punishable with jail time then there would be hardly anyone out walking the streets on any given day. We all know that.
What I am fishing for here is a legal concept known as ‘accepted practice’ and whether or not it comes into play trying to explain this GM timesheet evidence.
What YOU are telling me is that no matter how ‘loosey-goosey’ it might ‘look’ to someone… the practice of just trusting FFs departing from an assignment to correctly estimate their remaining hours ( even when they are already on OVERTIME when departing the assignment ) is simply the ‘accepted practice’ in this particular industry.
If that is the case… then it would be hard to actually prosecute anyone for ‘playing that game’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> If GM timesheets show on the clock at 2230 and some are at the bar at 2100…well,
>> that’s just wrong.
Well… probably… but where do you draw the line once you allow ‘loosey-goosey’?
How MUCH is TOO MUCH ‘loosey-goosey’?
If they were still alive and pressed about it… they could always just say “Oh, yeah, that Saturday night thing. Well… we thought it would take 3 hours to do the post-fire work but it didn’t. Sorry.”
Just for gags… here is what we might be talking about for just the Saturday billing alone…
** EXTRA MONEY EARNED BY GM ON SATURDAY NIGHT ALONE
Kyle Dickman reported in his book that Robert Caldwell ( a Squad Boss for Granite Mountain ) walked through the door of his home at 7:30 PM, in time for dinner on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Other reports put other GM crew back ‘at home in time for dinner’ that evening as well as the multiple reports about Eric Marsh having dinner with his wife at the Prescott Brewing company circa 7:30 to 8:00 PM and Jesse Steed already ‘at home’ around the same time ( before it was even dark ) having a ‘Coors Light’ on his back porch and watching his kids on their swing.
NOTE: Kyle Dickman had access to GM family members when he was writing his book so a lot of that information was likely coming from spouses of the deceased hotshots.
So let’s say Kyle Dickman is RIGHT about all these reports of the GM crew being ‘at home’ circa 7:30 PM Saturday night.
The GM time sheets say that NONE of the crew was ‘off the clock’ that Saturday night until 10:30 PM.
So that’s a 3 hour discrepancy.
Just for gags… that works out as the following in terms of ‘dollars’.
Each GM crewmember was on OVERTIME during this period, so a good estimate there would be an extra $20 x 3 hours = $60.
$60 times 20 men = $1200
The City of Prescott was reported to have been able to BILL something like $39.95 per hour for each and every hour worked by each and every Hotshot. There hasn’t been enough detail about all that even now to know if the City of Prescott was ALSO able to go much higher than that on the billing rate if the men were now also earning OVERTIME.
So let’s just say that regardless of their OVERTIME situation on Saturday night… The City of Prescott was only billing the standard $39.95 per hour for those ‘extra hours’ being clocked by each crewman on Saturday night.
$39.95 x 3 hours = $119.85 for each crew member.
$119.85 x 20 crewmembers = $2,397
Out of that $2,397…
$1,200 went to the 20 crewman to pay them their $20 x 3 hours each.
$1,197 went to the City of Prescott
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The balance or ‘equalizer’ comment, I think you are referring to moral equivalence.
>> Like “everybody’s does it, so why can’t I?”
I’m not trying to lay the ‘morality’ layer on it at all at the moment. I’m just trying to be sure I’ve got what you are telling me straight, first.
That is IS ‘accepted practice’ to let departing crews estimate when they will actually ( finally ) be ‘off the clock’… sign their timesheet…. and let them go.
That’s something I hadn’t really considered possible this afternoon when scratching my head about all this so thank you for the insight(s).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Not valid. The difference in times for me over the years has been small, less than an hour.
That’s great… but do you have a feel for whether you are in a very small percentage of people who can make THAT claim… or not?
In other words… if a DEMOB and associated hourly ‘estimates’ really is that ‘loosey-goosey’… do you think it’s widely abused, or not?
Speaking of ‘ethics’…
Did you know that the reason Eric Marsh threw his previous Assistant Superintendent ( Aaron Lawson ) under the bus is because he simply caught him putting hotel points for Granite Mountain on his own credit card… even though Darrell Willls later testified he knew about it and didn’t have a problem with it because the City of Prescott has no way to ever USE ‘Hotel Points’?
Eric Marsh was the one pulling the ‘ethics card’ with his own Asst. Supt. Aaron Lawson.
Could it be that Marsh was doing his own mental gymnastics and convinced himself that padding a DEMOB off-clock estimate was ‘industry practice’… but putting Hotel Points on a credit card was ‘unethical’ and a termination-level offense?
You actually used the ‘E’ word above…
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> It’s unethical to lie or steal.
Get a load of the ‘E’ word flying around here when Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis was trying to explain to ADOSH why Eric Marsh threw his own Asst. Supt. under the bus…
From Prescott Wildland Divison Chief Darrell Willis’ second
( of two ) ADOSH interviews on October 10, 2013…
——————————————————————-
1634 He ( Eric Marsh ) had a problem with the captain. Um, um,
1635 Aaron Lawson. And one of the main reasons he had a problem with ar- Aaron
1636 Lawson is Aaron’s ethics were a little lower than normal. And he didn’t like
1637 it. He didn’t like the fact that Aaron would put 10 rooms on a City credit card
1638 and then get hi- the points for the rooms on – when they travel, they gotta get
1639 10 rooms ‘cause there’s 20 of ‘em travelling.
1640
1641 Q2: Mm-hm.
1642
1643 A: They pull into, uh, Aaron would look it up, “Well, let’s stay at this, uh,
1644 Holiday Inn.” Well, the reason they always stayed at a Holiday Inn is so
1645 Aaron could get the points. And then he wouldn’t tell everybody. So that
1646 really pissed Eric off. Things like that, just little things. I mean, it’s not a big
1647 deal about the points and all that. But it was just little deals like that.
1648
1649 Q2: Mm-hm.
1650
1651 A: And, uh, so it – it came to a head to where Aaron realized he needed to leave.
1652 Eh, Aaron didn’t get fired or anything like that. Aaron left on his own
1653 because he knew that he was never gonna make it with Eric. And it was
1654 mostly ethical things.
——————————————————————-
WTKTT there are also Follow up Checks from the Fire. Forest or agency the Fire was on.
By the charge # all costs go to the Fire and back to agency. All costs are put together and reviewed if there are questions on excessive costs there are follow up. Some Forests & BLM
would charge a lot of replacement equipment and additional costs for hours that should have been charged as regular time. That would go back thru the system and be corrected.
Like I said Marsh was playing with Dynamite padding his time. Especially on a small Fire.
Prescott NF in review of Costs could have called his time excessive and had a review.
They normally do not do that till the Fall and winter review of Individual Fire Costs.
Just saying it is not as easy as it looks and most FS and BLM employees know they would be taking a serious chance if they did what Marsh did.
Prescott Forest would Have a good Idea of how long it would take the Crew to return to Prescott City. It is also a requirement that the IC must Sign off on all Hours over 12 and provide a Written reason for any over 16 Not sure if or how GM got away with out that.
being attached to their time.
An hour max to re outfit their equipment and Sharpen saws do the Paper work and go off time. The Time Sheet should show Fire Time, Release time and Travel time home. that should be on the Crew time report for each day worked and the supervisors Diary. Copies
Which are also turned into their Finance office.
With the need to make money was Willis ignoring the Padding as well?
He was responsible for the Crew and keeping tract of the Finances and City cut.
Questioning arriving home and 3 hours on time after with a 18 hour shift was his responsibility.
Taking Sonny to do a follow-up —er—due to the MRSA and staph and he is weak—when he signed himself out with his rn son they would not give him meds—he is getting weaker so I wanted him to see primary but the primary would not get involved and said to go to original and it seems being he signed out he is being rerouted so taking him to a new VA to get the meds for the infection and heart/lung/liver/kidney
out of the blue—but that is how it came to me today—OUT OF THE BLUE—
number one both Sonny and I are so glad we spent soooo much quality time with Charley Moseley-
the things he told us—it makes sense looking back…he died…http://www.rolltide.com/sports/c-xctrack/spec-rel/050114aab.html
In loving memory to him and all the loved ones we have lost and all fallen-
Happy Thanksgiving!
1. Fellow Hotshot Phillip Maldonado- I have very important investigative questions for you and if you can reach me- please do.
2. Helms- I would like to as the desert walker confirm what a GMHS loved one pointed out to me and I noted it that weekend as well as “new” as we went up—Did you clean and clear that property and around it soon before this YHF and just curious who was the contracted person to do all that work for you? What date? I noted it as the desert walker but when it was brought to my attention by a loved one I thought hmmm—it has laid important to my investigation when a homeowner near Manzanita told me of a cached satellite imagery website and we saw it but then it disappeared.
What I learned from a loved one of the men has been shocking but needs documented proof and the person thought the owner was DJ yet it is Hugh Leroy Helms (Lee) and her—-but in this conversation it was brought up about December 1946 tragedy involving an army vehicle and the Helms family—occurred just a few hundred feet south of Dewey’s Cafe and Garage on some bridge—
John MacLean mentioned in a smokejumper convention that DJ is doing a book so I hope they cover some questions we have and please reach me and I will direct you DJ to some loved ones’ questions too-
3. Dewanna (evacuation)- you showed us a restriction map that was embossed sealed with Scott Hunt before the YHF of that area being restricted than Paxon/Payne’s map matched the one you showed us—??? if you read this- we need you to reach us.
4. When you lose a child that way —in a fire— and the belongings come sealed from the evidence dept of YCSO out of Peeples Valley with TO THE PARENTS OF… why did some loved ones take it upon themselves to open something sooooo personal not addressed to you—WHY? When that box reached the proper destination to A PARENT OF not family in association of – was it all intact and nothing removed; was it original contents? To hear the details and soon see the items for myself I will connect to it and guess what—YCSO and not one investigator knows I now know the man who took the belongings from the site to now have a loved one willing to show me items and match it up to the very person who gathered the items plus I was there that day and I know what was visually on him as it was already confirmed with the loved one as we spoke and also the way I described every detail to their child- RIGHT ON—exactly…see I am going to get closer to WHY YOU FELT to open that box— it was not your son — that was inappropriate— beyond inappropriate—I will one day figure out why—even if we never meet just how God is guiding this whole thing all along
5. Jesse Steed. I want to really talk about him in a sense. Well- when I saw an article long while back about Claire who I call the soul lady because alot of depth and soul to her and my whole being felt she was getting to know or building a closer friendship within Steed’s family system and by accident this past Summer it was confirmed my odd gut feeling just reading an article–but I was told she was dating a Steed- so I found that weird that I sensed it never meeting her or knowing either family and so it was odd the comforting feeling I got from it…but then a loved one said it is not weird because many family and loved ones are getting these same kind of feelings on things after the fire. I learned alot about these men at the 2015 Wildfire Convention but I do look forward to Fernanda’s book on them-
hope to meet this man some day–
ht tp s://w w w.youtube.c o m/watch?v=MIXyY5rwr3M
I still feel this way:
from Daily Courier
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2014
Article comment by: Joy Collura
Amen to the editorial message.
Some think the truth died in that fire yet I am back and I will put one foot in front of the other—
and I’ll keep doing my part to let folks know about these heroes—
In regards to the fire and these men dying—the pure truth lies in the words to come. The love in hearts will succeed in getting the clarity needed to properly assess YHF. I truly believe as life unfolds in His time the 19 will have their clarity here for their loved ones of more details to that weekend. Did I unwrinkle a brow out there or bring a soft smile to your face? I state over and over on the forum about locals to please share because I am persistent until I see it happen. Some may think I fail because noone yet has come forward—it is like this—when Tex was teaching me to be a logger and I cut a notch with sort of a hinge and I could easily use a chainsaw but the rugged old mountain man was showing me the proper ways to use the axe—one blow after another of my blade hitting the tree. The first blow may cause a tremor to the tree, and each blow to follow—each blow may even be triffling and seem of NO consequence and not getting anywhere yet eventually that tree tumbled in the direction I notched it with a hinge. So it takes the effort (the blow) to “speak up” and eventually…
in closing—the gmhs loved one asked me something very direct and I guess I have to let everyone know I guess because there is so many missing elements and redactions I will be the voice for those who cannot—just think about it—every person who has come to us has not had THE BIG MISSING ELEMENT piece yet their information did and does continue to help us piece together the puzzle so special thank you to all of you—
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_sJhLEY8mU
Should of been done by now…been having the craziest run of things…here at phnx va …he has been in er awaiting admitting because he is not well. His hair looks good..that’s about it…I used his new outlaw clippers. Hope he regains more strength. Sonny is strong mentally…just the physical. So anyways this time sheet topic. Is there any foia I can request from Prescott city counsel or mayor on topic because its very interesting topic to me especially think this topic is important to a few who peak in that know the men that should chime in here.
Funny thing. Sonny ended up getting admitted to Phoenix V A room 15 wing 3b and his neighbor in Va is retired investigator.
Government investigator. This might be our next blessing in regards to yhf…
Happy H A P P Y Happy H A P P Y Thanksgiving EVERYONE!
G O B B L E til ya W O B B L E!
be kind and rewind the scale back ten pounds for this week 🙂
Sonny-
as you lay there with the cool system in front of you that you can watch netflix or the internet or just watch tv…
Looking back what are just one or two fond memories you have on Thanksgiving—this could be to anyone reading this—share a memory—
I know it’s not me as one of your top Thanksgiving memories because since we met I always took that day out or half out—
My favorite ones was when I was very little—we always went to Uncle Benjamino Spinelli’s for Thanksgiving because he had the bucks -BIG BUCKS- and the kick ass spread (LOTS of ANY kind of LIQUOR) and the kick ass game time & game room. I remember my mother watching the football game with the guys & thought WHAT WOMAN GETS THAT EXCITED OVER FOOTBALL AND REALLY LOVES IT— My brother and my mother were born September 9th and they really all my life had a love for football— fantasy football whatever-mi-jiggers that they do—special game parties—Superbowl events—the very odd part to me is one really loves the Vikings and the other the Browns—????? ohh-who— yet they really have a love for the game so I asked one time because as a kid I loved doing nativity skits as you seen on my private links I have shared and one year I asked if we could go to Lake Pleasant and have our OWN Thanksgiving away from the HUGE family unit just OUR immediate family and do Indians and Pilgrims. It was my favorite memory and after seeing Sonny I went to see my pops and tonight was one of my favorite memories with him. My dad use to be pretty decent looking but it is sad what cataract surgery did to him and his cancers—He looked at my health records tonight and hugged me and said this was his favorite visit in his entire life in knowing me. I was talking about how Papa- his dad- and we all use to fish—fly fish and how I recently updated my license and how my dad and gramps loved how I had a knack for catching, cleaning and filet a fish like no other—with such an art to how I did it—from the water to how it was displayed on the plate to the succulent way it hit our tongues— I felt so happy tonight to have that memory even though tomorrow is Thanksgiving— I see the past two weeks how weak Sonny looked yet how strong he is considering— he had to stay today because the tests they ran and the labs they did show signs of another heart attack—I hope after I cook tomorrow in Congress that when I head to the Phoenix VA that he is able to be released— I saw much improvement when he was in Yarnell resting vs the hospital as you all did too with his comments here. After reviewing his labs/tests/etc its amazing how far he got in a short time…
So what was your best Thanksgiving memory?
chime in—ANYONE.
and again have a safe loving Happy Thanksgiving.
Thank you all for your continued participation—to a horrific weekend we eye-witnessed and may the truths keep being revealed as time goes by—
Sonny’s neighbor in the VA—the govt investigator—gave some very very good advice and we shall do just that—
WAVING HELLO TO YOU ALL—
I use to love creating fine top notch dishes for the Holidays—
I wonder any of you ever do what I use to do for so many years—
debone a turkey than stuff it than with cooking twine recreate the form of the traditional turkey as if bones were in it than freak people out as you go to carve this juicy moist delicious and full of flavor turkey and people would be like how the hell did you just carve right through bones? Oh how I loved creating magical moments at the table— we were talking about that tonight— I use to make everything from scratch—pastas—pizzas—everything—I cooked fine foods and my specialties were Portugese- Hungarian- Italian and yet nowadays I am satisfied with Tex’s cowboy style miner’s beans…and his biscuits and gravy—
May God Be With You-
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 25, 2015 at 11:49 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Happy H A P P Y Happy H A P P Y Thanksgiving EVERYONE!
Thank you, Joy.
The same to you and yours!
Looking at the Time slips noted by WTKTT.
I need to retract my statement until We can find out what the 26 and 27 were.
Those two days Indicate 8 hours each Regular 8.
Were those days on a Fire?
Were they days between the two fires?
If so were they in Prescott on 2 days RR Working or not working on Reg. Work Days or were they Off but paid??????????
That’s a critical question.
Defiantly need more info——They worked 133.5 Hours over 8 days before the 2 8 hour days. If they worked those 2 Days that was not a actual RR Brake before the next Fire. That jumped out at me when I went thru the Hours adding them up.
If they were actual work days along with 28 and 29Th the 12 day total
was——–180 Hours. Before Yarnell .
If it was a actual no work 2 days off then they had only 30.5 hours before Yarnell.
FOR WTKTT
If a Fire Camp is big enough for a Finance section
They fill out the FIRE TIME SHEETS
Single Resourses and Crew Resources turn in Crew time reports at end of shift.
Which are used to Fill out the Time Reports
At end of Fire the Time slips are signed by Finance Officer Packaged and given to the Crew the Supervisor then finishes off the Time slip at arrival home and turns that into their Home Finance section.
So you could see a different names on the Time Sheets other than the IC or the Superintendent.
Copy that.
But you said…
“Single Resourses and Crew Resources turn in Crew time reports at end of shift.”
Sooo…. if that timesheet for the entire Granite Mountain Crew for their work on the ‘Mount Josh’ fire on Saturday, June 29, 2013 says they were ALL ‘on the clock’ ( and earning overtime pay ) until 10:30 PM Saturday night…
…then who would have been there at the fire at ‘end of shift’ to turn in that document which says that?
Because evidence shows that the entire Granite Mountain crew LEFT that fire early enough in the afternoon for crewman like Robert Caldwell to walk through the door of his home for dinner at only 7:30 PM, not 10:30 PM.
If it’s only about 6:30 in the afternoon and some ‘crew resource’ hands someone a timesheet at ‘end of shift’ that has an end time 4 hours into the FUTURE…
…isn’t someone supposed to ‘catch that’ and say “What the fuck is THIS?”.
Travel days or ‘last shift’ is usually estimated time. ‘How long before you get back to your homebase, etc.’ Confusing? Bob? Where’s Bob.
I’m totally open to any explanations… but they have to fit the existing evidence.
Example: Bob Powers said down below that YES… even the TIME after you get back home following travel to ‘put up the tools’ and otherwise ‘close out’ an assignment is ‘time on the clock’.
I get it. If I meet one of my own lawyers for lunch… he has me ‘on the clock’ until he gets BACK to his own office.
Are you suggesting that at ‘end of shift’… supervisors actually accept an ‘estimated time’ for when you will be done with all the ‘post-shift’ travel and work… and they ‘sign off’ ( and you get paid ) for that estimate even if it’s 3 or 4 hours too much?
Bob? Oh Bob, get your ass back here. Need a little help here.
WTKTT:
Yes. If I’m 18 states from home & in the process of demob, I will tell the finance section how long it should take me to get home. I may have 3 flights – 2 layovers that all have to be on time and driving time to my home unit. It’s a guess. If it’s wrong there is a mechanism to correct that. There is potential to take advantage here, it’s true. I just put down what it should be & happy to get home. I’ve probably been home early as much as I’ve been home late in regards to the estimate.
Woodsman
Oh I’m not trying to ‘fit the existing evidence.’ Not trying to explain exactly what happened in GM case either. Actually, I don’t know what the hell I’m trying to do. Sure that helps?? My head is spinning trying to process all of this information!
Woodsman
On a 2 day ABC Misc. They may have kept their own and filled out the time back at Base that or they were given their slips with out a final time and they put in that time back at base. That can and dose happen with HS Crews.
ADs are handled different and some times paid at release or back at the Forest or dispatch location they came from.
I am Betting the Time slip was signed at the Fire and left the off time for the
Supervisor to fill in when back at base.
I have seen estimated Travel and I have seen Superintendent fill out the Time and sign.
Yes it opens up the possibility of padding a Fire time slip. But it happens and The Superintendents are
highly Paid GS 9 and trusted.
With no checks and balances on GM evidently this may have happened a lot.
The city was making money the more hours the crew worked they were not to interested in checking the time.
This whole city owning a Crew is not a good Idea.
Thank you, Bob… and thank you as well for sticking with this conversation for a minute.
I think we *MAY* be arriving at an explanation for why Granite Mountain’s ( signed ) time sheet for their work on the ‘Mount Josh’ fire appears to have them ( every single crew member ) still ‘on the clock’ and earning juicy OVERTIME for 3 or 4 ( or more ) hours than they deserved.
I think what you just said was…
“That wouldn’t be unusual and it’s an accepted practice in the WFF industry”.
I’d be less fond to learn it was your OTHER scenario.
That someone really did submit those time sheets well AFTER the fire and they STILL put down a ‘off-shift’ time of 10:30 PM even though by then they KNEW that was totally false.
By the way…
If we are now just looking at what might be ‘standard practice’ of being ‘loosey-goosey’ every time a Crew DEMOBS from a fire…
Kyle Dickman says the following in his book about when GM got ‘released’ from the ‘Doce’ fire during this same ’14 day period’ we’ve been putting the microscope on….
Page 176 of Dickman’s book…
——————————————-
After seven shifts on the Doce fire, the incident management team released Granite Mountain on June 25.
——————————————-
Dickman doesn’t say what TIME they actually got DEMOBBED on June 25.
But here are the Prescott Payroll records for June 25 for Marsh and Steed….
——————————————–
Tuesday, June 25, 2013…
MARSH, ERIC 06/25/13 REGULAR EA 2.00
MARSH, ERIC 06/25/13 REGULAR PA 6.00
MARSH, ERIC 06/25/13 OVERTIME-W 2.00
STEED, JESSE 06/25/13 REGULAR EA 2.00
STEED, JESSE 06/25/13 REGULAR PA 6.00
STEED, JESSE 06/25/13 OVERTIME-W 2.00
——————————————–
The HOURS claimed are identical… but the UNUSUAL thing for THIS ‘DEMOB DAY’ is that of all the payroll records since way back into the prior month… these are the ONLY ones for Marsh and Steed that have THREE separate time inputs other than one exception… and that exception was the day they STARTED on the Doce fire.
So not sure what to make of that.
The ‘Doce’ fire was no more that a 1/2 hour drive ( if that ) from GM’s Station 7.
Do you think these records might indicate some more ‘loosey-goosey’ stuff going on when it’s a DEMOB day?
Just ‘pad’ the hours with a ‘guess’… get someone to sign off on it…. and here come a few FREE hours for the entire crew AND the City of Prescott?
Reply to Woodsman post on
November 24, 2015 at 8:27 pm
Thanks for sticking with this for a minute. You are helping me to understand what *MIGHT* be an explanation for what the evidence is showing.
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> It’s a guess. If it’s wrong there is a mechanism to
>> correct that.
And what is that mechanism?
I can understand needing to get someone who was AT the fire you are LEAVING to ‘sign off’ on a time sheet… but surely that isn’t the FINAL time sheet from which paychecks are cut or time is billed?
How COULD it be if ( as you say ) no one is ever sure exactly when they ARE going to be officially ( and finally ) ‘off the clock’ for that assignment?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> There is potential to take advantage here, it’s true.
Potential? I’d say that’s putting it mildly if there is no ‘follow up’ on these ‘time estimates’. I’d call it a “license to steal”.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I just put down what it should be & happy to get home.
>> I’ve probably been home early as much as I’ve been
>> home late in regards to the estimate.
Well… are you trying to tell me ‘that’s the balancer’ in such a scenario? That people in the WFF industry just figure as long as sometimes I’m missing a few hours and sometimes I get paid for some hours I didn’t work… it all ‘evens out’ and ‘who cares’?
No see above Haven’t got time right now for a long lesson.
Have company for Thanks giving.
Short point on FS HS crews There are checks and Balances thru the Forest Dispatch they report to.
You do not want to be caught Falsifying Time Slips. It is a Felony on top of losing your Job.
Marsh was playing some long odds he would not be caught.
Just another Bad decision.
Most of the time the estimate is a little long like an extra Hour. Normally very close on the travel home VS the Travel to the Fire when driving..
Don’t need a ‘long lesson’.
The question is simpler than that.
Are WFF crews simply TRUSTED when leaving a fire to correctly estimate their own ‘end of shift’ time that includes travel and post-shift work… and there is never really much ( if any ) followup on how accurate they are being?
If the answer there is YES…. then we *MAY* have just arrived at the explanation for why Granite Mountain’s timesheet for June 29, 2013 ( the day before they all died ) seems to show them still ‘on the clock’ when they were really all either home having dinner or out at bars drinking beers.
WTKTT:
I can understand your frustration. I can only speak as an A.D. or state salaried wff, not a HS or USFS employee. The mechanism for reconciling an error is to file an amended time entry with the dispatch center at the home unit upon return. It’s hard to know what time you return to the home unit until it actually happens (and I’m talking straight home.) It’s unethical to lie or steal. There’s all kind of douchebags in this world…like someone on disability that plays golf, etc. If GM timesheets show on the clock at 2230 and some are at the bar at 2100…well, that’s just wrong.
The balance or ‘equalizer’ comment, I think you are referring to moral equivalence. Like “everybody’s does it, so why can’t I?” Not valid. The difference in times for me over the years has been small, less than an hour.
Just a side note: when I reviewed the OF-288 for GM, I specifically looked to see what their status was, A.D. etc. It’s a checkbox near the top. GM’s said “other.” I have no experience to share as an “other” resource working for the USFS.
Reply to Woodsman post on
November 24, 2015 at 10:24 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I can understand your frustration. I can only
>> speak as an A.D. or state salaried wff, not a
>> HS or USFS employee. The mechanism for
>> reconciling an error is to file an amended
>> time entry with the dispatch center at the
>> home unit upon return.
Thanks again for ‘sticking with this’ for a moment.
So since you use the word ‘amended time entry’, I’m going to assume that means that in the system you are familiar with… the timesheet that was signed when you left your assignment IS considered ‘good to go’… unless YOU ( personally ) then take steps to ‘ammend/correct’ it.
In other words… you are simply being TRUSTED to not be ‘cheating the system’.
The other option that I was wondering about is whether or not it is REQUIRED to send in a FINAL timesheet when you DO know what the REAL hours were… like when you actually got home and not what you ‘estimated’ when you left the assignment.
You are telling me ( in your part of the swimming pool, anyway ) that is NOT the case.
That is still feeling ( to me ) like it’s almost a ‘license to steal’… if there is no mandatory followup on these ‘estimated off-clock times’.
>> Woodsman also said….
>>
>> It’s hard to know what time you return
>> to the home unit until it actually happens
Of COURSE it is. That’s why I was hoping to hear that no timesheet is considered FINAL until ‘after the fact’ and the REAL ‘off-clock’ time can be accurately reported.
But you are telling me that is simply NOT how things work. It’s all ‘loosey-goosey’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> It’s unethical to lie or steal.
Yes… but if simply being unethical was always punishable with jail time then there would be hardly anyone out walking the streets on any given day. We all know that.
What I am fishing for here is a legal concept known as ‘accepted practice’.
What YOU are telling me is that no matter how ‘unethical’ it might ‘look’ to someone… the practice of just trusting FFs departing from an assignment to correctly estimate their remaining hours ( even when they are already on OVERTIME when departing the assignment ) is simply the ‘accepted practice’ in that particular industry.
If that is the case… then it would be hard to actually prosecute anyone for ‘playing that game’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> If GM timesheets show on the clock at 2230
>> and some are at the bar at 2100…well,
>> that’s just wrong.
Well… probably… but where do you draw the line once you allow ‘loosey-goosey’?
How MUCH is TOO MUCH ‘loosey-goosey’?
If they were still alive and pressed about it… they could always just say “Oh, yeah, that Saturday night thing. Well… we thought it would take 3 hours to do the post-fire work but it didn’t. Sorry.”
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The balance or ‘equalizer’ comment, I
>> think you are referring to moral equivalence.
>> Like “everybody’s does it, so why can’t I?”
I’m not trying to lay the ‘morality’ layer on it at all at the moment. I’m just trying to be sure I’ve got what you are telling me straight.
That is IS ‘accepted practice’ to let departing crews estimate when they will actually ( finally ) be ‘off the clock’… sign their timesheet…. and let them go.
That’s something I hadn’t really considered possible this afternoon when scratching my head about all this so thank you for the insight(s).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Not valid. The difference in times for me over
>> the years has been small, less than an hour.
That’s great… but do you have a feel for whether you are in a very small percentage of people who can make THAT claim… or not?
In other words… if a DEMOB and associated hourly ‘estimates’ really is that ‘loosey-goosey’… do you think it’s widely abused, or not?
Did you know that the reason Eric Marsh threw his previous Assistant Superintendent ( Aaron Lawson ) under the bus is because he simply caught him putting hotel points Granite Mountain on his own credit card… even though Darrell Willls later testified he knew about it and didn’t have a problem with it because the City of Prescott has no way to ever USE ‘Hotel Points’?
Eric Marsh was the one pulling the ‘morality card’ with his own Asst. Supt. Aaron Lawson.
Could it be that Marsh was doing his own mental gymnastics and convinced himself that padding a DEMOB off-clock estimate was ‘industry practice’… but putting Hotel Points on a credit card was ‘immoral’ and a termination-level offense?
Followup…
Woodsman… I actually reposted the last Reply up above as a new parent comment with some additional info such as…
1. Detail on the approximate $2,300 (possible) overcharges just for Saturday night alone.
2. Willis’ actual ADOSH testimony about Eric Marsh throwing his own Asst. Supt. ( Aaron Lawson ) under the bus for ‘ethical reasons’ surrounding Hotel points.
That new comment is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-316769
My timesheet is correct when I demob unless I file a correction with my home unit dispatch when I return.
Yes I’m trusted not to cheat the system.
It would be speculation on my part to say if it’s abused and if so, how much. I make mine as accurate as possible.
Hope this helps.
_______________________________________
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 24, 2015 at 1:04 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Looking at the Time slips noted by WTKTT.
>> I need to retract my statement until We can find out what
>> the 26 and 27 were.
>> Those two days Indicate 8 hours each Regular 8.
>> Were those days on a Fire?
No. Granite Mountain worked SEVEN straight shifts on the ‘Doce’ fire ( a full WEEK of constant shifts ) starting around 11:45 AM Tuesday, June 18 and then at the end of the next Tuesday, June 25 workday they were released from the Doce Fire.
June 26 and 27 were full 8 hour workdays, but spent at Station 7.
See details below.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Were they days between the two fires?
Yes. June 25 and 26 were regular 8 hour workdays but they were spent at Station 7 in-between the ‘Doce fire’ and the ‘West Spruce’ fire assignment(s).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If so were they in Prescott on 2 days RR
>> Working or not working on Reg. Work Days or were they Off but paid??????????
>> That’s a critical question.
Not RR days ( on June 25 and 26 ). Still full 8 hour workdays but not on a fire line.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Defiantly need more info——They worked 133.5 Hours over 8
>> days before the 2 8 hour days. If they worked those 2 Days
>> that was not a actual RR Brake before the next Fire.
Correct. They were still full work days and not RR days.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> That jumped out at me when I went thru the Hours adding them up.
>> If they were actual work days along with 28 and 29Th the
>> 12 day total was——–180 Hours. Before Yarnell .
That’s the correct situation. June 25 and June 26 were still full 8 hour ‘work days’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If it was a actual no work 2 days off then they had only
>> 30.5 hours before Yarnell.
It’s the 180 hours.
Kyle Dickman’s book did a pretty good job of talking about exactly where they were and what they were doing from the moment they were assigned to the ‘Doce’ fire and started a new 14-day work/rest countdown until they moment they were dispatched to Yarnell.
Kyle Dickman’s book can still be purchased here…
http://www.amazon.com/Burning-Edge-Fateful-Dickman-2015-05-12/dp/B017WQCJYE/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1448416526&sr=1-3&keywords=kyle+dickman
Page 176 of Kyle Dickman’s book…
——————————————————–
After seven shifts on the Doce, the incident management team released Granite Mountain on June 25, 2013. The Doce wouldn’t be declared 100 percent contained until early July, but it never again ran like it had in that first terrifying shift.
Page 177…
The hotshots spent the next two shifts at the station. The workday returned to normal nine-to-fives, which in one very important way felt like days off: After work, all the hotshots could go home and do as they pleased.
The crew spent the couple of station days they had after the Doce taking care of minutiae overlooked in the hustle between fires. Scott ( Norris ) and the sawyers cleaned their chainsaws, replaced fuel filters, and put an edge on their backlog of dulled chains. Meanwhile, Grant, Woyjeck, and the others removed trashbags of empty water and Gatorade bottles from buggies and sharpened their hand tools. New boxes of MREs ( Meals Ready to Eat ) were loaded into the buggies, the drip torch fuel, bar oil, and gas were all replenished, and the hotshots were ready for their next assignment.
Page 178…
While the rest of the crew used the string of down days to rest up, Scott Norris REMAINED EXHAUSTED. He’d been staying up all night to see Heather. One day, he fell asleep on the bench press in the weight room and Donut, seizing the opportunity, tied him to the bench with flagging while the other hotshots snickered in the background.
Marsh returned full-time to the superintendent position that week, too.
One of the first things he did was recap for the guys what had happened on the Dude Fire. June 26 marked that fatal blaze’s twenty-third anniversary, and many of the environmental factors that had led to that catastrophe were once again aligning over the Southwest.
Page 179…
So the hotshots kept to their station chores– Woyjeck cleaning the bathroom, Grant sweeping the floors– waiting for a fire to break out and soaking in the slow shifts in the meantime.
——————————————————–
So here is what Eric Marsh’s Prescott payroll times obtained by ADOSH look like starting with their assignment to the ‘Doce’ fire on June 18 and on through the day they all died.
This one has annotations showing when they were working at Station 7 during that period leading up to Yarnell and when they actually working on fires…
——————————————————————————————–
2 days off ( completely off )…
Sunday, June 16 and Monday, June 17.
No hours recorded by either Marsh or Steed.
NOTE: The Doce fire started the morning of Tuesday, June 18
and Granite Mountain was dispatched to it around 11:45 AM that day.
MARSH, ERIC S 06/18/13 100 REGULAR EA 04.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/18/13 101 REGULAR PA 04.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/18/13 270 OVERTIME-W 07.50 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/19/13 100 REGULAR EA 08.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/19/13 270 OVERTIME-W 12.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/20/13 100 REGULAR EA 08.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/20/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/21/13 100 REGULAR EA 08.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/21/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/22/13 100 REGULAR EA 08.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/22/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/23/13 270 OVERTIME-W 18.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/24/13 270 OVERTIME-W 14.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/25/13 100 REGULAR EA 02.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/25/13 101 REGULAR PA 06.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/25/13 270 OVERTIME-W 02.00 – Doce fire
MARSH, ERIC S 06/26/13 101 REGULAR PA 08.00 – Station 7
MARSH, ERIC S 06/27/13 101 REGULAR PA 08.00 – Station 7
MARSH, ERIC S 06/28/13 101 REGULAR PA 08.00 – Station 7
MARSH, ERIC S 06/28/13 270 OVERTIME-W 06.50 – West Spruce
MARSH, ERIC S 06/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 08.00 – Mount Josh
MARSH, ERIC S 06/29/13 270 OVERTIME-W 08.00 – Mount Josh
MARSH, ERIC S 06/30/13 101 REGULAR PA 24.00 – Yarnell
——————————————————————————————-
And here is Dickman’s account of how they came back to work the morning of Tuesday, June 18 after those 2 days ‘completely off’ on Sunday, June 16 and Monday June 17 and only spent a few hours ‘running’ at Station 7 before being dispatched to the ‘Doce’ fire…
Page 155 of Kyle Dickman’s book…
——————————————————————————————-
On June 18 the hotshots were back at work ( after having taken 2 full days completely off ) and they had barely finished their first exercise run in weeks when somebody spotted white smoke curling over the Bradshaws, to the west. “That’s not a good place for a fire. There are million-dollar homes up there,” Donut said to no one in particular. “If they don’t catch that in an hour it’s gone”.
It was 11:30 AM, and already well into the eighties, with winds gusting to nearly thirty miles per hour.
“Fucking send us already,” Donut said.
He ran inside to use the bathroom and by the time he was out, Steed was yelling for the hotshots to load up.
——————————————————————————————-
So according to Dickman… Granite Mountain had showed up at Station 7 the morning of Tuesday, June 18 after the two full days off, and spent that morning exercising/running. By 11:45 AM they were being dispatched to the newly started ‘Doce’ fire.
So only a few of the base-time 8 hours being reported for Tuesday, June 18, 2013 were spent at Station 7. The rest of the base-8 and overtime that Tuesday were spent on the Doce fire.
Apologies. Typos above.
I typed “June 25 and 26′ above in a few places where I meant to
type ‘June 26 and June 27’.
So just to be clear… the two days that Mr. Powers was wondering about were June 26 and 27. Those are the two days they were at Station 7 and not on a fireline.
Granite was still working the ‘Doce’ fire all day on June 25 and they weren’t released from the Doce until the end of THAT workday.
Two days at station Light duty and home at night could still be classed as a break with out being off duty but they were not on a Fire for those 2 days.
We counted that as non fire for the 14 on break even though it was not days off it was low effort 8 hour work on a regular work day. With 16 hours off per day.
So what you are saying is even though they were still clocking hours during what appeared to be the current ’14 day countdown’ to a MANDATORY 2 days off ( with no hours clocked at all )… that June 26 and 27 could be construed as ‘another reset’?
In other words… with regards to this ’14 day’ thing… they essentially ‘reset’ themselves on that just by being ‘at home’ even though they were still clocking hours?
Regardless…
I think what we are still in the act of proving here is that it was not any kind of WORK/REST considerations that explain why SWCC had Granite Mountain showing as ‘unavailable’ on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
It was what Arizona Dispatch Center Lead Norval Tyler told ADOSH.
SWCC was NOT showing GM as having been officially ‘released’ from the ‘Mount Josh’ fire at the time Russ Shumate’s request for 3 Type 1 Hotshot crews hit SWCC dispatch circa 8:00 PM on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
And according to the GM timesheets… that’s exactly the way their ‘availability’ should have looked circa 8:00 PM on Saturday night.
According to the GM timesheets… they were still either ‘in transit’ home from their current assignment and still 2 and one-half hours away from going ‘off the clock’ at 10:30 PM.
But they really weren’t.
Kyle Dickman says that this phone call from someone about GM’s ACTUAL availability came WHILE he was having dinner with Amanda at the Prescott Brewing Company. Dickman even goes so far as to say Marsh excused himself from the table… took care of the business of accepting the order for Yarnell… and then calmly returned to Amanda and finished his dinner.
So somehow… somewhere… the fact that GM was going to be claiming to be ‘on the clock’ until 10:30 PM on Saturday ( when they were really all home or having dinner or out at bars by 7:30 PM ) might be part of the reason SWCC was showing them as “still working the Mount Josh fire”.
Because their TIME sheets SAID that’s what they were doing.
Again I can not believe that Prescott Dispatch did not Notify SWCC of GM release from the Fire that Happens immediately when they are notified by the Fire and noted on the original order Demob. flow back
on paper work. Marsh at some point back at base had to call SWCC to tell them they were back at base and their availability.
Here is where the Padding time begins for Marsh. If he waits to call till 2230 after he eats and what ever it gives him a time noted at SWCC.
Normally at arrival within 30 Min. That call is Made. By the Superintendent or their Dispatch to their Region Dispatch or in this case to the National Center SWCC.
At that Point Marsh should have put the Crew unavailable at a minimum till 0900 the next morning. Since that was a regular Day off he could have not put them available till Tuesday Morning and been fully justified. From what I am seeing they were SUN. and MON. Days off on there normal schedule.
Point missed—On a Forest the Forest Dispatch on call Disp. is notified of the release of the Crew or other overhead back to base and estimated time of arrival 24 hours a day even calls in the middle of the night.
As a City Fire department I would assume that would go to the 911 Dispatch but who knows?
I’m going to repost this to the top, because it’s WAY downstream and I think it is relevant to our conversation up here about GMHS.
————————————————————–
I wrote on NOVEMBER 23, 2015 AT 8:56 PM:
The second interesting thing I found was this, from the Seattle Times:
“Blinded by smoke, firefighters drove off road to their deaths, report says”
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/please-we-need-help-report-describes-deadly-twisp-firefight/
The article is pretty much boiler plate, but two comments caught my eye.
“Karljf 1 day ago
As a thirty-five year fire Captain that has been a wildland firefighter and is a wildland/structural firefighter in Bend, Oregon today, these young and life-experience-limited (kids) are making life-or-death decisions and aren’t “trained”, or have the years of experience that lead to better decisions.
We have to stop placing these young men and women in BAD places. It does mean that homes in the Wildland-Urban-Interface are going to burn down!
Don’t build there in the first place, and Agencies have to be able let them burn to the ground–99% of those homeowners have insurance! And, they pay a lot for because there is many times NO fire protection for those homes! But what I can’t understand is why we kill these people for trees and brush and grass. That is the greatest tragedy of all.
The 14 Prineville Hotshots were the beginning of this long list of tragedies–stop the insanity.”
And then this
“Lucky Girl 23 hours ago
@Karljf Not trying to Monday morning QB this but… I also have over 30 years fire experience- I’m a type III IC, Type I Safety Officer.
1. We always trained to back vehicles into dead end roads so that they were always facing out.
2. In a burn over situation the structure is your first choice to escape the fire.
3. Set hard trigger points, such as if the wind changes direction we pull back to the safety zone, no question asked.
Lastly I completely agree with you that we are putting FF’s with too little experience into very complex situations that they don’t have the experience to fully comprehend.”
———————————————————————–
I just found it interesting that those two seasoned WFF’s immediately were struck by the issue of how young and inexperienced these fire-fiighters are who are being inserted into these complex and quickly expanding and growing and changing wildfires in the Wildland-Urban Interface.
I hadn’t seen that mentioned before. And read lots of comments on Wildfire Today and elsewhere.
And thanks for the replies to that comment downstream.
But nobody caught what I was thinking as I posted it. That’s my fault, so I want to re-post it.
They were just kids.
Hotshots gain experience much more quickly than regulars because of the fact that they have so many hours on the fireline during a ‘good’ wildfire season…but they were still just kids.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I’m gonna take a much stronger stance on this one.
Yeah, I agree, ‘they were just kids,’ however they were ADULTS working in the ADULT profession of Wildland Firefighting, deemed to be ‘INHERENTLY DANGEROUS.’ Moreover, these KIDS were working as trained and qualified WFF in one of the most epic fire seasons in the Pacific Northwest in general and the Okanogan/Wenatchee NF in particular.
A perusal of the Wildcad link below for the Washington DNR record reveals LARGE wildfires beginning in late June. These KIDS, though mostly green, had a very active Summer to learn about local fire weather and local fire behavior. I cannot say for certain, yet it is VERY LIKELY that these fairly green, inexperienced WFF worked on at least a few of the larger fires listed in the Wildcad record. AND they should have known the basic WFF Rules forward and backward by the time of the Twisp Canyon Fire on August 19, 2015 – and if not, then there is a larger supervisory issue as well.
http://www.wildcad.net/WAopen.asp
It was clear that those on the left flank (likely ‘just kids’ here too) ostensibly followed ‘The WFF Rules’ when it was their turn with the wind, embers, heat, and smoke in their faces. Why? Because they followed ‘The WFF Rules,’ e.g. LCES. Oh but maybe they just got lucky some might say. Nope, no such thing as luck in the WFF world. Luck? Really? Do you get X-amount of ‘lucks’ when you’re born, and you use them up through your life?
From a Human Factors perspective, it appears that those on the right flank MAY have slipped into “relying on their most familiar habits” instead of their WFF training.
No telling …. texting, video games, WTF?
Human Factors expert Daniel Goelman (2012) found that “STRESS MATTERS. WHEN STRESSED WE ARE INHIBITED IN PRACTICING NEW WAYS OF ACTING AND WE RESORT TO RELYING ON OUR MOST FAMILIAR HABITS.”
Similarly, Sydney Dekker (2000) researched “TUNNELING” or “FIXATION” – LOCKING ON TO ONE EXPLANATION OF YOUR WORLD WHERE BEHAVIOR IS THEN EVENT DRIVEN AND IT IS DIFFICULT TO PREDICT AND INFLUENCE FUTURE SITUATIONS. (The Field Guide to Human Error)
It’s unlikely that the CRAP Team will investigate or look into this and discover this is likely one of the reasons they f**ked up and got burned, burned over, and died!
And BTW, this resorting to familiar habits also occurred on June 30, 2013 with the GMHS while talking to the Air Attack and/or Bravo 33 when they repeatedly referred to themselves as Granite Mountain 7. There is/was NO Granite Mountain 7. They were stressed to the point of near-death and resorted to their former moniker was CREW 7. So, they resorted to what they were most familiar with.
Excellent point… and I believe you are absolutely correct.
That IS what happened that afternoon.
It was almost the ‘poster example’ of what that research was saying.
It happens.
Friend of mine got into a bad accident once outside where we were working and we were the first ones to him. He had moved to the area about a year before. He was OK ( physically ) but still completely stressed out. We asked him who we should call. He said “My wife” and gave us a phone number as clearly as possible.
Turns out that phone number was where he lived BEFORE moving over a year ago. It was where he had lived for 6 years PRIOR to that.
That’s why anyone who might get into emergency situations MUST TRAIN… and train… and train… and train… and train.
You TRAIN until the point where the only physical muscle memories AND mental decision making memories you have are the RIGHT ones, and not anything you might have thought BEFORE the training.
Other ‘poster example’ there is the fact that MOST of the GM crew did NOT throw their packs and everything else TOTALLY clear of the deployment area before going into shelters.
They hadn’t trained ENOUGH to have that ‘move’ be absolutely ingrained in their muscle memory. You pull your shelter AND throw your pack… not pull your shelter and DROP your pack.
Travis Turbyfill’s father has already reported that his son’s autopsy report showed he had GASOLINE products in his lungs and his bloodstream when he died.
WTKTT,
Furthermore, instead of the FECKLESS attempt at actually cutting a DEPLOYMENT Zone in heavy brush for 2 to 3 minutes, they should have dropped their packs and saws and RUN the 580 yards or 0.33 miles in WELL UNDER 3.07 minutes, based on research that indicated that 60% of the US population can run one mile in nine (9) minutes. Just do the math.
In other words, they could have and should have made it to the BSR in under 3 minutes, possibly using the buildings as heat sinks, likely having to deploy fire shelters, and likely receiving some burns, and likely alive.
That wasted endeavor was NOT heroic or any other BS phrase attempting to glorify them and their actions, it was STUPID and it was deadly.
RTS,
Yeah, I see what your saying & I agree with you. Thank you.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Here’s a couple classic fatality fires I’m sure you’re familiar with and back to the YHF where stress influenced leadership.
South Canyon Fire – (1994) CO BLM – 14 fatalities – IC Mackey sharpening chainsaw instead of managing resources
Thirtymile Fire – (2001) WA FS – 4 fatalities – IC Daniels using hose and nozzle instead of managing resources
Yarnell Hill Fire – (2013) AZ State – 19 fatalities – Crew overhead relying on an unbroken chain of past practices of Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes
And the way to avoid this is realistic,recurring training like those in the Special Forces or as Karl Weick puts it: “In times of the highest stress, trained individuals fall back on their ‘highest level of overtraining’”. South Canyon Revisited. (USFS – MTDC)
Thanks for taking the brunt of my venting; I knew you’d have the stones and you’d understand. Like Gary, I’m still really angry about this whole thing and how these GMHS supervisors abdicated their foremost responsibility to keep those they supervised safe and sound.
RTS:
No problem. I say stupid shit sometimes when I’m pissed. I really just meant that they were so young, but I do agree with your correction. I’ve learned to appreciate it as I’ve gotten older. My Pops was career military officer. On his deathbed, when he could barely still speak to me, I thanked him for whooping my ass when I needed it growing up. What a father/son moment that was. My Pops only said one thing to me in response, “it’s called leadership.” Haha!! God love him, he was command and control to the end. A little dramatic of a story in this context, I know, but it’s one of my favorites that I share every chance I get.
At Yarnell, regarding ‘Crew overhead relying on an unbroken chain of past practices of Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes,’ how much of this phenomenon in your opinion was related to the culture clash between wildland and municipal?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Woodsman says on November 24, 2015 at 10:44 pm: “At Yarnell, regarding ‘Crew overhead relying on an unbroken chain of past practices of Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes,’ how much of this phenomenon in your opinion was related to the culture clash between wildland and municipal?”
Some of this I covered on my first reply to you. In the July 2013 News Conference, the GMHS supervisor, Darrel Willis, the PFD Wildland Fire Battaliion Chief was definitely trying to DEFEND his men and their actions. I only kinda get that, but why not just tell the truth. He considered them his sons. So, I’ll you HIS quotes (sometimes paraphrases) to answer your questions.
These are not necessarily in the chronological order of the interview. Here’s a link for part 1 of 2 of the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1lBgicPq5A
I’m assuming that he HAD TO KNOW at least SOME if no most of their steady Drift Into Failure and their unsafe actions were to blame for their deaths.
““They [GMHS] emphasized … (LCES), … ,however, there are points during that workday … you don’t have all of those standards in place … especially with them moving, … you couldn’t leave anybody behind. … wouldn’t have left anybody behind.“ REALLY? WTF? He’s saying they stressed the use of LCES then contradicts himself and attempts to justify why one would not or could not comply.
“… just one of those things that happened … you can call [it] an accident … God had a different plan for that Crew.” REALLY? WTF? It was merely an accident, unavoidable, not their fault …
In answering a journalist’s question about how common it was to burn Safety Zones out for themselves he says it was “… a very common occurrence … backfiring [around yourself to create a S/Z] …” NEGATIVE! WTF? This could have been regarding the ‘NEVADA FIRE’ referred to during the Squad Boss position interviews.
“ … no [WFF] is satisfied sitting there [in a S/Z] and watching the fire progress w/o … taking some action …” REALLY? WTF? I would say that almost all of us WFF are satisfied watching the Big Dog Eat while sitting in our SZ and waiting to re-engage after the fire makes its run.
“died with honor – stuck together – saw / felt the same way” This is definitely a Municipal/Structure/Wildland Fire Department attitude, including some Groupthink.
“protected themselves as a last resort … picked the best location in this bowl … “ REALLY? WTF? This is also definitely a Municipal/Structure/Wildland Fire Department attitude about structures first and FF safety last. And we are trained NOT to deploy shelters in chimneys, chute, and bowls!
And one of my all-time favorites is this one: “ …**WHY DO FF RUN INTO BURNING BUILDINGS** it’s ingrained in them … not going to sit up there when there’s potential for people to be at risk somewhere.” REALLY? WTF? Structure FF have much heavier PPE and oxygen and more compared to WFF PPE.
He uses the **Fallacy of False Equivalence or False Analogy** enormous ‘leap’ from wildland perspective to a municipal stance of ‘structures first – WFF last’
Willis was the OPS on a SWA Type 2 IMT on the Thompson Ridge Fire on the Santa Fe NF in northern NM in May 2013. GMHS were working that fire. One of his radio briefings regarding protecting structures was for the Resources to “HOLD THAT LINE AT ALL COSTS.“ REALLY? WTF? At all costs? Isn’t that what the military does? Isn’t this a Municipal/Structure Fire attitude?
Willis was the STPS on the YH Fire at the Double Bar-A Ranch – with an Engine S/T (maybe 7 vehicles and 30+ WFF). His designated, predetermined Safety Zone was actually Two side-by-side Tennis Courts. This was NOT a viable “Safety” Zone but instead, a Deployment Zone. ADOSH issued a citation on this.
The Municipal/Structure/Wildland attitude of “Structures first – WFF safety as a “last resort”
The attitude of it’s “Just one of those things that happened,” although this may not necessarily be specific or even general Municipal/Structure/Wildland attitude.
Selective application of and/or adherence to WFF Rules is most DEFINITELY a Municipal/Structure/Wildland attitude.
Then there is McDonough’s ADOSH Interview statements:
“If you risk a lot, you save a lot and you could save a house …”
Another one of my favorites here. When asked by Investigators if the GMHS followed the 10 and 18, he said “Yeah we had the 10 and 18, however, we had issues with FO #10, Fight fire aggressively, providing for safety. It’s – it’s hillbilly. It’s what it is. … It’s old. … We’re smart. We’re a lot smarter. … we had 19 people die … they’re [10/18] not working.” REALLY? You were SO f**king smart that your whole Crew died. Really f**king smart asshole!
Definitely not clear what actually caused them to die, he believes the 1990 Dude Fire fatalities were the result of a storm. He says that this was “[Not] the first time someone’s died from a storm, … Something’s not being done right. … “ REALLY? WTF? You have to actually APPLY the 10 and 18 for them to work.
Doubletalk and double negative here with this answer: “not that it wasn’t a wrong decision. … didn’t work out.“ REALLY? WTF? And once again, you have to actually APPLY the 10 and 18 for them to work.
He also says that “…certain things you just do” when attempting to justify unsafe habits. REALLY? WTF?
Young, inexperienced WFF’s don’t come up with this on their own, they are coached into these attitudes!
Hopefully, these answered your questions.
Amazing ’roundup’ there, RTS.
Thanks for that.
it really does boggle the mind the amount of ‘total fail’ being demonstrated before / during / and AFTER this incident.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Doubletalk and double negative here with this
>> answer: “not that it wasn’t a wrong decision. …
>> didn’t work out.“ REALLY? WTF? And once
>> again, you have to actually APPLY the 10
>> and 18 for them to work.
For Brendan… seems he was TAUGHT ( and allowed to BELIEVE ) that when you are a ‘Hotshot’… there is no such thing as a bad decision… only (possibly) bad outcomes.
“Risk a lot. Save a lot. Fuck YEAH!”
And also allowed to believe that ‘a lot’ actually means empty piles of lumber, drywall and shingles.
I think you answered Woodman’s question.
The actual relation between this new culture of ‘hybrid’ FF and the mix of structural firefighting and wildland firefighting couldn’t have possibly been more tragically on display as it was that day in Yarnell.
But “No one did anything wrong”.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.
WTKTT,
And lest we forget the Marine Corps/Military influence as well. These posts are from the military.com online magazine.
“On June 30, … they [GMHS Marines] … had a mission to accomplish [to] … protect the community of Yarnell — and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.”
And then there was Willis’ interview:
“… They did it always to protect others. Every person there knew that they were gonna protect … Yarnell. And if they laid down their life, it’s just like the Marines, they knew what they had to do and there couldn’t be any more honorable way to die than the way they died.”
http://www.military.com/video/specialties-and-personnel/veterans/marine-vet-killed-fighting-wildfire/2581462564001/
Likely, their Marine Corps/Military training influenced these WFF to follow stupid,
unsafe, although, lawful orders and willingly leave good, safe black! See John Reed’s paper title ‘ The Morality of Following Stupid Orders.’
REALLY? WTF? I’m just f**king following orders, orders, let’s go boys!
The Morality of Following Stupid Orders – John Reed
http://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-blog-about-military-matters/68973251-the-morality-of-obeying-stupid-orders
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on November 24, 2015 at 7:39 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It’s unlikely that the CRAP Team will investigate or look into this
>> and discover this is likely one of the reasons they f**ked up
>> and got burned, burned over, and died!
Hopefully… OSHA will. The US Forestry Service can live in a dream-world but people that go to work every day investigating workplace accidents and deaths know what to ‘look for’.
Hasn’t been mentioned yet ( and maybe OSHA already has this written up and ready to present )… but after reading this USFS CRAP report it’s an absolute MIRACLE that they weren’t hauling bodies down from Woods Canyon Road for days following the incident.
It’s a MIRACLE that ANY of those Engines ( and crews ) got out of there after such a catastrophic LCES failure.
That road was NOT an ‘Escape Route’.
It was right on that eastern edge of the active fire itself.
ANY wind change at all and ( if you were up there ) you were gonna be screwed.
Forget about even the ‘objectives’ for being ‘up there’ at all being absurd ( protecting EMPTY piles of lumber, drywall and shingles )… the TACTICAL blunder alone was astounding and should at least end up with a ‘Lesson Learned’ along the lines of exactly what Chief Don Waller himself said…
“DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD… OR ANYTHING IN THE FUTURE THAT EVEN RESEMBLES IT.”
There was NOTHING up there worth risking all those lives and ( yes ) all that expensive equipment.
I don’t know if folks here caught it, but Wildfire Today published this on Wednesday, November 20;
“DNR sued over failure to suppress fire that became the Carlton Complex”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/11/20/dnr-sued-over-failure-to-suppress-fire-that-became-the-carlton-complex/
“Three landowners are suing the Washington state Department of Natural Resources, accusing the agency of negligence in not initially putting out the Golden Hike Fire that later merged with three others to become the Carlton Complex. The fire developed into the largest in the recorded history of the state, burning 256,108 acres and approximately 300 homes in July, 2014 in and around the towns of Pateros and Malott.
The suit contends that the DNR did not respond promptly to the fire, ‘abandoned fire lines early in the evening [on the first day] and did not return until morning’, and prevented local volunteers and residents from fighting the fire.”
Sound familiar?
“Their attorney, Alex Thomason, represents more than other 200 clients who also lost their homes and property. If this suit is successful it could open the door to hundreds of millions of dollars in damages.
A similar case came after the 1985 Barker Mountain Fire that burned 25,000 acres in northeast Washington, including 5,000 acres of private land. The plaintiffs whose property was damaged argued that the DNR was negligent in fighting the fire since they withdrew the firefighters at the end of the first day to get rest and then reassigned them to one of many others that were burning at the same time. The case made it to the state Supreme Court where the judges upheld the decision that the state was indeed negligent, confirming the $2.6 million award to the plaintiffs.”
Of course, the issues in Yarnell are not the same.
But, apparently, it is possible to hold these agencies accountability when they take authority on a fire and screw things up.
Sounds like Yarnell–there is no money in putting out a small fire –no one blames the troops here for their negligence–we just accept the fact that their derelection of duty actually created millions in funds that benefited the fire fighting community with high cotton. Not only that some even got awards for their feeble efforts. Seems one wasn’t awarded the mayorship like he exoected but he got an ample retirement with awards. When will people wake up to what is happening with their tax dollars. That is why responsible investigations need to be put onto every fire that of late has been allowed to ballon into a muti million dollar drain off of tax payer dollars. The American citizen has every right to know why a simple lightning strike was allowed to turn into a multimillion dollar business. Certainly those in fault of allowing the escalation of that fire did not intentionally cause the death of 19 men but their lack of foresight did. What happened to that old forest manager that said get these fires out and now?
SONNY! Welcome back! I’m sure my note to you about how I bet you did not want to miss the Granite Mountain Hotshot State Park dedication and how I was sure Karen Fann, Amanda Marsh, Darrell Fucking Willis and the Pfingtons were all praying that you and Joy make it there to dance with cowbells on made all of the difference? Your welcome!
Thanks for the welcome back Gary. We certainly will not be interferring with their meeting of the minds on a memorial. Sad they can not or will not see that that would serve to a more noble purpose as a training ground to keep future inexperienced fighters from making the same mistakes those young men did. I do not blame the younger ones at all and even Steed and Marsh had some mitigation perhaps with superiors breathing down their backs. As far as the planning carried on by that committee goes—it will be akin to the actual investigation we saw. No input will count except that already put in by those involved and those to gain.
Here is some thing to chew on. Seems we hang in here long enough and we forget pertenent information that came early on.
Joy on her birthday showed me a document on like where that 20 acres had been restricted June 16 two weeks before those men burned. I remember seeing the document and the date of restriction and I told her hell that guy was probably drunk and wrote in the wrong date. We realized a week or so later that we ought to get a copy of that document but it now was deleted from files and now where to be located. I told her that might prove a theory I had that they wanted to burn that hill off and had restricted it some two weeks before. I know what I saw but Joy even knew the date we saw it.
Today we had information that the Helms had been brush cleared for defensible space just two weeks before the fire. Since the Helms have an income of ten million I am sure they keep it up and that would be just a coincidence–or was it? I have no idea what they do to earn their money but it must be damn important to the feds and whatever it is important to the nation.
Next comes Charley Mosely now deceased. He was indeed retired CIA if they do and he did give us a little warning–in matters as serious as this fire business take much care–you want to stay alive. Fortunately some of you are much better at investigating this and have uncovered so much more than I or Joy could do so I no longer feel threatened except I do feel some of these yahoos would like a shot at me.
Dr.Ted Putnam was a great friend of Charlies and they hobnobbed. Ted is pretty quiet about the whole thing but one thing I asked him after a couple hikes was would they start a back burn to save Yarnell. He said not likely but if they did it would be more to save the Helms ranch. I never understood that nor asked him why he said that. Maybe when I see him again he will explain why he said that.
I still think some of those big bosses ordered the ranch attempt and that Marsh and maybe Steed did not want to go. Either way they obviously are both at fault along with whomever was breathing hot fire down their back to go down.
I don’t see the FBI involved here afrerall since it seems bigger than the I can imagine–and now I wonder how often I bring them a laugh that are in charge of keeping the going smooth and dedicating memorials to foolish acts. No training ground either since it would not be cookie cutter.
Perhaps there will be some consideration of the deadliness of the agent orange they drop on old folks and fish but I even have my doubts on that. I am however looking forward to your book finished–I know it won’t be anything less than enlightening and a boon to the wildland firefighting community.
As some old cowboy said “too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence”.
WTKTT said “So either this is evidence that Granite Mountain was ‘fudging time sheets’ just prior to Yarnell… OR ( if they were NOT doing that ) they were breaking the 2:1 work/rest rule even the day before they died.”
WHOA! WTKTT…when I scolded you and said we need to work on your people skills, I didn’t mean that I want you to get all mushy on us. I am afraid that the pendulum is starting to swing the other way and we still need your rapier like wit…and charm.
Let’s call it for what it is…theft by fraud. And FYI for all of you faithful taxpayers out there…that is NOT standard operating procedure. At least it wasn’t in my day. WTF…Over?
I am actually building up to a major rant on the USFS, but it is going to have to wait until after this week because my dear wife wants to go spend the week staying in a cabin at an historic lodge in the Olympic National Park because it is so wet and green up there, as opposed to where we are right now, where everything is…so wet and green.
But I do have some good news for you for all of my bitchin’…my trials and tribulations with my dear wife are cheaper than a divorce! It’s been 40 years, but is seems like it has been much, much, much…longer.
And I hate to be the one to keep introducing federal law into this discussion, much less felony violations of federal law…but that is what we are talking about here. And although we are WAY over the threshold to meet the criteria for a felony, we are WAY under the threshold for a U.S. Attorney’s Office to prosecute said crime.
BUT…that doesn’t mean there isn’t and shouldn’t be administrative action taken to correct this situation (and the dumb shits signing off on this bullshit who either knew about it, or should have known about it…are not DEAD!).
“Fudging” your time sheet (and yes WTKTT I know your comment was intended to be dry sarcasm of which I, and now Woodsman are so fond of) means you round the fucking thing UP to the next quarter hour…you don’t falsify your time to reflect you are at work for entire evening when you are drinking alcohol and watching your kids swing! Much less belly up to the bar drinking with your buddies. That is not cool.
I don’t want to start down this road at this time, but I started out on this thread by ranting about the way the Prescott Fire Department was doing things, but now I rant about the way the United States Forest Circus is doing things.
Yes…I had to finally pull that one out of mothballs, whereas the BLM is the Bureau of Laughing Matter to air our dirty laundry in public, or the Bureau of Landowners and Miners, since they still regulate mining companies (and all of the big ones are owned by foreign interests) by the 1872 Mining Law, you know that was enacted in… 1872! What the fuck could be wrong with that law!
But now to get back on topic…and since I am a student of Wikipedia World History and for lack of a better analogy…the Prescott Fire Department is the equivalent of a village in Gaul being managed by a corrupt Roman administrator while Nero or maybe Caligula is running things back at home. Long story short…the whole fucking system has been corrupted and is now rotten to the core. And I used to bleed green when I was cut!
Which brings me back to the Granite Mountain Hotshots! Let’s take our hapless hero for example. The stupid shit is an ALCOHOLIC! And I don’t hate alcoholics, one of my old squad bosses died as a very young man from cirrhosis of the liver and other related alcoholic disease and it still haunts me to this day because his wife asked me to intercede with him and I told her, Awhh hell…he just likes a beer every now and again…repeat often (Macho men didn’t interfere with other macho men’s drinking habits because we were well…macho men). He called me up years later after I was working for the BLM in Phoenix to tell me goodbye.
So our alcoholic hotshot along with some of his hotshot buddies, all had a head start down on Whiskey Row in Prescott (do you know why they call it “Whiskey Row”?) by 1930 hours at the latest while they were on the clock on a federal payroll (I think, the fire they were coming off of was federal…as in U.S. Forest Circus?) probably without eating dinner (now I am sounding like a Jewish mother, that isn’t derogatory to the Jewish people is it? If it is, I do sincerely apologize) except for maybe some bar peanuts until the bars closes…no good hotshot, alcoholic or otherwise ever leaves the bar until it closes. And then they are on their way to a fucking wildfire that is getting ready to eat Peeples Valley and all of Karen Fann’s buddies ranches by 0600 hours? Are you fucking kidding me…no really…are you fucking kidding me!
And then CAPTAIN Steed assigns our hapless hero to be their fucking LOOKOUT because he is under the weather due to a recent cold virus or some bullshit? Hung the FUCK over and still DRUNK is more like it! And Sonny and Joy reports the crew looked tired and spent hiking up the mountain to their deaths. Hung the FUCK over and still DRUNK is more like it!
So back to our felony violations of federal law which will never be prosecuted but they should be investigated…off the top of my head we have fraud, theft, conspiracy and the good ole standby 18 USC 1001. WTF…Over?
I now believe the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew under the leadership of Eric Marsh and direction of Darrell Fucking Willis did not believe ANY of the rules applied to them. And without ANY oversight from responsible leaders they were a train wreck looking for a place to happen and they finally found it on the Yarnell Hill Fire! And the rest is wildland firefighting history.
Adding the SAIT left out some very basic information that should have been included in the report Like the Hours worked prior to Yarnell and the lack of time off including the 2:1 rule.
There was a real major fatigue factor here along with some other very serious problems.
I agree with Gary.
in his book… Kyle Dickman said two things about the condition of the crew as they were working the ‘Mount Josh’ fire down near Skull Valley on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
1. John Percin actually suffered HEAT STROKE that day… yet there he was the next morning heading to Yarnell with the others.
2. Dickman says that all day Saturday the crew was ‘irritable’ because they were ALREADY suffering from lack of sleep due to the previous 7 days straight working long shifts on the Doce fire. Then they were up again at 5:00 AM and heading to Yarnell… but they would never come back.
Thank you Bob! That cements it. We have two generations of old school hotshot crew bosses who agree…done deal!
Oh…and one more thing. I still don’t blame the GMIHC as a whole. I am sure they had the potential to be a good crew, they just never got the chance to become one because they were run by a chronic, habitual, Terminal Fuck Up.
I take back what I said earlier on this thread that if he were with me today, I would bitch (non-gender specific) slap him and then hug him while we cried together. Now I would just bitch (non-gender specific) slap him!
“I am actually building up to a major rant on the USFS”
Can I republish it to Daily Kos?
Seriously. I’ve been hinting around there that I might start writing about the Yarnell Fire and the ruinous state of USFS and State Agencies when it comes to wildland fire-fighter safety and their white-washed investigations. But I just didn’t know where to start.
And I probably won’t really start til after the New Year, cuz of………..stuff.
“United States Forest Circus” — PERFECT!!!j
Thanks for clarifying the situation regarding the time reports. I’ve never quite been able to wrap my brain around all the time rules/protocols. The conversation here about this stuff has been very helpful for me to read.
If you are talking about my rant…yes, my rants are free to be published anywhere by anybody, they now belong to everyone who wants them and I intended them for the good of the order.
Thanks, Gary!
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 24, 2015 at 9:19 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> WTKTT said “So either this is evidence that Granite Mountain
>> was ‘fudging time sheets’ just prior to Yarnell… OR ( if they
>> were NOT doing that ) they were breaking the 2:1 work/rest
>> rule even the day before they died.”
>>
>> WHOA! WTKTT…when I scolded you and said we need to
>> work on your people skills, I didn’t mean that I want you to get
>> all mushy on us. I am afraid that the pendulum is starting to
>> swing the other way and we still need your rapier like
>> wit…and charm.
>>
>> Let’s call it for what it is…theft by fraud. And FYI for all of you
>> faithful taxpayers out there…that is NOT standard operating
>> procedure. At least it wasn’t in my day. WTF…Over?
>>
>> “Fudging” your time sheet (and yes WTKTT I know your comment
>> was intended to be dry sarcasm of which I, and now Woodsman
>> are so fond of) means you round the fucking thing UP to the
>> next quarter hour…you don’t falsify your time to reflect you are
>> at work for entire evening when you are drinking alcohol and
>> watching your kids swing! Much less belly up to the bar drinking
>> with your buddies. That is not cool.
No. It’s not.
The reasons I was being ‘careful’ with that statement are…
1. I knew very well that I was about to suggest that there is now concrete evidence that people who others want to think were 100 percent ‘heroes’ and deserving of larger-than-life bronze statutes in the desert were actually CHEATING the system and committing punishable offenses.
2. Some of the individuals involved in whatever payroll FRAUD and/or CRIMES *might* have been committed are still very much alive ( and still *possibly* doing the same thing? ).
3. The reason I just said ‘Granite Mountain’ and didn’t name anyone is because we honestly don’t know WHO in the GM organization actually submitted those June 28 and June 29 timesheets. As the discussion below about the resource orders was proving there is/was some confusion about whether Eric Marsh really HAD been fully ‘restored’ to his GM Superintendent position following his bike accident and Jesse Steeds promotion to Superintendent. So it MAY have been Eric Marsh submitting those timesheets… or it now MAY have been Jesse Steed’s job… or it MAY have been someone else.
Those timesheets are handwritten. I’m in the process of comparing the handwriting to the other known documents in Marsh’s and Steed’s personnel files showing what their handwriting looks like. There might be an ‘obvious match’ there. Dunno yet.
4. The ONLY reason we have what seems to be ‘proof’ that at least the Saturday, June 29 GM Timesheet was BOGUS is because they ended up dying the next day… and who they were and what they were doing the night before Yarnell then became media-attention level information. It’s very likely that when someone is ‘gaming the system’ like that… they don’t just do it every once in a while ( like only on Saturday, June 29 )… but there’s no real proof of anyone’s actual ‘whereabouts’ for any day other than the day before they died. There would have to be a lot more interviews with Brendan McDonough, Brandon Bunch, and any other still-living former GM Hotshot to ‘figure out’ how many OTHER time sheet submissions might also be ‘padded’ or ‘bogus’.
>> Gary Olson also wrote…
>>
>> So our alcoholic hotshot along with some of his hotshot buddies,
>> all had a head start down on Whiskey Row in Prescott (do you
>> know why they call it “Whiskey Row”?) by 1930 hours at the latest
>> while they were on the clock on a federal payroll (I think, the fire
>> they were coming off of was federal…as in U.S. Forest Circus?)
The GM Timesheets say, without a doubt, that on Friday,June 28, they were working the ‘West Spruce Fire’ on the Prescott National Forest. Other media articles talked about this and one even had quotes from ( guess who? ) Jason Clawson… who was supposedly their supervisor that Friday night. I don’t think Jason Clawson is the AFMO whose signature is showing on the Friday timesheet.
As per Kyle Dickman’s book… GM worked most of the night building line on that ‘West Spruce’ fire… and when they were finally allowed to get some sleep they did it in some nearby campground on the Prescott National Forest.
The next morning ( now Saturday, June 29 ) they were sent to ANOTHER fire start-up farther south, at Mount Josh in the Skull Valley area about mid-way between Prescott and Yarnell.
MOUNT JOSH is, in fact, smack in the middle of the ‘Prescott National Forest’… so YES… they would ( technically ) still have been working for PNF and Jason Clawson on Saturday like they were on Friday… but Kyle Dickman seems to say they were sent down to ‘Skull Valley’, which is not necessarily on the Prescott National Forest at all.
The weirdness with the TIME sheets on this is that the FIRE NUMBER on the GM timesheets for both these ‘West Spruce’ and ‘Mount Josh’ fires is identical.
* Just the TOP of the GM Time sheet for Friday, June 28, 2013…
—————————————————————————–
Crew Name: Granite Mountain Hotshots
Crew Number: 2
Office Responsible for Fire: PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
Fire Name: West Spruce
Fire Number: P3EKV8 ( aka: West Spruce Fire )
Date: 06/28/13 ( Friday, June 28, 2013 )
—————————————————————————-
* Just the TOP of the GM Time sheet foSaturday, June 29, 2013
—————————————————————————–
Crew Name: Granite Mountain Hotshots
Crew Number: 1
Office Responsible for Fire: PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
Fire Name: Mount Josh
Fire Number: P3EKV8 ( aka: West Spruce Fire )
Date: 06/29/13 ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 )
—————————————————————————–
NOTICE that in BOTH CASES ( Friday and Saturday ), the ‘Fire Number’ is the SAME ( P3EKV8 ) even though they were two different fires in two different locations.
‘Mount Josh’ was also mentioned in other articles including that one written in September, 2013, by InvestigateMEDIA, John Dougherty, and the Phoenix New Times.
It was the article where the Phoenix New Times was refusing Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis’ written request for a retraction of John Dougherty’s “Lambs to the Slaughter” article. Phoenix New Times was agreeing to publish ‘minor corrections’… but they were standing by the rest of the article 100 percent.
The Phoenix New Times
Yarnell Hill Fire: Prescott’s Wildlands Fire Commander Responds
to New Times’ Cover Story on Granite Mountain Hotshots
Published: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 by Phoenix New Times
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-prescotts-wildlands-fire-commander-responds-to-new-times-cover-story-on-granite-mountain-hotshots-6634370
From the article…
——————————————–
But the recently released records show that Marsh worked on the Doce Fire from June 18 to 25, the West Spruce Fire on June 28, and the Mt. Josh Fire on June 29.
——————————————–
The ‘recently released records’ phrase in that article is a ‘clickable link’ that takes you straight to the two GM Timesheet documents that I just recently posted about.
The focus of that part of the article and the reference to these GM Timesheets submitted for Friday, June 28 and Saturday, June 29 was just trying to ‘figure out’ ( since on official reports had come out yet ) whether Yarnell really was the first time Marsh had rejoined the Crew as Superintendent since his bike accident… and also trying to figure out WHY the SWCC had initially said GM was not available for the Yarnell assignment.
The NewTime article was NOT focusing on the ‘work hours’. being reported and/or whether or not they might be BOGUS.
Only ADOSH requested/received the actual Prescott Payroll documents long after this article came out… and that confirmed that the hours being claimed for the entire crew for both Friday and Saturday made it all the way from those original GM Timesheets signed by Fire officials into the Prescott Payroll records.
But again… ADSOH wasn’t looking at all that to try and see if any of it was BOGUS or not. ADOSH was doing the same thing NewTimes originally was and just trying to figure out whether GM really had ( or had not ) met the tripwire for MANDATORY rest that Sunday, June 30, 2013.
>> Gary Olson also wrote…
>>
>> So back to our felony violations of federal law which will never
>> be prosecuted but they should be investigated…off the top of
>> my head we have fraud, theft, conspiracy and the good ole
>> standby 18 USC 1001. WTF…Over?
And if this kind of ( ongoing? ) fraud ever DOES get investigated… you know very well yourself that when it comes to this kind of possible ‘payroll fraud’ and ‘overcharging’… question numero doce (two) is always… “Was the extra money being collected for bogus hours actually going to the employees for whom those hours are being claimed… or was the ‘extra’ money getting ‘skimmed off’ at some point in the delivery chain going ‘somewhere else’?”
Followup ( on reply to Gary Olson )
And as you know yourself from experience… once you go ‘down the road’ in an investigation of possible payroll fraud… there’s no telling what you might find.
If you find evidence of it happening even just ONCE… the odds are that it was happening OFTEN.
But even then… it’s that age old question “Who knew what, when”.
It’s doubtful that anyone on the crew ever SAW these ‘GM Timesheets’ as were obtained via Arizona Open Records law.
Likewise… it’s doubtful anyone on the crew ever SAW the same kind of payroll record ‘dumps’ from Prescott Payroll department that ADOSH obtained.
All the crew ever saw ( probably ) were their paychecks.
So any ‘investigation’ has to take a look at ‘who was seeing what’ and whether they were even AWARE of any ‘overbilling’ that might have been taking place.
As you also know…. if you get a little down the road in an investigation like that… you often come across “TWO sets of BOOKS”. One is for the people receiving the paychecks for ACTUAL hours… and the other is for whoever is running the overcharge thing and making sure no employee ever comes up and says “Hey… sorry to bother you… but I think I just got paid a lot more than I was supposed to”.
Caveat for above: By ‘anyone on the crew’ I obviously meant ‘anyone on the crew other than whoever it was that was actually filling out and submitting those time sheets’.
I know what you were doing and why you were doing it. I don’t have to be careful…I don’t have any assets and good fucking luck finding all of the money I don’t have!
“I ” am talking about fucking CRIMINALS here!
It was already acknowledeged way back when… in the discussions about whether Prescott should fire up ANOTHER Type 1 Hotshot Crew… that there was this ‘confusion’ about whether GM was ‘self supporting’, or not.
It actually came down to suggestions that the City of Prescott seemed to have ‘one set of books’ that showed one thing… but Darrell Willis seemed to have ‘another set of books/numbers’ that showed something different.
Hmmm.
Maybe even just THAT ‘discrepancy’ in the ‘numbers’ was never looked at close enough to figure out why there was this ‘difference’ in how much money GM seemed to be making and why the City’s numbers didn’t seem to be matching Willis’ numbers.
WTKTT,
The “P-Code” for the Mount Josh and West Spruce Fires is the same – P3EKV8 – because it is considered a Miscellaneous ABC Fire (less than 100 acres). The ‘ABC’ are size classes from (A) 1/4 acre of less to (C) 99 acres. Here is a link from the November 2015 Wildcad.net for the Central AZ Zone which covers the Prescott NF.
http://www.wildcad.net/WCAZ-PDCopen.htm
Go to this link and hen to the bottom of the page and it will show the following:
“01/04/2015 07:20 PNF-2 P3EKV8 (0309) FY15 PNF ABCD Misc Resource Order Prescott NF Associated Resource Orders”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
November 24, 2015 at 12:57 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> The “P-Code” for the Mount Josh and West Spruce Fires is
>> the same – P3EKV8 – because it is considered a Miscellaneous
>> ABC Fire (less than 100 acres). The ‘ABC’ are size classes
>> from (A) 1/4 acre of less to (C) 99 acres.
Ah… okay… thank you. Good information.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Here is a link from the November 2015 Wildcad.net for
>> the Central AZ Zone which covers the Prescott NF.
>>
>> http://www.wildcad.net/WCAZ-PDCopen.htm
That’s great… thank you… but how do you access the same information for 2013?
I dare say the pittance those fellows stole and the felony it was is small potatoes to what is really going on here as far as theft goes. A situation that could easly been taken care of for a few hundred or less was allowed to balloon into millions and the deaths of the aforementioned time robbers. It reminds me of when I was mining and having to go back and rebolt what earlier miners had done. Instead of using the required six foot bolts, they had cheated and put in four footers which could not hold that cavey Uranium sandstone. Well they gained a lot since bolts were paying 1.50 so instead of $150 for a 100 count they were able to maintain a 150 count that paid $225. The result cost me a slab on my body and ended my career but like the non responders of Yarnell I suspect their increase in fire fighting funds did not come with the expectation that 19 men would be killed. Put all those involved in the Yarnell hill incident on a boat and send them to Syria.
Gary is a straight shooter and gives us fresh air== something the firefighting community is seeming fairly shy of although we have some honest front liners here. Dr. Ted Putnam was denied a hike to the site by local fire chief, sheriff department personnel and certain forest officials. Now you would think any of those departments would jump on the honor to hike a man who has 15 years of smoke jumping under his belt and now a Doctorate and qualifications that led him to become one of the worlds foremost fire death investigators. I can tell you that Joy and I did it with no hesitation and more than once. The point is what is going on here? Those are questions that FBI men ought to be asking.
Sonny…I normally agree with you, even on the fact that the fire should have been stopped. I always just say don’t blame Shumate, blame the Arizona State Legislature.
Nor am I talking about the pittance that may have been stolen for the GMIHC that they DID know about (unlike what WTKTT said)..as I have said before, wildland firefighting is about the fix of the adrenaline dump, and counting coup by tweaking the tail of the dragon, BUT it is also very much about the money.
I said last year that is what keeps firefighters awake while mopping up during night shifts, counting up their hours, H-pay etc., and running the numbers using their fingers and toes back in my day and on their smart phones now. They knew every hour they were getting paid for…just try shorting one of them an hour and you will find that out.
What I think WTKTT is talking about and I know I am talking about…is how much this added up to over a long period of time and the actual reasons for it would not have been a welfare program run amuck for the GMIHC BUT it would have been a giant welfare program run for the benefit of the FUCKING City of Prescott and to pacify the fucking city fathers and keep them from eliminating the crew by billing some really big numbers for fraudulently documented hours, overtime etc.,..that is what I am talking about!
And yes WTKTT…my long experience as a federal investigator who doubled as an internal affairs rat snitch bastard taught me that once you turn over a rock and look underneath it…a lot of slimy things often scurry for cover.
I am going to confirm what Gary has said here. Every last man knows the hours made. Part of the demob process is confirmation of the time records on the OF-288, “red dog.” There’s a long standing tradition of adding it all up day by day…scratched on the back of IAP’s etc. It’s still this way. Can be a morale booster on the tough days.
Woodsman
**
** MORE TWISP INITIAL REPORT ANALYSIS
Does everyone realize that there are absolutely NO NAMES of any of the AUTHORS of this piece of CRAP ( Coorgindate Response Accident Protocol ) document?
Zero. Zip. Nada.
There are also NO NAMES of ANYONE who might have assisted in the production of this document.
Part of the new CRAP protocol itself?
They don’t even have the spinal fluid to put their NAMES on it?
That’s what is bizarre about this document. It is DIDACTIC and there are times when it is speaking in the FIRST PERSON with direct ‘PLEAS’ to the ‘Reader’ like “Pretty please with sugar on top please don’t even think of trying to BLAME anyone for these 3 deaths”…
…but even when you reach the bottom of the document there are NO NAMES of any of the authors so we have no idea what ‘disembodied entity’ has been slinging the bullshit for the previous 24 pages.
In that respect… this new CRAP protocol format is just truly WEIRD.
I knew it was going to be ‘Dr. Suess’ level… but even Dr. Suess would SIGN his books and ‘own’ the content.
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) wrote ( regarding Twisp )…
>>
>> This is a typically complex initial attack situation and yet, there are
>> NO supervisors in the Operations level, e.g. OPS, Division/Group
>> Supervisors (DIVS), Task Force leaders (TFLD), etc. Only ‘points of contact.”
>> These folks were WAY out of sync with the basic Span of Control principle
>> of 5:1; Five Resources supervised by One Overhead.
But for all intents and purposes… this mysterious RFPOC ( Right Flank Point Of Contact ) who actually was the one who ORDERED Engine 642 to descend a compromised Escape Route WAS acting like a TLFD ( Task Force Leader )… correct?
He had at least FOUR Engines ( and their crews ) and a DOZER and a HEQB and a HEQB(t) all answering to HIM up there on Woods Canyon Road.
So one has to wonder… if he was ACTING as a TFLD…. did he even remotely have the red-card qualifications ( and experience ) to be doing that?
WTKTT,
Yes, you are correct. The RFPOC was in fact acting like a TFLD with the Resources he had. On Type 3 fires, Single Resource Bosses can function in various Overhead positions, including as DIVS and TFLD.
And here is a Google link for several NWCG Interagency Wildland Fire ‘Red Book’ that MAY help clarify some of your questions. I chose this link because I’m doing this from my phone and the Red Book is large. Take your pick.
https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/redbook/2015/RedBookAll.pdf
>> WTKTT said…
>>
>> Does everyone realize that there are absolutely NO NAMES of any of
>> the AUTHORS of this piece of CRAP ( Coordindated Response Accident
>> Protocol ) document?
When I posted that this evening I hadn’t noticed that Marti Reed had already posted THIS comment down below….
>> On November 23, 2015 at 10:11 pm, Marti Reed said…
>>
>> I find it interesting that this “Interagency Learning Review Status Report” has
>> no names attached to it. I’ve never seen that before. Even the Yarnell SAIR
>> had names attached to it; Accountability???
Yes… and how about ‘Credibility???
We’re supposed to just ‘swallow the kool-aid’ and not even know WHO ( exactly ) is passing out the cups?
And by US… I’m talking about TAXPAYERS and the people PAYING for all of this… ‘investigations’ ( cough, cough ) included.
If US Forestry isn’t willing to properly investigate ANYTHING… then I want them to just STOP wasting the ( my / yours / everyone’s ) money.
LOL!
I’m just waking/catching up.
IIRC Somewhere in the report I think it “likened” the “point of contact” to a DivS.
The other thing I found weird was that none of the maps have the location of the engine LODD on them. I’ve never seen that either. They have every house in the neighborhood marked but no fatality location. I had to read the report almost to the end to figure out where it was.
And then there was the “Wye.” Hello?
PS I had been too busy elsewhere to put your coordinates on Google Earth, so the report was my first orientation.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 24, 2015 at 10:09 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> The other thing I found weird was that none of the maps have
>> the location of the engine LODD on them. I’ve never seen that
>> either. They have every house in the neighborhood marked
>> but no fatality location. I had to read the report almost to the
>> end to figure out where it was.
That absolutely indicates that the USFS is taking this ‘sensitivity’ thing to an absurd level. It’s a REPORT about an ACCIDENT that really did happen on their watch… with their employees… and they believed it was a ‘choice’ to not even show where the accident happened out of some grossly-over-developed sense of ‘sensitivity’.
Sensitivity is fine… but there is also ‘taking that too far’.
By the way… apparently the people that this CRAP team was cooperating with that produced that YouTube video you found didn’t ‘get the memo’.
There IS a big red ‘X’ in the video showing the crash site.
It’s not 100 percent correct… but it’s close.
So it was OK with CRAP that a PUBLIC Youtube video with bad narration and crappy music show exactly where they crash was… but their official ( taxpayer funded ) report should NOT?
Unbelievable.
Yes. I think I noted that below.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.
It’s one of the first things that griped me when I read the report.
I’m sure the Team Leader had a hand in it. But who else?????
Nothing like accountability!
There were a LOT of people involved in producing this report.
There NAMES should be on it.
So gone are the days when the reports even need to be ‘signed off’ on by anyone before they are published?
That’s ( another ) bad, bad sign of things to come if this CRAP protocol is allowed to be come the new ‘standard’ for trying to explain to grieving family why they have one ( or more ) empty chairs at their tables.
Sonny is correct. Three more deaths was made known but one was not after the fire but six weeks before as this lady liked my humor in the Safeway line today—must of been in her 80’s- she began to talk and the cashier’s name was Holly and Nancy asked her was she named for Christmas and she said No—something to do with her mom being named Ernie— I replied with some funny way I was named—and this lit up this woman and thanked me for the joy and laughter from a complete stranger and I replied I know what you mean and said something funny again and they all just giggled- Holidays are hard for her because she lost her husband six weeks before she lost the home- this March they would be married 68 years and lost their home to a wildfire- she said her two sons were coming out- I explained are you talking about the YHF and she said YES, I LOST EVERYTHING THAT YEAR- her home and husband…and she has health concerns since as she just went to the doctors today—her name is Nancy L. Cameron – suing for $2,100,000—22661 S LAKEWOOD
DR.(https://www.google.com/maps/place/22661+Lakewood+Dr,+Congress,+AZ+85332/@34.2191874,-112.7628166,17z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d331b4de786fcd:0xae58b79f86bc012a)
I replied I remember her name because it was one of the properties that the assessor had wrong on destroyed list as partial and it was destroyed- and she really lost alot I felt—We went to gabbing and Sonny bought his kale and salad and stuff and just brushed by me and said see you later at the house but it was the way he did it I knew I better get—especially with his health and he wanted to drive geo tracker back and I drove the new car but she is in her 80s and look forward to seeing what kind of details she has—if I remember right she left Friday though on the 28th—
Also Sonny’s Neighbors—Clifford Horozinski & Shirley Horozinski – 23212 S. Barker Way are reported to be suing for $3,066,000 and they were out of town and came home to nothing…similiar
situations throughout the area—but what a shame—a good elderly loving sweet couple like them had BS from county to rebuild—
h ttp :/ /aq.co.yavapai.az.us/docs/2013/ BOS/20131202_503/6800_Support. p df
anyways still interesting years later we seem to be guided to more information on the YHF—
some day
some way
the truth will come…
Get Well Sonny-
you ol’ miner…cowboy…logger
73 deaths out of a population of roughly 600 is 12.1 percent of the population.
Someone needs to investigate this ( but someone who actually KNOWS how to
investigate this time instead of just ‘pretending’ that they do. )
Agree totally with both of you, Joy and WTKKT.
I wrote downstream to Sonny that we need to figure out how to get something done about this, but I don’t know what or how or who to begin with.
**
** GRANITE MOUNTAIN TIME SHEETS FOR JUNE 28 AND JUNE 29, 2013
Just a little over 2 months after the tragedy ( and before any ‘reports’ ever came out ) is when John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA published his article about how there was already mounting evidence that Granite Mountain should have never been allowed to go to Yarnell.
Then Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis actually demanded a ‘retraction’ on that original article, which didn’t happen. No reason to. The facts were there.
Some minor corrections were made in a followup article and that is when a link was published to two Granite Mountain TIME SHEETS for fires they were working right before Yarnell.
These were obtained with an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request and they are photo-copies of the actual hand-written TIME SHEETS submitted by either Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed… and SIGNED by the Fire officials they had actually been working for on June 28 and June 29, 2013.
Here is a link to that article…
NOTE: I have ‘masked’ the ‘h t t p’ part of this first URL so that the second URL below that points directly to the online copies of the timesheets will be the ‘one link per post’ for this message.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Prescott Wildlands Division Chief Darrell Willis demands
retraction of Granite Mountain Hotshot story
Published: September 10, 2013 By John Dougherty
h t t p ://www.investigativemedia.com/prescott-wildlands-division-chief-darrell-willis-demands-retraction-of-granite-mountain-hotshot-story/
The ‘recently released records’ referenced in the article above contains a link to the photo-copies of the official TIME SHEETS for GM Crew for Friday, June 28 and Saturday, June 29.
That DIRECT LINK to the TIME SHEETS is as follows…
http://media.phoenixnewtimes.com/9122596.0.pdf
And here are the exact-reproduction TEXT versions of the handwritten TIME SHEETS for Granite Mountain for Friday, June 28 and Saturday, June 29…
NOTE that for BOTH days ( Friday and Saturday )… the HOURS being claimed are IDENTICAL for ALL 20 of the Granite Mountain crew, including Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.
The TIME SHEETS claim they were ALL ‘on the clock’ earning overtime until 10:30 PM Saturday night, June 29, 2013 ( the day before they would die in Yarnell ).
The HOURS being claimed below for Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed for June 28 and June 29 match exactly what is in the Prescott payroll documents that ADOSH obtained for Marsh and Steed.
ALSO NOTE: The Saturday TIME SHEET says that the ENTIRE Granite Mountain Crew worked until 10:30 PM on Saturday night, finishing off a 16 hours shift ( 8 base + 8 overtime ).
But there is ample evidence that MOST of the crew were either ‘home for dinner’ or out at bars on Whiskey Row or ( in Eric Marsh’s case ) having dinner at the Prescott Brewing Company many hours BEFORE the (supposed) end of that 16 hour shift ( supposedly ending at 10:30 PM ).
So either this is evidence that Granite Mountain was ‘fudging timesheets’ just prior to Yarnell… OR ( if they were NOT doing that ) they were breaking the 2:1 work/rest rule even the day before they died.
** TEXT VERSIONS OF TIME SHEETS FROM THE DOCUMENT ABOVE…
* Time sheet for Friday, June 28, 2013
—————————————————————————–
Crew Name: Granite Mountain Hotshots
Crew Number: 2
Office Responsible for Fire: PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
Fire Name: West Spruce
Fire Number: P3EKV8 ( aka: West Spruce Fire )
Date: 06/28/13 ( Friday, June 28, 2013 )
Total Hours | Time | On | Off | Employee
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Eric Marsh
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Steed, Jesse
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Whitted, Clayton
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Robert Caldwell
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Carter, Travis
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | McKenzie, Chris
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Turbyfill, Travis
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Ashcraft, Andrew
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Thurston, Joe
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Parker, Wade
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Rose, Anthony
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Zuppiger, Garret
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Norris, Scott
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Deford, Dustin
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Warneke, William
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Woyjeck, Kevin
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Mckee, Grant
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Misner, Sean
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Percin, John
NOTE: Crew of 19 all worked 6.5 hours on June 28, 2013.
TITLE of Officer-in-charge: AFMO
Officer-in-charge ( signature ): xxxxx
—————————————————————————–
* Time sheet for Saturday, June 29, 2013
—————————————————————————–
Crew Name: Granite Mountain Hotshots
Crew Number: 1
Office Responsible for Fire: PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
Fire Name: Mount Josh
Fire Number: P3EKV8 ( aka: West Spruce Fire )
Date: 06/29/13 ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 )
Total Hours | Time | On | Off | Employee
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Marsh, Eric
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Steed, Jesse
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Whitted, Clayton
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Caldwell, Robert
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Carter, Travis
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | McKenzie, Chris
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Turbyfill, Travis
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Ashcraft, Andrew
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Thurston, Joe
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Parker, Wade
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Rose, Anthony
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Zuppiger, Garret
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Norris, Scott
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Deford, Dustin
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Warneke, William
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Woyjeck, Kevin
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Mckee, Grant
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Misner, Sean
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | John Percin
NOTE: Crew of 19 all worked 16 hours straight on June 29, 2013
with just a half-hour break for lunch from 12:00 PM to 12:30 PM.
TITLE of Officer-in-charge: TFLD(t)
Officer-in-charge ( signature ): xxxxx
—————————————————————————–
So on Friday… an (unnamed) AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer ) associated with the ‘West Spruce Fire’ actually SIGNED OFF on that Granite Mountain Friday TIME SHEET…
…and the next day, on Saturday, June 29, 2013, a simple (unnamed) TFLD(t) ( Task Force Leader TRAINEE ) signed off on the longer 16 hour shift for the ‘Mount Josh’ fire that supposedly had the entire crew ‘on the clock’ until 10:30 PM Saturday night.
Saturday, June 29, 2013 is also when Kyle Dickman said the following 2 things happened…
1. GM Crew member John Percin actually suffered HEAT STROKE that day… the day before he would then die in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
2. The GM Crew was ‘irritable’ all day while working that ‘West Spruce / Mount Josh’ fire assignment because they were ALREADY suffering from cumulative loss of sleep during that current 14 day work cycle.
NOTE: Those 2 claims being made by author Kyle Dickman in his BOOK ( which claimed GM survivor Brendan McDonough as a source ) are found on page 184.
And here again are the City of Prescott payroll records obtained by ADOSH which match exactly the ’16 hour shift’ being claimed by Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed in the submitted TIME SHEETS above…
NOTE: Granite Mountain was not ‘assigned’ to the ‘West Spruce Fire’ on the Prescott National Forest on Friday, June 28, until 4:30 PM so that’s why the actual ‘Fire hours’ shown above only total 6.5 for Friday.
But here in the Prescott Payroll records we see them claiming an ADDITIONAL 8 hours of ‘base pay’ for Friday BEFORE they ever got the call to go to the ‘West Spruce Fire’ at 4:30 PM. Friday afternoon.
For Saturday, June 29, 2013… the payroll records and the TIME SHEETS both matched the ( supposed ) 16 hour shift being claimed…
MARSH, ERIC S 06/28/13 06/28/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/28/13 06/28/13 270 OVERTIME-W 6.50
MARSH, ERIC S 06/29/13 06/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/29/13 06/29/13 270 OVERTIME-W 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/28/13 06/28/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/28/13 06/28/13 270 OVERTIME-W 6.50
STEED, JESSE J 06/29/13 06/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/29/13 06/29/13 270 OVERTIME-W 8.00
Just to Clarify .
The 28th they had 14.5 hours on shift and the 29 16 hours on shift.
along with all the other 10 days of long shifts.
Just to be clear the Mandatory days off or RR is absolutely required at 14 days
but it is also necessary to take time off in between fires you do not continue to work until you hit the 14. The FS never allowed that, nor did The Region of Forest.
My Forest FMO would have fried me and the Superintendent for not taking 2 Days off after a fire assignment of 5 or more days of 12 to 16 hour shifts.
The mandatory 14 requires the crew to be sent home not sent to a RR center.
In my day they would send us to a motel in town for 2 days and back to the fire or to another fire. We were moving all the time. some times gone for 3 weeks we had breaks in between but did not go Home as they do today.
I really appreciate what you’ve been saying about this, Bob.
And I really appreciate WTKTT’s documenting all of this.
I’m thinking that, regardless of GM’s possibly a little bit gaming the pay system that Saturday night, they should have not been sent to that fire on Sunday.
I don’t know if that is why SWCC turned down that order, but it might have been.
Again this brings it all back to the Culture that was operating regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshots. I’m guessing that if it had been the Prescott Hotshots that Shumate and the system had requested, in the same circumstances, they wouldn’t have been sent. Because rules. And stuff.
But, again this also comes around to Eric Marsh. And the squeeze he perceived himself to be in vis a vis the Prescott money pinchers. But, truly, all things considered, I think he should have turned down that request.
Damn, this is so heart-breakingly complicated.
Yes I truly believe if this was a Forest IRHS Crew they would not have been sent.
As a Forest Supervisory Dispatcher I would have noted at a Minimum that the Crew would not be off the Unavailable list till )900 the next Day. That was the drill for a crew that had been out for 4 or 5 days.
Any more than that they were off for at least 24 Hours. The 12 Days would be a Red Flag for the Dispatch. They would be put on Unavailable for 2 full days. I never had to enforce that with my Superintendent He was always telling me when the crew was not available.
Our Forest FMO was a X HS as well and he would have come unglued if the crew was not getting rest. Not to mention he was also A type 1 IC with a full Team for the Region.
On top of every thing else they the FS Crews are on all types of ne spending restraints and rules today.
Due to spending Funded money for suppression.
If crews are not sent out after their break during the Pay period they
are put on Comp time to reduce their OT if they have over 20 Hours.
A crazy new rule that cuts into OT pay to reduce the impact on Funding pay. Their break now if work days can end up two 8 hour Comp Days. That use to be 2– 8 hour days excused absence paid still the same but against the OT rather than reg. funding. They can add to that till the end of the Pay Period.
There was no such thing as forced Comp time in my day we earned OT and Got Paid. If we were put on days off and they were Regular work days we got paid the base 8 if it fell on our days off we did not get paid.
Marsh was really sucking the system. A Forest crew would not have been able to do the game playing with the hours he was putting down..
The Forest Dispatch would have caught it immediately you can lose your job over that kind of time manipulation.
Yes, WTKTT has come up with proof that these men were overworked and considering the conditions, arduous climb they had to make just to approach the fire line, considering by 9 am it was already approaching the 90’s and most had a minimum of 40 pounds pack and long sleeve fireman suits one can see how they needed not to be ordered up without a proper rest ;period. I know they had about a three mile hike that day under those adverse conditions and one mile was rocky two track at a very steep incline. They looked the size of ants when we first spotted them at the bottome of the mountain. It was no wonder I made a comment as we passed. seeing as I did how spent these men were and still yet from that point had about another half mile up hill climb. Seems to me someone did not give a shit and if they did it was minimal toward considering the consequencences that could and did evolve so much due to the physical condition they were forced into and the highly dangerous work they had to do that day.
On a positive note, I bought a car today with 15,000 miles on it—saved a bundle over a brand new one. Also the salseman David Frieberg provided Joy with many photos from the east and Congress side at the time of their deaths. These photos show the smoke columns from that diredtion and smoke coloration at the very time they succombed. I am sure she will be sharing those with you.
Another thing there are now over a 70 count of deaths for Yarnell and Joy discovered three more today. Lots of folks had left here after their home burned so we have no count of those and that means the deaths come out of a population of less than 600. Whew is that a lot and your friend in finding the truth nearly joined the 73 we know of. My prognosis is not good right now but I am a stickler and figure to fight it off in spite of catcching MRSA and pneumonia in the Hospital. I also caught Staph Epidermiditus and found I too now have lung, liver, heart and kidney damage. My brain damage I hope is miniimal, at least it was that hot day of June 30, 2013 when I knew enough to go the other way. I only say these things to let you know that NH3 gas that evolves off that shit they drop as retardant is deadly to old folk. You young fellows can handle the loss of a lung. Since I had cardiac arrest and a heart attack, I must have flat lined and that happened twice in four days. Joy did not know where I was, but neither did I for some time. Fortunately my son Mark is a RN and he gave me some strong help and advice. He wants his dad to live a while. So it is blood thinners for the rest of my life along with a stong dose of antibiotics starting tomorrow.
I have always believed that the EPA and FBI ought to be involved in these investigations. How can they investigate a single death in the Bahamas and not bother with 19 deaths of our finest firefighters considering that these men work many states and had before their deaths and considering the lies and coverups we he seen and are blatant at this point and known by so many. Let me tell you there are no long term studies on this shit they drop out of Jumbo Jets but the fish they filled a river with this shit died in the tens of thousands in that river. Story is on line–but add to those fish seventy old folks here and the many we know that are complaining of lung-heart problems we wonder why some of our tax money is not being spent to study this crap in a proficient and long term manner. No one wants this information out and I can only imagine the millions even spent in this fire toward dispersing this stuff onto our populations.
Did find out that Shumate and Hall were giving orders from the Peeples Valley end of the fire that date. Is Shumate federal? If so what has he to do with State Lands? Anyhow witnesses say they were directing traffic from there by that I mean the fire.
Let me say had there been a camp fire up on that hill that hot Friday, someone would have been minimally ticketed and that fire would have been quenched in a heartbeat. The conditions were extreme fire danger so even a cigarette was disallowed. But let lightening (if it really was) start a fire and your local firement won’t bother to go quench it or contain it. What gives and I wonder why we think we need a fire department here when we have enough common sense citizens that would jump on a firre and get it out quickly. Yet they are afraid because you need even a $20 pass to walk across state lands that belong to the people of the state and they might even get arrested then for containing the fire. Talk about bureaucratic bull shit and men that use our tax dollars to make sure they make bigh money contracts and you see why the pork barrel system does not want these fires out too quickly.
Well enough for now before my heart stops a third time. I hope i get a doctor tomorrow as good as my son is a RN.
So good to see you commenting here, Sonny!
Seriously, I cried the other night when Joy said you were in Hospice. I think you are doing the right thing. My dad died at 84 in Hospice after they decided to do chemotherapy on him for level 4 lung cancer that I can’t believe they didn’t catch at least a year earlier. By then his options were, obviously, limited, but I don’t think the chemo did anything positive for him whatsoever. But I don’t blame Hospice.
My mom died in Hospice, at 93 and a half, in February, after something I still can’t figure out how they missed in the first place. But I don’t blame Hospice.
But you’re in a better place than either of them were at this point. So Bravo to you for going wherever you decide to go your way!!
I agree that something needs to be investigated/done about the Yarnell citizens’ deaths. I think both fatigue and smoke-inhalation were related to the deaths of Granite Mountain. And as that column laid down over Yarnell, OMG, full of probably vast amounts of toxinigens and carbon monoxide and Dog knows what else, and elderly people fleeing under it, I do believe that was a toxic fatal thing.
I don’t know how we get that to happen. But I will carry that with me, in honor of you. I think the evacuation was a total FAIL, and the, probably, strongest part of their case. But something emerged today that might also impact things. Which I will post either tonight or tomorrow.
Keep the faith, Sonny, and keep checking in.
Namaste.
And he even bought a car today! Tough as nails!
Get better, Sonny!
Woodsman
Yeppers!!
Keep Strong and take care Sonny.
Yes indeed there is much more to be revealed. That agent orange looking Ammonia Phosphate is working lots of havoc with people and animals. Plants can stand small doses of BS but large doses actually burns the plant. Humans can’t feed well off BS and we have been fed plenty about the Yarnell Hill incident. WTKTT–thanks for such splendid investigations of these matters. I have to stand in awe at the abilities of people on this site. Joy is excellent in her discoveries, but some of you have the experience from life’s work. Thanks for your efforts–these young lives are worth it and especially those future lives saved.
Thanks for the encouragement Marti. It was an error on my part to allow myself to be talked into Hospice care. Once there the drugs in my case were wrecking me. I had to explain why I was leaving–I said I prefered to die at home if that was to be. But I am still alive and with a positive outlook–feel so much better here. I even bought a cookie cutter car so these doctor trips would be easier. I don’t feel like working on cars these days. Some of the best investigative remarks have been from you. Someone in the news from Prescott said the people on this site are a bunch of crazies–It is only a dim wit that would say something like that, on the other hand we are crazy for finding the truth. With what Dr. Ted Putnam once told me, there are just about half the people involved in these tragic deaths that prefer not to know the truth.
We hiked him when no one else would–were they afraid of his expertise? Wayne Niel with his years of firefighting experience is one I learned much from. If I were to be a firefighter I would learn much from them to keep ,me alive. Donut is sad in that he is on speaking engagements when he ought to be learning from people like that. I have learned so much from men and women (you among them) about firefighting and investigative means that I can only say these young ones would do well to be seeking the knowledge of these older firefighters.
We have all cried thinking of the young souls sacrificed to stupidity and I believe much of this came from those that must have gotten their bossing jobs by hook and crook instead of true experience. The greatest wrong was to kill 19 young souls needlessly. There is blame whether people will admit to it or not. Some of the culprits need to be sent back to training school or perhaps prosecuted.
Every 15 minutes in a manzanita wildfire as we witnessed by 11 am that day energy equal to a Heroshima type bomb is released. Joy and I witnessed the fireworks and that type of fireworks demands plenty respect.Seems that there wasn’t much of that respect that day nor much attention to weather conditions. Those things fall on the Chiefs and when they don’t have the repect to pay attention so the younger man is ke;pt safe then shame on them and man Karma kick their asses right out the door.
When I think seriously about all the elderly dying here we are better off with a man like Chief Ben Palm as fire watcher. After all his emt experience will help clean up the bodies left from the aftermath of the fire. Seems that those that claimed to be firefighters here weren’t too anxious to fight fires anyhow.
So I should have, probably, posted my earlier post to you later post down below.
But here you wrote:
“Did find out that Shumate and Hall were giving orders from the Peeples Valley end of the fire that date. Is Shumate federal? If so what has he to do with State Lands?”
Regarding Shumate. He was stationed at the Yarnell Fire Department building. He was an employee of Arizona Department of Forestry. Regardless, one of my beefs is that he didn’t really have eyes on the fire they were fighting on Saturday, from there. And I think he should have.
Hall, also, was an employee of Arizona Department of Forestry. My beefs with him are legion. Although I also think he was kinda sorta “set up” by AZ Dept of Forestry, who should have hired Bee Day’s Team, instead of his, to manage the fire on Sunday, ALL things considered. He spent Sunday trying to patch the holes in his Team instead of overseeing the fire that his Team was fighting. He had, basically, no clue what was actually going on because of all that.
Take care, rooting for you, and thanks for all you have contributed to this citizens’ investigation.
Thanks–I wondered the real role of those men. If state then that would their interests be in directing state land fires? Is that the way things are organized?
You said:
“If state then that would their interests be in directing state land fires?”
Well……………………………………………………………………
Apparently, currently, there seems to be some CONFLICT going on exactly about that.
We’ve had some serious arguments downstream around it all.
AZDF’s rationale for requesting the Homeowner’s Lawsuit be stopped is that they are now saying they have/had NO responsibility for protecting houses and private property when fighting a/the wildfire.
Seriously. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
That’s about as toxic an argument as the smoke is/was!!
Whew! It seems like everybody is in a MOOD today and I am trying to get out of the door to go to where it is green and wet because here it is…ahhh, you know the rest.
But…I did promise Marti a thoughtful response to her thoughtful castigation of me downstream on this topic among other things including the accusation that I am out of touch with today’s wildland firefighting community and to that, all I have to say is…guilty as charged!
Which is why it is so important for RTS to stay engaged since he either has one foot in or one foot out, I don’t know which it is and for new blood like the Woodsman and Blaze Attacker (or whatever that handle was downstream) and other current WFF to get involved and tell us how it is today.
So here is my main response to Marti’s and the original Chicken Little regarding this argument…WTKTT. Neither of you get it. Your arguments that their arguments mean this and that and the other thing and now they have to do this or be restricted by that and they have now painted themselves into a corner…well, none of that means anything.
Part of my delay had been trying to come up with a visual analogy to help you understand the situation and so far, the best I have been able to come up with is the giant Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters 1.
So…now you have it just where you want it..go punch it in the stomach and see what happens (and no flame throwers are allowed in this fight…just punches). The Stay Puft Marshmallow Man don’t care…hit it again…and again…and again.
They are high ranking tenured civil servants backed up by the governor at the state level and the President of the United States (thanks Obama) at the federal level.
Huff and puff all you want…you will never blow their house down! They will just ignore you and do whatever they want to tomorrow, just like they did yesterday and today.
Any questions?
I totally get what you’re saying, Gary.
And I’m not moody today.
I was just answering Sonny’s simple question with a….
…………”Well, it’s ………… complicated.”
Reply to Sonny post on November 23, 2015 at 7:29 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> On a positive note, I bought a car today with 15,000 miles
>> on it—saved a bundle over a brand new one.
Congratulations!
Nothing like a ‘new ride’ after a quick brush with death.
Enjoy!
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Also the salseman David Frieberg provided Joy with many
>> photos from the east and Congress side at the time of
>> their deaths. These photos show the smoke columns
>> from that diredtion and smoke coloration at the very time
>> they succombed. I am sure she will be sharing those with you.
I’ve already been examining these ‘new’ photos. They were all
taken with a Network-connected Samsung S4 and the TIMESTAMPS
in the filenames ( the HH.MM.XX.jpg parts ) are totally accurate.
Some of these show some pretty interesting things that I don’t believe have ever been seen in any Yarnell photos so far.
More about that later.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Another thing there are now over a 70 count of deaths for Yarnell
>> and Joy discovered three more today. Lots of folks had left here
>> after their home burned so we have no count of those and that
>> means the deaths come out of a population of less than 600.
That’s 12.1 percent of the population deceased within the 27 months since the fire. And ( as you said )… that’s just the ones you KNOW about.
>> Whew is that a lot
Yes, It is… no matter how you look at it.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> and your friend in finding the truth nearly joined the 73 we know of.
>> My prognosis is not good right now but I am a stickler and figure
>> to fight it off in spite of catcching MRSA and pneumonia in the
>> Hospital. I also caught Staph Epidermiditus and found I too
>> now have lung, liver, heart and kidney damage. My brain damage
>> I hope is miniimal,
LMAO.
You hang in there, Sonny. You’re too good to lose.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> at least it was that hot day of June 30, 2013 when I knew
>> enough to go the other way.
If only the firefighters also had your common sense.
A LOT of pain and sorrow would have never happened.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I only say these things to let you know that NH3 gas that
>> evolves off that shit they drop as retardant is deadly to old folk.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Fortunately my son Mark is a RN and he gave me some strong
>> help and advice. He wants his dad to live a while.
Please oblige him.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> So it is blood thinners for the rest of my life along with
>> a stong dose of antibiotics starting tomorrow.
Yes. Until those new STENTS have ‘healed up’ the blood thinners
are essential. The heart needs TIME to revasularize itself ( and it will ).
But be careful of getting any cuts. You will bleed like a stuck pig.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I have always believed that the EPA and FBI ought to be involved
>> in these investigations.
No question. That shit they drop was NEVER meant to be used in urban areas and this is now just one more BIG issue that the WFF industry needs to address sooner or later. Hopefully SOONER than LATER.
>> Sonny also said
>>
>> Well enough for now before my heart stops a third time.
>> I hope i get a doctor tomorrow as good as my son is a RN.
As one stubborn Irish to another…
Go n-eirí an t-ádh leat… saol fada agus breac shláinte chugat, Sonny.
( Good luck to you… long life and good health, Sonny )
And there is also this from some fellas I know personally and have had more than a few beers with…
The Irish Band Flogging Molly
Song Title: The Likes of You again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfl7xXDR0DE
———————————————
He poured himself a whiskey
And his face began to glow.
I’ll never leave so never grieve
I’ll be back before ya know
So I’m bringing in the New Year
As the bells began to ring
Fat’s in the corner, she’s just about to sing
Time to get another, before the final shout
You should have heard them roarin’
When they dragged the bugger out
And we’ll never see the likes of you again
No we’ll never see the likes of you again
No we’ll never see the likes of you again
————————————————
>> WTKTT said…
>>
>> So on Friday… an (unnamed) AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management
>> Officer ) associated with the ‘West Spruce Fire’ actually SIGNED OFF
>> on that Granite Mountain Friday TIME SHEET…
>>
>> …and the next day, on Saturday, June 29, 2013, a simple (unnamed)
>> TFLD(t) ( Task Force Leader TRAINEE ) signed off on the longer 16
>> hour shift for the ‘Mount Josh’ fire that supposedly had the entire
>> crew ‘on the clock’ until 10:30 PM Saturday night.
Forgot to mention… those timesheets at the following link don’t have the NAMES of these individuals… but they are photo-copies of the originals and their original SIGNATURES were not redacted.
The original Granite Mountain TIME SHEETS submitted for Friday, June 28, 2013 and Saturday, June 29, 2013…
http://media.phoenixnewtimes.com/9122596.0.pdf
Anyone who is used to submitting time sheets in that part of Arizona probably would recognize BOTH of the signatures on these documents.
Yes, WTKTT has come up with proof that these men were overworked and considering the conditions, arduous climb they had to make just to approach the fire line, considering by 9 am it was already approaching the 90’s and most had a minimum of 40 pounds pack and long sleeve fireman suits one can see how they needed not to be ordered up without a proper rest ;period. I know they had about a three mile hike that day under those adverse conditions and one mile was rocky two track at a very steep incline. They looked the size of ants when we first spotted them at the bottome of the mountain. It was no wonder I made a comment as we passed. seeing as I did how spent these men were and still yet from that point had about another half mile up hill climb. Seems to me someone did not give a shit and if they did it was minimal toward considering the consequencences that could and did evolve so much due to the physical condition they were forced into and the highly dangerous work they had to do that day.
On a positive note, I bought a car today with 15,000 miles on it—saved a bundle over a brand new one. Also the salseman David Frieberg provided Joy with many photos from the east and Congress side at the time of their deaths. These photos show the smoke columns from that diredtion and smoke coloration at the very time they succombed. I am sure she will be sharing those with you.
Another thing there are now over a 70 count of deaths for Yarnell and Joy discovered three more today. Lots of folks had left here after their home burned so we have no count of those and that means the deaths come out of a population of less than 600. Whew is that a lot and your friend in finding the truth nearly joined the 73 we know of. My prognosis is not good right now but I am a stickler and figure to fight it off in spite of catcching MRSA and pneumonia in the Hospital. I also caught Staph Epidermiditus and found I too now have lung, liver, heart and kidney damage. My brain damage I hope is miniimal, at least it was that hot day of June 30, 2013 when I knew enough to go the other way. I only say these things to let you know that NH3 gas that evolves off that shit they drop as retardant is deadly to old folk. You young fellows can handle the loss of a lung. Since I had cardiac arrest and a heart attack, I must have flat lined and that happened twice in four days. Joy did not know where I was, but neither did I for some time. Fortunately my son Mark is a RN and he gave me some strong help and advice. He wants his dad to live a while. So it is blood thinners for the rest of my life along with a stong dose of antibiotics starting tomorrow.
I have always believed that the EPA and FBI ought to be involved in these investigations. How can they investigate a single death in the Bahamas and not bother with 19 deaths of our finest firefighters considering that these men work many states and had before their deaths and considering the lies and coverups we he seen and are blatant at this point and known by so many. Let me tell you there are no long term studies on this shit they drop out of Jumbo Jets but the fish they filled a river with this shit died in the tens of thousands in that river. Story is on line–but add to those fish seventy old folks here and the many we know that are complaining of lung-heart problems we wonder why some of our tax money is not being spent to study this crap in a proficient and long term manner. No one wants this information out and I can only imagine the millions even spent in this fire toward dispersing this stuff onto our populations.
Did find out that Shumate and Hall were giving orders from the Peeples Valley end of the fire that date. Is Shumate federal? If so what has he to do with State Lands? Anyhow witnesses say they were directing traffic from there by that I mean the fire.
Let me say had there been a camp fire up on that hill that hot Friday, someone would have been minimally ticketed and that fire would have been quenched in a heartbeat. The conditions were extreme fire danger so even a cigarette was disallowed. But let lightening (if it really was) start a fire and your local firement won’t bother to go quench it or contain it. What gives and I wonder why we think we need a fire department here when we have enough common sense citizens that would jump on a firre and get it out quickly. Yet they are afraid because you need even a $20 pass to walk across state lands that belong to the people of the state and they might even get arrested then for containing the fire. Talk about bureaucratic bull shit and men that use our tax dollars to make sure they make bigh money contracts and you see why the pork barrel system does not want these fires out too quickly.
Well enough for now before my heart stops a third time. I hope i get a doctor tomorrow as good as my son is a RN.
I did not intentionally post twice Sorry and maybe it is a brain farc. Thank to all you and Joy –she has been there when I needed and I did not know how much my kids loved me until they all showed up even from long distances. I miss my son Ted who passed much similar to these men–negligent bosses. Keep up the good work and I do know smoke jumpers like Dr. Ted Putnam, and others such as Marti, WTKTT, Bob.Powers, Gary Olsen, and others on this site have a most important agenda–How to save lives and they will.
I am honored that you included me in that.
And, truly, I have to say that if it hadn’t been for Chris’s camera, sitting there in the middle of the deployment site, invisible to basically everybody, I probably wouldn’t have gotten involved in this.
You just never know……….
You just never know……….
YOU DESERVE THE HONOR MARTI.
As one stubborn Irish to another…
Go n-eirí an t-ádh leat… saol fada agus breac shláinte chugat, Sonny.
( Good luck to you… long life and good health, Sonny )
And there is also this from some fellas I know personally and have had more than a few beers with…
The Irish Band Flogging Molly
Song Title: The Likes of You again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfl7xXDR0DE
———————————————
He poured himself a whiskey
And his face began to glow.
I’ll never leave so never grieve
I’ll be back before ya know
So I’m bringing in the New Year
As the bells began to ring
Fat’s in the corner, she’s just about to sing
Time to get another, before the final shout
You should have heard them roarin’
When they dragged the bugger out
And we’ll never see the likes of you again
No we’ll never see the likes of you again
No we’ll never see the likes of you again
————————————————
**
** JULIANN ASHCRAFT FINISHES HERE ‘SPREAD THE BETTER’ BUS TOUR
This also happened last week.
On November 16, 2015, Juliann Ashcraft completed her 9 month long ‘Spread the Better’ tour in that converted ‘land yacht’ ( tour bus ) she purchased.
9 months and 49 states… with her four children ‘on board’ for the whole ride.
Direct link to Juliann Ashcraft’s ( ongoing ) “Spread the Better” BLOG where she was documenting this entire 9-month bus journey…
http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/
**
** GM RESOURCE ORDERS AND TIME SHEETS ( CONTINUED )
I’ve read all of the continuing discussion down below that came out of the re-examination of the Granite Mountain Resource orders and Time sheets.
This is going to be my own quick ‘chime in’ on that.
Mr. Powers… I still don’t think your original question about “Who were the 4 Sawyers for GM on June 30, 2013” was going to morph into that total re-examination of the Granite Mountain resource orders and whatnot… but I’m glad it did.
A lot came out of this ‘re-examination’… and it’s safe to say that even with all the back-and-forth… YOU were never really WRONG about the explanations you were putting forward for the ‘wonky’ things being seen in those GM Resource Orders.
YOU are still absolutely right about…
1. The public evidence record has NEVER contained a copy of the actual CONTRACT that must have existed between Granite Mountain and the City of Prescott. So what was appearing in those GM resource orders MAY very well have just been “the way it always looked” whenever someone ended up ordering this Type 1 Hotshot Crew owned/operated by the CITY of Prescott.
2. The whole ordering/computer input process is ‘complicated’… and there’s also lots of room for ‘errors’ when people are in a hurry. That still might explain a lot of the ‘weirdness’.
Bottom line here is that probably the only two people who could explain why that C-5 Crew order and the accompanying C-5.1 through C-5.20 resource orders ended up looking the way they did would be either Charlie Havel ( who did the actual input to the computer? ) or Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
Maybe those ROs for Granite always looked that way… and it was exactly the way Darrell Willis WANTED them to look as per ‘the contract’ or other directives coming at HIM from Prescott Human Services and/or Payroll Department.
So until it’s possible to hear more from either of those two people with regards to this specific ‘mystery’… I think we’re just going to have to call it “One of the many continuing mysteries surrounding the Yarnell Hill Tragedy”.
I still think no matter how much time goes by it’s still important to know just as much about how Granite Mountain really even got SENT to Yarnell as it still is to know what happened to them after they GOT there… but until we hear from people who actually ENTERED that resource order all we can do is guess why it bears no resemblance to the OTHER TWO resource orders for the OTHER TWO Type 1 IHC crews ‘ordered up’ the same night… for the same fire.
That being said… look for another post coming up that still touches on this issue but gets more into the TIME SHEETS and some of the ‘wonky’ things in those, as well.
I know you pointed out down below that a Type 1 IHC can still be ‘on the clock’ even after being released from an Incident and until they get ‘home’… and even still ‘on the clock’ for the cleanup work that goes on after arriving home…
…but there is still something ‘wonky’ about the 16 hours ( 8 base and 8 overtime ) being claimed by BOTH Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed for Saturday, June 29, 2013… the day BEFORE the tragedy.
John Dougherty obtained ( and published ) the actual ‘time sheets’ that were submitted by the someone ( Marsh? Steed? ) for Granite Mountain’s work that day… and it says they ( Marsh and Steed ) didn’t ‘clock out’ of that fire and the 8 hours of overtime they had going until 10:30 PM on Saturday night.
That still doesn’t jive AT ALL with a lot of other evidence in the public record about where these two men WERE on Saturday night. Amanda Marsh herself said in a public interview that she and Eric had dinner at the Prescott Brewing Company DURING the same time Eric was supposedly still clocking this overtime being claimed for Saturday. The Prescott Brewing Company CLOSED at 10:00 PM that night… a full half-hour before both Marsh’s and Steed’s time sheets show them
completing their 8 hours of overtime for that night at 10:30 PM.
Claire Caldwell said in a public interview that Robert Caldwell ‘walked through the door at home for dinner’ at 7:30 PM that night. That’s 3 hours before Marsh and Steed supposedly ‘clocked out’ at 10:30 PM that same evening.
Same for Scott Norris. He was home in time on Saturday to try and have dinner with his girlfriend Heather but she had to pull a graveyard shift.
Kyle Dickman ( in his book ) puts Brendan McDonough, Christopher MacKenzie and Garret Zuppiger at the Moctezuma Bar on Whiskey Row that same evening… long before the 10:30 PM clock-out time being claimed for the ENTIRE GM CREW in those ‘hour sheets’ that got turned in for Saturday, June 29, 2013.
There’s also the fact that if it really was TRUE that the entire GM crew didn’t go ‘off the clock’ on Saturday night until 10:30 PM ( as the time sheets claim )… then they REALLY screwed up their 2:1 work/rest ration by heading off to Yarnell just 6 hours later.
That means ( according to the timesheets ) the entire GM crew worked a 16 hour shift on Saturday, June 29 ( 8 base + 8 overtime )… went ‘off the clock’ at 10:30 PM… then no one could
have possibly gotten more than 6 hours sleep before it was up again at 4:30 AM to be at the GM Station 7 by 5:00 AM and then ‘wheels rolling’ towards Yarnell at 5:30 AM.( which is documented ).
Whoops… bad ‘typo’ in one of the first paragraphs of the message above.
What I MEANT to say was…
Mr. Powers… I still don’t think you had any idea your original question about “Who were the 4 Sawyers for GM on June 30, 2013?″ was going to morph into that total re-examination of the Granite Mountain resource orders and whatnot… but I’m glad it did.
I will say this for the record as well—-
The SWCC would have had the Demob Order for the Crew and Travel time back to Prescott.
There is no way the Fire released them with out sending that to SWCC.
It is flat out SOP. Why two reasons
1. That is the way Mobilization Resource orders flow to the Fire.
That is the Way Demobilization orders flow back from the Fire.
2. The GM crew was a National resource ordered thru the SWCC.
That is why they were shown as Not Available. Even in short fire assignments the crew would not in all my years be put back available until the following morning at 0800. after going off shift at 2230. With the Time on Fire they should have been on a 48 hour unavailable rest period. That has been normal SOP.
Overworking HS Crews has been addressed many times and the 2:1 rule along with the Mandatory rules have been set to keep the crews from Fatigue.
They should never have been sent to Yarnell.
Again that 14 day cycle ends when they are released home at 6 days 8 days or 12 days they do not work 14 days before they are off on a normal tour its 5 on 2 off.
The 14 days is a mandatory for a Fire or multiple fires. once they go past 5 days any time they reach home base they need to take 2 days off.
It is the Responsibility of the Superintendent to rest their crew. Forests require it Regions require it national Dispatch centers require it. Daryl Willis should have required it. The State should have required it.
Marsh should have told the State of the Days and hours on Fire.
They should never have Gone to Yarnell.
Followup…
And by the way… speaking of “Those men must have been tired” and regardless of there still being 48 hours left on a 14-day cycle it would have been prudent for Marsh to NOT accept the Yarnell assignment…
Kyle Dickman reports TWO interesting things in his BOOK.
On page 184 Kyle Dickman makes TWO claims about the condition of the Granite Mountain crew on Saturday, June 29, 2013… the day BEFORE the tragedy.
This is what Dickman was saying happened during that 16 hour shift they supposedly pulled on Saturday…
1. Kyle Dickman says John Percin suffered heat exhaustion on Saturday, June 29.
2. Kyle Dickman also claimed the crew was ‘irritable’ all day that Saturday because they were all already suffering from cumulative ‘lack of sleep’ during that latter part of that current 14 day work cycle. Then they all supposedly clocked out at 10:30 PM, got very little sleep again ( 6 hours max? ) and then off they went to Yarnell for their 13th day of work in that current work cycle.
Dickman’s SOURCE for those statements would appear to have been Brendan McDonough himself… who was fully available to Dickman when he was writing it.
Copy.
Thanks for this.
Longer post coming on this ( with links to documents )… but forgot to mention that Kyle Dickman ALSO says that Jesse Steed was AT HOME for ‘dinner’ that Saturday eveninig… HOURS before the timesheet that was submitted said he finished his overtime shift at 10:30 PM on Saturday.
On page 183 of Dickman’s book… he ALSO claims that Eric Marsh called Jesse Steed at his house WHILE Marsh was having dinner with his wife at the Prescott Brewing Company… and Jesse was out on his back porch drinking a Coors Light and watching his kids swing on their swing.
TWO points about THIS…
1. Kyle Dickman had access to family members when writing his book… and that information appears to have been given to him by Steed’s wife.
2. If Jesse was ‘watching his kids on their swing’… you can be pretty sure it was still DAYLIGHT… which means Steed was drinking that Coors Light on his porch several hours before the official timesheet says he ‘clocked out’ of his 16 hour shift at 10:30 PM.
I’m really not sure which is the worse scenario here.
That there is this evidence that GM was ‘fudging timesheets’… or that they were NOT… but that would THEN mean that no one on the GM crew got more than 6 hours of sleep after a 16 hour shift before they traveled to Yarnell and died.
WTKTT
Just to Clarify
THERE IS NOT A 14 DAY WORK CYCLE.
IT IS A MANDATORY 14 DAY RR break FROM FIRE ASSIGNMENTS. one fire or multiple fires where you have not been sent home.
If you get home during that fire cycle you take a Break you do not work at home until you hit 14.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 23, 2015 at 9:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If you get home during that fire cycle you take a Break
>> you do not work at home until you hit 14.
Unless you were ‘Granite Mountain’… with ‘something to prove’.
Former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch ( who only left GM after the Thoimpson Fire in 2013 and shortly before Yarnell ) was one of author Kyle Dickman’s primary sources for his book.
Kyle Dickman reports in his book ( on page 54 ) that one of the reasons Brandon Bunch applied for a transfer to another crew prior to the 2013 season is because he was sick and tired of Eric Marsh always acting like he had ‘something to prove’.
Here is exactly what Kyle Dickman wrote on his page 54…
“The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the Hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE THEMSELVES.”
Also… every ‘account’ that has appeared in the media or in books as the ‘backstory’ for Saturday night, June 28, 2013 has the GM Crew all believing that Sunday was SUPPOSED to be a ‘DAY OFF’ for them after having pulled long shifts for 12 days in the searing Arizona heat.
According to accounts… some of the GM Crew had to CANCEL other plans they had already made for Sunday once Eric Marsh called Jesse circa 8:00 PM Saturday night… then Jesse called the Squad bosses and they, in turn, called all the other crew.
By some accounts… a number of the crew were actually MAD that what was a ‘promised day off’ was now turning into another assignment.
Darrell Willis said that when he talked with Marsh at 6:00 AM Sunday morning, while Marsh was already ‘on the road’ and heading to Yarnell… that the men were (supposedly) “excited to be working on their day off” to make the $20 overtime.
That could only have been something Marsh ‘told’ him during that phone call ( if it was ever even said at all ).
Willis was already in Peeples Valley when that Sunday 6:00 AM phone call took place… and even HE had been ‘up all night’ and was not heading into an all-day supervisory position without any sleep and would then be assigning a “tennis court” as a valid Safety Zone for 26+ men.
Willis couldn’t have possibly ‘heard from the men’ themselves HOW they felt about having what they were TOLD was supposed to be a ‘day off’ turn back into just the 13th consecutive work day for them.
Whoops… TWO bad typos above.
Saturday was June 29, not June 28 as I accidentally typed up above in one place.
And… I typed ‘not’ where I should have type ‘now’.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
Willis was already in Peeples Valley when that Sunday 6:00 AM phone call took place… and even HE had been ‘up all night’ and was NOW heading into an all-day supervisory position without any sleep and would then be assigning a “tennis court” as a valid Safety Zone for 26+ men.
Of course they had something to prove…something to prove to the entire wildfire community. After all, they were the first of its kind that I’ve ever heard of…a structural, city fire department with a certified type 1 IHC. Culture clash..
When the news came out of what happened, while looking at the firefighter portraits, I remember it standing out to me that some were shown wearing the old metro model structural fire helmets. The hair stood up on the back of my neck when I saw that. We get a lot of interest in wildfire certification from structural fire departments. Everyone wants to know what class do I need to take for this position, that position. I am seeing city firefighters trying to obtain positions of IMT (incident mgt teams.) Been happened more the last 5 or so years.
I’ll throw this out there. If a leader of a crew was caught using substances on a fire and nothing happened, who owned him after that?
Woodsman
They might have done well to study under Wooton and Morrison— Those men have a fire fighting University in Washington I think. Anyhow the report they wrote about this fire was quite early but very informative for anyone who wants to learn firefigting. Nothing like hands on experience but if I don’t know the Pathagorean Theorm then I better not profess to know Geometry. It won’t due to use a transit that is not first put level in four positions. I am afraid too many fancy ;pickups and bushititis has infiltrated the firefighting community.
Reply to Woodsman post on
November 23, 2015 at 8:47 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Of course they had something to prove…
>> something to prove to the entire wildfire
>> community. After all, they were the first of
>> its kind that I’ve ever heard of…a structural,
>> city fire department with a certified
>> type 1 IHC. Culture clash..
And it isn’t talked about much… but history is going to point out that following the Yarnell Hill Fire… it never happened AGAIN.
And so here we are… with the WFF and regular FF ‘cultures’ still clashing… but both believing that the one will never be ( or ever should be ) ‘the other’.
But the more fires are WUI… the two ‘cultures’ just keep getting thrown together and the ‘Unified Command’ expects them all to function as ‘a team’.
As we have ( so tragically ) seen… it’s not working well.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> When the news came out of what happened,
>> while looking at the firefighter portraits, I
>> remember it standing out to me that some
>> were shown wearing the old metro model
>> structural fire helmets. The hair stood up on
>> the back of my neck when I saw that. We get
>> a lot of interest in wildfire certification from
>> structural fire departments. Everyone wants
>> to know what class do I need to take for this
>> position, that position. I am seeing city
>> firefighters trying to obtain positions of
>> IMT (incident mgt teams.) Been happened
>> more the last 5 or so years.
Can’t thank you enough for being here and taking the time to add your comments to this ongoing discussion.
You have a unique and special ‘perspective’ on this new-age problem of the emerging ‘hybrid’ FF.
>> Woodsman also wrote…
>>
>> I’ll throw this out there. If a leader of a crew
>> was caught using substances on a fire and
>> nothing happened, who owned him after that?
It’s a good question… and I don’t think the obvious answer is Darrell Willis. Willis ‘owned’ Marsh for other reasons.
Read Marsh’s employee evaluations and the ones where he was put on ‘probation’ and forced to go to some kind of ‘therapy’ and/or ‘classes’.
Willis put the dog leash on Marsh early on.
.
But he was hired none the less with a lot of bad back ground including the Drug use on a Crew tat was disbanded. Willis did inherit that he did not originally Hire Marsh.
Good point. Duan Steinbrink was the FIRST ‘Prescott Wildland Division Chief’ and dealt with his own ‘personnel evaluation’ issues with Marsh even before Marsh got ‘passed over’ for the WDC job and it went to Willis instead.
As per Woodman question… Marsh might have had several ‘owners’.
**
** TWISP UPDATE – TWISP INITIAL ‘NARRATIVE’ REPORT FROM US FORESTRY
Here is the link to the ‘Twisp Initial Report’ that was just published by US Forestry
on their ‘Wildfire Lessons Learned’ site…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=c221a055-a972-478c-be5c-9a16c2d5929c
I’ve only had the chance to read it a few times and now that I’m done throwing up in my mouth ( for any number of reasons )… here’s my initial reaction(s).
Let me preface these ‘comments’ in the same spirit that US Forestry used for this ‘Initial Report’ of theirs.
This is ‘preliminary information/reactions’ on my part.
The REAL ‘information/reactions’ are yet to come and ( just like USFS ) I won’t tell you when.
Initial Reaction(s) – In no particular order.
If this really is the road that USFS is headed down for all future fatality investigations and reports… then any husband/wife mother/father sister/brother who has someone working out ‘on the line’ for US Forestry should be taking notice. You might be looking at an ’empty chair’ yourself and rest assured… you won’t really know why ( not from USFS, anyway ).
The MAJORITY of this document is NOT about what happened in Twisp on August 19, 2013.
It’s about all the reasons USFS still doesn’t think reporting clearly and plainly about a fatality incident is something they ever plan on doing.
Once you get past all the 50,000 foot overview hot-runny intellectual bullshit about the ‘approach we are taking’… there actually IS some ‘new information’… but still not enough to know what REALLY happened.
The ‘tone’ of this thing is that “It’s only been THREE MONTHS… how can anyone expect us to know what REALLY happened? Stay tuned as we try to find out more.”
By the end of the report… you just have to wonder what they thought they were even accomplishing by releasing this ‘Initial/Incomplete Narrative’ at all.
All that being said… here’s what struck me most about it…
There is absolutely NOTHING in this report about how that fucking fire got STARTED.
Here is actually the totality of what USFS had to say about that right as they finished all that verbose ‘explaining themselves’ and finally got around to talking about the fire…
————————————
There were several very large fires in the area (Figure 1), as well as many small fires that resulted from earlier lightning storms. The Twisp River Fire (Twisp) started about five miles west of the town of Twisp. About 20 homes were scattered throughout the area near where the fire started.
————————————
That’s it. No other mention of what CAUSED the fire that would then kill 3 of their own.
Here’s a quick ‘breakdown’ on what they seemed to be ‘suggesting’ the cause was…
>> There were several very large fires in the area
That is true… but NONE of them were even remotely close enough to Twisp at NOON on August 19, 2015 to ‘throw an ember’ or possibly be ( in any way ) the cause of this fire near Woods Canyon Road that wasn’t seen or reported until about NOON that day.
>> as well as many small fires that resulted from earlier lightning storms.
That is also TRUE… but misleading. By throwing that in there… they seem to be ‘suggesting’ that Twisp was one of these ‘fires that resulted from earlier lightning storms’. The statement is ONLY true in the sense that SOME of the fires that would end up being included in this larger, generic ‘Okanogan Fire Complex’ DID seem to possibly have been cause by a ‘lightning strike’… but there is still absolutely NO EVIDENCE that that is what cause the ‘Twisp Fire’.
And they don’t PROVIDE any, either. No weather data at all in this report. Zero. Zip Nada.
It was an absolutely ‘clear-sky’ day in Twisp when this fire was first reported… and there is still NO EVIDENCE there had been ANY ‘lightning strikes’ there on Twisp River Road where this thing suddenly ‘appeared’ around NOON on August 19, 2015.
So right off the bat… their ‘narrative’ gets a grade of ‘TOTAL FAIL’.
To come out with an ‘investigative report’ and not even say what was done to DETERMINE the very cause of the fire and what investigators have ‘eliminated’ as possibilities ( and WHY ) is simply just amateur-hour.
The next thing that suprised me was, quite honestly, how much detail there really WAS in their ‘preliminary narrative’. Even though it’s not enough to still really be sure what happened… there was far more there than I actually imagined they ( USFS, anyway ) were ever going to ADMIT to.
Example 1: They are making absolutely no bones about the fact that ALL of those firefighters that were up Woods Canyon Road were doing nothing but trying to protect EMPTY HOUSES. In particular… there is no no doubt whatsoever that Engine 642 ended up a US Forestry Engine sitting in a private driveway on private property trying to do ‘structure protection’ on an absolutely EMPTY pre-evacuated house which was now nothing more than part of the fuel bed and totally replaceable with some loads of materials from Home Depot.
I honestly thought they ( USFS ) were going to try and ‘dance around that’.
They didn’t. These men ( and women? they don’t say ) were ‘where they were’ because THREE different Incident Commanders ( plus one mysterious ICT(t) trainee ) all AGREED that protecting EMPTY HOUSES with no lives at risk was something THEY ( the Engine and Dozer crews ) should be risking THEIR lives doing.
I think that was the first time I threw up in my mouth a little on first read-through.
It’s also the ‘moment’ that makes this Twisp Tragedy absolutely directly RELEVANT to what happened in Yarnell ( AND on the ‘Valley Fire’. ) when FFs either decided on their own ( or were ORDERED ) to leave ‘safe black’… and go ‘over the river and through the woods’ with no regards for LCES… and with almost total loss of SA… and try and ‘do something’ to protect EMPTY piles of lumber, drywall and shingles.
The ‘Valley Fire’ guys lived… but only barely. The ‘EMPTY piles of lumber, drywall and shingles’ that THEY decided justified them leaving the safe ‘heel’ of the fire were SO MUCH just ‘part of the fuel bed’ that’s it was almost impossible to even make them out amidst the trees in satellite photos. Not much different for Woods Canyon Road, actually.
But I digress. Back to ‘initial reactions’ to this USFS ‘Twisp Trailer’ thing…
This “report” actually DOES pay homage to the known radio scanner transmissions captured on that Methow Valley Facebook page that day.
They actually DO acknowledge that Okanogan Country Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller DID make a radio call saying “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD” after he had been up there and made sure everyone was evacuating. Waller is also the one who then told Dispatch he couldn’t get an ‘Engines’ up there because it was too dangerous and there weren’t any adequate ‘Safety Zones’ up there.
The “report” then simply says ( as we suspected ) that once all the OTHER agencies showed up and things went to ‘Unified Command’… Don Waller wasn’t ‘calling the shots’ anymore and someone else thought it was perfectly safe to go ‘house washing’ up there.
The “report” does not really indicate WHO this infamous “Right Flank Point of Contact” was… but by all accounts in even this short narrative… this guy/gal was a “piece of work”.
The SECOND time I threw up in my mouth on initial read-through was when they admitted that once it started hitting the fan… the boys in Engine 642 actually made the RIGHT move that would have probably saved their lives that afternoon. They jumped in their Engine and headed AWAY from the ‘EMPTY pile of lumber and drywall and shingles’ they were TOLD to ‘defend’ and they turned NORTH onto Woods Canyon Road. They MUST have realized for themselves at that point that the ‘escape route’ ( back DOWN Woods Canyon Road ) was probably ‘compromised’… so they went NORTH to try and find a safe spot.
They actually reached what would eventually become the ‘safe spot’ where the other 3 burned FFS ended up surviving… and there was “Right Flank Point of Contact” waving his arms and yelling at them to RTO and go DOWN Woods Canyon Road.
They ‘obeyed his/her order’… and a few minutes later they were burning to death.
I’m actually also surprised that USFS is actually admitting that is what happened.
So before this “preliminary response” of my own gets any longer… let’s do the LCES dance based on what we NOW know….
L = Lookout(s) = Total fail. They decided to be their ‘own lookouts’ and then proceeded to fail miserably at that important task.
C = Communications = Total fail. There was ‘total confusion’ at the most critical moments and so many people were trying to talk on the radio no one was able to ‘Communicate clearly and Effectively’ with anyone.
E = Escape Route = Total Fail. It was a road that even Mr. Kirkpatrick ( who went up to rescue his dogs long before the wind shift ) said had FLAMES ‘quite close to it’ before any ‘Engines’ were even sent up there. Engine 642 even seemed to KNOW that ‘Escape Route’ was compromised when they pulled away from the house they were working on… but ‘Right Flank Point of Contact’ ended up ORDERING them to use that ‘compromised’ Escape Route, anyway.
S = Safety Zone = Chief Don Waller told dispatch as soon as he could that there were ‘No valid Safety Zones’ up there… so Twisp River Road ended up ‘The Safety Zone’ See ‘Escape Route’. As was the case with Yarnell… the only time a ‘Safety Zone’ is SAFE is if you also have a SAFE way to get to it when the shit hits the fan.
I’m starting to throw up in my mouth a little again… so that’s it for now.
More later…
WTKTT,
Good job on your initial assessment. Here’s some more.
One really GOOD thing the Twisp River Fire WFF did was set up a Staging Area where Resources can be kegged up close to the fire for future use.
Interesting quotes from the CRAP report follow:
“Prevention is not as easy as learning what people should or should not have done at a specific incident. It requires a thorough examination
of the system that put people in positions where they felt that their
actions were the best option. ”
After first referring to what prevention is NOT – “easy” – it basically says that “LEARNING WHAT PEOPLE (WFF) SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE AT A SPECIFIC INCIDENT” is in fact “EASY.” Yes, that IS absolutely correct, it is pretty EASY learning the right things to do on fires, like knowing and understanding and following the WFF Rules while all-the-while knowing, understanding, recognizing, and mitigating the Watch Out Situations.
The CRAP report further states: “IT REQUIRES A THOROUGH EXAMINATION OF THE SYSTEM THAT PUT PEOPLE IN POSITIONS WHERE THEY FELT THAT THEIR ACTIONS WERE THE BEST OPTION.”
This one is interesting because the fairly recent New Wave of Human Factors research deals with “systems” and seems to avoid placing responsibility on individuals. You know, like the ones that actually make the decisions to follow or not follow the basic WFF Rules. When you get a traffic violation. is it the fault of the ‘system’ or your fault because you were speeding or whatever? Evidently the same logic doesn’t apply here.
So, would the Wenatchee and Okanogan NF have been the “system” that allowed their Type 6 Engine WFF’s “in positions where they felt their actions” (most likely based on PRIOR successful “actions”) “were the best option.” ?? And how about on a more micro level? Was the District Fire Management level the next level of the ‘system.’
Based on this ‘Status Report’ this fire was typically COMPLEX from the start, yet there were NO additional SUPERVISORY overhead assigned to give tactical direction, only “Point[s] of Contact” for the respective right flank and left flank.
“These ICs were expected to manage the following interagency resources from various agencies:
•3 structure (Type 1) engines
•2 medium (Type 3) structure/wildland fire engines
•9 light (Type 6) wildland fire engines
*2 water tenders
•2 FD6 division chiefs
•2 dozers with crew (a crew of 2 for 1 dozer; a crew of 3 for the other dozer)
•1 hand crew (16 people)
•1 4-person helitack crew
•1 light helicopter
•2 medium helicopters (one did not arrive on scene until after the entrapment)
•1 heavy helicopter
•1 air attack (to provide eyes over the fire)
•3 heavy air tankers (carrying retardant)
•1 lead plane (to help guide the retardant tanker)
This is a typically complex initial attack situation and yet, there are NO supervisors in the Operations level, e.g. OPS, Division/Group Supervisors (DIVS), Task Force leaders (TFLD), etc. Only ‘points of contact.” These folks were WAY out of sync with the basic Span of Control principle of 5:1; Five Resources supervised by One Overhead.
Instead, the CRAP report states several times that: “The firefighters determined that …”
Another good one is this: “Resources on both the right and left sides of the fire were still trying to ensure that their radios were programmed with the correct frequencies so that they would all be able to communicate with each other. NO ADEQUATE PROCEDURE EXISTS TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE. The crews adapted in real time to find a functional solution.” Are you kidding me? REALLY? No adequate procedure exists …” How about LCES? It requires good, effective communications BEFORE the fire to ensure good communications DURING the fire.
The CRAP report states: “Air attack was not aware that there were ground resources on the right side of the fire up Woods Canyon Road …” WTF again? There are all kinds of problems with this statement.
More from the CRAP report: In the “Questions to Initiate Dialogue” section THE ALLEGED ‘INVESTIGATORS’ POSE THIS: “‘We hope that this status report gives you the opportunity to examine some of the practices that we in the wildland firefighting community CONSIDER “NORMAL.”
“The DECISIONS AND ACTIONS AT Twisp APPEAR to be PART OF NORMAL WORK OPERATIONS FOR OUR FIREFIGHTERS. We ask that you (the reader) make every effort to AVOID FINDING FAULT IN THE DECISIONS OR ACTIONS THAT OTHERS MADE. WE HAVE BLAMED IN THE PAST AND IT HAS NOT LED TO PREVENTION. Instead please focus your attention on the LARGER SYSTEM THAT PUT THESE .MEMBERS OF OUR [WFF] COMMUNITY IN THIS POSITION.”.
It certainly seems that not following The WFF Rules is NORMAL and NORMAL WORK OPERATIONS these days on these entrapment and fatality fires. But then again, it’s NOT their fault – it’s the ‘SYSTEM.’ They’re merely victims.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on November 23, 2015 at 9:14 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> One really GOOD thing the Twisp River Fire WFF did was
>> set up a Staging Area where Resources can be kegged
>> up close to the fire for future use.
I’m not even sure there wasn’t some bad decision making going on with regards to THAT, either. The CRAP report now tells us that they were ‘staging’ part-way up Woods Canyon Road at that ‘3 way intersection’ when you reach the first switchback.
That wasn’t what I would call a very ‘safe’ place that day, either.
Post-fire pictures show that intersection was also incinerated when the wind shifted.
As for Twisp River Road itself as a staging area… well… perhaps… but if the wind had done a 180 instead of a 90… I wouldn’t have wanted to be where those videos showed all those vehicles, either.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Interesting quotes from the CRAP report follow:
>>
>> “Prevention is not as easy as learning what people should
>> or should not have done at a specific incident.”
Total horseshit. MOST of the time… it IS that easy.
>> It requires a thorough examination of the system that put people
>> in positions where they felt that their actions were the best option.
Not always. The assumption behind that statement is that you are never, ever going to admit that ‘your people’ are capable of making BAD DECISIONS… so if something BAD happens… it can’t possibly have been their own fault. Again… that’s a pathological ‘denial’ mentality and everyone knows it.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> After first referring to what prevention is NOT – “easy” – it basically
>> says that “LEARNING WHAT PEOPLE (WFF) SHOULD OR
>> SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE AT A SPECIFIC INCIDENT” is
>> in fact “EASY.” Yes, that IS absolutely correct, it is pretty EASY
>> learning the right things to do on fires, like knowing and understanding
>> and following the WFF Rules while all-the-while knowing,
>> understanding, recognizing, and mitigating the Watch Out Situations.
Agree. They could have saved a LOT of typing ( and worthless pages ) in this report if they just opened with…
“We are pathologically incapable of thinking that anyone who works for us could have possibly made any BAD decisions… so this report is going to focus on how 3 more of our own have died without anyone doing anything wrong.”
>> RTS also said.
>>
>> The CRAP report further states: “IT REQUIRES A THOROUGH
>> EXAMINATION OF THE SYSTEM THAT PUT PEOPLE IN
>> POSITIONS WHERE THEY FELT THAT THEIR ACTIONS
>> WERE THE BEST OPTION.”
>>
>> This one is interesting because the fairly recent New Wave
>> of Human Factors research deals with “systems” and
>> seems to avoid placing responsibility on individuals.
>> You know, like the ones that actually make the decisions
>> to follow or not follow the basic WFF Rules.
All ‘Human Factors’ intellectual geek-speak aside… there ARE times when POOR DECISIONS and MISTAKES are made and BAD things happen. If you don’t want the MISTAKES repeated… you HAVE to IDENTIFY them.
Why does the USFS seem to be so ‘pathological’ about not accepting this simple fact of life?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> When you get a traffic violation. is it the fault of the ‘system’
>> or your fault because you were speeding or whatever?
This wasn’t a traffic violation.
Three men died horrible deaths and one has had his life changed forever due to the ‘decision making’ that was going down in that workplace on August 19, 2015.
>> Evidently the same logic doesn’t apply here.
Actually… it DOES if you realize that if these same CRAP people were ‘investigating’ that traffic ticket they would add 10 pages to the front of their report saying… “We are only interested in learning why breaking the speed limit seemed to MAKE SENSE to that person at that time.”
Nothing about SPEED LIMITS at all. Just about WHY it made sense to someone to not be obeying the rules. Again… Total horseshit.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This is a typically complex initial attack situation and yet, there
>> are NO supervisors in the Operations level, e.g. OPS,
>> Division/Group Supervisors (DIVS), Task Force leaders (TFLD),
>> etc. Only ‘points of contact.” These folks were WAY out of sync
>> with the basic Span of Control principle of 5:1; Five Resources
>> supervised by One Overhead.
>>
>> Instead, the CRAP report states several times
>> that: “The firefighters determined that …”
Which firefighters? Yes… you are right… the CRAP report is trying so hard to obfuscate the ACTUAL decision making process that put ALL of those Engines and FFs in harms way that they make it sound like everyone was just fucking ‘freelancing’.
Again… TOTAL FAIL for any ‘investigation’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Another good one is this: “Resources on both the right and left
>> sides of the fire were still trying to ensure that their radios were
>> programmed with the correct frequencies so that they would
>> all be able to communicate with each other.
>> NO ADEQUATE PROCEDURE EXISTS TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE.
Bullshit.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The crews adapted in real time to find a functional solution.”
So what WAS the ‘functional solution’? Semaphore flags?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Are you kidding me? REALLY? No adequate procedure exists …”
>> How about LCES? It requires good, effective communications
>> BEFORE the fire to ensure good communications DURING the fire.
You got THAT right. If you are having those kinds of issues… the ‘adequate’ ( and responsible ) ‘procedure’ is to NOT ENGAGE until you DO have LCES totally ‘in place’ and VALID.
Unless…. of course… you live by this ‘philosophy’…
“RISK a lot, SAVE a lot. LCES is Hillbilly. We’re smarter now. Oooo-rah!”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The CRAP report states: “Air attack was not aware that there
>> were ground resources on the right side of the fire up Woods
>> Canyon Road …” WTF again? There are all kinds of problems
>> with this statement.
Yep. Not credible. Hard to miss FOUR Engines and big yellow bulldozer on a road unless you aren’t looking out the right window of your airplane.
There is MUCH MORE to even ‘that’ part of this CRAP report that they are refusing to talk about.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> More from the CRAP report: In the “Questions to Initiate Dialogue”
>> section THE ALLEGED ‘INVESTIGATORS’ POSE THIS: “‘We hope
>> that this status report gives you the opportunity to examine some
>> of the practices that we in the wildland firefighting community
>> CONSIDER “NORMAL.”
>>
>> “The DECISIONS AND ACTIONS AT Twisp APPEAR to be PART
>> OF NORMAL WORK OPERATIONS FOR OUR FIREFIGHTERS.
They were risking their lives protecting EMPTY HOUSES on PRIVATE PROPERTY!
The report ESTABLISHES that as a FACT.
And this section of the document is absolutely condoning a “Risk a lot, Save a lot” policy as ‘Normal Work Operations’.
US Forestry Chief Tom Tidwell should actually be issuing the following press release in response to this report.
“It is not the policy or the procedure of the US Forestry Service to risk the LIVES of Federal employees to protect unoccupied, privately owned structures on private property in the path of a dangerous wildfire. The actions of US Forestry employees on the Twisp Fire as described in this report are not consistent with US Forestry rules, regulations, policy or procedures.”
OR… Tom Tidwell could shorten that and just say…
“Risk a lot / save a lot” is NOT the policy of the US Forestry Service. Anyone caught following this ‘philosophy’ while in the employment of the US Forestry Service will be terminated immediately”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> We ask that you (the reader) make every effort to AVOID FINDING
>> FAULT IN THE DECISIONS OR ACTIONS THAT OTHERS MADE.
Once again… like they are in elementary school, or something.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> WE HAVE BLAMED IN THE PAST AND IT HAS NOT
>> LED TO PREVENTION.
That’s a whopper right there. It means there was no proper follow-through and clear knowledge of deficiencies in ‘the system’ did NOT lead to safer practices. So how does this new namby-pamby approach think it will succeed when the other (normal) approach didn’t?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Instead please focus your attention on the LARGER SYSTEM
>> THAT PUT THESE .MEMBERS OF OUR [WFF] COMMUNITY
>> IN THIS POSITION.”.
Okay… here’s some requested ‘directed FOCUS’ for ya…
Your LARGER SYSTEM is FUCKED UP.
It is allowing / condoning / encouraging a ‘Risk a lot / Save a lot’ philosophy.
Cut it out.
A pile of lumber, drywall and shingles isn’t even ‘a lot’ in the sense of this own encouraged philisophy. It’s really NOT.
This rampant ‘Risk a lot, save a lot’ attitude is ‘putting these members of YOUR community ( who are actually just ’employees’ but you keep being afraid to even use that word ) ‘in these positions’ ( as you call it ) and YOU are KILLING them.
Please stop it.
It’s not what me and the other people paying your fucking salaries EXPECT.
We are tired of the funerals.
Yours; Reader.
>> RTS
>>
>> It certainly seems that not following The WFF Rules is NORMAL
>> and NORMAL WORK OPERATIONS these days on these
>> entrapment and fatality fires.
That’s why I said above that every family member and/or friend or loved one of any WFF employee should wake up and take notice of this new CRAP protocol that USFS is trying to establish as the ‘normal’ for fatality investigations. It IS ‘condoning’ ( and even encouraging ) a dangerous “Risk a lot / Save a lot” mentality… and that’s only going to get more empty chairs at dinner tables.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> But then again, it’s NOT their fault – it’s the ‘SYSTEM.’
>> They’re merely victims.
No one did anything wrong ( that we can identify ).
Nothing to see here.
These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.
Move along… move along.
PS: I’m still astounded at what is NOT in this report, even beyond NO mention at all of what CAUSED this fire.
A triple-fatality vehicle accident involving taxapayer funded equipment… and no mention whether they even bothered looking at the USFS vehicle maintenance or tire purchase/rotation records. No mention whether there really was some kind of mechanical defect or failure ( brakes / tires, etc. ) or if they even lifted a finger to find out.
Unbelievable. More later.
Also NO MENTION of…
* THE MISSING CREW CHIEF?
No mention of what has been reported about the actual ‘Crew Chief’ for this Engine 642 not even being there with the Engine that day.
If he wasn’t… then whoever was his ‘second’ must have been the one referred to as having been ‘re-tasked’ to help direct chopper drops.
So who did that leave in CHARGE of ‘Engine 642’?
Who was DRIVING it when it left the road?
What were his actual RATINGS and QUALIFICATIONS?
The fatalities were directly related to a US taxpayer purchased Engine leaving the road and this investigation even refuses to mention either mechanical maintenance records OR who was driving it.
If that person was the THIRD in-line on that Engine Crew… then was he actually even RATED to be driving it? What was his level of experience and do the investigators feel that might have contributed to the accident?
No mention of even these fundamental aspects of fatalities resulting from a vehicle accident in a publicly funded workplace.
Once again… the US Foresty Service is just wasting taxpayer dollars here.
The OSHA report will still have to come out in order for anyone to really have the chance to learn from this.
You said:
“The OSHA report will still have to come out in order for anyone to really have the chance to learn from this.”
I’m thinking that may be true. And I’m still wondering how the Inspector General investigation might play out.
The USFS will, obviously, do a CYA on this. Yada yada yada.
Somebody assigned those various crews to go up on that road that the FD IC had, earlier, said, don’t go up there (even though he later, seemingly went along with that happening).
What a complete and total Fuck Up.
I find it interesting that this “Interagency Learning Review Status Report” has no names attached to it. I’ve never seen that before. Even the Yarnell SAIR had names attached to it; Accountability???
OK. It’s getting late and I’m getting brain-dead.
I appreciate the opportunity I have had today to read more details about what happened regarding the burnovers on the Twisp River Wildfire.
I don’t know if, when the engine decided to go north, they had any idea if that was the best thing to do. And so I’m not so angry as you are, WTKTT, regarding the one who signaled them to turn around and go back down to what had “officially” been determined to be the Safety Zone.
But it’s clear that person had no SA regarding what was happening on the road down below.
What a complete mess.
The priorities and strategic principles of fighting wildfires in the Wildland Urban Interface need to be deeply re-thought. I think there’s a bit of that going on. Maybe the Twisp River Wildfire Debacle will help that happen?
Thanks, WTKTT, for documenting this.
I found a couple of interesting things this morning.
First a video on YouTube that has some interesting visuals and includes the interview:
“Twisp River Fire Engine 642 entrapment”
“Published on Nov 23, 2015
The information provided in this video report on the Twisp River Fire entrapment of USFS Engine 642 is gleaned from the “Interagency Learning Review Status Report” put out jointly by the US Forest Service and Washington State DNR and provided by the “Lessons Learned Center”. It should be recognized that this is merely an initial report, and investigation of this incident remains in progress. Thus, additional facts may well become known. Video and photo sources used in this video are related to the incident. This video is intended for educational purposes only, and no profit is associated.”
https://youtu.be/hnOZt9J07_8
Marti.
Thanks for finding and posting the YouTube video. One thing that was readily apparent to me as I watched the video was the vast areas of good BLACK in the lighter, grass and sage fuel types that had already burned. In other words, perfectly good choices for safety. There were plenty of ‘Safety Zones’ and/or Safe Areas and/or Temporary Refuge Areas (TRA) available to these WFF. It appears from the ‘fly-by’ in the video, that they could have readily driven into good black at many locations and been completely safe, rather than travel all the way to the highway and THE DESIGNATED, PREDETERMINED SAFETY ZONE.
RTS,
Designated, predetermined, BOMBPROOF safety zone?
Woodsman
What I don’t know from that video is how much of that good back was actually good black at the time of the burnovers.
I’m really clear, though, that they should never have gone up Woods Canyon Road in the first place.
Marti,
At the time(s) of the Engine and Dozer burnovers, there was PLENTY OF ‘GOOD BLACK’ in fairly light fuels according to the CRAP report on page 8, Figure 2, Estimated fire progression map, from noon to 3 PM. Also, all the structures are hidden in the much denser, timber pockets with very little FireWise mitigation apparent.
The burnovers occurred between 1445 and 1500+ if I read the report right, The estimated fire progression map shows a lot of ‘good black’ along Woods Canyon Road and above the ‘wye’ in lighter fuel areas. These should have been predetermined Safety Zones and /or Safe Areas, to seek temporary refuge in.
These burned over areas, even in the lighter fuels, would have had some heat in them, smoking and probably even some small flames, however, perfectly fine for safe refuge.
These WFF were locals, so they SHOULD have know all this beforehand, including the local winds specific to the Methow Valley. Read the Sunday, August 23, 2015 Cliff Mass Weather blog titled “Was the Fatal Wildfire near Twisp, Washington Predictable?”
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/search?q=twisp
And here’s the link for the Twisp Canyon Fire CRAP status report
http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Twisp_River_Fire_Status_Report.pdf
Gotcha, thanks, RTS!
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 23, 2015 at 8:46 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> I found a couple of interesting things this morning.
>>
>> First a video on YouTube that has some interesting visuals
>> and includes the interview:
>>
>> “Twisp River Fire Engine 642 entrapment”
>> “Published on Nov 23, 2015″
>>
>> https://youtu.be/hnOZt9J07_8
Marti… thank you for finding that today and posting link.
That being said… this video is a JOKE and just made me throw up in my mouth a little all over again.
It’s just some piece-of-shit less-than-amateur-hour thing and I don’t even think it rises to the level of ‘respectful’ of the lives that were lost.
It’s worthless. The MUSIC is TOO LOUD and even though the narrative is a joke you can’t even hear it as they tried to make it like one of those “watch us kick ass” Hotshot season review videos with the LARGE music just blaring and the amateur video editing.
The flyovers are real, however… even though the piss-poor editing doesn’t allow any real ‘context’ for them. They end up just confusing ‘raw footage’ flying across the screen while you struggle to hear the worthless narrative underneath the crappy-and-too-loud music.
And then it ends with Daniel Lyon struggling to speak… and obviously still struggling to even BREATHE since his lungs got toasted.
It’s a joke.
BTW: Do you think Daniel Lyon had ANY idea that when he chose to say… “Those fellas are the reason I’m here today”… that it would have more than one meaning?
Thanks WTKTT.
I didn’t really know how to evaluate the video. That’s kind of why I posted it.
What I gained from the video was more of a sense of the topography in the area which is really quite intense, more so than I anticipated. Google Earth can be overly un-useful for that sort of thing.
But, yeah, other than that, it was too vague to have much signal.
The second interesting thing I found was this, from the Seattle Times:
“Blinded by smoke, firefighters drove off road to their deaths, report says”
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/please-we-need-help-report-describes-deadly-twisp-firefight/
The article is pretty much boiler plate, but two comments caught my eye.
“Karljf 1 day ago
As a thirty-five year fire Captain that has been a wildland firefighter and is a wildland/structural firefighter in Bend, Oregon today, these young and life-experience-limited (kids) are making life-or-death decisions and aren’t “trained”, or have the years of experience that lead to better decisions.
We have to stop placing these young men and women in BAD places. It does mean that homes in the Wildland-Urban-Interface are going to burn down!
Don’t build there in the first place, and Agencies have to be able let them burn to the ground–99% of those homeowners have insurance! And, they pay a lot for because there is many times NO fire protection for those homes! But what I can’t understand is why we kill these people for trees and brush and grass. That is the greatest tragedy of all.
The 14 Prineville Hotshots were the beginning of this long list of tragedies–stop the insanity.”
And then this
“Lucky Girl 23 hours ago
@Karljf Not trying to Monday morning QB this but… I also have over 30 years fire experience- I’m a type III IC, Type I Safety Officer.
1. We always trained to back vehicles into dead end roads so that they were always facing out.
2. In a burn over situation the structure is your first choice to escape the fire.
3. Set hard trigger points, such as if the wind changes direction we pull back to the safety zone, no question asked.
Lastly I completely agree with you that we are putting FF’s with too little experience into very complex situations that they don’t have the experience to fully comprehend.”
And some other reports are saying that the engine might have experienced a blown tire that may have had an influence in the engine going off the road.
Marti,
Thanks again. A structure is a tree with a door, pretty simple. I agree that we need to back off and let the fire run through and area, then go in when it’s much safer; and yes, a lot of them will burn, and that’s okay. Most of them will burn because the residents do no FireWise or mitigation. If you live in the wildlands, you MUST prepare for wildfires and mitigate around your home and structures.
And I agree that seeking refuge inside a structure is wise under most conditions; it’s a lot better inside than outside, unprotected in the hot, unstable, fire elements. I utilize the ‘Three Little Pigs’ logic, with stone and brick house the best.
**
** TWISP UPDATE – DANIEL LYON GOES HOME FROM HOSPITAL
As happens sometimes… a LOT of things seemed to ‘pop’ at the end of last week and it’s been hard to keep up. I’ve also been on ‘airplanes’ again and doing the ‘wall crawl’ thing at various airports so that’s made it hard to chime in.
I’m going to try and ‘catch up’ this evening.
First and foremost… some GOOD ( actually GREAT ) news.
Last week ( and just 48 hours before this ‘Twisp Initial Report’ thing appeared ), firefighter Daniel Lyon was released from the hospital almost 3 months to the day when he was horribly burned in the Twisp / Woods Canyon Road’ fire and became the only survivor of US Forestry Engine 642.
And as he left the hospital ( Harborview Medical Center ) he actually participated in a press conference accompanied by his parents and one of his doctors.
The following MSM article has a ‘video’ from that press conference showing Daniel Lyon speaking to reporters…
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/firefighter-badly-burned-in-twisp-blaze-finally-heads-home/
To be quite honest… he looks better than I thought he would given previous reports regarding the extent of the burns to his face area and the 13 surgeries.
He has obviously had some GREAT care and some very successful skin grafts.
Daniel himself says the hardest thing is still getting his hands working good again, given the extensive burns to his hands and the fact that they had to amputate 9 of his 10 fingers from the tip down to the first knuckle.
There weren’t a whole lot of ‘questions’ from the reporters and Daniel still didn’t have much to say about what happened on August 19, 2013.
Next post will be my initial reaction(s) to this just-released ‘Twisp Initial Report’ and its ‘narrative’ about the circumstances that actually PUT poor Daniel Lyon into the hospital and made him suffer this ordeal… and also killed 3 of his crewmates.
Here again is Mr. Dougherty’s announcement of this ‘new’ report coming out…
—————————————————————————————————-
On November 20, 2015 at 10:04 pm, John Dougherty said…
Here’s the link for the Twisp River Fire Fatalities and Entrapments: Interagency Learning Review Status Report
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=c221a055-a972-478c-be5c-9a16c2d5929c
——————————————————————————————–
Apologies… got the YEAR wrong up above. Type ‘2013’ where I should have typed ‘2015’.
Sentence above should have been…
“There weren’t a whole lot of ‘questions’ from the reporters and Daniel still didn’t have much to say about what happened on August 19, 2015”.
OK for Clarification. I Brought this to the top.
The Resource Orders GM vs the Other Two Crews.
WTKTT Some of your confusion is over the Listing or ICS Qualifications of the Individuals.
If you reference the other 2 HS Orders they are according to the normal.
The Fact that the ICS listings are on the GM order has nothing to do with the Crew Resource order
It is simply added Information that did not or even should not have been there.
In other words the info was added and each individual was not ordered for a specific position
That should not have been on the order but it was. Refer to the Other two Orders.
I have no Idea why Marsh did not end up at the top of the order. The Manifest showed him at the top. regardless of all the other ICS stuff he still should have been at the Top #1 as the Manifest shows.
The ASD put all the info there from the Manifest Not normal but not a catastrophic problem.
The order still met the Minimum Basic requirement. They just added more info than they needed.
The crew was never ordered individually by there ICS Qualifications those were just attached from the Manifest.
WHY— I have given you some possible scenarios, Other than that your guess is as good as mine.
Reference the other 2 orders.
Having a Squad boss Rating is Internal to the Crew make up based on experience and training
They are still part of the crewman but could be broken out with 1 or more of the crew to do a specific job assignment on their section of line. Normally they are never listed on the Resource Order. It is a Internal job assignment in the normal function of a crew.
( Reference way Back on a forest with numerous lighting fires a HS crew could be broke down to 3 or 4 man units with a Squad Boss to attack small, les than 1/4 acre fires. Using senior crewman at the Squad boss level. Smoke jumpers do that all the time and they have done it with Hot Shots in the Past)
2 Crew Bosses in a HS crew basically run two Squads but under the National requirements they are part of the ones on appointments of the 8 required. That is part of the Type 1 Requirements.
Type 2 crews are totally different.
On the Yarnell Fire Steed was bumped up to the Supervisor or Superintendent he may have bumped one of the crew Bosses up to his position or left the crew organization the same.
I do not know if that has or was ever noted or discussed.
Even in two squads run by Crew bosses they still operate as a full crew not two seperiate units.
With in that make up the Occasional Squads may be broken up to carry out different assignments.
on the line they are responsible for. When the crew is building line they are normally a complete unit.
On the Rest time. Most Superintendents would have not put their crew available for 2 days based on the time they were on Fires and the need to take a brake. 12 days with 12 to 16 hour shifts are quite a bit back at their station that would be a good time to take the 2 days Mandatory or not. This days off requirement was developed by the FS due to Safety and Fatigue. Again I think Fatigue was a real part of what happened to the GM Crew not jut the Yarnell Assignment in 100 plus temp. but the accumulation of assignments,
The 14 day is absolutely MANDITORY but brakes can happen before that mandatory time hits.
They can be ordered by the Fire the Superintendent or by Dispatch. The crew is normally sent back to their base for the break.
On the Time sheet question Base 8 and OT is always seperiate on Federal time sheets.
Base 8 is strait time the other hours are OT at time and a half on normal assigned work days
and all OT on days off or over 40 hours. also on a holiday strait 8 is paid at Double time.
The question of Marsh and Steed being on duty till 1030 is normal the Supervisors finish all the time reports to be turned in to the local payroll and make sure every thing is ready for the next call. Also Marsh would have had extra time calling the Crew for the Yarnell request that night
Going back thru the resource orders for Type 1 Crews I found a few differences on how they were posted for the Supervisors.
Some just showed Crew Boss
some showed Superintendent and Assistant Superintendent
Some Showed Superintendent and Captain
one Showed STLD and STLD
None but GM listed the ICS Jobs as well. as Squad bosses.
All seem to list the crew bosses under the 2 leaders.
Evidently their is no real STANDARD?????
Well…life is odd. No updates to give ya because I began to clean the cabin when nurse called and said Sonny signed himself out. His son asked me direct my opinions being he is with him and is a rn. I think TeX is going to pull through this his way and how just like I’ve done that does not meet modern society way of things but he needs to follow up with doc to get important meds if his goal is to regain strength… I would not want to be in hospice either so I understand. Tonight to minimum tomorrow I am home and maybe hike and explore with pets so if you read this Sonny,..I am glad you are happy and on your way to your way of recovering… See ya.. I believe in you and I know you are weak…so take it easy
Reply to joy a collura post on November 21, 2015 at 5:35 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> I think TeX is going to pull through this his way
I have known any number of people ( family members included ) who were sent to ‘hospice’… but also ended up checking themselves OUT of it. In one case… the diagnosis was ‘organ failure’ and the doctors thought there was nothing that could be done. Turns out the ‘organ failure’ was being caused by all the chemotherapy to treat a cancer. The chemo ceased in hospice… and this family member got BETTER once all that poison was no longer being pumped into them.
Hospice is not always automatically the ‘end’ of anything’.
It totally depends on what is actually wrong and what the ‘possibilities’ really are.
>> joy a. collura also said…
>>
>> he needs to follow up with doc to get important meds if
>> his goal is to regain strength.
They wouldn’t have installed 2 more stents if there was no hope.
It also takes some TIME for whatever part of the heart was being starved of proper bloodflow ( because of blockages ) to ‘revascularize’.
So yes… followups are important. There is a 10 percent chance with any ‘stent’ placement that the cells of the artery wall can grow THROUGH the mesh of the stent and cause another blockage in the same place.
That’s why the STATIN drugs are recommended following any ‘stent’ placement. They help the blood be ‘slippery’ and less chance of another blockage.
Thank you for all the updates, Joy.
I hope Sonny continues to show improvement(s).
Oh I did check myself out but fortunately my son is RN and helped. Federal Hos;pitals can detain you with an ankle bracelet. I feel stronger now than I was in the Hospice and if I die soon I do not want it to be in a facility that only allows a shower every other day even if you are pissing on yourself. My kid had that piss bag off me in a heartbeat while it had been left on there too long and cause the Staf infection. But I will clear up and get now my daily shower.
Sorry for the double post again maybe a brain farc?
LIVE IN THE MOMENT…
hmmm…this was interesting topic- Joy’s health –
especially when my medical massager who massaged John MacLean and I spoke recently on just that topic- my health.
She said it can seem unbelieveable to someone who don’t know the inside information and just looking in—but you Joy have not done the work to see how to come up with a plan for your own concerns and you put all your energy in helping others—disregarding self—
RN nurse- Sonny’s son was so gentle…so caring…so warm…tonight when we went to Nichols West—thank you Simon for squeezing us in with your reserved packed place—good salmon—
He was so superb- he treated his dad exceptionally well and me. Just a wonderful wonderful visit.
His son asked- what’s new with your health Joy- you see his son saw my labs and stuff and told me to get it handled back in 2012 and even got me hooked to a natural doctor in Texas–as I told him I do the labs and thermograms and scans and stuff but never yet took them to discuss with a professional—my trust LACKS there—especially when 11-12-15 Sonny gets to his scheduled heart appt. and tell him GOOD CLEAN BILL than in the parking lot has a major heart attack and surgery immediately and goes on life support to than remove him off than to hospice and he signs himself out and does what the Irish do—
Sonny—I will never try to change the man yet I feel I always have to carry forward due to my health living always happy even when it hurts because its what works for me—bothers the shit out of my LEO August born pops and grandma how damn optimistic I am…or how forgiving I am brushing things off my shoulder with such ease—when I want to—
I have focused so much time to others and taking the very stones thrown at me and the very stones that were thrown and fell have created this “empire” of a wall to my life—quite a barrier built too.
When I die- I know I will be remembered for the most purest and simple thing and that is the soft emotions that spring from my heart—I care. I error along the way yet always here to rectify ANY situation. I cannot mandate another to care in the manner I do—nor expect it. However, if I take the time out in my life for you —to respect you— I expect respect as well and if you imbalance it—I don’t work that way—one way streets—thats in downtown Phoenix–like Washington Street…
I have accepted a situation yet having tough time with accepting it without inner complaints with some glazing outwardly…Feelings activates the same pain-sensing neurons in my brain that physical pain does…my eating and sleeping habits has been so imbalanced because I am so in tune to help others-
embarassing my family unit wearing ratty sweat gear that should of been burnt in that fire versus dressing how I use to…I also want to cry but find myself empty of the tears—Cutting my hair to look like Charlize Theron in Mad Max: Fury Road (http://www.imdb.com/media/rm349566464/rg1610062592?ref_=nmmd_rg_md2) but stopping midstream when Sonny and his son call me and pick me up and now I look like Charlize Theron in MONSTER (http : / /w ww . imdb.c o m/media/rm96442624/tt0340855?ref_=ttmi_mi_all_pos_26)
I need to go back to desert walking for balance—and bulls-eyeing my desert targets with my six shooter—did you know mountain man Sonny can out shoot me with a rifle but I am the bullseye gal with a pistol—
Please remember to set your scales back ten pounds for the Holiday week—Happy Thanksgiving—I am on online respite—maybe even in person respite—
My father always said when drunk I AM WHAT I AM-
and my add on to that
“if you don’t like me—turn your head—walk away—simple as that! —but keep the drama out—”
I learned the past week watching another—in the end—you know who cares—the more I watch my family die and people in the community—the more you will see me avoid doctors and do it MY way and have people like John MacLean speak at a convention without fact checking with who he is talking about—yet his own friends reach me and say I am sorry Joy—
John, you ever think to come to me—be direct—dissolve your perceptional/doubts versus clouding a roomful of smokejumpers?
Get to know WHY I am so stubborn and do not do things traditional?
Walk beside me and you will see the truth-
I am not to be led or followed in this here life—
Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 2:44 PM Fernanda sent out a GROUP email:
TITLE You are not alone
Hello, everyone. My “day job” – I cover the Southwest as Phoenix Bureau chief for The New York Times – takes me to all corners of Arizona and New Mexico, and exposes me to lots of different people, different lifestyles and different stories. As I like to say, every day at work is another day I learn a new lesson.
This was particularly true this week. I spent three days in Albuquerque interviewing men and women who have been living on the streets for a profile on homelessness in the city. One of the people I interviewed was Ruthie Bailon, a Kewa Indian who goes by her tribal name, Cushie. Cushie is a recovering drug addict. The first time she got high was with her biological mother, whom she’d met in Albuquerque when she was a teenager. From that point on, Cushie’s life took many sad turns – she lost her children, her home, her dignity. She has been clean for several months now, but every day is a struggle.
I asked Cushie, what’s the greatest lesson you learned while living on the streets? “Ask for help,” she told me. “I learned that it’s okay to admit I can’t do it alone. It’s okay to ask for help.”
Growing up in the Kewa Pueblo, Cushie’s aunt and uncle – her adoptive parents – taught her that she had to figure things out on her own. “We’ll throw you in the river and you have to swim to shore,” they would say. So she watched what people did and how they did it to learn how to do things for herself. No one ever gave her a chance to ask for help.
Cushie likes to doodle as she talks. On this page, she drew the river:
So often we think we can handle our problems on our own. So often we dismiss other people’s problems because, hey, they have to deal with it, just as we deal with the challenges we have. Thing is, we need one another to share our sorrows, and our joys, and our doubts, and our questions. That is how we build a caring world around us.
Life is about team gold, not individual glory. That is something the Granite Mountain Hotshots believed in and lived for. You’ll learn about it in my book, The Fire Line, which is available for pre-order on Amazon, Barnes & Noble and Books-A-Million.
A wildland crew needs 20 good people to build a good piece of fire line. Cushie needed true friends to help her recover and get out of the streets, which she has. She is now working to getting her kids back. And I’m rooting for her.
With love,
Fernanda.
————————–
thank you Fernanda—however to reply—my life was much simpler to COMPREHEND when alone but reflecting back its been nice to open up and let people in even when some think or have the odd perception “She just wants to belong”…horse shit. The only thing I want to BELONG to is my 50BMG events with my old shooting pals—and my only gun left- my six shooter as I go forward in life back to just being the desert walker and exploring and trick spinning and doing the impossible shots with my eyes closed and still hit bullseye…thats where I BELONG—under the moonlit stars next to a cowboy campfire—the rest of this here world seems like just bullshit—
I hate hospitals. HATE THEM- don’t even like visiting them yet I did something WAY FOREIGN to my life and I spent 15-20 hours a day there because I give a shit about Sonny making sure he got his needs met when at his weak time—and avoided him getting tied into the horseshit world of hospitals.
anyone ever been in one?
They suck. I watched too many sit soiled in their beds to have staff tell me the person is a fall risk so don’t wash them or move them and they don’t even wash people daily; the staff—who gives these organizations that kind of power? If you shit or piss your bed—you should be able to immediately attend that even if its me helping not staff— freaking liability lawed up sick twisted freaking world—I seen Sonny this week when I arrived covered in blood from ears, nose, mouth and the freaking amount of it was awful and its sickening to look back but not anyone cleaned him up—I did and I get “oh my maam—you have to wear gloves”…what? The old miner who has had his leg dangling from a chainsaw hit with gush of blood pouring out and never went to er and let it heal—you gonna tell me that kind of person can be put on house arrest ankle alarm if he leaves the hospital…is it a place for healing or a prison?
I get the part Sonny wants to be be home and heal there but I am angry he just lives on being him doing the very things that caused us hardships—it can also cause potentially life-threatening complications after heart surgery, including tremors, seizures, hallucinations, delirium tremens, and even death.—also can interfere with several organ systems and biochemical controls in the body, causing serious, even life-threatening complications. That is his way of living…I ain’t gonna knock it—just because I don’t…shit- maybe the stuff is great- I should start but I don’t want to —it’s this struggle with my journey with Jesus— that’s my life problem I have—
Recently the pastor asked how come I stopped going to church—
I guess I like trailing and the road is my church not a building so who is to say you have to go to a building to serve and communicate with Him—we are all made different…
I am glad you are out Sonny-
even though you outlaw— did it yourself.
Get well.
I cancelled some of my plans tomorrow so try and get up there to Yarnell-
but not until I get a call that you are okay for a visitor—
Sometimes the BEST healing is rest and being alone-
let me know.
I won’t call you so you do not get annoyed by incoming calls-
Keep getting stronger-
After heart attacks, patients who had done any drinking during the previous year had a death rate that was 73% higher than patients who did not do any drinking. Even occasional drinking – as they defined that term in this study – increased the risk of death. The type of alcohol consumed – beer, wine, and/or liquor – did not make any difference. We were told you had two major ones in four days—so just saying—
Joy.
I’ve had my issues with doctors/hospitals too. Some still festering.
I have diabetes. I have to take insulin. But that’s ALL I take. The stuff they tried to give me for my neuropathy was worse than the neuropathy itself.
But diabetes did almost kill me.
My dad got diagnosed with 4th stage lung cancer about a year after I already figured out he had it. WTF?
And then they did chemo. I knew it would kill him, probably earlier than if they hadn’t. But he went along with it. What could I say?
And what happened with my mom, I still can’t bear to talk about. It wasn’t hospice that killed her, though. But I’m tied up in knots trying to figure out all the weird thoughts about what led her there.
My very very very best to both you and Sonny. From the bottom of my heart.
Namaste.
Bob,
Base 8 applies to federal employees. Hazard pay too. GM were city of Prescott employees not fed, They would get pay how ever the city handles it. My guess, for full time, it would be base pay and OT. If A.D casual hire, it would be straight hour for hour, no H-pay, holiday, time and a half etc. Doesn’t really matter though because they show a pattern of not following 2:1 on the Doce fire. Until I see the time for the rest of the crew, I don’t know if they all had this over 16 time or not. I’m trying to understand what factors were in play that led to the deaths of almost an entire shot crew. Did Sonny say that the crew looked “spent”, tired, etc?
Might not be a ‘standard’ for type 1 crew resource orders but I’m saying there is a common practice which has become “the standard.” Their RO is not common at all. I am trying to process and understand the big picture of how everything was managed at Yarnell.
What are the factors that led to the decision to have the crew leave the black and head toward the ranch? All the factors. The way the entire official investigation has been handled leaves me to believe that there are a ton of factors leading up to the tragedy. I want to study all of them. I want the wildfire industry to learn everything that can be learned to prevent anything like this from ever happening again.
Woodsman,
You asked: “What are the factors that led to the decision to have the crew leave the black and head toward the ranch? All the factors.”
I can give you some of them and not particularly in chronological order. They were asked around 1600ish by OPS to go help STSP Cordes defend structures in Yarnell and they demurred, instead stating that they were ‘committed to the black.’ How about the PFD attitude of ‘Structures first and firefighter safety last as a last resort’ per PFD Wildland Chief Willis in the YHF News Conference. And this – after he says: “we were able to monitor the radio frequencies” he says something to the effect of we knew they were heading down to the structures below. Or the “HOLD THAT LINE AT ALL COST” radio briefing by OPS Willis on the NM SNF, May 2013 Thompson Ridge Fire, with the GMHS there.
And of course, Marsh’s Normalization of Deviance attitude of getting away with risky behaviors time after time, however, recently bolstered by all the attaboys for the work they did on the preceding Doce Fire. They were glorified by the public and the media as local heroes.
Then there was the Abilene Paradox ‘inability to manage agreement’ or let’s just ‘Go Along To Get Along’ and ‘Don’t Rock The Boat.’ Groupthink fits right in there as well, Afraid to speak up or disagree. Preventing contradictory views from being expressed and then evaluated. Illusions of invulnerability, illusions of unanimity in the group with silence from individuals or the group viewed as agreement, and (in)direct pressure to conform to the group.
How about Steed’s PFD personal evaluation: “I think as leaders we need to support each other and back up each others’ decisions and actions.” Good idea IF – and ONLY IF – they are good ‘decisions and actions..’
And then there is the Marine Corps attitude of team and group and unit over individualism, with three GMHS Marines. This is what PFD Willis said in his 24 July 2013, military.com interview: “… Every [GMHS] knew that they were gonna protect … Yarnell. And if they laid down their life, it’s just like the Marines, they knew what they had to do and there couldn’t be any more honorable way to die than the way they died.” WTF!?
No one was ordered to leave their Safety Zone, the perfectly good black. They left of their own volition based on the above and more,
It went from “we’re on the ridge, in the black” to ‘hunker and be safe” to insistently, “bring them down to The Ranch” several times to insistently, “we’re in the black” several times to either “we’re not going to make it” or “we can’t make it” to hiking off their perfectly good Safety Zone through the green down chutes and chimneys and into a deadly bowl, without notifying OPS or without the benefit of a REQUIRED LCES lookout or notifying Air Attack to keep an eye on them. They basically hiked right down into the fire!
They could have dropped all their gear and RUN the 580 yards to the BSR in under 3 minutes instead of their feckless attempt to cut a Deployment Zone in the brush for that time. WTF!?
This was summed up quite succinctly at an informal October 2013 YH Fire Staff Ride during the Integration Phase: “THIS WAS THE FINAL, FATAL LINK IN A LONG CHAiN OF BAD DECISIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES; WE SAW THIS COMING FOR YEARS.”
GM Thru Prescott City had some kind of Contract with The Feds.
Prescott City set their pay scales.
The contract allowed $34.00 per hour per Employee when on Fire. I believe the State had to pay the same. That rate put money in Prescott City at the difference of what they were paying each of the Crew .I have never seen their exact rates but they were paid base 8 and overtime not sure about Hazard pay but maybe.
They were different than AD pay because of the Contract for a Type 1 crew.
If you look below at What WTKTT posted on hours on Steed and Marsh.
They are posting 8 regular and then the OT for the Month of June.
So that’s what I referred to. I think Prescott had a good deal. I have not seen that Contract
You would have to go back thru the chapters to pick all of it up the Human factors are many. Marsh had a lot of pressure on him and
Steed was sitting ready to take over he was getting Pressure from his Supervisor Willis to make the crew look good to keep it in good with the City Council. Basically the Hero push get their name recognized.
Marsh had been making a lot of decisions with Good outcomes in other words taking a lot of chances which severial Superintendents had talked to him but he never listened. My Big concern was what McDonough said about the Ten Standard orders being Hill Billy. Modern Fire Fighters Don’t use them . That was his training on the crew. Scared the hell out of me. That’s some off the top of my head. Marsh was also part of a Squad that he ran that was caught on a fire Smoking pot with the Squad the HS crew was disband for that but evidently the FS did not put any thing in his record. Gary has quite a bit of this Info as well.
Like I said that is just off the top of my head and quick.
But there was a lot of things going on in the crew as well Like Praying during shift and bringing crewman to God. Trusting in God to take care of them maybe rather than the rules.
It gets messy and I fear even Messer before we get all the Facts.
Bob,
For most of my 26+ year career as a HS Supt., I prayed before and during shifts asking for guidance and wisdom from God, through my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And then I prayed after shifts thanking Him for answered prayers. I absolutely and TOTALLY trust Jesus to guide me and protect me while following The WFF Rules. He provided us the guidance and wisdom I needed and he protected me and our Crew.
RTS,
Thank you for filling me in on a lot of details. 26 year HS supe? Badass. I may have met you somewhere over the years.
One of the many things that has bothered me in all this, which I know you will understand, is all this talk of ‘deployment zones.’ That has never been part of my training. In fact, I’ve never really heard of the term until the last few years. Maybe the blue shirts have brought the concept to the wildland community. SAFETY ZONES is what we keep up with, not a pre-planned place to deploy a fire shelter. How about a freakin’ tennis court for a ‘safety zone?’ WTF man. There is something wrong with telling forces, ‘you can deploy here, you can deploy there.’ It’s like pre-planning and telling your forces to expect to have to deploy.
LCES. You keep it always. If you don’t have it all, you disengage and fix your shit. I hate carrying the damn fire shelter, especially that new heavy SOB. If we ever screw up bad enough to need it , I want it do doubt as it’s a last resort to survival….but we can’t rely on it to bail us out of bad decisions. Every time I read somewhere that we need new one (again) I cringe. Follow the rules and you won’t need a damned fire shelter.
Thanks for your insight, RTS, you know what your talking about.
RTS– Yes I did the Same in Prayer.failed in my list to say
GM did a lot of Group Prayer which seemed quite strange
for a HS Crew.
Get in a hurry and short state things I am not a late night person usually in bed and out by 1030/1100.
Woodsman–A good thought we have got many of those Bullet points WTKTT has a lot of the written record.
I go off my memory which you would say ain’t that great at my senior years and at time I have to admit that.
Just ask my Wife——-
Bob,
I would have felt blessed having a Crew that prayed together. We prayed individually and in small groups. There are a lot of unbelievers in the WF world that believe in things like ‘luck’ and such. And there are also a lot of believers that believe in God and trust in Him rather than themselves.
Here’s a link to verses regarding group prayers if anyone is interested.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Praying-Together/
Not a problem here with that.
There were some things this summer that were strange about the whole thing and some being baptized or talked to about joining the church
A lot further than Group Prayer..
Just a piece of information I mentioned that was discussed earlier this year.
It sounded like they may have relied on God when pushing the Safety Envelope. instead of safety. Nothing more concrete than that.
Bob,
Once again. I have NO problem with any of that either.
The Bible tells us that we are absolutely to rely on God, through Jesus, and NOT rely on ourselves. But we still have to make good choices based on that reliance. The GMHS clearly did NOT make good decisions that day based on a steady Drift Into Failure of several years of progressively increased Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
Bob,
I’m not really interested in the contract Prescott had or how they got paid. Violation of 2:1 is what I’m interest in.
Thanks for the rest of your information. How about you list ALL the factors you know about for me as bullet points? Maybe we can all come up with a list? We can have topics, like work/rest and list evidence as bullet points under that heading (like worked 18 hrs on DOCE this date, 20 hours this date etc.)
Someone dial up the red phone and get OCYMB (Gary) in here to add to the list.
Thanks Bob and God bless,
Woodman
I am not sure if we ever had an actual copy of their Contract with the Federal Government and if it also included the STATE.
The State could have been paying off the SWCC Contract for GM
They were different than an AD crew based on the slim info we have.
Also Gary has my E-Mail if you want to talk on there.
Ask him for it.
I fall back to the 10 and 18 for my bullet points.
I get lost in all the human factors, and rely on RTS.
Funny he use to work for me now I rely on his insight.
He worked for me as a Crewman in 1973 on the Oak Grove HS Angeles NF.
Yes I said and they were spent. If you ever did a double shift in underground mining you certainly could understand the dangers of loosing judgement from overwork. In Fierro New Mexico I was doing a raise when my stulls gave way and I fell at least 30 ft. Well part was being young and green at raise mining and the other being on a double shift before. Fatigue certainly plays dangerously with lives but too many bosses overlook that factor.
**
** THE TWISP FIRE STATUS REPORT
Whoops… Apoligies… I submitted a large comment below about the same time John Dougherty posted an important link and it sort of ‘pushed’ that important message down… so here is that message John just posted brought ‘back to the top’ here so it won’t get missed…
—————————————————————————————————-
On November 20, 2015 at 10:04 pm, John Dougherty said…
Here’s the link for the Twisp River Fire Fatalities and Entrapments: Interagency Learning Review Status Report
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=c221a055-a972-478c-be5c-9a16c2d5929c
——————————————————————————————–
And there had already been 1 ‘Reply’ which is also re-posted up here…
>> On November 20, 2015 at 10:21 pm, Marti Reed replied…
>>
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> Thank you JD!!
Good night. Sonny can do much all morphined up. I’m heading for walk than head to cabin to crash…I think as you see the night unfold and I go Sonny will reply to wwtktt. Good points made yet Eric Marsh was not spent. Grant’s face and cheek area was rosy red but Grant looked OK. Kevin and Donut are the ones that stood out to me as SPENT. Chris looked tired but not spent. Andrew looked preoccupied but not spent like lost in thought. I could go down the list but not all men looked or appeared spent but overall because of the faces of Donut and Kevin that statement became part of the hikers account. Yet Marsh was not. Which we later learned maybe because he had been off work for injury but that day as we told reporters and investigators in evacuation not knowing who was who…it made sense. Sunday is my medical masssager. I did give mood to one of my medical massagers because I feel you all are right so I told Sonny since his family is going to be here this weekend I am doing Joy things..not Sonny but still may bring his dog in and visit just not stay 15-18 hours like I have…good night. Get well Sonny…
…you old weathered cowboy…it was a maze getting out of there Sonny..sleepwell
The maze ..meaning getting out of hospice building just now…heading to Walmart sonny than cabin…I am going to try and visit with your dog this weekend.. K…enjoy reading I m tonight
The most beutiful sight for sore eyes when Joy showed up. I have never regretted knowing her kindness and.never regretted saving her life that June 30, 2013. I can understand a ladies complaint of sliding down 29 foot boulders, but then we are both alive and the boulders were not hurt either.
Don’t know if Brent reads this. Here is a man who showed up in his wheel chair (paralized waist down) He has heart and gave me some and while i am at it thank for all the kind words from JD investigators.
**
** GRANITE MOUNTAIN WAS NOT FULLY AT THE END OF A 14-DAY
** WORK CYCLE WHEN THEY ACCEPTED THE YARNELL ASSIGNMENT
Reply to Woodsman post on November 20, 2015 at 6:53 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> WTKTT:
>>
>> Thanks for finding out about the work/rest days worked issue.
>> I hope that is all the truth because like I said before, if it wasn’t,
>> oh man… in deep, deep shit someone would be.
Hopefully the following will bring some clarity and put this recurring issue to rest once and for all.
** THE SHORT STORY
Granite Mountain was NOT at the END of a 14 consecutive-day work cycle ( that would then REQUIRE a day of rest ) on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013 when Eric Marsh accepted a new assignment for the next day down in Yarnell.
Payroll records obtained by ADOSH from the City of Prescott Human Services Department show that both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed had BOTH taken 2 full days off on Sunday, June 16 and Monday, June 17.
NOTE: ADOSH only requested ( and only received ) payroll records for the full year of 2013 for Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed… but if BOTH Marsh and Steed were ‘off work’ on June 16 and June 17 it is safe to assume the entire Granite Mountain Crew was also ‘off work’ for those 2 full days.
On Tuesday, June 18, Granite Mountain was then assigned to work the new ‘Doce’ fire outside of Prescott. That BEGAN a brand new ’14 day’ work cycle for Marsh, Steed and the GM crew.
The same payroll records then show that the entire Granite Mountain Crew did, in fact, work a shift every single day for the rest of June ( up to and including the day they died ) but that Saturday night ( June 29 ) when Eric Marsh ‘accepted’ the assignment for Yarnell was still only the 12th workday into the new 14 day cycle.
Sunday, June 30, 2013 was then the 13th ‘work day’ into their current 14 day cycle. If they had finished that work shift in Yarnell they could have still worked the Yarnell Fire the NEXT day ( Monday, July 1 ) before they would have HAD to DEMOB and take the required rest at the end of 14 consecutive work days.
All that being said… I still believe those men were DOG-TIRED on Sunday, June 30, 2013, and Eric Marsh SHOULD have turned down that day’s assignment in Yarnell when it was offered the night before. The ’14 days on before a day off’ rule is not fixed in stone. It is still ALWAYS up to the Supervisor of a Crew to decide what shape his crew is in and whether they could use some ‘time off’ to remain at a ‘safe’ operational level… regardless of whether you are at the ‘end’ of any artificially established ‘work cycle’ or not.
And I still believe what Tex (Sonny) Gilligan said he observed on Sunday morning when he and Joy Collura were actually WITH the Granite Mountain crew after their long hike out to the fire that morning.
Sonny said those men already looked SPENT and TIRED even then at the beginning of that fateful work day for them… and I believe a man who has worked in the mines knows exactly what spent / tired men ‘look like’.
Sonny relayed this observation about how SPENT the men looked that morning in even one of the very first public interviews ever conducted with him ( and Joy Collura ) shortly after the tragedy.
Arizona CBS Channel 5 News
Article Title: Witnesses to Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: August 26, 2013 by Morgan Loew
h t t p ://www.kpho.com/story/23261486/witnesses-to-yarnell-hill-fire-break-silence
——————————————————————————–
YARNELL, AZ (CBS5)
From first appearances, Tex Gilligan and Joy Collura make an unlikely pair. He is a weathered old cowboy and she is a blonde chef who grew up in the Valley. But their mutual appreciation for the Arizona countryside landed them on the Weaver Mountain range and in the path of the Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30.
They came face to face with the Granite Mountain Hotshots that morning.
“When we passed them they were SPENT. We looked at them.” said Gilligan.
They spoke ( to the GM Crew ) on three separate occasions that morning, talking about the location of the fire line and the firefighters’ strategy.
On the way off the mountain, they found themselves on a ridge overlooking a ranch one mile below. An area around the ranch house had been cleared of brush, and it appeared to be a safe spot to fall back to as the fire made its approach.
But Gilligan knew the terrain below and the thick vegetation would make the hike to the ranch perilous.
“The deception is what can kill you. It’s a trap. It’s actually a basin full of manzanita,” said Gilligan.
The hikers dropped down the backside of the mountain, into terrain with less fuel.
An hour later, the Granite Mountain crew found themselves on the same ridge.
But they made a break for the ranch.
“One decision made the difference in 19 lives,” said Gilligan.
———————————————————————————–
And I still believe that fatigue ( and, perhaps, no small amount of cumulative
heat exhaustion ) contributed to poor decision making that day.
Which means I also agree with ‘Woodsman’ just recently said down below…
>> On November 17, 2015 at 5:28 pm, Woodsman said…
>>
>> Fatigue = altered mental status = poor decision making.
>> The absence of competent overhead to keep somebody
>> from doing something stupid = dead firefighters.
** THE LONG STORY
The following ADOSH folder holds all the ‘payroll records’ and ‘work hours’ that ADOSH obtained for both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed for the entire year 2013… up to ( and including ) June 30, 2013…
/ ADOSH / Dropbox / City of Prescott Fire — GMHS /
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABOStla3oytVAZisTxzqiVfa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS?dl=0
That folder contains ( among other things ) these 2 documents…
Filename: “OSHA-ERIC MARSH 2013 hours.pdf”
Filename: “OSHA-JESSE STEED 2013 hours.pdf”
Here are the relevant payroll records for Eric Marsh…
Marsh’s hours ( starting with May 24, 2013 )…
———————————————————————————–
MARSH, ERIC S 05/24/13 05/24/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 05/25/13 05/25/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
2 days off… May 26 and May 27.
MARSH, ERIC S 05/28/13 05/28/13 541 HOLIDAY-NO 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 05/29/13 05/29/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 05/30/13 05/30/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 05/31/13 05/31/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/01/13 06/01/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
2 days off… June 2 and June 3.
MARSH, ERIC S 06/04/13 06/04/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/05/13 06/05/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/06/13 06/06/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/07/13 06/07/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/08/13 06/08/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/08/13 06/08/13 270 OVERTIME-W 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/09/13 06/09/13 270 OVERTIME-W 13.50
MARSH, ERIC S 06/11/13 06/11/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/12/13 06/12/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/13/13 06/13/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/14/13 06/14/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/15/13 06/15/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
2 days off… June 16 and 17.
NOTE: The Doce fire started on June 18.
MARSH, ERIC S 06/18/13 06/18/13 100 REGULAR EA 4.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/18/13 06/18/13 101 REGULAR PA 4.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/18/13 06/18/13 270 OVERTIME-W 7.50
MARSH, ERIC S 06/19/13 06/19/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/19/13 06/19/13 270 OVERTIME-W 12.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/20/13 06/20/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/20/13 06/20/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/21/13 06/21/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/21/13 06/21/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/22/13 06/22/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/22/13 06/22/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/23/13 06/23/13 270 OVERTIME-W 18.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/24/13 06/24/13 270 OVERTIME-W 14.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/25/13 06/25/13 100 REGULAR EA 2.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/25/13 06/25/13 101 REGULAR PA 6.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/25/13 06/25/13 270 OVERTIME-W 2.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/26/13 06/26/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/27/13 06/27/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/28/13 06/28/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/28/13 06/28/13 270 OVERTIME-W 6.50
MARSH, ERIC S 06/29/13 06/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/29/13 06/29/13 270 OVERTIME-W 8.00
MARSH, ERIC S 06/30/13 06/30/13 101 REGULAR PA 24.00
———————————————————————————–
And here are the corresponding payroll records for Jesse Steed…
Steed’s hours ( starting with May 24, 2013 )…
———————————————————————————–
STEED, JESSE J 05/24/13 05/24/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 05/25/13 05/25/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
2 days off… May 26 and May 27 ( same as Eric Marsh ).
STEED, JESSE J 05/28/13 05/28/13 541 HOLIDAY-NO 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 05/29/13 05/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 05/30/13 05/30/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 05/31/13 05/31/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/01/13 06/01/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/01/13 06/01/13 270 OVERTIME-W 9.50
STEED, JESSE J 06/02/13 06/02/13 270 OVERTIME-W 16.50
STEED, JESSE J 06/03/13 06/03/13 270 OVERTIME-W 16.50
STEED, JESSE J 06/04/13 06/04/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/04/13 06/04/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/05/13 06/05/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/05/13 06/05/13 270 OVERTIME-W 4.50
STEED, JESSE J 06/06/13 06/06/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/06/13 06/06/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/07/13 06/07/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/07/13 06/07/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/08/13 06/08/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/08/13 06/08/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/09/13 06/09/13 270 OVERTIME-W 20.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/10/13 06/10/13 270 OVERTIME-W 18.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/11/13 06/11/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/11/13 06/11/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/12/13 06/12/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/12/13 06/12/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/13/13 06/13/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/13/13 06/13/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/14/13 06/14/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/14/13 06/14/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/15/13 06/15/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/15/13 06/15/13 270 OVERTIME-W 2.00
2 days off… June 16 and 17 ( same as Eric Marsh ).
NOTE: The Doce fire started on June 18.
STEED, JESSE J 06/18/13 06/18/13 100 REGULAR EA 4.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/18/13 06/18/13 101 REGULAR PA 4.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/18/13 06/18/13 270 OVERTIME-W 7.50
STEED, JESSE J 06/19/13 06/19/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/19/13 06/19/13 270 OVERTIME-W 12.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/20/13 06/20/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/20/13 06/20/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/21/13 06/21/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/21/13 06/21/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/22/13 06/22/13 100 REGULAR EA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/22/13 06/22/13 270 OVERTIME-W 10.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/23/13 06/23/13 270 OVERTIME-W 18.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/24/13 06/24/13 270 OVERTIME-W 14.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/25/13 06/25/13 100 REGULAR EA 2.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/25/13 06/25/13 101 REGULAR PA 6.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/25/13 06/25/13 270 OVERTIME-W 2.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/26/13 06/26/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/27/13 06/27/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/28/13 06/28/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/28/13 06/28/13 270 OVERTIME-W 6.50
STEED, JESSE J 06/29/13 06/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/29/13 06/29/13 270 OVERTIME-W 8.00
STEED, JESSE J 06/30/13 06/30/13 101 REGULAR PA 24.00
———————————————————————————–
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continued from previous message containing payroll records for Mash and Steed )…
So BOTH Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and it can be assumed ALL of Granite Mountain ) were off work for TWO full days on June 16 and June 17, 2013.
The ‘Doce’ fire started on June 18 and Granite Mountain went back to work… but their 14-day work/rest cycle had already been ‘reset’ because of the 2 days off on June 16 and 17.
June 30, 2013 was only the 13th day into that new ’14 day work cycle’.
So their ‘work/rest’ status was NEVER the actual reason that the SWCC Dispatch Center first reported them as ‘unavailable’ to work the Yarnell Hill fire the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013. In the next ‘Reply’… I’ll get into more of ‘that’ story.
Uh oh…………………..18 hour days. Not 2 to 1. Yes, I know of the exceptions, travel, 1st operational period in IA, etc.
Couple more thoughts:
If you don’t document something, it didn’t happen…If you do document something, and have it signed, it happened.
Educated guess on my part: GM was working as city employees. If they were A.D. casual hires for the FS they would show straight hours on their CTR (crew time report). Since they show regular hours (8) and overtime (over 8), I believe they must have been working as city employees. For whatever that’s worth, quite possibly totally and completely useless information.
Woodsman
Look what the cat dragged in………..
OSHA Issues Notices To U.S. Forest Service For Safety Violations At Thirtymile Fire Near Winthrop, Wash.
SEATTLE – The U.S. Labor Department’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration announced today it has issued serious and willful notices to the U.S. Forest Service for alleged job safety violations which existed at the time of the Thirtymile Fire near Winthrop, Wash.
Richard Terrill, OSHA regional administrator in Seattle, said the job safety violations were identified as a result of its investigation of the Thirtymile Fire following the deaths of four USFS firefighters on July 10, 2001.
The notice for willful job safety violations stated that the USFS did not provide a place of employment that was free of recognized hazards that could cause serious harm or death from burns, smoke inhalation and fire related causes. Specifically, OSHA noted that all of the 10 Standard Fire Orders and 10 of the 18 Watch Out Situations listed in the National Wildfire Coordinating Groups’s Fireline Handbook were violated. OSHA also cited the USFS for failing to conduct inspections of its firefighting operations.
The notice for serious job safety violations noted the following: work-rest cycles developed by the Forest Service were not followed, an incident commander for all fire stages was not clearly assigned, and fire shelter deployment procedures were not developed for firefighters whose escape routes were compromised. OSHA also noted the lack of safety and health job performance evaluation criteria on current performance standards for USFS supervisors and managers.
According to Terrill, many of OSHA’s findings are consistent with those the USFS identified in its own internal investigation of the fire. “Wildland fire fighting will always have its dangers,” Terrill said, “but Forest Service officials have expressed their willingness to implement improvements that can reduce the risks. OSHA will assist in that effort where possible.”
###
Editor’s Note: A willful violation is defined by OSHA as one committed with an intentional disregard of, or plain indifference to, the requirements of the Occupational Safety and Health Act and regulations. A serious violation is one in which there is substantial probability that death or serious physical harm could result, and the employer knew or should have known of the hazard.
Wrong.
Documented signed on yhf vanished
Joy,
You mean the timesheets are missing?
Thank you!
Woodsman
I never paid much attention to pay records… My areas I am passionate about dispatched records…aerial…EMT…ycso 911 calls…dispatcher radio logs…and a few areas I won’t mention because soon it may happen to come
Here’s the link for the Twisp River Fire Fatalities and Entrapments: Interagency Learning Review Status Report
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=c221a055-a972-478c-be5c-9a16c2d5929c
Thank you JD!!
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 19, 2015 at 9:25 am
Let me preface this whole ‘Reply’ by saying that everything you have been pointing out about why the GM resource orders might look the way they do is still ‘good information’… but there are some ‘facts’ that contradict some of the ‘guesses’ you have been making.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I am not saying that I am saying the State had a Manifest that was outdated.
>> They used that instead of the updated one and just thru marsh in according
>> to Alphabetical order.
The resource orders for Granite Mountain in both the original ROSS system printout and in the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document are NOT in ‘Alphabetical order’. A few of them near the end are, but the majority of those 20 C-5.1 through C-5.20 resources orders for the GM crew are NOT.
Also… see the excerpts below from Arizona Dispatch Center Lead Norval Tyler’s statements to ADOSH during his testimony. He says they ( ADC ) called Marsh directly that night ( Saturday night, June 29, 2013 ) and REQUESTED an up-to-date ‘roster’ from him to enter into the ordering system… and Marsh obliged them right away by EMAILING them a (supposedly) CURRENT ‘roster’ for Granite Mountain, and THAT was used to created the ‘J- Resource Orders’ entries.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> MARSH WAS IN CHARGE OF THE CREW
There’s never been any doubt about that.
The ongoing ‘mysteries’ surround the way Marsh ( and Steed and the Crew ) were actually ‘ordered’ up’ as per the official resource orders.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Manifest occurred because the State went around the normal
>> Dispatch procedure of going thru Region for crews out side their own.
See Norval Tyler’s ADOSH interview transcript below.
He is actually suggesting it was SWCC itself ( Regional Dispatch ) that was telling them ( ADC ) exactly what to do to ‘get’ Granite Mountain.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A new or added Dispatcher can do these things without knowing it
>> and if the head. Dispatcher dose not catch it then you are going
>> back to clean up the mess.
According to Norval Tyler ( Arizona Dispatch Center Lead )… he, himself was involved in this ‘ordering up’ of Granite Mountain. There were no ‘new’ or ‘added’ Dispatchers involved.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> GM was dispatched thru the R3 dispatch as a type 1 Crew.
Yes. And according to Norval Tyler… SWCC came right back and said Granite Mountain was ‘unavailable’… but only because they ( SWCC Regional Dispatch ) THOUGHT they were ‘still assigned’ to the ‘West Spruce’ fire.
According to Tyler… the initial ‘rejection’ of the first SWCC order for that Type 1 crew had nothing to do with any TIME or WORK/REST constraints. SWCC just didn’t realize that at the same moment GM was being called for… they were actually being RELEASED from the ‘West Spruce’ fire.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> That manifest is updated as the crew is put back up as available.
>> If a crewman or Supervisor is replaced that is noted immediately
>> I am assuming they were working direct and not thru the State.
Yes. The eventual ‘order’ for GM went ‘direct’… because SWCC was confused about whether they were still working the “West Spruce” fire or not. Turns out they were NOT… but instead of SWCC then listing GM as ‘available’ and fulfilling that Type 1 IHC request the NORMAL way ( through Regional SWCC Dispatch )… they then started telling Norval Tyler at ADC how to ‘go direct’ and order GM that way… which is what Norval Tyler and the ADC then proceeded to do.
They ASKED Eric Marsh ( via phone ) to send a ‘roster’ ( manifest ), and Eric Marsh did that very thing right away ( via email ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A Manifest may have been sent earlier in the Year to the State and
>> that is what they had.
Not true. Norval Tyler ( ADC ‘Lead’ ) testified to ADOSH that during the process of ‘ordering up’ Granite Mountain the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013, Eric Marsh himself sent them a up-to-date copy of the ‘GM Manifest’ to use for that night’s resource ordering.
Norval Tyler was the Arizona State Forestry Arizona Dispatch Center ( ADC ) “Lead” circa June 30, 2013… and he was ‘on duty’ there at the ADC facility the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013, when Russ Shumate started initiating all of his ‘resource orders’ from Yarnell after the fire escaped his Initial Attack.
ADOSH interviewed ADC ‘Lead’ Norval Tyler.
That ADOSH interview is in this folder in the online ADOSH Dropbox…
/ADOSH/Yarnell Hill Investigation/AZ Forestry Division/Employee Interviews/Transcripts
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AADdoBoDI8G09OZ4zcykqBUpa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/AZ%20Forestry%20Division/Employee%20Interviews%20By%20ADOSH/Transcripts?dl=0
IMPORTANT: Notice in Norval Tyler’s ADOSH interview below he ‘dances around’ the issue with regards to SWCC initally saying Granite Mountain was ‘not available’ for Sunday, June 30, 2013. The way he describes it… SWCC just thought they were still assigned to the “West Spruce” fire… and THAT is why they were showing in THEIR system as ‘unavailable’… and that it had NOTHING to do with whether the SWCC system was showing them as ‘unavailable’ due to work/rest. More about this in another posting coming up shortly.
From Norval Tyler’s ADOSH interview…
———————————————————————————
832 Were you working ( at the ADC ) on Saturday January 29th, uh, towards the
833 evening?
834
835 A: January 29th?
836
837 Q2: I’m sorry. June, June 29th.
838
839 A: I was.
840
841 Q2: Um, and I just wanna clear up some stuff with regarding of, uh, ordering of
842 Hotshots.
843
844 A: Okay.
845
846 Q2: And, uh, maybe if you could just describe what, uh, the real story.
847
848 A: I can. And I can tell you, so at that juncture all interagency Hotshot crews
849 type 1 are a national resource. So at this time they are controlled by
850 Southwest Coordination Center; not by us. So if we have a need for type 1
851 crews, we place the order to SWCC. And I actually have a printout that
852 maybe you haven’t seen ‘cause it wasn’t on the resource order. But I took a
853 screen shot of exactly how the process went. It went from us to SWCC to
854 Prescott Dispatch. They retrieved it and then we went direct to Granite
855 Mountain. If you like – if you guys would like to see that. It’s got the time on
856 there as well. So I can pull that out. But I can talk you through it if you want
857 to. What, what’s the question?
858
859 Q2: Um, well, that was – is, is, is my understanding is that, um, similar to what you
860 just talk about how this national process works. But since there’s, there’s
861 something different when it’s – because it’s a State fire that you have the
862 ability to bypass that and…
863
864 A: Not with the type 1 crew we do not.
865
866 Q2: Not with the type 1 crew.
867
868 A: No.
869
870 Q2: So how, how then is it that, uh, Eric Marsh gets e-mailed?
871
872 A: Eric Marsh gets e-mailed. He’s…
873
874 Q2: And who does that?
875
876 A: We do. So he’s – so Granite Mountain is Prescott’s crew under the State
877 umbrella. So even if it wasn’t Eric Marsh in Granite Mountain, if it was
878 Smokey Bear Hotshots that we got an order and were pushing it to, we could
879 e-mail that order to anybody. So we get the roster from Eric Marsh. So the
880 process I can – let me try to break it down a little cleaner for you. We – the
881 incident commander has a need for two type 1 crews. We do not say who,
882 what or where. We push an order up for two type 2 – two type 1 crews.
883 SWCC says we can fill one with Blue Ridge right now. And we’re gonna,
884 quote, “shop” the other one to see where they’re at. They think that Granite
885 Mountain is still attached to Prescott National Forest because they were on the
886 fire with the Prescott. So they pushed the order electronically to Prescott
887 National Forest Prescott Dispatch Center. Prescott Dispatch Center says, “No,
888 they’re not here. They went home last night. They are here.” They let
889 SWCC know that. SWCC calls us and says, “Hey, they’re home. Call them.
890 You can use them.” So we call Eric and say, “Hey, we need a roster for your
891 crew.” He e-mails us a roster who’s gonna go. We assure that they’re
892 plugged in, disposition A through Z, these 20 members. We plugged them in
893 electronically. And then we call Eric and say, “We’re gonna e-mail you your
894 resource order because that’s your documentation that says approximately at
895 this time you were assigned to this and this.” And that’s how they use that to
896 show. And that’s why each person’s roster’s on there to say, “Okay.” When
897 it comes to billing they can say 1, 2, 3, 4, 20. Or estimate around this time.
898 Then they take their fire time reports, or whatever they need fiscally, and they
899 match up and they can use that. But it’s a tracking mechanism that’s
900 estimated time. It even says on the resource orders. They all say, ETA and
901 ETD because we don’t know.
902
903 Q2: Mm-hm.
904
905 A: You tell me that you’re going to there. But how can I be held the onus
906 responsibility to say because I don’t know. The final authority is when you
907 showed up there the incident commander says you were there. When you
908 finish your time sheet he says you were from here from A to B from 2:00 to 3
909 o’clock.
910
911 Q2: Right.
912
913 A: Ours are tracking mechanisms that are estimated. So that’s how the process
914 worked for there. If that clears anything up.
915
916 Q2: It does, thank you. Yeah.
———————————————————————————
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continuation of previous message regarding Norval Tyler’s ADOSH testimony )…
So Norval Tyler himself says that immediately after he ( he uses the term ‘we’ ) called Eric Marsh on Saturday night and REQUESTED an up-to-date ‘roster’ from him… Marsh himself emailed them back right away with a CURRENT ‘roster’ for the GM crew… and THAT is what was used to enter the Granite Mountain resource orders that evening ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 ).
Once again… Norval Tyler said…
————————————————–
So we call Eric and say, “Hey, we need a roster for your crew.” He e-mails us a roster who’s gonna go. We assure that they’re plugged in, disposition A through Z, these 20 members. We plugged them in electronically.
————————————————–
We can only assume that the ‘roster’ that Norval Tyler is referring to is the same ‘Crew Manifest’ that then appeared at the bottom of the same ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document that we have already been discussing.
So if that is the case… the mystery would STILL be how the information in that GM Crew manifest turned into the exact ‘resource orders’ that ended up as orders C-5 ( for the whole crew ) and then the individual C-5.1 through C-5.20 resource orders for all the individual crew members.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There are no underlying management things going on here.
We don’t really know WHERE the ‘mysteries’ are coming from here with these GM resource orders. Might be ‘management’. Might be them ( Charlie Havel and/or Norval Tyler of ADC? ) making their own decisions on what to enter *or* it might be them just entering things exactly the way Eric Marsh TOLD them to *or* the explanation(s) might even lie elsewhere.
There is nothing in that copy of the ‘GM Roster/Manifest’ which ADOSH was told was the ‘original’ which is saying that Jesse Steed needed to be ‘ordered up’ as a TASK-FORCE-LEADER (TFLD), or that Eric Marsh should be ‘ordered up’ as a STRIKE-TEAM-LEADER-CREW (STCR), or even that the standard CRWB ( CREW-WORK-BOSS ) designation normally used for ‘ordering up’ the Supt. and Asst. Supt of a Type 1 Hotshot Crew should suddenly be used for just the ‘Squad Bosses’ of the Granite Mountain Crew.
THAT part of the ‘ordering process’ for Granite Mountain remains a mystery.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Adding Marsh to the List to finish out the 20.
>> Who ever did it put it in Alphabetical order.
Again… the ‘Granite Mountain’ C-5.1 through C-5.20 resource orders in the official ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document are NOT in ‘Alphabetical Order’.
The resource order for Superintendent Eric Marsh ( ordered up as an STCR – STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ) just comes out of ‘nowhere’ way down in slot number 18 of the resource orders.
OK Ill try again.
First the Manifest.
The Manifest is used for a couple of things.
First it is handed in at fire camp when the crew checks in listing the crew and their Red Card Qualifications.
Second if they Fly on a Helicopter it also has their weight with Packs The Saws are Weighed along with tools to add to the Flight weight of each load at the Heliport.
So The State not understanding the Red card list verses the Normal J-Fire Order that normally comes from SWCC for Type one crews Ended up filling the order list with the ICS Rating listed on the Manifest. If you look at that Manifest It Shows Marsh as Superintendent and Steed as Captain that is what should have appeared on the J-Order Not the ICS info.
The State Messed up putting Marsh at C5-18 when the order was filled out. Pure and simple they screwed up.
The SWCC screwed up on the RR. With no in between for GM
Marsh was responsible to put the crew available at the end of the ordered RR.
Marsh did not follow RR requirement and agreed to being dispatched early and not following RR. Of course no body wanted to jump into that can of worms and the SAIT did not mention it. They should not have been assigned to the fire for another 24 hours. They should not of posted available for another 24 Hours.
In the end the crew was not prepared for assignment as they in some cases were out parting till late the Night of the 28th and 29th thinking they were on RR. AS has been alluded to Maybe the reason McDonough was sick the 30th possibly along with several others. But that is another story.
The Normal J-Orders would have looked like The other Type 1 Crews if SWCC had filled the GM Order.
The Reason GM was shown as still on the West Spruce Fire.
They were released from the Fire to at least 2 days RR thus ordered from the Fire and still listed on the fire until the RR was complete. SWCC should have not allowed them to go on shift till that RR was completed. Marsh was responsible to NOT put them available until the RR was completed. That is why they were not listed as available and still shown attached to the Fire.
Forest Type 1 Crews Go thru there Forest Dispatch on availability.
and Forest Dispatchers will not release the crew till RR has been completed. The Superintendent tells their Dispatcher when they arrive home they are on so many Ordered days RR and that is noted at Dispatch. I have refused crew assignment for that reason many times because R4 Dispatch or even NIFC dose not list the RR just the Unavailable which is attached to the fire they returned from and are not actually released until the RR is complete The Fire dose that to insure RR. At least that is what the FS dose and has for many years. A two week 14 day assignment can require a 4 day RR.
Again this GM Crew had no one but Marsh in between them and the SWCC. This is another Hybrid problem with a crew like this and The SWCC should have known what they were doing.
Unavailable is unavailable that is why they were still shown attached to the west spruce fire.
A little More–
When I say The State went around the Normal order for type 1 SWCC Crews I am saying they did not follow normal procedures when SWCC told them they could order direct do to the Agreement with Prescott city and State Agreement.
The problem with that and it always has been with NIRHS Crews they are not a local resource and must be released by the National level. So by telling ASD that they could order direct they released their responsibility to ASD which held them not responsible for the Unavailable listing for any reason. Another HYBIRD problem.
Back to the J-Order. In this day and age of Computers and even for several years during my time.
There was a complete order in the computer on the Crew with all the 20 person IAHS crew. When ordered you could jump in and put in the Order # Fire Name and Date and send it to the Ordering agency SWCC had that. Forest Dispatch had that, R3 had that. The Forest The region and SWCC all got copies and one is sent to the Fire.
Because ASD filled out the order They typed in all the data from the Manifest rather than the normal Data. Which caused GM’s order to be different than BR.
If there are any changes in the crew list that is up dated.
None of that has any thing to do with the Manifest.
The Manifest being sent around was not a J-Order so the ASD Filled out a J-Order using the manifest and caused all of this confusion on ICS lingo and Marsh some how ending up C-5-18 on the list.
Another note on a IRHSC Dailey when available if there were any changes to the crew that was given to the Forest who sent it to the region and Region Sent it to NIFC Boise and so on. That comes right off the J-Form That would include them Being on RR and Not Available Daily.
IRHS Crews available, Unavailable and Assigned are listed Daily out of NIFC and each Region. Being a National resource They are under the Control of the National Dispatch centers.
My Cobwebs are clearing up with all the Questions so my fault if I missed some of the info answering specific Questions rather than the entire Dispatch procedures. As you can see it is quite complex.
It is quite a Paper trail and a Crew is not available until the Fire releases them and that includes RR from the order of the Fire. They should not have gone back on duty till The First of July. That was Marsh’s responsibility in this case.
That is a direct Violation of RR rules.
One more thing you may be confused on.
The resourse order for the Crew is only one order that list all the 20 members of the crew they are not individual orders.
C-5 Type 1 crew order. GMIRC
Then each individual on the crew is listed on the order from C-5-1 to C-5-20.
They general list the 4 overhead first then the Crew.
Superintendent
Captain
Crew Boss
Crew Boss
16 Crewman
Each Crew boss is responsible for 8 Crewman
The Squad boss break down is eternal if the crews are broken down smaller like the Sawyers or a 5 man squad to do something seperiate from the crew or the Crew boss may take a 8 person group that are his guys and take on a seperiate problem Spot Fire ETC.
Each 8 man Squad has at least 1 saw and 1 swamped and 6 other crewman with various tools.
Normally the crew are just listed as Crewman on the Resource order.
For got to ADD
Each Crew truck has the Crewboss Driving and his 8 assigned Crewman on board.
The Superintendent and ASST. are normally in the Pickup truck.
How ever it looks like Marsh went seperiate..
Nope. Keep trying.
OK What????
I have a hard time believing this:
“So The State not understanding the Red card list verses the Normal J-Fire Order that normally comes from SWCC for Type one crews Ended up filling the order list with the ICS Rating listed on the Manifest.”
Arizona dispatch doesn’t understand the different forms? As busy as they are each summer? It’s what they do.
Or this:
“The State Messed up putting Marsh at C5-18 when the order was filled out. Pure and simple they screwed up.
The Arizona dispatch center, which interacts with SWCC on a regular basis, which handles state resources, of which GM was well known, being a city fire department crew which had a type 1 IHC status, the leader and founding member was in charge (who also was apparently instrumental in the creation of a state wildfire academy…the super of “the home crew”….accidently put Mr. Marsh at position C5.18 on the resource order? …and as a STCR? No where even close to the top? I don’t know. “Pure and simple they screwed up?” The leader of the dispatch center was on duty that night. I don’t know. I’m a hard one to convince.
Now the work/rest conclusion you have come to, how do you know for sure this is how it went down? It’s all Marsh’ fault? I don’t dispatch, I get dispatched. I really want to know how on earth the computerized systems in use today doesn’t throw up a red flag here and stop someone from doing this. It’s taken on faith? I can work 30 straight if I just ‘fib a little?’ How about 45? That would be some sweet jingle, right there. If this is the case I strenuously suggest we look at that pronto on a national level to make sure it CAN NOT HAPPEN!!!!!! That would be a place to start.
If, like you are saying, the responsibility and liability left SWCC hands when they said ‘unavailable’ and kicked it back to state, then the state took Marsh’ word for it………someone had to know(speculation.) The state has access to ROSS too. I’m having a hard time with placing the blame solely and entirely on Marsh here, who happens to not be here to defend it.(RIP) No one else had any idea what was going on? How do you know for sure?
Thanks Bob,
Woodsman
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Now the work/rest conclusion you
>> have come to, how do you know for
>> sure this is how it went down?
I’m still working on another post here but one of the highlights is going to be…
According to time sheets given to ADOSH by Prescott HR department… BOTH Marsh and Steed took TWO days off on June 16 and on June 17. Then the Doce fire started and they ( and the Crew ) went back to work on June 18.
They all worked straight through and at least 1 shift a day for the rest of June and until the moment they died…
…but that still means they ( Marsh / Steed / Crew ) were only on their 13th consecutive work day when they decided to lay down in that box canyon and take their chances.
Technically… if they had lived… they could have finished that work shift, then still worked the next day ( Monday )… and only THEN would they be at the ’14 consecutive work day’ limit and would have been required to DEMOB and take at least 2 days off.
The reason that SWCC first said that GM was ‘unavailable’ when Russ Shumate was placing his Yarnell resource orders on Saturday night had NOTHING to do with work/rest requirements. It really didn’t.
It all had to do with total confusion about whether GM was still ‘assigned’ to the ‘West Spruce’ fire or not.
I’m working on yet another post that might continue to clear some things up here… but in the meantime you are still talking like you have totally researched this and that what you are saying are ‘facts’… and not just the way you ‘think it should have been’.
Example…
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Reason GM was shown as still on the
>> West Spruce Fire.
>> They were released from the Fire to at
>> least 2 days RR.
That is NOT the case.
TIMESHEETS in the public record for both Marsh and Steed show that they worked a 16 hour shift on the ‘West Spruce’ fire on Saturday, June 29, 2013… the day before the Yarnell tragedy.
Their timesheets say they were working the ‘West Spruce’ Fire until 10:30 PM on Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
Forget the fact that that is NOT possible based on other evidence and that this indicates that both Steed and Marsh were ‘gaming the system’ and listing themselves as ‘on the clock’ somewhere when they were NOT.
Even if BOGUS… that 16 hour shift they were claiming for Saturday, June 29, 2013 did NOT put them AT or OVER the 14 day limit.
That would have been the 13th consecutive day of work for both of them ( and the crew ).
They ( Marsh, Steed and Crew ) were actually on their 14th consecutive day of work ( without any days off ) on Sunday at Yarnell itself.
If they had lived until the end of that Sunday work shift… THEN they would have had to have been put on RR status and listed ‘unavailable’ up at the SWCC.
But they died.
Correction for above.
I looked at this other post I’m working on here and I actually screwed up the real math up above.
I forgot that the timesheets for Marsh and Steed show them as having taken TWO days off prior to the Doce fire… and not just ONE.
Both Marsh and Steed claimed ZERO hours for both Sunday, June 16 AND Monday, June 17.
Then they ( and the GM Crew ) went back to work on the ‘Doce’ fire on Tuesday, June 18th and everyone worked a shift every single day ( according to the timesheets ) up until the moment they all died.
But because of the TWO days off ( June 16 AND June 17 )… that means that working on Sunday, June 30 in Yarnell would have been their 13th consecutive work day ( and not their 14th as I said above ).
So if they had lived… Granite Mountain COULD have finished their shift on Sunday… worked the entire next day ( Monday )… and THEN they would have been required to take time off.
MONDAY wold have been their ’14th consecutive work day’… if they had lived and stayed on that assignment.
WTKTT:
Thanks for finding out about the work/rest days worked issue. I hope that is all the truth because like I said before, if it wasn’t, oh man… in deep, deep shit someone would be.
The 14 Days is on one Fire a Mandatory 2 Days Off.
How ever they had 12 straight when the left the
West Spruce Fire. At that Time of the Fire season taking the 2 Days rest put them Back up for any assignment. If they were working 16 hour shifts that is even a better reason to take the Mandatory then with only 2 Days till the Mandatory they would not have been sent out of State. When A HS Crew gets back to base the get their equipment ready before they go off shift. Thus the late off time.
Since they were not shown as available that would be the only reason they were on 2 days off. The crew was already out celebrating at the Bars.
14 days is not a hard and fast rule if they worked 10 or more striate they could be put on 2 days off. and not put the crew available till they had the 2 days. Those things happen all the time.
If they had been sent to a big Fire that would last some time 5 or more days. They would have had to be Sent home 48 hours after they were dispatched that just dose no happen.
That’s my conclusion based on the info.
If any one has a better explanation for the Resource Order Screw up have at it.
It is not a proper Resource Order For a IRHS Crew. Evidenced as well by the 2 other IRHS Crews sent to the Fire. And the 100’s of them I have filled out. Required by the National Interagency Fire Center.
It is not any different to day than it was 25 years ago except they use the Computer Resources order which is transmitted rather than hand written by each Office That started more than 10 years before I retired.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 20, 2015 at 2:34 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> One more thing you may be confused on.
>>
>> The resourse order for the Crew is only one order that
>> list all the 20 members of the crew they are not
>> individual orders.
Well… YES… they ARE ( in the sense that each one DOES have it’s own official resource order number.sub-number.
As the Lead Dispatcher of the Arizona Dispatch Center himself ( Norval Tyler ) said…
———————————————–
We assure that they’re plugged in, disposition A through Z, these 20 members. We plugged them in electronically…. And that’s how they use that to show. And that’s why each person’s roster’s on there to say, “Okay.” When it comes to billing they can say 1, 2, 3, 4, 20.
———————————————–
I get what he means there. There is an order for the CREW itself… but for future BILLING purposes they go ahead and create these 20 separate ( and distinct ) resource sub-orders for each of the 20 crewmembers. Makes sense.
So no… I’ve never been ‘confused’ on this point.
Only other way I can imagine that ‘Type 1 IHC’ resource order going into any order-tracking computer/database would be if there really was only ONE resource order for a ‘Type 1 IHC… and then the ‘Special Needs’ text field then listed the roster/manifest showing all 20 crewman’s names.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> C-5 Type 1 crew order. GMIRC
Yes. Top level resource order for ‘entire crew’… just like an E-XXX resource order for a piece of ‘Equipment’ like an ‘Engine’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Then each individual on the crew is listed on the
>> order from C-5-1 to C-5-20.
Yes… as OTHER ‘individual resource orders’. Makes sense.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They general list the 4 overhead first then the Crew.
>>
>> Superintendent
>> Captain
>> Crew Boss
>> Crew Boss
>> 16 Crewman
Yes. That is exactly what the OTHER TWO resource orders for the OTHER TWO ‘Type 1 IHCs’ crews look like.
But NOT the resource order(s) for Granite Mountain.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Each Crew boss is responsible for 8 Crewman
Granite Mountain’s Manifest said they had THREE ‘Squad Bosses’ on the line that day… so someone had less than 8 guys under him.
Once again… from the GM Manifest that was emailed to ADOSH and they were told it was an ‘original copy’ from the Yarnell incident…
And here is what the GM Manifest said about ‘Squad Leaders’ and their QUALS…
Whitted, Clayton | Squad Leader | CRWB, ICT4, FIRB, FALC, EMT
Carter, Travis | Squad Leader | CRWB, DOZB, ICT5, FALC, EMT
Caldwell, Robert | Squad Leader | FFT1, ICT5
THREE Squad leaders for Sunday, June 30, 2013.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Squad boss break down is eternal if the crews
>> are broken down smaller like the Sawyers or a 5
>> man squad to do something seperiate from the crew
>> or the Crew boss may take a 8 person group that
>> are his guys and take on a seperiate problem
>> Spot Fire ETC. Each 8 man Squad has at least 1 saw
>> and 1 swamped and 6 other crewman with various tools.
Again… that’s probably how things ‘usually’ work… but there was nothing ‘usual’ about Sunday, June 30, 2013.
We know that GM listed THREE Squad bosses for Sunday, June 30, 2013… but no one ever asked the lone survivor ( McDonough ) how that broke down into actual ‘assignments’ that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Normally the crew are just listed as Crewman on the
>> Resource order.
Yes. That is exactly what the resource orders for the OTHER TWO Type 1 IHC Crews looked like.
But Granite Mountain’s resource order beared no resemblance.
Even just the ‘SQUAD LEADERS’ were being ordered up as ‘CRWB’… but not even all of them. Caldwell was listed as ‘Squad Leader’ on the Manifest but his resource order still was only ‘ordering him up’ as an FFT2 and not a CRWB like the other two Squad bosses.
Bob…you are in for a surprise…I discharged sonny to Va Community Living Center …Hospice…Heroes Way… Ponderosa Pass…his room is near hospice unit coordinator…he has a moonlit star by his name…perfect. The staff here are exceptional. He has an amazing bed with free movies…TV…and internet. I wanted to hear his voice so he read a lot of these recent comments…not feeling too hot…chest pain…blood loss still…etc…list goes on…the day began where Sonny with his new bff the catheter bag since 11-12-15…and pretty gown were going to sign himself out and called for me. I went to bed by 4am than up and going by 6:38am thanks to Sonny change of plans…taking a hike would not get him far…the alarm alert was ON if he got out of bed…fall risk…this has been in my opinion not nurses his best day yet except he is typing now with his eye filled up typing Bob on his new fun bed computer. Neat to see him more alert. Check this out. A nurse had in her notes Sonny had acute delirium so I asked how she came to that and she said I asked Sonny where he was and he said VA…that was at Yavapai regional…So I said how can she make that judgement when he passed out at the Va and the Va transport him to yrchospital so in TeX mind he is correct because he was last at Va and he is just coming to and none told him he was moved…so you see how people can screw someone record up just by what they say or don’t say…like Willis wrote excellent on marsh but examine the checkbox area…
Anyways everyone has been good to him here at the Va…sonny dad died here so it’s hard for him to be here.
I will be here until 2 than crash…than do the laundry I started at Sonny’s…
JThat Bob sure knows his onions when it comes to figuring out how gm could have been sent to their death. Joy andd I were at the very spot they went downth. You see I saw that the fire could change instantly at any moment. Cowboy McKinaey haed wARNED them not to get caught down there in that brush. Joy was going to skirrt the canyon. aa worse idea. You see I could care less whether the Helms survived or houses burned in Yarnell. I knew that fire could change instanty at any moment. Fortunately I had no orders from headquarters so it was survival. Now with five stints in my heart I am having to take a respite at the va in Prescott. The people here are a god send to us vets. Never seen such caring for the lives of vets. I am sshedding a few tearas for the loss of those men. My Dad died here as a machine gunner ww1. He lied about his age to get in but to me he was a hero and survivorf until cancer got hIM, THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR GETTING AT THE TRJUTH.w
They deserve the truth.
Prayers for your recovery, Sir.
Woodsman
thank you.
woodsman
sounds like you been there and done that
sounds like you are the surivor of the woods
Get well Sonny I have 1 stint but I have been good since.
Hopefully yours wont slow you down. Being almost the same age I know what you are going thru and it makes me feel vulnerable as well
They loaded me up with five stints so no shortage of wire in my arteries.
GREAT to hear from you, Sonny.
You hang in there and continue to get well.
From one Irish to another…
Slainte!… Saol fada chugat.
( To your Health! (and) Long life to you! )
Thanks WTKTT. One of my kids has a shamrock tatoed on. All my kids are sharp as tacks and proud of their Irish heritage as I am. Thanks for the Gaelic — I sometimes kid the Germans that they migrated from Ireland and that is how they got their smarts.
Sonny~
We’ll get at the truth. Eventually. I promise. We promise.
My heart breaks at what you are going through. I lost my mom this year. I lost my dad in 2007. Both of them flew away dancing, in their own ways.
For both of them, hospice was awesome.
All of my blessings are with you.
Namaste.
Marti
Joy. My best to you. Take care. Thank you for keeping us up to date.
I’m crying. I know what it’s like to be there.
Hugzzzzzzzzzzz.
Thank you for EVERYTHING.
Namaste.
~Marti
Wanted to bring this up to the top as it was getting lost below a question
From WTKTT That I answered this morning way down on the thread.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-315985
This is about the conversation on the Manifest.
Thanks for ‘pulling this one up here’. Things were running out of room ‘down there’.
I actually replied to what you posted with a ‘new’ parent comment up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-316089
As it turns out… Norval Tyler’s ADOSH interview has some ‘answers’.
Norval Tyler is/was the Arizona Forestry Arizona Dispatch Center Lead… and he was ON-DUTY the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013 when these ‘funky’ resource orders were going down for Granite Mountain.
Here’s a quick Twisp Canyon Fire update:
Supposedly, there will be a 23 page “Status Update” that is to be released this Friday, November 20th at 9:00 AM.
I allege that we can be assured that it’s almost certain to be less than factual.
Recall that Twisp Canyon Fire CRAP leader John Phipps said:
“It’s a myth that you can really figure out that so-and-so did something or so-and-so didn’t do that,” he said. “We’re trying to figure out how it made sense to the people at the time.”
“We want to shift from holding individuals accountable to an assumed perfect system, to an understanding that we have excellent people operating in an imperfect system.”
He added that, “the event was tragic enough without our response adding to it.”
Entire article
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/aug/23/winds-shifted-shortly-before-flames-overcame-firefighters/
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post November 18, 2015 at 9:07 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I allege that we can be assured that it’s almost certain to be less than factual.
I really like that sentence. It’s realistic… but still hopeful that men/women who are supposed to be known for their character and integrity will still “do the right thing” ( maybe ).
All they have to do is tell the TRUTH ( All of it ).
It’s not hard.
Do you think John Phipps is even AWARE that there is already a significant amount of evidence out there in PUBLIC that ‘outlines’ what really happened… and that whatever he and his cohorts come up with needs to ‘jive’ with that… or it’s gonna hit the fan?
It is refreshing on one hand to know the FS Retirees organization has been busy the past 2 years trying to get The Forest Service to go back to the old and proven Investigations of the Past Following the Ten Standard Orders. They have a good Connection to Washington but so far no movement It may take internal Pressure.
From current employees upset with no definable facts of what happened.
You can not learn from the current process.
THERE ARE NO LESSIONS LEARNED.
Pick them out your self and good luck to ya———–
No one needed to die or get sever burns this year— all they had to do in IA was stop before engaging and review and follow the 10 and 18 make a safe plan and engage.
Urban Interface is a Death Trap for Wild Land Fire Fighters.
Bob,
Exactly. Way to put it into words so well! Hard to do when everything is going to hell, but dammit, you just have to!
Woodsman
Reply to joy a collura post on November 17, 2015 at 11:00 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> 11pm. Sonny was taken off life support yesterday but I had to go run to
>> Gilbert-Chandler to get his dog…police thing…so they placed him back
>> on because he failed tests…today has been a moment to moment day
>> and very weak but much better not sedated…he communicated with
>> closed eyes and frow gestures light to deepen.
Tell him to hang in there.
>> joy a. collura also said…
>>
>> I want to thank everyone for the continued love warmth and support.
>> The good thing in all this is Tex is Irish…
Ah shure… then he’ll be back on his feet in no time. I’m Irish myself.
>> joy a collura also said…
>>
>> so I like to be optimistic and feel with the prayers he will get through
>> but I am realistic too…sucks is all…good night.
No matter what happens…. remember…
Fágann an bás pian sa chroí nach féidir le héinne a leigheas; fágann an grá cuimhne nach féidir le héinne a ghoideadh.
( “Death leaves a heartache no one can heal; love leaves a memory no one can steal” )
Getting near to pack my gear…Sonny has had another moment to moment…ICU..try room…ICU…try room…etc.
Transport kinda day a few times too many.
Weak only in body but not mind or spirit because he rasped weakly when that man told him what he knows on the fire. You just got tagged Shumate and Hall today. Now maybe you two can share more before their stories surface. PUBLIC. Sad. Very sad. All the efforts made to make areas HUSH and to the extent we heard. The extent to redact and make documents vanish. Thanks to new information I know what foia records need to be obtained. That was the best part of today and sitting in ICU today…thank you. Hope sooner than later this finally comes out with really good credential folks…
Just left. Heading to walk the dog. Probably come right back though. Tough moment to moment day…respiratory… Cardiac., pneumonia… Mind is still sharp. Weak. Still blood loss all over… Ears, nose, etc.
Vitals looking good…proud of that in comparison to other hours… Now…thank you for the visitors today. It was nice to see him be so alert yet must take a lot out of him to do it…I’m heading to walk dog n wash his sheets case family but had to thank everyone for the prayers… It means so much to me…his family work a lot but will be there over the weekend…someone asked when but not yet known exact time…long drive from las Cruces nm…good night. Met another person who lives in peoples valley that was a part of the fire who works at hospital. So may have new photos soon
Thank you again, Joy, for keeping us updated here about Sonny.
Tell him again to ‘hang in there’ and be sure to let him know we all expect him to be right here ‘commenting away’ again when we reach Chapter 19.
Also… don’t forget the ‘first rule of caretaking’.
You have to take care of YOURSELF, as well, or you end up being no good to anyone. Trust me on this one.
After Brent Yadon left from his visit with sonny I began to read your I’m message wwtktr but nurse came in and I never did get chance to keep reading it but smiled huge on Irish comment
Plus a lady in ICU came up to me and asked are you the lady that saw the 19 and I said yes…she said she knows a person who wants to talk to me and asked for my contact so maybe have more there too
Hope its a chatty Paul morin or musser or frisby…etc
Smiling with exhaustion
JThat Bob sure knows his onions when it comes to figuring out how gm could have been sent to their death. Joy andd I were at the very spot they went downth. You see I saw that the fire could change instantly at any moment. Cowboy McKinaey haed wARNED them not to get caught down there in that brush. Joy was going to skirrt the canyon. aa worse idea. You see I could care less whether the Helms survived or houses burned in Yarnell. I knew that fire could change instanty at any moment. Fortunately I had no orders from headquarters so it was survival. Now with five stints in my heart I am having to take a respite at the va in Prescott. The people here are a god send to us vets. Never seen such caring for the lives of vets. I am sshedding a few tearas for the loss of those men. My Dad died here as a machine gunner ww1. He lied about his age to get in but to me he was a hero and survivorf until cancer got hIM, THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR GETTING AT THE TRJUTH.w
An amazing story appeared down below that doesn’t deserve to get ‘lost in the weeds’, so here is that post from Woodsman on November 18, 2015 at 11:38 am brought up here ‘to the top’…
On November 18, 2015 at 11:38 am, Woodsman said…
——————————————————————————————–
WTKTT:
Oh, I’m not going to stop using any tactic I can come up with to leave a hopefully lasting impression on those I teach any wildfire class to. This may not have been the best place to share those exact words.
I can tell you I relate to people like Gary in a lot of ways. Things he has said resonate with me. I’m 16 years on the line as state wff, volunteering for every assignment I could get in-state, out-state during this time. I’d say equivalent experience of a good 2-4 yr shot honestly. I have worked as a volunteer ff and EMT for 5 years but gave that up when I transferred duty stations. I gave it up for 2 reasons. Number 1 is I was burnt out (which is what I always thought was the only reason.) Later I had a second reason – I wanted to stick to my roots and just concentrate on wildland as that’s my full-time paid position. I have experience on both sides. I am a reformed hybrid, I guess.
A sidenote: I have now started incorporating a discussion about the potential problems of different cultures and roles of wildland/municipal in my training sessions. These are not NWCG ‘S’ courses here (although I help teach them as well.) these are general wildland classes to hybrids recruit academies or in-service training at stations. They respond to wildfires regularly and we work with them by default.
You know what? I got the t-shirt in experiencing LODD on a large wildfire in California. Second year as an FFT2 on a type-2 IA crew we lost 3 of 5 on a FS engine one night in a rollover, down the mountain off a shitty road with no traffic control and poor visibility. When I say I got the t-shirt, I mean it, I still have the memoriam t-shirt folks brought in to sell us afterwards. I don’t wear it much because I don’t want to forget them and what happened. Night shift, radio traffic came in from incident within the incident and we sent our medic to triage and treat them. I was new and it hit us all hard. We got back to camp, tried to sleep and went back up the same damn road the next night and kept on burning out. Got the t-shirt.
Another thing Gary said that stuck with me is this. In my earlier days I was a thrill-seeking, 10 foot tall and bulletproof SOB. (Now I’m just an SOB). The risks I took were ridiculous at times – nothing too crazy but unnecessary risks nonetheless. I would take on anything. I showed the fire who was boss…so I thought. Several years later while trapped on an open-cab dozer with fire all around “digging taters,” I realized something that I have never forgotten: “I AIN’T Jack-shit.” To that fire I’m nothing more than something to burn.
I own every mistake I ever made on all those fires but now I have the chance to share my stupidity with others. It’s their choice whether to listen or not. It’s my choice on how to convey the message.
One more thing, I’m no sage. Just a half-way grown up wildland firefighter with a decent amount of experience. I have a new guy in my work area. I am helping to raise him. I told him that I am going to make him into the firefighter I never was. I also told him that right now he is relatively safe with 1-5 years experience. It’s that 5-10 year time period that will kill you because you start to think that you got this fire thing figured out when you don’t.
I feel a huge weight of responsibility to keep the people I have charge of or teach safe. It’s a reflection of my competence as wff to do that. Maybe that is why all this bothers me so much. Would I have made these mistakes as a fireline leader? How close have I come to getting someone hurt or killed? I have to keep on learning all I can until my last day. That’s important to me. That’s why I’m here.
Thanks for listening,
Woodsman
——————————————————————————————–
Woodsman… Thank you for that.
Please continue to contribute to this ongoing discussion.
Any ongoing discussion of what happened that entire weekend in Yarnell still deserves ( and has always deserved ) the perspective and the input of people with your (obvious) credentials.
I’d also like to here your ‘perspective’ on the Twisp Fire fatalities.
I know that no official ‘reports’ have been released… but it all sounds so similar to your own story that your input would be invaluable if/when these reports DO come out.
Same for the ‘Valley Fire’ where those four Helitack were running around clueless about what the fire was doing and even assigning just ONE person to protect empty houses.
Do you think that’s just more “10 foot tall and a SOB” stuff that was going on there?
Could be. Early in my career I wouldn’t have near the presence of mind I do now to say NO or HELL NO to someone telling me to go somewhere I shouldn’t.
A hand crew is not a structure protection resource. I can’t imagine someone thinking they can make a stand on a structure with a hand tool, on foot, under those conditions. I’ll venture to say even when I was a total dumbass new guy, I would be asking for some clarification there. I just took a lot more risk partly for the excitement of it and partly because I didn’t know any better. If other more senior firefighters were doing something, I probably would be less likely to speak up when I was new also. Just from my experience.
Reading about those incidents is jaw dropping to me. I did have plenty of old timers that jerked a knot in my ass early on though, which I am extremely grateful for. ‘Thanks Big Dog!!! I DOING IT HOW YOU TAUGHT ME!!! RIP, Sir.’ Ol’ Big Dog, a Vietnam vet, most definitely was not afraid of standing up in front of upper management and telling them where to shove it. A good mentor is absolutely priceless!
One more thing. I have built my credentials by the book. Actual assignments (a whole hell of a lot of them) and signing off on task books, not fudging it. Something that takes a long, long time. Real evaluations from supervisors in the record. I’ve known those that are what we call ‘pencil whipped’ through the system…like FFT2 to TFLD on the 3 year plan. These are the people you have to watch out for in leadership positions. Those lacking experience usually don’t know any better and follow they will go.
Woodsman
This might be the most hopeful thing I’ve read all year. Seriously. Thanks for weighing in, Woodsman. I appreciate your posts.
One other thing I forgot to add in all the Questions.
The entire crew was ordered as C-5 even though the list had all 20 with Red Card Qualifications attached.
NONE WERE ORDERED AS OVERHEAD—–O-#
That is how J-Orders work— If any had been ordered as Overhead or the Positions listed then they would not have a C-# but a O-# in the overhead list instead
So again the Listing of Qualifications was just that a listing.
They were ordered as a crew and came as such.
Then Marsh was assigned at the Fire as the Division Sup. and Jessy moved into his position to run the crew which was basically all internal Crew organization. Not Controlled by the Fire Overhead.
Maybe that will clear up the confusion of the order process. Any Questions????
I only saw the Resource Order with assignments to the fire, not all their red-card qualifications. Did I miss something?
An order for overhead would be on the O-number sections. The boss’ on the crews are considered ‘overhead’ in relation to their leadership position on the crew. (all of this is my understanding/opinion.) Strike Team Leaders, Task Force, Division, etc, are Overhead ‘proper.’
Why are ” overhead proper” listed (embedded) with a crew resource order? I have never seen that and that doesn’t mean it never happens.
Hybrid Resource Order?
The Crew is Ordered as a 20 person unit.
The overhead are part of that internal organization.
Not ordered as overhead for the crew separately
While I retired almost 22 years ago the dispatch section and forms are still the same.
I retired as a Asst. Forest FMO/Supervisory Dispatcher
I have an extensive back ground in Dispatch FS and Carded as a Supervisory Fire Dispatcher and Demobe Dispatcher. for large Fires. For a reference of my input here.
We were talking about the Manifest. which lists the Qualifications.
The Fire order C-5 Lists the crew strange that is a fact.
For some reason after Steed they are alphabetical and Marsh is slipped in in the Order in alphabetical order.
My guess on the order they had Steed listed as the Supervisor of the crew because Marsh had been off do to a injury. They had not changed the Information back and slipped Marsh in at the State level..
Why they were listing the Supervisor as STLC than a crew boss is strange. Why Marsh and Steed were not listed at the top of the Crew list in the order is Strange.
It could be a difference between Fed. and State Nomenclature ICS vs Crew Boss.
Although it is suppose to be the same.
Brought up Manifest from below.
It actually states it is from Prescott City Fire Department.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-315934
So I believe Marsh sent his personal crew manifest which had the Quals. on it.
The State Dispatch filled out the J-order for GM
Posted it then sent it to Fire camp with the Manifest.
When the State ordered the other 2 HS Crews they had to go thru the Regional Dispatch and The R3
Dispatch filled the order and sent back the crew and the Names thus the difference between the orders. Crew Boss and STLC It is the same thing.
Also Superintendent and Captain. Fun Right.
Bob,
Fed and state dispatch offices are different, makes sense. Ours go through a common FS coordination center.
CRWB and STCR (strike team leader, crew) are not the same, in my non-dispatch qualified opinion. I’m aware of Superintendent as Crew Boss and Captain as Assistant Crew Boss or just Crew Boss on an IHC. STCR is responsible for multiple resources of the same makeup, in this case crews. STEN (strike team leader, engines) etc.
I appreciate the dialog, Bob, especially with your experience.
Woodsman
Gary is right, the states are ‘mini-me’s’ of the USFS and use the same nomenclature for positions. There is not a Crew Boss in the entire nation of the US of A, assigned and working with a crew called a Strike Team Leader, Crew. (STCR) Find me one and I’ll eat the paper it’s written on.
Bob,
“Crew Boss and STLC It is the same thing.”
Gary is right, the states are ‘mini-me’s’ of the USFS and use the same nomenclature for positions. There is not a Crew Boss in the entire nation of the US of A, assigned and working with a crew called a Strike Team Leader, Crew. (STCR) Find me one and I’ll eat the paper it’s written on.
It’s probably also worth noting that for BOTH of the OTHER resource orders for BOTH of the OTHER Type 1 IHC ‘Crews’ ordered… not only are the Supt. and Asst. Supt. being ‘ordered up’ as CRWB… there is then no distinction made for ‘Squad Bosses’ on the resource order records for the other 18 members of both crews.
Not so with the Granite Mountain order.
The Granite Mountain resource orders ARE making a ‘position distinction’ on the order itself for 2 of the 3 GM ‘Squad Bosses’.
THAT is where the GM resource orders use ‘CRWB’… for the ‘ordering up’ of the ‘Squad Bosses’.
As in…
C-5.2 | CREW BOSS (CRWB | Whitted, Clayton
C-5.3 } CREW BOSS (CRWB) (T-A) | Carter, Travis |
And here is what the GM Manifest said about ‘Squad Leaders’ and their QUALS…
Whitted, Clayton | Squad Leader | CRWB, ICT4, FIRB, FALC, EMT
Carter, Travis | Squad Leader | CRWB, DOZB, ICT5, FALC, EMT
Caldwell, Robert | Squad Leader | FFT1, ICT5
Notice that ‘Robert Caldwell’ was also listed in the GM Manifest as a ‘Squad Leader’ for June 30, 2013, but his resource order did NOT order him up as a ‘CRWB’ as was the case for the resource orders for Whitted and Carter.
Robert Caldwell’s resource order only requested him a ‘FFT2′ and not ‘CRWB’.
Also notice that Robert Caldwell is being listed as a ‘Squad Leader’ in the GM manifest… but he shows no ‘CRWB’ red-card qualification at all.
Curiouser and Curiouser.
Squad Boss is FFT1, firefighter type 1. It’s the first leadership position you achieve on a crew after S-131 Advanced Firefighter training and completion of your taskbook.
Copy that.
I’m not suggesting that having CRWB is a requirement for being a ‘Squad Boss’ ( because I don’t believe it is )… but what is ‘curiouser and curiouser’ is the way these Granite Mountain resource orders differed dramatically from the standards being used for BOTH of their counterpart Type 1 IHC crews assigned to the same fire ( Blue Ridge and Arroyo ).
There is nothing in the Blue Ridge or Arroyo resource orders that even distinguishes FFT1 or FFT2 orders as being for ‘Squad Bosses’…
…but there is the GM order not only showing screwy request levels for Supt. and Asst. Supt. but also trying to use CRWB to order up the FFT1/FFt2 ‘Squad bosses’.
I’m with WTKTT. I’ve seen a lot of Resource Orders, and this is really weird. FFT1 and Squad Boss are not exactly the same thing. Lots of people get ordered as FFT1 who don’t have resources under them.
It’s important that the Resource Orders are clear, because they specify both pay and responsibility (duties, chain of command, and span of control). Marsh should have been CRWB, and then upgraded to DIVS, and that should have reached dispatch. It’s not the most egregious error with resource ordering (I consider showing up and working without a resource order a HUGE no-no, for example), but it’s a big one, and I’m curious about it, too.
Sitta… check out this new parent comment up above. I think it sheds a little more light on how this ‘Granite Mountain’ resource ordering went down the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-316089
As it turns out… Norval Tyler’s ADOSH interview has some ‘answers’.
Norval Tyler is/was the Arizona Forestry Arizona Dispatch Center Lead… and he was ON-DUTY the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013 when these ‘funky’ resource orders were going down for Granite Mountain.
Norval Tyler states TWICE in his interview that whatever information they were using for ordering up GM that night came from a ‘roster’ that Eric Marsh himself had just emailed them.
Bob,
I’m not trying to question your credentials. In your experience, do you find anything unusual at all with the resource order for GM?
Woodsman
Bob,
I was typing while you replied. My state does not do it that way. Thanks!
Woodsman
Where are you from if you can answer.
I am still guessing on Arizona just looks like what they did.
I was talking about the resource order. Thanks, Bob.
Woodsman
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 18, 2015 at 9:05 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The entire crew was ordered as C-5 even though the list had
>> all 20 with Red Card Qualifications attached.
Just a clarification here. The actual resource orders in the “J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document do NOT have any “Red Card Qualifications attached”.
Those ‘Red Card Qualifications” only show up on that copy of the original GM Manifest that was included at the bottom of the same PDF file.
The only reference to any ‘Qualifications’ in the actual resource order records is in the ‘Resource Requested’ field where Dispatch is showing WHO or WHAT the order is FOR.
Examples…
BR Superintendent. Brian Frisby fulfilled a resource order for a ‘CRWB’
BR Assistant Supt. Trueheart Brown also fulfilled a resource order for a ‘CRWB’
GM Superintendent Eric Marsh fulfilled a resource order for a ‘STCR’
GM Assistant Supt. Jesse Steed fulfilled a resource order for a ‘TFLD’
GM Squad Boss Clayton Whitted fulfilled a resource order for a ‘CRWB’
GM Squad Boss (Trainee) Travis Carter fulfilled a resource order for a ‘CRWB-TA’
GM crewmember Brendan McDonough fulfilled a resource order for a ‘FFT2’
GM crewmember Scott Norris fulfilled a resource order for a ‘FFT1’
etc… etc…
The ‘red-card quals’ are implicit in the resource being requested and it is assumed that if someone ‘fulfill’ that order for that resource… they have the ‘red-card quals’ to do it.
But those ‘red-card quals’ don’t appear anywhere in the actual ‘resource records’.
What was also strange about the resource orders is that while CRWB was used to order up the Supt. and Asst. Supt. for BOTH of the other Type 1 Hotshot crews ( Blue Ridge and Arroyo )… the CRWB resource designation request was used in the Granite Mountain resource orders only for the ‘Squad bosses’.
As in…
C-5.2 | Resource requested: CREW BOSS (CRWB | Filled with: Whitted, Clayton
C-5.3 } Resource requested: CREW BOSS (CRWB) (T-A) | Filled with Carter, Travis |
And here is what the GM Manifest said about ‘Squad Leaders’ and their QUALS…
Whitted, Clayton | Squad Leader | CRWB, ICT4, FIRB, FALC, EMT
Carter, Travis | Squad Leader | CRWB, DOZB, ICT5, FALC, EMT
Caldwell, Robert | Squad Leader | FFT1, ICT5
Notice that ‘Robert Caldwell’ was also listed in the GM Manifest as a ‘Squad Leader’ for June 30, 2013, but his resource order did NOT order him up as a ‘CRWB’ as was the case for the resource orders for Whitted and Carter.
Robert Caldwell’s resource order only requested him a ‘FFT2’ and not ‘CRWB’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> NONE WERE ORDERED AS OVERHEAD—–O-#
>> That is how J-Orders work— If any had been ordered as Overhead or
>> the Positions listed then they would not have a C-# but a O-# in the
>> overhead list instead
Well.. therein lies the confusion.
To be ordering up Jesse Steed as TFLD inside of a ‘C’ order is very confusing, eh?
TFLD is, in fact, an OVERHEAD position, as far as ICS is concerned… correct?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So again the Listing of Qualifications was just that a listing.
>> They were ordered as a crew and came as such.
It’s also worth pointing out that in the Blue Ridge resource orders… one of the 20 ‘Crew’ orders ( for one of the FFT2 crewmembers ) remained UNFULFILLED and says ‘Cancelled’ on it. I’m talking about this resource order as part of the ‘C3’ Blue Ridge order…
C-3.19 | 06/29/13 | Resource Requested: FIRE FIGHTER TYPE 2 (FFT2) | Cancelled UTF
So that would indicate that Blue Ridge only actually showed up in Yarnell with 19 crewmembers instead of the required 20.
WTKTT:
One potential reason (pure speculation on my part) for the unusual resource order may have to do with reimbursement rates to the sponsoring agency. A.D. Casual hires are paid according to position worked on the incident. Refer to this document for positions and associated pay scale:
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/ibp/personnel/id_5109.34-2015-1.pdf
AD-A, AD-B, AD-C – so on and so forth. You can find the difference in pay for a squad boss, crew boss, STCR, TFLD, DIVS etc.
May help explain all the higher positions shown on the resource order? $$ I don’t know but the higher the position, the more responsibility and higher the pay. Maybe you can find other pertinent information in the linked document above.
Woodsman
**
** GRANITE MOUNTAIN NEVER ‘CHECKED IN’ TO THE YARNELL FIRE
Reply to Woodsman post on November 17, 2015 at 3:02 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> You still have to show a signed copy of your red card as
>> part of the check-in process.
There is no evidence that the Granite Mountain Hotshots ever even officially ‘checked in’ to the Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
William Brewer was the one doing the official ‘check-ins’ that morning at the Model Creek School ICP. He told ADOSH that Granite Mountain never ‘checked-in’ with him at all.
William Brewer was the Engine Boss for Arizona Forestry State Engine 151. He had two engine boss trainees and a firefighter 2 with him when he arrived in Yarnell Saturday morning, June 29, 2013, at 0700 hours ( 7:00 AM ).
William Brewer’s ‘regular’ job ( at the time of the Yarnell Hill Fire ) was Assistant Fire Management Officer ( AFMO ) for the Phoenix District.
William Brewer and his AZ State Engine 151 clocked onto the Yarnell Hill fire at 0700 ( 7:00 AM ) on Saturday morning. They were up all night helping and Brewer himself said he was helping Russ Shumate get all the resource ordering done throughout the night for the next day ( Sunday, June 30, 2013 ).
Brewer was the one who was then ‘checking people in’ on Sunday morning up at the Model Creek Elementary School.
He was only doing that until NOON, when he and his entire crew had to get ‘off the clock’ because at that point ( NOON on Sunday ) they had been ‘on the clock’ for 29 hours straight.
They all went to take naps in one of the Model Creek School classrooms and some members of the DOC Lewis Crew took over the ‘check in’ process at NOON on Sunday.
When asked about Granite Mountain… Brewer said they never ‘checked in’ with him and ( as far as he knew ) they were never at the Model Creek School at all ( but that was actually not the case )…
From William Brewer’s ADOSH interview on October 22, 2013…
—————————————————-
113 ( On Sunday morning ) I was actually checking resources in as they
114 came in. Ah, we had identified on everybody’s resource order to check in at
115 the school, ah, there in Peeples Valley. Ah, I had it set up with, ah,
116 individuals of the Lewis crew. Pretty much every resource that came through
117 those gates came and saw me. Got their names, ah, everything checked in.
254 Q5: Yeah. Ah, the, um – as you were talking it seemed like you were indicating
255 that as crews were coming in they were to stage and, ah, and nobody was to,
256 ah, to go until they attended the briefing. Is that right?
257
258 A: Yeah.
259
260 Q5: I’m reading that right, or…
261
262 A: Absolutely. Um, and to my knowledge nobody left ICP, um, without, you
263 know, without going through me. And like I said, I don’t recall anybody
264 leaving without being at that briefing. Um, that was est- like I said, I don’t
265 recall the exact time of the briefing. I want to say it was around 0900 or
835 Q: Do you remember any conversations with Eric Marsh, or…
836
837 A: Ah, I did not check in Granite Mountain at all. Ah, they didn’t come through
838 ICP. Um, as to why or anything I’m not sure. They were not on my check in
839 list though.
—————————————————–
But there IS evidence that the Granite Mountain Crew DID pull into the Model Creek School ICP that Sunday morning… they just never ‘checked in’ with William Brewer, or anyone at all.
It *appears* that Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh might have ‘pulled in there’ as well but then immediately found out that ‘the bosses’ were already down there at the Yarnell Fire Station… and so Steed and Marsh went down there right away ( also without bothering to ‘check in’ with William Brewer or anyone else ).
But the GM Crew STAYED there at the Model Creek School ICP and sat down to eat breakfast, and none of the ‘Squad Bosses’ bothered to ‘check-in’ with William Brewer, either.
This all comes from an eye-witness account from local resident Rick McKenzie. Not only did he recall SEEING the Granite Mountain Crew there at the ICP early Sunday morning, he says he had a direct conversation with them ( including Squad Boss Travis Carter ) and that is also when Rick MacKenzie gave them a stern WARNING about what could happen that day if they weren’t careful.
So even if the Granite Mountain Hotshots had been from Siberia ( and not their own backyard ) they were still TOLD exactly what to EXPECT that day… and they were WARNED that very morning at the ICP to ‘watch out for’ EXACTLY what eventually happened to them.
Local hiker / bow-hunter Rick McKenzie WARNED them that very morning while they were grabbing breakfast at the ICP what could easily happen to them if they weren’t ‘on their guard’ in that terrain… under the conditions present that day.
From the following ONLINE ARTICLE and interview with Rick McKenzie
http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-last-battle-of-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-20130911?page=6
——————————————————————————————-
Down at Incident Command, the rest of the Granite Mountain crew was having
breakfast before setting out.
A Yarnell man named Rick McKenzie approached with some advice.
Rick’s family had been in Yavapai County for 150 years, since his great -grandfather
moved from Nova Scotia to prospect for gold on Yarnell Hill. He bow-hunted in
these mountains, and he knew the terrain well.
He went up to one of the Hotshots, a squad boss named Travis Carter.
“Y’all be careful up on that mountain,” Rick told him. “That brush is so thick that
you can’t even crawl through it. And that manzanita burns hot. If the fire comes
down off the mountain, man, watch out. It’ll blow up.”
“Thanks,” Travis said, nodding. “We appreciate that.”
——————————————————————————————-
DIRECT WARNING given to Granite Mountain THAT very morning…
“That manzanita burns hot. If the fire comes down off the mountain, man, watch out. It’ll blow up.”
Sounds dumb…but all the people led my way…this brewer fella…any relations…related to Janet Brewer… Who was governor at time of fire?
John Dougherty… Hmmm…I need to talk to you some day soon…I’m tired…
I will confirm with Rick but he stated not media stated he ran into all the men at the mountainaire rv gas station..I will open link and read WHO wrote article
Josh article…well…I wonder if he fact checked or took what sonny told him on hike…soon I will confirm this if it was ICS model creek or mountainside this took place…this talk..
I’m gonna head to yarnell and walk dog and than head to Congress and wash up n crash…
I don’t know I want to be optimistic on Sonny…regardless of the facts…
John Dougherty… That one person will be there tomorrow so call him and get that interview flowing.,
Reply to joy a collura post on November 18, 2015 at 1:48 am
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> Josh article…well…I wonder if he fact checked or took what
>> sonny told him on hike…soon I will confirm this if it was ICS
>> model creek or mountainside this took place…this talk..
Thank you, Joy.
Yes. The author of that article quoting Mr. Rick McKenzie was Josh Eells of “Men’s Magazine”.
It would be good to know whether he was being mis-quoted about anything, including WHERE he had that conversation that morning with the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The reason there are still lingering ‘mysteries’ about exactly WHERE the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers were while Eric Marsh was at that morning meeting at the Yarnell Fire Station is because neither set of investigators ( SAIT or ADOSH ) bothered to determine that as part of their own ‘investigations’.
All William Brewer knows ( and testified to ) is that HE was the one officially designated to be checking resources onto the fire that Sunday morning…. but no one from Granite Mountain ever presented themselves to HIM and did that.
The lack of check in seems like a big deal to me. How did overhead (IC et al) even know who’d arrived and was out there?
There’s really never been any doubt that while the transition from Initial Attack to an ‘up level’ team is always the most ‘dangerous’ time for any wildland firefighting effort… THIS transition was ( as Gary Olson likes to say ) “completely off the reservation” and a total fuster cluck.
There’s also no doubt that this totally botched transition lit the fuse on some things that led to what ended up happening later that day.
( And I’m not talking about just what happened to Granite Mountain. I’m talking about the FOUR ‘actual and potential’ entrapments that took place later that day and which Arizona Forestry was cited for by ADOSH )… not to mention the botched ‘evacuations’.
There is even testimony that when resources were arriving later in the morning and afternoon… OPS2 Paul Musser was showing them a list of resources already ‘on the fire’ that he had scribbled on a piece of paper… and there weren’t even any Hotshot crews listed.
Zero. Zip. Nada. Like they weren’t even THERE.
Followup…
With regards to William Brewer telling ADOSH that Granite Mountain never ‘checked in’ to the fire… it should be noted that there was some weirdness with the Type 1 IHC resource orders as far as where they were all supposed to REPORT when they got there.
All 21 of the C-5.X resource orders in the “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document that were used to ‘order up’ Granite Mountain ( As in… the top level C-5 order for the entire ‘Type 1 Crew’ itself… and then the 20 C-5.X orders for all 20 of the crew members and overhead ) had the following in the ‘Report Instructions’ field…
Reporting Instructions REPORT TO THE YARNELL FIRE DEPARTMENT
22558 SOUTH LOOKA WAY YARNELL, AZ
And here are the ‘Reporting Instructions’ for the ‘Blue Ridge’ Crew
Reporting Instructions: ( Blank. No instruction at all ).
And here are the ‘Reporting Instructions’ for the Arroyo Grande Crew…
Reporting Instructions: ICP MIDDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES
VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY AZ.
So Arroyo was told to report to the ICP at the Model Creek Schook, Granite Mountain was told to report to the Yarnell Fire Station… and Blue Ridge wasn’t told WHERE to report at all.
There is still that evidence which suggests the GM Crew really did go to the Model Creek ICP ( and not the Yarnell FD station ) when they got there and still didn’t ‘check in’ with William Brewer… but it’s worth noting that (technically) Granite Mountain wasn’t even TOLD to go where William Brewer was that morning. The were told to go to the YFD station instead.
Good find, WTKTT. This blows my mind. They were at ICP, Marsh was talking to members of the ICT, but they didn’t check in? I wonder how many other resources didn’t check in. I know I’m a lot more detail-oriented than most wffs, but I can’t believe how many lapses in following SOPs we’re seeing in this incident. Did a whole generation miss S-260 (Interagency Business Management)? I’d be watching my paychecks closely, if this how the bureaucratic and recording duties are typically managed.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed went directly to the Yarnell Fire Station. They were there BEFORE IC Roy Hall and OPS2 Paul Musser and OPS1 Todd Abel ever showed up there for that pre-briefing-briefing ( as its being called ) at the YFD station.
As soon as that ‘pre-briefing-briefing’ was over… Eric Marsh decided to head directly out west towards the ridge since he now knew he was going to be DIVS that day.
At that point… he couldn’t have cared less about going BACK up north to the Model Creek School ICP where William Brewer was and doing a ‘check in’. He thought he had more important things to do and he set about doing them.
As for why no one else involved with ‘Granite Mountain’ stepped up to ‘take care of business’ and ‘do the right thing’ like actually ‘check in’ to the fire… that remains a mystery. Neither set of investigators every cared enough to determine exactly WHERE the GM Crew Carriers ( and the Squad bosses who could have easily done the ‘check-in’ as well ) were located while Marsh was hiking all by himself out to the western ridge… where he would then run into Joy Collura and Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan just after 8:00 AM.
Jesse Steed was at the Yarnell Fire Station with Marsh that morning… but Jesse Steed did NOT hike out west with Marsh. Steed WAITED ( somewhere? ) for the GM Crew to finally get out there to the Sesame clearing area, park the Carriers, and start the work day.
So it’s still unknown why Granite Mountain never did something as simple as actually ‘check-in’ to the damn fire that day.
It was the start of series of errors that was only going to magnify that day and result in a horrible tragedy.
Bob Powers says
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 17, 2015 at 4:10 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A Finance officer could explain the AD Contract system better than me.
>> I have a general Knowledge working with Finance and Contracting Equipment
>> and Had 3 Spanish American Crews under me here on the Sawtooth NF for 5 Years.
>> They were all under AD Rates based on Job Position on the Crews.
>> Again GMIHS was A completely different Contract and may have had very little
>> to do with the AD system.
Thank you again for ‘sticking with’ the discussion below. I’m sure you didn’t think your original question about who the 4 ‘Sawyers’ for Granite Mountain were was going to turn into this full revisit of the actual resource orders for GM… but thanks for ‘hanging in there’.
I absolutely DO understand EVERYTHING you are saying below about the AD rates and how a City-owned Type 1 Hotshot crew might have been on ‘individual by individual’ contract rates ( Basically 20 different ‘contracts’ ) versus a flat-rate hourly for the Federal stuff.
However… that still doesn’t fully explain the dramatic differences between the Granite Mountain overhead resource orders and the orders for the other TWO identical ‘Type 1 Crews’.
It’s still a mystery why the GM overhead was ‘ordered up’ as STCR ( STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW – Order for Eric Marsh ) and TFLD ( Task Force Leader – Order for Jesse Steed ) versus the standard CRWB ( Crew Work Boss ) designation for all FOUR of their conterparts on the other identical ‘Type 1 IHC’ crews.
Woodsman has already shot down my (simple) suggestion that maybe whoever was entering the Granite Mountain resource orders just didn’t KNOW that ‘CRWB’ is the standard ACRONYM to use when ordering up the ‘Supt.’ and ‘Asst. Supt’ for a Type 1 Hotshot crew.
So that leaves only one half of the old ‘Double-Eye’ scenario.
It was ‘Intentional’ rather than ‘Incompetence’.
Followup…
On November 17, 2015 at 4:01 pm, Bob Powers said…
>> TFLD — Task Force Leader
>> That is above a STLD
Is it above ‘STCR’?
Once again… here are the exact orders placed for Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh…
C-5.01 | TASK FORCE LEADER ( TFLD ) | STEED, JESSE ( AZ-ADC )
C-5.18 | STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ( STCR ) | MARSH, ERIC ( AZ-ADC )
If ‘TFLD’ is ABOVE even ‘STCR’… then that means even on Saturday night ( and according to the resource orders ) Eric Marsh was being ‘ordered up’ at a level BELOW Jesse Steed.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A Task Force consists of severial recourses like Engines, Crews and
>> Tractors on the same piece of line.
Exactly.
Look… we all know that there is no (public) evidence that Jesse Steed showed up in the Yarnell Hill Fire department parking lot on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013 and was heard walking around saying anything like…
“Okay. Your TFLD is here now. I brought some guys with saws with me but where are my Engines and ‘other crews’ and shit?”
Jesse Steed knew he was showing up at the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ of a Type 1 Hotshot Crew, and that he answered to only one person… the other guy who was the ‘Superintendent’ of the same Hotshot Crew ( Eric Marsh ).
So whatever went on with these actual ‘resource orders’ for Granite Mountain and for Jesse Steed and for Eric Marsh… there’s also no evidence they were even AWARE of it.
But it happened ( the strange resource orders ).
And they (apparently) happened for a REASON.
We just don’t know WHAT that REASON was ( yet ).
These are GOOD questions, WTKTT.
Sitta… check out this new parent comment up above. I think it sheds a little more light on how this ‘Granite Mountain’ resource ordering went down the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-316089
As it turns out… Norval Tyler’s ADOSH interview has some ‘answers’.
Norval Tyler is/was the Arizona Forestry Arizona Dispatch Center Lead… and he was ON-DUTY the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013 when these ‘funky’ resource orders were going down for Granite Mountain.
Norval Tyler states TWICE in his interview that whatever information they were using for ordering up GM that night came from a ‘roster’ that Eric Marsh himself had just emailed them.
A possible explanation is It was a direct State order to Prescott City.
all the other HS Crews came thru the Region Dispatch as GM should have but They would not send them so State went direct, Who ever filled out the Order did not have the Crew manifest from the Region and filled it out from what ever they had or what ever Marsh gave them.
Just a guess here .
That’s a good guess, and along the lines of what I was saying below… that the SIMPLE explanation for what actually appeared was that this really was an unusual set of circumstances getting ‘Granite Mountain’ fudged onto that fire and whoever entered the order was clueless about how to actually DO it.
Example…
>> On November 17, 2015 at 4:01 pm, Bob Powers said…
>>
>> TFLD — Task Force Leader
>> That is above a STLD
Is it above ‘STCR’?
Once again… here are the exact orders placed for Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh…
C-5.01 | TASK FORCE LEADER ( TFLD ) | STEED, JESSE ( AZ-ADC )
C-5.18 | STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ( STCR ) | MARSH, ERIC ( AZ-ADC )
If ‘TFLD’ is ABOVE even ‘STCR’… then that means even on Saturday night ( and according to the resource orders ) Eric Marsh was being ‘ordered up’ at a level BELOW Jesse Steed.
So maybe someone at the ‘State’ ( not Region ) level just ‘guessed’ at what to enter since they were now ‘fudging’ this order for this Type 1 IHC… and there was no one there to lean over their shoulder and say…
“Ummm… excuse me… but do you know you just hired the Assistant Superintendent of that Hotshot Crew to be the BOSS of the actual Superintendent?”
Another thought.
In most Dispatch offices the order Comes to the Forest thru the Region.
Before the Crew leaves Dispatch or Forest Office a manifest is checked
If all is the same no one missing it is the Normal Manifest. If changes are made say some one is absent which very seldom happens. Then the Normal Manifest is sent to the Regional Office Dispatch and to the NIFC Dispatch.
Prescott City Had no Dispatch Center So Marsh May have sent his Crew Manifest. That would have been different than the Regional one that was normally used. That could explain the list of Qualifications that ended up on the Fire Manifest. Just another possibility.
That would also make sense.
The ‘system’ can’t expect some dispatcher to just know the names of the crew and who is what. Something either HAS to be ‘on file’ ( as in… already in the computer ) and someone says ‘use what you have on file’ or someone has to SEND the right manifest and info TO them ( electronically ) for that resource order.
Bu that still doesn’t explain how we got from what ADOSH was told was the original GM Crew Manifest for Sunday, June 30, 2013 to what actually appeared in the C-5 resource order(s).
One more time…
The actual GM mainfest from June 30, 2013 was sent as an attachment to an email sent from from Todd Rhines to Dan Bauman just 6 days after the tragedy…
————————————————————————
From: Rhines,Todd
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 5:41 PM
To: Bauman,Dan
Subject: GMIHC Manifest 2013.doc
Granite Mountain Hot Shots
PRESCOTT FIRE DEPARTMENT, 928-777-1707
1700 IRON SPRINGS ROAD, PRESCOTT AZ 86305
# NAME TITLE QUALIFICATION FLIGHT WEIGHT
1 Marsh, Eric Superintendent DIVS,ICT4,FIRB,FALB,EMT 230 First In/Last Out
2 Steed, Jesse Captain TFLD,ICT4,FIRB,HECM,FALC 250 Last In/First Out
3 Whitted, Clayton Squad Leader CRWB,ICT4,FIRB,FALC,EMT 245
4 Caldwell, Robert Squad Leader FFT1,ICT5 210
5 Carter, Travis Squad Leader CRWB,DOZB,ICT5,FALC,EMT 250
6 Mackenzie, Chris Lead Crew FFT2,FALA 260
7 Turbyfill, Travis Lead Crew FFT1,ICT5,FALA 265
8 Ashcraft, Andrew Lead Crew FFT1,ICT5,FALB 250
9 McDonough,Brendan Crewmember FFT2,FALA 200
10 Thurston, Joe Crewmember FFT2,FALA 245
11 Parker, Wade Crewmember FFT2,EMT 230
12 Rose, Anthony Crewmember FFT1,FALB 200
13 Zuppiger, Garret Crewmember FFT2 230
14 Norris, Scott Crewmember FFT1,FALB 230
15 DeFord, Dustin Crewmember FFT1,ICT5 235
16 Warneke, William Crewmember FFT2,EMT 215
17 Wyojeck, Kevin Crewmember FFT2,EMT 180
18 Percin, John Crewmember FFT2 240
29 McKee, Grant Crewmember FFT2 190
20 Misner, Shaun Crewmember FFT2 205
Vehicle Information:
2009 Dodge 4500 Plate#G630EK ID#1311
2006 Ford F750 Plate#G117DX ID#1167
2006 Ford F750 Plate#G118DX ID#1168
2004 Ford F250 Plate#G327DV ID#1074
Cell #’s Eric Marsh: ( xxx-xxx-xxxx ) Jesse Steed: ( xxx-xxx-xxxx )
——————————————————————————-
And then ( somehow ) the information in that (supposed) original manifest turned into this on the actual resource order(s)…
———————————————————
C-5.01 | TASK FORCE LEADER ( TFLD ) | STEED, JESSE ( AZ-ADC )
C-5.18 | STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ( STCR ) | MARSH, ERIC ( AZ-ADC )
———————————————————
So if TFLD really is a step ABOVE STCR… then someone hired Jesse Steed at a HIGHER rating than they were hiring Eric Marsh.
It’s still just WEIRD that these OVERHEAD designations are being included in a ‘C-X’ ( CREW ) resource order instead of just using ‘CRWB’ as was the case with ALL FOUR of the OVERHEAD orders for the other two Type 1 IHC Crews.
It looks like they still had Jessie as the Head of the crew and had not changed that when Marsh returned. thus the confusion. as well as going around R3 Dispatch.
I could Dispatch my STIHS Crew to District Fires and Coop with Local BLM.
And then Notify the Region. We however could not dispatch the crew between R4 Forests that had to go thru the Region 4 Dispatch office. Requested by each Forest.
I would say that GMIHS were a Local resource as well thus the State Dispatched them.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 18, 2015 at 2:15 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> It looks like they still had Jessie as the Head of the
>> crew and had not changed that when Marsh
>> returned. thus the confusion.
I actually hope you are WRONG about that… because if you are RIGHT… then that’s just one more piece of evidence that this whole ‘Granite Mountain’ thing was a ‘loose ship’.
There had been PLENTY of time between when Marsh returned to duty as Superintendent and when the Yarnell Fire happened for them to “get their shit together” and make sure the paperwork reflected (current) reality.
But wouldn’t it be fascinating to discover that while Marsh was being allowed to return to fires… that he actually had NOT ‘officially’ been restored as the ‘Superintendent’ ( even though he was acting like it ).
Jesse Steed was OFFICIALLY made the ‘Superintendent’ ( including all associated paperwork ) because he HAD to be in order for Darrell Willis to get that ‘certification’ document signed that Marsh had been refusing to sign prior to his ‘biking accident’.
So maybe the situation actually hadn’t been officially ‘reversed’ ( with all the same position-change paperwork ) and Marsh was actually sort of ‘freelancing’ following this ‘return to duty’ after the bike accident.
I am not saying that I am saying the State had a Manifest that was outdated. They used that instead of the updated one and just thru marsh in according to Alphabetical order.
MARSH WAS IN CHARGE OF THE CREW
The Manifest occurred because the State went around the normal Dispatch procedure of going thru Region for crews out side their own. There are no underlying management things going on here..
A new or added Dispatcher can do these things without knowing it and if the head Dispatcher dose not catch it then you are going back to clean up the mess.
GM was dispatched thru the R3 dispatch as a type 1 Crew That manifest is updated as the crew is put back up as available. If a crewman or Supervisor is replaced that is noted immediately I am assuming they were working direct and not thru the State.
A Manifest may have been sent earlier in the Year to the State and that is what they had Adding Marsh to the List to finish out the 20 Who ever did it put it in Alphabetical order.
A simple mistake that was changed on the J-Order.
Bob,
you said: “I am not saying that I am saying the State had a Manifest that was outdated. They used that instead of the updated one and just thru marsh in according to Alphabetical order.
MARSH WAS IN CHARGE OF THE CREW”
Affirmative statement. How do you know this to be true, that they had an outdated manifest? Show me the updated one compared to the one they used. How do you know Marsh was in charge of the crew?
you said: “The Manifest occurred because the State went around the normal Dispatch procedure of going thru Region for crews out side their own. There are no underlying management things going on here..”
Another affirmative statement. How do you know they went around the normal dispatch procedure? Fill me in on what I’m missing. I really want to know how you are sure that there are no underlying management things going on. If true, that would be great. You have me very curious.
“A new or added Dispatcher can do these things without knowing it and if the head Dispatcher dose not catch it then you are going back to clean up the mess” Is this a guess as to how a dispatcher, new or experienced may have entered something incorrectly? Do you think mistakes were made when entering the info for the crew at the dispatch center? How do you know?
“GM was dispatched thru the R3 dispatch as a type 1 Crew That manifest is updated as the crew is put back up as available. If a crewman or Supervisor is replaced that is noted immediately I am assuming they were working direct and not thru the State.” I’m confused. Were they dispatched through Fed or state? I know the process and difference, I just want to know how it was handled in this instance.
“A Manifest may have been sent earlier in the Year to the State and that is what they had Adding Marsh to the List to finish out the 20 Who ever did it put it in Alphabetical order.A simple mistake that was changed on the J-Order.” Is there a copy somewhere showing each so I can compare them? I’d especially like to see the one in alphabetical order.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman…
Check out this new parent comment up above. I think it sheds a little more light on how this ‘Granite Mountain’ resource ordering went down the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-316089
As it turns out… Norval Tyler’s ADOSH interview has some ‘answers’.
Norval Tyler is/was the Arizona Forestry Arizona Dispatch Center Lead… and he was ON-DUTY the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013 when these ‘funky’ resource orders were going down for Granite Mountain.
Norval Tyler states TWICE in his interview that whatever information they were using for ordering up GM that night came from a ‘roster’ that Eric Marsh himself had just emailed them.
And by the way… the C-5.1 through C-5.20 resource orders for the GM crew in the ‘J – Resource Orders.pdf’ document are NOT in ‘Alphabetical Order’. A few at the end are and that might make someone assume the rest are… but that is not the case.
Eric Marsh’s resource order as an STCR ( STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ) just appears ‘out of nowwhere’ in the 18th slot of the crew ordering ( Order number C-5.18 ).
Reply to Woodsman post on November 17, 2015 at 6:48 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> We still have a group of real wildland firefighters across the country.
>> I worked with some great folks this summer. Been in this business long
>> enough to tell the difference. I know who to watch out for. Personally I
>> think all this new crap is going to blow up in their face when the realize
>> they don’t know what the hell their doing when it comes to a real wildfire.
>>
>> It’s not all doom and gloom though because I’m a roughneck rabble rouser.
>> To hell with em. I do my job and keep the people I’m responsible for safe.
>>
>> That’s my job. I’m a wildland firefighter!
>>
>> I taught a general wildland class to a county fire dept recruits yesterday
>> and at the conclusion I told them all this: You have been taught by me
>> about wildfire safety, strategy, and tactics. The 10 and 18 are not suggestions.
>> If I find out any of you have been killed in LOD because you violated any of them,
>> not only will your wife, girlfriend, mistress or any combination thereof be ticked
>> off at you, I will piss on your grave!
Not sure what your career plans are… but have you given any thought to replacing Tom Tidwell as the Chief of US Forestry?
If you haven’t… I think you should.
Thanks for the kind words.
I tried to give them something they would remember.
I’ll never be promoted. I say what I think and stand up for what I believe in, just like my father. RIP, Commander. But it’s all good as I love my job.
Woodsman
You sound like someone I can respect welcome here.
You asked some good questions.
It’s been pointed out to me (correctly) that my comments concerning what I said to my students may not have been appropriate to share in this forum. I am sorry if I offended or hurt anyone by sharing that. My heart is broken for GMIHC, their families and all who loved them.
Respectfully,
Woodsman
Well… I certainly hope you don’t stop ‘sharing that’ with any other ‘teach the structural guys how to be hybrids’ classes you continue to do.
They need to hear EXACTLY what you said.
If FFs ( like Brendan McDonough and maybe thousands of others ) think that LCES and the 10&18 and the ‘watchouts’ is all ‘Hillbilly Stuff’ and that they are ( quoting McDonough ) ‘smarter now’….
Then it’s time to hit mules with 2x4s just to get their attention.
“It’s better to be a live Hillbilly than a dead smart guy”.
( I still think that should be a T-Shirt and available on the NWCS products page ).
Not a problem I have said similar over the years. You some times need to get their attention. I am sure they respected that.
Oh…and one more thing as long as I am in a mood today (what new?) to rant.
I really don’t have any idea who the Arroyo Grande Hotshots are, who they work for or what their history is.
But I do know one thing for sure. The Yarnell Hill Fire would have been the Arroyo Grande Hotshot crew boss’ very last fire as a hotshot…ever, IF he or she would have worked for Bill Buck back in the day.
Keep an entire hotshot crew (and I have hit on this before, but every time I think of it I am even more amazed than the previous time I thought of it) in Phoenix…or anywhere laying around lickin’ their nuts while a fire is going to hell in a hand basket just up the road because their CHASE truck broke down? Are you fucking kidding me?
I could understand it if both of their crew carriers would have been hit by a train and they were getting checked out at the hospital…but because their CHASE truck broke down…are you fucking kidding me! I mean seriously…are you FUCKING KIDDING ME?
Well shit…I don’t know? Maybe I got the story wrong? I just checked and those boys work for the USFS on the LP. Maybe both of their crew carriers did get hit by a train?
The story I heard doesn’t make any sense. Bob…what do you know about the Arroyo Grande IHC?
Arroyo Grande IHC
Los Padres NF
460 HI Mtn Rd
Arroyo Grande, CA 93420
A Finance officer could explain the AD Contract system better than me I have a general Knowledge working with Finance and Contracting Equipment and Had 3 Spanish American Crews under me here on the Sawtooth NF for 5 Years. They were all under AD Rates based on Job Position on the Crews.
Again GMIHS was A completely different Contract and may have had very little to do with the AD system.
The pay is irrelevant to the question of why did they split the crew before they were assigned to the fire. Type 1 hand crew type 2 hand crew, it doesn’t matter, neither one has Strike Team Leaders or any other overhead positions as part of the crew unless commandeered from and ‘field promoted’ from that crew.
It’s common to realign resources after they are assigned to the fire but it looks like they planned ahead of time to do just that. Am I right about that? Or are you suggesting that the reason they showed that on paper may have been financially lucrative to the sponsoring agency? Ie: City of Prescott. There are minimum standards for each resource in order to be classified as that resource. So all of this is very confusing.
Thanks
What are you saying about splitting the Crew?
Pay under AD is relevant if they did in fact get paid more for different Jobs. They would under AD but I do not know under their City Contract.
The only reason I can see that the Red Card Ratings were on their Manifest and on the order was for assignments at the fire as AD Qualifications.
They were assigned as a Type 1 crew.
The FS Certification for Type 1 Requires certain training and Qualifications for Superintendent and Assistant as well as the 2 Crew or Squad Leaders. The number of Crewman 2 and the number of Crewman 1 Like new FF can only be so many on a Crew. Our requirement for first year was 2. Crewman 1 were at least 1 or 2 seasons, crewman 2 were 3 plus Seasons. Or in GS terms 2,3, 4– 4 being a lead crewman– GS5 were Squad bosses GS 6 Asst. and GS 7 Supt. It was that way when I retired since then They have Gone to Captain at GS9 and GS7 Asst. What’s that ??? They basically went to Fire Station Designations.
Woops Missed something. The Ratings listed were Red Card Qualifications according to the Training records for the Crew.
Marsh was recently certified as a DIVS.
Bob,
What I’m trying to say is that a crew is a resource of 20. Minimum standards of qualifications apply by the book whether it’s a Type 1 (IHC), Type 2 or Type 2 IA. You have crew bosses, squad bosses, firefighters, fallers, etc. On shot crews they use different titles for these positions: supe, captain (crewboss CRWB and crewboss trainee CRWB(t) on the type 2’s. You have fallers (sawyers) on both. I have less understanding of the IHC’s because I’ve never served on one but they each have required elements to make the crew available for assignment.
Now, when the order is made for a crew of either type you get a handcrew with the required elements. Personnel on a given crew can, and almost always does, have additional qualifications in other positions on the fire. Splitting the crew was not a good way for me to say it. I mean personnel taken from the already assigned to the incident hand crew and put into another position on the fire. This changes the number of personnel now on the hand crew. It’s common for a supe or captain of an IHC to be grabbed for a TFLD or DIVS if qualified.
What I’ve never seen or heard of, in my experience, is personnel taken from a hand crew ahead of time before being assigned to the fire like the resource orders look like with GM. That’s what I mean about pay being irrelevant here. I know if someone is field promoted to a DIVS from a CRWB, than their pay rate would reflect this if A.D. Not sure how the USFS, seasonal, 13/13, GS pay works in this situation. I only know A.D. pay scale.
I just don’t know why a crew was ordered that has Marsh (STCR?) and Steed (TFLD?) on the manifest attached to the crew, how can they be STCR (this is strike team crew) and TFLD? You’re on the crew when a crew gets ordered. It doesn’t matter what it says on the qualifications card (red card) at this point. A hand crew with minimum required hand crew elements has been ordered. I don’t care if the entire entourage on the hand crew is type 1 IC qualified, they’re on a hand crew when assigned to the fire initially. They’re not going to get paid like an IC because it says they are qualified as one on they’re card.
Hopefully that explains better what I’m trying to say. How they get paid certainly may change, after they are FIELD promoted, after they are assigned to an incident, after they have been ordered – in this case,as a type 1 IHC.
Woodsman
Just thought I would add something here…
I searched and searched ( some time ago ) the public evidence record and all the transcripts and I can honestly say that there is no ‘public’ evidence that Eric Marsh ever KNEW he was going to be asked to be DIVSA on Sunday, June 30, 2013… until he was standing in the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Department with OPS1 Todd Abel and the ‘idea’ was first floated.
It wasn’t until they were all there that morning that they realized even some of the OPS and DIVS people that had been ordered the night before ( Robert Arthur, for example, Order number O-16.11 ) weren’t just ‘late’… they weren’t even going to show up that day.
Likewise… there is no (public) evidence that Jesse Steed had any idea he was going to be ‘bumped up’ to GMIHCS that day, either, until Eric came walking out of the Yarnell Fire Station meeting and told him “I’m going to DIVS… you’ve got the crew”.
So I guess what I’m saying is that whatever the heck went on with the resource orders for Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed the night before… there is no ‘public’ evidence that they, themselves, had any prior knowledge of the ‘musical chairs’ that was going to happen on-site the next morning.
As best as anyone explained it in their ADOSH interviews… only OPS1 Todd Abel shed any real light on this.
Only OPS1 Todd Abel’s interview seems to nail down the ‘moment’ when it was even suggested that Eric Marsh become ‘DIVSA’.
According to OPS1 Todd Abel… it was when he and Eric were standing there in the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station and ‘looking out at the fire’ and ‘cooking up’ their OWN PLAN about what should happen.
Abel and Marsh agreed to exactly what Darrell Willis testified he told Eric Marsh on that 6:00 AM phone call with him. That ‘We need to get an anchor on this thing’.
So all of a sudden OPS1 Todd Abel is telling ADOSH that while he was talking to Marsh it was decided “Someone needs to get an anchor on this thing’ ( Is there an echo in the room? ).
That probably WAS the best move to make… but it’s still odd that Darrell Willis’ own exact words came all the way from his testimony about what he told Eric to what OPS1 Abel then told ADOSH the ‘decision’ was there in that parking lot.
OPS1 Todd Abel told ADOSH that HE was the one who thought it would be best to have Marsh be a DIVSA way out there on that WEST side of the fire and up on that ridge… because Abel testified he wasn’t sure at that point how many other resources were going to be ‘sent’ up that way during the course of the day and HE ( Abel ) wanted a DIVS out there ‘just in case’.
So that’s when Eric Marsh and Todd Abel walked across the parking lot and then SOLD this whole PLAN ( of THEIRS ) to OPS2 Paul Musser, current IC Russ Shumate, and incoming IC Roy Hall.
Woodsman— I see what your saying and Agree with every thing you said.
Yes FS crewman are Paid at their GS Grade level no matter what they do on the crew.
HS Crews have occasionally had the Supt. or Asst. put on the Line as DIVS or some other position. Only if they have a ability to operate with out that person.
Some Crews never did it and Some were open to it for Training or to add to their Qualifications.
Email question, “Did you ever get a response to that excellent three-part email you sent to Karen Fann?
My email reply, “Negative, which I really didn’t expect because she was so fast and professional on the other ones I sent her. I am going to post it if she sends one, which I don’t think she will any longer. I think that say’s it all don’t you? She found out I wasn’t as stupid as she thought I was and I found out she is just as insincere, phony and disingenuous as I thought she was. I am going to post this response so everyone will know where we are with this part of the story at least.”
**
** BLUE RIDGE AND ARROYO HOTSHOTS OVERHEAD ALL ORDERED AS JUST ‘CRWB’…
** BUT GM HOTSHOTS OVERHEAD ORDERED UP AS ‘STCR’ AND ‘TFLD’
**
** WHY?
Reply to Sitta post on November 17, 2015 at 7:24 am
>> Sitta said…
>>
>> In my experience, whatever you get ordered as on a fire determines
>> your pay, the kind of tasks you’re assigned, and the kind of supervisory
>> role you’ll have (also, what training experience you can count toward
>> your task book). For example, a particular person may have the
>> qualifications to be an ICT3, an FBAN, a FALC (or FAL1 in today’s lingo?),
>> and a SOF2 (and a bunch of other quals). Whatever their resource order is
>> made out for, that’s their role on that incident.
That’s how it’s SUPPOSED to work, yes.
If you get ‘ordered up’ as something… that’s what you are supposed to be doing.
But something has always been ‘wonky’ with the actual (official) Granite Mountain Hotshot resource orders… particulary with regards to Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.
** THE SHORT STORY
There were THREE Type 1 IHC Hotshot crews ‘ordered’ for Yarnell the night before the tragedy.
Blue Ridge Hotshots, Arroyo Grande Hotshots, and the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
All three top-level ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’ orders are IDENTICAL in the “J- Resource Orders.pdf” file obtained via FOIA request.
The ‘Superintendent’ position resource order and the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ resource order accompanying TWO of the Type 1 IHC orders are also IDENTICAL, whereas the same orders for the same positions on the Granite Mountain Type 1 IHC order are dramatically DIFFERENT.
For both the Blue Ridge and the Arroyo Type 1 IHC orders… the ‘Superintendent’ and the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ were all ‘ordered up’ as simply CRWB ( Crew Work Boss ).
But for the Granite Mountain Type 1 IHC order… the ‘Superintendent’ was ‘ordered up’ using a request for an STCR ( STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ) and the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ was ‘ordered up’ using a request for a TFLD ( TASK FORCE LEADER ).
There’s never been a good explanation as to why Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were being ‘ordered up’ with resource orders that were radically different from the counterparts on the OTHER TWO TYPE 1 HOTSHOT CREWS.
** THE LONG STORY
That original “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document is sitting here in the SAIT Dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAClE93iC-hPoRh8OaVQtOU3a/Resource%20Orders?dl=0
It actually contains 7 ( SEVEN ) different ‘documents’ summarized as…
1) Page 001 – 028 = Filtered report of just A-XXX ( AIRCRAFT ) resource orders
2) Page 029 – 093 = Filtered report of just C-XXX ( CREW ) resource orders
3) Page 094 – 133 = Filtered report of just E-XXX ( EQUIPMENT ) resource orders
4) Page 134 – 205 = Filtered report of just O-XXX ( OVERHEAD ) resource orders
5) Page 206 – 206 = A one page filtered report of just the C5 Granite Mountain order
6) Page 207 – 208 = The original Granite Mountain CREW MANIFEST document
7) Page 209 – 213 = The original ROSS entries for resources ordered through ADC.
More detail on each of these sections in the document…
* Starting on PDF page 1 ( of 213 pages )…
The start of a 28 page ‘sub-document’ that is a ‘filtered’ report of just the AIRCRAFT resources that were ordered for Yarnell. Run-date on that document was July 3, 2013. This section ONLY contains A-XXX resource orders ( that start with the letter ‘A’ ) and the associated ‘fulfillment’ records/notes.
* Starting on PDF page 29 ( of 213 pages )…
The start of a 65 page ‘sub-document’ that is a ‘filtered’ report of just the CREW resources that were ordered for Yarnell. Run-date on that document was July 3, 2013. This section ONLY contains C-XXX resource orders ( that start with the letter ‘C’ ) and the associated ‘fulfillment’ records/notes.
* Starting on PDF page 94 ( of 213 pages )…
The start of a 40 page ‘sub-document’ that is a ‘filtered’ report of just the EQUIPMENT resources that were ordered for Yarnell. Run-date on that document was July 3, 2013. This section ONLY contains E-XXX resource orders ( that start with the letter ‘E’ ) and the associated ‘fulfillment’ records/notes.
* Starting on PDF page 134 ( of 213 pages )…
The start of a 72 page ‘sub-document’ that is a ‘filtered’ report of just the OVERHEAD resources that were ordered for Yarnell. Run-date on that document was July 3, 2013. This section ONLY contains O-XXX resource orders ( that start with the letter ‘O’ ) and the associated ‘fulfillment’ records/notes.
* Starting on PDF page 206 ( of 213 pages )…
A ONE PAGE copy of the details of order ‘C5’ which was the order number of the ‘Type 1 Crew’ that ended up being fulfilled by Granite Mountain
* Starting on PDF page 207 ( of 213 pages )…
The email(s) exchanged between Randy Okon, Richa Wilson, Jim Karels ( SAIT Co-Lead ), Dan Bates, Dan Bauman and Tod Rhines which also contained a copy of the original “Granite Mountain Crew Manifest” for Sunday, June 30, 2013
* Starting on PDF page 209 ( of 213 pages )…
The original ROSS system entries for resources ordered through ADC.
This report has the following ‘Run Title’…
Yarnell Hill Overhead Resources Assigned by ADC Only 6/28/2013 – 6/30/2013
Filtered by Incident Number, Filling Dispatch, Resource Provider Unit, Catalog
Name and Mob ETA
** THE BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOTS – RESOURCE ORDERS
At the bottom PDF page 29 is the actual original order for the Blue Ridge Hotshots…
Request Number: C-3
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 1819 PNT
Resource Requested: Crew, Type 1
Resource Assigned: CREW – T1 – Blue Ridge IHC
On the next page is the start of all the 20 individual Blue Ridge Hotshot CREW member orders ( entered an hour after the C-3 order itself ) starting wth BR Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Assistant Rogers Trueheart Brown.
But notice how THEY were ‘ordered up’. Both Frisby and Brown were ‘ordered up’ as CRWB ( CREW BOSS ) resources with no official distinction regarding who might have been a ‘Superintendent’ and who might have been an ‘Assistant Superintendent’…
Request Number: C-3.1
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 1941 PNT
Resource Requested: CREW BOSS ( CRWB )
Resource Assigned: Frisby, Brian Harold Salvatore ( AZ-FDC )
Request Number: C-3.2
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 1941 PNT
Resource Requested: CREW BOSS ( CRWB )
Resource Assigned: Brown, Rogers T ( AZ-FDC )
** THE ARROYO GRANDE HOTSHOTS – RESOURCE ORDERS
The same ‘CRWB’ position request(s) goes for the ARROYO HOTSHOTS as well when THEY were originally ‘ordered up’. The ‘Superintedent’ and the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ were both ‘requested’ as simply ‘CRWB’.
On PDF page 5 is the start of the actual ARROYO HOTSHOTS resource order(s)…
Request Number: C-6
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2057 PNT
Resource Requested: Crew, Type 1
Resource Assigned: CREW – T1 – ARROYO GRANDE IHC1
Request Number: C-6.1
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0627 PNT
Resource Requested: CREW BOSS ( CRWB )
Resource Assigned: Hickey, Michael ( CA-LPCC )
Request Number: C-6.2
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0627 PNT
Resource Requested: CREW BOSS ( CRWB )
Resource Assigned: Melia, Craig ( CA-LPCC )
NOTE: It suppose it can be ‘assumed’ that Michacl Hickey was actually the ‘Superintedent’ of the ARROYO Hotshots since his was the same first sub-order entry that corresponds to Brian Frisby’s CRWB request under that ‘Crew’ order, but there’s actually no way to be sure just by reading these resource orders. Superintendent *might* have been Craig Melia.
** THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS – RESOURCE ORDERS
On PDF page 32 we see the original order for Granite Mountain, followed by the start of all 20 individual GM Crew member ‘orders’…
Request Number: C-5
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2009 PNT
Resource Requested: Crew, Type 1
Resource Assigned: CREW – T1 – GRANITE MOUNTAIN IHC – AZ-PRC
Then… 45 minutes later… the 20 GM ‘crew’ member orders were created…
Request Number: C-5.1
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2054 PNT
Resource Requested: TASK FORCE LEADER ( TFLD )
Resource Assigned: STEED, JESSE ( AZ-ADC )
Request Number: C-5.18
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2054 PNT
Resource Requested: STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ( STCR )
Resource Assigned: MARSH, ERIC ( AZ-ADC )
** SUMMARY
So here are the three resource orders for the three Type 1 ICH crews…
Req.No. | Ordered Date/Time | Resource Requested | Resource Assigned
C-3 | 06/29/13 1819 PNT | Crew, Type 1 | CREW – T1 – Blue Ridge IHC
C-5 | 06/29/13 2009 PNT | Crew, Type 1 | CREW – T1 – GRANITE MOUNTAIN IHC – AZ-PRC
C-6 | 06/29/13 2057 PNT | Crew, Type 1 | CREW – T1 – ARROYO GRANDE IHC1
All THREE of those top level Type 1 IHC crew orders are essentially IDENTICAL
Now here are the associated ‘resource orders’ for the ‘Superintendent’ and the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ that accompanied all three of those Type 1 IHC crew orders…
Blue Ridge Type 1 IHC…
C-3.01 | CREW BOSS ( CRWB ) | Frisby, Brian Harold Salvatore ( AZ-FDC )
C-3.02 | CREW BOSS ( CRWB ) | Rogers T ( AZ-FDC )
Arroyo Grande Type 1 IHC…
C-6.01 | CREW BOSS ( CRWB ) | Hickey, Michael ( CA-LPCC )
C-6.02 | CREW BOSS ( CRWB ) | Melia, Craig ( CA-LPCC )
Granite Mountain Type 1 IHC…
C-5.01 | TASK FORCE LEADER ( TFLD ) | STEED, JESSE ( AZ-ADC )
C-5.18 | STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ( STCR ) | MARSH, ERIC ( AZ-ADC )
Why the big ‘difference’ in just the ‘Granite Mountain’ resource order?
There’s never been a good explanation.
It is ‘assumed’ that Eric Marsh must have had an ‘STCR’ ( STRIKE TEAM LEADER ) red-card rating since he was allowed to ‘fulfill’ that specific order for that specific resource requested… but there is no actual indication of an STCR rating in Marsh’s red-card qualifications as listed in the official Granite Mountain Crew Manifest.
Followup…
** CHARLIE HAVEL ENTERED THE RESOURCE ORDER INFORMATION
** FOR GRANITE MOUNTAIN
That same “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document actually tells us WHO entered the order information for Granite Mountain into the system.
* Starting on PDF page 206 ( of 213 pages )…
A ONE PAGE copy of the details of order ‘C5’ which was the
order number of the ‘Type 1 Crew’ that ended up being fulfilled
by Granite Mountain
On PDF page 206 we see WHO it was that was responsible for entering
the ‘order fulfillment record’ for Granite Mountain. It was Charlie Havel
at 2054 ( 8:54 PM ) PNT on Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
————————————————————————————-
Req. No.: C-5
Documentation: Request C-5 – Crew, Type 1 – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with CREW – T1 – GRANITE MOUNTAIN IHC – AZ-PRC (AZ-ADC) by CHARLIE HAVEL@AZ-ADC ROSS.
Entered by: CHARLIE HAVEL (AZADC) 06/29/2013 2054 PNT
FWIW… Right underneath that entry is the following where the next day someone named Frank Bedonie noticed that no one had bothered to ‘release’ Granite Mountain from the ‘Yarnell’ incident… even though they were now mostly ( save for one ) DEAD…
Req. No.: C-5
Documentation: I asked EDSP at AZ-ADC to release Granite Mountain IHC off incident.
Crew was burnt over yesterday and had 19 fatalities as a result of the burn over.
As of this writing, crew hasn’t been released.
Entered By: Frank Bedonie (NM-SWC) 07/01/2013 1612 MST
————————————————————————————-
What I am wondering here is whether the SIMPLE explanation for the differences in the way the GM Type 1 IHC overhead was being ‘ordered up’ versus the way the other identical Type 1 IHC overhead was ‘ordere up’ might be because this ‘Charlie Havel’ guy really didn’t know WHAT ACRONYMS to use when ordering up the two overhead for a type 1 IHC Crew?
Perhaps this is just another indication of the FUDGING that took place to even get Granite Mountain assigned to the Yarnell Fire?
It’s a known fact that Granite Mountain was at the end of their allowable work period the night of June 29, 2013… and that is why the Dispatch Center originally told whoever was requesting ‘Type 1 IHC’ crews for Yarnell that Granite Mountain was ‘not available’.
We also know that a lot of phone calls and emails then went back and forth and someone decided that even though Granite Mountain was not ‘showing’ as ‘available’… that they could still be ‘fudged’ into the roster for Sunday, June 30, 2013.
So I’m just wondering if these obvious discrepancies in the way a Type 1 IHC was being ordered up is just one more indication of the ‘fudging’ that was going on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013 in order to get Granite Mountain ‘assigned’ to the Yarnell Fire.
Someone ( Charlie Havel ) didn’t even know what ACRONYMS to use for the work orders for the Supt. and Assistant Supt. of a type 1 IHC Crew… ( normally CRWB? ) and so they just ‘guessed’ at it and came up with STCR and TFLD instead?
They know the proper acronyms.
Why was a STCR and a TFLD ordered for Jun 30th and planned to demob Jul1st?
Work/rest. If violated, and a crew gets killed, the entity the gave the go ahead to circumvent this rule would be in deep shit.
That is correct thank you for catching that.
Reply to Woodsman post on November 17, 2015 at 2:33 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> They know the proper acronyms.
Yea. I guess what I was suggesting is a real ‘long shot’.
Who would be sitting there entering ‘Crew Orders’ and be THAT clueless about how to be entering the orders?
Especially since, if anyone ( Charlie Havel? ) was confused in any way about how to enter resource orders for a Type 1 Hotshot Crew and it’s TWO overhead people ( Supt. and Asst. Supt. )… then the BLUE RIDGE order was already sitting right there already ordered for the same incident and that person cold have just referenced that one if they were at all confused and seen that CRWB is the standard ACRONYM to use for those 2 people.
The resource order for the Blue Ridge Hotshots ( C-3 at 7:19 PM ) went into the system for this same ‘Yarnell’ incident a full TWO HOURS BEFORE someone was now entering the resource order ( C-5 at 9:09 PM ) for Granite Mountain.
Request Number: C-3
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 1819 PNT ( 7:19 PM )
Resource Requested: Crew, Type 1
Resource Assigned: CREW – T1 – Blue Ridge IHC
Request Number: C-5
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2009 PNT ( 9:09 PM )
Resource Requested: Crew, Type 1
Resource Assigned: CREW – T1 – GRANITE MOUNTAIN IHC – AZ-PRC
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Why was a STCR and a TFLD ordered for Jun 30th and
>> planned to demob Jul1st?
This is what I’m saying. Since we’ve established it would be unusual for anyone entering resource orders to have been that confused about what the standard ACRONYM to use ( CRWB ) was… then it would appear that what was being entered was ‘intentional’.
And maybe this person KNEW that they were just ‘fudging’ a crew that really was already at the END of their allowed work cycle into this roster.
So maybe some ‘choices’ were made to pull off the ‘fudge’?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Work/rest. If violated, and a crew gets killed, the entity the gave
>> the go ahead to circumvent this rule would be in deep shit.
We still don’t actually have the FULL story about we got from someone telling someone that the only Type 1 Hotshot crew that was showing as ‘available’ was Blue Ridge… to someone suddenly entering an order for ‘Granite Mountain’ into the system.
It was, apparently, explained to the satisfaction of both the SAIT investigators and the ADOSH investigators… but by ‘the full story’ I mean we still don’t know who really called who first ( or when ) or how someone ended up calling and/or emailing Eric Marsh even after Dispatch had said GM was ‘unavailable’.
It’s like someone got the response back from Dispatch saying that only ‘Blue Ridge’ was available and someone then said to themselves… “Bullshit.. I KNOW we can get Granite Mountain. Make it happen.”
That ‘decision’ was obviously made… we’re just still not exactly sure WHO made it on Saturday evening.
It’s also apparent that whoever entered that order for Granite Mountain on Saturday evening knew very well that even if they were not ALREADY at the end of their allowed ‘safe’ work/rest cycle… that they only had ONE DAY left, at the most… so that’s where the pre-entered July 1 DEMOB date came from.
So how unusual is that?
Fudging a crew into an emerging incident KNOWING full well that even if they aren’t technically already ‘unavaliable’ due to work/rest schedule… that you will only have them for 24 hours at the most?
It just doesn’t even sound like a good idea to shove a Type 1 Hotshot crew into an emerging fire knowing full well that you’re just going to have to pull them out the next day, anyway, and get some other crew to pick up where they left off.
Better to get a FRESH crew any way you can than do something like that.
Simple—-GM was a AD Crew with AD rates ( Contract Rates by Position)
The Other T1’s were Regular hire employed Federal Crews.
The pay for Regular crews is set by their GS Rating. That pay scale dose not change.
Contract crews T1, T2 are under Contract AD Positions on what they served as.
Example Marsh was assigned as a DIVS which would have been higher pay than his
Crew supervisor position under the AD rates. Steed moved up and got Marshes Pay for the Shift. On a Fed HS Crew if the ASST. GS7 took over the crew He /She would still be Paid at the GS 7 Rate. And the Superintendent moved to DIVS would still be paid at their GS9 rate.
You should be able to find the AD rates by position in the Federal Fire Contract Manuel.
Letters Assigned to positions—CRWB Is Crew boss Not Crew Work Boss—
Pre set designators with in the ICS system
Again the Manifest is what is referred to when filling out the order and will come from National or Regional Dispatch Office.
The GM Crew was a Contract crew and carried a different manifest and salary based on position.
I am trying to give you what is normally covered in a 40 Hour Class in Fire Contracts and AD Rates. Not easy here.
Bob,
Is this is directed at me, I know the deal. I’m a current TFLD, STCR, STEN, DIVS(t). state full-time regular and A.D casual hire when on leave (double dipper.) I know the difference between fed, state, ad, contract resources.
I’m sure I’m confused about a lot of other items though. Wasn’t GMIHC a city of Prescott FD resource and thus a contract crew? Are you saying a city FD managed to create an actual official federal crew like Pike, Blue Ridge, Prescott, etc? If GMIHC was A.D. then you are required to have a full 20 crew – no TFLD’s or STCR’s sprinkled in to modify the package.
Thanks for your responses!
It was not directed at you but some who do not understand the ICS system.
The GMIHS Crew was a whole different ball game.
They were Contracted thru the City at a set rate per person of I think $34
Then they were paid AD rates by position? or the Fire Reimbursed the City at The Contract rate and then they were paid by what ever rate the City set per position.
Type 2 Contract Crews are Paid by AD rates, This was a High Bread Type 1 Crew and may have been paid in a totally different format than what we would be use to. The Contract was built to put Money in the City’s Pocket. So the City may have set the rates.
I guess I should say that there’s no such thing as a STCR or TFLD as part of a hand crew, regardless of what it says on one’s red card. A hand crew is a hand crew, Overhead is overhead.
You are right I tried to say that but it may have got lost.
The crew Manifest just lists fro the Leader down thru the last Crewman the organization is Eternal. But the overhead must meet certain red card training.
Along with the First 40 hours. S110 s130
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 17, 2015 at 7:08 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The crew Manifest just lists fro the Leader down
>> thru the last Crewman
I’m not sure it matters… but what you just said ONLY applies to the GM Crew Manifest.
As far as the actual ‘Resource Orders’ go… what you said is exactly how the ‘Blue Ridge’ and the ‘Arroyo’ Type 1 IHC orders looked… but not the ‘Granite Mountain’ resource order.
FWIW… Eric Marsh is NOT at the ‘top of the list’ for the GM resource order. His name doesn’t appear until 18 ( EIGHTEEN ) resource orders DOWN from the top.
Jesse Steed’s order was order C-5.1 ( Top of the list ), but Eric Marsh’s order only comes 17 entries later at C-5.18.
Weird.
Bob,
Whoa…I think it is a lot more complicated than that!
I think this is some kind of smoking gun or at least a spent casing laying on the ground.
If it was just a simple and text book explanation as both you and Sitta gave it would be one thing. But I don’t think it is. I think this means there was a deliberate plan with significant forethought on the part of the fire team to actually spell that plan out with the coordination center.
It is what I would expect after the fact when you are short overhead and you have to give battlefield promotions under exigent circumstances and you would pick Marsh and Steed because they are the “home” team and everybody plays favorites and takes care of their own.
And theoretically it is even a good tactical move since the home team in theory knows the playing field the best compared to “off forest” crews. Who the hell are the Arroyo Grande Hotshots anyway? I have never heard of them, but then again, there are a lot of crews nowadays I haven’t heard before this fire. And Blue Ridge does comes from the tall Ponderosa Pine high country.
This sure means it was a lot different than how I thought it happened anyway! To me, this means the Arizona State Forestry through the fire team pre-planned ahead to save money by ordering up a short team with critical line overhead missing with the intent to strip a hotshot crew of its most important member on a fire that was going to hell in a hand basket in a big way!
Oh shit…Oh dear…Fuck Me! Everyone needs to go back and read the very first article John Dougherty wrote where he quoted me more than everyone else put together. I just didn’t nail it from my dining room…I fuckin’ hit it out of the park with the bases loaded! Those dirty rotten penny pinching scoundrels!
Or am I misreading this?
Probably a lot of that to. I am trying to make it simple for those who have never been in the system, but there are other little trails that can go in many directions.
Well…I can certainly understand you and Sitta explaining how it is supposed to work but I think I get where Woodsman is coming from.
If they wanted hotshot crews, they should have ordered hotshot crews.
If they wanted on-the-sly under-the-table buddy deal, wink…wink, overhead for a fire that was going over the mountain and just waiting for a thunder cell to send it back to eat Yarnell and it’s subdivisions while breaking down the command and control structure of a hotshot crew while removing all checks and balances at the same time that are put in place to keep some dumb ass jerk off overhead from killing a crew with his stupid grandiose, misguided ideas cloaked in subterfuge they should have done just what they FUCKING DID!
Gary,
This is fucking GOLD!!!
“If they wanted on-the-sly under-the-table buddy deal, wink…wink, overhead for a fire that was going over the mountain and just waiting for a thunder cell to send it back to eat Yarnell and it’s subdivisions while breaking down the command and control structure of a hotshot crew while removing all checks and balances at the same time that are put in place to keep some dumb ass jerk off overhead from killing a crew with his stupid grandiose, misguided ideas cloaked in subterfuge they should have done just what they FUCKING DID!”
Write your Goddamn book so I can buy 10 copies.
Thanks in advance,
Woodsman
Fuckin’ A! I know how to play the game! I grew up watching it played, learning how to play it and then playing it…as good as anybody and better than most. And I know what they did…and it is in WRITING!
The State of Arizona Division of Forestry and the Yarnell Hill Fire Fire Team helped Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed kill the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew because they were pinching pennies and gaming the system. And I am ANGRY…all over again!
Fatigue = altered mental status = poor decision making. The absence of competent overhead to keep somebody from doing something stupid = dead firefighters.
Gary,
Work/rest is on my mind. I’ve been on plenty of incidents where positions were filled with whatever you could find. Field promotions. I’ve had them myself. We all know this was cobbed together but looking at the resource order of Marsh and Steed, I just can’t help but wonder why it says TFLD and STCR respectively with a go date of Jun 30th and a demob date of the next day unless they were planning on only being able to get those 2 and not the whole crew until the 1st. Work/rest. Marsh and Steed work the fire Sat. get familiar with the ground, be a part of strategy and tactics, join up with the crew the next day to hit the ground running. Marsh/Steed get an extra days pay at higher AD rate before bumping back down to CRWB, CRWB with GM.
Did someone say the hell with it, send em all anyway and to hell with work/rest, there’s $ to be made, the town’s in peril, and those rules are hillbilly anyway.
ps: I really enjoy hearing your analysis and respect your experience from the old days. I’m current, 16 years on the line. I gotta say, you’re an onery old codger and maginificient bastard and I mean that will all the respect I can muster!
Gary,
One more thing I want to tell you. Every description you have made about the real problem nowadays with the rise of the hybrid firefighter, ICS, and blending of cultures between wildland and municipal fire departments is accurate and actually WAY, WAY, WAY WORSE OF A PROBLEM THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE!!!!!!! Hey, what’s that? Why it’s the next evolution in the destruction on the noble profession of wildland firefighting………….Fuckin’ F…E…M…A!!!!! NWCG? That’s hillbilly. FEMA will make it all better…
Mark my words. It ain’t gonna be pretty.
Be happy you are retired. Hope I make it out intact to enjoy mine.
Respects,
Woodsman
Well…shit.
Yup,
A buddy worked on a fire in the PNW this year that was managed by a unified state type 3 and a state F’in Fire Marshal’s “team.” What the hell is that?
For the past year or so I have heard that all our S courses are going to be generalized under FEMA into all inclusive bullshit national courses – not under NWCG.
Enter the “All Hazard IMT.” Floods, Hurricanes, Trainwreck, overturned tractor trailer of chickens, or forest fire…it’s all the same management concept. You didn’t know that? Well what do you know you old bastard. You need to get with the times.
Just like radio interoperability, they want common emergency response positions for any disaster. I’ve got an entrance pass for our state Emergency Operations Center. I pull shifts occasionally as an agency rep. I see the writing on the wall. What a cluster. haha!
You know what? We still have a group of real wildland firefighters across the country. I worked with some great folks this summer. Been in this business long enough to tell the difference. I know who to watch out for. Personally I think all this new crap is going to blow up in their face when the realize they don’t know what the hell their doing when it comes to a real wildfire. (By God, is this what we are seeing here?)
It’s not all doom and gloom though because I’m a roughneck rabble rouser. To hell with em. I do my job and keep the people I’m responsible for safe. That’s my job. I’m a wildland firefighter! I love my family, I love the woods, I love my job!
I taught a general wildland class to a county fire dept recruits yesterday and at the conclusion I told them all this: You have been taught by me about wildfire safety, strategy, and tactics. The 10 and 18 are not suggestions. If I find out any of you have been killed in LOD because you violated any of them, not only will your wife, girlfriend, mistress or any combination thereof be ticked off at you, I will piss on your grave!
That is all,
Woodsman
Well said, especially the last part…I guess. I know what you are trying to say, but in this context it is a little hard, even for me thinking about the GMIHC, but I know where you are coming from.
I guess Marti is right. I started out thinking things hadn’t’ changed that much since I left because the tools, tactics and strategy is mostly the same but everything else is different it seems now..
Hang in there is about the best i can come up with.
If I have offended or hurt anybody but my comments, I am deeply sorry. My heart is broken for the members of GM and their families…everyone who loved them. I mean my training closing remarks comments to my students may not have been appropriate to share in this forum.
Respectfully,
Woodsman
How could someone think your comments to a bunch of guys/gals who are now trying to become ‘hybrid’ firefighters are ‘inappropriate’?
You are obviously trying to just make sure they fucking STAY ALIVE out there.
Sometimes you DO have to hit a MULE with a 2×4 just to make sure you got its attention.
With any luck… those FFs WILL remember what you said… and they WILL go home to their families at the end of each and every work shift.
WTKTT:
Oh, I’m not going to stop using any tactic I can come up with to leave a hopefully lasting impression on those I teach any wildfire class to. This may not have been the best place to share those exact words.
I can tell you I relate to people like Gary in a lot of ways. Things he has said resonate with me. I’m 16 years on the line as state wff, volunteering for every assignment I could get in-state, out-state during this time. I’d say equivalent experience of a good 2-4 yr shot honestly. I have worked as a volunteer ff and EMT for 5 years but gave that up when I transferred duty stations. I gave it up for 2 reasons. Number 1 is I was burnt out (which is what I always thought was the only reason.) Later I had a second reason – I wanted to stick to my roots and just concentrate on wildland as that’s my full-time paid position. I have experience on both sides. I am a reformed hybrid, I guess.
A sidenote: I have now started incorporating a discussion about the potential problems of different cultures and roles of wildland/municipal in my training sessions. These are not NWCG ‘S’ courses here (although I help teach them as well.) these are general wildland classes to hybrids recruit academies or in-service training at stations. They respond to wildfires regularly and we work with them by default.
You know what? I got the t-shirt in experiencing LODD on a large wildfire in California. Second year as an FFT2 on a type-2 IA crew we lost 3 of 5 on a FS engine one night in a rollover, down the mountain off a shitty road with no traffic control and poor visibility. When I say I got the t-shirt, I mean it, I still have the memoriam t-shirt folks brought in to sell us afterwards. I don’t wear it much because I don’t want to forget them and what happened. Night shift, radio traffic came in from incident within the incident and we sent our medic to triage and treat them. I was new and it hit us all hard. We got back to camp, tried to sleep and went back up the same damn road the next night and kept on burning out. Got the t-shirt.
Another thing Gary said that stuck with me is this. In my earlier days I was a thrill-seeking, 10 foot tall and bulletproof SOB. (Now I’m just an SOB). The risks I took were ridiculous at times – nothing too crazy but unnecessary risks nonetheless. I would take on anything. I showed the fire who was boss…so I thought. Several years later while trapped on an open-cab dozer with fire all around “digging taters,” I realized something that I have never forgotten: “I AIN’T Jack-shit.” To that fire I’m nothing more than something to burn.
I own every mistake I ever made on all those fires but now I have the chance to share my stupidity with others. It’s their choice whether to listen or not. It’s my choice on how to convey the message.
One more thing, I’m no sage. Just a half-way grown up wildland firefighter with a decent amount of experience. I have a new guy in my work area. I am helping to raise him. I told him that I am going to make him into the firefighter I never was. I also told him that right now he is relatively safe with 1-5 years experience. It’s that 5-10 year time period that will kill you because you start to think that you got this fire thing figured out when you don’t.
I feel a huge weight of responsibility to keep the people I have charge of or teach safe. It’s a reflection of my competence as wff to do that. Maybe that is why all this bothers me so much. Would I have made these mistakes as a fireline leader? How close have I come to getting someone hurt or killed? I have to keep on learning all I can until my last day. That’s important to me. That’s why I’m here.
Thanks for listening,
Woodsman
An amazing story appeared down below and it doesn’t deserve to get ‘lost in the weeds’,
so here is Woodsman’s post on November 18, 2015 at 11:38 am brought back up here.
On November 18, 2015 at 11:38 am, Woodsman said…
———————————————————————————————-
WTKTT:
Oh, I’m not going to stop using any tactic I can come up with to leave a hopefully lasting impression on those I teach any wildfire class to. This may not have been the best place to share those exact words.
I can tell you I relate to people like Gary in a lot of ways. Things he has said resonate with me. I’m 16 years on the line as state wff, volunteering for every assignment I could get in-state, out-state during this time. I’d say equivalent experience of a good 2-4 yr shot honestly. I have worked as a volunteer ff and EMT for 5 years but gave that up when I transferred duty stations. I gave it up for 2 reasons. Number 1 is I was burnt out (which is what I always thought was the only reason.) Later I had a second reason – I wanted to stick to my roots and just concentrate on wildland as that’s my full-time paid position. I have experience on both sides. I am a reformed hybrid, I guess.
A sidenote: I have now started incorporating a discussion about the potential problems of different cultures and roles of wildland/municipal in my training sessions. These are not NWCG ‘S’ courses here (although I help teach them as well.) these are general wildland classes to hybrids recruit academies or in-service training at stations. They respond to wildfires regularly and we work with them by default.
You know what? I got the t-shirt in experiencing LODD on a large wildfire in California. Second year as an FFT2 on a type-2 IA crew we lost 3 of 5 on a FS engine one night in a rollover, down the mountain off a shitty road with no traffic control and poor visibility. When I say I got the t-shirt, I mean it, I still have the memoriam t-shirt folks brought in to sell us afterwards. I don’t wear it much because I don’t want to forget them and what happened. Night shift, radio traffic came in from incident within the incident and we sent our medic to triage and treat them. I was new and it hit us all hard. We got back to camp, tried to sleep and went back up the same damn road the next night and kept on burning out. Got the t-shirt.
Another thing Gary said that stuck with me is this. In my earlier days I was a thrill-seeking, 10 foot tall and bulletproof SOB. (Now I’m just an SOB). The risks I took were ridiculous at times – nothing too crazy but unnecessary risks nonetheless. I would take on anything. I showed the fire who was boss…so I thought. Several years later while trapped on an open-cab dozer with fire all around “digging taters,” I realized something that I have never forgotten: “I AIN’T Jack-shit.” To that fire I’m nothing more than something to burn.
I own every mistake I ever made on all those fires but now I have the chance to share my stupidity with others. It’s their choice whether to listen or not. It’s my choice on how to convey the message.
One more thing, I’m no sage. Just a half-way grown up wildland firefighter with a decent amount of experience. I have a new guy in my work area. I am helping to raise him. I told him that I am going to make him into the firefighter I never was. I also told him that right now he is relatively safe with 1-5 years experience. It’s that 5-10 year time period that will kill you because you start to think that you got this fire thing figured out when you don’t.
I feel a huge weight of responsibility to keep the people I have charge of or teach safe. It’s a reflection of my competence as wff to do that. Maybe that is why all this bothers me so much. Would I have made these mistakes as a fireline leader? How close have I come to getting someone hurt or killed? I have to keep on learning all I can until my last day. That’s important to me. That’s why I’m here.
Thanks for listening,
Woodsman
———————————————————————————————-
Well thank you I take that as a heart felt compliment.
And yes…I have believed from the very first day they were playing a shitty game of subterfuge of their own while gaming the system and making an end run on SWCC with the eligibility to even have GMIHC go to that fire because of work/rest requirements.
I know there have been some cussin’ up a blue streak from a bunch of “onery old codger and magnificent bastards” who work at SWCC ever since they got burned on this deal on day one.
Dispatchers don’t like it when they get people who play fast and loose with the rules while doing end runs on them.
I did work at SWCC on numerous occasions and in fire operation centers in several places in Alaska, plus Redding, Ogden, Williams, Atlanta, and Asheville to name the ones that pop into my head right away. Not to mention my own center for four years on the Santa Fe.
FYI – we handled all of the fires from initial attack through expanded dispatch in the geographic area around Santa Fe, not only the USFS but the the BIA, NPS, BLM and statewide dispatch for the entire New Mexico State Division of Forestry since they were headquartered in the state capitol of Santa Fe. And their Assistant State Fire Management Officer worked in my office.
I know better than most how and why Arizona does what they do since they have a nearly identical underfunded and understaffed agency as the Arizona Division of Forestry does…but that does not give them a free pass for the Yarnell HIll Fire. Understanding….yes. A free pass…NO!
Whoops..I said, “I know better than most how and why Arizona does what they do since they have a nearly identical underfunded and understaffed agency as the Arizona Division of Forestry does”
It should say “”I know better than most how and why Arizona does what they do since they have a nearly identical underfunded and understaffed agency as the New Mexico Division of Forestry does”
Oh…and one more thing. I spent three weeks working in Alaska at a station way above the Arctic Circle.
One of the DC 10’s that landed up there with supplies had an entire flight crew from South America I couldn’t understand for shit and I was out of New Mexico!
And when I went out to the plane all of their big cargo straps were stenciled “Air America.” And this was back in 88…I wonder what those boys were haulin’ south? I got a of stories…let’s all get drunk some night and talk about the last fire, the next fire or some other fire!
Sir,
This is why it’s so important that you share this knowledge that you have while your mind is still working. It can’t stay sharp like this forever. (ah, I’ll never get tired of taking cheap shots to the old guys)
Would you mind sharing your email address with me? Thanks!
Woodsman
No…I wouldn’t. My email is…is…is…oh shit I forgot!
Whew, luckily my dear wife posted it on the fridge, it is [email protected], found my keys IN the fridge when I went to get my email address…weird.
LMFAO.
**
** ROSS SYSTEM SAYS ERIC MARSH WAS ONLY ORDERED UP AS AN ‘STCR’
** AND JESSE STEED WAS ONLY ORDERED UP FOR YARNELL AS A ‘TFLD’
As long as we are discussing ‘ratings’ ( for ‘Sawyers’ and whatnot ) and the ACRONYMS that prove you can ( or can’t ) do something or how you are being ‘ordered up’ for a fire…
I’ve always thought it was really STRANGE the way that the official ADC ( Arizona Dispatch Center ) Resource Order document listed the actual ‘positions’ for the Granite Mountain Crew Members and Overhead as entered into the official ROSS ordering system for June 30, 2013.
At the very BOTTOM of that official ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ file that was released by the Arizona Forestry SAIT people as a result of FOIA requests are all of the actual ADC ROSS entries for resources ordered for Yarnell.
The Granite Mountain Hotshot crew shows up in THAT document as ROSS Resource orders C-5.1 through C-5.20 ( One ROSS order entry for each of the 20 members of the GMIHC Hotshot Crew ).
However… the actual (official) ROSS ORDER entries for Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed say nothing about them being ordered up for Yarnell as IHC Superintendent or IHC Assistant Superintendent.
Instead… those ROSS orders say that Eric Marsh was ordered up for June 30, 2013 as a “STRIKE TEAM LEADER” and Jesse Steed was being ordered up as simply a “TASK FORCE LEADER”.
There was NOTHING in that (official) ROSS order for Granite Mountain to indicate this order was for an IHC HOTSHOT CREW at all.
Here is a reproduction of the actual ( official ) ROSS Ordering system records for Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed for the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’…
NOTE: Jesse Steed’s ‘Order Request Number’ came FIRST ( C-5.1 ) but Eric Marsh’s came near the end of the list at position C-5.18…
Req Number: C-5.1
Filled Catalog Item Code: TFLD
Filled Catalog Item Name: TASK FORCE LEADER
Filled by Org Unit Code: AZ-ADC
Res Prov Unit Code: AZ-PRC
Assignment Name: STEED, JESSE ( AZ-ADC )
Mob ETA: Jun 30, 2013 7:00:00 AM
Demob ETD: Jul 1, 2013 7:00:00 AM
Req Number: C-5.18
Filled Catalog Item Code: STCR
Filled Catalog Item Name: STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW
Filled by Org Unit Code: AZ-ADC
Res Prov Unit Code: AZ-PRC
Assignment Name: MARSH, ERIC ( AZ-ADC )
Mob ETA: Jun 30, 2013 7:00:00 AM
Demob ETD: Jul 1, 2013 7:00:00 AM
And here are the ACTUAL ‘red-card’ ratings being listed for both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed as per the official Granite Mountain Crew Manifest for June 30, 2013 ( as shown in the same SAIT ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ file that contains the official ROSS orders )…
1 Marsh, Eric Superintendent DIVS, ICT4, FIRB, FALB, EMT 230 First In/Last Out
2 Steed, Jesse Captain TFLD, ICT4, FIRB, HECM, FALC 250 Last In/First Out
Steed’s RED-CARD QUALS listing does have the ‘TFLD’ rating that the ROSS system says he was being ‘ordered’ for on June 30, 2013… but as for the ‘STCR’ ( STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW ) red-card rating that Eric Marsh was being ordered for… it’s not there at all.
Can it be ASSUMED that ‘STCR’ was automatically ‘included’ as as ‘subset’ of the OTHER red-card ratings that Eric Marsh’s red-card list is showing… such as DIVS or ICT4?
Can you ever be a DIVS or an ICT4 without having the STCR red-card rating?
Either way… it’s still just WEIRD the way that (official) ROSS Ordering System was listing the actual ‘work orders’ for IHCS Eric Marsh and IHCAS Jesse Steed.
Hmm… The designator C-5 tells me that it’s a crew; the 5th one ordered. All the C-5.X entries specify the crew members. It *does* seem weird that Steed and Marsh had other assignments (STLD and TFLD), but were part of the crew entry. I think of those positions as overhead… I’ll have to double check that. Also weird that Whitted and Carter got the CRWB and CRWB-trainee assignments. I have no idea what that means, or if it was some kind of mistake.
Other TFLDs were listed with the overhead (the O-numbers toward the end of the document). Weird.
In my experience, whatever you get ordered as on a fire determines your pay, the kind of tasks you’re assigned, and the kind of supervisory role you’ll have (also, what training experience you can count toward your task book). For example, a particular person may have the qualifications to be an ICT3, an FBAN, a FALC (or FAL1 in today’s lingo?), and a SOF2 (and a bunch of other quals). Whatever their resource order is made out for, that’s their role on that incident. If their role changes (not uncommon), that needs to be reported to dispatch. Occasionally, a wff will temporarily and informally stretch to complete a duty within their qualifications but not change their position (as when an FFT1/2 will briefly fulfill READ or ARCH needs).
So, looking at the YHF resource order for Marsh and Steed, it becomes confusing as to what supervisory and task duties they were responsible for, and what Granite Mt. IHC was billing AZF for those positions. I think this is really important in the sense that their span of control is confusing on their orders (is it for a single IHC crew? multiple crews? crews plus engines?).
A little background: TFLDs and STLDs are considered overhead that control multiple resources, but still under a DIVS (if the incident is complex enough to have DIVSs). A strike team leader commands multiple resources of the same type (e.g., four engines), while a task force leader can command multiple resources of varying types (e.g., two engines and a couple hand crews).
Things can change rapidly (say, if a DIVS gets hurt and needs to be removed from the field). However, if things change too quickly for the ICS to keep up with, a reasonable solution is to disengage until the proper span of control and qualified personnel can be restored.
OK the confusion is simple on Resource Orders.
C5- Order for a Crew
List of Crew overhead and Crew.
Each individual has a list of their Qual’s on the order.
Superintendent and Asst. are not Fire Qualifications.
Crew lists Start with the Head of the Crew, The Asst., and Crew Bosses or Squad Bosses then the Crew members. In most cases its preset at the Dispatch office as a Manifest. The Crew Organization is expected with each order and Crews come with their supervision preset.
The Crew Foreman notifies the dispatch of any change in the Crew Manifest When they put their self’s available and when dispatched.
The reason for the list of Qualifications is simple and used on the Yarnell Fire.
Marsh was assigned a DIVS. And he then bumped Steed up the Crew Supervisor. A BR Crew person was Tractor Boss Qualified and put in charge of a Cat, This dose not happen all the time stripping crews but dose occur on the First 48 hours until orders catch up with the Fire needs. Or some times Crews bump people into training positions to meet training needs.
A Fire orders a Crew.
Dispatch State or Region Dispatches the Crew.
A Manifest of the Crew with the C # is sent back to the ordering agency.
The list starts with the Crew Boss and Goes down thru the crew
With the Listing of each persons Qualifications. The highest to the lowest.
Minimum rating for a Crew Boss/Superintendent is STLC
Many of the Superintendents are Division Sup. rated which is a step above STLC Just a higher Qualification.
You will see the Same thing on a Engine Manifest.
30 Years ago you were required to present your Red Card when you reported to Fire Camp which was cumbersome.
Having the Rating on the Manifest helps the Fire overhead adjust to fill positions when resources are Short
I hope that is clear ask Questions if not.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 17, 2015 at 8:50 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I hope that is clear ask Questions if not.
Yes… it does help… thank you.
But see this new post above on the same topic…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-315766
The mystery is why the resource orders for the overhead for just the ‘Type 1 IHC’ named ‘Granite Mountain’ were so radically different from BOTH of the other Type 1 IHC crews being ordered for the same fire ( Blue Ridge Hotshots and Arroyo Grande Hotshots ).
Your explanation of what really happens actually explains something seen in the resource orders for all THREE of the Type 1 IHC Crews that were ordered for Yarnell. You explained why the DELAY in the fulfillment of the order and then the beginning of the entry of the orders for the 2 overhead and then the other 18 crewmembers.
In each case in the “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document… there WAS that kind of ‘delay’. It ranged from 45 minutes to an hour or even ( in the case of Arroyo ) the crewmember resource orders orders weren’t even entered until the next morning.
Also… makes sense that STLC would be automatically included in a DIVS rating… but Eric Marsh wasn’t ‘ordered up’ as either a DIVS *or* a ‘CRWB’ *or* an ‘STLC’.
Someone ( Charlie Havel? ) ordered Eric Marsh as ‘STCR’.
Marsh was ordered as a T1 Crew with a manifest of the 20 Positions.
Being a AD Crew they are paid by position Filled.
The manifest was set prior to order with crew leader first and so on down thru crew. The Manifest carried all the Quals by person, because of the Distinct difference between Contract and Federal Crews.
STLC is some one under the DIVS in charge of more than one Crew on a Sector you can assign 2or3 sectors to a DIVS. Could also be STLE, STLD
STCR would be a Leader of a Crew–CRWB would be like a Squad Boss with in the Crew.
A little more confusion a GS 9 could be a IC or OPS but still only be paid at their GS rating. You do not get paid more for filling higher positions. Some IC’s could be GS 12,13 Etc.
TFLD—Task Force Leader
That is above a STLD
A Task Force consists of severial recourses like Engines, Crews and Tractors on the same piece of line.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 17, 2015 at 4:01 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> TFLD—Task Force Leader
>> That is above a STLD
Is it also above STCR?
If so… then on Saturday night… someone HIRED Jesse Steed to be Eric Marsh’s BOSS the next day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A Task Force consists of severial recourses
>> like Engines, Crews and Tractors on the
>> same piece of line.
Yes. By all accounts… Jesse Steed was never heard walking around the YFD parking lot saying…
“Okay. Your TFLD is here now. I brought some guys with chainsaws with me… but where are my Engines and ‘other crews’ and dozers and shit?”.
So it’s not likely Jesse Steed even knew ( or even cared ) what the actual ordering system said he was ‘ordered up’ as.
Even so… it’s a mystery why he was ‘ordered up’ as TFLD whether he cared about it or not.
You still have to show a signed copy of your red card as part of the check-in process.
the above comment is to Bob P. who said 30 yrs ago you had to show your red card.
Wasn’t sure if the were still doing that with the new Computer system in Dispatch. So still not totally Automated. Thanks
Reply to Woodsman post on November 17, 2015 at 3:02 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> You still have to show a signed copy of your red card
>> as part of the check-in process.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots never officially ‘checked in’ to the Yarnell Fire at all.. so there was no opportunity to check ANYONE’S ‘red cards’.
See the ‘long story’ about this ( including check-in officer William Brewer’s ADOSH testimony ) in the following ‘new’ post up above…
** GRANITE MOUNTAIN NEVER ‘CHECKED IN’
** TO THE YARNELL HILL FIRE
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-315872
I was not in any way involved with the Yarnell Hill fire.
Your Resource order discussion made me think of this (speculation):
If Marsh and Steed were ordered for overhead instead of part of the crew, maybe it was because of work/rest guidelines…maybe they knew GM needed rest time before engaging the YHF. Marsh and Steed could time-in now and join the rest of crew a day or two later…and this plan (following work/rest) was throw out the window – crew engaged earlier than they were supposed to?
Why else would the RO show a mob date of Jun 30th and a demob date of Jul 1st for Marsh and Steed?
Sounds like a catch up due to what happened. They really were not Demobed
in the Resource orders till the next day. Holes in the System so to speak.
Holes indeed. Still sounds to me like they knew the crew had mandatory rest but they had a change of heart and pulled strings to make it happen. I’ve never seen an order for overhead with a planned demob for the next day in the RO.
Yes we discussed that Region refused to dispatch them because of rest requirement but the State went back and ordered them direct and Marsh accepted knowing they were on a rest period.
The Supervisor should have turned down the order.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 16, 2015 at 1:08 pm
NOTE: This conversation is being brought up from down below in
a thread that was running out of room.
>> On November 16, 2015 at 11:06 am, WTKTT said…
>>
>> So ‘Sawyer’ is by no means the equivalent of an official position like ‘Squad Boss’
>> or ‘Assistant Superintendent’ or ‘Superintendent’. ‘Sawyer’ is just a ‘task’ that
>> needs to be done and can be performed by anyone on the crew who is able to
>> operate a chainsaw. It COULD be ‘fixed people’ for a given season… but could
>> also be different people for each assignment. It depends. Correct?
>>
>> On November 16, 2015 at 1:08 pm, Bob Powers replied…
>>
>> You got it—- also on contract a person and Saw or the saw would get
>> additional reimbursement if provided by the Crew.Where the Feds buy their
>> saws they are just part of the Crew and no additional. Type 2 crews are
>> generally issued saws in fire camp or at the fire cache before they get to
>> the fire. They also must be carded to operate the saw.
Not trying to belabor the point… but I’m not sure I understand this statement…
“They also must be CARDED to operate the saw.”
How do you get CARDED ( I assume you meant RED-CARDED? ) to just ‘operate a chainsaw’?
I just checked even the latest NWCG ( National Wildfire Coordinating Group ) official document that seems to have all the ‘qualifications/requirements’ for everything anyone could ever be ‘red-carded’ ( and the ACRONYMS that go with all those ‘quals’ ) and I’m not seeing anything that just says someone is “qualified to run a saw” ( other than the FALx ratings ).
That document ( latest/greatest as of just a month ago, October, 2015 ) is here…
NWCG ( National Wildfire Coordinating Group )
Document: PMS 310-1
National Incident Management System
Wildland Fire Qualifications System Guide
As of: October 2015
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/memos/eb-m-14-021a.pdf
They are now calling the old ‘FALA, FALB and FALC’ using new acronyms like ‘FAL3 ( Basic Faller ), FAL2 ( Intermediate ) and FAL3 ( Advanced ).
And ( of course ) one of the requirements of even the basic ‘FAL3’ is that CLASS known as…
“Wildland Fire Chain Saws (S-212)”
…but there is still nothing in this document that indicates someone can be ‘red-carded’ with an official rating to be running a chainsaw other than the ‘FALx’ ratings.
In other words… there is no such thing as ‘SAW1, SAW2 or SAW3’… or even anything as simple as ‘SAWO’ ( Saw Operator ).
Granite Mountain Hotshot Dustin Deford was only listed in the official GM Crew Manifest for June 30, 2013 as having an FFT2 rating and an ICT5 rating. Nothing else listed…
From the GM Crew Manifest for June 30, 2013…
Name: DeFord, Dustin
Position: Crewmember
Qualifications: FFT1, ICT5
In the same most-recent NWCG document… there is still NO requirement for an FFT2 to have either taken the ‘Wildland Fire Chain Saws (S-212)’ CLASS *or* to have any kind of ‘FALx’ rating at all.
Same goes for Kevin Woyjeck, as listed in the June 30, 2013 GM Crew Manifest.
He only shows the ‘FFT2 and EMT’ rating ( no FALx whatsoever )…
Name: Wyojeck, Kevin
Position: Crewmember
Qualifications: FFT2, EMT
So even in Woyjeck’s case… one of his obituaries said he was an ‘expert’ with a chainsaw… and he certainly ( probably ) ran one for GM from time to time… but where is this ‘red-card rating’ you are referring to that SAYS any particular WFF is officially ‘qualified’ to be running a chainsaw?
Is it simply acknowledged on Hotshot crews that as long as it’s just brush chopping that anyone at all can run the chainsaw… but the moment it’s anything that even resembles a TREE… then the person with that chainsaw better have at least a FAL3 rating?
Minor typo above.
New NWCG ‘FALx’ ratings are ‘FAL3 ( Basic ) FAL2 ( Intermediate ) and FAL1 ( Advanced ).
Sentence above should have read like this…
They are now calling the old ‘FALA, FALB and FALC’ using new acronyms like ‘FAL3 ( Basic Faller ), FAL2 ( Intermediate ) and FAL1 ( Advanced ).
I’d be surprised if anyone working with the crew for more than a season didn’t have at least a FALA rating. If they were doing fuel reduction in the winters, I’d think they’d want everyone qualified, and have people switching out between swamping/scattering/stacking and cutting during a work day. They might do this training in the winter/spring, meaning some of the new hires could’ve missed it. During fire season, I would guess that the most experienced sawyers who didn’t have supervisory or specialist duties would generally fall into place as the designated sawyers on an incident. I don’t know this for a fact; it’s just what I would expect given their fuels background.
The S-Course also carries a Seperiate Card not a red card that says you are Qualified
to operate a Chain saw not only for Fire but for normal work like a Brush crew Required by OSHA of all things.
So most of the crew probably took the standard training and carried that training course card but had not been upgraded to Crew sawyer status for Fire.
Or just had not had it put on their Qualifications (Red Card)..
Red Cards are issued at the First of the Year with Qualifications Signed by a Staff Officer and approved by a Red Card Committee.
People Go to courses during the year and fill positions during the Season then are upgraded the following year. Crew Bosses or STLC are suppose to have that training in their background.
QUESTIONS??????
Ah… okay… so there are CARDS… and then there are CARDS.
Some of them just verify you ‘took a class’.
Some of them ( the red ones? ) say you got ‘approved’ to do something.
I would certainly hope no one pulls a rope on a chainsaw around other people without at LEAST having taken a ‘class’ or been otherwise ‘instructed’ how to operate the damn thing.
That’s like…. ‘minimum expectation’.
That’s why there are Supervisors.
There is a standard Chain saw operating course.
and also Faller Courses that go to a Higher level.
Not sure which way their ABC goes but the Highest is Qualified to Fall any Size tree Like 4’FT. 100 FT. Tall type Logging Trees Snags ETC. A lot more expertise than just cutting brush.
There should be just the one red card, renewed at least once per year, that every wff carries with them on every incident.
Then there are task books, which generally stay at the home office, which show when you got checked off as having completed necessary training exercises, signed by the supervisors who mentored the trainee.
There are certificates, which verify that classes were taken. Sometimes classes and non-fire experience are enough to claim a qualification (think technical specialists). Most of the time, a qualification requires a class AND experience (like FALA, FALB, FALC), meaning a task book is created.
Our red cards have our faller rating listed on them, along with all the other quals. There’s an online IQCS (Incident Qualification and Certification System) that wff’s records are supposed to be kept up to date in. It lists one’s experience, training, and qualifications; also eligibilty (physical fitness tests passed and up to date). From that record, the red cards are printed out with the qualification info. Once people get enough time and quals in the system, they can’t fit them all on the physical card, but those quals are still in IQCS and ROSS (Resource Ordering and Status System). There should be enough lines for all the positions a person would expect to do in a given season. In our district, there are a few designated people who can enter data into IQCS for all the wffs, and the FMO (Fire Management Officer) has the duty of double-checking that the card is correct, then signing it.
The faller position also had its own task book when I took S-212.
http://ticc.tamu.edu/Documents/IncidentResponse/TIFMAS/Basic_Faller_%28FAL3%29_2014.pdf
It’s supposed to get signed off, just like any other qualification.
Caveat: I’ve worked with people who’ve come from other districts where no one would enter the wff’s experience and quals into IQCS. We keep our paper copies of everything, because most of us don’t have our own logins to IQCS. The only way to prove you’re qualified for a position, should the personnel with access not enter it, is to have the paper copies of filled in and signed task books, certificates, etc. Sadly, our fire management office would get calls every year from people who’d moved on, hoping we’d kept copies of their records, so they wouldn’t have to retake a class and reopen a task book. A lot of 20-somethings aren’t the best record keepers.
Sitta… thank you for all of that.
My only confusion ( above ) came out of Bob Powers’ question about WHO were the actual FOUR ‘Sawyers’ for Granite Mountain on June 30, 2013.
It looks very much like at least one of them ( Dustin Deford ) was not showing any ‘FALx’ rating whatsoever on his QUALS as listed in the crew manifest.
So that confused me ( a little ).
Up to that moment… I was under the impression there was no way you could ever be a ‘Sawyer’ for a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew UNLESS you at least had the basic ‘FALx’ rating on your ‘red-card’.
Apparently… that’s not the case.
The Superintendent ( or Assistant ) can just hand you the saw ( and one would hope they know you already know how to use the damn thing ) and say “Here… you’re a ‘Sawyer’ today”.
Yeah, I find that confusing. I wonder if it was just an error that it wasn’t listed with his other quals on the crew manifest? It’d be convenient if someone here had access to the IQCS system and could look everybody up (though their records might have been removed). Gee, that’s another thing you’d think the investigators would’ve done right off the bat.
From Susan Olp’s article in the Billings Gazette:
“DeFord worked in Carter County’s Hazardous Fuel Reduction program and as a firefighter every summer from 2007 to 2012. But his dream was to be a Hotshot firefighter, and in the summer of 2013 he won a coveted spot on the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”
http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/firefighter-dustin-deford-killed-in-arizona-wildfire-laid-to-rest/article_fcadd16e-eb4b-5e06-8c7c-ea6eaec89110.html
Surely Dustin *had* to have had saw quals with this background. It would be amazing (though, I s’pose, not entirely unbelievable) to me that no one would have ever put him in S-212 or signed him off. I would *think* that would be a pretty major oversight.
I just got a call today that Sonny is on life support since 11-12-15. I last saw him on Wednesday on Veteran Day. He is at Yavapai regional. Keep him in prayer. I just gave doc his life support directive and I will remain here through it all. Nobody notified me sooner because I changed number. His son let me know tid bits via email but as I am Arizona State secretary poa for him I learned it all since but let you know privately but he can’t breathe on his own and well in private for rest…he deserves that right. Please uplift him in prayers.
Devastating news, Joy… but thank you for letting us know and please keep us posted.
You bet. The ICU let’s me go in but can’t sleep in there. The phone here in waiting room says 928-771-5669 so not sure if you call it rings me right here at waiting room desk. Yet I’m not leaving even though he is on life support. Sucks. Damn YHF. He was healthy before the fire.
I don’t pray much… but I’m doing it tonight.
Prayers sent for Sonny
OMG!
Just jumped in here after a chaotic and aggravating weekend.
All my prayers and blessings to you both.
Candles lit.
Tell Sonny I’m rooting for him!
Namaste.
Joy, I just saw your post. My heart goes out to you two. Sending thoughts of strength and comfort your way.
11pm. Sonny was taken off life support yesterday but I had to go run to Gilbert-Chandler to get his dog…police thing…so they placed him back on because he failed tests…today has been a moment to moment day and very weak but much better not sedated…he communicated with closed eyes and frow gestures light to deepen. Doc and nurses and I don’t know the outcome…has a lot going on..one nurse was on the yhf as another role not a nurse…he would be neat to be interviewed by you all…I want to thank everyone for the continued love warmth and support. The good thing in all this is Tex is Irish…so I like to be optimistic and feel with the prayers he will get through but I am realistic too…sucks is all…good night.
Thanks for the update, Joy.
Need some help–
And maybe a save for records.
I know we discussed in the past—I would like the names of the 4 sawyers if any one has quick reference to them. Thanks
Bob,
I can recall three of them:
Scott Norris
Andrew Ashcraft
Travis Turbyfill
Kevin Woyjeck?
Not sure if he was OFFICIALLY ‘on payroll’ as a SAWYER that particular day, but he was certainly a qualified ‘sawyer’.
From the following online ‘obituary’ for Kevin Woyjeck…
http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/granite-mountain-firefighter-worked-in-rapid-city/article_cce664dc-ed22-5a1e-83a5-0291917e53b8.html
———————————————————
Woyjeck is remembered as an “overachiever in everything he did in the world of firefighting,P by Dale Deuter, a retired crew boss for the South Dakota Division of Wildland Fire.
“He was an excellent sawyer who felled many trees in Custer State Park during the current mountain pine beetle epidemic. He was a friend to all on the crew and well-liked by everyone,” Deuter said.
———————————————————-
Thanks Guys
Bob,
Here’s a photo of the GMHS in their perfectly good SZ, with the red headed guy adjusting his gloves. He’s wearing chaps, so he would’ve been a sawyer or a swamper.
http://meredithaz.images.worldnow.com/images/8183969_G.jpg
I know we ID him once but cant remember his name.
I believe we narrowed that fellow with the beard and the chaps down ( in that photo ) to either Dustin Deford or Garrett Zuppiger… but NEITHER of those two crew members actually had any kind of ‘FALx’ ( Faller ) rating, according to the actual Granite Mountain crew manifest.
There were 11 ( ELEVEN ) members of the GM crew who had ‘FALx’ ratings ranging from ‘A’ to ‘C’… but Deford and Zuppiger did NOT have any such rating(s).
Which begs the question…
Do you even NEED a ‘FALx’ rating of any kind to be paid to be a ‘Sawyer’ on a Hotshot Crew?
Actually.. scratch what I said above about Kevin Woyjeck. Not sure he was one of the designated ‘Sawyers’ on June 30, 2013.
Oddly enough one of his obituaries said he was an ACE ‘Sawyer’…
“He was an excellent sawyer who felled many trees in Custer State Park during the current mountain pine beetle epidemic”
…but his QUALS as officially listed on the GM Crew Manifest for June 30, 2013 only say this…
Name: Wyojeck, Kevin
Position: Crewmember
Qualifications: FFT2, EMT
There is no ‘FALx’ rating there at all for Woyjeck, despite him being known as an ‘Ace Sawyer’.
So, technically, that means that GM had at least 12 ( TWELVE ) qualified ‘Sawyers’.
Also notice that whoever did the GM manifest misspelled his name. They had ‘Wyojeck’ instead of ‘Woyjeck’.
The manifest also says that Brendan McDonough had a ‘FALA’ Faller’s rating… but I’m having a little trouble picturing McDonough running a chainsaw.
Could have been a Swampier.
In brush cutting any person trained in saw use could operate the saw. So they could have swapped around with 12 on the crew.
To fall trees you need the 1 Ratting.
That’s good though I was messing with something that did not work out.
Swampers wear chaps; there is usually one swamper per sawyer. I can’t remember if they were carrying saws in any of the photos.
Oops. Sorry Bob, I just saw your comment (I probably ought to refresh my browser window every once in a while).
Dose not hurt to confirm what we say.
In my day we had 2 Sawyers and the swampers could also run a saw if necessary. The crew bosses also were Qualified. The assigned Sawyers were not changed all year like assigned positions.
You will here from old hot Shots the pride of being lead Hook (Brush Hook) on a crew. They always lead out a California tradition before Saws interred the scene. They were not a multi use tool like the Pulaski, Shovel & McCloud, not very useful in mop up.
I was thinking we should have a list of the crew and each position they fit into. the 2 Crew bosses, Sawyers and qualifications years worked etc. for reference. But that may not work and would fit in your Blog for easy reference there is a picture of each crewman in their memorial page. May be just a Rabbit hole?
Don’t know who’s “on payroll” as a sawyer for that particular day, that’ doesn’t make sense, they’re not contract fallers or a saw team. They were all qualified sawyers–that was the crews original mission–fuel reduction and operating a saw would be necessary.
The “redheaded guy” is Garret Zuppiger, adjusting his chaps. The other redheaded guy, Dustin DeFord in the front of the picture also has chaps on. Travis Carter could have been on a saw, he was a C saw.
OK the one with the RED Beard is Garrett Zuppinger.
But still do not know if he was operating a Saw or a Swamper.??
**
** THE ORIGINAL GRANITE MOUNTAIN CREW MANIFEST
For what it is worth… the bottom of the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document has always contained an actual copy of the original Granite Mountain Crew manifest for Sunday, June 30, 2013.
‘Squad Leaders’ and ‘Lead Crew’ positions are listed, but not ‘Sawyers assigned for that shift.
There were actually 11 ( ELEVEN ) members of the GM crew who had ‘FALx’ ( Faller ) ratings ranging from ‘A’ to ‘C’.
Here is what is on page 207 ( of 213 pages ) of the “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document that the SAIT released in response to those FOIA requests…
The actual GM mainfest from June 30, 2013 was sent as an attachment to an email sent from from Todd Rhines to Dan Bauman just 6 days after the tragedy…
————————————————————————
From: Rhines,Todd
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 5:41 PM
To: Bauman,Dan
Subject: GMIHC Manifest 2013.doc
Granite Mountain Hot Shots
PRESCOTT FIRE DEPARTMENT, 928-777-1707
1700 IRON SPRINGS ROAD, PRESCOTT AZ 86305
# NAME TITLE QUALIFICATION FLIGHT WEIGHT
1 Marsh, Eric Superintendent DIVS,ICT4,FIRB,FALB,EMT 230 First In/Last Out
2 Steed, Jesse Captain TFLD,ICT4,FIRB,HECM,FALC 250 Last In/First Out
3 Whitted, Clayton Squad Leader CRWB,ICT4,FIRB,FALC,EMT 245
4 Caldwell, Robert Squad Leader FFT1,ICT5 210
5 Carter, Travis Squad Leader CRWB,DOZB,ICT5,FALC,EMT 250
6 Mackenzie, Chris Lead Crew FFT2,FALA 260
7 Turbyfill, Travis Lead Crew FFT1,ICT5,FALA 265
8 Ashcraft, Andrew Lead Crew FFT1,ICT5,FALB 250
9 McDonough,Brendan Crewmember FFT2,FALA 200
10 Thurston, Joe Crewmember FFT2,FALA 245
11 Parker, Wade Crewmember FFT2,EMT 230
12 Rose, Anthony Crewmember FFT1,FALB 200
13 Zuppiger, Garret Crewmember FFT2 230
14 Norris, Scott Crewmember FFT1,FALB 230
15 DeFord, Dustin Crewmember FFT1,ICT5 235
16 Warneke, William Crewmember FFT2,EMT 215
17 Wyojeck, Kevin Crewmember FFT2,EMT 180
18 Percin, John Crewmember FFT2 240
29 McKee, Grant Crewmember FFT2 190
20 Misner, Shaun Crewmember FFT2 205
Vehicle Information:
2009 Dodge 4500 Plate#G630EK ID#1311
2006 Ford F750 Plate#G117DX ID#1167
2006 Ford F750 Plate#G118DX ID#1168
2004 Ford F250 Plate#G327DV ID#1074
Cell #’s Eric Marsh: ( xxx-xxx-xxxx ) Jesse Steed: ( xxx-xxx-xxxx )
——————————————————————————-
For what it’s worth look at their Master Records. Whatever Todd Rhines was passing off as a manifest doesn’t necessarily represent their actual qualifications.
Why are you blocking me?
The red-headed guy with a beard who is a sawyer in Chris’s photos and videos is Dustin Deford. I”m absolutely POSITIVE about that.
He was also photographed as a sawyer in a major photo from the Doce Fire.
I figured all of this out finally, but don’t have the documentation, since I STILL haven’t schlepped my hard drives around the corner.
Then that makes ( at least ) 13 ( THIRTEEN ) people on the GM crew qualified to run a chainsaw. The 11 ( ELEVEN ) that actually show some kind of ‘FALx’ rating in the GM Crew Manifest… and then the two that don’t but we know they could handle a chainsaw…
Name: DeFord, Dustin
Position: Crewmember
Qualifications: FFT1, ICT5
Name: Wyojeck, Kevin
Position: Crewmember
Qualifications: FFT2, EMT
Thanks that dose clean that up. the Picture of Zuppinger through me off.
Again he could have been a Swamper but his years as a FF would tend to make him a Sawyer.
About 15 or so years ago they started certifying Sawyers.
Before that it was just Fallers. The new requirements happened after I retired.
I gave many a Chain Saw Operating class to Crews. I was a Falling boss 4 years into my carrier and could maintain and tear down a saw and fix it unless it was terminal. The good old days of the Bow Bar Brush Saw. They were a hell of a saw till OSHA went nuts on Safety. I still have one for Fire wood cutting.
Question: I was under the impression that being a designated ‘Sawyer’ on a Hotshot crew also meant slightly higher PAY than just a ‘crewmember’. Is that not the case?
Maybe on a Contract Crew.
Fed’s hire on GS grades based on qualifications and do not raise or lower salary for the day to day jobs.
They can start at GS 2 but most on HS are GS 3 Starts with GS4’s lead crewman which could be Sawyers. GS 5,6, are Squad Boss. ASST SUPT. are GS 7 and Supt. are GS9. The GS 5 and 6 are the ones with 13/13 appointments I suppose there could be GS 4’s in some areas with appointments too..
Contract crews like Granit Mountain would have had their own pay scale. They could change if they had a pay for Sawyers. I do not know.
Sense the city had the contract and a set rate they would have set up the Pay for positions I would assume.
So for the Feds the answer is no seasonal trained fire personnel do not switch pay based on what they do in the crew from day to day. They have a set pay scale unless they are hired to a higher grade in case of a vacancy or a temporary assignment to replace a empty slot..
Thank you. That’s what I was confused about.
So ‘Sawyer’ is by no means the equivalent of an official position like ‘Squad Boss’ or ‘Assistant Superintendent’ or ‘Superintendent’.
‘Sawyer’ is just a ‘task’ that needs to be done and can be performed by anyone on the crew who is able to operate a chainsaw.
It COULD be ‘fixed people’ for a given season… but could also be different people for each assignment. It depends.
Correct?
You got it—- also on contract a person and Saw or the saw would get additional reimbursement if provided by the Crew.
Where the Feds buy their saws they are just part of the Crew and no additional. Type 2 crews are generally issued saws in fire camp or at the fire cache before they get to the fire. They also must be carded to operate the saw.
** TWISP UPDATE
**
** MOTHER OF TOM ZBYSZEWSKI SAYS SHE HEARD HER SON’S CREW BEING
** SENT UP TO ‘PROTECT HOUSES’ OVER THE RADIO ON AUGUST 19, 2015.
An article has appeared just today, written by Sarah Kaplan of the Washington Post, which contains a recent interview with Jennifer Zbyszewski, the mother of deceased firefighter Tom Zbyszewski. Jennifer still works for the US Foresty Service and now she is sayinig she actually listening to the radio that afternoon at work and she actually HEARD someone order her son’s crew to go up Woods Canyon Road to ‘protect houses’.
She says…
—————————————————–
“…she heard over the radio that Tom’s crew was being sent up
Twisp River Road to defend some houses in the path of the fire.”
—————————————————–
“…sent up Twisp River Road”… by WHO?
It’s still unclear who was in CHARGE of the Initial Attack at that point.
It is actually UNLIKELY that the initial responder(s), Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller and his men, were still ‘in charge’ of the fire later that afternoon when the fatalities took place.
The radio scanner traffic says the Incident went to ‘Unified Command’ sometime after Don Waller arrived but before the fatalities.
Chief Don Waller himself was the one who went up Woods Canyon Road early that afternoon to warn ALL residents to get out immediately or (quote) “you are going to die”.
Chief Don Waller is also the one who said he could not get his engines up there because it was too dangerous… and there were no (quote) “safety zones up there”… and it is still believed Chief Don Waller was the one who announced specifically ( over the radio ) “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD”.
So it remains UNLIKELY that Chief Don Waller would have been sending Engines, dozers and/or crews up Woods Canyon Road.
So who did? Remains to be seen.
Here is the article that appeared TODAY…
The Columbian
Published: November 13, 2015, 6:03 AM
By Sarah Kaplan, The Washington Post
http://www.columbian.com/news/2015/nov/13/community-wounded-by-wildfires/
From the article…
—————————————————————–
WINTHROP — The three crosses are made of tree branches and twine, planted in a charred gully by the side of the road. One is topped by a helmet and a loop of fire hose. A piece of paper is lodged under a rock beside another, though the message is long gone, washed away by rain that came too late.
At this spot, an engine carrying four Forest Service firefighters toppled off the narrow, twisting road as it escaped the “hell storm” of the Twisp River Fire, one of nine wildfires that raced this summer through Okanogan County, on the arid eastern slopes of the North Cascades.
Three men were killed instantly by the smoke and heat: Richard Wheeler, 31, a veteran firefighter who grew up in Michigan; Andrew Zajac, 26, a newlywed from Illinois; and Tom Zbyszewski, the local kid with the goofy grin.
Tom Zbyszewski’s parents live in a single-level house just outside the town of Twisp, 13 miles from the road marked by the three crosses. Jennifer and Richard Zbyszewski are both veteran firefighters and longtime Forest Service employees, and they usually didn’t worry about Tom when he was out on the line. But Jennifer, who still works at the ranger station in Winthrop, felt nervous when she heard over the radio that Tom’s crew was being sent up Twisp River Road to defend some houses in the path of the fire.
When the news came that there had been “entrapments” — the terrifying term for when firefighters are stuck inside a blaze — she called her husband. Hours passed and more phone calls came, each worse than the last. Then the worst one.
—————————————————————–
The Initial Attack IC was the County Fire Chief and he CLEARLY stated to those responding to the Twisp Canyon Fire to NOT go up Woods Canyon Road. He held that plenary IC authority only until it was declared ‘Unified Command.’ At that point, there were actually three IC’s: (1) Okanogan County IC (2) Department of Natural Resources (DNR), and (3) USFS. This trifecta of THREE IC’s resulted in the Orwellian ‘Unified Command.’
The excerpt below is from the the ICS-300 Lesson 4: Unified Command that would be for those pursuing the Type 3 IC level.
One of the notable quotes in this ICS-300 lesson is: “… it was also recognized that every incident must have ONE PERSON with the RESPONSIBILITY AND AUTHORITY TO DIRECT TACTICAL ACTIONS; otherwise, CHAOS would easily prevail on multi-jurisdictional or multi-agency incidents.” (EMPHASIS ADDED). There was clearly CHAOS on the Twisp Canyon Fire during the IA phase, as is the case on most IA fire under those conditions.
Moreover, they are to assign an Operations Chief (OPS) to oversee the actual operations of the fire, e.g. tactics and strategy, which entails Resource placement. Under ICS, unless the IC delegates someone to fill other positions, THEY (IC) are responsible for fulfiilling the role(s) of that position. In other words, the IC is fulfilling ALL roles until and unless they assign other to perform those critical tasks.
So, in this ‘Twisp Canyon Fire ‘Unified Command’ debacle, the IC had NO Operations Chief (OPS) and/or Division/Group Supervisors (DIVS) to manage the responding Resources. All they established were “contacts” for each flank. This was a pretty major deal.
A serious safety problem arose when the USFS Engine then took the lead and went up Woods Canyon Road and engaged the right flank of the fire. Was the USFS Acting Engine Boss now the USFS ‘Unified Command’ IC? Was the Acting USFS Engine Boss even qualified to be performing in that position?
This was very similar to the 30-Mile Fire Investigation when the local District Engine Crews went on into the fire area, past the Type 2 Crew and Hot Shot Crew that has DISENGAGED due to very aggressive fire behavior. The Engine Crews found some spot fires (“No shit Sherlock”), then asked for the Type 2 Crew to come in to assist with line construction. Once a van load of the Type 2 Crew arrived, then Engines left the scene for water. The Type 2 Crew Squad was now cut off from escape.
The “Accident Investigation FACTUAL Report and Management Evaluation Report” is 108 pages with the usual cover-up and whitewash. It’s worth reviewing and comparing these two fires because there right next door to each other, one canyon apart, AND the 30-Mile Fire Investigation was “controlling” the Twisp Canyon Fire CRAP “Investigation.”
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/lessons/documents/Thirtymile_Reports/Thirtymile-Final-Report-2.pdf
One more thing,unrelated to the Twisp Canyon Fire, that is noteworthy of the 1994 South Canyon Fire, the 2001 30-Mile Fire and the 2013 YH Fire was the infamous ‘lunch spot.” All these WFF did the right thing and more or less disengaged from actual fire suppression, yet it was if time stood still for them while they were disengaged in their respective ‘lunch spots.’. They all lost situational awareness of their respective fire weather and associated impacts on the ensuing aggressive fire behavior. The fire behavior that would take their lives. Fire Order Number 1 deals with the weather and Fire Order Number 3 states to “Base all actions on current and expected fire behavior.” They ignored those as well as the associated Watch Out Situations.
That is a well put to gather summery. Thanks
RE: Basecamp
Apologies to the folks getting multiple and unwanted invites — there’s a bug with the access that I’m working on…
Thanks for all the great ideas! I’m going to start by creating a Basecamp, which I’m calling “YHF Collaborative”. I’ll be able to invite people as they contact me via sitta.lookout (that gmail address).
I chose Basecamp for now because: a) I’m familiar with it, b) We can upload documents (including images), run separate discussions by topic, use tags and search tools, and c) It’s free (and not expensive if we need to expand). Also, we can work privately in a small group there, and then publish via WordPress, Gary’s page (if he wants), Wikipedia, or a different site.
I’m a visual person, so the abilities to make and refer to maps and organize/tag photos are important to me. Marti, I’m not sure how to export your photo data out of Lightroom, either, but I’ll look into it. I wanted to jump into some of the truck and person ID discussions, but it was hard to do without having kept up with all the photo downloads.
My first priorities with the Basecamp site will be to set up discussions for: Timelines, Personnel, Maps, ADOSH, SAIR, Weather/Fire Behavior, and carefully populate those areas with applicable documents (I’m afraid of doing another huge doc dump).
More to come…
Thank you Sitta, but I do not want to get involved unless there is something I can do to help on a specific issue because I do not have a page or a web site pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire and I don’t want to build one unless you need that in the future and I can help.
Fortunately, there are people participating in this thread and probably even in the shadows who have minds like steel traps who can, and who are willing to help in organizing data, but I am not one of those people. I can barely follow what people like WTKTT and Marti put out, much less generate or organize it.
If that changes in the future and you decide you do need a web site as WTKTT suggested, I of course will be willing to help. In the meantime I am going to be working on the book I will never finish…”The Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter” and lurking in the shadows waiting for the opportunity to pounce or if somebody pushed my buttons.
Although I actually do have a mind like a steel trap as well…but mine is always closed.(please note WTKTT…more self deprecating humor. Do you like me better now? Good). You know if you work with Class A ball breakers your whole adult life…you are likely to become a Class A ball breaker. So don’t blame me…nothing is MY fault.
Gary, you know I hate you but………
I am REALLY interested in ”The Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter.” I think it’s really Yuuuuuuge.
Between your rants about the Incident Command System and your rants about the the Hybrid Firefighters, you have opened my eyes in a MAJOR way. And I haven’t seen anybody critiquing that at all, at least as passionately as you are.
Everybody jumped on board the ICS awhile ago (for some “good” reasons); but now I think we’re seeing the cracks — as I said downstream something along the lines of “as the crow flies, the distance between Esperanza and Twisp might turn out to be quite short.”
And now everybody’s jumping on board the Hybrid Firefighters model. Prescott, obviously, has totally bought in. Bernalillo County (where I live) has totally bought in. Etc etc etc etc. NOBODY is questioning it, that I know of.
———————————————————-
I didn’t have time to reply to your response downstream to my comment about the Slide Fire. I may as well now.
I wrote that comment specifically because I figured you were there in Flagstaff inhaling the smoke, and at least somewhat paying attention. I stand corrected and I appreciate that. And yes, I am familiar with those side canyons. Been there.
I stand corrected. They didn’t “herd” the fire up the side canyons. When it started burning up those side canyons they said, “OK Jose, just go there, and we’ll big-box you at the top (fortunately they had a lot of “top” up there).
And, personally, IMHO, I think they had created plans WAY ahead of time for doing this. I don’t think they were making any of this up as they were doing it. Except having to deal with the inversions.
While everybody went “Oh NOES, oh NOES, oh NOES, oh NOES, oh NOES, they’re letting West Fork burn down to the ground!!!!!!!,” including me. Although I understood why they were doing it.
Which it actually didn’t.
However, from what I understand, from what I’ve read and heard over the years, there were three things everybody (including but not limited to the Forest Service) has been worrying about regarding wildfires starting in Sedona/Oak Creek Canyon.
One being burning down that relatively elite and expensive “resort” community called Sedona (too bad Yarnell wasn’t Sedona). I remember visiting Sedona in the early 1970’s when I was at Prescott College, and it was nothing but something of a wide place in the road at that time — nothing like now. I’m still having a hard time visualizing anybody, in reality, thinking of Sedona as just nothing but “fuel,” politically speaking, although, all things considered, materially speaking, that is exactly what it is. But HELLO?
A second being burning down all that Ponderosa Forest north of it. Which, as a student of climate change ever since I was 13 years old, I am not even remotely assured is ever going to grow back in any meaningful way.
A third being burning down the communities in that forest north of it, including even possibly parts of Flagstaff. You may think that the Forest Service doesn’t think about that, but I think a whole lot of OTHER people do.
I know that scenario is something of a stretch, but I can’t help but believe Rodeo-Chedeski and Wallow, at their gynormous sizes, weren’t on anybody’s imagination-radar before they happened, either.
Maybe I’m mistaken on that. I’m always willing to be corrected. I’m just a plebe-civilian.
And I really do believe that those three things are at least part of the reason there has been so much “fuels mitigation” in that area between Sedona and Flagstaff.
(And yes, I agree TOTALLY that We The People, of both the US of A and the Great State of Arizona, etc,, have mostly only ourselves to blame for wanting the Guberment to work for us when we want it, but only are willing to pay chump change to pay for it. Absolutely!!)
.I agree that wildland fires on the Wildland-Urban Interface, and how they are being approached/fought, is more of a Pandora’s Box, on more levels, than are actually being addressed. Including the ICS and the “Hybrid Firefighters.”
——————————————
Which is why I also, at this time, agree with WTKTT that Arizona Department of Forestry is, indeed, in their appeal rationale, painting themselves into a corner.
In your eyes, they are correct and justified. I can understand how you see that. But I think your vision is out-dated. I see you as being something of a purist regarding wildland fire-fighting, and understandably so. But I think that is not where reality, at this time, is. And, obviously, you understand that, also, thus your passionate objections.
I think that, given the ACTUAL realities of what is going on in the WUI (including what YOU are saying about the “fail” of the ICS, and the “fail” of the whole ‘Hybrid Firefighter” thing), for AZDF, in this age, to CLAIM that they have absolutely NO scope of authority regarding doing what they are doing a WHOLE lot of (i.e. managing fires using Incident Command Teams that include things like “Structure Protection Specialists,” and various versions of Hybrid Firefighters, creating, supporting, and entering into all these multiple-agency response teams, and involving themselves in training all these “Hybrid Firefighting” crews, is a dead end.
Which is why I agree with WTKTT in his point, that I think you are not “getting.”
If the judge agrees with AZDF in their appeal…..
…….that will set a a LEGAL PRECEDENT that AZDF, whenever they do ANYTHING to protect ANYTHING other than trees and bushes, they are henceforth acting outside of their scope of authority, and, therefore, they CAN’T LEGALLY DO THAT.
ANYTHING.
How’s that gonna work out????
Namaste.
Well…that certainly is a lot of very well thought out arguments that I am going to have to respect by giving a lot of thought to in return.
I only have one thing to say right now, and that is what do you mean by, “One being burning down that relatively elite and expensive “resort” community called Sedona (too bad Yarnell wasn’t Sedona)”?
I think you should substitute the word “incredibly” for the word “relatively.”
And you have just explained WTKTT’s argument in a way he has not and I think I now get it. So I am going to have to give that some thought as well.
And as far as hating me…that’s OK, we all know there is a fine line between hate and love and I intend to win you back with my self-deprecating humor.
I “hate” you (not even really but playing along with the conversation) but like I “hate” my Republican uncle in Phoenix, who I really love.
Except for that the degrees of separation between you and I are probably way less than the degrees of separation between you and me.
But I still love my uncle! Even though I think his politics suck. But he inherited those p0litics by growing up and living under the “Democratic Machine” in Chicago.
But he’s a wonderful person.
Sheeeesh, it’s time for me to hit the pillows.
Total typo.
“Except for that the degrees of separation between you and I are probably way less than the degrees of separation between you and me.”
Should read:
“Except for that the degrees of separation between you and I are probably way less than the degrees of separation between him and me.”
I’m out.
Goodnight. Namaste. Hugz.
One more thing on Sedona I hope it dose not burn My Son lives there now and plans on buying a Home there.
You said:
“One being burning down that relatively elite and expensive ‘resort’ community called Sedona (too bad Yarnell wasn’t Sedona)’?
I think you should substitute the word ‘incredibly’ for the word ‘relatively.'”
——————————
I’m lost in quotation marks.
But, absolutely. I see that being a huge difference between how the Slide Fire was fought vs how the Yarnell Fire was fought.
The other thing I’ve been thinking a lot about this is about pre-wildfire planning. I think that A LOT of pre-wildfire planning was going on in Sedona. While, unfortunately, NONE of that was, effectively, going on in Yarnell.
There was a huge amount of concern about what a wildfire in Sedona could cost, in regards to Sedona and all the stuff north of Sedona, but there was absolutely no amount of concern about what a wildfire could cost in the area of Yarnell.
And I, personally imho (your mileage may vary) place a whole lot of responsibility f0r that on the inhabitants of Yarnell, to be perfectly honest. Which is why I think that their claim regarding the fire’s destruction of their property is weak.
I, however, think their most powerful claim has to do with the screw-up of the evacuation orders-timing.
I think that is their most powerful claim, and that doesn’t even implicate AZDF. I think it really implicates Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department.
Which is why I think AZDF’s decision to appeal by saying that they have no responsibility whatsoever to doing anything whatsoever regarding anything other than protecting trees and bushes, is a strategy in which they are painting themselves into a corner.
Blue corn popcorn is pretty awesome. I may think about investing in some of it. Along with a collection of herbs and spices to sprinkle upon it.
Thanks again, Sitta!!
Basecamp, for anyone who wants to check it out:
https://basecamp.com
“Work together the easy way
Basecamp’s unique blend of tools is everything any team needs to stay on the same page about whatever they’re working on. There’s nothing else like it!”
I really do think the best way to transfer the photo metadata/keywords is just send up the photos with it all attached. And I may not send full-sized photos.
BTW When I send clients photos, I usually do it via dropbox.
I think the conversation downstream about how public vs how private this convocation is does need to be addressed. It’s kind of a sticky thing. I’m not keen on opening it up to John Q Public. But I think some kind of an invitation system would work.
I’ve never worked on any kind of thing like this, so I’m really excited about learning how to do it.
BTW By the convo you had with Gary downstream about Charmington — do you live in Charmington?
Namaste.
Reply to Sitta post on November 12, 2015 at 5:23 pm
>> Sitta said…
>>
>> I chose Basecamp for now because: a) I’m familiar with it, b) We can upload
>> documents (including images), run separate discussions by topic, use tags
>> and search tools, and c) It’s free (and not expensive if we need to expand).
I’m a little ( not a lot, but a little ) worried that this ‘free Basecamp’ sounds like ‘crippleware’ and you can quickly be forced to have to start paying the monthly fees.
Those start at $29 per month… then $79 a month… then up to $3,000 a year ( yes… THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS a year for the ‘Full Monty’ version ).
But it certainly looks like it was designed for exactly a purpose like this.
Only way to be sure is to give the ‘free’ version a try.
Followup…
Just confirming that I have already sent the requested email to…
sitta (dot ) lookout (at) gmail (dot) com
Good for you.
And I will do that, also, tomorrow.
It’s really a ‘nice swimming pool’ over there… but I’ve already discovered that it’s no solution to some of the nuts-and-bolts problems we’ve always had to contend with here using WordPress.
I’m worried now that Sitta might have not realized how much work SHE is going to have to take care of.
Apparently… ( in the messaging section ) you can’t ever EDIT or DELETE the comments you make. Only the person ‘running the project’ ( the one who created the project ) can do that.
That’s no better than what poor Mr. John Dougherty has had to contend with over here for so long now.
I was really hoping to at least get past THAT nuts-and-bolts headache and at least be able to EDIT ( or delete ) comments being made so things don’t get as MESSY as they have always been right here with WordPress.
Same for leaving ‘comments’ on any of the ‘documents’ that are already ( and will continue ) appearing.
You CAN, in fact, EDIT those ‘document comments’… but only the person running the project can DELETE them ( when necessary or when requested ).
That’s going to be tough on Sitta.
There are some strange things going on with the permissions on the group I set up. I’m going to have to get help from Basecamp support with that before things will be stable and workable. I *think* Basecamp will still be the place. Also, this chat thing WTKTT were trying out is called “Campfire” and is a very simple structure — it might be worth turning that widget off and just using the message boards. I’m hoping my duties as administrator will be almost non-existent, because I get caught up in physical world stuff for months at a time. It does look like there’s the option of anointing other admins, so that’s a possibility.
6-30-13
That day changed me forever.
I have faced losses over time-
pain and sorrow-
undescribeable.
overwhelming.
I have slowly integrated my losses that I have experienced and all the
tear jerking grief that comes with it into a life ever changing growing
journey and I never thought my sharing would get John MacLean to publicly
speak before smokejumpers at a convention to have his own pals reach out to me
and apologize for his words as well question the very words he said on us and other fires.
I like John MacLean.
I will buy his book even though others told me they in previous books were not represented true to nature.
I will never forget I had an injury on my hand and the grace and the warmth of John MacLean over-shined as he
reached out to mend my injury. He must be an amazing dad and grandfather. The tender way he helped—I really feel
this Yarnell Hill Book will be done ever so tenderly as well. Good man.
I support his views on me because that
is how in his life and way of things he perceives me. Yet, any person if you like me or not,
you want to invest the time to review all my cat scans/mris/thermograms/labs in person to properly assess
the dialects you heard from John MacLean; reach me. I am leaning on the idea or concept others heard him wrong maybe or
misunderstood his meaning. I am taking the
time and effort to organize that and regain missing information that lays in my backpack in Lovelock, Nevada
that Sonny was the last one to have such in his hands before I ran so far as the day turned into dark…and as
the dew set on to a new day my hiking pal had already been on the highways to California, Oregon than into Montana…
He was making home in Montana June/July 2014. We have such a unique bond. He is independent seeking the one lady who will just love
him—no others to her life but just him and his dog and chickens—yet he is not looking just would like that
to just be for his life and he spent almost five years in my life and it seem 2015 really set things where he maybe
comprehends I am never going to be
anything but “the old married couple”..”he’s old”…”she’s married” humor. Hiking/explore pals. Prior; daily companions/doc visits/share a meal here and there.
Having this transition of my losses was very deep for me and threw my life out of balance.
I could not pick the phone or drive to see them or look in the room; death took them and I had to accept that and come to grips with it. SUCKS!
When Sonny wanted to trail back in 2011 almost 4.5-5 years ago…I trailed…yet locals felt I bailed…and in a sense I did.
I had been always there for the locals ALWAYS and for my husband and my family and friends that I just always wanted
to pioneer Arizona and do a ME thing for once yet kind of impossible in today’s world especially with an ol’ time miner/logger who feels
grandfathered in with all the modern laws. He likes to be alone away from any troubles and when alone he seem to control any troubles coming in
yet together on the trails it just naturally was drawn our way because he has his way of thinking and I have mine.
I finally believe I can rebuild my life after the losses. Versus throwing myself into other ventures.
I reckon looking back everyone around me was very patient with me and allowed me to grieve at my own pace and at a natural process.
You cannot out run grief—you just have to FEEL it—
The initial pain I felt on my losses I could not catch my breath..naseau…I felt a split…a shift….Sonny saying good-bye
so many times to me when not sober made me wake up that he has reached his cross road for his life in knowing me…
It has been such a sense of unreality to me…I felt like I just shifted into a different world that we labelled with humor-
The Twilight Zone- or an old western novel; Zane Grey…
“are you sitting down?”…Have you ever heard that before? I have. with horrific news to follow…
It is really hard to pull myself out…it feels like quicksand or a mud pit or an old mammouth in a tar pit— so dark and so hard to
pull myself out…my heart is ripped—it hurts—too painful. I had friends disappear because I did not know what to say come
Holidays because I did not want to celebrate or say anything…
…so I stay in this YHF aftermath because when my pebble hit that pond and I ended up on those Weavers
witnessing alot…it is so damn important to me (tears rolling down my cheek and throat choked up and nose sniffling)…I should be able to tell and retell my story without judgement and the others too Gary should be able to share or do what they need to do to get through—
or also without degrading me like I heard John MacLean has done to me.
the “ripple” effect of my single stone on that pond to reach a clarity I can understand of why they died…I needed to see that ripple…
There is a strong presence I need to stay in this until the day I pass on. Not obsessed, yet their deaths will be forever constant
and changing in my life. There is no rule book on grieving or how so I guess Gary your words hit me hard the other day
and I find it ackward to feel defensive on a lady rumored to me does not like the hikers but I just thought you were
harsh on the loved ones and the homeowners and Holly too- how does that bring it together—judging another’s grieving process—
We need to function in this world…and it would be nice to know we can go to this site and feel at ease to share without
being dissected—You are so unique because of what life showed you Gary but others may not have the capabilities or
comprehension on life like you and the harsh way shared may be just REALITY and such but is there a more effective way
to tell the people…there is no right way…everyone’s environment is different when grieving but do not tell me there
is not a person accountable to that weekend—maybe not so much in a court room but in the heart of that weekend there
is people who clammed up after the fire that KNEW these loved ones since they were a kid and choose to silence themselves and separate themselves
feeling overwhelmed and I hope in time those people SPEAK UP—and I guarantee you there is no sob stories of these locals to share or as you say
“compare” to yours…there is no element of who’s stories better…it’s our story- that’s all but in listening to each one
and seeing who has died and who will soon and who never was ill and now is…slogging in thru the days…napping when before
they were very active…”did that really hppen?”…OH YEAH the YARNELL HILL FIRE happened and so has the deaths since…
the emotional impact if overwhelming and it seems unmanageable…yearning is the top emotion…than shock than anger than
afraid to let the tears come out because afraid the tears won’t stop to the point it will kill you emotionally, physically and spiritually.
Guilt. That is hard when people have a moment of laughter; they feel guilt for their laughter. Lower tolerance for frustration & that is me in this—
grief and trauma overwhelmed me when I was helping people clean up and do defensible space…selling my own assets to help the rebuild and to make
this person have something for their new home to have them die since the fire. Finding ways to address my issues—
I gave myself permission to be with Sonny all these years and not have any regret yet the thing that hurt the most looking back is to hear a
person intoxicated and feel they wasted their time knowing you during the tough time in my life and be able to cast you to the cold more than once—I cannot talk much
about my losses because I begin to feel like I cannot function- Yet I try to give myself “finishing lines” by helping others to help
me through it. I do not need Sonny in my life when he shares like he does with others—
but there is REAL LIVES AND DEATHS and in that thereis a story to be shared that should not have to worry about being judged or dissected…
talking helps us all move forward—
New Years Day is always hard for me because I am starting another NEW year without my loved ones…this New Year’s I plan to do something magical-
the unexpected grabs in life—nothing prepares you for it—Sonny was one for me. I felt it will always just be— such a kid-ship—I mean there was just too many
fun happy times out on the trails but for whatever reason it began to bubble over—and heart broken…I honestly like Sonny but only sober…and he only
likes me far away…
I leave with this question: is there a way in which your grief has impacted you in a positive way?
My answer; YES. there is joy and happiness still there as long as you do not just EXIST and you LIVE LIFE…you never get over grief but you do learn how to embrace it—
I look forward to my desert trails again…taking the Investigative Mascots Mae West and the kittens into caves and hike the desert—
I will honor ALL FALLEN by LIVING LIFE…
HOPE….HONOR…JUSTICE!!!!
God Bless Us All-
CHANGED FOREVER
WTKTT said, “This could actually all be done ( totally free and for the world to see ) on Wikipedia.
The EXISTING Wikipedia page for “The Yarnell Hill Fire” is an absolute JOKE.
I’m talking about ANOTHER Wikipedia page that might be called…
“The Yarnell Hill Fire, and what REALLY happened”.
Anyone can sign up to be a ‘contributor’… and he top level ‘narrative’ ( the only thing most people would want to read ) can be almost totally comprised of hyperlinks to other pages that explain ALL the details that support the statement or conslusion… and the references section could be the same…
…but I don’t know if that’s what Sitta was ‘envisioning’… or not.
That’s why I asked the question way up above.
It’s time to hear more about what Sitta is really asking for.”
And I say, yes, we need to hear from Sitta, but I think Wikipedia is a really bad idea because I think Sitta wants to create a index able data base of facts that can be memorialized and accessible for those who want to know the truth and researchers forever…more or less. And as you say, ANYBODY can edit and add anything to a Wikipedia page and Sitta would have absolutely no control over what is posted there..
I think the best way to describe what Sitta wants to do is to build a spread sheet of information that can be referenced by anyone at anytime.
I am not pushing the idea of a web site because you are the one who brought it up, but I do think that is a good idea. I think everyone should think of a web site as a digital bulletin board and filing system. In other words a place to POST and store work and results…not do it.
The only other way I know to do it would to create that work as a stand alone “spread sheet” of information as a digital file that would then have to be transferred to those who request it by some means, maybe a disk. But that would be impossible to make into a “living” document that can be constantly updated with new information and revised to correct past assumptions or conclusions that has been established to be incorrect.
Now…there are places that provide you with space to create web sites for free, but those come with conditions, limitations and are built with programs that would be like creating a magnificent (as all of my web sites can be described as) carvings with a hatchet whereas Yahoo provides the artist with fine carving tools. Which is why I offered to pay for it if I do it, it wasn’t out of generosity, it was out of selfishness, I can’t work without fine carving tools because I am an ARTIST.
Anyway, that’s my two cents worth, not it is time to hear from Sitta.
Yes… for its strengths and ease of use… Wikipedia has its drawbacks.
Not the least of which is the fact that you really can’t STORE things at Wikipedia.
You can create pages that contain just about anything… and every part of any text or narrative can, of course, just be ‘hyperlinks’ to other documents with more detail ( that is, in fact, what the WEB is based on )… but you still can’t STORE tons and tons of photos and documents up at Wikipedia. Any links to photos or PDFs or other documents STILL have to be kept somewhere else and maintained separately.
But as far as being able to ‘discuss’ things and have that lead to verifying facts or conclusions before ‘publishing’… Wikipedia was made for that. The ‘discussions’ happen over in the ‘modification threads’ and at all times it’s all about what changes may or may not need to made to the top level ‘presentation’ to make it more accurate.
The entire ‘revision history’ is also maintained and therein lies the ‘transparency’. All changes can be ‘traced’ and anyone can see how any part of the top level presentation got to where it is… who made the changes… and why.
Sitta originally said…
“my plan is to create a reference that will relieve us from having to do the giant document searches, and allow us to collaborate on a visual medium.”
It’s the ‘collaborate on a visual medium’ part that already suggested ‘website’.
I’d still like to hear exactly how Sitta ‘envisioned’ this working… both at the presentation level and the ‘nuts and bolts’ level ( As in… how are ongoing changes and updates to be made ).
Oh…and one more thing. The actual cost of this project is infinitely insignificant to the amount of WORK involved, especially since everybody’s time is valuable…the Good Lord only gives each of us a finite amount of that particular commodity.
I personally think Sitta is either a saint or a masochist for even suggesting this project, or possible even a saintly masochist, because it will be a real bitch (non-gender specific) for those who undertake it, no matter how it is done or made available to the masses.
OK…just ONE more thought, at least until another pops into my head. ANYBODY who has the password and knows how to use the web site building program that is used by wherever the web site is hosted can make changes and additions to the web site.
It really isn’t all that hard to learn…well actually, it was hard for me to learn since when I retired all I thought a computer was good for was to use as a fancy typewriter and I was completely self taught. And my instructor was a fucking idiot who woke up in a new world almost every day.
See…that was more self deprecating humor to make myself more likeable and to enable people to relate to me better…WTKTT please take note of this tactic, like I said, you could definitely use some work on your people skills.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 10, 2015 at 8:47 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Dozer Operator would be by himself in a Lowboy
Gayle C. Clemens said she saw a dozer going by her place ( quickly ) at around 3:00 PM. from the exact direction that Cutter Rains would have been coming from if that was him she saw passing her house.
Seven minutes later would come the radio scanner reports of firefighters being trapped in a driveway up on Woods Canyon Road.
Seven minutes is NOT enough time for the dozer that Gayle C. Clemens said she saw to have made it all the way to Woods Canyon Road, unloaded, and then traveled all the way up Woods Canyon Road.
So that would indicate that the dozer might not have even been sent UP Woods Canyon Road until AFTER the first reports that some ( still unknown? ) group of firefighters were trapped in someone’s driveway up there on Woods Canyon Road.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> STL Dozer and Trainee would have been in at least 1 truck or
>> could have been seperiate.
Exactly. In addition to the mysteries about how many MEN/WOMEN were actually ‘up there’… how many VEHICLES were up there? We still don’t know.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I would say the Engine was a totally seperiate incident.
Yes… and I’ll bet if that engine hadn’t left the road we would have never heard about any of this. People would still have been burned that day and gone to hospital ( and released )… but we might not have heard about any of it.
So it was definitely the ‘crash incident’ and the resulting deaths that put this one ‘on the map’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Most likely the DNR responders would have been on the Scene first
>> as they would have responded first the FS engine would have arrived
>> some what later based on location and response time from a Forest
>> station. But that is all a lot of speculation.
That Methow Valley Facebook Thread that was posting scanner traffic in real time since the moment the fire was first reported ( circa 12:30 PM ) seems to indicate the Okanogan Foresty FS Engine 642 arrived BEFORE the DNR people… but it’s hard to tell for sure from just that radio scanner traffic.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Normally a Dozer would unload in a fairly large parking area
>> not go up a small dirt road.
>> So was the Dozer already unloaded and building line when the
>> Burn Over occurred????
>> On the Fire but in a different location????
>> I just do not see a Dozer Lowboy being on that small road with
>> no known turnaround.
If you look at ‘Woods Canyon Road’ via Google Maps… there really is no question that there is NO WAY a ‘loboy trailer’ with a dozer on it could have made it up those hairpin ‘switchbacks’ there when first climbing up Woods Canyon Road.
So it’s really pretty safe to say that the dozer HAD to have been ‘unloaded’ down there on the Twisp River Road itself.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It also sounds like the Dozer was Already working building line
>> when they were burned over.
Well… actually… if that ‘dozer’ that Gayle C. Clemens reported seeing headed into Twisp ( in a hurry ) at 3:00 PM really was Cutter Rains coming WEST from his home on State Route 20 ( as he would have that day )… then there really was no TIME for him ( Cutter Rains, anyway ) to have been all the way up Woolds Canyon Road by the time the radio scanner was reporting FFs trapped in driveways up there.
Those reports started showing up on the scanner just 7 ( SEVEN ) minutes after Gayle C. Clemens reported that dozer headed INTO Twisp.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Need a lot more info at this point.
Yep. That’s for sure.
The radio-scanner thread really does seem to indicate some kind of situation where SOME group of FFs ( who? ) got themselves trapped in a driveway up there on Woods Canyon Road… called in their emergency… and now we have both CREWS and a DOZER being sent UP THERE to try and help them… and we also now have an emergency VLAT drop trying to ‘help them’ as well.
So if it was the DNR Dozer and crew being sent up to help them who are the ones who got the non-fatal burns… and it was Engine 642 also being sent up to help them that ended up with the 3 deaths and the one horrible burn injury ( Daniel Lyons )…
…then who the hell was it that was ‘trapped in the driveway’ up there and maybe the reason they were being sent up there in the first place?
There is STILL definite confusion about how many FFs were really ‘UP THERE’ on Woods Canyon Road.
Even when Sheriff Frank Rogers first confirmed he deaths in a phone call with the media ( from the scene of the accident itself ) he also confirmed that at least 3 or 4 others had been ‘burned’… but there COULD be more. He said “that’s all they’ve TOLD us”… like he wasn’t even in charge of finding out what happened and the Forestry people were already the ones handling the scene and ‘feeding’ him ( the actual Sheriff ) information.
http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/Sheriff-Frank-Rogers-confirms-deaths-of-firefighters-near-Twisp/34814662
Sheriff Frank Rogers ( on the phone )…
————————————————————-
Where they were at was active fire. We do know 3 or 4…
…it COULD have been even MORE… we just know 3 or 4… that WE
were TOLD did receive.. ya know… burns… and then we know
of the 3 confirmed deaths because we’re on scene now.
————————————————————-
For what it’s worth, and I’m falling asleep at the wheel, what I found today.
“Risk Management Committee Safety Gram: Fatalities, Entrapments and Serious Accident Summary for 2015” from the NWCG:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAEOApqFQoTCNSDu-K4i8kCFQwtiAodaS8CyA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nwcg.gov%2Ffilebrowser%2Fdownload%2F6683&usg=AFQjCNED8QAzE9PuTSUeGJVhE79bh2FvfQ&sig2=J6s8FRpsXUGGAMuBtPmzhg&bvm=bv.107467506,d.cGU
I hope this works, it’s kinda convoluted. OK I think it works.
Twisp Fire. Federal/USFS State/WA DNR. Entrapment/Burnover. Number of People 6. Fatalities 3. 3 Hospitalized, 2nd and 3rd degree burns.
When I looked at earlier today, it didn’t include the Valley Fire in California. But not it does. So, apparently it is being continuously updated.
Interesting.
Typo:
“When I looked at earlier today, it didn’t include the Valley Fire in California. But not it does.”
Should read:
“When I looked at earlier today, it didn’t include the Valley Fire in California. But now it does.”
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 12, 2015 at 8:45 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> “Risk Management Committee Safety Gram: Fatalities, Entrapments
>> and Serious Accident Summary for 2015″ from the NWCG:
>>
>> Twisp Fire. Federal/USFS State/WA DNR. Entrapment/Burnover.
>> Number of People 6. Fatalities 3. 3 Hospitalized, 2nd and 3rd degree burns.
That’s not even correct.
We already know there were at least SEVEN injuries/deaths up there on Woods Canyon Road.
3 FFs died in the crashed Engine, Daniel Lyon escaped out the back left door but was horribly burned.
The 2 DNR employees and the 1 DNR contractor were also burned somewhere farther up Woods Canyon Road. All three were also sent to hospital.
So that’s SEVEN fatalities/injuries… not just SIX.
The MYSTERY is whether there was some OTHER group of FFs that were the ones that were actually trapped in a driveway… and their ’emergency’ might have actually been the REASON that the DNR people and Engine 642 might have been SENT up Woods Canyon Road in the first place.
FWIW. An interview with Fernanda Santos yesterday, via Latino Voices on Huffington Post.
“A Passion for Telling True Stories: An Interview With Journalist Fernanda Santos of The New York Times”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-a-olivas/a-passion-for-telling-tru_b_8507468.html
Q: “Your first book comes out next year and is about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona. What was it about this story that convinced you it deserved longer treatment beyond a column or series of columns?”
“SANTOS: Reporters and editors seemed mostly concerned about assigning blame — the question in everyone’s mind was, who sent 19 firefighters into a canyon full of unburned brush as fire moved their way? My curiosity was centered on a different question: Why did none of the 19 firefighters try to run? They died together, side by side in a space of roughly 20 feet by 30 feet. If those were young, strong and ambitious men, as all accounts pointed to, why was it that they chose to stay together? That required me to learn about each of the men, which I did, to understand the culture of loyalty they had all bought into. Once I figured that out, the fateful choices they made in their final moments started to make sense to me, and “blame” acquired another meaning.”
In other words… her book IS going to be a lot like Kyle Dickman’s. No real push to find out all the details and just a lot of ‘here is what they were probably thinking’ stuff.
Nothing wrong with that. That’s still fascinating reading for some.
What I’d really like to see is someone publish something that has more ‘information’ in it.
Example: Someone who has even made an attempt to interview some/all of the people that were never interviewed at all by any team of investigators… and who still know critical things about what was going down that afternoon.
Well…as I have been pointing out for two years now, it wasn’t the characteristics of those particular men that kept them together, it was the common hotshot culture. And if you take that to it’s logical conclusion, then her book is going or should reveal that the “blame” for their deaths would be on the hotshot culture. And then that automatically leads to a discussion of “group think” and human factors as RTS (among others) have pointed out and perhaps poor training in the area of “how big is big enough” as I like to point out.
To Marti and WTKTT,
I want to address you two especially, because you have done the most sleuthing and have more details at your recall than I ever knew. I may be biting off more than I can chew, here, but my plan is to create a reference that will relieve us from having to do the giant document searches, and allow us to collaborate on a visual medium. I haven’t produced anything yet, but I’d like to update here when I get things ready, and invite you to participate, edit, critique as your time allows. I want this to be private enough that we’re not giving internet trolls any ammunition, but open in the sense that isn’t for anyone’s book deal or scoop. While it may be a good exercise for me to retrace our (particularly *your*) steps on my own, it’s probably more expedient for me to avoid reinventing the wheel.
Mainly, I want you both (and John Dougherty) to know that I’m not trying to undercut what you’ve done. I feel a need to synthesize all of the work here and put it down before I walk away for good. I want something to hand to the next person who can’t let this go.
I agree.
By ‘visual medium’… what did you have in mind?
Some kind of ‘clickable timeline’?
Do you have the ability to create an actual WEBSITE that can contain
HTML pages ( clickable links, images, etc. )?
Another thing Sitta stated…at this point we seen how damaging the public can be so this should be done private and now people afraid to speak public can create a fake email and use a library PC so there is no excuse to get truth out but I agree that it should be off here so book makers can’t pin their source here. I have good private information and I will get others locally aware of the yhf email you offered but I know some will only share in person.
WTKTT said, “Do you have the ability to create an actual WEBSITE that can contain
HTML pages ( clickable links, images, etc. )?”
And I say, I don’t know what Sitta has in mind, but if it comes down to doing what WTKTT said, that is something I am pretty good at and I would be willing and able to help with that aspect of it, if that turns out to be the plan.
WOW…this is really a big day for me, WTKTT said .Do you have the ability to create an actual WEBSITE that can contains HTML pages ( clickable links, images, etc. )?” and I said…OH HELL YES!
I never thought I might have the actually have the ability to OUTSHINE WTKTT AND MARTI in ANY technical wizardry…stuff. Not that this is a contest.
FYI – I can’t write code, but the rest of it…yes.
Gary…
What ( if any ) are the bandwidth limitations at the server where you would be hosting the site?
Hmmm you got me on that one but I do all of my websites through Yahoo Small Business
https://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
and they say this. I always use the Advanced Plan which is the middle and I have never come close to exceeding what allowed but they do offer a Premier Plan that allows for unlimited data transfer, if that’s your question.
Advanced plan Ideal for business sites
Data transfer 5000 GB/month
Site pages Unlimited
I need to stick with Yahoo because I am super good with their tool and nothing else, but I think they are great. And if it goes this way, part of my offer includes to pop for the first year fees. And then we can talk about it after that…if that day ever comes.
A website there like anywhere would have to have a controller (passwords etc.) but I could set that up so that it is Sitta with me having access to do the work and anyone else that Sitta names could also have access if there is an alternative web site developer out there.
I mean…Yahoo has been great since they are a big dog. I have worked with them for years and there has never been any kind of a problem with any hacking or anything else. They run I tight ship over there in India.
should be “a tight ship”
And their pricing is competitive for what you get. After it is built, it would all fit on a small thumb drive and could be uploaded to a different server if someone wanted to do that.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 11, 2015 at 7:43 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Advanced plan Ideal for business sites
>>
>> Data transfer 5000 GB/month
That would probably do it. That’s a LOT.
With something like this… it isn’t even so much the actual ‘visits’ to the site you have to plan for… it’s all the back and forth and uploading/downloading to create/maintain the site itself that starts to run up the bandwidth meter.
>> Site pages Unlimited
Also good.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> A website there like anywhere would have to have
>> a controller (passwords etc.) but I could set that
>> up so that it is Sitta with me having access to do
>> the work and anyone else that Sitta names
>> could also have access if there is an alternative
>> web site developer out there.
Since this is basically Sitta’s idea/thread… we need to hear from him what he was really envisioning.
Something tells me he wants to be the ‘owner’ of this and not be ‘borrowing’ someone else’s web hosting site.
Hear from “her.” Although aren’t all of us really gender neutral in our quest for the truth?
For example…I don’t know if you are a him…or a her. But does it really matter? We are all God’s children.
Although I think you said exactly what I said, except you re-arranged the words to make it sound like you were correcting me. Do you do this stuff on purpose?
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 11, 2015 at 8:34 pm
>> Gary Olson…
>>
>> For example…I don’t know if you are
>> a him…or a her. But does it really matter?
No, it doesn’t… but FWIW I am a him. If you are ever ‘referring to me… you can just his ‘he’ or ‘him’ and not ‘he/her’ ‘him/her’. Saves keystrokes.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 11, 2015 at 8:36 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Although I think you said exactly
>> what I said, except you re-arranged
>> the words to make it sound like you
>> were correcting me. Do you do this
>> stuff on purpose?
Sorry… you lost me.
Exactly what PARAGRAPH or SENTENCE up above are you talking about?
Scratch the request for a PARAGRAPH reference above. I think you clarified below what you’re complaining about now where you didn’t know whether to call me a ‘Dick’ or ‘that other thing’.
For future reference… you can save keystrokes and just use ‘Dick’.
WTKTT said “Scratch the request for a PARAGRAPH reference above. I think you clarified below what you’re complaining about now where you didn’t know whether to call me a ‘Dick’ or ‘that other thing’
For future reference… you can save keystrokes and just use ‘Dick’.”
And I say. “Thanks for the tip (no pun intended)!”
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 11, 2015 at 8:32 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Hear from “her.”
Whoops. Brain fart. Apologies to Sitta.
Yes. I knew that… I just forgot it for a moment.
That’s OK…don’t beat yourself up. We all make mistakes, we are just not used to you admitting them…that’s all.
I mean…I did say it would be Sitta’s web site except I would pay for it and build it. In any case…I have to have access to it to do the work. Now if Sitta wants to pay for it but still give me access to it, that will work as well.
You Dick…or maybe that other…thingy if you are a woman.
I mean…”we have to work on your people skills ” (Men In Black).
Fer cryin’ out loud… YES… you said that… but that wasn’t the point I was making.
Very generous of you to offer… but Sitta might STILL not want to be using someone ELSE’S hosting service.
She might already have her own capabilities/preference(s) here for whatever this is she is really wanting to do.
OK..OK..OK..a thousand apologies! I am here to serve.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 11, 2015 at 8:46 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> OK..OK..OK..a thousand apologies!
That’s OK…don’t beat yourself up. We all make mistakes. ( Is there an echo in here? ).
This little ‘exchange’ actually brings up a good ‘planning point’ for whatever this is that Sitta is thinking about doing.
Whatever it is… there is still going to have be some kind ‘discussion mechanism’ to accommodate even little bullshit exchanges like this one.
Little ‘bullshit’ exchanges are NECESSARY and, when discussing something as complicated as Yarnell, are often the only way to get the “cows into the barn”…
…but that doesn’t mean the PUBLIC needs to see ALL of the consternation that goes into arriving at something resembling a FACTUAL account.
So somehow… as information is posted/updated onto whatever it is that Sitta envisions… there still has to be a way for someone to ‘contribute’ and say things like…
“That’s not the way it was… and here is why I think you are wrong… (details)”
OR the simpler version…
“You Dick ( or that other thing )… you are full of shit ( hopefully with details why )”.
Even now… we could try and publish a MASTER TIMELINE and there will be a LOT of disagreement that will probably take more ‘bullshit exchanges’ to try and really ‘get it right’.
So depending on what Sitta is really envisioning here… there needs to be something like a ‘contributor’s section’ that can handle all the continuing exchanges and discussions… and it needs to be a PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE area ( like this forum ) so that anyone who has BETTER information about something being ‘published’ can help post comments and help us continue to ‘get it right’.
Actually, correction for above.
I said…
>> …there still has to be a way for someone
>> to ‘contribute’ and say things like…
>>
>> “That’s not the way it was… and here is
>> why I think you are wrong… (details)”
My HOPE would be that people who are ‘in the know’ would be able to post about things and there would be no THINK about it.
Hopefully someone would still be able to ‘comment’ on the ongoing fact assemblage and say things like…
“That’s not the way it was… and here is
why I KNOW it’s wrong… (details)”
Actually…I think one reason the public comes here is to be voyeurs and watch (read) our exchanges…kind of like looking at a car wreck as you pass it on the highway. You know you shouldn’t look hoping to see a mess…but you just can’t help yourself.
I would hate to anyone deprived of that guilty pleasure. But as you so diplomatically pointed out, this is Sitta’s idea and I think she should make that call.
I actually think this IM thread should remain as the court of record for all of those exchanges so that IM retains ownership of this process because as Sitta pointed out, she is not trying to supplant this thread, just organize the material on it.
I think she is talking about making a kind of bulletin board/filing system so that people can look things up without spending years doing it.
For example, critical or important photos (I think the thousands of them should stay on Drop Box because that is HUGE filing cabinet) could be placed there with links just as videos could be embedded in the website just like I already do, the videos would stay on YouTube but then the html code is embedded in the website and they play there using YouTube huge bandwidth through the magic of technology.
I know that someone wrote recently about looking up the RAWS data, that could be posted as could the closest fuel model, weather reports from that day, and or links on where to find that stuff.
Actually, it almost could be endless…maybe someone would be interested in authoring a white paper on a particular aspect of the weather that day for example that could be posted with a link or accessed through menu’s, and the SAIR etc. could be loaded there so as to be all in one place etc.
But probably everybody needs to brainstorm and run stuff through Sitta since I think she already has a model of what she wants to do and believe me, if a web site is not part of that, it will be just fine with me, I just couldn’t miss the chance to shine in front of WTKTT.
I have been trying for two years now to get someone to notice my fantastic web sites and then WTKTT say’s…”Gee, if we only had someone who knew how to build web sties, we would be in luck!”
That is twice now I have been misquoted, I let it go the first time when WTKTT said, I said, “You Dick ( or that other thing )”
I believe the technical term and the word I used is “thingy”, not as you so crudely put it…”thing.”
This could actually all be done ( totally free and for the world to see ) on Wikipedia.
The EXISTING Wikipedia page for “The Yarnell Hill Fire” is an absolute JOKE.
I’m talking about ANOTHER Wikipedia page that might be called…
“The Yarnell Hill Fire, and what REALLY happened”.
Anyone can sign up to be a ‘contributor’… and he top level ‘narrative’ ( the only thing most people would want to read ) can be almost totally comprised of hyperlinks to other pages that explain ALL the details that support the statement or conslusion… and the references section could be the same…
…but I don’t know if that’s what Sitta was ‘envisioning’… or not.
That’s why I asked the question way up above.
It’s time to hear more about what Sitta is really asking for.
WordPress is pretty good
https://wordpress.com/learn-more/?v=site
Would need to look through capabilities on security/access though. There’s free and paid levels..
Allows posts and replies etc…
(I wish I had the time to dedicate to this that a lot of you have.)
Well OTIS…it is a sweet life, everyday is a Saturday.
The only problem I have is that I no longer earn annual leave or get to take extra days off for the holidays or get paid for working them. And the real bitch…I can never call in sick anymore. If I get sick, I have to do it on my own time and I NEVER earn ANY overtime…thanks Obama!
So don’t ever let anyone tell you retirement is all fun and games…us retirees have our own problems to deal with. And don’t even get me started on the fees to join AARP! Although I do get discounts when I go to the theaters, so…
Sitta.
I am TOTALLY supportive of you doing this!! I have felt no small amount of despair that all the work we have is scattered up and down through 16 and a half chapters of almost impossible-to-follow threads.
Sorry for not responding sooner, but I’ve been working on moving, plus dealing with and contemplating the Daily Kos radical upgrade; but I HAVE been thinking about it ever since your first post about this.
What I have is I don’t know how many thousands of photos and videos in a LIghtroom database, which are hierarchically keyworded up the wazoo, so that I could compare them in every which way but Sunday.
Two challenges with that.
First, I have no idea how to transfer that data-base to anybody else. It’s built into my Lightroom catalog.
Second. The keywording needs to be pretty seriously edited. There’s lots of stuff that is not quite accurate and needs to be changed (i.e. ala WTKTT’s and my long heated conversation about the trucks a ways downstream). There’s a lot of stuff I just walked away from early last spring when I was just sick and tired of doing it.
HOWEVER.
I would MUCH RATHER work it over and figure out how to pass it off to you than have it sitting relatively worthlessly on my computer.
But it will take time, and I’ll have to do it in bits and pieces.
The way I would transfer it, I think, would be to send the keyworded photos to you in some way shape or manner.
The other thing I have, and it’s not much, are a bunch of rich text format Text Edit files that I worked out some of my timelines on. They’re pretty sparse, and might require some re-working and finishing.
Everything else is just in my head. That’s why I”ve kept saying stuff like “WTKTT I KNOW you have vastly superior timelines than I do, so could you help me with such and such?”
I really don’t want our now almost two and a half years worth of work dying and buried here in 17 chapters of chaos.
So yeah, let’s do it!!!
And thank you for stepping up to the plate.
Namaste.
More on the Arrow Head hotshots Shake and bake Tent—-
You made a big mistake and you have no control over your well being. once you are in your shake and bake tent
Every body sees god in their shake and bake tent.
You failed if you put your self in that position.
Hope you found it Gary– it is about the Arrow Head Hot Shots surviving the Shake and bake tent
I cant pull it up here. You could spend all day watching some of those videos.
Found it.
Arrowhead Hotshots – Surviving The Shake & Bake Tent
“Uploaded on Feb 17, 2009
Fire Fighters in Sequoia National Park have to deal with extreme situations when dealing with wildfires. The last thing they want to encounter is having to use a shake and bake tent, which is a foil tent that you cover yourself with as the fire runs over you.”
https://youtu.be/QuimX5rlZlY
“… since the mid-1970’s, fire shelters have saved hundreds of lives and prevented hundreds of serious burn injuries.” NWCG Fire Shelter training video (2013)
______________________________________________________
Yeah, we know all that, however, ‘Knowing, recognizing, and applying the 10 and 18, and mitigating any Watchout Situations are responsible for saving tens of thousands of WFF lives every single year!’ WFF
‘… Entrapment avoidance must be our primary emphasis. …’
Jerry Williams, former Director of Fire and Aviation Mgmt., USDA Forest Service, WO
‘If you deploy a fire shelter, someone has messed up.’ WFF
‘The fire signals to you what it’s going to do, you and your lookout and your scouts just need to pay attention.’ WFF
Regarding Structure Protection: ‘A house is a tree with a door; it’s just fuel.’ WFF
ALL these WFF on these recent 2015 wildfires that deployed fire shelters, got burned, or got killed were NOT following the basic WFF RULES. Yes, it’s really THAT simple.
Found it, great video, thanks.
**
** TWISP UPDATE
**
** DOZER, DNR CREW AND ENGINE 642 SENT UP TO RESCUE THE
** ONES DEPLOYING IN THE DRIVEWAY?
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m confused about something, and maybe my confusion is just in my head,
>> or is the result of how it’s been reported.
>>
>> Regarding the guys with the dozer. Are they the same ones that there were
>> the reports of being in that driveway/garage? Or are they somebody else?
Marti…
Notice in the last posting with lat/long points and that ‘excerpt’ from the Methow
Valley Facebook thread real-time radio scanner update that an interesting scenario
seems to be indicated.
There is evidence there that the DNR crew, the dozer, AND Engine 642 were sent up
Woods Canyon road on some kind of RESCUE mission for whoever those firefighters
were that were ALREADY “deploying in someone’s driveway” up there on Woods
Canyon Road.
Here is a ‘condensed’ version of that radio scanner traffic from that Facebook thread
covering the time if the accident…
——————————————————————————–
|03:07|002| FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
|03:09|002| MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
|03:11|002| CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
|03:12|002| DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
|03:13|002| AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
|03:14|028| saw a big dozer fly by about 15-20 minutes ago
|03:15|002| ELBOW COULEE TWISP RIVER ROAD AERO METHOW CALLED FOR ENTRAPMENT
|03:20|034| BIG BIG PLANE ON THE WAY!!!
|03:31|058| scanner frequency 159.3150.
|03:44|058| I’m listening, but haven’t been posting. I’ll post on this thread. Sounds like they had another injury.
|03:36|017| Just saw a big plane overhead heading up TWR.
|03:41|017| just flew over my house heading east.
|03:40|061| Huge jet just went over twisp town.
——————————————————————————–
So first we get THIS ( at 3:07 PM )…
|03:07|002| FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
Then ( about FIVE MINUTES LATER ) we get this…
|03:12|002| DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
So… does ‘DOZERS AND CREWS’ mean just Cutter Rains and his dozer and
the two other DNR employees… or does ‘CREWS’ also mean Engine 642
was only NOW being dispatched to go UP Woods Canyon Road to try to
help whoever those FFs were that were ‘Hunkering down in a DRIVEWAY’?
There was also an emergency VLAT drop ‘in progress’ at the same time
the radio scanner had traffic saying “DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY”
So all of this really raises the question(s)…
1. How many damn firefighters were really UP ‘Woods Canyon Road’ and ( as you asked ),
were they the same DNR people that were burned or was there ANOTHER crew up there?
2. Is it possible that Engine 642 was up there first… and was coming back DOWN… and
got run off the road by the DOZER which was now headed UP Woods Canyon Road?
What is the real TIMING for ALL of this?
Remains to be seen… but the situation on Woods Canyon Road that led to the deaths
could actually be far more involved than anyone realizes at this moment.
And based on what Gayle C. Clemens said at 3:14 PM…
|03:14|028| saw a big dozer fly by about 15-20 minutes ago
It means she saw that ‘dozer’ go by at about 3:00 PM.
Only SEVEN minutes later ( at 3:07 PM ) is when that report came over the scanner
about FFs already being ‘trapped’ in a driveway up there on Woods Canyon Road,
and “DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY”
Very confusing to make any assumptions. Dozer Operator would be by himself in a Lowboy the crews could mean any thing. STL Dozer and Trainee would have been in at least 1 truck or could have been seperiate.
I would say the Engine was a totally seperiate incident.
Most likely the DNR responders would have been on the Scene first as they would have responded first the FS engine would have arrived some what later based on location and response time from a Forest station. But that is all a lot of speculation.
I do know in The Summer many Dozers are under IA contract and stationed with Dozer Bosses. This may very well have been one that was automatically dispatched.
Normally a Dozer would unload in a fairly large parking area not go up a small dirt road.
So was the Dozer already unloaded and building line when the Burn Over occurred????
On the Fire but in a different location????
All Consistent with a lot of confusion. Who is where?
Having a Map of the Different burn over spots and the Fatalities location would help.
I just do not see a Dozer Lowboy being on that small road with no known turnaround.
It also sounds like the Dozer was Already working building line when they were burned over.
Need a lot more info at this point.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 10, 2015 at 8:47 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Dozer Operator would be by himself in a Lowboy
Gayle C. Clemens said she saw a dozer going by her place ( quickly ) at around 3:00 PM. from the exact direction that Cutter Rains would have been coming from if that was him she saw passing her house.
Seven minutes later would come the radio scanner reports of firefighters being trapped in a driveway up on Woods Canyon Road.
Seven minutes is NOT enough time for the dozer that Gayle C. Clemens said she saw to have made it all the way to Woods Canyon Road, unloaded, and then traveled all the way up Woods Canyon Road.
So that would indicate that the dozer might not have even been sent UP Woods Canyon Road until AFTER the first reports that some ( still unknown? ) group of firefighters were trapped in someone’s driveway up there on Woods Canyon Road.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> STL Dozer and Trainee would have been in at least 1 truck or
>> could have been seperiate.
Exactly. In addition to the mysteries about how many MEN/WOMEN were actually ‘up there’… how many VEHICLES were up there? We still don’t know.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I would say the Engine was a totally seperiate incident.
Yes… and I’ll bet if that engine hadn’t left the road we would have never heard about any of this. People would still have been burned that day and gone to hospital ( and released )… but we might not have heard about any of it.
So it was definitely the ‘crash incident’ and the resulting deaths that put this one ‘on the map’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Most likely the DNR responders would have been on the Scene first
>> as they would have responded first the FS engine would have arrived
>> some what later based on location and response time from a Forest
>> station. But that is all a lot of speculation.
That Methow Valley Facebook Thread that was posting scanner traffic in real time since the moment the fire was first reported ( circa 12:30 PM ) seems to indicate the Okanogan Foresty FS Engine 642 arrived BEFORE the DNR people… but it’s hard to tell for sure from just that radio scanner traffic.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Normally a Dozer would unload in a fairly large parking area
>> not go up a small dirt road.
>> So was the Dozer already unloaded and building line when the
>> Burn Over occurred????
>> On the Fire but in a different location????
>> I just do not see a Dozer Lowboy being on that small road with
>> no known turnaround.
If you look at ‘Woods Canyon Road’ via Google Maps… there really is no question that there is NO WAY a ‘loboy trailer’ with a dozer on it could have made it up those hairpin ‘switchbacks’ there when first climbing up Woods Canyon Road.
So it’s really pretty safe to say that the dozer HAD to have been ‘unloaded’ down there on the Twisp River Road itself.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It also sounds like the Dozer was Already working building line
>> when they were burned over.
Well… actually… if that ‘dozer’ that Gayle C. Clemens reported seeing headed into Twisp ( in a hurry ) at 3:00 PM really was Cutter Rains coming WEST from his home on State Route 20 ( as he would have that day )… then there really was no TIME for him ( Cutter Rains, anyway ) to have been all the way up Woolds Canyon Road by the time the radio scanner was reporting FFs trapped in driveways up there.
Those reports started showing up on the scanner just 7 ( SEVEN ) minutes after Gayle C. Clemens reported that dozer headed INTO Twisp.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Need a lot more info at this point.
Yep. That’s for sure.
The radio-scanner thread really does seem to indicate some kind of situation where SOME group of FFs ( who? ) got themselves trapped in a driveway up there on Woods Canyon Road… called in their emergency… and now we have both CREWS and a DOZER being sent UP THERE to try and help them… and we also now have an emergency VLAT drop trying to ‘help them’ as well.
So if it was the DNR Dozer and crew being sent up to help them who are the ones who got the non-fatal burns… and it was Engine 642 also being sent up to help them that ended up with the 3 deaths and the one horrible burn injury ( Daniel Lyons )…
…then who the hell was it that was ‘trapped in the driveway’ up there and maybe the reason they were being sent up there in the first place?
There is STILL definite confusion about how many FFs were really ‘UP THERE’ on Woods Canyon Road.
Even when Sheriff Frank Rogers first confirmed he deaths in a phone call with the media ( from the scene of the accident itself ) he also confirmed that at least 3 or 4 others had been ‘burned’… but there COULD be more. He said “that’s all they’ve TOLD us”… like he wasn’t even in charge of finding out what happened and the Forestry people were already the ones handling the scene and ‘feeding’ him ( the actual Sheriff ) information.
http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/Sheriff-Frank-Rogers-confirms-deaths-of-firefighters-near-Twisp/34814662
Sheriff Frank Rogers ( on the phone )…
————————————————————-
Where they were at was active fire. We do know 3 or 4…
…it COULD have been even MORE… we just know 3 or 4… that WE
were TOLD did receive.. ya know… burns… and then we know
of the 3 confirmed deaths because we’re on scene now.
————————————————————-
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 7, 2015 at 7:05 pm
Marti… this is from down below. I am still working on a ‘longer’ answer but
you asked for some coordinates and so here they are…
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Since you’ve been scouring this fairly closely, writing about it, and thus
>> “imagining” it more than I have. I really haven’t had the time, but I have
>> been following what you’ve been writing, and I appreciate that you’ve been
>> doing it.
>>
>> I’m confused about something, and maybe my confusion is just in my head,
>> or is the result of how it’s been reported.
>>
>> Regarding the guys with the dozer. Are they the same ones that there were
>> the reports of being in that driveway/garage? Or are they somebody else?
Good question.
At this point… we don’t know.
The actual CORONER said in his own public statements that he was under the
impression there were SEVEN firefighters that survived in addition to the THREE
that he had to perform the autopsies on.
If he was including Daniel Lyon ( the only survivor of the four in Engine 642 ) as
one of those SEVEN survivors… then that still leaves SIX survivors.
Only THREE others have been mentioned by anyone else and those were
the 2 DNR employees ( A DOZB boss and a SOZB trainee… and DNR
contractor and bulldozer operator Cutter Rains ).
So who knows.
There have also been reports in the media from unnamed sources saying that
there was ANOTHER ‘Engine’ up there… and that (quote) “one engine made it out
of there safely and the other did not”.
There is no doubt that SOME FFs were, in fact, ‘hunkered down in a driveway’ at
some point. This was reported verbatim as being heard over the scanner on that
Methow Valley Facebook thread.
So that MIGHT have been the 2 DNR employees and the 1 DNR contractor… but
there is ( so far ) no confirmation on any of this.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I haven’t mapped this. Do you know exactly how far the dozer was from the engine?
The reports are that the dozer was working up there by the ‘last residence on Woods
Canyon Road’. There are actually TWO ‘residences’ up there at the north end of
Woods Canyon Road that would match that description… and they were BOTH
almost exactly 412 yards north of where Engine 642 crashed.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’m really having a hard time creating a picture of this in my head.
If you punch the lat/longs down below into Google Earth… things might become
clearer… but there is still a lot that isn’t known ( yet ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> If you have any coordinates for these various relevant locations , I’d appreciate them.
>> It really helped me to map out the fire in California. I think in maps.
See below.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And thanks for parsing out the timing. It really is weird.
Yes, it is… especially for the DOZER itself. See the section below that pinpoints
The ‘Gayle C. Clemens’ residence. Gayle posted in real time on that crucial Methow
Valley Facebook thread that she saw a DOZER go by her house at approximately
3:00 PM. She lives right there on State route 20 just south of Twisp. That is the
exact route that Cutter Rains would have been taking to get to Twisp with his
bulldozer.
If Gayle actually saw Cutter Rains and his dozer heading into Twisp at 3:00 PM,
that leaves barely enough time for Cutter to have reached Woods Canyon Road,
unloaded the dozer, and then gotten it all the way to the end of Woods Canyon
Road in time for the ‘deployments’ to be taking place up there.
Almost like Cutter Rains had his ORDERS about what to do before he even
ARRIVED there at Woods Canyon Road.
So yea… very strange ‘timing’ going on here that needs to be sorted out.
** SOME RELEVANT TWISP FIRE COORDINATES
** DECIMAL LATITUDE / LONGITUDE
The exact location of the Thirty-Mile Fire memorial, 23 miles
north of the town of Winthrop, WA…
48.800633, -120.042719
The center of the town of Winthrop, WA…
48.472418, -120.178299
The center of the town of Twisp, WA… at the exact point where
the Twisp River Road intersects with State Route 20,
7.82 miles south of Winthrop, WA…
48.365125, -120.122482
The exact point where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the
Twisp River Road, 5.65 miles west of the center of the town of Twisp,
and 29.9 miles south of the Thirty-Mile Fire memorial location…
48.380789, -120.242629
The center of the roof of the house with the address ’37 Woods Canyon Road’,
which is the address of the first 911 call that reported the fire circa 12:30 PM.
This house is only 157 yards northwest of the crash site, which is on property
that belongs to that address of ’37 Woods Canyon Road’…
48.383554, -120.244057
The point where Engine 642 left the RIGHT side of Woods Canyon Road
as it was headed DOWN the road. It only went about 40-50 feet down the
embankment where it came to rest upright and was then ‘burned over’…
48.382373, -120.243216
** THE ‘FURTHEST RESIDENCES’ UP WOODS CANYON ROAD.
There are actually TWO residences there up at the very (north) END of
Woods Canyon Road, and they are both equidistant from the crash site.
BOTH of these residences were about 412 yards north ( road distance, including
curves ) of the place where Engine 642 left Woods Canyon Road.
The first last (farthest) west-house on the north end of Woods Canyon Road…
48.385042, -120.244430
The second last (farthest) east-house on the north end of Woods Canyon Road…
48.384987, -120.243267
Kenneth Duncan’s residence there on the Twisp River Road, just 144 yards
east of where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the Twisp River Road…
48.381000, -120.240875
** GAYLE C. CLEMENS
Gayle saw a ‘dozer’ go by her house just south of Twisp ( and headed INTO Twisp )
at about 3:00 PM. She posted this in real time on that Methow Valley Facebook thread.
028 = Gayle C Clemens
Here is what Gayle said…
|03:14|028| saw a big dozer fly by about 15-20 minutes ago
And here is the CONTEXT in which she said it…
Notice that if she saw that ‘dozer’ go by at about 3:00 PM… then only SEVEN minutes
later ( at 3:07 PM ) is when that report came over the scanner about FFs already
being ‘trapped’ in a driveway up there on Woods Canyon Road.
——————————————————————————–
|03:07|002| FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
|03:08|049| Praying….
|03:09|028| wrap them in your prayers, keep them safe!
|03:19|016| Prayers
|03:07|009| Jesus please keep them safe!
|03:09|008| Praying.
|03:09|002| MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
|03:11|002| CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
|03:12|050| Omg pray pray pray!!
|03:12|002| DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
|03:13|016| Prayers
|03:13|016| My daughter is out
|03:13|002| AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
|03:14|004| Hurry
|03:14|041| Praying for everyone.
|03:14|028| saw a big dozer fly by about 15-20 minutes ago
|03:15|002| ELBOW COULEE TWISP RIVER ROAD AERO METHOW CALLED FOR ENTRAPMENT
|03:20|034| BIG BIG PLANE ON THE WAY!!!
|03:24|034| Don’t know where it was heading. Only view from overhead Winthrop.
|03:29|054| just saw the big plane coming through!
|03:31|004| Yes
|03:31|057| Its a big jet flying over yaya
|03:31|058| scanner frequency 159.3150.
|03:40|059| Ed, Are you hearing updates? Melody had to leave and Elize has her hands very full!!
|03:44|058| I’m listening, but haven’t been posting. I’ll post on this thread. Sounds like they had another injury.
|03:36|017| Just saw a big plane overhead heading up TWR.
|03:41|017| just flew over my house heading east.
|03:40|061| Huge jet just went over twisp town.
——————————————————————————–
The center of the Gayle C. Clemens’ residence on State Route 20, just
1.3 miles ( 2,290 yards ) southeast of the center of the town of Twisp…
48.356877, -120.100234
** THE RONALD RACE VIDEO SHOWING TWO HELICOPTERS FIGHTING
** THE WOODS CANYON ROAD FIRE BEFORE WIND CHANGE…
The exact location of the video taken prior to the wind change showing
TWO helicopters dipping from the Twisp River and dropping on the fire
at the foot of Woods Canyon Road. This video was shot only 232 yards east
of the point where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the Twisp
River Road. This is the video that was taken by Ronald Race and posted
to his public Facebook page at 6:20 PM on the evening of August 19, 2015…
h t t p s ://www.facebook.com/ronald.race.1/videos/vb.100002004273159/904031909673610/?type=2&theater
48.380321, -120.239788
** THE BEN WILMOT VIDEO SHOWING THE EMERGENCY VLAT DROP
** UP ON WOODS CANYON ROAD…
The exact location of the video taken circa 3:30 PM that filmed the emergency VLAT
drop up on Woods Canyon Road. This is the ‘Ben Wilmot’ video that he posted to his
public Facebook page the evening of August 19, 2015. Ben Wilmot is Ronald Race’s nephew.
h t t p s ://www.facebook.com/ben.wilmot.376/videos/o.944925525573021/1624578841157011/?type=2&theater
48.379709, -120.230291
** THE Q13 FOX NEWS VIDEO
Tom Yazwinski of Q13 FOX NEWS and his camerman visited the Woods Canyon
Road area 48 hours after the fatalities and published a video report.
Q13 FOX NEWS
Article Title: New details emerge about incident in
which 3 firefighters died, 4 were injured
Posted 9:06 AM, August 21, 2015, by Associated Press and Tom Yazwinski
Updated at 09:57pm, August 21, 2015
http://q13fox.com/2015/08/21/evacuation-levels-in-twisp-tonasket-reduced-to-level-2-fires-still-rage/
The location of the Q13 video camera at the end of the video when it was
shooting looking west from where Kenneth Duncan’s driveway meets the
Twisp River Road…
48.380663, -120.240488
The location of the Q13 video camera at the spot he walked to from
Kenneth Duncan’s property to film the burned-over ‘switchbacks’ of
Woods Canyon Road…
48.381305, -120.242216
** DISTANCES
These ‘Woods Canyon Road’ distances include all the curves and the switchbacks
that are present in the road itself.
Distance from the point where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the Twisp
River Road NORTH to BOTH of the furthest residences at the north END of Woods
Canyon Road…
0.48 mile / 841 yards / 2,524 feet
Distance from the point where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the Twisp
River Road NORTH on Woods Canyon Road to the point where Engine 642
left the road…
0.24 mile / 426 yards / 1,277 feet
** BULLDOZER SPEED / TIMES…
NOTE: Average dozer speed is only in the 7 to 9 miler per hour range.
Distance from Twisp River Road, UP Woods Canyon Road, to the ‘top of the road’
by the last house on Woods Canyon Road…
0.48 mile(s) / 841 yards / 2,524 feet
At 15 mph it takes 01 minutes and 54 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 14 mph it takes 02 minutes and 02 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 13 mph it takes 02 minutes and 12 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 12 mph it takes 02 minutes and 23 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 11 mph it takes 02 minutes and 36 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 10 mph it takes 02 minutes and 52 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 09 mph it takes 03 minutes and 11 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 08 mph it takes 03 minutes and 35 seconds to travel 841 yards
At 07 mph it takes 04 minutes and 05 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 06 mph it takes 04 minutes and 46 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 05 mph it takes 05 minutes and 44 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 04 mph it takes 07 minutes and 10 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 03 mph it takes 09 minutes and 33 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 02 mph it takes 14 minutes and 20 seconds to travel 841 yards.
At 01 mph it takes 28 minutes and 40 seconds to travel 841 yards.
Copy. And thank you.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
November 9, 2015 at 1:42 pm
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 9, 2015 at 10:48 am
>> Gary said…
>>
>> I love it, cut a line and back fire it. All of it.
“All if it” ( including the fucking houses in it ).
That’s pretty much the ‘short summary’ of the exact argument Arizona Assistant State Attorney General Brock HeathCotte is making ‘as we speak’ to the appellate Judge in the Yarnell Property damage lawsuits.
He is trying to say that no Arizona Forestry employee in Yarnell from Friday through Saturday ever had any responsibility to look upon any structure or town as anything that needed protecting… and that NONE of their ’employees’ that weekend had any such thought in their minds at any time.
I don’t think the PUBLIC ( and the MEDIA ) have fully grasped the reality here.
If Arizona Forestry ever decides an entire neighborhood is ‘in the way’. or is part of an area that needs to be destroyed to contain a fire… they don’t even have to ( legally ) issue evacuations.
They can start setting your neighborhood on fire and not give one flying fuck how you feel about it.
THAT is the argument currently being made by an Arizona Assistant Attorney General.
Good luck with that, Mr. Heathcotte
And I say, Well…yes. To me, structures are just part of the fuel bed. No responsible wildland wants to back fire any fuel bed for just the hell of it.
But a good wildland firefighter will backfire ALL of the fuel bed before they risk a firefighters life for great grandma’s china cabinet and Uncle Bob’s shotgun collection.
And maybe even Uncle Bob’s hunting dogs depending on the situation, and I am a dog person. The cats…they can be left behind.
Not to mention as you have said many times, especially not for buildings materials that can be easily replaced with insurance money at Home Depot.
I will admit, I am pretty fuzzy on this whole evacuation responsibility thing. But as a former deputy sheriff, I would think that is their responsibility after consulting with whoever is managing the fire.
I don’t think wildland firefighters should be going door to door telling people to evacuate, that was never in any wildland firefighter job description that I saw. I think they should be fighting the wildfire and keeping their eye on the ball.
I think the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office are the ones who dropped the ball during the Yarnell Hill Fire. You should be scolding them.
Plus, like I have said before, there is an important element of personal responsibility at play in all of this.
I never assume ANYONE is going to be there to save me. Based on my experience, law enforcement is usually there to clean up the mess, not prevent it.
And I don’t think Mr. Heathcotte needs any luck. He has the law, precedents and common sense on his side. Plus even if he didn’t, nobody in Arizona (judges, politicians the public) is going to let the end of the roaders walk away with millions of dollars to pay them for their poor decisions in life.
Like my brother always used to say, “People don’t need my charity…they need my advice.” And he retired as a baggage handler from Alaska Airlines after 25 years and he was on his second career as an Mariner for the Alaska Marine Highway. He died a relatively wealthy man. He always said, “People need to take care of business!”
A lot of those 160 people did not spend their lives taking care of business, they spent their lives doing whatever the fuck they wanted to and they decided to worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. Except tomorrow never came until June 30, 2013. And then it was too late to take care of business.
Some others like the owners of the Boulder Springs Ranch are just opportunistic liars who are poisoning the well for many who really did suffer damages and legitimately need help.
In spite of the fact that most of those people chose (sometimes child molesters and other felons have to live in places like that where they don’t do background checks, hey…don’t shoot the messenger, those are just the facts). to live out in the boondocks at the end of the road.
“End of the roaders” is a common saying and type of person in Alaska. Someone who just drove until they reached the end of the road, literally and figuratively, and then they just stopped. They can be a real problem in Alaska and a big drain on society the minute something goes wrong in their life…BECAUSE THEY NEVER TOOK CARE OF BUSINESS ALONG THE WAY!
I spent a lot of years doing things I didn’t want to do and things other people couldn’t do just to earn the right to sit here and be judgmental.
Oh…and one more thing. Like I said before, I don’t think the public really needs to worry about wildland firefighters back firing their neighborhoods no matter hard you spin it up.
As I said before, there are practical reasons to get Mr. and Mrs. John Public the fuck out of the way. They clog up the roads and keep fire equipment from getting in…or out in hurry all because they spend too long loading up the trailer with great grandma’s china hutch and Uncle Bob’s shotgun collection.
Plus, they can be a real drain on manpower and resources when they are running around with their hair on fire. It can leave a real mess that somebody has to clean up. So s just better all around to get them the hell out of the way so firefighters can go to work and do the jobs they are paid to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz9jo5Az6Y8
You really should watch this video and then we will be able to communicate better.
I liked surviving the hake and Bake Tent—-
Is that another video in the series?
It is in the list on the right
That should have been the Shake and Bake Tent
Right on, I will go look for it.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 9, 2015 at 3:17 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Some others like the owners of the Boulder Springs Ranch are just opportunistic
>> liars who are poisoning the well for many who really did suffer damages and
>> legitimately need help.
Nice to hear you at least acknowledge that there *might* be the actual possibility that SOME of the ‘claims’ really are legitimate.
Maybe the following ‘story’ from the Yarnell Fire puts a little perspective on this… especially since it involves a FEDERAL level US Forestry employee ( Prescott National Forestry employee Jason Clawson ) who was working as a ‘contractor’ for Arizona Forestry that day dropping everything he was doing just to help someone who really did “suffer damages and legitamately needed help”.
And all of this was actually captured in a VIDEO.
In one of the 21 Aaron Hulburd VIDEO clips that always existed ( but US Forestry only admitted to having AFTER the investigations were completed )… Prescott National Forest (PNF) employee Aaron Hulburd was filming himself and fellow PNF employees Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell being actively engaged as Arizona Forestry contractors ‘assiting’ with things there on the Shrine road before, during and after the deployment.
In the clip where the deployment had already taken place and we see them there at the end of the Shrine Road still wondering what to do… we see one of the residents of Shrine Road still trying to get himself and his possessions the fuck OUT of there.
Because the actual call to evacuate had come so late… this ‘citizen’ had a dilemma.
He had TWO vehicles in his driveway that he needed to move… but only enough time to drive ONE of them out of there.
So we actually SEE and HEAR him in the VIDEO pleading with PNF employee ( and AZF contractor ) Jason Clawson to help him move the other vehicle to safety.
This is the video where US Forestry even took the time to BLUR OUT the man’s face as he was pleading with Jason Clawson for help.
Jason Clawson decided to drop what he was doing and ( contrary to what Assistant Attorney General Brock Heathcotte says was his responsibility ) decided to help this citizen ‘protect his personal property’ from the oncoming fire.
The VIDEO kept rolling as Jason Clawson ran down the man’s driveway, hopped into the other other vehicle, and drove it out the driveway and EAST on Shrine Road to safety.
My point here is that there WERE cases where, because the evacuation notices came SO LATE…. many people were caught in the same situation.
There is a LOT that people COULD have done to save a LOT more of their personal propety if they had only been given the TIME to do so.
Air Attack(s) “Rusty Warbis” and “Paul Lenmark” knew for sure that the fire was going to be going into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle… as early as NOON-THIRTY that day and even as they took their “first observation trip” around the fire.
That’s why they decided ( themselves ) to start laying that long ( expensive ) line of retardant all the way across that ‘bowl’ out there. They actually testified “No one seemed to be doing anything to protect the town and we felt like SOMEONE had to do SOMETHING”.
So it’s not all about the houses… or whether anyone had the money and the resources to make them all look like the damn Boulder Springs Ranch.
In many of the ‘claims’… It’s about losing the TIME they deserved to have to save as much of their property ( portable or irreplaceable or otherwise ) as possible.
According to ‘Arizona Forestryr’ and ‘Arizona Attorneys General’ office… when that ‘citzen’ asked AZF contractor Jason Clawson for help in that VIDEO… Jason Clawson should have simply said…
“Sorry, taxpayer, it is not my job to assist you in protecting your property. Here is Arizona Assitant State Attorney Brock Heathcotte’s phone number. You can call him and he will explain it all to you”.
By the way… that ‘taxpayer’ that AZF contractor Jason Clawson DID decide to help that day because of the bind that the failure to give timely evacuation notices caused is also the same man who Joy says later ‘disappeared’ and it has been assumed he committed suicide.
Followup…
The Aaron Hulburd VIDEO that shows AZF contractor Jason Clawson deciding to ‘help a citzen protect his personal property’ is here…
Video Title: M2U00266R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bfvu4xIbHU&feature=youtu.be
This is the one that immediately followed the Hulburd video that captured the actual deployment radio traffic.
About halfway through this video… Aaron Hulburd fixes the TIME for this video by announcing himself ( in the video ) that the time was then 1650 ( 4:50 PM ).
At +3;05 in this VIDEO is when Jason Clawson is asked to help move the man’s other vehicle to safety and Clawson agrees to do so.
SIDENOTE: The background radio traffic in these Hulburd videos around the time of deployment are simply FILLED with people communicating about ‘saving houses’ and ‘protecting structures’ ( despite what Arizona Assistant Attorney General Brock Heathcotte says they should be doing ). Gary Cordes even asks someone if there are any water tenders that have turrets, and then someone says yes, and Cordes says to get them to the intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita so they could ( quote ) “save some structures in there”.
WOW! You just threw me a real soft ball which really tells me you don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about, not because you are not really smart, because it is obvious that you are. But in addition to being really smart, you are really ignorant about a lot of things.
But as always, I am here for you.
But first let me say, that I do not have any desire to see anybody’s property burned up or anybody die because of a fire. The only thing we are disagreeing about, is whose responsibility it is to see that does not happen. So I would like to read what you think about my belief that it was the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office who dropped the ball that day.
Secondly, you are mischaracterizing what I said, you spun “legitimately need help” into “legitimate claims.” There is a big difference. I think some people legitimately need help and that can come from many places, the Salvation Army, your local church of synagogue, Go Fund Me, your family and friends, and many other sources. I am starting to sound like a fucking Reagan republican now…aren’t I? And not from the state of Arizona through a civil lawsuit because they OWE them money because they (the fire team) screwed up…big difference.
Thirdly…Jason Clawson (I think I worked with his dad for many years) should absolutely NOT have driven that vehicle ANYWHERE. Neither he nor anyone else who works for the government is certified, authorized, or trained to do that. Do you realize how much liability he assumed on behalf of the government by his reckless actions?
You know…like those feel good stories about the low paid and untrained store clerk who chases robbers out of the store and gets knifed or shot, or kills one of the robbers. Best case scenario is they do that, nothing bad happens and they just show up on the evening news as heroes and then just get fired for violating company policy.
There is a reason those policies exist. It is for the employees safety and the financial well being of the company. Individual employees DO NOT get to make policy decisions like that on the fly! I hope Jason’s supervisor gave him a stern talking to and put a write-up in his file…for his own good and protection.
Do you know how many cars in Arizona are not insured? I don’t either, but it’s a lot. Do you know what the odds are THAT man’s second car was insured…very low. What would have happened if Jason would have run over a child or an old person using a walker in the smoke, stress and confusion.
Do you have any idea what an adrenalin dump can do your bodily functions? Immediate loss of fine motor skills that are used to operate a vehicle safely because your body saves most of its blood for the major organs. You immediately experience auditory exclusion and tunnel vision. You can’t hear or see the threat on either side of you.
Your heart rate jumps through the roof, because your body needs more blood, you may urinate on yourself or shit your pants because your body is preparing itself to fight or flee in mortal combat, and a bunch of other stuff but you probably get the picture.
Would that old man have told the Sherriff’s Office, yes, it was all my fault, I asked him to drive my car out of there. Doesn’t matter. Jason and his employer are still responsible for any and all damages and claims. Here is where it gets good. Jason’s employer decides that Jason was acting outside the scope of his employment so they cut him loose, because he was acting outside the scope of his employment.
They suspend him without pay, maybe fire him…disown him to protect their best interests…they have to, it’s required. Solicitors make those decisions, it is out of the hands of the local USFS official who probably really likes Jason because he used to work with his father too and Jason is really a good hand.
But now…Jason’s life is fucked…he has to hire his own attorney which he can’t afford to do, cash out his 401K plan, pay penalties and taxes on it, the jury finds him liable, he loses his house and any money he has left, he is left owning more money than he can pay back in his lifetime even if he finds another job because they will garnish his wages. DO NOT…I REPEAT DO NOT…DRIVE ANYBODY’S FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT CAR OR LAMBORGINI BECAUSE THEY FUCKED UP! DON’T MAKE THEIR PROBLEM…YOUR PROBLEM! Any questions?
Do you have any idea how many years it took me to learn shit like that? And how much heartache I put myself through before I learned shit like that? You (wildland firefighters) don’t have to go through the same pain I did…just fucking pay attention to what I am telling you.
So…. I’m not really seeing any ‘disagreement’ ( now ) at all.
It seems you got the point of my little ‘side story captured on VIDEO’.
According to what Assistant State Attorney Brock Heathcotte is now arguing on the Yarnell property appeals case ( and with which you seem to be in complete agreement )… it was NOT THE JOB of ANY AZF EMPLOYEE OR CONTRACTOR to be helping ‘taxpayers’ protect their personal property.
So Jason Clawson was ( according to Arizona Forestry ) being ‘negligent’ by actually deciding to help that guy protect his property.
So the point I’ve been making all along here is that take that one step to the WEST… out to a ridge where an AZF Division Supervisor seems to have decided that he needed to move his resources out of the safe black to go an help ‘protect something’ that he had no responsibility even DECIDING to ‘go and protect’.
That is also automatic NEGLIGENCE for acting ‘outside the scope of your legal authority’.
I just don’t think that Arizona Forestry had ‘thought this through’ in their desperate attempt to keep those lawsuits from ever going to trial.
I still don’t think they realize they are “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” just to try and keep any witnesses from ever being called to the stand for anything related to Yarnell.
You said, “That is also automatic NEGLIGENCE for acting ‘outside the scope of your legal authority’.”
And I say, absolutely. There is no question in my mind and there hasn’t been for months now, that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were both acting outside the scope of their employment when they willfully engaged in reckless actions that they knew or should have known could result in the death of those under their command.
Manslaughter, and if they would have survived, as I have said before, I would recommend in the strongest terms to the prosecutor’s office that they should be charged accordingly if I have been in charge of the investigation..
That is why the wrongful death lawsuits were our best option and that of the family to find out the truth of what happened that day. They just took the wrong approach because none of them (at least publicly) have been able to bring themselves to a point where they are able to admit the truth to themselves and us. Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed killed their crew. And Darrell Willis and the culture of the Prescott Fire Department helped.
Gee…this sounds like exactly what I told John Dougherty in my dining room more than two years ago…fuckin’ nailed it!
I agree that the ‘wrongful death’ suits were the ones that would have put the ‘laser focus’ on the decisions that led to the entrapment and the deaths… but I also think that if even ONE of the ‘property damage’ suits ever goes to trial…. the SAME WITNESSES will be called and asked the SAME QUESTIONS that would have been asked in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
Again… I don’t think Arizona Forestry or Assistant Attorney General have fully ‘thought this through’ with the arguments they are making.
It is their OWN ARGUMENTS that will now ALLOW all those same witnesses to be called and all the same questions asked as if one of the ‘wrongful death’ suits had proceeded.
THEY are they ones that have now made ALL of the ‘decision making’ on the part of Arizona Forestry employees and contractors RELEVANT to the issue at hand in the courtroom.
Any decision making on the part of any of the Arizona Forestry ‘fire command’ ( including Division Supervisors out on a ridge ) that can be shown to be based on the desire to ‘protect Yarnell’ or ‘protect Glen Ilah’ will be just more PROOF that Arizona Forestry had, indeed, “assumed responsibility” for doing that very thing.
And that is the essence of attorney Craig Knapp’s arguments.
That once Arizona Forestry had ‘assumed responsibility’ for tha t fire AND for protecting Yarnell and Glen Ilah… they were ‘duty bound’ to carry out that responsibility in a non-negligent manner.
By the way… I believe at least ONE of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that were NOT part of that AZF ‘settlement’ deal back in late May of this year is still ‘active’..
I believe the original Marcia McKee ‘wrongful death’ suit is currently on appeal… and may find itself back on track for a trial at some time in the not-too-distant future.
Good.
All it will take is ONE court case ( wrongful death based or otherwise ) and Arizona Forestry’s worst nightmare comes true.
Witnesses will be called.
Witnesses will be asked REAL questions.
Witnesses must give REAL and TRUTHFUL answers, or witnesses go to JAIL for either perjury, contempt of court, or both.
And even if they WIN the case… the court transcripts will show the PUBLIC what really happened that weekend.
I still don’t think we are on the same wave length. Arizona Division of Forestry can assume command of the fire, but if an individual employee makes decisions outside the scope of their employment?
Based on what I know now, I would not have recommended anyone else on the fire team be charged with manslaughter…just Marsh and Steed (had they survived) because only they were acting outside the scope of their employment
As far as we know right now at least, and I don’t see that changing even if someone ordered them to move to Yarnell…then that person was acting outside the scope of THEIR employment but does not make them guilty of manslaughter nor the state responsible for their poor decisions or at least there would be separate court cases because the state could cut them loose.
This is where their manual, Standard Operating Procedures. policies, directives and training comes into play. We would need to go through all of that we a fine tooth comb. There is a lot we don’t know and of course, they like it that way.
I can lead you Gary to an eyewitness but I think John and Ted have that area covered—and I trust those men to get the details from that person—
Good, I am glad somebody is working on it.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 9, 2015 at 6:09 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I still don’t think we are on the same wave length.
Well… maybe not… but I think we would need an oscilloscope to ‘see’ the differences.
The only thing we really differ about is what the results of the appeal might be.
I am ‘hoping’ and ‘expecting’ that the appellate Judge will overturn Judge Gama’s dismissal… and you are betting on ‘business as usual’.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> Arizona Division of Forestry can assume
>> command of the fire, but if an individual
>> employee makes decisions outside the
>> scope of their employment?
…then Arizona Forestry is still responsible for those actions in their workplace.
If it was easy for an employer to just say “that was so far outside the person’s scope of employment responsibilities that we can’t possibly he held accountable for that”…
…then I will bet Lufthansa Airlines would be overjoyed right about now.
It’s not that simple to ‘cut an employee lose’ AFTER there’s been a terrible tragedy in a workplace.
Not at the appellate level, anyway.
That’s what a bona-fide TRIAL and a JURY are for.
Judge Richard Gama… and now the Appellate Judge… are NOT being asked to rule on the FACTS of any of the claims. Gama was only asked to rule on whether these 160+ plaintiffs deserved their day in court.
Gama said they did NOT deserve their day in court, but only for ‘technical’ reasons involving what the Arizona Constitution does ( or does not ) say.
Then it got kicked ‘upstairs’.
Now the Appellate Judge has to ‘chime in’… but only on the same ‘uber-technical’ and ephemeral issues of whether ANYONE is allowed to sue Arizona Forestry for ANY reason… at ANY time… no matter how much negligence has already been proven to have been present by previous investigations.
I still think this Appellate Judge is very much aware that he/she is about to make a HISTORIC decision that will be referenced as ‘precedent’ across the nation… in any State ( like Arizona ) that does NOT have “Sovereign Immunity’ codified in their own State constitutions.
So I think he/she is going to consider this very carefully.
We shall see what happens.
I never said that an agencies liability disappears because they cut an employee lose. But that does make the problems of the employee go up exponentially.
I said they have sovereign immunity unless it is something really bad, usually a violation of the constitution.
I still think this Appellate Judge is very much aware that he/she is about to make a HISTORIC decision that will be referenced as ‘precedent’ across the nation… in any State ( like Arizona ) that does NOT have “Sovereign Immunity’ codified in their own State constitutions.
And I said the Arizona State Legislature will enact a bill retroactively to fix the problem.
Look…WTKTT, those people from Yarnell are never going to get anything except a small nuisance settlement and I don’t think they will get that because there are too many of them.
This case is never going to trial, you and they are on a dead end path to no where, and I don’t even know why you are, but I know that is where you will end up.
WTKTT said,…then I will bet Lufthansa Airlines would be overjoyed right about now.”
That is a complete bullshit analogy. Lufthansa real liability came because THEY KNEW their pilot was fucking nuts and they still let him fly the plane because of some German laws about his privacy rights and not being able to use that information in adverse actions or some bullshit like that. Not because he flew the fucking plane into a mountain.
Their liability was no greater than if it would have been any other crash from legitimate pilot error except for their prior knowledge he shouldn’t have been even in the cockpit..
That dog don’t hunt…counselor.
WTKTT, your hypothesis seems to have substantial support. Indeed someone had to have called those men out of the black to go down into that canyon despide all we are led to believe. Marsh was denying the idea on his last report by phone–then later he and his cohort in crime are given the whole blame for their actions. Perhaps rightly so to a large degree considering that they were both logical enough and experienced enough to understand the risk they were putting their crew into. They certainly had good reason to say no and we know that Marsh at least once said no to the idea.
Now looking on line the Helm’s income is said to be 10 million per year. The only way you could get that kind of income is through doing some pretty important work and for what I understand that is Federal work. There has to be some very essential and expensive equipment involved in those types contracts. (This is information Joy gleaned off line and so the source can be chedked as to its veracity). Still it is well known by towns folk that there is plenty to protect at that ranch. I can see that several high officials would have that knowledge as well considering that townsfolk speak about the site as well. It speaks well toward the idea that that ranch might have been touted as “bomb proof”, yet it also s;peaks well that someone would have wanted those men down there adding to the bomb proof ability of that place.
There was absolutely nothing in Yarnell or Glen Isla that the bosses even gave a thought to. I believe that statement as well coming from the forest Dads and their legal advisor mouthpieces. However the ranch and its contents had plenty that I think someone — like the 7000 year old tree or whatever thousand it was that got the GMHS team.
I just can not see that Marsh and Steed went off on their own without plenty of encouragement–like maybe someone with big chief standing in the four star general category said get your fucking asses down there.
Let me clean that up I think it would have been only “get your asses down there or the like–but who argues with a four star. Also–a little encouragement was meant to be they did save an old tree and that I think is a wonderful thing–I wonder if they took the risk as they did to try to save the ranch. They deserved the award for saving that tree but at what cost in trying to save a ranch.
Thanks for giving the investigators ideas that are working on the case of 19 lives needlessly and carelessly lost. Accountability in this one is important — you just do not let this ordeal go considering the paint over rotton wood.
Reply…all I stated was just about anything is within reach with google
I will guarantee you that is why those young men crashed that engine and died on the Twisp Fire…an adrenaline dump.
Probably the first one they ever experienced in their lives and they were not equipped mentally to deal with it, so they didn’t get a chance to ever have a second one.
I just want to see the pendulum swing back a little bit the other way so young firefighters aren’t driving or hiking or being sent into extreme danger without thinking it through. They should always ask themselves…what if? BEFORE they commit.
They say you should never run to your death. Move forward if you must, but do it with caution and forethought.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 9, 2015 at 4:55 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I would like to read what you think about my belief that it was
>> the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office who dropped the ball that day.
I think they probably DID… but that’s what will come out in a TRIAL when all the right witnesses are called and they now get to decided whether to commit perjury or not.
If you are trying to make a case that it was TOTALLY their responsibility to even DECIDED when it was time to evacuate as well as execute on it… I think you are dead wrong there.
It may have been their job to DO the ‘evacuations’… but I believe it was Arizona Forestry’s single and distinct obligation and responsibility to tell them WHEN that should start happening.
As you suggested… firefighters aren’t policeman… but the converse is true.
Policeman are not firefighters… and when you have an agency like Arizona Forestry ‘running the show’… I think the ‘policeman’ were just completely waiting ( and trusting ) the supposed ‘fire experts’ to tell THEM when it was time to start getting everyone out.
There is even testimony in the record from IC Russ Shumate with regards to Saturday evening about him contacting YCSO to talk about ‘evacuations’. There seemed to be a moment of confusion when whoever he was talking to at YCSO seemed to think the was actively ORDERING evacuations ( right then, on Saturday night ). Shumate said he explained that he was NOT…. but he wanted to have some ‘preliminary conversations’ with YCSO in case they might need to be ordered “at any moment”.
My point there is that even just this testimony seems to establish that it was the IC’s job to determine WHEN evacuations should start… and NOT the YCSO’s job. It would appear that if Shumate HAD actually picked up the phone on Saturday night and he HAD started ordering ‘evacuations’ right then and there… that YCSO was ‘working for him’ and they would have been required to immediately start doing what he was ORDERING them to do.
And it also amazes me that we continue to talk and talk about the chaos of Sunday as if there was never any actual “Incident Commander” there in Yarnell at all that fateful day.
There was. his NAME was Roy Hall.
I agree with you, in fact I said, “But as a former deputy sheriff, I would think that is their responsibility after consulting with whoever is managing the fire.”
They try to stay 24 hours ahead here I Idaho and most other places and yes it is the Sheriffs responsibility along with the County and City Fire departments. The Fire overhead has no Jurisdiction over Private property owners nor the authority to order evacuations.
Thanks Bob!
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 9, 2015 at 6:54 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Fire overhead has no Jurisdiction over Private
>> property owners nor the authority to order
>> evacuations.
Then why did AZF contractor and SPGS1 Gary Cordes testify that he diverted into the Norton Way area for the sole purpose of notifying those people they needed to evacuate immediately?
I know you are talking about the way its SUPPOSED to be… but the public evidence record already shows that what you are saying now is NOT the ‘way it really was’ on June 30, 2013.
I believe the evidence record already shows that YCSO was just ‘deferring’ to the Arizona Forestry ( supposed ) ‘professionals’ and waiting for THEM to say WHEN evacuations were now ‘necessary’.
And I believe the evidence record also shows that the ‘fire overhead’ ( including the Air Attacks over the fire that day ) were very much convinced it was also THEIR job to make those determinations about WHEN people should start evacuating.
That’s why there needs to be a TRIAL.
Let a JURY decide the difference between the way it was all SUPPOSED to be… and the way it really WAS.
Notify and Order are two seperiate things.
Telling people they need to get out now and having a planed evacuation are two seperiate things.
Realizing people are in the vicinity of a fast moving fire headed their way and telling them to leave now is a notice of you are in grave danger.
Asking or telling people to evacuate is a official planed order carried out by Law enforcement. In most places that happens at least 12 hours in advance of the threat to property owners. Always carried out by the County Sheriff’s not Fire Fighters.
Yes a good IC would have notified the County Sheriff to start evacuations Saturday night or early Sunday Morning.
They evidently notified people to prepare for evacuation when they should have been evacuated.
Just more cluster fuck in my book.
But was it criminal intent? Living in a Wild land area or adjacent to one requires some vigilance of your own.
Along with property preparation against fire. Insurance companies will not insure you agents Wildland Fire.
Nor can you hold wildland fire fighters liable for your losses. Pure and simple it just never happens unless it was a planed burn which escaped control lines and that is a big difference from a wild Fire. Planed burns are ignited by the agency and they are responsible to maintain control.
Do you know how many cars in Arizona are not insured? I don’t either, but it’s a lot. MY REPLY: WHERE IS YOUR GEICO INSERT—YOU ARE RIGHT—MOST OF THE LOW INCOME AREAS ARE WITHOUT INSURANCE AND MANY OFF THE GRID FOLKS TOO AND ILLEGALS–THE NUMBER IS SCARY HIGH AND WHY I HAVE ALLSTATE AND WHY I HATE BEING IN ANOTHER’S VEHICLE PERIOD AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE LEGAL BEFORE ENTERING—I AM NOT PLACING MYSELF IN AN AVOIDABLE SITUATION BECAUSE I LOVE MY LIFE AND I AM NOT KNOCKING THE ONES WHO DON’T WANT INSURANCE BUT IT TAKES ONE ACCIDENT TO CHANGE ONES LIFE—ASK LOCALS HERE. I LOST TOO MANY ON HIGHWAY 89 AND 93 AS WELL—
Do you have any idea what an adrenalin dump can do your bodily functions? OH YES COMING FROM AN ADRENALINE JUNKIE GAL—I KNOW—
Your heart rate jumps through the roof, because your body needs more blood, you may urinate on yourself or shit your pants because your body is preparing itself to fight or flee in mortal combat, and a bunch of other stuff but you probably get the picture. IT IS FACTS—I HAVE HAD IT HAPPENED…
Do you know how many cars in Arizona are not insured? WAY TOO MANY GARY
I think so too.
By the way… that ‘taxpayer’ that AZF contractor Jason Clawson DID decide to help that day because of the bind that the failure to give timely evacuation notices caused is also the same man who Joy says later ‘disappeared’ and it has been assumed he committed suicide.
MARK DANIELSON-
*****I will admit, I am pretty fuzzy on this whole evacuation responsibility thing. But as a former deputy sheriff, I would think that is their responsibility after consulting with whoever is managing the fire. ***MY REPLY: I want to KNOW this answer—is it the law enforcement? the fire dept? or person in charge of fire? I really want to know legally this answer….
****I don’t think wildland firefighters should be going door to door telling people to evacuate, that was never in any wildland firefighter job description that I saw. I think they should be fighting the wildfire and keeping their eye on the ball.****MY REPLY: I do believe either law enforcement or fire dept/emt or person in charge of fire COULD delegate updated information to the community in some organized fashion because it was very wrong after helping almost 500 people what DID happen on YHF—very wrong.
*****“People need to take care of business!”—MY REPLY: yet we as a society should comprehend some lack the capabilities to TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS and for those—we should help those—may it be help them build confidence to do it on their own or help them—
A lot of those 160 people did not spend their lives taking care of business, they spent their lives doing whatever the fuck they wanted to and they decided to worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. Except tomorrow never came until June 30, 2013. And then it was too late to take care of business.—MY REPLY- “You are down right ignorant, gary with a general ASSUMPTION but you have not been in the loop right at the fire line like me and what you said was not proper to these people. A GOOD book would be me writing about the homeowners and the true story—yes some fall in YOUR category—
Some others like the owners of the Boulder Springs Ranch are just opportunistic liars who are poisoning the well for many who really did suffer damages and legitimately need help.
MY REPLY—“whoah. where are you coming off stating they are liars? and opportunist? I have met people who known that family for decades and that is downright WRONG…and when did you become the JUDGE to such views—are you generalizing that people don’t care as much? Are you trying to say this or that…because its not reality—you are speaking with such harshness NOT KNOWING THESE PEOPLE—
In spite of the fact that most of those people chose (sometimes child molesters and other felons have to live in places like that where they don’t do background checks, hey…don’t shoot the messenger, those are just the facts). to live out in the boondocks at the end of the road.—-MY REPLY: what are you implying??? or generalizing because this is not a reality human factor…
I spent a lot of years doing things I didn’t want to do and things other people couldn’t do just to earn the right to sit here and be judgmental. —-MY REPLY: it goes beyond judgmental—its down right ignorant. I am sorry to the folks who lived a happy life than got in head on collision to have another change your life that you cannot even see if its sunny out .and that you are unable to do much like Gary can like ride a atv and rant on here…and be so wrong…when that fire changed your life again…because of another’s errors and yet like your head on collision and this fire—you are not given the satisfaction of accountability…I am sorry
******They can start setting your neighborhood on fire and not give one flying fuck how you feel about it.****MY REPLY TO GARY: yet that very week there was SIGNS everywhere of a fire ban —so I am not comprehending well— if a fire began by person that person usually is accountable but are you saying there is no responsibility or accountability the other way around? They can just let it go? I really am sick to read that. Is this perception or a place I can go to documented facts versus a topic in a court room…
And I say, Well…yes. To me, structures are just part of the fuel bed. No responsible wildland wants to back fire any fuel bed for just the hell of it.
****MY REPLY: whoah. whoah. whoah. I was on the Weavers. Sunday morning early it was STILL containable if they just organized this right not chaos and WHY IS IT ROY HALL/SHUMATE HAS NOT BEEN IN THE MEDIA MUCH???–SOMEONE took that control and allowed this to get out of hand. I have heard its natural for a helicopter to hover a fire yet to me from my view I did not understand as a civilian but since been educated by one of the best firefighters why a helicopter would be in area and yes it could appear it was fanned but its a natural side effect of a hovering helicopter YET HOW COME they asked me a bunch of questions and I had one question direct to YELLOW helicopter pilot—why can’t that YELLOW helicopter reach me and educate me versus others—why can’t I directly be contacted by the person I saw in that position answer me direct…I saw a dozer making a line. I saw movement in different areas and I saw when the fire that could of been contained became a TRUE wildfire that no human should be in area….I deserve those answers…
But a good wildland firefighter will backfire ALL of the fuel bed before they risk a firefighters life for great grandma’s china cabinet and Uncle Bob’s shotgun collection.
And maybe even Uncle Bob’s hunting dogs depending on the situation, and I am a dog person. The cats…they can be left behind.MY REPLY:****This is the part I apologize to homeowners who come to this site for this calloused comment statement because I know you personally and your losses but Gary does not but he speaks of the attitude I find not proper but he does that at times…I mean I still cannot comprehend how he says I talk in riddles and I can take all the time in the world to help one comprehend me or properly assess me but the comment on pets after I knew your pets and you—I am sorry you read that from Gary—its haunting how your pet died because of the improper chaos of the YHF because people are not aware you—and you who-wheel bound and unable to even get around unless someone assists or transports you from point a to b and Gary does not know this and if I just let comment go without saying I am sorry you read such…I am sorry…Gary, there are people in this town who are truly disabled —one because of a head on collision and vehicle was so bad that its surprising person IS ALIVE…but very disabled—those folks as well as elders were not properly alerted and have no way to KNOW what the hell is going on outside if its raining or snowing or if the town is burning down—
*****If Arizona Forestry ever decides an entire neighborhood is ‘in the way’. or is part of an area that needs to be destroyed to contain a fire… they don’t even have to ( legally ) issue evacuations.******
MY REPLY:
this is hard for me to type on—Barbara Buchanan the doctor from the red cross evacuation shelter said she could not give out Dewanna’s information and Dewanna gave it to me but I disregarded her because her WHOLE discussion was just this statement above and she eyewitness these people looking at maps and having discussions on fires at the library at the college and her insight and account may mean something but at the time I measured her to be someone who just lost her life as she knew it and home in CA to imminent domain and was very deeply heavy hearted on that and I felt she was emotionally speaking but maybe I was very very wrong and so if Dewanna every reads this site—I am very sorry for my judgment but alot of me cutting you off and disregarding your contact information was because you were asking around to others about a place to crash to people who do not even know if their home burned down or if their pets died in that Yarnell fire and asking people for work so timing was all off in my humble opinion—you rubbed me wrong asking a woman in despair who did lose her home if you can stay with her (where? what house? it burned down) and your sad story of imminent domain when the woman who lost home came to me asking me to help keep you away from her—felt that was stuff you should direct JUST TO red cross not to people standing near tvs awaiting to see if the QUICK and I mean QUICK glimpses of homes burned by aerial shots because MUCH media was mainly focused to lives lost and their stories and alot who reached evacuation NEVER got notice to leave or pack up so there only hope was tv to see if their home burned…and there was alot of evidence in just those media pieces if you really take the time to July1-21 2013 and LISTEN to the loved ones of the men and the Yarnell community…If I could interview Gary Cordes and Musser and Morin…I think I have the RIGHT questions to ask—now for the author who is being rumored to be degrading the hikers; just letting you know in due time I will time stamp my whole health journey event from day one to now so the smokejumpers you spoke to can properly assess it by looking at all as each year has passed than they can see if your words had merit or not of creating disbelief in my YHF account and my health (I may make a book of the health journey as many have told me to do) …its jumbled all up on my hiking page and not easy to navigate but it use to be…but zazzle had its glitches and my page is no longer the page I made and I have not had alone time too much and if I did I have been doing yard work and getting a cat heated cabin ready for the kittens even though its obvious the Investigative Media mascots Mae West and the kittens took over my indoors and we have let them because my perimeter cameras as well as neighbors cameras show snowy white owl and fox and coyote and baby javelina in the area…the cooper hawk almost nabbed the one kitten with me present but I stopped it just in time as well as the roadrunner tried to get one kitten.
*****He is trying to say that no Arizona Forestry employee in Yarnell from Friday through Saturday ever had any responsibility to look upon any structure or town as anything that needed protecting… and that NONE of their ’employees’ that weekend had any such thought in their minds at any time.*****
MY REPLY:
Have the lawyers tried to reach us? or have lawyers tried to reach John Dougherty or Dr Ted Putnam or very select few who know the name and location and number to the person who was on a federal level served to keep quiet to what that person witnessed on the YHF that we wrote about in recent times on here. That person can shed some insight. In my humble opinion the SAIT took what facts were fact documented and not perceptions and made an objective of a no blame narrative and my concern personally is the inaccurate account on us in SAIR and as well the denial to some to the restricted to area but not to others.
When I publicly named people it was not to cyber tag them public or cause them how they feel now but I really was wanting answers. It is very odd as well because I pointed out some that I thought they would never talk to me again and I have a very dear real friendship with them today even though I called ’em out but as adults we spoke on the topics and cleared the air.
It is unfair for the public to judge and say such harshness as many have including me by publicly naming versus asking just private but why should people who did go be chastised in the public manner shown just because they were one of the ones who “could” go…let’s just pray hard that the people who could go…do a just and a great service to all fallen and all affected and are not a part to any agenda or angle and were able to go to restricted with pure heart. I apologized with sincerity for my public “pows” and “wows” and not reaching out private and using this area as a platform to freely express because it did not help the mysteries that lay before us on the YHF.
Sitta brings up an excellent idea (the timestamps on map NEEDS those cell phone records first most Sitta) and I had that detailed map in the military truck started on a HUGE map of many time stamps as well as death tolls that since I know the town more closely than say you all or Sonny and can tell you who lived where and how long and was it near retardant and are they healthy, sick or dead…but my focus is hopefully meet and interview bulldozer operator Paul Morin but seeing and speaking to this recent man who was there on the fire that my chance is too slim there but it would not be too hard for the loved ones seeking answers so that is why I always pop on here and give details for another to look into. I am serious- the core to me is the children because as they age and maybe google this fire and by chance see this website I want them to know I tried not because I was the eyewitness but because I do feel all should be doing just this; sharing that weekend as you saw it so it can be properly assessed versus just a collaborated narrative…I tried by Sonny saying take this photo and that photo that horrific weekend of terrain and fire and vehicles and so on and posted it public immediately on my hiking page on zazzle / congress_arizona* same day 6-30-13; THAT IMMEDIATE I was sharing to locals so they can make their own assessments. I tried to hike all who wanted to properly assess the fire even when I was extremely spent and drained. I tried by helping the homeowners and hearing their cries and sadness. I tried by the loved ones of the GMHS I either hiked or spent much quality behind the scenes time with knowing all the time the very person I was including in the events was behind the scenes degrading the hikers and as well this site. A site I feel expresses with much gut reaction, with much zeal and effectiveness, with much a heavy deeply sad heart, some say such disturbing words even I fall guilty to that here but I have a hard time hearing people ON THE FIRE say stuff private but won’t public…and so there IS missing elements to the YHF and that is all I can tell the people affected by the fire. Are we any closer than two years ago? If the people who speak PRIVATE; spoke up than the answer is YES.
ARE YOU NEW TO THE WEBSITE?
YOU HAVE ARRIVED TO A NON MONITORED PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL ONGOING DISCUSSIONS OF THE YARNELL HILL FIRE AS WELL AS OTHER FIRES AND THEIR SIMILARITIES SO IT IS A PLACE TO FREELY SPEAK UP AND SHARE ON ANY TOPIC BUT MAINLY TRYING TO GET CLARITY TO THE YHF.
IF YOU COME AND SHARE ON HERE WITH YOUR VIEWS WITHOUT A WAY YOU CAME TO SUCH THAN BE PREPARED TO HAVE QUESTIONS ASKED—
SOME FEEL STRONGER ABOUT CERTAIN TOPICS/PEOPLE THAN OTHERS SO DO NOT JUDGE THIS WEBSITE AS JUST A PLACE OF CONSPIRACY THEORISTS—DEFINED:
con·spir·a·cy the·o·ry
noun
noun: conspiracy theory; plural noun: conspiracy theories
a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.
I AM NOT INCLUDED IN SUCH VIEW AND I AM NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORISTS
YET I DO KNOW FACTUALLY NOT PERCEPTION THERE IS MUCH “MISSING ELEMENTS”
AND THAT SITTA BRINGING UP HIS IDEA IS VERY IMPORTANT TO THIS WEBSITE TO BREAK EACH SECTION OF THAT WEEKEND BY TIMESTAMPING EACH PART FROM GROUND TO AERIAL FROM EVERY SECTION FROM THE ICS TO FIREFIGHTERS AND AERIAL TO DISPATCHERS TO YCSO TO GENERAL PUBLIC ON THE FIRE TO VEHICLE PLACEMENTS. IT IS THE PROPER THING TO INVEST ENERGY INTO. THANK YOU SITTA.
replies from Joy to ….Gary Olson says (November 9, 2015 at 3:17 pm)
Well…that is a lot to reply to. But I will start with this. I don’t like the Helm’s. I think they are bad people. No one but a bad person would react by closing off access to that deployment site just because they like their privacy.
When a national tragedy happens a few feet from your door, involving the deaths of 19 heroes who were trying to protect your resources, you lose the option to live like it never happened and that is just the way I feel.
I don’t like what I know about Rex G. Maughan either.
Do I have the information wrong about them asking for six million dollars for damage to property that is valued at a fraction of that? If that number, or anywhere close to that number is correct, well then…the Helms are FUCKING LIARS, CON ARTISTS, SWIDNLERS, THIEVES and opportunists.
As far as child molesters and felons being a very high percentage of people who are end-of-the-roaders…that is just a fact from a life time of dealing with people like that in out of the way places in the backcountry of Arizona.
They are there. Go run them and see. Maybe you don’t know about it, and not all of them are, but a very high percentage are. Contact them in a professional setting, get their ID and run them, and you will find out.
Restriction on where they can live and background checks push them to those areas…the badlands, the outback, the back county. Call it whatever you want, that is where a lot of them end up.
You are a sweet person, but very naïve.
Thanks Joy! I’ll let you know when I get some maps up we can all label and critique.
****MY REPLY: whoah. whoah. whoah. I was on the Weavers. Sunday morning early it was STILL containable if they just organized this right not chaos and WHY IS IT ROY HALL/SHUMATE HAS NOT BEEN IN THE MEDIA MUCH???–SOMEONE took that control and allowed this to get out of hand.
Joy – I have been over this in detail several times before, but I am going to do it one more time….just for you. Please pay attention.
The Arizona State Legislature does not tax the good citizens of Arizona at a high enough rate to properly fund most, if not all state agencies. That is why Arizona always ranks so high as a tax friendly state…especially for retirees. The state markets itself that way for a specific purpose…to attract retirees to the state in DROVES. Low state taxes means low state services.
The State of Arizona has always been run by republicans. No republican administration EVER funds resource agencies to the appropriate level. That also happens to some extent in federal service. I worked for more than 30 years in resource land management. Republican administrations always meant lower budgets, more permissive policies towards ranchers, oil companies, power companies, mining companies etc. in the (ab)use of public lands.
That has always been a way of life for Arizona natural resource agencies. They have never seen a good year. It is always poverty and famine for them. State mining inspectors…hee, hee, hee. And regulatory agency in Arizona which could possibly have a negative impact on big business making a lot of money off state resources are shit out of luck. They always have been, they always will be. The culture is too firmly established in Arizona to ever change.
Put Arizona State Forestry near the top of that list. If you want money for a prison in Arizona, well, I have some really good news for you, you will be able to get all of the prisons you little heart desires. Regulators for business…no.
So…those are some ground rules. The Arizona State Legislature does not, and has never funded state forestry to fight all of the fires, all of the time. Nobody does. Even the USFS has fire monitor policies and protocols. What Shumate did was SOP…it almost always works. In fact, it has always worked before because you have lived your entire life up until now and you never gave more than a passing thought to a wildfire.
Given the resource value that was threatened, his budget, where the fire was at, what it was doing, what potential it had, resources available and a bunch of other considerations that I don’t even know about and or don’t want to take more time to list, Shumate made the best decision he could have under the circumstances.
It has worked just fine, thousands…tens of thousands of time and you don’t know anything about it. That’s what they do. That’s how they fight fire. That’s all they can do. And that has NOT changed since the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Spend as little money as possible. Avoid catastrophic losses to VALUABLE natural resources. Guess what? That land is more valuable now that all that nasty unproductive, sunlight blocking, water sucking brush has been burned off. Whoever has the cattle lease for that area is ecstatic. It’s got the best grass it has had since cowboys started overgrazing it 150 years ago. That is why all of that brush is even there. That land has been abused and mismanaged for many, many, many decades. Take as much as you can TODAY out of the land, don’t worry about the next generation. The cowboys would have started that fire themselves if they could have gotten away with it. They do it all of the time. Native Americans used to do it before European settlers ever entered the area.
But a bunch of things went wrong with the Yarnell Hill Fire this year. There has probably been a Yarnell Hill Fire every year since recorded time began. It wasn’t just one thing, it was a series of things, a row of dominoes that fell one after the other. If any one of them would not have fallen, the fire would not have happened like it did. It was a PERFECT STORM of circumstances and just plain bad luck. Out of 1o,000 times of doing the same thing, maybe a 100,000 times, maybe more, if that particular set of circumstances and random events did not happen, the fire would not have happened and the good newss that it will probably never happen again in that area. Other than the Rodeo Chediski Fire, can you name another wildfire in the history of Arizona without Goggling it? Could you have named that one?
There was no conspiracy, there was no incompetence, there is no bad guy to blame for the start or progression of that fire. Any talk (of which there has been plenty on this thread) to the contrary is CRAZY talk…OK? I have been Arizona State Forestry biggest and loudest critic from day one. And that’s what I say. That’s how it is. Period.
I said. “The cats…they can be left behind”
Now Joy…you know that was just one of my little jokes. I would never leave a cat behind if I could help it. Our pets are like our children…except better. And that includes cats, parakeets, guinea pigs and so on and so forth.
In spite of the fact that most of those people chose (sometimes child molesters and other felons have to live in places like that where they don’t do background checks, hey…don’t shoot the messenger, those are just the facts). to live out in the boondocks at the end of the road.—-MY REPLY: what are you implying??? or generalizing because this is not a reality human factor…
Joy you are mischaracterizing what I said. I said MOST of those 160 people CHOSE to live like they did because they spent a lifetime making choices that put them where they were at when the Yarnell Hill Fire burned.
I said “sometimes” people HAVE to live in those areas because credit checks, background checks and restrictions on where they can live have a tendency to push convicted child molesters, and felons to those end-of- the-road areas because you can often rent without a credit or background check in places that are borderline being off the grid.
Joy…I didn’t say all, or most, or many, or quite a few of the people who live in the out of the way places are child molesters or convicts. I said sometimes child molesters and convicted cons HAVE to live in those areas because they can’t find a place that will rent to them in Prescott…for example. That is just the way it works. Don’t shoot the messenger. So unlike the people who chose to live there, they had to live there.
I didn’t make these rules up. Just like I know if you are looking for a meth lab, you should look at the out of the way places as well at the end of the road. That doesn’t mean I am saying most, or all, or many, or some of the good people who live in Yarnell are running meth labs. But you do not find meth labs up in Prescott Heights. or out at the Country Club. That is just the way it is.
And to those who lost property, I say file and insurance claim. They don’t have insurance you might say. Really? You OWN property and you can’t afford to insure it. Do you know what I would do if I owned property and I didn’t have enough money to insure it? I would get rid of that property because I couldn’t stand the loss if something happened to it or somebody can over and fell down on my step and broke their leg. No liability insurance? You shouldn’t own property. You should rent. I rent my house. It’s not a bad way to live. Of course it is in a subdivision in the middle of a city, but that is how I have always lived because I had to get to fucking work! You know…where the jobs are.
I don’t want to live in a city. I don’t want to buy insurance. I want to live my life on my terms. I don’t want to trim my brush or trees back. Guess what? There is a Homeowners Association who writes me nasty letters through the rental agency we use if they don’t like how I am watering my fucking grass. I don’t want to live where there is a homeowners association. I don’t want anyone to tell me how I have to maintain my property. I want to keep fucking goats and chickens in my yard because I like fresh goat milk and I want to collect my own fresh eggs. I can’t afford to pay somebody to cut my grass, trim my trees, cut back my brush, clean up the combustible all around my property. I can’ either…so I rent. I don’t pay home owners insurance, that’s the fucking PROBLEM of the man who owns this house. But I do have renters insurance in case my shit gets stolen or this house burns down. Buy renters insurance. If you insure your care through Allstate…they provide renters insurance for like $10.00 a month, or it’s free or something because we bundle a home and auto policy. I can’t get insurance thorough Allstate because my credit is too bad. Why is your credit so bad? I can’t bundle my car and renters insurance because I can’t afford to insure my car. Live in town and ride the fucking bus. that is what you do if you can’t afford to insure your car. I don’t like to ride the bus. I don’t want to live where there are bus routes. I don’t want to live where I can walk to the store and work. I have to live where I a have to drive 2 hours one way to get to a minimum wage job because I didn’t like going to school so I dropped out of high school. I can’t insure my car because they suspended my license because I was on my third DWI or DUI.
Yes, Joy…I know there are ten thousand sob stories in Yarnell. I will put my sob story up against almost anybody’s, I made my own reality in spite of my sob story. Nobody ever gave a fuck about me. And now, yes, I have earned the right to sit here and be judgmental. Although I am sure there are some of those 160 people who need help. Oh…by the way, why don’t they just submit an insurance claim to Allstate. That is what I would do if I were them. Whoops…full circle
Oh…and one more thing. My little brother who died a few years ago from cancer couldn’t finish high school either. He suffered from extreme ADD way before anybody got a free pass and medications for ADD.
They were just labeled as a “bad” kid who couldn’t learn. He finally struggled long enough to earn a GED and get a job crawling on his hands and knees deep into the belly’s of cargo planes lifting heavy boxes (you know…a lot of 70 pound boxes of frozen salmon) from a half crotch and he died a wealthy man because he worked every hour of overtime that was ever put in front of him and he saved his money and invested smart and he was very thrifty. But his truck was insured just like his paid off condo was insured. He lived there not because he like living in a condo, but he could walk to work at the airport. I know he died as a wealthy man, he left me most of it.
And he was raised without a father as poor white trash by a crazy mother who didn’t love him. I will put his fucking sob story up against ANY you can find in Yarnell.
Don’t sob story ME!
Gary, I’m confused. You provide us with brilliant and inspiring articles about breaking institutional deadlock and thoughtless bureaucratic machinery. Then you slam us back to earth with truths about fighting the system via the system. There must be many contradictory currents in that cranium of yours.
I want to provide a signal boost to this blog you recommended below:
http://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-blog-about-military-matters/68973251-the-morality-of-obeying-stupid-orders
It’s a long read, and I’m more accepting of mistakes and failures than John Reed is, but there’s some brilliance here. A bracing read for anyone who’s still fighting those battles.
By the way, Gary, though there are excellent medical facilities and physicians there, I agree with everything else you said about Charmington. 😉
Thanks to everyone who’s given updates on Twisp.
I have some ideas for putting together timelines, maps, or photo catalogs of YHF items. Perhaps someone is already doing this. I’ve been wanting to construct things that would make it easier for me to jump in and out of the YHF research. Due to the ease at which people’s lives are being destroyed by internet stalking and trolling (gamergate, anyone?), I’d rather not do all of this on a public forum. Also, cataloging timelines, maps, and visuals of vehicles, people, and places is not particularly easy with our forum tools. If some of you are interested in working privately with me, reply to this message, and I’ll start setting up an email account and work space.
To be clear, I’m not interested in judging what the families do in response to this incident. I don’t want to argue about the memorial site. The resulting health issues for Yarnell residents are extremely important, but not within my proposed scope. I want to focus on synthesizing data about the Yarnell incident itself. I want to develop products for researchers, students, and wffs. I’m interested in pulling together the knowledge of this group and organizing the clues in a way that can be shared and understood, so the next concerned people don’t have to start from scratch, alone. I want to do this before the inevitabilities of life scatter the main contributors to this blog.
Okay, I just created an email account
sitta
[dot]
lookout
[at]
gmail
[dot]
com
thank you Sitta—[people reading this page who do not type on here—I encourage you to reach out to Sitta with your stories and time stamps]
Thanks very much, Joy! If anyone wants to contribute in an anonymous or confidential way, please create a dummy email account to contact me. I will not break anyone’s confidentiality, but I also want people to protect themselves.
SITTA! How nice to have you back! I have to go finish Marti off first and then I will get back to you. First things…first.
And my wife worked in ICU (along with some other units, like Behavioral Health) as an RN at the hospital in Farmington and she would wholeheartedly disagree with everything you just said about the medical care there. Sounds to me like you got lucky!
Let me put it to you this way, my wife has worked full time at 15 hospitals (she is on her 16th) around the southwest and in Alaska following my tortured career path for more than 30 years in addition to working part time or on-call at 8 other hospitals and Farmington was without a doubt, the very worst hospital she ever worked at…period.
Please be careful up there.
Of course…I guess there is another possibility. Maybe things have gotten better at the San Juan Regional Medical Center in the last 13 years? I do have a tendency to lose track of the decades.
Sitta said, “There must be many contradictory currents in that cranium of yours.”
And I say, “Yes…it is very hard to be me.”
Sitta said, “To be clear, I’m not interested in judging what the families do in response to this incident. I don’t want to argue about the memorial site. The resulting health issues for Yarnell residents are extremely important, but not within my proposed scope.”
Me neither…until they told me I couldn’t go to visit the deployment site to do research for the book I will never finish…and that really hurt! So…I did the only reasonable thing a grown up would do, I lashed out.
Speaking of really hard projects…just listening to you describe what you intend to do has given me a headache, I need to go lay down for awhile. I would like to help you, but I think I would be like a monkey trying to have carnal knowledge with a football. So…I don’t think I would be of much help, but I do want to wish you the best of luck with your endeavor.
Re: Being refused to the site one Gary Olsen, hero firefighter who dedicated much of his life to the firefighting world.
Thanks to your insights we have gained much in exposing the nefarious works of a political coverup of true events. I am sorry to hear the insult you were given of being refused access to the site considering that this is the Great American System of truth seeking that has been hindered by the Great White Fathers of wise coverups. However, do not take the refusal of your expertise as an investigator and right as an American citizen to visit those public lands. You see, Dr. Ted Putnam was also refused but we had the honor to legally hike him more than once so that he could see the actual path, locations and actions took that brought on the deaths of 19 young men. Now we both know Dr. Putnam is a 15 year Smoke Jumping veteran and also with his Doctorate in Psychology is also known as one of the nation’s leading fire fighting investigators. If these people that determine who goes to the site were at all honest in their intentions then you would expect them to be jumping all around to get Dr. Putnam’s expert view of why those men died and what might be done to keep such disasters from continuing in the wild land fire fighting profession.
Now, if you decide to go a legal hike up there, I am much slower than before but I and likely Joy would be more than happy to offer our services to take you legally near enough that you would be satisfied for your first hand look at things that you want to see and know for your book. Most of the two track is legal walking except for a small portion and even that is questionably illegal and if challenged in court would have be be legal. WTKTT would verify that for sure.
Now I hope we get a new law that every firefighter from here out gets an equal statue and it has to be planted where the man died. So we would have a few in skyscrapers and in houses and around the land. Should not every fire fighter not have equal recognition and whether right or wrong in his actions? I think this precedent has to be followed to the letter from here forward without deviation or else this whole BS thing dropped.
Thanks for your answers–it amuses me that people that have covered up, taken accolades for a real screw up job can continue on trying to keep the men who have been on the front lines of firefighting from seeing what acctually occurred that day of June 30, 2013. Let their consciences reek of their malpractices.
Sitta does not want to involve in the memorial part–but perhaps he will agree that if we are going to use state tax monies to memorialize the 19 then we ought to do this memorializtion thing for every firefighter from now on. We need to set aside lands at every spot a wild land firefighter is killed and erect these statues so that all in America are treated equally in that profession.
You are very wise, Sonny, and I’m glad you remind us of our responsibility to the citizens of Yarnell and the taxpayers.
Having been given the privilege and profound experience of hiking to the site of the South Canyon fire (Storm King), the wff in me wants others to be able to pay their respects and *feel* that landscape. I’d read books and seen videos and pictures about that incident, but I didn’t *get it* on a deep, instinctive level until I visited the site. It finally made sense, and hit me somewhere in the amygdala, as no lesson in class can. The markers there are fairly simple, beautiful, and personal. Seeing the mementos, some from friends and family members, innumerable others from fire fighters, renewed my courage and commitment to safety. It was one of those rare experiences that has changed me, fundamentally.
Now, given that, you can understand my desire to have the YHF deployment site, lunch site, “hunker down” site, and trails open to visitors. However, I also get where a family member of the nineteen would never want to see a reporter or a camera again. I get how they’d want to approach this tragedy carefully, at the pace their hearts can handle, without witnesses or questions. And I really can’t put myself in their shoes, because the worst thing to ever happen to me didn’t come with media, lawsuits, recriminations, cover ups, and online forums.
I’m not even going to address things like tax payer ownership, citizen privacy, or feasibility because they seem morally inconsequential to me compared to the two points above. I ask that others here try to remember there is more than one reason to have a memorial, and that family members have legitimate concerns about having to engage with strangers. I don’t believe the public is necessarily an enemy, either. From what I observed on Storm King, it was treated with great respect and dignity. I wish I could ask the friends and family members of those lost in 1994 how they feel about the land being public, and what they would want for that site. I doubt they had any choice in the matter.
I have responded to two emails today and I spent enough time on them I want to increase my mileage by posting them here…just in case anybody has forgotten what I have said many times now for two years.
Response to Email Number 1
Yes, I doubt the state of Arizona is capable of putting together a coherent strategy for anything and on top of that, I think this is new ground for everybody involved since nothing like this has ever happened before…anywhere.
Secondly, one of the things I have harped on the most has been sovereign immunity which comes from my experience with the federal government, as I said many times, no one can hold them responsible for anything except in the very worst cases involving “outrageous” violations of the constitution and then only when one executive branch wants to teach another one, or one department (Justice for example) wants to punish an agency (DEA for example) a lesson for those violations. And then they give themselves a good spanking.
And I think states are mini-me federal governments with the same sovereign immunity, so I don’t think it is “highly likely” Knapp will win his appeal or ever prevail in court. The only “official” reason federal firefighters (and I assume it is the same with state firefighters) want to stop a wildfire on private land is the assumption that if they don’t, it will eventually burn onto federal land. So by stopping it on private land they are in effect protecting federal land, not private property.
But…WTKTT (nor anyone else on the thread) has ever agreed with me on those points.
Response to Email Number 2
Yes, there definitely seems to be a great deal of naivety and idealism with a left wing tilt on our little experiment in social media which normally suits me because I am so anti fat cat destroying the middle class to enrich themselves. Can you imagine how impossible it would be to run our local, county, state and federal governments if every time a civil servant screwed up the government they work for could be taken to court in a lawsuit?
Government would cease to function and that is why the courts give them so much leeway and so many free passes and it all does go right back to this country’s laws being based on English law and that was based on the assumption the Crown could do no wrong.
Now individuals who work for the government can be sued and the government can cut them loose to protect itself, but individuals don’t have deep pockets, so that is a waste of time and so far, the state hasn’t even hinted at separating the fire team from the Arizona State Division of Forestry.
Now, I do think that if there were only a couple (or a few of them) they could get some kind of nuisance settlement, but with 160 asking for hundreds (?) of millions of dollars and the precedent that would set for future cases, I just don’t see it happening and I never have.
The state of Arizona doesn’t have that kind of chump change laying around in rainy day funds. They would have to close the schools and I don’t think the Arizona Supreme Court is ever going to allow that to happen, if it gets appealed that far.
And maybe nobody has disagreed with me per say except for WTKTT, but they (primarily Marti, but others as well, Joy and Sonny) have AGREED vehemently with WTKTT, which I think is the same thing as disagreeing with me.
Nobody wants to hear they don’t pay taxes to fund ANY agency to provide fire service protection for private property, they pay a small amount of taxes to pay for fire protection for state and federal land.
If people want fire protection for their private land, they need to change the law through their state legislature and start paying a lot more taxes but all of the people who live in subdivisions in cities are going to have a problem paying for fire protection service for end-of-the-roaders to live out in the boondocks. In the meantime, if they want fire protection for their private land, as I have said before, there are private companies in business to provide that very service…for a price.
Once again, the only reason wildland firefighters fight fire on private property is to stop it there because if they don’t, it will eventually threaten state and federal lands. And there is only one official reason why wildland fire evacuate people from a wildfire zone, and that is they don’t want private citizens clogging up the roads at the last minute trying to flee the flames because they waited too long to leave and dealing with citizens on fire takes too much time and resources away from getting down to what they do get paid for, stopping the wildfire from destroying valuable state and federal resources.
Now, they can think that is as unfair as they want to, but they need to change the law BEFORE it effects them personally next time. There are three really simple reasons why the lawsuits from Yarnell are never going to go anywhere and as I have said before, if their attorneys didn’t explain everything I have said to them before they hired them and filed their lawsuits, then it is negligence on the part of those attorneys.
Which is why I am sure they did explain it to them but the ambulance chasing – slip and fall attorneys and their opportunistic clients like the Helms (six million dollars… kiss our collective taxpaying asses) is because…what the hell, through enough shit against the wall…some of it may stick and they may get something?
And yes, sometimes WTKTT exceeds his technical mandate by spinning too much pie in the sky sometimes, we have to take the bad with the good, which is the same thing I tell people about me.
I will tell you something for a fact that will probably shock the shit out of most of you. The United States Congress CAN and HAS passed laws RETORACTIVELY to protect the federal government from excessive liability they didn’t see coming in time to do it BEFORE they incurred the liability… that is unfair and SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) and I don’t doubt the Arizona State Legislature could do something similar if they need to.
If no one has told any of you dreamers this before now…you need to hear it from me, right here and right now. LIFE ISN’T FAIR!
There are three very good reasons why the civil lawsuits will never succeed.
1. Sovereign Immunity.
2. Sovereign Immunity.
3. Sovereign Immunity.
I have a long history of people in my life thinking I am smart and I know what I am talking about…right up to the point that I say something they don’t like and agree with and then I suddenly become as dumb as a box of fucking rocks and a bag of fucking hammers put together.
Now…WTKTT…quit spinning this shit up and getting these people’s hopes up. You aren’t helping them.
I am very sorry so many people lost so much in the Yarnell Hill Fire and so many people have died because of it…but there isn’t enough money in the state of Arizona (and the federal government denied their request to declare it a federal disaster…thanks Obama) to make it all okay again…so stop asking. That is why “The Families” only got a $50,000.00 and a bunch of vague worthless promises nuisance settlement. They didn’t have a case.
Oh…and one more thing. I can sense how many doubters there are still out there, so let me give you a very personal example of exactly what I am talking about.
For many, many years the federal agencies who hire federal agents (1811 – Special Agents) on behalf of the people of the United States treated all special agents as exempt employees instead of just supervisors and managers rather than treating worker bees as non-exempt employees.
This meant that federal agencies could work those worker bee employees unlimited overtime…without paying them any overtime. You have heard of Wal-Mart and McDonald’s doing that…right? Asking worker bee employees to “volunteer” to stay late or come in on their day off to do catch up work without paying them…right?
That of course is a clear violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act. The Drug Enforcement Administration was the worst at it keeping worker bees up on a wire 24/7 and paying them a straight 8 hour shift, 40 hour work week. But all other agencies did the same thing, USCS, BATF&E, La Migra (INS), FBI, and the BLM among a few dozen others.
Well finally…a few thousand federal agents hired a smart ass Washington D.C. law firm for $25.00 each to represent them in a class action lawsuit to stop the practice and sue for back pay that had to be documented.
Federal law had a six year statute of limitations on civil lawsuits that had been reaffirmed by decades of case law. When the dust settled, the BLM owed me well over $120,000. And the federal government owed several thousand other special agents a similar amount for six years of documented back pay and the federal agencies stopped using worker bee special agents as exempt employees.
That sounded like it was going to be a pretty sweet deal for a $25.00 investment. I had already bought a speed boat, a Class A RV and a crock pot full of cocaine and then I got the bad news. The staff who work for our U.S. Congressional Representatives ran the numbers and decided that the number was too fuckin’ big to pay out without causing them some budget heartburn.
So they fixed it. They simply passed a law changing the previous six year statute of limitations to be a two year statute of limitations…RETROACTIVELY!
My cut ended up being about $20,000 minus state and federal taxes instead of well over $120,000. Problem solved. They figured they could handle that much out of the budget without undue heartburn or they could have eliminated all of it. They repossessed the speedboat and the RV but I got to keep the cocaine.
So…I did not need this example to convince me life wasn’t fair, but it reinforced that notion for me. Any questions? They can do anything they want to and there isn’t a damn thing you can do about it (usually).
And just for the record…I think that citizens want fire protection for their private property, they need to be willing to have their taxes raised accordingly to increase the wildland fire fighting agencies budgets to allow for the extra equipment and employees to provide that protection.
Hell Bells…wildland firefighters don’t care where the OATS come from, just as long as they get paid for risking their lives to protect your little slice of heaven on a bun, they love to fight fire. Or do you think they should risk their lives 24/7 for free…just for YOU?
Damn it. Forgot to add something just in case you math whizzes question my numbers…why is 1/3 of well over $120,000 only about $20,000?
Well…it’s because they took the first two years rather than the last two years. During the first two years I was a much lower grade employee than the last two years, so the numbers were a lot smaller.
The same thing happened to everybody else. Pretty smart…huh?
The bottom line is this. None of this money grows on trees. Money spent by public agencies only come from one place…out of your pockets. The Helms aren’t asking the state of Arizona to pay they them six million dollars, they are asking YOU to pay them six million dollars.
And I will bet you a dollar to a dog turd that the Helms are like most of the residents of Yarnell and Glen Isla, they think the FUCKING government should mind their own business and stay out of their lives…right up to the point they need the FUCKING government to do something for THEM personally. And then they cry like a bunch of fucking babies who can’t suckle at the teets they hate so much!
Fuck all of YOU PEOPLE (and you know who your are)! I need a massage!
Point of Clarification; the smart ass law firm from Washington D.C, didn’t just get the twenty five bucks times several thousand, they took 25% of everything they got for everybody. So the twenty grand was minus state and federal taxes AND 25 % for the lawyers. Which was still worth it because the federal government quit violating the fucking FLSA just like Wal-Mart and McDonald’s stopped doing.
Look…Craig Knapp is a certified Grade A shit bag. He is no better than the run-of-the-mill ambulance chaser, he just has a nicer office to spout his lies from. He would tell the people of Yarnell, “Now I have to officially tell you that I can’t promise you anything, case law and the law itself is not on our side, but I know how to talk to these bastards, sign here and I will go to work for you and do my best to see that justice is served (hee, hee, hee).
All the while there is one of those thought bubbles over his head and he is thinking, “Sign here you stupid white trash end-of-the-road hillbillies and I will fuck with the state with worthless bullshit motions while I clog their fucking courts up for so long they will finally get tired of me and I will get a nuisance settlement….lets see? 33 and 1/3 percent of a bunch of money for you losers and I can buy a speed boat and a Class A motor home and another crock pot full of coke. Plus a bunch of other shit.
Actually, since there is probably a clause in the contract those 160 land/home owners signed that says Mr. Shit Bag gets 45% of the take if the case goes to court, and since the case had gone to court, he probably hopes he gets 45% of some money times 160.
The math adds up for him. But not for the rest of you.
Just look what “The Families” of some of “The Nineteen” did to some of the other families of the 19. They filed worthless lawsuits they couldn’t win, and then THEY got bigger settlements ($50,000 instead of the $25,000 all of the families were supposed to get originally…right?)
The state didn’t generate more money, they took money from some of the families (the squeaky wheels) and gave it to other the families who had too much dignity to file a worthless lawsuit for some MORE MONEY plus the benefits and 14 million they had already got.
Some of the squeaky wheel families then tried to put lipstick on a pig and take it on a date by announcing they were starting multiple wildland firefighter foundations who have grandiose and vague goals of improving wildland firefighter safety. What a joke!
In the meantime, Mrs. Andrew Ashcraft buys some kind of motorhome, takes her four kids and hits the road to see America and tell the world about wildland firefighter safety with her first stop being in Farmington New Mexico to visit the con artist and darling of Gabbert’s one man blog…NEILL.
NEILL…who got a guided tour of “The Holy of the Holiest…The Deployment Site” while that self serving shit bag…Chief Ben Palm told me I wasn’t worthy to visit the Mount! Or in this case…the little gully that is going to wash away when the monsoons come next year.
Give me a fucking break…this charade of Kubuki Theatre stopped being about anything meaningful and worthy a long time ago.
And I still haven’t gotten a response from the bought and paid for political hack…Karen Fann yet, even though she had been quick on the keyboard and responded to my previous emails within minutes when she thought I was as stupid as a box of rocks and a bag of hammers put together.
She founds out that my bark is as bad as my…other bark. WOOF! WOOF! WOOF!.
I mean maybe…just maybe…Debra and Jerry should worry less about whether me and the other godless people get to visit the Yarnell Garden of Gethsemane (or whatever, I am a little rusty on my Bible quotes, but I am like Donald Trump, the Bible is my favorite book, I just normally think it is too personal to talk about) and where their grandchildren are tonight on the road with a mother who does not sound all that stable to me (been there…experienced that, or at least a poor version of that).
I am taking an informal survey…just who the fuck out there in cyber space thinks what Mrs. Andrew Ashcraft is doing is a good idea? Has Debra and Jerry ever heard of an intervention for God’s sake?
How about you NEILL…do you think it is a good fucking idea? Did you try to talk some sense into her before she left that shithole I lived in for two years and spent a God awful amount of my time in before I actually transferred there…Farmington New Mexico, the meth, and crack cocaine (those roustabout have to have something to keep them up all day and night on those very deadly and freezing cold drill rigs) capitol of the Land of Enchantment?
You mean the Land of Entrapment?
HEE, HEE, HEE!
perfectly said Sitta
Whoops…reverse this, but I think you get the idea, “The state didn’t generate more money, they took money from some of the families (the squeaky wheels) and gave it to other the families who had too much dignity to file a worthless lawsuit for some MORE MONEY plus the benefits and 14 million they had already got.”
Gary you forgot to add—-
Treat Urban Interface as just part of the fuel bed and fight the Fire.
Until States and Counties pass laws to require home owners to meet standards that protect their property from WLF.
——-It is all just Part of the fuel bead—-
Build line control the fire.
I love it, cut a line and back fire it. All of it.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
November 9, 2015 at 10:48 am
>> Gary said…
>>
>> I love it, cut a line and back fire it. All of it.
“All if it” ( including the fucking houses in it ).
That’s pretty much the ‘short summary’ of the exact argument Arizona Assistant State Attorney General Brock HeathCotte is making ‘as we speak’ to the appellate Judge in the Yarnell Property damage lawsuits.
He is trying to say that no Arizona Forestry employee in Yarnell from Friday through Saturday ever had any responsibility to look upon any structure or town as anything that needed protecting… and that NONE of their ’employees’ that weekend had any such thought in their minds at any time.
I don’t think the PUBLIC ( and the MEDIA ) have fully grasped the reality here.
If Arizona Forestry ever decides an entire neighborhood is ‘in the way’. or is part of an area that needs to be destroyed to contain a fire… they don’t even have to ( legally ) issue evacuations.
They can start setting your neighborhood on fire and not give one flying fuck how you feel about it.
THAT is the argument currently being made by an Arizona Assistant Attorney General.
Good luck with that, Mr. Heathcotte.
Well…yes. To me, structures are just part of the fuel bed. No responsible wildland wants to back fire any fuel bed for just the hell of it.
But a good wildland firefighter will backfire ALL of the fuel bed before they risk a firefighters life for great grandma’s china cabinet and Uncle Bob’s shotgun collection.
And maybe even Uncle Bob’s hunting dogs depending on the situation, and I am a dog person. The cats…they can be left behind.
Not to mention as you have said many times, especially not for buildings materials that can be easily replaced with insurance money at Home Depot.
I will admit, I am pretty fuzzy on this whole evacuation responsibility thing. But as a former deputy sheriff, I would think that is their responsibility after consulting with whoever is managing the fire.
I don’t think wildland firefighters should be going door to door telling people to evacuate, that was never in any wildland firefighter job description that I saw. I think they should be fighting the wildfire and keeping their eye on the ball.
I think the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office are the ones who dropped the ball during the Yarnell Hill Fire. You should be scolding them.
Plus, like I have said before, there is an important element of personal responsibility at play in all of this.
I never assume ANYONE is going to be there to save me. Based on my experience, law enforcement is usually there to clean up the mess, not prevent it.
And I don’t think Mr. Heathcotte needs any luck. He has the law, precedents and common sense on his side. Plus even if he didn’t, nobody in Arizona (judges, politicians the public) is going to let the end of the roaders walk away with millions of dollars to pay them for their poor decisions in life.
Like my brother always used to say, “People don’t need my charity…they need my advice.” And he retired as a baggage handler from Alaska Airlines after 25 years and he was on his second career as an Mariner for the Alaska Marine Highway. He died a relatively wealthy man. He always said, “People need to take care of business!”
A lot of those 160 people did not spend their lives taking care of business, they spent their lives doing whatever the fuck they wanted to and they decided to worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. Except tomorrow never came until June 30, 2013. And then it was too late to take care of business.
Some others like the owners of the Boulder Springs Ranch are just opportunistic liars who are poisoning the well for many who really did suffer damages and legitimately need help.
In spite of the fact that most of those people chose (sometimes child molesters and other felons have to live in places like that where they don’t do background checks, hey…don’t shoot the messenger, those are just the facts). to live out in the boondocks at the end of the road.
“End of the roaders” is a common saying and type of person in Alaska. Someone who just drove until they reached the end of the road, literally and figuratively, and then they just stopped. They can be a real problem in Alaska and a big drain on society the minute something goes wrong in their life…BECAUSE THEY NEVER TOOK CARE OF BUSINESS ALONG THE WAY!
I spent a lot of years doing things I didn’t want to do and things other people couldn’t do just to earn the right to sit here and be judgmental.
****In the meantime, Mrs. Andrew Ashcraft buys some kind of motorhome, takes her four kids and hits the road to see America and tell the world about wildland firefighter safety with her first stop being in Farmington New Mexico to visit the con artist and darling of Gabbert’s one man blog…NEILL.
my reply: what kind of shit is this gary? every person heals in different ways and different times and this is harsh…disturbingly harsh…and what is this “con artist” comment in relation to???? just because she is able to be out there and you cannot—why chastise? be happy she can and in that hope we get better clarity some day—and I am shocked what you write on even Gabbert and Andrew’s sweetheart…how could you…why? Seems it does not enhance the mystery of the YHF—it’s ugly talk—do you stand by and really believe these comments or are you trying to get someone to speak up and its your way to do it because it floors me I spoke in frustration after many countless hours of helping locals to have my misunderstanding escalate to where it did and now my name sits in public records yet you have said much harsher stuff than I ever have and yet I am sorry you feel such way and for the people who walked away from Gary because of what he writes on here that knew him a long time…that means you never were meant for the long haul to know this fine man. Gary is very much separated to the average mundane of this human race but even with the calloused comments made about me and others I stand firm by his side and I feel his book will be very successful—yes, the book that will never be published because he writes like he does…and publishers say NO THANK YOU but in the end he will have a book but it will be about the battles he came upon over time not just the YHF—that is just a short insert that parallels other areas to his life.
I am sorry you feel this way but I know you are not alone in your view because that is how I ended up getting frustrated on certain topics in the first place…Sonny believes anyone should be able to be out there and it should be used to train firefighters how not to fight a fire—
its just hard to see words that cause separation versus creating harmony and togetherness—
serving shit bag…Chief Ben Palm told me I wasn’t worthy to visit the Mount! Or in this case…the little gully that is going to wash away when the monsoons come next year.
MY REPLY: I only publicly spoke on Chief Ben Palm because of people from Prescott Valley/Dewey/Mayer, locals and local firefighters present and past…otherwise I would know zip on him…but that area does deserve a proper investigation of how he became the chief without proper posting/applying…as well as being just an EMT at time of transition—he did not get the other credentials until later—
And I still haven’t gotten a response from the bought and paid for political hack…Karen Fann yet, even though she had been quick on the keyboard and responded to my previous emails within minutes when she thought I was as stupid as a box of rocks and a bag of hammers put together
my reply:
Did you think you would????
I’m not disagreeing with you on a whole bunch of things that you are saying here.
And, to be honest, all things considered, I may be more interested in buying popcorn than advocating one possibility as a probability over another one, in regards to Yarnell.
You wrote:
“The only “official” reason federal firefighters (and I assume it is the same with state firefighters) want to stop a wildfire on private land is the assumption that if they don’t, it will eventually burn onto federal land. So by stopping it on private land they are in effect protecting federal land, not private property.”
I’m not sure exactly where the Slide Fire started, but it was not on Federal land, but close to it. The Sedona Fire Department was the Initial Attack, but it was soon taken over by a Forest Service firefighter who became the first IC because it jumped onto Forest Service land.
Then Tony Sciacca’s Type One Incident Management team took control of the fire. They had crews protecting structures in Sedona, while they also pursued a strategy of herding the fire up through the side canyons and onto the plateau and “building a bigger box” there from off the roads around that box and letting the fire burn 20 thousand acres of Ponderosa Pines on Forest Service land to contain the fire, in order to minimize the risk to the firefighters.
To me, that seems like allowing a whole bunch of FS land to burn in order to, at least relatively speaking, protect structures in Sedona and Kachina Village.
I just don’t see where my understanding of this jives with what you are saying.
Am I missing something here?
Namaste.
And again:
“The only “official” reason federal firefighters (and I assume it is the same with state firefighters) want to stop a wildfire on private land is the assumption that if they don’t, it will eventually burn onto federal land. So by stopping it on private land they are in effect protecting federal land, not private property.”
That’s not even making sense to me regarding Yarnell.
While something like that may have entered the equation at the very first, I’m having a really hard time seeing it being the case as the fire progressed after Saturday.
What state land was Arizona Department of Forestry, via their Type 2 Incident Management Team, spending multiple 10s of thousands of dollars protecting on Sunday?
Well…once again Marti. I said the “official” reason. We all know what’s going on in the wildland firefighting community. They got in over their heads starting back in the early 80’s with this whole ICS thing when they got on the long and very slippery slope.
And now the chickens have come home to roost with the Esperanza Fire, the Yarnell Hill Fire, the Twisp Fire, the Valley Fire and a bunch of them I don’t even know about because “we” got into bed with structural firemen with ICS, Memorandums of Understanding and Mutual Aid agreements because we danced with the devil and now it is time to pay the fiddler! A stich in time saves nine and a penny for your thoughts, three, four shut the door!
I didn’t say they did it right in Yarnell or on any of these other fires, I just tried to say that I agree with Judge Gama’s decision, based on the law and precedents (case law) that’s all.
There is no question it is an unholy mess and wildland firefighters (and yes, this includes the GMIHC) are dying because of it, and they think it is OK and just the cost of doing business. The reality is the wildland firefighting community now doesn’t has lost it’s way with the Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter!
They have engine crews running around out there with wildland firefighting equipment on one side of their engine and structural fire fighting equipment on the other while they brag about it as they bury their dead.
Whoops typo, “The reality is the wildland firefighting community now has lost it’s way with the Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter!”
Well…the only big thing you are missing is that I said, “The Official” reason. Although you made what sounded like a very sound assessment of the tactics and strategy of Tony Sciacca’s fire team and you probably even fooled some of the people reading this blog.
I consider myself to be a retired wildland firefighter who was living in Flagstaff and breathing all of that smoke for nights on end while having ash rain down on me while I was out in the yard during the day and I didn’t pay that much attention to what they were doing.
You said, “Then Tony Sciacca’s Type One Incident Management team took control of the fire. They had crews protecting structures in Sedona,”
And I say, “Yes, the official reason they were protecting structures in Sedona is like I said, they wanted to stop the fire before it burned through Sedona and out the other side back onto National Forest. That’s what I said they would do to protect federal lands, if they protect some houses in the meantime, so much the better.”
You said. “while they also pursued a strategy of herding the fire up through the side canyons and onto the plateau and “building a bigger box” there from off the roads around that box and letting the fire burn 20 thousand acres of Ponderosa Pines on Forest Service land to contain the fire, in order to minimize the risk to the firefighters.”
And I say, “I didn’t respond to that the first time you said it because if I responded to everything on this blog I disagree with I wouldn’t be able to take as many naps. Furthermore…I say that I don’t remember hearing on the news that the fire team was “herding” the fire anywhere. I have never seen wildland firefighters herd a wildfire. Is that kind of like herding cats…but much, much, much harder?
What I remember hearing on the news is that since they did not have mountain goats or mountain climbers (although Blue Ridge used to be a certified repelling crew?, but that would only be one crew) for wildland firefighters, they were not going to climb up or repel down those cliffs from the Mongollon Rim (and if you have not seen the cliffs I am talking about…take my word for it, you would have to be out of your fucking mind to put wildland firefighters up or down there, depending on which way you wanted them to be facing right before they were killed).
And letting a fire burn because you can’t physically get to it has nothing to do with “herding” it anywhere, it means you let it burn until it tops out on the rim where you can get to it. And none of that has anything to do with a grand fire strategy, but it does have everything to do with a practical strategy. If you can’t get to it, wait for it to come to you.
You know…you are talking to a former Coconino National Forest Hotshot who spent 6 years on the Long Valley Ranger District which used to extend from Mormon Lake all the way down to where the forest dropped off the Mongollon Rim down onto the Payson District of the Tonto National Forest, so I have fought some wildfires just like the Slide Fire, but once again, I never saw anybody herd them.
Just like WTKTT…I deeply respect your technical abilities and greatly appreciated the time you have given to this thread…but an expert wildfire strategically planner…you are not. Just like although WTKTT has stayed at more than his fair shares of Holiday Inns…but he is still not a shit bag lawyer.
But then again…neither am I, but I was fucked over by a few of them (wildfire strategically planners and shit bag attorneys) back in day. So…
Severial additional points.
Co-op Initial attack by closes forces City County State and Federal..
Agreements if it is on state and inters Federal Land one or two seperiate ICs
IA verses escaped Fire that spreads into adjacent lands.
Based on many factors the plan on how the Fire is Fought and what the terrain and objectives dictate.
Yes stopping fire from leaving Federal Land to Private or Vise versa is always an objective. In urban interface stopping the fire on Wild Land before it reaches Structures is also an Objective. And that is where the issue gets very fuzzy and the line becomes hard to determine..
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 8, 2015 at 2:47 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> There are three very good reasons why the civil lawsuits will never succeed.
>>
>> 1. Sovereign Immunity.
>> 2. Sovereign Immunity.
>> 3. Sovereign Immunity.
>>
>> Now…WTKTT…quit spinning this shit up and getting these people’s
>> hopes up. You aren’t helping them.
As I have pointed out in this ongoing discussion many times before… the concept of “Sovereign Immunity” is a FEDERAL level concept.
It does NOT automatically apply to the States in the union.
If any State in the Union wants to have the same kind of “Sovereign Immunity” for its employees that Federal level employees enjoy… then that State muse AMEND its own Constitution and specifically codify it for themselves.
Many States have… but Arizona is still NOT one of those States.
The Arizona constitution still maintains that if a sufficient amount of negligence can be proved.against any State Agency or Employee… then that State Agency or that State Employee can be sued… and the plaintiffs also have the Constitutional RIGHT to have that matter heard by a JURY and just just ‘decided’ by one single Judge.
That’s why Arizona Forestry and their lawyers ( employees in the Arizona Attorney General’s office ) have to do everything they can to prevent this case from every actually REACHING the TRIAL phase.
THEY are the ones doing the “throwing as much shit as possible against the wall and hoping something will stick”… because they HAVE to.
Even if they end up WINNING the case and proving that Arizona Forestry employees and contractors did everything they could have been done on Saturday to prevent the eventual Sunday disaster… and they end up not having to pay anyone a dime… the DAMAGE ( in their minds ) will have already been done.
In the course of WINNING that trial… witnesses will have finally been called to the stand and the PUBLIC will finally have learned as much as possible about what REALLY went down that entire weekend… soup to nuts.
That’s the ‘nightmare scenario’ that is keeping them up at night.
If the appellate Judge reverses Judge Richard Gama’s decision and the Property Damage suits are sent back down to the lower court for trial… Arizona Forestry will have no choice but to try and SETTLE with all 160+ plaintiffs BEFORE there is a trial.
If even just ONE of those 160+ plaintiffs refuses to settle… then there will still have to be a bona-fide TRIAL and all the same witnesses will still need to testify… and Arizona Forestry’s worst nightmare still comes true.
The PUBLIC will find out what REALLY happened.
Typo up above. I left the word ‘not’ out of sentence.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
“The Arizona constitution still maintains that if a sufficient amount of negligence can be proved.against any State Agency or Employee… then that State Agency or that State Employee can be sued… and the plaintiffs also have the Constitutional RIGHT to have that matter heard by a JURY and NOT just ‘decided’ by one single Judge.”
I still believe that ( WIN or LOSE )… if there was ever a case that deserved to be fully heard by a bona-fide JURY… this is it.
It can still happen. We shall see.
Well…I just don’t think the appellate judge is going to do that, and if they do, the state will appeal that. “Our” chance to get the answers for the questions we have was lost when “The Families” folded and took the nuisance settlement money and ran which was contrary to all of their earlier stated goals and objectives except they tried to put a brave face on it with that ridiculous news conference. The property owners don’t even have public opinion on their side, not to mention nothing else except a shit sack attorney.
So…I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about this until the ruling comes down. I hope you win, but unfortunately…you won’t.
A wild land fire like it or not is influenced by mother nature.
Private property Structures are in its way if the property owner dose not build and protect their property from WLF then they loose the ability to sue for damage. 100 ft. flame lengths will wipe out most homes with 40 MPH winds
again Mother Nature.
Not much different than Floods, Tornados, earthquakes if you are not insured or there is a clause about mother nature in your insurance then your not going to collect.
Urban interface is falling to Fire because there are no requirements for Home owners to protect individual property or building requirements City County or State.
It is personal responsibility or suffer the consequences
Yarnell is no different than all the other towns or structures that burned this year. In California and other places like Washington and Idaho.
I believe if the ‘property damage’ lawsuits ( or even just ONE of them ) come to TRIAL… the FOCUS of that trial will be what happened on Firday and Saturday… NOT Sunday.
Once that fire was allowed to ‘escape’ and get down into that valley… I actually don’t think there was anything anyone was able to do. “Mother Nature” was in control at that point.
In essence… the FOCUS of where the total NEGLIGENCE might have been that weekend will fall onto Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate and the decisions HE made that weekend.
There were 2 full Type 2 IA crews in the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station by 8:00 AM Saturday morning.
That’s 40 ( FORTY ) WFF firefighters who are all SUPPOSED to be able to hike to a small fire, attack it, and make sure it doesn’t ‘escape’ and become something terrible.
As late as 12:30 PM ( FOUR and a HALF hours later and after just before the worst part of the day ) Shumate had still only managed to get 6 ( SIX ) out of the 40 ( FORTY ) WFFs he had available to him since 8:00 AM up there to even begin ‘mopping up’ that fire.
So it’s that kind of decision making that is going to get the ‘laser focus’ if/when there is a trial.
Someone should have KNOWN that the “only cure was prevention” here.
If that fire came down off that ridge into those bowls… there wasn’t going to be much anyone could do ( and, as we found out, there really wasn’t. Hardly ANYTHING that was done on Sunday had any really effect at all ).
Someone should have also known that when that fire escaped on Saturday… it was ALREADY time to start ordering evacuations.
The people who have filed these damage claims could have saved a LOT more of their personal property if they had only been given the TIME to do so. That’s a valid legal argument to make and that’s all they want to do… make the arguments for ‘negligence’ to a JURY and see what THEY think.
WIN or LOSE… they have the RIGHT to do at least that.
Well, after waking up in a freezing cold house with a power outage, and going and getting breakfast, and coming back home to a house with the power restored, and turning on my computer and heading over to Daily Kos (which those of us insiders call “The Great Orange Satan”) and reading the top headline diary called “President Obama Nixes Keystone XL” and being very happy about that, I came over here to read a few threads of comments I had missed over the past couple of days.
I hadn’t totally missed the conversation about Twisp, but I had missed a few of the later comments.
It really is a jumble, isn’t it?
My question is this. Since those were USFS ffs who were killed, isn’t there supposed to be an Inspector General’s investigation, and is it possible that that could/would/should be the detour around the CRAP investigation, and that THAT investigation could/would/should be conducted in such a manner as to discover and document the TRUTH?
Or is that just another “Good Ole Boys” set-up, also?
I just don’t have enough experience or knowledge to be able to decipher the answer to that.
Thoughts?
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 6, 2015 at 12:19 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> My question is this. Since those were USFS ffs who were killed, isn’t there
>> supposed to be an Inspector General’s investigation
Yes… and see below. USFS spokesperson Cathy Dowd said in an article just published
on October 29, 2015 that this ( required ) Twisp USDA OIG investigation is ‘in progress’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> and is it possible that that could/would/should be the detour around the CRAP
>> investigation, and that THAT investigation could/would/should be conducted in
>> such a manner as to discover and document the TRUTH?
>>
>> Or is that just another “Good Ole Boys” set-up, also?
>>
>> I just don’t have enough experience or knowledge to be able to decipher
>> the answer to that.
>>
>> Thoughts?
There’s no telling.
It’s beyond ironic that this requirement to even HAVE the USDA OIG investigations were because of the 4 fatalities in the Washington State ‘Thirty Mile Fire’… which happened in 2001 not too far northeast of the site of these NEW Twisp fatalities in the same exact County ( Okanogan ).
The Cantwell-Hastings legislation ( which became Public Law 107-203 in 2002 ) was sponsored by Senator Maria Cantwell and Representative Doc Hastings as a result of those 4 fatalities the 2001 Thirtymile Fire ( in the same Okanogan County as the Twisp fatalities ).
The law requires that in the case of a fatality of a U.S. Forest Service employee ”due to wildfire entrapment or burnover, the Office of Inspector General (OIG) of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality” which would be independent of any investigation conducted by the USFS.
There have been a number of these USDA OIG investigations since 2002 and they SEEM to end up being pretty detailed… but what might come out THIS time remains to be seen.
** STATUS OF THE INVESTIGATION(S)…
There was a post down below ( circa October 29 ) that had a link to that new article reporting about how Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers is now on record saying HIS investigation is completed… and that there was “nothing that could have been done to prevent the Twisp accident or to save those men”.
It’s also the article where Sheriff Frank Rogers goes ‘on record’ as saying that the men who died were (quote) “In there trying to get people out. Protect homes.”
Sheriff Rogers is stating both of this as a FACT… but doesn’t say what makes him so sure both of those things are true.
At the bottom of that same article was a quick summary of the OTHER ‘investigations that are going on, and both the ongoing OSHA and USDA OIG investigations are mentioned.
The only investigation that the article puts any kind of ‘timeframe’ on is the FEDERAL OSHA one, which apparently might be the FIRST one to be finished and released by ( perhaps ) mid-February of next year ( 2016 ).
No timeframe was given for the completion of either the USFS or the USDA OIG investigation(s).
That article that was recently published ( on October 28, 2015 ) is here…
https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/oct/28/sheriff-firefighters-did-all-they-could/
** The Okanogan County Sheriff’s Office investigation.
Completed ( according to Sheriff Frank Logan ). No foul play suspected but Logan also adds that he believes there was nothing that could have been done to prevent the deaths. He also seems to state that he knows for a FACT that the deceased FFs were up there trying to (quote) “get people out” and “protect houses”… but he doesn’t say how he is able to state those 2 things as if they are FACTS.
** The Twisp USFS investigation…
Forest Service investigators have begun drafting their final report, agency spokeswoman Cathy Dowd said Tuesday “We owe it to their families to make sure we have this information right. That’s why it takes so much time,” Dowd said. The new investigative system isn’t focused on fault finding, but rather on learning from an incident so it won’t be repeated, Forest Service officials have said.
** The Twisp FEDERAL OSHA investigation…
The federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is conducting a separate investigation.
Rosemarie Olney, an OSHA spokeswoman, said Wednesday that fieldwork is finished. Officials at the agency’s Bellevue office are now reviewing materials and evidence and writing the final report, which should be released by mid-February.
Until then, it’s considered an “open and active investigation” and no further details will be released, Olney said.
NOTE: Washington State is like Arizona in that it has it’s own ‘WISHA” ( Washington Industrial Safety and Health Act of 1973 ) agency that normally handles workplace accident investigations in the state of Washington. The reason that the Twisp fatalities investigation is a full-blown FEDERAL OSHA investigation is because the deceased employees were FEDERAL ( USFS ) employees, and WISHA had no jurisdiction to investigate their deaths.
** The Twisp USDA OIG investigation…
The U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Office of Inspector General is also investigating, Cathy Dowd said.
Followup…
** USFS EMPLOYEE CATHY DOWD
By the way… that article linked to above is the same one that has that new quote from USFS spokesperson Cathy Dowd about them “wanting to get this right”.
Quote from Cathy Dowd in the October 28, 2015 article regarding the US Forestry “Learning Review” thing…
———————————–
Forest Service investigators have begun drafting their final report, agency spokeswoman Cathy Dowd said Tuesday.
“We owe it to their families to make sure we have this information right. That’s why it takes so much time,” Dowd said.
——————————–
In the original Wenatchee World article where CRAP team lead John Phipps first spoke to the public following the Twisp fatalities… the person standing in the photo at the top of the article in-between Phipps and Mike Williams ( Supervisor for the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest ) is USFS employee Cathy Dowd.
The Wenatchee World
Article Title: Winds shifted shortly before flames overcame firefighters
Published: Aug. 25, 2015, 11:24 a.m by Dee Riggs
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/aug/23/winds-shifted-shortly-before-flames-overcame-firefighters/
Photo caption…
World photo/Dee Riggs. Forest Service officials John Phipps, left, and Mike Williams hold a press conference Sunday afternoon at the Forest Service headquarters in Wenatchee. Behind them is Forest Service employee Cathy Dowd.
Thank you, WTKTT.
I pretty much knew/guessed I was correct in my thinking, but thanks for providing the extra details.
And, yes, ain’t it a coincidence? Kind of like the repeating 19’s.
Another question, since you’ve been scouring this fairly closely, writing about it, and thus “imagining” it more than I have. I really haven’t had the time, but I have been following what you’ve been writing, and I appreciate that you’ve been doing it.
I’m confused about something, and maybe my confusion is just in my head, or is the result of how it’s been reported.
Regarding the guys with the dozer. Are they the same ones that there were the reports of being in that driveway/garage? Or are they somebody else?
I haven’t mapped this. Do you know exactly how far the dozer was from the engine? I’m really having a hard time creating a picture of this in my head.
If you have any coordinates for these various relevant locations , I’d appreciate them. It really helped me to map out the fire in California. I think in maps.
And thanks for parsing out the timing. It really is weird.
And it really bugs me that there’s this:
“Completed ( according to Sheriff Frank Logan ). No foul play suspected but Logan also adds that he believes there was nothing that could have been done to prevent the deaths. He also seems to state that he knows for a FACT that the deceased FFs were up there trying to (quote) “get people out” and “protect houses”… but he doesn’t say how he is able to state those 2 things as if they are FACTS.”
(Wow. do I miss blockquoting, which I”ve been doing a lot of on the Great Orange Satan lately.)
He has absolutely no authority to be saying those things! At least in my humble opinion.
And, yeah, in my mind, the fact that there was BOTH a USFS Engine and a DNR Dozer trapped up there says to me that something coordinated was going on, and not just an “independent action” on the part of either the Engine or the Dozer. Which means somebody was coordinating it. Somebody with authority over both the Engine and the Dozer crews.
I circle around and back in my thinking to Gary’s well-founded rants about the Interagency Incident Command Team structures and thinking. California first developed this system, because something had to be designed to manage large incidents with various agencies working on them.
And they’ve been lauded and lauded and lauded, often for good reasons.
Quite frankly, until I read Gary’s well-founded rants, I had not realized these teams and this kind of structure could be the source of major problems.
But Twisp just might prove to be an incident “caused” by something going wrong with this system, and that might even be a reason why there’s so much contradiction and obfuscation in the reporting.
Dang, I wish wildlandfire.com wasn’t just a skeleton of its old feisty self. They used to pick this kind of stuff apart until either the cows came home or the facts emerged, whichever came first. And it was a bunch of dedicated wildland firefighters doing it. They knew what they were doing.
Wow. Just heard on the radio that New Mexico is at 10 inches average precipitation so far this year. Our “normal” is 15. And we haven’t even barely just begun our winter El Nino hit. And I have two roofs to either repair or replace. I suspect we’ll have another year of few wildfires next year, and then 2017 could be a killer year.
Namaste!
I meant to write another sentence after the paragraph about wildlandfire.com:
The Silence of the Lambs deeply troubles me.
PS. I wrote:
“so much contradiction and obfuscation in the reporting.”
That’s exactly the problem that happened on the Esperanza Fire, the fire, I think, that caused the lightbulb to go on inside of Gary’s head.
Well, I don’t know that the problem was in the reporting, but it was DEFINITELY the problem in the investigation. The Engine crew that was killed was a USFS crew, and they were under the command of a CalFire IMT and Division Supervisor. So all hell broke loose on this fire incident, and, subsequently, on the investigation.
Twisp may have been a short crow-fly from 30-Mile, geographically speaking, but it may be only a stone’s throw from Esperanza.
Marti—-Again let me say that the Sheriffs department is not responsible for the Fire investigation. They are responsible for the investigation of the Fatalities as it relates to Negligent or Criminal action.
They were killed because of a Vehicle accident where they drove off the road into Brush either burning or not burning at the time and died from the result of being burned by the fire,
That is the extent of their investigation. Not if they did any thing wrong by being where they were or what they were doing there.
It is no different than a traffic accident. Were they intoxicated were they on drugs causative factors.
To the Sheriff they were in the area doing their job had an accident and were overrun buy the fire and Died.
The Sheriffs office has no clue on the Fire Fighting rules and directions or if they violated them. All they do is determine the cause of the Deaths. Accidental or Criminal and what caused them to die. No foul play or illegal actions.
Yes, that’s totally how I understand it, and thank you for substantiating it.
The thing that I’m challenging is how the heck is he assuming the authority to say to the press what he’s saying?
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 8, 2015 at 10:33 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> The thing that I’m challenging is how the heck
>> is he assuming the authority to say to the
>> press what he’s saying?
Exactly.
NO ONE expects some ‘Sheriff’ to supply all the details of this ‘accident’… or they fully formed explanation of why those 3 poor men died…
…but this Sheriff DID make an official STATEMENT about what they were supposedly DOING when they died.
He said ( with no qualifiers ) “They were getting people out. They were protecting houses”.
So since there has been no official word yet from the people who ARE charged with finding out EVERYTHING that took place…
Are we to assume what this Sheriff has said is something he was TOLD… and both things are a FACT?
*OR*
Is this Sheriff still just ASSUMING that’s what they were doing?
Even the public evidence that can be ‘seen’ so far does NOT support his FIRST claim… that they were sent up there to ‘get anyone out’.
Copy.
OMG looks like there was a huge blowup today, while I was still involved in the Daily Kos 5 blowup.
And it’s now way way past my bedtime.
Will parse into the controversy above tomorrow.
Although I still agree with you, fundamentally, that AZDF’s argument, if supported by a judge, sets a precedent that flies in the face of any future WUI fire-fighting decisions as being in the “scope of responsibility” on future fires threatening the WUI.
Which, by setting legal precedent, will throw this whole thing wildly up in the air.
I agree with Gary’s concerns. But his concerns, at this point in time are “theory.” And they’re good “theory.”
There is a huge problem with the whole realm of legal responsibility in regards to how and why and to what risk firefighters (both wildland and structural and fusion) are doing what they are doing in the wildland urban interface. Both Yarnell and, possibly, Twisp may be ground-breaking events in this whole conundrum.
The problem is that Gary’s “theory” isn’t being practiced in reality. And it can’t be, because the priorities of the WUI are now over-riding the priorities of forest-oriented land management agencies in regards to protecting acres of Ponderosa Pines and such.
Even though I think it’s totally true that home-owners need to swallow a humongous amount of more responsibility for their homes.
But that’s not the thinking and strategizing as those fire-fighting resources are being deployed to fight those fires. No matter what Gary says, that just isn’t how they are thinking and acting.
Gary’s comment to me regarding the Slide Fire may be legitimate. I just don’t know. I will respond to that tomorrow.
But his theory just doesn’t hold water regarding Yarnell. The vast majority of the “land” they were “protecting” on Sunday was private land. And, yes, that leads back to what you are saying upstream. It all, at least to some extent, leads back to the botched Initial Attack. And that leads back, in turn, to the fact that the land they were investing those resources on Saturday was not, as the Sunday dynamics rolled out, State Land.
That fire was headed towards Private Land. They knew that. They spent mucho dineros going after protecting that land.
No matter what Gary says.
OK I”m realizing my comment didn’t specifically relate to yours.
It’s more related to the general realm of what we are heatedly discussing.
Also some further thoughts regarding this:
“The only investigation that the article puts any kind of ‘timeframe’ on is the FEDERAL OSHA one, which apparently might be the FIRST one to be finished and released by ( perhaps ) mid-February of next year ( 2016 ).”
I’m writing this off the top of my head, so buyer beware, but I’ve done some research into this.
The federal agency that is actually charged with investigating deaths on structural fires is NIOSH. Check out their website. They have, increasingly, been getting more and more interested in wildland fire fatalities, and even expressed some interest in looking at the Yarnell HIll Fire.
A NIOSH investigation of what happened at Twisp could, actually, be quite interesting, because they are beholden to NO-ONE.
Sonny has repeatedly expressed a wish that the FBI investigate Yarnell. I don’t think that’s going to happen, but having NIOSH investigate a fatal wildland fire could be the next best thing.
And to go further in my thinking along these lines.
I totally sympathize with and support Sonny’s concern about the deaths of Yarnell citizens as a possible result of the fire. The smoke inhalation had to have been critical. That smoke column just definitely laid down and smothered Yarnell.
And I agree with his concerns about the retardant. Which is kind of a two-edged sword, all things considered. I personally believe, from looking at the imaging, that some of the lines laid down protected homes in the Model Creek area, the Sickles Road area, and, definitely Yarnell. Someone else’s mileage may vary.
I don’t know what it could take to get NIOSH to investigate what has happened to the people of Yarnell who may be dying as a result of this fire.
I know that in the past year there have been many articles and such put out there about the dangerous effects of smoke inhalation on wildland fire-fighters, both on their immediate functioning and their long-term effects.
And I’ve seen lots of articles on the Internet about the dangerous-to-fatal effects of smoke-inhalation on the people of Indonesia as a result of the huge fires there this year.
So, to wrap this up, I’m sitting here thinking that I don’t know what it would take to get NIOSH to look at the possible deaths of Yarnell people as a result of this fire. But, all things considered (given that wildfire is an increasing reality in the Wildland Urban Interface), but there might be a way to convince them that looking at Yarnell might be a worthwhile thing for them to do.
Just sayin’.
**
** ARIZONA ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL CONTINUES TO ARGUE THAT
** ARIZONA FORESTRY HAS NO DUTY OR RESPONSIBILITY TO EVER PROTECT
** ANY PROPERTY OR CITIZEN OR EVER EVEN WARN THEM ABOUT ANYTHING.
Arguments in attorney Craig Knapp’s APPEAL of the Yarnell Property Owner’s suits on behalf of Lee and DJ Helm and 160+ other property owners are ongoing and actually ‘heating up’ right now.
Attorney Craig Knapp and the Arizona Assistant Attorney General ( Brock Heathcotte ) are actively ‘duking it out’ right now and exchanging ‘briefs’ and ‘arguments’ in the ‘appeal’ process.
Just 48 hours ago… an article appeared reporting on the ‘appeal’ process and how the Arizona Assistant State Attorney General is still arguing that YES… Arizona Forestry obviously took on the responsibility of the Yarnell Hill Fire on Friday evening ( AZF employee Russ Shumate put in charge of it )… but NO… there was NEVER any responsibility on their part to ever lift one finger to protect any home or person in Yarnell… or even ever one drop of responsibility to notify any resident of that area that they should evacuate.
It is HIGHLY likely that attorney Craig Knapp is going to WIN this appeal… and those original 160+ property damage lawsuits WILL proceed to trial.
And once they go to trial… witnesses can finally be called to the stand and we will find out what really happened that ENTIRE weekend in Yarnell ( Friday, Saturday AND Sunday ).
It’s also worth noting that according to this latest article… Arizona Assistant Attorney General Brock Heathcotte now knows that the original claim that Arizona Forestry was a ‘non-jural entity’ and could not be sued under any circumstances is/was a total crock of shit.
Heathcotte’s legal briefs are now taking the form of ‘legal gymnastics’ and are all based on the other claim that Arizona Forestry never has any responsibility to do jack shit for any citizen of the State of Arizona. Period. End of story.
It’s really hard to put into words how IMPORTANT this one, single pending
COURT decision really is.
We are talking about the COURTS ( in Arizona ) deciding ( once and for all ) that a PUBLIC agency that MOST of the taxpayers of Arizona believe exists to help THEM in their time of need has not one single atomic molecule of either duty or responsibility to ever even attempt to do any such thing… or to even even WARN them they are in danger.
And that applies to every single person who ever WORKS for that Agency… and what THEY believe their actual ‘job’ is. If this decision is upheld… then NO ONE who ever works for Arizona Forestry should ever be the slightest bit concerned about a house, a town, a city, or the life of anyone who resides there. Not once. Not ever.
However this decision goes… it, itself, will be HISTORIC and everyone and anyone who calls themselves a Wildland Firefighter should have something to say about it.
If this appeal does not succeed… then it AUTOMATICALLY establishes that whatever Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed themselves thought they were trying to accomplish on June 30, 2013 was so far outside their legal authority as Arizona Forestry employees that just the fact they were even attempting to do anything at all other than ‘hunker and be safe’ was total, gross (criminal?) negligence.
Here is that article that appeared just 48 hours ago…
The Arizona Capitol Times
Article: State claims it can’t be sued by Yarnell residents for losses in the 2013 fire
Published: November 2, 2015 , 5:42 am
By: Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2015/11/02/state-claims-it-cant-be-sued-by-yarnell-residents-for-losses-in-2013-fire/
From the article…
————————————————————————————-
Yarnell residents burned out of their homes in 2013 have no right to sue Arizona for their losses, lawyers for the state are arguing.
In filings with the state Court of Appeals, Assistant Attorney General Brock Heathcotte acknowledged the state did attempt to fight the blaze that destroyed more than 120 homes and resulted in the deaths of 19 firefighters. But he said that was only done to protect the state’s own land, “not to provide fire-suppression services to the private-property owners to protect their property.”
And Heathcotte said the state is not liable for harm to other property owners when the damage is caused by the “natural condition” of the land. He told the court that is clearly the case here.
“The Yarnell Hill Fire was a natural consequence of natural conditions,” he wrote. “It was naturally ignited (by a lightning strike) on wildland, was fueled by natural vegetation, and spread in response to hot, dry, and windy conditions.”
And what all that means, Heathcotte argued, is there is no right to sue the state even though the fire on state land spread to private property and was not contained there.
The filings come in response to a bid by homeowners to have their day in court. Attorney Craig Knapp, representing the plaintiffs, contends the state is liable because it undertook the chore of defending the community but was negligent in that performance.
But Knapp never got a chance to make that argument to a jury. Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Richard Gama said there was no evidence the state, in fighting the fire on state land, had any duty to specifically protect Yarnell residents and their property.
Knapp wants the appellate court to overturn that ruling. But Heathcotte, in his new legal filings, said there are good reasons to leave the original ruling intact.
“The Yarnell Hill Fire is a tragic reminder that fighting fires is dangerous,” he wrote. “Requiring wildland firefighters to use their available assets to protect structures and personal belongings would expose the firefighters to even greater danger than they already face.”
And Heathcotte told the appellate court it needs to look at the issue from a matter of personal responsibility “Imposing a duty on the state to protect private property owners from the risks of wildland fires would further reduce the incentive of persons who choose to live in the wildland–urban interface to take measures to make their homes less susceptible to damage from wildland fires,” he said.
Knapp also is arguing the state should have provided an evacuation notice. He said evidence shows the state knew within two days of its firefighting efforts that the community was “indefensible.”
“The state, however, did not warn its residents about that the fact … until 14 or 15 hours later,” Knapp wrote in his court filings. “Instead, the state did not share its secret evaluation that Yarnell was indefensible” and did not provide an evacuation notice “until the fire was poised to devastate Yarnell.”
But Heathcotte said the state has no obligation to provide any evacuation notices at all.
The 19 firefighters who died were members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
A negligence claim by the families of 12 of the firefighters was settled in July for $50,000 apiece and promises by the state of changes in the way it fights fires.
————————————————————————————-
Thanks for posting this.
I am, after a loooooong hard day, too brain-dead to dig into the specifics of this.
But I’m thinking that this CYA rationale on the part of Arizona Department of Forestry isn’t, in the long run, going to go over very well with the citizens/taxpayers of the Late Great State of Arizona.
It’s ironic that this claim is being made, while a CONSIDERABLE amount of EXPENSIVE resources dispatched to this fire were IN FACT, under the leadership of the Incident Management Team, engaged in PROTECTING STRUCTURES threatened by this fire.
Attempting, via Structure Protection Group Supervisor Darrell Willis, to protect the Double A Bar Ranch, when it was pretty much apparent to Air Attack that that wasn’t going to work and that he and his crew needed to evacuate that.
And attempting, via virtual ALL of the air resources, to protect structures in the Model Creek Road area, the Sickles Road area, and Yarnell itself, including that whole (and basically successful) protectant line dropped across Yarnell, as the fire was bearing down toward it.
If protecting structures wasn’t a requisite part of ADOF’s responsibility, why was their $$ contracted Bravo 3 spending a bunch of time organizing and leading that whole tactic of putting that retardant line across the bowl above Glen Isla? To protect State Lands — YOU BETCHA!!!
Oh, and (cough cough wink wink) if protecting structures was SO TOTALLY NOT a part of (cough cough wink wink) ADOF (Arizona Fire) responsibility/implementation on the ground, why was Gary Cordes (if not but possibly Paul Musser) involved (via Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball) in trying to (last-ditch hail-mary) attempt to put (and possibly/probably burn off via the Granite Mountain Hotshots — RIP) in a dozer line above Glen Isla.
Me thinks there may be a whole host of more insanity to ensue in this Shakespearean wildfire. But I don’t believe the taxpayers of the great State of Arizonistan will. ultimately agree with it
I just don’t think the citizens of Arizona (as maddeningly regressive as many of they are), are going to accept an agency that controls their lands and is responsible for engaging other wildland firefighters in their state, saying, well, geeez, we just don’t have any responsibly for any of this.
On the other hand, some people here MIGHT be able to prove me incorrect.
I have always been wiling for people here to correct me (even sometimes painfully).
Thank you for this post wwtktt. Been a very pleasant day. Time to crash but I still stand strong if this goes to trial…Bulldozer operator..Paul Morin should be interviewed and many many firefighters reinterviewed/interviewed.
As well as homeowners interviewed
And certain dispatchers and pilots and yacso should be interviewed
Marti… I think you are right.
If the ‘good taxpayers’ of Arizona were really paying attention to these arguments that their own assistant attorney general is currently making in an active court case… I think most of them would be dumbfounded.
I say most… because we already know for sure from comments seen on media sites like AZCENTRAL and the Prescott Daily Courier that there will always be people saying that if someone doesn’t totally fireside their property or town then they deserve every bit of disaster that comes their way… and some even think those people should be let loose somewhere and used for elk hunting target practice.
Personal opinions about firewising aren’t really the (legal) issue at stake here.
What’s at stake is whether or not people who are employed by, or contract with, a public agency have even the slightest correct understanding of what they fuck they are ever even SUPPOSED to be doing while they are putting all those taxpayer dollars into their pockets.
One ( of many ) things that boggles my mind regarding these “never our yob” arguments the State of Arizona is making has to do with these essential “Interagency Firefighting” agreements that are in place all over that Late Great State of Arizona.
What do these “never our yob” arguments do to all of THOSE agreements and the accompanying (codified) expectations… now and in the future?
It’s a bloody mess the way it’s being argued by this assistant attorney general and I hope everyone from taxpayers to people that have signed agreements with ADOF are paying attention.
Typos above. Smartphone spellchecker changed the word ‘firewise’ into the word ‘fireside’.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
“I say most… because we already know for sure from comments seen on media sites like AZCENTRAL and the Prescott Daily Courier that there will always be people saying that if someone doesn’t totally FIREWISE their property or town then they deserve every bit of disaster that comes their way… and some even think those people should be let loose somewhere and used for elk hunting target practice.”
This:
“State of Arizona is making has to do with these essential “Interagency Firefighting” agreements that are in place all over that Late Great State of Arizona.”
The whole argument they’re making is just completely bogus.
What WUI?????????????
Are you kidding me???
They have (paid for by the tax-payers) whole training sessions now practicing fire-fighting in the Wildland Urban Interface! The biggest reason the City of Prescott has given for not replacing GMHS with even a 20-person Type 2 Wildland team (which LOTS of other places are putting in) is that they “have” the Prescott IHC and all of their structural fire-fighters are cross-trained in Wildland Fire (all of our questions about hybrid crew-thinking notwithstanding). Those Wildland Fires that they are cross-training for will, most likely, at least to a certain extent, be managed by IMTs from AZDF.
EVERYTHING now impacts the WUI. And is increasingly structured around dealing with it.
I keep thinking about the Slide Fire. Nobody has any responsibility for protecting Sedona? Are you freaking kidding me?? (Of course that fire became a USFS fire — conveniently) but that didn’t mean that protecting Sedona and communities north like Kachina Village wasn’t even remotely part of the equation. Sciacca herded that fire up the side canyons and onto the plateau where it burned an extra 20K acres of Ponderosa Pines precisely to keep it out of Sedona and Kachina Village.
The other thing I”m seeing with this is that neither AZCentral nor PD Courier are even covering any of this any more. So the public doesn’t know what we know. It all dropped off the table after the “Second Anniversary.” If they did, well, there might just be pitchforks (figuratively speaking, of course).
You said you are pretty certain the homeowner lawsuits will go forward on appeal. The appeal will be successful. Are you thinking that because of this? That all things considered a judge will decide that AZDF’s rationale is as completely bogus as we see it as being, and for the same reasons?
Thanks for hanging in there (here) WTKTT!
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 7, 2015 at 7:47 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> You said you are pretty certain the homeowner lawsuits
>> will go forward on appeal. The appeal will be successful.
>> Are you thinking that because of this? That all things
>> considered a judge will decide that AZDF’s rationale is
>> as completely bogus as we see it as being, and for the
>> same reasons?
Yes. That is my ‘hope’ and my ‘expectation’… but there’s a twist.
I believe that the lower court Judge ( Richard Gama ) shit a brick when he saw this first case come onto HIS court calendar.
I believe he knew immediately that no matter WHAT he decided… this case was going to be ‘appealed’.
If Gama had decided in favor of the 160+ Yarnell Property owners and let the case go to trial… HIS court system would get clogged up and tens ( maybe hundreds ) of dollars to conduct this long, extensive, complicated trial.
That will still happen if the appeals court ‘bounces it back’ to him… but I think he decided to just “pass the buck” first and not make it look like it was HIS decision for this case to have a bona-fide trial.
So he just ‘kicked it upstairs’ in the hopes it would ‘go away’.
The PROOF of that is actually in his own ruling. He basically just said… “Yea… what YOU said” with regards to briefs filed by Arizona Forestry and didn’t even bother to explain what briefs he was ‘agreeing’ with.
That’s the sign of a Judge that doesn’t want to deal with something just making his initial ruling ‘short and sweet’ since he already knows it going to be appealed by the opposite side no matter what he ‘ruled’.
No Judge likes any ruling they make to be ‘overturned’ on appeal… but in this case… and because the decisions are/will be so controversial… he took the ‘chicken shit’ route and just expedited the ‘kick upstairs’.
If it lands back in HIS ( personal ) lap ( he’s probably hoping it won’t ), then he can still say he was FORCED to have the trial.
I actually also think if this ‘kicks back’ to the lower courts… this Judge Richard Gama guy will NOT be the one who has to oversee the actual trial. I think both sides will petition that the lower court assign the ‘kick back’ to some OTHER Judge ( which is also what Gama is probably hoping as well ).
So that’s the ‘legal games’ side of it.
As for the issues (themselves) here that are at stake… I believe this will be a HISTORIC decision no matter how it comes out.
Let’s say that this appeals Judge ‘sides’ with Arizona Forestry and decides on a Friday afternoon that the appeal should be denied.
Come Monday morning… there need to be new SIGNS posted in the offices of all Arizona Forestry line supervisors saying…
“NOTICE: Due to the recent court decision, no Arizona Forestry employee or contractor must ever lift a finger to protect any piece of private property, private structure, citizen or provide any notices of evacuation to any citizen. To do so would be a direct violation of this agency’s scope of responsibility and any employee or contractor undertaking such actions will be subject to dismissal for acting outside the bounds of their legal authority.”
Or something like that.
Absurd? Of course… but that is my point here.
THAT is what a COURT decision siding with Arizona Forestry at this point will fully establish as the current legal precedent for that agency in the Late Great State of Arizona.
You would have to be certifiably insane to think that protecting the not-on-state-land towns/communities of Peeples Valley, Model Creek, Sickles Ranch Road, Yarnell and Glen Ilah… and the properties and structures and citizens of those same places… was NOT the PRIMARY DIRECTIVE in the minds of all those Arizona State Forestry employees that were there on that fateful Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Just read the transcripts of their OWN testimony.
It’s pretty much ALL anyone was thinking of the minute they were HIRED to work that fire… and the references to “structure protection” and “citzen evacuations” are EVERYWHERE in those transcripts.
The appeals Judge is now faced with deciding whether every single effort that WAS being made that day was already ‘negligence’ and Arizona Forestry employees and contractors were ALREADY acting outside the bounds of their LEGAL AUTHORITY with just about every single thing they even attempted to do that fateful day.
If there was ever an issue that deserved its day-in-court… this is it.
If the appeal itself is ‘denied’… and on the basis of the arguments that Arizona State Assistant Attorney General Brock Heathcotte is currently making… then it will be a HISTORIC decision.
It will have implications for every single State level Forestry agency in the entire country with regards to what the fuck the people who PAY them ( all of them ) THINK they are supposed to do… and what the fuck they are actually ever SUPPOSED to be doing.
Where’s that popcorn?
Whoops. I obviously left the word THOUSANDS out of a paragraph up above.
That paragraph should have read like this…
“If Gama had decided in favor of the 160+ Yarnell Property owners and let the case go to trial… HIS court system would get clogged up with tens ( maybe hundreds ) of THOUSANDS of dollars to conduct this long, extensive, complicated trial.”
Followup…
I know there are difficult LEGAL concepts for someone to get their head around here… and I’m not sure I’m explaining it well.
Maybe this SHORTER summary is more ‘to the point’?
In their absolute obsession to try and make sure no one ever finds out what REALLY happened that entire weekend in Yarnell… Arizona Forestry is deciding to throw the ‘baby out with the bathwater’.
They ( Arizona Forestry ) have authorized their legal counsel ( which also happens to be PUBLICLY paid Arizona State Attorney general office employees ) to pursue a ‘legal gymnastics’ course of argument without realizing the full implications if they SUCCEED.
If they SUCCEED in just this one myopic goal of preventing legitimate citizen claims from being heard by a legitimate jury for just one specific firefighting boondoogle… they are throwing ALL of their poker chips into the pot and putting the very nature of their own existence on the line.
If they SUCCEED… then ( legally speaking ) no one who ever works for Arizona Forestry will ever again be ‘authorized’ or can ever again be ‘caught’ doing ANY of the things that ALL of those Arizona Forestry employees who were fighting the Yarnell Fire were obviously doing that weekend.
Is that really what they want?
What they SHOULD do here is let these specific claims for this specific incident just GO TO TRIAL.
There is still a chance they will WIN… and will NOT have to pay out the ( I believe ) 46 million plus dollars in damage claims.
But what scares them most of all is that even if they WIN the eventual trial… during the course of the trial and the calling of all the witnesses… the PUBLIC will, in fact, still end up finding out EXACTLY what happened that entire weekend.
So that’s where the ‘baby with the bathwater’ analogy comes into play.
They are willing to put their entire existence and future ‘operational realities’ on the line here just to make sure no one ever finds out what really happened on just one incident.
It doesn’t make any sense.
Not legally-speaking or otherwise.
Thanks, as usual, WTKTT. Just want to say, down here in the weeds, COPY.
“They are willing to put their entire existence and future ‘operational realities’ on the line here just to make sure no one ever finds out what really happened on just one incident.”
I getcha.
I have a personal preference towards a combination of “swiss cheese” and “kettle corn” popcorn. Although, back in the old days, when I made my own popcorn, I sprinkled it with tamari and a combination of my own seasonings. Maybe I should get back to doing that?
It really seems to me that ADOF is painting itself into a corner.
They’d rather call into question a large majority of most of what they spend taxpayers dollars doing than have the truth of what happened on this fire be made public.
It’s just mind-boggling.
And the fact that, apparently, nobody at Arizona Central seems to be even covering this is equally mind-boggling. Or maybe they are? I’ve been been overly involved with the disastrous launching of Daily Kos 5 this weekend to go look.
What a complete train-wreck.
And Gary may be right.
We may be crazy.
Gary may be totally right that an appellate Judge will do his own “Yea… what you said” in his ruling and agree with Judge Richard Gama’s ruling…
…but I still think the only ‘crazy town’ thing is for anyone to believe that all of those Arizona Forestry employees engaged in the Yarnell Hill Fire were not actively trying to do exactly what Assistant Attorney General Brock Heathcotte is now arguing ( officially and legally ) was NEVER their responsibility to do… or that they had any authority to be doing what they were doing.
That, itself, is negligence… and ( according to Heathcotte himself now ) men DIED because this Arizona Forestry team was doing what they weren’t even SUPPOSED to be doing.
Reply to Sonny post on October 30, 2015 at 11:39 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> My understanding of the Helms is that they love their privacy as I do.
Yes. There are emails that confirm that. In the aftermath of the tragedy, they allowed attorney Craig Knapp to handle their lawsuit for damages against the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry… but they still did NOT want anyone using their land to access the site. They gave Chief Ben Palm of the Yarnell FD exclusive permission to decide who could or could not access the site via THEIR property. They didn’t want to ‘deal with’ the reality of it all.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Sad for them that they now due to all this memorial thing will have to continually
>> contend with public right near their property.
>> In fact the night light there at the memorial flag we are told already has disturbed their
>> right to privacy. If it were my place I would be disgruntled after all those years of
>> peaceful living to suddenly have all the commotion to deal with.
I don’t think Lee and DJ Helm have fully grasped the situation.
They didn’t ask for it… but something HISTORIC happened just 640 yards to the west of their fence and it’s never going to go away now. Just like a lot of people… their lives were changed forever on June 30, 2013.
There is every indication that the FLAG will never be removed from that site.
Can you imagine the outcry now if the Yarnell Board actually tried to do that?
And the law says a flag must be either taken down at sundown every day or it must be LIGHTED during darkness. So that ‘lit area’ just 640 yards to the west is now most likely a PERMANENT thing they have to contend with… like it or not.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> But of course all the widows who push this and the so called do gooders who think
>> they need a memorial there have poorly considered the invasion to these people and
>> all those they want to condemn property of.
The people who are pushing for this memorial do not give one flying crap what it means to the residents of the area. They have ‘dedicated’ themselves to seeing that this memorial is ‘built’ and they won’t stop until it’s done.
Some of them even believe they are on some kind of “mission from God” to get it done.
The moment those 19 men died where they did… and HISTORY was made… it was inevitable that all of this was going to happen and the nearby ‘property owners’ are now just as much ‘victims’ of everything that happened that day as anyone else is.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> We see after all that the greatest solution to this is pay a fair market value to the
>> Helms and make that a training camp. I can tell you that that would be the best
>> solution and a great tribute to those men – way beyond making some statues and
>> some place for people to be disturbing private people.
I agree… but I never suggested that Lee and DJ Helm should be given ‘fair market value’ for their property. I believe they should be offered at least TWICE that.
Basically… an offer that is ‘good enough’ that they would basically be crazy if they refused it.
But since they are still suing the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry… I also believe that the GENEROUS offer should be ‘time limited’.
They should have 30 days to accept such a GENEROUS offer… and then all bets are off.
** 2015 PROPERTY TAX ASSEMENT AND PROPERTY VALUE ESTIMATE
** FOR LEE AND DJ HELM
Here is a copy of the actual 2015 Property Value Estimate and Tax Assessment that
was sent to Lee and DJ Helm.
NOTE: This is a totally PUBLIC document easily ‘looked up’ at the Yavapai County Tax Assessor’s PUBLIC website…
http://apps.yavapai.us/taxinquiry/SecuredTaxBill.aspx?search=203-05-003L
From the document…
——————————————————————-
HELM HUGH L & DIANE J JT
PO BOX 128
YARNELL AZ 85362
17875 W BOULDER SPRINGS TRL, YARNELL
Land, Buildings, Etc – Value in Dollars: $511,668
Assessed Value: $51, 167
Tax Rate: 10.9160
2015 ( Primary ) Taxes Total: $5,585.40
Jurisdiction, 2014 Taxes, 2015 Taxes
02000 YAVAPAI COUNTY, 1,001.86, 988.40
02001 SCHOOL EQUALIZATION, 260.38, 258.60
05052 YARNELL ELEM.S.D.#52, 2,902.44, 2,780.50
08150 YAVAPAI COMMUNITY COLLEGE, 1,066.18, 1,069.44
11211 YARNELL F.D., 1,662.92. 1,662.92
11900 FIRE DIST. ASSIST. FUND, 51.58, 51.18
14900 YAVAPAI CTY. LIBRARY DISTRICT, 77.36, 85.30
15001 YAVAPAI FLOOD CONTROL DISTRICT, 108.26, 105.40
Primary Property Tax: $5,585.40
Less State Aid to Education: $600.00
Net Primary Property Tax: $4,985.40
Secondary Property Tax: $2,016.34
Special District Tax: $0.00
TOTAL TAX DUE FOR 2015: $7,001.74
——————————————————————–
Obviously a total ‘Valuation’ for that Boulder Springs Ranch compound and the property it sits on of only $511,668 is absurdly LOW… and could not possibly be considered the ‘fair market value’ of that property.
Only a legitimate appraisal could determine the REAL ‘Value of the property’.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )….
( Continued from previous message )…
** 4.4 MILLION
Lee and DJ Helm are still suing the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry for 4.4 MILLION dollars.
On June 23, 2014, Lee and DJ Helm were listed as ‘plaintiffs’ in the original property damage ‘notice of claim’ ( intention to sue ) filed by attorney Craig Knapp.
Yarnell Property Owners Lawsuit filed June 23, 2014
http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/yarnell-property-owners-lawsuit.pdf
———————————————————————————
From the original Property Damage lawsuit(s) document dated June 23, 2014…
Defendants: STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and the ARIZONA STATE
FORESTRY DIVISION, a public entity.
92. Plaintiff Diane J. Helm ( DJ Helm ) is an Arizona resident who suffered damages,
including severe emotional distress and property damage to her home, real property,
and personal possessions as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence
in managing the Yarnell HIll Fire over the period of June 28 to June 30, 2013, and as a
direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in conducting the evacuation of
the Yarnell area on June 30, 2013. Plaintiff Diane J. Helm filed a proper and timely notice
of claim, which was denied.
93. Plaintiff Hugh L. Helm ( Lee Helm ) is an Arizona resident who suffered damages,
including severe emotional distress and property damage to his home, real property,
and personal possessions as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence
in managing the Yarnell HIll Fire over the period of June 28 to June 30, 2013, and as a
direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in conducting the evacuation of
the Yarnell area on June 30, 2013. Plaintiff Hugh L. Helm filed a proper and timely notice
of claim, which was denied.
———————————————————————————
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continued from previous message )…
On December 19, 2014, Lee and DJ Helm were again listed in the actual lawsuit filed against the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry.
That document now listed the specific monetary damages that Lee and DJ Helm were seeking…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: 13 new Yarnell Hill Fire claims filed
Published: 12/20/2013 6:00:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1086&articleID=126609
From the article…
————————————————–
Late Thursday afternoon, the City of Prescott received 13 new claims from Yarnell property owners, totaling more than $40 million in alleged damages. That brings the total number of property-owner claims from Yarnell property owners to 34 to date.
Along with the city, the claims name the State of Arizona, Yavapai County, and the Yarnell Fire District. Like the previous 21 claims from Yarnell property owners, the new claims demand equal amounts from each entity.
Below is a list of Yarnell property owners who have filed claims of negligence over losses in the June 30 Yarnell Hill wildfire, along the amounts of their claims.
Filed on December 19, 2014…
Hugh L. Helm & Diane J. Helm:
State of Arizona – $1,100,000,
City of Prescott -$1,100,000,
Yavapai County – $1,100,000,
Yarnell Fire District – $1,100,000
Total: $4,400,000 ( Four MILLION four hundred thousand dollars )
————————————————–
Those ‘property damage’ lawsuits are still on ‘appeal’ and there is a very good chance they will still go forward.
I think the State of Arizona should offer Lee and DJ Helm at LEAST 8.8 MILLION to settle their suit against them… with the caveat that this is a PURCHASE OFFER for the property itself.
They should give them 30 days to ‘take it or leave’ it.
I would agree that the market value is at least double of what the tax man estimates. Likely three times that value would be a good sum for those people. I am told they have another business in the Phoenix area that does work for government. Likely they chose that Yarnell area for its privacy.
I wonder if they would include a few statures of the 50 or so locals that died in the aftermath of the fire. I did mention that at a meeting but it was not given much notice. We might as well dirty up the pristine area with plenty of these statues — but I am sure the bears and deer will not appreciate looking at those things.
Reply to Sonny post on November 5, 2015 at 10:26 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I would agree that the market value is at least double of what
>> the tax man estimates.
I agree. Forget ANY of the property values or the barns/workshops… I think the value of that residence with its custom-built windows is easily in the cool 1 million dollar range.
There’s no use looking at any ‘real estate listings’ to try and get a comparison value for that Boulder Springs Ranch. It’s unique… and there really is nothing in that area that compares to it.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Likely three times that value would be a good sum for those people.
Whatever it takes to get them to realize that HISTORY has been made in their backyard and it really would behoove them to take a ‘good offer’ and move on.
But the offer should be MORE THAN JUST FAIR VALUE.
It should be “an offer they can’t refuse”.
The absolute ‘highest and best use’ for that compound now is as the official ‘Visitor’s Center’ and AFWFTI ( Arizona Forestry Wildland Firefighting Training Institute ). That’s just a fact.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I am told they have another business
>> in the Phoenix area that does work for government.
>> Likely they chose that Yarnell area for its privacy.
There are photographs in the public record that have been taken INSIDE the ‘workshops’ there at the BSR… and to be honest… there are some photos of some equipment in that pristine workshop that I couldn’t even tell you what the fuck they might be used for ( and I know equipment and machinery pretty well ).
I also don’t think Mr. Lee Helm fully realized that the photos he was letting those SAIT investigators take while they were on his property would even be part of a public FOIA release. If he had… I don’t think he would have allowed them.
So there IS this lingering ‘mystery’ about the Boulder Springs Ranch itself, Mr. Helm, and where all that money to build/maintain a ‘compound’ like that was really coming from.
This is not ‘tin foil hat’ stuff.
There really is/was something ‘weird’ about that Boulder Springs Ranch.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I wonder if they would include a few statures of the 50 or so locals
>> that died in the aftermath of the fire. I did mention that at a meeting
>> but it was not given much notice. We might as well dirty up the
>> pristine area with plenty of these statues — but I am sure the bears
>> and deer will not appreciate looking at those things.
See a new post above about an article that appeared only 48 hours ago regarding what’s happening with the APPEAL process for those ‘Yarnell Property Owners’ lawsuits that were summarily dismissed by this Judge Richard Gama guy.
There is still EVERY chance in the world that his decision will be overturned… and those lawsuits will continue.
If they do… then what has happened in Yarnell AFTER the fire is just as relevant as what happened that weekend and I believe that will just become part of the proceedings that end up being heard by an actual JURY.
The link to that article that appeared 48 hours ago is…
The Arizona Capitol Times
Article: State claims it can’t be sued by Yarnell residents for losses in the 2013 fire
Published: November 2, 2015 , 5:42 am
By: Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2015/11/02/state-claims-it-cant-be-sued-by-yarnell-residents-for-losses-in-2013-fire/
Make that the latest count of 73 more statues. Those people died as a result of the negligence of not getting that fire out early. I don’t want a statue but I died a bit and was resusitated by cpr and mechanical methods to keep me breathing. See that would be 74 plus the nineteen. All that agent orange dropped that is a guaranteed fish killer also kills older folks whose lungs and heart have already been compromised. It is called a 12% secret similar to the 8% secret ingredients in that slurry that gives off the NH3 lung killing gas. That shit is as bad as radon but in a different manner. Nasty stuff and I suspect down the line firemen that survive it will have some grounds for compensation.
Reply to Sonny post on October 30, 2015 at 11:39 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> My understanding of the Helms is that they love their privacy as I do.
Yes. There are emails that confirm that. In the aftermath of the tragedy, they allowed attorney Craig Knapp to handle their lawsuit for damages against the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry… but they still did NOT want anyone using their land to access the site. They gave Chief Ben Palm of the Yarnell FD exclusive permission to decide who could or could not access the site via THEIR property. They didn’t want to ‘deal with’ the reality of it all.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Sad for them that they now due to all this memorial thing will have to continually
>> contend with public right near their property.
>> In fact the night light there at the memorial flag we are told already has disturbed their
>> right to privacy. If it were my place I would be disgruntled after all those years of
>> peaceful living to suddenly have all the commotion to deal with.
I don’t think Lee and DJ Helm have fully grasped the situation.
They didn’t ask for it… but something HISTORIC happened just 640 yards to the west of their fence and it’s never going to go away now. Just like a lot of people… their lives were changed forever on June 30, 2013.
There is every indication that the FLAG will never be removed from that site.
Can you imagine the outcry now if the Yarnell Board actually tried to do that?
And the law says a flag must be either taken down at sundown every day or it must be LIGHTED during darkness. So that ‘lit area’ just 640 yards to the west is now most likely a PERMANENT thing they have to contend with… like it or not.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> But of course all the widows who push this and the so called do gooders who think
>> they need a memorial there have poorly considered the invasion to these people and
>> all those they want to condemn property of.
The people who are pushing for this memorial do not give one flying crap what it means to the residents of the area. They have ‘dedicated’ themselves to seeing that this memorial is ‘built’ and they won’t stop until it’s done.
Some of them even believe they are on some kind of “mission from God” to get it done.
The moment those 19 men died where they did… and HISTORY was made… it was inevitable that all of this was going to happen and the nearby ‘property owners’ are now just as much ‘victims’ of everything that happened that day as anyone else is.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> We see after all that the greatest solution to this is pay a fair market value to the
>> Helms and make that a training camp. I can tell you that that would be the best
>> solution and a great tribute to those men – way beyond making some statues and
>> some place for people to be disturbing private people.
I agree… but I never suggested that Lee and DJ Helm should be given ‘fair market value’ for their property. I believe they should be offered at least TWICE that.
Basically… an offer that is ‘good enough’ that they would basically be crazy if they refused it.
But since they are still suing the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry… I also believe that the GENEROUS offer should be ‘time limited’.
They should have 30 days to accept such a GENEROUS offer… and then all bets are off.
** 2015 PROPERTY TAX ASSEMENT AND PROPERTY VALUE ESTIMATE
** FOR LEE AND DJ HELM
Here is a copy of the actual 2015 Property Value Estimate and Tax Assessment that
was sent to Lee and DJ Helm.
NOTE: This is a totally PUBLIC document easily ‘looked up’ at the Yavapai County Tax Assessor’s PUBLIC website…
http://apps.yavapai.us/taxinquiry/SecuredTaxBill.aspx?search=203-05-003L
From the document…
——————————————————————-
HELM HUGH L & DIANE J JT
PO BOX 128
YARNELL AZ 85362
17875 W BOULDER SPRINGS TRL, YARNELL
Land, Buildings, Etc – Value in Dollars: $511,668
Assessed Value: $51, 167
Tax Rate: 10.9160
2015 ( Primary ) Taxes Total: $5,585.40
Jurisdiction, 2014 Taxes, 2015 Taxes
02000 YAVAPAI COUNTY, 1,001.86, 988.40
02001 SCHOOL EQUALIZATION, 260.38, 258.60
05052 YARNELL ELEM.S.D.#52, 2,902.44, 2,780.50
08150 YAVAPAI COMMUNITY COLLEGE, 1,066.18, 1,069.44
11211 YARNELL F.D., 1,662.92. 1,662.92
11900 FIRE DIST. ASSIST. FUND, 51.58, 51.18
14900 YAVAPAI CTY. LIBRARY DISTRICT, 77.36, 85.30
15001 YAVAPAI FLOOD CONTROL DISTRICT, 108.26, 105.40
Primary Property Tax: $5,585.40
Less State Aid to Education: $600.00
Net Primary Property Tax: $4,985.40
Secondary Property Tax: $2,016.34
Special District Tax: $0.00
TOTAL TAX DUE FOR 2015: $7,001.74
——————————————————————–
Obviously a total ‘Valuation’ for that Boulder Springs Ranch compound and the property it sits on of only $511,668 is absurdly LOW… and could not possibly be considered the ‘fair market value’ of that property.
Only a legitimate appraisal could determine the REAL ‘Value of the property’.
** 4.4 MILLION
Lee and DJ Helm are still suing the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry for 4.4 MILLION dollars.
On June 23, 2014, Lee and DJ Helm were listed as ‘plaintiffs’ in the original property damage ‘notice of claim’ ( intention to sue ) filed by attorney Craig Knapp.
Yarnell Property Owners Lawsuit filed June 23, 2014
http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/yarnell-property-owners-lawsuit.pdf
———————————————————————————
From the original Property Damage lawsuit(s) document dated June 23, 2014…
Defendants: STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and the ARIZONA STATE
FORESTRY DIVISION, a public entity.
92. Plaintiff Diane J. Helm ( DJ Helm ) is an Arizona resident who suffered damages,
including severe emotional distress and property damage to her home, real property,
and personal possessions as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence
in managing the Yarnell HIll Fire over the period of June 28 to June 30, 2013, and as a
direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in conducting the evacuation of
the Yarnell area on June 30, 2013. Plaintiff Diane J. Helm filed a proper and timely notice
of claim, which was denied.
93. Plaintiff Hugh L. Helm ( Lee Helm ) is an Arizona resident who suffered damages,
including severe emotional distress and property damage to his home, real property,
and personal possessions as a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence
in managing the Yarnell HIll Fire over the period of June 28 to June 30, 2013, and as a
direct and proximate result of Defendants’ negligence in conducting the evacuation of
the Yarnell area on June 30, 2013. Plaintiff Hugh L. Helm filed a proper and timely notice
of claim, which was denied.
———————————————————————————
On December 19, 2014, Lee and DJ Helm were again listed in the actual lawsuit filed against the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry.
That document now listed the specific monetary damages that Lee and DJ Helm were seeking…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: 13 new Yarnell Hill Fire claims filed
Published: 12/20/2013 6:00:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1086&articleID=126609
From the article…
————————————————–
Late Thursday afternoon, the City of Prescott received 13 new claims from Yarnell property owners, totaling more than $40 million in alleged damages. That brings the total number of property-owner claims from Yarnell property owners to 34 to date.
Along with the city, the claims name the State of Arizona, Yavapai County, and the Yarnell Fire District. Like the previous 21 claims from Yarnell property owners, the new claims demand equal amounts from each entity.
Below is a list of Yarnell property owners who have filed claims of negligence over losses in the June 30 Yarnell Hill wildfire, along the amounts of their claims.
Filed on December 19, 2014…
Hugh L. Helm & Diane J. Helm:
State of Arizona – $1,100,000,
City of Prescott -$1,100,000,
Yavapai County – $1,100,000,
Yarnell Fire District – $1,100,000
Total: $4,400,000 ( Four MILLION four hundred thousand dollars )
————————————————–
Those ‘property damage’ lawsuits are still on ‘appeal’ and there is a very good chance they will still go forward.
I think the State of Arizona should offer Lee and DJ Helm at LEAST 8.8 MILLION to settle their suit against them… with the caveat that this is a PURCHASE OFFER for the property itself.
They should give them 30 days to ‘take it or leave’ it.
**
** ACCESS TO TWISP FIRE SURVIVOR DANIEL LYONS IS NOW BEING
** CONTROLLED BY US FORESTRY FIRE CAPTAIN KOREENA HAYES
Speaking of ‘The Wenatchee World’ and the ‘Twisp’ fire…
Just 2 days ago they reprinted an article from the ‘Methow Valley News’ with a brand new UPDATE regarding Twisp burn victim Daniel Lyon’s condition.
This NEW article about Daniel Lyon reveals the following…
1. He has been moved to a ‘rehab’ unit.
2. He can now eat ‘pizza’… but only if cut into small pieces for him.
3. They had to amputate 9 of his fingers from the tips to the first knuckle.
4. He now has a USFS ‘family liason’ – Fire Captain Koreena Hayes
5. He can now receive visitors… but ALL visits must be approved by the USFS liason.
6. As they cut back on the pain meds… his memory is returning.
The Wenatchee World
Article Title: Firefighter Daniel Lyon doing well in rehab
Published: Oct. 30, 2015, 1:49 p.m – by Marcy Stamper, Methow Valley News
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/oct/30/firefighter-daniel-lyon-doing-well-in-rehab-twisp-river-fire-victim-expected-to-have-full-recovery/
From the article…
———————————————————————————————-
“He’s doing a lot better than anyone has expected,” said Koreena Haynes, the family liaison between Lyon and his family and the U.S. Forest Service.
Haynes, a fire captain with the US Forest Service now based in Sedro-Woolley, used to work in the Methow Valley and still knows many people in the local ranger district.
Lyon will have some limitations in hand movement because doctors had to remove the tips of nine of his fingers to the first knuckle.
Now that he’s in rehab, Lyon is receiving less pain medication, which has made him more alert. That awareness has led to questions about the circumstances surrounding his injuries and about his colleagues on the fire crew.
Lyon can now have visitors in the evenings, although visits must be scheduled through the family liaison ( US Forestry Fire Captain Koreena Hayes ).
He appreciates visitors but must guard against becoming overwhelmed, said Haynes.
People interested in scheduling a visit with Lyon must contact US Forestry Fire Captain Koreena Haynes at (360) 854-2645 or khaynes (at) fs.fed.us.
———————————————————————————————-
A little PUBLICLY available background on this USFS Fire Captain who is now controlling access to Twisp Fire survivor Daniel Lyon…
** KOREENA HAYNES WROTE A LETTER TO THE WIVES AND CHILDREN
** OF THE DECEASED GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS.
When the ‘Station 7’ memorial was taken down, everything was given over
to be ‘preserved’ to an organization called the “Prescott Granite Mountain Hotshots
Tribute Fence Preservation Project”.
They have partnered with the Arizona State Library Archives and Public Records
division… and all the ‘letters’ that were received are being scanned into a Public
online Dropbox which is maintained by the Prescott Public Library.
One of those ‘letters of condolences’ to the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
was co-written by this same USFS Fire Captain ( Koreena Haynes ) who is now in complete
control of all ‘visitations’ with the lone survivor of the Twisp tragedy ( Daniel Lyon ).
The letter indicates that Koreena Haynes, herself, is the wife of a USFS Baker River Hotshot.
That letter from USFS Fire Captain Koreena Hayes is a PUBLIC document and it is here…
Arizona Memory Project
Prescott Granite Mountain Hotshots Tribute Fence Preservation Project.
Prescott Public Library, City of Prescott
Document Title: Letter of Condolence from Koreena Haynes and Nicole Poyner
http://azmemory.azlibrary.gov/cdm/ref/collection/pgmh/id/2854
The complete text of the handwritten letter…
—————————————————————————————
July, 2013
Parents… Mamas…
Enclosed you will find 8 books, one for each child. We have
included 3 baby books for the expectant mothers. We both have
used this book for our children and wanted to share it with you.
We pray that you will find peach within the special memories
of your hotshots. We watched the memorial together and felt
comfort in each other. We are so deeply sorry for your loss.
To the children of the Granite Mountain Hotshots –
We hope these stories will provide a moment of peace
for you. We are so sorry for the loss of your daddys. Our children
cried for you because they know that their dads risk their lives
on fire assignments as Baker River Hotshots.
Robby and Parker’s dad, Ian, is a squad leader and Kate and baby
Poyner is due in December, just like some of you. Our hearts are
broken for you.
Please know that you are in our hearts, thoughts and prayers.
All our love,
Koreena Haynes and Nicole Poyner
Wives of Baker River Hotshots, mothers of 3 beautiful children
with one on the way.
—————————————————————————————
USFS Fire Captain Koreena Haynes has actually been one of Daniel Lyon’s “USFS liaison officers” since at least August 26, 2015, just 7 days after the fatalities.
News Station KPAX ( Channel 8 ) based in Missoula, Montana ( where Daniel is from ) did a phone interview with Koreena Haynes on August 26, 2015… and you can hear what she sounds like at +1:05 into the VIDEO at the following link…
http://www.kpax.com/story/29887615/fund-set-up-to-help-firefighter-injured-while-battling-washington-blaze
Actually… scratch the ‘7 days’ mentioned above.
The following link proves that USFS Fire Captain Koreena Haynes has been the USFS’s ‘goto’ person for FF Daniel Lyon since pretty much the moment the tragedy took place. They put her on him IMMEDIATELY.
In the following article… she is commenting on his condition on August 20, 2015, the day after the tragedy and before they even released Daniel Lyon’s NAME…
http://www.arcamax.com/currentnews/newsheadlines/s-1709957
Whoops.
Obviously some TYPOS in the TITLE of the message up above…
The Twisp Fire survivor is “Daniel Lyon” ( not Lyons ).
The USFS Fire Captain now controlling access to him is “Koreena Haynes” ( not Hayes ).
Title above should have been…
** ACCESS TO TWISP FIRE SURVIVOR DANIEL LYON IS NOW BEING
** CONTROLLED BY US FORESTRY FIRE CAPTAIN KOREENA HAYNES
**
** THE WENATCHEE WORLD ARTICLE – ORIGINAL JOHN PHIPPS STATEMENTS
Since both ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) and Gary Olson took the time below to post links to that original Wenatchee World article reporting on that original CRAP leader John Phipps press conference… I thought I would point out a few things that might not have been noticed.
I’m talking about CRAP leader John Phipps actually contradicting himself and the information in the article… even with what little information he WAS sharing.
The Wenatchee World
Article Title: Winds shifted shortly before flames overcame firefighters
Published: Aug. 25, 2015, 11:24 a.m by Dee Riggs
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/aug/23/winds-shifted-shortly-before-flames-overcame-firefighters/
From the article ( EMPHASIS is mine )…
———————————————————————-
Winds shifted 180 degrees on Engine 642 as it headed UP Woods Canyon Road.
Inside were four firefighters. The engine somehow went off the road on a curve as flames approached. Three of the firefighters were later found deceased, inside the fire engine, said John Phipps, lead on the Coordinated Response Protocol Team that is investigating the deaths. He spoke at a press conference Sunday afternoon at the Forest Service headquarters in Wenatchee.
———————————————————————-
So there again is that statement often repeated in reports and in the media that Engine 642 was headed UP Woods Canyon Road when it went off the road.
In the photographs and videos of the accident seen you can still see where the original investigators used ‘orange spray paint’ to mark the tire tracks of the Engine from the point where it left the road down to where it came to rest and was burned over.
These ‘tire tracks’ show clearly that Engine 642 exited the RIGHT side of the road and was heading DOWN the road when it went off to the RIGHT side of it.
CRAP lead John Phipps appears to even totally contradict this claim ( in the same interview ) just moments after this ‘UP the road’ scenario was stated.
Phipps said…
——————————————————————————–
“We don’t know who was driving the vehicle,” Phipps said. “It was pretty chaotic in there and people got in the engine to escape the fire and we don’t know who was where.”
——————————————————————————–
So Phipps then said ‘people got IN the engine to ESCAPE the fire”.
That’s not consistent with any claim that Engine 642 was heading UP Woods Canyon Road when it left the road.
And again… a few moments later… Phipps contradicts that ‘UP the road’ claim again…
———————————————————————————-
Phipps said he did not know if fire shelters were deployed close to the burned engine, but two shelters were deployed “toward the top of the fire.” That’s where other firefighters were working, in the same general area as Engine 642. Three of those firefighters were also burned, but their injuries are not life-threatening, Phipps said.
———————————————————————————–
Phipps said these ‘other firefighters’ ( who DEPLOYED and were BURNED ) were (quote) “working in the same general area as Engine 642”.
That’s also totally inconsistent with any claims that Engine 642 crashed while it was initially headed UP the road. If they crashed while going UP… then they wouldn’t have actually been ‘working’ in any area at all ( yet ).
Phipps also said…
———————————————————————-
In response to another question, he said he did not know if the engine had become high-centered.”It’s hard to determine because the area was fully involved in flames,” Phipps said. “We’re trying to reconstruct what may have been there. The fire removed a lot of vegetation.”
———————————————————————–
Speaking of ‘fully involved in flames’…
Dennis Kirkland’s public statements say clearly that even some good amount of time BEFORE the wind changed and during that moment when Okanogan County District Fire Chief Don Waller let him and a still-unknown volunteer firefighter go UP Woods Canyon Road to rescue Dennis’ dogs…
…the FLAMES were ALREADY ( according to Dennis Kirkland ) “quite close to the road”.
Dennis emphasized this point by saying that if a wind change had taken place while he and that volunteer firefighter were rescuing Dennis’ dogs that THEY could have easily been ‘trapped’.
So the timeframe here for ( as reported by Dennis Kirkland ) the FLAMES being “quite close to the road” was well BEFORE the wind change and DURING the time that Chief Don Waller let Dennis and that FF go up there to rescue Dennis’ dogs ( which they succeeded in doing ).
This testimony somehow sets up a scenario where even after Dennis and that FF returned and knew the flames were ALREADY (quote) “quite close to the road”, that someone still allowed Engine 642 to head UP that road, even with those conditions ALREADY present.
Here is what Dennis Kirkland actually said…
———————————————————————–
Mary Ann Kirkland drove down the steep dirt road as fast as she could, thinking to herself, “I hope I don’t hit a deer,” she remembers. “I didn’t see the fire because I was so focused on getting down the road. I didn’t process anything except for to get out of there. I was panicked. At that time I thought both my dogs were dead.”
In the mean time Dennis Kirkland, who had been in town working on their new house in Twisp, received a phone call about the fire from a friend and raced up Twisp River Road. On the way, despite spotty cell phone coverage, Mary Ann managed to get a call through to him, and pleaded with Dennis to rescue their dogs.
“I arrived at the road to see if I could gain access,” Dennis said. “Initially Don Waller wouldn’t let me go up — he said it was too dangerous.”
He stood with the fire chief, watching the fire from Twisp River Road for about 20 minutes, Dennis
estimates. Seeing that the fire wasn’t moving toward Woods Canyon Road, Waller asked a volunteer firefighter to take Dennis up the road in his truck to get the two dogs.
“Flames were quite close to the road,” Dennis recalls.
“We went up the road, grabbed the dogs, and got out of there within about 5 minutes.”
Shortly after they returned safely at the foot of the road, the wind direction changed and flames crossed over Woods Canyon Road. “Had the wind direction changed earlier, I could have been trapped,” Dennis said.
———————————————————————–
** TIMING IS KEY
My whole point here is that this is all about the TIMING of things that afternoon… and we still have no frickin’ idea what that all looked like.
Notice that Dennis Kirkland makes absolutely no mention of there being anyone else UP THERE on Woods Canyon Road ( yet ) when Chief Don Waller let him and this still-unnamed volunteer FF go up there to rescue Dennis’ dogs.
If that is/was the case… then that means all these FFs ( The DNR crew and Engine 642 ) were only sent UP there sometime AFTER this ‘dog rescue mission’… when Dennis reports that the flames were ALREADY “quite close to the road”.
Alternatively… if that DNR Dozer Crew and Engine 642 were, in fact, already UP THERE when Dennis Kirkland and that FF did this ‘dog rescue’… then did they relay this information to them that the flames were, in fact, already “quite close to the road” to those FFs that were still up there at the top and ( perhaps ) unable to know that?
BOTTOM LINE: I think it’s still important to resolve the timing of this Kirkland + FF ‘dog rescue mission’ with the timing of when that DNR Crew and Engine 642 were actually SENT up Woods Canyon Road. The TIMING there will say a lot about the ‘decision making’ that went down that afternoon.
Phipps also said…
———————————————————————
“It’s a myth that you can really figure out that so-and-so did something or so-and-so didn’t do that,” he said.
———————————————————————
Complete horseshit. ( as RTS has already pointed out below ).
It’s actually more than just horseshit. It’s ‘crazy talk’.
Phipps also said…
———————————————————————
“We want to shift from holding individuals accountable to an assumed perfect system, to an
understanding that we have excellent people operating in an imperfect system.”
———————————————————————
And that includes the possibility of ‘excellent people’ making BAD DECISIONS which might, in turn, indicate either BAD POLICIES in place, or BAD TRAINING… or BOTH.
What, exactly, is this ‘imperfect system’ Phipps even thinks he is admitting to?
No one in the ‘system’ ends up anywhere with an Engine or a Crew unless some PERSON has TOLD them that’s where they are supposed to be.
Phipps also said…
———————————————————————-
He added that, “the event was tragic enough without our response adding to it.”
———————————————————————-
Phipps actually seems to be saying that he has already performed the mental gymnastics required to believe that by telling the TRUTH about a ‘tragic’ incident, that you are only ADDING to the ‘tragedy’.
I certainly hope that doesn’t prove to be the case.
( The following is going to sound REALLY familiar )
Those families DESERVE to know exactly WHY things were ‘tragic enough already’ and WHY they had to bury their loved ones. The best way Phipps and company can ‘add to the tragedy’ will be to have this opportunity to find out exactly what happened… but then WITHHOLD that information from the families.
WTKTT,
Spot on once again. “Phipps actually seems to be saying that he has already performed the mental gymnastics required to believe that by telling the TRUTH about a ‘tragic’ incident, that you are only ADDING to the ‘tragedy’.” To me this goes along with what I have mentioned several times previously regarding the Federal-Agency-fatality-fire notion of “FIRST ESTABLISH A CONCLUSION, THEN FIND THE ‘FACTS’ TO FIT THAT CONCLUSION.’ They do NOT want to know the truth.
Albert Einstein said this about importance of seeking the truth: “THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH IMPLIES A DUTY. ONE MUST NOT CONCEAL ANY PART OF WHAT ONE HAS RECOGNIZED TO BE TRUE.”
Yes, the families especially need to know the truth and NOT some CRAP manipulated lies!
So if this is the same John Phipps I knew several years ago here in R4.
I would not respect any thing he said or follow him any where. He is a total
Ass Hole at least in my book. A very low grade in Fire suppression as well.
Perfect yes man for their investigation.
One of the interesting questions regarding these ‘fatality investigations’ and the ‘acronym soup’ they keep coming up with ( as in )…
SAIT = Special Alternate Information Team
CR(A)P = Coordinated Response ( Accident ) Protocol
…is WHO is actually PICKING the people to LEAD them.
I don’t think Mike Dudley and Jim Karels started jumping up and down following Yarnell waving to ‘higher ups’ saying “Oh please… pick me! Pick ME! I want to run that investigation!”.
Likewise for John Phipps and the TWISP thing.
I don’t think Phipps picked up his phone and called any ‘higher ups’ at USFS and said “Oh pretty please… can I lead that investigation?”.
Not a chance.
SOMEONE has been deciding “Those are OUR BOYS for this job!” and CHOOSING these people and using their own CRITERIA to make the choices.
We can guess who that SOMEONE is ( USFS Chief Cook and Bottle Washer Tom Tidwell? )… but no one has yet looked hard enough at the FORMATION of these ‘investigative teams’ following all these recent tragedies to say for sure what the actual PROCESS is for making the all-important choices about WHO is going to ‘run them’.
That PROCESS remains a ‘secret’.
Simple the process is picking their hand fed and trusted cronies.
Been like that for a long time.
Pick those that would never go outside the box like Ted Putnam did.
You are right about Ted and something I learned from Ted was that he knew he was risking his career for going after the truth and doing the right thing. He told me he had that decision to refuse to sign off on a short sighted report would cost him, even though he was pressured to do so. Too bad that we don’t have more men on those investigating committees with that strength of character, but instead we have people circulating BS and it seems the public and the fire fighting community is willing to stomach it. You just can not clean up a dirty thing but to paint it over as a proper investigation will never benefit those that need it most.
We have watched how Donut is touted to know enough to advise about firefighting even though his limited experience and talks have proven that wrong and we see Dudly and Willis talking about this fire and their contradictions we know that they have hope to cover up all the mistakes and stupid actions that were taken to kill so many young men. Donut barely got out by the skin of his teeth and only because a Blue Ridge man with experience enough saved him.
I don’t see any closure for the case at this time and I still think the truth will eventually surface. You do not have men dropping off in a certain death situation considering the weather and proximity of the fire without revealing how that came about. I believe Dr. Ted Putnam explained that human factors had plenty to do on this one considering that every rule in the firefighters manual was broken in order to kill those men.
I applaud WTKTT and all you knowledgeable men who contribute to the ongoing investigation. I realize my knowledge of firefighting is extremely limited having only helped my Dad contain lightning strikes when I was a kid. Those were forest strikes and I believe his quick action saved a bunch of forest and our mining camp as well. The rangers did not seem to happy that we did that, maybe they wanted the credit or maybe like the Yarnell fire they thought that it ought to be ok until they got around to putting that lightning strike out.
That mayor Kukendayhl said common sense goes a long ways. Too bad these fire teams did not have that and jump on the fire immediately. They had all the warnings, were firemen of repute and neglected to do what common sense should have made them do. Why they did not and why 19 men are dead begs to investigate the human factors involved here. You do not make that many screw ups as we saw in this case without knowing every reason for them. Disregard for taking care of an emergency case that later ballons into a full fledged fire that kills 19 young men and devastates families, homes and sickens people in its aftermath is not a thing to celebrate and hand out awards to those involved. Everyone in charge here that took any kind of a reward should be ashamed.
I am not happy seeing so many locals dead after the fire. I myself have now come down with lung problems and find myself unable to hike any distance. I would have hell making it up the first hill at this point and three heart stints and lungs that are not functioning right make me wonder if I might not be one of the next statistics we have had around here. Fifty plus deaths and we have been counting since the fire for civilians involved with the fire has skewed hell out of the bell curve. Something in that smoke and retardant does not agree with Yarnellites and I suspect that these 50 plus deaths since the Yarnell smoke out will be glossed over just as the 19 deaths of the young wildland firerfighters has been.
WTKTT,
They’re chosen based on their ‘loyalty’ to the ;Go Along to Get Along’ and ‘Don’t Rock the Boat’ principles to guarantee that the Agency gets its ‘factual’ report based on their principle of FIRST ESTABLISH A CONCLUSION, THEN FIND THE ‘FACTS’ TO FIT THAT CONCLUSION,
I recall when the Cramer Fire occurred on the Salmon-Challis NF in Idaho when two Helitack personnel died, one with his flight helmet still on, waiting for the helicopter to come rescue them. This is a link from the Colorado Firecamp, a VERY REPUTABLE and TRUSTWORTHY endeavor. It has virtually ALL of the Cramer Fire investigative documents and especially the coveted Management Evaluation Report (MAR) that is generally distributed to management only and NOT for public viewing.
At any rate, once notified of the Cramer Fire fatalities, a high level USFS official told his minions to “just find us someone to blame here, so we can put this behind us and move on..’ (PARAPHRASED) This was because these Cramer Fire fatalities were after the South Canyon Fire (1994) and the 30-Mile Fire (2001) when we were told this would NEVER happen again!
One can be as hopeful and ideological as one wants to be, however, these ‘Team Members’ or whatever they’re called, are basically hand picked to spew the ‘Party Line’ – whatever that predetermined ‘conclusion’ is.
The Cramer Fire reports from Colorado Firecamp
http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/Cramer/synopsis.htm
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
November 2, 2015 at 10:07 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> They’re chosen based on their ‘loyalty’ to the ‘Go Along
>> to Get Along’ and ‘Don’t Rock the Boat’ principles.
>>
>> One can be as hopeful and ideological as one wants
>> to be, however, these ‘Team Members’ or whatever
>> they’re called, are basically hand picked to spew
>> the ‘Party Line’ – whatever that predetermined
>> ‘conclusion’ is.
There is one other thing that “One can be” here…
…a concerned taxpayer.
This still isn’t ( as much as they might like it to be ) the fucking MAFIA… or the fucking MASONS… or a fucking PRIVATE CORPORATION… or all THREE rolled into ONE.
It’s a PUBLIC SERVICE organization where every salary, every piece of equipment, and every paperweight sitting on Tom Tidwell’s desk is paid for with PUBLIC MONEY.
At some point… guess who they have to ANSWER to?
Me ( and every other person giving them their money ).
No “ideology” there at all, really.
It’s just a FACT.
WTKTT,
I understand and agree completely, however, the vast majority of Executive Branch Agencies and their respective, associated bureaucrats rarely consider themselves as ‘PUBLIC SERVANTS’ any longer. They instead want to lord it over the ‘ignorant’ taxpayers because we’re not qualified or educated enough to understand so ‘the un-elected they’ must leave it in the hands of the ‘trained professionals.’
That’s a tough one because ‘they’ are appointed to their positions of power, not elected. So, we must continue to utilize our First Amendment rights and expose the truth wherever it is involving these incidents.And ALWAYS ignore they’re ‘Talking Points’ distributed by their (Dis)information Officers. Whenever there are ‘Talking Points’ – ‘they’ are trying to hide something.
RTS,
I understand and agree 100% with what you said here. It is good to see someone is pointing it out. And the only thing I would be inclined to add to it is this: That on a national level, the current state of what we have for watchdogs in the form of investigative reporting/journalism in this country is so tame now that what the public (and all those “taxpayers”) are getting anymore — when they actually do tune in — is primarily the “Talking Points” distributed by all the (Dis)information Officers regarding these incidents and not much else. It is rather chilling for me when considering that, if it were not for InvestigativeMEDIA, a considerable number of us would still be under the impression that the big bad fire came and got all those FF’s who were ‘where they were supposed to be while doing what they were supposed to do’.
Executive Branch Agencies and their respective, associated bureaucrats never had it so easy as it is currently when it comes to lording it over the ‘ignorant’ taxpayers.
J. Stout,
It really amazes and disturbs me that most people choose to be willingly ignorant and so accepting of whatever the Government provides them as being the truth. In most cases, I think they know it’s not the truth but just go on believing it is the truth because their Government officials, elected and appointed, these alleged ‘Public Servants’ wouldn’t actually lie to them. They would never do that, would they?
Aldous Huxley said in the forward of his novel, ‘Brave New World Revisited,’ said “People will willingly accept their servitude as long as you feed them.” They’re continually being fed lies.
What ever happened to those that use to bow their neck and say enough of this it is not right and gives no indication of lessons learned I know there are a few out there in high positions that ant happy with this.
There always are some state some Region some Forest. Its time to stand up step forward and put things right.
Type 1 IC’s where are you????
WTKTT You have the greatest description of how this yarnell investigation was navigated==Don’t rock the boat so they rocked a proper investigation. Do you think they will ever come clean==someone calls it double speak, the Indians called it forked tongue. I caught a rattler the other day–Joy has a photo of me holding it around the neck and it damn sure has a forked toungue hanging out there.
Reply to Sonny post on
November 4, 2015 at 11:53 pm
>> Sonny asked…
>>
>> Do you think they will ever come clean?
I think these men and women are such cowards and of such low moral character that ONLY a Court case and the threat of perjury and jail time will ever make them all ‘do the right thing’ and tell everything they know.
**
** TWISP FIRE ( WOODS CANYON ROAD ) DOZER OPERATOR’S NAME
** APPEARS TO BE ‘CUTTER RAINS’
It was pretty obvious that the Washington Department of Natural Resources didn’t want to name the bulldozer operator who was involved in the ‘Woods Canyon Road’ incident ( and was injured )… because while they named their own 2 DNR employees in their own press release on August 23, 2015 ( 4 days after the incident ), they withheld the name of the contracted dozer operator who was also injured along with their employees.
Well… looks like others at the Washington DNR agency didn’t ‘get that memo’.
About a week after that DNR ‘press release’ where they named their own employees ( Reed Callis and Donald Smith )… someone at the Washington DNR agency itself posted a PUBLIC Twitter message asking people to please send ‘Healing messages’ to the DNR people who were involved in the Twisp incident.
But this person then also NAMED the bulldozer operator ( Cutter Rains ).
At 2:48 PM on September 3, 2015, the following PUBLIC TWEET was made by someone using the handle ‘waDNR_fire’…
https://twitter.com/wadnr_fire/status/639555570622590976
The content of that PUBLIC TWEET is as follows…
———————————————————————–
waDNR_fire @waDNR_fire
waDNR_fire Retweeted UW Medicine
Send healing messages to injured firefighters Donny Smith, Reed Callis & Cutter Rains to fireinformation (at) dnr.wa.gov
———————————————————————–
** CUTTER CHARLES RAINS
According to his own PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page… this ‘Cutter Charles Rains’ who lives just EAST of the town of ‘Twisp, Washington’ is, in fact, a ‘heavy equipment operator’.
Cutter Rains’ PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/cutter.rains
From: Malott, Washington
Lives in: Malott, Washington
Studied at: Washington State University
NOTE: Malott, Washington is just EAST of the town of ‘Twisp’ in Okanogan County, Washington, and actually located on Highway 97 which follows the Okanogan River.
Here is what Cutter Charles Rains says about himself on his
PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ About page…
—————————————————————————————-
i love to shoot guns ride horses drive truck and operate heavy equipment. but the most important thing in this world to me is my friends and family who i will do anything for, and me and Griff-dawg say “a friend will help you kill someone, a true friend will help you dispose of the body”.
—————————————————————————————-
So that would appear to make the following the FULL LIST of names of the 2 DNR employees ( HEQB and HEQB Trainee ) and the 1 DNR contractor ( dozer operator ) who were working at the TOP of Woods Canyon Road and had to ‘deploy’ on August 19 2015…
DNR Employee: Donald Smith
DNR Employee: Reed Callis
DNR Contractor ( Dozer Operator ): Cutter Charles Rains.
Also… according to established rules for investigating any/all DEPLOYMENTS… whatever went on there at the TOP of Woods Canyon Road with these 2 DNR employees and the 1 DNR contractor is supposed to be investigated as a SEPARATE INCIDENT and is supposed to end up with its’ own ‘reports’… especially since all THREE men involved in this separate ‘deployment’ incident were actually sent to the HOSPITAL and at least one of them remained hospitalized overnight.
We will see what the USFS report has to say about this ‘other deployment incident’ there at the TOP of Woods Canyon Road and whether it really had anything to do with the fatalities on that same road on that same afternoon.
Followup…
There actually was no need for me to even put the qualifier “APPEARS TO BE”
in the title of the previous message.
The NAME of the Washington Department of Natural Resources ( DNR ) contractor who was the bulldozer operator up on Woods Canyon Road on August 19, 2015 ( and who WAS burned badly enough to have to go to the hospital ) was, in fact…
Cutter Rains.
As it turns out… whoever was doing ‘interweb’ stuff for DNR who didn’t get the ‘memo’ about not releasing that contractor’s name publicly seems to be the same person who actually updated the official “Twisp River Memorial” site page that is telling the public how to send ‘condolences’ to the families, and ‘well wishes’ to the injured.
That PUBLIC page is here…
Page Title: Twisp River Fire Memorial – To Send Condolences…
http://twispriverfirememorial.blogspot.com/p/to-send-condolances.html
From that PUBLIC page…
———————————————————————–
To email the families of injured Washington DNR firefighters Donny
Smith & Reed Callis or DNR contractor Cutter Rains, send to:
Fireinformation (at) dnr.wa.gov
If you would like to mail condolence cards to the families of the injured DNR firefighters, send to:
Washington State Department of Natural Resources
Fire Communication
To: [NAME]
1111 Washington Street SE
MS 47003
Olympia, WA 98504-7003
——————————————————————————-
Notice that on THIS page… whoever typed that text and the ‘Cutter Rains’ name made sure to make it CLEAR that Cutter Rains was, in fact, the DNR Contractor that was injured that day.
Just one more independent confirmation that the NAMES of the 2 DNR employees and the 1 DNR Contractor that were injured on Woods Canyon Road on August 19, 2015 were…
DNR Employee: Donald Smith
DNR Employee: Reed Callis
DNR Contractor ( Dozer Operator ): Cutter Charles Rains.
The following is a photo that was taken at the Twisp Fire Memorial Service and posted on the Washington Department of Natural Resources PUBLIC Facebook page.
Someone from DNR set up three PLACARDS on STANDS at the memorial service with the NAMES of all the DNR injured FFs on them so that people could ‘sign’ these things and send them ‘well wishes’…
https://www.facebook.com/273352136518/photos/a.278074791518.142319.273352136518/10153137758856519/
The NAMES of each of the three DNR FFs who were also burned badly enough to all be sent to the hospital that day are clearly PRINTED at the TOP of each of the three large PLACARDS.
Here’s a Twisp Canyon Fire update:
The shelter deployments referred to by CRAP Team Leader John Phipps, in the Wenatchee World article involved cited below, involved THREE WFF DEPLOYING IN TWO FIRE SHELTERS. Do the math. That means TWO WFF were in one fire shelter, DEFINITELY not standard procedure.
These individuals consisted of a Dozer Boss, a Dozer Boss Trainee, and a contract Dozer Operator.
And remember, these individuals were on the RIGHT FLANK ” toward the top of the fire somewhere” when and where they FAILED TO IMPLEMENT AND FOLLOW the REQUIRED LCES.
Sounds like the Dozer Operator was not issued a Shelter?????
Bob,
I’m thinking you may be correct because of the three, he would be the one least likely to have one, especially in an Initial Attack capacity.
I found this article particularly interesting, instructive, and germane to the issue of Acting GMHS Superintendent Steed ‘following orders’ and leaving their perfectly good Safety Zone and taking the Crew into the Hinges of Hell and to their deaths.
http://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-blog-about-military-matters/68973251-the-morality-of-obeying-stupid-orders
It’s titled ” The morality of obeying stupid orders” written by John Reed, a West Point graduate and former Vietnam war Platoon leader in his ‘blog about military matters.’
It basically states, in the military, that one MUST follow orders unless they are ‘unlawful.’ Stupid orders are NOT included. The WFF agencies, being QUASI-MILITARY, have a similar creed, in that one must follow orders UNLESS they are ILLEGAL, UNSAFE, IMMORAL, OR UNETHICAL.: The STUPID Rule does NOT apply here either and that’s where the “How to Properly Refuse Risk’ comes in (IRPG p. 19).
I think it’s definitely worth reading Reed’s article on “The morality of following stupid orders” is well worth reading to better understand why Steed may have abandoned his utmost responsibility to protect those he supervised and ultimately left the good black.
That one on obeying stupid orders has to be a part of the human factor. They got rid of the original creed of the GMHS but I think Joy still has a photo I had her take of it. It reads similar and says a GMHS must strickly obey orders and it makes no mention of stupid orders in it but implies that you are more or less under a military regimen–to disobey definitely would cost you.
At only $10 to $20 bucks an hour… NO ONE has to ALWAYS obey anyone.
That is just one step above “Do you want fries with that?”.
Bob,
I screwed up. I meant to say “of the three, he would have been the most likely to NOT have a fire shelter.”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on November 2, 2015 at 12:01 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here’s a Twisp Canyon Fire update:
>> The shelter deployments referred to by CRAP Team Leader John Phipps,
>> in the Wenatchee World article involved cited below, involved THREE WFF
>> DEPLOYING IN TWO FIRE SHELTERS. Do the math. That means
>> TWO WFF were in one fire shelter, DEFINITELY not standard procedure.
>>
>> These individuals consisted of a Dozer Boss, a Dozer Boss Trainee,
>> and a contract Dozer Operator.
We actually know exactly who the two DNR employees were.
The Washington State Department of Natural Resources themselves NAMED their TWO employees that were involved in this other ‘shelter deployment’ incident at the top of Woods Canyon Road.
They did it in a PUBLIC press release published on their PUBLIC website just 4 days after the August 19, 2015 fatalities.
They did not name the ‘DNR contractor’ ( Dozer operator? ) at that time.
DNR Employee: Donald Smith
DNR Employee: Reed Callis
DNR Contractor ( Dozer Operator ): Still unnamed as of August 23, 2015
Washington State Department of Natural Resources
Press Release Title: Injured DNR firefighters recovering
Published: August 23, 2015 ( 4 days after the fatalities )
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/news/injured-dnr-firefighters-recovering
From this ‘press release’…
—————————————————————————————
Two Washington State Department of Natural Resources (DNR) wildland firefighters, who were injured on Aug. 19 as they fought a fire near Twisp, are recuperating.
DNR employee Donald Smith was treated and released the day of the incident,
while Reed Callis was kept overnight and released the next day.
A contractor working with the DNR fire team also has been released from the hospital. Three U.S. Forest Service employees were killed and a fourth seriously injured when they were overrun by flames on the same day.
“While grateful that our colleagues are home, it is still a sad time.” said Commissioner of Public Lands Peter Goldmark.
“Our hearts go out to the families and friends of the three Forest Service firefighters killed by this fire. We continue to keep the injured Forest Service firefighter, Daniel Lyon, in our thoughts.”
No additional details about the injured DNR firefighters or contractor are being released by the agency at this time.
Media Contact: Carrie McCausland, Deputy Communications Director
Phone: 360-902-1523
Email: carrie.mccausland (at) dnr.wa.gov.
—————————————————————————————
Followup…
** SEATTLE TIMES ALSO NAMED THE DNR EMPLOYEES
The very same day ( August 23, 2015 ), the Seattle Times also ‘named’ the two DNR employees who were injured at the TOP of Woods Canyon Road and they also provided a little more detail about them such as where they were ‘from’. The ‘contractor’ remained unnamed but he was apparently 47 years old ( according to the Seattle Times ).
According to this article, Injured DNR employee Donald Smith ( of Omak ) was released from one hospital the day of the incident itself… but then had to go BACK into another hospital in Seattle.
The Seattle Times
Article Title: Investigators hope to learn what went wrong from
critically injured firefighter
Published August 23, 2015 at 4:01 pm, Updated August 24, 2015 at 2:51 pm
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/investigators-hope-to-learn-what-went-wrong-from-critically-injured-firefighter/
From the article…
———————————————————————–
Two state Department of Natural Resources employees who were also injured by the fire were operating a bulldozer higher up the canyon. They apparently deployed emergency shelters. Reed Callis of Forks was kept overnight and released the next day. Donald Smith of Omak was treated and released from a hospital the day of the incident, but a woman reached at his house said he was later hospitalized in Seattle. A DNR contractor also was hospitalized. Harborview said a 47-year-old firefighter was in satisfactory condition on Sunday.
—————————————————————————
Followup…
** OMAK CHRONICLE ARTICLE ALSO NAMES THE DNR EMPLOYEES
This article contained a reference to a ‘statement’ from DNR Employee Reed Callis, who only said he was recovering from his injuries and wasn’t granting any interviews.
NOTE: Apparently, the Okanogan County Coroner was under the mistaken impression that SEVEN firefighters actually ‘survived’ the same CRASH that killed the other THREE.for whom he was now reporting the ’cause of death’..
The Omak-Okanogan County Chronicle
Article Title: Causes of death: Smoke, burns
Published: Friday, August 28, 2015
http://www.omakchronicle.com/news/2015/aug/28/death-certificates-filed-firemen/
——————————————————————————–
OKANOGAN — The three firemen killed Aug. 19 in the Twisp River Fire died from smoke inhalation and burns to their bodies.
According to Okanogan County Coroner Dave Rodriguez, SEVEN SURVIVED a crash in which their fire engine went over an embankment. But three died from the fiery inferno that overtook them.
Andrew Zajac, 26, of Winthrop, Tom Zbyszewski, 20, of Walla Walla, and Richard Wheeler, 31, of South Haven, Mich., were killed in the incident.
Daniel Lyon, 25, of Puyallup, remains hospitalized in intensive care at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle. Hospital officials said he has burns over 60 percent of his body.
Reed Callis, age not disclosed, of Forks, and Donald Smith, age and hometown not released, were treated and released.
“I’m recovering from the injuries I suffered,” Callis told the Port Angeles-based Peninsula Daily News on Thursday. At this time, I’m not going to take any interviews.”
Information on the other firemen, a Department of Natural Resources contractor, surviving the incident has yet to be released by the U.S. Forest Service, which is conducting its own investigation of the deaths.
—————————————————————————————
** THE PENINSULA DAILY NEWS INTERVIEW WITH
** DNR EMPLOYEE REED CALLIS
And here is that ‘Peninsula Daily News’ article being referenced in the ‘Omak Okanogan County Chronicle’ article mentioned above…
The Peninsula Daily News
Article Title: Forks firefighter injured in Twisp wildfire recovering at home
Published: August 28. 2015 10:22 AM by James Casey
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20150828/NEWS/308289978
From the article…
—————————————————————————
FORKS — A state Department of Natural Resources firefighter from Forks who was injured near Twisp is recovering at his home.
Reed Callis declined to comment Thursday on the events of Aug. 19 beyond saying: “I’m recovering from the injuries I suffered. At this time, I’m not going to take any interviews.”
Callis also said Thursday he had not yet discussed the incident with his supervisors.
The DNR said Callis was hospitalized overnight after the incident and released Aug. 20, but the agency provided no further details.
“We’re not providing any additional detail about our firefighters at this time so that they are able to focus on their recovery,” Carrie McCausland, DNR’s deputy communications director, said Wednesday.
Three National Forest Service wildland firefighters died in a truck that was overtaken by flames in the fire near Twisp known as the Okanogan Complex Fire.
—————————————————————————
WTKTT,
Thanks for following through with the details in your usual fashion.
See new post above.
** DOZER OPERATOR WAS CUTTER RAINS
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-314200
It’s obvious that DNR didn’t want to name the dozer operator but some numbskull at DNR didn’t get that memo’ and NAMED him ( Cutter Rains ) in a PUBLIC TWEET that was asking the PUBLIC to send “Healing messages’ to the 3 DNR people who were injured on Woods Canyon Road…
…and then proceeded to NAME all THREE of them.
I think it’s a given that ‘Cutter Rains’ would not have had his own fire shelter that day.
What is NOT a given is HOW those 3 got up where they were.
Did they ALL ‘ride the dozer’ all the frickin’ way up Woods Canyon Road at some point to that place at the TOP of it where they ended up scrambling for their lives?
If this was a DNR HEQB and a ‘trainee’ and a dozer operator… I guess it stands to reason that YES… they would ( all three of them ) have actually been ‘onboard’ the dozer.
In other words… there was no other non-dozer VEHICLE up there at the top of Woods Canyon Road for them to have ‘escaped’ in when the time came to do that.
All they would have had was the ‘slow-ass dozer’ as a VEHICLE.
It’s also a mystery if the other Engine that would then CRASH on the way DOWN Woods Canyon Road ever made it all the way up to where this DNR dozer crew was actually working.
If they did… then what does that mean?
Does that mean they ( the Engine Crew ) just took off and LEFT THEM up there without even trying to stuff them into their own Engine and get them back down to Twisp River Road?
Many questions.
WTKTT,
USUALLY, a Dozer Boss (DOZB) or now Heavy Equipment Boss (HEQB) has their own vehicle, sometimes an ATV or UTV as well, so it’s pretty unlikely they were actually riding on the dozer. Although it IS possible because they were DNR employees and they do things a little bit different.
The only thing we do know is they were on the right flank but do not know how high up they actually were other than “:toward the top of the fire somewhere.”
The Type 6 Engine was LIKELY a 6-passenger cab and chassis so they COULD have “stuffed” a few, if not all, of those DNR dozer firefighters in there. However, each WFF and each WFF resource is responsible for their own LCES and remember, those on the right flank were not playing by The WFF Rules.
Time will tell.
**
** TWISP FIRE ( WOODS CANYON ROAD ) DOZER OPERATOR’S NAME
** APPEARS TO BE ‘CUTTER RAINS’
It was pretty obvious that the Washington Department of Natural Resources didn’t want to name the bulldozer operator who was involved in the ‘Woods Canyon Road’ incident ( and was injured )… because while they named their own DNR employees in their own press release, they withheld the name of the contracted dozer operator.
Well… looks like others at the Washington DNR agency didn’t ‘get that memo’.
About a week after that DNR ‘press release’ where they named their own employees ( Reed Callis and Donald Smith )… someone at the Washington DNR agency itself posted a PUBLIC Twitter message asking people to please send ‘Healing messages’ to the DNR people who were involved in the Twisp incident.
But this person then also NAMED the bulldozer operator ( Cutter Rains ).
At 2:48 PM on Septermber 3, 2015, the following PUBLIC TWEET was made by someone using the handle ‘waDNR_fire’…
https://twitter.com/wadnr_fire/status/639555570622590976
The content of that PUBLIC TWEET is as follows…
———————————————————————–
waDNR_fire @waDNR_fire
waDNR_fire Retweeted UW Medicine
Send healing messages to injured firefighters Donny Smith, Reed Callis & Cutter Rains to fireinformation (at) dnr.wa.gov
———————————————————————–
** CUTTER CHARLES RAINS
According to his own PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page… this ‘Cutter Charles Rains’ who lives just EAST of the town of ‘Twisp, Washington’ is, in fact, a ‘heavy equipment operator’.
Cutter Rains’ PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/cutter.rains
From: Malott, Washington
Lives in: Malott, Washington
Studied at: Washington State University
NOTE: Malott, Washington is just EAST of the town of ‘Twisp’ in Okanogan County, Washington, and actually located on Highway 97 which follows the Okanogan River.
Here is what Cutter Charles Rains says about himself on his
PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ About page…
—————————————————————————————-
i love to shoot guns ride horses drive truck and operate heavy equipment. but the most important thing in this world to me is my friends and family who i will do anything for, and me and Griff-dawg say “a friend will help you kill someone, a true friend will help you dispose of the body”.
—————————————————————————————-
So that would appear to make the following the FULL LIST of names of the 2 DNR employees ( HEQB and HEQB Trainee ) and the 1 DNR contractor ( dozer operator ) who were working at the TOP of Woods Canyon Road and had to ‘deploy’ on August 19 2015…
DNR Employee: Donald Smith
DNR Employee: Reed Callis
DNR Contractor ( Dozer Operator ): Cutter Charles Rains.
Followup…
It’s actually confirmed. The DNR contractor ( dozer operator ) that day WAS ‘Cutter Rains’.
It ( clearly ) says so right on the following PUBLIC page dedicated to sending ‘condolences’ to the families of the fallen and the injured…..
Page Title: Twisp River Fire Memorial – To Send Condolences…
http://twispriverfirememorial.blogspot.com/p/to-send-condolances.html
From that PUBLIC page…
———————————————————————–
To email the families of injured Washington DNR firefighters Donny
Smith & Reed Callis or DNR contractor Cutter Rains, send to:
Fireinformation (at) dnr.wa.gov
If you would like to mail condolence cards to the families of the injured DNR firefighters, send to:
Washington State Department of Natural Resources
Fire Communication
To: [NAME]
1111 Washington Street SE
MS 47003
Olympia, WA 98504-7003
——————————————————————————-
Notice that on THIS page… whoever typed that text and the ‘Cutter Rains’ name made sure to make it CLEAR that Cutter Rains was, in fact, the DNR Contractor that was injured that day.
Just one more independent confirmation that the NAMES of the 2 DNR employees and the 1 DNR Contractor that were injured on Woods Canyon Road on August 19, 2015 were…
DNR Employee: Donald Smith
DNR Employee: Reed Callis
DNR Contractor ( Dozer Operator ): Cutter Charles Rains.
The following is a photo that was taken at the Twisp Fire Memorial Service and posted on the Washington Department of Natural Resources PUBLIC Facebook page.
Someone from DNR set up three PLACARDS on STANDS at the memorial service with the NAMES of all the DNR injured FFs on them so that people could ‘sign’ these things and send them ‘well wishes’…
https://www.facebook.com/273352136518/photos/a.278074791518.142319.273352136518/10153137758856519/
The NAMES of each of the three DNR FFs who were also burned badly enough to all be sent to the hospital that day are clearly PRINTED at the TOP of each of the three large PLACARDS.
I have learned a great deal about a subject I thought I already knew very well over the last two years. For one thing, apparently there is more than one way to run a hotshot crew. Who knew?
There is more than enough information on this thread to form the framework for a book about the “real” story of the Yarnell Hill Fire. IF anybody has the time and motivation to do so.
Unfortunately, that same person should also understand they wouldn’t make any money or even receive any acclaim for their efforts and be willing accept those conditions. A book that tells the truth about the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots would have a very small following. And in fact, that person would even have to be willing to be hated and vilified for doing so.
The original narrative of the Yarnell Hill Fire remains intact. Nobody did anything wrong. And maybe that is the way it should be. That’s how America prefers its stories, especially its movies. Nobody wants to pay money to see a bummer that brings you down.
That’s why The Martian is getting audience applause after almost every showing. Even the few people who watched the last showing in the middle of the week after it had been out for some time (I have been in enough loud and nasty arguments with asshole’s who talk and text during a movie, although it still happens sometimes) with me applauded. Isn’t America great?
It goes like this. There was a force of good and a force of evil. The two collided on a field of battle. The force of evil won a temporary victory over the force of good. But in the end, the force of good triumphed over the force of evil because they were called to a higher purpose in a better place. And as a bonus, they even got some bitchin’ bronze statues and marble white crosses to mark the place where they fell… before they were risen again.
God Bless America!
Gary,
Yes, there is more than the ‘Mighty Coconino’ way to run a Hot Shot Crew. We definitely had two different ways of running our Crews. We were on the same fire on the Wasatch=Cache NF in northern Utah in 198-, when you had Happy Jack and I was detailed to Pleasant Valley. The Plans Chief made the statement that he had our Crews on other fires and “Happy Jack wasn’t very happy and Pleasant Valley wasn’t very pleasant.”
Do you remember being asked who wanted to work night shifts? I definitely did NOT want to work nights. Your response was something like, ‘I don’t care, we’ll do whatever you want us to do or need’ or something like that. And so you go the night shifts.
I had no problem challenging Teams and /or overhead. I was NOT a ‘go along to get along’ kind of guy, nor was anyone on any of the Crews I supervised. Definitely not popular with the Teams at times and other times, the Teams and overhead were okay with it. One of my favorite quotes over the years is from Winston Churchill: “You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood for something in your life.” I was NOT then and am NOT now a ‘Team Player.’ If needed, I rocked the boat at every opportunity AND got the job done and got it done safely.
All of us knew the WFF Rules by heart, frontwards and backwards, by number and verbatim. And I even had my share of Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes a few times, like everyone else, however, I learned very quickly NEVER to do THAT again. We ALWAYS had or left Lookouts as required. We NEVER left Safety Zones when the fire weather and fire behavior were increasing and/or the potential to increase. There were plenty of times, overhead asked, requested, or ordered us to do so and every time we said no. We took ESCAPE ROUTES TO SAFETY ZONES, NEVER from a safety Zone. The GMHS totally perverted that one. Being in a perfectly good Safety Zone and then leaving at the worst possible time notifying Air Attack we’re “making our way along our Escape Route” and “our Escape Route has been cut off.” WTF!
And once again, Groupthink and The Abilene Paradox were alive and well that day – and likely other days – and heavily contributed to their deaths. But wait, I forgot, they did everything right that day, yet 19 men died that day. I forgot the SAIT and SAIR concluded that there was “NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL.” SAIR Executive Summary (2013) p. 4
Typo. Should read “in northern Utah in 1980”
FUCKIN’ A! God Bless America…the Wasatch Cache NF in northern Utah in 1980! I remember damn near not making it off the mountain on foot the snow was so deep and coming down so heavy. And then barely making it back to fire camp in the 6×6 Deuce and a Half the snow and mud were so bad from the drop point lower down.
Only fire I ever got snowed out on in the middle of summer. I have a couple of photos I will dig out and post on my web site tonight after we get back from the movies. What great memories…thanks.
And no…I have never, and I would never…describe you as someone who was afraid to rock the fuckin’ boat! Compared to me…you were a bona fided rebel! I was the Bill Buck “Sounds Good” (even when it sounded like complete shit) Gung Ho, can-do company man by comparison!
Although honestly…I didn’t know anybody actually fought fire safely, I thought everybody were as fuckin’ crazy as we were (my experience was really pretty narrow and specific).
I have learned a lot about safety since I have been on this thread reading what you and Bob have written. I thought all of the safety rules were just general guidelines that were mostly optional…most of the time.
BUT…in my defense, I started admitting you and Bob were right and I was wrong way last year. Let me say it once again…the Bill Buck Way on the Mighty Coconino was seriously flawed and even Bill Buck admitted that after the Battlement Creek Fire (I actually have it in writing, but I didn’t know he admitted it for 30 years…so it never slowed down my cowboy shoot from the hip style) which will be detailed in my much anticipated tome, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods.”
That is why I have so much survivor guilt. I was worse than Eric Marsh. But luckily, I never faced a fire as unforgiving as the Yarnell Hill Fire, or had as much pressure on me as he did to produce so much in such a narrow window of time.
Other than that, I agree with everything you wrote above, I have learned there was more than one way to run a hotshot crew…there is the right way, and the Mighty Coconino Bill Buck Way!
I think that might have been the Basin Fire, but I will check my fire records when I look for the photos.
The fire on the Wasatch Cache in 1980 was the Murdoch Basin. Here are some photos. Not of the fire because as RTS said, we were working the night shift.
But the first three are of the fire camp. The last three are out by the highway after they evacuated us from the fire camp because the snow was falling so heavy and was getting so deep.
The fire was a lot higher in elevation than the fire camp and the fire camp was a lot higher than the highway were they took us to for us to wait for buses to take us back to Salt Lake City to fly out of once the fire was snowed in. The snow started falling in the middle of night…very heavy in the summer time. Weird.
The last photo is a bonus because I know everybody wants to know what I looked like in 1974 when I went to work for the Prescott at age 19 as a real smart ass. A little stroll down memory lane.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
And in case any of my old buddies from the Prescott are reading this blog. From right to left,
1. Shorty
2. Tom Lyman
3. Me
4. Tom Tobin
5. Darrell Tersey
Pretty fuckin’ good from memory right? Now why don’t one of you guys reach out to me at [email protected] and tell me what I want to know.
Tom…we used to be pretty tight, just look how I am pushing your neck with my forearm, we are obviously good buddies and you know we were. We raised some hell.
Now…I know the Arizona Speaker of the House, Representative Andy Tobin, who set up the Granite Mountain Hotshot State Park is your nephew, or brother, or son or something close to you.
And you retired as the Forest Dispatcher ( I think or Assistant?) you know everything that happened on that cursed fire How about sharing for old times sake? I am one of you (sort of…close enough for govt. work)…right?
whoops, I meant my other right.
OK…let me try this one more time. The names go with the photo from LEFT to RIGHT.
And Tom…Andy Tobin probably isn’t your son, I think you just had daughters, but I am sure he is somebody close to you. You know everything, you worked in the dispatch office.
Gary,
Thanks for remembering the name; Murdoch Basin. I recall the deuce and a half rides being extremely bumpy and rough and that the National Guard drivers were actually ‘trainees’ with the firefighters as their guinea pigs. After the first few rides, we decided it was more comfortable, a lot safer, and just as fast for us to hike from the Fire camp to the fireline and back each night.
The word came down from Fire Camp to the National Guard Armory we stayed in, that we were going to rape and pillage Salt Lake City that night. We had a good time in SLC that night trying our best to get drunk on 3.2% beer and chase Mormon women.
Regarding the WFF Rules, former USFS Fire Director Jerry Williams has some good pointers. “‘The Fire Orders … [must be routinely observed and relied upon to stay out of trouble.] and ENTRAPMENT AVOIDANCE MUST BE OUR PRIMARY EMPHASIS.”
“THE TEN STANDARD FIRE ORDERS ARE NOT AN OBSTACLE TO GETTING THE JOB DONE, INSTEAD, THEY ARE THE WAY TO GET IT DONE RIGHT. … WHEN THE UNEXPECTED HAPPENS, THE FIRE ORDERS ASSUME THEIR REAL VALUE. AND BECAUSE THE UNEXPECTED DOES HAPPEN, WE MUST BE DISCIPLINED IN OBSERVING THE FIRE ORDERS, DAY IN, [AND] DAY OUT.” … THE TEN STANDARD FIREFIGHTING ORDERS ARE THE MEASURE AGAINST WHICH OUR PERFORMANCE AS PROFESSIONALS SHOULD BE JUDGED. IT IS TIME WE USED THE FIRE ORDERS AS AS …. CRITERIA FOR MEASURING OUR FIREFIGHTING PERFORMANCE.”
Taken from Fire Management Today, volume 62 (3), Summer 2002
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/fmt62-3.pdf
And yet the YH Fire SAIT and SAIR used NO such logic in deciding there was “NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL.” ABSURD!
You are preachin’ to a choir member now….Amen and Hallelujah!
And once again, thanks for the memories from the Wasatch Cache.
I never wanted to give anyone the impression I was a rebel. I was far from it…I was a “Thank you Sir…may I have another.’ and a “We like it…we love it…we want more of it!” kind of hotshot.
That is why the Scott Fire was nothing more than a blip on my radar screen even though my entire crew was sent home on a specially chartered jet in the middle of the fire.
Everybody knew if that fucking asshole fire boss, and his asshole line boss crossed my line, they were out of bounds. I was a hard core company man and a Bill Buck clone. Oorah!
Gary,
I always had the utmost respect for Bill Buck and his wildland fire beliefs and philosophies and still do. One of the things I remember most was all WFF had to spend at least three years on a Hot Shot Crew to get all you basics down, THEN you were eligible to go on to other resources, like Engines or Helitack or whatever.
There have been plenty of fires where we turned down assignments, with options, The Team either accepted our ‘option(s)’ or they didn’t. If they didn’t, we often got shipped off to ‘Division Siberia’ to mop up where it had been ‘cold out’ for a week or more. And then most times, demobbed home.
And this was LONG before today’s ‘How to Properly Refuse Risk’ formerly known as the ‘Turn Down Prootocol.’
I continue to be surprised by the differences in our hotshot experience. With me, as a Bill Buck wannabe, there was only one way to do things, the Bill Buck Way.
And of course I took that philosophy with me to Santa Fe, but that is what they wanted because the Coconino hotshot crews had a big rep, at least in R3, or at least in our own minds.
As I have said several times, my wildland firefighting experience was limited (I didn’t really see much fire on my first year with Prescott) to fires as a hotshot under the leadership and philosophy of Bill Buck whether he was there or not. And he almost never was, since he was the biggest name in the nation as a Type 1 Incident Commander during most of my time as a hotshot.
I don’t even know how to describe what that was exactly, but everyone I knew either loved, feared and respected the man, or hated, feared and respected the man.
I have mentioned him so many times in my ramblings on this thread, I feel obligated to post a couple of photos of him so you can see legendary Bill Buck…the Marine.
One is of him competing in the Coconino Wildland Firefighter Gladiator Competition and the other one is of him calling in an air strike to level a village (just joking of course, it was taken on a fire in southern California). I think it was the Laguna Fire back in the old days…even for me.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
And I hate (not really, I am happy to) to bring this up again because we, as a group have gone round and round on this point with most people disagreeing with me but…
Because I know how the hotshot culture generally functions, I do not assign any blame whatsoever to any squad boss, senior crewman or crewmember for the tragedy that befell the GMIHC.
My father made a mistake at work, and it cost him his life. My grandfather made a mistake at work and it cost him his life. I have made many mistakes at work that could have cost me my life. I don’t believe that 17 out of the 19 GMIHC made any mistakes that cost them their lives.
They did what hotshots do. They followed orders from their crew boss and assistant crew boss. That works successfully 99.999 etc., per cent of the time. And if you are playing the odds, which we all do in life, even if we are walking to the corner grocery store for a quart of milk on a sidewalk on a nice day during the middle of the afternoon in a safe neighborhood, there is always some risk and we play the odds that we will make it back home safe and sound.
The crew did the right thing, the crew managers made a catastrophic error in judgment. I read the other day where Mrs. Beno Marsh made some comments about her husband’s “accident.” What happened to the GMIHC was no accident. They chose to ignore almost all of the rules during a dynamic fire storm without a backup plan because they thought the rules designed to keep wildland firefighters safe were “hillbilly.” That isn’t an accident. It’s a deliberate act.
The verdict is in on the Blackhawk helicopter crash that killed 11 service members including 7 elite Marine Raiders off the coast of Florida a few months ago. The news report say’s in part, “The pilots of a Black Hawk military helicopter that crashed last March, killing all 11 service members aboard, had disobeyed direct orders by flying into worsening weather, according to an investigation report.”
http://news.yahoo.com/report-pilots-deadly-black-hawk-crash-disobeyed-orders-170210034.html
I can’t find the quote right now, but the USFS spokesperson was quoted saying something about how they don’t want to add to the pain of the Twisp, WA, incident by assigning blame. I can’t believe this country as a whole and Congress in particular is letting the USFS (and others) get away with crap that nobody would be willing to let the NTSB or anyone else like the military get away with.
Here is a clue. If the military can’t even get away with it because it is so blatantly wrong…it is probably really, really, really, the wrong thing to do. When is it going to change?
And as far as the Sheriff of Okanogan County goes, he is an ELECTED official by the voters of that county. He and his office had two choices, he could produce a report that is going to;
1. Piss everybody in his county off, or
2. Make everybody in his county grateful they have such and experienced and wise sheriff protecting them.
Is anybody surprised he went with the latter one? Sheriff’s offices are notoriously politically correct. I did start off my law enforcement career by working for a relatively large and professional sheriff’s office, and our sheriff was NOTORIOUS for doing the wrong thing to make voters happy.
There have been at least three wildland firefighter safety foundations started by the families of the GMIHC..If they really want to make a difference, they would be contacting every political representative in Congress and raising hell about the way the USFS and it’s minions are investigating these disasters.
I can assure you, if my son had died with the GMIHC, that would sure as hell be my life’s work from now on.
Oh…and one more thing. Ole Coconino County Sherriff (out of Flagstaff, Arizona) Joe Richards was elected sheriff for life for more times than I can count…so who got the last laugh? You can’t ague with success…right?
I agree that Marsh and Steed are responsible for the deaths of the 17 GMHS, however, those men had the responsibility to say ‘no with an option’ and stayed put in the SZ.
“Groupthink” was the cause of that plus ‘The Abilene Paradox’ or the inability to manage agreement also contributed.
Here’s the Wenatchee World link with the quotes about not finding fault.
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/aug/23/winds-shifted-shortly-before-flames-overcame-firefighters/
Here’s a link for The Abilene Paradox. Definitely worth reading as it will help make more sense to the YH Fire debacle
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.rmastudies.org.nz/documents/AbileneParadoxJerryHarvey.pdf&ved=0CCQQFjABahUKEwixldeH8-3IAhVDSSYKHUGRB70&usg=AFQjCNF724lwvWydhS66giwXGdAqN9ELJw&sig2=XWaiAWEj6uYFVJmezGhcDw
I know that is the primary argument of those who disagree with me and you are far from alone in disagreeing with me but that is how I was raised on a hotshot crew, and so that was the way I did things with my crews. If the crew boss say’s it’s Easter…
From a lot of your posts, I believe you are a deep thinker. But when I was on a hotshot crew, I tried my best not to think too deeply about anything and I expected those who worked for me not too either. We usually only focused on doing one of three things.
1. Cut hand line and burn it out; or
2. Cut hand line and back fire it; or
3. Cut hand line, burn it out and back fire it.
I really related to being called a grunt or a ground pounder, or even a grunting ground pounder!
That’s just the way we rolled on the Mighty Coconino during the Bill Buck Era! Oorah!
And FYI – I have a very long list of former hotshots who worked with me who went on to very successful careers in highly respected professional occupations.
We were just able to compartmentalize better than some. There was a time and a place for everything and overthinking our jobs as hotshots wasn’t a problem we had to deal with very often.
Maybe I could have made it as a GMIHC? Except for the really nice guy part…and maybe the religious part. On second thought, I would have been culled out of the herd early in the process.
There was something about the Bill Buck Way that really appealed to me and I subsequently embraced it with gusto.
Thank you.
Praise to parents and grandparent s and great grandparents… Etc
I usually go out with Sonny on Halloween since 2011 but the local kids just left and I had a real enrichment and fun time…lives were changed…and I don’t know how people do it…raise kids in this modern programme d way…clap clap clap to you all who do…
Happy Halloween
Time to relax on my migun bed…
I wonder if Sonny won for best Halloween costume at legion when people called me it sounded crazy packed…
Time to unwind…
Friday the 13th is coming in a few weeks…
I have yard work tomorrow but I am also working on redoing death list and going through archived information.
Tonight it was neat to have all those kids here…I just wonder how people do it day in and out…
Did you win Sonny?
A note and remembrance about Lynn Biddeson —-
Over on Wildfire today is a story about Lynn one of the Fire Gods we talk about here.
40 years a Fire Fighter. A regional Fire management Officer in R3 and R5.
A Hot Shot Superintendent in the 50s.
His 30 suppression tactics referenced in a Regional directive. Go to Wild fire to day and read the list.
# 25 Is for The Yarnell Hill Fire————–
25. NEVER TAKE A SHORTCUT THROUGH UNBURNED FUEL—–
Real straight forward directive—Old School, Real world, NOT HILLBILLY.
I knew Lynn and his brother Don they were friends of my Step Father Bob (Red) Werner.
They were both well respected in the Wild Land Fire World.
Lynn created the Hot Shot Crews 17 in R3. FS. He always preached Fire Safety.
My little trip back in History. Fire Fighters need to all remember how we got here and where we are going.
I knew Lynn by reputation (only) and like Bob say’s, he was a legendary fire god of the highest order in my world.
The question still remains, did those 19 men volunteer or were they voluntold?
I still maintain they were voluntold but the cover up wants us to believe that they did not know the location of the men and that they even dropped down yet good question that in the beginning of this year on Bill Gabbert’s page someone mentioned Marsh was out scouting and at the ranch.
How is it again this information became public? Was there documented proof?
We were told they choose to go down even after the reports that Eric Marsh was balking and wondered why they wouldn’t order the blue ridge to go to the ranch. Communications after that were conveniently erased. and we are told that all contact was lost for 30 minute gap. That was despite Marsh, Steed and many of the other men having cell phones. If those phones were ever investigated nothing was ever revealed concerning the important phone records and times they were calling. Someone knew that ranch and the valuable machinery that it had with connection to federal contracts. It was obvious that it should be a priority greatly above any common household below that area.
When I asked long time smoke jumper and now Dr. Ted Putnam, experienced fire investigator, whether they would start a back burn to protect Glen Isla, he said they might have though to start one to protect the Ranch but he had no information pointing to such.
We have gone over this problem of volunteer, choice and voluntold many times. Perhaps some of those ordered to gag themselves will get balls and fess up. To my way of thinking someone gagged and perhaps even Donut was gagged–these people are the ones who are anxious to let the truth be known. What do these people know that must be hidden from public view? That is why I would want to see the FBI ungag them–a proper and decent thing to do. Without intervention too many are afraid of loosing their jobs or other forms of retribution from higher ups. Lying to the FBI would be a worse thing considering they would be in danger of prosecution..
Amen and Hallelujah to all of the comments written below by Sonny and others in reply. I have (almost) nothing more to add.
Sonny said, “Yes I do consider Gary’s father a hero–he gave his life for the explicit purpose of defending our country. He deserves every bit the honor given the GMHS and others but with Gary I do not see the point in honoring the cursed ground he was killed upon”
Thank you Sonny. Actually, my father does have a memorial to him. It is called a headstone the Veterans Administration paid for that marks his grave and details his WWII service as a Marine who served in the south pacific theater of operations. That is where I go to celebrate his life and mourn him.
As we have both said, the cursed ground he was killed upon deserves no memorial and the only memorial the deployment grounds deserves is a true and accurate explanation of what happened on that cursed wildfire. In addition to what can be done to make sure it never happens again as a place for wildland firefighters to study on a staff ride even if more advanced training is never done there, which it should.
None of that will detract from the fact that all of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots were heroes before they died…not because of it.
Oh…and one more thing. You could be forgiven for assuming that I am just like Mrs. Beno Marsh in that I throw a pity party for myself whenever I go because my father was killed on the job. But I can assure you…nothing could be further from the truth.
If you were to ask my kids who are in their 30’s and those who have known me well for decades how many times they have heard me mention my father, even in passing, they could count those times by using just two or three fingers, one time.
I just happen to find my father’s death an effective parable to illustrate many of the issues surrounding the deaths of the GMIHC and the subsequent attempts by those who loved them to find or fabricate some greater meaning out of this tragedy…and nothing more. And besides…all of you are among my closest and most trusted friends and confidants.
And one final point on this very touchy subject, both for those who loved the GMIHC and me. If you were to ever visit my father’s grave site and read the inscription on his headstone, you would assume he had been killed fighting as a Marine in WWII, if you did not read the dates closely. And even if you read the dates closely, you would even assume he had finally succumbed to his war wounds in 1958.
That is the price my mother paid for the Veteran’s Administration bureaucratic kindness, they did it their way. I think it was a fair bargain under the circumstances.
P.S., Another man had fallen to his death down the shaft my father was knocked down the day before his death. When my father heard a loud screech of metal, he thought another man was screaming as fell down the very same shaft…again.
And so he ran over to see if he could help and that is when he was struck by the heavy equipment and knocked down a very deep hole in the ground. I don’t know if my father screamed as he fell, or if he was already dead or unconscious…does it really matter?
My father made a mistake at work and he died because of it. Do you see how easy that was to write? It did not change how I feel about my father or his sacrifice to go to work in a relatively high paying but very dangerous job to feed his family or help provide his country with a vital natural resource for its defense.
Do you see another parable in my father’s story to that of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew? I do.
One final comment on the VA’s bureaucratic kindness. My father is not even buried in a VA cemetery. He is buried in a small community cemetery in Alpine, Arizona, where most of my family on my mother’s side is buried.
I don’t have any idea why they worded his headstone, which is very small and lays flat on the ground, the way they did. But I have never seen any point in changing it. My father left the family farm in Nebraska as a teenager to join the Marines. Oorah!
OK, just one more point since I have already over shared so much …I promise, My grandfather was killed in the White Mountains near Alpine, Arizona, when my mother was very young by bad dynamite while building a road working for the… United States Forest Service. It’s a small world indeed.
Well shit fire and save matches…as my mother used to say on very special occasions because I am going to break another vow! All because I see another analogy in the way my grandfather died.
And that is because of how and why he died. He didn’t die because of bad dynamite, he died because of a bad decision. When the dynamite charge didn’t go off as planned, he thought it was his job to go forward and check it because he was the foreman of the crew…and then it went off.
Me…I would have gotten a rifle and shot at it until it exploded, but back then, they probably didn’t want to waste bullets. They say it took my grandfather 3 days to die at the clinic in White River on the Apache Indian Reservation after he had been taken there in the back of a pick-up truck on mountain dirt roads. It must have been one hell of a ride.
My grandfather was also a wildland firefighter for the USFS. But back then, I think every man who lived in the mountains and owned a shovel, an axe and a pair of balls was a wildland firefighter. Oorah!
So…I see appropriate analogies almost everywhere I look in my story, except when I made bad mistakes at work…I didn’t die. But that doesn’t change the fact that I made plenty of mistakes. See…that’s not hard to admit or accept.
Mistakes are made by human because as Robert the Second has recently pointed out…there are always human factors involved when humans make mistakes. The only question is…can we learn from them and not make the same ones again?
It’s a dangerous world. Let’s be careful out there (Hill Street Blues).
Similar to you Gary, my Dad was a veteran of WW1. He joined at the young age of 15 by saying he was 17. He spoke little of the war but I know he was a machine gunner. He did tell of how the French were letting the Germans march through until his company caught them in a cross fire. He did say his partner on the browning machine gun detail crapped his pants once they opened up on the Germans. He said that Germans fell like cordwood and in the melee his partner said “Henry what will I do, I shit my pants.” Dad said he told him to take his pants down and wipe his ass. He did get mustard gas and a wound but survived it–no metals or recognition when he got back and he never expected any. He tried to re up for WW11 but was 45 and had us kids so the Army told him they would only take him if things got worse. He always felt he was defending this country and its freedoms and that was the duty of every young man capable of doing so. Yes I consider him a hero and his grave marker stands in the Prescott Veterans cemetery. There was more to his term in the Army, and it was a time of the Spanish flu. He said that he helped stack bodies of young soldiers coming over on the boat. Many died of the Spanish flu due to the overcrowded troop transports. His whole stay in France was in mud and muck–so if you had a board to sleep on you had to watch it closely or some other troop would grab it to sleep above the mud. He might have preferred the desert living we did just for that reason. And we see now that at least when we took Iraq very few casualties happened. That is great that our soldiers are better protected with better technology and equipment. That is what we also hope to see with the wild land firefighters. It seems they were put on the backburner for advanced technology and better equipment while they are the people who deserve the best. After all the protect vast resources of timber and fauna, homes and lives directly and indirectly. Undoubtedly they are responsible for insuring that billions in resources are saved—timber that can be properly harvested, animals saves, homes not burned and lives saved. So we would not as citizens regret that these heroes get the finest available. No expense should be withheld if it will benefit their efforts and increase their safety on the line. Sadly the truth is that Gary and Bob have revealed that there is stinginess applied to resources for these firefighters. That is why I know the men that died would be like my Dad. He did not expect and great expenditure of statues for him or his burial A simple headstone and a 21 gun salute were enough for him. And he would be damn happy to know that anything beyond that went toward helping the future soldier stay alive.
I lost my son Ted due to faulty equipment–something that should have never happened because people that ran the show did not have the foresight to keep things in order and were willing to use it.. You see, he was a young guy and relatively new at his job. But those over him would rather risk lives than take care that safety measures were followed. I am glad we have men like Dr. Ted Putnam and others on this site that are not willing to sign off on a SAIR type report, but want instead the truth so that the mistakes made or other factors such as human greed, or lack of training can be addressed and made right. That is what will be when the body count will go down in this wild land fire fighting profession.
Amen brother…can I get a hallelujah?
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 29, 2015 at 10:06 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> More info– this road is on Helms Property and being authorized for private
>> use by Families and specific people by Helms.
>> That could only be the Tractor road to the site.
Yes, it does.
Anyone with a Browser can go to Google Maps and see clearly that once you take Ridgeway Drive in Glen Ilah NORTH as far as it goes… the pavement ends but that ‘improved road/driveway’ out to the Boulder Springs Ranch begins.
Once you are only half-way west on that nicely improved ‘driveway’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch, you reach a ‘T’ intersection where you can then take a RIGHT onto another ‘improved’ road.
THAT road takes you AROUND on the north part of the BSR property and up to the ‘cattle pond’ area… which is where DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 actually landed on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, and dropped off DPS medic Eric Tarr so he could hike west out to the deployment site and be the first one to discover the 19 bodies.
If you simply CONTINUE on that ‘road’… it ‘fetches up’ on the west edge of the Boulder Springs Ranch at a point just about 40 feet ( FEET, not even YARDS ) from where that bulldozed road leads straight out to the deployment site.
With only about 10 minutes of ‘connection’ work… that road that goes AROUND the Boulder Springs Ranch could ‘connect’ with that bulldozed road out to the deployment site in a way that would never even require entering the BSR cleared compound area at all.
So maybe THIS is the ‘road’ that Lee and DJ Helm have given the Board ‘permission’ to use.
It can get anyone all the way out to the deployment site in a vehicle WITHOUT ever having to pass through the BSR electric gate or end up on the BSR compound at all.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Helms still dose not sound like he wants a whole bunch of people in his back yard.
>> He seems to be allowing some Family with guests but not many.
See above. If they have permission to use that other ‘road’ that goes up to the cattle pond and then comes back down and meets the bulldozed road out to the site… then Lee and DJ Helm wouldn’t have let anyone through the gate or even be aware their were vehicles going all the way out from Glen Ilah to the deployment site.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I am begging to wonder if they have the CART before THE HORSE????
And I’m wondering ( now ) if this ‘permission’ that was granted is what is making the Board think they can break Arizona Law and continue to NOT publish the minutes of some of their PUBLIC meetings.
It’s the whole ‘secrecy’ thing that gets me.
This is a PUBLIC Board whose first order of business was to go into ‘executive session’ just to ask people with more experience if they really did have to bother with this pesky crap like actually inviting the PUBLIC to meetings and/or having to PUBLISH the minutes of their meetings.
Someone already thought from the get-go they could ‘go about their business’ spending taxpayer dollars without having to obey the rules governing Arizona PUBLIC Boards.
Obviously someone in that executive session had better sense and told them that YES, they DID still have to obey Arizona law… because only then did they start inviting the public to any of the future meetings and (eventually) publishing SOME of their ‘minutes’.
But the question remains… WHY ( even from the get-go ) were people on this Board feeling that they had to be ‘secretive’?
Was it simply just more of the “Give us the public money and just go away let us do what we want” mentality?… or what?
Did they think if they actually TALKED about any ‘agreements’ with Lee and DJ Helm about this special ‘access to the site’ that other people would be driving their cars out there, or something?
WTKTT If I am not mistaken that entire dozer road is on Helms Property till it hits the State land and deployment site. They have to go thru his property to reach the site.
Some place something was said about getting permission I think from Helms to put the dozer road in to retrieve the Bodies. The tractor road started on Private land and went into the State Land to reach the deployment site.
When I said Back yard I was referring to helms property below the deployment site not inside his fence sorry If I confused you.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 29, 2015 at 8:46 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT If I am not mistaken that entire dozer road is on Helms
>> Property till it hits the State land
You are not mistaken… but I don’t think you fully realize that only the first 30 feet of that bulldozed road is on land owned by Lee and DJ Helm… and from that point on ( going west out to the deployment site ) it is fully on what is now the new Arizona State Park land.
The barbed wire fence at the west edge of the BSR was, in fact, the exact boundary between the west edge of land owned by Lee and DJ Helm and the east boundary of that Section 9, Township 10 North, Range 05 West parcel.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> They have to go thru his property to reach the site.
Yes… but I don’t think you went to Google Maps to see that ‘other road’ I was talking about.
There is ANOTHER WAY to reach the start of that road out to the deployment site other than having to go THROUGH the BSR main gate and across the housing compound itself.
When you are about halfway down the ‘driveway’ that leads to the BSR ( and before you ever reach the main electric gate ), there is ANOTHER ROAD there that a vehicle can take which takes you AROUND the actual BSR compound. It goes up past the ‘cattle pond’ area, then around to the BACK of the BSR compound and ‘fetches up’ just about 30 feet from where the road out to the deployment site starts.
If the Board was looking for a way to get vehicles out to the deployment site WITHOUT having to pass THROUGH the actual BSR compound… and WITHOUT needing the BSR gate access code(s)…. this would do the trick.
So all I was saying is that *maybe* THIS is the ‘special access’ out to the site that Lee and DJ Helm have ‘agreed’ to, for now. Minimal impact on them.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Some place something was said about getting permission I think
>> from Helms to put the dozer road in to retrieve the Bodies. The tractor
>> road started on Private land and went into the State Land to reach
>> the deployment site.
Again… YES… but only the first 30 feet of that entire bulldozed road out to the ‘site’ ended up on land owned by Lee and DJ Helm. The rest of it is totally owned by Arizona Parks now.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> When I said Back yard I was referring to helms property below
>> the deployment site not inside his fence sorry If I confused you.
And I’m sorry if I confused you. The road that goes AROUND the BSR compound and ‘fetches up’ within 30 feet of the road out to the deployment site is STILL partly on land owned by Lee and DJ Helm… but it represents a perfectly good way to get vehicles all the way out to the deployment site without having to go THROUGH the BSR compound itself.
Using this ‘alternate way’ to get out there ( for now ) would STILL involve having the Helms’ permission… but their ‘electric gate’ could remain totally locked and it wouldn’t matter at all. Anyone could still get vehicles all the way out there to the deployment site by just taking this ‘other road’ around the BSR compound and past the cattle pond.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Nine months ago I did a VIDEO that showed this exact parcel of land ( and it’s exact boundaries ) that the Yarnell Hill Board was trying to buy.
It’s a Google Earth ‘fly through’ that also has the exact property boundaries shown ‘on the ground’ as it ‘flies’ through and over that terrain.
It clearly shows how little of the ‘bulldozed road’ out to the site is actually on land owned by Lee and DJ Helm, and it also clearly shows this ‘other road’ I was just talking about that could be used to go AROUND the BSR compound and then on out to the deployment site.
NOTE: This video represents what the Yarnell Memorial Committee was originally planning to do as of only their second official meeting on January 6, 2015. At that time, they ONLY wanted to purchase SOME of the ‘South half of Section 9, Township 10 North, Range 05 West’. They only planned on ‘buying’ the EAST part of Section 9 from the edge of the Boulder Springs Ranch, west to the ‘ridge’ of the Weaver Mountains just west of the two-track road up there. The Arizona State Trust Land ended up balking on that idea. They didn’t want to ‘break up a section half’ and be stuck with some weird shaped piece of land. So Arizona State Land Department ended up forcing them to bid on/buy ALL 320 acres comprising the entire south half of that Section 9.
Here is the VIDEO itself…
YouTube Video Title: SOUTH-HALF-OF-SECTION-9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKrqjVUznLM
The video does a ‘fly around’ of the exact borders of this parcel of land that the Yarnell Hill Memorial Committee was planning to buy. The YELLOW lines on Google Earth represent the exact section boundary lines as per the Arizona Tax Assesor’s office.
Stop the video at the 6 minute 20 second mark.
You can see clearly there that this road that was bulldozed from the west end of the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the deployment site starts right there at the exact EDGE of the western property boundary for the Boulder Springs Ranch and only about 30 feet of it could be construed to actually be ON property owned by Lee and DJ Helm.
Thanks on the map. A little less private land than I thought but Helms still has the ownership 30 ft. or what ever the distance he controls the access and a easement would be needed to cross his property. Without the easement he and he alone controls the access. It would be fool hardy to plan on the use of that road with out a legal easement. Many a piece of property has been stopped for use by such a small piece of access.
If they do not get permission to bring heavy equipment. Based on the road they may need to improve it enough to get the equipment in as well.
Will Helms allow that? The owner of 3o ft. of road controls the entire access, and the never ending story continues.
People out west like their privacy. I have seen Ranchers go berserk over Federal road access thru their property. The Sage Brush Rebellion by the public and Carol King in the SNRA who gated a FS road that had been there for 40 years. It can get to be quite a battle. The county or State Park would have to get the easement. No body likes Government taking their land and many will not negotiate. That’s a whole different story.
Wow. Very cool video and very informative Once again, you have outdone yourself.
My understanding of the Helms is that they love their privacy as I do. Sad for them that they now due to all this memorial thing will have to continually contend with public right near their property. In fact the night light there at the memorial flag we are told already has disturbed their right to privacy. If it were my place I would be disgruntled after all those years of peaceful living to suddenly have all the commotion to deal with. But of course all the widows who push this and the so called do gooders who think they need a memorial there have poorly considered the invasion to these people and all those they want to condemn property of.
We see after all that the greatest solution to this is pay a fair market value to the Helms and make that a training camp. I can tell you that that would be the best solution and a great tribute to those men0-way beyond making some statues and some place for people to be disturbing private people.
**
** SHERIFF FRANK ROGERS OF OKANOGAN COUNTY
** SAYS HIS INVESTIGATION OF TWISP FIRE IS DONE
Sheriff Rogers suddenly went “on the record” just yesterday about his own investigation into the Twisp River fire fatalities.
The article that was published just yesterday is here…
https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/oct/28/sheriff-firefighters-did-all-they-could/
From the article…
———————————-
Sheriff Frank Rogers said…
“In my opinion, there was nothing that could have been done,” Rogers said in a voice mail Friday while on a hunting trip. “The weather was weird that day. The fire was busy. The wind did a 180-degree shift that day. Nobody expected it. They were in there trying to get people out. Protect homes. I think they did everything they were trained to do, and it just went terribly wrong. Officially, it will be the Forest Service’s decision. As for us, it was death caused by wildfire.”
——————————————-
” Death caused by Wildfire”.
The “big bad fire” just came and got them .
End of story. These aren’t the droids you’re looking for. Move along. Move along.
There are all kinds of problems and inaccuracies in even this latest article
Sheriff Rogers is now saying they were supposedly up Woods Canyon Road to help ‘get people out’. Other evidence indicates there was NO ONE still up there even long before that engine and crew decided to go up there and put themselves ABOVE that dynamic, in contained fire.
So that pretty much leaves “trying to protect EMPTY HOUSES” as the motivation and/or ORDERS they might have been given.
The article is also totally wrong about that crash.
The engine did NOT go off the road onto Washington State Department of Natural Resources (DNR) land. The firefighters DIED on PRIVATE PROPERTY.
The address of the PRIVATE PROPERTY where they ended up burning to death was the same address reported along with the original 911 call that first reported the fire hours before they died.
371 Woods Canyon Road.
The article also mentions all the other investigations that are still ongoing. It says the OSHA investigation results might be out by February of 2016 and that the USFS “Learning Report” ( Not an investigation at all, really ) might be out next SPRING… but there’s no telling when the Federally mandated USDA Inspector General’s report might come out.
Quote from yesterday’s article regarding the US Forestry “Learning Review” thing…
———————————–
Forest Service investigators have begun drafting their final report, agency spokeswoman Cathy Dowd said Tuesday.
“We owe it to their families to make sure we have this information right. That’s why it takes so much time,” Dowd said.
——————————–
If that isn’t just complete crap… then what happened with the Yarnell investigation? No one even lifted a finger to verify or followup on half of the known captured radio conversations.
Do not expect a full Wildland Fire investigation from a Sheriffs department that is not there responsibility. They determine if the Fatalities were a accident or not. Accidental caused by ??????? what ever or if the accident was a Felony/Misdemeanor caused by some other person or activity. Wildfire, mudslide, tornado, earthquake ETC. ( cause of death).
They did not die from the vehicle crash they died from the fire.
The Fire investigation by Federal or State Bodies will determine the specific information.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 29, 2015 at 2:19 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Do not expect a full Wildland Fire investigation from a Sheriffs
>> department that is not there responsibility.
Correct ( and NO… I wasn’t expecting that ).
What actually struck me most about yesterday’s article was just this one statement from Sheriff Frank Rogers…
“They were in there trying to get people out. Protect homes.”
Regardless of the DEPTH of ‘his’ investigation… Sheriff Frank Rogers is now making that statement as if it is a FACT… and that it IS one of the ‘conclusions’ of his own investigation.
My issue with that is that I would believe the SECOND part of the statement ( that someone told them to go up there to protect EMPTY HOMES )… but I don’t believe the FIRST part of his statement.
There is already evidence in the public record which totally contradicts that first part of what Sheriff Frank Rogers seems to be trying to push as a FACT.
See the following response to what RTS said which is sitting just below in this chapter…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-313790
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Fire investigation by Federal or State Bodies will determine
>> the specific information.
What the article seems to fail to mention is that everyone ( ALL the investigations ) are obviously waiting to get some kind of ‘testimony’ for Daniel Lyons… the FF who was sitting in the left rear seat of the engine that burned over and who barely escaped death himself.
Daniel Lyons was only even recently told that he was the only FF on that engine who didn’t die.
There is no word about when he will ever actually be ‘interviewed’ and give any kind of ‘testimony’ to investigators. If he, himself, ‘lawyers up’ like Brendan McDonough did after Yarnell… that might actually NEVER happen.
Regardless… I’m not so much worried that a ‘Fire investigation by Federal or State Bodies’ won’t end up DETERMINING exactly what happened that day… I’m worried ( and with good reason ) that they will never, ever tell the families or the PUBLIC what they find out.
I HOPE they do. I EXPECT them to… but confidence is not high.
Surprise me. Just tell the TRUTH this time. It’s not hard.
The Sheriff’s article above also stated “The The Forest Service has used a new form of internal fire investigation created and tested in 2013 but not used until this year.
The new investigative system isn’t focused on fault finding, but rather on learning from an incident so it won’t be repeated, Forest Service officials have said.”
Remember this is the CRAP – alleged process or protocol referenced previously here in IM and Wildfire Today.. Check out the Wildfire Today article link below regarding the September 2, 2015 “Coroner’s report for Twisp River Fire [fatalities]”.and the August 23, 2015 “More information released about the three firefighter fatalities near Twisp, Washington” and the August 20 “Investigation into the three fatalities in Washington begins”
http://wildfiretoday.com/tag/twisp-river-fire/
Just like EVERY fire where there are fatalities, where there were Human Factors involved that caused and/or influenced those fatalities, someone is to blame. In other words, someone is at fault for the fatalities. They don’t just happen. Yes, there are fatalities that occur due to environmental factors, e.g. lightning and rocks and trees or mechanical failures and such, but the vast majority of wildland fatalities occur due to bad decisions, otherwise known as Human Factors..
And as far as learning from an incident to ensure it won’t be repeated? How about learning the WFF Rules and applying them on every fire. Or studying historical fires and learning from the past. What a novel idea.
Right On—–
First off. Good to see you RTS. secondly…right on
from the hikers
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on October 29, 2015 at 3:22 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The Sheriff’s article above also stated “The The Forest Service has
>> used a new form of internal fire investigation created and tested
>> in 2013 but not used until this year.
>>
>> The new investigative system isn’t focused on fault finding, but
>> rather on learning from an incident so it won’t be repeated,
>> Forest Service officials have said.”
>>
>> Remember this is the CRAP – alleged process or protocol
>> referenced previously here in IM and Wildfire Today..
Once they ( US Forestry Service ) felt the need to abandon the whole SAIT ( Special Accident Investigation Team ) thing following Yarnell and also felt the need to create this whole new ‘approach’ and ‘acronym’ to go with it… it’s a shame they didn’t add the word ‘Accident’ to their new, shiny acronym.
As in… “Coordinated Response Accident Protocol”.
Then it really, truly, would be CRAP.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Just like EVERY fire where there are fatalities, where there were
>> Human Factors involved that caused and/or influenced those
>> fatalities, someone is to blame. In other words, someone is at fault
>> for the fatalities. They don’t just happen. Yes, there are fatalities
>> that occur due to environmental factors, e.g. lightning and rocks
>> and trees or mechanical failures and such, but the vast majority
>> of wildland fatalities occur due to bad decisions, otherwise known
>> as Human Factors..
Yes.
Those poor FFs were not just out for a drive on a country lane.
They were there, ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained fire because someone TOLD them that’s where they should be… and they (apparently) agreed to take on the assignment.
I’m feeling the need to reprint that US Forestry Service representative’s quote from yesterday’s article regarding this US Forestry CRP “Learning Review” thing…
———————————
Forest Service investigators have begun drafting their final report, agency spokeswoman Cathy Dowd said Tuesday.
“We owe it to their families to make sure we have this information right. That’s why it takes so much time,” Dowd said.
———————————
Yes. They DO ‘owe it these families’ to make sure they get it RIGHT… and tell them exactly why they had to bury their loved ones. ‘Human Factors’ and ALL.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And as far as learning from an incident to ensure it won’t be repeated?
>> How about learning the WFF Rules and applying them on every fire.
>> Or studying historical fires and learning from the past. What a novel idea.
If a problem CAN be identified ( training deficiencies, etc. )… then FIX it.
That’s how any other ‘business’ works… and not even ones where people are always at risk of DYING when ‘on the job’.
Of course… if you don’t want to do that… the key is to put all your energy into making sure you never admit a problem exists.
What struck me most about yesterday’s article was just this one statement from Sheriff Frank Rogers…
“They were in there trying to get people out. Protect homes.”
Bob Powers is right in that we can’t expect a ‘Sheriff’ to do a complete investigation of such an ‘accident’ when there is no PCRTB ( Probable Cause, Reason to Believe ) that ‘foul play’ was involved or that criminal charges will need to be filed… but this NEW statement from Sheriff Frank Rogers is presented as FACT… when there is already other evidence in the public record that contradicts what he just said.
I would still believe the latter part of his statement ( they were up there protecting EMPTY HOUSES )… but not the former ( that there was anyone left up there past 3:30 PM that needed to be ‘gotten out’ ).
Other evidence says that was NOT the case… that everyone on Woods Canyon Road HAD already been ‘evacuated’ well before the ‘wind changed’ that day.
Other than the real-time Facebook BLOG entries recorded that day… the best evidence that this was the case comes from someone who WAS ‘evacuated’ from Woods Canyon Road.
That would be Mary Ann Kirkland ( and her husband, Dennis ).
The Methow Valley News
Article Title: Running from the fire
Published: Aug 27, 2015 – 4:25 PM ( 8 days after the fatalities )
http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/27/running-from-the-fire/
From the article…
————————————————
Everyone has their story, but almost no one was closer to the start of the fire than Mary Ann Kirkland.
Around 12:45 p.m. on Aug. 19, Mary Ann, who was home alone at the time, heard her dog “barking like crazy,” so she looked out the curtains that were closed against the noon-day sun. Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller was below, pounding on the door of their neighbors’ house, and shouting.
“‘You have to get out of here immediately,’” Mary Ann recalls hearing Waller say. “‘You have to get out of here or you’re going to DIE’
Mary Ann said. “I didn’t have shoes or anything. I grabbed my purse and ran with no shoes on, down the stairs, across the gravel and into my car.” Neither she nor Waller were able to get the two dogs. Waller told her to “just go.”
Mary Ann drove down the steep dirt road as fast as she could, thinking to herself, “I hope I don’t hit a deer,” she remembers. “I didn’t see the fire because I was so focused on getting down the road. I didn’t process anything except for to get out of there. I was panicked. At that time I thought both my dogs were dead.”
In the mean time Dennis, who had been in town working on their new house in Twisp, received a phone call about the fire from a friend and raced up Twisp River Road. On the way, despite spotty cell phone coverage, Mary Ann managed to get a call through to him, and pleaded with Dennis to rescue their dogs.
“I arrived at the road to see if I could gain access,” Dennis said. “Initially Don Waller wouldn’t let me go up — he said it was too dangerous.” He stood with the fire chief, watching the fire from Twisp River Road for about 20 minutes, Dennis estimates. Seeing that the fire wasn’t moving toward Woods Canyon Road, Waller asked a volunteer firefighter to take Dennis up the road in his truck to get the two dogs.
“Flames were quite close to the road,” Dennis recalls. “We went up the road, grabbed the dogs, and got out of there within about 5 minutes.”
Shortly after they returned safely at the foot of the road, the wind direction changed and flames crossed over Woods Canyon Road. “Had the wind direction changed earlier, I could have been trapped,” Dennis said.
“I feel fortunate to be alive,” Mary Ann said. “We’re alive and our animals are alive.”
“Had the part-time neighbor not been there and called in the fire, Mary Ann would have had no way of knowing the fire was there,” Dennis said. “Had Don Waller not knocked on the door, if she hadn’t been notified, she would have died.”
————————————————
So there is PROOF that even just minutes after this fire was first reported and he arrived on the scene ( circa 12:30 PM ), Chief Don Waller knew that everyone on Woods Canyon Road had to get the hell out of there right away.
He, himself, tore up Woods Canyon Road ( circa 12:30 PM ) to make those notifications and make sure everyone was ‘getting out’… and this is LONG before the wind changed and before other inter-agency resources had arrived and the whole ‘Unified Command’ thing kicked in.
If even Chief Don Waller had thought there was still anyone up there who needed to be ‘gotten out’… does anyone think he would have just been sitting on his hands back down there on the Twisp River Road when Dennis Kirkland was begging him to let him go up just to rescue his dogs?
There WOULD have been some effort in progress even THEN to go up and get ‘other people’ ( humans ) out of there when Dennis arrived and everyone was just standing around on Twisp River Road.
There wasn’t.
That’s because there weren’t any ‘humans’ left up there at that point.
Just Dennis’ dogs ( who were eventually also saved without incident ).
The ‘Methow Valley News’ also did a pretty good job of interviewing the Kirklands and others who were evacuated ( in plenty of time ) from Twisp River Road… and they also found no stories of anyone being ‘trapped’ up there on Woods Canyon Road and even needing the FFs who ended up dying to ‘come get them’.
It’s also pretty much been proven that these reports over the scanner of an ‘elderly man refusing to leave’ did NOT involve ‘Woods Canyon Road’ at all. Those reports had to do with resident Kenneth Duncan trying to ‘make a stand’ at his place right there on Twisp River Road ( and NOT up Woods Canyon Road ).
A number of other FFs ( and not the ones who died on Woods Canyon Road ) actually helped him do that… and Kenneth Duncan’s primary residence WAS saved… even though he lost a lot of outbuildings… but no one DIED doing that. Kenneth Duncan’s place had a driveway that connected directly to the Twisp River Road itself, which was serving as everyone’s ‘safety zone’ that afternoon.
So that’s what bothers me about Sheriff Frank Rogers’ NEW statement.
There is ALREADY evidence in the public record which contradicts what Sheriff Rogers has now tried to say was a FACT and the REASON those men were up Woods Canyon Road that day.
The TRUTH please. That’s all that’s required here.
Followup…
Here’s a direct link to the comment in the previous Chapter ( 16 ) where Mr. Kenneth Duncan’s on-camera interview was first discussed…
** TWISP UPDATE
**
** THE ‘ELDERLY MAN’ WHO SEEMED TO BE REFUSING TO
** LEAVE HIS HOUSE ON AUGUST 19, 2015 APPEARS TO BE
** A MAN NAMED ‘KENNETH DUNCAN’.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-308691
And here is a direct link to that original Q13 FOX NEWS story with a VIDEO that contains reporter Tom Yazwinski’s on-camera interview with Twisp River Road resident Kenneth Duncan…
Q13 FOX NEWS
Article Title: New details emerge about incident in
which 3 firefighters died, 4 were injured
Posted 9:06 AM, August 21, 2015, by Associated Press
and Tom Yazwinski
Updated at 09:57pm, August 21, 2015
http://q13fox.com/2015/08/21/evacuation-levels-in-twisp-tonasket-reduced-to-level-2-fires-still-rage/
Beyond the interview with Mr. Kenneth Duncan… what’s really INTERESTING about this video is what reporter Tom Yazwinski actually did with his cameraman that day to get around not being allowed to go up Woods Canyon Road.
As seen in the video… there was POLICE TAPE across the entrance to Woods Canyon Road and reporter Tom Yazwinski and his cameraman were NOT allowed to go up there to film anything.
So he did the next best thing.
When Tom Yazwinski went right next door to where that Woods Canyon Road began… that is when he interviewed Mr. Kenneth Duncan on his property there just about 200 yards south of the taped-off entrance to Woods Canyon Road.
Mr. Duncan then walked them WEST on that little road behind his primary residence to show him how the fire burned his outbuildings there on that small road.
But Tom Yazwinski and his cameraman didn’t STOP when they got to the west end of Mr. Duncan’s little back road.
They KEPT GOING ( to the west ).
They ended up on a little KNOLL and filming that actual ‘switchback’ part of Woods Canyon Road, just south of where the Engine ran off that road and was burned over.
That ‘footage’ that the police tape was trying to prevent Tom Yazwinski from obtaining that day appears at least TWICE in diferent places in this online video interview with Kenneth Duncan.
Just watch for the ‘burned out switchbacks’ appearing. Just at the top of that video footage is where the Engine actually ran off Woods Canyon Road and was burned over.
The video shows how STEEP that part of Woods Canyon road really was, and why the ‘switchbacks’ were required in that part of the road to even achieve a drivable ‘grade’ to get up the road from the Twisp River Road.
Harkening back to the original Wenatchee World article (link below), I realized I had missed something kind of important, like FIRE SHELTERS BEING DEPLOYED “TOWARD THE TOP OF THE FIRE SOMEWHERE.” That’s important because that is another ‘incident within an incident’ that needs to be investigated.
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/aug/23/winds-shifted-shortly-before-flames-overcame-firefighters/
CRAP Team Leader John “Phipps said he did not know if fire shelters were deployed close to the burned engine, but TWO [FIRE] SHELTERS WERE DEPLOYED TOWARD THE TOP OF THE FIRE.”
Not just one “but TWO [fire] shelters had been deployed toward the top of the fire somewhere.”
And the final three sentences in this Wenatchee World article are worth revisiting:
““It’s a myth that you can really figure out that so-and-so did something or so-and-so didn’t do that,” he said. “We’re trying to figure out how it made sense to the people at the time.
“We want to shift from holding individuals accountable to an assumed perfect system, to an understanding that we have excellent people operating in an imperfect system.”
He added that, “the event was tragic enough without our response adding to it.”
So then, let me see if I understand this. How did it make sense to them at the time to NOT follow the WFF Rules, and then how do we NOT hold them responsible for those non-actions of REQUIRED actions, like LCES?. That’s rather Orwellian if you ask me. Simple. Follow the Federal practice of ‘first establish a conclusion, then find the ‘facts’ to fit that conclusion.”
Among other things, I know that those on the left flank of the fire, followed the WFF Rules and everyone was just fine. Those on the right flank of the fire, where all the burns and fatalities occurred, did NOT follow even the basics of LCES. And they paid for it with their lives. So, we’re expected to put ourselves in their shoes and understand how those decisions made sense to them at the time and why their actions made sense to them at the time. Okay ….. still not getting it ….. engage the fire without following the required LCES protocol. Still NOT getting it, NOT now, NOT ever.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 28, 2015 at 7:49 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If they make any of the statues look like the crewman or leaders of GM, its a
>> Shrine and becomes self fulfilling to that family.
>> Or every one will want a statue of their family member in the area dedicated
>> to them. AND SO IT GOES——————————–
Agree. Bad idea.
Two other points here…
1) If they put ANY ‘life-like Bronze Statues’ at ALL out in that area… then people not totally familiar with this incident or the investigation WILL think that they must represent the ‘faces’ of at least some of the actual men that died ( unless they point out with plaques, or something, that that is NOT the case ).
2) It was Deborah Pfingston herself ( the mother of deceased hotshot Andrew Ashcraft ) who first proposed the idea of ‘life-like Bronze statues’ of ALL of the deceased men out there… and she actually wanted there to be 19 of them… and she actually DID want them all to be exact ‘replicas’ of the men who died.
She proposed her ‘idea’ for actual full-size life-like BRONZE replicas of ALL the Hotshots just moments after Board Chairman Martyn asked her to actually be ON the ‘design sub-committee’ and Mrs. Pfingston accepted that position.
From the minutes of the January 6, 2015 meeting of
this Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board…
—————————————————————-
Mrs. Deborah Pfingston would like to thank the committee again for being here and it’s nice to see that everyone seems to really care about what they’re meant to be doing as part of the board.
Board Chairman Mr. Martyn asked if Mrs. Pfingston would like to be on sub-committee for the memorial and she stated she would love to participate.
Mrs. Pfingston would like to see the “hamm line” could be purchased and something done with that. Regarding the fundraising committees – it is her opinion that the committees should not mix. She (is) thrilled Yarnell wants to do memorial and wants to thank Yarnell for caring about the guys and hopes Prescott will follow suit with a memorial.
Regarding the design of monuments she is in support of the bronzes up to and along the trail to the site. She would love to see FULL SIZE BRONZES of the guys with some type of explanation of what they each did that day.
——————————————————————-
I cannot right now reply to your above topics on me except fact check first with me—especially if its on me—especially accounts with Snakeman and Frankie—
No biggie—just people reading it may assume its correct but its a long process to sit down and write it all out because I ramble or as Gary calls it…riddles…
I reckon I look at this from day one of the aftermath of this horrific weekend and that is safety matters and better equipment for the firefighters and funds for training so I understand what you say Sonny and WWTKTT yet I think one would have to interview the Helms and see where they are because of what locals tell me I think they are going to explain this all with guidance from John MacLean as John shared such at 2015 convention and I think we should wait until we hear where they are but people who have spoken to the Helms direct said the Helms feel their privacy was taken that weekend not just the terrain…so we all should be taking the steps to figure out where we can help current and future firefighters because this memorial board is focused to memorialize the men not what you are thinking on training facility or other areas and are satisfied by the SAIR and media reports— many I have spoken to say the loved ones feel that area is sacred and would not want it to be used such way. They do not mind eventually sharing the area they died public but in a design they can best comfort their horrific grief and it is horrific not was—I mean it is 2.5 years later almost but I cannot tell you a stronger memory of my life like THAT weekend—to this day I know the smells that day, the wind, the lack of, the fire edge, the men and the looks upon each one, etc.
It is not a matter of IF this will happen— it is a matter of WHEN…I have a lot of HOPE that more information will come forward on YHF and in time…these loved ones who dislike Investigative Media will one day THANK US for all our continued efforts and for not giving up on trying to seek/gather new sources and resources not for some book not for any angle and not for any agenda yet as the books come out we already do see Investigative Media is mentioned somewhere within a book. Recently a retired smokejumper told me an author spoke ill of the hikers in an odd way. I confirmed that its possible by 2 other ones that know the man as well as another contacted me stating this person was not a part to this event and has not heard video yet. I want to make it clear from my point I have not yet been able to properly assess such statements but soon-
this yhf cannot be properly assessed until all areas have come forward so we can make a final conclusion.
There is a division obvious in the aftermath of this fire even Gary Olson can share his life and how he lost people due to his views on the yhf…
So Sonny my question to you-
how can we restore confidence in the people that Gary recently stated on here use to frequented this site and the page got MORE hits. Going back to chapter one and now on to chapter 17…go back and read the chapters Sonny and see each chapter and jot down points and you will see people have tried to come here and share but felt their words here were being dissected to their perception as “being attacked”…some would pop in to share their views/perceptions with no conclusion of resources or sources yet wanted to discuss it but walked away because they felt it was not a sound debate just we all have our own thinking and that’s that and I think if Gary wrote a book on yhf AND PUBLISHED IT—it would clear up much of the confusion people have about the fire and if Bob Powers did one it would focus on 10 &18 and the importance of it and how your life may depend on it and if WWTKTT wrote one it would be chronologically with linked resources almost like a lawyer and Marti would show the importance of photographs and weather and safety and you Sonny it would be on the additional deaths since the fire and the chemicals/retardant and the highly distinctive deadly dangers of such…that matches you because you taught me MUCH about chemicals and air quality in our hikes but for me I am the misfit in this all and some dummy statue baulking on some two track ridge but I don’t really care because my door will remain OPEN for any additional information. Is the public aware that the SAIR- the investigation is completed as well as OSHA and on October 21 2015 I learned Marshall Krotenberg no longer works for the State of Arizona and Bruce Hanna was transferred to the consultation side and no longer in compliance area. The Arizona State Forester investigation is closed. ADOSH inspection is closed even though so much information was omitted and retracted to them…so WHO has JURISDICTION for any NEW information that can HELP these families as well as all fallen and ALL affected by this???
We all personally want to hear NEW information because it WEIGHS heavy on the world’s hearts and a lot of folks have spent a lot of time and effort maybe a few ulcers or added health concerns trying to get clarity…yet who has the OFFICIAL area and to me it is John Dougherty and Dr. Ted Putnam I urge all MISSING ELEMENTS to speak to these men to officiate interviews—
Just read a news article from Prescott news.
I am wondering how all this heavy stuff is going to get to the site.
The riprap weighs 2 ton plus and the Marble crosses are going to be carried by family members?
on a 2 mile hike. How is all that going to work??????
I assume you mean the following article, published just this morning…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: More than 2 years later … Memorial for Prescott’s fallen Hotshots took many hours, many hands to design
Published: 0/28/2015 6:00:00 AM by Scott Orr
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=151289
From the article…
—————————————————————————
The board may have received a glimpse of the impact their decisions will have when fallen firefighter Andrew Ashcraft’s mother, Deborah Pfingston, stood up at Friday’s meeting and asked if she might be allowed to carry the marble cross representing her son up the trail and to the spot where Ashcraft died.
“Done deal,” board member Rowle P. Simmons said.
—————————————————————————
I hope they have some EMTs standing by on the day Mrs. Pfingston attempts this.
I’m not sure she has any idea how long and steep a hike that is going to be just to get to the point where the ‘alternate escape route’ turned EAST towards the Boulder Springs Ranch… or how much farther she even then will have to go with ‘the marble cross’ just to get it down to the deployment site.
Marble is heavy. It really is.
I still believe there is no way they are going to finish ‘building’ this park OR be able to pull off things like this Pfingston Pilgrimage OR the actual dedication ceremony without the Boulder Springs Ranch coming into play, here.
Maybe Mrs. Pfingston will be able to do this ‘Pilgrimage’ only the 640 yards from the west end of the BSR out to the deployment site. I still think EMTs should be standing by.
As for the ‘dedication’… I really can’t imagine them pulling it off and accommodating all the PRESS and the POLITICIANS and the PUBLIC ( if the PUBLIC even ends up invited to this thing ) unless they ‘commandeer’ the Boulder Springs Ranch and use IT as the ‘staging area’ that day. It’s the only place where everyone could reasonably PARK and still have a ‘doable’ hike out to the deployment site.
If this committee starts to obey Arizona Law and release their ‘minutes’… we should begin to see what their real PLANS are for not only the park… but how they intend to actually pull off the dedication ceremony on the planned date of June 30, 2016.
Biggest question there is the same one as for the park itself.
Will the PUBLIC ( who are paying for the park ) even be invited?
Followup…
** THERE ARE NOW THREE SETS OF MEETING MINUTES ‘MISSING’
** FOR THIS PUBLIC YARNELL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD
It has been 5 days now since the last PUBLIC meeting of the PUBLIC Arizona State sponsored ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’… and there are still no ‘minutes’ publicly posted from this most recent public meeting.
The laws governing Arizona PUBLIC Boards combined with the laws governing all Arizona State ‘Open Meetings’ require the minutes of every meeting where a quorum was present to be posted publicly within 72 hours following the public meeting. It doesn’t matter if the ‘minutes’ are ‘draft minutes’, or not. No Arizona public Board is ever supposed to wait until the minutes from a previous meeting have been ‘approved’ at the next meeting before publishing them publicly.
That’s what the LAW says.
So there are now THREE sets of ‘minutes’ from prior meetings of this Arizona PUBLIC Board that are ‘missing’ from the page where they are all supposed to be publicy published…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
The THREE sets of ‘public meeting minutes’ that now remain ‘missing’ are…
Meeting date 10/23/2015 – October 23, 2015 – 5 days ago.
Meeting date 09/18/2015 – September 18, 2015 – 40 days ago.
Meeting date 05/29/2015 – May 5, 2015 – 152 days ago.
The codified ‘remedy’ in Arizona Law for a PUBLIC Board that continues to ignore its legal obligations is for that PUBLIC Board to cease operation and be disbanded.
WTKTT—Something I jut learned privately is there is road access to the site that has been granted to specific individuals. I am assuming Family and the board.
Maybe some fire investigators or people writing Novels. The Board may have access granted to build the Memorial. As you said we have not seen any thing to indicate that.
It would surprise me that Helms would allow heavy equipment in to the site across their property. From what I have read Helms is very upset with the lose of their privacy and not happy with the Memorial Idea.
This has to be happening on the original Tractor road that was pushed into the site of the deployment and owned by Helms. There are no other roads to get there I know of that do not cross private land.
When I say heavy equipment I mean Heavy duty Boom Truck and a heavy duty tractor trailer to carry the RipRap. I have seen that type of operation on the Angeles NF when they were building flood protection RipRap in canyons above LA. It is a major operation to move that stuff and set it.
RipRap is in a heavy duty wire container 3ft. X 3ft. X 6ft filled with basket ball or larger rocks. I forget the weight but over 2000 LBS.
Was surprised they have been using the road to access the site privately.
As you said maybe the Minuets of the meeting will explain that and other info.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 29, 2015 at 7:55 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT—Something I jut learned privately is there is
>> road access to the site that has been granted to specific
>> individuals. I am assuming Family and the board.
>> Maybe some fire investigators or people writing Novels.
>> The Board may have access granted to build the Memorial.
>> As you said we have not seen any thing to indicate that.
In some of the meeting minutes that we CAN see… there was some discussion about this ‘alternate access’ and Senator Pierce was supposed to get with Rancher Rex Maughn about it.
There was actually some mention of the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ ( that Arizona firefighter organization that was paying for the Jesus-based PTSD books for Darrell Willis’ PTSD classes ) purchasing property ( 160 acres ) out there on Shrine Road ( possibly the burned up Youth Camp? ) and then trying to work out ‘access’ to the deployment are from there.
The minutes say that the ‘100 Club’ was thinking about building their own ‘Wildland FF PTSD Treatment Center’ on that property on Shrine Road.
The ‘access to the site from there’ would have then included the ‘Cutover trail’ that was bulldozed on June 30, 2013 and that Blue Ridge had started to work on… over to the Sesame clearing area… then southwest towards the deployment site across some of Maughn’s ( and others? ) property.
In the minutes that HAVE been published… we don’t see any full ‘resolution’ of that.
Maybe this ‘secondary access’ HAS, in fact, been worked out already and that’s what the Board is actually trying to HIDE by not publishing the minutes from some ( at least THREE ) of their PUBLIC meetings.
See excerpts from meeting minutes down below.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It would surprise me that Helms would allow heavy equipment
>> in to the site across their property. From what I have read Helms
>> is very upset with the lose of their privacy and not happy with
>> the Memorial Idea.
They are still part of the 160+ property damage lawsuits against Arizona Forestry that are now on ‘appeal’ and might still go forward.
They are still asking for 6+ MILLION dollars in damages.
They can be as ‘upset’ as they want… but as long as they are suing the State then the State is allowed to come back and ‘make then an offer they can’t refuse’ in order to SETTLE their claim against them.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This has to be happening on the original Tractor road that
>> was pushed into the site of the deployment and owned by
>> Helms. There are no other roads to get there I know of that
>> do not cross private land.
Correct. Only some ‘possible access’. The only ROAD that leads out to the site ( that will allow vehicles to get out there ) is still that one that starts at the west end of THEIR property.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> When I say heavy equipment I mean Heavy duty Boom
>> Truck and a heavy duty tractor trailer to carry the RipRap.
>> I have seen that type of operation on the Angeles NF when
>> they were building flood protection RipRap in canyons
>> above LA. It is a major operation to move that stuff and
>> set it. RipRap is in a heavy duty wire container 3ft. X 3ft. X 6ft
>> filled with basket ball or larger rocks. I forget the weight
>> but over 2000 LBS.
Yes. I’ve seen those ‘wire containers’ at Home Depot.
I still hope that isn’t what this architect is planning on using.
I still think it’s going to look STUPID to have a bunch of rock dumped out there that is obviously NOT native to the site.
If they are going to do these ‘rock-retaining walls’… they should figure out how to do it with rock from the site itself.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Was surprised they have been using the road to access
>> the site privately. As you said maybe the Minuets of the
>> meeting will explain that and other info.
Well… the ‘minutes of the meeting’ that they HAVE bothered to publish DO mention some ‘alternate access’. plans that would somehow connect Shrines Road to the deployment site…
…but there’s nothing that has been published which says that was ever worked out with Rancher Maughan ( and anyone else involved ).
** THE LONG STORY
Here are some sections for minutes that HAVE been published…
From the January 6, 2013 minutes…
The moment the ‘Access Sub-committee’ was actually ‘formed’.
Only Chief Ben Palm and Ms. Lenora Nelson are reported to have volunteered to be on it, and then Chairman Martyn asked Chief Ben Palm if he would be interested in being the ‘Chairman’ of this ‘Access Sub-committee’ and Chief Ben Palm said YES…
——————————————————–
Mr. Martyn asked the Board members to volunteer to serve on the access subcommittee. Chief Ben Palm volunteered as well as Ms. Lenora Nelson. Mr. Martyn asked for public involvement for anyone that has knowledge or expertise in this area. Mr. Martyn said that it is important to reiterate that we do not have permission to access this privately owned land, but we do have permission from Arizona State Land Department. He has a temp right of way permit that was issued for the committee and their guests to access this land. Chief Ben Palm anyone needs to have legal permission to go there. Mr. Martyn asked if he would be interested in chairing this sub-committee and he agreed.
——————————————————
From the February 27, 2015 minutes…
All of a sudden… Darrell Willis ( and not Chief Ben Palm ) is being described as the ‘Chairman’ of the ‘Access Sub-Committee’ that was created at the previous meeting…
—————————————————————–
1. Discussion and Report of the Access Sub-Committee.
Darrell Willis, Chairman of the Access Sub-Committee, stated that the committee has had one meeting to date. There is no state or federal access to the site. The Board will need to work with the landowners in the area to gain access to the site. From the west and the south there is no access; will need to look at access from the east and the north of the site. One access route crosses private land, then state land, then private land again to get into the deployment site, about 3.1 miles in. The site itself is pretty well land locked by private property and without any funds to negotiate with the access into the site is pretty well limited. Senator Pierce said he spoke to Mr. Rex Maughn and he does not want to subdivide the 3.1 mile tract across dividing his land. Mr. Maughn would prefer if we help with developing an access plan. Senator Pierce will set up a meeting with Mr. Maughn to further discuss options with our access sub-committee within the next month.
—————————————————-
From the April 10, 2015 meeting minutes…
Now we are BACK to Chief Ben Palm ( and not Darrell Willis ) being described as the ‘Chairman’ of this ‘Access Sub-Committee’..
This is where Chief Ben Palm starts talking about this ‘alternate access’ from Shrine Road and it’s also the minutes where Deborah Pfingston gets up at the meeting and makes it crystal clear it will ALWAYS be her intention to try and put LIIMITS on who is able to access the deployment site itself.
Ms. Pfingston was actually allowed to be ON the ‘Design Sub-Committee’ for this Memorial project.
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3. Discussion and Report of the Access Sub-Committee.
Chief Palm hiked the area and access points prior to the meeting and used pictures in his presentation to show the Board members his findings. Access from Highway 89 is all state land making it easier to get easements. The hike in from small pull off is consistent with the terrain and distance at Storm King. The hike in contains a 2-track road that gets very rocky and steep. Once at the top of the basin you can look down onto the deployment site. Total hike to the crest is approximately two miles and another one-quarter mile down to the bottom. In regards to rescues from the site in the event of an emergency, Chief Palm said Yarnell Fire District would respond as they are the closest. He has some concern of specialized rescue equipment that would be needed.
** ALTERNATE ACCESS PLAN
Chief Palm advised the board of a possible plan for the 100 Club to purchase 160 acres at Shrine Road for the construction of a Wildland Academy PTSD Center. If this does happen it could be an alternate access point. Senator Pierce volunteered to contact Rex Maugham to ascertain his interest in easement discussions in the event that the 100 Club obtains ownership of the adjacent property.
Representative Fann would also like the Design Sub-Committee to proceed as if the access point will be off the Highway 89 entrance, as discussed, and establish some type of time frame to get the design portion of the project moving.
Ms. Pfingston loves the idea of coming in from the top as there’s a viewpoint from the top and access can be gained by hiking in on the two-track and believes it might help limit the amount of people accessing the deployment site itself. She agrees that a second access through the Shrine Road property would be great for those that are unable to hike the terrain as well as providing emergency access.
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From the July 31, 2015 minutes…
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2. Discussion and Report of the Access Sub-Committee.
* Mike King stated there was nothing to report.
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More info– this road is on Helms Property and being authorized for private use by Families and specific people by Helms.
That could only be the Tractor road to the site.
Helms still dose not sound like he wants a whole bunch of people in his back yard. He seems to be allowing some Family with guests but not many.
I am begging to wonder if they have the CART before THE HORSE????
Sorry Sonny. I can’t get on other thread on this cell. I did what you requested with Gary and epa. You know my home number works great for alarm system but not with landline always same problem with Lois and Wilma and Bucky…and new cell works cracky too because it works if I WiFi but not without… I am currently doing weight loss stuff or sanding my wood furniture or defensible space because its free yard debris at dump at end of the week so when I get back into yhf topic I will recreate the death list. Plus we have four days of health stuff between us two so looking like not much i m time this week for me Sonny.
Oh and Mae West the mascot dog… Her surgery went well today. Smiles.
They will keep her for a few days.
Reply to Gary: Indeed that site is cursed where 19 young men went to their deaths while trying to get to the “Ranch”. Were they going there to be protected or to protect the place? I think the latter. Someone knew about the million or so in expensive equipment used to fulfill government contracts and wanted to make sure it did not get burned.
Something those people that want to expend much taxpayer money for a memorial site ought to know. Joy and Snake Man, now deceased and ashes in a memorial box at the Prescott VA Cemetery very near my own father,s grave from WW1, — those two a few years back relocated rattlers on that very two track the 19 went down from. One time they had 48 in a box that were cut free–one of the reasons she later revealed to me why she did not want to short cut up to the two track that early Sunday morning of June 30, 2013.
Yes we would want no memorials at the Uranium mines and I for one would never go there if there ever were one for a loved one there. Cursed ground deserves no memorial.
You might want a snake run before making a memorial there since Joy has video of this and says there were at least triple that amount relocated in that area. I should say the cemetery in Prescott offers a nice memorial already. If you have a mind to eat at Arby’s right across the street you can see the large signs in recognition of their service and even visit their graves without all the political nonsense to go with it. The only good thing for that cursed ground visit would be to see how many mistakes were made by those men in getting themselves trapped like that. All firemen can learn from it–might be good to equip them with snake boots after talking with Joy.
Yes I do consider Gary’s father a hero–he gave his life for the explicit purpose of defending our country. He deserves every bit the honor given the GMHS and others but with Gary I do not see the point in honoring the cursed ground he was killed upon.
Joy shows her love of animals in relocating what most would kill. She sent a picture of a wild dove that landed on her last week–she keeps photos of so many things. I have never had a wild dove land on me or those other little critters like humming birds–that she has photos of as well as the little ground squirrels she holds in he hands. That is wild life that loves her as much as she loves them.
I ought to add–Joy even relocates black widow spiders and brown recluses. I had a couple brown recluses in this cabin but she did not want them killed–instead scoops them up and gets them outside. One of her helps to Yarnell is to relocate unwanted animals. I helped her relocate two skunks–one we had to chase around the local real estate office for a half hour before getting it trapped, That skunk might be with the other one down off the dirt road toward Stanton. Maybe they would have been better off on that two track.
Yes I have harped a lot about making that a training ground for young firefighters. I know those men would prefer that million that is going toward their memorial to be spent that way. At least to my way of thinking, had I been a part of a screw up like that I certainly would want the next generation of firefighters to learn what killed me and the mistakes I made. Look at what Donut said–that safety rule stuff is hill billy in his way of thinking. He couldn’t see the common sense in it and had no idea of safe fire fighting procedures. He thought just winging it by being there with his few months of fire fighting experience was enough. Whew could a Wayne Niel or a Bob Powers get that fellow straight and help him with fire fighting safe procedures.. Probably a good thing for him to take early retirement with that attitude. But very serious that people with long experience of firefighting get better equipment and better yet better training before being turned loose on these manzanita and forest wildfires. What good are statues that will likely get scorched once that area goes up again. Better that money goes toward training and better equipment, radios, and better organization than statues that only a few will ever be able to see unless they make them the size of the statue of liberty.
Also if you put the lookout on the two track, that is the wrong place. It should be on that knoll near the old grader where he was to show how close he was to the fire and you want him running toward a quad with the proper expression. The local gunsmith says the looks he had with eyes as big as donuts when he passed a group of locals was enough to put the fear of that fire in them so they too decided to made a run for it. I am not making that statement up either.
Reply to Sonny post on October 28, 2015 at 12:00 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Yes I have harped a lot about making that a training
>> ground for young firefighters. I know those men would
>> prefer that million that is going toward their memorial
>> to be spent that way.
It’s still a good idea, Sonny.
As for me… I still think the REAL solution here is to just ‘cut to the chase’ and have the State of Arizona just BUY the entire Boulder Springs Ranch and turn it into the AFWFTI ( Arizona Forestry Wildland Firefighter Training Institute )… and to also have it double as the actual ‘Visitor’s Center’ for the Public memorial.
Lee and DJ Helm were/are part of the 160+ property damage lawsuits filed against the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry… which are now on ‘appeal’ and might still go forward.
Lee and DJ Helm were asking for 6+ million dollars in damages.
I think Arizona State should just offer to settle with them for TWICE the fair market value of that entire compound… and give them 30 days to ‘take it or leave it’. After that… the offer drops to just ‘fair market value’ and they should just ‘acquire’ the property via ’eminent domain’ ( when a governmental agency just decided their is a higher ‘public’ use for a piece of land or property than private ownership ).
It would be perfect for BOTH purposes ( Training Center and Visitor’s Center ).
Plenty of parking, easy access via Lakewood Drive, bathrooms, handicap trail could be easily installed from there, plenty of large buildings for even housing the original Granite Mountain vehicles as part of the ‘Visitor’s Center’., plenty of room for ‘classrooms’ and then mandatory ‘classes’ there for all WFFs…. etc. etc.
It wold be a fitting ( lasting ) thing to come out of this tragedy and the peanuts it would take to acquire the property in a FAIR way to Lee and DJ Helm is nothing compared to the millions and millions of dollars they might still have to pay if the lawsuits continue.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> What good are statues that will likely get scorched once
>> that area goes up again.
You raise an interesting point there, Sonny.
By turning this blind box canyon into a memorial site… have they already automatically created a situation where the next time a fire starts in that area… one of the primary reasons to send people out into that same dangerous ground will be to DEFEND THE SITE?
Will the design for the memorial and the public park be following the same ‘fire-wise’ rules that these people are always saying everyone ELSE should observe?
Interesting question(s) there.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Better that money goes toward training and better
>> equipment, radios, and better organization than statues
>> that only a few will ever be able to see unless they make
>> them the size of the statue of liberty.
Again… totally agree.
And as for the “Larry the Lookout” statue idea…
I still wonder 2 things…
1) What will it LOOK like? How do you make a generic statue of a firefighter look like a lookout? Will it look like one of those famous Indian statues with his hand up to his forehead looking off into the distance?… or will he be looking through binoculars, or something?
2) Will there be a plaque on it that say something? If so, what?
Something like…
“This is a Wildland Lookout. His job is to make sure others know what the fire is doing when they are either working or traveling in an area where they can’t see exactly what the fire is doing. This is what the Granite Moutain Hotshots did NOT have that day when they all burned to death”.
Or something like that?
I think this whole thing with statues is jumping from a MEMORIAL TO A SHRINE INCLOSED CROSSES AND ALL.
If they make any of the statues look like the crewman or leaders of GM, its a Shrine and becomes self fulfilling to that family.
Or every one will want a statue of their family member in the area dedicated to them.
AND SO IT GOES——————————–
That is the best idea of all WTKTT. That Helms compound is already set up almost perfect for a training center as it is. It would take a bit of renovation but I would not mind seeing a few million in taxpayer money spent there considering how much good it would do the fire fighting profession and the public in training firefighters. These men are soldiers on the line and deserve the best. Thanks and I hope the media gets hold of your idea and someone with substance and clout gets involved to actually make it happen. That would be a true honor and recognition for the efforts ofl all firefighters. You know that those men’s deaths would not go in vain that way,.
As far as that two track, I would want a stature of Joy Collura sitting there balking and with her shoes off looking into the distance at the fire and in the direction of Donut’s statue down toward the Knoll where he was near the old grader. Maybe they will put a plaque below quoting some of his statements like “the rules are hill billy”. I think it is about time the public started realizing the truth of what happened up there instead of advertising a lie. Thanks to many of the people on JD’s site the story is slowly getting cleaned up. This is chapter 17 as we saw seventeen lead down to their demise by their leaders Eric and Jesse and I think that list includes some others above them. Perhaps by chapter 19 we will have the complete story and then these books, accolades and tripe we have had to wade through will be shown for what they are. Falsehood and coverup will never do in a situation that all need to understand. Why the hell the FBI does not get involved and see how our tax dollars are squandered is beyond my comprehension considering so many young lives were killed due to ignorance and lack of understanding of how to fight wild fires. The idea that those men just dropped off there because God had other plans for them is saying that men are nothing more than monkeys with no intelligence. We need every fact and every one involved in causing this tragedy needs reprimand and if suitable more training–preferably in that basin where their mistakes can be fully understood.
About the statues–a ridiculous idea. Whoever came up with it either does not know the facts of what really happened. Those monies are badly needed by the men on the line. However if they over ride the truth and do not do the proper thing of putting that into a training site, then the shortest and best route is eminent domain right through the Helms ranch. There is already a road right to the site and it is only a short distance that way to it.
I know this can be done since when I was a senior in High School the government came in with imminent domain to our home and threw us out on the desert at gunpoint. Their appraisers later had offered money that was what they thought was fair, but Dad had refused. So how much more important is a fire training resource than an overpass that leads to nowhere. If you go 7 miles west of Lordsburg, NM you can see that million dollar overpass that leads out into an empty desert both ways.
I do hope that WTKTT’s idea comes to fruition. That guy is a genius in his way of thinking things out.
Amen and Hallelujah to all of the comments written here by Sonny and others in reply. I have (almost) nothing more to add.
Sonny said, “Yes I do consider Gary’s father a hero–he gave his life for the explicit purpose of defending our country. He deserves every bit the honor given the GMHS and others but with Gary I do not see the point in honoring the cursed ground he was killed upon”
Thank you Sonny. My father does have a memorial to him. It is called a headstone the Veterans Administration paid for that marks his grave and details his WWII service as a Marine who served in the south pacific theater of operations. That is where I go to celebrate his life and remember him.
As we have both said, the cursed ground he was killed on deserves no memorial site and the only memorial the deployment grounds deserves is a true and accurate explanation of what happened on that cursed fire and what can be done to make sure it never happens again for wildland firefighters to study on a staff ride even if more advanced training (which it should be) is never done there.
None of that will detract from the fact that all of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots were heroes before they died…not because of it.