Investigative MEDIA

Please begin Yarnell Hill Chapter XXI here

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Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX and Chapter XX.

© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

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  1. Well…many of you have certainly busy little bloggers or…whatever. Where to even start? OMG!

    I have so many questions and so little patience.

    I’m sorry…but I do have to start with this one. The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters now has an OFFICE?

    What comes next…an Andreas Lubitz Foundation for Airline Passengers?

    Yes…I know, that one WAS over the line. I did say I identify with Mr. Marsh and no matter how hard I try…I can’t even begin to identify with Mr. Lubitz. I have never been interested (even a little bit) in being a pilot.

    As Otis likes to quote, “THE GODDAMN PLANE HAS [WAS} CRASHED INTO THE MOUNTAIN!” (The Big Lebowski).

    Reply

    • Fernanda Santos again.
      That article is almost MORE about the recent Ft. McMurray Wildfire ( Alberta, Canada ) than it is about Yarnell.

      Reply

  5. YARNELL- Captain Kristee Lewis as I was sliding down a boulder approached me and said people were wondering who was on the Mountain top taking photos and I replied she of all people should of known it was Joy- who else on an extreme hot day goes out on the mountain- remember June 30th- I do. She asked me as I locked Sonny’s gate what I am afraid of coming in and I replied you ever seen his surveillance cameras you would not ask that—mountain lions don’t listen to the signs and fence but that ain’t my worries- I kept walking because I up there for hours with no water…she looked good- she said she lost 45 pounds…it shows—I am passing a stone so going down the boulders in extreme flank pain I was not into anymore dialect but I can tell you this I saw and heard everything—I heard a woman say this is a horrible city- and another said who ever organized this race to keep seeing the same houses or burnt not rebuilt houses is boring. Another said where did the men die and a person pointed wrong and I hid in the boulders and said where and they looked everywhere for me and said “did you hear that”…”it sounded like the men spoke”…the other said “yeah that was creepy” than another said what is investigative media ???? and TOO MANY said after the race they were driving back to get photos of this INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA property and probably 18 said “that is the hiker” as they pointed Sonny out when he was doing irrigation and working on his Harley Davidson. Two of the Amanda Marsh’s new tshirt blonde girls pass by twice and looked his way but that was it…Only saw 2 tshirts of Amanda’s new logo grey tees from the run and saw about 5 blue Esse GMHS phrase…than I really enjoyed the neon shirt tribe ladies as they were having such a blast…Many did not run all the way but I could see them on all the streets from certain boulder views and there was a few that ran the complete time. My top memory was watching a father teach his teen son how to pace himself and he was so good in his coaching- Than Leigh Tidey passes by with another with Chuck Tidey way behind with Mike Manone. The kids seem to learn to “cheat” and not use the whole designated path and some look too overheated and need to be there— and the water kids below me kept peaking up and that is when cops came and the captain of fire dept said what she did but guess what I can be taken photos—it is a public event—plus I had quite a few ask where their pics will be and I said GO TO INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA chapter 21 and I will have a link there and enjoy-
    I wore my INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA tshirt I custom made and I was totally there as the IM cheerleader—I do not care of some hate and view this site the way they do but I will keep asking and digging and getting information out in regards to YHF.

    Reply

  6. MOUNTAIN TOP VIEWS:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVTB3NWJ2bXlxbjQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFMFBPMVBib01MU2c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVm4zZ2ZMSXhqbFU/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFWnR4LU5KdjNKa1k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFWGh2eHZ2Q1h2Szg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNHFWWFZrZ0lvM1U/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFeXdDSTNHQTdpQkk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFaERvcEVSaWN2bEk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFS0JtU1R4bjVwaVk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbDFpZS16N3RSemc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVFlKUzVnWkFsRDg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFOWZVWHNoR29wbHc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZ2t4SVhqa3l5RVk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZWhwWFRLVG5CMkE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFU0MxdnhVdmgxY1k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbE55Y3FydTQ1a3c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZUU1elFOYk15Qk0/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNE5JNVl2SlNZa00/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVVlRazVVM2JMVjQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFR0Zib0RkbVBrNlE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFeDBRMW5mYlpWOG8/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNHZWNTBNeHhjbE0/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFTXNfZGtNODZQM1k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVmpZV0pHT04wV28/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFRHBXMlRPajZWVFU/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFSHZuaUxoSFBZU1U/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFb2lYQ2RnVmdKXzg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFMXdPUDE0SjdoUk0/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbE1jd2NfVUJLR0E/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFb1hVSzlBOHowMTQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFcFZCU2hUbW8zY00/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFV0ZpOEhMRXRvWjA/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbXFPRzJMQXp4RGc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdXN6RHcwODRiTGM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZWFMYXdBN0l6S2s/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFLUZTUzMtTnEwTlE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFc3haLWRYTGF0YWs/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFclZ4enhIUzVUem8/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFLWJpb3Vkci03aXc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFcmtFZlg3ZHE2WUk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFelBNUjlDTGJELVk/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFX0p6a2FzZm9tNTQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFc0N3WjhQX1RzcEU/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFd3JhYTZVYUxKeVE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFUW5VVlpESXFJdDg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFUmUzNGFISzhNdnc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZzYxZVJKUUwxVGc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFT3FJMkNSMFBXemc/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFX09RN0tDZ29rSEU/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFaVFzektGYjluSTg/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFOGtwLTJoQzREa28/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFRXFwRk5MRXFjUFE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFd2VKdVZfU1QxeEE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFaTcyM0swSWtYN2M/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFRWNBS29heU13VWc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdWtoVmQyRkpsT2c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdkVPRmRTQ0VFNms/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVTdqNXo5bmJKZGM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFaGdSUl9IVUI1ekk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdkdSTDNGZG9UdFE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFeGhZTnVoYTZ5Z0k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbnJnLVdIZ1NnbHM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFejQ1OHpUejlwOWM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFYXFFcG1IVy11RU0/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVW9kNHVIQk95WWs/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNHE0MktBYlNDR0E/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVk1LNFVuYkhBV3c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFLVRQcUN0TzZlMGs/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZE1WZFZra1Jjc0E/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFMnhVYno5Q0tBaGM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNlV0SFVYazZxdWc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbmFkQm1mLWRoaFU/view?usp=sharing

    Reply

  7. I see on Safety Matters that Holly has decided that my comments are counter productive to her agenda and took them all off in fact I can not get on that Blog to comment any more.

    All I can say is it has become different than what it was intended to be.

    All I did was ask specific questions that she would not answer.

    Holly you are still a wantabe in my book.

    Reply

    • Bob,

      I read what you wrote before it was (apparently – I haven’t verified) taken down. All you did was offer good questions and more of the story. Good to know that other viewpoints are apparently not accepted there. There were at least 2 other ff that had very good counterpoints to the ‘agenda’ as well. I wonder if they were censored? Shucks. Even ol’ Maclean himself chimed in that it was a good discussion.

      Truth hurts…and she’s got her work cut out for her defending her positions. In fact, she has put almost all of her eggs in the basket that Marsh was a CRWB and NOT a DIVS at Horseshoe 2. We already have a post that IM that I believe is stating that he WAS an actual DIVS that day. Now if that proves to be truth then – Oops!

      I read through a lot more of the ‘stories’ and comments and noticed another little tibbit: Elizabeth Nolwicki (sp?)said that the rules of wildland firefighting were ‘horatory.’ Ha! You gotta love the wordsmiths.

      Horatory: “The definition of hortatory is a person or thing that pleads or strongly requests someone to take a particular action.”

      20 hrs ago, Mr Hicks of Adosh posted this (in case it gets taken down)

      “Barry Hicks I want to remind folks that there were two investigations with different results. I was a member of the ADOSH investigation team and I know what our limitations were but I am still learning of information that was withheld from us not the least of which Mike Dudley knew about and failed to share with us. There are a number of questions that remain and will take years to learn as long as the FS refuses to let all the information be shared openly. I would hope that the FS would change its approach and allow all their employees to talk openly without threat of retaliation. I know that both investigations had flaws but I do think the ADOSH investigation could have been more successful had they not been legally limited to 6 months to file their report.”

      He said “information was withheld from us.” Is that lawful?

      One of my favorite posts there in that thread by Mr. Jared Judd:

      “Jared Judd “Was part of the reason (for failure) being the delay caused by refusal??”

      Hughes says “probably”.
      IMO Hughes’ “probably” is as much opinionated and political/liability induced conjecture as any other part of this story. Why not ask the question: was over aggressive tactics, despite the refusal of highly qualified crews, part of the reason for failure??
      What assets at risk caused the decision to attempt such time-sensitive and aggressive tactics in the first place? I/E did the ever opinionated IC have justification for the wasted and possibly unsafe suppression attempt??”

      In fact, it’s so insightful that I wish Mr. Judd would join in the discussion here as well.

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • I went in before I posted and all I could do was read the info no location to input I have been on there since it was created. Oh Well.

        Yes Jared Judd is well informed I have read some of his statements over the years.

        Reply

        • Some one should ask Holly who exactly was the DIVS if it was not Marsh.

          That peace of information I have been waiting for as well.

          Actually posting the Official written Turn Downs would show why the Crews were not agreeing with the assignment. Who was asking them to do it Etc.

          Reply

          • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 4, 2016 at 3:46 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> Some one should ask Holly who exactly was the DIVS
            >> if it was not Marsh.

            Exactly.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> That peace of information I have been waiting for as well.
            >>
            >> Actually posting the Official written Turn Downs would
            >> show why the Crews were not agreeing with the
            >> assignment.

            You bet… and something tells me THAT is part of the WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION that former Gernomi Hotshot Superintendent was actually offering Mike Dudley and the SAIT, back in that first week of August, 2013.

            That’s the DOCUMENTATION that Mike Dudley didn’t WANT to see.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Who was asking them to do it Etc.

            What Holly Neill doesn’t seem to realize is that whether or not Eric Marsh was ( or wasn’t ) officially a DIVS at that time… even her own research doesn’t dispute the fact that it was Eric Marsh ASKING the other Type 1 Supts. to do something… and those Supts. decided it was WAAAAY to unsafe… too risky… at that time… and they said “No way”.

            So the fundamental ‘story’ doesn’t really change regardless of whether Marsh was a DIVS or just a CRWB at that time.

            The ‘risky assignment’ still seemed to be coming from HIS MOUTH.

            Also… don’t forget that if you just look at the ‘Resource Records’ for a fire… that doesn’t tell you who anyone really was at any particular time.

            Even if all you had to go on for Yarnell were the ‘Resource Records’… all they will tell you is that Eric Marsh was there in Yarnell as a STCR ( Strike Team Leader, Crew ).

            You would never be able to tell from just the Resource Records that Eric Marsh really had become ‘Division A’ at 10:30 AM that Sunday, when the fire officially transitioned to Roy Hall’s Type 2 SHORT team.

            Reply

    • Barry Hicks I want to remind folks that there were two investigations with different results. I was a member of the ADOSH investigation team and I know what our limitations were but I am still learning of information that was withheld from us not the least of which Mike Dudley knew about and failed to share with us. There are a number of questions that remain and will take years to learn as long as the FS refuses to let all the information be shared openly. I would hope that the FS would change its approach and allow all their employees to talk openly without threat of retaliation. I know that both investigations had flaws but I do think the ADOSH investigation could have been more successful had they not been legally limited to 6 months to file their report.
      https://www.facebook.com/SafetyMattersWildlandFirefighterForum/

      you are right Bob-
      wow.
      your comment vanished

      Reply

        • Do you think Holly Neill is actually telling John Maclean that she is just throwing any comments she doesn’t LIKE ‘on the floor’?

          I’m beginning to worry about this John Maclean guy.

          I wonder if he is actually fully aware of what Holly Neill’s own agenda is?

          I imagine he will continue to defend her since he has already ‘hitched his wagon’ to her… and she is already known as one of his prime researchers for his book on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

          If he ever has to back-away from her… then he’s putting a lot of his own ‘research’ information on the ‘questionable’ shelf as well.

          Reply

  8. The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 2:06 PM

    Crystal was likely overwhelmed by the onslaught of comments directed at her following her initial comment. I would like to think that all of that didn’t scare her off from further comment, but in actuality, I think it did.

    Reply
    WantsToKnowTheTruth says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 3:49 PM

    Wait for it.

    Reply
    The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 8:29 PM

    I hope I’m wrong.

    Reply
    WantsToKnowTheTruth says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 8:43 PM

    Seriously… wait for it.

    Reply

    MY REPLY: CRYSTAL WAS NEVER GOING TO COME FORWARD—SEEN THIS IN PERSON BEHIND THE SCENES TOO MUCH—FREAKING TEASERS—THEY ARE TOO COWARD TO DO IT OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT WAIT THREE YEARS TO COME FORWARD AND JUST GIVE A TINY TIDBIT— SERIOUS!

    Reply

    • http://yarnellmemorialrun.com/

      GENERAL INFORMATION & RACE RULES

      Cancellations:
      Entry fees are NON-REFUNDABLE and NON-TRANSFERABLE.
      Rules:

      All runners must be at least 15 years old to participate in the 10K, and 19K—SAW VERY YOUNG KIDS WITH A NUMBER???
      All runners must be in good health and physically prepared to take on the challenge of the race. I SAW SOME WAY OUT OF SHAPE FOLKS OUT THERE?
      All runners must show photo ID to receive a race packet.
      If, due to age, the runner does not have a photo ID, a legal parent or legal guardian must verify runner’s information. I DID ENJOY ALOT A FATHER TEACHING HIS SON HOW TO PACE HIMSELF FOR THE RACE- THAT WAS A COOL DAD!
      All runners must pick up your own race packet on race day.
      Race numbers are required in order to participate and must be worn on the outside of clothing and visible.
      No coaches WELL DAD 🙂 , handcycles, bikes, in-line skates, skateboards, roller states, or any type of running assistance is allowed.
      Runners must enter the starting gate at least ten minutes prior to the start.
      No alcohol, tobacco, illegal substances, performance enhancing substances of any kind will be allowed. BUT MANY ON CELL PHONES OR TOOK PICS OF SONNY’S INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA PROPERTY AND MIGHT OF SCREWED THEIR OVERALL TIMES TO WIN ANYTHING
      No compensation of any type will be paid if your picture is taken and used by the committee.OR ME.
      If you consider yourself to have a disability please contact the Race Director/committee to discuss your entry prior to filling out your application. Under no circumstance will accommodations be made at the last minute.
      Medical team members have the authority to disqualify any runner they consider to be acting dangerously or to be unfit to compete.
      Course Time Limits – To ensure that roads reopens to vehicular traffic at the scheduled times, the course time limits will be STRICTLY ENFORCED. Once the 11am time limit has been reached, all remaining runners on the course will be instructed to use the sidewalks and /or road side from that point on.
      In the event of any dispute the decision of the Race Director(s) and/or committee shall be final.
      Absolutely no early starters are allowed on the race course.
      Toilets and hydrastations will be located at selected mile markers with adequate signage.

      Reply

    • my reply to Tired of Bickering below in CAPS:

      Tired of Bickering says
      MAY 29, 2016 AT 11:56 PM

      This thread of comments does seem to offer some sort of insight into the deadly day almost three years ago.THAN YOU HAVE NOT READ IT FROM DAY ONE UNTIL NOW AND ARE JUST ONE OF THE INFAMOUS POP-INS BECAUSE IT IS THIS SITE THAT HAS GIVEN THE yhf MUCH MORE CLARITY THAN ANY OTHER AREA OUT THERE PUBLIC- Unfortunately, it deteriorates into an opinion and emotionally driven piece of finger pointing NOT SO MUCH AS DISCUSSIONS OF DIVERSE OPINIONS AND I AM GLAD THESE PEOPLE TEE IT UP VERSUS THE COWARDS AT HOME THAT DO NOT-=—that is more destructive than constructive. YOUR OPINION—Opinion driven pieces of inflammatory “this one time I saw or felt”, does not address the facts of the day or the culture of coverup that many of you seem to associate with the responding agencies in question.OBVIOUS A POP-IN— 82 comments thus far and most of them are from the same individuals arguing with each other,I RATHER SEE AN ARGUMENT TO WORK IT THROUGH THAN KEEP ONE’S MOUTH SHUT AND BE A COWARD— It makes a reader wonder if any of you really want resolution and discovery regarding this tragedy or if you are simply vested in proving the previous commenter wrong.THAT’S A BULLSHIT-

      A suggestion,
      Offer a report of your own, with the information that is provided in all of these comments. Why would anybody who is unfamiliar with what happened read the narrative offered and the subsequent comments and draw any conclusion other than a bunch of angry people screaming at each other that claim to want truth from these events.WELL IT TAKES ARGUMENT TO GET SOMEWHERE SOMETIMES— Presenting a logical alternative that is absent of finger pointing is the most beneficial apparatus to achieve the learning most of you seem to say you are after.GO CRAWL BACK IN YOUR HOLE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT COME HERE AND SAY . HI AM SO AND SO AND I HAVE BEEN A LONG TIME READER OF THE SITE AND….IF YOU JUST DROP BY THAN YOU AIN’T GOING TO GET IT—

      Reply

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/

      Reply

  10. Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 4, 2016 at 6:38 am

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> It’s on imdb. Look at jennifer connelly page
    >> I saw it online

    Thank you, Joy. Yes… this ‘Yarnell’ movie thing has now officially come onto the ‘radar’ up at IMDB and now has its own IMDB page.

    http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/

    And I guess the TITLE CHANGE is ‘official’ now.

    The TITLE of the new Kosinski Movie really does look like it’s been changed from “No Exit” to just “Granite Mountain”.

    There are now actually TWO cast members whose ROLES are also being listed with their names. Some of the rest of the actors can be assumed to be playing certain people, but there has still been no official confirmation…

    Josh Brolin = ( Assumed ) Eric Marsh?
    Miles Teller = ( Assumed ) Jesse Steed?
    Jeff Bridges = Unknown. Possible Darell Willis or Gary Cordes.
    Taylor Kitsch = Unknown. A Hotshot?
    James Badge Dale = Unknown. A Hotshot?

    Jennifer Connelly = Amanda Marsh

    Scott Haze = Whitted

    Scott Haze is the one who just recently played the character ‘Levi’ in the movie ‘Midnight Special’.

    There is now also THIS ( on the official IMDB page )…

    —————————————————————
    The TRUE STORY of the Fallen 19 Firefighters of the Granite Mountain
    Hot Shots Crew from Prescott Arizona.
    —————————————————————

    How long, do ya think, before someone clues them in about the ‘Hot Shots’ spelling thing? Hopefully before the movie actually comes out?

    As for “The TRUE STORY” part… unless they have abandoned the original GQ “No Exit” article as the basis for the script… then there is not a chance in hell.

    Reply

  11. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH IS NOW A NEW ‘HOLD FAST’
    ** MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER

    >> Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 9:17 pm
    >>
    >> Joy A. Collura posted a link…
    >>
    >> https://youtu.be/wst5TjTRvTM

    Brendan McDonough is now ‘onboard’ as one of the official speakers for a motivational company/organization known as ‘HoldFast’.

    Brendan McDonough: HoldFast
    Published on May 20, 2016.
    YouTube video…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wst5TjTRvTM&feature=youtu.be

    Video Caption…
    HoldFast Speakers and Programs are tailored to grow your organization’s leadership
    and improve employee culture. Find out more at www (dot) holdfasthq (dot) com.

    From the HOME ( banner ) page of this ‘Hold Fast’ organization…
    ———————————————————————————
    HOLD FAST
    We empower veterans to change lives
    Our programs and presenters inspire and empower leaders to improve
    your organization’s culture, improve employee engagement, and increase profitability.
    HoldFast works with inspirational speakers that bring our Proven Programs to life at your event.
    Recent Clients…
    Vineyard Vines, Coca Cola, Jeffries, La Quinta Inns and Suites,
    Chase Bank, The NFL, Instrumentation Laboratory ( a Werfen Company ),
    Jack Links ( Sausages ), Compeat Restaurant Management Systems,
    The Ben E. Keith Company – Food Service Distributors, The NCAA, etc.
    ———————————————————————————

    Transcript of this ‘Hold Fast’ promotional video…

    NOTE: So the WINDS are now up to SIXTY MILES PER HOUR, eh?

    Brendan is ‘catching on’. Drama sells. It really does.

    Sole speaker = Brendan McDonough
    ————————————————————————————–
    The winds were 60 miles an hour… and the fire had made a 180 degree shift,
    and what shoulda happened in 2 hours happened in 5 minutes.

    My name is Brendan McDonough… and living in Northern Arizona, a huge part
    of what we live with during the summer is wildfires.

    It brought so much peace to my life to be able to fight fire. It brought purpose.

    Not as a individual… but as a team… as a crew… as a TRIBE.

    On June 30th, 2013, me and my 19 brothers were called to Yarnell to battle
    a wildfire.

    Throughout the day… I was moved to be the lookout to watch over my crew and
    to inform them on the behavior and the weather.

    During that time the fire had started to shift… and the fire had moved with…
    ya know… great verocity… and they were overrun.

    And… uh.. 19 men perished that day.

    For me… after the tragedy… trying to conquer my battle with depression and PTSD,
    there was no way I could beat this on my own. I needed to reach out for help.

    I needed to rebuild my TRIBE.

    I lost 19 men… but every one of those men had taught me more than just firefighting.

    That sense of brotherhood and being a part of a TRIBE is beyond firefighting.
    It’s within our communities. It’s within the businesses that we work for.. and for
    me to have this opportunity to be able to speak about them gives me joy… to
    carry on their legacy.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • For the record… I am still VERY concerned about Brendan McDonough’s mental and emotional health. I surely hope people that care for him are watching him very carefully.

      I hope he’s not just continually re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic… if you catch my drift.

      Reply

        • If you say so.

          I can show you online information that says it’s all a crock of shit… but what’s the point.

          WHATEVER help he is getting… I hope it’s good… and I hope it’s ENOUGH.

          The guy still worries me.

          Does he REALLY intend to make a CAREER out being a VICTIM?

          Reply

          • WTKTT,

            Posted in Tucsonnewsnow.com, Yarnell Hill Fire survivor: ‘It’s a tough life to live’ Monday, May 2nd 2016

            “He [Brendan McDonough] said EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy has worked well for him. The therapy has helped to treat his trauma and psychological stress.

            “I think it’s going to be a lifelong journey of dealing with these triggers and anxiety and PTSD,” McDonough said. “It’s something I’m looking more into and become educated because it’s a part of me now.”

            http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/31868224/yarnell-hill-fire-survivor-its-a-tough-life-to-live

            From the Arizona Trauma Recovery Network
            http://www.mrcnaccho.org/arizona-trauma-recovery-network-aztrn-aztrn-coordinated-community-response-licensed-mental-health

            (From a client): “EMDR has been life changing for me. I am a survivor of the Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona. Prior to EMDR and the Arizona Trauma Recovery Network, my ability to function was quite low because I was being triggered by things which reminded me of the tragedy. Now I am able to live a somewhat normal life. I am so grateful to my EMDR therapist.”

            http://www.mrcnaccho.org/arizona-trauma-recovery-network-aztrn-aztrn-coordinated-community-response-licensed-mental-health

            Also from the article, one of the victims of a Tucson shooting incident claimed EMDR was successful.

            “Ron credits EMDR therapy with helping him move forward in his life and his ability to continue to be available to his family and the community. One of Ron’s daughters, and one of his granddaughters, was also present and spoke about their own experience of recovery from the trauma. Additionally, a law enforcement officer, James Brady, poignantly shared about his recovery from a critical incident with the use of EMDR therapy.”

            I’ve talked to YH Fire survivors, including GMHS family, friends, and loved ones, and they say it works, they don’t know how, only that it works.

            And my favorite YouTube 20/20 segment of EMDR that provides a very informative overview.

            “No one understands exactly why this method succeeds, only that it does” says the narrator.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTLLfdcJE0Q

            There is a lot more online evidence that shows that it works compared to not working.

            McDonough does seem to be on an odyssey of victim-hood with lots of encouragement, and I allege it includes spreading lies about what really happened and why.

            Reply

  12. **
    ** ACTRESS JENNIFER CONNELLY TO PLAY ROLE OF AMANDA MARSH
    ** IN THE UPCOMING KOSINSKI-DIRECTED YARNELL FILM

    Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> Look what actress plays Amanda Marsh

    http://deadline.com/2016/06/jennifer-connelly-granite-mountain-hotshot-movie-no-exit-1201766808/

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————–
    EXCLUSIVE: Jennifer Connelly is joining Josh Brolin, Miles Teller, Jeff Bridges and Taylor Kitsch in Granite Mountain (previously titled No Exit), the feature film based on the 20-member Granite Mountain Hotshots who fought the deadliest wildfire ever in Arizona’s history and were trapped on a mountainside in a circle of fire. The story of these true American heroes — 19 of whom died while trying to protect the lives of others — was written by Ken Nolan and Eric Warren Singer and will be directed by Joe Kosinski (Oblivion).

    Connelly is set to play the role of Amanda Marsh, the wife and “horse-whispering farrier” of the supervisor of the Tier One team of Hotshots.

    It’s known that in drafting the story, the filmmakers spoke to the lone surviving member of the 20-man crew, Brendan McDonough.

    Connelly, who won a Best Supporting Actress Oscar for A Beautiful Mind, is repped by CAA and RMS Productions.
    ——————————————————————————–

    Notice that ( according to THIS ) article… the NEW title for the movie is
    now simply…

    “Granite Mountain” ( instead of the former title “No Exit” ).

    So far… of the list of ‘names’ signed up for the movie… the Jennifer Connelly announcement contains the only ‘confirmation’ about which PART is assigned to which actor…

    Jennifer Connelly = Amanda Marsh

    There is no IMDB page for the movie yet, and none of the other PARTS that any of the other ‘committed’ actors will be playing have been ‘officially’ announced… but the following is ‘assumed’…

    Josh Brolin = ( Assumed ) Eric Marsh
    Miles Teller = ( Assumed ) Jesse Steed
    Jeff Bridges = Unknown… but probably either Darrell Willis or Gary Cordes.
    Taylor Kitsch = Unknown… but could be playing Brendan McDonough

    This is all being ‘brought to you by’ Conde Naste productions, who have found a niche in running articles in their magazines and then turning them into movies.

    The script for this ‘Yarnell’ thing follows the same ‘Conde Naste’ pattern and is ( supposedly ) based on the article called “No Exit” that they ran in their ‘GQ’ magazine affiliate some time ago.

    So even though they have changed the movie title from “No Exit” to ( supposedly ) just “Granite Mountain”… if the script is still based on that original “No Exit” article then we know what the movie will look like.

    In other words… specially painted American Flag popcorn boxes will be sold at all the concession stands when this movie opens.

    The ‘blurb’ that keeps appearing with these movie articles keeps changing… and lookee here what they are NOW saying the movie is ‘about’…

    ———————————————————————————-
    The logline: “Always a Tier Two team cleaning up after the elite Tier One ‘Hotshots’ who follow the wildfires during the season, the Prescott Wildland Firefighters – under the tireless training and perfectionism of their Supervisor Eric Marsh – become the first Municipal firemen to become Tier One themselves. A tight family of twenty, they’re the lead when lightning ignites the dry tinder on the hills beyond Yarnell. When a storm moves in and the wind shifts, the fire reverses course and picks up incredible speed. By luck, one of the young Hotshots, Brendan makes it out… but Eric and the other nineteen members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots tragically perish.”
    ———————————————————————————-

    Soooo… apparently Eric Marsh got tired of always just having to clean the port-a-potties for the Type 1 Hotshot Crews… and nothing would do that he use his ‘perfectionism’ to move himself and the people working for him up the ‘show’ at the ‘next level’.

    Yea… right… that’s the ticket.

    And “They’re the lead when lightning strikes…”

    Really?

    If they actually HAD been “the lead” when “lightning struck” ( on Friday )… there would be no movie and Brolin and the others would be free to do more Marvel Comic sequels.

    Oh… forgot to mention…

    The popcorn boxes with the American Flags printed on them that will be available at all the concession stands will also have the following ‘disclaimer’ printed in fine-print on the bottom of the boxes…

    “Management would like to inform you that if you came to see a movie that has more ‘truth’ and ‘accuracy’ in it than this one… we suggest you go next door and catch the new release of “Finding Nemo – Part 4′”

    Reply

        • Above I wrote

          In this links it shows Amanda in list…Darn cell…speaking of Amanda her fundraising race event is about to pass Sonnys investigative media property and ptsd dog…locals said they went prior years when it was five bucks but now it’s twenty..and one said they have millions and I still have no home…nor help. Now that is sad that the.cronies think they know the locals needs

          Reply

      • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 4, 2016 at 6:38 am

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> It’s on imdb. Look at jennifer connelly page
        >> I saw it online

        Thank you, Joy. Yes… this ‘Yarnell’ movie thing has now officially come onto the ‘radar’ up at IMDB and now has its own IMDB page.

        http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/

        And I guess the TITLE CHANGE is ‘official’ now.

        The TITLE of the new Kosinski Movie really does look like it’s been changed from “No Exit” to just “Granite Mountain”.

        There are now actually TWO cast members whose ROLES are also being listed with their names. Some of the rest of the actors can be assumed to be playing certain people, but there has still been no official confirmation…

        Josh Brolin = ( Assumed ) Eric Marsh?
        Miles Teller = ( Assumed ) Jesse Steed?
        Jeff Bridges = Unknown. Possible Darell Willis or Gary Cordes.
        Taylor Kitsch = Unknown. A Hotshot?
        James Badge Dale = Unknown. A Hotshot?

        Jennifer Connelly = Amanda Marsh

        Scott Haze = Whitted

        Scott Haze is the one who just recently played the character ‘Levi’ in the movie ‘Midnight Special’.

        There is now also THIS ( on the official IMDB page )…

        —————————————————————
        The TRUE STORY of the Fallen 19 Firefighters of the Granite Mountain
        Hot Shots Crew from Prescott Arizona.
        —————————————————————

        How long, do ya think, before someone clues them in about the ‘Hot Shots’ spelling thing? Hopefully before the movie actually comes out?

        As for “The TRUE STORY” part… unless they have abandoned the original GQ “No Exit” article as the basis for the script… then there is not a chance in hell.

        Reply

  13. Happy Belated 73rd Birthday John Mac Lean-

    (candles lit on a fancy birthday cake)

    whoosh…candles out!

    woohoo

    Reply

            • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 10:35 pm

              >> Joy A. Collura posted a link…
              >>
              >> http://www.watertreehealth.com/2014/01/one-person-inspires-action/

              Thank you, Joy.

              Yep… JP Vicente and Ray Maione… pickin’ up another $18,000 check….

              ————————————————————–
              It would have been easy to simply collect the monies, totaling $18,000, and end the effort by sending a check to the firefighters fund. A feel good act in deed, and something that all employees of Watertree Health would have been proud of, especially as it was nearing the Christmas season and the end of the year. But the thought among Watertree Health’s senior officers, including McKiernan, was that the gesture would mean more, if a personal visit to Prescott could be arranged as a show of respect to the community and its loss.

              Ray Maione, Vice President of Members Services for Local 493, the firefighters union in Prescott, welcomed the idea of a visit by the Watertree Health executives. It seemed everyone affiliated with the fire department in Prescott felt the same.

              On Thursday, December 19th, John McKiernan, Matt Herfield, Shane Power and Joe Kleiman arrived in Scottsdale and were escorted to Prescott by Charles Cicconi, a representative of Local 493. The men were welcomed in Prescott by Fire Capt. J.P. Vicente who took the four visitors to the burial site where all 19 fallen firefighters had been laid to rest, and the site of a future memorial in their honor.

              PHOTO
              (L-R) J.P. Vicente, J. McKiernan, M. Herfield, S. Power, J. Kleiman and C. Cicconi.

              Following the gravesite visit, Capt. Vicente arranged a tour of the firehouse that was once home to the 19 Hotshots. There, the Watertree Health team presented the department with a check representing the funds raised by the West Coast reps.
              ————————————————————–

              DAYUM ( as Marti would say ).

              I didn’t realize how SHORT this JP Vicente guy is.

              And the real question(s) still linger…

              WHERE ( exactly ) did all this money GO??????

              Reply

        • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 9:02 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura said…
          >>
          >> WTKTT… is this the guy you brought up recent

          Yep. That’s him.

          JP Vicente’s little sidekick.

          AZFAMILY
          Article Title: Some charities not handing over money meant for Hotshot families
          Posted: Oct 19, 2015 11:51 PM CST
          http://www.azfamily.com/story/30301885/some-charities-not-handing-over-money-meant-for-hot-shot-families

          What the article does NOT mention is that at the ‘100 Club’ of Arizona itself has never been held accountable for the upwards of 13 to 14 MILLION DOLLARS that entered THEIR possession in the name of “The Granite Mountain Hotshots”.

          I repeat: 13 to 14 MILLION DOLLARS.

          They ( The Arizona ‘100 Club’ ) have been apparently just ‘doling it out’ as THEY see fit… to whichever family members THEY feel like giving money to.

          Example: It is still rumored that they just ‘decided’ that Grant McKee’s girlfriend ( Leah Fine ) was actually Grant’s ‘fiance’ ( even though Grant’s mother Marcia McKee denies that was actually the case )… and the ‘100 Club’ supposedly then sent Leah Fine and HER entire family on a trip around the world…

          …while Marcia McKee herself ( Grant McKee’s biological mother ) hasn’t seen a DIME from the ‘100 Club’ of Arizona.

          It’s also still rumored that Marcia McKee has also never seen one single penny of the LOD Death Benefit she was automatically entitled to receive when her son Grant died in that fucked-up Arizona Forestry workplace.

          Reply

          • Whoops… I just noticed something.

            In Shannon Clark’s original email to Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry is where she was telling Hernbrode that some of the Granite Mountain family members did NOT want ‘JP Vicente’ and ‘Ray Malone’ to be at the family Q/A day on February 5, 2016…

            ———————————————————————————
            From: Clark, Shannon L.
            Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:05 AM
            To: Joy Hernbrode
            Cc: McGroder, Patrick J.
            Subject: Q&A
            Importance: High

            Hi Joy:

            ( snip )

            Clients are ok with COPFD being there for support, but some have requested that JP Vicente and Ray Malone NOT be there.

            ( snip )
            ———————————————————————————–

            However.. it looks like the guy’s name is actually Ray Maione ( with an ‘i’ and not an ‘l’ )… and Shannon Clark was getting it wrong.

            The article above and the articles about the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery having to call the POLICE on JP Vicente also spell it ‘Ray Maione’ and not ‘Ray Malone’.

            Reply

              • Yes, Joy. That is Ronald ( Ronnie ) Gamble.

                Former Blue Ridge Hotshot who was on the BR crew in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

                This is the same ‘Ronald Gamble’ who supposedly shot the now-famous YARNELL-GAMBLE video while he was sitting in the Driver’s Seat of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers, parked at the Shrine Road Youth Camp, at 4:27 PM that Sunday.

                The YARNELL-GAMBLE video is the one that captures Eric Marsh clearly reporting Granite Mountain’s ‘status’, at 4:27 PM, to someone who wanted to know about it.

                Marsh said “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

                That is also ( supposedly ) in response to the other voice at the start of the video who appears to have been urging Marsh to have Granite Mountain “Hurry Up”.

                Ronald Gamble has been interviewed since Yarnell ( like in the article you point to above )… but there has always been an ‘official’ present from the Prescott Fire Department and no one has ever been allowed to even ASK him any questions about that video… even though by the end of 2013 he no longer even worked for the US Forestry Service.

                It is still possible he remembers more about that video he shot at 4:27 PM… and WHO it might have been that Eric Marsh felt the need to be ‘reporting’ Granite Mountain’s hiking status to at 4:27 PM… just 12 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to appear on the Air-To-Ground radio channel.

                Reply

  14. This email came from a person behind the scene who asked the hikers long ago what was it we hoped to see from the aftermath of the YHF late Fall 2013 and I said the cell phone records from certain folks on and off the fire 6-30-13—and this person would lead us to believe that was her search—to help us gain clarity—

    Here is a teaser I was given->

    “It is ON the way!

    12-13-13

    The information I requested pursuant to the freedom of information laws is on the way. SOON I will know more. I’ll keep you posted. Best, ”
    —————————————
    on 12-10-13 I was asked by same person if OSHA guys were good sports? Did we have a good relationship with them? The person kept saying they would keep us posted—

    —————————————-

    No it was not xxfullsailxx but this person did feel that blogger could of comport oneself more respectful when using John’s forum and made sure to make sure that we knew Bill Gabbert monitors his site as John does not but which site has surfaced more additional information in comparison in regards to the YHF?

    I think John’s page has-

    Back than this person was to wash their hands of the entire debacle saying they had no dog in the fight but they were here for the hikers yet I have from day one never seen that as facts but behind the scenes heard this person has been there for certain loved ones and Brendan. By 12-16-13 I learned the results/foia made it by this person but I never saw a cc of what the person received but this person always wanted to see what I received as soon as I got it- felt very one way- this person always felt we needed more evidence before one could accept that 2 men (Steed and Marsh) are the solely culpable for the mistakes that were made that day that took their lives.

    The hardest part in learning about this person was this person wanted anything I sent others especially Holly as the person asked Sonny behind my back for any emails I sent Holly to be forwarded to this person plus always felt like guidance to us “how to be” was being listened and absorbed like “do not compromise your own credibility or give reasons for people to distrust you”—I never paid that no mind–I am WHO I am—can’t change it nor want to—.
    Like, I heard similar to another in person friends with the loved ones tell me my private links because I was so generous and kind to show the link way early because Sonny asked me to do it but I did not want to for the fallen so others could properly assess the YHF–that why was other stuff was on there- well I just dumped my one file from HD and those were on it as I walked away from pc as it uploaded but I don’t have a thing to hide but this person felt some stuff portrays the hikers not good—well, that is life…life isn’t a;ways good- when you put two people together soooo very different.—but at least we always been here 24/7 to offer what we can to help get the fire properly assessed —so those two people began to be shelved as not genuine people to my life just people wanting to get along with all- I reckon—I stopped comprehending what their meanings were in this—on 1-23-14 I wanted guidance to Ball’s interview and the person said I will get back to you and did not–so I faded off there—

    You, all world wide, have to remember as you sit a computer—we were the hikers and eyewitness to that tragedy and instead of just going on with our lives we embarked on a path that others would not dare in a crony small town. Sonny did it for the fallen- I find it hard to “connect” to that area without just crumbling so I focus to the lives lost/locally since and the in town journey of the real people who faced the gates of hell straight on as they had to make fast decisions on what to pack if they even had that time to do such and after hearing each account I began the responses were overwhelming and that there was much more to this than a spark ignited on the Weavers because as I heard Ken tell me BLM Bruce quit after the YHF- and hearing his private journey I feel it is Bruce’s duty or Ken’s duty to talk on the details of the BLM on this here fire and what they saw and what I have heard but I do not think it is my place on certain things to share it but their place- Also walk with me in the neighborhood and learn who is crony and who is a person who lost her precious good man husband and had to go to CA to bury him and when returned her entire life burnt- gone—nothing salvageable—I saw her today and I am usually warm and she hugged me as her face with cancer taped up broke my heart because I am in so much pain trying to wobble around—now going on almost three weeks and no movement but I do it all perfect awaiting the surgeries—it was a quick hi and greet and she knows I am going to do all I can to find out why her home burned and not much notice was given when she was a state away burying her husband- then there was this other local who has been here 32 years and had a strong healthy life but when she was told her home burnt she had a heart attack and since has not recovered well and she is having to relocate and sell and she has to give away what is left to begin a new life with her poor health and heart—you begin to hear one after the other direct stories —how many peoples’ health affected—mine too and Sonny—listen to each story and I don’t mean the crony ones or the ones that made it to media but the real stories—it is not right…The town has more fizzled than rebuilt…Water company has been impacted deeply—that they are deeply raising the rates- I can share this- if it was not for the homeowners and their accounts/photos/videos I would not be saying dissect the area between the Shrine to Sesame to Helm’s area or dig deep into the dozer and ground to aerial- and these radio folks; interview the ones that were on the fire even if you have to wait until after they retire but try now- the loved ones had some really good questions but there is much more than those-

    I get tired of on the side emails stating we are “saying or suggesting” and we should correct it when the same person does not expect that of people on the fire like Donut. If you expect me to do it than publicly expect them too- just saying—don’t isolate me in this—

    Well, tomorrow is the big race—http://yarnellmemorialrun.com/
    so it is still hot out but we still have that “Scout” vehicle with INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA all over it and we want to position it some way in the air so its a focal point to their run—maybe get some new readers—or haters. I really do not see how you can hate the forum where it gives you the opportunity to share the YHF with no restrictions so you are not getting unedited or redacted information- and you may come up to some tough questions if you share and you can engage or not—I am very pleased I have a chance to voice my pain, information, etc because I do not do any social media—

    Reply

  15. This is an essay titled “Honor the Fallen” [HTF] by [Army Airborne Ranger] Mark Smith of Mission Center Solutions that is making the rounds in the WFF world. I failed to find a link, so this is the next best thing.

    Mission Center Solutions (MCS) contracts with the wildland fire community to primarily teach leadership. https://mcsolutions.com/

    I disagree with his and others’ stance(s) on the Fire Orders and Watch Out Situations and always will. They work every time, all you have to do is know them and use them.

    One of the statements in the essay is: “Senior leaders have begun to address this by calling the 10 & 18 guidelines and not policy, but these steps have been tentative and only partially implemented.”

    As long as WFF hold this “guidelines” attitude about the Fire Orders, there will continue to be fatalities. ONLY the 18 Watch Out Situations are guidelines.

    I think this “guidelines” attitude was one of the many reasons adopted by the GMHS with their pattern of Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and one of the many causal factors on 30 June 2013.

    Here is one we can all agree with because that is what we have been seeking here since the beginning: “The truth is a worthy anchor point to begin to honor both the living and the fallen.”

    “Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
    Page | 1

    Honor the Fallen Essay Introduction

    I’m the author of this essay, but it reflects two years of dialogue within a group called Honor the Fallen. Coalescing in the wake of the 2013 Yarnell Hill fire and loss of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, HTF is a collection of roughly 30 “seekers” within the wildland fire community. Hose‐draggers, fire directors, dirt diggers, academics, “Ollies”, agency administrators, ICs, FMOs… a diverse cross section is an understatement. This essay benefits from their critical eyes and input.

    What the group seeks is best explained by one of its founders:

    “One of the few acts of free will that tragedy leaves within our control is the chance to grow. Our brothers have given us such a precious and hard won opportunity to learn new knowledge and apply lessons. We realize and seek to highlight that cultural and other human factors risks are just as profound and potentially deadly as physical risks on any incident.

    The results WILL be repeated unchecked unless we commit to looking inside, to looking deeper at how we think, how we talk and how we perceive ourselves.
    Our end state is that the group’s efforts became a catalyst for continued cultural introspection into how human factors affect our decisions. The engagement generates a watershed event from the fire, having provoked thought, dialogue, questions and explorations in all corners of the wildland fire community. Yarnell Hill leads to a stronger, more self‐aware and more resilient wildland fire culture.

    Our effort was perceived as having rendered due honor and respect to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”

    HTF is ready for this essay to be shared. But as another one of our members put it so well:

    “…I can’t help but feel that there is a conversation that needs to precede it. A conversation about our mission as suppression resources. Are we now in the business of intentionally risking lives to achieve wildland fire objectives? I ask because at least the [Agency] has never accepted that position before and maintains its stance on zero tolerance to this day. I understand that firefighters are going to die but there is a big difference between vehicle accidents and entrapments.”

    This essay takes the position that, by default, and for many reasons, risking lives to achieve wildland fire objectives is exactly what is happening. The debate on whether that is what should be happening is stifled by the denial that it’s happening right now.
    If the calculus is going to change, then wildland agencies are going to have to decide how to reconcile the expectations of taxpayers and their elected representatives with agency culture on acceptable risk.

    Right now this disconnect between reality and action is analogous to Social Security. Everyone knows it is unsustainable, everyone knows what is going to happen if nothing is done. Everyone knows it’s going to be really bad. Yet we demonstrate a complete lack of collective will to tackle the elephant in the room. Slight adjustments and tweaks are made that have almost no perceptible impact because they nibble around the edges of symptoms. The causes at the core remain unchallenged.

    Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
    Page | 2

    The Big Lie

    18.6 ‐ Truth and Culture in a High Risk Environment

    I was 18 years old and “chuted up”. Waiting for my first jump with my new unit after completing airborne school. Sitting on the drop zone waiting to board the helicopter, I watched two of my fellow Ranger candidates steer their parachutes into each other and become entangled. At 300 feet both their canopies collapsed and they plummeted to earth. Both suffered permanent serious disability.

    As soon as the ambulance was away, one of the NCOs, our jumpmaster, walked back over. “All right Rangers, next stick. Load up!” As we were getting seated in the helo he said in a calm even voice “The smallest mistake will kill you and your buddies. Now you know why we train the way we do.”

    Some joined for adventure. For college money. For a job. But we were all told from Day One how dangerous our new world was going to be. It had not taken long for the concept to become visceral.

    There were no illusions about the path we had chosen. From that moment on, death and injury were going to be a normal part of my life.

    A state fire chief I greatly respect recently asked, “Why are families so surprised or feel betrayed when their kids die fighting wildfires?”

    I believe the answer to that is because of the Big Lie. The lie that wildland firefighting is safe. Young firefighters and their families are told that they have a “right” to a safe work environment. It is explicit in the Interagency Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations “Every individual has the right to turn down unsafe assignments.” ¹
    The lie is so insidious that it permeates the thinking of many fire managers and agency administrators to the point of denial, despite a steady flow of coffins standing as evidence to the contrary.

    During my service, from the disastrous attempt to rescue hostages in Iran in 1980 to just before 9/11, over 550 members of the U.S. military special operations community were killed during training or operations. ² That’s an average loss rate of about 26 a year out of a population of about 46,000.

    During a recent trip to the wildland firefighter memorial in Boise, I counted the names of those firefighters whose markers stated they died on a fire. I only counted those who died in 2000 or later.

    My count was 182. The actual count ‐ through 2013 ‐ according to the National Interagency Fire Center is 261. ³ Considerably higher than mine.

    From 2000 through 2013, an average of 18.6 ground and aerial wildland firefighters died doing normal business on fires each year. In 12 of 14 years that number was well into double digits. In 2013, it was 34.

    I am always challenged during discussions about risk during classes and presentations to wildland audiences. “We’re different than the military. We do not have acceptable losses.” ⁴

    “It appears you do,” I respond. “It’s almost 19 a year and for the most part the cultural fundamentals of trying to fight fire on the cheap with a seasonal militia based model are unchanged.”

    Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
    Page | 3

    Is it surprising when a highway patrol officer is killed in an accident or shooting? Are we shocked when a structural firefighter is caught in a roof collapse? When a ship is lost at sea in a big storm? My Mom would have been distraught had I been killed, but she wouldn’t have been surprised.

    The truth is that wildland firefighting, like any realm in which people, machines and extreme natural forces collide, is inherently dangerous. One in which a seemingly small error, even being at the wrong time and place, can get people hurt or killed. How long do we try to “vector to zero” before admitting the data is telling us there is no such thing?

    Merriam Webster has a pretty simple definition of safe: “Free from harm or risk.” ⁵ It seems unrealistic one could be working on or above the fire ground and be free from risk. Here’s the interagency standards’ definition of safety: “A measure of the degree of freedom from risk or conditions that can cause death, physical harm, or equipment or property damage.” ⁶

    The big lie turned “Free from risk” into “A measurement of the degree of freedom from risk”. How does that measurement appear on a wildland 215A? Or discussion around “acceptable risk” in a WFDSS document or IAP? The point of origin of the Big Lie. If interagency policy defines safety as a measurement of something that never gets measured… how can that mean anything?

    The essence of risk analysis is that after risks are mitigated, you make decisions based on the acceptability of the residual risk. That too is interagency policy. ⁷ But it is not supported in practice.

    There is no column for that on a wildland 215A, as there is on other versions, such as the Coast Guard’s.

    I’ve not seen a 204 that quantifies residual risk for crews (i.e. this is a medium risk operation). The vast majority of administrators, fire managers and incident leaders I meet simply do not know how to do it.

    If the definition of safety is meaningless, and in contravention of its true nature, so too will be all the policies, rules and checklists that flow from it. The garbage in, garbage out effect.

    Following progress down the left and right flanks of the Big Lie, the confusion magnifies. Platitudes like “the 10 and 18. We don’t bend ’em, we don’t break ’em”, or “firefighter and public safety is your number one objective” – Actually, those are priorities not objectives. And ‐ they are two completely different priorities. Often you have to risk more with one in order to lessen the risk to the other.

    If real risk assessments ‐ using the two axis, probability/severity model ‐ were done in a tactics meeting on a typical wildland fire, here’s what we’d find. That most firefighters are routinely operating in medium or high risk conditions.

    I often ask groups what they feel the risk level is on a typical fire assignment. The overwhelming majority say low, some say medium. This is shocking to me. There is nothing low risk about a 19 year old hotshot driving an ATV loaded with fuel mix down a mountain at dusk after being up and working for 12 hours. I would challenge anyone to do a proper risk assessment and get that below medium. A single engine air attack platform operating over a fire in severe turbulence is medium risk. I have done dozens
    of risk assessments for airborne operations and have never been able to get one of them under a risk level of high. This tells me every jumper is operating in high risk just to commute to work.

    Nearly 19 firefighters a year are dying because they are operating, even after mitigation, in an inherently high risk environment. Not because they are just violating rules in a low risk environment.

    Continued on another post

    Reply

    • Honor the Fallen essay continued

      “Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
      Page | 4

      I don’t believe the Big Lie is the normalization of this reality. The Big Lie is in denial of it. It stands in opposition to the wildland fire leadership values of duty, respect and integrity. ⁸

      What actually gives me great hope is that, slowly, more and more leaders are abandoning the Big Lie in favor of the harsh truth that wildland firefighting is a very dangerous profession. The reality that people are going to get hurt and they are going to die.

      Many leaders have admitted to me in private that they know this. Yet they fear its admission is a license to ignore risks or abandon hard won safety standards. “We can’t admit we have acceptable losses!”

      A colleague, retired Marine Lieutenant Colonel Eric Carlson, puts it best. “Oh no.” he says, “We accept the risk of losses. There are no acceptable losses.” ⁹ That’s the crux. Our loss of 550 special operators was not acceptable. Each loss compelled us to introspection and improvement. Just as that loss of 261 wildland firefighters has driven us to this discussion we’re having now.

      There is acceptable risk. There is no acceptable loss. But there will be losses. So where does that uncomfortable truth leave us?

      Simply, with the sacred duty to keep that loss as low as humanly possible. With the obligation to tell the truth to our firefighters and families about the world they’ve become a part of. Of the risks they will face. With making imperfect decisions using the best art and science possible. With redeeming the values of duty, respect and integrity.

      There are many aspects to that challenge of what needs to be overcome and how, but all start with foundational culture. What aspects of current culture can we attribute to the Big Lie?

      The Big Lie fails to acknowledge that it is impossible to “obey” the 10 standard firefighting orders to the letter on the best day. Do you truly know where your firefighters are at all times? Do you really have communications at all times? Therefore on the worst day, when a bad outcome occurs, you have automatically violated these yes or no “rules” and are therefore guilty. This is a lawyer’s dream.

      Senior leaders have begun to address this by calling the 10 & 18 guidelines and not policy, but these steps have been tentative and only partially implemented.

      The Big Lie has begot a zero defect mentality whose main goal is not making any mistakes. Transparency and learning have become subordinate to covering one’s rear end, resulting in chronic underreporting of near misses and other important lessons for fear of reprisal. We make culture. It is the result of choices, either conscious or unconscious.

      As the developers of the first Fireline Leadership (L‐380), Incident Leadership (L‐381) and now Advanced Leadership for the C&GS (L‐481) programs, my colleagues and I have spent decades looking deeply into the timeless lessons from humans’ experience in chaos in order to figure out what works and why.

      Culture has to start with expectations. Many in wildland fire are asking – “How much risk is acceptable in fire suppression?” Does engagement with fire always mean fighting the fire?

      Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
      Page | 5

      That answer starts with defining the mission and the environment in which it must be conducted. [Government] organizations seek to achieve certain politically articulated goals. ¹⁰ Those define the expectations of the American people, elected officials, senior leadership, and our leaders.

      Taxes are paid with an expectation of protection from human caused and natural disasters. While no reasonable person expects a firefighter to die or suffer serious injury protecting their property, they do expect firefighters to put themselves in harm’s way in an attempt to minimize damage.

      In the current perimeter control paradigm, that means placing teams of people and equipment, all subject to the forces of Murphy’s Law ¹¹ into a chaotic environment fraught with friction, danger and uncertainty. Even the best model of probability and severity cannot diagram the exponential risk curve when multiple hazards and human factors begin compounding. Especially when the environment has the potential to change far more quickly than we can detect and react.

      Because 26 or 18.6, or whatever the number may be, will never be zero, the objective cannot be a number. The objective must be a culture whose leaders have the critical thinking and risk decision tools worthy of people getting a very dangerous job done with limited means to do it.

      An over‐reliance on rules and centralized control is a far less effective approach to guiding human action in chaotic conditions. Its rigid inflexibility only adds to friction and uncertainty. Compliance models work well for managing money, vehicles and equipment. Not well for governing human behavior. “Success as a resilient organization is built on a strong organizational culture and adaptive capacity.” ¹²

      Operational cultures that align to principles versus rules, conduct training and practice to communicate intent and support the use of professional judgment are much more agile and effective. “The secret of their success lies in three characteristics: safety awareness, decentralization, and training” ¹³ These are safer than compliance based cultures because their operators are armed with the information, understanding, training and freedom required to make continuous risk decisions at their level.

      For an organization to reach the difficult, but critical balance of safety, efficiency and effectiveness in a high risk environment requires a culture that places great value on team result, trust, truth, initiative, improvement and decisions aligned to the end state trying to be achieved. Once the desired culture is defined, budgets, programs, strategies and tactics, decisions and behavior can be aligned to it. Researchers can measure progress.

      When the inevitable occurs, liability investigations can be quickly screened for willful violation or gross negligence. Everything else can be defended using professional judgment and the reasonable person principle. Maximum learning can be gleaned from near misses, accidents and other flawed decisions.

      The road to a culture that can walk that kind of talk is extremely difficult to achieve and maintain. There will be ups and downs and setbacks. But until the Big Lie is defeated for good, we’ll never get there.

      The truth is a worthy anchor point to begin to honor both the living and the fallen.

      Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
      Page | 6

      Notes:

      1 NWCG, (2016) Interagency Standards for Fire & Aviation Operations, Chapter 07 Safety and Risk Management, 07‐14 (Pg 144 in online version)

      2 Special Operations Warrior Foundation (SOWF) (2001), statistics of special operations forces killed in line of duty from its founding after Operation Eagle Claw in 1980 to just prior to 9/11/2001

      3 NIFC (2013) Historical Wildland Firefighter Fatality Reports,
      http://www.nifc.gov/safety/safety_HistFatality_report.html

      4 Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (WFLLC) (2015) Two More Chains, Spring 2015 Vol. 5 Issue 1 – has an in depth discussion of this topic

      5 Merriam‐Webster (2014) Merriam‐Webster.com: Dictionary and Thesaurus,
      http://www.merriam‐webster.com/dictionary/safe

      6 NWCG, (2016) Interagency Standards for Fire & Aviation Operations, Chapter 07 Safety and Risk Management, 07‐2 (Pg 132 in online version)

      7 NWCG, (2016) Interagency Standards for Fire & Aviation Operations, Chapter 07 Safety and Risk Management, 07‐2 (Pg 132 in online version)

      8 NWCG (2007) PMS 494‐2 Leading in the Wildland Fire Service, Preface, 3

      9 Carlson (2012) Comments as lead facilitator for L‐580 Leadership is Action, Gettysburg Staff Ride

      10 Boin, Hart, Stern & Sundelius (2010) The Politics of Crisis Management, 20

      11 De Morgan (1866) “Supplement to the Budget of Paradoxes,” The Athenaeum no. 2017, 836 – subsequently Murphy’s Law: If it can happen, it will happen – a corollary to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics: that energy tends to spontaneously move from being concentrated in one place to becoming diffused and spread out.

      12 USFS (2014) Human Performance and Resiliency RD&A – Program Charter, 2

      13 Boin, Hart, Stern & Sundelius (2010) The Politics of Crisis Management, 37″

      Reply

      • RTS,

        Thanks for posting this; it’s a good start. One way that the reality of possible fatalities is the families’ wishes that new FF are instructed to keep their affairs in order before the season starts.

        However, I am troubled as you are by the 10&18 as guidelines bit, and also by the following:

        While no reasonable person expects a firefighter to die or suffer serious injury protecting their property, they do expect firefighters to put themselves in harm’s way in an attempt to minimize damage.

        This suggests the confounding of structural FF mission with WLFF. Unless we change our training, equipment and rules of engagement, this has to stop.

        I’m at a loss to say how to turn the culture around, because I see a number of impediments. First of all is the fact that WLFFs only get paid well when there is danger and overtime, preventing FFs themselves from working for more rational fire management.

        Next is the high percentage of seasonal workers, many of whom hope to parlay their WLFF experience into a permanent position within the FS, NPS or structural FF unit. They are incentivized to stand out and make a name for themselves. Taking on more danger in the WUI may not achieve their aims, but some of them might think it will.

        I don’t want to anger anyone here, but I also see a lack of professionalism in the culture. What some people see as “can do” attitude I see as the antithesis of professionalism. Doctors, lawyers, engineers know the difference between what they know and what they don’t, and those limits are enforced by professional standards and sanctions. I’m sure there are pros who are willing to chance a foray into gray areas, but by and large they stay in their lanes.

        WLFF need to decide what they do and what they don’t, then they need to let everyone know what that is. They need to demand that contractors and other units with whom they work are as qualified as they claim and as they need to be to be safe and effective. They need to demand that their overhead all the way up the line is WLFF trained, not some liaison to a structural chief or a paper-pusher who took a written test and thinks he’s qualified. Professionals demand to be paid what they’re worth, to be treated as experts at what they do. Of course, they need to act professionally and be accountable for their actions, including taking their own safety seriously.

        In turn, we as citizens need to recognize that we need to pay the price, in taxes and building standards and off season maintenance, and we need to be willing to kiss our homes goodbye when wildland fire threatens.

        This is a tall order.

        Reply

        • Second sentence should be:

          One way that the reality of possible fatalities may be impressed on recruits and their loved ones is fulfilling the GM19 families’ wishes that new FF are instructed to keep their affairs in order before the season starts.

          Reply

    • 2014 Most Dangerous Jobs (Bureau of Labor Statistics)

      Rank Occupation #deaths/100K total deaths
      1 Logging workers 110.9 78
      2 Fishers and related fishing workers 80.8 22
      3 Aircraft pilots and flight engineers 64 82
      4 Roofers 47.4 83
      5 Refuse and recyclable material collectors 35.8 27
      6 Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers 26.7 270
      7 Structural iron and steel workers 25.2 15
      8 Driver/sales workers and truck drivers 24.7 880
      9 Electrical power-line installers and repairers 19.2 25
      10 Taxi drivers and chauffeurs 18 68
      11 First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers 17.9 130
      12 Construction laborers 16.9 208
      13 First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers 16.4 33
      14 Maintenance and repairs workers, general 14.4 68
      15 Police and sheriff’s patrol officers 13.5 97
      16 Grounds maintenance workers 13.1 158
      17 First-line supervisors of mechanics, installers, and repairers 12.3 38
      18 Painters, construction and maintenance 10.8 46
      19 Electricians 10.4 79
      20 Telecommunications line installers and repairers 10 19

      Reply

      • Woodsman,

        The important number is deaths per 100,000 workers. Let’s say there are 10000 WLFF at any one time, with an average of 30 deaths per year, that would be 300 deaths/year/100k workers. But it gets worse. Those appear to be annual statistics. If we assume that WLFFs work for six months, the number goes up to an annualized rate of 600. Even if we assume 20 deaths per year, the number is 400. That is higher than any number on that list.

        The other issue is that I don’t employ those other workers, but my tax dollars pay for WLFFs and policies are set by my representatives, so they are of greater interest to me.

        Don’t get me wrong, many of the deaths you cite are avoidable, too, but OSHA has little clout (see one of my posts about a thousand posts ago). Deaths have been cut in half on a per capita basis since it was formed, but they need larger fines, more inspectors, and a different attitude from employers. If all of us are just plantation workers to management, our deaths will continue to be a cost of doing business.

        Reply

        • Average actual Fire burn fatalities is around 4 per year.
          Take say 100 HS crews working on fires for a estimate of 30 fires and 60 hours per fire. Exposure would be 3,600,000 hours per year.

          The average of 4 deaths per year all Fire fighters burned on fires. The average of HS that died by Fire per year since 1955 is roughly .8 ( point 8) and most were in 3 seperiate fires over a 60 year time span.

          It is horrific when people die but until now the statistic has been low compared to other groups.

          Another Statistic– The Safety FIRST committee I worked on in R5 in 1973 established a new safety criteria in 1974 in Fire safety.
          Region 5 went for 12 years without a Fire burn fatality following those rules and cut other Fire related fatalities in half. I have been very proud of that in my carrier.
          FIRE IMPROVEMENT REGIONAL SAFETY TEAM —-FIRST

          What we established was no more than following the rules from the Top supervisor to the bottom employee. Emphasizing Safety and unheard of rating Up as well as down ON FIRES we rated the Sector Bosses Division Bosses and OPS. They rated the IC as did the Crews. Every body paid a lot more attention to safety.

          The reason we got the Safety FIRST thru was the foresight of the Regional Fire Management Officer and support of the Regional Forester. We broke into groups of 2 going to each Forest and District in what was called a sensing group and talked to a group on the forest that were all red carded from Crewman to supervisory and condensed the remarks into a Regional breakdown of the major problems.

          That I believe is what needs to happen again before this fire Fatality problem escalates. I am not sure there is any one out there with the foresight to pull that off. WE can only hope.

          Urban Interface has changed Wild Land Fire Fighting for ever. Fatalities are still not acceptable on wild land fires. no matter the number and no matter the CAUSE.

          The 10 and 18 have been a major factor in the reduction of Fire Burn Fatalities in the past. That is a Fact when evaluating the over all Wild Land Fire Suppression effort.

          FIGHT FIRE AGGRESSIVELY, HAVING PROVIDED FOR SAFETY FIRST.

          Reply

          • Bob,

            All excellent points and (not coincidentally) in support of many of my points above. I do want to emphasize you point that all WLFF deaths are of concern to me. Burns always seem the worst way to die, and large numbers are more noticeable, but if a WLFF dies by being impaled by a falling snag she didn’t notice because she was interacting with a tourist who should never have been there, that is still a problem for me.

            As part of their professional standards, WLFFs should declare “red card zones” the way we have hard hat areas or crimes scenes, authorized personnel only beyond this point. Groupies and fire tourists should be arrested, and linemen, dozer operators, etc. should be qualified during the off season in required training courses so they understand what their lane is, and they need to be supervised by a red card, like Morin was, unless they have a real red card of their own. Evacuations in the WUI should occur way earlier than they do now. WLFFing is hard enough without kids, dogs, and gawkers underfoot.

            I understand that NPS and FS will cringe, because their branding is that all us greenhorns will have a safe, comfortable, Disney experience when we roll in with our 90ft campers, but that is leading visitors who have no respect for wildlands or for the rules to take more risks and put others at risk as well. We don’t want roads everywhere for aesthetic and ecological reasons, but that means that lots of vehicles need to go single file out narrow roads, making it harder for FF to do their work.

            Everything you’ve said above should be absorbed and owned by every new recruit, current WLFF and admin up the line. You should write a book! But don’t expect to be invited by Hold Fast. Their brand of team building looks like more about following orders and group think.

            Reply

            • The real truth is that all other accidents are preventable out side the fire caused accidents.

              Snag areas and rolling rock areas can be avoided by simple safety rules. Vehicle accidents are common in all work environments and we teach and teach on them.
              Hart attacks I do not consider as a accident but a health issue.
              Heat stroke can be prevented.
              Air Craft accidents are a whole nother ball game.
              You have some good points as well.
              The FEDS use to be very savvy on Safety I am at a loss today.

              Reply

        • BTW, I suspect that WLFFs don’t appear on that list because they are lumped in with structural FFs, which is like lumping loggers in with lumber yard workers.

          This conflation of two very different groups occurs in part because structural FFs have the jump on WLFFs in the PR department, and their voices and cultural values seem to dominate on mixed incidents. When GM first formed, they did so as part of and subordinate to a structural unit.

          Branding and marketing (which is what this is, after all) will improve if/when WLFFs develop a more professional culture and differentiate themselves from the structural units. A purely structural FF should be no more willing to wear yellow and green than a purely WLFF would feel qualified to wear turnouts.

          If the Kardashians could do it, just think about what you all could someone!

          Reply

          • Muzzy,

            If the wff were lumped in with the structural folks than that would shoot the number up higher because of so many more personnel and breadth of exposure…and they still don’t make the list.

            Interesting that you said that because I believe the infiltration of structural firefighters into the wildland realm is part of the killing trend.

            Reply

        • Muzzy,

          Respectfully, that’s a lot of assumptions you just made in the math. There are many other occupations that are seasonal in nature as well. A number of occupations on that list may be public employees as well.

          Good discussion. Thanks.

          Woodsman

          Reply

      • Reply to Woodsman post on June 3, 2016 at 9:32 pm

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> 2014 Most Dangerous Jobs (Bureau of Labor Statistics)
        >>
        >> Rank Occupation #deaths/100K total deaths

        Copy that.

        This is why it always kills me ( no pun intended ) when Fireman go on and on about what a dangerous ‘occupation’ they have.

        Like they are the only ones who face danger and/or death at work.

        Some face it EVERY SHIFT… and not just seasonally or when the horn goes off.

        It’s also funny how these ‘lists’ of ‘dangerous occupations’ always leave off the hands-down, number-one ‘dangerous occupation’ in the modern world…

        Operating a motor vehicle.

        Traffic fatalities in just the (same) year 2014…

        32,675 ( 10.25 per 100,000 )

        THIRTY TWO THOUSAND, SIX HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FIVE

        That’s 89 deaths PER DAY.

        Reply

        • Forgot to mention… the 32,765 traffic deaths in 2014 number is ONLY for the United States.

          Be careful driving out there.
          The “Rules of the Road” are not “Hillbilly”.
          There were created for your OWN welfare.

          Reply

        • Hey, WTKTT got it!!! (doesn’t surprise me)

          The report along with those statistics (and we all know that you can many times make statistics show what you want to show) included the point you just made – operating a vehicle on the road…and particularly commercial vehicles is very, very high risk.

          Cue the hero worship replete with bagpipes, it’s a dangerous job! (eyeroll) It doesn’t have to be. Egghead firefighters and incompetent managers make it way, way more dangerous than it is; and it’s a whole hell of a lot less dangerous than many, many occupations out there.

          Let’s get real.

          Woodsman

          Reply

          • Oh and by the way, there are people who can make good decisions under stress and there are people who cannot. Being able to keep your head under extreme stress is important in stressful and dynamic work places. Those who do not possess this skill shouldn’t be involved in wildfire suppression or other similar occupations. I’d say this is doubly true in occupations where you are responsible for the livelihood of others.

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • I had way more exposer and Stress as a Deputy Sheriff than I ever had or felt as a Wild Land Fire Fighter.

              You have no control over a human that wants to go off on you.

              You can control Nature it is not out to kill you. As long as you understand the how and why nature works. Then there are really no surprises.

              Reply

              • And the danger of police/sheriff work is reflected by the number 15 position of the list. Good point Bob, Thanks

                Woodsman

                Reply

            • Well… when you can start your own Wildfire Academy from the living room of your Mobile Trailer… then fill out a job to work on a ‘Fuels Crew’ and then end up just ‘grandfathered in’ to being the actual Superintendent of an actual Type 1 Hotshot Crew…

              …I’d say that’s something that needs to be looked into… PROCESS wise.

              People who really are NOT qualified to be field-team leaders should never be able to sort of just ‘slip in the back door’.

              In any ‘structured organization’… it should be HARD to advance up to higher positions… not EASY.

              And yes… this goes back to the scenario whereby FFs are just signing off on each others’ taskbooks and handing out red-card qualifications like corrupt Boy Scouts passing out merit badges to each other.

              THAT is one sure way to get unqualified people at the ‘higher’ levels.

              And it’s something that can/should be fixed… toot sweet.

              Reply

  16. **
    ** WHY ARIZONA FORESTRY DIDN’T WANT HOLLY NEILL AT THE Q/A DAY

    Here is Joy Herbrode of Arizona Foresty asking family member representative Shannon Clark about ‘rumors’ they have heard that people working on ‘books’ ( like Holly Neill ) were trying to attend the family Q/A session.

    NOTE: The settlement-agreement said that family members were allowed to bring whoever they wanted to the Q/A day as ‘support experts’… but obviously Arizona Forestry was now about to draw a line in the sand with regards to both MEDIA people and anyone working with anyone who is writing a ‘for profit’ book about the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    —————————————————————–
    From: Joy Hernbrode
    Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 3:18 PM
    To: Shannon Clark
    Subject: Re: Hotshots Q&A
    Importance: High

    Shannon, we have heard strong rumors that non-family members (ie researchers working for authors with book deals) will be coming along. Can you confirm one way or the other?

    Joy

    Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
    ——————————————————————

    Shannon Clark eventually gets back to Joy about this… but still apparently has no idea that Joy Hernbrode had, in fact, been referring to Holly Neill and her KNOWN association with author John Maclean.

    ——————————————————————
    From: Clark, Shannon L.
    Date: Tue, Dec 29, 2015 9:48 AM
    To: Joy Hernbrode;
    Cc: McGroder, Patrick J.;
    Subject:2/5

    Are we set for 2/5?

    Outside of clients and lawyers, the only folks I understood might be coming would be: Doug Harwood, Darrell Willis and Holly Neil. It’s important to the family that they be allowed to attend, even if they can’t speak ( if you guys didn’t want them to ).

    We’d also asked Todd Abel and Gary Cordes to attend.
    Gary won’t, but Todd will. Were you going to ask Brendan?

    Or did we decide we didn’t want him there?

    Let me know.
    Shannon
    —————————————————

    The email where Arizona Forestry then specifically DENIED Holly Neill permission to attend the Q/A seems to be ‘missing’ from the ‘Arizona Open Records’ fulfillment, but we DO see the email where Shannon Clark was then pleading with Joy Hernbrode to reconsider their decision about Holly Neill… and informing her that Neill had agreed to sign any/all non-disclosure and/or confidentiality agreements with Arizona Forestry, so long as she might be allowed to attend the Q/A meeting.

    There also does not seem to be an email representing Arizona Forestry’s FINAL decision regarding Holly Neill… so it is still unknown if Holly Neill was ever allowed to actually attend the February 5, 2016 ‘Question and Answer’ day.

    There is also the suggestion in this email that NEITHER side of the table ( The family members OR Arizona Forestry ) wanted Brendan McDonough to be there at that Q/A day.

    Reply

  17. **
    ** VICENTE AND MALONE

    Another ‘glimpse’ into Shannon Clark ( representing GM families ) and Joy Hernbrode ( representing Arizona Forestry ) trying to ‘work out’ who is ( or is NOT ) invited to attend the settlement-mandated Q/A day.

    If Mr. Turbyfill was offended that the attorneys for the families found him to be ‘abrasive’ and ‘not one of our clients’… and for those reasons alone he was denied access to the only opportunity Arizona Forestry was ever going to offer for family members to ask REAL questions about why their loved ones died…

    …then he shouldn’t feel ‘alone’.

    There were OTHERS that the Granite Mountain ‘family members’ and their attorneys did not WANT to be there for the Q/A session.

    NOTE: COPFD is short for “Chief Of Prescott Fire Department”.

    JP Vicente was the Prescott Fire Department ‘Battalion Chief’ who was designated as the head ‘Family Representative’ between Prescott Fire and the families of the fallen. JP Vicente was set to retire ( with his full package ) from Prescott Fire in 2013, but he decided to ‘stay on’ just to serve as the ‘liason’ between PFD and the families of the deceased GM Hotshots.

    Ray Malone was also ‘Prescott Fire Department’… and also a ‘family representative’ following the tragedy.

    ———————————————————————————
    From: Clark, Shannon L.
    Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:05 AM
    To: Joy Hernbrode
    Cc: McGroder, Patrick J.
    Subject: Q&A
    Importance: High

    Hi Joy:

    I’m still fighting with the document. I think the issue may be my email space or something. I’ll get it sorted out with IT when I get to the office and hope to have the remaining questions to you before lunch, if not sooner.

    As far as attendance, we would like you to invite Sciacca for the reasons I left you in my VMM last week.

    Clients are ok with COPFD being there for support, but some have requested that JP Vicente and Ray Malone NOT be there.

    We will try to invite Brendan and advise if he agrees to come.

    You has asked about Thomas French and John Burfing. They are Aviation. Can they be there?

    Also, understanding that Brian Frisby is USFS, and probably can’t come, is it ok if our clients invite him?

    Shannon
    ———————————————————————————–

    So it was the family members themselves ( and their attorneys ) who specifically told Arizona Foresty to make sure JP Vicente and Ray Malone would NOT be present for the Q/A day.

    Makes you wonder what THAT was all about.

    Maybe it had something to do with that FRAP that took place in Prescott over the burial sites at the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery.

    The owner/superintendent of the ‘Prescott Pioneer Cemetery’ ended up having to call the POLICE on Prescott Fire Department Battalion Chief and ‘GM Family Liasion’ JP Vicente.

    JP Vicente kept showing up at the Pioneer Cemetery with workers and equipment to try and actually make the area at the cemetery the way HE wanted it to be… and the way he says the ‘family members’ were telling him they wanted it to be… versus what had already been AGREED TO with the owners of Pioneer Cemetery.

    The Superintendent of the Cemetery kept turning JP Vicente and his ‘work crews’ away for days in a row… but they just kept thumbing their noses at him and just kept coming back to work on the cemetery and make it the way THEY wanted it to be.

    The Superintedent finally got fed up and called the POLICE to come and stop Prescott Battalion Chief JP Vicente and his ‘guys’. He charged them all with ‘trespassing’.

    I’ve mentioned before that these ‘fire guys’ are, in some ways, even worse than dealing both the MAFIA and the MASONS ( and other ‘secret societies’ ) combined, but wait until you hear the full lowdown on this JP Vicente character.

    Not only was he the deignated ‘GM Family Liasion’… he is also the President of the Local Central Arizona firefighter’s UNION.

    Make no mistake. He does what the fuck HE wants… when HE wants… and doesn’t give a fuck WHO gets in his way. .. and he calls in ‘his boys’ whenever he needs to… just like he did when he was trying to make the Pioneer Cemetery area come out the way HE wanted it to… and didn’t give one flying fuck what the OWNERS of the cemetery had AGREED to already.

    So yea… maybe THAT had a teensy-weensy something to do with why the family members were telling Arizona Forestry to make SURE this JP Vicente asshole ( and his little sidekick Malone ) were NOT THERE at the Q/A day.

    Hmmm… ‘Vicente and Malone’.

    Actually SOUNDS like some kind of ‘mob meeting’… with the Italian side of the ‘business’ getting together with the Irish side.

    Nah. Pure coincidence, I’m sure.

    SIDENOTE: It is still highly likely that the as-yet unnamed ‘Prescott Fire Official’ that met with Amanda Marsh on a park bench outside the Prescott Courthouse ( like some kind of ‘secret exchange’ was taking place ) and gave her back Eric Marsh’s ‘missing’ cellphone was most likely either this JP Vicente ‘Family Liason’ guy… or his little sidekick Ray Malone.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      Here is just one ( of many ) articles that appeared after the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery ended up having to call the POLICE to keep this JP Vicente guy ( and his minions ) from showing up at the cemetery to try and make the area come out the way THEY wanted it to.

      It all worked OK in the end… and the PHOTO accompanying the article shows Pioneer Cemetery Superintendent Ted Ihrman and Prescott Battalion Chief JP Vicente ‘shaking hands’… with big smiles pasted on their faces for the camera.

      Preview QUOTE…

      Vicente and Maione freely admitted that after Ihrman rejected their design that the Hotshots’ families had agreed to, they went ahead and tried to build it anyway.

      The Prescott Daily Courier
      Article Title: Hotshots cemetery memorial construction is underway
      Originally Published: June 12, 2014 6:01 a.m – By Joanna Dodder Nellans
      http://www.dcourier.com/news/2014/jun/12/hotshots-cemetery-memorial-construction-is-underw/
      ——————————————————————————–
      PHOTO: By Les Stukenberg of The Daily Courier – Ted Ihrman and JP Vicente ‘shaking hands’ after their disagreement over the Memorial Site at teh Pioneers Cemetery in Prescott.

      PHOTO CAPTION…
      Ted Ihrman, superintendent of the Arizona Pioneers Home and Cemetery, and JP Vicente, the Granite Mountain 19 family services coordinator, shake hands Wednesday on an agreement over the layout and design of the memorial site.

      PRESCOTT, Arizona – It wasn’t exactly a smooth process, but the design for the Granite Mountain Hotshots Burial Site has been finalized and construction is underway.

      Ten of the 19 fallen Hotshots are buried next to each other at the state-owned Pioneers Home Cemetery in Prescott, and all 19 will have plots with bronze grave markers that are etched with images from family photos.

      The site is covered with brick pavers and artificial turf, all surrounded by a two-foot-high staircased wall where people can sit while paying their respects.

      The flags of the U.S., Arizona and the Granite Mountain Hotshots fly over the site. A granite bench and granite monument are planned for the future.

      There is room for approximately 20 family members to be buried alongside their sons and husbands.

      “It’s full of honor,” retired firefighter Danny Parker remarked while surveying the site Wednesday. He and his wife plan to be buried there next to their son Wade.

      “It’s respectable and dignified,” long-time local funeral home director Butch Hampton added.

      The cemetery was originally set aside for long-time elderly Arizona residents who lived at the Arizona Pioneers Home, but several years ago the state opened it up for others.

      It’s an appropriate final resting place for the Granite Mountain Hotshots, since they perished June 30, 2013, fighting a wildfire that ignited on state trust lands and were called to help a state firefighting team.

      The state agreed to open up a new section of the cemetery so the hotshots could be buried together. They charged only $100 per gravesite for the Fallen 19 instead of the usual $900.

      Pioneers Home Superintendent Ted Ihrman and Administrative Services Officer Dale Sams complimented the design Wednesday.

      “It’s a beautiful job,” Ihrman said.

      The two Pioneers Home officials agreed to the design Wednesday, but not before they became involved in a sometimes heated dispute with representatives of two firefighter and Hotshot family support groups, the 100 Club of Arizona and Professional Firefighters of Arizona.

      The two sides also disagreed about whether the Pioneers Home was going to reserve some adjacent gravesites for more family members and fellow firefighters.

      It got to the point Tuesday that Ihrman called in Prescott police and asked them to charge some of the firefighters and workers with trespassing at the cemetery. He had asked the workers to stop on Friday and Monday because they were not building according to an agreed design, and they came back again Tuesday, Sams said.

      After police said it was a civil matter, both sides agreed to meet Wednesday at the cemetery and talk Prescott Fire Capt. JP Vicente, who also represents the 100 Club and serves as the Granite Mountain Hotshots family member services coordinator, and Ray Maione, VP of member services for the

      Professional Firefighters of Arizona, headed up the effort to design and build what they are calling the Granite Mountain Hotshots Burial Site.

      “We had a disagreement, and at the end we agreed to do the right thing,” Vicente said.

      Vicente and Maione freely admitted that after Ihrman rejected their design that the Hotshots’ families had agreed to, they went ahead and tried to build it anyway.

      Ihrman and Sams wanted the boundary wall to be only about six inches high, and they didn’t want pavers on the ground where people would be buried in the future. Otherwise, they wanted family members to be buried outside of the wall.

      Sams said they were trying to think ahead to the future, when gravediggers would have to remove the walls and pavers for new burials. They feared the Hotshot families would end up having to cover the extra costs and the memorial wouldn’t look the same.

      “We have to think this out,” Sams said.

      Maione said some of the widows cried when he told them they’d have to be buried outside the wall, so they just couldn’t build it that way.

      Vicente and Maione assured them that the 100 Club would cover the extra burial costs with donations it received for the Hotshots’ families, just like it has covered the costs of purchasing approximately 25 extra gravesites so there would be room for the memorial.

      In the end, both sides agreed to just move the two-foot-high wall one foot because it was encroaching on other gravesites, so there will be room for relatives inside the wall.

      With the exception of the monument, the memorial will be finished in time for the one-year anniversary of the Hotshots’ death June 30.

      From the gravesites Wednesday, Parker pointed to the home where he grew up and where his parents still live.

      The firefighters of the future will take care of the site, too, he said.

      “They don’t understand,” Parker said of the Pioneers Home officials. “The fire service will not forget.”
      ——————————————————————————–

      Reply

    • Followup on the “Vicente and Malone” frap…

      Not all of the family members had ‘problems’ with these guys.

      The 100 Club of Arizona gave Vicente his own “hero award” at some point for the work he did supporting GM family members, and I believe it was the mother of deceased Granite Mountain hotshot Sean Misner that wrote a glowing letter of thanks to Vicente that went with the award…

      But something happened, somewhere, to cause SOME family members to ask the attorneys to tell Arizona Forestry to make SURE that BOTH Vicente and Malone would NOT be there for the settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day.

      Reply

      • JP Vicente had also been involved, PRIOR to the Yarnell tragedy, in a very nasty lawsuit he filed against his own employer, the Prescott Fire Department. It dragged on for 3 or 4 YEARS before resolving with no monetary settlement amounts. Something about him sueing PFD for violating his rights to free speech with regards to trying to file complaints with the City Of Prescott for things coming from other Union Firefighters. Vicente was the President of that Local Firefighters Union.

        But it’s doubtful that whole thing had anything to do with why some family members ended up NOT wanting him ( and Malone ) to be present at the Q/A meeting.

        Reply

        • **
          ** THE JP VICENTE LAWSUIT

          Here is just one article that ‘summarizes’ the 3-year long lawsuit.

          One of the key issues wasn’t just complaints from other Union FFs.

          It was actually about Vicente paying other people CASH MONEY to work his Fire Department shifts so he could spend more time on the other ‘side businesses’ he had going on.

          This JP Vicente guy is a real “piece a work”.

          The Prescott Daily Courier
          Article Title: Vicente v. Prescott suit ends with settlement
          Published: September 25, 2014
          http://www.dcourier.com/news/2014/sep/25/vicente-v-prescott-suit-ends-with-settlement/

          From that article…
          ———————————————————————–
          PRESCOTT –  A lawsuit that has spanned nearly three years and has cost the City of Prescott about $190,000 in legal fees has ended, with no monetary award to either side.

          In unanimous action Tuesday, the Prescott City Council approved an out-of-court settlement, which concludes the lawsuit without any money changing hands between the two parties. Likewise, both parties are responsible to pay their own legal fees, and agree to give up their right of appeal.

          The lawsuit dates back to December 2011, when John Paul (J.P.) Vicente, a Prescott Fire Captain and acting battalion chief, made eight employment-related allegations against the city. The suit claimed that the city attempted to force Vicente into early retirement after he had complained about harassment to two union members and then advocated for a female firefighter over claims of sexual harassment by a supervisor.

          The city maintained that Vicente frequently traded shifts with other firefighters in order to accommodate the demands of his other businesses.

          “In some cases Vicente would pay other firefighters in cash for working his shifts rather than working one of their shifts in exchange,” stated the background in an August order by a U.S. District Court Judge.

          City officials reportedly instructed Vicente to stop the practice, but when he did not, Vicente said city officials tried in January 2011 to get him to sign a disciplinary agreement that would have resulted in his resignation by June 2011. The agreement also included an option for early retirement.

          Although he did not sign the disciplinary agreement, Vicente did enter the DROP (Deferred Retirement Option Plan, a 60-month program during which there are no employer contributions to retirement and no further years of service are credited) in January 2011, according to the order.
          ———————————————————————–

          Reply

  18. OK I’m sitting here somewhat falling asleep while read through today’s comments, and I come across this:
    —————————————————————
    Woodsman says JUNE 2, 2016 AT 6:59 PM

    RTS,

    I’m with you on the NIMO watchout 100%. I’ve seen it many times with my own eyes,

    Woodsman
    ———————————————–

    So, know-nothing civilian keyboard warrior/digital photographer Albuquerquean that I am, I would like to know more about this.

    I’ve gone through some major eye-opening conversions through the conversations of the past two or so years here.

    1). The critical analyses of the “fusion fire-fighters.” Especially given the rah-rah-rah that happens right here in River City regarding everybody training together to fight wildfires in the Wildland-Urban-Interface and how groovy that is!!

    And then doing my research and realizing wildland fire-fighters are getting themselves trapped and burned over and killed in the “WUI” while structural fire-fighters aren’t.

    2). The Incident Command System. The other big rah-rah-rah that everybody thinks is the best invention since paper clips and peanut butter; while I’m learning here that that’s just sucking structural fire-fighters (battalion chiefs) and others who don’t really know how to fight wildfires up into the ranks of the mighty higher-ups who are, in many ways, mis-managing how wildfires are being mis-managed.

    (I should add to this that I’ve been reading lately complaints — I have links but I don’t know where they are right now — that Federal wildland fire-fighters actually can’t move up in the ranks of Federal agencies these days and that’s a part of the reason why there’s a lack of people like them who actually know how to do this stuff among the muckie mucks and Incident Command Teams).

    3). And now this thing about NIMOs. I really don’t know anything about NIMO’s. I haven’t researched them. But what I do know is that placing a Type 2 Short Team in charge of the Yarnell Hill Fire was, imho, a YUGE part of what went wrong on June 30, 2013. Is there a connection?

    I’d really like to know more about this.

    Thanks, in advance.

    Reply

  20. Looks like Holly is pushing her Horseshoe 2 fire over on Safety Matters Face Book page.
    Of course she is one of the board members.

    Reply

    • Bob,

      I visited her site and read the articles & comments. I can’t stomach reading any more of the self-serving bullshit there. Yeah, Horseshoe 2 went off without a hitch! Good plan! Great wx conditions! Commendation letter for doing that?? Sure. The worst part is the insinuation that the turndown MAY have delayed the plan leading to the entrapment – SURE it did.

      Of all the incidents to promote as an example? Who needs enemies when you have friends like that? If I was an advocate for GM, I would have left that one alone.

      There were some good comments there though. At least there some wff with working brains left in the world. I don’t do FB or I would make a reality check comment over there…doubt it would do any good though.

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • And somewhere down below… in this Holly Neill person’s latest “drive-by-shooting” here on this PUBLIC forum… she fired this ‘Respectful’ round of ammunition from the window of her car…

        Duty-Respect-Integrity. You ought to look up the meaning. Oh that’s right, you’ve never been a firefighter, you can’t be expected to understand or apply the meaning.

        So just 48 hours after Memorial Day… I learn that ONLY ‘Firefighters’ can ever possibly know the meaning of ‘Duty’ and/or ‘Respect’ and/or ‘Integrity’… or ever be able to ‘apply’ it, in any way.

        I didn’t know that. Thanks, Holly. Fascinating to learn.

        I don’t even think the MAFIA or the MASONS make those kind of ‘exclusive’ claims.

        And this coming from someone who decided, herself, NOT to use her real name in her initial communications with lead ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg… and would only sign those initial emails with…

        “A FAN of GMIHCS”

        It was only when Krotenberg opened the door for her a little and she felt she might actually have a chance to get what SHE wanted from them that she decided to start using her real name on her emails.

        I guess she has no idea that here we are now looking at over 2,400 emails from her fellow ‘Firefighter’ compadrenitos ( with all that Duty and Respect and Integrity dripping off them ) who were/are doing everything they could/can to lie, cheat, obfuscate, and avoid ‘respecting’ existing information laws just to get out doing one simple, dutiful and respectful thing.

        Just TELL THE TRUTH.

        The whole thing reminds me of years ago when I went into West Point with a team of my people on a contract to upgrade their computers.

        As we walked into the building… you couldn’t help noticing what was written IN STONE above the archway of the building we were entering…

        “A Cadet shall NOT lie, cheat or steal… or TOLERATE ANYONE WHO DOES”.

        We were there to upgrade the hardware and the monitors all over the West Point Academy… but swap the existing hard-drives out of the old equipment and into the new… and make sure all the existing device-drivers understood the new hardware.

        At some point.. about halfway through the job… I had a ‘progress status’ meeting with a bunch of guys wearing uniforms.

        After telling them it was all going well and we would be finished AHEAD of schedule… I felt the need to mention one more thing to them.

        I said… “By the way… are you AWARE that every fucking computer is using a pirated copy of the Microsoft Windows Operating System? Every copy on every computer has the same serial number. Somebody just kept installing the same copy of Windows that was purchased under a SINGLE-USER License onto every fucking computer?”

        They ( all the guys sitting across the table in the uniforms ) just laughed.

        One of them ( A Captain ) said…

        “Of course we’re aware of that. What about it?”
        You think we’re actually gonna BUY copies of Window for all these damn personal computers? Give me a fucking break.”

        True story.

        Reply

        • PS: Yes… I DID report what we had found going on at West Point to BOTH Microsoft and the GAO ( General Accounting Office ).

          Nothing ever happened.

          We were offered a contract 2 years later to do a similar thing at the West Point Academy… and REFUSED it.

          That’s because I remember what their fucking BUILDING said…

          “A Cadet shall NOT lie, cheat or steal… or TOLERATE ANYONE WHO DOES”.

          Reply

            • Reply to Woodsman post on June 3, 2016 at 9:48 pm

              >> Woodsman said…
              >>
              >> They’re not rules but merely guidelines…

              We all know now ( thanks to Brendan ) that there are such things as ‘Hillbilly Rules’…

              Does that mean there are “Hillbilly Guidelines, too?”.

              LMFAO.

              By the way… the whole point of the story above was that regardless of what you read carved in STONE on buildings… or what people try to tell you some ‘profession’ automatically includes…

              …the people who flaunt the “Integrity” card actually do, VERY often, turn out to be the ones who have NONE AT ALL.

              Buyer beware.

              Reply

          • WTKTT,

            Thanks for sharing, It shows that you at least tried to do the right thing and that you have integrity.

            Reply

            • I actually couldn’t believe they asked for us BACK when it was time to upgrade their stupid PCs again. I never TOLD them I had reported them ( the entire fucking West Point Military Academy ) to Microsoft ( and the GAO )… so I guess the morons just never knew.

              The whole point of this is to remember what Joy has reminded us of.

              Holly Neill ( FAN of GMIHC )… are you still reading along?
              I’ll bet you ARE.

              Whenever you point a finger at someone… notice the THREE other fingers pointin’ “right back atcha”.

              I’m sorry you didn’t get your way with the PUBLIC agency known as ADOSH and get them to REWRITE or AMEND their official accident investigation report to turn the whole thing into a “more positive legacy for the GMIHC”… but it was fascinating watching you try.

              Reply

            • Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
              on June 3, 2016 at 9:54 pm

              >> RTS said…
              >>
              >> WTKTT,
              >>
              >> Thanks for sharing, It shows that you at least tried
              >> to do the right thing and that you have integrity.

              As I told Woodsman above… the whole point of the story above was that regardless of what you read carved in STONE on buildings… or what people try to tell you some ‘profession’ automatically includes…

              …the people who FLAUNT the “Integrity” card actually do, VERY often, turn out to be the ones who have NONE AT ALL.

              Buyer beware.

              Reply

  21. So I spent an hour and a half writing a comment that got stuck in moderation, and when I tried to copy and save it it froze my Safari up completely. So I will drink some coffee and try to rewrite it. Or some semblance of it. This is probably not going to be as good as my original comment.

    I believe that when we look at this whole “air support” thing, we need to keep in mind that, at that time, there was a Hail Mary Plan being conjured up and then implemented to put in a dozer line between the top of Glen Ilah, through a wash, to the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch. It included Gary Cordes ordering his Task Force Leader Trainee to send a couple of engines into Boulder Springs Ranch to bring the GMHS out from there “safely.” I also believe Paul Musser was in on that plan (but I have no evidence, other than circumstantial, to prove that).

    I think that when Eric heard that “air support ASAP” thing, he was thinking both of that plan, and the situation, in general. I don’t assume Abel was in on the Hail Mary Plan.

    Bravo 33, at that time, I think, was very much in communication with Todd Abel. Abel was directing the ground ops in the area where Bravo 33 was operating during that whole 40-minute period (that included the complicated split-VLAT drop), between when Abel assured Marsh he would send in air support ASAP –> AA Rory Collins –> Tom French, and when they actually moved in that direction.

    This is why I’m not willing to hang the “blame” on Bravo 33 for that 40-minute delay. And I’m not willing to say that Bravo 33 was “out of touch” with the Ground Operations. I think they were in touch with Ground Operations on the north side, while practically nobody had much of a clue what was going on on the south/Yarnell side. (Even though Cordes, Musser, and Sciacca were watching the fire from 89 at 4:05 PM).

    I think that, until we have access to the Air-2-Ground recording that I am 99.999999% sure exists somewhere, it is not possible to know, much less evaluate, what “caused” that 40-minute delay. But I don’t believe Bravo 33 is responsible for it.

    I agree with Bob Powers’ interpretation that a whole lot of the problem was caused by having an “Air Support Module” being put in the kind of situation they are not designed to be put in, especially on this kind of escalating fire. And the reason they were put in that kind of situation was that Rory Collins was, all day, calling out for a relief pilot that he was never supplied with.

    This is not as good as my comment that got lost in moderation. But it is the gyst of it.

    Oh, and PS, to Bob Powers, I disagree with what you are saying happened to the dozer, and I think you are imagining things about it, but that’s a different story. WTKTT is also imagining things related to it, but at least he says he’s imagineering. And, at this point, I’m kinda sorta in agreement with what he’s imagineering. I’m at least agreeing with WTKTT that Morin still had a radio (either the original one supplied to him by Trew or another supplied to him by Ball, all things considered), when this was happening.

    I seriously disagree with what you are imagineering. Because:

    The dozer disappeared for awhile as the fire was sweeping through Glen Ilah (probably taking a different road out than Cory Ball did), chaos ensued, and the dozer was then back in the area around 7:30-ish getting entangled in a power line (under somebody else’s supervision) and then the dozer operators were swapped and the dozer, after about midnight, put in the line opening up the way into the deployment site.

    And I agree with Joy. I wish we could disagree respectfully. Ad hominems and personal attacks don’t serve to move this important discussion forward, imho. I get frustrated, too, but I try to keep my heated reactions as much to myself as possible. I’m tired of the toxicity.

    Namaste, everybody.

    Reply

    • OK I managed to miraculously just find my original comment that got lost in moderation, and I’m going to repost it, because it’s a little more detailed and nuanced.

      Marti Reed` says JUNE 2, 2016 AT 4:41 PM

      Some thoughts regarding the topic of “Air Support.”

      I think the conversation regarding “sending Air Support ASAP” has to include the fact that there was a Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line between the north end of Glen Ilah and the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch being hatched. And that Granite Mountain was a part of that plan — witness Cordes instructing Esquibal to send an engine or two there to get them out safely.

      Given all that was going on at that time, I’m not assuming Abel was in on that plan. But I think Musser was.

      I do think that when Abel (probably, via the communiques WTKTT has documented) subsequently advised AA Rory Collins, who then advised Bravo 33 Lead Plane Pilot Tom French French to shift the focus to the Yarnell/SW part of the fire, he was thinking in general terms, not specific ones.

      Here’s where I get stuck.

      think Brave 33 was very much in communication with Todd Abel. Abel was the OPS on the ground in the area where Bravo 33 was “leading” all those aerial resources (including the VLAT) during all of that 40-minute period (including that two-prong VLAT drop), between when Abel told Marsh he would “send air support ASAP” and when Bravo 33 finally started to shift to Yarnell .

      I don’t think Bravo 33 was “out of touch” with the “resources on the ground.” I think they were very much in touch with Todd Abel. They may have been “out of touch” with what was happening on the south/Yarnell side of the fire, but not in the area where they were working at the time.

      I agree with Bob Powers’ description downstream of the problem with what happens when Aerial Support Modules are inserted into wildfires that are too big and complex for what they are designed for. And I think that’s part of what’s going on here.

      My cognitive dissonance here is around Todd Abel telling Marsh he will send “aerial support ASAP” and then, apparently telling AA Rory Collins to do that, and Rory Collins apparently telling Tom French to do that, and then, apparently, Todd Abel continuing to keep using Bravo 33 to continue doing what they were doing on the north side of the fire.

      Without the Air-2-Ground recording, which I 99.9999999% believe exists somewhere, I don’t believe it’s possible to develop a fair assessment of what was going on during this time, and I’m not willing to throw French and/or Burfiend under the bus for it. I don’t think they were that “out of touch” with what was going on on the ground in the area where they were working. I think a whole lot of people were out of touch in the area where the fire was, after it turned, heading.

      I think it’s possible that Eric interpreted what Abel said in both a general and maybe more specific way. I think Eric had, inside his head, the Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in that dozer line (somewhat more specific) but even more so, just a general assumption that more aerial resources were going to be moving into the Yarnell/Glen Ilah area. I do think that influenced him.

      I don’t think any of this specifically had to do with anything regarding the deployment (except maybe in desperation, maybe).

      This is why I am not willing to dump a whole lot of blame on Bravo 33 for that 40-minute delay. Without the Air-2-Ground recording, I believe it’s not possible to really know what was going on regarding that.

      And maybe that’s why we don’t have that Air-2-Ground recording???? Who knows??????

      Reply

    • I first was only saying that was my educated guess based on what we have and what I know happens on Fire. If you want to class it as Imagineering it is just another scenario besides WTKTT as I have said its My position I do not agree with WTKTT position. Neither of us has any proof to support our point.

      The wire entanglement of the Power line was another Dozer not Morin’s Dozer.
      I believe that was a private contract Dozer I saw the name but did not wright it down.
      It is in the Equipment Resource orders. Other wise we would not be talking about what happened to him.

      As WTKTT has said The Dozer and Morin disappeared after Ball left him. What he did and where he went are open. How ever The Dozer must have returned to a County Yard it could be my guess of Congress or he could have gone to The main Yard. He did not die he did not burn up so I say he went home and parked it.

      Thanks for your positive input. I believe he left the Parking area rather than sit through a burn over he had the time.

      Reply

      • “The wire entanglement of the Power line was another Dozer not Morin’s Dozer.
        I believe that was a private contract Dozer I saw the name but did not wright it down.”

        With all due respect, I don’t believe that is accurate. The dozer with Morin was on contract during that time (as evidenced by the documents Joy provided us with). I have never seen any evidence of a “private contract Dozer” there at that time.

        And it was exactly that exact same dozer, under a different operator (as evidenced by the documentation Joy provided us with) that put in the line to the deployment site.

        Reply

        • >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> I have never seen any evidence of a “private contract Dozer”
          >> there at that time.

          The ‘May Machinery’ dozer that was ordered up for Yarnell is seen passing by the Eric Panebaker camera setup, and heading WEST on Hays Ranch Road toward the ICP, at exactly 4:36.10… just 3 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was about to hit the Air-To-Ground radio channel.

          It happens at +5 minutes and 22 seconds into Panebaker Air Study video 20130630_1643_EP.

          This dozer does NOT match the one seen in photographs of the Yavapai County dozer that was working the south end of the fire that day ( and ended up ‘missing’ following the deployment ).

          Reply

            • And that was the same dozer that was seen and photographed staged at the Mountain-Air parking lot before that Air Study photo was taken.

              Reply

              • May Machinery was in fact the Contract dozer that was on a Equipment order on the 30th.

                A private contractor that was under Contract to Arizona State Fire.

                The County Dozer was put on contract with out a Red Carded Operator. For that morning do to the need.
                Use of County Equipment on a State Fire is not uncommon it was within its County’s Jurisdiction.

                They each have a serial # or Registration Number so that would say if the Dozers are the same or different.

                Morin Dozer the County one was Order # E-16 A D6R
                I will have to go back to the Orders to get the rest of the Info.
                I do believe we are working with 3 different Dozers and Operators.

                For a change I am with WTKTT that Morin’s County Dozer came up missing and did not show up latter.

                Reply

                • OK What I found.

                  E-16 Cat D6R #Do3562 Yr.2003 County Dozer.

                  E-39 Cat D5 HWL Yr. 1996 AZAIS May Machinery

                  Found no other dozers ordered.
                  So maybe two.
                  There was some information on the one they used to build the Road to the deployment site by the person that
                  took it in cant remember who directed that.

                  I d not think it was either of the two above but no other info in the Resource orders.

                  Reply

                  • Bob… if you really are suddenly ‘starting from scratch’ and trying to figure out even how many dozers were in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30… 2013.

                    I recommend looking at the SAIT Investigations Notes.

                    Just search the document for the word ‘dozer’.

                    You will find TONS of references in there… not the least of which are…

                    1. The original statement from the DPS Officers in DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 that they were TOLD ( by someone… they never said WHO ) to search for 20-22 ‘missing’ persons following the deployment incident.. including a DOZER and its OPERATOR.

                    2. The exact times ( according to Cordes ) when the Yavapai County dozer was ORDERED ( 2:30 AM ), and when it arrived ( 8:00 – 9:00 AM ).

                    3. Exactly when Roy Hall says he first ordered a ‘dozer’ to start pushing a road out to the bodies ( 7:16 PM ). Sundown in Yarnell that day wasn’t until 7:47 PM.

                    Etc… etc….

                    Reply

                    • Thank you Mr. WTKTT
                      How ever I have another life to live and am not searching all the records which you are better at.

                      I know #1. I know #2. Thank you for #3.
                      Sun Down here in Idaho on June 30 is 2100.

                      So what Dozer got tangled in the Wire.

                      Morin signed off time at 2100 and Rezzonico started his Shift at midnight. a 3 hour break in operation. Just wondering where our lost Dozer was from 1700 to 2100. with Operator Morin?????

                    • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      June 3, 2016 at 7:34 am

                      >> Bob Powers asked…
                      >>
                      >> So what Dozer got tangled in the Wire.

                      As I already said below… there is no definite proof regarding which dozer that was… but after many ( prior ) discussions about this, however, I believe the ‘consensus’ is still that…

                      1. The County Dozer that was working the SOUTH side of the fire all day on Sunday, June 30, 2013, remained on the SOUTH side throughout the evening and on into the next day ( July 1 )… and it WAS this same dozer that was used to push the road out to the deployment site.

                      2. Ditto for the ‘May Machinery’ dozer that was seen arriving on the NORTH side of the fire. It is believed it simply stayed on the NORTH side throughout the evening, since they were still also pushing dozer lines up there on the NORTH side where fire was also still active.

                      >> Bob Powers also aksed…
                      >>
                      >> Morin signed off time at 2100 and
                      >> Rezzonico started his Shift at
                      >> midnight. a 3 hour break in operation.
                      >> Just wondering where our lost Dozer
                      >> was from 1700 to 2100. with Operator
                      >> Morin????

                      That remains a good question… and there is no clear answer in the ( current ) evidence record.

                      Did Rezzonico just ‘arrive’ in Yarnell with a County pickup, swap out with Morin, and then Rezzonico tokk the dozer and Morin drove that County pickup back to wherever his own car started out that morning… or did Morin actually take the entire dozer and loboy back to where he started that morning, and then Rezzonico drove the whole kit-and-kaboodle BACK to Yarnell again?

                      We still don’t know ( yet ).

                      The former option seems more likely.

              • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 2, 2016 at 8:23 pm

                >> Marti Reed said…
                >>
                >> And that was the same dozer that was seen
                >> and photographed staged at the Mountain-Air
                >> parking lot before that Air Study photo was taken.

                Yes. It was seen ‘wedged’ in there on the SOUTH side of that Mini-Mart parking lot in at least 2 different photos taken by 2 different people in roughly the same timeframe.

                I remember when those photos were found…. it was like… “Oh boy!… we finally found that frickin’ dozer that Paul Morin was driving! He left the south of the fire and just pulled into that Mini-Mart to get a coke and some twinkies! Hooray!”

                But closer inspection of those photographs appears to have proven that was NOT the case.

                That dozer that is ‘pulled into’ that Mini-Mart just south of where Hays Ranch Road intersects with Highway 89 does, in fact, seem to be the same ‘May Machinery’ dozer we would then see crossing the Panebaker Camera setup some minutes later and obviously headed for the ICP at the Model Creek Elementary School.

                There might be some SMALL fraction of a possibility left that the dozer seen parked there at the Mini-Mart *COULD* actually be Paul Morin and his County dozer… because it really is quite far from the camera in both photographs… but it remains MOST LIKELY that was just the ‘May Machinery’ dozer, instead.

                Maybe we should ‘revist’ those Mini-Mart photos. Dunno.

                Reply

                • Nah. We went over those two dozers with several fine-toothed combs and determined they weren’t the same.

                  Frankly, I never thought they were the same.

                  Reply

                • Actually, what I REALLY thought was, “Dayum, how did they actually park that thing there that way?????”

                  Reply

                  • Ha!… yes… I remember thinking the same exact thing when I first saw those photos.

                    Did he BACK IN off Highway 89… or WHAT?

                    Reply

                    • LOL!!!

                      A YUUUGE truck and trailer came *this close* to shaving my front rear-view mirror off the other day. I just sat, powerlessly, on my horn, PO’d totally.

                      I’m amazed how they maneuver those things.

                      I’m pretty sure they backed it in.

      • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 2, 2016 at 6:28 pm

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        >> The wire entanglement of the Power line was another Dozer not Morin’s Dozer.

        That has never been proven one way or the other.

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >>
        >> I believe that was a private contract Dozer
        >> I saw the name but did not wright it down.

        May Machinery, Bob.

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >>
        >> The Dozer must have returned to a County Yard it could be my
        >> guess of Congress or he could have gone to The main Yard.
        >> He did not die he did not burn up so I say he went home and parked it.

        Nope.

        Already covered down below in this same chapter…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-334901

        ** THE DOZER ORDERS

        Here’s a ‘summary’ of the two ‘shifts’ that were worked on that dozer between 7:00 AM Sunday, June 30, 2013 and 2:00 PM Monday afternoon, July 1, 2013.

        Paul Morin had the first shift on that dozer there on the south end of the Yarnell Hill fire… and fellow Yavapai County Public Works employee Donald Rezzonico took the second shift starting at MIDNIGHT on June 30, 2013. Paul Morin had gone ‘off the clock’ at 9:00 PM that Sunday night, after working a 14 hour shift on the dozer.

        From the original bulldozer SHIFT records obtained by Joy Collura via an Arizona Open Records request…

        The Yavapai County dozer that was working the Yarnell Hill
        fire from 7:00 AM on June 30, 2013 until 2:00 PM on July 1, 2013…

        ——————————————————————————————-
        Dozer: Cat D7R / Serial # 06562 / From: Yavapai County

        Shift 1:
        START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM)
        STOP: 2100 (9 PM)
        Hrs: 14
        Operator: Paul Morin

        Shift 2:
        START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight)
        STOP: 1300 (2 PM)
        Hrs: 13
        Operator: Donald Rezzonico
        ——————————————————————————————–

        Reply

        • Thank you, WTKTT.

          I was thinking of asking you to post that. You read my mind. Or I read yours.

          Reply

          • Ok sounds good switched drivers that solves that part..
            Still Daylight in Arizona at 2100 June 30.
            Would have helped the discussion if we had had that a few days ago.
            So which Dozer got tangled in the power lines?? It was Dark then wasn’t it?

            Rezzonico put in the road to the Deployment site is that right?? He did not start till Mid Night.

            May Mich. could have been the one who got tangled. Only a thought????

            Morin was safe with the Dozer and Low Boy SOME WHERE………………………..

            Reply

          • I really can’t believe we are having to waste all this screen real-estate and go over all this again… just because someone can’t remember what has already been discussed over and over again.

            Reply

            • Actually… I take that back.
              I suppose a ‘lightning round’ on the dozer just to review what is or isn’t actually KNOWN is always useful.

              So ditto for the comment I made down below that this is a ‘ridiculous’ thread of conversation.

              Until we know EXACTLY what happened with that ‘dozer’… and what it’s involvement was ( or was NOT ) in what was actually happening on the afternoon of June 30, 2013… it is NOT any kind of ‘ridiculous thread of conversation’.

              It remains VERY important to ‘flush it out’ and ( some day ) KNOW that the real ( full) TRUTH is about this fucking Yavapai County dozer.

              Reply

              • I guess that will take another FOIA.

                Bob should be the one requesting it, since he’s the one insisting that it wasn’t the dozer with Morin operating it that got caught in the power line in Glen Ilah, before that same dozer put in the dozer line to the deployment spot.

                Reply

                • Now you are back to me insisting.

                  I made a statement not a conclusion. Was it or was it not the May Dozer. or was it Morin???????

                  You both give others a full explanation but I am now outside your nice circle. That’s Ok I am searching to and I am not the sifting with a fine tooth comb or writing down all the records like you.

                  Ill be nice and say thank you. This is a forum and I am entitled to my thoughts.

                  I have no plans to Request any FOIA’s By the way.

                  We are searching for our own satisfaction. The State and FEDS. if you have not realized it are paying no attention to IM or us we are like one drop of water in a huge Lake.
                  They could care less. To them it is over.

                  Reply

                  • Hey Bob,

                    I’m going to cover for an old wff from the old days now.

                    Confession: I get lost in all this shit sometimes like a cat hung up in utility lines. I get turned around & distracted. I’m guilty of a post here making me think of some other point which causes me to post a question & take a thread in a different direction. Sometimes (maybe most of the time) it has already been covered and WTKTT has to go over it for me again. It’s got to be frustrating but man, do I appreciate that.

                    I’m going to disagree with you on whether or not personnel from all the agencies involved monitor IM. I believe they do. I also believe that some of the material presented here helps them “take care of” information they didn’t think to cover-up before. But my personality is predisposed to distrust of people in general until shown otherwise…..so there’s that.

                    I think there is someone here who has figured out more of what happened that day & why than some people who were actually on the fire. Unless I just wanted to put my fingers in my ears about the whole thing as a participant at Yarnell Hill, I would be reading the hell out of this blog to figure out what happened. IM has changed the landscape in PR after a tragedy wildfire and it’s NOT going away. It won’t stop until ALL the information is out there. Even if JD put the lid on this forum, someone else would make one and keep going ahead.

                    Woodsman

                    Reply

                    • Right on

                      But I have come to the conclusion that the Current FS is even worse than the one I worked for.

                      You had to have one of those Fire Gods decide to take the side of the Grunt and pursue change. That happened occasionally.

                      To day I do not think there are any high ups that want to challenge the current system and change will be hard to do with out that support.
                      They do not have the Balls any more or the solid fire backgrounds to challenge Washington.

                      They have made up there minds and moved on accepting the SAIT.

                      Face Book Safety Matters told me I should go talk to the IC about the Horseshoe 2 fire.
                      You might check that out I think it was Holly replying.

    • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 2, 2016 at 5:46 pm

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> I believe that when we look at this whole “air support” thing, we need
      >> to keep in mind that, at that time, there was a Hail Mary Plan being
      >> conjured up and then implemented to put in a dozer line between
      >> the top of Glen Ilah, through a wash, to the road leading into the
      >> Boulder Springs Ranch.

      As much as I believe you are right… and as much as I was the one pointing out how EASY it would have been to ‘connect’ the south end of the Sesame Area to that totally-cleared 20-30 foot wide existing firebreak that was the driveway all the way out to the BSR… I have to ‘check’ you ( us? ) on something.

      The following is all that Gary Cordes (supposedly) actually said to Cory Ball…

      From Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
      —————————————————————————–
      Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility
      of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
      —————————————————————————–

      “southwest of Yarnell” means the WEST end of Glen Ilah… and near the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      “Structure group one” means ( of course ) Gary Cordes.

      We still don’t know who the “one other” is that Cory Ball specifically mentions receiving the same ‘assignment’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

      Could have been Paul Morin ( the dozer operator ).
      Could have been Eric Marsh himself.
      Could have been another Blue Ridge Hotshot.
      Could have been… ( we don’t know… only Cory Ball or Gary Cordes can say ).

      But there is ( and always has been ) just that phrase “possibility of dozer line” sitting there, as well.

      So it still has to be considered that at the time Gary Cordes TOLD Cory Ball to go ‘scout that’… there was no SPECIFIC plan… just a GENERAL plan.

      Cory Ball, of course, never even got the chance to DO this “scouting”.

      But it really does sound like that Gary Cordes himself had no SPECIFIC instructions for Cory Ball. Just a GENERAL instruction to “go see if you can find something”.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> It included Gary Cordes ordering his Task Force Leader Trainee to send
      >> a couple of engines into Boulder Springs Ranch to bring the GMHS out
      >> from there “safely.”

      There is still NO QUESTION that Gary Cordes knew EXACTLY where Granite Mountain was headed that afternoon… and that at the same time everyone was evacuating from the Shrine area Cordes apparently believed that Granite Mountain might have ALREADY MADE IT to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> I also believe Paul Musser was in on that plan (but I have no evidence,
      >> other than circumstantial, to prove that).

      Paul Musser called Marsh at 3:42 PM from the Sickles Ranch Road area.
      NINE minutes later… we see him passing Eric Panebaker’s camera, at exactly 3:51 PM, headed for Yarnell and his ‘roadside meeting’ with Gary Cordes.
      At the speed he was traveling when he passed the camera ( 20-30 mph ), he must have reached Gary Cordes there on the side of Highway 89 in another 3 – 5 minutes.
      His FILMED ( by Jake Guadiana ) meeting with Cordes there on the side of Highway 89 at 4:06 PM ( if you accept the 10 minute time dial-back for all of Guadiana’s photos/videos ).

      If Paul Musser was not fully aware of what Gary Cordes either had planned or had ALREADY ‘set-in-motion’… then you can be sure by the time he exited the passenger side of Gary Cordes’ truck ( circa 4:10 PM )… and headed down to Shrine road… he certainly KNEW it from THAT timeframe forward.

      There has never been a full description/accounting of that ‘meeting’ between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and OPS2 Paul Musser.

      BOTH of them just described it to investigators in the simplest possible terms… with just a vague idea of what was discussed… and no investigator had the skills to query either of them further about what REALLY went on or what was said/planned.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> I think that when Eric heard that “air support ASAP” thing, he was
      >> thinking both of that plan, and the situation, in general. I don’t assume
      >> Abel was in on the Hail Mary Plan.

      Maybe not at first… but I would still put SOME money down that says that really is OPS1 Todd Abel talking to Marsh ( and apparently urging him to “Hurry” ) in the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Bravo 33, at that time, I think, was very much in communication with
      >> Todd Abel. Abel was directing the ground ops in the area where
      >> Bravo 33 was operating during that whole 40-minute period (that
      >> included the complicated split-VLAT drop), between when Abel
      >> assured Marsh he would send in air support ASAP –> AA Rory
      >> Collins –> Tom French, and when they actually moved in that direction.
      >>
      >> This is why I’m not willing to hang the “blame” on Bravo 33 for
      >> that 40-minute delay. And I’m not willing to say that Bravo 33
      >> was “out of touch” with the Ground Operations. I think they were in
      >> touch with Ground Operations on the north side, while practically
      >> nobody had much of a clue what was going on on the south/Yarnell
      >> side. (Even though Cordes, Musser, and Sciacca were watching the
      >> fire from 89 at 4:05 PM).
      >>
      >> I think that, until we have access to the Air-2-Ground recording that I
      >> am 99.999999% sure exists somewhere, it is not possible to know,
      >> much less evaluate, what “caused” that 40-minute delay. But I don’t
      >> believe Bravo 33 is responsible for it.

      Something else to “hold in your mind” here when considering all this.

      At 3:55 PM is when Gary Cordes called OPS1 Todd Abel on his cellphone and ASKED Abel to PLEASE tell ‘Air Support’ to IMMEDIATELY start “Dropping at will” anywhere they could in and around Yarnell to try and save anything they could… while there was still time.

      Cordes had to call Abel to tell him to IMMEDIATELY relay that to ‘Air Support’ because Cordes had lost his own ability to TRANSMIT on the Air-To-Ground channel.

      So let’s say OPS1 Todd Abel did that.

      That means that by 3:56 PM… and BEFORE Air Attack Rory Collins actually left the Air Space… there had now been TWO calls ( just 5 minutes apart ) from the overall Ground Operations Supervisor ( Todd Abel ) making it clear to ‘Air Support’ that the situation on the YARNELL side was now critical… and they needed to refocus the ‘Air Support’ to that side of the fire IMMEDIATELY… because the ‘window of opportunity’ was closing ‘down there’.

      But then… the same man ( Todd Abel )… would suddenly decided to ‘hog’ the Air Support just to try and protect a few empty houses on Miner’s Camp Road?

      Something just doesn’t ‘compute’ there.

      Is it POSSIBLE that Todd Abel, himself, was so clueless about what resources were actually ‘in the air’ over Yarnell at that time that he thought just asking for a few drops to continue there on HIS little Miner’s Camp Road project was NOT affecting their ability to actually turn their attention to Yarnell… as HE had already told them to do ( TWICE in a 5 minute period circa 3:5o to 3:55 PM )?

      I don’t know… but I hear what you are saying.

      I’m just trying to fathom how the same guy ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) who had been making it CLEAR to ‘Air Support’ they needed to ‘shift focus’ to YARNELL… circa 3:50 PM… could have then been responsible for them not even turning their attention to it for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.

      Reply

      • We’re on the same cognitive dissonance (and my cognitive dissonance is currently quite serious) page. Which is precisely why I wrote this. Thus, thanks for responding.

        It’s the job of “air support” to carry out what “ground support” asks them to do, and not the other way around.

        That’s why I find it hard to believe that Bravo 33 kept working on “protecting” “the structures” in the area OPS Abel was also working in, without that being in some kind of coordination with Abel. I have a hard time believing that was all happening without Abel knowing it.

        I mean they flew a fricken DC10 twice over that area laying a retardant line in that area without OPS Abel knowing about it or having anything to do with it????? I just find that really, really difficult to believe.

        In spite of what Gary Cordes said to him.

        Namaste.

        Reply

        • Which is why I repeat that I don’t think we can really know what was going on during all of that time, much less evaluate it without the Air-2-Ground recording which I’m 99.99999% sure exists somewhere.

          I think there has to be a reason we don’t have access to that recording.

          My Tin Foil Hat Proudly Perched On My Head..

          Reply

          • Air to ground is Air Attack in a seperiate plane normally.

            They were both in the Lead Plane. and working two different Frequencies
            That may be why we do not have Air To Ground.

            Again for clarity just a thought not putting together a story. .

            If it was a Air study recordings in may have not included Ground conversations. Lead Plane dose a lot of talking to all air craft on site that may have been what the study was about and recording the Pilot if he talked to ground not normal then that would have recorded as well

            Reply

            • You could be absolutely correct.

              It still doesn’t make any sense to me.

              Why would they be studying the efficacy of Aerial Retardant placement (which is what I thought this whole program was all about) without recording the communications between Air and Ground?

              That just doesn’t make any sense to me. But I’m just nothing but a humble tax-paying citizen.

              (who has to keep deleting “http://deleted” every time I post a comment here.

              Reply

              • I am still trying to figure out what they were studying.

                If they wanted to know effectiveness they should have been filming the drops.

                Recording Radio Traffic.

                Using for training.

                Who knows with out any objectives??????

                I am trying to check that out thru local FS.

                So far no one has a clue not looking good on that level.

                Reply

                • Hi Bob,

                  This is probably the most important question, “What were they studying?” If the study was evaluating human factors, it veers into psychology, meaning that they would be vague or even dissembling about the purpose of the study to avoid skewing the results.

                  If it was an audit looking for contract fraud, they might also try to obscure the true purpose to capture the behavior they suspected.

                  Maybe they were studying the effects of having a lead pilot and AA in the same plane.

                  In any case, if there is even a tiny chance that the study negatively impacted management or operations, precipitating the fatal event, I predict you will have trouble finding it.

                  Reply

      • OK I’m just gonna imagineer (hypothesize) this out a little further.

        You wrote:

        “If Paul Musser was not fully aware of what Gary Cordes either had planned or had ALREADY ‘set-in-motion’… then you can be sure by the time he exited the passenger side of Gary Cordes’ truck ( circa 4:10 PM )… and headed down to Shrine road… he certainly KNEW it from THAT timeframe forward.”

        I agree with that.

        The VLAT split was around 4:15. I still think that drop had to have been done with Abel’s knowledge and approval, or even request.

        So now, I’m wondering if it’s possible/impossible etc that Abel, knowing Musser was moving south to take over the Yarnell area, was waiting for Musser to take over before actually releasing the aerial resources he was using to do what he was doing until Musser was there to take charge of them?

        (Regardless of what he said to Marsh and regardless of what Cordes asked him to do — and I think Cordes’ “time-stamping” of things in his ADOSH interview is fairly off).

        It just seems to me possible to probable that one OPS might, all things considered, given the general chaos that was unfolding, decide to want to wait a bit (regardless of what he said to Marsh etc) to “hand off” “his” Air Support (while he was trying to finish off what he was doing using that Air Support) in order to “hand off” that Air Support to the other OPS, rather than just release them to “free float” wherever (what Gary Cordes was asking for — and we all know how qualified Cordes was – ahem – for the job he was doing) without someone he trusted on the ground to direct them?

        That’s currently what I’m thinking.

        Again, I don’t think we can really flesh this out without the Air-2-Ground recording.

        Reply

        • PS I agree with pretty much everything you have written here, other than what I have replied to.

          Regarding “the plan.”

          I agree that Cordes (inside of his own head) probably had no clue as to where, exactly, the dozer line should go.

          I also think that it’s rather possible that, as we mapped it out on Google Earth, the most feasible place to put it would have been from where the dozer was staged, through that wash, and then over to the road leading into Boulder Springs Ranch.

          Cordes would most likely not have known that.

          But I agree with what you wrote way back when, that Eric, looking at the scene from way up above and then asking Brian Frisby to come all the way up to the anchor area (for what else?????) may very well have been looking at that area and imagineering where to put that line in.

          I don’t think that route was inside of Cordes’ head, but I would bet major dollars it was basically inside of Eric’s head.

          Can we pleeze haz the un-redacted Blue Ridge notes and the Air-2-Ground recording????? At the very least???

          Reply

          • I am still not bought in on this hail may plan it was just to late in the burn period and when things were going to hell.

            But keep looking—– You will never hear it from Cordes EVER

            Reply

      • WTKTT,

        you said:

        “But then… the same man ( Todd Abel )… would suddenly decided to ‘hog’ the Air Support just to try and protect a few empty houses on Miner’s Camp Road?

        Something just doesn’t ‘compute’ there.”

        Maybe it wasn’t Abel that was hogging the air support to protect a few empty houses on Miner’s Camp Rd. What other personnel in a supervisory role were working in that area that would have the authority to direct drops? Where was Willis working at the time?

        Woodsman

        Reply

        • In the timeframe in question… ( 3:50 PM up to time of deployment, circa 4:43 PM )… Todd Abel was supervising the protection of just a few empty structures in the Miner’s Camp Road area… and Darrell Willis was supervising some burnouts and other things happening in the Model Creek Road aarea. There really were no ‘structures’ at threat right there on that stretch of Model Creek Road where Willis was working… but there is no question that if the fire had kept burning to the north and it had jumped over Model Creek Road… the entire community itself would have been in a heap-o-trouble.

          But it was also Darrell Willis who told ADOSH that even the drops that were happening in his area did NOT make much difference, in the end.

          According to Willis… it was ONLYbthe actual wind shift and reversal that kept Peeples Valley from ending up looking like Glen Ilah eventually did.

          Reply

      • “I would still put SOME money down that says that really is OPS1 Todd Abel talking to Marsh ( and apparently urging him to “Hurry” ) in the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video.”

        I woke up too early, and I’m about to go back to bed but I was re-reading your comment in more detail and ended up focusing on THIS. I know I think you’ve said this before but I didn’t believe it. So I just kind of passed it by. Until now.

        And I thought “STOP!!!!”

        It doesn’t make sense to me. Contextually speaking. Which is why I have passed it over.

        That being said, I do think you are the most savvy person we have regarding voices. So you think that sounds like Todd Abel? How does that sound like Todd Abel? What are you comparing it to?

        I’m not contesting this. I’m just openly asking.

        I have basically (confessing my confirmation bias which has got me into trouble before) “assumed” that Todd Abel was mostly focused on what was going on and what he was doing and what he was in charge of and what he was organdizing on the north end of the fire during this period of time (which plays into my thinking regarding the 40-minute delay regarding “air support.”)

        I wasn’t assuming he was all that “in on” the “Hail Mary Plan.” Or, if he even was, as I’m trying to “imagineer” it right now, I would think he would have assumed Paul Musser would have been the one more invested in “paying attention” to it. It just wasn’t “his territory” at that time. That’s been my thinking.

        Also, in my mind, Paul Musser was his senior “in the pecking order.” Why would Abel “intervene” like that in something that would, at that point, have been “in Musser’s territory,” so to speak?

        Which makes me now wonder. Could that possibly be the reason for the obfuscation regarding what what’s his name (I’m falling back asleep as I’m writing) said to the families regarding there being no radio on that video? Because I’m sure some of the people connected to those families were pretty familiar with Todd Abel’s voice, given his involvement with the Academy, etc.

        Hmmmmm, quite intriguing, and something I’m going to do some more thinking about.

        Reply

        • With regards to the voice at the start of the Yarnell-Gamble video… in my opinion… it still COULD be Todd Abel simply because it SOUNDS like him.

          Especially the way this speaker is using “Ah” and “Umm”.

          Nobody else on any other radio capture uses ” Ah” and “Umm” the way Todd Abel did… and I believe that same vocal signature is heard right there at the start of that Yarnell-Gamble video.

          Reply

  22. **
    ** ARIZONA FORESTRY EMPLOYEE WOLFGANG GRUNBERG TOLD
    ** ARIZONA FORESTRY’S DEUPTY DIRECTOR JOY HERNBRODE
    ** THAT THE YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO HAD NO RADIO CAPTURES IN IT

    As part of the ‘written questions’ being submitted by Granite Mountain Family Members prior to the February 5, 206 settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day… one of the repeating questions from many family members had to do with the YARNELL-GAMBLE video, presumably shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble, at 4:27 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    They ( family members ) wanted to know WHY the Arizona Forestry subcontracted SAIT Investigation ( Co-Led by USFS employee Mike Dudley and Florida State Forester Jim Karels ) had totally neglected to even MENTION this video in their investigation report.

    This one piece of evidence ( that had always been in the SAIT’s possession ) was, in and of itself, proof that the SAIT’s story about there having been NO direct communications with Eric Marsh between 4:04 PM and 4:37 PM was bullshit.

    They also wanted to know WHO it was that Eric Marsh was talking to, at 4:27 PM, and seemed to know where Granite Mountain was supposed to be by then and was telling Eric Marsh to “Hurry them up”. That is when we hear Eric Marsh offer the explanation of why they weren’t where this other person thought they should be by then as “…They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”. ( As in… they had a long way to come and they are still on the way ).

    Here we see Arizona Forestry Deputy Director ( Administration ) Joy Hernbrode reaching out to fellow Arizona Forestry employee Wolfgang Grunberg for HELP regarding how to answer these questions from family members about that YARNELL-GAMBLE video.

    NOTE: Wolfgang Grunberg’s actual JOB with Arizona Forestry is “Project Coordinator, Urban and Community Forestry”… but it appears Gunberg has ‘computer skills’ and he became the ‘keeper of the SAIT evidence and photos and videos’ following the termination of the SAIT investigation.

    Wolfgang comes back to Joy and tells her there is NO AUDIO on the YARNELL-GAMBLE video that has always been in Arizona Forestry’s possession.

    ———————————————————————————–
    From: Joy Hernbrode
    Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 1:40 PM
    To: Wolfgang Grunberg
    Subject: Yarnell

    Wolfgang: Do we have any audio from 6/30 at 16:27?

    I have a couple of questions from the family about it and I don’t
    remember anything from that time frame. Thanks!

    Joy L. Hernbrode

    Deputy Director, Administrative Services
    Arizona State Forestry
    1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
    Phoenix, AZ 85007
    Direct: (602) 542‐4490
    ————————————————————————————–

    And here is Wolfgang Grunberg’s response to Joy Herbrode…

    ————————————————————————————–
    From: Wolfgang Grunberg
    Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:16 AM
    To: Joy Hernbrode
    Subject: RE: Yarnell
    Hi Joy,

    This is what I could find in our notes but I would like to consult Paul in
    case there is some video we should double check.

    – Starting at ca. 1633: radio transmissions between DIVS A and Bravo 33
    recorded by USDA FS (Prescott National Forest) firefighter helmet cam

    – 1626: video of BR IHC Crew Carrier leaving shrine area – no radio (recorded by USDA FS).

    – Starting or ending at 1628 (have to double check): retardant drop study
    video (20130630_1628_EP.MOV) with, what appears to be, air to air radio
    communication ( mostly Air Attack but also B33, Ground Contact Alpha, …).
    Mentions “heck of a wind shift… we got a lot of fire heading towards Yarnell ”
    at minute 02:45.

    Ciao, WG

    Wolfgang Grunberg
    Project Coordinator, Urban and Community Forestry
    Arizona State Forestry
    (602) 399‐1886
    [email protected]
    ————————————————————————————–

    So this is Wolfgang rerring specifically to the YARNELL-GAMBLE video…

    – 1626: video of BR IHC Crew Carrier leaving shrine area – no radio (recorded by USDA FS).

    He tells Joy Hernbrode there is NO RADIO TRAFFIC recorded in the video.

    That is, of course, a COMPLETE LIE.

    Some other things to NOTE about what AZF employee Wolfgang Grunberg was telling Joy…

    – Starting at ca. 1633: radio transmissions between DIVS A and Bravo 33
    recorded by USDA FS (Prescott National Forest) firefighter helmet cam

    Wolfgang is referencing the original “Helmet Cam Video”, which we now know was video filename M2U00265… and just one of 21 separate videos that the SAIT always had in their possession shot by off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd ( of the Prescott National Forest ).

    But notice that Wolfgang is still incorrectly quoting the 1633 ( 3:33 PM ) start time of the written transcript for this video, as supplied by US Forestry when that video was released in December of 2013. Even the README.TXT file that accompanied that video from US Forestry SAID that they knew the transcript time was WRONG… and that the time of Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call was actually 6 minutes later… at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ).

    – Starting or ending at 1628 (have to double check): retardant drop study video (20130630_1628_EP.MOV) with, what appears to be, air to air radio communication ( mostly Air Attack but also B33, Ground Contact Alpha, …). Mentions “heck of a wind shift… we got a lot of fire heading towards Yarnell ” at minute 02:45.

    Wolfgang is referencing the 3:50 PM Air-To-Air Radio channel capture where we hear Air Attack Rory Collins TELLING Lead Plane pilot Thomas French to shift the ‘Air Support’ priorities to the YARNELL side of the fire. It’s also where we hear Thomas French agree to do that… and he tells Collins he is (quote) “Headed that way”.

    But Rory Collins then left the fire… and Thomas French decided ( himself ) to NOT do what he told Collins he would do for another 35 to 40 minutes.

    The BOTTOM LINE here ( from these emails )… is that it would appear ( following this email from Wolfgang ) that Joy Hernbrode waltzed into that Q/A meeting and her ‘official’ answer to all the questions from the family members about the YARNELL-GAMBLE video was one ( or both ) of the following…

    1. We don’t seem to have any video captured at 4:27 PM, so I’m afraid I don’t know what you are talking about.

    2. We DO have a video that appears to show someone sitting in a Blue Ridge Crew Carrier around 4:26 PM… but this video had NO RADIO CAPTURES in it.

    And she ( apparently ) got away with it.

    Unbelievable.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      And when Grunberg tells Joy Hernbrode…

      “This is what I could find in our notes but I would like to consult Paul in
      case there is some video we should double check.”

      …Grunberg is, of course, referring to Paul Musser.

      Other recently released emails now prove that the man who was ‘Planning OPS 2’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire ( Paul Musser ), had… after the tragedy… been working closely with both Arizona Forestry AND the Arizona Attorney General’s office to help them combat the lawsuits coming from the Granite Mountain family members.

      Reply

    • Second followup…

      Forgot to mention…

      When Wolfgang Grunberg WROTE the following to Joy Hernvrode…

      – Starting or ending at 1628 (have to double check): retardant drop study video (20130630_1628_EP.MOV) with, what appears to be, air to air radio communication ( mostly Air Attack but also B33, Ground Contact Alpha, …). Mentions “heck of a wind shift… we got a lot of fire heading towards Yarnell ” at minute 02:45.

      NOTICE that he is putting a ‘timestamp’ on this radio transmission when Air Attack Rory Collins was talking to his Lead Plan pilot Thomas French of 1628 ( 4:28 PM ).

      He is OFF by 38 minutes.

      That conversation between Rory Collins and Thomas French that he was mentioning to Joy Herbrode actually took place at 3:50 PM.

      And THIS is the guy who was the ‘technical consultant’ being used by Jeff Whitney and Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry to try and prepare answers for the Granite Mountain family members, as the legal settlement REQUIRED them to do.

      Unbelievable ( Yes… I just have that word on a Function Key Macro now so I don’t have to keep typing it all the time ).

      Reply

      • “And THIS is the guy who was the ‘technical consultant’ being used by Jeff Whitney and Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry to try and prepare answers”

        He should have hired us. We were two years ahead of them.

        While I’ve been privately bitching about doing all this work for some lawyers for free.

        Reply

        • I often believe that as points are uncovered and deliberated here at IM, the PTB say: “Thank you very much, that’s helpful,” and delete part of the paper trail that they hadn’t thought of before.

          Woodsman

          Reply

      • Wolfgang… Wolfgang… help… help…
        Families want to know who was talking to Marsh at 4:27 PM!!!!!

        Joy… Joy… not to worry.
        There is no AUDIO on that video. Problem solved.

        Reply

        • At least on Daily Kos I can post this big ole “triple face-palm” image that I have in my DKos Image Library. Unfortunately, I can’t do that here.

          But if I could, I would.

          So you have to just imagine it, instead.

          Reply

      • I still haven’t hooked up my hard drives, but, off the top of my head, I think we were down-loading that video (complete with it’s audio complete with the radio captures) and discussing it fairly early in fricken 2014.

        I get it that the families hate us because we are, by attempting to scour the record as honestly as possibly (while attempting to deal with our own confirmation biases), putting some serious blame on Marsh and Steed for what happened.

        But we’ve also been trying to honestly (I know I have) and relentlessly answer the exact same questions that, apparently, they’re asking.

        We’ve been asking FOR OVER TWO YEARS who is saying that in the Gamble video. We’ve been asking FOR OVER TWO YEARS who is asking “Waz yo status?”

        We’ve been asking FOR ALMOST THREE YEARS who else on this fire was setting the stage for this complete debacle and participating/enabling in its unfolding.

        And, then, documenting the ongoing BS involved in attempting to make sure that the facts involved in that wouldn’t see the light of day.

        It took us OVER TWO YEARS to figure out (thanks to Joy’s help) that there was an attempt to put in a Last Minute Hail Mary plan to put in a dozer line from Glen Ilah to the Boulder Springs Ranch that included Gary Cordes, (probably) Paul Musser, Cory Ball, the dozer, and Granite Mountain.

        We were the ones to scour the interviews and figure out that Bravo 3 figured out, by 12:30 PM, that the fire was going to reverse direction that afternoon and attack Yarnell. And who, instead of communicating that to anybody that mattered, warned fricken Lance Marquez of it, who didn’t pass that on to anybody who mattered, either. And then they spent an hour or so, in apparent isolation of anybody who mattered, putting in an ineffectual retardant line that was easily burned over later that afternoon.

        And, yes, we get off on our tangents and our arguments and our rants. And I hate the ad hominems.

        And often we “wander off” into what WTKTT wisely calls “imagineering” because that’s what we have to do. Wonder about what, given what we know via the evidence, MIGHT have been happening. That’s how the scientific method works. You take what you know, create a hypothesis, and then test it.

        Yes, we have a lot of unproven theories out there, in our heads and in the comments. But at least we’re trying to honestly figure it out.

        While, apparently, vis a vis this totally stupid statement by this guy, the PTB are scrambling as fast (and as incoherently) as they can to keep trying to hide the truth.

        And all we want is to stop wildland fire-fighters from getting killed and getting themselves killed. I really have no ulterior motives. I just don’t understand what’s so wrong with that.

        End of rant.

        Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 2, 2016 at 7:10 pm

          >> Marti Reed said…
          >>
          >> But we’ve also been trying to honestly (I know I have) and
          >> relentlessly answer the exact same questions that, apparently,
          >> they’re asking.

          Wait until you see the ACTUAL ( full ) list of questions that were submitted ( in writing ) to Arizona Forestry for the settlement-mandated ‘Q/A’ day, which took place ‘in secret’ on February 5, 2016.

          MOST of the ‘questions’ from family members and their attorneys were coming right from this ongoing PUBLIC Forum.

          Reply

  23. Some thoughts regarding the topic of “Air Support.”

    I think the conversation regarding “sending Air Support ASAP” has to include the fact that there was a Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line between the north end of Glen Ilah and the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch being hatched. And that Granite Mountain was a part of that plan — witness Cordes instructing Esquibal to send an engine or two there to get them out safely.

    Given all that was going on at that time, I’m not assuming Abel was in on that plan. But I think Musser was.

    I do think that when Abel (probably, via the communiques WTKTT has documented) subsequently advised AA Rory Collins, who then advised Bravo 33 Lead Plane Pilot Tom French French to shift the focus to the Yarnell/SW part of the fire, he was thinking in general terms, not specific ones.

    Here’s where I get stuck.

    I think Brave 33 was very much in communication with Todd Abel. Abel was the OPS on the ground in the area where Bravo 33 was “leading” all those aerial resources (including the VLAT) during all of that 40-minute period (including that two-prong VLAT drop), between when Abel told Marsh he would “send air support ASAP” and when Bravo 33 finally started to shift to Yarnell .

    I don’t think Bravo 33 was “out of touch” with the “resources on the ground.” I think they were very much in touch with Todd Abel. They may have been “out of touch” with what was happening on the south/Yarnell side of the fire, but not in the area where they were working at the time.

    I agree with Bob Powers’ description downstream of the problem with what happens when Aerial Support Modules are inserted into wildfires that are too big and complex for what they are designed for. And I think that’s part of what’s going on here.

    My cognitive dissonance here is around Todd Abel telling Marsh he will send “aerial support ASAP” and then, apparently telling AA Rory Collins to do that, and Rory Collins apparently telling Tom French to do that, and then, apparently, Todd Abel continuing to keep using Bravo 33 to continue doing what they were doing on the north side of the fire.

    Without the Air-2-Ground recording, which I 99.9999999% believe exists somewhere, I don’t believe it’s possible to develop a fair assessment of what was going on during this time, and I’m not willing to throw French and/or Burfiend under the bus for it. I don’t think they were that “out of touch” with what was going on on the ground in the area where they were working. I think a whole lot of people were out of touch in the area where the fire was, after it turned, heading.

    I think it’s possible that Eric interpreted what Abel said in both a general and maybe more specific way. I think Eric had, inside his head, the Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in that dozer line (somewhat more specific) but even more so, just a general assumption that more aerial resources were going to be moving into the Yarnell/Glen Ilah area. I do think that influenced him.

    I don’t think any of this specifically had to do with anything regarding the deployment (except maybe in desperation, maybe).

    This is why I am not willing to dump a whole lot of blame on Bravo 33 for that 40-minute delay. Without the Air-2-Ground recording, I believe it’s not possible to really know what was going on regarding that.

    And maybe that’s why we don’t have that Air-2-Ground recording???? Who knows??????

    Reply

  24. This is an extension of the thread below concerning the 2011 Bull Fire Entrapment, in which helitack were instructed that if needed they should pull a Wag Dodge and burn out their own safety zone. As absurdly funny as that was, I noticed another lesson learned was:

    Start operations earlier. Why can’t pilots get up early?

    I thought it was a peculiarity of the YHF that they got such a late start, but now I see otherwise. It may be my provincialism, but the monsoon is such a strong influence on fire and occurs fairly regularly, especially in southern Arizona, schedules should work around it.

    Is there a practical reason why operations can’t start at dawn? Then they can plan to be off the mountain by 1400 and still have an hour or two margin of error. Starting at 1030 is just stupid.

    Reply

      • Muzzy,

        Thanks for the cheer, haha!

        Good point on catching the late start to air resources. I saw that too.

        Woodsman

        Reply

    • Most Ops and Air Branch want to have the fleet available during the peak of the burning period in case something buggers off.

      However a smart ic would have the machines flying at dawn, putting down water, when most effective…

      Did all of the heli support or air tankers do any significant good at 16:30 on June 30th????

      Maybe, but at 07:00 would have been much better, imho

      Reply

    • Reply to Muzzy post on June 2, 2016 at 3:03 pm

      >> Muzzy said…
      >>
      >> Starting at 1030 is just stupid.

      I agree… but just for the record… Air Attack Rory Collins told the SAIT investigators that he left Deer Valley ( near Phoenix ) for Yarnell at 7:50 AM on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013. That puts him in Yarnell not long after 8:00 AM that morning.

      10:30 AM is about the time he was directing the SEATS that were in Yarnell to dump all over Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain’s ‘indirect burnouts’ up by the anchor point.

      ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview Rory Collins.

      From Rory Collins’ SAIT Interview notes.
      ——————————————————————–
      Interview with: Rory Collins – Air Attack – LDF – Roseburg – 11:00 a.m. 7/13/2013

      SAIT Interviewers: Jimmy Rocha, Jay Kurth, Mike Dudley, Jim Karels

      Certified ATGS
      Work for Douglas Forest Service as Protection Supervisor

      July 30 – Took off from Deer Valley around 7:50 to the fire. I had worked the previous day also. I got to the fire and it was 200-300 acres. When I left the evening before, it was 40-50 acres. I reported the growth to Arizona dispatch.

      Etc… etc…
      ————————————————————————

      Reply

      • Hi WTKTT,

        Yes, you’re correct about Yarnell. The 1030 remark referenced the Bull fire.

        But even 0800 is late. Dawn that time of year is about 0500. That’s a lot of time with mild winds. I wonder how many acres the fire was then. Of course, Collins needed sleep, so it would have needed someone else.

        But it isn’t just air support. Hotshots were in place about 0800, briefings were later than that, DIVS Z arrived around noon. Again, part of the problem was team turnover and staffing difficulty. Nevertheless, the weather was right on schedule.

        Honestly, I’m beginning to think that the only time to fight fire in Arizona is in the winter, doing fuel reduction, notifying homeowners that their non-defensible homes will burn in a fire should one arise, and planning evacuation routes and shelter locations for displaced residents. Of course, there isn’t a politician or administrator in the world who would sign that press release ?

        Reply

        • Ayep, I almost completely agree with what you said. Sez this resident of New Mexico.

          But really, I think we need a complete re-think about how these fires are fought.

          Yarnell was bad enough on Sunday. But even worse on Saturday. They didn’t even get a crew on the ground on the fire until practically noon. Noon????

          I’m not as incensed about what happened Friday night as Sonny (righteously) is. What happened on Saturday, however, is just painfully incompetent, imho, all over the place.

          Reply

          • On Saturday, June 29, 2013….

            1. There were 40 ( FORTY ) firefighters right there in the Yarnell Hill Fire Station parking lot by 8:00 AM. ( Yuma and Lewis DOC crews ).

            2. ALL of them were ( supposedly ) fully qualified Type 2 Initial Attack crews with the ability to ‘hike’ to a work location, if necessary.

            3. Only SIX out those FORTY were initially sent up to work on the actual Yarnell Hill Fire… but even they weren’t actually working on the fire until very late morning… HOURS after they had arrived at 8:00 AM.

            4. From NOON onward… there was a fully capable BLM Transport Helicopter available at the Yarnell Fire Station… WITH full capability to be doing bucket drops at any time.

            5. ALL afternoon… that BLM N14HX helicopter was fully available to ferry more firefighters to the Helispot on the Weavers, OR be assisting the ones that were up there with bucket drops.

            6. ALL afternoon… Shumate kept being told by the FFs that WERE up there that everything was ‘under control’ and ‘progressing’ and they would be ready for the planned ‘work-finished dust-off’ later that afternoon.

            7. Things STARTED to get ‘loosey-goosey’ up there… Shumate decided to send bladder bags up instead of doing actually bucket drops.

            8. WHILE the Helicopter was hovering DIRECTLY over the still-smoldering fire work area ( because the Helitack Nate Peck was there at the fire workline instead of up at the Helispot )… the fire flared up and ‘spotted’ across the road.

            9. Late afternoon SEAT retardant drops at critical times completely MISSED their targets, and turnaround times were inadequate to recover.

            10. The crews that were up there ran out of chain-saw gas… and lost their ability to even TRY to cut line around the escaping fire.

            11. Near dusk… the firefighters that were up there were told to STOP WORKING and just sit and WATCH the fire all night.

            And the rest is history.

            It was a classic case of TOTAL FAIL… and contains just as many “Lessons to Learn” as the next day would (tragically) provide.

            Reply

  25. Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on June 1, 2016 at 8:52 pm

    >> RTS said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT,
    >> You posted: “Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International company’s former
    >> US Marines who was hired by US Forestry to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill
    >> Fire Staff Ride.”
    >>
    >> Jim Cook was never in the Marine Corps and therefore, never a Marine.

    You are absolutely right. I stand corrected.

    He is, however, definitely an ‘OMNA Internatinal’ employee, and one of the co-authors of the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.

    I guess I got Jim Cook mixed up with fellow OMNA International employee ‘Eric Carlson’, who was also one of the co-authors of the ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.

    Eric Carlson is definitely ‘former Marine’.

    Same ‘Eric Carlson’ also shows up on a ‘Wildland Fire Leadership’ page, which says that Carlson is also the LEADER of OMNA’s “Gettysburg Staff Ride”…

    http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2012_07_01_archive.html

    But again… you are right… Jim Cook is one of the few employees of OMNA International who is NOT either a ‘former’ or a ‘current’ member of the US Marine Corps.

    The ‘Incident Action Plan’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride lists THREE ‘OMNA International’ employees on it ( Darrell Willis is one of the three )…

    OMNA employees Eric Carlson and Darrell Willis serving as ‘Technical Specialists’, and
    OMNA empoyee Jim Cook serving as the actual ‘OPS’ ( Operational Section Chief ).

    Eric Carlson is that other person you were ‘Cc-ing’ on your own email conversations you where having with OMNA employee Jim Cook… along with Arizona Forestry Staff-Ride coordinator Don Boursier.

    Here’s part of that ‘conversation’ you and Jim Cook were having, after you felt the need to NOTIFY him ( directly ) what was being said about the ‘Staff Ride’ on the PUBLIC InvestigativeMEDIA forum…

    —————————————————————————————
    From: doug fir ( xxxxxx (at) xxxx.com )
    Date: Sunday, February 28, 2016 7:14 PM
    To: Jim Cook ( xxxxx.xxx (at) xxxxxxx.com )
    Cc: Eric Carlson ( xxxxxx (at) xxxx.xxx ); Don Boursier ( donboursier (at) azsf.gov )
    Subject: Re: YH Fire Staff Ride

    Jim ( Cook ),

    Thanks for your reply. That’s all my email was – just an FYI of what’s being said out here in the hinterlands. And I know that there are many with good intentions, who are trying their best to provide an unbiased look at the incident. As you and I agreed upon, it’s still too early, too many emotions, and too much anger and sorrow still. Yes indeed, its going to be a bumpy road.

    I consider myself in the group trying our best to provide an unbiased look at the incident. It’s pretty difficult at times, because even though I wasn’t on the YH Fire, I was pretty close to both Marsh and Steed. And one of the major obstacles for me is the YH Fire SAIR, which I consider to be the biggest whitewash and cover-up in wildland fire history.

    Best regards,
    Fred Schoeffler
    ——————————————————————————————

    What’s also interesting is what ELSE this OMNA International employee, and co-author of the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’ when he ‘replied’ to you.

    Here we see one of the actual co-authors of the ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ pointing out that YES… Granite Mountain could have EASILY just ‘walked back to town’ that day, in the SAFE BLACK, regardless of what had gone on with their vehicles…

    ——————————————————————————————-
    Jim Cook said ( in his ‘Reply’ to Fred Schoefflers email above )…

    Finally, I am not disagreeing with the above opinion that making a decision to RTO back out to their vehicles at some point that day was a very viable option…but honestly, the exact location where GMs vehicles were parked that day was not a determining factor in the eventual outcome. They could have walked all the way back to town just as easily, no matter where the vehicles were parked. That didn’t happen for a number of reasons…just saying this is an uniformed rant, which on-line forums seem to generate with too much frequency…and which is why I don’t spend too much time on the internet, so I do appreciate knowing about this and thank you for passing it on.

    Jim Cook
    ——————————————————————————————–

    NOTE: The ‘uniformed rant’ that Jim Cook is referring to is what actually caused him to eventually APOLOGIZE to Marcia McKee ( the mother of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee ). Jim Cook ended up admitting to her in another email that his information in his invitation letter to her had been ‘incorrect’. That Arizona Forestry had been unable to obtain the correct hiking permissions for the ‘Staff Ride’ to actually be “The TRUE (full) path of Granite Mountain on June 30, 2013.

    Reply

    • Followup… ( for RTS )…

      Are you still in touch with Jim Cook and/or Eric Carlson and/or Don Boursier on a regular basis?

      How did the ‘Charlie’ Staff Ride go?

      Just curious.

      Reply

  26. **
    ** THE ENTRAPMENT AT THE 2011 HORSESHOE TWO FIRE

    Most of the online articles about the ‘Entrapment’ that took place at the 2011 ‘Horseshoe Two’ fire ( the one under discussion below ) contain links to the original release of the official ‘Horseshoe Two Entrapment Investigation Report’…

    …but most of those are DEAD LINKS.

    There is nothing there ( what WAS there has been REMOVED ).

    But the following appears to be the ‘new’ link to view those ‘Horseshoe Two Fire Entrapment Investigation Reports’…

    Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
    Horshoe 2 Fire ( 2011 )
    State: Arizona
    Incident Type: ENTRAPMENT
    http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=0a7475d4-6060-4faf-848f-920e2e0d9158

    The Horseshoe Two Fire ENTRAPMENT took place after a manual ‘burnout’ operation was started at 12:30 PM that day.

    Reply

    • WTKTT,

      I want to know what hotshot crews were on the Bull fire on the Coronado on April 29, 2011. It seems we have ANOTHER 2 ff entrapment in addition to the Horseshoe 2. Anybody care to offer up just which crew(s) were on this one?

      Common factors for the 2 fires (Horseshoe 2 & Bull) identified by reports include (but not limited to):

      1. Firefighters were in the green downwind and upslope from firing operations.
      2. Firing operations were implemented with a sense of urgency to protect values at risk.
      3. Firefighters had gloves with them but did not have them on their hands during the
      entrapment.

      Reading the report, it’s not difficult to find disturbing information on the Bull Fire as well.

      To wit:

      “When the Incident Commander arrived with the last firefighters at 0955, the hotshots had begun line construction and were just starting firing operations. The local crews were headed to their positions. The IC had a quick discussion with the helitack crew about their role, before heading down to the control line below them. The IC told the helitack crew to remain at H-3. Their safety plan, should the fire cross the constructed line below them, was to light an escape fire –establishing a safety zone –and step into the black.”

      The IC told the helitack crew that their safety plan was TO LIGHT AN ESCAPE FIRE & STEP INTO IT???!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????

      R-3 is fucked up beyond all recognition…

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • On the Bull Fire after the firing operation jumped the control lines at 1040 due to the RED FLAG winds, “at least three large slopovers headed north towards the helitack crew at H-3 (helispot.) The 2 helitack apparently diligently followed orders for their safety plan & tried to burn out around themselves…………..which prompted ran them off downslope toward the main fire………..which promptly ran them off back up slope to H-3. The dodged the flames and both received burns.

        You just can’t make this shit up! This really happened!

        Remember what I say: It’s up to you to look after yourself because management is sure not going to do it for you!

        Woodsman

        Reply

      • Almost forgot and this is very important:

        WAG DODGE EFFECT!!!!!!!!!

        There it is, right there. I told you it’s real. You heard it here!

        Woodsman!

        Reply

        • It is strange to me while we discussed the Mann Gulch Fire we never had Any training on the WAG DODGE EFFECT,

          It all concerned Grass and Grass can spread fast up hill with wind just filed as info.
          No one ever said do this every time any place any fuel.

          Thanks Woodsman Interesting.

          Reply

      • More from the Bull Fire report:

        ……………………..and………………there it is…………………..:

        “The IC recognized that there was unburned fuel
        between H-3 and the burn operation. They covered LCES. The IC directed the crewmembers to ring the helispot to create a safety zone for both crewmembers if needed. He used shorthand to describe the planned safety action as “’Wag Dodge’ it if there are problems.” The IC left H-3 and headed south toward the burn operation.”

        The Incident Commander ACTUALLY USED THE PHRASE WAG DODGE IT!!!!

        I 100% rest my case on this point. I never actually thought I was going to read the actual words in the report straight from the IC’s mouth! Goll Damn!!!

        Have we all lost our ever-loving freaking minds in the wildland service!!??

        Woodsman

        Reply

        • Reply to Woodsman post on June 1, 2016 at 10:49 pm

          >> Woodsman said…
          >>
          >> More from the Bull Fire report:
          >>
          >> ……………………..and………………there it is…………………..:

          Un—-fooking—-bu-leeb-a-bull

          And this MORON is still ‘out there’… being paid TAX DOLLARS to tell other civil-service employees what to do?

          PS: I haven’t forgotten the merged Yarnell Air-To-Air and Air-To-Ground radio channel transcripts you requested. They are on the way.

          Reply

          • WTKTT,

            I know. It’s freakin’ scary!

            When I developed the theory of the ‘Wag Dodge Effect’ and how it may be influencing firefighters to believe in setting an escape fire to ‘step’ into as a viable survival option…………I never in my wildest dreams thought I would read those actual words in an entrapment report!

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • And I’m going to preempt those that are getting ready to tell me that setting a fire to jump into is no big deal and can work depending on conditions, fuel type, etc, etc etc.

              My ‘Wag Dodge Effect’ theorem is the idea that some wildland firefighters may fantasize about one day lighting an escape fire to heroically save themselves and a crew just like they read about in the book. What a hero they would be! A regular ol’ Wag Dodge, a living legend!

              Woodsman

              Reply

                • Reply to calvin post on June 2, 2016 at 3:12 am

                  >> calvin said…
                  >>
                  >> BRH were instructed to burn out a safety
                  >> zone at the YHF also. Right?

                  Correct.

                  But ( apparently ) not so much ‘instructed’ as ‘deciding it by THEMSELVES.

                  In the part below… it says “they briefed the crew”… which implies it was Frisby and/or Brown TELLING the BR crew to ‘Wag Dodge it’ back in the Sesame Clearing… if they needed to…

                  From the SAIT interview with Blue Ride Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Travis Fueller, and Cory Ball…
                  ———————————————————
                  Tied in with cortis for the 1st time, at this time he didn’t want to evacuate Yarnell, the trigger pt was the ridge. They needed 4 ppl to move the buggies @ 1530, they briefed the crew there 1st escape route was to the hwy and out, 2nd escape route was back to the junction burn out the grass.
                  ———————————————————

                  …2nd escape route was back to the junction burn out the grass.

                  Reply

          • WTKTT,

            And thanks for doing the work on the transcript overlays. I’m just trying to wrap my head around the full context of what was happening out there. At least as much as I can. The way things are going lately, it’s getting to be a monumental task.

            Woodsman

            Reply

        • This sounds like the GMHS incident that Woodsman tells us about the Bull Fire and the Wag Dodge Effect? Did they mean Wag Dog Effect–where the tail wags the dog. Sort of like the tiny man walking a huge dog–I have seen a man walking a dog but never a dog walking a man. Once of 300 miners washing uranium dirt off in those open shower banks–a small man with a huge pole–and one wise ass miner said good lord, I’ve seen a prick hanging off a man, but never a man hanging off a prick. .

          It goes to the idea that we wild land fire fighters that manage a wild fire, but at the Yarnell fire we were seeing wild land fire fighters that were managed by the wild fire.

          We did after all see that the men like Woodsman’s account of the Bull Fire begin to start fires–and try to back burn behind them–we wonder as to what you hear were they also back burning as they came up to the two track drop off point into the bowl? Joy and I did see those videos of back burning at the Shrine and there are a few photos that show an intense smoke right in that area. I do believe that video will again surface since it was on line and we had looked at it more than once. That fire when wind went south and southwest would have hit Glen Isla sooner than even the fire in the photo north of Donut when he was near the old grader. It was within a much closer proximity of Glen Isla and the Helms as well and definitely would have cut off any eastward progress of the GMHS. Their dual role as structure protection cost them dearly as did their thoughts of depending on cutting out manzanita and stacking it around themselves then placing faith in the flimsy blankets. Yet all the while they had ample time to make it into the boulders–only I estimate a 70 yard dash to the boulder field on that ridge. The brush is already back in the canyon enough to where an estimate of time to get through the brush to the boulder field could be made and a survey of alternative thinking to keep alive in manzanita made–of course that is not what the cronies want since it would again give a bad record of how the GMHS bosses lacked survival skills that would have kept the men alive.

          We are glad to hear from Holley–she gives alternative thinking to the board–and one can see where she is coming from. I wonder why Wayne Neil does not post–he hiked with us and I learned a lot from him about fire fighting methods. He would be a boss that would keep his men alive in those type situations and I could see right away if I were a young man learning the wild land fire fighter situation and how to do things properly and stay alive, he would be one to trust.

          Reply

          • should be when wild land fire fighters manage a fire —the only fires I helped manage were lightening strikes–trees were still burning and some brush around but we were able to clean out around enough to stop the spread–why it boggles the mind to understand why so many local firemen from three local fire departments (I don’t have the roll call numbers–Joy says there are volunteers as well) that did not immediately respond to that lightening strike, especially knowing the extreme conditions (-4) listed as the most extreme. It would be wonderful if some of those men that read this post explain it to old citizen Sonny. I certainly would like to know the excuses for the delay.

            Reply

          • Burning out around yourself should not be a primary (or even secondary) safety plan. In the case of the Bull Fire, it was identified as a primary safety plan. It should be an absolute last resort if conditions allow AND you have exhausted ALL standard safety procedures, ie: the fucking basic rules of wildland firefighting.

            You CANNOT rely on this tactic as a safety net just as you CANNOT rely on a fucking fire shelter as a safety net. This is basic stuff here,

            What I call the “Wag Dodge Effect” is the heroic premeditated fantasy of pulling this maneuver in order to gain praise, notoriety, or fame. It’s NOT a viable or reliable primary safety plan for wildfire personnel.

            Woodsman

            Woodsman

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • Dang, how did that happen……………….OK, I did it on purpose in order to start a cheering chant for myself at IM……..Who’s with me?

              Woodsman! Woodsman! Woodsman!!!

              Reply

            • Reply to Woodsman post on June 2, 2016 at 9:15 am

              >> Woodsman said…
              >>
              >> Burning out around yourself should not be a primary
              >> (or even secondary) safety plan.

              Tell that to Brian Frisby, Superintendent of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.

              Leader of (supposedly) one of the most highly respected Type 1 IHC Hotshot crews and someone a lot of other people are on record saying “I’d trust him with my life”.

              When Frisby briefed his own crew… he told them their secondary ‘Escape Route’ was back to the grass clearing and to then just ‘burn it out’ ( and get in it ).

              As in: ‘WAG DODGE IT’.

              From the SAIT interview with Blue Ride Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Travis Fueller, and Cory Ball…
              ———————————————————
              Tied in with cortis for the 1st time, at this time he didn’t want to evacuate Yarnell, the trigger pt was the ridge. They needed 4 ppl to move the buggies @ 1530, they briefed the crew there 1st escape route was to the hwy and out, 2nd escape route was back to the junction, burn out the grass.
              ———————————————————

              “…2nd escape route was back to the junction, BURN OUT THE GRASS”.

              Reply

              • Way different than the Wag Dodge burn out,

                A road a junction and grass once burned a good SECOND choice where they were should they get cut off out to the highway. If the fire had cut them off which it did not do and they drove out. Every one drove out.

                Wag Dodge was above the fire with no SZ they were running up a grass slope He stopped and started a burn and got in it and moved up in it as the burned black got larger. They were walking down to the fire from their jump zone when the fire took off towards them. It was not a planed decision but a quick fix. The Overhead should have planed a SZ but it looks like every one was on their own to drive out to the highway.
                They should have done that 2 hours before. Build a large SZ or drive out of there then.

                You can guess the watch out that created and a couple of orders.

                When you are out and indirect you need to chose what you have they could not burn there until they needed to. The location was on the other side of the Dozer line out side the control line. Their main plan was to drive out to the road and that worked well.

                Again indirect line can be a serious problem. Why the Dozer was not instructed to build a SZ would be a good question that is a normal practice for Dozer safety and any crews following the line. Plus the burn out for a fall back point.

                Reply

                • Woops Put my addition in the wrong place.

                  It was not a planed decision. end of paragraph.

                  The Overhead should have planed a SZ but it looks like every one was on their own.—————etc.
                  Should have been at the end of the Last Paragraph
                  Starting at —–the end of —Plus the burn out for a fall back point.

                  Reply

                • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                  June 2, 2016 at 3:26 pm

                  >> Bob Powers said…
                  >>
                  >> Way different than the Wag Dodge burn out,

                  Well… no matter how you ‘spin it’… if they ( Blue Ridge ) had actually been unlucky enough to have to exercise that ‘second escape route/safety zone’ plan that Brian Frisby had given them… it would have pretty much LOOKED about the same as anyone trying to burn out grass… around them… and hoping it gets ‘black’ fast enough to survive.

                  It would have still been cross-all-your-fingers-and-toes-and-hope-this-works-fast-enough-before-the-real-fire-engulfs-the-area CRAZY TOWN!

                  Actually… if the worst HAD happened… and the Blue Ridge Crew had tried to run to the NorthWest on the Cutover Trail and towards their buggies at the Youth Camp… only to find that this PRIMARY escape-route had been cut off… they would have then found themselves more that 3/4 of a mile away from their ‘secondary’ safety zone out there in that grass in the Sesame Clearing area.

                  Actual distance from the northwest end of that ‘Cutover Trail’ they had been working on and the other southwest end would have been…

                  0.82 mile(s) / 1,450 yards / 4,351 feet

                  So even if they found themselves even attempting to do what Frisby had told them was their ‘secondary escape route’… at the speed the fire would have been moving in order to have cut off their PRIMARY route… they would have probably just gotten ‘trapped’ somewhere along the Cutover Trail and would have had to just try to deploy there on that dozer push itself.

                  It didn’t happen ( Thank God ).

                  There were already enough bodies to haul off that fire that day.

                  Reply

  27. WantsToKnowTheTruth says
    MAY 31, 2016 AT 6:24 PM

    I think Charlie is just ‘reminding’ us ( with that link above ), that this person named Holly Neill is the same one who SIGNED her initial emails to ADOSH Lead Investigators Marshall Krotenberg with simply…

    “A FAN of GMIHC”.

    I’m ‘this person named Holly Neill’ and I’m going to reply to this against my better judgment.

    After the fatalities occurred I often called myself one of Granite Mountain’s greatest fans, for one reason and one reason only: Because of what those men faced and endured during the last 10 minutes of their lives.

    I know you want to skew and twist this to mean otherwise… like I am biased… I’m always defending the crew… I’m not objective, whatever. Make of it what you will.

    As far as using fake names, and digging up information on everyone else…isn’t it interesting that YOU remain anonymous? You can nitpick apart everyone else who is respectfully transparent and who doesn’t hide in your dark little shadows…. But no one can put you under a microscope to dissect your character, your profile, your photos, and your life.

    Why don’t you grow half a nut and put yourself out there to be examined, critiqued and analyzed as well? You sure can dish out loads of anonymous, hypocritical, self-righteous bullshit. Your commentary is cowardly and devoid of integrity, because you don’t have the character to OWN it.

    Wants To Know The Truth- but hides behind a fake name?

    Wants To Know The Truth- but can’t tell the truth about who you are?

    Duty-Respect-Integrity. You ought to look up the meaning. Oh that’s right, you’ve never been a firefighter, you can’t be expected to understand or apply the meaning.

    I’ll say it again, so you get it:
    My name is Holly Neill and I am a SUPER FAN of GMIHC, and I always will be…
    BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY FACED AND ENDURED TOGETHER,
    DURING THE LAST UNSPEAKABLE MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.

    Reply

    • Reply to Holly Neill post on June 1, 2016 at 3:49 pm

      >> Holly Neill said…
      >>
      >> After the fatalities occurred I often called myself one of Granite Mountain’s
      >> greatest fans, for one reason and one reason only: Because of what those
      >> men faced and endured during the last 10 minutes of their lives.

      I understand… and it is perfectly obvious from those many emails you exchanged with ADOSH ( and particularly lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg ) that you wanted them to actually CHANGE or AMEND their ‘official investigation report’.

      Your exact words to ADOSH…

      ————————————————————————————-
      “Would you be able to print an addendum to the report to add clarity and additional details to the original report? The goal would be to give the Families and the WFF community the TRUTH so that we can all move forward, heal and apply lessons learned that are clearly based on the actual circumstances.

      I have used the above (attached) audio file to make some comparisons to the SAIR and WFA reports to illustrate some of the possible implications of this audio. Changes would need to be made to add this additional information and correct previous assumptions. I believe this will lead to leaving a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC; providing more clarity for their families, and adding a better understanding of possible lessons the entire WFF community can learn.

      Holly Neill.
      ————————————————————————————

      ADOSH subsequently informed you that no, regardless of what ‘evidence’ you thought you had that represented more of the ‘TRUTH’ ( as you were seeing it ) that might lead to a ( your quote ) “more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC”… ADOSH’s Yarnell Hill Fire workplace FATALITIES report was already FINALIZED, and ADOSH had already reached the limit of the maximum fines and citations that Arizona State Agency was allowed to impose on ANY Arizona employer.

      So there is no ‘secrecy’ there.

      It is perfectly obvious what you wanted ADOSH to do… as a (quote) “FAN of GMIHC”.

      You thought what you had heard ( at 4:13 PM ) in the Panebaker Air Study video was some kind of absolute proof that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      You thought this also represented ‘proof positive’ that at least the ‘scouting’ part of what Hotshots are SUPPOSED to have done before using ‘escape routes’ had, in fact, taken place that day.

      Brendan McDonough has since confirmed that… in his own interview with author Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today. Brendan confirmed that Eric Marsh really was ‘scouting ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ that afternoon, prior to Jesse Steed and the rest of GM deciding ( or being ORDERED ) to leave the safe black and begin their hike to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      What we still do NOT know is whether this ‘scouting ahead’ that Marsh did also means it was HIS decision ( alone ) for the other 18 men to take that ‘shortcut’ through that blind box canyon full of unburned fuel, within 1/2 mile of a raging, wind-driven fireline. If it was… then whatever ‘scouting’ Marsh had done did not change the outcome. They all died, anyway.

      But while it does seem clear now that Marsh WAS doing SOME kind of ‘scouting’ prior to the disaster… we ( still ) have no proof of what ‘route’ Marsh was actually ‘scouting’, or even how far he might have gotten before returning to die with the others.

      It actually remains possible that Marsh had simply ‘scouted’ the two-track/trail that was easily visible that day ( even with Google Maps ) all the way to the BSR… and that it was actually Jesse Steed himself who eventually made the fatal ‘mistake’ of deciding to take that ‘shortcut’ through the blind box canyon.

      Not all that likely, all things considered, but still ‘possible’, I suppose.

      Recent emails that have been released are mentioning YOU on a number of occasions.

      Apparently… you were DENIED permission to attend the settlement-mandated Family Member ‘Question and Answer’ day back on February 5?… just like the father of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill?

      Your situation is referenced at the bottom of this email…

      ——————————————————————————-
      From: Clark, Shannon L. ( xxxx (at) xxxxx.com )
      Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 5:19 PM
      To: Joy Hernbrode ( Arizona Forestry Deputy Director – Admininstration )
      Cc: Anthony Hancock ( xxx (at) xxxxxx.com); McGroder, Patrick J.
      Subject: Q&A 2/5

      Hi Joy:

      Can you let me know who will be at the Q&A?

      My clients have requested the following, many of whom you don’t control:

      Paul Musser, Roy Hall, Russell Shumate, Byron Kimball, Todd Abel, Gary Cordes, Tony Sciacca, Brendan McDonough, Tom Cooley, Rance Marquez, Brian Frisby, Rogers Trueheart Brown, Thomas French, John Burfing

      My understanding is that Abel will be there but Cordes will not.

      They ( my clients, the family members ) have also asked you to reconsider Holly Neil’s presence at the session. I’m told she’s not helping write the book ( has just done research ). But would like to attend as a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation and would agree to be bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure. Think about it and let me know.

      Working on getting questions corralled.
      Shannon
      ——————————————————————————-

      So, apparently, some family members wanted YOU to be there at the Q/A session on February 5, 2016, but Arizona Forestry was refusing to let you attend because of your association with author John McClean and the ‘book’ he is writing?

      And above we see attorney Shannon Clark asking Arizona Forestry to ‘reconsider’ and allow you to attend… because you were ( supposedly ) only doing ‘research’ for John McClean?

      Can you confirm or deny?

      There is no email as part of any Arizona Open Records or FOIA fulfillment which indicates whether Arizona Forestry ever relented… and allowed YOU to attend the Q/A session?

      Did you really get to attend, or not?

      If so… what can you tell us about it?

      All of the actual QUESTIONS that the family members submitted for that settlement-mandated ‘meeting’ and that Arizona Forestry was REQUIRED to ANSWER are also now available.

      If you actually did end up attending… do you feel the questions were being answered truthfully?

      *** Also…

      Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International company’s former US Marines who was hired by US Forestry to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.

      Here he is responding to an email he received from veteran 26 year Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent Fred Schoeffler, just prior to the ‘Family’ Beta Staff Ride when it was discovered that while the invitation letters to the GM Family Members said they would be walking (quote) “The TRUE path of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on Sunday, June 30, 2013″… that was actually NOT going to be the case for the first 1/3 of the hike.

      ——————————————————————————-
      From: Jim Cook, OMNA International
      Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 4:30 PM
      To: Fred Schoeffler
      Subject: Re: YH Fire Staff Ride

      Well Fred…anyone who tries to extrapolate that much analysis from one short sentence in an invitation email and some second hand GPS info is actually the moron. The very simple and obvious reason for the current route is available access (which will get more problematic over time). The Sesame Street route is thru private property with owners having no interest in letting a group traverse their land…as well as some self evident logistics problems with vehicles and large groups. I really don’t think the “true path statement” was meant to be taken literally for GMs path the whole day, it was intended to reflect the critical movements up the hill to the Anchor Point and then on toward the Ranch. We have many staff rides that we currently deliver where the “exact” path and locations are not followed.

      This staff ride is intended to be the best learning opportunity we can provide at this time. I know there are some involved who want to “protect” the crew’s reputation, I know there are some who feel there is a conspiracy to suppress information, but there are some who are trying their best to provide an unbiased look at the incident…its going to be a bumpy road.

      Maybe if some people from the Coconino NF would open up to this group instead of chatting on the side with John Maclean’s book team, that learning process could accelerate.

      But either way, it will take time for all the controversy to get aired out. We are still seeing “discovery” of new revelations at the South Canyon Staff Ride by people that were on that fireline in 1994!

      Sent in Reply to an email recevied Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 1:29 PM,
      from doug fir ( xxxxxxxxxxxxx (at) yahoo.com )
      ————————————————————————————

      Notice this quote from Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride author Jim Cook…

      Maybe if some people from the Coconino NF would open up to THIS group instead of chatting on the side with John Maclean’s BOOK TEAM, that learning process could accelerate.

      Obviously he ( Jim Cook ) is talking about the Blue Ridge Hotshots, and he seems to be saying he knows for a fact that they have been talking to author John Maclean’s ‘book team’.

      Since YOU are actually ON John Maclean’s ‘book team’… can you verify ( or deny ) this statement coming from Jim Cook?

      Have (any) Blue Ridge Hotshots been ‘talking’ ( already ) with either YOU or John Maclean, ( or others on your same ‘book team’ )… in lieu of contributing to the actual ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’?

      One last question…

      How is John’s book actually coming? Any planned publication date yet?

      Reply

      • I will venture a guess.

        Marsh went as far ahead as the berms near BSR.

        Marsh had the responsibility of calling calling for the air support that was promised.

        Marsh was in position to call for drops at 1610 or so, about the time the crew was dropping off the two track.

        Once all the retardant was dropped on the north end of the fire, Marsh headed towards the crew, knowing it would be a few minutes, maybe too many, before the next few aircraft (vlat primarily ) arrived with retardant.

        And they all died. But before they did. I believe there are more radio calls that have not been released, possibly not recorded.

        Reply

        • Only one VLAT on fire and 2 SEAT”S VLAT carries 10,000 SEAT 2,000.
          No next few aircraft. In fact the VLAT was not there at that time 1610 it was reloading. Hmmmmm not quite a good guess?????

          Reply

          • Bob,

            I just wanted to recommend that you double check your load capacities on the 2 aircraft you gave the specs on. I would love an 802 with 2,000 gallons – that would be freakin’ awesome!

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • He can double check those little ‘details’ while he also double checks his reality-meter. There WAS a VLAT ( 911 ) at Yarnell at 1610 that day. See below.

              Reply

            • Woodsman My bad

              I was checking the type 4 orders and saw a P2v type 2 T45 my mistake.
              The Seats were type 4 . 100/200 Gal.

              .
              The SEAT’s were getting short on Duty time 8 hours. One came on at 7:30 ish. and one around 9:00 Also French did not think SEAT could do any good on South end. Turn around times were a factor to airport reload and back 20 or 30 MIN.

              You can only make one run at a time so thus the hold and circle.
              Pull Hairs 1606 or 1610 what ever.
              The SEAT’s had to drop before you could use the VLAT.

              Because he said he parked the VLAT off to the west because of High winds you think he is a LIER you really are full of it how about checking the winds at 1606 to 1630. 15 to 25 right?????

              If you think my discussion is full of shit you sir are irrelevant with no fucking knowledge of Air Tanker use or Fire Fighting. When some on speaks generally you turn into a Fact freak.

              When you start calling people Liars you show your full DOUMB ASS attitude.

              Reply

          • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2016 at 8:05 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> Only one VLAT on fire and 2 SEAT”S VLAT carries
            >> 10,000 SEAT 2,000. No next few aircraft. In fact the
            >> VLAT was not there at that time 1610 it was reloading.
            >> Hmmmmm not quite a good guess?????

            You’re doing it again, Bob.

            You are speaking in some kind of ‘authoritative’ manner about what was happening in the Air over Yarnell…

            …and you continue to be completely full of shit.

            At 4:06 PM, DC10 VLAT 911 ( with pilot ‘Kevin’ ) got close to Yarnell airspace on its approach into the area.

            ‘Bravo 33’ Thomas French has him ‘in sight’… and then tells him to HOLD UP, and just go into an ‘orbit’ about 7 miles out from Yarnell… because Thomas French was still working with TWO different newly-arrived SEATS on that little ‘Miner’s Camp Road’ project ( where even the few structures that were even there had been totally evacuated hours earlier ).

            —————————————————————–
            +18:25 ( 1606:23 / 4:06:23 PM )
            ( B33 – French ): Nine one one… we gotcha in site… uh… just set up a… uh… kind of a… maybe a orbit out there just a few miles west, okay?

            +18:31 ( 1606:29 / 4:06:29 PM )
            ( DC10 VLAT 911 ): Okay… go out to the west… make a (left) orbit… wait for ya.
            —————————————————————–

            VLAT 911 goes into an ‘orbit’, right on the edge of Yarnell, just waiting for an assignment from French.

            French continues working the SEATS on the NORTH end of the fire.

            He does a drop in the ( evacuated ) Miner’s Camp Road area with SEAT Tanker 810.

            WHILE that drop is happening ( with SEAT 810 ), SEAT Tanker 874 notifies French ( on A2A channel ) the he is also now ‘arriving’ at the edge of the Yarnell airspace.

            At 4:07:56 PM, SEAT Tanker 810 makes his ‘drop’ in the ( evacuated ) Miner’s Camp Road area on the NORTH side of the fire…

            ——————————————————————-
            +19:58 ( 1607:56 / 4:07:56 PM )
            ( Tanker 810 ): Eight one zero’s off the drop.

            +20:01 ( 1607:59 / 4:07:59 PM )
            ( B33 – French ): Perfect, man… that was right on. Nicely done.
            ——————————————————————–

            French tells Tanker 810 to ‘load and return’… and also tells him to be sure and WATCH OUT for DC10 VLAT 911… who is now just ‘orbiting’ near Yarnell with his finger in his ear just waiting for French to decide what he wants to do with his entire fresh load of retardant.

            ——————————————————————
            +20:16 ( 1608:14 / 4:08:14 PM )
            ( B33 – French ): Load and return. Uh… give me a… kind of a sharp left turn-out. Uh… (keep) the DC10 in sight and just stay… uh… kinda inside their turn.

            +20:25 ( 1608:23 / 4:08:23 PM )
            ( Tanker 810 ): Okay. Got ’em in sight. We’ll stay outta their way.
            ——————————————————————

            There’s much more… but are you getting the picture?

            You are still WRONG about what was happening, and when, with regards to the ‘Air Show’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire.

            And speaking of people being full of shit…

            Thomas French apparently said the following to RTS, in person, at some point… ( during the Staff Ride, I believe? )…

            —————————————————————–
            >> RTS said…
            >>
            >> French did say that they had to divert or ‘park’ the VLAT off to
            >> the south during all this due to the strong winds.
            —————————————————————–

            If Thomas French actually said that to RTS ( or anyone )… he is a LIAR

            The only time he ‘parked’ the VLATS in an ‘orbit’ in/around Yarnell that day ( June 30, 2013 ) is because he hadn’t figured out what to DO with them yet. There is absolutely NOTHING in captured in ANY of the Air-To-Air channel radio exchanges that indicates he was EVER ‘parking a VLAT’ because of of ‘the winds’.

            Reply

      • Holly… a followup…

        From the email above from Shannon Clark to Arizona Forestry…

        ————————————————————————
        They ( my clients, the family members ) have also asked you to reconsider Holly Neil’s presence at the session. I’m told she’s not helping write the book ( has just done research ). But would like to attend as a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation and would agree to be bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure. Think about it and let me know.
        ————————————————————————-

        If you ( Holly Neill ) actually were eventually given permission to attend this settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day… did Arizona Forestry actually make you sign a ‘confidentiality’ and/or ‘non-disclosure’ agreement… as you have ( apparently ) offered to do in order to be able to attend?

        Reply

        • Also… regarding your request to attend the settlement-mandated Q/A day as (quote) “a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation”.

          Is that actually referring to the ( full name ) “Eric Marsh Wildland Fire Foundation”, founded by Amanda Marsh…

          or did Shannon actually mean to say you were requesting to attend on behalf of your OWN “Safety Matters” foundation?

          Reply

      • Some do.know the real identity of wwtktt and accept his anomonity and to answer wwtktt..adosh did their investigative reporting and they cannot reopen it and that is.why Holley and.myself were told no. Case was closed. I am on a magnesium citrate day so away from pc but I supposed good timing because I don’t like to see people I care for talked to like this…you want people to come here but when they do…Bob is a good man…speak respectful…he only reacts when he is picked on…Holley really has a heart for a lot and I only called Charlie out because I could not reach him by phone or text…and did not get link provided. Gotta run..get it 🙂 almost 14 days no movement and kidney stones obstruct that area so not been good day…I like everyone here even the pop ins..shows people do remember that weekend I lived through…I have buried way too many after this fire here locally and so just hoping June treats everyone well..enjoy…if someone helps direct me a map maker link…I will work on it but never tried again after it froze

        Reply

      • wwtktt said as copy/paste from Shannon to Joy H.:
        bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure.
        my reply: huh? are you serious wwtktt? she drove all the way from NM for the q&a event? was it under her safety organization? interesting. hmmm….Hmmmm.
        hmmmm…that is all I can muster to think and say-

        Reply

        • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 1, 2016 at 6:52 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura…
          >>
          >> wwtktt said as copy/paste from Shannon to Joy H.:
          >> bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure.
          >> my reply: huh? are you serious wwtktt?

          The email from Shannon Clark to Joy Hernbrode, of Arizona Forestry says that if they ( Arizona Forestry ) wanted Holly Neill to sign some kind of ‘confidentiality agreement’ in exchange for Holly being ALLOWED to attend the settlement-mandated GM Family Q/A day… that Holly Neill had ( apparently ) already said she would be willing to do that.

          I was just wondering if that’s the way it really went down ( or if Arizona Forestry ever ‘allowed’ Holly Neill to be there at all ).

          They had already told the attorneys for the family that THEY ( Arizona Forestry ) did not WANT her there.

          The email was asking Arizona Forestry to ‘reconsider’ that decision.

          >> Joy A. Collura also said…
          >>
          >> she drove all the way from NM for the q&a event?

          Are you ASKING me that… or are you TELLING me you know she did?

          >> Joy A. Collura also said…
          >>
          >> was it under her safety organization?

          I don’t know. That’s the question I asked above.

          The EMAIL says she wanted to represent “Wildland Fire Foundation”.

          Does that mean she was asking to be there on behalf of Amanda Marsh’s foundation ( and not her own “Safety Matters” foundation )?

          Dunno. Maybe she will clarify that.

          Reply

      • WTKTT,

        You posted: “Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International company’s former US Marines who was hired by US Forestry to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.”

        Jim Cook was never in the Marine Corps and therefore, never a Marine. He was not in any branch of the Armed Forces. He served as the Arrowhead (1981-1990 and 1992-1995) and Boise (1996-1998) Hot Shot Superintendents respectively and the USFS National Training Products Coordinator after that.

        ‘“You can’t apply an OSHA model to what we do. It’s not a factory floor,” said Jim Cook, who recently retired after 37 years in fire service, including 18 years as a hotshot crew superintendent and 14 years as training projects coordinator for the U.S. Forest Service at the National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC) in Boise.’

        From the article cited below, nowhere does it mention in this brief bio about Jim Cook being in the Marine Corp.

        Among other things, he’s trained with them at the Marine Corps University and was instrumental in the Leadership Committee of the NWCG Training Working Team.

        This is from an excellent, multi-link article by Billy Stanton of Magicvalley.com titled “South Canyon Fire: Never Again.”

        It has numerous links which include the 1994 South Canyon, the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, the 1976 Battlement Fire, including excerpts of Human Factors, leadership, fire shelters, Staff Rides, and much more of interest and worthy of discussion and debate.

        http://magicvalley.com/app/projects/never-again/Fire/index2.html

        And the “moron” comment was in reference to a post you made about the YHF Staff Ride Development Group rerouting the actual GMHS route and calling it ‘factual’ and deriding the fact that ‘they’ called it the ‘true path.’

        Reply

        • I just remembered this gem from the article above:

          “The Granite Mountain Hotshots of Prescott, Ariz., made the [South Canyon Fire] pilgrimage there two years ago to pay their respects, recalled Darrell Willis, wildland division chief for the Prescott Fire Department.

          “We hiked Storm King Mountain with this (20-member hotshot) crew, AND WE ALL SAID. ‘THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO US.’”

          REALLY? The parallels between these two fires are staggeringly similar.

          They evidently did not learn from this fire and garner the fatal causal factors and lessons learned here, including the Human Factors, responsible for EVERY non-environmental, wildland FIRE fatality.

          Reply

        • Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on June 1, 2016 at 8:52 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >>
          >> WTKTT,
          >>
          >> You posted: “Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International
          >> company’s former US Marines who was hired by US Forestry
          >> to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.”
          >>
          >> Jim Cook was never in the Marine Corps

          You are absolutely right. I stand corrected.

          Jim Cook ( co-author of the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride ) is actually one of the few ‘OMNA International’ employees who is NOT either a ‘former’ or ‘current’ US Marine.

          See a longer ‘Reply’ above…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-338058

          Reply

    • Holly said: “Wants To Know The Truth- but hides behind a fake name?”

      my reply: actually that is not accurate- the people that count in this do know who wwtktt is-
      and the blog nickname is wwtktt which is proper for this tragedy and the blog nickname-

      Holly said:”But no one can put you under a microscope to dissect your character, your profile, your photos, and your life.”

      my reply: actually there are those who can do that (put you under a microscope to dissect your character, your profile, your photos, and your life.”)- but once you know who he is- you do not dare- I mean we the world are very fortunate to have all these resources and organizational skills of this man. yes, he can be intense and precise but he is doing one thing…working through what is given and trying to organize it based on what is shown as public evidence and sharing it for years now and has helped me from day one- the IM crew may be a diverse set of folks but the core purpose is to gather more and more information and a free place to just be you not edited or redacted like we saw with the SAIT folks-

      Hard for me to participate not just because health but trying to find a simple way to make a map that does not lock up on me while making it- for Muzzy- plus the next 5 weeks I am tied to doctor stuff and surgeons…so I got to pause for this day to stop BRAT regimen but to do what—magnesium cit-rate—oh e’- I am going to get my kale salad in after whatever happens; happens.

      Thank you to John Dougherty for having a freedom of speech place to express, thank you Marti for all your photo help and being such a beautiful soul, and thank you Gary(been here a long time Aug 2013)/Bob(been here a long time Sept 2013)/RTS(Robert the Second)/RockSteady/Norb Szczurek/Otis/Calvin/Woodsman/Muzzy/Holly/EN/David Turbyfill(been here since Sept 2013 on and off)/Clair C./The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive/dale1/wildfire65/Typ6/henry shatney/Dan Key retired Silver city hotshot superintent/Hopeful that all negatives stop/Avery Haggard/Ron Anderson/East Coast Fireman/William Riggles/Sue Jorgensen/wildland dozer/Russell Lowes/AMANDA/Georgia/Brian T. Miller/chandera/Ralph Taylor/Andybinga/Dixter/Chris/Danny King/Linn/Robert Plant/Elizabeth Groom/jnelson/tek9tim/SWADIVS/seymour/Julie/IHC18/IHC Captain/George/Wayne Logan/Nancy Montoya/Barbara Maack/John Bates, Chula Vista FD in San Diego County/Little T/LZ /Steve Delgadillo/Pat Byrnes /George Atwood/Marcia Weary/JimmyBlaze/Donald C Rees/Max Copenhagen/Rod Wrench/Wendy/Greg Ross/Larry Sall/Sinclair Browning/Danne/Jeremy/FullSaillxxx/B Gillaspie/russ truman/Ireiman/JIm Brenner/Janice Stout/jmcdtucson/Flynn/WFF/
      Melody and so many more…
      close with this old past time comment from Robert-
      Robert says
      AUGUST 2, 2013 AT 11:43 AM

      All the reports and comments posted should keep in mind that wildland firefighting is inherently dangerous. It’s an unfortunate tragedy that these brave young men died needlessly. Instead of second guessing, let’s keep their families in our thoughts and prayers, they are suffering and will for a long time. Focus on what can be done to improve safety for those fighting these fires. Perhaps hotshot crews and smoke jumpers should only be deployed in immediate vicinity of structures to protect life and property. Point no fingers, place no blame. Pray for the families of the fallen and ask what you can do to honor these men.
      (http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshot-leader-eric-marsh-violated-safety-protocols-while-acting-as-a-division-supervisor/#comment-1352)

      —————————-
      I always think it is funny when I channel surf on to “Chopped”— the chefs who judge to the chefs who cook- it is just strange…coming here reminds me of that…chop, chop…let everyone be who they are and you be you…and leave it at that and let the world assess from that point—

      Reply

      • I’m chopped–agreed–some even contributed in abstencia. ie-Provencio, Donut and many others–

        Reply

        • Charlie says
          JUNE 1, 2016 AT 7:54 PM

          I’m chopped–agreed–some even contributed in abstencia. ie-Provencio, Donut and many others–

          my reply: no- you are alive and well I can’t say well— but your are alive 🙂

          Reply

  28. Reply to Woodsman post on May 31, 2016 at 6:43 pm

    >> Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> Well, I checked with Forest Service Aviation for information on
    >> Air Studies in 2013 and guess what?……..DEAD LINK at the
    >> USDA website! Fuckers!!!

    http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/publications/aviation/usfs_firefighting_aircraft_study_final_report.pdf

    >> The magnitude of CYA is quite impressive!
    >>
    >> Woodsman

    Copy that.

    Yes… some time ago I spent a LOT of time looking for specific information about this Federally-Funded “Aerial Firefighting Study” that Eric Panebaker and his crew were being PAID to do ( again… totally with TAXPAYER dollars ) that day in Yarnell.

    I wanted to see if the SPECIFICATIONS for the contracted Air Study actually REQUIRED the A2G channel to be recorded along with the A2A channel.

    Government contract. HAD to be ‘Requirements’ and ‘Specifications’, right?

    No joy.

    As far as the Federal Government seems to have been concerned… Eric Panabaker and his entire crew might have been taking home taxpayer-dollar paychecks for all that work they were doing…

    …but there is NO RECORD of that specific “Aerial Firefighting Study” ever even having been
    conceived, requested, authorized, or subcontracted to Panebaker’s group, or ANYONE.

    Like it never existed.

    Your tax dollars at work.

    Begs the question… how many OTHER ‘studies’ or ‘projects’ does the United States Forestry Service have going on, at any given time, with the taxpayer-dollar faucet wide-open… and there is absolutely no public record of any of it happening… or WHO is getting the MONEY?

    Reply

    • The Studies are handled thru the National Interagency Fire Center Boise..
      They usually release the final study documents when the Project is over.

      Did you try there?

      Reply

      • Not anywhere to be found at NIFC either…must have accidentally been deleted. It’s a shame, all that hard work down the drain…

        Woodsman

        Reply

        • Could be internal and not out to the public I could find nothing either.

          It would be quite a large file if they were Recording all Fires with Air support.

          I will see what I can find out through my contacts.

          They would put a report together for release that’s SOP.

          Reply

          • Hey thanks Bob! See if you can find out how they are collecting data and what their specific methods are, For example, what exact data do they collect? I appreciate it.

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • The key is to try and find the CONTRACT itself.

              The document that spelled out EXACTLY what the ‘Study’ was supposed to do… and what the REQUIREMENTS were.

              In other words… does the CONTRACT itself say that the ‘Study’ should present the ‘whole picture’ ( Both Air-to-Air and Air-To-Ground communications )…

              …or were they going to get PAID for this ‘Study’ even if it made no attempt to show the ‘Air-To-Ground’ interaction with ‘Air Support’?

              Reply

              • Whoooo

                This would have been an internal study they were using Government Air Craft and Government Pilots. There is no contract for that. For your info the Lead planes are Government owned the Pilots are Government Employees.

                The Air wing of the FS/BLM would have been doing the study
                What ever it was about or for.

                I would doubt it was under any contract unless some one was putting to gather all the Radio Data as a study contract??

                Reply

  29. Reply to Bob Powers post on May 31, 2016 at 9:19 pm

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT you are beginning to sound like another book with out real facts.

    You’re getting almost pathological on us, now, Bob.

    YOU are the one who is doing nothing but continually proving the old saying…

    “It ain’t what he don’t know that’ll scare ya… it’s what he knows fer sure that just ain’t so.

    Not that who did or did give or get a radio to someone really matters… but here at the end of a month where the TRUTH about the Yarnell Hill Fire took an awful beating… I’m not going to stop pointing out how full of shit you are with regards to the EVIDENCE RECORD.

    You are absolutely IMAGINING things in your own head now… and trying to pawn those ‘facts’ off on others as ‘the truth’ and ‘evidence’.

    Keep reading ( below )…

    >> Bob Powers…
    >>
    >> They quit looking for the Tractor that night when they found it on the County Compound.

    Fer chrissakes… WHO are THEY? WHO ‘found’ it? WHEN?

    What ‘County Compound’ are you even fucking talking about?

    WHERE is the ‘evidence’ to back up this statement you are making ( and that’s the second time I’ve asked. Ya gonna make it THREE? )

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> Get back to reality man. They had no search after dark for the Tractor.
    >> The crew became the only missing.

    Oh… so you found some NEW piece of evidence that says EXACTLY WHEN someone ( who? ) removed dozer operator Paul Morin from the list of ‘missing persons’?

    The exact TIME and whatnot?

    Cool… tell me EXACTLY where that is. I’d like to read it myself.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> The record says Cory took the Radio when he left the cat

    You are completely full of shit. The ‘record’ says no such thing.

    Prepare to read the PROOF that you are completely full of shit on this one, and you are trying to pawn off your ‘imaginations’ on the rest of us as if it’s the TRUTH.

    The ‘BR notes’ and Unit Logs are below, including ANY and ALL references to the ‘radio’ and the ‘dozer operator’.

    Unlike the bullshit you have already said a few times just in the last few posts… it was NOT Cory Ball’s radio. It was Browns.

    Please read on…

    From Blue Ridge Assitant Superintendent Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log
    ————————————————————————
    We are told that the Dozer is not red carded and does not have a radio. I grab MY extra radio and get it ready for the operator. We have ( Cory Ball ) and one other drive up in the ranger and then we brief ( Cory ) that he is to function as a DOZB for the time being and I give him the radio to give to the dozer operator.

    ( Gary Cordes ) calls and requests the dozer to put in a piece of line off the main 2 track to the north that will tie into a road call shrine by the youth camp. We drive down and tie in with him and get the info and then pass it on to ( Cory Ball and the dozer ).

    ( The dozer ) finishes this assignment and they request him to go up north with the ( dozer ) and we send him up that direction to tie in with ( xxxxx redacted xxxx ).
    ————————————————————————

    That’s it, Bob.

    Absolutely NOTHING about him ‘getting his ‘extra’ radio back from the dozer guy’.

    Now… from Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s TYPED Unit Log…

    ————————————————————————-
    Blueridge One requested me plus one to travel to fires edge. I was assigned ( xxxxxxx redacted xxxxxxxxx ) county employee not IA qualified and did not have a radio. Gave radio from BRIHC to operator ( xxxx redacted xxxx ). Crew Member operated vehicle movement back to crew in meadow.

    ( xxxxx redacted xxxxx ) informed me to take ( dozer ) to abandoned two track North of Yarnell and open up route. Tied in with structure group one. Opened road to NORTHEAST around subdivision and then improved back to start. ( BR Crew ) to improve dozer line and potential burnout operations. Instructed to ( xxxx redacted xxxxx ) and move to HWY 89. Staged in HWY 89 with structure group one.

    1600: BRIHC disengaging to safety zone.

    BRIHC one informs Structure Group One they are are pushing engines out of subdivision.
    Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell. Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision to Dozer line. Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision.
    ————————————————————————-

    Again… that’s it, Bob.

    You wanna show me in there where Cory Ball says anything about taking any radios BACK from ANYONE?

    Ready for more… how about Brian Frisby’s Unit Log?… Okay… here you go…

    From Blue Ridge Superintendent’s handwritten Unit Log…
    ————————————————————————–
    As we dot down the road we tied into ( Gary Cordes ), who had the ( dozer ) working in front of him. He informed us that the dozer didn’t have a radio and he would and he would like him to clear out the roads that ran north and south off the main two track. We called ( Cory Ball ) to drive the Polaris ranger up the road and to bring an extra radio.
    ————————————————————————–

    That’s it, Bob.

    Sorry… absolutely NO mention from Brian Frisby about what ever happened to the dozer… and NO mention of anyone ever taking the radio back from him at any time.

    Last but not least… how about the SAIT Interview with Blue Ridge?…

    Well… let’s see…

    From the SAIT Intervew Notes with Blue Ridge Hotshots
    Brian Frisby, Turheart Brown, Travis Fueller and Cory Ball
    —————————————————————————-
    There original assignment was to relieve Gary Cortes, with the Structure Group. Brian and Trew came across the Dozer, he wasn’t carded Trew grabbed an extra radio/cloned it and gave it the Dozer operator, DOZP. The fire had been picking up all day, 6ft fl. Trew had Ball work with DOZP who didn’t know who he was working for, he had no supervisor, no division.

    Ball was working the dozer pushing it back to the Shrine trying to establish some line. The crew was working at the Shrine/ youth camp Cortes offers an engine up to help them with the dozer line. B & T come back, tied in w/ the crew, and give Ball a lat/long with the ending pt for the dozer line. Around 1500 they want to pull the dozer out to go north for structure protection.
    —————————————————————————-

    Again… that’s it, Bob.

    Absolutely NOTHING about anyone giving anyone a radio back.

    Your turn.

    TELL ME where any known evidence record says that the ‘extra’ radio that Trueheart Brown cloned and gave to dozer operator Paul Morin was EVER ‘returned’?

    I’m perfectly willing to believe it might be in something I haven’t checked.

    Your turn. FIND IT and SHOW IT to me.

    And again… not that any of this really matters… but in a month that started with the TRUTH about the Yarnell Hill Fire taking an absolute beating… it’s hard to just let this BULLSHIT that you are slinging here ( as the same month closes out ) go by without calling you out.

    Reply

    • OK So the Tractor never returned to the County yard in Yarnell and is lost in the superstition mountains. No one seem concerned about the Dozer by 1800. where was it?

      The Dozer operator still has the BR Radio and Cory Ball is in trouble for losing it.
      The Dozer operator was Talking to all fire people and relaying messages Right.

      No one could contact him and he did not contact any one.

      Your records prove nothing more than mine so get off your fucking BS.

      My evidence is the final out come. By morning no one was looking for the Dozer
      Because HAY— IT WAS IN THE YARNELL COUNTY COMPOUND SITTING ON THE LOW BOY.
      BALL WAS NOT RUNNING ARROUND LOOKING FOR BR RADIO AT ANY TIME AFTER LEAVING THE DOZER. We both have different conclusions. No evidence either way.

      Your evidence leaves the Dozer/Radio and operator some place in the Superstition Mountains and no one was looking for him.
      Reality— had the operator and tractor been missing they would have pulled every resource to find him as well as the crew. Didn’t happen captain—-They knew his last location and they knew where he came from. It is a big fucking piece of equipment.

      That is a very big piece of equipment to lose. My recollection that some one said the Low Boy was Back in the Compound. But then I do not remember where. The record showed that they stopped looking for it and concentrated on the 19 missing Fire Fighters.

      So I will go back to calling you a DOUMB ASS.

      No more written record on the Dozer or low boy after Ball leaves them at the Parking spot.
      Dozer loads and leaves before he is over run by fire………..
      Ball took Crew Radio………………

      Reply

      • I will go one better this whole thing with you and the Dozer is Morin.

        You will not let go of trying to prove Morin was the person asking the question of location of GM.

        So you will attack my conclusion until you prove you are right.

        Get off it WTKTT It is a far far reach to conclude your theory.

        Until then lost in the superstitions—or parked in the County Lot??????????????.

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2016 at 7:56 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> I will go one better this whole thing with you and the Dozer is Morin.
          >>
          >> You will not let go of trying to prove Morin was the person
          >> asking the question of location of GM.

          That gets us back to “reading for comprehension”, Bob.

          It matters.

          At NO TIME have I ever said I have any PROOF whatsoever that dozer operator Paul Morin WAS the one asking, on a TAC channel, at 4:13 PM… “Granite Mountun… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”.

          At NO TIME have I ever said he is even to be considered the ‘prime candidate’.

          The Morin family surname has MOST of its roots, in the United States of America, in Lousiana CAJUN Country.

          I believe that makes him a ‘candidate’ ( but only ONE of MANY ) for the person who seems to be speaking with a ‘Cajun’ accent… AND using the term “10-4” instead of “Copy”… in the radio transmission that was captured at 4:13 PM on June 30, 2013.

          That’s it.

          Unlike your ability to just dismiss certain possibilities based solely on your ‘experience’ ( and seldom the actual EVIDENCE )… I can’t “rule him out” the way you are doing.

          And I have ALWAYS AGREED with you that your ‘theory’ about someone up at the ICP making the call about ‘status’ is just as valid as any other theory.

          Until we know WHO made that radio call ( and SOMEONE did )… all possibilities are still ‘on the table’.

          Reply

          • Well you have sure beat around the bush about that HAVEN’T YOU???

            And I see no possible conection to him so I am on the other side of your
            ???????READING FOR COMPREHENSION?????
            WHAT THE FUCK Give me a break with you double talk.

            If it don’t fit I ain’t wearing it. Ill stick to my conclusions based on my experience there is nothing in the NOTS OR RECORDES to suggest other wise no matter how much you quote the statements he fell off the radar when he got to his Low Boy.

            Again he was there every body was leaving, the fire was advancing toward his position. Why sit there to be burned over no matter how big the parking area was load up and get out like every one else.

            He was green to Fire– no Red Card– he got the hell out and went back to the County yard. What is so strange about that.

            Every Body was bailing off the Fire at 4:13 on the North and North East side of the Fire.

            When Ball got the Dozer to his Truck and the Low Boy he took the BR Radio that the operator had it was BR’s why would he leave it with the Dozer? Ball had the responsibility to bring the radio with him or maintain control of it. What is so hard about that?

            You at this point are not going to change my mind. till you can discredit the above information. So far you have not done that.
            Give me your evidence Based on what?
            I would first suggest that he was familiar with Radios Working for the County Road Department.. That would also be a real possibility.

            I will go back for you again 10-4 is not uncommon in radio use and clear text. His Cajun name could as well be 3 generations back and born in Arizona.

            Reply

            • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2016 at 3:55 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> Well you have sure beat around the bush about
              >> that HAVEN’T YOU???

              Nope. All the foliage around all the bushes remains intact.

              I was NEVER making a case that Paul Morin WAS ( without a doubt ) the one making the 4:13 PM “Granite Montun… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?” radio call.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> WHAT THE FUCK Give me a break with you double talk.

              It’s only ‘double’ and ‘triple’ and ‘quadruple’ talk because I’ve tried to tell you this simple fact TWO or THREE or FOUR times already.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> You at this point are not going to change my mind.
              >> till you can discredit the above information. So far
              >> you have not done that.
              >> Give me your evidence Based on what?

              Again… I already gave every reason why, if a person has any ‘imagination’ at all ( which, it appears, you do NOT ) the bulldozer operator MIGHT have been either making that radio query himself, or could have been acting as a ‘relay’ for someone else who did not have the correct proximity or line-of-sight to actually make contact with DIVSA, at that point in time.

              If you are still curious about all that… go find it below.

              Reply

              • Sorry WTKTT not Curious about your ramblings.

                I already read them once found little real information.

                I do not think we are talking Imagination here we are talking
                reasonable expectation of what would normally occur That is where we differ. So WTKTT is actually adlibbing in the imagination world where a Radio appears and Morin talks to Marsh but somehow cant talk to any one else? Oh I forgot there was smoke that blocked his trans mission? It has to be a solid object to block line of site.
                So Morin would sit in the cab of his truck and wait for a fire to engulf the area he was parked in, when he could just leave and go back to town and park in a perfectly safe County yard.
                Every body else was getting the Fuck out of there why would he stay to experience a horrific burn over. Crazy don’t you think. Hard to imagine any one would do that.

                Reply

                • As much as I hate to even continue this ridiculous thread of conversation… I really am still curious about one thing…

                  Where in the hell do you even think this ‘County Yard’ thing is that you keep mysteriously referring to… and where you seem to still ‘believe’ the dozer was actaully ‘found’ ( by people you still can’t even name )?

                  Are you actually talking about some place in YARNELL?

                  Or are you suggesting the dozer LEFT Yarnell altogether that afternoon?

                  Reply

                    • The County Road storage facility for Dozers and Large Equipment is in Congress not Yarnell.

                      According to my sources a fenced area.

                      Close enough for you.????

  30. I would like to comment on a recent article titled “Forest Service Ignored Information From Hotshot Leaders About Granite Mountain’s History of Bad Decisions”.

    From the article:
    “In an interview with InvestigativeMEDIA, Provencio provided details of a situation on the Horseshoe 2 Fire on the Coronado National Forest in southern Arizona in 2011 where Marsh was a division supervisor and made a recommendation for work that was rejected by four hotshot superintendents. (Marsh was a division supervisor at the Yarnell Hill fire where he oversaw Granite Mountain, which was under the command of his assistant, Jesse Steed.) …
    “Marsh’s expectation was we can get this done in a short amount of time,” Provencio said. But Provencio and the other hotshot superintendents thought otherwise”.

    Without additional information, it might be easy to oversimplify and condense Provencio’s account into a neat conclusion…suggesting that Eric Marsh acted in an unsafe/dangerous manner as Division Supervisor with supervisory responsibility for multiple IHC’s….all leading to evidence of “Granite Mountain’s history of bad decisions”. However, I believe it is important to follow through and check facts for such serious allegations.

    Marsh was not assigned Division Supervisor as stated, but was assigned Crew Boss (CRWB) on Horseshoe 2 fire in 2011. There are no records or sources* to indicate that Eric Marsh was assigned Division Supervisor.
    *SAIT: H: Qualifications: Master Record: Eric Marsh: pg 335
    *Crew Fire Record 2011: Eric Marsh: pg 340
    *Other: personnel recollections and payroll records.

    Personnel from the Horseshoe 2 fire, including the Type 1 Incident Commander and other overhead, provided their accounts for additional clarification.The following recollection is from overhead personnel on the Horseshoe 2 fire, who wants to remain anonymous:

    “I remember flying it and seeing it. It was a pretty tight little area. We were debating if we should back up to the next ridge or not, and there were a lot of conversations like that going on. Eric (Marsh) had the crew (GMIHC). They were coming down a ridge bringing fire with them. He asked Geronimo and another IHC from California to hike up to them and grab it and take it the rest of the way down. Both crews turned it down. There were a lot of conversations going on about this. The IC’s got involved when the two crews said they were turning it down. The two crews wanted to back up to the next ridge.”

    The Type 1 Incident Commander provided additional information about the refusal/ turn down protocol used by Provencio and the other IHC. Marsh was not assigned as Division Supervisor on Horseshoe 2 fire; he was assigned as Granite Mountain superintendent/crew boss. He was part of a group of 12-14 IHC superintendents. The planning and decision process was led by the Type 1 Operations Section Chief, Branch Director and Division Supervisor.

    The team had a very tricky piece of open line on the west side of the fire and they were trying to figure out how to best handle it. There were a multitude of options. Risk Management/Safety was the first priority.

    There were some long, well thought out discussions on the GO/ NO GO decision to fight the fire aggressively on the west side, and at the end, everyone agreed to go with the plan. When all the lines were constructed and in place (a couple days of extremely hard work by the hotshot crews that were there), and it was time to burn it out, there were a couple hotshot crews who decided it wasn’t safe and refused the assignment. (Not four crews as Provencio states…the recollection being two crews… Geronimo and another IHC from California.)

    The refusal caught everyone off guard because of the earlier agreements. It caused a serious delay in the operational work, by setting everything back several hours and putting a lot of extra strain on all the other hotshot crews that continued with the work. The refusal was a HUGE thing to the Incident Management Team. They immediately reviewed all of their plans, the thought process, the risk management, the values at risk, etc.….

    At the end they all agreed that it still was the best option, and the crews that were up there also agreed.

    When they were finally able to get on with the implementation, everything went off as planned. Crews burned and held some really difficult line. The lines held through the day, but early the next morning a spot fire took off, which erased all that the crews had gained—it was a sad time for everyone. Was part of the reason being the delay caused by the refusal??

    “Probably, but that was the hand we were dealt and we went with it….Those hotshot crews that implemented all the work were outstanding in their efforts and attitude—as good as it gets as far as I am concerned”. — Dugger Hughes, ICT1

    Refusal/turn down protocols were used by Geronimo and the other IHC, and alternative suggestions were made to ‘back up to the next ridge’. But the original strategy and tactics led by the Branch Director, Operations Chief and Division Supervisor went forward as planned, although serious delays occurred as a result of the refusal.

    The following link is to a letter and certificate of commendation from the Southwest Area Incident Management Team, to The Granite Mountain IHC for their professional work ethic, commitment to safety and exceptional performance on the Horseshoe 2 fire:

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5LiZw3EBzOWdnU3MlJSY2k0bDg

    If one sided accounts are taken at face value, we run the risk of over simplifying and making shortsighted insinuations. In this case, the importance of fact checking should be clear. I believe that we can and should be better.

    Holly Neill

    Reply

    • Well Holly you are now Calling two HS Superintendents Liars.

      And then saying that a IC covered his ass by giving GM a letter of commendation.

      There is a lot more to this than meets the eye.

      Like what was said in the review of the Crew complaints and refusal?

      More to this story Ill wager//////////////.

      Reply

        • Lets add the real Meat here——

          Firing out during the Day???? Very risky in those conditions.

          It was a tight area even worse. Risk a lot to save what???????

          Safety Zones and Escape routes????

          Building Fire line Down Hill with fire below????????

          Unburned fuel between you and the fire?????????

          Attempting Frontal assault on Fire????????

          Watch outs that deserved To be stated.

          It was a burn out OR BACK FIRE???????

          You are doing a lot of Recollection or at lest those that are now remembering.

          2 or 4 Crews recollect Two How about posting the Protocol Turn down I am sure that will show how many and why.

          When you provide answers to the above questions then we can evaluate the situation.

          It sounds a whole hell of a lot like THE SOUTH CANYON FIRE 1994.

          You might look at how many Fire fighters Have died Building line down hill???/////////For Joy???????////

          Reply

    • Holly said:”If one sided accounts are taken at face value, we run the risk of over simplifying and making shortsighted insinuations.” and “The following recollection is from overhead personnel on the Horseshoe 2 fire, who wants to remain anonymous”

      MY REPLY: I am glad to see you here. I would like to add I agree with her on one sided accounts yet however I also do not like anonymity where it has nowhere to go to fact check- so I think that is worse when an opinion is given by remaining anonymous-

      if you can publicly say the words than one should be able to publicly say your name!

      Reply

      • it reminds me lately of a recent email when someone says “someone sent me an email that you….” why throw a third person in the scenario like you don’t want people to know you peak here—
        this anonymous bs has to stop—I have been Joy A. Collura 6-30-13 and I am still her today and what is wrong with this whole thing is too many want to remain anonymous and why we cannot see more missing elements—but what we do SEE is lots of leaks or unverified/verified information from higher ups- and let’s not forget Donut’s testimony behind the scenes told to little old ladies at the church or local bank he attended and a lady who drops her kid off at same dance place his girl goes to and bars and casinos where people who knew the men speak up during drinking times- I mean too many leaks and not enough plumbers (People with more details) willing to fix it-

        Reply

      • Or if one remained anonymous than link and redirect to hands on documents that don’t need foia or more digging… Like wwtktt does a lot of sourcing on this site but always has remained anonymous but always willing to answer others inquiries…

        Reply

    • Thank You Holly for doing John Dougherty’s job for him………..I had reached out to John last week or so to speak with him about this and he was in Canada. It doesn’t come as any surprise to me of Dave P’s comments. but have been wondering of the specifics.

      To the rest here on IM this is partly why Mike Dudley did not want to get into this area of thought during the investigation, it would have only presented a lot of BIAS and a whole other set of investigations.

      Reply

        • Really??????????? Well hell yes. Why is it so easy for the living to condemn the dead but its not ok to question the living? I am not actual saying “go easy on GMHS” its just that JD did not, in his article show any background research to the claims made by those describing their beefs with Eric. I was trying to reach JD about whether or not he had checked into any of Dave P’s assertions.

          Dave P came forward, on his own, he wasn’t asked or sought out, He interjected his Personal Opinion about Eric’s fitness as a Leader by sending the email to Mike D. His email and interview does NOT give any documented facts. That also means that he has not been asked to produce such evidence as yet. Hollies statement shows from here work that at least 2 shot crews objected to a assignment on the HS2 fire. It is only fair to take a look at his complaint, email and fairly access it by all means, which means it will be scrutinized, questioned not just taken at face value.

          Quoting JD’s Article “Marsh, Provencio said, had quickly developed a reputation for pushing his crew to outperform other hotshot crews. By 2009, other hotshot crew superintendents began derisively referring to Marsh as “One Up” because of his attitude.”

          Did GMHS produce more work when on fires?

          Does IC or line command know this?

          Is it often that ICs send Shot crews letters of Thanks or Recommendation?

          What would IC have to gain?

          Is there a competitive spirt amongst Shots crew on the line to the work that’s accomplished?

          I do believe that Dave P’s assertions, assessments, thoughts on Eric/Jesse can be relevant to latter Human Factor Assessments

          >To the rest here on IM this is partly why Mike Dudley did not want to get into this area of thought during the investigation, it would have only presented a lot of BIAS and a whole other set of investigations. To the rest here on IM, “MIGHT” this is partly why Mike Dudley

          Reply

          • David said: Why is it so easy for the living to condemn the dead but its not ok to question the living?

            MY REPLY- I agree if the questioning comes from a person with no angle or agenda to create and orchestrate one’s own narratives- than it is okay.
            but what we seen in this- is alot of angles and agendas and I do not see Donut’s book with misinformation being asked to be corrected by the recent person who wanted to make sure we publicly correct a comment—even some creating the platform the hikers are questionable like MacLean suggested at a smokejumper convention in 2015 yet he has never come direct to me and asked me direct questions he questions to further clarify his questionablle mind but has no problem in a large setting of people to degrade the hikers so that comes off to some smokejumpers that MacLean has a narrative of his own…oh yep, he is writing a book eventually-
            but I do agree with MacLean every person should be questioned for fact-checking but my photos say alot that I do not have to say much— it proves I was on the Weavers- it proves I saw what I saw and that’s enough for me…I also always if in private someone questions the hikers are being suggested I “call it out” here and set it straight—but Sonny is right we are not the ones to be talking to about details about the fire like air to ground and radios and such—those should of been answered with purity to David LONG AGO- from the people on the fire-

            Reply

            • Like I said Above there is a lot more information than what Holly produced. Jumping to conclusions dose no one any good.

              I would still like to see the Turn downs.
              Horseshoe #2 seems to have had a burn over with no injuries
              maybe the team was not so good?
              Risk a lot to Save a lot— The structure fire motto.

              Reply

          • Reply to David Turbyfill post on May 31, 2016 at 6:50 pm

            >> David Turbyfill said…
            >>
            >> Dave P came forward, on his own, he wasn’t asked
            >> or sought out, He interjected his Personal Opinion
            >> about Eric’s fitness as a Leader by sending the
            >> email to Mike D. His email and interview does
            >> NOT give any documented facts.

            The ‘article’ was about how Mike Dudley and the SAIT had obviously and purposely decided to IGNORE evidence that was directly related to their ‘in progress’ INVESTIGATION… especially since that taxpayer-funded ‘investigation’ did, in fact, have a ‘Human Factors’ expert assigned who was SUPPOSED to be interested in examining ALL aspects in that area that *might* provide any insight into what happened on June 30, 2013.

            David Provencio TOLD Mike Dudley ( in his email )… that he DID have all of this DOCUMENTED.

            Mike Dudley ( and the SAIT ) didn’t give a fuck.

            Your tax dollars at work.

            >> David Turbyfill also said.
            >>
            >> It is only fair to take a look at his complaint, email and
            >> fairly access it by all means.

            Tell that to Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and the SAIT.

            They were tasked with ( and being PAID to ) fully ‘investigate’ a Historic Wildland Firefighter Fatality Incident that, more and more each day ( circa late summer and early fall of 2013 ) just looked more and more like it was completely based on ‘Human Factors’ ( exactly the way 26 year Hotshot Superintendent Fred Schoeffler told them early on that it would ).

            Yet… when offered some ( DOCUMENTED ) evidence that might have been directly related to those continually-emerging ‘Human Factors’ issues in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…

            They.Just.Didn’t.Give.A.Fuck.

            Who cares if more young men DIE in the future because we don’t feel like answering some guy’s email…. or even ASKING to see the DOCUMENTATION he is offering us. These emails are really just breakin’ up our day.

            Reply

            • plus RTS can chime in here for Fred and Dave-

              to help David understand more of how the article was born-

              Reply

      • oh stop Charlie- what does that link mean anyways? I went there and did not see anything about what Holly just talked about which had good sound valid points-

        One sided and anonymity are good points Charlie-

        Reply

        • I think Charlie is just ‘reminding’ us ( with that link above ), that this person named Holly Neill is the same one who SIGNED her initial emails to ADOSH Lead Investigators Marshall Krotenberg with simply…

          “A FAN of GMIHC”.

          Reply

    • Hi Holly,

      Thanks for the information. I had tried using online resources to find documentation of the refusals by Geronimo and others to no avail. Is there any way for non-FS citizens to access these records without an FOI request? Do hotshots and other employees have access to records of all refusals? I understand that there are employee privacy issues at stake here, but I feel that these provide cover for admins who want to gloss over problems with overzealous sups and crews.

      Reply

      • I believe they are available as part of the Fire record. They were released on a Fire last year.

        Reply

        • Hi Bob,

          Do you have a link to get me started? All I found was a Lessons Learned for a non-fatal entrapment on the Horseshoe 2 Fire.

          Thanks!

          Reply

          • Not sure but post what you found, may be relevant to this discussion.
            Sounds like the Horseshoe 2 had some problems.

            Hope fully RTS will get back on and be able to provide more.

            It would most likely be in the Fire records if you can find them.
            May be something in the turn down protocol by fire name.

            Reply

            • I’ll try again, I tried three times yesterday and the post failed. Ok that was fourth time and still no joy…er..luck. I’ll try again without the http. Cut and paste, I’m afraid! Oops, try number five. I’ve now added spaces at certain places. You’ll have to remove the spaces to use the link.

              http://www.wildfirelessons. net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.as hx?DocumentFileKey=f6ffb657-bde4-4b5ao-b1fe-04af4c0cb594&forceDialog=0

              You say Fire Recordes. Where are those ?

              Reply

              • Muzzy… still no joy on that link.

                I took out the space before ‘net’ and the one between ‘as hx’ but still only get a ‘404 Document Not Found’ back from the ‘Lessons Learned’ site.

                Reply

                • Just google search Horseshoe 2 fire and look for a result at the lessons learned center. For some reason my attempts at pasting the link here are not working.

                  At the lesson learned site there is:

                  Safety Alert

                  Entrapment Review

                  Google Earth fly around

                  Happy reading.

                  Woodsman

                  Reply

                  • I suppose I should amend my post to clarify that there was no “Happy reading” section of the documents on the Horseshoe 2 fire at the Lessons Learned Center that I could find………..other than the fact that no one freakin’ died…..I guess THAT is something to be happy about.

                    Woodsman

                    Reply

                  • Weird about the link. I found a more direct link and still lost the post. Spooky…

                    Anyhow, according to Mike Dudley, if you wait until conditions are within safe parameters, you would never work another fire in Arizona:

                    https://m.youtube.com/watch?
                    v=iWm3myJdQO4

                    I didn’t note the time, but it was after he played the video.

                    Reply

            • Bob,

              you said:

              “Horseshoe #2 seems to have had a burn over with no injuries”

              Sure did. There WAS an injury though. One of the 2 lookouts from the type 2 IA crew needed stitches on his hand after he made forcible entry (into the cabin they rode out the burnover inside) by punching the window out with no gloves on.

              The review complemented the lookouts on their structural training and sticking together.

              Red Flag day shift burnout! Yeehaw!!! Forces apparently decided burnout at the peak of burning conditions JUST HAD to be done (started at 1230 hrs) because…………well, because of……….wait for it…………..

              STRUCTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              Here is their justification:

              “Division resources recognize that this burnout operation is critical to holding the fire on the north side of Turkey Creek and protecting many of the structures located in the canyon”

              “If no action is taken, the fire — influenced by wind and terrain — will cross to the south side of the drainage — potentially destroying ranch homes, cabins, and out buildings.”
              .
              AND, here’s the forecast!

              “On June 7 —the day of the entrapment—the official incident forecast from the Incident Meteorologist called for ridge top winds to be from the southwest with sustained speeds of 10 to 15 mph and gusts between 25 and 30 mph. Slope winds were forecasted to be up-valley in the afternoon with gusts between 25 and 30 mph. Along with these winds, hot and dry conditions were also forecast. At the ridge tops, the forecast called for minimum relative humidity between 10 and 15 percent, with temperatures in the 70s.”

              Hey Bob, you want to guess how long after ignition started that it got away from them? Tell everyone for me.

              What the fuck is going on in R-3?

              Woodsman

              Reply

              • And some one would wonder why 2 or maybe actually 4 HS Superintendents refused to do the assignment, WTF
                I spent a few years learning from some of the best on a Back Firing team in Southern California we would never have recommended a burn out or back fire in those conditions even at NIGHT.

                Hay Holly go read this and tell me Crews actually burn out down hill in the middle of the day with winds at 10 to 15 and gusts to 25. The fucking IC and his team thought it was a good plan. FUCK ME—Marsh went and started it Gung ho We be the best????????????????????????????

                Reply

                • Bob,

                  No, no, no……..it was gusting OVER 30 observed on the ground!

                  Now, answer my question: will you let the audience know how long it would take to ‘lose it’ after ignition in these conditions? You know. I know. Tell everyone else who may or may not know. Now’s your chance to shine.

                  Must save the stone houses!!

                  sidenote: when I think you’re wrong, I’m going to turn up the heat. When I agree with you, I’m going to say so. Equal opportunity.

                  Woodsman

                  Reply

                  • Woodsman,

                    As you well know, those types of failed and flawed burnouts occur in every Region every year because of really incompetent WFF supervisors. It’s NOT just a R-3 thing.

                    Reply

                    • RTS,

                      Fair enough. It’s just that I’ve worked with the SW teams and, well, I suppose you are correct. There is incompetence in more places than one.

                      Woodsman

                    • Woodsman,

                      On the 2012 Halstead Fire (Salmon NF) in ID with managed by a Type I IMT and NIMO (HUGE WATCHOUT) they blatantly blew it on burning out, TWICE.

                      After a week each time of heavy metal indirect line construction in mixed conifer fuels, for some reason ‘they’ determined it was ‘too soon’ and ‘too much ground’ and one moron actually said ‘it’s gonna snow.’

                      Are you kidding me? In July? WTF?

                      Obviously, the fire took off and blew through and over the indirect lines both times.

                      This are fairly common responses (‘too soon’ and ‘too much ground’) by many IMT’s except the ‘it’s gonna snow’ thing. That guy was a moron.

                    • RTS,

                      I’m with you on the NIMO watchout 100%. I’ve seen it many times with my own eyes,

                      Woodsman

  31. has any of you on IM actually reached out to these men that the ADOSH and SAIT did not—

    has anyone ever went direct and asked them the questions-

    They are currently still in the system?

    is it an area I can ask for the foia for?

    Air to ground and this mysterious notebook that exists is what I want to know more about—

    Reply

  32. More ‘gems’ about how ‘clueless’ Thomas French and John Burfiend were while they were functioning as both ‘Lead Plane’ AND ‘Air Attack’ during the time when the deployment took place…

    From near the end of the SAIT interview with ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ).

    NOTE: This is one of those sections where it impossible to tell WHO is actually being quoted from this SAIT interview. Could be either Thomas French OR John Burfiend, or even some combination of BOTH of them…

    ———————————————————————–
    Never saw them ( Granite Mountain ) earlier. I didn’t know they were there. Air attack didn’t tell me there were resources in the area. I never got divisions from the briefing. Didn’t know there were divisions. Thought it was a Type 3 incident. I didn’t recognize Todd’s voice. I didn’t know anybody was taking any action on the fire.
    ———————————————————————–

    Never say them ( Granite Mountain ) earlier.

    More proof that ‘Bravo 33’ really never did ‘fly down’ and get a ‘visual’ on Granite Mountain to verify they were ‘in the safe black’… as OPS1 Todd Abel told ADOSH he told them to do… and Abel says they came back and said Granite Mountain WAS ‘in the safe black’.

    Thought it was a Type 3 incident.

    Thomas French and John Burfiend didn’t even know what frickin’ LEVEL of incident they were working that day.

    Reply

    • As I remember a type 2 short team is still a type 3 incident. Size of the fire under 1000 Ac. the morning of the 30th would be another indicator.

      Call a full type 2 team in and when they take over it goes to Type 2.

      Reply

        • You have to love the ‘mental gymnastics’… AND the continuing ability to miss the actual point of a particular posting.

          From a certain perspective… it’s actually quite impressive.

          Must have missed all the rest… such as…

          – “I didn’t know they ( Granite Mountain ) were there.””
          – “Air attack ( Collins ) didn’t tell me there were resources in the area.”
          – “I never got divisions from the briefing.”
          – “Didn’t know there WERE divisions.”
          – “I didn’t know ANYBODY was taking ANY action on the fire.”
          – etc… etc…

          Reply

    • They weren’t the only ones:

      Interviews with Paul Musser OSC and Todd Abel OSC

      7/6/13

      • Paul Musser and Todd Abel were first called for Type 3 (unclear as type 3 or type 2 short team) assignment on evening of June 29, (6 acres at call time)

      From the SAIT interviews

      Reply

      • And from their ADOSH interviews ( no confusion at all, really )…

        From Planning OPS2 Paul Musser’s ADOSH interview on August 16, 2013…
        ————————————————————————-
        74 A: Okay, uh, on the 29th I was called by Jim Downey – nah I can’t remember
        75 whether Jim called me or whether it was dispatched first. But anyhow around
        76 1800 or thereabouts and af- asked me if I’d take a type 3 IC assignment for a
        77 five acre fire on top of the ridge at Yarnell. And so they said it was for the
        78 next morning. I accepted the assignment. And said as soon as driving
        79 regulations allowed me, I would start in the morning. Uh, I later received a
        80 text that the fire was now 100 plus acres. Uh, then talked to Roy shortly after
        81 that and said that we didn’t need me as a type 3 IC, what we needed was the
        82 team. It was 100 acres this time we – we needed to deploy the entire team. I
        83 then went to bed. Roy and Glenn dealt with that part of it. Uh, got up, oh 4:00,
        84 4:30 somewhere around there. Left Flagstaff a little before 5:00, arrived in
        85 Yarnell right around 7 o’clock.
        ————————————————————————-

        NOTE: When ‘Roy Hall’ told Musser they needed ‘the team’… he is talking about the Arizona State Forestry ‘Type 2’ team that Musser was already normally a member of. The same ‘State Type 2 team’ that Todd Abel was referring to in HIS own ADOSH interview…

        From Field OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…
        ————————————————————————-
        114 A: Uh, just to make sure I’m clear on this, the – the team – when I got an order
        115 from this assignment, it wasn’t on the team I’m normally on. That was them
        116 calling me saying hey the State type 2 team is taking the fire in Yarnell, we
        117 need some help, we need – we need – can you go as a Division Supervisor
        118 there.
        119
        120 Q1: Got it.
        121
        122 Q: Who was it who called you?
        123
        124 A: Uh, the Arizona, uh, Dispatch Center.
        ————————————————————————-

        Reply

        • Notice ( above ) that when Paul Musser says he talked with Roy Hall on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013… Roy Hall just told Musser he didn’t need for a ‘Type 3’… he needed him to show up in his normal capacity as a member of the full ‘State Type 2’ team…

          …and Roy Hall said NOTHING to Musser about it going to be a SHORT version of that regular ‘State Type 2’ team.

          Musser told ADOSH Roy Hall told him ( on the phone )…

          “…we needed to deploy the ENTIRE ( Type 2 ) team.”

          Reply

    • Red herring…

      It does not matter the class of the fire. A Hotshot on a type 4 fire does not do his work differently than if he is on a 1,2 or 3…

      Neither does AA, Dozer Boss, Division Supervisor, etc etc etc

      Reply

      • True It is the same old grind Cut Line Cut Line and do it till you have line around the fire. I like the old days a fire team was assigned and they fought it till it was controlled.

        Reply

      • The confusion over what type of incident it was speaks to the general level of disarray among overhead on this fire. No plan, AA assigning HS crews to DIVS A, DIVS Z just walks away. Tankers putting out GM’s burnouts. BR knocking around for a while, then hanging out at the buggies until the evacuation, no one at IC to clone radios, safety officers who don’t even know there’s a crew on the south end of the fire, etc.

        Reply

      • Reply to Rocksteady post on May 31, 2016 at 2:24 pm

        >> Rocksteady said…
        >>
        >> Red herring…
        >>
        >> It does not matter the class of the fire.
        >> A Hotshot on a type 4 fire does not do his work
        >> differently than if he is on a 1,2 or 3…
        >>
        >> Neither does AA, Dozer Boss, Division Supervisor, etc etc etc

        As with Bob Powers above… you seem to have totally missed the point of the particular posting you are now commenting on.

        It wasn’t JUST that Thomas French and John Burfiend testified to the SAIT investigators that they didn’t even know what fucking level of ‘Incident’ they were working on… they basically didn’t know JACK SHIT about ANYTHING that was ( or wasn’t ) happening on the ground… or who was below them… or that there were any ‘crews’ ( or ANYONE ) ‘down there’ even (quote) “taking any action on the fire”.

        And now you are saying that never matters?… For not only Air Attacks, but it’s okay for Division Supervisors and Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crews and others to be just as equally fucking CLUELESS as Thomas French and John Burfiend told the SAIT investigators THEY were… that fatal day?

        Please say YES.

        Then we can start a whole new discussion about how absolutely totally FUCKED UP the entire current approach to Wildland Firefighting REALLY is.

        Soup to nuts.

        Reply

        • So what the fuck does the fire classification have to do with people doing their jobs as assigned??

          Stupid response WTKTT

          Reply

          • RS,

            I can’t say it better than Muzzy did up above when you & Bob picked example from the list to dissect.

            “The confusion over what type of incident it was speaks to the general level of disarray among overhead on this fire. No plan, AA assigning HS crews to DIVS A, DIVS Z just walks away. Tankers putting out GM’s burnouts. BR knocking around for a while, then hanging out at the buggies until the evacuation, no one at IC to clone radios, safety officers who don’t even know there’s a crew on the south end of the fire, etc.”

            Is it your position that all of WTKTT’s examples are no big deal and we just roll with it? We don’t need to know any of those things to do our job?

            Woodsman

            Reply

          • Again… you missed your mark ( and now the point of TWO separate posts ).

            The ‘original’ post wasn’t JUST about the fact that Thomas French and John Burfiend didn’t even know what ‘Level’ of Incident they were actually working. That was just ONE of the things they admitted to the SAIT Investigators that they were totally fucking ‘clueless’ about… in Yarnell… on June 30, 2013.

            Reply

            • I may have misinterpreted the word clueless.

              Did you mean they are idiots or were not properly briefed?

              I took it as idiots

              Reply

              • Reply to Rocksteady post on
                June 1, 2016 at 10:40 am

                >> Rocksteady said…
                >>
                >> I may have misinterpreted the word clueless.
                >>
                >> Did you mean they are idiots or were not properly briefed?
                >>
                >> I took it as idiots

                I don’t know either of them personally, so it’s hard to say about ‘option 1’… but ‘option 2’ was definitely ‘in play’.

                Of course… it might have been a combination of BOTH ‘options’… dunno.

                Bottom line is that “all was not well” with the general Air Support that day… unless you want to confirm what I was asking above…

                …that the general level of total fucking ‘cluelessness’ being admitted to the SAIT investigators by the members of the Air Attack that was ‘in charge’ of the fire at the time 19 men were burned to death on the ground is actually NORMAL.

                That the ‘flyboys’ are ALWAYS that fucking ‘clueless’?
                Nothing to see there. Move along?

                Reply

                • Air Attack is ad a disadvantage on most fires, they are generally located at an airport but may not be in the same town as the IAP, so they are not in on the Ops, Planning or Briefing meetings.

                  When they do arrive overhead, someone should be glueing them into what the scenario, objectives, priorities, as well as call signs for each Division.

                  I suspect that having 2 OPS on this fire may have caused someone to drop the ball of an ar channel briefing.

                  Reply

                  • Normally Dispatch will Fax a plan to the Air Base.
                    No plan Contact IC when over Fire get briefed.
                    It was a type 3 on the 29th it was still a type 3 on the morning of the 30. Were they Clueless I think not.
                    but what difference did it make 3 or 2 there was not many overhead or Divisions (one) at morning briefing. The size was barely a on division fire.

                    .

                    Reply

                    • The Yarnell Hill fire was never a Type 3 fire. They were wrong. Hey, it’s happens.

                      Woodsman

        • Back up a minuet and remember the morning briffing.

          NO MAPS
          NO SHIFT PLANS
          NO LIST OF RESOURSES OR OVERHEAD
          NO BODY KNEW WHAT WAS ASSIGNED

          WE NEVER SAID IT DOSE NOT MATTER THE TYPE OR SIZE DOSE NOT MATTER THE WORK ON THE GROUND AND THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND THE PLANS FOR THE SHIFT MATTER.

          You are putting something down that was never said.

          You have decided to totally Bash Wild land Fire Fighting over a small amount of information on this fire. There are way more fires than what we have discussed here that are professionally handled. Less than 5 % a screwed up mostly in the first 48 hours.

          Reply

          • Bob,

            I don’t think WTKTT has just decided to bash this fire for no good reason. You know damn well it’s a target rich environment here. There are many, many failures in management all over the YH fire. You have stated many yourself.

            In addition to the poor commo, no written plan, etc, there is evidence of extreme disconnect between aerial & ground forces. WTKTT provided testimony from the record that shows the level of “fucking scary shit’ kind of WTF out there from just one aerial resource. All of these examples rounded up would probably fill a book.

            Freelancing and total lack of communication, planning, coordination………on and on………

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • Absolutely Been there on occasion and we just pulled up communicated amongst our self’s and did our job Safely.

              The rest worked its self out. Cut line, Cut Line Cut Line.

              REFUSE STUPID UNSAFE ORDERS OR BACK OFF INTO SZ AND SIT IT OUT.

              Reply

              • Bob,

                We are in agreement on everything you just said. Many of the resources didn’t “work itself out” at Yarnell HIll and I want to know everything that directly and indirectly caused that to happen. What you just said is absolutely what SHOULD have happened but unfortunately, it DID NOT.

                Thanks

                Woodsman

                Reply

  33. Reply to Marti Reed post on May 30, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Here’s what bugs me in this at this point. French was just the “Lead Plane Pilot.”
    >> He wasn’t actually “in charge” of anything.

    Tell that to Thomas French.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> His superiors were AA Collins and (John) Burfiend.
    >> His job was to move planes and helicopters around.
    >> His job wasn’t to do the strategizing.

    Again… tell that to French ( and listen again to the Air-To-Air channel recordings ).
    He ( French ) was, most certainly, doing a lot of the ‘strategizing’ after Collins left, whether he was SUPPOSED to be doing that, or not.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> The actual strategizing job and authority regarding this shift went from Collins
    >> to Burfiend, not to French, unless I’m missing something.

    Air Attack Rory Collins had to leave Yarnell at 3:58 PM because his pilot was ‘timing out’.

    At NO TIME did Collins specifically say whether French or Burfiend should be the one ‘replacing’ him. All he said ( to BOTH of them ) was “I have to leave. Are YOU GUYS going to be okay?”.

    Here is EXACTLY how that “I’m gonna have to leave” conversation went between Air Attack Rory Collins and pilot Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’, over the Air-To-Air channel…

    It happened at 3:51:46 PM, starting with that agreement between French and Collins about what the new ‘priority’ should be from that moment on ( Yarnell, and not the NORTH side )… with French getting Collins’ permission to just use ONE MORE SEAT that was already ‘on scene’ to just ‘finish up’ that Miner’s Camp Road retardant line, and then start using the inbound VLATS on the YARNELL side of the fire…

    —————————————————————————————
    +3:48 ( 1551:46 / 3:51:46 PM )
    (B33 – French): Hey… do ya want us to finish up this… uh… this spot project with the SEAT comin’ on scene and… uh… then… move over to… uh… Yarnell? I’m not sure what we can do with a SEAT anyway over there?

    +3:56 ( 1551:54 / 3:51:54 PM )
    (AA – Collins): Yea… copy that… I’m thinkin’ VLAT on the other side when he gets in.
    Yea. That’d be great.

    +4:02 ( 1552:00 / 3:52:00 PM )
    (B33 – French): Okay. Copy that. Uh… Kilo Alpha… gotcha out of the dip. You’re cleared out and… uh… break Air Attack… we will… uh… we will complete that project… uh… there with the spots.

    +4:12 ( 1552:10 / 3:52:10 PM )
    (AA – Collins): Sounds good… and just so you’ll know… I’ve got about 10 minutes left uh… for my pilot to time out. Uh… we gotta head back and I don’t have a relief… are you gonna be okay?

    +4:22 ( 1552:20 / 3:52:20 PM )
    (B33 – French): That’s affirmative… we will.. ah… we are… uh… we will take the fire.My right seater’s been… uh.. copying everything and… uh… we will pass that on to Bravo three as well.

    +4:31 ( 1552:29 / 3:52:29 PM )
    (AA – Collins): Excellent man… and I’ll letcha know when I’m out.

    +4:35 ( 1552:33 / 3:52:33 PM )
    (B33 – French): You got it.
    —————————————————————————————

    So all Thomas French tells Collins is “WE will take the fire” ( BOTH me and John ).

    But while there was never any specific ‘Delegation of Authority’ with regards to ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities… it’s obvious from the recordings that the way Thomas French and John Burfiend were going to ‘split’ these duties between them was simply who is monitoring which radio channel.

    Thomas French would take responsibility for EVERYTHING on the Air-To-Air channel, and NOTHING happening over the Air-To-Ground channel.

    John Burfiend would take responsibility for EVERYTHING on the Air-To-Ground channel, and would, in fact, be the one who should ‘respond’ to calls to “Air Attack” over that Air-To-Ground channel.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> It was Burfiend’s job to map out the changed strategy, unless I’m
    >> missing something. And, unless I’m missing something, that process
    >> of changing the strategy would have had to have been in coordination
    >> with people on the ground, i.e. would have been communicated
    >> over Air 2 Ground, not Air 2 Air.
    >>
    >> Am I missing something????

    Well… regardless of the fact that French and Burfiend just decided to ‘split’ the Air Attack duties by just deciding who would listen to which radio channel… there actually IS a piece of evidence which establishes that after Rory Collins left, Thomas French DID consider his right-seater ( John Burfiend ) to be the ‘Air Attack’.

    That piece of evidence ONLY appears for a brief moment in the SAIT’s interview notes from their ‘Bravo 33’ interview…

    NOTE: ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview French or Burfiend.

    From the SAIT Investigation Interview Notes with ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend )…
    ——————————————————————————
    We had been there about 1 ½ hours when air attack on the scene told us he had to leave. (1700 NM time). It was a strange change out. He just said “you have the fire, I’m leaving”…
    Tom said “hey dude, you are the air attack”. He also stated that his relief pilot was unable to make it and his pilot timed out. He had to leave. We decided we were going to go here (pointed to Div Z) and go direct. Took the single SEAT.
    ——————————————————————————

    These interview notes are an absolute mess as far as knowing WHO ( French or Burfiend ) is actually being ‘quoted’ at any given time in the notes themselves… but there ARE a few places where a ‘name’ is used and it’s easy to tell whether it was John Burfiend or Thomas French being ‘quoted’.

    The following is ONE of those ‘identifiable’ quotes…

    Tom said “hey dude, you are the air attack”

    There is no other way to read that other than, apparently, at some time right around when Rory Collins departed Yarnell ( at 3:58 PM ), Tom ( Thomas French ) is the one who turned to John Burfiend and said “Hey dude, YOU are the Air Attack”.

    But notice something else very, very ODD about the TIME REFERENCES in just this one section of the ‘Bravo 33’ interview.

    The way it is written… they are making it sound like the moment that Rory Collins left the fire ( at 3:58 PM ), and Thomas French turned to John Burfiend and said “Hey dude, YOU are the Air Attack”… that they ( French and Burfiend ) immediately decided (quote)…

    “We decided we were going to go here ( pointed to Div Z – Yarnell / Glen Ilah ) and go direct”.

    That is NOT what happened. Not then ( 3:58 PM ), anyway.

    All of sudden… even these ‘interview notes’ with French and Burfiend are ‘leaving out’ the entire 40 ( FORTY ) MINUTES between the time Rory Collins left the fire and when ‘Bravo 33’ finally DID turn its attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.

    ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) STAYED on the NORTH side of the fire, continuing to make drops in the ( already evacuated ) Miner’s Camp and Model Creek Road area(s) until 4:25 PM… even though it had now been at least 35 minutes since Air Attack Rory Collins had TOLD them to shift their focus to the OTHER side of the fire… and at least 30 minutes since SPGS1 Gary Cordes had asked ‘Air Support’ ( via Todd Abel ) to PLEASE start “Dropping at will” immediately near Yarnell to “try and save what you can while there is still time”.

    So that ‘SECTION’ of SAIT Interview notes really should have looked like this…

    From the SAIT Investigation Interview Notes with ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend )…
    ——————————————————————————
    We had been there about 1 ½ hours when air attack on the scene told us he had to leave. (1700 NM time). It was a strange change out. He just said “you have the fire, I’m leaving”…
    Tom said “hey dude, you are the air attack”. He also stated that his relief pilot was unable to make it and his pilot timed out. He had to leave.
    ——————————————————————————

    40 ( FORTY MINUTES GO BY WHILE ‘BRAVO 33’ JUST REMAINS ON
    THE NORTH SIDE OF THE FIRE

    Then… ( at 4:25 PM )…

    ——————————————————————————
    We decided we were going to go here (pointed to Div Z) and go direct. Took the single SEAT.
    ——————————————————————————

    So while there is some ‘proof’ ( SAIT interview notes ) that Thomas French actually did consider John Burfiend to be the ‘Air Attack’ following Rory Collins’ sudden departure at 3:58 PM… we still do NOT KNOW exactly what ‘understanding’ French and Burfiend had for how they were going to handle both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ duties.

    The only thing that is obvious ( in the subsequent recordings ) is that Thomas French was not TOTALLY in charge of ALL airplanes, and anything to do with the Air-To-Air radio traffic… and John Burfiend was totally in charge of just the Air-To-Ground channel.

    Who was actually ‘CALLING THE SHOTS’ about what they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be doing with regards to the overall ‘Air Support Plan’ for the next hour ( until even they left Yarnell )… we still don’t know.

    All we know is that when Rory Collins left the fire… he thought ‘Bravo 33’ was going to just use the ONE remaining SEAT that was already ‘on scene’ to make ONE MORE DROP on the NORTH side of the fire… and then ‘Bravo 33’ was going to immediately change the ‘Air Support’ priorities to the YARNELL side of the fire… just like he TOLD them to at 3:50 PM and just like ( supposedly ) the overall Ground Operations Supervisor ( Abel ) had REQUESTED circa 3:50 PM…

    …and then it didn’t happen. Not for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.

    Reply

    • Whoops. Typo above. I typed ‘not’ where I should have type ‘now’.

      Paragraph above should have read like this…

      The only thing that is obvious ( in the subsequent recordings ) is that Thomas French was NOW TOTALLY in charge of ALL airplanes, and anything to do with the Air-To-Air radio traffic… and John Burfiend was totally in charge of just the Air-To-Ground channel.

      Reply

      • I completely understand what you are saying.

        My problem with that is that, as far as I understand it (from my un-enlightened position as a simple citizen sitting here in my kitchen participating in this via my iMac), that’s not how it’s supposed to work. Although, Google-searching “Air Support Module” is not leading me to anything that describes how an “Air Support Module” is supposed to work. So maybe I’m off-base and we need someone with actual experience to weigh in on this

        My understanding (from I’m not sure where I got it but I got it from somewhere) is that an “Air Support Module” has a person who is qualified to function as an “Air Attack” and a person who is qualified to function as a “Lead Plane Pilot.” And that that is what Bravo 33 was, essentially. My understanding is that the “Lead Plane Pilot” is not in charge of determining the strategy. My understanding is that the person who is qualified to function as an “Air Attack” is the person in charge of determining the strategy.

        My understanding is that Bravo 33 went to Yarnell as an “Air Support Module,” capable of serving in that function, and that when they arrived, there was already an Air Attack. So French was then taking his orders from Air Attack Rory Collins, and not Burfiend AT THAT TIME. I.e. Bravo 33 was, AT THAT TIME, serving as a Lead Plane (and not as an Air Support Module). So AT THAT TIME French, the pilot, was communicating with, and taking orders from, Air Attack Rory Collins, while Burfiend was taking notes in order to prepare to serve as Air Attack if he had to.

        None of this puts French “in charge” of anything, other than leading the aerial pilots through the tactics designed to serve the strategy that Air Attack is planning and ordering.

        And, THEN, when THAT Air Attack Rory Collins left, that’s when Bravo 33 started serving as an “Air Support Module,” not just a Lead Plane.

        Thus, my understanding is that when French told Burfiend that he was “now Air Attack,” he was not “designating” Burfiend (from a position of authority over Burfiend) to be “Air Attack.” He was just saying to Burfiend, something along the lines of “hey, Burfiend, I guess you are now Air Attack because Rory Collins is leaving.”

        So that, at that point in time, Burfiend was not just a guy communicating over Air 2 Ground, but the guy IN CHARGE of the strategy, who would then, henceforth, tell French what that strategy was. And French was, from that moment on, working for Burfiend, leading the pilots through the tactics designed to serve Burfiend’s strategies.

        So then, henceforth, Burfiend would be the one DETERMINING whether to keep doing what they were doing (which apparently was the case for that 40 minutes), or to stop doing that and, instead, head south to Yarnell and start working there, (which they didn’t).

        So the issue I am having with you is not about what they did (I don’t have any issue with you regarding that).

        It’s about who had the AUTHORITY to have been CALLING THE SHOTS regarding that (regardless of how it sounds on the video). I think that person was Burfiend and not French. That’s my disagreement with you.

        Aaaaaaaaaand, that is why I think we need the Air 2 Ground recording in order to flesh this out, which I am 99.999999 % sure exists somewhere.

        Peace?

        Reply

        • PS. I have no idea whatsoever what was, exactly, the intepersonal “human factors” relationship between French and Burfiend.

          Maybe there is a possibility that was in play.

          Regardless, I think I have relatively correctly described how this is all designed to work and how I think, essentially, it was generally working.

          YMMV

          Reply

          • The Problem—
            One Plane functioning with two different responsibilities.
            The Pilot in the Left seat was and continued to be the Lead Plane Pilot.
            The person in the left seat became the Air Attack Supervisor.

            This is not a common occurrence except in Initial Attack.
            Normally only one person in the Cock Pit the Lead plane Pilot.

            With this fire and a lot of Ground to air The AA was working that or requests for retardant. Location Identification.

            This was one plane doing two jobs. The AA in a separate Plane would have been able to circle out of the way and check on things like GM
            and Fire movement.

            The Lead plane was working with Air Tankers to drop Retardant making checks for runs and LEADING THE AIRTANKERS THROUGH THE FLIGHT PATTEREN TO TARGET.

            So you have two people in one plane discussing drop requests and making decisions. Each were handling two seperiate Channels.

            The lead plane was not in a position to circle the fire and also put Tankers on drops. That may explain some of the problems with getting to the next priority. A separate plane with AA would be able to see and check new problems while the Lead Plane was finishing its Tanker Runs.
            Also change Priorities to different locations.

            Bottom line is the one plane which was FIRST the Lead plane had that Higher responsibility. With no Air Tankers in the Air or making runs they would have time to check other locations on the Fire.

            I believe this may have caused a lot of the delay. Also there were Helicopters working near Yarnell dropping Water this may have also delayed any retardant Air craft from moving to that area. Just another consideration.

            The whole system was designed to work with separate planes. It will and did here bog down with one plane. All of this is no more than information that may explain the time lapse and what they could do.

            Another check point is who was setting priorities or requests on the Ground.
            Normally OPS tells AA what and where they want drops. They also will designate a DIVS or Other Overhead on specific portions of line with authority to request drops.

            That’s Normal this fire was never NORMAL.

            Reply

  34. OK before I stomp off in frustration and get back to Daily Kos insanity, moving (still…..) and my photography, I’m going to bring this up to the top because I think it got buried and I want people to be aware of it.

    It was during the discussion of who might have been monitoring what was going on regarding Granite Mountain.

    ——————————————————————–

    Marti Reed says
    MAY 24, 2016 AT 3:54 AM

    Seen in the video captured at 4:05 PM, at the observation spot on Hiway 89, looking southwest toward “the ridge”, from left to right:

    Paul Musser’s blue truck

    Yavapai County Fire Department Battalion Chief Cougan Carothers

    Safety Officer (with the GM intracrew frequency on his radio which he had previously cloned off of Darrell Willis’ radio) Tony Sciacca.

    Structure Protection Group Supervisor Yavapai County Fire Department Battalion Chief Gary Cordes in his truck (who later ordered his Strike Team Leader Trainee to send “a couple of engines to Boulder Springs Ranch” to pick up Granite Mountain)

    And, most likely (since they were having their meeting there), Field OPS Paul Musser sitting next to Gary Cordes in Gary’s truck.

    But, of course, nobody knew what was happening. Nope, not at all.

    Reply

    ———————————————————————————-

    Marti Reed says
    MAY 24, 2016 AT 4:33 AM

    Well, I have to throw this in before I go back to bed, since probably not everybody reading here has followed the long and winding trail of conversations related to the discovery of the “Hail Mary Plan” which took FOREVER to discover.

    Because CONTEXT MATTERS, as it relates to the video.

    This video is captured about 15 minutes or so after Structure Group Supervisor CYFD Battalion Chief Gary Cordes ordered Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to (after obtaining the ATV he obtained from the Yarnell Fire Department) go into Glen Ilah and (with one other) “scout a possible dozer line” (my quotes are probably not exact because I’m doing this off the top of my head) from, apparently, approximately where the dozer was staged through a wash toward the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    So, Gary Cordes most likely had this inside his head as he was sitting there in his truck, mostly likely right next to Field OPS Paul Musser (who had previously asked, about 20 minutes or so earlier, if — according to his ADOSH interview, at least — if GMHS were “available” and they had — according to the same interview — said they were still “committed to the ridge”).

    OK. I’m REALLY going back to bed now.

    Reply

    —————————————————————

    I’m trying to keep this in mind during the current discussion regarding Bravo 33 and “We’ll send Air Support ASAP” and all the other whatevers.

    Reply

    • And PS.

      Even though it buried my post, I REALLY appreciate WTKTT bringing forth and explicating the “damn emails.”

      Reply

      • We still haven’t even really scratched the surface of what’s in those emails.

        I’ll be getting back to those when things ‘quiet down’ some ( unless someone else wants to press ahead before I get the chance ).

        Reply

          • Marti—
            On the Dozer there is a huge difference between Staged and The Parking Place of the Low Boy. Which the Dozer returned to.
            Did he load and get the hell out of there or did he ride out the fire there?????

            I think he left and that is why they lost tract of him.
            Dose not take long to walk the Dozer on to the Low boy lift ramps and moved.

            No one sits out a burn over if they have other options. The Dozer had options and time. He had no supervisor or Radio to tell Supervisor—
            CORY BELL——

            Reply

            • Bob,

              You said:

              “The Dozer had options and time. He had no supervisor or Radio to tell Supervisor—
              CORY BELL——”

              The BR IHC unit logs state that they gave the dozer operator one of their spare radios. I believe initially Cordes? was acting as a dozer boss before the task was handed over to a member of BR, Cory Ball. So I believe the dozer operator (Morin) had a radio & a supervisor at Yarnell Hill.

              Woodsman

              Reply

              • That’s right but Cory Bell took it when they headed back to the Low Boy and he headed to get a 4 wheeler. The dozer Operator then had no Radio. He was a county Road equipment not Fire Equipment. He had no Fire Radio in the Dozer and I do not think the Low Boy had one either. Reason he went off Radar when he gave back the BR radio No one could contact him.

                Reply

                • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                  May 31, 2016 at 11:48 am

                  >> Bob Powers said…
                  >>
                  >> The dozer Operator then had no Radio.
                  >> No one could contact him.

                  Unless someone gave him ANOTHER one.

                  Perfectly possible.

                  From Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s TYPED Unit Log…

                  “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line
                  to southwest of Yarnell.

                  “southwest of Yarnell” means the WEST end of Glen Ilah… and near the Boulder Springs Ranch.

                  “Structure group one” means ( of course ) Gary Cordes.

                  We still don’t know who the “one other” is that Cory Ball specifically mentions receiving the same ‘assignment’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

                  It could have easliy been Paul Morin himself.

                  If that ‘directive’ from Cordes happened WHILE Cory Ball was riding the dozer back to the staging area… and the dozer ( Operator = Paul Morin ) was now also supposed to be involved in this “plan”… then Cory Ball could have easily given Paul Morin ANOTHER handheld radio ( from the Blue Ridge Chase Truck ) as soon as they arrived back at the loboy and Chase truck staging area.

                  We still DO NOT KNOW what really happened with Paul Morin and the dozer.

                  Reply

                  • Its a pretty solid fact he did not burn up out there and was found later parked at the County Road department
                    Low Boy and Dozer loaded. We know that for sure.

                    They went back to the Low Boy Parking area it was not a staging area it was where the Dozer unloaded.

                    Why would Ball take the Radio if he expected to be working with the Dozer again?????

                    All my back ground says you park the dozer while you scout possible line. especially when you may or may not move to a new site.

                    Bell never could scout the site because it was already to late by the time he got the 4wheeler..

                    Reply

                    • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 1:39 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> Its a pretty solid fact he did not
                      >> burn up out there

                      Nobody ever said he did ( unless there was another body removed secretly and a 20th death totally covered up ).

                      >> and was found later parked at the
                      >> County Road department Low Boy
                      >> and Dozer loaded.

                      ‘Found’… by WHO? WHEN?

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> We know that for sure.

                      We do? Refresh my memory, then.

                      WHERE are you getting the information that supports the carte-blanche statements you are now making?

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> They went back to the Low Boy
                      >> Parking area it was not a staging
                      >> area it was where the Dozer unloaded.

                      Semantics. If Paul Morin was told to ‘stay there’ while Cory Ball delivered the BR Chase Truck over to the RHR and then proceeded to borrow that ATV so he could get BACK out there… then Paul Morin was ‘staging’ there.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> Why would Ball take the Radio
                      >> if he expected to be working
                      >> with the Dozer again?????

                      Maybe he didn’t take it… because he really WAS expecting to return with the ATV and ‘scout dozer line to the southwest of Yarnell’… exactly as Gary Cordes had TOLD him to do.

                      I repeat: We still DO NOT KNOW the ‘full story’ with regards to Paul Morin and the dozer.

                      2 investigations and now 3 published books later… and we still DO NOT KNOW if he even had to ride out the fire out there in that large clearing at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita… or WHY he mysteriously ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was supposed to be ‘looking for’ after the deployment.

                    • WTKTT you are beginning to sound like another book with out real facts.

                      They quit looking for the Tractor that night when they found it on the County Compound.

                      Get back to reality man. They had no search after dark for the Tractor. The crew became the only missing.

                      The record says Cory took the Radio when he left the cat It was BR’s Radio. Its in the BR notes.

                      My conclusion shift over. He loaded and left rather than get his equipment Burned.

                      I would suggest that to be a plausible Conclusion.

                    • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 9:19 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> WTKTT you are beginning to sound like
                      >> another book with out real facts.
                      >>
                      >> They quit looking for the Tractor that
                      >> night hen they found it on the County
                      >> Compound.
                      >>
                      >> The record says Cory took the Radio
                      >> when he left the cat Its in the BR notes.

                      You’ve gone absolutely ‘delusional’ on us now, Bob.

                      Sorry… in a month that started with the TRUTH about the Yarnell Fire taking a huge beating… I’m not gonna let you ‘close out the month’ with this kind of absolute BULLSHIT.

                      “It ain’t what he doesn’t known that’ll scare ya… it’s what he knows fer sure that just ain’t so.”
                      Mark Twain

                      See a longer reply above ( with the PROOF that you are full of shit on this one )…

                      http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-337892

              • Paul Morin

                HASHTAG moment

                maybe when “retired age” Paul George Morin or someone who knows the Prescott Valley Resident googles the name it will redirect them to this area and he/they will read direct your questions and comments and ANSWER them. He is very important to my inquiries 6-30-13 for people who lost their homes-

                hashtag also- his in recent years deceased mother-in-law had a passion- taking an interest in everyone and everything just like me so maybe he will in regards to 6-30-13—

                or if any of you are brazen enough—I am not with that person but I have on others- google his public number and call him direct-

                Paul Morin’s mother Clarinda would be a woman I would know and be friends with in my life- she was a school teacher and a true woman and I can see her son eventually doing the true way as well and speak up- “maybe”

                I think a few years back when I ran a search on him he has family “tied” into the firefighter community—not sure if it was Cornville/Cottonwood/Sedona area…and he may not “speak up”

                another strike is his wife works for County

                – see:
                https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=894&dat=19960408&id=mBoOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iH0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2317,920150&hl=en

                plus they live in the very community that pays their lifestyles/bills

                just saying

                probably not going to ever see or hear from Paul Morin

                hashtag

                Reply

            • I think he left Glen Ilah and went somewhere and, apparently, “nobody” knew where he went.

              He didn’t leave the fire because he was back again after the fire burned through Glen Ilah, getting himself tangled up in the power line.

              Reply

  35. OK i have painstakingly read through the past four days worth of comments here, and I just have to say this place has gone, essentially, nuts.

    Reply

      • I am just awaiting missing elements and re-posting old photos for newbies and reading how to make a map of my trails to try it to have it lock up-
        about sums my past few days.

        Reply

        • The whole thing about the aerial thing. And the geography.

          I’ve appreciated your posting of your photos. And I’ve tried to help time-stamp them downstream.

          And I’m looking forward to your maps. I finally got a geo-recorder for my Canon 70D. It captures the coordinates and puts them in a map in Lightroom (or on Google Earth if I want to.).

          I really need to get back to my photography, which has languished. I have a 30-day Photoshop Bootcamp coming up in later June. Hope that will help me get back to photography.

          Hope you are feeling better!!! Namaste.

          Reply

        • so if we look at the past few days Marti- I do capitalize on most comments so in reality you should not say “you guys” because I am the one who has been in a lot of pain with on one side of my body a tumor is screwing with me and on the other side passing kidney stones and been a lot of pain so I do my regimen and walks but it’s a lot of pain and awaiting relief so if it makes it better for you because I adore you I can pass on logging on IM—because your work and your presence IS important-

          Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on May 30, 2016 at 3:00 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Were Helicopters working Yarnell?

      You’re kidding me now, right?

      >> A lot going on we are not hearing. I have tried to explain that before.
      >>
      >> You need to check more of the data before throwing the Blame around.
      >> Some has not been given to us. Like all the Helicopter Traffic.
      >> I doubt any of that was copied.

      You are obviously totally clueless about what was happening in the Air that day… and what really is in the evidence record and the recordings.

      So much so that there is no point continuing this conversation.

      PLEASE go and listen to the Air-To-Air channel recordings.

      They are ALL sitting in this online folder…

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABsWIxpJqjgl7GDgeB8sQ8ua/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video_with_134175_audio?dl=0

      Reply

      • I agree with one thing you are spending to much time with the recordings and not checking other things that affect the Air show.

        Reply

        • The real clueless one is WTKTT your arrogance is over riding your ability to Listen to others. and evaluate and discuss.

          YES I HAVE LISTENED TO ALL OF THE RECORDINGS
          I have been here as well for 3 years.

          You have– one never been on a Fire Number two never been in a Air attack Plane, Number three never managed a Heliport with several Helicopters doing Water drops, Number four set in a Plain with several channels going off and talking on others at the same time while below you thing are totally going to hell.

          So I am not trying to tell you what happened but tell you how things happen and why.

          THE RECORDINGS ARE NOT THE COMPLETE STORY

          To tell me I am totally clueless to what was happening in the air that day
          is like saying I have never been there or that my 500 hours in that position has no relevance to your conclusions.

          This discussion is not under your leadership it is a group discussion you were never name the Leader here nor was any one else.

          You might reflect on the fact that two of us have been attempting two tell you do not know it all from just recordings.

          Reply

          • Bob,

            I agree that the A2A recordings do not tell the whole story but they are excellent evidence of what was happening from the aerial resources perspective. The recordings tell a part of the story that helps put pieces of the puzzle together. It would be great to have the A2G audio as well as it would serve to put more pieces together.

            Sure is frustrating that everywhere one looks for the important information, the PTB have either muted or otherwise rendered the audio almost useless. I believe this is be design.

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • My understanding is the Air to Ground was not being recorded except where it was picked up by some other recording.

              The Helitack Operation was not being recorded as well.

              Some Fire camps once set up record all channels but that is not a standard thing.

              My points were that there is a lot more going on out side the AtoA.

              You might also go back and read what WTKTT printed on the Conversations between French and Collins.

              Two things to Note—They were finishing drops with a SEAT near peoples Valley on Spot Fires.
              French says he did not think they could do any good with it in Yarnell. At 1554 and would wait for the VALT.

              Reply

              • Bob,

                Do you know for sure that the A2G was not recorded or just a hunch? My hunch, since they were doing an air study that day. is that it would be unusual to leave out the A2G portion of the aircraft work. It’s an ‘Aerial Firefighting Study.’ I’ll have to check some things to see if I can find out what they typically include and exclude.

                Yes, and I agree that there’s a lot more going on outside of A2A and that’s why it would be extremely beneficial to hear the A2G traffic for better context of what was happening.

                Thanks,

                Woodsman

                Reply

                • My understanding as in not for sure.

                  I believe that they would have had to have two different recorders hooked up in the same plane to record both.
                  or the Pilot was recorded and if he switched to A to G then
                  That might have picked up and recorded ground?.

                  Reply

                  • Bob,

                    I’m thinking that our technology has more than progressed enough to be able to record radio traffic without having a device actually installed in the aircraft. This is the 21st century. And I’m not trying to poke you with a stick either. You can’t seriously believe that an actual recorder has to be physically installed in the actual aircraft in order to record the radio traffic, can you?

                    Maybe I’m misunderstanding why you’re trying to say?

                    Woodsman

                    Reply

                  • Bob,

                    I’m thinking that our technology has more than progressed enough to be able to record radio traffic without having a device actually installed in the aircraft. This is the 21st century. And I’m not trying to poke you with a stick either. You can’t seriously believe that an actual recorder has to be physically installed in the actual aircraft in order to record the radio traffic, can you?

                    Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say?

                    Woodsman

                    Reply

                    • Not A recorder but like a computer stick.

                      The problem is two different people on different freq. The pilot may have had the recording A to A on his set but not on the other seat that was using A to G. I do not know but there seems to be nothing on A to G. So only my thoughts. And you can poke I am OLD …….

                      You would think there would be the ability to record every thing.

                  • And not only that… some time ago I spent a LOT of time looking for specific information about this Federally-Funded “Aerial Firefighting Study” that Eric Panebaker and his crew were being PAID to do ( again… totally with TAXPAYER dollars ) that day in Yarnell.

                    I wanted to see if the SPECIFICATIONS for the contracted Air Study actually REQUIRED the A2G channel to be recorded along with the A2A channel.

                    No joy.

                    As far as the Federal Government seems to have been concerned… Eric Panabaker and his entire crew might have been taking home taxpayer-dollar paychecks for all that work they were doing…

                    …but there is NO RECORD of that specific “Aerial Firefighting Study” ever having been authorized, or subcontracted to Panebaker, or anything.

                    Like it never existed.

                    Your tax dollars at work.

                    Reply

                    • WTKTT,

                      No joy indeed. That’s what I was searching for: specifications for the data collection to see if it entails all air traffic (A2G etc.)

                      I even looked for ANY similar aerial firefighting study to learn of the typical contents….no joy.

                      The dead link has challenged me to search harder. They can’t hide it all…….if they have endeavored to ‘hide it’ that is.

                      I’m telling you line ff’s out there:

                      YOU’RE ON YOUR FREAKIN’ OWN!

                      Watch out for yourselves and each other. Do not count on managers or HQ to cover you. You must do your due diligence. Eyes wide open!!!

                      Here we go, Fire Season 2016. Fingers crossed….

                      Woodsman

              • Bob said:My understanding is the Air to Ground was not being recorded except where it was picked up by some other recording.
                MY REPLY: my understanding there is a mysterious notebook binder …maybe a trapper keeper is a good name to call it…and it has additional air to ground details that could help clarify///just saying///rightdale1///using your lingo today :)/////

                Reply

                • Joy,

                  Are you referring to Dale that works or worked in the Arizona dispatch and handled aircraft?

                  Thanks!

                  Woodsman

                  Reply

                  • no—I mentioned IM’s dale who uses /////// in his posts and it seems by chance Bob and I did too today and I was on cell and did not feel like erasing it and fixing it so the ///// stayed-

                    but maybe that is the Dale who visits here—that works or worked in the Arizona dispatch and handled aircraft

                    Reply

                    • …………….you mean Dale that works in Arizona dispatch & handles aircraft………………………come on Dale, help us out.

            • Reply to Rocksteady post on May 31, 2016 at 11:32 am

              >> Rocksteady said…
              >>
              >> I got to agree.

              Agree… on what?

              That we don’t have the FULL story on why Thomas French would give his boss ( Air Attack Rory Collins ) the full impression that he would do what Collins had TOLD him to do, at 3:50 PM… and then did no such thing for another 40 minutes?

              Of course we don’t.

              Full A2G recordings could suddenly ‘fall out from behind a filing cabinet’ somewhere… and even those recordings probably won’t tell the WHOLE story.

              Example: These two men ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) were sitting NEXT to each other in the same airplane. There was a THIRD person onboard as well ( ATGS(t) Trainee Clint Cross ).

              We will probably NEVER know what ANY of these men were actually saying to EACH OTHER, within the cockpit of the aircraft itself.

              But that still doesn’t mean the evidence we DO have doesn’t “tell a story”. It does.

              And to tie all this back to what really kicked it all off in the first place… the answer is YES… we DO have ‘enough evidence’ already to say that DIVSA Eric Marsh had a right to BELIEVE ( circa 3:50 PM ) that ‘Air Support’ was SUPPOSED to shift its attention to the YARNELL side of the fire… at any moment following 3:50 PM… and that simple BELIEF *may* have been a big factor in the subsequent decision making on his part… and the part of ‘others’ down there on that side of the fire.

              Another example: Gary Cordes called OPS1 Abel on his cellphone just 4 minutes after OPS1 Todd Abel told Marsh (quote) “We’ll get some Air Support down there As SOON as Possible”.
              Gary Cordes told OPS1 Abel to TELL ‘Air Support’ to PLEASE start “Dropping a WILL” there on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire and just try to save whatever they could in whatever window of opportunity remained to do that, circa 3:55 PM.

              So even SPGS1 Gary Cordes, down there on the Yarnell side, had every reason to BELIEVE that was going to happen.

              It didn’t. We know that now.

              But there is already solid proof that at least TWO of the men ‘running the show’ on that Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire ( both DIVSA Marsh and SPGS1 Cordes ) had every reason to believe ( circa 3:55 PM ) that ‘Air Support’ was going to show up down there in ‘full force’… at any moment.

              So I hope that ( finally ) answers Muzzy’s original question.

              The answer is YES… there is still every reason to believe that the ‘expectation’ of imminent ‘Air Support Focus’, circa 3:55, played a factor in the decision making that was happening ‘down there’ on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.

              Reply

    • Bob,

      Not an expert and wasn’t there, but this is from the BRIHC interview:

      When they get back to the buggies, Travis has recloned all the radios in attempt to improve radio commo. The crew witness’ a near miss with the VLAT and the helitanker. B4 B & T get back to the buggies, Travis feels that AA sounds overwhelmed, the air show seemed troublesome. The helos seemed to be free lancing dropping where they want, no one directing them on tactics. This is when the helitanker splits the east flank. The tankers and helo’s aren’t picking up the black and establishing good black, no solid anchor point. Hit and miss, spotty, unanchored drops of water. Tankers were going indirect, this is when True says were going defensive around 1200-1215. This is when the seasonals say, this is like the Swiss cheese effect…Trew comes back with we need a piece of cheese. This is just one big hole.

      Reply

      • I think Bob is looking at this more through a lens of how it’s supposed to, normally, be done. And, probably, more often, is.

        Some of the rest of us are looking at it more through a lens of how it actually happened, according to the digital records that we have access to.

        Therein lies the bumpiness, imho.

        Reply

        • Hmm, ok. I guess my question here is,”How out of the ordinary was the AA activity on this fire compared to others?” The SAIR interviews, combined with the recorded radio traffic shows individual pilots telling hotshots to dig a direct rather than indirect line, and enforcing that”request” by dropping retardant on the first, and then the second indirect lines. Pilots dropping retardant with no apparent rhyme or reason, pilots leaving at critical times, etc. There is also some discussion of what actually happened vs what was reported in the SAIR interviews.

          There is the ideal of everyone agreeing on a plan and getting the fire out toot-sweet, but when leadership is lacking, or when conditions deteriorate, how much latitude do pilots get to decide what they do? Is the situation we see at YHF within the normal range?

          Some of this started when I asked whether commitment of aerial support in the south end of the fire might have influenced GMIHC’s decision to move from the black.

          Bob Powers and others have rightly pointed out that no promise of air support should have brought them out of the black, but something did and I wondered if it was that Marsh saw a place for GM on the south end. If that was the case, was anyone else aware of that plan?

          Reply

          • Reply to Muzzy post on May 30, 2016 at 8:42 pm

            >> Muzzy said…
            >>
            >> Some of this started when I asked whether commitment
            >> of aerial support in the south end of the fire might have
            >> influenced GMIHC’s decision to move from the black.

            It was ( and remains ) a GOOD question.

            But don’t worry about asking a ‘question’ around here and then watching it launch it what appear to be all kinds of ‘side’ issues.

            It happens all the time.

            All I was really trying to do was answer your question in the context that YES… there is a LOT of evidence that Eric Marsh had every reason to believe that ‘Air Support’ was going to be shifting its focus to the YARNELL side of the fire at any moment… from 3:50 PM onward, if not sooner.

            At 3:50:08 PM… we HEAR OPS1 Abel tell Marsh “we’ll get some air support down there As Soon As Possible”.

            28 seconds later… at 3:50:36… we HEAR Air Attack Rory Collins telling the pilot of Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French ) to do exactly what OPS1 Todd Abel told Eric Marsh he was going to do. To shift his ‘priorities’ to the YARNELL side of the fire… because there was a (quote) “heck of wind shift going on” and there was NOW (quote) “A LOT of fire headed towards Yarnell”.

            If OPS1 Todd Abel called Air Attack Rory Collins on the A2G channel immediately after telling Marsh he would “get some air support down there ASAP”… then Marsh himself would have most likely also HEARD OPS1 Todd Abel doing that ( on the A2G channel ).

            So that would have been just more ‘confirmation’ in Eric Marsh’s mind that this “shift in priorities” for the Air Support was ‘underway’ and it culd be assumed most of the Air Support would be showing up down around Yarnell at just about any moment.

            Then, just 4 minutes later… at 3:55 PM… SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ Unit Log ( and his ADOSH testimony ) says is when he called OPS1 Todd Abel with his cellphone and told OPS1 Abel to tell ‘Air Support’ to immediately start “Dropping at will” in and around Yarnell and Glen Ilah and try to (quote) “save anything that could be save while there was still time”.

            But NONE of that ever happened.

            ‘Air Support’ would not even begin to shift it’s attention to the Yarnell side of the fire for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.

            So THAT was the ‘side story’ that emerged from your question… but regardless of how long it took Air Support to shift its attention to YARNELL… your QUESTION was still centered around what Eric Marsh may or may not have BELIEVED circa 3:50 PM and onward.

            And the answer is still that from 3:50 PM onward… there WAS every reason for DIVSA Eric Marsh to believe that the ‘Air Support’ was going to suddenly appear in and around Yarnell and Glen Ilah at ‘any moment’… and that ‘belief’ MAY have been influencing the decisions that he ( and others? ) were making from 3:50 PM onward.

            No one knew ( circa 3:50 PM ) that ‘Bravo 33’ wouldn’t even bother to show up down there until around 4:25 PM… or start attempting to do anything at all for even another 5 minutes while French ‘checked it out’ because ( as he told the only SEAT left on-scene ) (quote) “This is my FIRST TIME DOWN HERE”.

            >> Muzzy also said…
            >>
            >> Bob Powers and others have rightly pointed out that
            >> no promise of air support should have brought them
            >> out of the black, but something did and I wondered
            >> if it was that Marsh saw a place for GM on the south
            >> end. If that was the case, was anyone else aware of
            >> that plan?

            See above.

            Regardless of all the ‘side stories’ that got launched down below… the answer to your original question is still YES… that from 3:50 PM onward… Marsh had every reason to simply BELIEVE that ‘Air Support’ might be ‘showing up’ down there at ‘any moment’.

            Reply

              • WTKTT
                To do what support the Crew no one asked for that from what we have. No one knew the crew was moving including AA. What was the targets in the south. I find nothing in the recording suggesting any Targets or Crew support.

                Really vague to make those conclusions. or assumptions.

                Reply

                • Hi Robert,

                  There is this: http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336878

                  discussing the statement from Abel that he would get some air support to the south, which Abel then passed to Collins, who then passed it to Bravo 33 about 15:50, who then left the scene and didn’t return until 16:25 or so.

                  I know, not much, and Marsh could have confirmed the aerial support before the guys left the saddle. Of course, that would have occurred during the lost half hour.

                  Reply

                  • Still Unknown what support meant nothing ever said on that. It is a very open statement to say the lest.

                    Again if every one thought the crew was in the black then there would have been no discussion on supporting the crew as they moved. There is no evidence that discussion took place.

                    At the time of this discussion the fire front was east to west north of the Dozer push and not to the Trucks, which could have been what they were talking about. The burning front was over a mile long and would have required a VALT to hit the whole line. They were waiting for the VALT to arrive at 1600. Need to look and see when the VALT arrived over the fire it was there when it was put on hold to look for GM. The smoke and wind was a huge factor by 1620 on the south side of The smoke column was over 6000 Ft by 1627.

                    That makes me believe this statement had nothing to do with the crew move. More to do with the fire activity near the trucks that had caused them to be moved.

                    So I will assume that while WTKTT assumes something else. If the crew was asking for air support for there move it would have been all over the OPS Radio and remember this was all before the Crew ever moved.

                    Reply

                    • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 2:18 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> That makes me believe this statement
                      >> had nothing to do with the crew move.

                      Okay… now you are finally ‘catching on’.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> So I will assume that while WTKTT
                      >> assumes something else.

                      What ‘something else’?

                      It is YOU that only now seems to be ‘coming around’ to the point I have ALWAYS been making… that this “promise of Air Support” from OPS1 Abel to DIVSA Marsh at 3:50 PM most likely had NOTHING to do with any kind of ‘Crew move’. It simply had to do with switching the FOCUS of ‘Air Support’ ( in general ) from up there on the NORTH side of the fire and down to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side.

                      Period. End of story.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> If the crew was asking for air support
                      >> for there move it would have been
                      >> all over the OPS Radio.

                      I agree ( and have ALWAYS agreed ) with that.

                    • So we agree and some time what we say seems to get all screwed up in the discussion.
                      I have been there all along if you did not notice.
                      So we will agree on this point.

                    • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 9:25 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> So we agree and some time what
                      >> we say seems to get all screwed
                      >> up in the discussion.
                      >>
                      >> I have been there all along if you
                      >> did not notice.
                      >>
                      >> So we will agree on this point.

                      Fine.

                      Now click the following link and see how absolutely full of shit you STILL are over this whole ‘radio’ thing….

                      http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-337892

        • You are some what correct. I am also saying what is not on the Transmissions may as well be happening in the plane seats.

          The AA and the Lead Plane Pilot were able to talk to each other with out Radio.
          They were in the same plane.

          Reply

          • Even if ops 1 had made a full blown promise to Marsh that air support WILL be down on the Sputh end, that does not make it correct to leave the black and head there.

            10 and 18 does not say you can go blind into a canyon in unburned fuels IF you have a promise of Air Support

            Reply

            • Rocksteady,

              I think we all agree that Marsh and Steed were 100% responsible for leading their guys into their valley of death. But neither did so thinking there was a high probability of death nor did they do it in a vacuum. My question is: what influence did overhead have in tilting the balance toward moving where they did?

              Somewhere in my reading I heard the speculation that they were tired and hungry and just trying to get to their buggies a little sooner! Maybe they had their own secret plan, shared with no one, to reap great glory by helping somehow in Yarnell. Possible, but if they had a plan, they would need input from someone else to pull it off. They had no transport, few tools. Maybe they planned to direct traffIc, commandeer the dozer? No, they expected something that was worth the risk, or was not as risky as we now see it was.

              I think it’s important to know because if there is still overhead out there running fires after they orchestrated (deliberately vague as to action or promise) this mess, They should at least agree to an action plan, don’t you think?

              Reply

              • I do not think they thought they were going to die I think Marsh thought they could take the risk and beat the Fire. Something he had done before and made it work.
                BAD DICISSIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES.

                Reply

            • RS,

              Yes. Totally agree.

              I’m interested in all the factors both direct and indirect that influenced the decisions of various personnel on the Yarnell Hill fire that led to the death of almost an entire HS crew. The analysis doesn’t lead to a place that says it’s ok to do what GM did, there’s just a whole lot more to the story, in my opinion. It’s very complicated.

              Thanks,

              Woodsman

              Reply

              • Woodsman said:I’m interested in all the factors both direct and indirect that influenced the decisions of various personnel on the Yarnell Hill fire that led to the death of almost an entire HS crew.
                MYREPLY: and I would also add for me all the areas hiding in the dark that I call missing elements.

                RTS/BOB- you are right on one solid account- the end result and who led them there yet I just say don’t publicly state it until all the information is out…the real story still does lead to your perceptions…but await and behold and see and I know you both have details in lap and it is okay but really the end result is this fire cannot be properly assessed or judged or whatever until the missing elements surfaced- and not just some but all-

                Reply

                • Joy It is all right there you just said it.

                  All the rest is information to the story. Yes there are missing pieces but that is jut part of the domino effect. at any point pull out the next domino and the whole fall down stops.

                  In other words the Crew had the ability to stop the falling dominos at several points with any of a number of Safety rules. Including staying right where they were in the BLACK.

                  Reply

      • Muzzy you have a very sharp crew here in BR from top to bottom they knew a dog and pony show when they saw it………………Protect your ass at all costs.

        Reply

        • Yup. I enjoyed reading their interview:

          Jason Clawson says, “another western day” they say they have an hour before the trigger point to start evacuating. BR knows they don’t have an hr.

          It was 15 minutes, I think.

          So, if everyone knew this was a cluster-even the prison crews walked out-is there any way to salvage it? Who’s responsible to recognize when they are in the weeds, to call time out, to get back on track? Or do you just walk away and start writing notes to CYA?

          Reply

          • Reply to Muzzy post on May 31, 2016 at 4:43 pm

            >> Muzzy said…
            >>
            >> So, if everyone knew this was a cluster-even the prison
            >> crews walked out-is there any way to salvage it? Who’s
            >> responsible to recognize when they are in the weeds, to
            >> call time out, to get back on track?

            If you are using ( or even pretending to use ) the “ICT” organizational command structure on an ‘Incident’… then the answer to your question is one-person-and-one-person-ONLY…

            The “Incident Commander” ( IC ).

            On Sunday, June 30, 2013… that was a guy named Roy Hall.

            USA Today
            Article Title: Forestry officials knowingly disregarded wildfire-planning rules, according to a state safety commission.
            Published: 12:06 a.m. EST December 5, 2013
            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/04/ariz-forestry-division-fined-over-deadly-wildfire/3874215/

            From that article…
            ————————————————————
            PHOENIX — Arizona forestry officials knowingly disregarded wildfire-planning rules, sent crews into hazardous areas without adequate safety provisions and then failed to withdraw 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots as the Yarnell Hill Fire raged toward them last summer, a state safety commission ruled Wednesday.

            Citing the Arizona State Forestry Division’s willful and serious safety violations during its handling of the fatal blaze, the Industrial Commission of Arizona unanimously issued $559,000 in fines and penalties. That includes $25,000 to each firefighter’s family or estate.

            Because firefighters were not removed from harm’s way promptly and in keeping with established policies, the report concludes, 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died.

            Roy Hall, incident commander on the Yarnell Hill Fire, could not be reached for comment.
            ————————————————————

            Reply

  37. wwtktt- on my walk today I will get you a “live” shot with my cell that can gps it for you for accurate location for your below ? versus saying general- okay. I will also confirm with the person we saved to ensure that was the time that Sonny says because all I know we arrived and I saw my home clock at 8:18pm and went to get Penny water and her pets and Sonny and so I do remember we went to gas station and dollar store and no one was there so I went home to get them water and wipes from the ash/embers and was talking to Nick and John and I took photos of my home inside and out for “just in case” and my husband wished me well and to keep him in the loop because my plan was to go hike back up one area and get more photos. Sonny had different stubborn plan. As we drove to Wickenburg and Sonny had to have his senior coffee at McDonalds I saw a couple looked so deeply distraught and I asked if they were from the Yarnell area and he Mr. Lobeck said yes as his wife was at beverage area and he could talk about it all and having to escape and their horses and pets but she was deeply shut down and he asked us for our contact information and I gave him my local hobby hiking page where I had already began to post all the photos from the hike. He was grateful. I must admit I ran into them recently and every time I saw his wife she looked depressed except this last town she looked so beautiful and I thought he was walking with his daughter but it was her so time has done her well- she looked really good…I cannot say happy but a lot lighter than prior times…more at ease…shit, she does not wear makeup or fuss to today’s looks but really I took note her life had transitioned to outer appearance peace- I also walked by their home that burned and it is being rebuilt slowly- they live near the Helm’s and why I always wondered how come people near the Helm’s never made it to SAIR for interviews-

    I downloaded google earth
    and I am on
    Web
    Use the Google Earth plug-in to enjoy 3D views of the globe on sites across the web or try Earth view in Google Maps.

    also started using tour builder beta-

    please help me comprehend now- how do I add locations by gps?
    or using marker on a map or is it where I have to do it another way-

    this is way new to me.

    Reply

    • I think I see how come she was more at peace-
      records show they do not own that home that burned down and is being rebuilt—
      Recording Date 02/11/2016 02:35:33 PM so that she does not have to go into Glen Ilah-
      understand that-
      That may of helped her to move forward-
      all I know she looked terrific.

      Reply

    • as I am on google earth not figuring this out wwtktt I am on google map maker for trail making and seems little easier-

      anyways HOW COME the SAIT did not do like adosh and wear a gps trail tracker and tell us what way we went “exactly” and hike them?

      weirs when I think about it when we were eyewitness to the day- hmmm.

      Reply

      • the map locked up- I will have to walk away from it for now—frustrating—go take that pic with cell now for you wwtktt..

        Reply

    • Between 6 and 7 we were on our way to pick up Penny, her 7 pets and two parakeets and head down the mountain toward Congress. Her family picked her up there at the Dollar Store–no one was allowed up the mountain–only to come out.

      Reply

      • Thank you… but I guess I didn’t make my request clear enough.

        EXACTLY where were you?

        Can you give me a street address?

        I want to plug this photo into Google Earth and I need to know exactly where you were STANDING when you took the photo.

        I can figure out the compass direction, no problem… I just need something I can locate on a MAP like an approximate street address or a LAT/LONG.

        If you can only remember the name of the STREET where you were standing… I can figure out the rest.

        Reply

        • This after noon maybe you saw the photo of my son Ted–something when I see it takes hold of my heart like nothing else does. There is no other greater heart break than loosing a son–nothing can replace him, nothing can assuage the hurt. Life of the young ones that inherit this planet is so very important-so very precious that we must understand every detail of the mistakes that took their lives. I would have gladly given my life for that son or the others and my daughter if I could. But we can not turn back time, nor can we control what errors caused their loss. We who have lost a love one know the value of their lives–we can only do our best to make sure someone after us does not have to suffer the ill fortune we have had to endure. Do not think we take their loss lightly.

          The heroes I see here are those trying to get to the actual facts and truth of why 17 young souls were killed. This information once public will save more than 17 young lives in future wild land fire fighting situations. This is why it is so important that people that know what actually happened to cause those deaths is so important. It is a duty that we all have to find all the facts.

          It seems that many want to castigate people that are involved in finding the details of the Yarnell problem. To go ahead with this as an accident, or God thing is truly a way to insure that the same things will continue to condemn innocent lives to be destroyed. Our losses must be turned to improve a system that is killing these young people. The only way this will come about is by truth, not redactions, not cover ups to assure reputations, not false statements.

          True, most of have erred in life to one degree or another. I liked Marsh immediately–I saw a man of vision–a kind person, not an animal who would destroy those under his supervision. I did not meet Steed, but I am certain his intentions as Marsh were good. Still the facts show that their men died due to their commands–commands that were totally risky and unreasonable. Every wild land fire fighter I have met and some with exemplary credentials have told me that to go down into that dangerous bowl with an unpredictable wild fire near by was unconceivable. Myself as a civilian knew that without a doubt standing on that very place they went down, yet these men did go down. Joy did not know that danger and despite what she says, if we had gone her route–similar or worse than the GMHS route, we would not be here to consider this thing. I doubt her photos would have survived either looking at that pvc pipe that WTKTT asked about.

          It certainly is a heart breaker. I have of record had six wives–all in a row–I am not a Mormon of the old order or even the new ladder or new day saints. So I have six heart stints now–one for each broken heart–they were all good wives. .But the heart stint I do not have is for my son and for those 19 young souls that we saw that very day sacrificed by the fire gods of the day and the fire gods who did fail to take charge of a lightening strike while it was in the bud

          Can we point fingers–Joy says three are pointing back when we do. God knows none of us are perfect–except maybe the fire gods think they are. Taking awards after this fire–what can anyone justify that with?

          Still to deny that this was a tragedy due to faulty management and screwed up methods of fighting wild fires is the epitome of ignorance or else an attempt to maintain an air of undue respectability. Had I been a manager anywhere on this incident concerning the GMHS crew and their demise, I certainly would be hanging my head–never in any capacity accepting an award when 19 young men were killed and I was part of the watch and it is damn sure that most of the men that oversee wild fires are certain to agree.

          From my view I see too many fearful ones to come forward–I see too many afraid of the authorities that have proven they are not authorities. What a shame–too many lives of upcoming wild land fire fighters are at stake.

          Have I stung the egos of some of you think you are great assholes? I hope I have but doubt it. Too many of you are convinced of your own bullshit that you now have begun to smell. .

          Reply

        • FWIW I’ve been playing with her post-noon time stamps downstream in the roots. I think the camera was 22 minutes off, baked in, and then at noon it jumped back to the previous midnite.

          So I’m adding 12 hours and a half to her post-noon photos to get closer to an accurate timestamp. I’m not exact on this yet.

          So this would mean this photo was taken around 6:30 PM

          Reply

          • This is based on the pano she posted downstream that, according to her Google post, is time stamped at 1:55 AM while her cellphone said it was 2:33 PM.

            Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on May 30, 2016 at 3:09 pm

            >> Marti Reed said…
            >>
            >> FWIW I’ve been playing with her post-noon time
            >> stamps downstream in the roots. I think the camera
            >> was 22 minutes off, baked in, and then at noon it
            >> jumped back to the previous midnite.
            >>
            >> So I’m adding 12 hours and a half to her post-noon
            >> photos to get closer to an accurate timestamp. I’m
            >> not exact on this yet.
            >>
            >> So this would mean this photo was taken around 6:30 PM

            I still believe your original work proving the 10:30 AM time for the Blue Ridge Crew Carrier ‘arriving’ out there in the Sesame Clearing area takes care of the ‘morning’ time stamps. We can still compare that one photo of the BR Crew Carrier “kicking up dust” as it was arriving out there with Blue Ridge’s own smartphone-based known-timestamp photos taken moments before as they proceeded up into the Sesame Clearing from where the pavement of Lakewood/Manzanita ends.

            But yea… as for what happened at NOON… and the camera ‘flipped’… that’s still a bit of a mystery.

            Reply

            • Yeah. I don’t think we need to get anal about this.

              But I think know that the post-noon photos are timestamped “about” 12 and a half hours early helps for a bunch of her afternoon photos.

              Reply

        • Well, for lack of a better response to your question, there’s that power line and that turquoise wall.

          Reply

            • I’ve given up on Just.Having.To.Shake.My.Head ’round here.
              Too much, too often.
              And I was developing a persistent crick in my neck.

              So no actual ‘pain’, really. Just….. ( heavy sigh ).

              Reply

              • I’ve been addictively following the Democratic Primary on Daily Kos. I’ve learned a ton, but it’s another crazy zone.

                And I’ve learned the hard way (here) about confirmation bias. Heh.

                Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on May 30, 2016 at 3:20 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> Well, for lack of a better response to your question,
            >> there’s that power line and that turquoise wall.

            Yep. I see them.

            And all the dark-black ‘tar strikes/whirls’ on the pavement… and the driveway in the lower left, and the bits of houses at the base of the pole… yada… yada…

            But I was hoping for at least a better starting point before driving around in Google Street View.

            Hope springs eternal… ( you know the rest ).

            Reply

              • plus I had planned to just say Happy and Crest asap but I wanted to PROVE it with current photo-

                It was still less than 24 hours and I am in a lot of pain today and frustrated I spent most the day on a map to have the map freeze up—

                so for the record I answer much quicker than any SAIT member or Forestry or even Donut or loved ones or people who knew the men or worked with them or anyone on that fire—
                for the record-
                just saying

                Reply

                • Again… Thank you, Joy.

                  So you were standing right here when you took that photo, and facing WEST…

                  34.219784, -112.745966

                  At a point in the distance ( and behind the smoke ) directly up from the rear end of that car in the center of the photo, was the deployment site.

                  Reply

                    • Yes. Joy was standing exactly here…

                      34.219784, -112.745966

                      Conrner of Crest Way and Happy Way,
                      Yarnell, EAST side of Hwy 89 and up the hill a ways.

                      The ‘view’ in the center of the photo and behind the smoke is straight out into the box canyon

    • I sent you photos-

      it is Happy and Crest here in town-

      near where Penny did live-
      she moved after the fire to Louisiana but since then has returned and married and lives back in town and I only seen her one time on taco Tuesday-
      she did not seem her glowing cheerful self-
      drained and quiet-
      I have not reconfirmed the times yet but we can tell you we were eating at diner 5-5:30pm and we know that due to waitress confirmation as we discussed one day Russ Reason and his media footage- and after that we went to room #15 and I was throwing up and in the toilet sick…while Sonny was being addressed first by new manager and when we did not leave on her request the old manager came and stayed there and forced us out immediately even though I was vomiting up what I just ate and was in the bathroom and reason how much remained behind because of her irrational temperament and so sickening to watch her in this panicky demanding way when I just saw that silly behavior as we drove away out of Glen Ilah and I am thinking these people are nuts- it ain’t coming NEAR Yarnell- I just came off the Weavers and it was gonna do mayhem on Peeples Valley not here and I am sick and just got done doing one hell of a long day hike…I was in no mood for any female getting all crazy panicky so I walked to car and told Sonny we will just go see it from Penny’s place and https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5911726150683632913/5911737535568477762?authkey=CMSBuJL2pZXeOg&pid=5911737535568477762&oid=112068160404980104272 then come back later- We get to Penny’s and she is nervous and panicky because her family was not allowed up the hill to get her and all her pets and no one could drive that many pets to Congress so we said we could take her with my mind set after seeing that fire I would climb up as TIRED and SICK I was to get more photos from the tower mountain and that was my plan that day because what I saw at her home was the gates of hell opening up and I finally was interested in taking photos and I wanted to stop and get my sd card but the manager was right there in the front of #15 kicking others out- I sunk thinking I wanted to grab some gear and stuff in case of fire getting that close and burning it and so I quickly thought to ask Sonny and he said we could come up later and I said no one is allowed up and he said we would come up back way—I never imagined someone would steal my stuff and that still hurts more than the thought of it burning because there is an sd card taken from me that did have a lot of fire pics that showed the trails in the bowl to the old grader road and the head on shots of the GMHS— anyways there you have it… HAPPY AND CREST!

      Reply

      • cannot narrow a estimated time better than Sonny but can say it took a long time to drive down because of the dark clouds and flying ember/ashes and others’ slow driving and she got a call on the Weavers and it is an on and off dead zone and I can tell you I asked her long ago—but she never did confirm to us a time-

        Reply

      • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 30, 2016 at 3:57 pm

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> I sent you photos-
        >>
        >> it is Happy and Crest here in town-

        Thank you, Joy.

        So you were standing right here when you took that photo,
        and facing WEST…

        34.219784, -112.745966

        At a point in the distance ( and behind the smoke ) directly up from the rear end of that car in the center of the photo, was the deployment site.

        Reply

    • Joy must have put a hundred comments on this afternoon. I came home after a jaunt near Stanton and down the hill.–America is still free in some places if you can hide out enough–came back and there were sheriffs everywhere near my abode. Seems some local guy was being looked for–don’t know if they found him or not–think a few outlaws still around but not my concern. I believe that we are mostly capable of defending ourselves but then too many are depending upon a fantasy. America was built by men and women of character–doubtful you found many whiners and people that needed to call. I think most of us should be fire fighters in spirit. But then you look at all the obese people in this country and you wonder why. Well no disrespect to fat people but I never saw a fat miner or wild land fire fighter–even a logger, but I have to admit I did see a very few cow boys–mostly women that had a weight problem. Still most cow boys are lean and mean sol I better be careful–might meet one of those fat ones that is mean and fat.

      Joy turned down an arab doctor–cant blame her there–I had one that took a knife to cut out a cancer behind my ear and he was not happy that day since he was not a dermatologist and was sitting in for one at the VA. I am lucky I have an ear left and I knew it at the time–but this is the way life is == and just because he was a muslim did not mean he meant it seeing his attitude–except he had a bad day maybe. Those guys are lean and mean too. Please, you head bumpers do not take offense–I am not exactly a Christian but damn sure not a Muslim. I am sorry you boys fucked up my ability to carry dynamite at all times–I could be using it now to carve out this granite here and take up a few stumps–but now the shit your kind did, it is not worth fooling with considering all the regulations. A quarter stick or half of 40% could have took out a few of my stumps where now it takes a bulldozer or a back hoe hired to do a simple job. Shit, America ain’t right–but where is?

      Reply

      • I know Gary don’t like Trump–me either–but I have to say if that son of a bitch could clean up the Muslims that want to fuck up this country I would say yay. We keep admitting those people into this country–if you go back in history you fine that once they come in and get a foot hold then you become like Turkey or Iran. They multiply like flies and too many become radical to the point of killing every thing that is not to their thinking concerning their allah. The religion stinks much like Christian people that start up these cults. I think too much head bumping can affect the brain. That is one point I do think Trump is correct in; however, I see him as a demagogue. But Clinton lady does not make much sense either so what do you think? I am on the fence now.

        Reply

          • Let me add that the more muslims Mr. Obama, Husame wants to bring in the more arms the American citizen better start getting. Hillary wants to do away with arms–but anytime a government wants to take away your protection and promise you their protection you better watch out. Demagogues do not like just a little bit of control, they want it all. And their first move is to disarm the population and promise you their protection, just as King George did to the colonists–turn in your arms boys and the king will protect you. Bullshit–and times have not changed.

            Reply

      • WTKTT wants to know about the white pole on the two track right about where the GMHS deciced to risk a drop into the bowl. We passed that pole upright in the middle of the two track and was held up by rocks around it. After that 2″ PVC pole was fried into a snake like configuration. Best I can figure is that it was a mining claim corner. Mining claims are staked in a configuration of 600’x1500 ft. for a 20 acre claim. A lot of times prospectors will stake a claim in such way not knowing they are on state land. Mining claims have to be on federal lands. But right there near that marker is some good gold prospects that were shallow diggings. In fact if you go up that incline of the two track on the right are some sulfides showing up and likely a very good chance they have enough gold content to mine. Except my Dad always avoided state lands–you can lease them but then it is red tape that simple prospectors hate to deal with. In Arizona you have to go through the office in Phoenix and pay 20% to the state on royalties. If the state gave the widows mineral rights they should be rich after all because as an old miner I picked up that situation right there and I hope they did since they deserve it for the fuck up the bosses did killing the young ones.

        See I got fucked out of a fire agate mine where I was making 500 a day back in the 70’s. I had applied for a lease with the state two times but was refused. One Howard Hughes, a colonel with clout, found out and with that clout got a lease and kicked me off the claim. He used to pay me ten dollars a pound and I always kept him 50 pounds a day. He told me he made a fortune off what I sold him at that price but I was happy at what he paid. Oddly he lasted a year and as I learned blew himself up in lighting a leaky water heater. I was mining gold in California near Pine Valley at the time when I heard about his demise. But state leases are different and the boundaries square instead of like federal mining claim

        Dad had the same experience in a way–we were mining a manganese blow out near Duncan Az and south of the Carlisle mine that President Hoover had been a mining engineer at. The mine ran two ounces gold and was a good prospect even back in the 60’s. But once Dad found out he was on State instead of federal lands he dropped it. Too much bullshit dealing with the state he said.

        So simply the answer is that the marker was a claim stake that marked a corner for either a mistaken federal claim or else someone did mark a state claim. Hope the widows do well there if the state was decent enough to give them mineral rights–if not the state needs it to make up for the millions they squandered putting out the fire that locals failed to put out.

        There is valuable minerals there and that needs investigation–the marker was a testimony to what Joy and I would have looked like even on the two track if we had waited too long.

        Reply

        • Yes at 12:30 or so I did see the fire was at a stage no human ground effort could do anything to stop or slow it. Well Joy reminds me two pilots said that at 12:30 but I said it at 12:38 when I left Joy to enjoy the fireworks as the GMHS were doing the same as you see on the photo Joy did this day post. Very astute pilots there–so I wonder if they informed the GMHS or not. Likely the GMHS Marsh knew it was a lost cause same as the pilots–but I think truthfully someone and likely more than one above Marsh in the chain of command thought they ought to be doing their structure duties. What was Marsh’s comfort zone to risk it? What was the alternative if he did not? Answers are coming out but like pulling teeth. Is Marsh and Steed in hero class–depends on how you define hero I suppose. Not when you kill your subordinates for foolish actions in my way of thinking–but mitigated somewhat because they had commands above them.

          Joy did ask would I mine for the widows if they have mineral rights. Of course I would–they had the best men defending this town–nothing to blame to them — they were just doing their duty and following strict orders as they had agreed to do. Their bosses shoulder all the blame, as do their bosses bosses. all the way up to the top asshole that knew no better than have them risk their lives by breaking every common sense wild land safety rule.

          How can you be gentle with assholes that killed so many.

          Reply

        • Reply to Charlie post on May 29, 2016 at 10:05 pm

          >> Charlie said…
          >>
          >> Best I can figure is that it was a mining claim corner.
          >> Mining claims are staked in a configuration of 600’x1500 ft.
          >> for a 20 acre claim. A lot of times prospectors will stake a
          >> claim in such way not knowing they are on state land. Mining
          >> claims have to be on federal lands. But right there near that
          >> marker is some good gold prospects that were shallow diggings.

          Thank you. That question was WAY down below so thanks for ‘catching it’.

          I believe you must be right… and what is interesting is that the exact place where the 19 Hotshots died actually appears to have been a ‘miners camp’ even as late as 1968.

          There is a 1968 aerial photo of that box canyon that shows this ‘clearing’ that Granite Mountain actually ended up choosing to lay down and die in was, in fact, a bona-fide ‘mining camp’.

          It even had TWO ROADS leading to it. One from what would now be the ‘Candy Cane Lane’ area and followed almost exactly the route that the new bulldozed ‘body recovery’ path takes out to the deployment site… and the other road that led to/from this clearing/camp ran along the northern side of the blind box canyon and off towards what would now be the Boulder Springs Ranch ‘cattle pond’ area ( the exact place where DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 landed on June 30, 2013 to let DPS medic Eric Tarr out so he could hike to the deployment site and discover the bodies ).

          It will be beyond ironic if word gets out about that area where the men died and people come to believe there is ‘gold’ out there.

          They will end up using the new $670,000 parking lot and the hiking trail as just a convenient way to go up there looking for shit.

          Reply

          • Yes, there are some very good gold prospects going up above the Helms right above the cattle pond that they worked from that camp. Those diggings and the quartz vein material I looked at should run an ounce or better–now feasible but in those days of 22.50 an ounce not perhaps. Same where the widows have the land. There are prospect diggings there as well and low grade gold ore on top. The main camp was where the old grader was since you find plenty of evidence there from the old cans and bottles left there. Above the grader a ways on that “two track” is a slusher buck– used underground to drag ore and muck forward after a blast. Ususally that meant there were lower levels–the shit you drug forward went through a grizzly (rails that kept big boulders out). That rock went to a lower level where it went into a bin and below that was an ore car and a man could open a that bin with a hand job or hydraulic gate to fill ore cars with. Then it was motored (trained) out to the main shaft then dumped into an ore bucket and then cabled up the main shaft to the surface. A little explanation of how things go underground==now do not get your head in a hydraulic gate as one Mexican did when I was working at Fierro, NM as a raise miner. It will guaranteed make your head into a pancake.

            Reply

            • See O I did all this shit from nine years up–like those wild land fighters of years, mining is my shit–cant fool me there–maybe not on wild fires either now that I learned a few of their secrets. Common sense is a hell of a good helper–kind of like the Irish goddess Dana–she is around when you least expect.

              Reply

        • Good Lord of the Irish dear DANA–forgive me for fucking up the English a bit–my inculcated past English teacher has gritted her teeth–like the Creole I have changed it a bit using a singular verb where a plural one is deemed correct–so I will leave the error alone and only apologize if someone demands it.

          Reply

          • That inculcated teacher does not even know one fucking Irish work–Dana forgive her big ass–

            Reply

        • Yes in truth, if the widows do not evaluate their gift from the state they will miss a treasure trove their followers will have. Maybe it is good that they pass it along. But WTKTT has uncovered some true history of gold miners camps right there where the men died–

          Reply

          • I don’t believe any of the ‘widows’ own any of that land.

            The entire South Half of that ‘Section 9’ was purchased at auction by the Arizona State Parks Department, on the steps of the Prescott County Courthouse, the morning of June 30, 2014. ( the first anniversary of the tragedy ).

            A small subset of ‘widows’ that were involved with the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ continued to ‘influence’ the design and the access rights for the new ‘State Park’… but they are not ‘owners’ of any of the land.

            Reply

          • A little lesson for the widows about sulfides– The ones outcropping right there on the ridge are great indications of gold. This is gold country and above the grader they worked a very deep shaft because they had good assays of gold. You will have assays of gold on that inclined ridge where it inclines about 45 degrees about half way up the incline. If the state denies you the mineral rights they are cheepo cavarones.

            Reply

            • Now–do not think I am a mining engineer–close and likely know most than most in mining—we know what we know but a given if you have lived all your life as a logger then you know that you would not argue with a miner that did live all his life as a miner. I am so happy because the state and your lawyers royally fucked you–but if you have mineral rights they fucked themselves.

              Reply

    • Only one of several cans we picked up with melted lead–usually melted into tear drops–the loss of those young men. Aluminum cans also were melted. A great testimony to how hot these manzanita fires become–lessons to be learned and taught to the young fire fighter.

      Reply

      • Here is how things stand—-you bee hive cookie cutter mind fucked people need to know–common sense-none———— You have killed these men, now retribution comes your way–your act needs to be cleaned up. Your farce has gone too far once those good souls were killed because of your mismanagement and lack of respect of the lives of those under your control.

        Shit, a non com could have done better–even a fucking drunk one.

        Reply

    • Don’t think of donut–a cloud in the sky–a balloon about to burst- a kid without a base–a disaster that already happened–cry a little–he lied a little–let him pass as he will. Truth has no conscience and burns him hard.

      Reply

  42. Woodsman says

    May 29, 2016 at 3:19 pm

    Joy.

    All I’m seeing is the same photo of you (?) ‘smooching’ the camera standing by a cactus in the last several posts by you?

    Woodsman

    REPLY: does one have to be on google to view these photos wwtktt? you would know- weird.

    Reply

  43. WTKTT,

    This may be asking a lot and I apologize in advance but can you provide links to these:

    1. radio traffic on Air/Air from 1530-1730 on Jun 30. as captured on the air study.

    2, radio traffic on Air/Ground during the ‘mayday’ sequence from GM with times (I’m having a hard time locating the summary that has already been posted and debated on this site)

    Thanks!

    Woodsman

    Reply

    • Reply to Woodsman post on May 29, 2016 at 3:54 pm

      >> Woodsman said…
      >>
      >> This may be asking a lot and I apologize in advance but can you provide
      >> links to these:
      >>
      >> 1. radio traffic on Air/Air from 1530-1730 on Jun 30. as captured on the air study.

      There are FIVE separate videos that capture pretty much ALL of the Air-To-Air radio channel traffic on Sunday afternoon, June 30, 2013 ( from 2:48 PM to 5:15 PM ).

      Eric Panebaker STOPPED the ‘Air-To-Air’ channel recording at 1715:44 ( 5:15:44 PM ) that day.

      Here is where all FIVE of these videos reside in the online Dropbox…

      Folder…
      / Photos and Video / AerialFirefightingStudy / Panebaker / Video / Video_with_134175_audio

      Direct LINK to the Folder…
      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABsWIxpJqjgl7GDgeB8sQ8ua/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video_with_134175_audio?dl=0

      Here are the FIVE ‘Air-To-Air’ channel recording videos, and their associated actual START / STOP times ( including the time it took between each one for Panebaker to change the batteries and/or SD card and resuming ‘filming’ again )…

      ** Filename, Start time, Duration, End time

      ** 20130630_1510_EP.MOV, Start: 14:48:31, Duration: 22:10, End: 1510.41

      It now took Panebaker 5 min and 33 sec to change battery and/or SD card and resume…

      ** 20130630_1544_EP.MOV, Start: 15:16:14, Duration: 28:12, End: 1544.26

      It now took Panebaker 3 min and 32 sec to change battery and/or SD card and resume…

      ** 20130630_1628_EP.MOV, Start: 15:47:58, Duration: 40:14, End: 1628.12

      It now took Panebaker 2 min and 38 sec to change battery and/or SD card and resume…

      ** 20130630_1643_EP.MOV, Start: 16:30:50, Duration: 12:22, End: 1643.12

      It now took Panebaker 2 min and 7 sec to change battery and/or SD card and resume…

      ** 20130630_1716_EP.MOV, Start: 16:45:19, Duration: 0:31:25, End: 1716.44

      >> Woodsman also said…
      >>
      >> 2, radio traffic on Air/Ground during the ‘mayday’ sequence from GM
      >> with times ( I’m having a hard time locating the summary that has already
      >> been posted and debated on this site )

      ALL 21 of Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s videos that have been released so far are here in one InvestigativeMEDIA’s online Dropboxes…

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ipv8to6ih7gmzbq/AAC82U3UuheEtc8GPHFn91vea?dl=0

      The Aaron Hulburd video that became knows as the original “Helmet Cam” video and which has the ‘deployment radio traffic’ in it is the video with filename M2U00265.MPG ( last video to the RIGHT on the FIRST ROW ).

      The US Forestry Service has never released the ORIGINAL videos, or even byte-for-byte digital copies… so there is no ‘timestamp’ EXIF information in any of these copies of Aaron Hulburd’s originals… but the ‘accepted’ time of the actual START of video M2U00265 is exactly 1639:00 ( 4:39:00 PM ).

      NOTE: It is against the law to NOT provide ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of digital material in response to valid/legal FOIA requests… but is anyone surprised that the US Forestry Service doesn’t hesitate to ( continually ) break laws? For them… these pesky things called LAWS are really just sort of… well… you know… GUIDELINES.

      Reply

        • If there is a specific timeframe that you want a full transcript of… just let me know. I have transcripts for ALL of these videos… including the final one where it’s ‘hard to hear’ because of that annoying static.

          There actually are places in all that ‘static’ where certain conversations can still be made out ( in the time following the deployment ).

          I’ve never just ‘dumped’ all these transcripts onto the forum because… well… because they are obviously HUGE.

          But if you want a transcript of some section of time… just let me know.

          Reply

          • WTKTT,

            That would be great. I am working on narrowing down a timeframe of interest for a specific hypothesis. Hold that thought and thank you.

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • Copy that. I’ll be interested to hear your ‘hypothesis’.

              I still don’t think the ‘Air Show’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire ( all of it ) has been looked at or studied nearly enough.

              It had its own Good… Bad… and UGLY moments… and the ‘fly boys’ have been allowed to pretty much ‘skate’.

              Also… I am still convinced that the ‘Panebaker’ group had similar ‘capture’ recordings for the Air-To-Ground channel as well… that have never seen the light of day.

              Just like the Air-To-Air channel traffic was captured by using an inline cable from an actual radio into the ‘audio input’ jack of the camera ( which is why we ONLY hear the A2A channel in the videos linked to above )… I believe they MUST have done something similar for the A2G channel as well.

              It would be a pretty piss-poor ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ if all they did was record the A2A channel.

              You don’t get the ‘whole picture’ unless you have BOTH the A2G and the A2A channels recorded.

              If all they did was record the A2A channel… then they shouldn’t have even called it an ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’.

              They should have just called it…

              “A Study of a Bunch of Guys In Airplanes Talking To Each Other”.

              Reply

              • WTKTT,

                Copy all of that and agree they MUST have recorded A2G traffic as well as that’s a major part of air ops…unless I’m just a total dumbass…………(nobody needs to answer that)

                I’ll show you my very rough ‘hand of cards’, aka: hypothesis, aka: theory. aka: serious set of unanswered questions:

                I want the A2A transcript from the initial ‘mayday’ traffic from GM up until 1716 hrs. I am picking ups pieces of info that points me in the direction of AA abruptly leaving it’s station over the fire at the worst possible time and I want to know why?!!. Ranger 58 was begging (my interpretation) to launch to search for the crew for possible aid and they were held off for roughly 40 minutes. In the DPS flight crew reports there is statements to AA switching out planes and I want to have some context of what the hell was happening there.

                I have many questions regarding AA that afternoon.

                Woodsman

                Reply

                • Ah… yes… the old… “How many fucking times can we change out Air Attacks at critical moments on a Historic National Tragedy fire” question.

                  I know it well.

                  Yes… Rusty Warbis ( in ‘Bravo 3’ ) showed up over Yarnell just shortly after the deployment… and before even DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 could get in the air to even begin looking for the Granite Mountain Hotshots… ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) were bailing off the fire and handing over Air Attack to Rusty Warbis in Bravo 33. ( Just a little over 58 minutes after Air Attack Rory Collins had also left the fire and handed the ‘double duty’ of Air Attack AND Lead Plane over to THEM ).

                  It was like musical-fucking-Air-Attacks ALL AFTERNOON at the Yarnell Hill Fire.

                  The Air-To-Air channel recordings ended at 5:15 PM… but not before Eric Panebaker actually recorded this other ‘Air Attack swap out’ between ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend and ATGS trainee Clint Cross ) and inbound AA ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis ).

                  What happened was… around 5:05 PM… Thomas French decided there wasn’t jack shit they could do with regards to the Granite Mountain ‘incident’ there on the ground… so he just went back to work with the DC10 VLAT ( and pilot ‘Kevin’ ) to do the drop he was lining up right before the deployment happened.

                  That’s the VLAT drop that was captured in one of Globe DOC Crew Staff Officer Anthony Caulfield’s ( 4490red’s ) videos.

                  That VLAT drop started just north of the U-Store-It on the west side of Highway 89 on the north side of Yarnell ( where Caulfield and the rest of the Globe Prison Unit DOC Type 2 Crew was staged at that time )… and the drop extended NORTH from the U-Store-It and out into the foothills beyond Yarnell.

                  As soon as French finished that VLAT drop… he starts handing off ‘Air Attack’ to Rusty Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’.

                  Rusty Warbis had been ‘orbiting’ and watched that drop and asked French if he wanted him to ‘continue that line’.

                  That’s when Thomas French laughs… and says that isn’t even the ‘line’ that he had wanted to be building… and he basically ADMITS to Warbis that it was because he got down to YARNELL way too LATE to even try and do anything else.

                  He tells Warbis what he really wanted to do ( originally ) was start the line close to Yarnell… but he was so late getting down there that the smoke had laid over to the point where it was not safe to even try and do anything to really protect Yarnell proper.

                  So Thomas French was basically recorded ( talking to Rusty Warbis ) saying he knew he had “Dropped the Ball” there near Yarnell… and he was only just dropping on that east flank because that was the only option he left himself after wasting so much time up on the NORTH side of the fire.

                  How do you want these transcripts?

                  Just the A2A side of things… or the A2G traffic actually ‘merged in’ with the A2A traffic?

                  I actually have it both ways… in this timeframe.

                  Reply

                  • Followup…

                    The last A2A channel recording video ends at 5:15 PM… but at that point… Thomas French has already said “Goodbye” to Rusty Warbis… and the very first ‘official’ business that Rusty Warbis did as the new ‘Air Attack’ was receive that radio call from DPS Helicopter Ranger 58.

                    They wanted to ‘lift’ ( circa 5:15 PM ) and go look for Granite Mountain… and Rusty Warbis is the one who gave them ‘permission’ to do so.

                    You can HEAR that right there at the end of the last A2A channel capture video.

                    SIDENOTE: That last A2A channel capture video is just FULL of ‘static’ ( for some reason ) at the beginning… but it does ‘clear up’ to the point whereby from about 5:00 PM onward… the static is gone and you can hear French going ‘back to work’ with the VLAT… and then the ‘handoff’ of Air Attack to Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’ right around the 5:10 PM mark.

                    Also… just FYI…

                    The REASON the A2A recordings END circa 1715 ( 5:15 PM ) is because Eric Panebaker himself was a trained EMT… and since they hadn’t found the GM bodies yet… there was a fire-wide call for all EMTs to help build the ‘medical response’ teams they thought they might need.

                    So Eric Panebaker shut down all the ‘filming’ so he could jump in and try and help the ‘Medical response team’.

                    From Eric Panebaker’s own NOTES file that he supplied to the SAIT along with the videos…

                    ————————————————
                    1723 I stop filming/taking pictures and start helping the Medical response task force.
                    ————————————————

                    Reply

                    • WTKTT,

                      A little added detail to this:

                      “They wanted to ‘lift’ ( circa 5:15 PM ) and go look for Granite Mountain… and Rusty Warbis is the one who gave them ‘permission’ to do so.”

                      They (Ranger 58 DPS crew) heard the mayday radio traffic at approximately 1630 hrs according the their written statement. Within a few minutes Air Ops chief drove up and they asked if he heard that. Air Ops said no, he was on a different frequency at the time (do what??!) The crew of Ranger 58 told him what they were capable of for rescue (short haul, staging area, etc) They proceeded to load their helo with rescue equipment in anticipation of launch for medical aid to the crew in distress. According to their written statement, only a few minutes later they were ready to go. I’m saying this time would be around 1635-1640 hrs, or however long it would take to brief the Air Ops on their capabilities and load the aircraft with gear. However, they were not cleared to launch on this mission until 1715 and they launched at 1716, according to Ranger 58 crew statements!

                      Why the delay of approximately 35 minutes? Is one reason possibly because there was no AA over the fire at this time? I want to know where each of the ‘revolving’ ‘musical chairs’ AA aircraft were during this time period.

                      Woodsman

                    • Woodsman You are off on your times the crew went under shelters at 1652 with no more communications . It was around 1645 they had there we are in front of the flaming front.

                  • You read my mind. I want to ‘overlay’ A2A with A2G to try and get a full context of WTF was happening from the mayday to Ranger 58 finally being allowed to launch for the search.

                    Multiple failures and potential lessons learned from the air show management is obvious here. It’s my understanding that one of the reasons for the air study is because of a disconnect between air resources and ground resources in terms of coordination. An example of this is dropping on a burnout (that must have pissed some people off). Air drops must be reinforced and coordinated with ground work for maximum effectiveness or it’s just a bunch of cool aircraft painting and bucketing shit all over the countryside.

                    Thanks!

                    Woodsman

                    Reply

                    • I agree with this and I also, generally agree with where WTKTT is coming from regarding Bravo 33 essentially “wasting time” continuing to put in a bunch of retardant and helicopter lines on the north side (over evacuated houses) when the fire was standing up and turning around and turning south to threaten Yarnell and Glen Ilah, which hadn’t been evacuated (another bungling).

                      I just have to believe that the Air 2 Ground recording has to include conversations regarding all of this. The Air 2 Air doesn’t really refer to the decision-making that I believe was going on.

                      I agree with WTKTT that Abel’s “we’ll send Air Support” had absolutely nothing to do with the later deployment prospects. I think it had to do with both the Yarnell/Glen Ilah situation and the Hail Mary plan.

              • “Also… I am still convinced that the ‘Panebaker’ group had similar ‘capture’ recordings for the Air-To-Ground channel as well… that have never seen the light of day.”

                I completely totally 100% agree.

                Ove a year ago I kept commenting, addressed to JD, that we need three more things via fOIA that I don’t know how to do.

                1) Aaron’s original video files (I actually don’t believe he edited them before submitting them)

                2) The Air 2 Ground recording that I’m 99.999% sure was recorded.

                3) The unredacted Blue Ridge Hotshots notes.

                We could move miles and miles forward with these three things.

                Reply

                • I should add to that:

                  4). The files and interviews submitted by the Peeples Valley firefighters.

                  Reply

                  • I got to buy a six-pack for a Native American Idahoan Wildland Fire-Fighter this afternoon today at my Albuquerque 7-11. We chatted about the whitewash that is this investigation. Even the manager of the 7-11 joined in, agreeing.

                    I said, “Take care of yourself, each other, and your crews because the upper-ups aren’t gonna do it!””

                    He high-fived me and thanked me. I thanked him back.

                    My Memorial Day.

                    Reply

                    • Marti:

                      “I said, “Take care of yourself, each other, and your crews because the upper-ups aren’t gonna do it!””

                      That’s the takeaway message, right there. Good job! It doesn’t surprise me that they high-fived you and thanked you. That’s the sad fucking truth of the matter.

                      Thanks for doing that.

                      Woodsman

                    • Woodsman~

                      Yes it is “the sad fucking truth of the matter.”

                      I’ve been meaning to go back and find the comment from Sitta early last summer (I think it was) when s/he said, ultimately, s/he was leaving because s/he no longer trusted the system when it came to safety.

                      It was both telling and heart-breaking.

  44. Muzzy, I did not want to bog down the top section of this chapter with old stuff so I answered you in area you asked it about the mapping out and Charlies mentioned photos and I posted a lot—I wonder wwtktt does google earth allow me to point a to b to c on it so I can create an online map of our exact walk and as well the exact walk we saw the GMHS so it can be compared to people who walk the staff rides—

    Reply

    • >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> I wonder wwtktt does google earth allow me to point a to b to c
      >> on it so I can create an online map of our exact walk and as well
      >> the exact walk we saw the GMHS so it can be compared to
      >> people who walk the staff rides—

      Yes, Joy… that is exactly what Google Earth does best.

      You can create a ‘path’ by clicking on various points… and you can ‘edit’ or ‘move’ any of those points at any time.

      Once you have created a ‘path’… you can then just ‘play’ it as a ‘tour’… and Google Earth can ‘fly along’ that path.

      Reply

      • we will do that this week than Muzzy ok-

        one being our path and one being the path we saw Donut and the men took and a path where we saw Marsh that entire day..ok

        Reply

        • Wow, that would be great! Thanks, Joy. I’m only about halfway through the pix. Enjoying the narration.

          Reading about the air attack, the paths will look like a bowl of spaghetti with near misses, etc. Crazy.

          Reply

    • HI Joy,

      Wow, what a lot of work you’re doing. I think this will be a great resource. , wTKTT, can those maps be shared and combined?

      Reply

      • it will help newcomers to page but it does seem to have a glitch because I am on actual photo page and on address bar I copy then paste to IM the link and post but Woodsman is getting my queer pic of me hugging and kissing my saguaro that I had since a young gal and it just went through a 100 year flood and ended up 1/4 mile down my street and I put it back up and hugged it and said it is going to be fine- the secret is burying it exactly in the right North spot it was originally…and it has survived and bloomed well this year 🙂 when I got it —it was like a foot but now it is about 9-10 feet now—I had the most beautiful aloe dichotoma tree valued into probably the high $70,000 because it grew so amazing and unique as a tree and I also had a rare way of growth aloe ferox that I had a landscaper offer me $7,000 for it and I wish I had taken it because since on the trails a frost got it one time and I laid the skeleton out in Aguila on Sonny’s property because I could no throw it away—my cacti are my kids—I guess I am a fool–I give away valuable things all the time but here I had a valuable item with a solid offer and I declined it due to my heart strings–oh well…God provides some way and some how each and every day…

        Reply

        • I have to plug STAR NURSERY’s Desert Q and SPRAY N GROW for all my uniqueness in my plants and cacti- their products really do work-

          Reply

      • Reply to Muzzy post on May 29, 2016 at 3:38 pm

        >> Muzzy asked…
        >>
        >> WTKTT, can those maps be shared and combined?

        Yes. Google Earth is based on something called KML files ( Keyhole Markup Language ). It’s an XML based file format specifically designed to contain geographic data for ‘Earth browsers’ ( not just Google Earth ).

        Everything you do in ‘Google Earth’ ends up recorded in KML format… and you can then just ‘export’ it ( or even just a ‘part’ of your project like a single ‘path’ ) as a stand-alone KML file. You can send that KML file to anyone else with an ‘Earth browser’ and they can load it right up and see exactly what you created.

        If you have the Google Earth application installed on your computer ( It’s FREE. Just download it from Google )… then if anyone emails you a file with a .kml extension, or you download any file with a .kml extension from the Web… then you can either just double-click the .kml file attached to the email or double-click the .kml file wherever you downloaded it to your computer…

        …and Google Earth will immediately ‘pop up’ with that KML file loaded.

        You are now seeing in YOUR copy of Google Earth what that other person created in THEIR copy of Google Earth.

        It’s that simple.

        Reply

  45. Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on May 28, 2016 at 5:40 pm

    NOTE: This is brought up from a thread down below that was running out of room
    because… well… it’s IMPORTANT.

    >> RTS said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT,
    >>
    >> I don’t recall much of anything about talking with Rory Collins other than they
    >> had a less than desirable briefing that included only the air platform, what was
    >> flying around, and none about who was on the ground and/or where they were
    >> and what they were doing.

    I didn’t know you ( yourself ) actually had the opportunity to talk with the mysterious Mr. Rory Collins.

    When did that happen, if you don’t mind me asking?

    Was he ( Collins? ) actually THERE for the ‘Family (Beta) Staff Ride’?

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> French did say that they had to divert or ‘park’ the VLAT off to
    >> the south during all this due to the strong winds.

    If Thomas French actually said that ( at ANY time )… he is an absolute LIAR.

    It’s very late here… but I will show you the PROOF tomorrow.

    Hint: There really are RECORDINGS of all the “Air-To-Air” radio channel communications that afternoon… and everything Thomas French ever said to any other pilot of any other aircraft.

    Reply

    • WTKTT,

      I never talked to Rory Collins nor did I say I did. And he was not at the Family Staff Ride as far as I know.

      Reply

      • Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
        May 29, 2016 at 8:12 am

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> I never talked to Rory Collins nor did I say I did.

        Okay. Copy… but when you said…

        “I don’t recall much of anything about talking with Rory Collins”

        I took that to mean…

        “I talked with Rory Collins, but I don’t recall much of anything about it”.

        My bad, I guess.

        Reply

        • WTKTT,

          Some further clarification.

          This is what I posted: “I don’t recall much of anything about talking with Rory Collins other than they had a less than desirable briefing that included only the air platform, what was flying around, and none about who was on the ground and/or where they were and what they were doing.”

          This was in the context of the conversation between Bravo 33 Tom French and John Burfiend and all of us present at the GHHS Fatality Site where they were describing their Air-to-Air conversation with AA Rory Collins.

          I should have posted: “I don’t recall much of anything about THEM (French and Burfiend) talking with Rory Collins ….”

          Reply

          • Gotcha. That matches testimony from French / Burfiend that was recorded in the SAIT interview notes as well.

            They ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) said they had no frickin’ idea that the Blue Ridge Hotshots were even THERE in Yarnell that day until they got home and heard about them on CNN.

            Reply

    • While we are looking at the AA radio discussion you should note at 4:27 and probably even earlier there was a Huge Smoke column that the AA had to fly above that was at 6000 feed and he was still popping smoke as flying through it.

      During that same time The Granit Mountain was headed down that canyon.
      Heavy smoke cloud would have been visible from the Canyon A serious and critical warning that was evidently ignored by GM. I would say that column was building and visible as much as 15 minuets earlier. That would be at the time the crew was at the saddle or just below it.

      At that point they were in risk mode to out run the fire.
      Steed was Arguing with Marsh according to Mike Dudley.
      They had NO LOOK OUT and went down in to a Brush Filled Canyon.
      If Marsh was out of the Canyon he would have seen the Threat and stopped the Crew.
      They through ever thing out the window—The 10, The 18, and LCES
      Again at that point it was their decision to beat the fire
      with no safety plan but to head to BSR.

      There is no one else at this point to blame but Marsh and Steed
      They killed them self’s and their crew.

      The information is right there in front of us in the AA Radio traffic.
      23 plus Minuets before the Deployment.

      It did not need to happen—- there is no one else to blame.
      They had all the warning in the Fire Activity–The Winds—The Box Canyon—The Brush unburned—All of the other warning.

      Who says the 10 and 18 would not have saved them??? They are all staring every one right in the Face.

      Not much else to say here it is in black and white. Make your own choices.

      And I never said there was no cover up by overhead or the investigation.
      The shit was 10 ft. deep in any direction.

      To the Families they Should have Sued the State the Overhead on the Fire and the Division Supervisor that ordered the Crew off the Mountain——MARSH/and The Crew leader that took them down into that hell hole.—STEED

      Reply

      • So… in the same post you say there is “No one else to blame but Marsh and Steed” ( at least TWICE ), and then you end the post saying it was ’10 feet deep’ all over the place and the families should have sued the shit out of EVERYONE?

        I agree.

        Marsh and Steed may have been DIRECTLY responsible for the bad decision making that led to the deaths of all the men in their care… but there is still PLENTY of ‘blame/responsibility’ to go around on this one.

        And the whole ( COMPLETE ) ‘story’ hasn’t been fully told yet.

        People are ( and have always been ) being ‘protected’ on this one.

        Reply

        • WTKTT —– I have said that before on many occasions the entire Fire was a Chinese Fire Drill. The team was playing catchup all day they had no over all plan of what they were doing. There was just a bunch of little plans that had no immediate solution. The cause was the IC and OPS who were not qualified to handle a fire of this size.

          Most FF past and current would have gone into a take care of your crew and your self by Noon. Keep your SZ close post a top notch LO and be very judgmental about what you are asked to do. There is not a 30 year FF out there that has not run into that situation more than Once in their carrier.

          Reply

        • Calvin That is still a very open unknown. We only knew he was ahead of the crew not where he was.

          He may have been in front of them but if he could have seen what was going on at say 4:20 to 4:27 why would he have allowed the crew to continue?????

          If he did then he was truly a personal factor in their deaths.
          Because he did not warn them when they had time to escape back out or at least to the Rocks. I still do not believe he could see the Fire.

          The Smoke should have been a warning that they all would have seen along with a very loud Burning sound similar to a Jet Engine.

          If you have ever thrown a branch full of pine needles on a fire and multiplied that sound 10,000 plus you could know what it sounded like. With the wind it sounds like a giant Blow torch.

          Reply

        • Reply to calvin post on May 29, 2016 at 1:09 pm

          >> calvin said…
          >>
          >> I thought we had pretty much accepted that Marsh was the lookout?

          Only the people who were hearing ALL of that radio traffic over the GM intra-crew radio channel ( Brendan Mcdonough, at least 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots moving GM vehicles, many others? ) could say whether there was any specific PROMISE on Marsh’s part ( back to Jesse Steed ) that he ( Marsh ) would act as their ‘forward lookout’ for that risky move.

          It may, however, have just been ASSUMED ( by Jesse Steed ) that if Marsh had finished his ‘scouting trip’ and was far enough ‘down there’ to give them the OK ( or the ORDER? ) to “come on down here now”… that Marsh WOULD be acting as their ‘Forward Lookout’ and would certainly tell them if there was anything to worry about as they hiked towards his ( Marsh’s ) location.

          If it happened that way… then that was obviously a FATAL assumption on Jesse Steed’s part.

          If Eric Marsh was SUPPOSED to be acting as the ‘Forward Lookout’ for those men hiking towards wherever he was… then he FAILED that task in an absolutely HORRIFIC manner.

          Reply

  46. NOTE: Brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.

    A continuation of the discussion about the long-standing mystery of whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ ever actually ‘flew down’ from the NORTH side of the fire and ‘checked’ on Granite Mountain.

    Thomas French and John Burfiend testified to the SAIT that it was THEIR idea to ‘fly down’ and check on Granite Mountain, and they asked OPS ( Abel ) if he wanted them to do that… but he said “Not necessary. They are in the safe black”, so French and Burfiend went about their business and NEVER actually flew down to the SOUTH side of the fire ( or any other flank ) to ‘check’ on Granite Mountain.

    However… in his ADOSH testimony… OPS1 Todd Abel totally contradicts this ‘story’ and basically calls French and Burfiend LIARS. Todd Abel told ADOSH that HE was the one who requested that THEY go ‘check on Granite Mountain’… and that they DID… and then they ( French and Burfiend ) reported back to him ( Abel ) that everything was find and dandy with Granite Mountain.

    The SAIT went with the version of this ‘story’ as told by French and Burfiend. That is what they actually PUBLISHED in their final SAIR document, making OPS1 Tod Abel the ‘LIAR’.

    >> On May 28, 2016 at 4:03 pm, Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> would have to say Todd Able in this case was not accurate in his memory.

    I’ve posted the following about three times before… but here is just one more piece of proof that French and Burfiend really were the ones telling the TRUTH here… that they never actually flew down and ‘checked’ on Granite Mountain at all… because OPS1 Todd Abel said it wasn’t necessary.

    It wasn’t until 4:25 PM that Thomas French got done ‘fucking around’ with his little retardant line project on the NORTH side of the fire and lifted a finger to head down to the ‘other’ end of the fire… like Rory Collins TOLD him to upwards of 38 minutes earlier and French had also said at that time he was “headed that way”.

    Thomas French then diverted an inbound SEAT to the ‘other’ side of the fire and headed down that way to meet him.

    When he finally got down there… he discovered that he had wasted so much time up on the NORTH end ( since 3:50 PM ) that the smoke cloud was now ‘laying down’ and the only place to make any safe retardant drops was on the EAST flank of the fire… near the NORTH end of Yarnell… by the U-Store-It facility.

    And this is where we HEAR him telling the SEAT pilot “This is my FIRST TIME DOWN HERE”.

    ———————————————————————————————
    ( WITH THE LATEST DC10 VLAT 911 DROP AND THEN THE )
    ( ADDITIONAL TAG-AND-EXTEND WITH SEATS 874 AND 830, FRENCH )
    ( IS NOW FINALLY SATISFIED WITH HIS LITTLE PROJECT ON THE NORTH END SO )
    ( HE NOW SAYS ‘PLANS HAVE CHANGED’ AND WE SEE HIS ATTENTION )
    ( TURNING TO THE ‘EAST FLANK’ OF THE FIRE… DOWN SOUTH TOWARDS YARNELL )

    +37:10 ( 1625:08 / 4:25:08 )
    (B33 – French): Tanker 413 Bravo 33… uh… plans have changed. I’ll meet you on the… uh.. east side of the fire… kind of the southeast side… and… but you can maintain… uh… fifty-five, okay?

    +37:24 ( 1625:22 / 4:25:22 PM )
    (B33 – French): You got it… and I’ll be at six thousand ’till I getcha in sight.

    ( 46 SECOND PAUSE – NO RADIO TRAFFIC )
    ( THOMAS FRENCH WAS NOW APPARENTLY ‘TRAVELING’ TO THE OTHER )
    ( SIDE OF THE YARNELL FIRE FOR THE FIRST TIME )

    +38:10 ( 1626:08 / 4:26:08 PM )
    (B33 – French): Kilo Alpha, Bravo 33.

    +38:13 ( 1626:11 / 4:26:11 PM )
    (5KA): Go ahead… just off the drop.

    +38:15 ( 1626:13 / 4:26:13 PM )
    (B33 – French): Hey.. uh… just… uh… we got… we got another DC10 comin’ and we’re gonna be working this east flank now. There’s a chance I may hold you at the drop… so just… uh… heads up on that.

    +38:26 ( 1626:24 / 4:26:24 PM )
    (5KA): Okay. No problem at all. You let me know what ya need and I can make it happen.

    +38:29 ( 1626:27 / 4:26:27 PM )
    (B33 – French): Yea… I’ll probly hold ya at the drop… see… kinda in the same place you been workin’.

    +38:35 ( 1626:33 / 4:26:33 PM )
    (5KA): Okay. Understood

    ( 41 SECOND PAUSE – NO RADIO TRAFFIC )

    +39:16 ( 1627:14 / 4:27:14 PM )
    (Tanker 413): Bravo four.. I’m sorry… three three… tanker four one three is comin’ up by these antennas on the southeastern side over here.

    +39:23 ( 1627:21 / 4:27:21 PM )
    (B33 – French): Okay copy that… I don’t have ya… I’m up at… uh… six thousand poppin’ smoke and I need to look at some stuff… just… uh… hang tight… let me know if ya got me in sight.

    +39:32 ( 1627:30 / 4:27:30 PM )
    (Tanker 413): No joy yet… I’ll just circle out here by these antennas.

    +39:39 ( 1627:37 / 4:27:37 PM )
    (Tanker 413): Just picked you up… you’re behind me… yea.

    +39:50 ( 1627:48 / 4:27:48 PM )
    (B33 – French): Okay… stay there. ( Garbled transmission ). We’re… uh… probly gonna be puttin’ somethin’ in in front of these structures here but… uh… this is my first time here let me go check it out.

    +40:02 ( 1628.00 / 4:28:00 PM )
    (Tanker 413): Sounds good.
    ———————————————————————————————

    So, since it really was French’s FIRST TIME THERE ( near Yarnell )… he really did still need more time orient himself and even try to figure out what could possibly be done at this late time… with the smoke cloud now fully ‘laying down’ and blocking any attempts to try and protect any part of Yarnell proper or Glen Ilah.

    French spent another FIVE MINUTES doing that. Just trying to ‘figure out’ what to do.

    By the time Thomas French even ‘figured out’ what was possible… it was now actually MORE than 40 ( FORTY ) minutes since 3:50 PM, when Air Attack Rory Collins had first told him to start shifting his attention to the YARNELL side of the fire.

    So if Thomas French is heard ( recorded ) at 4:27 PM telling Tanker 413 (quote) “this is my first time here”… then that’s just more proof that they ( French and Burfiend ) are the ones telling the TRUTH about not having ever actually ‘flown down to check on Granite Mountain”… and just more proof that OPS1 Todd Abel was the one who was LYING to ADOSH about this ‘event’.

    Reply

    • I think it is inappropriate to be saying the North retardant line was “fucking around or wasting time.”

      AA is given the assignment to lay retardant on priority targets as they become possible.

      If the AA could not go to the south side for a mission due to visibility, weather, turbulence etc, what choices do they have?

      Strengthen North Flank….

      Orbit and do nothing…

      Return to airport…..

      If the South side was not an option, AA is usually given free reign to put mud down on any feasible target that they have a good chance of protecting values at risk.

      Until you have done the role, it is not as simple as black and white, sort of like everything on the Fireline.

      Reply

      • You are absolutely right. By 3:50 the priority became protecting Structures where they could. Stopping the advance into Yarnell and Glen Isla. Even then the wind was a major problem to accuracy.

        Reply

          • Slowing or stopping the Fire head that was hitting Yarnell Then Glen Isla.
            They did save some homes but the Spot fires were jumping from spot to spot in the subdivisions.
            You can sometimes slow down the flames reducing flam lengths and spotting as they approach structures helping the minimal clearance around Structures.

            Reply

            • Yes, the ones that helped here included the ranch house café on highway 89 and Phil Snyder with their foam and water.

              Fortunately the house I bought is made of rock. The house did not burn but we wonder why since part of the roof did and all around it.

              Reply

      • Reply to Rocksteady post on May 29, 2016 at 11:39 am

        >> Rocksteady said…
        >>
        >> I think it is inappropriate to be saying the North retardant
        >> line was “fucking around or wasting time.”

        Then you haven’t been following the discussion regarding what Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD ‘Bravo 33’ to do ( at 3:50 PM ).

        I was using the term ‘fucking around’ in its ‘intransitive verb’ form, which ( according to online Slang dictionaries ) equates ‘fucking around’ with “wasting time doing something unnecessary”.

        Keyword ( in this case ): “unnecessary”.

        At 3:50 PM, when Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD Thomas French to start shifting his Air Support priorities to the YARNELL side of the fire… it was because the WIND had already seriously SHIFTED and the targets that had BEEN the priority ( on the NORTH side ) were no LONGER the real “priority”.

        Rory Collins’ directive to Thomas French was also (apparently) the direct result of the overall Ground Operations Field Supvervisor ( Todd Abel ) ASKING Air Attack to please now shift their “priorities” to the YARNELL side of the fire… right away.

        >> Rocksteady also said…
        >>
        >> AA is given the assignment to lay retardant on priority
        >> targets as they become possible.

        Thomas French wasn’t the ‘Air Attack’ when he was TOLD by Rory Collins to shift his ‘priorities’ to the YARNELL side of the fire ( at exactly 3:50 PM ).

        Rory Collins was the ‘Air Attack’ at that time. NOT Thomas French.

        Thomas French was working FOR Air Attack Rory Collins, at that moment, and French gave Air Attack Rory Collins the impression that he understood that the winds had shifted, and that YARNELL should immediately be the ‘new priority’ for Air Support… and French even told Collins ( at 3:50 PM ) he was “headed that way” ( as in… ‘right now’ ).

        >> Rocksteady also said…
        >>
        >> If the AA could not go to the south side for a mission due to visibility,
        >> weather, turbulence etc, what choices do they have?

        None of those ‘limitations’ were in place at the time Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD ‘Bravo 33’ to “swing around” and start focusing on YARNELL instead of the NORTH side.

        At 3:50 PM… there WAS, in fact, still TIME to at least make some kind of effort to protect something ( anything ) down in Yarnell proper and the Glen Ilah area(s).

        At 3:55 PM is also when Gary Cordes testified in his Unit Log ( and confirmed to ADOSH ) that he had called OPS1 Todd Abel on the phone and TOLD OPS1 to please tell ‘Air Support’ to focus their attention on YARNELL right away… and to go ahead and PLEASE start “Dropping at WILL” to save whatever they could while there was still time.

        Pretty hard to start “Dropping at will” when you aren’t even bothering to fly down to that side of the fire… wouldn’t you say?

        Thomas French wouldn’t even ARRIVE down there in the vicinity of Yarnell until around 4:25 PM when he is heard telling this SEAT pilot to ‘standby’ because (quote) “This is my FIRST TIME DOWN HERE”.

        >> Rocksteady also said…
        >>
        >> If the South side was not an option, AA is usually given free reign to
        >> put mud down on any feasible target that they have a good chance
        >> of protecting values at risk.

        I still don’t think you are “getting it”.

        At the time that ‘Bravo 33’ was INSTRUCTED by the actual acting Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) to “swing around” and to shift their focus to the YARNELL side of the fire… there were still PLENTY of ‘options’ down there.

        But not for long.

        If anything was going to happen… it needed to happen QUICKLY ( like before the smoke column laid over and ground visibility was reduced to ZERO ).

        Thomas French ( who was still WORKING for ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins at 3:50 PM ), acknowledged this and TOLD his boss ( Collins ) he was “headed that way” ( down to YARNELL ).

        And then he simply DID NOT GO.

        He opted to just continue ‘filling in’ some holes in an already pretty solid line of retardant that was now only protecting just a few stuctures that weren’t even that threatened anymore because of the wind shift… instead of realizing that an entire TOWN and an associated SUBDIVISION was under immediate threat and needed any/all protection efforts they could get… like RIGHT NOW.

        He just got ‘anal retentive’ about the little ‘project’ he’d been working on ( in an area with just a few structures ) instead of realizing an entire TOWN on the OTHER side needed him down there RIGHT AWAY.

        It wasn’t NECESSARY for him to do that. He just WANTED to ( because he’s some kind of nit-picking perfectionist, or something ).

        So yea… if an Urban Slan dictionary defines ‘fucking around’ as ‘wasting time doing something unnecessary’… that what Thomas French was actually doing between 3:50 PM and 4:25 PM ( versus what he was TOLD to do and SHOULD have been doing instead ) meets that classic definition… big time.

        Thomas French DROPPED THE BALL that day.

        It’s all there in the Air-To-Air radio channel recordings.

        Reply

        • WTKTT

          I can type until my fingers fall off and you will never understand how incredibly busy and dynamic fire fighting.

          Just because you state times and conversations from testimony, does not mean you know anything occurring that fill in the blanks.

          For all you know AA and his pilot were having a discussion about winds, fire behaviour, next runs, reload times etc.

          AA is a specialty position that combines fire fighting with keeping the planes safely in the air.

          Please don’t state opinions as facts, considering you have never done the job.

          Even better,see if you can backseat with AA on a busy fire. You will get a whole new appreciation of multitasking and chaos.

          Reply

          • You are trying to shoot the messenger.

            Save your fingers.

            Go and listen to the Air-To-Air channel recordings.

            They are ALL sitting in this online folder…

            https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABsWIxpJqjgl7GDgeB8sQ8ua/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video_with_134175_audio?dl=0

            It wasn’t nearly as ‘chaotic’ as you are imagining.

            There is simply a STORY being told there about WHY, even after his ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins TOLD ‘Bravo 33’ to refocus their priorities to the YARNELL side of the fire… and even after Thomas French said he WOULD do that ( right away )… he did NOT.

            And it has nothing to do with ‘chaos theory’.

            It has to do with someone in an airplane deciding to just do whatever the fuck HE wanted to do… versus what he had been TOLD to do… and the window of opportunity to provide any Air Support for the town of Yarnell proper and the Glen Ilah subdivision was subsequently LOST.

            And don’t forget to listen to the ‘swap out’ when Thomas French handed off ‘Air Attack’ to Rusty Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’.

            French basically admits to Warbis that he ( French ) didn’t get to Yarnell in time to do what needed to be done.

            Reply

            • Even with all you had to say I would still have to agree with Rocksteady.

              There is a lot more than you are posting that is going on.
              There are other Freq. that are not being copied.

              There are other factors at play like keeping Planes and Helicopters apart coordinating efforts.

              Were Helicopters working Yarnell?
              The winds were causing the same problems in Yarnell that they were later on the South end of the fire.

              You can not drop accurately in front of a 20 MPH wind.

              AA can request but lead plane has the options to GO or Not GO.

              Maybe you remember the close call between a Air Tanker and a Helicopter? The Helicopters were flying out of Yarnell a much better alternative to pin point drops at 50 to 100 feet and would have been a hazard to Fixed wing. Just my thoughts.
              Where were the Helicopters? They were doing drops near or in Yarnell. Cant mix the two.

              A lot going on we are not hearing. I have tried to explain that before.
              You need to check more of the data before throwing the Blame around. Some has not been given to us. Like all the Helicopter Traffic. I doubt any of that was copied.

              You are making assumptions without all the Information.
              How many Air Tankers were circling the Fire at that time?
              How many were headed to refill?
              How many were in route Back?

              I think there were only Two heavy’s assigned to the Fire is that right?
              Check the arrival times the drop times and return times might be part of that 40 Min. time frame.

              Well I could go on But I hope you get the point……….

              Reply

              • According to the Resource Orders on the 30th there were only TWO TWPE 2 Air tankers that came on duty at Base around 0700 and 0900.

                A DC10 was also there in that same time frame.
                The SEATS— from what I can tell by 1500 the first had 8 hours.
                by 17oo the second was pushing 8 hours
                That’s normal shut down for air craft/At least it use to be.
                There was a third that went on around 1700-1800

                So at the critical time only the DC10 was in the Air at 1500 to 1700 max 10 drops depending on sequence.

                Reply

                • If you are only now trying to figure out which aircraft were ACTUALLY over Yarnell the afternoon of June 30, 2013… have a look at the NOTES file that Eric Panebaker submitted to the SAIT along with his ‘Air Study’ videos.

                  It’s accurate.

                  Reply

              • >> Bob Powers said…
                >>
                >> Were Helicopters working Yarnell?

                You’re kidding me now, right?

                >> A lot going on we are not hearing. I have tried
                >> to explain that before.
                >>
                >> You need to check more of the data before
                >> throwing the Blame around. Some has not been
                >> given to us. Like all the Helicopter Traffic.
                >> I doubt any of that was copied.

                You are obviously totally clueless about what was happening in the Air that day… and what really is in the evidence record and the recordings… that there is no point continuing this conversation.

                PLEASE go and listen to the Air-To-Air channel recordings.

                They are ALL sitting in this online folder…

                https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABsWIxpJqjgl7GDgeB8sQ8ua/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video_with_134175_audio?dl=0

                Reply

            • I just want to say, I’m with you on this, for the most part. But we’re just civilian keyboard warriors who have spent the past three years examining and documenting the existing digital evidence. I respect the viewpoints of those who are or who have been there “in the trenches.”

              Here’s what bugs me in this at this point. French was just the “Lead Plane Pilot.” He wasn’t actually “in charge” of anything. His superiors were AA Collins and Bob Burfiend. His job was to move planes and helicopters around. His job wasn’t to do the strategizing.

              The actual strategizing job and authority regarding this shift went from Collins to Burfiend, not to French, unless I’m missing something. It was Burfiend’s job to map out the changed strategy, unless I’m missing something. And, unless I’m missing something, that process of changing the strategy would have had to have been in coordination with people on the ground, i.e. would have been communicated over Air 2 Ground, not Air 2 Air.

              Am I missing something????

              Without the Air 2 Ground recording (which I believe 99.999% has to exist somewhere — Hello???? — in the Air Study Project collection), we have no clue what was being communicated back and forth between Burfiend and the Overhead on the ground in the middle of all of this. I truly don’t believe there is nothing there. How could there be nothing there?

              This was during a time period when there was a Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line from Glen Ilah to the Boulder Springs Ranch conjured up and implemented, during this period starting around 3:40-ish. Why is it it completely unrealistic to think that that would have included some kind of air support??

              Reply

              • Marti,

                You are on the right track. French (oilot) is flying the plane and taking orders from others. You damn skippy there was a lot going on on A2G that would provide serious context to the whole picture.

                It is NOT unrealistic to think that the ‘hail mary plan’ would have included air support. Recall Abel said: hunker and be safe, we’ll get some air support down there asap. (I still want to know why a crew and DIVS needs air support for ‘hunkering’ and ‘being safe.’)

                By the way, I did read your posts down below and responded today. Tell me if I interpreted what you were saying correctly.

                Woodsman

                Reply

                • Thanks for the reply and I appreciate that you think I”m on the right track.

                  “(I still want to know why a crew and DIVS needs air support for ‘hunkering’ and ‘be safe.’)”

                  Yeah, it’s still quite mystifying.

                  Reply

              • Reply to Marti Reed post on
                May 30, 2016 at 4:53 pm

                >> Marti Reed said…
                >>
                >> Am I missing something????

                Well… yes and no.

                There is actually a line in the SAIT interview notes that CONFIRMS what you are assuming… when Thomas French supposedly turned to John Burfiend right after Rory Collins left the fire and said to Burfiend…

                “Hey dude… YOU are the Air Attack”

                …but if you listen to the Air-To-Air channel recordings there is no doubt that Thomas French also thought HE was ‘in charge’ of a lot ( all? ) of the ‘strategizing’ that would then take place for the next HOUR.

                See a longer reply up above as a new parent comment…

                http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-337682

                Reply

    • +39:32 ( 1627:30 / 4:27:30 PM )
      (Tanker 413): No joy yet… I’ll just circle out here by these antennas.

      why they mentioning Joy?

      Reply

      • No Joy is like saying “No Luck Chuck” “no can do”, “ain’t gonna happen”, “mission impossible “

        Reply

      • What Rocksteady said.

        In this particular case… Thomas French ( pilot of ‘Bravo 33’ aircraft ) was asking the pilot of SEAT Tanker 413 if he “had him in sight yet” down there on the Yarnell side of the fire.

        Pilot of Tanker 413 says “No joy, yet” ( Meaning “No. I don’t have you in sight yet” ).

        Reply

  47. the only way one can hike like I do with passing kidney stones is unfortunately with pharmaceutical otherwise I was jabbing and jerking in intense pain like I did from midnight to four.

    However, I know I have some pending emails to reply at some point to- yet for now when I get done with my doctor task of walk I prefer at this point to peak at my brothers’ emails; one with a troubling brain tumor and the other sharing the delights of Memorial weekend of my niece and nephew in their pool looking so happy- it brings me back to the days you could not get me out of a pool- from disciplined exercise Olympian routines to simple playing Marco Polo fish out of water or playing Mermaids and I played it so well I grew fins-

    H A P P Y M E M O R I A L D A Y to you all here-

    so if there is anything fishy still in the YHF is that there are so many who know details but opt to omit, redact, edit and black out areas or people like Crystal who do POP-INS and say I KNOW MORE and we all JUST WAIT until more surfaces but WHY would a person go that far to post just that unless there IS more- now Sonny for the recent FOIA I received I knew that was happening when Bill Boyd said the families lawyer had a concern so knowing the questions were asked and maybe were answered—it hurts because I eyewitness the fire up close and I think I earned the right to have those answers too- I do not need to know the GMHS family questions answers but there were plenty more ?s than there ?s-

    I loved Joy H.’s post it notes-

    Also, I seem to think Brendan does not know much more like some think but that’s just my take on the kid- as you saw I gave him FIVE stars on his book on Amazon because I feel for him—
    yet I do know what he shares now is not what he faced 6-30-13 and he is doing his best to go forward and show his daughter he CAN go forward-

    alot of areas do not add up in public information of the YHF and someone privately is going to help me on that area while I get well- once I get to that email and sit down and right out my pending ?s of the YHF-

    It is not just the kidney stones—I am meeting with breast surgeon soon and Renal/Colon surgeon. I also finally made appointment with brain surgeon. I have to- my body is day in and out just making life unbearable with severe pain to live a happy productive life and why I say I know I am not the right element to the site but I owe always a never ending apology for my child like tantrum behaviors to RTS, Bob, Gary, Elizabeth, John D and M, AM, HN because when I go back and look when I was deeply frustrated or in deep pain I see a pattern of toddler behavior of what is in my opinion inappropriate etiquette speaking to people I actually DO like and respect- so I own up my behaviors and say sorry but each time I try to say I won’t do it again but then I see I do but than I think that’s like telling a true Irish man- why do you drink? It is how I was born and groomed or lack of groomed and guided and this is a new path to me to interact online. Well enough rambling- enjoy the Holiday weekend 🙂 PLEASE eat a burger and hot dog for me as I still am doing the BRAT (banana, rice, applesauce, toast) regimen.

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/93/b8/9e/93b89e34678af2fd47728dd1c6e2c5a1.jpg

    Reply

    • And Joy, not only you have earned the right to know what is this truth in the incident, but every person that has lost a loved one, every person that lost a home in this fire and every tax payer that has seen millions of tax payer dollars expended when a simple lightening fire could have been doused the first day-not to mention the young man who is hired to do a job as dangerous as wild land fire fighting.

      Reply

  48. **
    ** WHICH HOTSHOT CREW IS LESS LIKELY TO KILL MY OWN SON?
    **
    ** EVEN HOTSHOTS ASK THEMSELVES THAT QUESTION.

    John Dougherty’s / InvestigativeMEDIA’s recent article about Mike Dudley and the SAIT choosing to ignore important information/evidence about Granite Mountain is now appearing in many other places.

    Such as…

    http://m.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/smoke-screen/Content?oid=6230636

    An interesting comment has already appeared just a few hours ago on that reprint of the article…

    ————————————————————————————–
    Comment by: Mark Hostetler – 05/26/2016 – at 9:09 AM

    Thank you Dave Provencio and Fred Schoeffler for telling the truth. Experienced leadership and non-hero based decision making on a hotshot crew or any fire crew is what keeps young, relatively inexperienced, crewmembers alive. My son, who Dave knows so well, has been exposed the past 16 years to the most extreme wildland fires in history. He is now leading a hotshot crew and I fully believe he has remained alive and fire wise in part because at the age of 20 I guided him to join the Geronimo Hotshots rather than another hotshot crew. The sole reason I gave him was based on my own experience of working many seasons with the Geronimo superintendent at the time. I emphatically told him, “you are going with Geronimo”, and that I completely trusted the experience and leadership of that superintendent, saying, “He will watch out for you and keep you alive.”
    ——————————————————————————-

    Mark Hostetler is a former Hotshot AND still an active USFS employee with
    a (current) PUBLIC USFS email address.
    https://govtribe.com/person/mhostetler-at-fs-fed-us
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Mark Hostetler Contracting Officer
    Email: mhostetler (at) fs.fed.us
    Name: Mark Hostetler
    Phone Number: (520) 388-8312
    Fax Number: (520) 388-8332
    Position: Contracting Officer
    Agency: Department of Agriculture
    Office: Forest Service
    Location(s): R-3 Southwestern Region/Coronado NF R-3 Southwestern Region
    ——————————————————————————————–

    David Provencio himself ( Former Geronimo Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent ) said almost the exact same thing Mark Hostetler is now saying in his comment… that when it comes to placing their own SON(S) with a a ‘Hotshot Crew’… the primary consideration is “Who is most likely to keep you alive”.

    Sounds like the US Forestry Service really needs an ‘Amazon’ style rating system for ALL of their Type 1 Hotshot crews… since it seems common knowledge that some are more likely to KILL people than others and it’s an actual ‘consideration’ among WFF ‘fathers’ when choosing a Crew for THEIR son(s).

    FOUR STARS – Not likely to kill you.
    THREE STARS – You might, of course, die… but they TRY not to let it happen.
    TWO STARS – You have a 50/50 chance of going home from any given assignment.
    ONE STAR – Make SURE you have accidental death insurance.
    ZERO STARS – Highly likely you WILL die.

    Or should it be the other way around ( the rating system )?

    The MORE ‘Stars’ a Type 1 Crew has… the MORE likely they are to kill you?

    Dunno. Either way would work, I suppose.

    Reply

    • Great way to rate these crews WTKTT and where do we rate the deceased GMHS crew–a big fat ZERO with 19 deaths and the way they came about. Sad but officially true life events that being on a Hot Shot crew requires rating the crew as to your chances of survival.

      Joy did receive the FOIA reports–glancing through them–wonderful questions all the way through and they do clarify a few things. Interestingly all the questions that are there have all the answers–and all those pages are in the black–safe from public eyes. I think McGroder was part of the black out of information. Was it part of the settlement deal that McGroder would keep this vital information hidden? The mystery continues–all we need is the suspense music.

      But it really is amazing the information you can glean despite all the redactions. I did not know French was a federal employee–therefore not accessible for state investigative purposes.

      Reply

      • Well at least you could know from these black out reports what the members of such elite organization had for their dinner–even if they used mustard or not. It is would be rediculous to hand the public such information when the questions everyone wants to know how are how the FS, and employees answered the questions concerning the Yarnell Fire which are totally redacted. It makes for a good book though–human interest?-a about how you like your turkey sandwitch if you were in any way connected to investigating the fire. I wish they had been fed baloney sandwitches for the baloney they feed us about the true events of the fire mismanagement.

        Reply

  49. Reply to Bob Powers post on May 27, 2016 at 7:59 am

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT
    >> You first seem to have no clue about AA and Retardant application.

    Yea. Right.

    And you, sir, just continue to demonstrate that you have no fucking clue what is ( or isn’t ) in the actual evidence record for the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Just like the bullshit you were slinging down below with regards to Howard Carlson and the whole ‘basecamp’ thing. I let that go because I was busy and I’m honestly sick to death of of having to correct you all the time with regards to the FACTS… but if you want to see how wrong you were about all THAT… then just click the upcoming link.

    Some other person ( besides yourself ) who doesn’t know how to actually read the existing evidence records made the same assertions you did down below about how some ‘fire camp’ was being set up in Yarnell the first thing Sunday morning… and that the ‘Coms Unit’ was also fully up and functioning that Sunday morning.

    Just like your posting down below… that is complete horseshit… and if you want to see the detailed evidence that proves it just go read the following link…

    ( Preview clue: Just because the Resource Records say someone was ordered up for the Yarnell Hill Fire doesn’t mean they ever actually showed up… or if they even did… that they were there in the timeframe the resource records say they were ).

    InvestigativeMEDIA
    Article Title: Forest Service ignored information from hotshot leaders about
    Granite Mountain’s history of bad decisions.
    Published: May 18, 2016 By John Dougherty
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/#comment-336698

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> Simply put the Head of the fire when it turned South with 20 plus MPH winds
    >> Was not a priority drop area for many reasons.

    And ( once again )… on WHAT do you base THAT assertion, in the context of what anyone who was actually WORKING the Yarnell Hill Fire may or may not have ‘thought’?

    ( NOTE to people other than Bob Powers who might be reading this. Mr. Powers was NOT THERE at the Yarnell Hill Fire, and when he makes statements like this which appear to be ‘authoritative’ about what did or didn’t happen in Yarnell… he is only basing that on his constant assumption that just because he has seen or heard of things happening a certain way… that that means it MUST have also been what was actually happening on the Yarnell Hill Fire ).

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> The Priority drop areas for the 40 Minuets you say AA was concentrating
    >> on Yarnell and their little project was.

    And once again… you are totally confused. My POINT above ( based on pure evidence ) was that even though ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins TOLD Thomas French to turn his attention to Yarnell ( at 3:50 PM )… and even though Thomas French said he was “headed that way” ( right away )… Thomas French did no such thing.

    Do you even know that there were also these other places called ‘Peeples Valley’ and the “Model Creek Road” and “Miner’s Camp Road” areas?

    Do you know WHERE they were… in RELATION to ‘Yarnell’?

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> It was a the back of the fire where they could drop on Structures
    >> and Spots to save or slow spread into Structures.
    >>
    >> That priority far out wad the Open brush burning and could be done with some success.

    Oh… so I see you HAVE spoken with Air Attack Rory Collins, and he seems to have told you he did NOT tell ‘Bravo 33’ to turn their attention to the SOUTH end of the fire at 3:50 PM?

    What else did Mr. Collins have to say?

    Since even ADOSH was not permitted to talk to Air Attack Rory Collins… whatever else he imparted to you with regards to the ACTUAL ‘priorities’ he was setting that afternoon would be great to hear.

    In the meantime… let’s see what the EVIDENCE RECORD says about these ‘priorities’ that Mr. Collins seems to have just recently told YOU about.

    Let’s see if what Mr. Collins has now told you matches ‘radio recordings’… shall we?

    Starting with this ( at 3:50:39 PM )…

    ——————————————————————————-
    +2:41 ( 1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM )
    (AA – Rory Collins speaking to Thomas French ): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they
    got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah…
    Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to
    check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine
    one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
    ——————————————————————————-

    Other than Rory Collins obviously TELLING Thomas French that the ‘wind has now shifted’ and the fire is now ‘headed towards Yarnell’ and that French needs to “swing around and take a look at that” ( ASAP )… What ELSE do you see there, Bob?

    What OTHER ‘information’ is there at the end of the transmission from Air Attack Rory Collins to Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’?

    ( tick.. tock… tick.. tock… )

    Time’s up. Did you find it?

    Oh… you DID?… that’s good.

    So at the SAME TIME Air Attack Rory Collins is telling Thomas French to turn his attention to the SOUTH side of the fire ( Yarnell )… Collins is also informing Thomas French that VLAT 911 is ‘inbound’ to Yarnell and only 20 minutes away… with a FULL load of fresh retardant.

    And what did Mr. Collins also tell you when you spoke to him he then TOLD Thomas French to DO with VLAT 911 when it arrived… totally FULL of retardant?

    Did it resemble the following actual radio transmission… where we hear Air Attack Rory Collins now ‘setting the priorities’ in this timeframe?

    You know… the part where Rory Collins specifically tells Thomas French it’s OK if he just used the 1 remaining SEAT that’s just arrived to ‘finish up’ his little ‘spot project’ in the Miner’s Camp Road area… but then to be sure and use the inbound VLAT on the SOUTH side of the fire… as soon as possible… because THAT is where the new ‘priority’ should be as soon as possible ( circa 3:51 PM )?

    ——————————————————————————————————
    +3:48 ( 1551:46 / 3:51:46 PM )
    (B33 – French to Air Attack Rory Collins ): Hey… do ya want us to finish up this… uh… this spot project with the SEAT comin’ on scene and… uh… then… move over to… uh… Yarnell? I’m not sure what we can do with a SEAT anyway over there?

    +3:56 ( 1551:54 / 3:51:54 PM )
    (AA – Collins): Yea… copy that… I’m thinkin’ VLAT on the other side when he gets in.
    Yea. That’d be great.
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    Asked and answered.

    French asks Collins if it’s okay to use just that ONE remaining SEAT to ‘finish up’ what he was doing there on Miner’s Camp Road… ASAP… and then he ( French ) will immediately ‘move over to Yarnell’ and use the inbound VLAT 911 ‘down there’.

    And Collins CONFIRMS that ‘Air Support PLAN’ with… “Yea. That’d be great”.

    And then Thomas French did no such fucking thing.

    Rory Collins left the fire… and Thomas French then ended up using inbound Air resources to continue just working on his ‘spot project’ on the NORTH end of the fire… and he never even bothered to go down and check out the actual situation on the SOUTH side ( near Yarnell ) for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.

    And please don’t give me “that’s not what these guys do” bullshit.

    Go and LISTEN to ALL of the Air-To-Air channel recordings before you start saying that people must have done things a certain way just because that’s the way you THINK they are supposed to do things.

    What did Mr. Collins have to say ( when you talked to him ) about Thomas French ending up doing NONE of the things he told Collins he would do circa 3:51 PM, or stick to the ‘Air Support Plan’ that had been AGREED upon?

    Was Rory Collins pissed?… or did he just laugh and say… “Oh… you know… that’s just Thomas French. He’s got some kind of attention deficit disorder, or something. We all know that. He just SAYS he’ll do shit… and then he forgets all about it. Happens all the time with that guy”?

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> One more point
    >> In 8 Minuets the AA could have flown a complete recon around the
    >> entire perimeter of the Fire (5000 AC.) at 500 to 1000 ft. once the
    >> smoke column erupted the AA would not have seen any thing
    >> on the South and west side.

    Your confusion seems to know no boundaries.

    What ‘8 minutes’ are you even referring to?

    Are you somehow referring to the 8 minutes between 3:42 PM ( when we hear OPS2 Musser starting his direct conversation with DIVSA Eric Marsh ) and then the start of the Robert Caldwell video ( at exactly 3:50:08 PM ), when we then hear OPS1 Todd Abel also talking directly to DIVSA Eric Marsh and telling him ( exact quote ) “We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP.”?

    You DO know that there ARE complete Air-To-Air radio channel recordings, right?

    Here is exactly what ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, pilot ) was doing between 3:42 PM and 3:50 PM…

    3:42 PM – French continued to constantly circle on the NORTH end of the fire and clear Helicopter 5KA in and out of the ‘dip’ as it works on trying to protect structures in the Sickles Ranch Road area, where OPS2 Paul Musser has now jumped into the fire as the second fully functioning ‘Field OPS’. He ( French ) continues doing this for the next 6 minutes while he waits there on the NORTH side of the fire for inbound SEAT Tanker 830 to arrive ‘on scene’.

    3:46 PM – SEAT Tanker 830 has arrived on the NORTH end of the fire, and French is taking him right in for a retardant drop in the Miner’s Camp Road / Model Creek Road area(s) ( about where they intersect ).

    3:48:50 PM – Tanker 830 makes it’s retardant drop, with French flying ‘the drift’.

    3:49 PM – French releases Tanker 830 for “load and return”, and then clears Helicopter 5KA ‘out of the dip’ again, where he had been waiting as French and Tanker 830 made the retardant drop there on the NORTH end of the fire.

    3:49:47 – Helicopter NI4HX ( the same yellow/white BLM chopper that was used to insert the Lewis DOC crew on Saturday, and then fly them off the anchor point area on Sunday morning ) calls French and tells him they have been told to leave the Yarnell area ( because of the approaching thunderstorms ) and return to the BLM Weaver Helibase, south of Yarnell. French ‘clears’ them to leave Yarnell airspace.

    3:50:36 – As soon as French is done clearing BLM chopper N14HX for departure from Yarnell… Air Attack Rory Collins calls Thomas French.

    THIS is now the 3:50:36 PM radio conversation detailed above where Air Attack Rory Collins tells French the fire is headed for Yarnell… and to shift his attention to the SOUTH side of the fire… and French tells Collins (quote) “We are headed that way”.

    There is no RECON mission there. Zero. Zip. Nada.

    French was confined to the NORTH side of the fire for the entire time between 3:42 PM and 3:50 PM.

    As for what Air Attack Rory Collins was doing between the time OPS2 Paul Musser was talking to DIVSA Marsh ( at 3:42 PM ) and when we hear OPS1 Todd Abel talking to Marsh and “promising” Air Support… we can hear that in what Rory Collins is now ‘informing’ French about circa 3:50 PM. At 3:50 PM… Rory Collins is now obviously aware that there is a (quote) “heck of a wind shift” taking place, and that the fire is now headed towards Yarnell. So whether or not OPS1 Todd Abel called Collins at 3:50:21 PM, right after talking to Marsh, Collins was fully aware that the Air Support effort now needed to ‘change focus’ to the SOUTH side of the fire… and that’s exactly what he was telling Thomas French to start doing.

    ( Continued next Reply )…

    Reply

  53. http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/20131025tempe-boy-honors-fallen-yarnell-hill-firefighters.html

    https://www.facebook.com/PrescottGraniteMountainHotshots/photos/pb.631937230150376.-2207520000.1464400351./1202766136400813/?type=3&theater

    the young kid is an official red card wildland firefighter now where just a few years ago he was 16y.o. —curious how many became “fans” of a tragedy—I do not comprehend this “fan” mentality?

    Reply

    • >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> photo page 4 of 28- that was Susan and as well Paul Silvia’s
      >> homes- one burnt and one did not.

      On that page 4 ( of 28 ), the house that survived is being incorrectly identified in the photo caption as the Boulder Springs Ranch. It is not.

      Reply

      • terrible huh—it is actually on the other side of the hill- Boulder Springs- that as obvious if you know area is not the ranch but the very area we came out-

        Reply

  57. http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/may/17/local-artist-creates-metal-sculpture-honor-hotshot/

    pretty strange behavior of Prescott locals:

    Beezlebub 1 week, 3 days ago

    Sculpturing is great fun—but I am so over this “hotshot” issue….next item please!

    Upvote1
    Sign in to replySign in to suggest removal

    AzRaised 1 week, 3 days ago

    This “hotshot issue”?? You sir do not belong in this town if you are reffering to the men that lost their lives protecting yours as an “issue” everytime they are honored. How sad that so many people from Prescott are willing to just burry this tragedy and act as if it never happened. These men deserve all the honor they are recieving!

    Reply

  59. CALVIN

    Just to add to your question I spent Tuesday and Wednesday with 50 Wild Land FF all were Hot Shots or Supervisors who worked their way up in Wild Land Fire all retired. To the Man they all said that Marsh and Steed killed their crew. They had the final decision to move and how to move.
    The human factors played a huge part on Marsh’s decisions.

    Reply

  63. https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/

    Yarnell Fire Realities Prescott
    · May 11 at 7:14pm
    Leigh Tolley Bennett
    Leigh Tolley Bennett What is this?
    · May 11 at 5:40pm
    Yarnell Fire Realities
    Yarnell Fire Realities Prescott home of the GMHIC
    · May 11 at 7:15pm

    In above link- Leigh is one who lost her home in YHF and recently in 2016 her cat went amiss-
    it is people like her I keep digging for clarity…
    That fire should of never got out of hand,

    Reply

      • https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/?fref=nf

        Elizabeth Nowicki You keep hanging in there, Brendan. I am so sorry for the nonsense. You keep hanging in there, no matter what.
        · May 19 at 7:00pm

        Also behaviors of stating NONSENSE when in reality the NONSENSE is what has to stop from the people ON the fire and explain in purity that day…answer the questions…why is it so many do not comprehend my trauma in this and it is always Marcia, Marcia, Marcia…I cannot begin to tell you how bad this fire affected me that I have seem to tie it in to all traumas I have seen and that in itself is not healthy because I SEEN trauma no human should ever have to see in my lifetime and I speak up because I want an end to this crap- that is the nonsense that has to STOP…instead I have been picked a part and hey I am not coming into this aftermath of the YHF from a balanced point…my God I wish I was healthy and could give a sound point but I am broken. I was broken before the fire though. I do not have any cough ups like Donut like substance abuse- just saw too much trauma for one person in my days and it’s enough. I am finito with the horseshit. I heard what John MacLean stated about me and his friends apologized- WHY APOLOGIZE? I am really here to ensure this site keeps a breathe but I am in no way a healthy element to the site- because I will always bring out what I “feel” which may not always be the best for the site and its content or hold ground to visit the site if I am rambling- raise your hand how many of you pass by and scroll when you see my name or skim for key words versus “reading” it…see…so I do not care… if I did— I would be on facebook and social media. I am truly not interested in anything but the TRUTHS not the shit people THINK I want to hear about the YHF-
        When I ask questions public it is because I either keep dreaming it over and over and would like someone that knew the men to say NO JOY…this is how it was…but you all just lay silent as I have nightmare after nightmare as I was there and watched the damn inferno right there in front of my own eyes- tornadoes of fire—fire twisters—I watched Donut and the men…and then RTS says some sort of therapy has helped some on the fire and he seen it worked but never public or private has RTS said “Joy, here is a great area to help because I seen it work…” or ever extended himself to even meet us direct while he was in town so to me he has his own agendas and does not connect to his very own email—the human factors—because if he did he would know since long ago I never bought into his bullshit on laying all the blame on the men when there is just too many missing elements. He has his opinion but until all or more missing elements arrive I am not a supporter of such…I get the 10&18 and LCES but until all information comes forward and why they actually walked away from the black…I stay neutral with no theories but many questions and I am bold enough to ask the questions too—

        Reply

        • above I said—I SEEN trauma no human should ever have to see in my lifetime
          I mean outside this YHF

          Reply

        • Joy Above, Understand at the beginning that was Elizabeth Norwicki writing on Donut’s facebook–like so many others playing sympathy toward him–Hell she is a lawyer and should be demanding the truth. I have no sympathy for the lies and withholding of evidence Donut has continued to do. I believe he knows the truth of this mattter and still does not man up. He has had plenty of time to be in his cups and mull over the tragedy that nearly killed him. He is damn fortunate that Marsh and Steed did not take his life as well. I do not see the close bond he claims but even if it were his lack of integrity in this matter needs to be addressed.

          I feel Joy’s frustration and detest the cowardice we have seen concerning people that know the truth, read this site, yet do not have the fortitude to talk. We all have the civic duty in a case like this to be straightforward. If you can not see that true information that keeps hidden involves allowing the system to continue doing these very same things that have killed the 19 good young souls then you need to think deeply of the consequences to future young lives. I am sorry but lives come before sympathy as does truth.

          Anyone who tolerates the avoidance of truth here and the way this thing was managed is guilty of negligence of duty–just as those who had written a fiction in order to cover their asses and to protect the reputation of a system that is killing young wild land fire fighters. Too many people of reputation and long years experience of fire fighting, including some of the worlds finest wild land fire fighter death investigators, many retired as well as long time experienced superintendents of wild land fire fighters, former CIA agent, people of great intelligence in civil and institutional investigations, citizens of educational background along with those of common sense, and others close to the men have agreed that this was one of history’s worst debacles that needs to be addressed and corrected.

          If you want a who’s who list of the finest wild land fire fighters of long experience very disgruntled of how this thing was handled. what we have on the John Dougherty site is only a tip of the ice berg–but a damn good start.

          Sorry but the great majority of the loved ones desire the truth–not fucking sympathy. I know–I did loose a son and sympathy is somewhere between shit and syphilis in the dictionary. Leave it there and tell me the truth.

          Reply

          • Yes, Elizabeth–I am sure Donut by now has had the “laying on of hands”. Has that religious experience caused him to “come clean”. Not to what we see so far. There are a few more that need the “laying on of hands” treatment–maybe laying on of manacles.

            I can see where people are tiring of the baloney we have been fed. A few of the papers, even the Tucson Weekly has come forward with JD’s article exposing the cover up of Provencio and Shoeffler’s emails that were dismissed despite these mens long time credentials in wild land fire fighting.

            Definitely there are some changes and weeding out to be made in the way the wild fires are handled. Much to be said about weening wild land fire fighting from structure fighting–although we would like to see the structure fighter attend to a small thing such as a simple lightening strike. I, with my old miner dad and as a cowboy on Charlie and Grace Ray’s ranch did contain several even in my youth as young as 15 with no problem. Of course we did contact the FS after since they could take to the things if they broke out to a full fledged fire. Common Sense goes a long ways.

            I wonder as do a few others if these lighten strikes are allowed to go farther on purpose. When I see something like the Yarnell fire that was allowed to go into a full fledged wild fire when it could have been easily contained by a few local fire fighters or even citizens I have to ask is there ulterior motives behind such negligent actions? Maybe locals are as much to blame as the local fire departments==we had three departments here in Yarnell, Peeples Valley, and Congress. I don’t know how many men that adds up to but I would imagine close to a hundred on the pay roll, yet not one responded to a desperate situation. Nor did any of the locals–so there is some culpability in all that did not respond–the result was that 19 men died, half the homes of Yarnell and some in Peeples Valley, and multi millions in tax money squandered–all because of this negligence.

            This whole affair is now painted by a false report so that there is no culpability. Bullshit–there is plenty to go around from day one to day three when on June 30, 2013 America lost 19 of the GMHS and history recorded a folly of wild land fire fighting and tried to make it look like only a walk in the park situation that killed the men.

            Reply

        • Joy, I’m raising my hand.

          I posted long ago on IM about the EMDR therapy including the 20/20 YouTube excerpt.

          Sorry you missed it.

          Reply

          • smiles. no problem on sorry I missed it but just wanted to call out you have no interest in every aspect of the fire just what you want to fit into your box and I don’t fit…. I prefer the methods of mindfulness and focus if I opt that way— which currently health-wise- have to

            Reply

            • Joy,

              I definitely scroll though your posts and I read them all because you do have a lot of good information in them. You just have to filter through it all.

              I scroll but I do NOT pass by.

              Reply

        • Joy said:

          “raise your hand how many of you pass by and scroll when you see my name or skim for key words versus “reading” it”

          I read everything you have to say and every link you provide. Sometimes it’s difficult to understand what you’re trying to convey but you have had some really, really great links with some very pertinent information contained therein. Keep it up. You’re heart is true!

          Woodsman

          Reply

            • I thought I was reading a reply from Marti 🙂

              you are not alone Woodsman- I raise my hand up to that—
              I write or post things and go back and say what was the purpose for that?

              shake my head alot—
              I am like ????
              really?
              ok kid.
              but maybe I am like that mute kid who now knows I can talk,type,write…like a puppy when he learns he has a bark and you wish he would just shut up…just need people like you all to set me straight or redirect and guide me when off path…simple.

              No offense ever taken 🙂
              I actually like focus and discipline- my pals who I love dearly when they died I just went on a whatever in the moment non-focus way but in the day if you knew me—I was discipline and focus—I could easily again…I think the current food intake regimen takes focus and discipline—

              I do not know if you ever done a B.R.A.T. regimen Woodsman but it can make one ‘kookie’ without warm yummy choc chip cookies and I have been on it a bit due to vital organ concerns- the projectile vomiting- the naseau- the pain- and God awful pain with headaches it makes one well not a good feeling gal here…three times a day:
              B. 1/4 banana
              R. 1/2-1cp brown rice plain
              A. no sugar applesauce 80 grams
              T, dry plain pumpernickel or dark rye toast
              NO OTHER FOOD INTAKE just that with 1.5-2liters of warm water daily plus one 8 ounce of water and Konysyl sugar free fiber every day of the week. Plus my normal walking/hiking/exercises…we joke and say we are the old married couple here- he is old and I am married but in reality it has been hard for both Tex and I to know another because he lived a rugged mountain way and I lived a whole different desert way. You see Tex would walk until he expired and whereas I walk the shade in the Arizona desert to make sure I can go farther and longer where Tex goes direct in the sun and we have had rough times but that is because I am finely tuned to fine company and fine foods and Tex likes to chill and have a few brewsky amongst a dingy back alley bar when he feels upon to to have them which is not alot…and I am not that make up—so that was a “new” path for me so of course it takes awhile to comprehend it—but bottom line is I either am dropped off here on my husband’s way to work or I crash over like smokejumpers/firefighters and others have and we hike or do explore or work on his yard…but bottom line is we are each others undertakers—I mean caregivers…I do good for him for he cannot hear and I handle phone stuff for him and he does well for me because I pass out and have seizures and he has learned not to rush me off to ER…we are an unlikely pair as Gary and Morgan Loew called it but we have taught one another alot—he despises how much law I do know that he always felt I was FBI because he said I knew more laws than the lawyers and judges…I guess I do–but I try to avoid the BS of modern society so I keep on it and make sure I have all the legal permits and he never heard of them until he met me—even when we met he was like when will a cop ever ask you for one? Well two sheriffs did ask him for one in 2012 so he learned I am only doing right to avoid the modern day horseshit. I have any and all legal permit needed in the state of Arizona. It helps schools/education so why not I tell myself…
              thank you for the words of kindness and yes when it comes to the YHF my heart is very much in it…

              Reply

  64. Reply to Muzzy post on May 26, 2016 at 4:11 pm

    >> Muzzy said…
    >>
    >> I’ve stated before that I find Donut is well named and has no credibility.
    >> I suspect he “heard” about the water drops the same way we all did,
    >> from convos on the videos.

    Agree. I really do think all McDonough meant by that comment in his recent Arizona PBS on-camera interview is that that is what he is ASSUMING Jesse Steed and Robert Caldwell wanted to request from Air Attack at the critical moment when they were finally trying to get John Burfiend’s attention, at 4:39 PM.

    There was never any such actual request… because for 2 and 1/2 minutes, John Burfiend was just fucking IGNORING them and not even giving them the chance to either report their exact location OR actually ASK him for anything at all. Not that there really would have been anything ‘Bravo 33’ could have done, but you still have to wonder what the ‘Helmet Cam’ radio capture traffic would have sounded like IF John Burfiend had NOT decided to just IGNORE them, and would have given them permission to speak to him right after the first ’emergency’ callout at 4:39 PM.

    Instead of more desperate attempts to try and get this Burfiend moron to just “answer the phone”… maybe we we WOULD ( as Brendan has suggested ) have heard them directly reporting their exact location ( as best they could ) and actually ASKING for ‘a drop’.

    So either Brendan is just ‘referring’ to the known 4:39 emergency radio callouts as a ‘request for water drops’ because he is ASSUMING that’s why they were desperately calling out to Burfiend… or Brendan really is referring to some other radio callouts from GM earlier than 4:39 PM that we still don’t know anything about.

    >> Muzzy also said…
    >>
    >> That said, I wonder if whatever coercion led to the decision to leave the
    >> black and re-engage at Glen Ilah or Yarnell was sweetened with an
    >> assurance of air support. Even as I type this, I know that no such promise
    >> can ever be taken seriously in a fire due to rapidly deteriorating flight
    >> conditions that coincide with blow ups. Nevertheless, the exchange
    >> you cited with Abel along with the request from Marsh, which sounded to
    >> me like he had every expection that it would be forthcoming, leads me to
    >> suspect that such a promise tipped the balance toward moving from the black.
    >>
    >> Does anyone else share my suspicions? Who could have made such a promise?

    Muzzy… your question is a GOOD one… and deserves a ‘revisit’ ( along with detail ).

    I apoligize in advance for maybe ‘too much detail’ here… but stick with me for a moment and I promise I’ll ‘bring it home’.

    There were actually TWO separate “decisions to leave the black” that afternoon.

    The FIRST one was when Eric Marsh decided to ‘leave the black’ and ‘scout ahead’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch. We still don’t know EXACTLY when that happened, but the evidence pretty much proves that he must have ‘taken off’ to the south, and away from the ‘safe black’, sometime in the 7 minute period between 3:43:00 PM and 3:50:08 PM.

    The SECOND one was when Jesse Steed told the GM crew to ‘gaggle up’ and leave that last ‘rest spot’ location where all the pictures and video had been taken. The ‘picture taking’ ends abruptly at 3:56 PM… so the consensus is that they ( Steed and the Crew ) actually left the ‘safe black’ sometime in the 8 minute period between 3:56 PM and 4:04 PM, when we also have Wade Parker’s text to his mother hitting the cellular network.

    Since your QUESTION ( at the moment ) is all about the ‘Promise of Air Support’, and what effect that might have on Marsh’s ‘decsion making’… I’m going to skip the detail on when Steed and the Crew might have left the safe black and just focus, for a moment, on more details about what Eric Marsh himself was ‘doing’… and what HE was ‘deciding’… and WHEN…

    ** ERIC MARSH’S DECISION TO ‘LEAVE THE SAFE BLACK’ ( HIMSELF )…

    So the FIRST decision to ‘leave the black’ was when Eric Marsh himself decided to do that and ‘scout ahead’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    We are still ‘assuming’ he embarked on that ‘scouting trip’ all by himself ( as would have been his usual habit ) but we also still do NOT have any actual photographic proof that ALL 18 of the other Granite Mountain Hotshots remained there at that ‘rest spot’ while Marsh was doing this ‘scouting trip’ of his.

    But regardless… the current consensus is that Marsh WAS physically with Steed and the Crew right around the same time that Brian Frisby was ‘stumbling across’ Brendan McDonough, ( right around 3:40 PM ) because the ONLY reason Frisby was in a position to ‘stumble across’ Brendan is because he was headed UP to where he had met face-to-face with Marsh and Steed earlier in the day… and Marsh WOULD have been planning on being right there ( with Steed and the Crew at that ‘rest spot’ along the two-track ) to meet Frisby when he arrived.

    By 3:41 PM ( 1 minute later ), Marsh knew fully well that Brian Frisby was now NOT continuing on up for that ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh requested. That is the moment when Captain Brown did his ‘about face’ on the Cutover Trail ( as per his own GPS Unit ) because Frisby had already gotten permission from Marsh and Steed to move their vehicles and at 3:41 PM is when he asked his Captain Brown to start ‘arranging’ that ( get some drivers… right NOW! ).

    Seconds after that ( 3:41 PM ), someone called DIVSA Eric Marsh and asked for some kind of ‘fireline status report’. We still don’t know who that was… but it has always been assumed it was either SPGS1 Gary Cordes or OPS1 Todd Abel. There is a recording of only the END of this ‘fireline status report’ from Eric Marsh, and not the START of it, so we still don’t know WHO actually ‘initiated’ this radio conversation with Marsh.

    Panebaker Air Study Video 20130630_154232_fire_behavior_EP.MOV
    STARTS at 1542.08 ( 3:42.08 PM ) and lasts for 24.79 seconds.
    ————————————————————————————————–
    NOTE: As this video STARTS… Eric Marsh is actually just FINISHING his ‘report’ about what the fire is currently doing… and although we don’t actually hear him informing whoever it is he is ‘reporting to’ at this moment that the fire has “burned through the retardant line”… it is perfectly obvious that that is what he must have said just seconds before the camera was turned on. Marsh is simply ‘finishing’ that ‘report’ by adding his view of the ‘direction’ the fire is currently headed… ( SOUTH… into Yarnell )…
    ————————————————————————————————–
    +0:00 ( 1542:08 / 3:42:08 PM )
    ( DIVSA – Eric Marsh ): …towards the structures… uh… (pause) southern… uh… (pause) into Yarnell.

    +0:02: ( 1542:10 / 3:42:10 PM )
    ( Foreground person 1 ): (It) burned through the retardant line!
    ( Foreground person 2 – Eric Panebaker ): Um-hmm.

    NOTE: As soon as Marsh finished answering whoever he was talking to… OPS2 Paul Musser calls him directly on an open TAC channel…

    +0:06 ( 1542:14 / 3:42:14 PM )
    (Paul Musser): Division Alpha, Operations Musser.

    NOTE: There is no other background traffic in the remaining 18 seconds of video. We do NOT hear ‘Division Alpha’ Eric Marsh responding to OPS2 Paul Musser request to speak with him by the time the video ends at 1542:32

    VIDEO 154232 ENDS AT 1542:32 ( 3:42:32 PM )
    ————————————————————————————————–

    So we do NOT know exactly when DIVSA Marsh returned OPS2 Paul Musser’s 3:42:14 PM radio callout… but we know that he DID ( sometime in the next 30-60 seconds ). We also do NOT know exactly how LONG that conversation lasted.

    The only ‘next’ piece of solid evidence comes 8 minutes after 3:42 PM… at exactly 3:50:08 PM… when we have Robert Caldwell’s video and his capture of OPS1 Todd Abel talking to DIVSA Marsh over an open TAC channel.

    And in THAT radio capture… we hear Eric Marsh actually breathing heavy and obviously ‘exerting himself’ ( as in… ‘hiking’ somewhere ) and Marsh is now actually TELLING OPS1 Abel that he is (quote) “Working his way OFF the TOP”. As in… coming DOWN off the west ridge and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch already.

    So it’s pretty safe to say that Eric Marsh made HIS ‘decision’ to ‘leave the safe black’ and ‘scout ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ somewhere in those 7 minutes between 3:43:00 PM and 3:50:08 PM, and probably almost immediately after his conversation with OPS2 Paul Musser circa 3:42:30 PM.

    But this also means that Eric Marsh made his own decision to leave the ‘safe black’ and start ‘scouting’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch possibly 7 or 8 minutes BEFORE there was going to be that actual VERBAL “promise” of ‘Air Support’ from OPS1 Todd Abel, circa 3:50:08 PM.

    So he ‘evidence’ is telling us that while OPS1 Todd Abel’s “promise” ( notice the quote marks around ‘promise’… as in… “not a REAL promise but see what I can do” ) might have eventually factored into Marsh’s LATER decision to tell Steed to bring the crew down… it really could not have factored into his own decision to ‘leave the black’ and start ‘scouting’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch, anyway.

    Of course… we still do not know the full content of Marsh’s 3:42:30 PM radio conversation with OPS2 Paul Musser. Paul Musser described that conversation only in the simplest possible terms.

    Musser testified that all he asked Marsh was if GM was ‘available’ at that time. Marsh said “No… we’re still committed to our assignment here on the ridge. Try Blue Ridge if you need Hotshots. They’re closer”.

    And that was the end of it ( according to Musser ).

    No mention of ‘the black’ ( Musser insisted to ADOSH neither he nor Marsh ever mentioned ‘the black’ )… and Musser never mentions there being ANY discussion with Marsh about ‘Air Support’, in THAT conversation ( at 3:42:30 PM ).

    See next ‘Reply’ for a little more detail on the moment when we DO know that someone
    ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) said there WOULD be ‘Air Support’ coming.

    Reply

    • Followup to message above…

      ** THE “PROMISE” OF AIR SUPPORT

      So (apparently) Eric Marsh made his OWN ‘decision’ to leave the ‘safe black’ sometime immediately after talking to OPS2 Paul Musser ( at 3:42:30 PM ) and BEFORE we hear him talking to OPS1 Todd Abel at exactly 3:50:08 PM, in the Robert Caldwell video.

      When the 3:50:08 PM Caldwell video starts… he has ALREADY been talking to OPS1 Todd Abel for an unknown amount of time, and all we hear is the END of that conversation…

      TRANSCRIPT OF THE ROBERT CALDWELL VIDEO
      —————————————————————————————-
      Video filename in the SAIT evidence folder: Robert_Caldwell_IMG_0749_2389.MOV

      The video is only 12 seconds long.

      THIS CALDWELL VIDEO STARTS AT EXACTLY 1550:08 ( 3:50:08 PM )

      +0:00 ( 1550:08 / 3:50:08 PM )
      ( DIVSA – Eric Marsh ): …Yea… I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top.

      +0:04 ( 1550:12 / 3:50:12 PM )
      ( OPS1 – Todd Abel ): Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated…
      ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah…
      we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.

      THIS CALDWELL VIDEO ENDS AT 1550:20 ( 3:50:20 PM )
      ——————————————————————————–

      There is no Panebaker Air Study video which covers this 3:50:20 PM timeframe, so there is also no capture of any ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio traffic immediately following this video… but we DO have an ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel capture that DOES cover this entire 3:50:20 ( and beyond ) timeframe.

      Exactly 16 seconds after the END of the Robert Caldwell video, where we hear OPS1 Todd Abel “telling” Eric Marsh (quote) “we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”, we actually HEAR Air Attack Rory Collins attempting to do EXACTLY that and telling Thomas French ( in ‘Bravo 33’ ) to start directing his attention to the SOUTH side of the fire ( exactly as OPS1 Abel had just told Marsh he would try to arrange ).

      So while we do NOT have radio capture of it… 16 seconds was actually plenty of time for OPS1 Todd Abel himself to make a quick call up to Air Attack Rory Collins for the ‘Air Support on the SOUTH side’ that he had just promised Marsh, and for Rory Collins to now, in turn, be immediately passing that ‘request’ on to Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’.

      And if that is what OPS1 Todd Abel actually did… then it is highly likely that Eric Marsh himself would have then HEARD this request from OPS1 Todd Abel going up to Air Attack Rory Collins over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.

      SIDENOTE: ADOSH was NEVER allowed to even interview Air Attack Rory Collins, and never had the chance to even ask him if it really was OPS1 Todd Abel who asked him to shift attention to the SOUTH side of the fire circa 3:50:21 PM.

      So Marsh would have heard OPS1 Abel actually doing exactly what he had just told Marsh he WOULD do. Abel was now “trying to get some Air Support down there ASAP”.

      Marsh would have also heard Air Attack Rory Collins’ response to OPS1 Abel, which was probably along the lines of just a quick “Okay… we’ll se what we can do”, and then we hear Rory Collins doing exactly that as he immediately now calls Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ on the Air-To-Air channel.

      So here it is… at exactly 3:50:26 PM… and just 16 seconds after OPS1 Todd Abel had finished telling Eric Marsh (quote) “we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”,

      ** THE AIR-TO-AIR RADIO EXCHANGE BETWEEN AIR ATTACH RORY COLLINS
      ** AND THOMAS FRENCH, WHERE COLLINS TELLS FRENCH TO TURN HIS
      ** ATTENTION TO THE ‘SOUTH’ SIDE OF THE FIRE.
      ——————————————————————————
      Air-To-Air channel radio traffic from Panebaker video 20130630_1628_EP

      +2:38 ( 1550:36 / 3:50:36 PM )
      (AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.

      +2:40 ( 1550:38 / 3:50:38 PM )
      (B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.

      +2:41 ( 1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM )
      (AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.

      +2:58 ( 1550:56 / 3:50:56 PM )
      (B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.

      +3:00 ( 1550:58 / 3:50:58 PM )
      (AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha

      +3:05 ( 1551:03 / 3:51:03 PM )
      (B33 – French): Ground contact Alpha.
      —————————————————————————-

      So according to this ‘evidence’… it looks like OPS1 Todd Abel did EXACTLY what he had told Eric Marsh he was going to do, in their 3:50:08 PM conversation captured in the Robert Caldwell video.

      It appears that the moment OPS1 Todd Abel was done talking to Marsh ( and making that ‘promise’ about “getting Air Support down there ASAP” ),Todd Abel IMMEDIATELY made a call up to Air Attack Rory Collins ( at 3:50:21 PM, on the Air-To-Ground channel ) and asked Collins to refocus the Air Support to the SOUTH side of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      Air Attack Rory Collins ‘acknowledged’ that request from OPS1 Abel ( also over the Air-To Ground channel which Marsh would have been able to hear )… and then Collins also IMMEDIATELY got on the “Air-To-Air” channel with Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’, told him about the ‘wind shift’ and that there was now a LOT of fire headed towards Yarnell… and he told Thomas French to start shifting his attention to the SOUTH side of the fire and to “swing around and take a look at that”.

      So if that’s the way it went down… in just those scant 55 seconds between the start of the Robert Caldwell video and then the end of Rory Collin’s conversation with ‘Bravo 33’… then Eric Marsh would not have heard what Collins was saying to ‘Bravo 33’… but Eric Marsh most likely WOULD have heard OPS1 Todd Abel trying to make good on his 3:50:08 PM promise of “Air Support” for the SOUTH side of the fire.

      But what NONE of these men knew at that time ( Eric Marsh, Todd Abel and Rory Collins ), is that even though Thomas French would ‘acknowledge’ Rory Collins’ 3:50:39 report to him about how much fire was now headed into Yarnell, and Thomas French would TELL Air Attack Rory Collins that he was ‘headed that way’ ( to the SOUTH side of the fire )…

      …Thomas French did no such thing.

      Rory Collins left Yarnell Air Space just 8 minutes later, at 3:58 PM, because his pilot was ‘timing out’ on his hours.

      When Rory Collins left Yarnell and both he and John Burfiend assumed both ‘Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities… they forgot all about the ‘promise’ they, themselves had made to Rory Collins at 3:50:56 PM about ‘heading that way’ ( to the SOUTH side of the fire ).

      French and Burfiend just continued with the ‘project’ they had been doing there on the NORTH side of the fire, even though the wind had ALREADY shifted and the threat there on the NORTH side had already pretty much abated.

      They used the available SEAT and the inbound VLAT to ‘finish up’ their little retardant line project there near Miner’s Camp and Model Creek Road… and it would be a full 40 ( FORTY ) minutes before they would finally do what they had told Rory Collins they would do at 3:50:56 and turn their attention to the SOUTH side of the fire.

      So for FORTY MINUTES, starting at 3:50:20 PM, DIVSA Eric Marsh could have been under the impression that the ‘Air Support’ was going to show up on the SOUTH side of the fire at ANY MOMENT… and BEFORE they smoke column laid down.

      But Eric Marsh had no idea, the whole time he was ‘scouting’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch and then (apparently) ordering Granite Mountain to “come down here… ASAP”… that Thomas French and John Burfiend would NOT be doing what they told Rory Collins they would do… and they kept fucking around with their little retardant line project on the NORTH side until it was too late to do any good at all on the SOUTH side, where Marsh was (apparently) waiting for them to show up.

      By the time Thomas French and John Burfiend DID actually turn their attention to the SOUTH side of the fire… they had wasted way too much time on the NORTH side and the smoke column had now ‘laid down’ there on the SOUTH side… making it now impossible to lay any retardant lines down in FRONT of the advancing fireline.

      By the time they ( French and Burfiend ) got focused on the SOUTH side… it was now way too dangerous to try and actually do anything to protect Glen Ilah or Yarnell proper… and they proceeded to just do the only thing it WAS safe to do… just try to drop some retardant on the ‘flank’ of the fire there on the north side of town near the U-Store-It facility and off into the foothills north of there.

      There is no ‘testimony’ required to PROVE that is the way it really went down with regards to the ‘Air Support’ between when OPS1 Todd Abel told Marsh he would “get some down there ASAP” and when it actually arrived ( FORTY+ MINUTES LATER ).

      It’s all captured for posterity right there in the Panebaker Air-To-Air channel recordings.

      Muzzy… sorry for all this ‘detail’… but you know me.

      To wrap it all up ( and answer your original question? )… YES… Eric Marsh COULD have been making ‘decisions’ based on a belief that ‘Air Support’ was going to ‘show up’ there on the SOUTH side of the fire at any moment from 3:50:20 PM onward… and when he might have actually HEARD OPS1 Todd Abel arranging that with Air Attack Rory Collins.

      But Marsh didn’t know that Thomas French and John Burfiend were NOT going to “head that way” ( to the SOUTH side of the fire ) like they said they would at 3:50:56 PM.

      French and Burfiend were just going to fuck around with the little project they’d been working on there on the NORTH side… for FORTY MORE MINUTES… and not even appear over the SOUTH side of the fire until the column had already begun to ‘lay down’ and it was too late to do anything to actually protect Glen Ilah or Yarnell proper.

      So if Marsh’s decision making really did all revolve around some expectation ( from 3:50 PM onward ) that ‘Air Support’ was going to arrive on the SOUTH side at ANY MOMENT… then how fucking TRAGIC is that?

      Reply

      • Minor typo up above… but it changes a critical time reference so I wanted to point it out.

        I typed ‘3:50:26 PM’ in a place where I should have typed ‘3:50:36’ PM.

        And those 10 seconds makes a difference.

        There really WERE a total of 16 seconds between the moment when OPS1 Todd Abel finished saying “Well get some Air Support down there ASAP”… to DIVSA Eric Marsh… and when we then hear Air Attack Rory Collins doing exactly what OPS1 Todd Abel has just told Marsh he was going to try and arrange.

        So that paragraph above just prior to the transcript of Air Attack Rory Collins actually TELLING Thomas French and John Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) to please shift their focus to the SOUTH side of the fire should have read like this…

        ————————————————————————–
        So here it is… at exactly 3:50:36 PM… and just 16 seconds after OPS1 Todd Abel had finished telling Eric Marsh (quote) “we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”,
        ————————————————————————–

        Reply

        • Crap… another ‘brain fart’ in that posting up above.

          I used the word ‘he’ instead of making it clear it was ‘Thomas French’.

          So paragraph(s) above SHOULD have read like this…
          ————————————————————————–
          When Rory Collins left Yarnell and both Thomas French and John Burfiend assumed both ‘Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities… they forgot all about the ‘promise’ they, themselves had made to Rory Collins at 3:50:56 PM about ‘heading that way’ ( to the SOUTH side of the fire ).

          French and Burfiend just continued with the ‘project’ they had been doing there on the NORTH side of the fire, even though the wind had ALREADY shifted and the threat there on the NORTH side had already pretty much abated.
          ————————————————————————–

          Reply

          • Alumni GMHS and Donut-

            Reflecting back on fires fought and an injury occurred would it be appropriate behavior of your crew to just privately deal with it as a team to avoid incident within an incident paperwork so on paper you all appeared no injuries but in reality injuries had indeed occurred and with that mindset was it possible two men stayed with the injured? And all your public speaking you don’t touch base except you were surprised by Marsh praises and then you were lookout. Who or how can we really find out who was lookout on prior fires because I was told Roberto was before he was promoted so alumni are needed to speak up on why the turn overseas..was it the crew could not pull through or was it internal/leadership?

            Reply

        • WTKTT,

          You posted; “Marsh is now actually TELLING OPS1 Abel that he is (quote) “Working his way OFF the TOP”. As in… coming DOWN off the west ridge and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch already.”

          How are you so sure he was coming from the GMHS rest spot and SZ area? Is this just speculation or conjecture or do you have more proof?

          I take this to mean he was coming off the top of the Weaver Mountains above the GMHS. Because the GMHS rest area and SZ area were NOT on the top, they were on a bench and/or spur ridge below the top.

          “1550.08 yeah, I’m trying to make my way off the top.”

          I take this to mean he was literally trying to make his way off the top of the Weaver Mountains above the GMHS.

          Reply

          • True RTS.

            How did wwtktt get there…I did not catch it but it’s the same thing I said to.MacLean article…speculation is okay if trying to work through thoughts but in the end speculation.
            You are correct we the hikers seen Marsh above the men…but we saw him in other positions so who knows where he was…

            Reply

          • Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on May 27, 2016 at 8:14 pm

            >> RTS said…
            >>
            >> You posted; “Marsh is now actually TELLING OPS1 Abel
            >> that he is (quote) “Working his way OFF the TOP”. As in…
            >> coming DOWN off the west ridge and towards the Boulder
            >> Springs Ranch already.”
            >>
            >> How are you so sure he was coming from the GMHS
            >> rest spot and SZ area?
            >>
            >> Is this just speculation or conjecture or do you have more proof?

            I guess you really haven’t been following along.

            Ever since Brendan’s admissions in his PUBLIC interview with Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today ( on August 31, 2015 )… the CONSENSUS has been that when Marsh actually said ( at exactly 3:50:08 PM ) he was (quote) “I’m tryin’ to work my way off the the top” (endquote)… it means that he was, in fact, already ‘Scouting ahead towards the Boulder Springs Ranch’, just like Brendan admitted to hearing over the radio shortly AFTER he was rescued by Frisby.

            From PDF page 29 of the SAIR…
            ————————————————————————–
            GM Lookout loads his gear into the UTV and hands his radio to BR Supt so BR Supt can contact the Granite Mountain IHC on the Granite Mountain intra-crew frequency. BR Supt tells them GM Lookout is with him and is safe, and they will probably need to move the Granite Mountain trucks. The Granite Mountain IHC says they have “good eyes,” they are “in the black,” and they will assess from there. As GM Lookout departs, he believes the crew is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVS A is scouting.
            ————————————————————————–

            Key phrase ( with timeframe being 3:42 to 3:44 PM )…

            “and DIVSA is SCOUTING”.

            So that suggests that the moment Eric Marsh knew that Frisby was NOT coming up for the face-to-face and was now going to ‘rescue’ Brendan AND move the GM vehicles… Eric Marsh has pretty much taken off to ‘scout’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch even before Frisby dropped Brendan off back where the GM Supt and Chase trucks were parked.

            And Brendan seems to have CONFIRMED this ( in PUBLIC ) in his subsequent interview with Wildfire Today’s Bill Gabbert…

            Wildfire Today
            Article Title:The Yarnell Hill Fire lone survivor: Interview with Brendan McDonough
            Published: August 31, 2015 – By Bill Gabbert
            http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/
            ————————————————————————–
            ( McDonough says ) that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about why the crew left the black. He did hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.
            ————————————————————————–

            So Brendan now puts a ‘purpose’ onto the ‘scouting’ that has always been mentioned in the SAIR document. This ‘scouting’ that Brendan was SURE Eric was doing even just shortly after being rescued by Frisby ( circa 3:41 PM to 3:44 PM ) was Marsh “going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good”.

            As in… “Scouting ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch”.

            >> RTS also said…
            >>
            >> “1550.08 yeah, I’m trying to make my way off the top.”

            Minor correction. Marsh doesn’t say ‘make’… he says ‘work’…

            ————————————————————————-
            CALDWELL VIDEO STARTS AT EXACTLY 1550:08 ( 3:50:08 PM )

            It is only 12 seconds long.

            +0:00 ( 1550:08 / 3:50:08 PM )
            ( DIVSA – Eric Marsh ): …Yea… I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top.

            +0:04 ( 1550:12 / 3:50:12 PM )
            ( OPS1 – Todd Abel ): Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated…
            ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah…
            we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.

            CALDWELL VIDEO ENDS AT 1550:20 ( 3:50:20 PM )
            ——————————————————————–

            >> RTS also said…
            >>
            >> I take this to mean he was coming off the top of the
            >> Weaver Mountains above the GMHS. Because the GMHS
            >> rest area and SZ area were NOT on the top, they were
            >> on a bench and/or spur ridge below the top.

            Regardless of the ‘other’ evidence ( including Brendan’s admissions ), if Marsh was still way north of the ‘anchor point’ ( on the top of the Weaver Mountains ) as late as 3:50:08 PM when he makes this statement… then that still doesn’t make any sense with regards to the ‘face-to-face’ meeting he ( Marsh himself ) had requested with Brian Frisby.

            If Marsh was only then ( at 3:50:08 ) even beginning to work his way back towards the anchor point… then that means if Brian Frisby HAD continued on up to the anchor point for the face-to-face Marsh asked for instead of stopping to rescue Brendan… Frisby would have been standing there with Steed several minutes BEFORE 3:50 PM… and Marsh wouldn’t have even been there and only would have ‘started’ to head back to the anchor point for the face-to-face HE, himself, had requested more than 20 minutes earlier.

            That’s just simply not likely at all.

            Marsh had called for the meeting at the same place he had met Frisby for the previous one. Marsh would have been making sure he was THERE, back at that ‘meeting place’, before Frisby arrived.

            >> RTS
            >>
            >> I take this to mean he was literally trying to make his
            >> way off the top of the Weaver Mountains above the GMHS.

            That was one of the ‘original’ options for what that might have meant… but that was before examining the statement in the SAIR about Brendan being sure Marsh was already “scouting” ( something? ) right after being rescued by Frisby ( in the 3:41 to 3:44 PM timeframe ) and then Brendan’s statements in his interview with Gabbert where Brendan CONFIRMS that this ‘scouting’ was, in fact, ‘scouting the route ( SOUTH ) to the Boulder Springs Ranch’.

            The actual ‘timing’ ( and Brendan’s admissions in August, 2015 ) don’t really support that option anymore.

            Unless you can provide (new) evidence to the contrary… it’s safe to assume (now) that Eric Marsh was already hiking south on the two-track and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch at 3:50:08 PM when we hear him tell OPS1 Todd Abel…

            “I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top..

            If you can argue the CONSENSUS back to this other option again, with new evidence, I’m all ears.

            Reply

              • I’m not locked into anything on this.

                It’s one of those things where there is still no solid proof, but there are other pieces of evidence that have to ‘fit’ whatever scenario is proposed.

                I still believe the CONSENSUS is that Marsh definitely took off on his ‘scouting trip’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch ( circa 3:41 to 3:45 PM ) just minutes after realizing Brian Frisby was NOT coming up for that ‘face-to-face’ meeting at the anchor point that Marsh himself had requested almost 20 minutes earlier, at 3:27 PM.

                The actual TIMEFRAME on THAT ( Marsh’s request for the second face-to-face ) still looks like this…
                ————————————————————–
                1527:00 – Frisby and Brown are still stationary ( according to GPS ) at the WEST
                end of the ‘Cutover Trail’ ( according to Brown’s GPS location data ).
                1528:00 – Eric Marsh requests second face-to-face with Brian Frisby.
                1528:30 – Trueheart Brown gets his ‘gear’ out of the Ranger and starts hiking EAST on Cutover Trail.
                1529:00 – Brian Frisby departs in the BR Polaris Ranger to meet up with Marsh.
                1529:51 – Byron Kimball begins his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
                (Byron Kimball): “As per ( US National ) Weather Service ( slight pause )… within the half-hour,
                (pause) EAST winds. (pause) Possibility of as high as 50 miles an hour or likely 25 (pause)
                definitely 25, 35 gusting 40 (pause) east / northeast within the half hour. Um… the
                outpoint to outflow line also ( will be ) located…”
                ( Video capturing radio traffic ends at 1530:14 and the rest of the weather report is cut off )
                1530:00 – Brown ‘pauses’ on his hike EAST and ‘stands still’ to listen to Kimball’s weather report.
                1531.00 – Byron Kimball has now finished his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
                1531:30 – Brown resumes his hike EAST after finishing listening to Kimball’s weather report.
                1532:00 – Frisby is still heading towards Marsh and Brown is still hiking EAST on ‘Cutover Trail’.
                ————————————————————–

                Brendan also testified to ADOSH that Eric Marsh’s physical location right around the time he ( Brendan ) decided to leave his lookout mound was pretty much (quote) “right above me”… and parellel to his lookout mound. That puts Eric Marsh no farther north on the ‘Weavers’ than around the Helispot, which was used to deliver the Lewis DOC crew to the same area the day before.

                So it really does look like this is what happened…

                1. At 3:27 PM, Marsh asks Frisby to come up and meet face-to-face again at the same place they met earlier in the day, near the anchor point and near where GM was working.

                2. Frisby agreed to come up… and immediately started doing just that.

                3. Marsh knows Frisby is coming up… and begins to work his way BACK towards where Steed and the men are, so he will actually be there when Frisby arrives.

                4. Frisby ‘stumbles’ across Brendan and realizes they both need to ‘retreat’ back east… so he tells Marsh that.

                5. Marsh MAY have been all the way back to where Steed was by then… maybe not… but it is now just 3:41 PM and Marsh now KNOWS Frisby is NOT coming up for that meeting… and this is really the moment of realization on Marsh’s part that it’s all going to shit, and even their own GM vehicles are about to be ‘driven away’ from where they parked them that morning.

                6. Marsh talks with Steed face-to-face for a few minutes, and it is decided that Marsh will ‘Scout ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch, but Jesse will keep the crew there in the ‘safe black’. It is now around 3:44 or 3:45 PM. Marsh ‘takes off’ and begins hiking SOUTH towards the BSR.

                7. Five minutes later… at exactly 3:50:08 PM… we have the Robert Caldwell video. Marsh is talking to OPS1 Todd Abel and says “I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top”. Todd Abel does not seem to fully understand what that means and tells Marsh to “Hunker and be safe… we’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP”. We do not know if Marsh said anything in response to Abel’s “Hunker and be safe” directive.

                8. Another 5 minutes goes by… and now we have the Christopher MacKenzie video clips where we hear Marsh and Steed talking over the GM intra-crew. There are now ‘comfort levels’ involved in the discussion and everyone knows that means Marsh is already asking Steed to do something and wants to know what his ‘comfort level’ is. It is also a CONSENSUS, at this point, that when Steed ends the conversation by telling Marsh where the fireline is ( “It’s almost made it to the two-track we walked in on” ), that Steed was doing so because Marsh might have been so far SOUTH on his way to the BSR by 3:55 PM that Steed was assuming Marsh might not be able to SEE, himself, what the fireline was really doing.

                But this is all just a ‘story’ that ‘fits the existing evidence’.

                If there’s anything else that can “tell a different story” that DOES fit all the existing evidence… I’m all ears.

                Reply

                • Correction for above…

                  I said…
                  ————————————————-
                  It is also a CONSENSUS, at this point, that when Steed ends the conversation by telling Marsh where the fireline is ( “It’s almost made it to the two-track we walked in on” ), that Steed was doing so because Marsh might have been so far SOUTH on his way to the BSR by 3:55 PM that Steed was assuming Marsh might not be able to SEE, himself, what the fireline was really doing.
                  ————————————————–

                  That was most likely NOT the end of that radio conversation between Marsh and Steed over the GM intra-crew channel.

                  It’s just the END of the MacKenzie video itself.

                  It is HIGHLY LIKELY that even after Steed said to Marsh “I Copy… and it’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on”… that Eric Marsh came right BACK to Steed and was ‘continuing’ that conversation.

                  ALL of the picture taking at that ‘rest spot’ location would suddenly END abruptly just 1 minute later, circa 3:56 PM.

                  Almost as if, at the end of this conversation that was only partially captured by MacKenzie… Steed turned to the men and said “Okay… cameras down, fellas. Gaggle Up. We’re leaving”.

                  Reply

                  • WTKTT,

                    Thanks for the detailed explanation regarding Marsh’s possible travel route and whereabouts.

                    Steed should have said either of the following: ‘Copy Eric’ and then turned to the Crew and said ‘we’ll wait for this to pulse and then go down’ OR more directly to Marsh, ‘this fire is moving way too fast and too intensely and we’ll come down after it pulses.’

                    Instead, he chose to use “Mitigating Speech” and just tell him the fire’s location, hoping Marsh will get the hint.

                    Marsh didn’t get it even after telling him either ‘we can’t make it’ or ‘we’re not going to make it.’

                    Reply

                    • For the record… I totally agree with you.

                      At 3:55 PM ( the actual time of the MacKenzie videos ) I don’t think Marsh was actually far enough SOUTH yet on his ‘scouting mission’ to have made his own ‘final decision’ that he was GOING to just ORDER Steed to bring those men out of the black… but he was CLOSE.

                      In other words… I don’t think that even if Christopher had kept filming at 3:55 PM… that we would have heard the actual full-blown ‘argument’ or the ORDER form Marsh to just “bring those men the fuck DOWN here… right now”… but we might have heard it escalating.

                      I can even hear what you are saying in Jesse’s tone of voice.

                      Instead of him saying “It’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on” ( Mitigated version )… Jesse probably WANTED to just say…

                      “It’s really picking up SPEED, now, Eric”.

                      But he didn’t.

                      He ‘mitigated’… hoping Marsh would ‘get it’.

                      Marsh didn’t.

      • WTKTT

        You first seem to have no clue about AA and Retardant application.

        Simply put the Head of the fire when it turned South with 20 plus MPH winds
        Was not a priority drop area for many reasons.

        The Priority drop areas for the 40 Minuets you say AA was concentrating on Yarnell and their little project was. It was a the back of the fire where they could drop on Structures and Spots to save or slow spread into Structures.

        That priority far out wad the Open brush burning and could be done with some success.

        I would say that Marsh pulled of a high risk maneuver thinking he could get Air support with out telling AA why he wanted drops. Buy the time he needed drops on the crew AA did not know their exact location and the Wind had laid over the Smoke column. That covered the location of the crew and totally made a Air Tanker drop impossible. The wind and the smoke along with a pinpoint position made any air drop out of the question at the front of a running fire.

        One more point in 8 Minuets the AA could have flown a complete recon around the entire perimeter of the Fire (5000 AC.) at 500 to 1000 ft. once the smoke column erupted the AA would not have seen any thing on the South and west side.
        A good air drop to be accurate needs to see what they are dropping on and adjust for wind. once the wind reaches 20 plus it becomes impossible to adjust a drop to hit target and the best drops are at 150 foot above terrain.

        I think they would have attempted a drop had they been able to see the crew even if the drop may not have hit target. It was already to late when the first call came.
        (we are in front of the flaming front)

        Reply

      • So if Marsh’s decision making really did all revolve around some expectation ( from 3:50 PM onward ) that ‘Air Support’ was going to arrive on the SOUTH side at ANY MOMENT… then how fucking TRAGIC is that?

        Eiyee! Clusters within clusters. Thanks for the detail; I find it quite useful to understanding this narrow slice of time. It seems from comparing your analysis with Bob Power’s reply that the value of AA staying on the north side of the fire is debateable. Even so, if there had been a more standard system of lingo to communicate the personnel protection aspect of the drop, the pilot may have acted differently.

        I’m sure you’ve all read this: https://medium.com/@USNGFlorida/additional-lessons-that-could-be-learned-regarding-yarnell-hill-fire-7cfc3d545c94#.4vyoqqah1

        concerning the use of the National Grid for communicating location. The author concentrates on the Mayday call and how it could have gone differently. But I wonder if Marsh/Abel had been more specific about what they wanted and where, the pilot could have grokked it more quickly and could tell it would cost him little time, and done it.

        For that matter, if Marsh had communicated his position on the grid, rather than using a vague term like “top” Abel would have grokked what he was trying to do and put a stop to it?

        Reply

        • Muzzy
          Good Stuff—- it is hard to tell with what we have what Marsh wanted and if
          Abel and Marsh were talking about the Crew or the BSR. Maybe a slow down drop. We just do not have any info to make a clear conclusion.

          I can tell you based on experience what air tankers can and cant do.
          That’s what I basically said above.

          Reply

      • WTKTT,

        You posted: “So if Marsh’s decision making really did all revolve around some expectation ( from 3:50 PM onward ) that ‘Air Support’ was going to arrive on the SOUTH side at ANY MOMENT… then how fucking TRAGIC is that?”

        All competent, experienced and knowledgeable WFF Supervisors KNOW that relying on air support, any air support, is a bad idea and not go be trusted.

        Reply

        • Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on May 27, 2016 at 11:37 am

          >> RTS also said…
          >>
          >> All competent, experienced and knowledgeable WFF
          >> Supervisors KNOW that relying on air support, any air
          >> support, is a bad idea and not go be trusted.

          If you are talking about depending on Air Support to ‘cover your moves’ out in the field… then yea… totally agree.

          But like the good little Calvanist that you are… you seem to be trying ( as usual ) to turn ALL conversations about Yarnell back into your “bad decisons will lead to bad outcomes” mantra… and just throw Eric Marsh under the bus.

          Just like Bob Powers above… I think you have totally missed the point of Muzzy’s original question, and what I was trying to say in response.

          The question of whether or not ‘Air Support’ could have been construed ( by anyone ) to have been “Promised” for the SOUTH side of the fire in the 3:50 PM timeframe doesn’t ONLY have to do with the ‘move’ that Granite Mountain was about to make.

          The “promise” of ‘Air Support’ coming from OPS1 Todd Abel to DIVSA Eric Marsh was not “We’ll get YOU some Air Support down there ASAP”.

          All OPS1 Abel said ( to his DIVSA ) was…

          “We’ll get some air support down there ASAP”.

          Abel meant “To help with the fire coming into the fucking TOWN”… and not “to help your damn crew take a hike they shouldn’t even be taking”.

          Abel says he did not KNOW they were ‘taking the hike’… so how could Abel’s promise of “We’ll get some air support down there, ASAP” have meant anything other than “to see if we can save any of the town”?

          Eric Marsh was still DIVSA.

          If there was now going to be ‘Air Support’ showing up over there around Glen Ilah and Yarnell proper… maybe he thought there was still some “Esse Quam Videri” to be had so that both his stint as a DIVS and Granite Mountain’s performance that day wouldn’t BOTH be just “TOTAL FAIL”.

          But what Muzzy was originally wondering was whether this 3:50 PM “promise” from Abel about the ‘Air Support’ could have been a MAJOR influence on the rest of Marsh’s ‘decision making’ that afternoon.

          The answer is ‘yes’… but what I was pointing out in my response was the TIMING that Muzzy seemed to not be fully aware of.

          That Marsh seemed to have ‘decided’ to start scouting ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch at least 5-8 minutes BEFORE that “promise of Air Support” was going to come over the radio from OPS1 Todd Abel.

          So maybe that was ‘influencing’ Marsh AFTER 3:50 PM… but it appears Marsh’s own decision to leave the save black and start ‘scouting ahead’ to the BSR could NOT have been based on that “promise from Abel”… because it hadn’t even happened yet.

          Reply

    • Thanks WTKTT–What indeed is sad about this is that Marsh and the bosses already knew the fire had turned toward the south and the structures. An of course their is redaction after Marsh says try BR–there is not aftermath recording or acknowledgement that those men were expected to come down into the bowl to protect structures. This could not have been a Marsh alone decision since he had already once refused to go there. So I believe any coercion beyond promise of air support is missing in the dialog and conveniently redacted. I believe also that Donut received some stern brain washing to keep a lid on what really happened–how else can we attribute the puny investigation that did not even talk to the Dispacher of the Day, Crystal, who now says she can fill in many of the missing pieces. How else can you attribute the avoidance of Provencio and Shoeffler testimony about the GMHS risk taking adventures.

      If truth be known the memorial will say 17 wild land heroes dead due to risk taking superiors and local fire departments that delibertly refused to take action to contain a small lightening strike. Let this be a lesson taught in all fire fighting manuals.

      Reply

      • Charlie said:If truth be known the memorial will say 17 wild land heroes dead due to risk taking superiors and local fire departments that delibertly refused to take action to contain a small lightening strike. Let this be a lesson taught in all fire fighting manuals.

        I guess I believe that the only thing that would have justified this existential risk was another existential threat. It may look childish, but I believe they thought their jobs were at risk if they failed to do all to protect structure. For these guys, their jobs were their lives. Short-sighted, perhaps. But hard to know how any of them would feel about disbanding the crew.

        Reply

        • Muzzy that sounds correct–and likely they would have had their jobs in jeopardy for refusal to go down. Marsh though his men could make it despite the risk he was putting them under since he had–he also as did the others superior to him have to realize the fire had already changed and would cut off the bowl in short order. The way the Boulder Springs Ranch sets is far enough on the North side of the bowl they felt they could beat the fire to that Ranch despite breaking all common sense safety rules of wild land fire fighting.

          It took some cajoling to get Joy to change her mind, in fact I did leave her for at least 40 minutes–then came back to fetch her. It was really a desperate maneuver on my part because I felt I was loosing time doing that–yet it worked out. She decided to take the sensible path out. But civilians have no job to loose or peer pressure to drop off toward a fire and get trapped in a canyon. On the other hand the wild land fire fighter has the turkey roaster blankets (Gary and Bob’s terms), direct in line radio contact with bosses at the Ranch House Cafe, cell phones, air support for water and retardant drops, and long experience at how fires react, those good sense safety rules with lookouts, planned escape routes, safety zones, and communication requirements. I believe they did have good communication–one deputy told us that was present said they had communications at all times and knew where the men were–it was just a confused and screwed up day.

          It is truly a head scratchier that those men would volunteer to try to protect structures under what was a suicide mission. But then when all the facts are in, not so much.

          Tragic indeed–why changes need to be made and forget the structures in these situations–lives are more important.

          Reply

  65. **
    ** WHICH HOTSHOT CREW IS LESS LIKELY TO KILL MY SON?

    John Dougherty’s / InvestigativeMEDIA’s recent article about Mike Dudley and the SAIT choosing to ignore important information/evidence about Granite Mountain is now appearing in many other places.

    Such as…

    http://m.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/smoke-screen/Content?oid=6230636

    An interesting comment has already appeared just a few hours ago on that reprint of the article…

    ————————————————————————————–
    Comment by: Mark Hostetler – 05/26/2016 – at 9:09 AM

    Thank you Dave Provencio and Fred Schoeffler for telling the truth. Experienced leadership and non-hero based decision making on a hotshot crew or any fire crew is what keeps young, relatively inexperienced, crewmembers alive. My son, who Dave knows so well, has been exposed the past 16 years to the most extreme wildland fires in history. He is now leading a hotshot crew and I fully believe he has remained alive and fire wise in part because at the age of 20 I guided him to join the Geronimo Hotshots rather than another hotshot crew. The sole reason I gave him was based on my own experience of working many seasons with the Geronimo superintendent at the time. I emphatically told him, “you are going with Geronimo”, and that I completely trusted the experience and leadership of that superintendent, saying, “He will watch out for you and keep you alive.”
    ——————————————————————————-

    Mark Hostetler is a former Hotshot AND still an active USFS employee with
    a (current) PUBLIC USFS email address.
    https://govtribe.com/person/mhostetler-at-fs-fed-us
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Mark Hostetler Contracting Officer
    Email: [email protected]
    Name: Mark Hostetler
    Phone Number: (520) 388-8312
    Fax Number: (520) 388-8332
    Position: Contracting Officer
    Agency: Department of Agriculture
    Office: Forest Service
    Location(s): R-3 Southwestern Region/Coronado NF R-3 Southwestern Region
    ——————————————————————————————–

    David Provencio himself ( Former Geronimo Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent ) said almost the exact same thing Mark Hostetler is now saying in his comment… that when it comes to placing their own SON(S) with a a ‘Hotshot Crew’… the primary consideration is “Who is most likely to keep you alive”.

    Sounds like the US Forestry Service really needs an ‘Amazon’ style rating system for ALL of their Type 1 Hotshot crews… since it seems common knowledge that some are more likely to KILL people than others and it’s an actual ‘consideration’ among WFF ‘fathers’ when choosing a Crew for THEIR son(s).

    FOUR STARS – Not likely to kill you.
    THREE STARS – You might die… but they TRY not to let it happen.
    TWO STARS – You have a 50/50 chance of going home from any given assignment.
    ONE STAR – Make SURE you have accidental death insurance.
    ZERO STARS – Highly likely you will die.

    Or should it be the other way around ( the rating system )?

    The MORE ‘Stars’ a Type 1 Crew has… the MORE likely they are to kill you?

    Reply

  66. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH – ON TELEVISION LAST NIGHT

    Just last night, Brendan McDonough had an extended ‘on-camera’ interview over at the Arizona PBS station regarding his new book.

    And once again… Brendan says that the ONGOING ‘investigations’ into what really happened in Yarnell are a GOOD thing… and he totally ENDORSES any such ‘continuing investigation’.

    This interview was a little longer than some of the others, and the Interviewer was pretty sharp. This PBS interviewer seemed fully aware of the work that John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA ( and others ) have been doing… and he was also ready to ask Brendan some fairly direct questions.

    The full footage of last night’s interview with Brendan is here…

    ARIZONA PBS
    http://www.azpbs.org/

    I can’t post a ‘direct’ link to the video because the site is just using Javascript ‘popups’ to display stories, interviews and on-camera footage.

    On that page, in the NEWS section, click the photo of Brendan’s book “My Lost Brothers”. A ‘popup’ appears that plays the entire interview with Brendan.

    Caption on the video…

    Arizona Horizon – Yarnell Hill Fire Survivor Book – 2016-05-24
    The lone survivor of the ill-fated Granite Mountain Hotshot crew has written a book about the Yarnell Hill fire that claimed 19 members of the crew. Brendan McDonough’s book also talks about his life of drug abuse before the fire ahd how joining the crew helped saved him.

    Below is the FULL TRANSCRIPT of that part of the interview when the interviewer wanted Brendan to talk about Sunday, June 30, 2013, and what it is he still does or doesn’t know.

    Brendan doesn’t specifically mention the whole story regarding what he may or may not have told Darrell Willis that so ‘shocked’ Willis that he, in turn, shared Brendan’s ‘confession’ with Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini.

    It’s perfectly obvious now that Brendan has been ‘advised’ to simply never mention that at all… like it never even happened… even though that is what led to a lot of lawyers writing a lot of ‘motions’ to try and get Brendan fully deposed, under oath.

    But even without mentioning the whole Paladini / Willis issue… there remains no doubt that Brendan is now calling Paladini, Willis ( and even authors Kyle Dickman and Bill Gabbert ) LIARS for everything they ever even said he *might* have said.

    I’d still love to see Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini, Chief Willis, Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman and respected Wildland Fire reporter Bill Gabbert all on the same ‘stage’ with Brendan, under the lights, and have them all have their own “Were you ( Brendan ) LYING to us ALL back when… or are you LYING NOW?” discussion… but I doubt that’s ever gonna happen.

    Anyway… here is exactly what Brendan said on television just last night, including his continuing ENDORSEMENT of all ‘continuing investigations’ to discover the other ‘decisions’ that he says people don’t know about yet ( other than Eric Marsh’s ) which contributed to the tragedy…

    —————————————————————————
    +6:55 into the video

    Interviewer: Allright… WHAT happened on June 30, 2013?

    Brendan: Ya know… for me… June 30th is a… is a pretty difficult day to remember… and… a lotta trauma there… and so… getting to Yarnell… we were just assigned to a Division and to get there and try and get an anchor in… and that’s what we tried to accomplish… and it was just a very difficult day with the… with the amount of resources we had and with the amount of… you know… fire that was there… and it was… you know… it was a pretty small fire in the sense of things such as Fort McMurray that’s almost a million acres. And so… just… as the day went on… we were just tryin’ to delegate jobs and I got chosen to be the lookout… and.. ya know… with different weather events and different communications and… and things like that… we’ve had… you know… we have the incident. We have the tragedy. We have 19 men dying. And so…

    +7:49
    Interviewer: Back to the day… as far as being the lookout… what could you see?… I mean… could you SEE the others from where you were? From your vantage point… you were the ‘lookout’. What were you ‘looking out’ AT?

    Brendan: So… what I’m tryin’ to look out for is I’m tryin’ to see what’s goin’ on with the fire. I’m tryin’ to have good eyes on it. I’m taking weather for them… to see if there’s any changes in the relative humidity, the wind… things like that. And I… I could see them. I could make out figures. I couldn’t see faces, ya know, but I knew that was my crew. I knew that someone was running a chainsaw… and I could hear the chainsaws running and things like that.

    +8:25
    Interviewer: Could you communicate with them?

    Brendan: Yes. Of course. I had a radio so I could communicate with them. Clear line of sight from them to me and clear line of sight from me to them.

    +8:33
    Interviewer: And they could communicate with YOU?

    Brendan: Correct.

    +8:36
    Interviewer: And you could hear other communications that THEY were receiving and sending as well?

    Brendan: Some of them.

    ( Silence. Brendan says nothing more and there is ‘dead air’ for a moment. )

    +8:40
    Interviewer: But not ALL of them?

    Brendan: Correct. You can’t… You… you know… you can’t expect someone to be able to pick up every single communication on… ya know… ten… ten different channels.

    +8:48
    Interviewer: Right.

    Brendan: Your… your main priority is to your crew… and to… to really go above and beyond that is your superintendent and your captain and your squad bosses… at that point. Ya know… one of the channels that I was listening to was the weather channel. That was something I was trying to scan.

    +9:04
    Interviewer: So. ( Pause ). When did you KNOW that things had gone horribly wrong?

    Brendan: Well.. I knew… and so… that’s a… that’s a tricky question because I knew things were going horribly wrong when I started seeing homes get burned. Ya know… that’s… that’s horribly wrong. That’s… that’s not sumthin’ ya like to see. When did I know my brothers were in horrible danger? When I heard it over the radio. That’s when I truly understood how close they were at the position they were in. Ya know… asking for water drops… things of that sort… tryin’ to get those communications with the proper people. And… that… that’s when I started to feel the anxiety about… ya know… this… this could end… this could end BAD.

    +9:44
    Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. I… I’ve asked this question so many different ways to so many different people. WHY did they leave their relatively safe burned area… black area… and go back into that canyon?

    Brendan: Based on decisions and based on communications and based on information they had and were given. And so… ya know… as hotshot superintendents… they make… ya know… decisons based on information they’re given… information they’re seeing. What they’re seeing, what they’re hearing and what they’re getting… and so that’s… ya know… that was the decision why they… they left the black. What those communcations were?… I wish I could answer ’em. I… I really can’t as of this moment, ya know.

    +10:23
    Interviewer: Yeah… and… and I ask you that because there have been critics who say that… uh… that maybe you KNOW a little bit more… but… but your… your loyalty… especially to Eric Marsh… uh… keeps you from maybe saying everything you know.

    Brendan: No.

    +10:34
    Interviewer: How do you respond… Is that… do you… you don’t agree with that?

    Brendan: No. I do NOT agree with that. I’ve been completely up-front and honest, and I think.. ya know… what we’re coming to find is there’s a few people who are investigating Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy… and they’re finding a lot of new findings on what happened that day… and it’s not because there was a lack of discipline from the investigation. It wasn’t a lack of training… it was just a lack of time.

    +10:58
    Interviewer: Right.

    Brendan: A lack of time and resources for them to be able to truly get into this investigation… so… I think there’s a lotta things that we’re gonna come to learn and we’re gonna continue to grow as a community… and the wildfire community will continue to grow whole… and to LEARN from the decisions made that day… not only from Eric Marsh… but… but a lot of other people, including myself.

    +11:18
    Interviewer: And… and one last thing about this. Uhm… there are some that are suggesting that maybe you did HEAR that order. You KNOW who ordered them… or you… you had a better idea of WHY they left the black. Is that… again… these are people TRYING to find out what happened.

    Brendan. Yeah.

    +11:31
    Interviewer: Is that… is that again, a valid observation?

    Brendan: No. I do NOT know who ordered them to leave the black and I… I do NOT know who asked them that… but I know that there are people looking into that…

    +11:41
    Interviewer: Yeah.

    Brendan: …and they found… ya know… radio transmissions that they’re… ya know… tryin’ to match voices to and tryin’ to figure out… ya know… what’s being said and who… who is it being said to. And so it’s a uh… it’s a long process.. ya know… ya look at a lotta wildfire tragedies and it takes us years to grow from. And it’s not that we’re stubborn and it’s not that we’re ignorant… it’s just that there’s a LOT of information there and there’s a LOT of possibilities when you’re fighting a natural disaster. You look at tornadoes… you look at tsunamis… do you send in crews there? In the… in the heat of the moment? Do you send in people in there to go fight these natural disasters? So we’re fighting a very diverse problem and so, when… when something like this happens, it’s very easy for people to point the finger… and… ya know… I’m just glad that we have such great men and women in this community that are willing to take the time to dedicate to TRULY finding out what happened so we can PREVENT this.

    +12:33
    Interviewer: I was gonna say… you UNDERSTAND, though, why people ask the questions?

    Brendan: Of course.

    Interview: And what they want to KNOW?

    Brendan: Oh yes.

    +12:38
    Interviewer: Because… it just… it still seems VAGUE. And… and when something as tragic as this happens… people want ANSWERS. They wanna know… AND… they wanna know what to FIX. Have we learned LESSONS from this?

    Brendan: I think we have a few lessons that we’ve learned, and I’ve seen the different tactics that are… that people are using to fight fires. They’re being a little bit more cautious with their decision making. Ya know… maybe they’re thinking about twice about doing something… and… it… they’re looking at new shelter designs and they’re.. ya know… and by learning those lessons… that’s what continuing to investigate into this fire is about because… it’ll just continue to grow.

    +13:10
    Interviewer: Yeah… but I… uh… didn’t you write that nothing has really changed for wildland firefighters?

    Brendan: Nothing has changed… but resources-wise… they need to… uh.. ya know… as a whole we need to stand behind these men and women because they’re getting spread so thin. Ya know… there’s no denying that wildland firefighters are getting spread thin… and we need more resources. We need more Heltankers. And they’re trying to do that. They’re trying to keep up with this pace of the wildfire seasons that we’re seeing. They’re becoming year-round now. They’re becoming more often. They’re becoming larger. They’re becoming more destructive. And so with that… we’re trying to keep up.

    ( The Interviewer then switched the discussion to the ‘aftermath’, )
    ( and Brendan’s struggle with PTSD ).
    ———————————————————————————————-

    Reply

    • McDonough makes several interesting statements. Paraphrasing.

      He said he was hired in 2011 after five (5) guys quit. There is something going on with that, that early in the season. GMHS has fairly high turnover on a fairly regular basis and usually means there are/were internal issues that encouraged these men to leave.

      He mentions water drops mentioned on the radio transmissions he heard. This is new and needs to be further looked into.

      The comments about bigger fires, more dangerous, need for more aircraft, the development of fire shelters, and the monitoring/scanning of ten (10) channels are all Straw Man and/or Red Herring logical fallacies to pull the listener and/or reader off track to support his rambling weak argument.

      One thing he mentioned that is worthwhile is the EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing therapy for his PTSD. This is a very beneficial and very successful treatment.

      Go to YouTube and search for the “20/20 EMDR segment for a comprehensive overview of the treatment. There are many YHF participants and/or victims benefitting from this.

      Reply

      • Then I wasn’t the only one noticed that he mentioned Warter Drop and I had not seen that before. Donut slipped there since it definitely shows he is withholding evidence in an event that killed 19. Shame, even if he has been coached to keep his mouth shut. No wonder he has PTSD, but I think he should have guilt therapy as well.

        Reply

        • Man up Brenden–now that we know you heard of water drops being asked for by the GMHS radio requests–tell us all. Getting the truth off your chest is great therapy–it will take a burden off your shoulders–any decent minded therapist will tell you that.

          The bull shit that the loved ones would be hurt by the truth is a damned lie. The loved ones deserve nothing but the truth of why their beloved died. Whoever tells that shit is trying to protect reputations and selfish without consideration for the lives of wild land fire fighters where their own reputations might be questioned.

          Reply

      • Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on May 26, 2016 at 11:20 am

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> McDonough makes several interesting statements. Paraphrasing.
        >>
        >> He said he was hired in 2011 after five (5) guys quit.
        >> There is something going on with that, that early in the
        >> season. GMHS has fairly high turnover on a fairly regular
        >> basis and usually means there are/were internal issues
        >> that encouraged these men to leave.

        Brendan mentions nothing about that in his book… but he does
        describe how he was hired “on the spot” when he just walked
        in, unannounced, into Granite Mountain Station 7.

        In his book… Brendan describes his ‘moment of hire’ this way…

        From page 63…
        ——————————————————————–
        I walked through the doors ( of Granite Mountain Station 7 ) and
        and found myself in a little hallway. The first thing I saw was
        a guy I’d taken my EMT class with, and I smiled in relief.
        “Hey Daniel”, I said, “Do you still have any positions open?”
        He gave me a strange look. Later he told me that I’d tucked
        my tank top into my underwear by mistake, and they were
        visible above the waist of my jeans. What a champ.
        “Hey Brendan. Ah, no, sorry, we don’t We’re all filled up.”
        The floor just seemed to sink away. I felt defeat just wash over me.
        “Okay, thanks,” I said. It had taken all of five seconds. I turned around.
        To my right was an open doorway. As I approached it, a man walked out.
        “Hold up,” he said. “Your’re looking for a job?”
        I didn’t know it then, but this was Eric Marsh. He was tanned and fit,
        like everyone in the place, but a little older. His voice had a bit of
        a Southern twang at the end of the sentences.
        “Yes, sir”, I said.
        “We’ve got one spot left open. You have your certifications?”
        I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.
        “Yes, sir”.
        “Okay. Can you do an interview now?”
        Now? I felt the fear come back full force. But I made myself nod.
        “Yes, sir. Whatever works best.”
        He nodded back, his eyes appraising me. “Come on in”.
        ————————————————————————-

        There’s also the ongoing fact that despite ALL of the many, many ‘Granite Mountain’ alumni who are still ‘out there’… all in all… we have actually heard very little from anyone about their ‘time’ with Granite Mountain.

        Very few ‘comments’ at all… either Good, Bad or Ugly.

        The ‘silence’ remains ( basically ) ‘deafening’.

        >> RTS also said…
        >>
        >> He mentions water drops mentioned on the radio transmissions
        >> he heard. This is new and needs to be further looked into.

        It’s pretty hard to tell what the heck Brendan was really referring to there.

        Could it be that he is just talking about the actual MAYDAY radio traffic that was captured in Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00265 video? ( the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video )… and Brendan is trying to just say it was obvious from that radio traffic that the REASON they were trying contact ‘Air Attack’ was to ask for emergecny ‘drops’… even though, after 2 and 1/2 minutes of just being IGNORED by John Burfiend, they never even got the chance to actually ASK for that?

        Or is Brendan now referring to some entirely different set of radio exchange(s) that might have happened in that timeframe?

        It really does sound like ( in the recorded ’emergency’ calls ) that that was the first time either Steed or Caldwell ( or anyone else with ‘Granite Mountain 7’ ) had actually tried to even contact ‘Air Attack’… but maybe Brendan is referring to some ‘requests for drops’ that happened even long before the ’emergency’ radio traffic hit the A2G channel.

        Reply

        • WTKTT,

          Clarification on the high turnover on the GMHS.

          Every HS Crew has a high turnover year about every 5 to 8 years, however, the GMHS seemed to have a high turnover rate on a much more frequent basis. That suggests internal issues.

          Recall that Brendon Bunch left after the May 2013 Thompson Ridge Fire because he was sick and tired of Marsh ‘always trying to prove hi,self.’

          Reply

    • Hi WTKTT,

      This is the direct link to the PBS video: http://www.pbs.org/video/2365762570/

      It may work after the video is off the front page.

      Thanks for the transcript and your thoughts. I still feel for Brendan, even though I know some of what he’s doing is self-serving. He seems like a young man who thought he had found a forever home with the hotshots, and it was ripped away before he had fully grown. I wonder how much we are hearing from him is not direct memory, but memory manufactured after the fact through watching all the vids from the day (e.g., water drops), as well as rehearsal with lawyer and publisher. He sounds like a kid trying to paraphrase an encyclopedia article he turned in as a school report. If he decided to suddenly come clean and reveal all he thinks he remembered, I doubt it would make sense, and I would not trust the information as accurate.

      Frisby, DIVS Z, and a fly on the wall and in the parking lot at the Ranch House Cafe (who may have heard some interesting radio traffic) might have more credibility and more insight into what was in Marsh’s and Steed’s head. Was McDonough tuned in enough to put anything he heard into context? In the video, he wasn’t very good at articulating coherently on any subject, whether it was his past, June 30, 2013, or what current firefighters need. I heard phrases, but few complete sentences.

      I hope others contact John D. directly and help to fill in as many details as possible, even if they seem minor, as long as they’re true. Brendan is not that guy.

      Reply

      • Reply to Muzzy post on May 26, 2016 at 2:58 pm

        >> Muzzy said…
        >>
        >> This is the direct link to the PBS video:
        >> http://www.pbs.org/video/2365762570/
        >> It may work after the video is off the front page.

        Super. Thank you. Yes. That is a direct link to where that video is sitting on that server. It will probably stay there ( at that link ) for quite some time.

        >> Muzzy also said…
        >>
        >> Thanks for the transcript and your thoughts. I still feel for Brendan,
        >> even though I know some of what he’s doing is self-serving.
        >> He seems like a young man who thought he had found a forever
        >> home with the hotshots, and it was ripped away before he had
        >> fully grown. I wonder how much we are hearing from him is not
        >> direct memory, but memory manufactured after the fact
        >> through watching all the vids from the day (e.g., water drops),
        >> as well as rehearsal with lawyer and publisher.

        I totally agree with you. Brendan has been so ‘coached’ and ‘rehearsed’ for any number of reasons and occasions now I’m not sure he can distinguish between what he knew or thought at the time and what he has come to know AFTER the fact.

        Regarding the ‘water drop’ thing… yes… maybe that’s all ‘hindsight’ talking even on Brendan’s part and he just thinks it’s obvious that’s what Steed and Caldwell were GOING to ask ‘Air Attack’ to do… but John Burfiend just fucking IGNORED them for 2 and 1/2 minutes and they never even got the chance to identify their exact location and/or even ASK for any ’emergency drops’.

        >> Muzzy said…
        >>
        >> He sounds like a kid trying to paraphrase an encyclopedia
        >> article he turned in as a school report.

        I agree. Brendan has done a SHITLOAD of ‘interviews’ and ‘book signings’ and ‘appearances’ in the last 2 weeks. They must all be ‘jumbled up’ in his head at this point and he’s having to rely ( as most people doing that kind of heavy dog-and-pony would ) on ‘talking points’. Even his ‘answers’ now come out ‘jumbled up’ and he answers more than just what he is asked. He inserts his own well-rehearsed ‘talking points’ at the same time.

        >> Muzzy also said…
        >>
        >> If he decided to suddenly come clean and reveal all he thinks
        >> he remembered, I doubt it would make sense, and I would not
        >> trust the information as accurate.

        Again.. I agree.

        Brendan McDonough will ALWAYS have a ‘credibility’ problem.

        He has EARNED it.

        He might think he’s ‘solving that’ now by just saying things like “I’ve been completely up-front and honest”… but even THAT is a LIE.

        He can publish all the books he wants. He can’t change history.

        He was OBVIOUSLY withholding information early on from anyone who had the misfortune to have to interview him.

        He has NEVER fully ‘explained’ ( or ever even FULLY ‘denied’ ) the details of the ‘story’ that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini told… and still swears ( to this day ) is the truth. That Brendan heard Steed and Marsh ‘arguing’ about what Steed perceived to be a (quote) “dangerous move”… and Marsh just ORDERED him to bring the men out of the safe black, anyway.

        His ‘reversal’ doesn’t even match what Kyle Dickman reported he had ‘heard’ in his book… and Brendan spent the better part of a YEAR working with HIM on THAT publication.

        There’s no going back.

        If this is Brendan’s FINAL STANCE on the topic of what he heard or knew ( which is NOTHING )… then Brendan is making FOOLS and LIARS out of ( at least ) all of the following people…

        1. Prescott City Attorney Jon Paldini
        2. Former Prescott Fire Chief and Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis
        3. Hotshot-turned author Kyle Dickman.

        Gary Olson has reminded us all many times ( Brendan included ) that the first thing to do when you find yourself digging yourself into a hole is to “stop digging”.

        Brendan appears to really want to “stop digging” ( because he can’t even fucking remember WHAT he said to WHO and WHEN at this point )… and he just wants all this to ‘go away’… but even if he thinks the way to ‘stop digging’ is to use DEFLECTION now and say “other people are still looking into this and they SHOULD because there is more to know”… he is still standing deep in the hole that he has already dug for himself…

        …and his CREDIBILITY remains at ZERO.

        >> Muzzy also wrote…
        >>
        >> Frisby, DIVS Z, and a fly on the wall and in the parking lot at the
        >> Ranch House Cafe (who may have heard some interesting
        >> radio traffic) might have more credibility and more insight
        >> into what was in Marsh’s and Steed’s head.

        Agree. In his interviews of late… ( but without actually mentioning them )… Brendan is basically sayng “I’m done. Ya wanna know more about what actually happened?… get Blue Ridge ( and others ) to START TALKING.”

        >> Muzzy also said…
        >>
        >> Was McDonough tuned in enough to put anything he heard into
        >> context? In the video, he wasn’t very good at articulating
        >> coherently on any subject, whether it was his past, June 30, 2013,
        >> or what current firefighters need. I heard phrases, but few
        >> complete sentences.

        Totally agree.

        Sometimes he would start a sentence like he was going to make some coherent point.. and then it just trailed off into some blenderized version of multiple rehearsed talking points all mixed up in his head at this point.

        Like this… ( you remember, THIS, right? )…

        Miss Teen USA 2007 – South Carolina answers a question
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
        ————————————————————-
        Question: Recent polls have shown a fifth of Americans can’t locate the U.S. on a world map. Why do you think this is?”

        Answer: I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh, people out there in our nation don’t have maps and, uh, I believe that our education like such as in South Africa and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh, or, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future. For our children.

        Thank you.
        ————————————————————-

        >> Muzzy also said…
        >>
        >> I hope others contact John D. directly and help to fill in as
        >> many details as possible, even if they seem minor, as long
        >> as they’re true. Brendan is not that guy.

        Nope. I’ve seen just about all his PUBLIC interviews since the book came out… and his message seems clear… “I want the book to do well so I get my promised bonus, but I’m sick of answering questions. If you want answers… talk to everyone else who was there and ALSO has them. I’m done.”.

        Reply

        • Followup… I left at least one very important person off the list of people who Brendan is now making into FOOLS and LIARS.

          The LIST above really should have looked like this…

          ——————————————————————–
          If this is Brendan’s FINAL STANCE on the topic of what he heard or knew ( which is NOTHING )… then Brendan is making FOOLS and LIARS out of ( at least ) all of the following people…

          1. Prescott City Attorney Jon Paldini
          2. Former Prescott Fire Chief and Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis
          3. Hotshot-turned author Kyle Dickman.
          4. Respected Wildfire Reporter Bill Gabbert ( Wildfire Today )
          ————————————————————————

          Reply

    • And speaking of “digging the hole deeper”…

      It’s almost like Brendan can’t stop himself.

      He is TRYING to get out from under his well-earned NO CREDIBILITY blanket,
      but then he answers a question on LIVE television like this…

      ————————————————————————————
      +9:44
      Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. I… I’ve asked this question so many different ways to so many different people. WHY did they leave their relatively safe burned area… black area… and go back into that canyon?

      Brendan: Based on decisions and based on communications and based on information they had and were given. And so… ya know… as hotshot superintendents… they make… ya know… decisons based on information they’re given… information they’re seeing. What they’re seeing, what they’re hearing and what they’re getting… and so that’s… ya know… that was the decision why they… they left the black. What those communcations were?… I wish I could answer ’em. I… I really can’t as of this moment, ya know.
      ——————————————————————

      Brendan said…

      What those communcations were?… I wish I could answer ’em. I… I really can’t as of this moment, ya know.

      If Brendan really is going to try and stick with his “I don’t know anything. Never have” story ( which now makes FOOLS and LIARS out of a lot of other people )… then ALL he had to say was…

      What those communcations were?… I wish I could answer ’em. I… I really can’t.

      PERIOD. END OF SENTENCE. QUESTION ASKED / ANSWERED.

      But Noooooooo… Brendan didn’t do that.

      He just keeps the ‘mystery’ going by adding “…as of this moment”.

      What the FUCK is that supposed to mean, Brendan?

      “as of this moment”… as in… “not while I’m trying to sell my book to as many people as possible and since the primary buying audience is the WFF community… I don’t want to piss them off until they buy my book”?

      What ‘moment’ is Brendan referring to ( when he didn’t even need to say that )?

      He does NOT flat-out say “The reason I can’t tell you the answer is because I don’t know”.

      No. He just spews more ‘Brendan-speak’ and says…

      “I wish I could answer ’em” ( the questions people still have )”
      “I really can’t… as of this moment“.

      EVERYBODY SING!….

      The wheels on the bus go round-and-round, round-and-round, round-and-round.
      The wheels on the bus go round-and-round… all the live-long day.

      Reply

  67. This is a July 28, 2013 (0803) email to Brad Mayhew that somehow failed to make it into the IM FOIA requests. Another will follow.

    “Brad,

    I’ll keep it brief because I’m sure you’ve been swamped with emails.

    They violated numerous, basic safety rules and it was fatal. To leave “good black” and travel through the unburned green and then into a bowl is totally the wrong thing to do any time under the weather and fire behavior conditions they travelled in. And to do this without a Lookout and then into the unburned green, and finally into a bowl. Fatal mistakes! There can be no other conclusion but human error. There were several good firefighters on that Crew that knew – or should have known – better. I am thinking it had to be Groupthink, which I am sure you are fairly well versed in. I’m including a couple links to some good research papers, particularly the military one.

    (ONE LINK NOT INCLUDED to avoid the moderation trap)

    http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA387009

    The weather was clearly predictable. Several notifications by the Flagstaff NWS ensured that. Then there is the Cliff Mass Weather Blog Yarnell Fire, also check out the Univ. of Wisconsin, Madison – CIMSS Satellite Blog Yarnell Hill Fire. Very accurate and informative wx information – our first Fire Order.

    Reviewing the Common Denominators (at least 3), Fire Orders (half of them), and the 18 Watch Outs (numerous) to see where they blundered and why they died. This was very similar to the Dude Fire in 1990, the South Canyon Fire in 1994, and the Mackenzie Fire near Kingman, AZ (no deaths but a bowl was involved). You should be able to review these on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center under Incident Reviews. If this was the Crew and leadership that the Prescott FD alleges, then they would have trained in and known all this. However, they fatally failed to take these into account.

    This event was entirely predictable and preventable. This was matter-of-factly human error. You can come to no other conclusion. Drink not the Yarnell Hill Fire Kool-Aid that says it was not.

    Also, please address the continuing onslaught of Prescott FD Wildland Chief Darrel Willis and the moronic Jim Paxon stating otherwise and attempting to rewrite/revise the Wildland Firefighting Rules. All you have to do is read the news articles and/or watch their video clips. For example, “LCES is/was emphasized, but there are points during that workday that you don’t have that in place. There are times that you don’t have all these standards in place, especially with them moving like they were. They couldn’t leave anybody behind [as a lookout].” In another interview, Willis stated that predetermined Escape Routes and Safety Zones were impossible.

    “They were not satisfied , no wildland firefighter is satisfied sitting there and watching the fire progress without taking any action.” “In my heart, I know that they were not protecting themselves, that they’re going to protect that Ranch. You are going to protect the house and not yourselves. They protect themselves as a last resort.”

    And now to his Groupthink statement: “One of the things that was very unique about this fire situation was that 19 firefighters saw and felt the same way. Nobody cut and run …. nobody tried to get out of the way. … I would have been with that Crew blindfolded. They could have led me down there. I’d have been with them. I have complete faith and trust in their leadership.” He alludes to this in other interviews and statements.

    He even goes so far as telling the reporters that they chose the best possible spot in the bowl to deploy their shelters. If you deploy your fire shelter someone has messed up. These guys really messed up.

    Please. You must come to the conclusion of human error. There is no other than human factors. The environmental factors were clearly predictable in every way. Also, please address the dangerous Structural fire attitude of risking one’s life for structures and that their lives come secondary and as a “last resort.”

    Fred Schoeffler”

    Brad Mayhew did NOT reply to this email and it remains to be discovered why it was not included in the FOIA email request.

    Reply

    • Here’s a subsequent email that alleged Human Factors “Investigator” Brad Mayhew also did NOT reply to.

      Brad,

      How about this one? You alleged ‘Investigators’ and alleged ‘Subject Matter Experts’ also had this information available, but only IF you wanted it to be found and used.

      Incompetence? Some, of course, but I think more intentional because it didn’t fit ‘The Party Line’ of “No indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.”

      No wonder they keep calling you up for these alleged ‘Investigator’ and ‘Human Factors SME’ assignments. They know you will write or say whatever they want you to say. Shameful.

      I know you didn’t learn that from the LP Hot Shots. WTF!?

      Best regards,

      Fred Schoeffler”

      This email also failed to show up in the USFS reply to the IM FOIA request. WTF?

      Reply

    • >> on May 25, 2016 at 12:21 pm, RTS said…
      >>
      >> Brad Mayhew did NOT reply to this (first) email and it remains to be discovered
      >> why it was not included in the FOIA email request.
      >>
      >> on May 25, 2016 at 12:26 pm, RTS said…
      >>
      >> Here’s a subsequent email that alleged Human Factors “Investigator”
      >> Brad Mayhew also did NOT reply to.
      >> This (second) email also failed to show up in the USFS reply to
      >> the IM FOIA request. WTF?

      There are MANY, MANY emails obviously totally ‘missing’ from this official United States Forestry Service response to a valid, legal “Freedom Of Information Act” ( FOIA ) request.

      It is legal to show emails sent/received, and then totally ‘redact’ the body of the email and just leave the email ‘headers’… and then TRY to claim one of the 9 FOIA ‘exemptions’ for the redaction(s) ( National Security, Attorney/Client Privilege, etc… ).

      But it is ILLEGAL to ‘pretend’ you don’t even have the documents/emails.

      Repeat: It is ILLEGAL.

      We are not just seeing evidence of the United States Forestry Service trying to ‘protect’ itself.

      We are seeing evidence of them BREAKING THE LAW!

      Reply

    • Followup…

      >> RTS said…
      >>
      >> This is a July 28, 2013 (0803) email to Brad Mayhew that somehow
      >> failed to make it into the IM FOIA requests. Another will follow.
      >>
      >> Here’s a subsequent email that alleged Human Factors “Investigator”
      >> Brad Mayhew also did NOT reply to.

      I’m going to assume that BOTH of these emails were sent DIRECTLY to Brad Mayhew himself ( with his email address in the ‘To:’ header field ).

      Question: Was ‘Mike Dudley’ ( or anyone else on the SAIT ) also included in either the ‘To:’ field or the ‘Cc’ ( or even Bcc? ) field?

      If not… then we are now seeing PROOF of the ‘reverse’ regarding the David Provencio emails to Mike Dudley.

      There is no indication that Mike Dudley ever bothered to share those David Provencio emails with the actual ‘Human Factors’ investigator on his SAIT team ( Brad Mayhew )…

      And now… there are also no emails in the release which would indicate Brad Mayhew himself was sharing information HE was getting with anyone else on the SAIT team, his ‘Leads’ including ( Karels and Dudley ).

      Not the way you would think any legitimate ‘Investigation TEAM’ should be operating.

      But that’s just a rhetorical description of this effort ( legitimate ‘Investigation’ TEAM ) at this point, right?

      We all know it was never any such thing.

      I still think, at the very least, the good taxpayers of Arizona deserve ALL of their money back that was spent on this ridiculous SAIT thing.

      Reply

      • These two emails were sent ONLY to alleged Human Factors”Investigator” Brad Mayhew and NO “cc” emails were sent to any other alleged SAIT “Investigator.”

        Please notice that alleged Human Factors “Investigator” Brad Mayhew was included on EVERY email to all other alleged SAIT “Investigators,” including YHF SAIT Team and Co-Team Leaders Karels and Dudley listed below by WTKTT in other related postings.

        It stands to reason and SAIT protocol that alleged Human Factors “Investigator” Brad Mayhew would be obligated, if not outright required, to “cc” emails to the above.

        Very unprofessional, very unethical, very weasel-like, and likely very illegal.

        Reply

        • Paragraph 2 above CORRECTION

          The above should read “Please notice that alleged Human Factors “Investigator” Brad Mayhew was included on SOME (NOT every) email to all other alleged SAIT “Investigators,” including YHF SAIT Team and Co-Team Leaders Karels and Dudley listed below by WTKTT in other related postings.”

          Reply

          • Understood… and YES… if you look at ALL the emails in the recent release… it was obviously ‘standard practice’ for SAIT ‘Human Factors’ investigator Brad Mayhew to be CCed on most of the investigation related emails…

            …EXCEPT for the ‘David Provencio’ emails.

            The VERY THING that you would think would have been something a “Human Factors” investigator in a fatality information SHOULD have been ‘in the loop’ on… appears to be something that Mike Dudley was specifically deciding he ( Mayhew ) did NOT need to even ‘know about’.

            Mike Dudley said he had no intentions of ‘following up’ with Provencio.
            He let the ‘others’ who were being made aware of the potential evidence ‘decide yourselves if you want to talk to him’…

            …but according Dudley’s emails… the actual “Human Factors” investigator for the SAIT was neither being INFORMED that there was this potential evidence ( with DOCUMENTED PROOF )… nor was Mike Dudley offering his own ‘Human Factors’ investigator ( Mayhew ) the opportunity to ‘decide for himself’ if Provencio’s potential evidence was worthy of at leas a ‘follow up’ call.

            Unbelievable.

            ( Actually… it’s not. I just keep using that word ).

            We are seeing that things were actually ‘playing out’ exactly the way we have always known they were.

            Reply

    • I’ve had a little think, and gone through the emails where we can deduce the headers which include Brad Mayhew.

      Now I am NOT making excuses in any way, just adding a little – this is how Technology works – and so this may be why Fred S’s emails sent directly to Brad may not have been included in the FOIA.

      If the emails were sent directly to Brad @ an email address OUTSIDE USFS, and he NEVER forwarded them to anyone @ an email address INSIDE USFS, then it’s doubtful USFS has access to be able to supply them. i.e they are NOT (and never were) on USFS mail servers. therefore they don’t have access to them and are unable to supply them as part of the FOIA

      I’m also not asking that the email address be released publicly on here, but maybe RTS can get Fred S (I am sooooo playing dumb here) to confirm Yes or No it was @ USFS email. If the email domain is one owned by USFS then yeah – they’ve not “discovered” (read hidden) it, else if it’s @ something else maybe GMail/Hotmail/Fireline then USFS may not even have access to it.

      This still doesn’t explain the emails that others have identified as still being missing in the electronic records released. UNLESS they too were emails sent to email addresses not @ USFS email domains.

      Reply

      • Dammit – can’t even type simple paragraphs without having to make a correction;

        >> If the email domain is one owned by USFS then yeah – they’ve not “discovered” (read hidden) it,

        Should be
        If the email domain is one owned by USFS then yeah – they’ve not “discovered” those emails yet (i.e. they’ve “hidden” them),

        Reply

        • RTS thanks for the confirmation.

          So if Mayhew never forwarded them to the rest of the SAIT, then those emails NEVER entered USFS records, and would not be included in the FOIA results.

          Which means EVEN Mayhew was hampering a true investigation by withholding and not forwarding relevant information to the SAIT.

          ..devils advocate…. maybe he printed them out, and took them to the SAIT office, dropped them off, and they got shredded along with anything else that did not fit with the desired outcome.

          Reply

          • Otis,

            You’re being to kind and generous to the alleged Human Factors ” Investigator” Brad Mayhew.

            He’s a lap dog and yes man for whomever hires his services. He toes the Party Line every single time.

            That’s why ‘they’ continue to hire him.

            Reply

  68. **
    ** AGAIN… SOLE SURVIVOR BRENDAN MCDONOUGH ENCOURAGES EVERYONE
    ** TO KEEP LOOKING FOR ‘ANSWERS’ WITH REGARDS TO THE YARNELL FIRE.

    CBS – CHANNEL 5 – ARIZONA
    Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire survivor: ‘It’s a tough life to live’
    Published: May 02, 2016 4:13 PM CST – By Phil Benson
    http://www.cbs5az.com/story/31868224/yarnell-hill-fire-survivor-its-a-tough-life-to-live?autostart=true

    From the ON CAMERA interview with Bredan…
    —————————————————————————-
    In his book, McDonough wrote…

    “The fire was so powerful it was impervious to chemicals and water or any human endeavor to stop it.”

    The key question, why the hotshots left a safe zone to try to make it to a nearby ranch, remains unanswered.

    There are no revelations in the book that provides the answer.

    Fire investigators say the ranch was the crew’s designated safety zone. The fire overtook the team in a basin, about a quarter of a mile from the ranch.

    Brendan McDonough said…

    “I think there’s a lot of questions that we can look at in Yarnell that we need answers for but still haven’t gotten. But I believe there’s plenty of people out there still investigating and searching for those answers because wildland firefighters need to know what happened so they can learn from it and prevent these fatality fires.”

    —————————————————————————-

    Reply

    • Brendan–his book would have been better titled “LIVING THE LIE”. He damn well knows he has withheld vital information that puts future wild land fire fighters in danger. He would do well to talk to Don Fesler, Fred, Provencio, Gary Olson, WTKTT, and stay away from Willis, et al who want to keep a lid on the truth and white wash the failures made at all levels during the wild fire incident at Yarnell.

      Reply

      • I know it’s absolutely ABSURD that a guy who was the sole survivor from that crew, who had full access to the GM Intra-Crew radio channel, and who can STILL probably fill in some important ‘details’ about what happened that day ( but still refuses to do so ) should now, HIMSELF, be the one calling on “others” to “keep investigating because there is more to know”…

        …but such is the enigma that is Brendan McDonough.

        Maybe what we are actually witnessing here is Brendan ‘growing up’.

        Maybe Brendan really is finally doing his own “slowly I turned” moment, now that’s he’s been away from the whole Forestry ‘cult’ for enough time now to ‘wake up’ and realize that he, himself, is the victim of ‘bad advice’ coming from others who have always had their OWN ‘agendas’.

        Maybe Brendan believes that between the ‘story’ coming out ( from Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ) about what he told Willis… and the fact that even Willis has only ever denied one single WORD of Paladini’s account ( Willis said he never actually used the word ‘ORDER’ )… Brendan really does think he HAS told what he knows… and doesn’t need to talk about it anymore.

        In other words… Brendan chose to ‘not go there’ in his own book because he really does think he ‘already talked about that’ and that it really is true that Jesse Steed and Marsh were ‘arguing’… and Marsh terminated the ‘argument’ with a ‘direct order’ to Jesse Steed… which he then ( tragically ) obeyed.

        But regardless of what Brendan, himself, is still reluctant to talk about… he DOES get points for NOW saying ( openly and PUBLICLY ) that the original SAIT and ADOSH investigations were, in fact, incomplete… and that there is still MORE TO KNOW about what was going down on Sunday, June 30, 2013 in a place called Yarnell.

        Brendan is practically saying, himself, “I’m done. It’s time for the the Blue Ridge Hotshots and others to tell you what they have ALWAYS known”.

        Reply

        • Hard to understand where person Brendan, en, Donut, PTSD Mc, etc. is at. Once he lawyered up, became part of America’s little darling wild land fire fighter example, who knows what influences and attitudes were inculcated into his brain. Perhaps, as WTKTT states he is growing up and getting tired of the agendas and story play the outsiders want him to portray. Certainly he has let the loved ones down–and many in his Prescott community that wanted to know the truth out of his mouth from the beginning.

          Some of these reporters and investigators ought to talk to a few members of the church he attends or attended and others we have talked to that know him on a personal basis or do business with him. A few of them have said they do not put much credence in his statements. It would be interesting to know why–but I never asked because I have believed all along he has been coached and once he espoused a lie then he had to continue with dodging the truth. Undoubtedly he was told to keep his mouth shut by someone and he has.

          Interesting he mentioned GMHS were asking for a water drop–I don’t remember that in any of the statements before–was that something I missed, or is that another hint at what he knows but refuses to reveal. A shame the Sair people never interview Clair, the Dispatcher. Whatever she has to say will be backed up by many others that are afraid to come forward. Well, not all are since we see that Provencio and Shoeffler have not been bashful.

          The only thing I can see is that RTS is correct in wondering why so many experienced fire fighters went along with group think and obeyed Marsh’s order to do the unthinkable. However I do believe they are all mitigated in the fact that Marsh was obviously strictly obeying orders from superiors despite the eminent danger his crew were about to face. He had to know that fact, only an idiot would not–I stood there on that two track and saw the inferno and the trap below if you dared. No doubt Marsh was OK to get through and did some earlier, he had to know he was challenging all good sense to bring them in but previously he had taken the risks to please his bosses and it had worked out and brought accolades to him and his group. But this attempt did not work out–the Boulder Springs Ranch withstood the fire and those structures that burned in Glen Isla burned could have never been saved to start with. Donut verified this when he stated that wild fire was jumping chemicals, water drops land all efforts to stop it. Duh–45 mph winds and fire tenacles laid down up to 100 ft. ahead with embers flying like bee swarms–don’t need a wild land fire boss to know that.

          Well there is some reckoning to be done–plenty of men of long experience and credentials giving their assessments without fear–that means some of these big shots will have to start back peddling. Gary Olson has it right–those men are heroes in the light that all wild land fire fighters willing to risk doing good works are heroes. But the bosses on that crew were real fuck ups when it comes to keeping their men safe. If this were the dark ages people would likely have some people in racks and stocks. Otherwise these days some of the Yarnell elite fire fighting community connected to the Yarnell Wild Fire have qualified to join the 2.2 million prisoners this country now has. Is it not evil action to risk the lives of others with no sound reason?

          Firinne aonriagh urchoid. Truth isolates evil.

          Reply

          • Charlie said:

            “Interesting he mentioned GMHS were asking for a water drop–I don’t remember that in any of the statements before–was that something I missed, or is that another hint at what he knows but refuses to reveal.”

            Putting my speculation hat on now:

            Well, Abel DID say something to the effect of: “hunker and be safe, we’ll get some air support down there asap”

            Connection? Yes? No? Maybe?

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • Hi Woodsman,

              I’ve stated before that I find Donut is well named and has no credibility. I suspect he “heard” about the water drops the same way we all did, from convos on the videos.

              That said, I wonder if whatever coercion led to the decision to leave the black and re-engage at Glen Ilah or Yarnell was sweetened with an assurance of air support. Even as I type this, I know that no such promise can ever be taken seriously in a fire due to rapidly deteriorating flight conditions that coincide with blow ups. Nevertheless, the exchange you cited with Abel along with the request from Marsh, which sounded to me like he had every expection that it would be forthcoming, leads me to suspect that such a promise tipped the balance toward moving from the black.

              Does anyone else share my suspicions? Who could have made such a promise?

              Reply

              • Muzzy.

                That’s my train of thought exactly on the point. Aerial support as a bargaining chip or enticement to convince somebody to do what you want them to do when they don’t want to do it.

                Point #1

                If you know the crew is safely in the black and you told them to ‘hunker and be safe,’ WHY WOULD THEY NEED AIR SUPPORT? GM was out of the game at that point, right?

                Point #2

                I believe that Brendan heard it all. The powers that be initiated damage control with him the evening of June 30th so that may be why it’s all mixed up in his head. It seems to me that he is under tremendous internal pressure to tell what he knows but ever since June 30th he’s been on a leash to shut the hell up. I would not be surprised if he has been directly or indirectly threatened to walk a fine line. There’s too many people’s livelihood at stake. That;s why he’s getting bits & pieces out there – he wants to spill it but he can’t…(conspiracy hat firmly on head) – he doesn’t want to end up as a suicide case with ‘3 gunshots in the back.’

                Point #3

                What was Cordes’ reaction when he was told of the deployment at the RHR? Something like: “Bullshit! They had plenty of time to get there!” ??

                Multiple personnel where aware that GM was on the move that afternoon, in my opinion.

                Woodsman

                Reply

              • Reply to Muzzy post on May 26, 2016 at 4:11 pm

                >> Muzzy said…
                >>
                >> I’ve stated before that I find Donut is well named
                >> and has no credibility. I suspect he “heard” about
                >> the water drops the same way we all did, from
                >> convos on the videos.

                Muzzy… see a ‘Longer’ reply to your post up above. It has some ‘Timing details’ in it with regards to your thinking about whether the “promise” of ‘Air Support’ may have factored heavily into Marsh’s decision making…

                http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336859

                Reply

              • Muzzy makes sense on that idea–it did sound like there was a “sweetener” involved since Marsh certainly would have known the danger involved in taking on that drop off into a trap where there was no escape should that fire turn–and maybe he even knew the fire had already turned–he just believed since he had outrun the fire and was somewhere near the ranch–his men could do likewise–and if not–that promised air support would save them. Marsh was willing to risk his men on the belief he had backup from the air.

                In fact when Joy and I were at the two track I told her we had to get the hell out of there–those GMHS had back up with water and retardant but if that fire turned our way we would have none. I did encourage her to move on the west side when it was still in question and now out of sight by pointing to a helicopter with an empty water bag and telling her that was a body bag bringing some of those men out already. My words were accidental–and meant only to encourage Joy to move on despite the heat and her fatigue. Yet I had feared they would actually try to work that fire and seeing what we had seen under that copter was enough to make me wonder if I were seeing a water bag or a body bag.

                This has been a long waiting game of people coming out of the closet. Too bad the ramifications are so intense that people fear the truth.

                The people in Yarnell for the most part have now weathered the storm–most do not even want to talk about the fire–want to accept the thing as what the FS and others that screwed up want to do–lay it to a bad day in history–no blame, no shame. But there are a few that do care and are still trying to make sense of it all. Few here know we have 90 souls deceased since the fire–this is natural events after the nice retardant dump. Lets see 90divided by 645=.139. That translates to 14%of the population dead in three short years. Well maybe they are heroes as well since they at least have been guinea pigs for the retardant dump. Can human guinea pigs be heroes?

                Reply

  69. **
    ** JAY KURTH… “WE CERTAINLY DIDN’T DO POORLY BY ROY HALL”

    The new emails basically show how obsessed the SAIT was by what was appearing in the MEDIA and here is just one more exchange where they were doing the “Hey… did you see THAT article???” dance.

    What makes this one interesting is a comment from JAY KURTH as he was replying to fellow SAIT member Tom Zimmerman.

    Zimmerman pointed out one article… then Jay Kurth asks about a link to an article he’d heard about with an interview with Roy Hall. Jay Kurth hadn’t read it yet and he seemed a little concerned about what might be in it.

    He also then says “We certainly didn’t do poorly by him ( Roy Hall )”.

    Almost as if to imply that the SAIT consciously decided to “Cut him” ( Roy Hall ) “a break”… even if they certainly could have been critical of his performance on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    ==============================================================================
    From: Tom Zimmerman
    Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 8:44 AM
    To: Dudley, Mike -FS
    Cc: Timothy Foley; [email protected]; Jimmy Rocha; Kurth, Jay -FS; Petrilli, Anthony C – FS; Wilson, Richa -FS; Sutton, Larry -FS; Draeger, Randy -FS
    Subject: Re: my battery is low with no way to charge …

    Here is another interesting article about the Yarnell Hill Fire. It makes mention of much of the review but will leave the interpretation of that discussion up to you.

    Tom

    http://www.psmag.com/environment/refusal-mourn-death-fire-crew-yarnell-69717/
    ==============================================================================================

    And here is JAY KURTH replying to Tom Zimmerman’s message with Subject “RE: my battery is low with no way to charge …”.

    =================================================================
    From: Kurth, Jay – FS
    Sent: 18 Nov 2013 17:07:08 +0000
    To: Tom Zimmerman; Dudley, Mike -FS
    Cc: Timothy Foley; jim.karels (at) xxxxxxx.com;Jimmy Rocha;
    Petrilli, Anthony C -FS; Wilson, Richa -FS; Sutton, Larry -FS; Draeger, Randy -FS
    Subject: RE: my battery is low with no way to charge …

    Has anyone seen the article with Roy Hall’s interview? If so, would you please send the link? I have been searching under “commander reflects”, but haven’t come up with it yet. I spoke with Roy and he seems to be doing well and spoke positively of our report. We certainly didn’t do poorly by him.

    jk
    ==============================================================================

    Reply

    • WTKTT-Whatever the last link above you posted said comes up “Sorry-nothing exists here” off my computer.

      Reply

      • >> WTKTT-Whatever the last link above you posted said
        >> comes up “Sorry-nothing exists here” off my computer.

        Yes.. I noticed that.

        Something happened to that link in either the FOIA release OR it has simply ‘moved’ to another link on the psmag.com server.

        Here is a GOOD link to that ACTUAL ‘psmag’ article that Dr. Tim Zimmerman was referring to in in his email above…

        PSMAG
        Article Title: A Refusal to Mourn the Death, by Fire, of a Crew in Yarnell
        By Stephen Pyne
        Published: Nov 12, 2013
        https://psmag.com/a-refusal-to-mourn-the-death-by-fire-of-a-crew-in-yarnell-75d4ac8579e3#.9q2l002q5

        The article DOES mention ( and focuses on ) the SAIT and their publicly released SAIR document, as Dr. Tim Zimmerman was telling fellow SAIT team members Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Jimmy Rocha, Jay Kurth, Anthony Petrilli, Richa Wilson, Larry Sutton and Randy Draeger it did.

        It’s actually a fascinating ( and well-written ) article… and I guess what ‘bothered’ SAIT member Tom Zimmerman was that the author really was making the case that despite anything the SAIT said ( or didn’t say )… it seems perfectly obvious that Eric Marsh “Esse Quam Videri’ed” those men right into their GRAVES.

        That when ‘passion’ becomes ‘obsession’… BAD SHIT can ( and DOES ) happen.

        From that article…
        ——————————————————————–
        On the 30th of June 2013 a fire blew over the Granite Mountain Hotshots outside Yarnell, Arizona, and left 19 dead. Three months later, on September 30, a formal investigation released its findings. The inquiry focused on the mechanics of fire behavior and how the Granite Mountain IHC might have understood their “situational awareness,” which is to say, how the crew recoded the information they were given with what they saw for themselves. Instead of ascribing blame, the investigative team sought to appreciate how the hotshots engaged in sensemaking in an effort to explain decisions that, to nearly all observers, make little sense. But the need for sensemaking extends also to the meaning of the fire for American culture at large.

        Yarnell Hill will become another “race that couldn’t be won.” But the analogy stumbles. The smokejumpers at Mann Gulch had no choice: they were trapped in a closed basin, almost a chute, and would perish unless they could outrace or outsmart the flames. The hotshots at Yarnell Hill were safely on a ridge, in the black, and chose to race with the fire by plunging downhill into a box canyon thick with brush. Theirs was an act of volition denied the jumpers at Mann Gulch. At Mann Gulch the fatal numbers were coded into the scene at its origin. At Yarnell Hill the Granite Mountain Hotshots did the calculations and added the sums incorrectly.

        The Granite Mountain IHC was outfitted with hand tools for cutting fireline, NOT with hoses, pumps, and shielding for defending structures. Before they left the ridge, they were working a free-burning fire; they were assigned to establish an anchor, NOT protect structures. This was NOT an Esperanza fire in which flames washed over an engine crew positioned to defend a house. The Granite Mountain IHC did NOT perish, arms locked, standing between the flames and homes. They died in a box canyon into which they had VOLUNTARILY hiked.

        Legacy agencies are unable to overcome their culture of suppression. They fight fires where and when they shouldn’t because they know no other way to respond; the endless roster of shelter deployments, near-misses, and fatality fires is the inevitable outcome. Even the shock of the South Canyon deaths, the prospects for civil and criminal penalties, and the emphatic edicts from above have failed to dislodge that culture. It invites risk-taking that leads remorselessly to Thirtymile Canyon, Cramer, and Yarnell Hill. The rules keep being broken — must be broken to satisfy the nature of the beast. Implicit, too, is a tint of gender bias; the Granite Mountain crewmen were all young men engaged in what could seem an EXTREME SPORT.

        On the afternoon of June 30th Marsh was a division superintendent, but he left the line to rejoin his crew and then personally lead it away from a blackened ridge and back into the action. He showed an élan and initiative that in many circumstances of life we would applaud but what here looks like an OBSESSION.

        They were SAFE.

        HE took them TO the flames.

        His drive became a fatal flaw and carried the others with him.
        ——————————————————————————

        Reply

        • Followup…

          Those were just a few ‘excerpts’ up above from Stephen Pyne’s article.

          He was not ‘exclusively’ trying to throw Eric Marsh ‘under the bus’ and say that the only ’cause’ of the tragedy was his own “Esse Quam Videri” stuff leading those men right into their GRAVES.

          He does, in fact, leave open the POSSIBILITY that Eric Marsh himself was just “following orders” that afternoon.

          But the article was ‘published’ on November 12, 2013.

          The ADOSH Yarnell Fire report and the fines/citations would not be issued for another MONTH… on December 4, 2013.

          Likewise for even the Aaron Hulburd M2U00265 video ( the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video ). We know now that Mike Dudley and the SAIT had PURPOSELY withheld that video from the evidence they were required ( by law ) to provide to ADOSH… and that video would eventually ‘pop loose’ only because of valid, legal ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests.

          So all author Stephen Pyne really had to ‘go on’ when he wrote article above was the original SAIR report.

          There was NOTHING in that SAIR report that was even suggesting the possibility that Marsh could have been following direct ORDERS when he ‘took them into the place where they would all die’.

          The original SAIR was, itself, subtly trying to ‘throw Granite Mountain under the bus’.

          But even author Stephen Pyne knew ( on November 12, 2013 ) there was likely much more to be known about what happened that day than what could possibly be gleaned from the SAIR document.

          Maybe that is what really made SAIT team member Tom Zimmerman ‘nervous’… and why he felt the need to ALERT all those other SAIT team members to the existence of that new article.

          Reply

          • WTKKT

            You said:

            “The original SAIR was, itself, subtly trying to ‘throw Granite Mountain under the bus’.”

            I agree. The SAIT is the one “bashing the dead” while protecting the living at the cost of future souls dressed in green and yellow. Disgusting!

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • Some would say it wasn’t SUBTLE at all.

              I keep staring at that November 18, 2013 email ( up above ) from Mister “don’t bash the dead” SAIT investigator Jay Kurth.

              SAIT Investigator Jay Kurth is listed in that ‘SAIT Investigation Notes’ document as having been physically present for MOST of the ‘interviews’ the SAIT did ( or at least the ones they ADMIT to having done ).

              In other words… HE ( Kurth ) was getting a better ‘first hand picture’ of what was really going down that day than MOST of the other SAIT members. He was hearing ALL of the ‘stories’…. first-hand.

              And then… in his November 18, 2013, email… he lets slip with this comment about how well Roy Hall fared in the final SAIR report…

              Jay Kurth: “We certainly didn’t do poorly by him. ( Roy Hall )”.

              There’s only two ways to take a statement like that.

              1. There was absolutely NO evidence that Roy Hall did anything but an absolutely STELLAR job running the Yarnell Hill Fire… and we reported that reality in our final report.

              2. There was all kinds of evidence of what an absolute “fuck up” Roy Hall himself was… and how his own incompetence and negligence was an indirect cause of 19 of his own firefighters dying horribly that day… but we decided to cut him a break and not mention any of that in our final report… and just put it ALL on Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.

              I’m leaning ( heavily ) towards “Door Number TWO”, Monty.

              Reply

              • WTKTT,

                I agree with door #2. The most disgusting part (of many disgusting parts) is how proud he is of his ‘accomplishment.’ He’s a real company man that probably has a super promotion in his future if he didn’t already get one, (spit!)

                Woodsman

                Reply

                • Agree.

                  Not to harp on just one statement from Jay Kurth… but again… let’s ‘break down’ that statement of Kurth’s in his email… but with a little more ‘description’ of what he’s actually referring to…

                  We ( the investigators being PAID good taxpayer dollars to find out exactly what happened in Yarnell, on June 30, 2013 in order to, as much as humanly possible, prevent it from happening again ) certainly didn’t do poorly ( mention or point out any evidence of fault or negligence in our final report ) by HIM ( Roy Hall ).

                  It doesn’t mean that ‘evidence’ wasn’t clearly there.
                  Jay Kurth is simply saying they ( the SAIT ) did Roy Hall a ‘favor’ by not ‘going there’.

                  So “not going there” seemed to be a pretty consistent theme for these people who were being PAID to do the initial ‘investigation’ of a National Historic Tragedy.

                  They were deciding, themselves, what was or wasn’t ‘relevant’ to the ‘story’ they WANTED to tell.

                  We actually already KNEW all this… but it’s interesting to see the actual PROOF emerging.

                  Reply

        • This is in response to author John MacLeans excerpt above. Taking issue here:

          “The rules keep being broken — must be broken to satisfy the nature of the beast. Implicit, too, is a tint of gender bias; the Granite Mountain crewmen were all young men engaged in what could seem an EXTREME SPORT.”

          What classic MacLean histrionic bullshit!

          “The rules … Must be broken to satisfy the nature of the beast.” Really?

          Are you kidding me? The rules MUST be broken…? What dramatic bullshit.

          “Implicit, too, is gender bias;” Gender bias? Are you kidding me?

          In your mind MacLean, in your mind.

          There are scores of Crews that are NOT required to break ‘The Rules’ in order to safely and effectively fight wildfires, including protect structures.

          And scores of all male Crews that do NOT engage in your alleged EXTREME SPORT of fighting fire and protecting structures. They do so safely and effectively, including using hand tools and chainsaws WITHOUT water, hoes, pumps, and wrapping.

          Do your research …….

          Reply

          • Three points…

            1. I agree with what you are saying ( even though I believe that paragraph from the article was just author Stephen Pyne going ‘tongue in cheek’ and his way of describing ‘intractable behavior’ ).

            2. The only ‘MacLean’ that seems to be mentioned in Stephen Pyne’s article is ‘Norman MacLean’ ( John MacLean’s father ).

            3. Even though ‘Norman MacLean’ is, in fact, mentioned in Stephen Pyne’s article… I don’t believe the paragraph you are lambasting was being attributed to him in any way. I believe that was all coming from author Stephen Pyne himself.

            Reply

            • Thanks for pointing out my blunder, incorrectly attributing those quotes to John MCLean instead of Stephen Pyne.

              That’s what I get for doing this on a cell phone.

              My reaction is the same. Just replace the name Stephen Pyne for anywhere I mention John Maclean.

              Reply

  70. **
    ** JAY KURTH AND RANDY DRAEGER RESPONDING TO SAIT CO-LEAD
    ** MIKE DUDLEY’S “THANKS FOR HELPING ME HIDE EVIDENCE” EMAIL…

    Once again… here is Mike Dudley ‘thanking’ everyone for the ‘amount of work’ they all put in trying to protect ( sic: HIDE ) the Aaron Hulburd M2U00265 from ADOSH and the media… as well as the other ‘interview’ transcripts that ADOSH never saw.

    But notice the two REPLIES that came in from two of the people Dudley ‘CC’ed on his email… Jay Kurth and Randy Draeger….

    Original FOIA-992 PDF document: PDF page 1298
    ============================================================================
    From: Dudley, Mike -FS
    Sent: 14 Dec 2013 14:35:03 +0000
    To: Clay Templin c8templi (at) blm.gov; Apuzzo, Godot -FS; Brad Mayhew (brad (at) xxxxxxxx.com);
    Draeger, Randy -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS; Gonzales, Ralph H FS; Jennifer Ziegler;
    jim.karels (at) xxxxxxxxxx.com; John.wachter (at) noaa.gov; Jimmy Rocha jrocha (at) xx.xxxx.ca.us;
    Kuhn, Robert – FS; Kurth, Jay -FS; Lance Carbone; lcarbone (at) xxx.com; Manwaring, Robert -FS;
    Petrilli, Anthony C -FS; Phipps, John -FS; rokon (at) xx.xxxxxxx.mt.us; Sutton, Larry – FS;
    tlfoley (at) xxxxxxx.com; Tim Zimmerman; Wilson, Richa -FS
    Subject: FW: Google Alert – Granite Mountain

    Folks,

    Well, after trying to protect this video from release it finally happened yesterday. All of the news outlets have it posted and in addition, the state released the interviews of the FS personnel that were not given permission to be interviewed by ADOSH. In all, it was a media frenzy in Phoenix yesterday.

    I feel for the families having the video posted but I appreciate the amount of work that we put into trying to protection this information.

    MD

    Mike Dudley
    USDA Forest Service
    mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
    801-540-4881

    From: Google Alerts ( googlealerts-noreply (at) google.com )
    Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:04 AM
    To: Dudley, Mike -FS
    Subject: Google Alert – Granite Mountain

    News – 4 new results for Granite Mountain

    It’s the worst firefighting disaster in our state’s history: 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed while working the Yarnell Hill fire. Now we’re hearing their last …

    Radio exchanges shed light on hot shot crew’s final moments KPHO Phoenix
    Before you watch the attached video, we need to warn you that the frantic exchange,
    recorded by a camera mounted to a firefighter’s (not Granite Mountain) …
    See all stories on this topic

    Yarnell Hill Wildfire Report: Last radio transmission MyFox Phoenix
    It is the worst firefighting disaster in our state’s history — 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots …
    It’s heartbreaking to listen to the final moments of the Granite Mountain …
    See all stories on this topic

    Yarnell Hill Fire: Documents reflect campaign that fell into ‘total … azcentral.com
    The documents were compiled by investigators for a report on the fire that killed 19 Granite
    Mountain Hotshots and burned 127 homes June 30 near Prescott.

    See all stories on this topic

    Unsubscribe from this alert.
    Create another alert.
    Manage your alerts.
    ============================================================

    ** JAY KURTH’S REPLY TO DUDLEY’S ‘THANK YOU FOR HELPING’ EMAIL…

    Here is Jay Kurth ‘answering’ Dudley’s email with subject “Re: Google Alert – Granite Mountain”, and broadcasting to the same long list of recipients… and Jay Kurth’s ‘broadcast’ email also includes a comment he just received about it all from fellow SAIT Team member Randy Draeger.

    It’s the comment where Draeger thinks THEY ( the SAIT? USFS? ) should file suit against the media in general for (quote) “mental anguish”…

    ============================================================
    From: Kurth, Jay -FS
    Sent: 14 Dec 2013 16:45:00 +0000
    To: Draeger, Randy -FS
    Cc: Dudley, Mike -FS; c8templi (at) blm.gov;Apuzzo, Godot – FS;
    brad (at ) xxxxxxxx.com; Gonzales, Ralph H – FS;
    jennifer.ziegler (at) xxxx.edu; jim.karels (at) xxxxxxxxxxx.com; John.wachter (at) noaa.gov;
    jrocha (at) xx.xxxx.ca.us; Kuhn, Robert -FS; LCarbone (at) cityofboise.org;
    lcarbone (at) xxxx.com; Manwaring, Robert -FS; Petrilli, Anthony C -FS; Phipps, John -FS;
    rokon (at) xx.xxxxxx.mt.us; Sutton, Larry – FS; tlfoley (at) xxxxxxxxxx.com;
    tomzimmerma (a) xxxxxx.xxx; Wilson, Richa -FS
    Subject: Re: Google Alert – Granite Mountain

    This sucks, and will really be hard on good people. I feel like the release of the statements is a breach in the trust that people gave me, and that is really shitty. I bet the next time someone has to ask for trust To interview people, it will really be bad.

    jk

    Jay Kurth
    Forest Fire Chief Eldorado National Forest (530) 503-5284
    email: jkurth (at) fs.fed.us

    On Dec 14, 2013, at 7:48 AM, “Draeger, Randy -FS” wrote:

    I especially like the new lawsuits … seven homeowners filing against the State for miss managing the fire and their homes being lost …

    I gotta stop reading this crap …

    Wouldn’t it be reasonable for the families to file suit against the homeowners for not having defensible space?

    Oh hell. .. maybe we should file suit against the media for mental anguish caused by them printing half truths and other BS …

    Randy Draeger
    SAIT TEAM MEMBER
    Investigator / Process Coach
    Regional Safety and Health Director
    USFS Intermountain Region
    ————————————————————————————

    So SAIT investigator Randy Draeger thinks THEY ( the SAIT? USFS? ) should sue the media because we all know how publishing half truths and bullshit can cause ‘mental anguish’, right?

    Pot… meet kettle.

    Reply

  71. Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 24, 2016 at 6:29 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura asked…
    >>
    >> https://www.facebook.com/don.feser.5
    >>
    >> is this him RTS? ( Don Feser )?

    Yes, Joy. That is Don Feser’s PUBLIC Facebook page… and beyond what RTS just posted… there is a VERY interesting conversation that also took place there back on April 10, 2015.

    Starting on April 10, 2015 ( a year and a month ago ), Don Feser had a PUBLIC conversation on his Facebook page following the article that John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA wrote about how “Brendan McDonough will testify if legally required”.

    And Don Feser was pulling no punches with regards to the SAIT investigation.

    He set the ‘tone’ of the conversation with this comment…

    “Nobody bothered to ask McDonough what the last inter-crew radio messages were? They must have used the “if you don’t want to know the answer, don’t ask the question” investigative technique.

    and this comment of his as well…

    “What I have read regarding Yarnell doesn’t pass the smell test.”

    And it went on from there… with ‘agreement’ about the ‘Tactical Errors’ obviously made in Yarnell and WHY the SAIT had REFUSED to mention what was so obvious.

    Basically a SCATHING review of the SAIT from these former Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendents and high-level Wildland Firefighters… and an opinion from Feser himself that Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and other SAIT members probably need to (quote) “go down” for the botch job they did.

    And guess who was actually PART of this PUBLIC conversation?

    The mysterious ‘Ivan Pupulidy’… who we now know was basically the ‘secret author’ of the SAIT’s “Nobody did anything wrong, Move along” narrative.

    I don’t actually think Don Feser KNEW that at the time he was having this conversation with Ivan Pupulidy and others.

    ** DIRECT LINK…

    For those who ‘Facebook’… here is a direct link to that PUBLIC conversation that Don Feser and others ( including Ivan Pupulidy ) were having with regards to the SAIT investigation in general…

    https://www.facebook.com/don.feser.5/posts/592772984193156

    ** THE PUBLIC CONVERSATION ITSELF…

    For those who do NOT ‘Facebook’… here’s that PUBLIC conversation…

    NOTE: Sorry if this is a little long… but considering WHO is having this conversation, and what they are saying, it’s worth reading the whole thing…

    ———————————————————————————————
    Don Feser April 10, 2015 · iOS
    McDonough will testify if legally required. This could get interesting.

    Link to external article…
    McDonough will testify if legally required
    April 10, 2015 By John Dougherty
    Article Title: Brendan McDonough will testify if legally required about radio…

    Comments

    Will Spyrison
    Don when John Doughtery investigative reporter met with Doug Campbell and myself I told him to FOIA ICS 201 and 214. I showed him my Station Fire ICS 201 and 214, he had done a lot of FOIA’s for other documents. So Doug and I educated him. Doug spent the rest of the day educate John on CPS. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
    April 10, 2015 at 4:20pm · Like · 3

    Don Feser
    Nobody bothered to ask McDonough what the last inter-crew radio messages were? They must have used the “if you don’t want to know the answer, don’t ask the question” investigative technique.
    April 10, 2015 at 11:48pm · Edited · Like · 10

    Jim Chestnut
    Very interesting situation mades you think what’s up with this.
    April 10, 2015 at 6:15pm · Like · 2

    Tony Duprey
    Don, me thinks you hit the proverbial nail on it’s proverbial head…
    April 10, 2015 at 6:43pm · Edited · Like · 2

    Michael Doyle
    Why almost 2 yrs. to get to this point? I think most folks knew there is a lot more to the story than we were privy to. Don you’re right it’s all about the questions.
    April 10, 2015 at 7:16pm · Like

    Ivan Pupulidy
    We should ask ourselves, “Why would he want to keep this to himself?” Reflecting on that question, might help us to understand why others don’t offer potentially important information.
    April 10, 2015 at 8:54pm · Like

    Tony Duprey
    Ivan… one possible reason (probably wrapped with a myriad of emotions) could be fear of something similar to the fallout from Public Law 107-203.. and how a high profile wildland fire agency applied it…
    April 10, 2015 at 9:29pm · Edited · Like · 1

    Chris Fry
    This is a prime example of how critical lessons learned is buried by political / fear of reprisal bull sh*t. When will we stop making firefighters scared to tell the truth so we can learn from their mishaps! A just culture needs to be fostered!
    April 10, 2015 at 9:58pm · Like · 2

    Larry Peabody
    Death knell for the intercrew net? How about we record fire radio transmissions?
    April 10, 2015 at 10:36pm · Like

    Ivan Pupulidy
    I would not worry so much about the “death nell” of things that block communication, understanding and learning – perhaps we should begin to question some of the assumptions we hold dear in favor of learning from normal work. I am personally really tired of accidents. Bill Miller shared a statistic at FML that the land management agencies loose an average of 16 people per year – when will we give up secrets to keep our friends alive.
    April 10, 2015 at 10:40pm · Like

    Don Feser
    I don’t like to get entangled in this kind of discussion because I wasn’t at Yarnell, and I wasn’t involved in the investigation. I preface my comments by advising that I may be talking through my hat, but I have 35 years of FAM experience, and I also read.

    What I have read regarding Yarnell doesn’t pass the SMELL TEST.

    The first objective of every fire fatality investigation is to limit agency liability, the second objective is to honor the deceased, care for the survivors, and win PR points.

    The third objective is to come up with a plausible explanation for what happened, which supports the first objective.

    The fourth objective is to develop lessons learned in hope that it can prevent similar disasters in the future. If you buy in to my order of objectives, you will discover that the ACTUAL TRUTH is MISSING from the equation.

    Who knows what they told McDonough after the incident, I can only guess. “Your information will only hurt the families who are still grieving, it will destroy our intent to bring the crew back next year, we want you to be a part of the crew in the future.”

    So what has happened since then? I’m guessing that McDonough realizes that he’s been lied to by the authorities, and is probably suffering from survivor’s guilt. He also realizes that he has some culpability by going along with the scam initially, and has secured a lawyer.

    If his statement is true, he probably suffers from nightmares, PTSD, and questions himself as to why he didn’t recognize and communicate the hazardous situation to his supervisor in regards to the placement of the crew. If his statement is true, there are many who were part of the investigation and subsequent coverup who are going down.

    If you don’t agree, do your own research. As I prefaced, I wasn’t there, but I’m basing my opinion on 35 years, Fire Chief of the ANF, and a Type 1 Incident Commander.
    April 11, 2015 at 1:22am · Edited · Like · 13

    Jessy J Hilliard
    I have wondered many times why radio traffic is not monitored and recorded. I know that within structure fire fighting, the radio traffic is often reviewed during the debriefing. The only explanation as to why this does not happen in wild land is that there is often too much radio traffic on multiple frequencies to monitor/record.
    April 10, 2015 at 11:22pm · Like

    Nolan D. Lloyd
    I think you are exactly right Don. You have put into words almost exactly what I’ve been thinking. Sad but true.
    April 11, 2015 at 12:26am · Like

    Nolan D. Lloyd
    There was a push in the 90’s to ban inter-crew frequencies for safety reasons but it failed.
    April 11, 2015 at 12:29am · Like

    Don Feser
    Jessy, radio traffic is recorded at emergency communications centers (dispatch). As long as the traffic can monitored by dispatch, it can be recorded. Incident radio communications, even command net aren’t recorded because the recording systems aren’t a part of the incident radio packages.

    Hotshot crews will often use a discrete frequency for inter-crew communications, these frequencies aren’t even identified in the incident communications plan.

    The Granite Mountain Hotshots were using their discrete frequency at the end, and the question now is what was said, and why wasn’t the discussion if monitored by McDonough included in the final investigation?

    The technology is available, but the funding isn’t. Access to satellite based communications systems like the military has could fill in a lot of gaps.
    April 11, 2015 at 12:38am · Edited · Like · 3

    Ranger Dorn
    Radio traffic on Tactical or discrete frequencies very often would not be heard at the ICP or at a dispatch center for recording as they are local, non repeated transmissions. I like the satellite based comms noted by Don. Might help many aspects missing now.
    April 11, 2015 at 11:14am · Like · 1

    Gene Rogers
    If we could only move such processes more quickly. Sounds like rumors from months ago are forming up an image of possible truth.
    April 11, 2015 at 2:33pm · Like · 2

    Michael Doyle
    I don’t think communications on the line is necessarily the issue, the squirrel channels have been there a long time. It’s a good thing to be able to converse freely back and forth between your crew i.e. “what the hell, these lunches suck”, whatever. I believe and I think others do was well, that Prescott F.D. was trying to assimilate a culture too rapidly, a culture that taken generations of federal agencies to develop. We all want our crews to be the best, but it takes many years to make and a lot of experienced leadership to make a Los Padres, El Cariso, Del Rosa, or Fulton et al Hotshots. Granite Mountain was on the fast track, they cut corners and they ended up paying the ultimate price. I apologize for for not being politically correct, but there is no fast track when it comes to young peoples lives, no matter how good you think your fire department is.
    April 11, 2015 at 7:45pm · Like · 2

    Don Feser
    You make an excellent point in regards to crew culture and history. In 2001, I was able to reestablish two IHCs on the ANF. The ANF used to have six IHCs back in the ’70s. In 1979, Chilao, Oak Grove, and Little Tujunga were cut due to budget reductions. I wanted to bring back two of the original crews in order to reap the benefit of the crew history and support from the alumni. Unfortunately facility issues prevented it from happening. We did eventually reestablish Little Tujunga, and the alumni really got behind the program. It was a major challenge to develop and retain the skill levels and qualifications however. With some programs, once they’re disbanded it’s very difficult to bring them back, which supports your argument in regards to starting a new program altogether.
    April 12, 2015 at 12:05am · Edited · Like · 2

    Gene Rogers
    it ain’t about the crew net.
    April 12, 2015 at 12:01am · Like · 1

    Don Feser
    Let’s agree to disagree for the moment, and allow Brendan McDonough to be deposed as to the crew net conversations. Who communicated, what was communicated, and who were the witnesses to the radio transmissions? I hope this kid is strong enough to carry the day. If his account of the incident is accurate, then he will carry the day.
    April 12, 2015 at 1:05am · Like · 1

    Gene Rogers
    Don: Tactical Errors
    April 12, 2015 at 1:11am · Like · 1

    Don Feser
    I understand there were tactical errors, but the official report doesn’t identify any errors.
    April 12, 2015 at 1:15am · Like · 1

    Gene Rogers
    thus my point
    April 12, 2015 at 1:15am · Like

    Don Feser
    That’s also my point.
    April 12, 2015 at 1:20am · Like

    Gene Rogers
    I will help you slap the face of the appropriate beauracrat
    April 12, 2015 at 1:21am · Like

    Don Feser
    This will end up as a civil lawsuit in the future with the City of Prescott, and the State of Arizona, as defendants in several venues. No lessons learned, but it will make good discussion for old firefighters sipping whisky and smoking cigars.
    April 12, 2015 at 10:51am · Edited · Like · 3
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • Thanks WTKTT–Don Fesser with his 35 years of wild land fire fighting and running crews had must to say and his thinking is right along with the majority of people who are hoping to eventually know the truth. That 16 people a year are killed on average throught BLM errors really hit the high note after June 31, 2013. These men talking back and forth on this thing are right on,

      Everyone wondered why Donut never came through with the truth–but actually understood the system and how far down the line Don Feser lists the importance of safety–

      This part of what WTKTT brings to us a public information from the Don Feser conversations bears repeating:

      “Don Feser
      I don’t like to get entangled in this kind of discussion because I wasn’t at Yarnell, and I wasn’t involved in the investigation. I preface my comments by advising that I may be talking through my hat, but I have 35 years of FAM experience, and I also read.

      What I have read regarding Yarnell doesn’t pass the SMELL TEST.

      The first objective of every fire fatality investigation is to limit agency liability, the second objective is to honor the deceased, care for the survivors, and win PR points.

      The third objective is to come up with a plausible explanation for what happened, which supports the first objective.

      The fourth objective is to develop lessons learned in hope that it can prevent similar disasters in the future. If you buy in to my order of objectives, you will discover that the ACTUAL TRUTH is MISSING from the equation.

      Who knows what they told McDonough after the incident, I can only guess. “Your information will only hurt the families who are still grieving, it will destroy our intent to bring the crew back next year, we want you to be a part of the crew in the future.””

      Feser also supports Provencio and Fred when he says the GMHS cerws were cutting corners and attempting to prove themselves as a top wild land and structural crew.

      Thanks WTKTT–You come up with some fantastic information from people alike Don Feser with credentials no one can argue with.

      Reply

  72. I read it wrong—I am pretty ill—thought Don said it- so it was a sait member Jay-

    sorry don

    but it does bring up a good point—

    the newer link http://www.investigativemedia.com/investigativemedia-releases-forest-service-records-on-yarnell-hill-fire/ revealed something to me a civilian-
    why is it you suppose Dave P. and RTS were brought to light to John Dougherty with his foia request with NOT ALL the emails except “let’s shine light on those 2″…was it to throw RTS under the bus and tie in Dave too because they knew he would write on it and GREAT because it keeps John from the real information not yet out? If we talk about RTS and Dave then less chance to dig for the real tidbits not yet shown…Like it or not I know there is more details…either they fess up and come out or in due time that truth will be lit up indeed…again sorry Don…gave you alot of air time here; hot air!

    Reply

    • people- focus—what areas are not touched much— look there…

      I wish that dispatcher knew how important she is and as well as air to ground missing elements-

      maybe some day but I gotta focus to knocking this bad round of health boxing me down-

      Reply

    • Joy,

      Sure glad you figured it out. Geez, you were sure on a rant with a lot more than hot air.

      Reply

      • It was the alleged SAIT “Investigator” Jay Kurth that posted all that. Rip and tear on him, not Feser.

        Reply

        • Speaking of “rip and tear”… get a load of the following ‘April 10, 2015’ PUBLIC conversation on Feser’s Facebook page.

          Former Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent ( other high-level WFF people ) are basically ripping the SAIT a new one and calling it the “Don’t ask any hard questions if you don’t want the answers” approach to accident investigation.

          Feser himself says he thinks Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Jay Kurth, and the rest of the SAIT should (quote) “go down” for the ‘botch job’ they did and the disservice they did to the WFF Community.

          And guess who was PART of that PUBLIC conversation ripping the SAIT a new one?… the mysterious ‘Ivan Pupulidy’… the ‘secret’ author of the SAIT itself…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336612

          Reply

  73. question RTS- is Don Feser a PAID SPEAKER within the firefighting/wildland/etc. community?
    is he a guest speaker ever? what topics does he cover?

    Reply

  74. This is from the May 19, 2016, Facebook page of Don Feser, a very experienced and well respected USFS Wildland fire supervisor:

    Here is SAIT Investigator Jay Kurth posting on the SAIT and SAIR:

    “It was a learning review, not an investigation. They weren’t findings. It was a statement of the story as best as could be put together from the information provided. We wrote specifically about the incident and what could be backed up with proof. It was as factually accurate as could be at the time. It was intentional to not draw suppositions or make bullshit assumptions about Marshes or Steeds thinking when it could not be backed up except with hindsight arrogance. Oh not everyone tells the whole story when asked either….”

    “Does it make you feel better to bash the dead? Nowhere did the report explicitly say all choices were right. As I recall the words were something about no fault. Like a no contest plea. We left it to the firefighters to learn from what was written and provided some decision points where people could make sense of the choices that were acted upon and draw their own conclusions. All of you who relish in blame and revile in your own glory by bashing the system and slandering the review team should consider your own motivation. It certainly does not appear to be learning.”

    Reply

    • “It was a learning review, not an investigation. LEARNING REVIEW? THE SAIR IS CALLED SERIOUS ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION REPORT..CATCH THAT WORD…IT IS WAS NOT A TEAM HIRED ON TO REVIEW AND HIDE AND NARRATE AND CREATE THEIR OWN LESSONS- SORRY—WHAT DID GARY SAY THIS MORNING—COUGH, COUGH…BULLSHIT

      Reply

      • They weren’t findings. It was a statement of the story as best as could be put together from the information provided. HORSESHIT- THEY HAVE RTS AIR TO GROUND INFORMATION, THEY HAVE DISPATCH INFORMATION, THE HAVE FIREFIGHTERS INFORMATION YET THE WORLD DO NOT—THEY ARE NOT FREEMASONS OR NASA

        Reply

        • I just sent a email to Bill-

          I want answers—-

          I have foias for the above in and I could not care less how long it took for me to get them because he said he was working on a concern with the families lawyer but no way this man thinks I am going to BUY they USED information provided-
          ain’t buying it

          Reply

          • We wrote specifically about the incident and what could be backed up with proof. It was as factually accurate as could be at the time. It was intentional to not draw suppositions or make bullshit assumptions about Marshes or Steeds thinking when it could not be backed up except with hindsight arrogance. Oh not everyone tells the whole story when asked either….”

            “Does it make you feel better to bash the dead? WHO IS BASHING- WE WANT PURE TRUTHS—SO REALLY LESSONS CAN BE LEARNED-

            Reply

            • We wrote specifically about the incidentTHE WAY YOU WANTED US TO KNOW IT NOT THE WAY IT HAPPENED…LEAVE THAT FOR HOLLYWOOD SIR…LET JEFF BRIDGES AND JOSH BROLIN “ACT” THAT PART…YOUR DUTIES IF YOU WERE ON THE TEAM WAS TO TELL THE WORLD THE TRUTH! NOT A NARRATIVE,

              and what could be backed up with proof.OR PROOF HIDDEN— H E L L O— WHAT ABOUT VIDEOS HIDDEN UNTIL THIS SITE MADE IT GET COUGHED UP—COME ON! MY FACE IS BEET RED!

              It was as factually accurate as could be at the time BULLSHIT

              . It was intentional to not draw suppositions or make bullshit
              NO YOU MADE BULLSHIT-

              assumptions about Marshes or Steeds thinking when it could not be backed up except with hindsight arrogance. THIS AIN’T ABOUT EGOS BUT ACTUAL VIDEOS AND PROOF- SUCKA— GET REAL! I AIN’T BUYING IT.

              Oh not everyone tells the whole story when asked either….WELL THEY SHOULD WHEN 19 GOOD MEN LOST THEIR LIVES—DON’T YOU THINK—

              ”Nowhere did the report explicitly say all choices were right.
              THIS AIN’T ABOUT CHOICES—THIS IS ABOUT PRESENTING THE FACTS TO THAT DAY VERSUS THE HORSESHIT NARRATIVE-

              As I recall the words were something about no fault.NO FAULT-
              TOTALLY GET THAT SIR—TOTALLY BUT MISTAKES WERE MADE AND YOU PEOPLE HID THEM—AND LESSONS NEED TO BE LEARNED PROPERLY OR IT WILL KEEP HAPPENING…

              Like a no contest plea. THAT IS SICKENING AND HOW CAN YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT WHEN LIVES WERE LOST—

              We left it to the firefighters to learn from what was written and provided some decision points where people could make sense of the choices that were acted upon and draw their own conclusions. TELL THE TRUTH

              WHAT THE HELL

              All of you who relish in blame HEY HEY HEY THIS IS NOT ABOUT BLAME BUT GETTING FACTS OUT TO PROPERLY ASSESS THIS—SO STOP THIS BULLSHIT ON BLAME GAMES AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES BECAUSE I AM NOT ABOUT THAT BUT I AM ABOUT THE MISSING ELEMENTS TO COME FORWARD…AND NOT THESE DAMN LEAKS MANY ARE GETTING…

              and revile in your own glory by bashing the systemTHIS IS NOT ABOUT BASHING A SYSTEM BUT HONORING THE MISTAKES AND MAKE SOME PROPER ADJUSTMENTS-

              and slandering the review team should consider your own motivation.THE REVIEW TEAM DID THE PUBLIC A DISSERVICE- END OF STORY.

              It certainly does not appear to be learning.”WE CAN’T LEARN WHEN YOU HIDE SO MUCH CRAP

              Reply

      • if so, I too liked John Riggins in the 70’s-

        I never was into football like my family are with their fantasy football and events they do but I did enjoy 1970’s football because it was not such a bullshit then—oops—used Gary’s word.

        Reply

      • where is this Don?

        Don Feser, former fire chief of the Angeles National Forest, said it was senseless to have kept crews at the camp, especially because they were waiting for the blaze to reach them rather than actively confronting it.

        “It wasn’t like there was any engagement going on,” he said. “It was an oversight, I’m guessing, in the county command system. . . . They either forgot about them, or the people who were calling shots for the county were oblivious about what could happen to them.”

        Feser, who retired in 2007 after seven years as chief, said it was a mistake not to include the camp in the wider Station fire fight: “The incident command teams should have been double-checking to make sure that they didn’t have anybody out there, that everybody’s been evacuated.”

        http://wildfiretoday.com/2009/12/31/more-details-emerge-about-the-loss-of-2-firefighters-and-camp-16/

        Reply

    • Well, you sure gave me a bone with a lot of meat on it this time. Let me see if I can come up with something off the cuff…

      Dear Mr. Kurth,

      After reviewing the Serious Accident Investigation Report (SAIR) written by the Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT), I was not expecting a “learning review,” I was expecting an investigation. Perhaps the fact that the word “investigation” is clearly present in both the team’s name and the report’s name led me to this expectation. I imagine that one of your organization’s reasons for changing the name of this product from Serious Accident Investigation Report (SAIR) to Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) is to eliminate the expectation of actually receiving an investigative report following a serious accident or fatality on a wildfire.

      When you say that the report was a “statement of the story as best as could be put together from the information provided,” are you aware that in the data collection process for the Yarnell Hill report that the leader of the investigation team was contacted directly by at least 2 former IHC superintendents and the offer of information about the crew was ignored? How, in your mind, should information such as this be handled when a team is compiling a report for a learning review? What is your process for determining proof of facts and whether or not to include such information about an incident?

      You said: “it’s as factually accurate as could be at the time.” Is there a mechanism that you know of in existence to handle ‘new information’ as it comes available during the process of compiling a learning review report? What formal training does the staff of a learning review report team have in regards to investigative process, hypothesis testing, or systematic and scientific methodology?

      How do you know that “not everyone tells the whole story when asked either….?” When confronted with this situation, what is done in order to correct the factual record?

      You said: “Does it make you feel better to bash the dead?” There are those that will always be critical of firefighters on an incident where a serious injury or fatality occurs. This can be a manifestation of shock, sadness, anger, or any number of emotional responses to a tragedy of such magnitude of the death of almost an entire hotshot crew. While I, me personally, have strived to respect the survivors of Granite Mountain and ‘tread lightly’ due to the enormous pain involved, I also believe that the whole truth can assist in the healing process and prevention of similar circumstances from happening in the future. I do not wish for the 19 members of Granite Mountain to have perished for nothing at all. A case can be made that I have been bashing the “living” for it’s the living members of the group of wildland firefighters that share the blame and responsibility of what happened June 30, 2013 at Yarnell Hill. Granite Mountain was not on an island, working alone, totally absent of outside forces or influence on the hill that day.

      The current system of SAIR or CRP or whatever you want to call it, serves to protect the land management agencies and associated personnel from prosecution, blame, or responsibility at the expense of truth, enhancing the possibility of recurrence of such tragedy. It’s convenient to ignore facts that prove guilt to the living and condemn the dead, so who is really “bashing the dead” in this current situation?

      In response to this statement: “All of you who relish in blame and revile in your own glory by bashing the system and slandering the review team should consider your own motivation. It certainly does not appear to be learning,” I am more than pleased to share my personal motivation with you.

      I’ve grown weary of incompetent and unqualified fireline leadership on incidents across the country. After all of the previous line of duty deaths in year’s past, we are still losing firefighters for no good reason at all. The nebulous and inconclusive “investigative reports” serve no real purpose in preventing this loss of life. The reports primary purpose seems to be to shield agencies and personnel from liability – and the number of wildland firefighter fatalities continues to climb with no end in sight. This is the real tragedy here. My motivation is the total elimination of wildland firefighter deaths for no good reason by accurate and truthful analysis of all the facts in such occurrence. One more step should be made after this: sharing of the whole truth to the families and loved ones of the dead and timely dissemination of this truth to the field so that all may have the best probability of going home safely after fighting a wildfire.

      If we do not measure up to this standard we are guilty of a breach of the public trust and should be ashamed of ourselves. Those who do not believe in this standard should find another line of work immediately.

      Without these truths and transparency, the members of the SAIT or members of the CRP cadre are the people who are actually “bashing the dead,” not those who are seeking the truth. It’s YOU who are judging that the 19 members of Granite Mountain died for no good reason.

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • Woodsman,

        I don’t always agree with your perspective but you are right on target with this one! Good job!

        Reply

        • Norb,

          The world sure would be an uninteresting place if we all agreed with each other all of the time. Thanks for the kind words!

          Woodsman

          Reply

          • Even though I retired as a Division Chief I am still able to give credit when and where it is deserved, and your post nailed it!

            Reply

      • Reply to Woodsman post on May 24, 2016 at 7:30 pm

        >> Woodsman…
        >>
        >> I’ve grown weary of incompetent and unqualified fireline
        >> leadership on incidents across the country.

        Sounds like the “house” is all “stunk up”.

        Past time to “take out the trash”.

        Reply

    • Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on May 24, 2016 at 5:23 pm

      >> RTS said…
      >>
      >> Here is SAIT Investigator Jay Kurth posting on the SAIT and SAIR:
      >>
      >> Jay Kurth said…
      >>
      >> “It was a learning review, not an investigation”.

      “Oh what a tangled web we weave… when first we practice to deceive”.

      Why don’t we (first) just look at the CONTRACT which spelled out what it was SUPPOSED to be?

      Here is some of that “Delegation of Authority” document that was reproduced in the actual “Serious Accident Investigation (SAIR) report itself as ‘Appendix G’.

      This is the letter, signed by Hunt, Karels AND Dudley, that went straight to the Governor of Arizona’s desk… and she SIGNED it… believing that what was contained AND implied in the letter is what she was authorizing millions of taxpayer dollars to actually PRODUCE…

      From PDF page 118 of the actual “Serious Accident Investigation Report”…

      —————————————————-
      To: Janice K. Brewer – Governor of Arizona
      From: Scott Hunt – Arizona State Forester

      Arizona State Forestry Division
      Office of the State Forester
      1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
      Phonenix, AZ 85007
      (602) 771-1400

      Serious Accident Investigation Team – Delegation of Authority

      On the afternoon of June 30, 2013, nineteen members of the Granite Mountain Type 1 Hotshot Crew from Prescott, Arizona were killed while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      As the State Forester of Arizona, I authorize Jim Karel’s Serious Accident Investigation Team….

      I also authorize Mike Dudley as the Deputy Team Leader.

      Your duties INCLUDE but are not limited to:

      1. Organizing, conducting, and controlling the accident investigation.
      2. Providing for in briefings and out briefings with affected agency officials.
      3. Coordinating information exchange between team members, local law enforcement, coroner’s office, and others.
      4. Requesting techincal, logistical, or other support as required to conduct the investigation.
      5. Assist the State Forester’s information staff with addressing the media on your makeup, purpose, methodology, and estimated timelines, including attending press conferences if necessary.
      6. The Forestry Division shall be the final repository for all team paperwork and reports.
      7. Provide the following formal briefing reports:

      A) Expanded Report ( 72 Hours )
      B) Factual AND Management Report.

      SIGNED by…

      Scott Hunter – 7-3-13
      Jim Karels, Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
      Mike Dudley, Deuputy Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
      —————————————————-

      Remember… that “Serious Accident Investigation” authorization letter is printed right there in ‘Appendix G’ of the resulting “Serious Accident Investigation Report” itself.

      * Also…

      On the TITLE page of the “Serious Accident Investigation Report”…

      ————————————————————————————————-
      Serious Accident Investigation Report
      September 23, 2013
      ————————————————————————————————-

      * Also… from PDF page 12 of the “Serious Accident Investigation Report”…

      The ‘Serious Accident Investigation Team’ held two sessions with Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) to review the draft INVESTIGATION report.

      * Also… from PDF page 17 of the “Serious Accident Investigation Report”…

      …the ‘Serious Accident Investigation Team relied on others involved with the fire and with the crew, as well as on data gathered during the investigation, to reconstruct the most accurate account possible.

      * Also… from PDF page 51 of the “Serious Accident Investigation Report”…

      This Discussion explores issues and questions that the Yarnell Hill Fire brings to the forefront for all wildland fire operations. Various team members and SMEs raised these issues and questions throughout the INVESTIGATION.

      * Also… from PDF page 86 of the “Serious Accident Investigation Report”..

      The fire behavior/weather team for the investigation received outputs in multiple formats, including Google Earth KMZ files, GIS-ready shape files, and ASCII Grids.

      * Also… from PDF page 86 of the “Serious Accident Investigation Report”..

      PPE Inspection: This report compiles information from accident site visits, examination of photographs of the site taken by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department and the accident investigation team,

      * Also… from PDF page 122 of the “Serious Accident Investigation Report”..

      Appendix J: Acknowledgements
      The following people and organizations contributed to this report by providing information, assistance, and resources. Their efforts profoundly contributed to the INVESTIGATION…

      * And… of course… at the very BOTTOM of pretty much ALL 122 pages of the ‘Serious Accident Investigation Report’ document… we have this…

      Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation – ( PAGE NUMBER )

      >> Jay Kurth also said…
      >>
      >> They weren’t findings.

      Bullshit.

      From PDF page 8 of your “Serious Accident Investigation Report”
      ——————————————————————————–
      The “Serious Accident Investigation Team” generated the following conclusions:

      The Granite Mountain IHC… crew followed all standards and guidelines as stated in the Standards for Interagency Hotshot Crew Operations and the Arizona State Forestry Division’s Standard Operational Guideline 804.

      The Granite Mountain IHC left the lunch spot and traveled southeast on the two-track road near the ridge top. Then, they descended from the two-track road and took the most direct route towards Boulder Springs Ranch. The “Serious Accident Investigation Team believes the crew was attempting to reposition so they could reengage.

      The Granite Mountain IHC did not perceive excessive risk in repositioning to Boulder Springs Ranch.

      The “Serious Accident Investigation Team” found NO indication that the Granite Mountain IHC doubted the black was a valid safety zone, or that they moved towards the Boulder Springs Ranch because they feared for their safety if they stayed in the black.

      The judgments and decisions of the incident management organizations managing this fire were reasonable. Firefighters performed within their scope of duty, as defined by their respective organizations. The “Serious Accident Investigation Team found NO indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.
      ————————————————————————————

      Once again… so Jay can keep up…

      Jay Kurth said…

      “They weren’t FINDINGS.”

      Jay Kurth’s ‘Serious Accident Investigation Report’ said…

      The ‘Serious Accident Investigation Team’ FOUND NO indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.”

      The top-level FINDING was that “NO one did anything wrong. Nothing to see here. Move along”.

      >> Jay Kurth also said…
      >>
      >> It was a statement of the story as best as could be put together from
      >> the information provided.

      Horesehit, Jay ( Giving equal time to other barnyard critters ).

      From the “information provided”?

      Do you REALLY think we ( and the general public that PAYS for ALL of this ) are THAT stupid?

      Even before we could see the emails we can NOW see ( thanks to InvestigativeMEDIA ) it was perfectly obvious that your “Serious Accident Investigation Team” was purposely IGNORING not only a LOT of evidence and ‘information’ that WAS ‘provided’… but other evidence that people WERE trying their BEST to “PROVIDE YOU”.

      >> Jay Kurth also said…
      >>
      >> We wrote specifically about the incident and what could be backed up with proof.

      Rabbitshit, Jay ( still trying to be fair to all critters ).

      Just ONE example ( time is short )…

      Where is the PROOF for the ‘statement’ you used to officially ‘end’ your concocted “30 minute blackout” period? That ‘statement’ is only coming from the vague recollection of just ONE single person ( Air Attack John Burfiend )… and there is no RECORDING of it… yet you CHOSE to call that a ‘verified’ radio transmission… when you ALSO CHOSE to ignore other perfectly clear DIRECT communications with Granite Mountain during your concocted ‘blackout’ period… even though those communications WERE ‘recorded’.

      You CHOSE to accept some vague memory coming from just one person as ‘verified proof’… because it fit the ‘narrative’ you wanted to write… and you CHOSE to ignore other even MORE clear ‘evidence’… ( recorded ) because it did NOT ( fit your chosen narrative ).

      >> Jay Kurth also said…
      >>
      >> It was as factually accurate as could be at the time.

      No.

      It was ONLY as ‘factually accurate’ as you and Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the rest of that “Serious Accident Investigation Team” WANTED it to be.

      No more.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’… )

      Reply

      • ( Continued from previous post )…

        >> Jay Kurth also said…
        >>
        >> It was intentional to not draw suppositions or make bullshit assumptions
        >> about Marshes or Steeds thinking when it could not be backed up except
        >> with hindsight arrogance.

        You’re killin’ me Jay. You really are.

        Drawing suppositions and making assumptions… a quick Lightning Round!…

        SAIR PDF page 8…

        The Granite Mountain IHC had been watching the active fire burn away from their position all day but their observations did NOT lead them to anticipate the approaching outflow boundary or the accompanying significant fire behavior changes.

        SAIR PDF page 9…

        The Granite Mountain IHC left the lunch spot and traveled southeast on the two-track road near the ridge top. Then, they descended from the two-track road and took the most direct route towards Boulder Springs Ranch. The ‘Serious Accident Investigation Team believes the crew was attempting to reposition so they could reengage.

        SAIR page 9…

        The Granite Mountain IHC did NOT perceive excessive risk in repositioning to Boulder Springs Ranch.

        SAIR PDF page 9…

        The Team found NO indication that the Granite Mountain IHC doubted the black was a valid safety zone, or that they moved towards the Boulder Springs Ranch because they feared for their safety if they stayed in the black.

        SAIR PDF page 9…

        It is possible THEY ( Marsh and Steed, etc. ) may have interpreted the early wind shift as the anticipated wind event.

        SAIR PDF page 31…

        Personnel at various locations saw the early wind shifts and MAY have interpreted them to mean the anticipated wind event was fully manifested.

        SAIR PDF page 49…

        In retrospect, the importance of the 1526 weather update is clear. However, the update appears to have carried less relevance in the crew’s decision-making process, perhaps due to the wind shift (starting at about 1550) that preceded the outflow boundary, or perhaps because of the time it took the outflow boundary to reach the south end of the fire (at 1630). It is possible they may have interpreted the early wind shift as the anticipated wind event.

        SAIR PDF page 53…

        A culture of engagement and a bias for action is part of wildland firefighter identity and a factor in their success, and in this case, a bias for engagement may have prompted them to move.

        SAIR PDF page 57…

        Operations and the Granite Mountain IHC’s subsequent radio conversation may have led many on the fire to mentally file the crew back in the “safe” category.

        SAIR PDF page 58…

        Members of the Blue Ridge IHC moved through the green all day in areas that subsequently burned. We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.

        NOTE: And that’s just a ‘Lightning Round’ from the SAIR. I could ( of course ) go on… and on… and on.

        >> Jay Kurth said…
        >>
        >> Nowhere did the report explicitly say all choices were right.
        >> As I recall the words were something about no fault. Like a no contest plea.

        In case you have actually lost a copy of your own document…

        From PDF page 8 of your “Serious Accident Investigation Report”
        ——————————————————————————-
        The “Serious Accident Investigation Team” generated the following conclusions:

        The Granite Mountain IHC… crew followed all standards and guidelines as stated in the Standards for Interagency Hotshot Crew Operations and the Arizona State Forestry Division’s Standard Operational Guideline 804.

        The judgments and decisions of the incident management organizations managing this fire were reasonable. Firefighters performed within their scope of duty, as defined by their respective organizations. The “Serious Accident Investigation Team found NO indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.
        —————————————————————————————————

        CONCLUSION: No one did ANYTHING WRONG… and 19 men burned to death on the floor of a fuel-filled blind box canyon at the height of a burn cycle with no designated lookout, and no ‘eyes on the fire’ until it was too late to even save themselves.

        >> Jay Kurth said…
        >>
        >> We left it to the firefighters to learn from what was written.

        Okay… WHAT ( in your opinion ) are they SUPPOSED to learn ‘from what was written’?

        Go ahead. Tell us. This channel is WIDE OPEN ( as always ).

        Reply

  75. **
    ** JEFF BRIDGES AND TAYLOR KITSCH JOIN CAST OF UPCOMING YARNELL MOVIE

    Who’s next… Tom Cruise?

    The following ‘announcement’ appeared at ‘Screen Relish’ this morning…

    NOTE: Kosinski’s movie is no longer going to be named “No Exit”… but no word on a new title.

    Screen Relish ( Source: Variety )
    Article Title: Jeff Bridges And Taylor Kitsch Join Forces For Firefighter Drama
    Posted on May 23 2016 – 9:36am by Lewis Stephenson
    http://www.screenrelish.com/2016/05/23/jeff-bridges-taylor-kitsch-join-forces-firefighter-drama/

    From the article…
    ———————————————————————–
    Joseph Konsinski’s next film, a firefighter drama previously titled No Exit, has added Jeff Bridges and Taylor Kitsch to its bumper cast that includes Josh Brolin, Miles Teller and James Badge Dale.

    Ken Nolan’s script follows the Granite Mountain Hotshots, a group working in the Prescott Fire Department in Arizona who specialize in battling wildfires. In June 2013 they were sent to battle the Yarnell Hill Fire, which threatened the town of Yarnell, and proved to be especially deadly with the loss of 19 of the 20 men, the biggest loss of life for firefighters in a wildfire since 1933 and biggest loss of firefighters since September 11th.

    The film is now in pre-production after being sold at this year’s Cannes Film Festival, no word on a release date or a new title are known currently however. Bridges has, obviously, worked with Konsinski before on TRON: LEGACY and he can next be seen in HELL OR HIGH WATER. Kitsch can be heard in BLING later this year but is currently working on his own directorial debut, PIECES.

    Source: Variety
    ———————————————————————–

    Reply

      • …and The Dude (Jeff Bridges) is on board!

        My mind is still BLOWN by the emails that were released thanks to JD.
        USFS really were running some sort of circus during the investigation.
        Behind the scenes deals and only sharing what they wanted with who they wanted.

        I TRY and see the good in everyone (maybe I’m naive) until they prove me wrong. I was hoping we would read about hoe they actually wanted to help the relatives understand, as much as the families could take anyway, exactly what happened to their sons/fathers/husbands and WHY. All I see is a lot of arse covering, a lot of bury any bad news that can hurt USFS, and a whole lot of “we’ll only let you know what we want you to know”. it STINKS.

        The omissions (as pointed out by Joy and others here) from the electronic records obtained by JD speaks volumes! It proves they will go to any lengths to mislead.

        Reply

        • OMG…that went right over my head…The Dude! Of course!

          “I’m the Dude. So that’s what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you’re not into the whole brevity thing. The Dude,”

          Thank God you are monitoring this blog Otis!

          Reply

          • Good to hear from Otis here–shows some of the world keeping track of our illustrious FS and their efforts to stay in the black.

            Reply

          • Good to hear from Otis here–shows some of the world keeping track of our illustrious FS and their efforts to stay in the black.

            Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on May 24, 2016 at 5:56 am

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> Oh I hope so. I just luv Tom Cruise!

        A fiver will get you a sawbuck that Jeff Bridges has been hired to play Gary Cordes.

        Can’t you just picture the standard Arizona cowboy handle-bar mustache… and Bridges saying two of Cordes’ favorite phrases heard in the radio captures.

        “Real broken” ( To Brian Frisby, when Cordes didn’t copy his transmission )

        “Sounds like a plan” ( In response to Esquibel saying he’d send those engines to the BSR to check on Granite Mountain as soon as he regrouped his task force at the Ranch House Restaurant ).

        That sawbuck will get you a benjamin that Kosinski is also going to film ‘Jeff Bridges’ rescuing the acting equivalents of Bryan Smith and his 84 years cousin Peal Moore in Glen Ilah… even though Bryan Smith himself has now proved that original AZCENTRAL article was FALSE… and that Gary Cordes did no such thing.

        According to Bryan Smith himself… it was Dan Sullivan and HIS truck who rescued him and Pearl ( Rest in Peace, Pearl Moore ).

        Reply

  76. http://www.azcentral.com/video/2894011161001

    minute marker 1:05-1:40 important statements to remember

    nothing came from ADOSH like it should have— John Dougherty, it is TIME to get a Prescott conference together to meet with all people who hidden have information— it’s time to grab that one guy who was on jury duty the day we wanted to meet you and all and also grab the local dispatch team…it’s time John…

    Reply

    • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 23, 2016 at 1:19 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura wroe…
      >>
      >> http://www.azcentral.com/video/2894011161001
      >>
      >> minute marker 1:05-1:40 important statements to remember

      Here is what is being said at those points in the video…

      Video Title: Families of fallen firefighters react to Yarnell ( ADOSH ) report
      ————————————————————————————-
      +1:04
      Speaker: David Turbyfill, father of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill

      At the bottom of line of this is… the Incident Command lost control of their
      entire organization out in the field… and at the bottom line of this is that
      they did not have the proper protective gear to survive a tragedy such
      as we’ve seen.

      +1:24
      Speaker: Juliann Ashcraft, widow of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft

      They should NOT have still been on that fire under those conditions… and that’s where
      the issue lies. What happened in those last two minutes is horrific. I relive it in my
      mind every day. But that’s not where the problem lies. It’s WHY were they ever THERE
      in those last two minutes?… and that’s kind of what I feel like today they ( ADOSH ) pointed
      out some of THOSE things that happened… that should NOT have happened.

      —————————————————————————————–

      Reply

  77. agreed Charlie. fire fighters certainly deserves a Congressional Inquest-

    In Santo’s book she mentions WHERE THE SIDEWALK ENDS (Shel Silverstein) and in that book…”Homemade Boat” would be the title I would give the SAIR-

    In the book-
    Photo- people sunk
    POEM: This boat that we just built is just fine and don’t try and tell us it’s not. The sides and the back are divine. It’s the bottom I guess we forgot.

    So it goes t show you in the writings of others the men speak from beyond…eventually the ones who put the SAIR out will comprehend your boat has no bottom—

    Sunk.

    Reply

    • Ya…an inquest with racks and stocks and chairs so we can dump them into Lynx Lake until they give it up. More like an Inquisition. If they float, we will know they are lying their asses off.

      Reply

      • It does seem strange that with all we are seeing that 19 wild land fire fighters have died and nothing as far as a Congressional Investigation has been considered.

        Something else –there is now 90 locals dead since the fire–that is 30 per year since the fire in a community of 645 people. Dump this agent orange retardant near little communities you want to get rid of the older generation in. It is a silent killer deemed inert but I see something that kills fish instantly and old people almost. Maybe this shit is like Uranium in a way–whew 230,000 gallons right in our back yards–something ain’t right since I believe the dying here was no where on the order of 30 per year before the fire–maybe three deaths a year—now multiplied by ten. Will the scale go down now that a great many of our elderly are gone. I am supposed to be gone by November by doctors estimates. Well I have been told a 10% chance to live a year and November this year will be the deadline since I was told by a very prominent doctor in Cardiology. That means I am living on the edge right now kind of like dropping off the two track of life, except I have no one bossing me to go there–it just is what it is. I do wonder if I am one of those affected by this retardant and its trade secret chemicals. What would you do if you knew you had only until a 10″% chance to make it to November–probably wouldn’t take any orders to drop off a two track even if you had been there–I was there. I hope the good Doctor’s statistics are wrong or at least I am one of the 10% that make it to November and beyond–I am one that would like to see the truth of the Yarnell change things for the wild land fire fighter. I understand that hard way of making a living–yet not regretting one moment of doing it that way. I sometimes think the aliens who invented us programmed some of us to do hard labor all our lives and enjoy it. I never disliked mining or logging or wood cutting, Even cowboy work was Ok except when I was expected to wash dishes after a hard day of branding or chopping weeds in Charlie’s corn field. There is a great feeling in doing the work you like to do.

        If anything comes from this it will make the bosses take much greater precaution in risking lives for structures, it ought to bring in better pay for wild land fire fighters due to the dangerous conditions and luck of the draw bosses, and wise people up to how lighten strikes are being allowed for no go reason to balloon into muti million dollar affairs that kills people. Maybe even they will start to look at the effects of so called inert retardant upon people, especially the elderly. Our government is neglecting the worker on the line and those willing to risk–they need to quit this turning of the head when their bosses err–especially where the errors kill.

        Reply

        • Charlie,

          After all of this time…I just got to ask this question. Have you run the numbers on how many people similar socioeconomic (I DO have a minor from a prestigious university…NAU in Flagstaff, I know it’s no Prescott College but still?) status (wealthier people DO live longer) and age group demographics (old people DO die, except for you that is, you are just like a Timex watch, you take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’)?

          I, as you all know by now…was an ELITE wildland firefighter AND a hotshot from the Mighty Coconino, which as you all know…was a hyper hotshot program on steroids and I WAS (just check out my I-Love-ME video…again please) the tip of the spear (or the head of the DILDO according to Fucked Up Fred and Iron Man Bob) on many a fierce fire and was doused with SLURRY that slick, slimy, goo that smells just like fresh cow manure more times than I care to remember.

          AND as Iron Man Bob has pointed out…my mangina does hurt because of smoke inhalation, but as far as I know, but as far as I know, but as far as I know, but as far as I know, but as far as I know…the slurry hasn’t bothered me one little bit. Now…I’m not sayin’ your wrong or anything…but?

          Reply

              • Don’t you think the stuff (there’s THAT word again) they put in retardant was MUCH worse back in MY day on the line…you know THE FIRE LINE (in the 70’s and 80’s).

                Back then they thought that Round Up was a good food additive. And Agent Orange was actually good for the Vietnamese and U.S. Airmen who delivered there daily doses.

                NOW…leave me alone…and quit disagreeing with me, you know how much I HATE that, I really gotta go, I am very late for an very important date. Alice is waiting for me now.

                Reply

                • Alice “let me drink my poison” Alice? Or kiss my grits Alice? Or he is back Poison welcome to my nightmare alice? You have a point to an extent… They have more epa laws that you can shake a stick but let’s talk the trade secret

                  Reply

          • Whoops, (I DO have a minor in SOCIOLOGY from a prestigious university…NAU in Flagstaff, I know it’s no Prescott College but still?)

            I picked sociology from a big thick book because it sounded easier than psychology (and I had to take some psych classes and boy was that a good call) to go with my Police Science degree (wait…isn’t take an oxymoron? I always thought CRIMINAL JUSTICE sounded sooooo much better,

            I mean, who were they tryin’ to kid…Police SCIENCE?) in keeping with me trying to be like flowing water and always seek the path of least resistance when it came to book learnin’. Now fighin’ fire was a diferent story…when it came to fighin’ wildfire I liked to do the equivalent of shave my head with a cheese grader and chew on tin foil…I wanted to be a hotshot (or a hotshit as the tanker slugs and helislacks called us so affectionately).

            And I don’t know why people have bitched there is so much extraneous bullshit on this thread that clutters important STUFF (what is stuff anyway? Have you ever noticed how much we use that word to describe everything? I guess it is better than sayin’ shit all of the time, words lose their meaning when we use them to much…don’t you think that is FUCKED up? Do you think we bloggers don’t have anything else better to do? OMG look at the time…gotta go.

            Reply

          • Gary I can bet that there are a few in the FS that would love to drop 50,000 gallons of that agent orange shit in your back yard now that you have some years on you. You could be another guinea pig. It has after all mostly affected only the elders here, although we have had a lot of breathing complaints from those in their 40’s and up. Zack Ashoor was the only 29 year old that died since the fire that was exposed–but he had a bad case of asthma.

            You will have a hell of a lush back yard–but watch out for your fish pond dwellers.

            Reply

            • Would you be considered a hero by allowing yourself to be a guinea pig for science? Only if you died I suppose.

              Reply

            • I bet there are a lot in the USFS who would like to drop something on me about now, just as long as it went…BOOM!

              Reply

          • True it is–you are full of good genes that make you resistant to bs and even bad chemicals. And I too have survived situations that have killed the weaker — old man and woman nature have a habit of weeding out the weaker–something humans have little control over, although it seems that science is working on the gene pool enough we will have super men and women in the future with maybe even longevity in the hundreds of years. The Yogi’s already claim they have. But for the miner fellows, most of the old co workers are either dead or wish they were from the Uranium doses they received–especially those that smoked. The smoke collected the uranium, radium and plutonium atoms. Especially the plutonium atom was like the risk taking fire boss–guaranteed to give you cancer and kill you in time–considered the most deadly poison on earth yet we sent plenty up into the atmosphere and plenty was spread about from such incidents as the Chernobyl explosion and other even satellites that exploded or burned when returning to earth. Plutonium batteries are forever and some of those things had as much as 17 pounds plutonium on board–yet it only takes one atom of that shit to start a cancer.

            Looking at things as they are–in the cancer department I have been a scientific experiment–as have so many other Uranium miners. I just had about half my nose removed a few weeks ago and this is another cancer among the more than 20 I have had removed, including one melanoma. Yet I have three siblings, all still alive who have had none–zip. My sisters are 15 and 4 years older than I and I have a brother I don’t claim but he is there–4 years younger. That may not be scientific proof of the foul effects of Uranium mining but we do know that at least one scientist was killed by a large dose of Uranium at Los Alamos while he was fucking around with building the Atom bomb and he had to separate two pieces of radioactive material with critical mass. Madam Curie the loved to mess with that shit also went down as did many Japanese after the bomb. Chernobyl people died by the hundreds and so on–with the fall out effects we do now see that despite a hundred years of cancer research and billions,

            So look at the deaths at Yarnell==and that is people not fish–I say retardant is dangerous at least for the elderly.

            Reply

  78. LEADERSIP; How it counts

    On a secret trip to Syria, Army Gen. Joseph Votel, the new commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East said Saturday he felt a moral obligation to enter a war zone to check on his troops and make his own assessment of progress.

    Army Gen. Joseph Votel “I have responsibility for this mission, and I have responsibility for the people that we put here. So it’s imperative for me to come and see what they’re dealing with — to share the risk they are dealing with.”

    Votel said he brought reporters with him because, “We don’t have anything to hide. I don’t want people guessing about what we’re doing here. The American people should have the right to see what we’re doing here.”

    Just imagine if Wildland Commanders thought like this!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Instead you get guys like Roy Hall who said he is gratified that an investigative report exonerated his command team.

    Reply

    • Mr.Turbyfill,

      Here is one you may enjoy by former Navy SEALS Jokko Willink and Leif Babbin titled ‘Extreme Ownership.’

      “As the SEAL task unit commander, the senior leader on the ground in charge of the mission, I was responsible for everything in Task Unit Bruiser. I had to take complete ownership of what went wrong. That is what a leader does—even if it means getting fired.”

      http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/10/20/read-excerpt-from-extreme-ownership.html

      The Roy Hall quote reminds me of when he was able to pick and choose who was to be on the Investigative Team looking into an escaped prescribed burn he was responsible for, that threatened the town of Cherry.

      Reply

      • RTS quoted:

        …snip ” the senior leader on the ground in charge of the mission, I was responsible for everything in Task Unit Bruiser. I had to take complete ownership of what went wrong. That is what a leader does—even if it means getting fired.”

        In light of you posting this quote yourself, I’m going to assume you support this position. So correct me if I’m wrong and that you posted it as an example of what you don’t believe in. Or correct me if I’m wrong and provide your own reason in your own words of your intentions with this quote.

        If you believe this, great. Now tell me who were the senior leader(s) on the ground at Yarnell Hill?

        Woodsman

        Reply

        • Ya little girlie man (Hans and Franz, SNL)…where is their, “Let’s see how many times WE fucked up” checklist? Or doesn’t management have one? Oh…that’s right…they don’t! They only have one for the grunts and ground pounders! Because they make up the FUCKIN’ RULES as they go along.

          Reply

          • Gary,

            ESAD! It’s hard,to believe that you are that much of a Bleeding Heart Liberal that believes those men are ‘victims’ and not responsible for their own actions, like all other grown ups.

            The Rules were established many years ago and they work every time. All one has to do is follow them.

            As stated during the Integration Phase of the October 2013 Site Visit, “This was the final, fatal link in a long chain of bad decisions with good outcomes, we saw this coming for years.”

            One HS Supt. stated that same month, “It wouldn’t have mattered how many safety briefings that Crew would gave gotten, the outcome would’ve been the same.”

            Reply

            • Most of those men lacked the life’s experiences to tell some one who was as worshiped as Marsh was (and just about any hotshot crew boss is) by the system they serve.

              And that goes for me as a hotshot as well…if my crew bosses said it was Easter…I started looking for Easter eggs…no questions asked. And I always assumed if they wanted me to know something…they would tell me and if they wanted any of my shit…they would squeeze my head. I was a Coconino Hotshot…end of story.

              And yes, I am now a bleeding heart liberal…a progressive if you will.

              When I look at the faces of our dead crew…I don’t see grown men. I see young men who never had a chance to find out our fire gods have feet of clay like I did.

              Reply

              • Most of those men lacked the life’s experiences to tell some one who was as worshiped as Marsh was (and just about any hotshot crew boss is) by the system they serve…”NO.”

                Reply

                • Agreed there Gary–In mining as well the helper was generally so green horn he had to totally depend upon his safety by his miner. Also anything than a good work ethic on his part and following instructions meant he was sent to the top where the bigger bosses would have to deal with him. He would likely be relegated to honey dipper status if he did not hack the miner’s helper job. I can see after hearing Donut’s testimony that it takes men of time experience in the wild land fire fighting profession to know what is going on and even know when they are setting themselves up for injury or death. As in mining, it might be a good idea to have a good boss if you want to stay alive. In the case of 17 men under Marsh and Steed I think 7 or so were well experienced and 7 at a minimum were of rookie status. Why the experienced ones did not refuse to go into the trap is a good question to ponder. We hear that Steed actually argued with Marsh about the drastic assignment, but perhaps the “strictly take order standard” took to his mind along with what are the consequences of disobeying an order in that chain of command. Some miner’s helpers wound up without a job or on the honey dipper detail for their subordination. And the higher up you are in the food chain the harsher the penalty can be from the guy above you. Those get to be some pretty high pay grades and influences that take much time to attain. :Perhaps in some cases much brown nosing as well. And that can all go to hell if someone refuses an order. On the other hand the upper echelon loves a yay sayer and it seems in the case of GMHS they were getting some great reviews for their eagerness to do work that other crews were wont to accept due to unnecessary risk. They were getting write ups for saving old trees in the Prescott paper–something other crews might have turned down due to risk. But someone running these fires are asking for jobs to be done–(e.g. structure protection) when it is obviously a ridiculous and dangerous request for men only equipped with the Pulaski and having to cross near a raging wild fire. I do believe mixing structure protection and wild land fire fighting shows that the well college educated bosses have failed in the needed experience of wild land fire fighting. It bears to common sense that if you are a wild land fire fighter and happen to be down town Glen Isla then grab a garden hose with the home owner and spray water–but only if you are handy–not two or three miles off where you have to trap yourself in manzanita to get to that garden hose–it might be melted after all when you get there, if you do get there alive and unscorched.

                  The higher up the ladder you go the more they see your ass and many become asses on the way up.

                  Reply

                  • Gary,

                    It’s rather disturbing to know that you were that much of a gullible and obsequious syncophant and did just as you were told without questioning it. And even worse, you continued to foster and encourage that type of delusion with your Easter Bunny method.

                    What bullshit!

                    We and almost all other Crews did NOT manage our Crews that way.

                    We didn’t lie to our Crews and actually encouraged them to speak up and be part of the solution.

                    As I have said before, we wanted Team Members and not ass kissing yes men known as Team Players.

                    Reply

        • Woodsman,

          It is what it is. I don’t have to justify anything to you. Those I contacted asked to remain anonymous. How about sticking to what you’re good at – being Gary Olson’s lap dog and kissing his big ass.

          Reply

          • RTS,

            No need to get upset. I was just avoiding the impression that I was telling you why you posted that quote. I was asking for you to tell me why so I wouldn’t be making any assumptions. I’m getting the distinct feeling that you’re not going to clear that up. OK.

            I wasn’t asking you to ‘name names.’ I was merely asking you who the senior leaders were on the ground at Yarnell Hill because I believe it has something to do with your quote you chose to post. For example, the senior leaders in your quote said they are responsible if things go wrong, and I agree. So the senior leaders at Yarnell Hill were? …Get it now? I’m going straight off of your quote you chose to provide.

            I’m good at all kinds of things. I surmise you are finding that out.

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • I saw what you did there.

              It’s The Great Divide.

              The problem has been eliminated.

              Nothing more to see here, move along.

              Reply

      • Fred
        I am confused, and its because I think that you might be? Trying to understand the paralells here.

        I watched the FOX interview and read the book excerpt. And from what I see and read is that ICMT should be under the Extreme Ownership, Pual Musser to Roy Hall.

        We all know what Fox was trying to say…………All Polictal here…………Clinton needs to take Extreme Ownership of Bengazi. Not the guys on the ground that died,
        ********They accepted the assignment just as GMHS did.************
        In this instance you and FOX is using the SEALS to say to their followers, ******Clinton owns Bengazi, and believe that Clinton bears the Responsability for their deaths.******

        >”It’s hard,to believe that you are that much of a Bleeding Heart Liberal that believes those men are ‘victims’ and not responsible for their own actions, like all other grown ups”<

        The Except the book spells out a paticular firefight that went bad and guys died because of the failures. But here Jockco takes full EXTREME OWNSHIP even when his men are taking on some of probably deserved RESPONSOBILTY during the after action briefing.

        Now this could be a complete Suck Up to his team as a Protection of my subornates. Clearly he was in bettter standing with his own superoirs and was willing to take the heat. This example seems to show that leadership should be protecting GMHS not blaming them.

        Paul Musser, Todd Able, Roy Hall have only shierked from their responsability and have been completly terified of Personal Cival Litigation, Maybe thats why they seem to look and feel so guilty?

        Not sure that is what you intended for us me to see here but that's what I got out of it.

        Reply

        • Mr. Turbyfill,

          I read the entire excerpt of “Extreme Ownership” that Fred posted as well. I was surprised when I read it because the premise is in contradiction of what he has been purporting all along. The excerpt says that a battlefield commander took full responsibility of everything that happened in a fire fight.

          From the book that was quoted:

          ““You know whose fault this is? You know who gets all the blame for this?” The entire group sat there in silence. I took a deep breath and said, “There is only one person to blame for this: me. I am the commander. I am responsible for the entire operation. As the senior man, I am responsible for every action that takes place on the battlefield. There is no one to blame but me. And I will tell you this right now: I will make sure that nothing like this ever happens to us again.”

          It was a heavy burden to bear. But it was absolutely true. I was the leader. I was in charge and I was responsible. Thus, I had to take ownership of everything that went wrong. Despite the tremendous blow to my reputation and to my ego, it was the right thing to do—the only thing to do. I apologized to the wounded SEAL, explaining that it was my fault he was wounded and that we were all lucky he wasn’t dead. We then proceeded to go through the entire operation, piece by piece, identifying everything that happened and what we could do going forward to prevent it from happening again.

          Looking back, it is clear that, despite what happened, the full ownership I took of the situation actually increased the trust my commanding officer and master chief had in me. If I had tried to pass the blame on to others, I suspect I would have been fired— deservedly so. The SEALs in the troop, who did not expect me to take the blame, respected the fact that I had taken full responsibility for everything that had happened. They knew it was a dynamic situation caused by a multitude of factors, but I owned them all.”

          So the way I see it, Fred believes Roy Hall is fully responsible for everything that happened at Yarnell Hill on Sunday June 30, 2013. In addition to that, I was surprised at the numerous quotes of military content as leadership examples from someone who has determined that the military experience of 3 GM crew members (including 1 leader) may have been a causal factor in them killing themselves that day by blindly following orders. Should we learn from the military and incorporate principles into wildland training or not? I’m confused.

          I was looking forward to knowing whether Fred has changed his mind on who share’s responsibility for the death of GM. The excerpt implicates Hall, Abel, Musser, Cordes, Willis, Carothers, Marsh, (from DIVS to Group to OPS to the IC) as having responsibility of the outcome of the mission since they could all be considered ‘battlefield commanders’ at Yarnell Hill. They are responsible regardless of the effect on their career or reputation.

          We have witnessed the opposite of Extreme Ownership by battlefield commanders at Yarnell Hill, unfortunately.

          Woodsman

          Reply

        • Mr. Turbyfill,

          I think Woodsman makes the point I intended.

          Each one of the YH Fire supervisors from the most basic Engine/Crew level on up to the IC was responsible and liable for their respective decisions and outcomes.

          This also goes for the AZ Forestry and those involved with the alleged SAIT.

          Reply

    • Indeed, one of the first people you would interview in a tragic death event would be the dispacher, yet Crystal, dispacher at the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy has never been contacted. What gives? She says she can fill in many of the blanks. And there are many–just look at the FOIA reports that Joy has received. There are so many black outs, including full pages of black outs that we have no wonder there was also a purported black out of 30 minutes of communications between the GMHS and everyone else.

      We were talking to Ted this morning–I advised him that from the Ranch House Café you can easily see the two track including a long stretch where the GMHS had Assembled right near the sharp angle the two track goes to the top of the Weaver Range. You could with the naked eye have easily seen 18 yellow jacked men from that vantage point without binoculars. I am certain bosses or others had watched them drop off from that point right from the Ranch House parking lot–some bosses had eaten burgers there, a fact verified by the previous owners of the café. You can also see the prominent roof tops of the Boulder Springs Ranch–so when Ted mentioned no lookouts, I said there were plenty–probably five or six from the Ranch House Café. Well he said we don’t know that for sure, then I said well right they might have been inside having coffee and donuts. I got corrected–that’s cops, not fire fighters.

      So we do welcome Crystal’s input and I do hope she talks to John Dougherty for a proper interview.

      It is indeed as David says–we do need media involved. We do know that attempts were mande by authorities to keep Michael Chen of Arizona Republic away from the Dolce Fire. He went in anyway and they resented that greatly. The media was kept out of Yarnell during evacuation as well–where in Arizona do we have the right to deny the first amendment right of the press. As Woodsman and David point out these people help keep these operations honest and are spokesmen for the public. They are willing to risk it all by going into war zones so we know what is going on–how much more do they have the right to go into a civilian operation then to see how things are going. Risk is part of their job just as a fireman or cop must risk at his job-yet their risk taking can reveal situations that need correcting–even situations that once corrected will save lives.

      Reply

      • I would bet there were people watching out for the GMH from the ranch house also. I see one person dressed in yellow above the ranch house parking lot in the Russ Reason video. Cant tell what they are doing though.

        Reply

      • Seen in the video captured at 4:05 PM, at the observation spot on Hiway 89, looking southwest toward “the ridge”, from left to right:

        Paul Musser’s blue truck

        Yavapai County Fire Department Battalion Chief Cougan Carothers

        Safety Officer (with the GM intracrew frequency on his radio which he had previously cloned off of Darrell Willis’ radio) Tony Sciacca.

        Structure Protection Group Supervisor Yavapai County Fire Department Battalion Chief Gary Cordes in his truck (who later ordered his Strike Team Leader Trainee to send “a couple of engines to Boulder Springs Ranch” to pick up Granite Mountain)

        And, most likely (since they were having their meeting there), Field OPS Paul Musser sitting next to Gary Cordes in Gary’s truck.

        But, of course, nobody knew what was happening. Nope, not at all.

        Reply

        • Thank you so much, WTKTT, for setting me straight on the damn trucks and the exact timing of the video capture.

          I woke up from a blood sugar crash to this conversation, and I’m now falling back asleep, so I’m not going to go hunt through JD’s vast and poorly mapped-out dropbox to try to find the video link. I’ll do it in the morning, unless WTKTT bails me out on this one, also.

          Reply

        • Well, I have to throw this in before I go back to bed, since probably not everybody reading here has followed the long and winding trail of conversations related to the discovery of the “Hail Mary Plan” which took FOREVER to discover.

          Because CONTEXT MATTERS, as it relates to the video.

          This video is captured about 15 minutes or so after Structure Group Supervisor CYFD Battalion Chief Gary Cordes ordered Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to (after obtaining the ATV he obtained from the Yarnell Fire Department) go into Glen Ilah and (with one other) “scout a possible dozer line” (my quotes are probably not exact because I’m doing this off the top of my head) from, apparently, approximately where the dozer was staged through a wash toward the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch.

          So, Gary Cordes most likely had this inside his head as he was sitting there in his truck, mostly likely right next to Field OPS Paul Musser (who had previously asked, about 20 minutes or so earlier, if — according to his ADOSH interview, at least — if GMHS were “available” and they had — according to the same interview — said they were still “committed to the ridge”).

          OK. I’m REALLY going back to bed now.

          Reply

  79. Abrasive!!!!!!! I am!!!!!! I don’t feel that I start out with the intention of being that but when my questions are skirted, evaded, and then not answered with any intelligent thought or knowledge. Most of the time when I ask a question, I already have the answer or close to it, I tend to study up on before I go into a situation that I am not familiar with.
    It does not come as a shock to me that some of the families feel or think that I am ABRASIVE or that their attorney would convey that in an email.
    I have always just wanted the full truth about GMHS deaths to come out. I was in a different place than they, I have been vocal on all of it, the autopsies, fire shelters, my Facebook Page, Interviews, communications, incident command short comings, the very way they fight wildfire. I question everything, and when I hear you lie to me and yourself I am not going to show a lot of grace.

    Reply

    • Reply to David Turbyfill post on May 21, 2016 at 7:13 pm

      >> David Turbyfill said…
      >>
      >> I have always just wanted the full truth about GMHS deaths to come out.
      >> I was in a different place than they,

      Even in your grief… and from day one… you KNEW that unless the FULL STORY is told and evaluated in a PROPER way… it could EASILY happen again.

      There are still OTHER LIVES at RISK.

      That’s what most/all of the ‘other’ families members still ‘don’t get’.

      Carry on ( we certainly will ).

      Reply

    • David is indeed entitled to be abrasive–the folly of keeping the truth from the loved ones can only be addressed in a confrontational manner. It is obvious reputations are being protected at the expense of the truth. I would want to know the answers in a demanding way were my son on that fire and I would want every damned redaction fully exposed so I could decide whether it were valid information or not. We citizens are at least as intelligent as those that ran this fire and likely in some cases quite a bit more when it concerns respecting safety of our loved ones. I do see that this investigation from the start should have been done by an independent agency–not by the system itself that has its agenda to remain intact and esteemed at all costs.

      Reply

      • Dear Forestry and State and all not yet named publicly,

        We all make mistakes…but we all do not cover up our mistakes…we actually learn from them. Why do you stick by the sair?
        When information has since came public.
        Do you believe time will go by and things will calm down? Maybe just maybe certain information will never be known but some day certain folks will know just how life unfolds…
        Okay go back to your golf game.

        Reply

      • Abrasive…if one of those 19 would have been my son…and that includes Marsh and Steed I would already be in county.

        Well…maybe I would have been released by now but I would still be wearing an ankle bracelet. Not the Big House…just county.

        I can’t believe how many families of SHEEP there were among our crew!

        Reply

    • The ironic thing regarding the families (the 12 families who filed) lawsuit, was that the stated goal was NOT to be about money, but instead, finding out the truth about what actually happened.

      End the end, it just turned-out to be about ‘some’ money, along with some lame requirements, one of which, allowed ADF to buy a new fire truck and add a couple of employees.

      The settlement scuttled the only remaining avenue to compel the truth to surface via depositions, when finding-out that ‘truth’ was the only stated reason to initially proceed in the first place. Hence, the irony.

      Reply

  80. Quick comment between doing one thing and needing to do another, after reading all the recent comments and the ones on JD’s article.

    Disclosure. I’m a complete nobody. I knew nothing about wildland firefighting before any of this. I was a Prescott College student when the Prescott Hotshot Crew was emerging. And, then, as a digital photographer, I wandered into this when I saw that camera in the middle of the deployment site. When, apparently, nobody else did.

    And then, since I had the software to create a digital imagery database, I started analyzing and comparing the digital imagery coming forth in spades in 2014. And that has led me further and further. I’m not as good as WTKTT, but I’ve given my bestest (while constantly wanting and needing to “retire”). My mom died a year ago while I was in the middle of this. And I’ve experienced my share of “confirmation bias.”

    I’ve been thinking today about how to write something of a “bridge” comment that might help Claire Caldwell be not so afraid of us.

    I get her pain.

    And here’s the deal. The problem is systemic. It’s not that Eric Marsh was a bad guy. He may have been sloppy (even Gary has expressed his similarity with Eric). But, imho, overly focusing on him (while noting him is necessary) isn’t going to fix the problem.

    The problem, as I see it, was that the drift into Structural Fire Departments setting up “wildland fire” teams to deal with wildfires in the Wildland Urban Interface has, over the years, been leading to a mix of thinking that is putting wildland fire-fighters at significant risk (it isn’t the structural firefighters that are getting burned over and dying on WUI wildfires).

    And that “drift” has led to several outcomes which need to be critically examined.

    One that has been mentioned here is that Structural firefighters (Battalion Chiefs etc) are increasingly serving on Incident Command Teams. There’s some evidence that that played a part on the Yarnell Fire, and possibly also the Twisp Fire. It was a Battalion Chief who, apparently dreamed up the last ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line on the Yarnell Fire that included the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Was he doing that in conversation with Eric? Who knows? Was he doing that in conversation with OPS Musser? Who knows? But I”m guessing affirmative, all things considered. And a Battalion Chief was involved in the Twisp River Fire.

    Another is that Wildland Firefighters are, increasingly, prioritizing saving structures over doing what has been, traditionally, wildland firefighting. They’re increasingly going where they shouldn’t be going to do things they shouldn’t be doing. That seems to have been the case regarding the Esperanza Fire, the Yarnell Fire, the Twisp River Fire and the Valley Fire (where nobody got killed but they came extremely close).

    Evidence suggests Eric was under extreme pressure to justify the existence of the GMHS in the face of Prescott City Powers That Be that were constantly trying to pull the funding rug out from under them. And they had two highly publicized successes right before Yarnell saving structures. On the Thompson Ridge Fire and the Doce Fire. I’m not justifying Eric’s over-playing things, I’m just illustrating some of the overall dynamics that may have been going inside of his head.

    And I’m saying that the real problem isn’t the Erics, it’s the system that is creating and maintaining the Eric’s, and pushing those crews into doing “whatever it takes,” for whatever reasons, to protect structures in the WUI, and then putting them in danger doing things they shouldn’t be doing in places they shouldn’t even be, and then, because of this paradigm, white-washing the reports about what happens to them and how what happened happened.

    I totally agree with those who are wondering about how to re-structure the investigation system. If NTSB can conduct relatively honest investigations, why can’t that happen regarding wildland firefighting fatalities and such?

    OK it’s Saturday night and I’m getting more and more brain-dead, but I”ve been thinking about this all day (actually for a couple of days) and I decided to try putting this in words.

    PS, After all the various convos, I still think WTKTT’s theory about “Waz yo status” makes the most sense. Even if it’s still a wild-card.

    Oh, and also, to Bob Powers, who I totally respect. Why, do you think, is it that, if the whole thing boils down simply to the fact that the GMHS simply broke the 10 and 18 (which is completely true) did the “investigation” lock up everything regarding the Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan into a filing cabinet that took us two and a half years to break into?

    Namaste.

    Reply

    • It is and has always been for the past 10 years the responsibility of the Investigation Team to not in any way show any information that could be used for Law suits pure and simple.
      They no longer find guilt or identify the real cause of the Fatalities.
      IT JUST AINT LIKE IT USE TO BE.

      On vacation in Calif. just got on here to day not many connections to access the computer in the High Sierra’s.

      Reply

      • So…according to you the USFS has been fucked up six ways from Sunday for at least 10 years now. Let’s Make America Great Again by getting a new U.S. Forest Service!

        Reply

  81. JD what a Feckless article, am disappointed on this one. How can you give these guys such level of Standing? This is probably one of the only good things that I can see about Mike “Doolittle” Dudley, the fact that he kept this information, that was not germane to the YHF investigation, somewhat at arm’s length. These emails are Highly Biased and are not filled with “FACTS”. Your article doesn’t contain any verification for the Dave Provencio, its only his first person, one sided statements. Did you contact the other Hotshot sup’s? what about the ICMT on the Horseshoe 2 fire?
    I will grant to all that the overall beliefs by David Provencio could be true and accurate. But this in itself doesn’t mean that Eric and GMHC acted overzealous on the YHF.

     From IM article******* “These (Granite Mountain Hotshot) guys really messed up and paid for it with their lives,” retired Payson Hotshot Superintendent Fred Schoeffler wrote Dudley in a July 27, 2013, email.
    In his email, Schoeffler told Dudley that he had talked with the senior Yarnell Hill fire commanders and had been to the fatality site located at the base of the Weaver Mountains west of the small retirement community of Yarnell.
    “This was absolutely a tragedy, no doubt – however it was one that was clearly avoidable,” Schoeffler writes. “I come to no other conclusion that (the deaths were caused by) Human Factors and human error on all this…but it’s hard to make heroes out of those who messed up fatally.”
    ********************
    One thing is for sure, Fucked up Fred is consistent. Fred must be the smartest Wildland fire guy that has walked the line, how he did not end up running the whole show is a mystery to me.
    How is it possible that he (Fred) could get access to the YH ICMT and others such as Frisby? And had the answers to the entire incident by July 27th 2013 and the SAIT Team barely had their pants on.

    Reply

    • Dave I am truly sorry but I could as well give you 20 or more Retired Hot Shots that would support what these HS said. Including 5 Current HS Superintendents in Idaho I have talked to.
      Marsh had a very well known record and it was not good.

      Fred is a instructor with in the Fire Organization and a retired FS Employee that is still active as a Safety Officer that is how he has access.

      To call him Fucked up Shows you Ignorance you should sit down and talk to him with a open mind. He has trained wildland fire fighters for many years and knew Marsh Personally.

      Reply

        • Hot Shot Superintendents on the Crews Currently in R4 BLM and FS.

          Retired. Jim Stumpf, Jim Freacus, Chet Cash, Mike Paul, Rod Wrench, Ray Gordadio, Cloe Johnson, Bill Williams, Randy Doman,, Gary Helsel, Dale Jarrell, Charley Caldwell, Miron Lee, Larry Boggs, Claud Marsh. Me and Fred and several others in R3. as starters I would have to go to my Email list to add more You get the point????

          I have talked to many others who are of the Same option No one has said otherwise. FS, BLM, State all say Marsh failed to follow the 10 and 18 and he killed his crew.
          You or any one else can not change that fact and Knowing Mcklean he will lay out the 10 and 18 as well.

          Reply

      • Bob, my “Ignorance” yes Fucked up Fred will have a lot of work to do to get me to see it his way. and will get little to no respect from myself.

        Why might you ask? Anyone who can make a couple of calls and in not time at all comes to the conclusions he did, is IGNORANT. Also isn’t he the IGNORANT one that 6-8 months back after seeing the autopsies come to the conclusion that GMHS were drunk and/or drinking on the job. No I dont think I will be sitting down with someone like him. If he trains like he thinks and speaks the heaven help those who must endure him.

        Also was’nt it just a couple weeks back that JD of IM published a article that Ted P. has been told by UNNAMED sources that GMHS was ordered off the ridge line, of course that would mean that all of you that have been decrying the 10-18 out of place. No this article suit you and other just fine, and of course reinforces your points.

        Bob just because you can bring me all the retired and current Shot Superintendents that would all be in agreement, I have been very aware that is how other wildland firefighters think, but this only show me of ignorance on all of your parts. Since all of the Wildland has this incident nailed down to that it was Eric and GMHS own decision and misjudgements then why in the hell are guys like you still trying to figure out what happen. why does it huant their thoughts, their sleep,

        I David Turbyfill do NOT come to this or any other forrum looking for your simpathy, Am I hurting over the loss of my son and the rest of the crew. HELL FUCKING YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        IGNORANCE, yes there is plenty around. Looking and asking for changes in the current envoirment of an entrenched “CULTURE” that is with in the wildland firefighting system show of more Ignorance, than those of us that want to see change.

        Reply

        • Mr. Turbyfill,

          Thank you for your posts and brave stances. I have been away on fires these past several weeks and plagued by either no internet service or just a cell phone.

          You posted: “One thing is for sure, Fucked up Fred is consistent. Fred must be the smartest Wildland fire guy that has walked the line, how he did not end up running the whole show is a mystery to me.”

          Notwithstanding the off-hand comment and your low opinion and uncertain approval of me, I do not claim to be the smartest WFF that has walked the line. Nor am I the dumbest. I am not a ‘Team Player’ and therefore, do not work for an IMT because I do NOT subscribe to their “Go Along To Get Along” attitude.

          You also posted: “How is it possible that he (Fred) could get access to the YH ICMT and others such as Frisby? And had the answers to the entire incident by July 27th 2013 and the SAIT Team barely had their pants on.”

          It’s called the ‘WFF Network’ and there is nothing like it in the world. I did not and do not have “the answers to the entire [YHF] incident.”

          I have SOME answers. And I’m always working on more.

          Because I do not trust the ‘Investigative Process’ since the 1985 Butte Fire or the 1990 Dude Fire, I do my own investigations and interviews, and I get it around 80% accurate.

          I also base it on the entrenched Investigative Process of ‘first establish a conclusion and then find the “facts” to fit the pre-established conclusion.’ This was what I heard from the alleged Human Factors ‘expert’ during the 1996 Hochdeffer Fire Shelter Investigation, Human Factors briefing.

          It was my ongoing FOIA Requests for Fire Shelter Investigations, Fatality Fires, and the like that allowed the Wildland LLC to get its ‘Incident Reviews Database section on those subjects started, after 2002, when I brought boxes of files containing the above to Paula Nasiatka, the former LLC Center Manager.

          I have only some of the answers and work on others on a regular basis. We find out details about fatality and near-fatality fires YEARS later.

          You posted: “… yes Fucked up Fred will have a lot of work to do to get me to see it his way. and will get little to no respect from myself.”

          I am not asking you to see it my way, only that you accept it for what it is (or may be), another person’s investigative work, based on the following:

          Reasonable/Probable Conclusions, Deductions, and Inferences; Personal and Professional Experiences and Opinions; WFF Anecdotes’ Public Sources; Inductive and In Logic; Suggestive Evidence; and AZ Rule 803. Hearsay Exceptions re: the GMHS Crew Net “discussing out options” radio transmissions.

          You also posted: “Why might you ask? Anyone who can make a couple of calls and in not time at all comes to the conclusions he did, is IGNORANT.”

          Nope, not ignorant. This has been ongoing since 2009. I can name the eight (8) fires and details these occurred on if you’d like.

          You posted: “Also isn’t he the IGNORANT one that 6-8 months back after seeing the autopsies come to the conclusion that GMHS were drunk and/or drinking on the job.”

          Nope, not ignorant. As far as I recall, I made NO such claims about the GMHS being “drunk” or “drinking on the job.”

          Notwithstanding the questionable, “decomposition” argument, the toxicology reports clearly speak for themselves. Please refer back to whatever IM Chapter those are included and the discussions therein.

          You also posted: “No I dont think I will be sitting down with someone like him. If he trains like he thinks and speaks the heaven help those who must endure him.”

          It’s too bad you already have your mind made up. I disagree with a few of the things you have posted, yet I would be honored to sit down with you and talk. Because WFF is a quasi-military endeavor, I trained following the various military (mostly Special Forces), mountaineering, avalanche incidents, leadership and followership methods. These were very successful and those I trained and many others continue to utilize them.

          And I learned the value of memorizing, understanding, and following the WFF Rules and recognizing and mitigating the Watch Out Situations. They work every time!

          You posted: “Also was’nt it just a couple weeks back that JD of IM published a article that Ted P. has been told by UNNAMED sources that GMHS was ordered off the ridge line, of course that would mean that all of you that have been decrying the 10-18 out of place. No this article suit you and other just fine, and of course reinforces your points.”

          Myself and other WFF supervisors and WFF’s have been “ordered” off ridgelines, out of Safety Zones, down into potential death traps, and the like countless times. And our responses were NO with an option based on the ‘How To Properly Refuse Risk,’ formerly known as the ‘Turn Down Protocol.’ And then there was the June 20, 2013 YH Fire where the GMHS overhead and Crewmembers had a choice to also refuse the assignment!
          There are numerous other Human Factors elements involved here.

          You posted: “… Bob just because you can bring me all the retired and current Shot Superintendents that would all be in agreement, I have been very aware that is how other wildland firefighters think, but this only show me of ignorance on all of your parts. Since all of the Wildland has this incident nailed down to that it was Eric and GMHS own decision and misjudgements then why in the hell are guys like you still trying to figure out what happen. why does it huant their thoughts, their sleep,”

          We are all in agreement because the WFF Rules work, every time. All you have to do is apply them. All fires where the WFF Rules are applied faithfully are fires where there are NO fire shelter deployments and NO fatalities from fires. The environmental issues, e.g. hazard trees, lightning, rocks, etc. are a different story.

          It still haunts my thoughts and sleep because I wished I would have and could have and should have done more than the few times of peer pressure talking to Marsh. It was not my responsibility because I was not his supervisor. That is where the responsibility lies.

          I too am hurting at the loss of all these men, some were friends. It is similar to the losses from the 1994 South Canyon Fire where nobody wanted to talk about their “friends” and how they died because of the Human Factors. We MUST talk about Human Factors, the causes and sometimes symptoms, of what leads people to their deaths, in spite of whatever else we want to believe. The fire and/or environmental factors ultimately are responsible for their injuries or death, however, it is Human Factors that gets them into their predicaments.

          You also posted: “IGNORANCE, yes there is plenty around. Looking and asking for changes in the current envoirment of an entrenched “CULTURE” that is with in the wildland firefighting system show of more Ignorance, than those of us that want to see change.”

          I am mostly with you on this one. There are a lot more really smart WFF Supervisors and WFF’s out there than ignorant ones. Tens of thousands of WFF supervisors and WFF’s use the WFF Rules successfully on wildfires every single fire season.

          Reply

          • RTS,

            Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response to Mr. Turbyfill, unfortunately much of it was WRONG.

            But there is one particular and important aspect that I do think you are right on. And that is that the many of the crew were drinking right up until the moment they reported for duty to go to the fire. And I also believe that at least some of them were drinking beyond that.

            Conspicuous and extensive alcohol consumption plays a very big role in the WF culture in general and the hotshot culture in particular. And I think from everything I have heard over the past 3 years the GMIHC were on the upper end of this spectrum as party animals.

            In fact, I keep hearing that is the only reason Mr. McDonough is still alive, he was the one who was the most fucked up that morning and so he was given the lookout assignment to put him where he could do the least damage.

            Which really adds a whole new level of irony to this entire event, the lone survivor who was such a fuck up I now understand there has been a book written about just how fucked up and what a loser he was. No wonder he almost ate his gun. He knows the only reason why he is alive.

            The fact the crew was drunk when they went to that fire and many of them were drunk on that fire is not a reflection on those individual crewman, it is a reflection on those who are responsible for pulling a hotshot crew back to go to a fire only hours after releasing them at late night, and on a SATURDAY night to boot and after they had just been on a couple of fires and working for some time without a day off…of course they went to get drunk and debrief about the fires they had been on to talk about the last fire, the next fire, or some other fire. That is what hotshots do.

            But other than that, I even find your reference to the navy seals as a backhanded slap at Marsh and Steed while you once again blame the crew and only blame the crew.

            You continually make the mistake of judging the GMIHC by federal hotshot crew standards because those are the only standards that you know. And yes, I know that in theory the crew should also have met those same standards but they didn’t and they never did. I am not going to go into all of the key differences here in this post between GMIHC and almost every other crew out there with the possible exception of the Ironwood Hotshots, even the state hotshot crews.

            If you think of the GMIHC as the Type I or even Type 1A hand crew of the Prescott Fire Department everything that happened makes sense. You just keep thinking of the crew compared to hotshot crews who were not Type 1A crews for a small town municipal fire department…that made everything about them different and very unique.

            And that is why they died. That is what I said almost three years ago and it is what I am saying now. Analyze their human factors from the perspective of the human factors that were THEIR human factors, and I think you will be doing something constructive other than blaming the crew for their own deaths.

            At some point, you and Bob are just going to have to accept reality. Maybe it won’t be until my much anticipated and highly acclaimed book comes out, but there were lots of people who had shared responsibility for the deaths of the crew and high on that list are your buddies…the IMT.

            You know anybody can present the results (case report) of a criminal investigation to a prosecutor for prosecution…it doesn’t even have to be an investigator. Maybe I should be working on one to indict at least some of the IMT for manslaughter just like I would for Marsh and Steed if they would have survived. I think that is where this investigation will end up eventually…or as soon at they…whoever the fuck they are…start telling the truth.

            Reply

            • Oh…and one more thing. I agree with Mr. Turbyfill, your nickname should be “Fucked Up Fred.” I know you are…but what am I?

              You have been playin’ stinky finger WAY too long with those assholes who make up your little Glee Club for washed up has-been and never-should-have-beens.

              I was right about you a long time ago. “Fuck me silly and call me Sally; we have one inside the wire!”

              An APOLOGIST for “them.”

              Reply

              • Dave If you do not understand why I am still here and asking questions then you have not been following all I have said.

                My Dad Robert Powers Died on the Rattle Snake Fire July 9, 1953. Him and the crew boss decided not to post a Look Out that could see the main Fire. He was the Assistant District Ranger and as much as it hurts me to say he holds the blame for the death of himself and 14 others. They had no Radio as well. Two of the 10 Standard orders are attributed to the Rattle snake fire. They became part of the 1957 Safety Rules.

                Your sons and the Crews memorial was July 9th it just hit home with me and that is why I have Been Here for the Past 3 years.

                I understand you grief and your frustration. Some of the Supervisors hold responsibility and should Have been accountable.

                That still dose not eliminate the Accountability of Marsh and Steed. They had all the tools right there to keep the crew safe and failed to do so. They took a high risk move pure and simple. and the fire beat them to the bottom of the Canyon they went down.
                The crew could have stayed right there in the black and gone home that night. That is the bottom line.

                Reply

            • What Gary says about the drinking part makes sense–There was nothing better than a cold picture of beer chilled to just where ice particles would begin to float in the mix. That could only be found at the Silver Spur in Gallup where all the miners would hang out after a long day when I worked in the rat hole Uranium mine for United Nuclear at Chruch Rock. The Church Rock Uranium mine was 7 miles out of Gallup, NM. The miners were there at the Silver Spur to discuss the situation and happenings of the day–a period of decompression as Gary defines it. There was no drinking on the job–you needed your wits–but if you did a double shift your capabilities were diminished–mining was like war–taxing to the body and mind. Dreaded was any overtime–and mostly you would regret it even though it paid time and a half and you should have been making enough that overtime would likely be lost in taxes.

              The mistake is to take men that have expended themselves as GMHS had, then put them into a dangerous situation right during their R&R period and expect them to preform to par. I personally can not see that the drinking had much to do with this although fatigue certainly had much to do with it. Hangovers could not have helped and added to the fatigue factor. Judgements are certainly diminished in these conditions. One thing basic training did was to wear the men down to a frazzel–and in that condition it is harder to resist orders and easier to accept ideas–any kind and even stupid ones. Of course military demands strict compliance and you damn sure had some dummies as leaders there–you hoped a 90 day wonder did not fuck up you life. You preferred instead some old soldier that had been to war enough to lead you through the thing.

              I think dropping off in that trap was an order and would have made no difference what your alcohol level was–some had none. You were fucked either way–bad orders from bad managers coming down the chain of command. Calvin mentioned someone looking up toward the two track from the Ranch House Cafe video–do you have the time Calvin? I think headquarters was looking that way seeing if orders were being followed and noting that the fire off to the right was moving–did these men thing the GMHS could make it to do structure protection? I think they did at first, but then they sent out a hurry up order when noting that the fire was whipping around faster than they anticipated.

              The fact that someone believed that GMHS would make a garden hose worth of difference at Glen Isla had to be maybe a boss or bosses diminished somehow. Crazy thinking is all I yet can come up with. Go with a wild land fire fighter to that point where they dropped off and he will agree–yet to meet one that did not.

              Reply

      • Bob said: “Dave I am truly sorry but I could as well give you 20 or more Retired Hot Shots that would support what these HS said. Including 5 Current HS Superintendents in Idaho I have talked to.”

        MY REPLY:
        2015 Wildland Convention at Bucky’s has some in the casino area of Bucky’s talking to Sonny and let me share I felt it was like listening to high school where grown men said much like David P. and Fred and I did not see any “action-documented” areas that can be fact-checked/used in a court of law just peoples’ perceptions so I agree with Claire and David Turbyfill until we have areas that can be used in a court of law on actual areas that were a concern on prior fires…you see people can have agendas/angles/vendettas/etc so I myself listen and read and hear firefighters talk but I won’t listen to perceptions unless they can show the vulnerability and transparency of their own life and history of firefighting because sometimes when someone points the finger it means what…imagine the visual of a hand pointing—only one finger aimed at the one you speak about and point out but how many fingers point back right back to the one pointing—usually three so I take information and dissect it and really look at it but if it don’t fit I shelve it until I can see how and where the information fits- is it a person trying to lay blame on the men solely or is there a bigger thing here that these men made prior bad decisions but just SAYING it without bringing up where and how and dates and such since the men are dead to defend themselves and what if Marsh and David P. just did not have any sort of connection professionally or personally and I look at all areas-

        Reply

      • Bob:

        I just have to quote your entire post because it’s all germane to my question.

        You said:

        ”

        Dave I am truly sorry but I could as well give you 20 or more Retired Hot Shots that would support what these HS said. Including 5 Current HS Superintendents in Idaho I have talked to.
        Marsh had a very well known record and it was not good.

        Fred is a instructor with in the Fire Organization and a retired FS Employee that is still active as a Safety Officer that is how he has access.

        To call him Fucked up Shows you Ignorance you should sit down and talk to him with a open mind. He has trained wildland fire fighters for many years and knew Marsh Personally.”

        My question:

        If all of this is true, what did they DO about it? Did any of these upwards of 25 experienced wildland firefighters DO ANYTHING about it? If so, what did they do? How was it handled by management if any of them did choose to do anything about it?

        Woodsman

        Reply

        • Some Tried internally by talking directly to Marsh.

          To my knowledge none went to direct supervisors.

          Most Supes do not go to the overhead and talk about other Supes. they end up being called whiners or attempting to destroy reputations.

          If they can not get some one like Marsh to listen then they move on and mentally mark him as some one to avoid.

          It is silent rule in the Shot world. seen it before with other crews in Calif. they were marked by Supes as problem crews that would not take advice and left on their own.

          Had a Superintendent on the Sawtooth Hotshots that had the problem was hired and fired in 6 months. That happened because the Assistant and 2 Crew Bosses went to the Forest FMO. He followed up and did some checking and the Superintendent was removed right in the middle of fire season.

          In some cases it is hard to get to that point with a crew and it dose not happen often so their is no set rule of how to deal with it if fire supervisors do not.

          I refer again to Marsh being fired and the whole HS crew being disbanded how did he get hired in Prescott as a supervisor?

          Marsh had what I would call a serious notation in his last evaluation that indicated something more than was being said by Willis.

          The ticking time bomb continued Bad decisions with good out comes
          until Yarnell.

          Reply

  82. From…
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/#comment-336207

    Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 20, 2016 at 9:26 am

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> John did you ask for everything pertaining to yarnell because
    >> we already know David turbyfill asked to be a.part in question n answer
    >> and I never saw that in link but we know by his testimony

    David Turbyfill is the FATHER of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.

    Mr. David Turbyfill himself recently posted over in Chapter XX ( 20 ) of this ongoing Yarnell Hill Fire discussion that he was NOT allowed to attend the same settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day that the other Family Members who were part of Patrick McGroder’s ‘consolidated wrongful death’ lawsuits were allowed to attend.

    But Mr. David Turbyfill WAS allowed to attend the equivalent settlement-mandated ‘Family Members (Beta) Staff Ride’ that was held the first week of April, 2016.

    From the following post from David Turbyfill…
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-334317

    —————————————————————————-
    >> WantsToKnowTheTruth asked Mr. David Turbyfill…
    >>
    >> I was just wondering if YOU, yourself, had the opportunity to
    >> particpate in the settlement-mandated “Question and Answer Day”?

    David Turbyfill responded…

    In short, no I was not at the Q&A day.

    Longer version; I had been in to a private meeting last summer with Jeff Whittney and also met with Joy Hernbrode, expressed my desire to attend said Q&A meetting, they said they thought it might ok but needed to run it by the Attorneys, Ultimately the Plaintiff Attorneys didn’t want any one that was not part of their case to participate, according to Joy Hernbrode.
    —————————————————————————-

    Recently released emails now CONFIRM that’s the way it went down.

    But it was more than just because attorney Patrick McGroder didn’t want any Family Member who wasn’t a ‘client’ of his to attend.

    It was because THEY ( and some of the family members they represented? ) specifically thought Mr. David Turbyfill was (quote) “abrasive” and that it would be (quote) “counterproductive” for him to be allowed to attend a meeting where he would actually be allowed to ask questions about the death of his son.

    Here is the email exchange itself which ‘shut down’ Mr. Turbyfill’s request to attend the official Question and Answer session…

    ** THE NAMES…

    David Turbyfill – The FATHER of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.

    Jeff Whitney – Arizona State Forester. He replaced Scott Hunt, who was the Arizona State Forester in June, 2013, when the Yarnell Hill Fire took place.

    Joy Hernbode – A lawyer, and Arizona State Forestry Division’s Deputy Director for Administrative Services.

    Patrick J. McGroder – Prescott Attorney that handled ONLY the 12 consolidated Granite Mountain Family Members’ ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that were ‘settled’ out of court in an agreement with Arizona Forestry.

    Shannon L. Clark – An attorney with the firm “Gallagher & Kennedy” in Phoenix who was working with attorney Patrick McGroder and helping to set up the settlement-mandated Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Question and Answer’ day.

    ** THE EMAILS THEMSELVES…

    Mr. Turbyfill had expressed his desire to attend the official ‘Question and Answer’ day in meetings he had with both Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney and his Deputy Administrative Assistant Joy Hernbrode.

    That request has been ‘passed on’ to attorney Patrick McGroder and his assistants… and here they are coming back to Arizona Forestry’s Joy Hernbrode with their ‘decision’ about whether the father of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill should even be allowed to attend the Q/A meeting…

    ===========================================================
    From: Clark, Shannon L.
    Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 12:08 PM
    To: Joy Hernbrode
    Cc: McGroder, Patrick J.
    Subject: David Turbyfill

    We think it would be counterproductive for him to attend.
    He is abrasive and he’s not our client.
    ===========================================================

    And here is Joy Hernbrode, just TWO MINUTES after receiving this email ‘shutting down’ Mr. Turbyfill’s attendance, asking Jeff Whitney how they should go about telling Mr. Turbyfill…

    ===========================================================
    From: Joy Hernbrode
    Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 12:10 PM
    To: Jeff Whitnery
    Subject: Re: David Turbyfill

    Jeff: Do you want to call Mr. Turbyfill or should I?

    Included: The email that came from Shannon L. Clark.
    ===========================================================
    From: Jeff Whitney
    Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 1:16 PM
    To: Joy Hernbrode
    Subject: Re: David Turbyfill

    So, it would appear that our call to him would be to wave him off? If so either of us could call MrTurbyfill…I could but it’ll tomorrow at the earliest. Regardless of which of us contacts him, I’d like to offer him some time if he would interested … Let me know.

    Thx, Jefe

    Sent from my iPhone
    ===========================================================
    From: Joy Hernbrode
    Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 5:14 PM
    To: Jeff Whitnery
    Subject: Re: David Turbyfill

    I called him back but had to leave a message. Told him to call either you or me.
    ===========================================================
    From: Jeff Whitney
    Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:53 PM
    To: Joy Hernbrode
    Subject: Re: David Turbyfill

    Thx!

    Sent from my iPhone
    ===========================================================

    Reply

    • Dirty, dirty, dirty little Grey People. I really do hope there is a special place in hell for people like Hernbrode, Whitney and all of the filthy little shysters who represented the TWELVE Families.

      Reply

      • I told everyone almost three years ago about my experiences having a place at the table (not as one of them, only in an staff advisory capacity) where these kind of people meet to make decisions. I told you what they are. I never dreamed we would be reading their insider emails.

        Or at least SOME of their insider emails, apparently they withheld the worst ones and redacted the shit out of the ones they did send. What was the reason for the redaction’s.

        Did those lines have national security matters, or the social security numbers or medical records of those involved? I TOLD what they are…and now they have shown you.

        Thanks JD for getting as much as you got and thank you WTKTT for keeping the rest of us up to speed as much as you can.

        Reply

      • Below is the text of the ACTUAL settlement agreement…

        Number ‘1’ below is the day-long ‘Question and Answer’ session that we now know was conducted in ‘secret’ back on February 5, 2016.

        Notice that it just says…

        “ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts”.

        It does NOT say…

        “ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with only the GMIHC families who are designated plaintiffs in this lawsuit and their consultants/experts”.

        A minor technicality, maybe… but it’s obvious that the actual language in the actual settlement agreement was meant to be ‘inclusive’… and not ‘exclusive’.

        Remember… the ‘spirit’ of the entire ‘settlement’ WAS meant to be ‘inclusive’ and that’s why even family members who were NOT part the ‘McGroder 12’ were also designated to receive a monetary award, albeit, a lesser amount than the 12 plaintiffs themselves ( $10,000 versus $30,000 ).

        Likewise… there was no such ‘limiting’ language with regards to the ‘Staff Ride’, either. It was using the same ‘inclusive’ references as item 1.

        But we see now that attorney Patrick McGroder decided to ‘play that card’ with ONLY the critical ‘Question and Answer’ day… and limit participants to ONLY ‘his clients’ for THAT settlement-required event… and NOT the ‘Staff Ride’ ( which Mr. David Turbyfill WAS allowed to attend ).

        ——————————————————————————–
        Page 11 of 11 – Settlement Agreement and Release
        USDC CV-14-02308-PHX

        APPENDIX-A

        What ASFD WILL do:

        1. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts to review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts. Counsel for the State Forester and the survivors shall be present. To the extent possible,questions will be submitted in writing 2 weeks in advance of the meeting. This will be a facilitated learning process, and Forestry will provide a facilitator to assist with this experience. Plaintiffs may request that specific individuals from ASFD and others who were present during the Yarnell Hill Fire attend.

        2. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request a Lessons Learned product regarding the Yarnell Hill fire.

        3. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire and will make its personnel and information it has collected available. In addition, ASFD will recommend that family members of the GMIHC crew be included in the process of developing the staff ride, and that NWCG review how this Fire relates to the Common Denominators in Fatality Fires and figure out if there is a common thread.
        ——————————————————————————–

        It probably all came down to the fact that Mr. David Turbyfill had never just sat back and swallowed the kool aid being offered by Arizona Forestry and the SAIT, and he was most likely being ‘penalized’ for even daring to have his PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Realities’ on the special online page he created for that purpose.

        We still don’t know exactly WHO was actually PRESENT at this ‘secret’ “Question and Answer” day.

        It would be interesting to know if any OTHER family members who were also NOT part of the ‘McGroder 12’ were, in fact, allowed to attend… and that McGroder just pulled that “our clients only” crap for the (quote) “abrasive” Mr. David Turbyfill.

        Notice ALSO that niether Joy Hernbrode or Jeff Whitney of Arizona Forestry lifted a single finger to even ‘negotiate’ about this on behalf of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill’s father, Mr. David Turbyfill.

        Just TWO MINUTES after getting that terse ‘we don’t want him there’ email, Joy Hernbrode was just emailing Jeff Whitney ( notice that he signs his emails to her as simply ‘Jefe’ ) and asking… “Okay… who’s gonna give him the bad news… me or you?”

        Neither Hernbrode or Whitney even tried to get them to reconsider the decision, even though they COULD have at least tried.

        Truth is… the decision was probably fine by them.

        THEY probably didn’t really want the (quote) “abrasive” Mr. David Turbyfill to be there, either, doing (quote) “counterproductive” things like… oh… you know… asking HARD questions about why his son burned to death in an Arizona Forestry workplace?

        Reply

  83. From…
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/#comment-336123

    Reply to William Riggles post on May 20, 2016 at 8:04 am

    >> William Riggles said…
    >>
    >> The Forest Service investigation concluded that nobody did anything
    >> wrong and that all actions taken by Yarnell wildfire supervisors and
    >> the Granite Mountain crew were reasonable and appropriate.
    >>
    >> This approach makes it O.K. to make the same mistakes in the future!

    Yes, it does.

    The best that some of the people that actually knew the men who died will ever be able to admit to themselves is probably something along the lines of “Well… maybe they weren’t as RIGHT that day as they could have been… but that still doesn’t mean they actually did anything WRONG”… and I suppose that is perfectly understandable.

    Brendan McDonough himself put it this way when he was being interviewed by the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) who were/are always legally tasked with investigating ALL serious accidents ( and especially fatalities ) in ANY Arizona employer workplace…

    From Brendan McDonough’s second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on October 10, 2013…

    Q2 = Marshal Krotenberg, ADOSH lead investigator.
    A = Brendan McDonough
    ——————————————————————————————-
    1074 A: And I’m not saying anyone made any mistakes because, you know, it – it
    1075 happened because of what decisions were made. I know. Whether – whether
    1076 it was – it’s not that it wasn’t a wrong decision. It just wasn’t the right one, if
    1077 that makes sense, you know?
    1078
    1079 Q2: Didn’t work out.
    1080
    1081 A: Yeah.
    ——————————————————————————————

    But in his new book, released just 2 weeks ago, Brendan actually CONFIRMS that the basic ‘operational policy’ of the Granite Mountain organization was, in fact, “risk a lot… save a lot”… and that ‘operational policy’ was coming from the “top down”.

    This, too, just reconfirms what Brendan told ADOSH investigators in that same interview way back on October 10, 2013…

    ——————————————————————————————-
    831 A: I think that’s just the job in general. I mean, you know, you want –
    832 you risk a lot, you save a lot.
    ——————————————————————————————-

    But when asked by ADOSH ( just moments after admitting that it was ‘policy’ for Granite Mountain to always ‘risk a lot… save a lot’ ) about the established SAFETY RULES for Wildland Firefighting ( like “Fight fire aggressively, but with SAFETY FIRST”, the 10&18, LCES, etc. )… Brendan just said the following…

    ——————————————————————————————–
    1025 A: It’s – it’s hillbilly. It’s what it is.
    1026
    1027 Q2: Yeah?
    1028
    1029 A: It’s old. It’s, uh, no offense to whoever came up with that, um, I mean no
    1030 disrespect to anybody, but, I mean, it is the way they fight wildland fires today
    1031 is, I mean…
    1032
    1033 Q2: Oh it’s…
    1034
    1035 A: We’re smart. We’re a lot smarter.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    And even in his ‘new book’… Brendan confirms this ( by what he NEVER mentions ).

    I would give you a page reference in Brendan’s new book where he ever even mentions LCES… if I could… but I can’t. That’s because he NEVER mentions it at all. Not once. Not ever.

    Not even when he was describing what he thought might have been going through Eric Marsh’s and Jesse Steed’s minds that day with regards to the risky move to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    So to say ( officially ) that “No one did anything wrong that day. Zero. Zip Nada” is to also ( officially ) ‘condone’ the “risk a lot… save a lot” approach ( with little or even no attention to the established safety rules ) to Wildland Firefighting… which we know now really was one of the underlying causes of this terrible tragedy in Yarnell.

    And that’s also what former Type 1 IHC Geronimo Hotshots Superintendent David Provencio was trying to point out to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley on August 5, 2013, WHILE Dudley was conducting his ‘investigation’ into the tragic ( and unnecessary ) deaths.

    That he ( and OTHER Hotshot Superintendents ) were being introduced first-hand to Eric Marsh’s “risk a lot… save a lot” Firefighting policy that day… and THEY ( collectively ) ALL said “No way, Eric… it’s TOO risky”.

    Reply

    • WTKTT is right on with pointing out the attitude Donut had toward the safety rules of wild land fire fighting and I doubt he could even tell you what LCES stands for. He is an example of the group think of GMHS and what Provencio did not like concerning the risk taking that he and other Superintendents were concerned about.

      Reply

      • The redactions are a statement to the public whom have footed the Yarnell tragedy that has cost the many lives, homes and millions in tax dollars. The redactions say public, you can’t handle the truth. Only those of the higher index of intelligenc are able to feed you what you need to know–and those elite individuals will decide among themselves how to mind fuck you.

        GMHS organization was a great example of mind fuck organiztional habits. When religion becomes mixed with militaristic training we come to situations that risk all and leaders that become of Greek God status. Thank God we have a few Woodsmen out there with a mind and warning the young man about the foibles of falling under the spell of mind fuck. God God of the Irish when Joy read me the training gleaned from Fernanda Santo’s book where Steed would draw a card out of a deck to determine how many pushups they would do after a long run I thought I was hearing a page out of my life when I was doing basic training push ups on the hot black asphalt in July, 1967 right outside a barracks of Ft. Biliss, Texas. When I understood that Marsh and Steed expected complete and strict obedience from their men I started to understand how 7 experienced men did not stop 7 inexperienced GMHS and their bosses from dropping off into one a situation against all common sense and definitely against the LCES–something Donut would shun as hill billy.

        It makes the statement of Woodsman stand out–Young Man in Wild Land Wild Fire Fighting–your safety best be in your hands–not some gung ho boss wanting to make a name for himself at the expense of your life.

        This is not a military situation of saving America–these manzanita patches can burn and structures in a Yarnell situation are going to burn once that fire has gone wild–these is not a damn thing a man with a Pulaski can do to save a home in a situation like we saw–but he can stand back in a safe zone and watch the big dog eat.

        I know — I did before not even know there was a LCES for wild land fire fighters–but as my own look out I could see that it was damn sure was an extreme danger zone to drop off in a trap with that thunderstorm brewing beyond the fire–the GMHS bossed knew, but they ran the risk anyway.

        That is why men of long term wild land fire fighting experience that have no agenda (such as reputation saving, keeping their paycheck, and fear of offending) need to be investigating this That would include especially human factor people and professionals–Dr. Ted Putnam and Gary Olsen head the list with WTKTT, Powers, Provencio (shows no fear of retribution for his testimony and evidence), Marti, and the like. They need to see the redactions–as does every citizen–to make our own evaluations of what was redacted. We have had enough mind fuck–now we need some answers.

        Reply

        • I meant the bosses knew, but certainly some of the bossed knew as well at Yarnell–for example Joy did not realize the danger she was seeing yet I absolutely knew without a doubt–so much has to do with experience over a long period of time. I truly believe that many in the GMHS also knew the danger of going down yet the mind fuck they were under overcame their resistance to refuse the extreme risk they were about to take.

          Provencio and Shoeffler deserve awards for not fearing to come forward exposing what they knew about the situation and the disaster bound to happen caused by GMHS Marsh’s propensity to take jobs that risked his men’s lives in situations other Supers had refused due to the risk of killing their men.
          If Marsh is a hero for killing those under him then explain to me how.. It is obvious he was put into a position he was never qualified for–and Steed as well fell down on his duty–though we understand by record very reluctantly.
          Who then above them allowed those actions and demanded that structures be protected with what would have been obviously futile efforts against a fire of such magnitude?

          By luck, Donut was saved–Frisby deserves the limelight and ought to be another one writing a book on this fire. Fair enough though–Donut’s book is about him and his real life tragedies and he has had plenty with a near escape with bosses having no clue that they had left him in a position to die had not Frisby appeared as an angel of rescue. This whole fire fighting effort reeks of ignorance and unnecessary risk taking.

          Reply

          • looking at Donut’s book cover—the pyramid—seems to permeate that maybe there is some deeper symbolism because I was told and I have to admit it was Smokey Bear that told me but maybe he is one of the rebels that ain’t a part of the system’s way of thinking- but we the taxpayers do not want the State or Forestry or anyone else that we the taxpayers help your incomes play like you are some NASA organization or a part in some Freemason secret society- YOU have NO RIGHT to redact ANY information — litigation or not — IT IS PUBLIC INFORMATION. Charlie, the FACTS for the redaction is the TRUTH could indeed RUIN the very fabric they built this corrupt system of stealing for us and keep allowing lives and homes ot be lost- THAT FIRE should of been PUT OUT SOONER and those men should of been on their day off- SIMPLE!

            We pay your incomes — give us raw and unedited information so we can make our own assessments-
            YOU are the only ones to BLAME for our discussions to try and dissect what you share and the bottom line the answers are in WHAT YOU DO NOT SHARE-

            Reply

              • LIEvelyhood is how their reasoning most likely is…they got bills to pay and their overhead is alot-

                Reply

                • Also on topic- Charlie mentioned an area I read of Santo’s book because cardiologist knew appt. was at 1pm but he came in loooonnnggg after that so I read the book to aloud and in Santo’s book on topic of Yin and Yang- Introvert and Extrovert- on the GMHS leaders-
                  factors of when hired and how hired and what pressures their roles had and the history of GMHS was created and how involved was Duane Steinbrink in this all and the elements and pressures of city officials—I thought about what Claire said— how can we help her feeling ugh when she sees articles like such? If this site is a disturbance to hers or others lives then they need to use their strength to govern their path to rise above and use this site to their favor and growth and happiness and be glad you have the peace while us here do not have peace on yhf and I hope to one day have that—I know the simplicity to life and it has its storms; some with warning and some not —

                  yet the forecast remains firms that at times storms come and go and in my life I learned if you follow the direction of the storm and where it blows—it seems to pass faster unless in your life you are dealing with occult science or hidden higher ups- I know we were followed in the start to mid in all this and when I looked at its “beehive” hexagonal manner it came at me…Iearned in it no one close up or at a distance will comprehend the purity of my knowing Sonny yet in it I know there will be accumulated perceptions to try to ruin happiness to ensure their LIEvelyhoods—all I can do is embrace the triangle (the pyramid) that was built to create this system…what is a mystery today can be demolished and destroyed and truth shine tomorrow-

                  Reply

        • Charlie,

          I’m honored by the honorable mention.

          The system apparently has the capability of manufacturing crew boss’ with killer hubris and blind followers as crewmen, unfortunately. The business of wildland firefighting also attracts some bonafide free-thinking rebels, fortunately. There must be a balance between keeping order of ones forces and blind following ignorance. It’s incumbent upon leadership to ensure this balance at all times with these crews. I must not fail to mention that a structural fire department shouldn’t have had a type 1 IHC in the first place. The pyramid scheme symbolism and extreme life coaching you, Joy, and others have uncovered with the crew is really starting to freak me out.

          Yep. Mind control as well as a need to prove themselves to be the baddest ass crew on the planet were among the many faults that proved to be contributing factors in the death of a bunch a kids with their whole lives in front of them…some with wives and children – it’s heart-breaking.

          We must not discount pressures from above with expectations of management as well. It’s a tangled mess which must be broken down for the whole truth and learned from in order to prevent its ever happening again.

          Woodsman

          Reply

          • I should amend my post to say that it has the appearance (to me) of mind control and a need to prove themselves was a contributing factor in the death of the crew when I said:

            “Yep. Mind control as well as a need to prove themselves to be the baddest ass crew on the planet were among the many faults that proved to be contributing factors in the death of a bunch a kids with their whole lives in front of them…some with wives and children – it’s heart-breaking.”

            I figure I’d clear that up before my ‘Yep’ gets anyone’s panties in a bunch. An accusation of mind control is pretty strong absent concrete evidence of support of which I do not have at this time.

            Woodsman

            Reply

    • The ‘risk a lot to save a lot’ terminology should NEVER, EVER have been brought into, or utilized, in the wildland world, and here’s why:

      The complete terminology of ‘risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little, and risk nothing to save nothing’, was brought into the structural firefighting world to promote safer operations at a time when too many structural firefighter were being killed in situations where nothing could have possibly been saved anyway.

      The “lot” in the saying, SPECIFICALLY MEANS “LIVES”, as in, risk a life to save a life. The “little” in the saying, simply means structures, as in, risk a little to save a structure. The “nothing” in the saying, simply means, if nothing can be saved, risk nothing (which could be applied to vacant land, as well).

      You will notice that there is NOTHING in the above paragraph that describes risking a lot (life) for anything other than saving the life of another human being (and specifically, that’s a viable human being, who would not have already succumbed to heat and poisonous gases).

      Apparently the phrases in question got ‘mission-creeped’ into GM thinking processes, where they became bastardized into meaning something totally outside of the specifics they were created for.

      This, in and of itself, is a strong example of just one of the external factors never investigated, because the USFS has decided “external factors” shouldn’t be included in any of their fatality investigations, even though, during the SAIT, they had someone designated to do just that.

      Reply

      • Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
        post May 21, 2016 at 2:43 pm

        >> TTWARE said…
        >>
        >> The ‘risk a lot to save a lot’ terminology should NEVER, EVER,
        >> have been brought into, or utilized in, the wildland world, and
        >> here’s why:
        >>
        >> The complete terminology of ‘risk a lot to save a lot, risk a
        >> little to save a little, and risk nothing to save nothing’, was
        >> brought into the structural firefighting world to promote
        >> safer operations, at a time when too many structural
        >> firefighter were being killed in situations where nothing
        >> could have possibly been saved anyway.

        Yep.

        Original ‘quote’ came from Phoenix, Arizona Fire Chief Alan Brunacini’s book he write in 1985, entitled “Fire Command” and published by the National Fire Protection Association ( NFPA ).

        “Risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little, and risk nothing to save nothing.” ( Brunacini, 1985)

        By his own admission… Brunacini said the concepts and advice in his book were ONLY meant to cover “STRUCTURAL firefighting”.

        STRUCTURAL Fire Chief Brunacini’s 1985 book is still available on Amazon…
        http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Command-Alan-Brunacini/dp/0877652848/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

        By 2001… even on the STRUCTURAL side of firefighting… the International Association of Fire Chiefs ( which original book author Brunacini himself was a member of ) decided that even STRUCTURAL firefighters had begun to ‘bastardize’ that original saying to justify their own over-the-top risk taking… so they ( the IAFC ) issued a new bulletin and ‘updated’ their own official ‘Rules of Engagement’…

        http://feti.lsu.edu/resources/2015/SB-21.pdf

        IAFC’S 10 RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

        The International Association of Fire Chief’s (IAFC), in 2001, developed and published its “10 Rules of Engagement for Structural Firefighting” that apply to all fires:

        Acceptability of Risk

        1. No building or property is worth the life of a firefighter.

        >> TTWARE also said…
        >>
        >> The “lot” in the saying, SPECIFICALLY MEANS “LIVES”, as in, risk
        >> a life to save a life. The “little” in the saying, simply means
        >> structures, as in, risk a little to save a structure. The “nothing” in the
        >> saying, simply means, if nothing can be saved, risk nothing (which
        >> could be applied to vacant land, as well).
        >>
        >> You will notice that there is NOTHING in the above paragraph that
        >> describes risking a lot (life) for anything other than saving the life of
        >> another human being (and specifically, that’s a viable human being,
        >> who would not have already succumbed to heat and poisonous gases).
        >>
        >> Apparently the phrases in question, got ‘mission-creeped’ into GM
        >> thinking processes, where they became bastardized into meaning
        >> something totally outside of the specifics they were created for.

        Thank you for pointing that out.

        YES… ‘adrenaline junkies’ and people who are too obsessed with the whole HERO thing have been ALLOWED to turn the phrase into something that ( to them ) just means…

        “If we ‘risk a lot’ ALL THE TIME… then every now and then we might
        SAVE A LOT and keep the HERO MOJO going”.

        Once again… Brendan CONFIRMED that WAS the ‘GM way of thinking’ in his October 10, 2013 ADOSH interview. Right after telling ADOSH that he was ‘taught’ that the job of being a ‘Hotshot’ is to “risk a lot, save a lot”, Brendan takes it a step further and confirmed that they would ALWAYS do that ( risk ANYTHING )… even if there was the chance nothing would come from it…

        A = Brendan McDonough
        ———————————————————————————–
        836 A: …Risk anything, sometimes don’t get anything out of it.
        ———————————————————————————–

        And just moments later… Brendan also told ADOSH that as far as Granite Mountain was concerned… simple ‘structures’ ( even empty ones ) were right up there on their “risk a LOT, save a LOT” radar…

        ———————————————————————————–
        846 A: …if you risk a LOT, we could save a house.
        ———————————————————————————–

        >> TTWARE also said…
        >>
        >> This, in and of itself, is a strong example of just one of the
        >> external factors never investigated, because the USFS has
        >> decided “external factors” shouldn’t be included in any of their
        >> fatality investigations, even though, during the SAIT, they had
        >> someone designated to do just that.

        Yep. His name was Brad Mayhew, and he was the DESIGNATED “Human Factors” investigator for the SAIT investigation Team.

        Here is what his ‘job’ was supposed to be during the SAIT investigation, as per his ‘credit’ at the bottom of the publicly released SAIR report…

        PDF page 119 of the SAIR…
        Appendix H: SAIT Team Members & Signature Page
        Investigation Team
        Brad Mayhew, Investigator / Human Factors, Fireline Factors Consulting

        According to the emails just released by USFS… The actual person who was in CHARGE of the “Human Factors” aspects of the SAIT investigation was never even informed by Mike Dudley about the emails he was receiving ( with the offer of DOCUMENTED PROOF ) from Type 1 IHC Geronimo Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio.

        So not only do these emails (apparently) show us that Mike Dudley ended up ‘thanking’ people for the (quote) “hard work they did” helping him to HIDE evidence ( the original Aarron Hulburd M2U00265 video )… we also (apparently) see Mike Dudley purposely deciding to HIDE potentially relevant evidence from his OWN SAIT team members.

        And any evidence related to “Human Factors” was, no doubt, crucial evidence that SHOULD have been fully evaluated by the SAIT.

        From the recent article…
        ——————————————————
        In October 2013 a GROUP of hotshot superintendents went to the Yarnell Hill fire fatality site and went over the scenario they believe led to the tragedy, David Provencio said.

        The hotshot superintendents concluded that the Yarnell Hill disaster was one that many of them saw coming for years. The crew, under Marsh’s leadership, had been lucky until June 30 because it had survived a series of bad leadership decisions.

        “This shit shouldn’t have ever happened,” one hotshot superintendent said during the gathering of those who best know how a hotshot crew should SAFELY operate.
        —————————————————————

        Reply

  84. Thought for the day (someone emailed me this and I think is sums everything that happened and answers the question of “why” the best in a single sentence.

    “Everything makes sense when I think of GMHS as the Prescott Fire Department Category One Hand Crew.”

    Reply

  85. Reply to Muzzy post on May 19, 2016 at 7:07 pm

    >> Muzzy said…
    >>
    >> Excellent points. I wonder if this “no one did anything wrong” philosophy
    >> is a result of the Cantwell-Hastings legislation that effectively requires a
    >> criminal investigation into fatal accidents, as suggested here:

    You mean THIS piece of legislation, right?

    Cantwell / Hastings
    =========================================================================
    ( ( Page 116 STAT. 744 ) ) – Public Law 107-203 – 107th Congress

    An Act

    To provide for an independent investigation of Forest Service firefighter deaths that are caused by wildfire entrapment or burnover. NOTE: July 24, 2002 – ( H.R. 3971 ).

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. NOTE: 7 USC 2270b. – DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE INSPECTOR
    GENERAL INVESTIGATION OF FOREST SERVICE FIREFIGHTER DEATHS.

    In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service.

    SEC. 2. – NOTE: Reports. 7 USC 2270c. – SUBMISSION OF RESULTS.

    As soon as possible after completing an investigation under section

    1, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall submit to Congress and the Secretary of Agriculture a report containing the results of the investigation.

    Approved July 24, 2002.

    LEGISLATIVE HISTORY–H.R. 3971:
    —————————————————————————
    CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Vol. 148 (2002):
    June 24, considered and passed House.
    July 10, considered and passed Senate.
    ===========================================================================

    >> Muzzy also said…
    >>
    >> Cantwell-Hastings legislation that effectively requires a
    >> criminal investigation into fatal accidents.

    It does NOT “effectively REQUIRE a CRIMINAL investigation”.

    What it REQUIRES is simply “an investigation” by an entity that is NOT the Forestry Service.

    From the legislation…

    “The investigation shall NOT rely on, and shall be completely independent of any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service.”

    And from what we all know now about how competently the U.S. Forestry Service goes about investigating the deaths of its own employees… ‘Cantwell/Hasting’ is a GOOD THING.

    >> Muzzy said…
    >>
    >> If so, it seems that we should all be working to repeal this very bad law.

    I don’t think it’s a bad law at all.

    See above.

    From what we all know now about how competently the U.S. Forestry Service goes about investigating the deaths of its own employees… they are the LAST people in the world who should be doing it at all.

    >> Muzzy said…
    >>
    >> If witnesses are fearful of prosecution, of course they will lawyer up.

    That is their constitutional right.

    And *sometimes* they SHOULD ‘lawyer up’… because *sometimes* they have, in fact, participated in either directly or indirectly helping someone to get killed in a taxpayer funded workplace.

    >> Muzzy also said…
    >>
    >> Trying to work around the law by assuring them that no one will be
    >> found at fault during the FS investigation will fail because the law requires
    >> an independent investigation by the inspector general.

    Only if a U.S. Forestry employee dies.

    But rather than try to protect their own employees… U.S. Forestry seems to have just opted for an approach that NEVER finds any ‘fault’.

    They don’t WANT to do the best they can to prevent future accidents.
    They just don’t WANT to ever HELP anyone else ( OSHA, OIG, whoever ) figure out what really happened.

    Just keep giving us all the taxpayer dollars we want… and then shut-the-fuck-up and go away and leave us alone.

    And speaking of ‘Cantwell-Hastings’… a lot of people still think that just because the 3 firefighters who died at the TWISP fire were U.S. Forestry employees that somehow this ‘law’ automatically ‘kicked in’ like it was supposed to and there is some kind of investigation into TWISP going on at the USDA OIG office.

    News Flash: There is still NO INDICATION that is happening at all.

    There has NEVER been any kind of ‘announcement’ or ‘press release’ from the USDA OIG office that they are even aware of the TWISP River Fire fatalities, or that they are ‘looking into it’ in any way.

    USDA OIG Investigations…
    https://www.usda.gov/oig/invest.htm

    You can search all day long at this OIG ‘Inspections’ site.
    You will find NOTHING related to ‘Twisp’. Zero. Zip. Nada.

    Not even any indication that any kind of OIG investigation was ever even STARTED for the Twisp River Fire fatalities.

    But as for the OSHA investigation into what really happened in that TWISP River Fire and the deaths of those 3 USFS employees in THAT workplace…

    Well… if anyone has been holding their breath waiting to hear about what THAT investigation might have found… you could have exhaled MONTHS ago.

    OSHA looked into the deaths in that Twisp River Fire workplace for a grand total of 7 days…. and their final conclusion(s)?

    You guessed it.

    “Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along”.

    ** THE TWISP FIRE OSHA INVESTIGATION RESULTS

    The Twisp River Fire OSHA investigation was ‘opened’ on August 21, 2015, just 48 hours after the fatalities took place at the Twisp River Fire.

    The ‘Closing Conference’ for the ‘investigation’ was held just 7 days later,

    There was no activity in the case following that, and the case was officially CLOSED on January 26, 2016.

    It was ‘officially’ labelled an ‘Accident’… but with absolutely NO DETAILS or even a ‘Summary’ of the Incident provided.

    No citations or workplace violations or fines were ever either suggested or imposed.

    The OSHA Case file for the ‘Twisp River Fatalities’ is here…
    https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/establishment.inspection_detail?id=1087290.015

    NOTE: There is absolutely NO ‘Investigation Summary’ attached to this OSHA case record, even though the case officially CLOSED on January 26, 2016.

    If you look at ANY of the other ‘Case records’ on the same OSHA site… there is ALWAYS at least some kind of ‘Investigation Summary’ document attached to a case file.

    Not so with this OSHA ‘Twisp Fire’ workplace fatality investigation.

    There is NOTHING.

    There isn’t even the usual ‘Violation Summary’ document to say that there were ‘No Violations’, as seen with any other case file.

    Here is all you see at the OSHA link above…

    ===========================================================================
    Inspection Detail
    Case Status: CLOSED
    Inspection: 1087290.015 – U.S. Forest Service
    Inspection Information – Office: Bellevue
    Nr: 1087290.015
    Report ID: 1032300
    Open Date: 08/21/2015 ( 2 days after the August 19, 2015 Twisp fire fatalities )
    U.S. Forest Service
    Twisp River Fire
    Twisp, WA 98856
    Union Status: Union
    SIC: ( No entry )
    NAICS: 115310 / Support Activities for Forestry
    Mailing: 215 Melody Lane, Wenatchee, WA 98801
    Inspection Type: Fat/Cat
    Scope: Partial
    Advanced Notice: N
    Ownership: ( No entry )
    Safety/Health: Safety
    Emphasis: ( No entry )
    L: Fedsafe
    Close Conference: 08/28/2015 ( 7 days after the investigation was opened ).
    Close Case: 01/26/2016 ( Case ‘officially’ CLOSED January 26, 2016 )
    Related Activity:
    Type: Accident
    ID: 1013612
    Safety: ( No entry )
    Health: ( No entry )
    Case Status: CLOSED
    Violation Summary: ( Nothing )
    Violation Items: ( Nothing )
    Accident Investigation Summary: ( Nothing )
    =======================================================================

    At least FOUR Twisp investigations have now ‘concluded’ ( Local Sheriff, County DPS, USFS ‘CRP’ protocol investigation, and the official OSHA investigation )… and LOTS and LOTS of taxpayer dollars have been spent…

    And we still don’t even know which of the 3 dead firefighters was even driving the fucking truck.

    Reply

    • We haven’t heard ‘jack shit’ about the Twisp fatalities because the feds are more interested in shielding themselves from liability, both personally and professionally, protecting their respective agencies. and their precious retirement checks which some plan on supplementing by taking fire assignments after ‘they got theirs.’

      We haven’t heard ‘jack shit’ about the Twisp fatalities because many other considerations are way more important to the ‘powers that be’ than young firefighters lives. When you boil it down, they don’t give a fuck about the little guy. They can’t even fake that they do. We are numbers on paper.

      It’s up to you, young firefighters out there on the line today, to watch out for yourselves, because management DOES NOT GIVE ONE FUCK about you. How’s that for truth?!!??

      Dear Management,

      FUCK YOU!!!

      Sincerely,

      Anonymous Ground Pounder

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • Woodsman,

        I believe you are correct that these folks on the line are on their own. Even if management cared deeply about them, they are on their own. But management only cares as much as we make them care. They learned at Thirty Mile that an angry parent will cause them more trouble than any investigation ever could. Angry parents will get the newspapers involved, and Congress and all their neighbors and friends. So now, the Investigators will never blame the FF for their own death, as they did at Thirty Mile; calling them heroes is added insurance. I suspect that a lot of the coverup we’ve witnessed is as much about managing parental and spousal reaction as it is trying to manipulate public opinion in general.

        As you can see from my earlier reply to WTKTT, I don’t believe that Public Law 107-203 (Cantwell-Hastings) that resulted from parental activism solved any problems and may be making even harder to make systemic changes going forward.

        I don’t have answers, just questions…

        Reply

        • Muzzy,

          I’m good at discerning people. You get a thumbs up. Obviously you have knowledge of legislative policy and experience working with officials in that arena – using the phrase “going forward” was a key indicator. (I profile people for kicks.) With that said, THANK YOU for your thoughts & perspective!

          This entire discussion needs to “stay on the table.”

          Woodsman

          Reply

        • Muzzy,

          You said:

          ” I suspect that a lot of the coverup we’ve witnessed is as much about managing parental and spousal reaction as it is trying to manipulate public opinion in general.”

          I say: Very insightful thought. What you said right there is congruous with the phrase seen in the emails concerning “the curve”, and where ‘they’ are in regards to it. For example, Willis’ consternation about the release of info from DPS and his exasperation of it all…so much so that he had to ‘get away’ and turn off his cell phone.

          Woodsman

          Reply

          • I should also point out that Mr Dudley exhibits the most prevalent behavior in regards to ‘safe guarding’ the narrative. It’s all over those emails.

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • Woodsman,

              All these guys are where they are by being good at this. When I watch Willis on video, I think the structure fire guys’ brains just work that way. He’s a small town guy, and he was spouting nonsense, but he had the press eating out of his hand. I’m sure more than one reporter was throwing up a little in his mouth, but they didn’t dare press him. Structure FFs rely on public support and good graces, and they learn early to cultivate an image that keeps them there, including stories of heroic self-sacrifice and courage. FFs have the best PR of any profession, bar none.

              BTW I learned everything I know from TV. I heard the the show that most emulated Washington culture is Veep, which should explain a lot!

              Reply

              • Muzzy,

                You learned everything you know from TV? Right! Gotcha.

                The image of the FF was changed right after 911. We gained much more recognition after that in my opinion. Before 911 nobody really spoke to me or gave me any attention on trips to fires. After 911 that changed. Folks will come up to you in the airport or even on the flight and thank you and generally make a big deal of it. I’m not saying it’s not appreciated (albeit it can be embarrassing- I’m just a regular schmo with a job!) but I’m just saying not many gave a rip before. The ‘vaulted status’ of firefighters today can be a little over the top.

                Woodsman

                Reply

                • You all certainly deserve respect for your commitment to keeping us safe. Thank you all for your service.

                  Reply

        • Reply to Muzzy post on May 20, 2016 at 10:27 am

          >> Muzzy said…
          >>
          >> Hi WTKTT,
          >> According to the usda oig web site:
          >>
          >> ( Description of the scope and responsibilities )
          >> ( of the USDA OIG section )
          >>
          >> This sure sounds like a criminal investigative unit.

          Well… YES… they certainly have the AUTHORITY to conduct a ‘criminal investigation’, but before an ‘investigation’ can even be CALLED a ‘criminal investigation’… that investigation must first find PCRTB ( Probably Cause, Reason to Believe ) that a CRIME has actually been committed.

          Just because they are tasked with ‘investigating’ incidents doesn’t AUTOMATICALLY make it a ‘criminal’ investigation… right off the bat.

          Same as local law enforcement, really.

          The ‘yellow tape’ might SAY ‘Crime Scene’ on it… but it’s really ( technically ) not until some evidence of a crime is actually FOUND.

          So the ‘responsibilities’ that the ‘Cantwell-Hastings’ legislation dumped onto the USDA OIG section with regards to be REQUIRED to ‘investigate’ Fireline fatalities involving U.S. Forestry personnel is a unique situation.

          The legislation REQUIRES the USDA OIG section to ‘investigate’.
          The legislation does NOT require them to treat it as a ‘criminal investigation’ until some evidence of ‘criminality’ is actually uncovered by the investigation itself.

          But YES… even before any ‘evidence’ of ‘criminality’ is found… USDA OIG has all the same investigative powers as any legitimate ‘law enforcement’ agency… including the power of subpoena and the guns on their belts.

          >> Muzzy also wrote…
          >>
          >> Moreover, it sounds like one that has no interest or expertise
          >> in wildland management or WUI fire suppression.

          I have no idea what level of ‘expertise’ for either of those things is actually found in the USDA OIG. Maybe more than you think. I’m sure the USDA OIG has the other ‘powers’ that you would expect and that is to bring in ‘experts’ anytime they need them to help them with any aspect of any investigation they are required to do.

          >> Muzzy also wrote…
          >>
          >> This law was passed to handle one issue, the Thirty Mile Fire
          >> entrapment, and the OIG caught some flack from some (including
          >> John Maclean) for aggressively prosecuting only one person
          >> for the loss of those four souls. If Daniels was so obviously
          >> incompetent, the people who put him in charge should also be
          >> held to account, on up the chain. This law looks like a great
          >> opportunity for scapegoating, which is hardly better than the
          >> whitewashing we have now.

          I am no expert on what went on ( before, during or after ) the Thirty Mile Fire. Maybe it was a botched investigation… maybe not. I ( me, personally ) can’t say.

          There is potential for a ‘botch job’ to happen at ANY level… State Forestry, U.S. Forestry, or even USDA OIG level investigations. That’s where ‘oversight’ and ‘appeals’ kick into the system ( ANY system that is finding ‘wrongdoing’ ).

          Finding out the TRUTH ( when no one involved really wants you to know ) is NEVER easy, for ANYONE. When people involved simply don’t want to talk to you… you better have some way to try and FORCE them to… or you’re not going to get the ‘whole story’.

          And then there is ALWAYS ( at ANY level of ANY investigation )… the 5th ammendment.

          In the case of this ‘Fire Brotherhood’ thing… I don’t actually think the threat ( or lack of any threat ) of ‘prosecution’ really makes a damn bit of difference to some/most of these people. I think you could create an ‘investigative’ agency that first automatically issues total ‘freedom from any prosecution’ edicts covering EVERYONE… before they even try to ‘talk’ to them… and some/most of these people would STILL decline to be interviewed or supply any information at all regarding a fatality incident.

          In that respect… this ‘Fire Brotherhood’ thing really is like the ‘Masons’ or the ‘Mafia’ ( oops… excuse me… I know they prefer ‘Cosa Nostra’, sorry ).

          ‘Cosa Nostra’ actually just translates to “our THING”.

          In that respect… the ‘Fire Brotherhood’ thing really is, then, just “their THING”. Their mantra ( like other secret societies and cultures ) is, at all times, this pervasive opinion that no one can ever ‘understand them’… but ‘them’… so give us the money we need to operate… and then shut-the-fuck-up and GO AWAY and leave us along to do “our thing”.

          I digress.

          I still think the IDEA for the ‘Cantwell/Hastings’ legislation was/is VALID.

          U.S. Forestry had already PROVED that they were unable/unwilling to properly investigate their own fatality incidents. They weren’t just the ‘foxes being allowed to GUARD the henhouse’… they were also foxes dressed up as chickens and INSIDE the henhouse itself.

          Put it this way…

          For all its potential ‘issues’ itself… I would certainly NOT like to see the ‘Cantwell/Hastings’ requirement just ‘go away’ and let the foxes take over again… unless some other equally ‘independent’ alternative to ‘Cantwell/Hastings’ is already ‘in place’ before that happens.

          I don’t think one day should ever go by again with U.S. Forestry being the SOLE agency required to investigate their own fatality incidents.

          And I also think we just seen proof-positive in Arizona that the STATE level Forestry workplaces should be included in ‘Cantwell/Hastings’. Arizona Forestry did nothing but prove they are incapable of competently investigating employee fatalities in THEIR own ‘workplaces’.

          >> Muzzy also wrote…
          >>
          >> USDA covers both the FS and OIG, so no independence there.

          Again… I have no knowledge ( or opinion ) on how ‘independent’ the USDA OIG section really is or isn’t, or whether there’s any history there with them NOT maintaining the proper ‘independence’ when investigating other agencies with the same ‘parent company’ USDA. Maybe the USDA IOG is actually rife with corruption and they just ‘do what the parent company wants’… maybe not. I honestly don’t know.

          Again… as with any governmental agency… the KEY is ‘oversight’.

          >> Muzzy also wrote…
          >>
          >> OSHA should offer the best chance of relief, but OSHA is a joke,
          >> for miners, for oilfield workers, for factory workers, for farm
          >> workers, etc.

          Your knowledge on that topic also seems to exceed mine. I think you can find many more ‘success stories’ with OSHA than the ‘jokes’ or ‘failures’ you might be referring to… but I am not really ‘up to speed’ on that topic.

          I think ADOSH did a DAMN good job investigating the Yarnell Hill Fire and that chaotic Arizona Forestry workplace… given the short time and the limited money they had in order to do it.

          >> Muzzy also wrote…
          >>
          >> I’d be interested to hear Marti Reed’s thoughts on this. The
          >> solution to chronic problems caused by predictable
          >> clusterf***s is not prosecution of low-level managers, not
          >> lawyering up, and not whitewashing the reality. What it is I don’t
          >> know, but those ways are not working.

          The fundamental problem here is that we are talking about DEATH.

          That’s right. DEATH.

          We’re not talking about who is ( or isn’t ) supposed to investigate hoses missing from fire trucks or Pulaskis missing from Type 1 IHC lockers.

          We’re talking about WHO is supposed to investigate incidents where public civil servants have actually lost their LIVES in totally taxpayer-funded public WORKPLACES.

          And whenever that happens… there actually always IS some degree of probability that those lives were lost in that PUBLIC workplace due to any one of the following…

          1. NEGLIGENCE
          2. CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE
          3. GROSS NEGLIGENCE
          4. GROSS NEGLIGENCE WITH DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE
          5. ACTUAL MANSLAUGHTER
          6. ACTUAL MURDER

          ALL of those ‘possibilities’ are ALWAYS there.

          So WHO gets to investigate… WHAT they are able to find out about what really happened… and WHAT happens after the ‘facts are known’ is a process that should NEVER be handled by anything but the highest level of professional investigation that can be mustered.

          Because it’s ( potentially ) SERIOUS SHIT.

          Sometimes people CAN and SHOULD ‘go to jail’ over what might have happened.

          Any one of us can potentially ‘fuck up’ so badly in our responsibilities in a workplace that, if deaths result, we *might* be liable of any of the following items up above ( 1 through 6 )… and I’m not just talking about ‘Fire People’.

          That’s just a fact ( but a fact that scares the shit out of the U.S. Forestry Service ).

          So somewhere between “total whitewash and obfuscation” and “total scapegoating” lies “the best investigation possible”.

          Some time ago… Marti Reed pointed out that the CDC already has what appears to be the perfect ‘alternative’ to Cantwell/Hastings. They have something called NIOSH and they ALREADY have a VERY sophisticated ‘Fire Fighting Fatality’ Investigation Division.

          The ‘Investigations’ that NIOSH has done ( including many Wildland Fatality investigations ) have been incredibly well done. Super-detailed, super researched, and uber-smart “Lessons to Learn”, findings and recommendations.

          The only PROBLEM is that ( unlike USDA OIG )… NIOSH currently has no ‘investigative clout’ whatsoever.

          To this day… the only time NIOSH is ‘allowed’ to do an investigation of a Fire Fatality incident is if they request ( and are granted ) ‘permission’ to do so by the other agencies involved. They have no ‘mandate’ at all to be investigating Fire Fatalities.

          And ever after being ‘invited’ to do an investigation… ‘cooperation’ with that NIOSH investigation is still fully ‘voluntary’ on the part of everyone involved… including individuals. NIOSH can only ‘ask’ if you would consent to an interview… and you are totally free to just say “Nope”.

          But if NIOSH actually DID get a ‘mandate’… and they DID get some ‘investigative clout’ and ‘power of subpoena’ like USDA OIG has ( minus the guns and holsters and stuff )… it would be a whole new world when it comes to the investigation of Fire Fatalities.

          Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
          CDC 24/7:Saving lives, Protecting People (TM)
          The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health ( NIOSH )
          Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program
          http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/default.html

          —————————————————————
          Recently Released Fire Fatality Investigation Reports…

          NOTE: Notice the DATES on these reports. NIOSH remains BUSY and actively involved in Fire Fighter Fatality investigations pretty much ALL the time… including right up to THIS MONTH… and 9 days ago.

          ALSO NOTE: These ‘Recently Released’ reports are obviously all ‘Structural Fire Fighting’ related… but NIOSH has, in fact, investigated all kinds of Wildland Fire Fighter deaths, when there has been the correct requests and cooperation in place.

          Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation # F2015-12 Captain Suffers Sudden Cardiac Death While Performing Physical Fitness Training—Mississippi (added 5/10/16)

          Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation # F2013-14 Career Probationary Fire Fighter Runs Out of Air and Dies in Commercial Structure Fire—Michigan (added 4/19/16)

          Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation # F2014-15 Career Fire Fighter Dies in Heavy Smoke on Second Floor of a Residential Structure—Texas (added 3/28/16)

          Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation # F2015-03 Battalion Chief Dies From Aortic Dissection After Physical Fitness Training – Missouri (added 3/22/16)

          Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation # F2014-09 Lieutenant and Fire Fighter Die and 13 Fire Fighters injured in a Wind-driven Fire in a Brownstone—Massachusetts (added 3/18/16)

          Other links…

          Cancer Study
          Learn how NIOSH conducted the largest study of U.S. fire fighters ever undertaken, researching whether the group has a higher risk of cancer due to job exposures .

          SCBA— What You Want to Know
          NIOSH approves self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA) for use by fire fighters and other first responders to terrorist attacks .
          Find a respirator user notice .
          —————————————————

          Reply

          • WTKTT

            Thank you for your detailed answer. It really made me think

            First, I should apologize to OSHA, as they do a great job with little. My direct experience with them is mostly a bunch of workplace safety posters that were ignored on a regular basis. Congressional action in 1990 exempted them from the inflation calculator, so fines did not increase between 1990 and 2015. That’s corrected now, but they still have lots to do with only weak punitive power. The highest charge they can make is a misdemeanor and the statute of limitations on records violations. Is 6 months. Puny, but our fault, not theirs.

            I also misspoke above: OSHA doesn’t handle mining safety, MSHA, also under Labor Dept. does.

            NIOSH is an interesting choice to complete the investigation. I have great respect for all the National Institutes, but they are primarily research institutes. The fire investigation page even states explicitly that they don’t try to assign blame. In fact, their methods sound very similar to this new CRP system. All I know about either of them is from the first page of the website, so I’m open to learn more.

            I’d like to explore this question of what the investigators need to do a good job. Subpoena power and the ability to write search warrants sound good. Is that too aggressive? Will that cause people to lawyer up and stymie the discovery of the truth? Is it even possible to do a good job of teasing out the sources of system failures and try to assign blame in the same process? If not, then we will need to choose: do we prosecute those who screw up, or do we improve the way the system works?

            My personal opinion is that except for blatant dereliction of duty, substance abuse and the like, most failures are forced by the system anyway, and punishment after the fact isn’t going to bring those kids back. Everyone trying to do more with less, “can do!” mentality, threats of lost funding if certain goals are not met. No one wakes up in the morning and says, “I’m gonna kill me some firefighters today!” Most days, they just get away with it. Then, one day, they don’t.

            Of course, the first step is to tell the true story as Gary Olson has emphasized. Then, it should be easy to report unsafe practices and to take corrective actions. This last part is the hardest, as we have seen in the examples we’ve heard about other HS superintendents trying to correct Marsh. Marsh was getting away with it, and they had no real authority. ICs may never have observed the behavior directly, and, by golly, Marsh was getting the job done. Should Provencio have gone to Willis? Who? How can these situations be prevented?

            And, If we get another report that says everyone obeyed the rules but 3, 5, 19 kids died, we have to shout, “Change the rules!”

            Reply

            • I was wondering about FF unions as a way to promote safety. I noticed in the Twisp River OSHA report the ff’s were Union. Does anyone know anything about how unions figure into accident investigations?

              Reply

    • Hi WTKTT,

      According to the usda oig web site:

      Pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 and Section 1337 of the Agriculture and Food Act of 1981 (P.L. 97-98), OIG Investigations is the law enforcement arm of the Department, with Department-wide investigative jurisdiction. OIG Special Agents conduct investigations of significant criminal activities involving USDA programs, operations, and personnel, and are authorized to make arrests, execute warrants, and carry firearms. The types of investigations conducted by OIG Special Agents involve criminal activities such as frauds in subsidy, price support, benefits, and insurance programs; significant thefts of Government property or funds; bribery; extortion; smuggling; and assaults on employees. Investigations involving criminal activity that affects the health and safety of the public, such as meat packers who knowingly sell hazardous food products and individuals who tamper with food regulated by USDA, are also high-profile investigative priorities. In addition, OIG Special Agents are poised to provide emergency law enforcement response to USDA declared emergencies and suspected incidents of terrorism affecting USDA regulated industries, as well as USDA programs, operations, personnel, and installations, in coordination with Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies, as appropriate.

      This sure sounds like a criminal investigative unit. Moreover, it sounds like one that has no interest or expertise in wildland management or WUI fire suppression. This law was passed to handle one issue, the Thirty Mile Fire entrapment, and the OIG caught some flack from some (including John Maclean) for aggressively prosecuting only one person for the loss of those four souls. If Daniels was so obviously incompetent, the people who put him in charge should also be held to account, on up the chain. This law looks like a great opportunity for scapegoating, which is hardly better than the whitewashing we have now.

      USDA covers both the FS and OIG, so no independence there. OSHA should offer the best chance of relief, but OSHA is a joke, for miners, for oilfield workers, for factory workers, for farm workers, etc.

      I’d be interested to hear Marti Reed’s thoughts on this. The solution to chronic problems caused by predictable clusterf***s is not prosecution of low-level managers, not lawyering up, and not whitewashing the reality. What it is I don’t know, but those ways are not working.

      Reply

  86. The most recent article by JD and the corresponding posts have brought several things into even clearer focus for me, so I am going to opine once again on my favorite bone to chew on…the Battlement Creek Fire and more specifically…the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride.

    And to do that, I am going to highlight the disingenuous work of a person I really liked, but as we have said, I don’t have friends; I only have targets and potential targets…if you disagree with me. And that person is once again the most powerful and influential Director of Aviation and Fire Management for the USFS, the person who currently sits in that office in Vallejo, California, Shawna Legarza.

    Shawna was the point person who created the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride based on lies even though she was repeatedly told by both Dr. Ted Putnam and I that was exactly what she was doing, but she did continued to do it anyway. Did she get her current job because of her work on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, yes…at least in part.

    But more importantly, she showed her potential and willingness to serve as one of the “Grey People” and do whatever is necessary to promote the interests of the USFS over everything else which includes the safety of wildland firefighters. In fact, I am going to take this even one step further by alleging that Shawna is partly responsible for the deaths of the crew…and I can tell you why.

    I have already gone over this information but I am going to do it again with a laser like focus…I hope and explain what I see as the direct cause and effect relationship between Shawna’s work on that particular staff ride and the death of the crew.

    The primary official “lesson learned” from the Battlement Creek Staff Ride was the loss of situational awareness in that the two hotshot crews who were involved in the disaster did not know the location or the assignment of the other crew. Bob and I beat this issue to death earlier downstream on this thread so I don’t think I need to do that again in any great detail.

    I think it will suffice to say we knew exactly where the Mormon Lake Crew was and what they were doing because not only could we READ it in the shift plan (what the Woodsman calls the IAP and it does NOT take a qualified Plans Chief to prepare as he has said more than once, it CAN be done on a bar napkin) we could see them on the slope working above us. In addition, our respective crew bosses not only had the fire net radio but our home forest net radio with them at all times. The reverse was also true for the Mormon Lake Hotshots. Both crews were where the plan directed them to be, doing exactly what they were doing at the time the incident occurred.

    So the bottom line is this…the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride has been using that disaster to teach the WRONG lesson all of these years. Now…those who think this is OK, and Shawna is probably one of those people, probably do so because even though it was not the right lesson to be teaching, it also wasn’t a bad lesson. Yes…wildland firefighters should know where their adjoining forces are at all times and what they are doing so they don’t kill them. Who can argue with that?

    But…wouldn’t it have been more beneficial to teach the correct lessons that should have been learned from that fire for the last 40 years, especially since one of those lessons that should have been learned is directly related to the deaths of the crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire? And that lesson is of course to watch out for a crew boss who has a chip on his shoulder and feels like he always has something to prove with his crew by engaging in a continual effort to “One Up” all of the other hotshot crew with reckless and daring behavior.

    Darrell Willis told me himself that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. Don’t you think it might have been helpful for Willis to read what kind of crew boss Tony Czak was and what he did wrong to not only kill himself but two others as well, plus a fourth who was severely burned with third degree burns over most of his body? Maybe Willis could have recognized that quality in Marsh and even managed to associate Marsh’s nickname (One Up) with the potential of the same thing happening to his “sons.” And now don’t you think it might be helpful to possibly saving the lives of future wildland firefighters by linking the reckless behavior of Tony Czak with that of Eric Marsh to clearly demonstrate what CAN and HAS happened?

    And how about taking it even one step further and adding the reckless behavior of Gordon King from the El Cariso Hotshots who was responsible for the deaths of 12 of his crew on the Loop Fire Disaster of 1966? You probably remember from some of our earlier discussions that crew boss King took his crew into a narrow chute to build hand line above an uncontrolled fire when two other hotshot crews turned down the assignment because it was too dangerous.

    You know what they say; one time is an anomaly, two times is a coincidence, but three times is a pattern. Don’t you think it is about time for even the NWCG to be able to recognize this problem and take some steps to get a handle on the situation before we have a fourth time?

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on May 19, 2016 at 3:31 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> So the bottom line is this…the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride has
      >> been using that disaster to teach the WRONG lesson all of these
      >> years. Now…those who think this is OK, and Shawna is probably one
      >> of those people, probably do so because even though it was not the
      >> right lesson to be teaching, it also wasn’t a bad lesson. Yes…wildland
      >> firefighters should know where their adjoining forces are at all times
      >> and what they are doing so they don’t kill them. Who can argue with that?

      Not me. But the ASTOUNDING thing is that the ‘Shawna’ equivalents who have developed the Staff Ride for what is arguably the GREATEST ‘Blunder’ in the history of Wildland Firefighting aren’t bothering to teach anyone ANYTHING AT ALL.

      So forget about whether the ‘Lesson’ being taught is even the RIGHT one… how about teaching SOMETHING…. ANYTHING?

      >> Gary Olson also said…
      >>
      >> Don’t you think it is about time for even the NWCG to be able to
      >> recognize this problem and take some steps to get a handle on
      >> the situation before we have a fourth time?

      Ummmm… YEA. ( If I could add BOLDFACE and ITALICS… I would ).

      It’s now been confirmed that people who actually worked with Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were not the least bit surprised to learn they had finally burned themselves to death.

      That the organization was just an “accident waiting to happen”… and then the ‘waiting’ ended.

      That represents a SOLVABLE PROBLEM.

      Identify ANY other ‘accidents waiting to happen’ and shut them down… BEFORE it happens.

      Find OUT if any other inidviduals/organizations headed for the fireline also have indicative ‘nicknames’… and then find out WHY… and DO something about it.

      Reply

      • What’s REALLY tragic and beyond irony is that if what “One Up” ( Eric Marsh ) was really striving for was to make HIS organization “The Most Talked About Hotshot Crew in the History of Wildland Firefighting”… then he actually succeeded ( but in a horrific manner ).

        Reply

        • Adage time again.

          “Be careful what you wish for. Sometimes the Gods are hard of hearing”.

          Reply

      • Well…you have a point there. I guess that means we have been moving in the WRONG direction and the situation is actually getting worse and not better.

        Reply

        • Well… the USFS emails that John Dougherty diligently obtained and released now tell the same story.

          Let’s not go FORWARD ( into the light )… let’s go further BACKWARD ( into darkness and obfuscation and mendacity ).

          We can SEE now ( in the emails ) that what they were REALLY doing with the SAIT investigation was ‘test flying’ the new up-and-coming accident investigation approach that was already busily being authored by this mysterious little ‘braniac’ named Ivan Pupulidy who worked in some dark room there at the USFS Rocky Mountain Research Center ( RMRC ) and only got ‘let out’ when his BOSS, ( SAIT member and Directer of the RMRS John Phipps ) pulled the key from his pocket and would open the door.

          John Phipps was ON the SAIT ( officially ), but this mysterious more-degrees-than-you-shake-a-Pulaski-at Ivan Pupulidy was NOT.

          Yet now… in the emails… we see that Mike Dudley, John Phipps and the rest of the SAIT were ‘including’ Pupulidy on EVERYTHING… and that Pupulidy was, in fact, the primary AUTHOR of the SAIR “Nobody did anything wrong” narrative itself.

          They ( the SAIT ) were RELYING on him for the ‘narrative’… and he ( Pupulidy ) wasn’t even officially a member of the fucking SAIT at all.

          Here is one of the articles where the mysterious Ivan Pupulidy actually CALLED the writer ( Bill Gabbert ) and is seen admitting he is the ‘author’ of the shiny-new “Coordinated Response Protocol” ( CRP ) that is now the OFFICIAL replacement for the previous “Serious Accident Investigation Protocol” and is now going to be the “gold standard” for USFS ( and any State Forester ) when it comes to investigating FATALITIES on the fireline.

          NOTE: Pupulidy is so very much the source of “Nothing to see here, move along” that he even REMOVED the word ‘Accident’ from the title of his new protocol for investigating accidents.

          So we put it back in there for him.

          CRP is now aka ( also known as )
          “Coordinated Response Accident Protocol” – CRAP!

          Wildfire Today
          Article Title: USFS to use new serious accident review system
          Published: August 7, 2014 – by Bill Gabbert
          http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/08/07/usfs-to-use-new-serious-accident-review-system/

          To give you an idea how this mysterious brainiac Ivan Pulpify actually ‘thinks’… here are some of the words coming out of his own mouth about his new CRP ( CRAP ) accident investigation protocol that is now replacing the SAIT approach…

          —————————————————————————
          The U.S. Forest Service has created a new review process for serious incidents involving a fatality or three or more hospitalizations, called the Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP). According to the agency:

          USFS says…

          “The CRP is a process now being used to ensure we learn everything possible from serious incidents so we can prevent recurrence while reducing the painful effects on those closest to the incident”.

          “This new process minimizes traumatic impacts on witnesses, coworkers and others close to the tragedy while improving our ability to gather information and learn. The CRP replaces the Serious Accident Investigation with a new process called the Learning Review. The Learning Review is designed to create learning products for multiple audiences.”

          Ivan Pupulidy called us to say that he was the author of the new protocol. Presently he is the Acting Program Manager for Human Factors Risk Management Research Development and Application for the USFS’ Rocky Mountain Research Station. In September he will be the Director of the USFS’ new Office of Learning. Mr. Pupulidy said the agency no longer subscribes to the one-year old Interagency guide and explained that under the new system both versions of the reports will be published on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center website. When asked if the causes, conclusions, and observations would be included in the reports, he said they “will not include traditional nonsense”.
          —————————————————————————

          NOTE the LAST sentence…

          When asked if the CAUSES, CONCLUSIONS, and OBSERVATIONS would be INCLUDED in the reports, he ( Ivan Pupulidy ) said they “will NOT include traditional NONSENSE”.

          So, according to this ‘brainiac’ Pupulidy… doing things like finding out what the actual CAUSES of accidents are is simply “traditional nonsense”… and the USFS won’t ever be doing that anymore with HIS ‘new protocol’.

          This new CRP ( CRAP ) protocol is EXACTLY what was ‘on display’ when that preliminary TWISP River fatality report was released.

          Classic Pupulidy. “Nothing to see here… move along… move along”.

          That is now the OFFICIAL approach to ‘accident investigations’ for the U.S. Forestry Service and ( consequently ) for all State Forestry Divisions… since they are just gonna ‘do what the big boys do’ when wildland firefighters burn to death in THEIR workplaces.

          Reply

    • Gary,

      Darrell Willis told me himself that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. Don’t you think it might have been helpful for Willis to read what kind of crew boss Tony Czak was and what he did wrong to not only kill himself but two others as well, plus a fourth who was severely burned with third degree burns over most of his body? Maybe Willis could have recognized that quality in Marsh and even managed to associate Marsh’s nickname (One Up) with the potential of the same thing happening to his “sons.” And now don’t you think it might be helpful to possibly saving the lives of future wildland firefighters by linking the reckless behavior of Tony Czak with that of Eric Marsh to clearly demonstrate what CAN and HAS happened?

      Seeing this laid out in plain Anglo-Saxon words is both profoundly sad and exhilarating. Kudos

      Reply

    • This ordeal teaches little by way of the system that wants to present itself in good light even when it is in error. It will take the fellows that have had long experience with wild land fire fighting and investigations. I am glad to know Gary is working on completing one–his will give a view we have yet to see. Certainly the nuances of wild land fire fighting and safety issues need to be addressed from the wild land fire fighter view.

      Indeed, if I were aspiring to be a wild land fire fighter and wanted to know why those 19 men died and how I might avoid the same fate, then I would go to books written by those of long experience and wise understanding of the wild land fire fighting problems. It is entertaining to read other books perhaps—people like to know about personal histories–but when it comes to the brass tacks, those that have observed wild land fire fighting by experiencing it though many years are the ones I can respect concerning wild land methods and keeping the wild land fire fighter alivel

      We hope that along with Gary Olsen, Dr. Ted Putnam also would come in with articles and even a book if he sees the time. I know he is not happy with the way the Yarnell incident was handled and would add another perspective that young wild land fire fighters could benefit from. I do know neither of these men have any personal objective beyond improving conditions and addressing methods that keep the wild land fire fighter alive. Indeed it is a dangerous occupation–few could live up to its stresses and I understand that. Those that have can contribute most are those that have been there and though their years of experience know what works and what does not.

      Reply

  87. **
    ** THE PHOTO OF THE GLOBE DOC TYPE 2 CREW ( REDUX )
    **
    ** YOUTUBE AND GOOGLE+ USER ‘4490red’ IS GLOBE
    ** CORRECTIONS OFFICER ANTHONY CAULFIELD

    This is actually just a ‘Followup’ on a conversation thread from the previous chapter. Gary Olson initiated a discussion about that ‘Crew Photo’ that was taken in front of the ‘Yarnell’ sign at the Ranch House Restaurant on July 4, 2013.

    There is NO DOUBT now that this was a photo of the Arizona Department of Corrections ‘Globe Unit’ Type 2 DOC Crew that had shown up for work in Yarnell the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013 and remained working the Yarnell Hill Fire until July 4, 2013. They ‘demobbed’ the same day that photo was taken.

    See (new) details below.

    >> On May 2, 2016 at 7:41 pm, Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> Somebody just told me they think that might have been a Type II crew,
    >> but I thought I saw at least one of the Three Stooges in the photo?
    >>
    >> On May 4, 2016 at 7:07 pm, Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> It’s the Globe #1 Type 2 prison crew that was C-4 on the resource
    >> order and was assigned to the Yarnell Hill fire at 0700 on 6/30/13.
    >> GM IHC was C-5 and Blue Ridge was C-3.

    Here again is that photo of this Globe DOC Type 2 crew taken in front of the ‘Yarnell’ sign at the Ranch House Restaurant on July 4, 2013 that was ‘under discussion’ in the last chapter…

    https://plus.google.com/photos/110724344305143712029/albums/6038372134406111633/6038372137813459330?sqi=112727709127542996420&sqsi=5b593a30-4523-42d7-a892-d9f2e6ab9882&pid=6038372137813459330&oid=110724344305143712029

    This is a PUBLIC photo on Google+ user 4490red’s page.

    Caption on the photo…
    ——————————————————————-
    Google+ User: 4490red
    My Brothers. Remembering our 19 brothers that didn’t make it home that week.
    ——————————————————————-

    He ( 4490red ) posted it as a PUBLIC photo on the day it was taken… July 4, 2013… and it is assumed he ( 4490red ) is the one that took the picture of ‘his crew’ ( and now that we know what he looks like, he, in fact, does NOT appear to actually be in the photo itself ).

    In MARCH of last year… Arizona Department of Corrections published a shiny new ‘brochure’ about their entire DOC Wildland Firefighting program.

    That PUBLIC ‘brochure’ is HERE…

    The Arizona Department of Corrections
    ‘Directions’ – Volume 15, Issue 03 – Arizona DOC Director: Charles L. Ryan
    Arizona Department of Corrections Wildland Firefighting Brochure
    ADC SALUTES OUR WILDLAND FIREFIGHERS
    https://corrections.az.gov/sites/default/files/newsletters/directions_mar2015.pdf

    This PDF file has PICTURES of ALL of the Arizona Forestry sponsored DOC Wildland Crews and the ‘Corrections Officers’ who manage them.

    On PDF page 7 of this document is the section devoted to the ASP – Globe Wildland Fire Crew.

    NOTE: CO stands for ‘Corrections Officer’ in the photo captions.

    There is a good photo of CO’s Rush and ( Anthony ) Caulfield right there on PDF page 7 in this section regarding the Globe DOC Type 2 Crew, as well as a good photo of Globe DOC Type 2 Crew Superintendent Sergeant Paulsen.

    If you just look at the PHOTO that Google+ and YouTube user ‘4490red’ is using as his PUBLIC avatar on those PUBLIC websites… and compare it with this photo from the Arizona Department of Corrections… there is no doubt now that ‘4490red’ is actually Globe Corrections Officer Anthony Caulfield.

    Information about the Globe Type 2 DOC crew that was given to ADOSH by Arizona Forestry ( they would only supply ADOSH with the names of STAFF members, and not prison inmates )…

    NOTE: “CO” stands for “Corrections Officer”
    —————————————————————–
    Globe Type 2 Superintendent: Sgt. Paulson ( Cell Phone: xxxxxxxxxx )

    Globe Type 2 Staff…

    CO II Soto
    CO II Caulfield ( Anthony )
    CO II Gallion
    CO II Rush
    —————————————————————–

    So now that we can see PHOTOS of all of these men ( thanks to that new Arizona Department of Corrections PUBLIC brochure ) there’s no doubt now that at least SOME of these ‘names’ ARE there in that ‘Crew Photo’ taken at the Ranch House Restaurant on July 4, 2013.

    When comparing this photograph to the photos of all the Arizona DOC Wildland Fire Fighting crews in the document above… I believe I’m seeing the following…

    Globe DOC Type 2 Crew Superintendent Sgt. Paulson – That COULD be him there at the far left in the first row.

    CO II Soto – According to the Arizona DOC PUBLIC Brochure… by March of 2015, CO II Soto had been ‘reassigned’ from the Globe DOC Wildland Crew to the Florence DOC Wildland Crew. His photo is on PDF page 4 of the brochure with others on the Florence Crew. Based on that photo of Soto, I believe I’m seeing him in the Yarnell photo second from the right, kneeling, in the first row.

    CO II Anthony Caulfield ( Google+ and YouTube user 4490red ) – does not appear to be in the photo at all. Makes sense since he is the one that ‘posted’ it to his PUBLIC Google+ page and was most likely the one taking the photo on July 4, 2013.

    CO II Gallion – There is no photo of him ( nor is he listed anywhere ) in that Arizona DOC PUBLIC brochure. He may have left Arizona DOC by March of 2015 when that PUBLIC brochure was published.

    CO II Rush – Looks like him 3rd from the right, standing in the back row.

    Reply

    • WTKTT,

      I wonder where Corrections Officer Caulfield originally hails from – Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama by chance?

      We would have an idea of Globe #1’s operational assignment on 6/30/13 if we had a freakin’ IAP to refer to but since nobody at Yarnell seems to have believed that may have been prudent………….or the ‘proper’ single resource wasn’t on scene yet (Planning Section Chief) to fill one out (eyeroll)……..

      Someone will have to dissect the unit logs to have a chance on putting THAT puzzle piece together. What was Globe #1’s assignment on 6/30/13?

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • Reply to Woodsman post on May 18, 2016 at 9:56 pm

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> I wonder where Corrections Officer Caulfield originally hails
        >> from – Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama by chance?

        Good question I’ll see if I can find out.

        Ditto for Sergeant Paulson. He actually LOOKS like a ‘Lousiana man’.

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> We would have an idea of Globe #1’s operational assignment
        >> on 6/30/13 if we had a freakin’ IAP to refer to but since nobody
        >> at Yarnell seems to have believed that may have been
        >> prudent………….or the ‘proper’ single resource wasn’t on scene
        >> yet (Planning Section Chief) to fill one out (eyeroll)……..
        >>
        >> Someone will have to dissect the unit logs to have a chance
        >> on putting THAT puzzle piece together.

        Actually… no. YouTube User ‘4490red’ ( CO Anthony Caulfield ) is the one who actually posted those FOUR videos he took on Sunday, June 30, 2013 to his PUBLIC Youtube account not long after the tragedy.

        He even NAMED all four of the videos as follows…

        Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 1
        Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 2
        Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 3
        Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 4

        The moment he realized ( or was notified ) that we were actually discussing these videos of his here on this forum… he REMOVED them from his ‘4490red’ Youtube account… but not before I already had figured out EXACTLY where he was when he took each video and I already had complete transcripts of all the background radio traffic he captured while filming his videos.

        In a nutshell… here is where each of the videos was taken, which tells us where his ‘Globe Type II Crew’ was actually working at various times that day…

        * Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 1

        A video of two of the VLAT drops on the north end of the fire taken from where he and the Globe crew were working most of the day… doing ‘structure protection’ prep work on homes in the Peeples Valley community itself, NORTH of the ICP and the Model Creek Road area.

        * Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 2

        Late afternoon work in the same general area they were assigned for most of the day… structure prep around various outlying homes in Peeples Valley.

        * Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 3

        This one was taken about 20 minutes after the deployment… and it shows the Globe Type II crew actually ‘staged’ in the parking lot of the U-Store-It facility just at the north end of Yarnell proper.

        It’s interesting to note that YES… they WERE actually there at the north end of Yarnell on or about the time of the deployment.

        In this video… we see the first VLAT drop taking place after the deployment, when Thomas French decided there wasn’t anything else ‘Bravo 33’ could do related to the deployment and he decided to go “back to work” with the VLAT and pilot “Kevin”. The VLAT drop was ‘extending the line’ to the north of town that had been started by some SEAT drops just shortly before the deployment.

        * Yarnell Hill Fire 6_30_2013 Globe Type II Crew – Video 4

        This was actually the FIRST video that ‘4490red’ shot that Sunday in Yarnell. He shot it from the Driver’s seat of one of the Globe support vehicles, parked in that empty lot just EAST of the Yarnell Fire Station. That’s where Globe had been told to ‘stage’ that morning. The time on the video was about 10:00 AM… and this is the video where he captured Eric Marsh on the radio making a call to Operations.
        Marsh was still identifying himself on the radio using the callsign ‘Granite Mountain’… because Marsh didn’t ‘officially’ become ‘DIVSA’ until about 10:30 AM, when the fire officially transitioned from Russ Shumate over to IC Roy Hall.

        It’s not known how long the Globe crew was just sitting there in that empty lot by the Yarnell Fire Station… but when they did get an ‘assignment’ it was all the way to the NORTH doing ‘structure protection’ on outlying homes in the Peeples Valley community.

        >> Woodsman also said…
        >>
        >> What was Globe #1’s assignment on 6/30/13?

        See above. Just based on 4490red’s own videos…

        Morning – Staged in empty lot just EAST of Yarnell Fire Station.
        Late Morning – Structure Protection on outlying homes in Peeples Valley.
        Early afternoon – Same.
        Late afternoon – Suddenly we see them ‘staged’ at the U-Store-It facility there at the north end of the town of Yarnell itself… filming the first VLAT drop after the deployment.

        Actually… I just went back and searched the Chapters to find where all this information about the “Globe Type II Crew” videos was originally posted.

        See this post from back in December of 2013 for the EXACT places where ‘4490red’ was STANDING when he shot all four of his videos that day…

        ** FINALIZED GPS COORDINATES FOR ALL FOUR
        ** GLOBE TYPE II CREW VIDEOS FROM THE YARNELL FIRE
        http://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-divison-fined-nearly-560000-for-mistakes-in-managing-yarnell-hill-fire-that-killed-19-hotshot/#comment-6011

        That post still actually has 4490red’s OWN captions and text that he had posted along with the videos explaining WHERE he and his Globe Type 2 crew were for each video… and what they were doing. It all matches what I just said.

        And from all the way back in ‘Chapter 1’ of this ongoing discussion… here is where I first talked about finding the ‘4490red’ Globe Type II Crew videos… and also posted the TRANSCRIPTS of the background radio traffic captured in them…

        ** BACKGROUND RADIO TRAFFIC HEARD IN THE ‘4490red’ VIDEOS
        http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-3657

        Reply

      • Woodsman–Plenty people were disregarded in this investigation–especially Prison Crews since they seem to be an easy source of information to eliminate. One prison crew actually did defensible space around our cabin in Yarnell after the fire. We learned from them that they also knew about and witnessed the helicopter with water bag that was told to stand down on Saturday morning while the fire was still in its initial stages and might have been contained with enough effort even that late in the game. ‘There is a time stamp photo of that copter with a view of Chuck Tidey’s back talking to one of the pilots. It seems that would have a report and if it could have been used an explanation of why it wasn’t. But then here we go again and it has been like pulling teeth to get the facts out.

        Then I think that perhaps there is an explanation when we get FOIA information posted and the many lines and even many pages of redaction so that the public is deprived of what their tax dollars paid investigators to reveal. This should be unheard of in these types investigations–to my way of thinking the redactors should be redacted so we can get the straight of the story instead of bunk designed to protect reputaions..

        Reply

  88. Well…it certainly seems Jd has been very busy while I tried to have a few relaxing days of R&R after working on the highly acclaimed and much anticipated book that I MAY now finish because they (and you know who you are) have really pissed me off.

    But now…JD has added months and months of labor to my job with all of these emails. I am going to share with you what I have written so far, so you can keep track of my progress.

    “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters”

    Chapter 1 – Death of the Crew

    “The hikers made an unlikely pair of June 30, 2013, as the old married couple. Tex is old and Joy is married so they are the old married couple…get it?”

    Well…that’s it. How do you like it so far?

    And I have proven once again the old adage is definitely true. “If you fuck with the BULL; sometimes you get the HORN!”

    There I was…on the very cusp of greatness with the IPhone rolling. Riding my 800 pound quad like a bat out of hell with Lucifer himself on my tail comin’ in hot to ride the crest of a huge bowl of sand like a golden California surfer, except I’m not golden, I’m grey and it wasn’t the ocean, it was sand, but you’re pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down, I’m quite sure.

    Suddenly…my magnificent machine took a bad bounce on an unseen hole in the hard packed sand from the recent rain throwing me up and out of the saddle as I lost control of the roaring beast.

    Did I wave off…stop my run and come around again in that split second that sometimes exists between life and death? Hell no…I can’t think that fast! So I still tried to turn and make the corner as I was programmed to do and that is when things really went to hell in a hand basket and the rest is history.

    So…to everyone who said to either me or themselves, if Gary (YOU) keep fuckin’ around on that quad he (YOU) is (are) going to get hurt and maybe even killed!” All of YOU people can say…”I told you so you stupid fuck!”

    But true to my nature after my “friends” stopped laughing their asses off and rolled that machine off of me AND gravity finally put the engine oil back to where it was supposed to be in order for the machine to be restarted, I did what every good cowboy who gets bucked off his horse does, I got right back up in the saddle and I had a good…no…a GREAT ride!

    God Bless America! Another happy ending to what could have been a great disaster, the loss of my typing ability!

    Reply

    • Dear Crazy Uncle Gary,

      I’m so glad you didn’t manage to kill yourself on your quad. Can’t afford to lose Ye Olde Magnificent Bastard quite yet. If your head is not spinning enough from all the new information coming out, may I introduce you to Mr. John Dougherty’s Greatest Hits, Keep on Coming, Volume: “Oh Hell, That’s Gonna Leave a Mark” Version 7.0:

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/#comment-335882

      HERE COMES THE BOOM!

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • That’s a great article just posted ( hours ago? ) by John Dougherty.

        He ( John ) doesn’t just ‘detail’ the David Provencio emails where Provencio was trying to tell Mike Dudley ( and the SAIT ) that he had actual EVIDENCE of Eric Marsh’s penchant for taking unnecessary RISKS…

        John Dougherty has now actually INTERVIEWED David Provencio himself.

        David Provencio totally CONFIRMS the emails he sent to Mike Dudley… and gives even MORE detail in his interview with John.

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions

        Just a small excerpt from John Dougherty’s new article and his actual INTERVIEW with former Geronimo Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio…

        ———————————————————————-
        Marsh, Provencio said, had quickly developed a reputation for pushing his crew to outperform other hotshot crews. By 2009, other hotshot crew superintendents began derisively referring to Marsh as “One Up” because of his attitude.

        “His mentality was that when you came into a situation, a fire, an assignment…we are going to one up” any other crew that was working along side, Provencio said. “We are going to bust our asses, go down into the ugliest, most dangerous situation, we will show these guys we’re not pussies.”

        “It was sad the way his mindset was,” Provencio said. “That’s the way he worked. I didn’t like that.”

        Granite Mountain’s reputation was well known and a lot of crews, including his own, didn’t want to work with Marsh and his crew, Provencio said.

        “I hoped I didn’t end up on the same piece of line as them,” he said.

        In October 2013 a group of hotshot supervisors went to the Yarnell Hill fire fatality site and went over the scenario they believe led to the tragedy, Provencio said.

        The hotshot superintendents concluded that the Yarnell Hill disaster was one that many of them saw coming for years. The crew, under Marsh’s leadership, had been lucky until June 30 because it had survived a series of bad leadership decisions.

        “This shit shouldn’t have ever happened,” one hotshot supervisor said during the gathering of those who best know how a hotshot crew should safely operate.
        ———————————————————————-

        Reply

        • Just a couple of quick comments.

          I. I am no longer “That Guy”. The man who now holds that title is David Provencio, a man that has the courage to tell it like it is…publicly and stand behind it with his real name.

          2. I like to think that both David and Fred meant to say what I have always said, the GMIHC are not American heroes because they died on the Yarnell Hill Fire, but they are American heroes because they went to fight the Yarnell Hill Fire in the first place.

          Reply

          • Gary–finally we have Fred and Provencio backing what you have been publicly saying along with plenty others of good standing and for so long-only they had not done so publicly (as far as I can tell) stated their feelings as you had. Well if they wanted to stay private it is too late–JD cured that one. I do believe in this new age of fact finding computers plenty more people will come forth with the truth. Marsh and Steed are on the hot plate–but deservedly so. They were responsible for the 17 young people under their command as someone or several in the chain of command were responsible for the actions of Marsh and Steed.

            Reply

      • I LOVED what you wrote, and I responded to it.

        Yes, the GMHS were drifting rogue, in dangerous ways, but so has the whole entire system. A last minute Hail Mary Plan that an OPS was in on (the evidence of which was carefully folded into a sealed envelop that was then locked into a BIG filing cabinet) ???

        An Incident Command System that has a Structural Battalion Chief involved in allowing/ordering Forest Service Wildland Firefighters going into a dangerous canyon to “protect” evacuated structures and then dying on the Twisp River Wildfire (the truth of which will most likely not be written up in whatever Final Report comes out of that debacle).

        Houston…………….We have a Problem.

        Reply

    • Hey Crazy Uncle Gary!

      You’ll probably not want to hear this (since I was a Prescott College student — many of which you disdain). I was thrown, at a full rollicking gallop, from a horse into a big hunking redwood tree near Sequoia NP, and knocked out. When I came to, our Director first made sure I hadn’t broken my back, and then made me get back on the horse, and continue our jumping course. My back was in shreds but I finished it.

      I raised a competitive figure skater who, no matter what happened (including a broken ankle, a cut-off fingertip, and 14 stitches over her eyebrow) learned how to pick herself up and keep going and keep competing, and now is an Urban Planner for the City of Albuquerque (long story).

      Getting back in the game after a disastrous failure (after fricken learning the lessons from that) is the Name of the Game. KUDOS.

      Now we need to figure out how to make our agencies that are managing wildfires figure out how to do that. While also figuring out how to make people building houses in places that wildfires are going to burn do that also.

      Namaste.

      Reply

      • Well..it figures that a spoiled rich kid who graduated from Prescott College after four years of contemplating how the world should work and then grading themselves on how well they did would be riding a horse with an instructor in the Sequoia National Park while us inbred hillbilly redneck local yocals in Prescuit (which rhymes with biscuit when the locals say it) were struggling to get ahead by attending night classes at Yavapai College because we has to slop the hogs during all daylight hours.

        And I have apologized to you before for getting after you for saying the system is systematically broken and needs to be fixed. I told you that they system was working just fine expect for some anomalies and that was what the Yarnell Hill Fire was…an aberration and that we just had to change how you viewed the system.

        Well…I was wrong and Otis is right…”The god damn plane has crashed into the mountain…and in a BIG way.”

        In addition my new spokesperson is Muzzy who “gets it.” Muzzy said in part, “Finally, was Willis responsible months and years before the incident for muddling the mission of the crew to include more structure work for which they had no plan, no equipment, no training? Were Willis’s words rattling around in Marsh’s head as he demanded the crew to move out of the black? Did they echo in the heads of the crew as they acquiesced to the demand? Are those the same words we heard falling out of Willis’s mouth at the presser he did at the site days after the event?”

        So…I will ask again, “How is it possible that Darrell Willis did NOT know about Eric Marsh’s penchant for making poor life decisions after his actions on the Clear Creek Fire? And now I will ask, “How is it possible that Darrell Willis did NOT know about Eric Marsh’s nickname which apparently was, “One Up”?

        If you back and read what I said about Tony Czak who was the crew boss of the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire, you will see that his nickname should have been “One Up.”

        So now for the really BIG QUESTION! How is it possible that Darrell Willis does not share a great deal of the blame for the deaths of the crew?

        Reply

  89. **
    ** THE RELEASE OF ALL 21 OF AARON HULBURD’S VIDEOS

    All the TOP BRASS at U.S. Forestry AND Arizona Forestry were in on this one.

    **** Cast of characters…

    * Dramatis Personae – U.S. Forestry Service

    Tom Harbour – The highest grand-pooba mucky-muck in the U.S. Forestry Service National Director, Fire and Aviation Management HQ, U.S. Forest Service, Washington DC Office.

    Dan Olsen – National Deputy Director, Fire and Aviation, U.S. Forestry Service. Actually replaced Tom Harbour as Acting Director after Mr. Harbour retired in January of 2016.

    Steve Hattenbach – LAWYER with the ‘Office of General Counsel’ ( OGC ) at the ‘United States Department of Agriculture’ ( USDA ). He is the actual ‘author’ of the ‘talking points’ that were needed by USFS and Arizona Forestry prior to releasing Aaron Hulburd’s videos. He was ( that that time ) also U.S. Forest Service Acting Director of Public Affairs for the Southwestern Region.

    Jennifer Jones – APR Public Affairs Specialist – U.S. Forest Service Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management, National lnteragency Fire Center

    Bill Van Bruggen – U.S Forestry Director of Fire and Aviation Management ( FAM ) for the Southwestern Region.

    Patricia Hirami – Aviation and Fire Management Director – United States National Forest Service 626 E Wisconsin Ave, Milwaukee, WI 53202-4616. Associate Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry, U.S. Forestry Service.

    Mike Dudley – USFS employee and Co-Leader of the Yarnell Hill SAIT investigation.

    * Dramatis Personae – Arizona Forestry

    Scott Hunt: The highest grand-pooba mucky-muck in Arizona Forestry. The Arizona State Forester in 2013. Yarnell happened on his watch.

    Jerry Payne: The Arizona Assistant Deputy State Forester in 2013. This is the guy that told the media, shortly after the Yarnell tragedy, that it seemed perfectly obvious there were serious violations of LCES and the 10&18 in Yarnell… and got his ass reamed for saying that. He didn’t lose his job over that frap, however. He is STILL an ‘Assistant Deputy State Forester’ for Arizona, but now works for the new Arizona State Forester, Jeff Whitney, who was appointed by Governor Doug Ducey after he outsed former AZ Governor Jan Brewer.

    Carrie Dennet: Public Information Officer ( PIO ) for Arizona State Forestry.

    ** ACT 1 – SCENE 1

    When John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA submitted a specific FOIA request to the U.S. Forestry Service for what we had already ‘figured out’ here on this forum most likely existed ( MORE videos shot in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd ), U.S. Forestry knew there was no way they were going to be able to continue to HIDE the fact that all these Aaron Hulburd videos really had been ‘in their possession’ since immediately following the Yarnell incident.

    So they KNEW they were going to have to respond to John Dougherty’s FOIA, but they then concocted a ‘scheme’ to try and at least stay ‘in control’ of how and when these videos would be made available to the PUBLIC.

    They decided they would make it ‘look like’ Arizona Forestry itself had ALSO submitted an FOIA to U.S. Forestry for ALL of the same ‘Aaron Hulburd’ videos… and they would then coordinate the ‘release’ of the Hulburd videos with their ‘partner’… Arizona Forestry.

    And they would make sure they ‘responded’ to the (concocted) Arizona Forestry FOIA request BEFORE fulfilling the one from InvestigativeMEDIA… so that they could “get out ahead of the story” and at least be sure all MEDIA links to the videos and all MSM media queries about them were being directed back to what LOOKED like the ‘source’ of their release… and a place they could CONTROL. Arizona Forestry ( and not InvestigativeMEDIA ).

    NOTE: And that strategy actually WORKED. When they MSM immediately ‘picked up the story’ of the videos being released… all the MSM links were back to the page on the Arizona Forestry Server that had been ‘whipped up’ to make the videos available… and the fact that the ORIGINAL FOIA request that had forced all this to happen came from John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA got ‘lost in the noise’… just like they hoped it would.

    But U.S. Forestry ALSO now knew that regardless of them being able to at least make it LOOK like the videos were being ‘released’ by Arizona Forestry… the MEDIA was probably going to ask some pretty obvious questions ( you know those pesky MEDIA people! ).

    You know… simple, calm questions like…

    “Why the FUCK are we only NOW hearing about the existence of these videos… a YEAR AFTER the damn ‘Investigation’???”

    and… you know… other simple, calm questions like…

    “What the FUCK ELSE are you STILL HIDING?”

    So the USFS Washington Office now started ‘looking upstream’ for the best legal advice they could find in order to start covering their asses on the questions most likely to come once these Hulburd videos were released ( from any source ).

    ‘Upstream’ for U.S. Forestry Service is the ‘parent company’… the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Specifically… the “Office of General Counsel” ( OGC ) for the “U.S Department of Agriculture” ( USDA ).

    That’s where they found lawyer Steve Hattenbach.

    So USFS asked USDA Lawyer Hattenbach to come up with the ‘talking points’ ( and legal sounding responses ) they needed to handle what was about to happen.

    He ( Hattenbach ) was more than happy to oblige.

    And here is exactly what USDA Lawyer Steve Hattenbach came up with for them…

    THE STEVE HATTENBACH ‘TALKING POINTS’ AND POSSIBLE Q/A
    —————————————————————————-
    OGC = “Office of General Counsel” ( LAWYERS ).
    USDA = “United States Department of Agriculture”.

    On Oct 31, 2014, at 2:17 AM,
    “Hattenbach, Steve – OGC” wrote:

    My proposed version is this:

    The Serious Accident Investigation Team was convened by the State of Arizona with the objective, outlined in the Delegation of Authority, of providing a factual report for accident prevention. The primary purpose of serious accident investigations is to learn about causal factors to reduce the risk of similar incidents occurring in the future. It is the Forest Service understanding that a large quantity of information was collected from various sources, including many hours of video footage, not all of which was relevant to the scope of the Serious Accident Investigation. Information provided to the Serious Accident Investigation Team included videos shot by Forest Service firefighters. The Forest Service understands that the Serious Accident Investigation Team and investigators working under their direction reviewed ALL of the videos and only found ONE to be informative to the questions posed for the investigation. That video was previously released to the public. The additional videos which were not found to be informative to the issue of causal factors and accident prevention and were not retained as part of the investigation files. The State of Arizona recently requested copies of the remaining videos, and subsequently several other individuals made similar requests.

    Q. Why weren’t the videos provided earlier?

    A. The Serious Accident Investigation Team and investigators working under their direction reviewed all of the videos and only found one to be informative to the questions posed for the investigation. The additional videos were not retained as part of the investigation files. These videos were not requested previously, but once they were requested they were promptly released.

    Q. Who knew about these tapes, when?

    A. These videos were provided to the Serious Accident Investigation Team when they were conducting the investigation during the summer of 2013.

    Q. Was the U.S. Forest Service hiding these tapes?

    A. No. The videos were provided to the Serious Accident Investigation Team and the Forest Service released them promptly when recently requested.

    Q. What else are you hiding?

    A. The U.S. Forest Service has double checked for the presence of any further documentation or information and is not aware at this time of any additional materials that have not been provided to the State and the public.

    Q. Who took these videos? Can we talk to them?

    A. Due to pending litigation the Forest Service declines to offer any employees for interviews on this subject. Individuals and organizations that are interested in obtaining any further documents may file a Freedom of Information Request.

    Steve Hattenbach
    Acting Director, Public Affairs
    Southwestern Region, Forest Service
    333 Broadway Boulevard, SE
    505-842-3290 office
    505-828-1838 cell
    —————————————————————————-

    So the entire basis for these ‘talking points’ ( as per USDA Lawyer Steve Hattenbach ) was for U.S. Forestry to just basically “tell the tuth”. That they had ALWAYS had ALL of these now-being released USFS Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd videos in their possession… and they HAD ‘immediately’ also supplied ALL of them to Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAIT team that had been charged with investigating the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    That’s enough CYA to handle this pesky “Freedom of the Press” and the equally pesky “Freedom of Information” CRAP that’s always cramping our style, right?

    Wrong.

    I guess what even this Indiana State University trained lawyer didn’t realize is that by making THAT the basis for the ‘talking points’… they ( US Foresty and Arizona Forestry together ) were also automatically admitting that this was all another ‘dog and pony’ show, and that there was no actual REASON for ‘Arizona Forestry’ to (supposedly) be making an FOIA request to USFS for 21 videos they were also now going to have to ADMIT ( as per Steve’s talking points ) they actually ALWAYS HAD.

    Brilliant, Steve.

    The only ‘out’ he left there was the equally absurd notion that even though the SAIT always had ALL of these videos… that they then somehow ‘fell behind the filing cabinet’ and never actually made it over to ADOSH ( with whom they were legally required to share evidence with ) OR from the subcontracted SAIT team’s evidence folders over to Arizona Forestry along with ALL the other evidence the SAIT was legally REQUIRED to deliver to them.

    ** ACT 1 – SCENE 2

    After they ( USFS ) had received these ‘talking points’ and some ‘suggested’ responses from USDA Lawyer Steve Hattenbach, USFS needed someone they could trust to coordinate the ‘dog and pony’ with Arizona Forestry.

    Bill Van Bruggen got ‘tagged’ to handle that.

    Bill Van Bruggen is U.S Forestry Director of Fire and Aviation Management ( FAM ) for the Southwestern Region.

    Bill Van Bruggen then went ‘straight to the top’ at Arizona Forestry with these shiny new ‘talking points’.

    He sent them directly to Arizona Forester Scott Hunt, Arizona Deputy Forester Jerry Payne, and their favorite Arizona Forestry PR person, Carrie Dennet.

    Bill Van Bruggen of USFS wanted ‘comments’ back from Hunt, Payne and Dennet
    RIGHT AWAY ( same day ).

    Here is that email… ( he attached Hattenbach’s shiny new ‘talking points’ )…

    ————————————————————————-
    From: VanBruggen, Bill -FS
    Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 17:17:11 +0000
    To: Scott Hunt (ScottHunt (at) azsf.gov); jerrypayne (at) azsf.gov; CarrieDennett (at) azsf.gov
    Subject: FW: Revised Draft Statement/Q&As

    Scott/Jerry/Carrie: Scott you may know that we are preparing media talking points with the FOIA release of the Yarnell videos. Since we refer to the SAIT in our response, its important to us that we get your review of this (highlighted in yellow below) and any comments. Hoping for something back today if possible. Thank you. Please call if any questions/concerns.

    BILL VAN BRUGGEN Director, FAM ( Fire and Aviation Management )
    SW Region
    505-842-3206
    520-437-9087

    ** In Reply to message from Steve Hattenbach…

    I sent to OC and OGC just now – requesting review today.
    Bill if you want to share with Scott that’s fine.

    Steve Hattenbach
    Acting Director, Public Affairs
    Southwestern Region, Forest Service
    333 Broadway Boulevard, SE
    505-842-3290 office
    505-828-xxxx cell
    —————————————————————————

    See the next ‘Reply’ for the rest of the ’emails’….

    Reply

    • ** ACT 1 – SCENE 3

      The rest of the emails showing showing all the ‘players’ reviewing USDA Lawyer Steve Hattenbach’s ‘talking points’ and ‘good sounding responses’ with regards to the upcoming release of ALL of the Aaron Hulburd videos.

      Highlights below includes USFS PIO Jennifer Jones being “Sho ’nuff glad we got us a LAWYER here in ‘da house’!”

      —————————————————————————
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 8:00 AM
      To: VanBruggen, Bill -FS; Harbour, Tom -FS; Hattenbach, Steve – OGC
      Cc: Hirami, Patricia -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: RE: Revised Draft Statement/Q&As

      Thanks Bill! Steve/Bill if you could get any revisions from Benny/Scott back to me I would be happy to take the lead in working with WO OC if that would be helpful but if you all want to do that, that’s fine too, just let me know, thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-xxxx
      —————————————————————————

      —————————————————————————-
      From: VanBruggen, Bill -FS
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 7:55 AM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS; Harbour, Tom -FS; Hattenbach, Steve – OGC Cc: Hirami, Patricia -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: RE: Revised Draft Statement/Q&As

      I’II take the lead on sending to state if that works for all. Do that this morning as soon as I visit with Steve
      —————————————————————————-

      Here is where Jennifer Jones is “Sho ’nuff glad we got us a LAWYER here in ‘da house’!”

      —————————————————————————-
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 7:37 AM
      To: Harbour, Tom -FS; Hattenbach, Steve – OGC
      Cc: VanBruggen, Bill -FS; Hirami, Patricia -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: RE: Revised Draft Statement/Q&As

      Works for me, sure am glad we have a lawyer in the house!
      Steve, can you please send to Benny Young for review/approval
      and do you want to send it to Scott Hunt or would you like for me to do that?

      It would be good if we could get a read from Benny/Scott in the next couple of hours so that we can start working with WO OC/USDA QC-thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-xxxx
      —————————————————————————-

      And here comes the grand-pooba mucky-muck of the U.S. Forestry himself ‘chming in’ and approving lawyer Steve Hattenbach’s CYA for the release of the Hulburd videos…

      This also shows that Tom Harbour was also already fully aware of the TIME SCHEDULE for the ‘dog and pony’ and Tom Harbour already knew the planned release date for the Hulburd videos was going to be the upcoming Monday…

      —————————————————————————-
      From: Harbour, Tom -FS
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 7:19 AM
      To: Hattenbach, Steve – OGC
      Cc: Jones, Jennifer E -FS; VanBruggen, Bill -FS; Hirami, Patricia -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Re: Revised Draft Statement/Q&As

      good thinking — I concur w Steve’s thinking — assume between JJ and Steve we will send a “cleaned up” version to Scott for the AZ DOF to look at — would be best to have us all aligned prior to issuance of the videos on Monday —

      Tom Harbour
      Director, Fire and Aviation Management HQ,
      US Forest Service, Washington DC Office 202-205-1483
      —————————————————————————-

      That’s pretty much it ( probably proving once again that this FOIA response itself from USFS is ‘incomplete’ and we are still not seeing all the emails they have in their possession even related to this coordinated release of the Hulburd videos ).

      We also still do NOT see ANY of the emails that must exist regarding the original acquisition of the Aaron Hulburd videos themselves.

      It is ‘not credible’ that there wouldn’t have been some ‘correspondence’ generated when their own Prescott National Forest employee informed them ( somehow? ) that he even HAD them in his possession.

      I don’t believe that Aaron Hulburd flew to Washington in the middle of the night and left a basket full of 21 videos on the door stoop of the U.S. Forestry office.

      The emails we CAN see indicate they ( USFS ) knew EXACTLY who took these videos, how they came into their possession, and then how they were subsequently immediately delivered ( according to them ) to Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT team.

      WHERE are the EMAILS covering even THAT original ‘information exchange’?

      Reply

      • Followup…

        Just for gags… here is a BIO for that USDA lawyer ( Steve Hattenbach ) who was the actual ‘author’ of the CYA ‘talking ponts’ and Q/A for USFS in advance of their ‘dog and pony’ show surrounding the release of all 21 of Aaron Hulburd’s videos…

        All of his ‘degrees’ ( undergraduate and graduate ) came from Indiana State University. He went for a co-major of History and Anthropology for his undergraduate work… and then decided to become a ‘lawyer’ and stayed right where he was ( Indiana State University ) to get THOSE degrees…

        Steve Hattenbach’s profile at LAWYER.COM…
        https://www.lawyer.com/steve-hattenbach.html
        —————————————————————————
        Steve Hattenbach – General Practice
        Law Office: Usda Office Of General Counsel
        Albuquerque, New Mexico.
        Staus: In good standing.
        ——————————————————————————-
        Steve Hattenbach is the Chair of the Natural Resources, Energy, and Environmental Law Section of the New Mexico State Bar. Mr. Hattenbach has been in practice for ten years and currently works for the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Office of General Counsel in Albuquerque, New Mexico, primarily representing the U.S. Forest Service in a range of areas including NEPA and ESA compliance, natural resources, cultural resources, wate rights and water quality. Mr. Hattenbach was formerly with the Rodey Law firm for one and a half years where he primarily practiced environmental and water law. Mr. Hattenbach was an attorney with the New Mexico Environment Department for five years where he represented the state in various areas of state and federal environmental law. He also spent two and a half years as a staff attorney with the New Mexico Public Regulation Commission working in the areas of utility and renewable energy issues. Mr. Hattenbach received a double B.A. in History and Anthropology from Indiana University in 1993. Mr. Hattenbach also graduated from Indiana University in 1997 with a J.D. and an M.P.A. with a concentration in environmental management.
        ———————————————————————————-

        Reply

    • ** HAMMER, BOOM…

      Let’s take a CLOSE look at the hot-runny bullshit that USDA Lawyer Steve Hattenbach came up with for the U.S. Forestry Service in order to help them pull off their ‘dog and pony’ release of the Aaron Hulburd videos.

      His ‘deliverable’ to U.S. Forestry was actually TWO different things.

      1. A proposed ‘press release’ to use in association with this ‘sudden’ release of evidence related to the Yarnell Hill Fire that had always been in U.S Forestry’s possession.

      2. A proposed list of ‘Questions’ that were probably going to be asked by the MEDIA… and some good “How to cover your ass on those” responses.

      Let’s start with (1)… the ‘Press Release’ part and ‘break it down’…

      Hattenbach starts out like this…

      —————————————————————————-
      OGC = “Office of General Counsel” ( LAWYERS ).
      USDA = “United States Department of Agriculture”.

      On Oct 31, 2014, at 2:17 AM,
      “Hattenbach, Steve – OGC” wrote:

      My proposed version is this:

      The Serious Accident Investigation Team was convened by the State of Arizona with the objective, outlined in the Delegation of Authority, of providing a factual report for accident prevention. The primary purpose of serious accident investigations is to learn about causal factors to reduce the risk of similar incidents occurring in the future.
      ——————————————————————————

      Okay… so far, so good. Sounds GOOD, right?

      Like a lawyer really earning his paycheck, right?

      Forget the fact that the SAIR was no such thing… and that Mike Dudley and Jim Karels didn’t even DELIVER the ‘Management’ report that was also part of the ‘contract’. They ONLY delivered a ‘Learning Lessons’ document… just like John Phipps and Ivan Pupulidy TOLD them to.

      It still SOUNDS good, though, which is all that Hattenbach was being asked to do… and Hattenbach’s only REAL purpose in typing that first part was to ‘set up’ the REST of his ‘press release’… which was how to explain WHY Arizona Forestry only released ONE Aaron Hulburd video when it got hit with that other ‘Arizona Open Records’ request back in 2013.

      He needed to establish this ‘primary purpose is to learn about causal factors’ thing in order to support the claim he was now ABOUT to make about how the SAIT looked at ALL of the Hulburd videos… but like ‘good shoppers’… he wants us to believe they only chose ONE of the TWENTY ONE videos to ‘keep’… like they were playing cards and just threw the other TWENTY VIDOES onto the ‘discard pile’.

      And Hattenbach then wastes no time taking the next step towards making THAT claim.

      —————————————————————————————–
      It is the Forest Service understanding that a large quantity of information was collected from various sources, including many hours of video footage, not all of which was relevant to the scope of the Serious Accident Investigation.
      —————————————————————————————–

      He’s good. See what he’s ‘building’ there ( like a good little lawyer )?

      He’s ‘building’ the case that it would be absolutely NORMAL for this SAIT investigation to ‘disregard’ anything THEY decided was “not relevant to the scope”.

      Now he goes for the MAIN point he wants USFS and Arizona Forestry to make in order to “Cover their assess”…

      EMPHASIS in next paragraph is MINE…
      —————————————————————————————–
      Information provided to the Serious Accident Investigation Team included videos shot by Forest Service firefighters. The Forest Service understands that the Serious Accident Investigation Team and investigators working under their direction reviewed ALL OF THE VIDEOS and ONLY found ONE to be INFORMATIVE to the questions posed for the investigation. That video WAS previously released to the public.
      —————————————————————————————–

      Volia! There we go. Perfect explanation for WHY, when Arizona Forestry was hit with their own ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests back in 2013 that only ONE VIDEO shot by Aaron Hulburd ‘popped to the surface’.

      It’s because the SAIT looked at ALL of the videos… and they DECIDED that only ONE out of the TWENTY ONE had anything on it that THEY were interested in… or that had ANY information on it relevant to what happened in Yarnell that day… and they then just took the other TWENTY VIDEOS out into the parking lot and set them on fire.

      Forget the fact that even the video named M2U00264 ( prior to the deployment radio traffic one ) clearly had Gary Cordes telling Tyson Esquibel to send engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch and ends with Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown pulling up to the “Three Prescotteers” Jason Clawson and Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and their discussion is ALL about Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain. Totally irrelevant stuff like that.

      Hattenbach’s STORY makes perfect sense, right?

      But Hattenbach isn’t done yet.

      Now that he thinks he’s ‘set the scene’ for his CYA… he wants to ‘HAMMER the point’…

      ——————————————————————————————-
      The additional videos which were not found to be informative to the issue of causal factors and accident prevention and were not retained as part of the investigation files.
      ——————————————————————————————–

      Hammer… BOOM… Hammer… BOOM. Nothing to see here. Move along.

      Get it?…

      1. Team is allowed to decide what is relevant to investigation.

      2. Team decides only 1 of 21 videos is relevant.

      3. Team only KEEPS that 1 video… and DISPOSES of the rest… so that’s why they never showed up in the evidence that the SAIT was LEGALLY required to share with Arizona ADOSH ( ALL evidence ) or via any ‘Arizona Open Records’ request. The other TWENTY videos weren’t ‘evidence’ at all… because they listened to ALL of them… only decided M2U00265 was ‘relevant’ or ‘informative’.. and they then ( literally ) DISPOSED of the other TWENTY videos. Poof!

      Hattenbach then ‘closes out’ his ‘press release’ ( feeling good about the mental gymnastics he just ‘pulled off’ like a good little lawyer )…

      ———————————————————————————————-
      The State of Arizona recently requested copies of the remaining videos, and subsequently several other individuals made similar requests.
      ———————————————————————————————-

      Really?

      If Arizona Forestry NEVER knew there were 21 videos ( since the SAIT only kept ONE and DISPOSED of the rest )… how did Arizona Forestry even know to come back and “request copies of the REMAINING videos”?

      But let’s say that they actually DID make this ‘request’ ( FOIA request, supposedly ), that Hattenbach himself is now describing in his ‘press release’.

      So WHERE is that REQUEST?

      There is absolutely no such REQUEST… or ANY reference to it other than the emails shown above… anywhere in these ’emails’ recently provided from USFS.

      And for what REASON would Arizona Forestry have ‘suddenly’ been making this request for ( quoting Hattenbach ) “copies of the remaining videos”?

      Just so they could ‘release’ them from their website… like they actually did?

      If you believe THAT… I have lots of land to sell you in very strange places.

      So that’s it for the PRESS RELEASE part of Hattenbach’s work.

      He ‘built the case’… step by step… to establish what appears to be a perfectly ‘believable’ scenario… and he felt GOOD about himself.

      1. Aaron Hulburd gave 21 videos he shot in Yarnell to U.S. Forestry.

      2. U.S. Forestry IMMEDIATELY gave ALL 21 of those videos to Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the SAIT investigation team.

      3. USFS then seems to know ( for sure? ) that the SAIT team diligently looked at and listened to ALL 21 of these videos… and they then DECIDED that the ONLY one that had any ‘relevance’ or was ‘informative’ to ‘their purpose’ was the video with the filename M2U00265.MOV.

      4. They then IMMEDIATELY copied ALL of the other videos they had received from USFS onto CDs or Floppy disks… walked out into the parking lot… spread lighter fluid on them and set them on fire.

      And THAT is why ADOSH never received ANY of those other TWENTY videos, or why only ONE video was being delivered by Arizona Forestry in late 2013 in response to valid/legal ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests.

      Forget the fact that those same ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests were filled with hours and hours of Panebaker Air Study videos that were sometimes nothing but watch a helicopter fly along a road, with not even any radio traffic.

      Forget the fact that those same ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests were filled with tons of material that was obviouslyl (quoting Hattenbach) “not informative to the issue of causal factors”.

      There was TONS of SHIT included in the evidence folder like that.

      Just not the Aaron Hulburd videos.

      Maybe the SAIT just ran out of lighter fluid when they were burning JUST those 20 extraneous Hulburd videos that they decided had ‘no relevance’ to them… and so they just left ALL that other ‘extraneous shit’ on the hard drives they eventually were required to deliver to both ADOSH and Arizona Forestry.

      Yea. That must have been it.

      Reply

    • ** PART 2 – STEVE HATTENBACH’S ‘TALKING POINTS’…

      The SECOND part of the ‘deliverable’ that USDA Lawyer Steve Hattenbach was asked to supply to Arizona Forestry was, of course, the actual ‘MEDIA talking points and suggested responses’ section.

      In this part… he ( Hattenbach ) was just showing them the questions that were most LIKELY to come from the media… and how to supply ‘answers’ that were consistent with his ‘Part 1’ press release/statement.

      And by ‘consistent’… that meant he was ‘teaching’ them that ALL answers to questions had to ‘stick with his story’ from Part 1…

      1. U.S. Forestry DID receive ALL of Aaron Hulburd’s vidoes right after the incident.
      2. U.S. Forestry IMMEDIATELY gave them ALL to Dudley, Karels and the SAIT team.
      3. The SAIT team looked at ALL the videos… and only decided to KEEP just ONE.
      4. The other 20 videos then ( somehow ) VANISHED from the SAIT’s possession.
      5. That is why only ONE video was supplied by Arizona Forestry to AOR and FOIA requests.

      So here is Hattenbach ‘coaching’ them how to stay “true to that story”. He even just ‘cut and pastes’ certain relevant ‘phrases’ from his ‘press release/statement’ just to make sure these suggested ‘answers “stick with HIS story”.

      EMPHASIS below is MINE…

      —————————————————————————————–
      Q. Why weren’t the videos provided earlier?

      A. The Serious Accident Investigation Team and investigators working under their direction reviewed ALL OF THE VIDOES and ONLY found ONE to be informative to the questions posed for the investigation. The ADDITIONAL VIDEOS were NOT RETAINED as part of the investigation files. These videos were not requested previously, but once they were requested they were promptly released.
      —————————————————————————————–

      So there’s Hattenbach’s “informative to the questions posed for the investigation” blurb again straight from his ‘Part 1’ press release/statement.

      He’s showing them that it is CRUCIAL to always keep that “up front”… that the SAIT had the authority to decide what was ‘in scope’ and/or ‘relevant’… and that’s why they only decided to KEEP just ONE out of the 21 Aaron Hulburd videos. Without that thread of ‘logic’… Hattenbach’s whole story UNRAVELS and all they are left with is the FACT that U.S. Forestry and the SAIT were, in fact, purposely HIDING evidence.

      Hattenbach is also telling them to be SURE and always say “The ADDITIONAL VIDOES were NOT RETAINED”.

      What the fuck does NOT RETAINED mean?

      I mean, seriously?

      Did Hattenbach and Tom Harbour, Director of U.S. Forestry, REALLY think even the MEDIA was going to believe they ( Dudley, Karls and the SAIT team ) really just did JUST copy the ONE video with filename M2U00265.MOV onto their hard drive… and then take the CDs ( or whatever ) that they got from U.S. Forestry out into the parking lot and smash them with hammers and/or set them on fire?

      Apparently so.

      I also can’t emphasize enough that regardless of whether you can picture grown men out in a parking lot smashing U.S. Forestry labelled CDs or USB Flash drives with hammers… the BASIC STORY itself is total horseshit.

      ALL of those Aaron Hulburd videos were ‘in scope’ for a group that was legally tasked with finding out what happened in Yarnell ( the whole day ) on June 30, 2013.

      Even the videos BEFORE and AFTER the M2U00265.MOV one ( the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video with the deployment radio traffic ) had information that was SPECIFICALLY and DIRECTLY relevant to the ‘deployment’ circumstances.

      In the one just BEFORE M2U00265… anyone can CLEARLY hear SPGS1 Gary Cordes telling TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel to ‘send engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch’. If you turn the ‘gain’ up on your playback even just a little… you can also hear the words ‘Granite Mountain’ as PART of those ‘instructions’ from Cordes to Esquibel. And at the END of that other video… here come Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown pulling up in their UTV Polaris Ranger to talk with “The Three Prescoteers” ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ). After Trueheart Brown affectionately refers to his ‘fire brothers’ and says “Just tryin’ to keep fucking idiots from burning themselves up… Goooooddd DAMN!”… the conversation in that video is ALL about Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain… and who knew what about where they were even just PRIOR to the MAYDAY calls.

      And the Hulburd video right AFTER the M2U00265.MOV one still has radio calls from John Burfiend asking ‘Division Alpha’ to respond and asking if he can ‘hear aircraft’. It ALSO has that direct callout from OPS2 Paul Musser asking Burfiend if they have located Granite Mountain yet… and Burfiend says NO and offers his ‘best guess’ as to where they might be.

      We’re supposed to believe Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT didn’t think ANY of that was ‘relevant to the investigation’… and they ended up even smashing THOSE videos with a hammer in the parking lot?

      C’mon.

      NOTE: Stealing a quote here from the movie Pearl Harbor, when Lt. Col. Jimmy Doolittle ( Alec Baldwin ) is chewing out pilot Rafe McCawley ( Ben Affleck ) for ‘buzzing the tower’…

      That’s bull-shit, Hattenbach… ( long pause )… but it’s very, very GOOD bull-shit.

      Your law professors back at Indiana State University would be PROUD of you.

      Reply

      • I noticed the reference to the ‘hard drive’ as a media storage device when reading of this exchange concerning the helmet cam videos. Is the choice to specify the particular data storage device meant to lead the reader/audience to believe that that was the ‘sole copy’ of the helmet cam videos and they threw it in the garbage after determining the 1 video that was relevant to their investigation? Slick work. Reminds me of Amanda Marsh’ claim that she chucked her husbands cell phone in a trash can. Credible? Not bloody likely!

        Woodsman

        Reply

        • Considering that even the ‘copies’ of the Aaron Hulburd videos that were supplied to BOTH ‘Arizona Forestry’ AND ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ are NOT actually ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the ORIGINALS…

          …it still remains important to know WHO got Hulburd’s ‘originals’… and then exactly what ‘process’ was used to ‘deliver’ ALL OF THEM ( as Hattenbach now says happened ) to the SAIT.

          As you just pointed out… was it a hard drive? A Flash drive? A set of CDs?

          OR ( actually this most likely )… the SAIT was given a LINK to an FTP Server wherever the Aaron Hulburd videos were and the SAIT just ‘downloaded’ them all to the computer(s) and/or the Server(s) THEY were using for THEIR investigation.

          Given what Hattenbach is saying happened… the details MATTER.

          And as for the Aaron Hulburd ORIGINALS and WHERE they might actually be residing even today… that also remains a mystery.

          When the videos were released… part of the USFS ‘press release’ actually said that these were the actual videos ‘as received’… but they still gave no clue about ‘received from WHO… and HOW.

          They also then tried to point out that YES.. SOME of the videos had REDACTIONS… and those specific videos had an ‘R’ added to the filename to indicated there WERE some ‘Redactions’.

          But they also said that if there wasn’t an ‘R’ on the end of the filename… then there were NO ‘Redactions’ and NO ‘Edits’… and we are supposed to assume those are actual byte-for-byte copies of what they received.

          Well… they might actually be ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of what they ( USFS ) actually RECEIVED from Aaron Hulburd himself… but NONE of them are actually ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of the ACTUAL originals… as recorded by Aaron Hulburd’s camera.

          So we still could very much be looking at a scenario where U.S. Forestry really isn’t lying about some of those M2U00xxx.MOV video files being what Aaron Hulburd actually gave them… but if that is the case… then it still looks like Aaron Hulburd ( or someone else at the Prescott level ) did their OWN ‘editing pass’ before the videos were even given to U.S. Forestry.

          I’ve mentioned this before… but it is very easy to just ‘chop off’ parts of a video at either the START or the END and then ‘Save’ it back to disk… and it then becomes almost impossible to tell what the LENGTH of the original video is.

          It still remains possible some of that sort of thing actually happened even before those not-actually-original copies of the videos were ‘given’ ( given how? ) to U.S. Forestry.

          Reply

    • ** PART 2 ( CONTINUED ) – THE HATTENBACH ‘TALKING POINTS’

      And just so all of Steve Hattenbach’s law professors and alum from Indiana State University Law School can continue to be PROUD of him… here’s more ‘appreciation’ analysis of the remained of the ‘talking points’ and ‘cover your ass’ responses he came up with for U.S. Forestry and Arizona Forestry regarding the release of ALL of the Aaron Hulburd videos…

      ————————————————————————————-
      Q. Who knew about these tapes, when?

      A. These videos were provided to the Serious Accident Investigation Team when they were conducting the investigation during the summer of 2013.
      ————————————————————————————-

      Smart boy, again. He mentions NOTHING about WHEN or HOW U.S. Forestry themselves came into possession of their own employee Aaron Hulburd’s videos, and he suggests no one else does, either.

      In a sense… Hattenbach is telling U.S. Forestry that if push comes to shove over all this… it will be best to just throw Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the entire SAIT under the bus.

      “We gave THEM the videos.”… End of USFS responsibility for anything that happened AFTER that ( like hiding evidence or withholding it from valid/legal Arizona Open Records request(s) and/or not supplying the evidence to ADOSH as legally required ).

      ———————————————————————————————-
      Q. Was the U.S. Forest Service hiding these tapes?

      A. No. The videos were provided to the Serious Accident Investigation Team and the Forest Service released them promptly when recently requested.
      ———————————————————————————————–

      Again… Hattenbach’s PRIMARY responsibility ( since his paychecks come from the United States Department of Agriculture ) is to his ‘client’… U.S. Forestry.

      We ( USFS ) weren’t hiding the videos. We gave them to Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT team right away… and now here we are ‘giving them again’ ( for the SECOND time ).

      We’re the GOOD guys.

      Once again, though, it’s worth pointing out that this ‘request for the videos’ that supposedly came from Arizona Forestry itself is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in the emails that have been released.

      ———————————————————————————————–
      Q. What else are you hiding?

      A. The U.S. Forest Service has double checked for the presence of any further documentation or information and is not aware at this time of any additional materials that have not been provided to the State and the public.
      ———————————————————————————————–

      Oh… you mean… like the 2000+ emails that you just recently ‘found’, but
      somehow could not locate back in 2014?

      ———————————————————————————————–
      Q. Who took these videos? Can we talk to them?

      A. Due to pending litigation the Forest Service declines to offer any employees for interviews on this subject.
      ———————————————————————————————–

      Complete acknowledgement there from Steveo that the SOURCE of the videos was, in fact, one of the USFS’s own employees ( we all know it was Aaron Hulburd of the Prescott National Forest ).

      I assume this ‘wording’ also means that as soon as all the litigation is over… this ( and other ) USFS employees WILL be TOTALLY ‘free to talk about Yarnell and their involvement’?

      ———————————————————————————————–
      A. Individuals and organizations that are interested in obtaining any further documents may file a Freedom of Information Request.
      ———————————————————————————————–

      That goes without saying, Steve… but thanks for the ‘reminder’.

      Remember to keep checking your email / voicemail.

      Steve Hattenbach
      Acting Director, Public Affairs
      Southwestern Region, Forest Service
      333 Broadway Boulevard, SE
      505-842-3290 office
      505-828-1838 cell

      Reply

    • ** BENNY YOUNG NEEDED TO APPROVE HATTENBACH’S ‘TALKING POINTS’

      I actually forgot to include a very important person in the list of “Dramatis Personae” for this seedy little drama regarding the release of the Aaron Hulburd videos.

      He wasn’t included in any of the email headers… but he is specifically mentioned by USFS Public Affaris Specialist Jennifer Jones in one of HER emails.

      His name is Benny Young.

      Benny Young was/is a full-blown Deputy Assistant General Counsel ( lawyer ) for the United States Department of Agriculture… U.S. Forestry’s ‘parent company’.

      He is also one of USDA attorney Steve Hattenbach’s BOSSES, and HE works at the actual ‘Washington Office’ of the USDA.

      Here is an online list of ALL of the ‘Deputy/Associate General Counsels’ for the United States Department of Agriculter. ‘Benny Young’ is there and his law degrees came from the University of Virginia Law School…

      https://www.linkedin.com/title/associate-general-counsel-at-usda

      Here is the email where Jennifer Jones mentions Benny Young, and wants him to be included on these Hattenbach ‘talking points’ and to APPROVE THEM…

      —————————————————————————-
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 7:37 AM
      To: Harbour, Tom -FS; Hattenbach, Steve – OGC
      Cc: VanBruggen, Bill -FS; Hirami, Patricia -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: RE: Revised Draft Statement/Q&As

      Works for me, sure am glad we have a lawyer in the house! Steve, can you please send to Benny Young for review/approval and do you want to send it to Scott Hunt or would you like for me to do that? It would be good if we could get a read from Benny/Scott in the next couple of hours so that we can start working with WO OC/USDA QC-thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-xxxx
      —————————————————————————-

      So after U.S. Forestry ‘Public Affairs Specialist’ Jennifer Jones got all excited about what GOOD BULLSHIT lawyer Steve Hattenbach had just come up with for U.S. Forestry ( and was SOOO glad they had a ‘lawyer in da house’! )… her next instinct was to ask Steve Hattenbach himself to ‘forward’ the ‘press release/statement’ and ‘talking points’ to Benny Young, for his ( quote ) ‘review and APPROVAL’.

      Then she wanted it all ‘forwarded’ to Arizona Forestry grand-pooba Scott Hunt as well… and she wanted both ‘Benny’ and ‘Scott’ to ‘comment/approve’ WITHIN HOURS so she/they could keep moving forward with the planned ‘dog an pony’ show release of the Hulburd videos targeted for that coming Monday.

      We do NOT see ANY of those ’emails’ that must have followed her request.

      Not even in REDACTED form.

      Whatever USDA Deputy/Associate Counsel ‘Benny Young’ or Arizona Forester ‘Scott Hunt’ ( or anyone else ) actually THOUGHT of Steve Hattenbach’s ‘talking points’ and ‘cover your ass’ suggested responses to MEDIA questions… we still don’t know.

      Those emails are all MISSING.

      So the section way above introducing the ‘cast of characters’ for this seedy little ‘talking points’ and ‘cover your ass’ drama related to the release of the Aaron Hulburd videos should have looked like this…

      * Dramatis Personae – United States Department of Agriculture

      Steve Hattenbach – LAWYER with the ‘Office of General Counsel’ ( OGC ) at the ‘United
      States Department of Agriculture’ ( USDA ). He is the actual ‘author’ of the ‘talking points’
      that were needed by USFS and Arizona Forestry prior to releasing Aaron Hulburd’s videos.
      He was ( that that time ) also U.S. Forest Service Acting Director of Public Affairs for
      the Southwestern Region.

      Benny Young – Associate/Deputy General Counsel at USDA OGC ( Office of General Counsel ). Location: Washington D.C. Metro Area. Education: University of Virginia School of Law, University of Virginia

      Reply

      • Well…I would like to say a lot but I am at a loss for words right now other than I did tell you it’s important to know what kind of people you are dealing with. The good ole Forest Service that Bob and I thought we knew doesn’t exist anymore and probably never really did except in our minds.

        These are the “Grey People” who live in a world of nothing but shades of grey, there is no black or white or any other colors either. There is no right or wrong, good or bad…everything is situational…and the only answer is…”it depends.”

        As usual…great job WTKTT.

        I don’t think anybody is ever going to be able to write the definitive book on the Yarnell Hill Fire because there is no end to this disaster.

        I keep getting a chuckle though because I said a long time ago on this thread that this was not going to be like any other cover up in history. The world has changed and now the playing field is just a little more level. These assholes are have really been on a very steep learning curve now for almost three years and it just keeps getting worse for them.

        The explosion of social media really has changed the world we live in. And these assholes need to get up to speed…it has changed their world in a really big way as well.

        I bet they NEVER thought they would be reading their in-house emails on Investigative Media. I sure as hell didn’t. Stunning…absolutely stunning. GREAT work JD.

        If you don’t get a Pulitzer for this work…the world sucks. Which means you probably won’t get one because you know…the world sucks.

        Reply

        • Hi Gary. I agree.

          The Internet magnifies both the bullshit and the truth. It’s our job to sift the signal from the noise.

          And massive Kudos to you, WTKTT.

          It’s late, and I’m falling asleep, and I will need to spend some hours tomorrow reading what WTKTT has posted.

          Reply

  90. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH – ‘CARRY THE LOAD’ SPOKESMAN

    Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post
    on May 17, 2016 at 11:52 am

    >> TTWARE said…
    >>
    >> With Brendan now happily riding the publicity train, it looks less and
    >> less likely that he will EVER reveal what he actually heard on the radio
    >> (the main ‘missing element’). That responsibility is likely going to fall
    >> entirely upon the others who also actually heard the broadcasts.

    Agree… but something tells me that when these ‘others’ finally DO speak up… we will actually get a far more ‘accurate’ accounting than Brendan could ever provide… even if he wanted to.

    Speaking of “the publicity train”… ALL ABOARD for Brendan’s ‘next stop’ ( which actually already happened the other day ).

    Brendan was the ‘spokesman’ a few days ago at an outdoor rally in Phoenix in support of the “Carry the Load” organization that he has been associated with for a while now.

    The “Carry the Load” organization’s stated purpose is to “Try and restore Memorial Day to what it was intended to be”.

    It was started by a number of US veterans.

    The Arizona Republic – AZCENTRAL
    Article Title: Brendan McDonough joins Carry the Load relay
    Published: May 15, 2016 – by Patrick Breen
    http://www.azcentral.com/videos/news/local/phoenix/2016/05/15/84417734/
    —————————————————————————–
    VIDEO: Brendan McDonough speaking to an assembled crowd in Phoenix, AZ

    Brendan McDonough, the lone survivor of the hotshot crew lost in the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, speaks to those gathered for the Carry the Load relay as it makes its way through Phoenix to Chase Field on Sunday, May 15, 2016.
    —————————————————————————–

    In the video…

    Brendan is standing on an outdoor stage in front of a ‘sponsor board’ with endlessly repeating logos of both the “Carry the Load” organization and “Chase Bank”.

    Brendan McDonough ( at the microphone )…
    ———————————————————————————————
    Support Fire and EMS.
    We’re here today for them.
    We’re tryin’ to turn Memorial Day into Memorial May.
    Without out great sponsors we couldn’t do that… and without YOUR
    great support… I wouldn’t be here today.
    I KNOW the love… and it’s… it’s a blessing to have Carry the Load continuing
    on my brother’s legacy… and the fallen heroes that we’ve lost… their legacy.
    So I’ll… I’ll keep it short.
    I just wanna say ‘thank you’ for comin’ out today… and it means the world
    to me knowin’ that my brothers are never gonna be forgotten
    The men and women that I look up to every day… that I strive to be like…
    you’re honoring them. Carry the Load is doing it… participating… and
    ‘thank you’ for being out here today.
    ———————————————————————————————–

    Video then ‘fades in’ the song “I’m proud to be an American, where at least…”

    Yea… you know the one.

    Video ‘cuts off’ on “where at least…” and fades to black.

    This ‘appearance’ that Brendan just made on behalf of “Carry the Load” actually has gotten FAR more ‘face time’ in the MSM than his own book released did. This story went ‘viral’ and is all over the frickin’ place, at this point.

    Reply

    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps7xmW-9LXQ

      I wanna change it up for my love for the freedoms given to us all on this site—
      I am singing it this way since wwtktt posted it and man I have not heard that voice like that since the eighties—Sonny you always say how sweet my voice is but the past hour a gift came back so syrupy sweet as I changed the song like this and belted it- I was like whoah Joy- have not heard that part of you in soooo long:

      I thank my lucky stars
      To be on investigative media here today
      ‘Cause this site still stands for freedom
      And they can’t take that away

      And I’m proud to be on Investigative Media
      Where at least I know I’m free
      And I won’t forget all fallen and the 19 men who died
      Who gave that right to me
      And I’d gladly stand up next to you
      And defend you who are not able anymore still today
      ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt
      I love this Investigative Media
      God Bless Everyone Who Comes To This Site.

      From the lakes of Minnesota
      To the hills of Tennessee
      Across the plains of Texas
      From sea to shining sea

      From Detroit down to Houston
      And New York to L.A.
      Where’s pride in every truthful heart
      And it’s time we stand and say

      That I’m proud to be on investigative media
      Where at least I know I’m free
      And I won’t forget all fallen and the 19 men who died
      Who gave that right to me
      And I’d gladly stand up next to you
      And defend you who are not able anymore still today
      ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt
      I love this site
      God Bless Everyone Who Comes To This Site.

      That I’m proud to be on investigative media
      Where at least I know I’m free
      And I won’t forget all fallen and the 19 men who died
      Who gave that right to me
      And I’d gladly stand up next to you
      And defend you who are not able anymore still today
      ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt
      I love this site
      God Bless Everyone Who Comes To This Site.

      soft giggles-

      I am so happy right now. I feel I got alot accomplished today.
      Feels great.

      And if your gut feels a certain way- go with it…
      John Dougherty; I have to admit you are one amazing person as your read those emails and the link- you really have been there since the start and let’s not forget RTS and Bob Powers and Gary Olsen who also have been there since day one- July 2013- Thank you for the continued participation and I hope you all have a nice Memorial May…I mean Day 🙂

      Reply

  91. **
    **
    ** DARRELL WILLIS WAS PISSED ( ON JULY 26, 2013 )

    This was mentioned earlier down below… but here is the actual email that Darrell Willis sent to USFS employees Barbara Day and Bill Van Bruggen when he was PISSED about the Yavapai County Department of Public Safety releasing the written ‘reports’ from the officers that were onboard DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 to the media in response to their valid ‘Arizona Open Records’ request without giving HIM ( Willis ) any ‘advance notice’.

    Bill Van Bruggen is the USFS Director of Fire and Aviation Management for the SW Region.
    Barbara Day is a Forest FMO for the US Forest Service out of Rio Rancho, New Mexico.

    NOTE: Neither USFS employee ‘Bill Van Bruggen’ nor USFS employee ‘Barbara Day’ had any ‘official’ involvement with the Yarnell Hill Fire SAIT investigation. Their names do NOT appear anywhere in the final SAIR document that was published on September 28, 2013.

    Darrell Willis sent the following email on July 26, 2013, just 72 hours after having been allowed to ‘host’ that first public press conference from the deployment site ( on July 23, 2013 ) where he first offered his own ‘official’ explanation for the tragedy as “God had a different plan for those men”.

    ———————————————————————————
    From: Willis,Darrell [mailto:darrell.willis (at) prescott-az.gov]
    Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:08 AM
    To: Day, Barbara B -FS; VanBruggen, Bill -FS
    Cc: Willis,Darrell
    Subject: DPS Report and Ariticle in Todays AZ Republic
    Importance: High

    Thought I would give you two a heads up on this. I was called last night by Jim Paxon telling me that the AZ DPS was sued and lost in court to release the DPS Ranger incident report when they found the GMIHC 19. They released the report last evening. It is graphic and caught us all off guard. DPS did not even notify or give the State the report. Their records folks gave the AZ Republic the whole deal. So we are behind the curve with the families. I am leaving Sunday to get away from this for a week and turning my phone off, if I don’t do this I will need to just walk away, there is too much on me right now. I have full confidence that I will gain some clarity and can reengage with a week to refocus and get back on the horse and see it through. Thanks for all you have done for me, the PFD and our 19. DW

    Darrell Willis, Division Chief
    Prescott Fire Department
    333 White Spar Road Prescott, AZ 86303
    (928)777-1701
    Office (928)776-1890
    Fax (928)925-7311
    Cell: xxx-xxx-xxxx
    Notice: My new e-mail address [email protected]
    ————————————————————————————-

    When Willis said “It is graphic and caught us all off guard”… he must have been referring to just the following ONE paragraph in the ‘report’ coming from DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr…

    ———————————————————————-
    As I approached the shelters I observed multiple Firefighters who were obviously deceased and burnt black. I had not seen this from the air, but had been advised by Officer Main that he had seen what appeared to be bodies at the site. from the air. I walked into the shelter deployment site and determined that the voices I had heard were coming from still functioning radios. The majority of the Firefighters were obviously deceased and burned extensively lying outside of their shelters in various positions.
    ———————————————————————-

    That’s pretty much the ONLY part of ANY of the three DPS Officer reports that could be construed as being ‘graphic’ in any way.

    Reply

    • That particular email message stood out to me as well.

      “So we are behind the curve with the families.” Translation please? I know what ‘behind the curve’ means but what is the context of this statement?

      Woodsman

      Reply

      • Reply to Woodsman post on May 17, 2016 at 6:39 pm

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> That particular email message stood out to me as well.
        >>
        >> “So we are behind the curve with the families.” Translation please?
        >> I know what ‘behind the curve’ means but what is the context
        >> of this statement?

        Good question.

        Maybe the ‘context’ had a lot to do with what Darrell Willis might have been ‘telling the families’ prior to that information going public… and what he had ALSO said to the press ( and to the World ) just 72 hours before we saw Eric Tarr’s actual written report.

        Here are ‘excerpts’ from Darrell Willis’ press conference that he ‘hosted’ from the deployment site just 72 hours before this email… on July 23, 2013.

        It’s the part(s) where Willis is talking about whether or not all of the Granite Mountain Hotshots actually fully ‘deployed’ ( as in… all the way under their shelters ) or not.

        On December 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) posted…

        ** THE COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF DARRELL WILLIS’ PRESS CONFERENCE
        ** HELD AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE JULY 23, 2013.

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell/#comment-5642

        From that transcript… ( Darrell Willis is the sole ‘speaker’ )…
        ——————————————————————————-
        The… the voice of what actually happened… we’ll never know.
        We’re not gonna have that information from them.

        But… uh…

        I can tell ya that they died with honor.
        That… uh… they stuck together.

        One of the things that… that… is… uh… very unique about this situation
        is 19 firefighters saw and felt the same way.

        They… uh… nobody cut and run the other direction.
        Nobody tried to get out of the way.
        They all deployed.
        They were a very cohesive team.

        Uhm… and… they were in a very tight deployment area.
        All of their shelters were pulled.
        …and… they all deployed at the same time.
        …and they all died… ah… in this location.
        ——————————————————————————-

        And then, in response to a reporter’s question about whether
        they really all were in shelters or not… Willis said this…

        ——————————————————————————-
        Ya know… one other thing that I wanted to emphasize is… ya know…
        there’s been some discussion some didn’t have their shelters on…
        and some didn’t deply their shelters… we know 19 shelters
        were deployed… and there’s a process when you deploy shelters.
        The leadership is the last one in those shelters. I don’t know what
        happened… some of the… some of the… uh… firefighters did not have
        their complete shelter on ’em but… but you can’t even take that
        into consideration because the heat was so intense the shelters
        broke down… so we don’t know anything about that but we do
        know that they all deployed their shelters… and that’s… ya know…
        something that was… that’s… uh… ya know… a number one thing…
        but the leadership… the superintendent, the captain, the squad bosses
        insured that every one of their people was in their shelter before
        they got in. That’s just policy and procedure.
        ——————————————————————————-

        So there was Willis trying to say that it would have been ‘policy and procedure’ for the managers ( Steed and Marsh ) to NOT get into their shelters until they were sure all the men in their care had already done so.

        Bullshit. It didn’t happen that way.

        So maybe what PISSED Willis off more than anything is that the release of Eric Tarr’s Incident Report absolutely confirmed that this ‘line of bullshit’ that he had probably also been selling to the family members was totally false.

        Eric Tarr’s report was the first actual ‘confirmation’ that more than HALF of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had NOT ‘fully deployed’… and were mostly OUTSIDE of their shelters when the fire hit them… and all that the imagination can conjur for that set of circumstances was actually TRUE.

        Either way… what REALLY pissed Willis off was discovering that Yavapai County DPS had gone “outside the brotherhood” thing and was not “playing ball” with HIM and Arizona Forestry.

        It was all about CONTROL OVER THE INFORMATION..

        Willis realized he no longer had it… and it PISSED HIM OFF.

        Reply

  92. After reading some of these emails, I have a whole new respect for RTS, who recognized early-on how important the external factors were in effecting the decision-making by GM on the YHF. He tried to give the SAIT a heads-up, which, along with the supporting correspondence from the other Shot Supe, was quickly ignored.

    These released emails (and missing emails) are just one more example of the info that is still being withheld (hidden). I hope whoever actually does put together the definitive book on the YHF, waits for ALL the dust to settle, and it WILL still be settling for some time to come.

    With Brendan now happily riding the publicity train, it looks less and less likely that he will EVER reveal what he actually heard on the radio (the main ‘missing element’). That responsibility is likely going to fall entirely upon the others who also actually heard the broadcasts.

    This whole government investigative debacle, turns the stomach more and more each day.

    In regards to John Phipps title as “Acting Program Manager for Human Factors Risk Management Research Development and Application for the USFS’ Rocky Mountain Research Station”, organizations and bureaucracies would like outsiders to believe that “risk management” is some sort of safety-process identification and compliance unit, while, in actuality, risk manager duties require a great deal of time spent deflecting the truth from leaking out.

    Hence, nobody did anything wrong, nothing to see here, move along. THAT should be the ‘mission statement’ used for dealing with all outside entities. Well-done, John Phipps, you are following it to a ‘T’.

    Please allow me a moment to vent a bit (Disclaimer: I understand the organizational processes that would oppose and fight these next suggestions, but I need to vent anyway).

    The 10 & 18 with LCES will be around (but tweaked from time to time) as long as all the rest of us are. Yes, they are the gold standard, BUT, in today’s environment, and in order to save more lives, we MUST begin to understand the forces and effects that cause people, whether consciously or subconsciously, to deviate or ‘forget’ to employ them.

    A couple of things, in my view, that need to happen AT THE VERY LEAST, some of which has been touched-on here before:

    1. A national board of independent investigators, similar to NTSB, knowledgeable about firefighting, not staffed by former agency employees, and un-beholden to any of the bureaucracies they may be investigating.

    2. A simple version of an airline pilot’s checklist, to be used on every hazardous fire assignment (and/or subsequent relocation), which will be verbally checked-off by the 2 senior personnel assigned to that resource (whether, hotshot crew, engine crew, or whatever), utilizing the 10&18 and LCES as criteria.

    Reply

    • Wow WTKTT your # 2 is the way it use to be 1950 thru 2000.

      As a Crew boss with a new crew or as a Sector Boss or Division Boss That is what I did every shift. My Superintendent always went thru them with us the start of every Shift.

      That may in some places not be happening any more. or in many places which is to bad.

      IT IS THE TRAINING– THE BASICS– AND THE FOUNDATION FOR FIRE SAFETY.

      Reply

      • Just to clarify, my #2 suggestion above, is not to have a ‘daily reminder’ of the 10&18, etc., of which many crews regularly do today, it is, in fact, a ‘here we are now, out on the fire-line at our assigned location, now, we HAVE to look around and go through our REQUIRED checklist’, OR, we’re moving from our fire-line assignment to another location/assignment, we HAVE to go through our REQUIRED checklist.

        This process, if made a requirement, would only take 3-4 minutes and would likely save lives.

        REASON:
        I would like to think a REQUIRED checklist (maybe just a pocket card?) would be enough of a memory jogger to pierce to veil of the external factors that are still killing firefighters.

        I will say that the vast majority of wildland firefighters don’t need a checklist because they already closely follow the 10&18 and LCES.

        This is for those who might tend to get sidetracked by those external factors that we’ve all been talking about.

        Reply

        • Let us hope all you say is true I keep hearing todays FF are not following the 10 and 18 as we use to.

          I sincerely hope you are right..

          I use to also always pack the fire line note book for reference with changing conditions. A lot of good direction there. Including memorized 10 and 13 back then. I carried that book a lot I think I was on my 3rd one by the time I retired.

          TTWARE sorry I confused you with WTKTT.

          Reply

          • Everyone carries the pocket guide these days, but obviously (as in YH), they don’t come out of the pocket as much as they should.

            Reply

  93. The release of this stuff is like USFS has had enough and is (admittedly only after John Dougherty’s and InvestigativeMEDIA’s FOIA request) throwing all those involved in the coverup under a bus!

    The god damn plane has crashed into the mountain!
    …and in a BIG way.

    Some of it makes for incredibly sobering reading.
    You guys have been right in your search for the truth, all along and in so many ways..
    Thank you all.

    Reply

  94. **
    ** MIKE DUDLEY THANKS PEOPLE FOR HELPING HIM HIDE EVIDENCE

    This is the email where we see USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley basically ‘thanking’ everyone for trying to help him ‘hide evidence’ and prevent videos that were ALWAYS in the possession of the taxpayer-funded SAIT from ever being revealed to ADOSH OR from going ‘public’.

    Dudley just found out that Aaron Hulburd’s original M2U00265.MOV video ( now known as the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video with the deployment radio traffic in it ) was about to be released to the public.

    He characterizes this as a FAILURE… be he ‘thanks everyone’ all for the (quote) “amount of WORK we put into trying to protect this information” ( endquote ).

    “protect” = HIDE.

    This “amount of WORK” he is referring has to be taken in the ‘context’ that we know now that Dudley ALWAYS had ALL 21 of the Aaron Hulburd videos… and he also ‘withheld’ them from ADOSH ( with whom he was LEGALLY required to share ALL of his ‘investigation materials’ )… and he also ‘withheld’ them from various legal and valid ‘Arizona Open Records’ and FOIA ‘requests’ that had already taken place.

    It isn’t just all about the Aaron Hulburd video(s) either. Dudley mentions that they were also working hard to HIDE those additional Unit Logs and interviews the SAIT always had in their possession that were also never shared with ADOSH or supplied in response to legal/valid FOIA requests.

    Those were both actually ‘crimes’… as far as his responsibilities to both Arizona and ADOSH Interagency Information sharing laws and Arizona Open Records / FOIA laws go. So he is basically now ‘thanking’ everyone for all the hard work they did HELPING him ‘break the law’ for as long as they could get away with it.

    Also… same guy who is now saying ( in this email, in December of 2013 ) that he “feels for the familes” is the one we also see deciding he didn’t even want to TALK to David Provencio ( and others )… who we now see had IMPORTANT evidence and information they were trying to GIVE him that was relevant to the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation… but Dudley didn’t give a fuck?

    Excuse me while I throw up in my mouth a little.

    This email also shows Dudley’s ‘Google Alerts’ in action.

    Mike Dudley obviously had a ‘Google Alert’ set for himself that would send him email messages when any ‘new’ articles were appearing about the Yarnell Hill Fire… and he was now just ‘forwarding’ the ‘Google Alert’ he received about the ‘radio broadcasts’ now being available online…

    Original FOIA-992 PDF document: PDF page 1298
    ============================================================================
    From: Dudley, Mike -FS
    Sent: 14 Dec 2013 14:35:03 +0000
    To: Clay Templin [email protected]; Apuzzo, Godot -FS; Brad Mayhew (brad (at) xxxxxxxx.com);
    Draeger, Randy -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS; Gonzales, Ralph H FS; Jennifer Ziegler;
    jim.karels (at) xxxxxxxxxx.com; John.wachter (at) noaa.gov; Jimmy Rocha jrocha (at) xx.xxxx.ca.us;
    Kuhn, Robert – FS; Kurth, Jay -FS; Lance Carbone; lcarbone (at) xxx.com; Manwaring, Robert -FS;
    Petrilli, Anthony C -FS; Phipps, John -FS; rokon (at) xx.xxxxxxx.mt.us; Sutton, Larry – FS;
    tlfoley (at) xxxxxxx.com; Tim Zimmerman; Wilson, Richa -FS
    Subject: FW: Google Alert – Granite Mountain

    Folks,

    Well, after trying to protect this video from release it finally happened yesterday. All of the news outlets have it posted and in addition, the state released the interviews of the FS personnel that were not given permission to be interviewed by ADOSH. In all, it was a media frenzy in Phoenix yesterday.

    I feel for the families having the video posted but I appreciate the amount of work that we put into trying to protection this information.

    MD

    Mike Dudley
    USDA Forest Service
    mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
    801-540-4881

    From: Google Alerts ( googlealerts-noreply (at) google.com )
    Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:04 AM
    To: Dudley, Mike -FS
    Subject: Google Alert – Granite Mountain

    News – 4 new results for Granite Mountain

    It’s the worst firefighting disaster in our state’s history: 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed while working the Yarnell Hill fire. Now we’re hearing their last …

    Radio exchanges shed light on hot shot crew’s final moments KPHO Phoenix
    Before you watch the attached video, we need to warn you that the frantic exchange,
    recorded by a camera mounted to a firefighter’s (not Granite Mountain) …
    See all stories on this topic

    Yarnell Hill Wildfire Report: Last radio transmission MyFox Phoenix
    It is the worst firefighting disaster in our state’s history — 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots …
    It’s heartbreaking to listen to the final moments of the Granite Mountain …
    See all stories on this topic

    Yarnell Hill Fire: Documents reflect campaign that fell into ‘total … azcentral.com
    The documents were compiled by investigators for a report on the fire that killed 19 Granite
    Mountain Hotshots and burned 127 homes June 30 near Prescott.

    See all stories on this topic

    Unsubscribe from this alert.
    Create another alert.
    Manage your alerts.
    ============================================================

    Reply

    • He is part of the new human Factors in Accident instructors/Lecturers. Some of what RTS has been educated in. It is part of the accident prevention by Identifying the Human Factors that are involved in many types of accidents.

      I believe he is also tied in with Boise NIFC. The Educational programs that go on there year around.

      I would also bet Ted Putnam knows him.

      The SAIT Team did not go into Human Factors which should be one of the investigative points. Interesting any way.

      Reply

      • The new emails prove that even though this Ivan Pupulidy guy was NOT officially ON the SAIT team and he was NOT even mentioned anywhere in the CREDITS in the SAIR report… he was, in fact, one of the primary AUTHORS of the “No one did anything wrong… move along” SAIR narrative… and he was being given this chance to ‘test fly’ his shiny new “Coordinated Response Protocol” ( CRP ) approach to Wildland Fire Accident investigations.

        Shortly AFTER Yarnell… US Forestry trashed the SAIT approach and fully adopted Ivan Pupulidy’s CRP protocol as the new, official, Accident Investigation Protocol’ for Wildland Fire Fatality Incidents.

        And that is exactly what John Phipps and he ( Pupulidy ) used for the TWISP River fatality investigation.

        So ( as the new emails show us )… Ivan Pupulidy was really the BRAINS behind the Yarnell SAIR document itself… even though he wasn’t even ON the SAIT team or ever mentioned in the SAIR report itself.

        He is ALL OVER these USFS Yarnell emails.

        He was being included and consulted about EVERYTHING.

        When Fred Schoeffler first contacted Mike Dudley on July 27, 2013, and gave his ‘opinion’ about how the Yarnell Hill Fatalities would all come down to “human factors”… before John Phipps even commented back to Dudley he made sure he forwarded everything Schoeffler was saying to his little henchman back at the USFS Rocky Mountain Research Center… Ivan Pupulidy.

        And as he was ‘Forwarding’ ALL of Fred Schoeffler’s initial ‘comments’ to Mike Dudley on to his henchman Ivan Pupulidy… John Phipps added the following derisive comment about what Schoeffler was saying…

        “It starts and continues”

        Here is that email from John Phipps back to Ivan Pupulidy…
        ( USFS employee James Saveland was CCed by Phipps as well )…

        Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 158
        =================================================================
        From: Phipps, John -FS
        Sent: 29 Jul 2013 18:00:05 +0000
        To: Pup (pupulidy (at) xx.com); Saveland, James -FS
        Subject: FW: From Fred Schoeffler – Payson IHC Supt 1981-2007 re: Yarnell Hill Fire

        It starts and continues .

        NOTE: John Phipps then just ‘dumped’ the entire original email from Mike Dudley which included Fred Schoeffler’s commentary about “human factors” being the sole cause of the Yarnell tragedy into this email he was sending to his USFS cohort Ivan Pupulidy.
        =======================================================================

        Reply

        • Notice above that in his email contacts folder… USFS Rocky Mountain Research Center Director John Phipps just has Ivan Pupulidy listed affectionately with just the nickname…

          Pup.

          Isn’t that CUTE?

          Reply

          • no. it’s nauseating just like reviewing that link because I try to place myself in their shoes and think maybe some things may be sensitive due to loved ones and such but nothing we said was sensitive nor Dr. Ted Putnam or others as you see too much redacted green boxes…of course green blood uses green boxes…it is upsetting because when the truth surfaces maybe at that time Marshall Krotenberg and Brett Steuter and Bruce Hanna can feel an ease on the ulcers- these people did wrong to ADOSH as well as John two months ago when he received this package because that is not every email in regards to Yarnell

            Reply

            • Repy to Joy A. Collura post on
              May 16, 2016 at 10:33 pm

              >> Joy A. Collura said…
              >>
              >> no. it’s nauseating

              Actually… if you look through the emails… pretty much all the TOP BRASS in the USFS just called this mysterious Ivan Pupulidy guy… ‘Pup’.

              >> Joy A. Collura said…
              >>
              >> you see too much redacted green boxes

              Yes. There is an obvious ABUSE of the ‘Deliberative Process’ FOIA exemption privilege going on here.

              USFS is even claiming that ‘Deliberative Process’ exemption for many, many emails that are dated LONG AFTER the original SAIR document was finished and PUBLICLY released/published.

              Their ‘Deliberations’ about what should be included in the final SAIR document were LOOOONG OVER at the point where they are STILL trying to claim “Deliberative Process” FOIA exemptions for many of the emails in this FOIA response.

              And speaking of which…

              Included in this FOIA response are a bunch of emails that are dated November and December of 2013… at least 2 to 3 months AFTER the SAIR was ‘finished’ and ‘published’.

              They have to do with a high level ‘Fire Managers’ meeting and conference scheduled to take place where they were going to discuss adopting Ivan Pupulidy’s shiny-new CRP ( Coordinated Response Policy ) fatality investigation procedures and basically ‘vote’ on whether Pupulidy’s new CRP protocol was ‘ready’ to fully replace the SAIT format as the official USFS approach to investigating fatality incidents.

              The two people who were going to make the ‘Power Point Presentation’ at the ‘conference were ( you guessed it )… John Phipps and his little henchman Ivan Pupulidy.

              However… even though we can see ALL of the email headers surrounding all of this… and we can see the USFS TOP BRASS asking for everyone’s COMMENTS…

              …EVERYTHING ELSE IS ‘REDACTED’.

              We can SEE them passing around the ‘documents’ coming from John Phipps and Ivan Pupulidy and we can SEE the USFS asking everyone involved to “Please comment” ( and they DID )… but we still have NO IDEA what was actually in the Phipps/Pupulidy ‘presentation’ nor what ANYONE actually thought of it.

              And ALL of the ‘green box redactions’ surrounding even just this one CRP protocol adoption event and people’s opinions about it have the ‘Deliberative Process’ FOIA exemption listed as the reason WHY all of that is being BLACKED OUT in this FOIA release.

              WHY?

              WHY would USFS be treating what Ivan Pupulidy was saying to them ( and what they were saying back ) as something that the PUBLIC is ‘not allowed to see’?

              What are they AFRAID of… just in THIS one instance?

              >> Joy A. Collura
              >>
              >> that is not every email in regards to Yarnell

              Most certainly NOT.

              It is perfectly obvious that there are still LOTS of USFS ’emails’ that are actually just plain MISSING from this FOIA response.

              Reply

    • Glad you asked ( I was about to talk about him myself ).

      This is the guy who is the current ‘brains’ behind the entire US Forestry policy of never assigning any ‘blame’ to anyone… at any time… for any reason.

      He has more ‘degrees’ than you can shake a stick at. Mostly in ‘social sciences’.

      Here is Ivan Pupulidy’s LinkedIn page…

      https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanpupulidy
      —————————————————————————
      Ivan Pupulidy, PhD
      Director of the Office of Learning at US Forest Service
      Boise, Idaho Area
      Program Development

      Current: US Forest Service, Tilburg University

      Previous : US Forest Service – Rocky Mountain Research Center, Lund University,
      The Pontificia Universidade Catolica do Rio Grande do Sul (PUCRS)

      Education: Lund University
      —————————————————————————

      He ( Ivan Pupulidy ) was/is the ‘cohort’ of USFS employee John Phipps… who is the Director of the United States Foresty Service’s ‘Rocky Mountain Resarch Station’.

      Ivan Pupulidy ‘worked’ for John Phipps there, circa 2013, as a ‘Social Sciences’ expert ( whatever the hell that is ), but his real job was to come up with a new way of investigating Forestry Service accidents so that USFS employees can never be held accountable for ANYTHING.

      His full ‘job title’ back in 2013, while working for John Phipps was…

      “Acting Program Manager for Human Factors Risk Management Research Development and Application for the USFS’ Rocky Mountain Research Station.”

      How’s that for a mouthful?

      Shorthand for: “Invent a new Accident investigation protocol that never finds blame.”

      John Phipps became the one totally in CHARGE of the United States Forestry Service’s investigation into the TWISP River Fire fatalities… but again… his cohort Ivan Pupulidy was the one who is actually WRITING the ‘narrative’ for the TWISP investigation report itself.

      John Phipps was ‘officially’ on the SAIT investigation team… but his little ‘henchman’ Ivan Pupulidy was NOT… But now we see that this mysterious ‘Ivan Pupulidy’ was also being INCLUDED on MANY of these emails flying back and forth regarding the Yarnell investigation.

      So even though he wasn’t on the SAIT… and he received no CREDIT at all when the report came out… it’s obvious from the content of some of these emails that Ivan Pupulidy was the SOURCE for a lot of the TEXT of the SAIR report itself.

      No one can write “No one did anything wrong” better than Ivan Pupulidy.

      USFS thought he did so well ‘authoring’ the SAIR that he ( of course ) got a big fat promotion following Yarnell. Pupulidy is now “Director of the Office of Learning at US Forest Service” and he’s now ( apparently ) based in Boise, Idaho.

      And this mysterious Ivan Pupulidy is now the SOLE AUTHOR of the brand-spankin’ new Accident Investigation Report format that has been adopted to replace the ‘Serious Accident and Investigation Protocol’ at the US Forestry Service.

      Here is Bill Gabbert at Wildfire today ‘announcing’ this new CRP protocol ( which we jokingly renamed to CRAP here when it was being discussed ).

      CRP stands for “Coordinated Response Protocol’. Ivan Pupulidy is so convinced that no one should ever be blamed when things go wrong that he decided to even remove the word ‘Accident’ from the new ‘Accident Investigation’ protocol he, himself was inventing.

      So we added it back in to the acronym FOR him and you then have…

      “Coordinated Response Accident Protocol” – CRAP!

      Wildfire Today
      Article Title: USFS to use new serious accident review system
      Published: August 7, 2014 – by Bill Gabbert
      http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/08/07/usfs-to-use-new-serious-accident-review-system/

      To give you an idea how this mysterious brainiac Ivan Pulpify actually ‘thinks’… here are some of the words coming out of his own mouth about his new CRP ( CRAP ) accident investigation protocol that is now replacing the SAIT approach…
      —————————————————————————
      The U.S. Forest Service has created a new review process for serious incidents involving a fatality or three or more hospitalizations, called the Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP). According to the agency:

      USFS says…

      “The CRP is a process now being used to ensure we learn everything possible from serious incidents so we can prevent recurrence while reducing the painful effects on those closest to the incident”.

      “This new process minimizes traumatic impacts on witnesses, coworkers and others close to the tragedy while improving our ability to gather information and learn. The CRP replaces the Serious Accident Investigation with a new process called the Learning Review. The Learning Review is designed to create learning products for multiple audiences.”

      Ivan Pupulidy called us to say that he was the author of the new protocol. Presently he is the Acting Program Manager for Human Factors Risk Management Research Development and Application for the USFS’ Rocky Mountain Research Station. In September he will be the Director of the USFS’ new Office of Learning. Mr. Pupulidy said the agency no longer subscribes to the one-year old Interagency guide and explained that under the new system both versions of the reports will be published on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center website. When asked if the causes, conclusions, and observations would be included in the reports, he said they “will not include traditional nonsense”.
      —————————————————————————

      NOTE the LAST sentence…

      When asked if the causes, conclusions, and observations would be included in the reports, he ( Ivan Pupulidy ) said they “will not include traditional nonsense”.

      So, according to this ‘brainiac’ Pupulidy… doing things like fonding out what the actual CAUSES of accidents are is simply “traditional nonsense”… and the USFS won’t ever be doing that anymore with HIS ‘new protocol’.

      This new CRP ( CRAP ) protocol is EXACTLY what was ‘on display’ when that preliminary TWISP River fatality report was released.

      Classic Pupulidy. “Nothing to see here… move along… move along”.

      Reply

      • All those degrees..sonny has that same problem…sonny calls it piled higher and deeper…get some high boots..it just means taller the boot to wade through the bs…in reality..sonny is actually Dr. Tex Gilligan but to him it’s just some.bat hide…he use to hAve a funny way of telling it and I failed above. Yet even with that fact you did not see the Prescott fire or.sait come to Sonny for advice or even respected his opinion to this date instead they redacted our public information so book authors can.get it wrong.On us

        Reply

  96. 7-22-13 9:36am

    FOLKS-

    pg1904/2144

    DO YOU SEE WHAT MIKE DUDLEY SAYS

    “think about that…”

    think about what- what does it mean— is it another “oh shit” there was eyewitnesses out there— we have been from the start not embraced from Prescott FD or the SAIT to sit down in person or take a hike and ask us the activities we saw but in looking in this FOIA they did not have to because they had their sly hidden moles—that reported back to them—that is my humble nauseated opinion.

    Reply

    • As these emails now show us… SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley had a special ‘Google Alert’ system set up to constantly search for Yarnell related articles and to notify him immediately when one appears… and these emails are related to when Mike Dudley suddenly saw the Prescott Daily Courier article appear revealing that there were HIIKERS out there on June 30, 2013, who had actually SEEN and TALKED with both Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain crew… a few hours before they died.

      It starts with Richa Wilson saying that Joanna Dodder Nellans of the Daily Courier made sure to send Joy’s photos to Public Information Officer ( PIO ) Carrie Templin, and they are now being ‘passed around’ to the SAIT team… on July 22, 2013.

      These ’emails’ were passing around a PDF file containing Joy Collura’s photos…

      Attachment: EmailColluraPhotos.pdf

      ————————————————————————————–
      From: Wilson, Richa -FS
      Sent: 22 Jul 2013 17:21:45 +0000
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS;Apuzzo, Godot -FS;Brad Mayhew; Carbone, Lance C -FS; jim.karels (at ) xxxxxxxxx.com;John. wachter (at) noaa.gov; Jimmy Rocha jrocha (at) xx.xx.ca. us; Kurth, Jay – FS; lcarbone (at) x.com;Manwaring, Robert -FS;Petrilli, Anthony C -FS;Phipps, John – FS; Randy Okon rokon (at) ci.missoula.xx.us; tlfoley (at) xxxxx.com; Tom Zimmerman
      Subject: RE: Mike Dudley wanted you to see this
      Attachments: EmailColluraPhotos.pdf

      In catching up on email, I see Joanna Dodder Nellans, reporter/videographer with the Daily Courier, contacted Carrie Templin and emailed the photos to her (see attached). Carrie has forwarded them to me.

      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 9:36 AM
      To: Apuzzo, Godot -FS; Brad Mayhew; Carbone, Lance C -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS; jim.karels (at) xxxxxxxxxxx.com; John.wachter (at) noaa.gov; Jimmy Riocha jrocha (at) xx.xx.ca.us; Kurth, Jay -FS; lcarbone (at) x.com; Manwaring, Robert -FS; Petrilli, Anthony C -FS; Phipps, John -FS; rokon (at) xx.xx.mt.us; [email protected]; Tom Zimmerman; Wilson, Richa -FS
      Subject: FW: Mike Dudley wanted you to see this

      Folks,

      Jimmy found this link and they have photos attached to it from hikers who were in the area and stopped to talk with the crew that morning as they were hiking in. Think about that .

      :Mike ‘Dud[ey
      Acting Director Cooperative Forestry
      USDA Forest Service
      202-205-1602 [email protected]
      Temporary physical address:
      1621 N. Kent St. 9th Floor RPE Arlington, VA, 22209

      From: Mike Dudley – mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
      Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 12:32 PM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Mike Dudley wanted you to see this

      Mike Dudley wants you to visit:

      Copyright 2013 The Daily Courier
      h t t p: // http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=121504
      ————————————————————————————–

      Reply

      • Whoops… got bitten by the “too many links in one message” thing again.
        See below. I reposted with less ‘links’.

        Reply

    • As these emails now show us… SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley had a special ‘Google Alert’ system set up to constantly search for Yarnell related articles and to notify him immediately when one appears… and these emails are related to when Mike Dudley suddenly saw the Prescott Daily Courier article appear revealing that there were HIIKERS out there on June 30, 2013, who had actually SEEN and TALKED with both Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain crew… a few hours before they died.

      It starts with Richa Wilson saying that Joanna Dodder Nellans of the Daily Courier made sure to send Joy’s photos to Public Information Officer ( PIO ) Carrie Templin, and they are now being ‘passed around’ to the SAIT team… on July 22, 2013.

      These ’emails’ were passing around a PDF file containing Joy Collura’s photos…

      Attachment: EmailColluraPhotos.pdf

      ————————————————————————————–
      From: Wilson, Richa -FS
      Sent: 22 Jul 2013 17:21:45 +0000
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS;Apuzzo, Godot -FS;Brad Mayhew; Carbone, Lance C -FS; jim.karels (at ) xxxxxxxxx.com;John. wachter (at) noaa.gov; Jimmy Rocha jrocha (at) xx.xx.ca. us; Kurth, Jay – FS; lcarbone (at) x.com;Manwaring, Robert -FS;Petrilli, Anthony C -FS;Phipps, John – FS; Randy Okon rokon (at) ci.missoula.xx.us; tlfoley (at) xxxxx.com; Tom Zimmerman
      Subject: RE: Mike Dudley wanted you to see this
      Attachments: EmailColluraPhotos.pdf

      In catching up on email, I see Joanna Dodder Nellans, reporter/videographer with the Daily Courier, contacted Carrie Templin and emailed the photos to her (see attached). Carrie has forwarded them to me.

      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 9:36 AM
      To: Apuzzo, Godot -FS; Brad Mayhew; Carbone, Lance C -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS; jim.karels (at) xxxxxxxxxxx.com; John.wachter (at) noaa.gov; Jimmy Riocha jrocha (at) xx.xx.ca.us; Kurth, Jay -FS; lcarbone (at) x.com; Manwaring, Robert -FS; Petrilli, Anthony C -FS; Phipps, John -FS; rokon (at) xx.xx.mt.us; tlfoley (at) xxxxxx.com; Tom Zimmerman; Wilson, Richa -FS
      Subject: FW: Mike Dudley wanted you to see this

      Folks,

      Jimmy found this link and they have photos attached to it from hikers who were in the area and stopped to talk with the crew that morning as they were hiking in. Think about that .

      :Mike ‘Dud[ey
      Acting Director Cooperative Forestry
      USDA Forest Service
      202-205-1602 mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
      Temporary physical address:
      1621 N. Kent St. 9th Floor RPE Arlington, VA, 22209

      From: Mike Dudley – mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
      Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 12:32 PM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Mike Dudley wanted you to see this

      Mike Dudley wants you to visit:

      Copyright 2013 The Daily Courier
      http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=121504
      ————————————————————————————–

      Reply

  97. Randy Draeger- pg 1940/2144 on RTS-
    9-11-14 Randy said RTS named the sair a snow job- as he emailed Jim and Mike-

    Randy is RTS pal- and see how he wrote to the SAIT folks-
    had RTS really ever said in public in person speaking that Marsh killed the boys?

    I have to like RTS for his forthcoming ways in a current environment of his as a speaker yet it also holds “pause” in “how” UNTIL the missing elements surface…

    Reply

      • Mike Dudley absolutely FREAKED OUT when he learned that the InvestigativeMEDIA had just publicly posted the ENTIRE SAIT evidence folder.

        What he THOUGHT was that someone from the SAIT had just accidentally posted a LIVE LINK to the ACTUAL online server that the SAIT itself had been using during their investigation.

        It never dawned on him how QUICKLY ( in this day and age ) that kind of information can be simply uploaded and posted on OTHER Servers… and he was freaking out because he thought one of his own SAIT team members had just given the media a link to the SAIT’s own ‘Online Folders’.

        Reply

          • Joy as much as I know you want to pin point another who gave orders it still dose not lessen the responsibility of Marsh or Steed.
            They were both right there looking at the picture right in front of them.
            They should have seen the Fire activity, Reviewed the Weather Forecast,
            Developed a best scenario Safety plan with no risks. They failed to use LCES and Failed to identify any Watch Outs. No one but them could see what they were seeing. They had choices they had 17 men relying on those Divisions. Marsh and Steed made the choice to leave the Black and drop down in front of the Fire and then went right into a brush filled canyon where they could not see what the fire was doing. NO ONE TOLD THEM TO TAKE THOSE RISKS they did that on their own.

            Reply

            • Bob…That’s Sonny not.Joy.Joy is.100% about missing elements and.I.don’t support giving orders even though I know information on that topic but in that topic too I want additional missing elements but nope Sonny is the order thinking fella not Joy.

              Reply

            • Bob,

              It seems to me that there is more than 100% responsibility for this tragedy. I agree that Steed and Marsh were 100% responsible for leading their men into danger, and then death. How much responsibility does each individual on that crew have for following?

              GM may not have been a fully qualified IHC due to too few permanent members, too few veterans, etc. I’m still trying to do an accounting based on published info and standards, but JDs New Times article Lambs to Slaughter suggests that should not even have been there as a type 1 team. Would a true type 1 team have had the integrity and backbone to overrule Marsh and Steed. Willis and Steed, but not Marsh signed off on the certs. What percent responsibility is that?

              What about David Provencio (sp?)? He says he has information about how sloppy and unsafe GM were, but were reports filed at SAFENET or anywhere else? What good is it to drag this stuff out after the guys are dead? Does he and all the others who observed GM transgressions on other fires in past years have any responsibility? If GM had been busted to type 2, they may have gotten the message and cleaned up.

              Even a qualified IHC needs rest. Were they properly requested by the state (against SWCC policy)? It seems that overhead didn’t really have a plan for two teams from the beginning, as Blue Ridge sat out most of the day. Is this typical for fire incidents during high season when resources are thin already? Were GM called up just to clock more hours with no intention that they would contribute? If not, why did the safety officer who arrived halfway through the day say that he didn’t even know they were there until around the time of the deployment (forget exact words)? Was Marsh annoyed or embarrassed that his crew was treated like kids and needed to compensate?

              Finally, was Willis responsible months and years before the incident for muddling the mission of the crew to include more structure work for which they had no plan, no equipment, no training? Were Willis’s words rattling around in Marsh’s head as he demanded the crew to move out of the black? Did they echo in the heads of the crew as they acquiesced to the demand? Are those the same words we heard falling out of Willis’s mouth at the presser he did at the site days after the event?

              I’m sure I’m missing some, but plenty here to start…

              Reply

                • Muzzy all good questions most we have discussed here.
                  in the past chapters. There was just a lot of Human Factors with this crew.
                  Yes the crewman had responsibility as well but then how was this crew trained to follow their leaders?
                  I think Marsh and Steed took more of the Drill Sargent approach they were in charge and the crew followed.

                  Way back we discussed some fire that GM were given Bad Ratings on and one they were sent home from.

                  Marsh also caused a HS crew to be disbanded because his Squad was Smoking Marijuana and drinking on the line they were sent home that was before he was hired by Prescott City.

                  I know you have not got the time to go back and research the Past chapters but all your questions were all gone over and discussed. Just a lot of frustrating info about the Crew.

                  Reply

                  • Whoa! I knew there were issues, but this is worse than I thought. Still, there are grownups that are still managing fires who knew this stuff. Why aren’t those people being investigated? Wait, don’t answer that, I can guess. Still, I would like to start by getting Willis, the FD chief, the city manager and the mayor all together to ask when they thought this would all blow up in their faces!

                    Reply

                  • P.s. I am trying to go over past discussions, but it seems that each page has something that sends me off on another tangent. For example, a little dust-up recently sent me back over the Battlement Creek incident reports ?

                    Reply

                    • We do that some times we have been here to long with each other to give up. so we get agitated and then get back to the issues.

                      Knowing seems to be limited to who and what they were willing to open up as in the can of worms.

                      Marsh left the FS with his last problem but was some how hired with Prescott City????

                      HS Superintendents have a hard time coming to grips with another Crew or Superintendent.
                      So I think some issues were just ignored.

                      According to what we have herd some Superintendents tried to talk to Marsh but he shined them off. His own Supervisor seemed to not pay attention to the Fire Ratings as well.

              • Muzzy,

                Great post. You’ve been paying attention. Not only can I not refute any of your points, all I see in my research is data that strengthens your statements.

                Keep up the good work. It’s folks like you that keep my hope alive that the entire truth will surface, be accurately analyzed, and serve to prevent the incessant and unnecessary loss of future wildland firefighters.

                Thank you!

                Woodsman

                Reply

                • Hi Woodman,

                  Thanks for the kind words. One reason I’m hanging around reading this stuff is that I think it’s time to start a national discussion about fire management, including building standards, road design, WUI FF techniques, etc. and I’d like to be part of it. Lots of entrenched interests stand in the way though. I feel like this fire may be the one where we can all take a stand, thanks is part to all the info you all have been putting out here.

                  Reply

              • Muzzy…

                Once again… thank you for your well-thought-out contributions to this ongoing discussion.

                The ANSWER to every ‘question’ you pose above about there being ‘shared responsibility’ and ‘other’ places for significant “Lessons to be Learned” is pretty much YES. Across the board.

                As for you pointing out the FACT that pretty much BOTH of the Type 1 Hotshot crews that did show up that day ( Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge ) never really made any contributions that mattered as far as actually ‘fighting the fire’ goes.

                1. Granite Mountain only accomplished about 150 yards of completed handline, in a place that didn’t really matter, after working that location for upwards of 6 hours.

                2. The Blue Ridge ( Crew ) just ‘sat around’ all day… and even when finally given a line-improvement assignment very late in the afternoon… they had to ‘abandon’ that assignment just minutes after they got started and evacuate.

                Remember there was a THIRD Type 1 Hotshot crew that was ordered up and was SUPPOSED to be there as well.

                The Arroyo Hotshots.

                But they never even showed up just because one of their Chase trucks had a mechanical problem.

                But what if the Arroyo Hotshots HAD actually shown up that morning?

                Would they have just ended up sitting around all day by their crew carriers in the Sesame clearing area just like Blue Ridge did?

                There was NO INCIDENT ACTION PLAN ( IAP ).

                All day Saturday, the day before, there was NO IAP.

                That night, after the fire had ‘escaped’ and now Russ Shumate, Darrell Willis and Gary Cordes were frantically ordering up all those resources throughout the evening and into the wee hours of the morning… there was NO IAP.

                The next morning, when the ‘Type 2 Short team’ and ALL of those resources started ‘arriving’… there was still NO IAP.

                When Roy Hall realized they had fucked it up with the ‘Type 2 Short’ approach and asked Scott Hunt and David Geyer if he could ‘ramp’ to Bea Day’s Type 2 team… there was still NO IAP.

                When Hunt and Geyer called Roy back and said they had decided to skip Bea Day’s Type 2 team and go right up to Clay Templin’s Type 1 team… there was still NO IAP.

                The very FIRST “Incident Action Plan’ that ever got generated for this fiasco didn’t appear until the evening of July 1, 2013.

                Unbelievable.

                So yea… even if the Arroyo Hotshots HAD shown up on Sunday morning… if no one had any ‘assignment’ for even the Blue Ridge Hotshots… then what the fuck would the THIRD Type 1 Hotshot Crew have had to do?

                Answer: Nothing at all. Just stage, like Blue Ridge is ( already ) doing.

                Reply

                • Re: “The Arroyo Hotshots.

                  But they never even showed up just because one of their Chase trucks had a mechanical problem.”

                  Ha, sounds like some people can recognize a clusterf*** when they see it!

                  Shouldn’t someone be called on the carpet for ordering resources that they didn’t even need? Is it practical to require an IAP before resources are allocated?

                  Reply

                  • Muzzy,

                    I’m not defending Hall’s Short T2 IMT, but consider Yarnell for what it was–a transition fire where complexity was elevated by extreme measures. Per usual, the IMT members were trickling in, including the Planning Sections Chief who arrived in Yarnell around 1604 and is responsible for building the IAP. No PSC, no IAP. Granted, the State via Shumate’s information could have thrown together an IAP, there are blank formats available to just fill in, especially the frequencies, medevac plan, maps, and naming the overhead (OPS particularly, considering there were two on the fire). But the State didn’t have the foresight for this nor is it normal ops to build an IAP without a Planning person, Type 3 up to Type 1.

                    As far as what WTKTT says about the work accomplished by GMIHC and BRIHC I call bulls**t. It’s WTKTT’s lack of experience in fire where he can label what these IHC’s were doing as lack of production or non-work. I blame the OPS for not stepping back and reassessing wtf the plan was, STOP what you’re doing and redevelop the plan, things were changing that quickly. This didn’t happen and IHC’s do what they do, which is what BRIHC was doing, posting the crew in a safe spot while the leadership scouted. To the layman it’s easy to label BRIHC as “sitting around” but this wasn’t the case.

                    And let’s not forget a contribution the BRIHC leadership made later in the day while working the dozer line–saving multiple lives in the Shrine area by pushing resources out.

                    thank you,
                    gizmo

                    Reply

                    • Thanks for the info, gizmo. I hope my comments didn’t indicate disrespect to the IHCs but rather wonder at having such a resource without a mission. It seems like these fires often escalate the way this one did, but that may be biased because the fatal fires we hear most about are not typical.

                      How often does it happen that overhead changes so often in such a short period of time? When it does, should they just automatically go up two steps in anticipation, or should they just start with a higher type for all fires just in case?

                    • Gizmo,

                      You said:

                      “No PSC, no IAP.”

                      Which means to me that it’s your belief that since a Planning Section Chief was not on scene until after 1600 hrs ON THE THIRD DAY of the fire, then that constitutes a plausible explanation of why there was no written Incident Action Plan (IAP.) I say that the fact that the fire managers didn’t have one (even on the third day of fighting this fire) is yet another management failure in a growing list. It doesn’t take a full-blown Planning Section Chief to fill-out the forms to get one done. It’s really easy and in consideration of the ramp-up in personnel, equipment, and aerial resources into the third day of this fire, it would have been an excellent antidote to the mass confusion apparently present on June 30th.

                      Sorry. No pass from me there. Multiple Wildland overhead are very accustomed to the creation of IAP’s. Heck, they even build them for training academies. Any number of people could have been given the task to build a Incident Action Plan of some substance. You don’t even have to type it – I keep blank forms in my truck. Just having a solid list of radio frequencies would have been huge that day.

                      I agree with your point that BR was in staging for a considerable period of time which may have been due to their Supe & Capt going through the proper procedure to get a handle on what’s going on before engaging their crew.

                      Off topic questions:

                      What is your background in fire?

                      I don’t want to know your identity as the beauty of this forum is that you may add to the discussion anonymously if one chooses to do so. But I’m wondering if you have posted under a different alias here before? It seems as though I know you and I’m just a naturally curious person.

                      Thank you as well.

                      Woodsman

  98. okay now question for John Dougherty-

    what was your FOIA request- ALL emails in regards to YHF?

    if so- ours lack in the reply to you from them-

    Number one classic was Mike Dudley from his blackberry sent a reply “oh God” as well as 6-24-15 [email protected] Cyndi black sent back our FOIA request.

    the original email from Mike Dudley 8-13-13 to schedule a meeting-

    the list goes on and on but when I am able to pull up ol history in front of me but I know for sure I did not catch that or my Paul Morin foia request-

    there was much more from the hikers-

    why are we not in it.

    Reply

    • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 16, 2016 at 6:41 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> there was much more from the hikers-
      >> why are we not in it.

      Joy… it’s already perfectly obvious that there are still a LOT of ‘known correspondence’ items that are still MISSING from this USFS response to John Dougherty’s legal FOIA request.

      Example: We can now see ALL the emails about them arranging the ‘dog and pony’ show to cover the release of the 21 Aaron Hulburd videos that USFS ALWAYS had in their possession… and that they have even GIVEN every single one of them to Mike Dudley and his SAIT investigation long before the SAIR even came out…

      …but NOWHERE in this FOIA response do we see any emails related to HOW all of those videos actually entered their possession from their own employee… USFS employee Aaron Hulburd ( Prescott National Forest ).

      Are we supposed to believe that USFS employee Aaron Hulburd just left ALL of these videos in a basket on the doorstep of the United States Forestry’s Washington office?

      No fucking way.

      There HAD to have been emails/correspondence/notes regarding HOW they got these videos from their own employee.

      And that’s just ONE example of ‘items’ that are obviously still MISSING from this response to a valid, legal FOIA request.

      Reply

      • Another example…

        In the ADOSH investigation folder… we see LOTS of emails between them and US Forestry trying over and over again to gain ‘access’ to USFS employees that were known to have been working at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013.

        But nowhere in this FOIA response do we see either the same emails that can be found over in the ADOSH correspondence folder… OR any other ‘internal’ emails with them ‘discussing’ how they were going to BLOCK the ADOSH legal/valid Touhy requests asking for interviews with their employees.

        Like it never happened.

        Reply

  99. saw you on link
    http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/19/discoveries-in-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings-provide-new-information-about-location-of-eric-marsh/
    charleymoseley, CJ-62
    sorry Charley-
    I am in tears-
    sorry the world lost ya-
    one like Dr. Ted Putnam who seeked purity and clarity- since Mann Gulch

    2039/2144 Richa Wilson 1-21-14
    she did not like being compared to Benghazi- or that people think it is a cover up YET to this date Richa the facts are not all out and when Dudley is asking to edit air attack Aug 2013- makes one wonder WHY???? what is that called? why would it piss her off that we want answers that keep being omitted as its obvious in news John got a couple months ago and showed us just now-

    Reply

  100. Elizabeth is on pg 2051/2144 6-30-14 on human factors to Mike Ferris-

    who is Mike Ferris?

    Reply

    • Mike Ferris is a PIO ( Public Information Officer ) for United States Forestry Service.

      He also serves as a PIO for some ‘Incident Management Teams’.

      Here’s a pretty complete BIO for USFS employee Mike Ferris…

      http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/nimo/teams/?cid=STELPRDB5398570

      It’s also interesting to note in the emails dealing with Elizabeth Nowicki that USFS knew she was a lawyer… and they believed she was just ‘phishing’ in relation to ‘litigations’.

      They ( the USFS Public Information Officers that were getting here emails ) ended up referring to her as a “Watchout Situation”.

      Reply

        • Yes he is one of the Top PIO’s in the North west. Worked on a couple of fires with him in early 90’s.

          Reply

      • 1. Nobody gets “paid” unless the fire gets big. (I figured when I first said this it was going to light off a bomb here so may as well say it again)

        2. Public Information Officers (PIO) are damage control specialists. They’re job is to disseminate information and influence or control the narrative. My good buddy is an experienced type 1 and actually from the true wildland side…when I told him my definition of a PIO, he didn’t disagree with me. Talking points, talking points, talking points.

        Woodsman

        Reply

    • she is on page 1700 too-

      I kinda like her push here

      where is the rest where Rick says ,…what?

      Reply

  101. 2063/2144 pg-
    Brian Mockenhaupt the very first person after Joanna Dodder did her courier piece with GMHS on it- Brian and Josh Eells were the very first two people to reach out to hike and talk to hikers-
    on 1-28-14 Brian says to Mike D. that he feels he is wrestling an octopus – trying to make sense of this all—

    WELCOME ABOARD now almost THREE years later maybe one has to realize you don’t need weapons to get the octopus or even wrestle—just learn THE CREATURE at hand and how to handle it and with this octopus Brian you wrestled…did you once think to bite it on the nerve center between the eyes…it actually works…lil gross but works…

    Reply

  102. **
    ** MIKE DUDLEY, JIM KARELS, AND THE REST OF THE SAIT WERE OFFERED
    ** EVIDENCE OF GRANITE MOUNTAIN’S PRIOR ‘RISKY BEHAVIOR’… BUT DUDLEY
    ** SAID HE AND THE SAIT WEREN’T INTERESTED IN ANY OF IT.

    Scattered throughout the recent release of ’emails’ from US Forestry is an extended email conversation that took place when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the rest of the SAIT were being offered DOCUMENTED PROOF of Granite Mountain’s reputation for ‘risky behavior’.

    The DOCUMENTED PROOF was being offered by TWO reputable and respected Type 1 IHC Superintendents…

    David Provencio and Fred Schoeffler.

    The testimony and DOCUMENTED PROOF was being offered just about 4 weeks into the original SAIT investigation… starting on August 5, 2013.

    The SAIT report would not be published until September 28, 2013.

    Mike Dudley was passing the information on to many others involved with the SAIT… but we see them ( in the emails ) deciding they ( everyone who was being informed about it ) simply didn’t WANT to (quote) “go there”.

    They purposely and deliberately DECIDED to NOT follow up on ANY this information… or make it any part of their investigation into the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I have put this entire email exchange into ‘chronological order’… and it’s going to take a few ‘Replies’ to this message to show the whole email conversation.

    But first… here are the Type 1 IHC Superintendents that were trying to get this information to Mike Dudley and the SAIT…

    ** DAVID PROVENCIO

    David Provencio became the Superintendent of the Geronimo Hotshots in 2010 and remained in that position for 2 years and 5 months, until October, 2012

    David Provencio’s PUBLIC ‘LinkedIn’ page is here…

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-provencio-jr-01613837
    ——————————————————————————-
    Current…
    ** Fire Science Instructor at Truckee Meadows Community College in Reno, Nevada
    Work experience…
    ** Hot Shot Superintendent – Geronimo IHC
    June 2010 – October 2012 (2 years 5 months)
    ** Helicopter Crew Captain
    Sycuan Fire Department
    May 2007 – November 2007 (7 months)
    Supervised a 26-person helicopter wildland firefighting crew.
    ** Captain on the Fulton Hotshots working under the direction of
    Jim “Scooby” Smith the very first US Forest Service IHC Superintendent.
    ——————————————————————————-

    ** FRED SCHOEFFLER

    Fred Schoeffler was a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew Superintendent for 26 years.
    An absolute record in the WFF industry.

    Fred Schoeffler’s PUBLIC ‘LinkedIn’ page is here…

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/fred-schoeffler-5905a4b
    ——————————————————————————-
    Wildland Fire Supervisor at Coconino National Forest
    Flagstaff, Arizona Area – Management Consulting
    Current: Sheff LLC, Coconino National Forest
    Previous: Murphys Fire District (CA), US Forest Service
    Education: Arizona State University
    Work experience…
    Wildland Fire Supervisor
    * Coconino National Forest – April 2010 – Present (6 years 2 months)
    Mostly Safety Officer 2
    * Safety Support Group – Murphys Fire District (CA)
    May 2008 – April 2010 (2 years)
    Wildland Fire Supervisor
    * Hot Shot Crew Superintendent – US Forest Service
    Payson IHCS, Pleasant Valley IHCS, etc.
    April 1981 – May 2007 (26 years 2 months)
    Superior Skill and Daring on wildland fires
    ——————————————————————————-

    The first ‘Reply’ below starts off the email conversation with David Provencio’s first email to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, on August 5, 2013…

    Reply

    • ** RECONSTRUCTION OF THE DAVID PROVENCIO EMAIL SEQUENCE

      The earliest timestamp in this ‘sequence’ comes at 15:54:17 +0000 on August 5,
      when Mike Dudley first said “Look who dropped me a note” ( from his Blackberry )
      and he was forwarding what he just received From David Provencio.

      NOTE: Dudley’s Blackberry timestamp of “15:54:17 +0000” actually
      translates to “9:54:17 AM” ( On the morning of August 5, 2013 ) ??
      UPDATE: But Provencio’s email was sent to Dudley at 11:35 AM, after having
      talked with Schoeffler at 8:51 AM? Timezones?

      THE FIRST EMAIL FROM DAVID PROVENCIO TO
      MIKE DUDLEY AT 9:31:27 AM, Monday, August 5, 2013.

      IT INCLUDED A ‘FORWARD’ FROM THE EMAIL EXCHANGE HE
      HAD WITH FRED SCHOEFFLER ON AUGUST 1 ABOUT ‘JERRY PAYNE’,
      HENCE… THE ‘SUBJECT LINE’ FOR THE EXCHANGE WITH DUDLEY…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF document: PDF page 314
      ===========================================================
      From: David Provencio
      Sent: 5 Aug 2013 15:31:27 +0000 ( 9:31:27 AM )
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Good morning Mike,

      As you may know there are many of us Hotshots, past and present IHC superintendents that are not very happy with the decisions made at Yarnell Hill. I know you have a tough job as the team leader for the investigation and I hope you report the truth. Myself and others were in contact with Blue Ridge and T3 OSC several hours after the incident. Brian Frisby is one I would value my life with, so as I’m thinking and getting ready to send my son to a Hotshot crew next year, I know the good ones and the not so good ones.

      Having worked with Granite Mtn before (we were next door neighbors), at San Carlos Apache Tribe, with Geronimo IHC. I can name several assignments from 2010 – 2012 where Eric Marsh made recommendations on some fire line work, BUT there was no other decision but turned it DOWN….. Yarnell Hill, although tragic, does not come as a surprise to me and many of us.

      To me this was just part of a trend that ended with this tragedy.

      If you would like to discuss those particular past assignments, I have them WELL DOCUMENTED in WRITING, and in my mind.

      Thanks for listening.

      Dave

      David Provencio mso_1977 (a) xx.com
      xxx-xxx-5635

      “Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”

      Begin forwarded message:

      From: “David Provencio”
      Date: August 01, 2013 8:35:32 AM
      To: “Schoeffler Fred” ,
      “Schoeffler Fred”
      Subject: Jerry Payne?

      Fred,

      After reading a later article where the Prescott FD Chief responded to Jerry Payne, I would like to contact him and compliment him on his courage ….. AND share with him my past experience having worked with Eric March and his crew, and several questionable decisions he has made in the past. To me, there is a trend in his decison making ….

      Thanks,

      Dave

      David Provencio mso_1977 (at) xx.com
      xxx-xxx-5635

      “Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”
      =======================================================

      Mike Dudleys ‘replies’ to this David Provencio email will be in the next message…

      Reply

    • ** REPLIES
      **
      ** NOTE: EACH OF THESE ‘REPLIES’ COMING IN ALL HAD DUDLEY’S ORIGINAL
      ** Subject line of “Fwd: Jerry Payne” with text message “Look who dropped me a note”
      ** BUT BELOW IS JUST THE ‘RESPONSES’ THE VARIOUS INDIVIDUALS MADE
      ** TO RECEVING THAT EMAIL FROM DUDLEY…
      **
      ** 23 minutes later at 9:54:17 AM, while using his Blackberry Smartphone,
      ** Mike Dudley ‘forwarded’ the email he received from David Provencio
      ** at 9:31:27 AM to the following people. His only comment to THIS list of
      ** people, at that time, was “Look who dropped me a note”.
      **
      ** Mike Dudley had NOT received that ‘followup clarification’ email from
      ** David Provencio yet. He only forwarded what he FIRST received
      ** from Provencio to this list of people…
      **
      ** Notice that Steve Holsambeck ( USFS ) was the FIRST person that Dudley
      ** added to the ‘To:’ list, even though Holsambeck was NOT a
      ** member of the SAIT. Holdsambeck would also be the first
      ** one on that list to ‘Reply’ to Dudley’s email… at 1:01 PM…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 1296
      =======================================================
      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: 5 Aug 2013 15:54:17 +0000 ( 9:54:17 AM )
      To: Holdsambeck, Steve -FS; Draeger, Randy – FS; karels (at) doacs.state.fl.us;
      Wilson, Richa -FS; Tom Zimmerman
      Subject:Fw: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Look who dropped me a note.

      Sent from my Blackberry

      ( David Provencio’s entire original email from 9:31:27 AM,
      but minus the ‘clarification’ Provencio would eventually send at 1:00 PM,
      was then included here )
      =======================================================

      ** 67 minutes later… at 11:01 AM on August 5, 2013… Steve Holdsambeck ( USFS )
      ** would then send his ‘Reply’ to Dudley’s email from earlier that morning
      ** in which Dudley had also ‘forwarded’ David Provencio’s original email…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 668
      =======================================================
      From: Holdsambeck, Steve -FS
      Sent: 5 Aug 2013 17:01:35 +0000 ( 11:01 AM )
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Cc: Draeger, Randy -FS;Wilson, Richa -FS; Tom Zimmerman
      Subject: Re: Jerry Payne?

      Obviously you need to be careful how you respond to this. My advice would be
      somewhere between these two options:

      [ (b)(5), Deliberative Process Privilege ]
      [ THE REST OF THE BODY OF THIS EMAIL HAS BEEN REDACTED ]
      [ ABOUT 6 OR 7 LINES OF TEXT TOTAL HAVE BEEN REDACTED ]

      iPad mail
      Steve Holdsambeck
      Firefighter Safety Program Manager
      U.S. Forest Service – Intermountain Region
      324 25th St – Suite 4060
      Ogden, UT 84401 cell: xxx.xxx.7258

      ( Original “Look who dropped me a note” email from Mike Dudley with )
      ( David Provencio’s original email is included here in this email )
      ( response from Steve Holdsambeck back to Mike Dudley )
      =======================================================

      ** Then, at 1:00 PM on August 5, David Provencio sent Mike Dudley an UPDATE
      ** to the email he sent Dudley at 9:31 that morning trying to CLARIFY what he was
      ** said in that first email.
      **
      ** Mike Dudley would then send this ‘clarification’ ( along with the original
      ** email from Provencio ) to another list of people the NEXT DAY, on
      ** the morning of August 06, 2013 ( See that August 6 email down below ).

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 216
      =======================================================
      From: David Provencio – mso_1977 (at) xx.com
      Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 1:00 PM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Mike,

      Sorry about the clarity in my second paragraph…… Eric recommended an assignment and the rest of us turned it DOWN!, ….. the assignment(s): LCES, ORDERS, WATCH-OUTS had way tooooo many violations, poor decision making, …. I’m alive and my people are alive to tell you my story. I don’t agree that they are heroes, or what the Chief (and others) at the Prescott FD (group think) .

      Having trouble sleeping over this tragedy …… and I wasn’t even there ….

      THANKS AGAIN, Prov

      David Provencio
      mso 1977 ( at) xx.com
      xxx-xxx-5635

      “Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”
      =======================================================

      See below for more emails in the next ‘Reply’

      Reply

    • ** REPLIES ( CONTINUED )

      ** 23 minutes later, at 1:23 PM on Monday, August 5, 2013, Tom Zimmerman
      ** replied to Dudley’s ‘forward’ of the original Provencio email. Zimmerman was
      ** unaware that Provencio had just sent Dudley that ‘clarification’ email 23
      ** minutes earlier… but Zimmerman had been ‘CCed’ on that 11:01 AM response
      ** from Steve Holdsambeck already and he references it in his response to Dudley…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 2139
      =======================================================
      From: Tom Zimmerman
      Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 01:23 PM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Re: Fw: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Boy, Dave is all over the place and his comments leave it hard to understand what he is focusing on. They tend to lead toward a place he should not go and also to Steve’s comments.

      ** NOTE: When Zimmerman says he thinks ‘not going there’ is related to one of Steve’s comments… Zimmerman is referring to the comment Holdsambeck just made 22 minutes earlier about ‘being careful’… OR… Zimmerman’s ‘not going there’ was referring one of the REDACTED ‘suggestions’ that Steve Holdsambeck made, which Zimmerman had already just been CC’ed on by Holdsambeck.
      =======================================================

      ** 13 minutes later… Mike Dudley responds to Tom Zimmerman’s
      ** comment that David Provencio seems to be “all over the place”
      ** with his own derisive comment of “Yep, that’s Dave P. all over the place.”

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 2139
      =======================================================
      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: 5 Aug 2013 17:36:43 +0000 ( 1:36 PM )
      To: Tom Zimmerman
      Subject: Re: Fw: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Yep, that’s Dave P. all over the place.

      Sent from my Blackberry
      =======================================================

      See the next ‘Reply’ for the emails that then picked up again the NEXT DAY…

      Reply

    • ** THE NEXT DAY – AUGUST 6, 2013
      **
      ** The next day, at 6:39 AM on August 6, 2013, Mike Dudley forwards that
      ** same original email from David Provencio from the day before to another
      ** ‘list’ of people… but this time Dudley is including that ‘clarification’ email
      ** he received from Provencio at 1:00 PM the day before, August 5, 2013.
      **
      ** Mike Dudley is now also telling Jay Kurth and Jimmy Rocha that
      ** he isn’t the slightest bit interested in ‘following up’ on anything that
      ** Provencio has to say… but he will let THEM decide if THEY are interested…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 216
      =======================================================
      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: 6 Aug 2013 13:39:27 +0000 ( 6:39 AM )
      To: Kurth, Jay -FS; Jimmy Rocha, Jim Karels, Draeger, Randy -FS
      Subject: FW: Jerry Payne?

      Jay, Jimmy,

      See the email below. I’ll let you decide if either of you want to talk to him. I’m not. MD

      :Mike Dudley – USDA Forest Service [email protected]
      801-540-4881

      From: David Provencio
      Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 1:00 PM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Mike,

      Sorry about the clarity in my second paragraph…… Eric recommended an assignment and the rest of us turned it DOWN!, ….. the assignment(s): LCES, ORDERS, WATCH-OUTS had way tooooo many violations, poor decision making, …. I’m alive and my people are alive to tell you my story. I don’t agree that they are heroes, or what the Chief (and others) at the Prescott FD (group think) .

      Having trouble sleeping over this tragedy …… and I wasn’t even there ….

      THANKS AGAIN, Prov

      David Provencio
      mso 1977 (at) xx.com
      xxx-xxx-5635

      “Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”

      Begin forwarded message:

      From: “David Provencio”
      Date: August 05, 2013 9:31:27 AM
      To: “Dudley Mike”
      Subject: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Good morning Mike,

      As you may know there are many ofus Hotshots, past and present IHC superintendents that are not very happy with the decisions made at Yarnell Hill. I know you have a tough job as the team leader for the investigation and I hope you report the truth. Myself and others were in contact with Blue Ridge and T3 OSC several hours after the incident. Brian Frisby is one I would value my life with, so as I’m thinking and getting ready to send my son to a Hotshot crew next year, I know the good ones and the not so good ones.

      Having worked with Granite Mtn before (we were next door neighbors), at San Carlos Apache Tribe, with Geronimo IHC. I can name several assignments from 2010 – 2012 where Eric Marsh made recommendations on some fire line work, BUT there was no other decision but turned it DOWN….. Yarnell Hill, although tragic, does not come as a surprise to me and many of us. To me this was just part of a trend that ended with this tragedy. If you would like to discuss those particular past assignments, I have them well documented in writing, and in my mind. Thanks for listening.

      Dave

      David Provencio
      mso_1977 (at) xx.com
      xxx-xxx-5635

      “Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”

      Begin forwarded message:

      From: “David Provencio”
      Date: August 01, 2013 8:35:32 AM
      To: “Schoeffler Fred”
      Subject: Jerry Payne?

      Fred,

      After reading a later article where the Prescott FD Chief responded to Jerry Payne, I would like to contact him and compliment him on his courage….. AND share with him my past experience having worked with Eric March and his crew, and several questionable decisions he has made in the past. To me, there is a trend in his decison making….

      Thanks,

      Dave

      David Provencio
      mso 1977 (at) xx.com
      xxx-xxx-5635

      “Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”
      ===========================================================

      ** Jimmy Rocha ended up ‘Replying’ to this email of Dudley’s sent August 6, 2013.
      ** when Dudley said “I’ll let you decide if you want to talk to him. I’m NOT going to”.

      ** In Reply to Dudley’s August 6 email…
      **
      ** On Aug 6, 2013, at 6:39, “Dudley, Mike -FS” srote…
      **
      ** Jay, Jimmy,
      ** See the email below. I’ll let you decide if either of you want to talk to him. l’m not.
      ** MD ( Mike Dudley )

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 1891
      =======================================================
      From: Jimmy Rocha
      Sent: 6 Aug 2013 07:42:00 -0700
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Re: Jerry Payne?

      I think I’m okay not talking to him. Surprised he has not called me yet
      JR

      Sent from my iPhone

      In Reply to…
      On Aug 6, 2013, at 6:39, “Dudley, Mike -FS” wrote…
      Jay, Jimmy,
      See the email below. I’ll let you decide if either of you want to talk to him. l’m not.
      MD ( Mike Dudley )
      =======================================================

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      Reply

    • wwtktt said: ** FRED SCHOEFFLER

      Fred Schoeffler was a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew Superintendent for 26 years.
      An absolute record in the WFF industry.

      MY REPLY- that was why I had to look into Fred more because I was stunned and shocked in recent times how Gary was writing on here to Bob and RTS and so I did some digging and YES RTS is extremely well liked and well approached and respected and a great speaker but there is some in the field who do not like his lock on sole blame and quickly re-direct to the safety rules which to me the common civilian I thought the safety rules matter (don’t they?) and so here I was hearing one area and Bob and RTS made sense than I would hear Gary and I would be scarred or shocked how he can deliver but than in my digging I now see why and NO Gary never in private explained himself and he even publicly asked me how I am coming to that conclusions and so my digging was not led his way but it is public records like this that help me dig…you have to look at history and role of each of these men speaking here and they all have excellent points but which one is really setting the future up for failure by their process/actions— the goal is to firmly get the message out on safety and how can it be done in a world where Mike tells Karels the public don’t get it- we do- on CHANGE…well EDUCATE us Mike…versus saying we don’t GET IT…again when evidence surfaces and I know people like Hall/Abel/Musser/Cordes/Willis/Aerial ATTACK/BR/CYFD/Donut will wish they had spoke up and in recent FOIA request I was told they STILL stick to the SAIR- I gave them the opportunity to speak up…the details to come I know they will wish they were forthcoming from the start. I do not get the whole litigation process..protocols…process…and I think it should be as simple as this person coming forward finally. I would not say this if I did not know where one can find the answers and why the important ones do “know” where to go…and the higher ups know this too-

      I am going to investigate EVERY SINGLE name ( YES EVERY NAME ) on that link to see if ANY are the ones who followed us for that phase in time because that was to be expected as retired smokejumper cia Charlie Moseley warned us but never really imagined it would of happened.

      Reply

    • ** EMAIL REPLIES regarding David Provencio ( CONTINUED )

      Once Mike Dudley made it clear that HE was not the least bit interested in pursuing this ‘conversation’ with former Geronimo Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio… and once SAIT team member Jimmy Rocha also chimed in and told Dudley “I think I’m OK not talking to him, either”…

      …that was pretty much it.

      NONE of the other individuals that Mike Dudley was including on the email chain had anything to say about it… ( as far as we know )… and it was really USFS employee Steve Holdsambeck’s comments ( included whatever he said that has been REDACTED ) that ‘set the tone’ when he responded to Dudley right away with “Obviously you need to be CAREFUL how you respond to this” ( plus his now-REDACTED ‘two possible scenarios’ ).

      Steve Holdsambeck
      Firefighter Safety Program Manager
      U.S. Forest Service – Intermountain Region

      Tom Zimmerman ( contract worker for Dudley and the SAIT ) actually DID respond to Mike Dudley’s email to him where Dudley derided Provencio with his comment “Yep… that’s David P. – all over the place ).

      But Zimmerman had already been CC’ed on the other email where Dudley said he wasn’t the least bit interested in what Provencio had to say… OR the least bit interested in even the DOCUMENTED PROOF that Provencio said he had.

      So even though Zimmerman responded to Dudley’s email… he had no ‘opinon’ on the ‘David Provencio’ thing now and he took the conversation in another direction… like talking with ‘Dean’ about either setting up an FTP folder or getting Arizona Forestry a full HARD DRIVE containing they evidence they had collected.

      Here’s that final exchange between Dudley and Zimmerman…

      ** Misc back and forth between Zimmerman and Dudley about the hard drive.
      ** Zimmerman asked about it on August 5 ( after dudley said ‘Yep… that’s
      ** David P. – all over the place ).
      ** Then Dudley replied to the Zimmerman’s question the next day, August 6.

      =======================================================
      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: 6 Aug 2013 15:45:18 +0000 ( 11:45:17 AM )
      To: Tom Zimmerman
      Subject: RE: Fw: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Tom,

      I just spoke with Dean and he’s good to go. He told me he created a folder on the ftp site that he considered to have the latest of all our files needed. But, he’s still good with you sending him a hard drive, either way works for him.

      MD ( Mike Dudley )

      :Mike ‘Dudley USDA Forest Service mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
      801-540-4881

      Sent from my Blackberry
      =======================================================
      From: Tom Zimmerman
      Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 2:06 PM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Re: Fw: Fwd: Jerry Payne?

      Say did you talk to Dean?
      Can we go ahead and send him the hard drive to load the data on?

      On Aug 5, 2013 11:36 AM, “Dudley, Mike -FS” wrote:

      Yep, that’s Dave P. all over the place.

      Sent from my Blackberry
      ========================================================

      So that was it regarding former Geronimo Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio’s attempt to get Mike Dudley and the SAIT some actual DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of Granite Mountain’s history of making “bad decisions” and Eric’s penchant for “taking risks”.

      No one at the SAIT gave a fuck.

      They didn’t even ASK Provencio to supply the DOCUMENTATION he said he had.

      Next ‘batter up’ was Fred Schoeffler, who was part of the ‘Forwarded’ email exchange between he and David Provencio that kicked off the whole thing.

      Reply

    • ** THE FRED SCHOEFFLER EMAILS TO MIKE DUDLEY AND THE SAIT

      It was actually a few days BEFORE the ‘David Provencio’ emails, when Mike Dudley and the other SAIT members decided they didn’t give a FUCK what David Provencio had to say… or what might have been in the DOCUMENTATION he said he had about Eric Marsh’s ‘risk taking’… that Fred Schoeffler had been the “batter up” in the “human factors” ballgame.

      All of that ended up ‘overlapping’ once the David Provencio email showed up.

      But here are the Fred Schoeffler emails extracted from the FOIA response document.

      It will probably take a few more separate ‘Reply’ messages to get this entire ‘exchange’ posted as well… but here goes…

      ** FRED SCHOEFFLER EMAILS EXTRACTED FROM FOIA-992 PDF FILE

      Fred Schoeffler got the same ‘blow off’ that David Provencio did.

      But THIS time… Mike Dudley at least had enough ‘respect’ for 26 year veteran Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent Fred Schoeffler to ‘forward’ his conclusions on to other members of the team and actually ASK them to ‘comment’.

      And yes.. THIS time ( unlike with David Provencio’s information )… Mike Dudley actually ‘includes’ the SAIT team member Brad Mayhew… who was the ‘human factors’ investigator contracted for the SAIT.

      The “It starts and continues” derisive comment in the response below from USFS employee John Phipps was sent directly to this mysterious Ivan Pupulidy guy, who was NOT a member of the SAIT but now appears to have been the “guiding force” behind its entire narrative.

      Here we see Mike Dudley ‘forwarding’ the first email HE got from Fred Schoeffler to a whole shitload of USFS and SAIT people… including Brad Mayhew, who was the ACTUAL member of the SAIT who was supposed to be looking into the “human factors” causes for the tragedy.

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 155
      =============================================================
      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: 29 Jul 2013 17:53:25 +0000
      To: Brad Mayhew (firelinefactors.com ); Draeger, Randy -FS;Sutton, Larry -FS
      Cc: Apuzzo, Godot -FS;Carbone, lance C -FS;Draeger, Randy -FS;Dudley,
      Mike – FS;jim.karels (at) xxxxxxxxx.com; John.wachter (at) noaa.gov; Jimmy Rocha,
      jrocha (at) xx.xx.ca.us;Kuhn, Robert – FS;Kurth, Jay -FS;lcarbone (at) .com;Manwaring,
      Robert -FS;Petrilli, Anthony C -FS;Phipps, John – FS;rokon (at) ci.xxxxx.mt.us;
      tlfoley (at) xxxxx.com; Tom Zimmerman; Wilson, Richa -FS
      Subject: FW: From Fred Schoeffler – Payson IHC Supt 1981-2007 re: Yarnell Hill Fire

      Brad, Randy,

      Your take from a human factors point of view? Fred has a long and extensive history in R3.

      Mike Dudley
      Acting Director Cooperative Forestry
      USDA Forest Service
      202-205-1602 mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
      Temporary physical address:
      1621 N. Kent St. 9th Floor RPE Arlington, VA, 22209

      From: doug fir
      Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:45 PM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: From Fred Schoeffler – Payson IHC Supt 1981-2007 re: Yarnell Hill Fire

      Mike,

      I know that you are getting a ton of emails on this subject, so I’ll keep it short.

      I was not on this fire, but I have been on several fires in that area; so I can only speak to talking with those that were there and doing my own research. I have been to the fatality site and talked with all the Operations Chiefs last week. This was absolutely a tragedy, no doubt – however it was one that was clearly avoidable.

      I come to no other conclusion than Human Factors and human error on all this. In spite of what the Structural/Wildland folks are saying, this was clearly predictable and therefore clearly preventable. There is a huge split between the Structure/Wildland and the Wildland sides. These GM HS guys really messed up and paid for it with their lives. It’s affected all of us in the wildland fire world. I wasn’t even there, yet I go to sleep thinking about it and wake up thinking about it – and I am not alone on this.

      Why would you leave a perfectly good Safety Zone, travel 3/4 mile down through the unburned green, and into a bowl, without a lookout, in those fire weather/fire behavior conditions? It makes absolutely no sense! Once again, there is no other conclusion besides Human Factors here. But it’s hard to make heroes out of those that messed up fatally. Willis said, “They were in a good location …. they were not satisfied, no wildland fire fighter is satisfied sitting there and watching the fire progress without taking some action.” Say what? As Rax and Linane say, “When the big dog is eating, you let him eat.”

      There were most of the Common Denominators, half of the Ten Orders, and many of the Watch Outs, not to mention several of the Extreme Fire Behavior Indicators listed in the IRPG in place from the start on June 30th. These were completely ignored – fatally.

      What is most disturbing lately, is the posturing that Prescott FD Wildland Chief Darrel Willis and the moron Jim Paxon are spewing to the media on a regular basis as if attempting to rewrite and redefine the wildland fire safety rules. For example, Willis said the day when they hosted the media on-site, things like this: “LCES is emphasized … but there are points during that workday that you don’t have that in place. There are times that you don’t have all these standards in place, especially with them moving like they were. They couldn’t leave anybody behind [ as a lookout].” In another interview, he said it was “impossible to have predetermined escape routes and safety zones. 11 Say what again?

      He suggested Group Think as well stating that “this fire situation was unique in that they all felt the same way and deployed together … ” He stated he would’ve “followed that Crew blindfolded. “In my heart, I know … they were going to protect that ranch. You are going to protect the house and not yourselves. They protect themselves as a last resort. 11 This is a Structural Fire mentality that is dangerously seeping into the wildland realm and needs to be stopped.

      Please ensure your Team comes to the Human Factors conclusion. Thank you for the opportunity to vent.

      Fred Schoeffler
      (xxx) xxx-0926
      =================================================================

      ** REPLIES ( START )

      ** John Phipps does NOT reply directly to Dudley… but FIRST contacts
      ** his ‘sidekick’ Ivan Pupulidy and derides the information from Schoeffler
      ** with the comment “It starts and continues”…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 158
      =================================================================
      From: Phipps, John -FS
      Sent: 29 Jul 2013 18:00:05 +0000
      To: Pup (pupulidy (at) xx.com); Saveland, James -FS
      Subject: FW: From Fred Schoeffler – Payson IHC Supt 1981-2007 re: Yarnell Hill Fire

      It starts and continues .

      NOTE: John Phipps then just ‘dumped’ the entire original email from Mike Dudley which included Fred Schoeffler’s commentary into this email he was sending to his USFS cohort Ivan Pupulidy.
      =======================================================================

      See next ‘Reply’ for more…

      Reply

    • ** THE FRED SCHOEFFLER EMAILS ( CONTINUED )

      About an HOUR later on the same day… ( July 29, 2013 ), Mike Dudley is now seen ‘forwarding’ even more information he is getting from Fred Schoefflervia John Wachter…

      Once again… Dudley is including SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew, who was the one (supposedly) handing the “human factors” part of the SAIT’s Yarnell investigation…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 158
      =====================================================================
      From: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Sent: 29 Jul 2013 18:50:58 +0000
      To: Brad Mayhew ( xxxx (at) firelinefactors.com; Draeger, Randy -FS;Sutton, Larry -FS
      Cc: jim.karels (at) xxxxxxxxxxxx.com; Phipps, John -FS;Wilson, Richa -FS
      Subject: FW: Good military article and another on Groupthink

      More from Fred Schoeffler and follows my earlier email to the whole team.

      Mike Dudley
      Acting Director Cooperative Forestry
      USDA Forest Service
      202-205-1602 mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
      Temporary physical address:
      1621 N. Kent St. 9th Floor RPE Arlington, VA, 22209

      From: John Wachter – NOAA Federal [mailto:john.wachter (at) noaa.gov]
      Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:33 AM
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Fwd: Good military article and another on Groupthink

      Hey there Mike,

      Received this from Fred. I haven’t looked at it yet but thought I would send it to ya. Brent

      ———- Forwarded message ———
      From: doug fir
      Date: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 5:09 PM
      Subject: Good military article and another on Groupthink
      To: “iohn.wachter (at) noaa.gov”

      Brent,

      Please pass this on to the Human Factors on the Yarnell Hill Fire Investigative Team. The GM HS and their fatal actions were clearly under the influence of Groupthink.

      Clink on link below to access article, then on PDF link for research paper.

      http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD A387009

      This is another good article on Groupthink, link below.

      http://www. psysr.org/about/pubs resources/groupthink%20overview .htm

      Fred Schoeffler
      ===============================================================

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      Reply

    • ** THE FRED SCHOEFFLER EMAILS ( CONTINUED )

      ** And here is Charley Martin reporting ( on July 10, 2013 ) to John Holcomb
      ** about a conversation HE had with Fred Schoeffler.
      ** It was ‘forwarded’ to Mike Dudley via Dean Vendrasco…

      Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 296
      ===============================================================
      From: Dean Vendrasco
      Sent: 13 Jul 2013 18:15:53 -0700
      To: Dudley, Mike -FS
      Subject: Fwd: Fred Scheoffler Yarnell Fire Discussion

      You might already have this info … D

      ** Begin forwarded message:

      From: “John Holcomb”
      Date: July 11, 2013 9:09: 18 AM PDT
      To: “‘Dean Vendrasco”‘ , “‘OW CRAYCROFT'” , “‘Lance Honda”‘ , , “‘Ken Paul”‘ , ,
      , “‘Randy Ostman”‘
      Subject: Fred Scheoffler Yarnell Fire Discussion

      Scroll down to the discussion Fred and Charley Martin had. John

      From: charley martin – chmartin07 (at ) xxxxxxxx.xxx ]
      Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:09 AM
      To: John
      Subject: Re: Fred Schoeffler

      No Fred said to share– these are his findings — he went on to say alot more as you can imagine. if anyone wants his contact info for the full version let me know

      On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 10:21 AM, John wrote:

      I have been guessing exactly what you say for about a week now. I had a feeling that by moving they would put them into a position to continue the fire fight. That is the only reason I could see to move unless where they were in the black was just too hot. The other clue was that the lookout was on the move to get a vehicle.That sounded like a logistical operation to continue the fight. Thanks for digging Charley. Do you mind if I share this with my list of cronies? John

      From: charley martin – chmartin07 (at) xxxxxxx.xxx
      Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:29 PM
      To: John Holcomb
      Subject: Fred Schoeffler

      Had a long talk with Fred Scheoffler this afternoon– and as you know (as always) Fred has been digging into the Granite Mtn catastropphy. Sounds like Paul Musser was ops on the fire and Dugger Hughs was in SWCC talking to the fire constantly. From what Fred found out from them and the kid that survived. Yes they were in good Black for quite a while — had it made and decided to cross the green to try and get to the action by the structures at Yarnell. While traversing the green they headed down through a bowl a few miles long and about 1/2 mile wide which is where they wer burned over (the bowl was totally desimated there are picures in the archieves of the Pheonix Sun from Monday the 1st).

      This idea of the safety zone not being big enough was from them knowing they were trapped and trying to cut a deployment zone in desperation. He is not sure the political climate is going to allow the investigation to report the whole truth– it will probably be blamed on erratic environmental conditions. He said lots of old friends wouldn’t even talk to him knowing that he is going to dig for the truth.
      ===============================================================

      So that’s pretty much it for the DAVID PROVENCIO and the FRED SCHOEFFLER emails in this FOIA release.

      Mike Dudley and the SAIT pretty much blew BOTH of them OFF.

      Mike Dudley and the SAIT never even asked David Provencio for the WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION he said he had with regards to Eric Marsh’s apparent penchant for “taking unnecessary risks” on the fireline.

      But we really don’t seem to see ALL of the emails that probably exist with regards to all this. It’s hard to believe with all the people that Mike Dudley was sending this information to ( for both Provencio and Schoeffler )… that those people would not have at least acknowledged receiving that important information OR have had something to say about it.

      Reply

  103. **
    ** MIKE DUDLEY, JIM KARELS, AND THE REST OF THE SAIT WERE OFFERED
    ** EVIDENCE OF GRANITE MOUNTAIN’S PRIOR ‘RISKY BEHAVIOR’… BUT DUDLEY
    ** SAID HE AND THE SAIT WEREN’T INTERESTED IN ANY OF IT.

    Scattered throughout the recent release of ’emails’ from US Forestry is an extended email conversation that took place when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the rest of the SAIT were being offered DOCUMENTED PROOF of Granite Mountain’s reputation for ‘risky behavior’.

    The DOCUMENTED PROOF was being offered by TWO reputable and respected Type 1 IHC Superintendents…

    David Provencio and Fred Schoeffler.

    The testimony and DOCUMENTED PROOF was being offered just about 4 weeks into the original SAIT investigation… starting on August 5, 2013.

    The SAIT report would not be published until September 28, 2013.

    Mike Dudley was passing the information on to many others involved with the SAIT… but we see them ( in the emails ) deciding they ( everyone who was being informed about it ) simply didn’t WANT to (quote) “go there”.

    They purposely and deliberately DECIDED to NOT follow up on ANY this information… or make it any part of their investigation into the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I have put this entire email exchange into ‘chronological order’… and it’s going to take a few ‘Replies’ to this message to show the whole email conversation.

    But first… here are the Type 1 IHC Superintendents that were trying to get this information to Mike Dudley and the SAIT…

    ** DAVID PROVENCIO

    David Provencio became the Superintendent of the Geronimo Hotshots in 2010 and remained in that position for 2 years and 5 months, until October, 2012

    David Provencio’s PUBLIC ‘LinkedIn’ page is here…

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-provencio-jr-01613837
    ——————————————————————————-
    Current…
    ** Fire Science Instructor at Truckee Meadows Community College in Reno, Nevada
    Work experience…
    ** Hot Shot Superintendent – Geronimo IHC
    June 2010 – October 2012 (2 years 5 months)
    ** Helicopter Crew Captain
    Sycuan Fire Department
    May 2007 – November 2007 (7 months)
    Supervised a 26-person helicopter wildland firefighting crew.
    ** Captain on the Fulton Hotshots working under the direction of
    Jim “Scooby” Smith the very first US Forest Service IHC Superintendent.
    ——————————————————————————-

    ** FRED SCHOEFFLER

    Fred Schoeffler was a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew Superintendent for 26 years.
    An absolute record in the WFF industry.

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/fred-schoeffler-5905a4b

    Fred Schoeffler’s PUBLIC ‘LinkedIn’ page is here…

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/fred-schoeffler-5905a4b
    ——————————————————————————-
    Wildland Fire Supervisor at Coconino National Forest
    Flagstaff, Arizona Area – Management Consulting
    Current: Sheff LLC, Coconino National Forest
    Previous: Murphys Fire District (CA), US Forest Service
    Education: Arizona State University
    Work experience…
    Wildland Fire Supervisor
    * Coconino National Forest – April 2010 – Present (6 years 2 months)
    Mostly Safety Officer 2
    * Safety Support Group – Murphys Fire District (CA)
    May 2008 – April 2010 (2 years)
    Wildland Fire Supervisor
    * Hot Shot Crew Superintendent – US Forest Service
    Payson IHCS, Pleasant Valley IHCS, etc.
    April 1981 – May 2007 (26 years 2 months)
    Superior Skill and Daring on wildland fires
    ——————————————————————————-

    The first ‘Reply’ below starts off the email conversation with David Provencio’s first email to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, on August 5, 2013…

    Reply

    • Whoops…. too many LINKS in the previous post and it went into moderation.

      I reposted it and ‘started over’ with another parent comment up above.

      Reply

  104. Nov 7 2013 8:10pm Holly Neill sent the hikers of an email of Dr. Ted Putnam to us-

    She said he was a fire investigator.

    After reading the “purity” of his letter and he joined that group hike I knew he was a trusting man who won’t put out information unless it is what it is-

    pg 2134/2144 is Dr. Ted Putnam and as pure as he is they even deliberately redacted his questions-

    why???

    Dr. Jennifer Ziegler- what is it you wanted to gain from being a part in the YHF SAIT research system for the fire? Do you Dr. Ziegler feel Musser, Abel and Hall cannot offer more to the public in regards to the YHF? a lot of people pick on Donut or Blue Ridge but not much on these men- how come?

    Reply

    • let’s not forget Cordes the hero who claimed to save a life and B33….I think they can add more…

      Reply

  105. 1252/2144
    8-31-13 email from Mike Dudley to John Burfiend

    the confidentiality of this document is critical….let me know when you want to discuss the edits-

    really Mike…EDIT what…

    ??????

    keep this YHF raw and real

    Reply

      • pg 1292/2144 7/27/13 1:45pm

        I do not agree with RTS assessment on human factors UNTIL we SEE and hear all the missing elements first-

        and if anyone READS that link PAY ATTENTION to WHO they are redacting and realize IT IS WHAT IS NOT YET SAID that is most important

        Reply

    • 3-31-14 Mike Dudley says here is an article worth reading—
      it is the one were Cordes PRETENDS FOR MEDIA to save Bryan Smith’s life—really Mike.

      pg 1300/2144

      Reply

  106. **
    ** OPS2 PAUL MUSSER WAS OFFICIALLY WORKING FOR THE ATTORNEY
    ** GENERAL’S OFFICE IN THEIR EFFORTS TO DEFEAT THE LAWSUITS
    ** COMING FROM GRANITE MOUNTAIN FAMILY MEMBERS

    Here is Paul Musser communicating directly with USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley about the ‘investigative’ work he’s doing helping the Arizona Attorney General’s Office ( AG ) defeat the Yarnell lawsuits.

    Mike Dudley’s email response to Musser is also included below.

    The TIMEFRAME on this email from Musser to Dudley actually matches the time where we were discussing, right here on this forum, the Granite Mountain GPS units and the fact that Calvin had already spotted at least ONE of them sitting ‘in plain view’. Calvin spotted that Oregon 450 GPS handheld unit clearly attached to Robert Caldwell’s right pack strap in one of Christopher Mackenzie’s photos taken just hours before they would die… on June 30, 2013.

    It’s also the time we were pointing out on the forum that Brendan McDonough himself actually told ADOSH that Granite Mountain normally had at least 2 or 3 handheld GPS units with them when they went out on assignments.

    If ANY of those GPS units ( including the one Calvin spotted attached to Caldwell’s pack strap ) were ever recovered… then they were NEVER entered as ‘evidence’ in the official YCSO police investigation ( just like Mackenzie’s camera and Eric Marsh’s cellphone ) and they have never seen ‘the light of day’.

    It would appear that Paul Musser was ‘following the conversation’ here on this forum and then felt he better ‘get out ahead of that’ on behalf of the Attorney General’s office and initiate his OWN queries about whether any GPS units really were ever recovered from the deployment site.

    ————————————————————————-
    From: PAUL MUSSER [mailto:dmuss9 (at) xxx.com]
    Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 6:51 PM
    To: Dudley, Mike -FS
    Subject: Yarnell

    Mike I have been doing a lot of work on Yarnell for the AG. A question I have is were any of the Granite Mt GPS units in working order and if so were they checked for track logs or way points from the 30th and what base map they had.

    Paul Musser
    928-853-0530 dmuss9 (at) xxx.com
    ———————————————————————–

    And here is Mike Dudley’s REPLY to Paul Musser…

    NOTE: This is actually Mike Dudley giving Jim Karels ( and others from the SAIT including Randy Okon ) a ‘heads up’ about this exchange with Paul Musser… and Dudley showing Karels exactly how he responded to Musser about the Granite Mountain GPS units.

    Mike Dudley tells Paul Musser they did not have an ‘recoverable GPS data’ from Granite Mountain ( only from Blue Ridge )… but Dudley does not actually SAY, unequivocally, that they didn’t actually recover any GPS units themselves from Granite Mountain. He ( Dudley ) only says they didn’t have any ‘recoverable GPS data’ for GM.

    ———————————————————————–
    From: Dudley, Mike -FS [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 10:22 AM
    To: Karels, Jim; Draeger, Randy -FS; Wilson, Richa -FS
    Subject: FW: Yarnell

    Jim,

    Just letting you know the question I received from Paul Musser and my response back to him. See below.

    Mike Dudley
    Director State & Private Forestry lntermountain I Northern Regions
    801-625-5253 [email protected] h t t p: //www.fs.usda.gov/goto/rlr4spf

    From: Dudley, Mike -FS
    Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 8:21 AM
    To: ‘PAUL MUSSER’
    Subject: RE: Yarnell

    Paul,

    We did not have any GPS records available or recoverable from the GMIHC. The only GPS data came from the BRIHC, their captain like to carry his own personal GPS and he kept that on all day. That data is part of the case file.

    Hope all is well, all things considered. MD

    Mike Dudley

    Director State & Private Forestry lntermountain I Northern Regions
    801-625-5253 [email protected] h t t p: //www.fs.usda.gov/goto/rlr4spf
    ————————————————————————————

    Reply

      • also finding a lot of answers in the parts not IN the reply to John- the places redacted plus I am about done and I see NO communications from the hikers and there was plenty of emails from us-

        ??????

        and foia request too

        ????

        Reply

        • I also noted the lack of condolences for the 19 men when people wrote Forestry. ???? which is what this was all about…

          are those redacted too—some in there but not all?

          Reply

          • 7-15-14 from Larry Sutton -who is the one who said WTF when we emailed him and he asked others- WTF?
            when we were led to him-

            go figure.

            anyways tidbits in this email I actually liked and that is the topic on SAFETY ZONES historically speaking have been too far in distance to their work point-

            total lack of respect we were shown from day one as the hikers who eyewitnessed a deadly fire-

            pg 2083/2144
            thank you Larry

            Reply

  107. http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/073013_granite_mtn_hotshots/official-hotshot-leader-violated-safety-protocols-fatal-yarnell-fire/

    Dean Vandrasco stated John Dougherty should have his nuts cut off on 7-31-13 and look to stand in the unemployment lines…and Mike Dudley says “how to throw fricking gasoline on a fire” and here is above link…

    pg 795/2144

    hey they judge John but look at their redactions/omissions and editing; come on, really folks. Really.

    Reply

    • 1-21-14 Mike Dudley warns Jim Karels not to read ADOSH investigation notes and states “God, they just love to dribble this stuff out. Here comes the next wave of shit.”
      pg 801/2144

      Man, but it’s okay to keep the SHIT in that has not yet surfaced- right Mike and I sure and hope it does not require a subpoena in the end and the stuff just happens to surface—

      Reply

    • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 16, 2016 at 12:42 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> Dean Vandrasco stated John Dougherty should have his nuts cut
      >> off on 7-31-13 and look to stand in the unemployment lines…and Mike
      >> Dudley says “how to throw fricking gasoline on a fire” and here is above link…
      >>
      >> pg 795/2144

      The whole thing with Jim Paxon saying, not long after the tragedy, that it was pretty obvious that MANY of the ‘rules’ of LCES and the 10&18 were obviously violated that day was a BIG DEAL to Mike Dudley and lots of other TOP BRASS at the US Forestry Service.

      It really pissed them off.

      We now see that Dudley himself was highly critical of Paxon… also saying things like “That’s what happens when you let your mouth get disconnected from your brain”.

      And yes… the emails also now show that Dudley and the US Forestry Service TOP BRASS were fairly obsessed with EVERYTHING that was appearing in the MEDIA… and especially with what was ‘coming out’ via John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.

      We actually SEE the ‘interactions’ now that went on when John Dougherty was the first one to specifically request ALL of the ‘VIDEOS’ that might have been shot by Aaron Hulburd of the USFS Prescott National Forest. They KNEW they had these videos all along ( and they had ALSO supplied ALL of them to Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT long before anyone knew they existed. We also see the ‘effort’ that was then made to ‘coordinate’ the release of the videos in response to John Dougherty’s request.

      We’ve know it all along… but the way they decided to ‘stay on top of the story’ and ‘control the damage’ when the existence of the full 21 videos became public knowledge… was to concoct this LIE that it was Arizona Forestry itself that had requested the videos from the USFS… just so they could coordinate a publication of the videos on the Arizona Forestry website BEFORE giving them to InvestigativeMEIDA.

      That way… they could “get out ahead of the story” and cover up the fact that if it hadn’t been for John Dougherty’s FOIA request… those videos would still have never seen the light of day. They wanted it to ‘LOOK LIKE’ it was Arizona Forestry that had requested them ( even though Mike Dudley and the SAIT had ALWAYS had them in their possession ).

      They wanted to ‘break the story’ from a source they could CONTROL ( Arizona Forestry ), and then have THAT ‘story’ be picked up by the Mainstream Media ( MSM )… instead of allowing the ‘news to break’ from the the original-requesting-source… Investigative Media’.

      And it WORKED.

      The story indeed went VIRAL in the MSM right away… but ever MSM outlet was then reporting what they THOUGHT was the ‘the truth’… that USFS had released the videos in response to a request from Arizona Forestry.

      No one ever found out ( until now ) that Mike Dudley and the SAIT had ALWAYS had ALL of the Aaron Hulburd videos in their posession… and they were part of the entire ‘evidence’ record… and there was never any need at all for ‘Arizona Forestry’ to ‘request’ them from the US Forestry Service.

      By the time the story went VIRAL… and the MSM was reporting that the videos were already sitting on that whipped-up web page on the Arizona Forestry website… the fact that the ORIGINAL request for all those Hulburd videos had come from John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA ( and NOT Arizona Forestry ) just got “lost in the noise”.

      Exactly the way they ( USFS and Arizona Forestry ) planned it.

      >> Joy A. Collura also said…
      >>
      >> hey they judge John but look at their redactions/omissions and
      >> editing; come on, really folks. Really.

      In most of the ‘green box’ redactions in these emails… they actually try to list the FOIA exemption they are (supposedly) claiming for why the content of those emails is totally REDACTED ( even though they leave the email headers so you can see WHO was communicating with WHO… but you just can’t see what those emails were SAYING ).

      MOST of their redactions in these 2000+ emails are based on two standard FOIA exemption claims…

      1. Attorney/Client Privilege
      2. The Deliberative process.

      The first one is pretty easy to understand ( and is generally allowed with regards to FOIA responses )… but the second one is ‘tricky’.

      Normally… the ‘Deliberative Process’ FOIA exemption would be claimed in tangent with ‘Attorney/Client’ privilege… but usually ONLY in the case where some kind of actual LEGAL Court proceeding or Court case is involved.

      What the ‘Deliberative Privilege’ FOIA exemption claim really means is that while you might have to release ‘conclusions’ being reached by PUBLIC employees with regards to some legal proceeding… you don’t have to show all of the ‘Deliberations’ that might have led to that final conclusion.

      It would also normally be ‘claimed’ by a PUBLIC Board that had elected to go into ‘Executive Session’ during one of its normal PUBLIC Board meetings. That’s when they are allowed to either ask the PUBLIC to leave a meeting for a moment, or go into a closed room, in order to DISCUSS something.

      When they come back out of the room ( and in the minutes of the meeting )… the PUBLIC is allowed to see the result of their ‘Deliberations’ behind closed doors… but the actual ‘Deliberations’ that took place during the ‘Executive Session’ are still ‘exempt’ from the PUBLIC minutes, and not directly ‘reachable’ via an FOIA request.

      There are actually good reasons for that kind of ‘Deliberative Privilege’ exemption for FOIA requests at all levels of ‘government’ ( Municipal, County, Stage and Federal ).

      However… for US Forestry to be trying to make that ‘Deliberative Process’ FOIA exemption claim in these emails just because they still don’t want anyone to see what they were saying to each other about how the SAIT report should come out… is BULLSHIT.

      That is an ‘abuse’ of the ‘Deliberative Privilege’ FOIA exemption.

      This wasn’t a COURT CASE or a LEGAL PROCEEDING or the ‘Executive Session’ portion of a PUBLIC BOARD MEETING.

      This was a totally taxpayer funded service organization looking into the causes of a terrible fatal accident in a workplace where their own FEDERAL employees were directly involved.

      The ‘Deliberative Privilege’ process does NOT apply here.

      But that was the best thing the USFS lawyers could come up with as an ‘excuse’ to allow someone to ‘BLACK OUT’ everything in these emails that would show USFS employees trying to influence the content of the Arizona Forestry subcontracted SAIT investigation.

      Reply

      • ** HUGE CORRECTION FOR THE PREVIOUS POST

        It was NOT ‘Jim Paxon’ who was the first to report that there seemed to be obvious violations of LCES and the 10&18 with regards to the Yarnell Incident ( as I typed up above ).

        It was Arizona Forestry Deputy Director Jerry Payne.

        Reply

  108. pg 681/2144 7-29-13 “it sort of blows your mind that there would be hikers back there that day.”

    Well. let’s rehash here Mikey-
    On that Saturday the Yarnell firefighter with black hair and big built said you all had it under control and ok to hike.
    We did hike all that week mind you as well-
    but reason for Sunday is AS THE DESERT WALKER I know the very people who normally in cooler temps stay in Stanton area to prospect or stay and in hotter temps hide out in the cooler elevations from leaving elevation 3,000 to 5,600- you get it so we alerted folks; you had your eyes on the fire and we had ours on humans.

    I cannot tell you HOW MANY in the firefighting industry have thanked us for being on the Weavers that day- that maybe finally things might change being we are not firefighters and we don’t have to hide under gags and such—and that maybe my photos would help but you and Prescott FD had no real interest in hearing us or having us a part on staff rides or walk it with us like ADOSH did-

    Reply

      • 12-4-13 11:15pm- Sonny, Joy and you email

        ????

        page 752/2144

        you knew that was going to make Jim Karels day, Mikey?

        really?

        it is serious…how does Jim sleep at night?

        Reply

    • 7-11-13 email from Roy Hall- pg 786/2144

      The Journey…

      I would love to hear MORE of that JOURNEY from Musser and Abel and You

      Reply

    • Right Joy–I would not have gone that Sunday but your reasons for going were valid. Too bad we did not get up there on Friday with a couple of shoves and a grubbing hoe. That fire would have been contained in the small area of boulders where it started.

      What we do not understand is how we witnessed by 11am was a wild fire that no amount of ground troops could have made a whit of difference if they engaged it–except a certain loss of life if you were anywhere near that fire and it decided to overtake you. With all the radio, heliocopter and airplane traffic, many atvs, other troops on the ground beside that crew one would believe they were safe just staying in the black and watching the fireworks. I think they thought that as well but someone reminded them of their hybrid status and knew as well these fellows were game (at least their bosses were) to risk it all to save structures.

      One reporter was detested because he did purposely risk going in to and area to observe and photograph wild land fire fighters at work. Michael Chen I believe was the one–Arizona Republic. I count him as doing his job and the right thing. If he is willing to risk it then he can keep track of mistakes and give us a close up observation of how things are being done. This will keep the bosses more alert to do the right things and result in saving lives. The press is needed to keep people honest and to deny someone willing to risk his life to save others makes him a hero in my book. We after all allow the press on the front battle lines at war–and the public has this right to know what is going on with their millions of tax dollars spent on these wild fire efforts.

      This is free America and anyone that wishes to engage a fire of age should be allowed to engage a fire-not my thing, but if your go for it. If you are stupid enough to try to flank a wild fire in manzanita, I won’t stop you–you have the god given inalienable right to risk your life–but when it comes to risking other lives as we saw with the bosses at Yarnell, you do not have that right. If you do and they get hurt or killed then you have some accounts to settle. If you had killed my son, I would want you to pay and not just monetarily–and rightfully so since you are apt to continue in an occupation where you do not belong.–You should be excluded from any occupation where you are able to risk others lives because of your position due to your negligent attitude and disregard for those below your station. In truth you should be the one on the bottom and that might include some incarceration for your lack of respect of life by your propensity to risk your subordinates.

      Mike Dudley is obviously hoping that this incident will fade away with no blame. Pages and pages of information redacted, his words and actions, and he of course is not the only one. But the people that lost their sons, brothers, and friends are owed the truth. The millions of tax payer dollars spent means these people that have cover up so much are servants of the people. They work for us and have no business hiding information from the citizen. This is information that only they can be privy to. The information, all of it belongs to the tax paying public and should by no means be redacted or anyone gagged. Yet you would think we have people that think they are privileged like some CIA operative. They are not and to hide information as we have seen here only blights their system.

      Citizen be prepared to take care of the next lightening strike. Even though the tax payer is footing the payrolls, pensions, machinery, and equipment you can see that these local Fire Departments are not apt to take care of a lightening strike–even if it is in extreme conditions requiring immediate attention. Don’t be afraid–My Dad and I did on more than one occasion take action and contain burning trees hit by ligtening–and three in one day once. He was in his 40’s and I was a teenager –14 or 15.

      Reply

    • 675/2144 funny Jim Karel 🙂
      2-1914 email cracked me up-

      Your experts have no problem doing the same..can anyone say TWISP fire after YHF???? So don’t make fun of media reported experts when your own experts do not have it in sync as well-

      Reply

      • These emails make it perfectly clear that to the United States Forestry Service… the MEDIA is ( always ) THE ENEMY.

        If they could do something about that pesky little “Freedom of the Press” stuff in the Constitution… they probably would.

        They ( USFS ) don’t want to have to ANSWER to ANYONE.

        Just give us the billions and billions and billions of dollars every year… and then go away and shut-the-fuck-up and leave us alone.

        Reply

  110. 643/2144 is funny 🙂
    Randy Draeger wants to suggest suing the media for mental anguish for half truths but ain’t that what we been fed- the public- half truths and omissions and redactions- serious Randy?

    Reply

      • page 216/2144 is interesting from David Provencio 805-798-5635 [email protected] 8-5-13

        we know RTS heard from above but did you John? This man turned down work with Marsh- so Gary Olsen after you read the email maybe there is some tidbit you can add in here because all the evidence leads to what you talk about more than RTS but what if RTS and Bob are sharing information as they are based on people coming to them like David???

        Reply

        • page 219/2144- why would Michael Kodas be CC’d by John MacLean…hmmm…quite interesting. That just shows me John MacLean had a lot from his email addy be a part of the hikers’ lives—see the information from how many different perceptions? interesting. You do not need others perceptions when we have always been there to answer the questions from day one unlike others-

          Reply

    • page 296/2144 July 11, 2013

      funny how John Holcomb says can he share the Fred Schoeffler info. with his cronies?

      🙂

      Reply

    • 615/2144 is Kyle Dickman’s intro to writing his book—so he can fact check there but not with the hikers on his book???

      go figure-

      Reply

  113. In June 25 2014 email Alan Sinclair—why would Eric Marsh’s long time friend and who Holly brought on a hike with me be a part of this team to get information- is he part of the commandment team?

    good to see Aug 25 2013 IM is mentioned on lengthy article…this site is the longest lasting blog area besides social media areas I will never join up but even there it is monitored and edited— I am seeing a lot of names of familiarity in our journey of people who did not say they were a part of the investigation process when in our path-

    Reply

      • what is sickening- I thought I would have a small list of addendum names to look into- this is a sick joke that so many know more behind the scenes and they can’t call a loved one and say something…

        Reply

        • interesting email 7-26-13 from Willis on topic AZ DPS were sued and lost and Paxon told him. I also think that was the week someone he knows who we met out on the Weavers said Willis looks like he might crack or talk-
          page 109/2144
          but then he went on a vacation to get away from it all-

          I wonder how John felt when he finally got this much redacted file months ago?

          Reply

          • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 16, 2016 at 9:13 am

            >> Joy A. Collura said…
            >>
            >> interesting email 7-26-13 from Willis on topic AZ DPS
            >> were sued and lost and Paxon told him.

            Yes. When the Arizona Department of Public Safety finally had to fulfill the ‘Arizona Open Records’ request for the ‘Incident Reports’ from the crew of DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 ( Officers Brunsting, Clifford and Tarr )… Darrell Willis was PISSED that DPS just released the information without notifying HIM. His JOB, at that point, was apparently ‘fronting’ for the families and he felt like if he couldn’t control what information was going to be hitting the streets he couldn’t do that job.

            So he said he needed a ‘few weeks away from all this’, to come ‘back at it’ with a new attitude.

            Reply

            • when I read it and have met him and all and Sonny always felt I was bias towards Willis but I just felt an unease like “oh shit”…it did not settle well reading that email.

              Also Joanna Dodder’s emails was on a day Sonny and I were not in sync because of a recent hike on topic of a bag- I always liked Joanna as a human being but always knew her stance in this from day one. I always felt the Daily Courier did not share it as the YHF should of been represented-

              Reply

  114. **
    ** INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA RELEASES 2,000 PAGES OF UNITED STATES FORESTRY
    ** SERVICE EMAILS RELATED TO YARNELL

    InvestigativeMEDIA
    Article Title: InvestigativeMEDIA releases Forest Service records on Yarnell Hill Fire
    Posted: May 15, 2016 By John Dougherty
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/investigativemedia-releases-forest-service-records-on-yarnell-hill-fire/

    From the article…
    ———————————————————————————-
    InvestigativeMEDIA is releasing more than 2,000 pages of records obtained from the U.S. Forest Service under a Federal Freedom of Information Act request in connection with the Yarnell Hill fire.

    The records are located here…
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/joyscchxf0q7pal/Dougherty%202015-FS-WO-00992-F.pdf?dl=0
    ———————————————————————————-

    There are some VERY interesting US Forestry emails in this release… including the ones where US Forestry employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley is communicating with all of the Yarnell Hill Fire SAIT members and saying that he did (quote) “Everything he possibly could” to PREVENT Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00265.MOV video ( the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video ) from ever ‘seeing the light of day’.

    Reply

    • I called him out when I heard him speak long ago…SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley is a wonderful speaker but dangerously teaching the wrong information-

      Reply

      • I am paying close attention to who and where they are coming from and who met with us since the fire—a lot don’t know this but in the start for a long time we were followed so now I can look at the addendum names and see if any match to who we saw following us- so at first take that is my interest than go from there…

        also if Typ6 is right and Brendan has been coming to IM the past few years than why if his book is a truth and tell all book was IM not mentioned in his book?

        Reply

  115. **
    ** BRENDAN’S VERSION OF THE ‘MAYDAY’ RADIO TRAFFIC

    Since I already showed below how badly New York Times Arizona Correspondent turned author Fernanda Santos manged to fuck up the reporting of the crucial Yarnell MAYDAY radio traffic… I thought it only fair to also show how badly Brendan McDonough fucked it up in HIS ‘new book’ as well.

    And when I say ‘Brendan’ got it wrong… it’s because he is touting himself as the AUTHOR of this book… and he also says he read it 15 times in 48 hours before then ‘approving’ it ( and everything in it ) and said it was ‘ready to be printed’ for the whole world to read.

    If it was actually only co-author Stephan Talty who ‘messed this up’… then it’s still ‘on Brendan’ and he needs to ‘own it’. That’s how co-authoring works.

    Oddly enough… Brendan is now trying to say that Eric Marsh had the ability to imitate at least two other ‘voices’ besides his own… and Brendan is now attributing ALL ( except just one? ) of the MAYDAY radio traffic callouts to Eric Marsh himself… including the following two CRITICAL transmissions…

    1. The first “We are in front of the flaming front” emergency call.

    Brendan ( or Talty? ) says that was Eric Marsh himself.

    2. The third time they tried to get Air Attack ‘Bravo 33′ ( John Burfiend ) to stop ignoring their frantic calls… and the radio call that John Burfiend would then respond to with his own STFU ( “Whoever is hollerin’ on the radio, I need you to QUIT ).

    Brendan ( or Talty? ) says that was ALSO Eric Marsh himself.

    Actually… if you read what Brendan’s book says here carefully.. the text is now attributing pretty much ALL of the attempts to contact ‘Bravo 33’ to Eric Marsh, except maybe for just one callout. Even in the passage below where it first says one of the callouts was from an ‘unidentified member of the crew’… the very next sentence is then saying that it was, in fact, Eric Marsh.

    It also goes without saying that it was not ( as Brendan/Talty reports ) the PILOT of ‘Bravo 33’ who was first ignoring Granite Mountain, and then was telling them to ‘Stop shouting’. The PILOT of ‘Bravo 33’ was Thomas French. John Burfiend was just ‘along for the ride’ in the right seat of the plain, and ATGS Trainee Clint Cross was in the ‘Bravo 33’ jumpseat.

    NOTE: This is not the COMPLETE SECTION from Brendan’s book where he describes the MAYDAY radio traffic. For the sake of brevity, some of the ‘narrative’ sections also included are removed so that this is just Brendan’s own pure reporting on the MAYDAY radio transmissions themselves.

    But it IS the complete text from Brendan’s book from the first “We are in front of the flaming front” emergency call to Marsh’s final “Affirm”…

    * Page 219 of Brendan’s new book “My Lost Brothers”
    —————————————————————————–
    At 4: 39, I was sitting in the truck when I heard Eric’s voice struggling through the static:

    “Breaking in on Arizona Sixteen, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.”

    My heart froze. I’d never heard Eric’s voice like this— panicked, anguished. And the words “in front of the flaming front.” How was that even possible? Granite Mountain was supposed to be in the cold black, up on a ridge, with acres of black behind them. Untouchable. How could the wall of fire have caught them?

    The transmission caused confusion in Yarnell. “Is Granite Mountain still in there?” a firefighter listening to the transmissions called out.

    “Well, they’re in a safety zone,” another answered. “In the black.”

    The fire must have appeared over the ridge to Granite Mountain’s left. It had also cut off the canyon’s mouth ahead of them. The escape route to the ranch was disappearing. There might have been a small opening to the west, hard by the canyon wall, but the flames were closing it quickly.

    “I hear ’saws running,” said a firefighter listening in. “That’s not good.”

    A voice broke in on the radio. The transmission was broken into fragments, but you could make it out: “Air-to-ground Sixteen, Granite Mountain. Air Attack, how do you read?”

    It was an unidentified member of Granite Mountain.

    A supervisor responded: “Granite Mountain, Operations on air-to-ground.”

    A few seconds later, a panicked voice: “Air Attack, Granite Mountain Seven, how do you copy me?”

    No rescue team could reach nineteen men in a box canyon with a wildfire bearing down on them. The only hope for relief was from the air: If a tanker could spot the crew and lay a line of retardant over them, it might buy them a little time. So Eric was calling to Air Attack, presumably to ask for a drop. But ASM2 thought Granite Mountain was in the black and safe.

    Eric was back on the radio: “Air Attack, Granite Mountain Seven!” He was yelling now. The pilot unaware of what was happening— cut in and told him to stop shouting.

    Another firefighter said, “That’s not good.”

    “No, he’s screaming,” another agreed.

    A supervisor called to the pilot. “Okay, Granite Mountain Seven sounds like they got some trouble. Uh, go ahead and get that, he’s trying to get you on the radio, let’s go ahead and see what we’ve got going on.”

    The pilot copied that.

    Before he could call Granite Mountain, Eric was back. His voice was calmer. “Division Alpha with Granite Mountain.” He was still trying to establish contact.

    The pilot called back, “Okay, uh, Division Alpha.”

    In the two or three seconds that elapsed with the pilot’s response, something changed again. Eric’s voice was again bordering on shouting. ’Saws were ripping in the background. “Yeah, I’m here with Granite Mountain Hotshots, our escape route has been cut off. We are preparing a deployment site and we are burning out around ourselves in the brush and I’ll give you a call when we are under the sh-shelters.”

    I felt sick. This cannot be happening, I thought. I wanted to scream into the radio.

    Granite Mountain had realized by then that they couldn’t make the ranch.

    I was speechless. I felt as if my nightmare from the Doce Fire— of being trapped by intense flames— was coming true. But it was happening to my brothers.

    In the canyon, the hotshots were cutting in a crude circle while swampers rushed to drag the brush to the perimeter and throw it as far as they could. Guys were running at the edge of the circle, dripping fire onto the brush, trying to burn out a ring around themselves. As the fire roared a hundred feet high and they knew it was seconds from blowing through the circle, they heaved back and threw their ’saws deep into the thick brush. The small amount of oil inside the ’saws, if ignited, would add only a tiny fraction of heat to the firestorm that was as big as an apartment block. But this is what they were trained to do.

    Their minds were being starved of oxygen, confused by toxic fumes pushed ahead of the flames.

    The pilot copied. “So you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”

    At 4: 42, Eric: “AFFIRM!”
    —————————————————

    That’s it. Forever ‘in print’ now.

    So I guess it’s time for a vote.

    Of the TWO ( count ’em, TWO ) books that came out last week about the Yarnell Hill Fire… which one managed to fuck up the reporting of the crucial MAYDAY radio traffic WORSE?

    1. Was it New York Times Arizona Correspondent turned author Fernanda Santos, and her claim that the first MAYDYA call came at 4:33 PM ( and not the already-proven 4:39 PM time ) and also her claim that the second ’emergency’ call was actually John Burfiend immediately responding to the first “We are in front of the flaming front” call ( thereby erasing all suggestion that John Burfiend really DID ignore Granite Mountain for upwards of 2 and 1/2 minutes until being ORDERED by OPS1 Todd Abel to respond to them )?

    2. Or was it Sole Survivor Brendan McDonough ( and/or co-author Stephan Talty ), who now want us to believe that it was almost ONLY Eric Marsh being heard on the radio in this entire sequence and that he ended up ONLY finally ‘conversing’ with the PILOT of ‘Bravo 33’… Thomas French?

    Personally… I think maybe we should decide to ‘split’ the coveted “Who Can Fuck Up A Video Recorded Radio Capture Worse” Award this year and decide that there are TWO WINNERS.

    Reply

    • OR Divert the responsibility of the move to OPS1 Todd Abel?????
      The whole thing is to make his guys Crew and Marsh and Steed Heroes.
      To believe any thing that McDonough says at this point is to follow his game.
      I think he has decided to not give any one any thing that will hurt the memory of the Granit Mountain Hot Shots. As long as Blue Ridge stays quiet on the subject he has free rain.

      IT IS WHAT IT IS

      Reply

    • Wtktt,

      Thanks for reading these two books so we don’t have to. I will wait until Maclean puts his out, as I believe it will be meticulously researched and won’t confuse my impressions of what really happened.

      As for Brendan, it seems that both his memory and motivations are all messed up, and even he has no idea what really happened any more. In 2013, he was a callow young man of about 20, in thrall of this brotherhood who had chosen little old him as a member. Hearing him speak, it seems he was not very self aware when the entrapment occurred, not very clear on procedure or plan. His character then was not fully formed (lord knows mine wasn’t at that age), and now it seems that he is being seduced by the cult of minor celebrity like some teenage reality “star.”

      He’s doing a dog and pony show to sell his book to people who don’t care about the facts anyway, just the emotion. Eventually, the book will be made into a movie by writers who will barely read the book anyway. It would be nice if there were more dignity about the whole process, but as Bob Powers says, it is what it is.

      Reply

      • Have to say I ‘agree’ with your analysis and pretty much everything you just said.

        Very well spoken, thank you.

        I think Brendan is just proving that old adage from Mark Twain…

        “I always tell the truth. That way I don’t have to remember what I said”.

        It’s all gotten “way too deep” for Brendan… and at this point I don’t think he actually remembers what the fuck he said ( or didn’t say ) to who, and when.

        The LIES are all mixed up with the TRUTH now… even in his OWN head.

        But I would still love to know what at least THREE men who have their OWN high reputations now think about Brendan basically calling them all LIARS…

        1. Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini.
        2. Former Prescott Fire Chief and Wildland Division Chief Darrel Willis.
        3. Former Type 1 IHC Hotshot turned author Kyle Dickman.

        Brendan actually spent the better part of a YEAR working closely with Kyle Dickman on that first book… and a lot of what Kyle Dickman trusted as the ‘truth’ coming from Brendan has now been totally contradicted in Brendan’s own book.

        I’ll bet Kyle Dickman is pretty PISSED right about now.

        Brendan has made all THREE of these highly-respected men look like FOOLS.

        Bottom line here is that I think BOTH of the books that just came out were written by the respective authors for one purpose only…

        To make THEMSELVES feel better.

        So again… “Buyer beware”.

        Reply

        • Reply to wildfire65 post on May 16, 2016 at 7:02 pm

          >> wildfire65 said…
          >>
          >> the movie crew is scouting sites here as we speak…

          Are you in New Mexico?

          A few weeks ago… the ‘New Mexico Film Board’ website was pretty much ‘announcing’ they were sure that a LOT of the Kosinksi “No Exit” movie was going to be shot in New Mexico.

          Reply

  116. **
    ** BRENDAN CONTRADICTS HIMSELF IN HIS OWN BOOK REGARDING
    ** WHAT HE KNEW ABOUT GRANITE MOUNTAIN’S MOVEMENTS

    I posted about this below in a message called “FOLLOW THE BOUNCING BRENDAN”, but I didn’t have time to post the actual supporting references from Brendan’s new book.

    So for the sake of completeness… here is Brendan ‘contradicting’ himself in his own book.

    * Page 210

    Brendan says “We all believed they were moving toward it ( the Boulder Springs Ranch )”.

    —————————————————-
    The crew was now near where I’d left them, on the ridge where they’d set the backfires. They were heading southeast toward Boulder Springs Ranch, which Eric had picked out as the crew’s safe zone that morning. Their route was along the two-track road, which wasn’t a direct one; it curved around in a semicircle. Around this time, I heard Eric’s voice on the radio. Calm, deliberate. “I want to pass on that we’re going to make our way to our escape route.” My gut tightened. “You guys are in the black, correct?” the Blue Ridge super shot back. “Yeah, we’re picking our way through the black… going out toward the ranch.” Blue Ridge super: “To confirm, you’re talking about the road you saw me on with the UTV earlier, in the bottom?” Eric again: “Yes, the road I saw you on with the Ranger.” The conversation ended. The Boulder Spring Ranch, the bombroof area that Granite Mountain had scouted that morning, was 1.6 miles away. We all believed they were moving toward it.
    —————————————————–

    “We ALL believed they were moving toward it ( the Boulder Springs Ranch )”

    WTF?

    That doesn’t match what Bill Gabbert said in HIS review of Brendan’s book…

    Wildfire Today
    Article Title: Lone survivor from Yarnell Hill Fire publishes book
    Published: April 25, 2016 – By Bill Gabbert
    http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/04/25/lone-survivor-from-yarnell-hill-fire-publishes-book/

    From Bill Gabbert’s review of Brendan’s new book “My Lost Brothers”…
    ———————————————————————————-
    Mr. McDonough wrote in the book:

    “I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.
    The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
    ———————————————————————————-

    But even Bill Gabbert didn’t point out that he, himself, was just ‘cherry picking’ from Brendan’s book and only printing ONE of the ‘contradictions’ coming ( now ) out of Brendan’s ‘own mouth’.

    McDonough actually DOES say what Bill Gabbert said he did… just a 8 pages ahead…

    On page 218 of McDonough’s book…
    —————————————————-
    We were driving toward the restaurant on Route 89. I spotted the place, with its wide parking lot cleared of brush, with no scrub oak to burn. As I pulled into the lot, I saw firefighters sitting on the ground, spent, and old people laid out on stretchers. But where was Granite Mountain? I had no idea they’d moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else. The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.
    —————————————————-

    Then ( astonishingly ), just 12 pages later, Brendan goes BACK to saying he ( and others ) were SURE that Granite Mountain WAS definitely OUT of the safe black and definitely ‘heading to the Boulder Springs Ranch’.

    On page 230… Brendan is now ‘narrating’ the progress of the ‘ground rescue mission’.

    He ( Brendan ) says that when Helicopter Ranger 58 first discovered the ‘bladder bags’, they ( or someone else ) asked HIM on the radio if they belonged to Granite Mountain.

    Brendan said “No”… and then someone else ( also over the radio? ) finally asked Brendan if he knew WHERE they might be.

    Now (suddenly) Brendan is once again SURE that they had NOT been ‘in the black’ and SHOULD have been heading towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    From page 230…
    —————————————————————————-
    The crew of a helicopter known as Ranger 58 heard the radio traffic and loaded medical gear into the cabin before taking off at 5: 16 p.m. They flew to the last reported position of Granite Mountain and hovered over the smoke-enshrouded hill. They spotted what looked like a backpack pump— a tank and hose that hotshots can carry into the initial attack— dropped at a nearby helispot. They reported their finding on the radio. Did it belong to Eric?

    They asked me over the radio if Granite Mountain carried backpack pumps.

    “No, we didn’t have them today,” I said. It had to be from someone else.

    “Any idea where they are?”

    I told them the crew SHOULD have been on the two-track going toward Boulder Springs, unless they’d broken off and headed north toward the other ranches in the black.

    The radio buzzed with static.

    “Can you give me the names of everyone with them?”

    I started to recite the names of my brothers.
    —————————————————–

    So here is the ROUNDUP’ of Brendan’s own ‘contradictions’ within pages of each other in his book… which he has now said he read 15 times in 48 hours and then gave his full ‘approval’ for it to ‘head to print’…

    * Page 210

    “The Boulder Spring Ranch, the bombroof area that Granite Mountain had scouted
    that morning, was 1.6 miles away. We all believed they were moving toward it.”

    * Page 218

    “I had no idea they’d moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.”

    * Page 230

    “I told them the crew should have been on the two-track going toward Boulder Springs”.

    I can almost understand Brendan ( and his publishers ) deciding to not lift a finger to even explain what happened regarding the Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini reporting what Brendan had told Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.

    Brendan is basically now calling BOTH of them ( AND former Hotshot turned author Kyle Dickman ) LIARS… so the least said there the better as far as ‘book sales’ go… I suppose…

    …but to leave these ‘contradictions’ about what Brendan ( and others ) knew ( or didn’t know ) about GM’s movements that afternoon just ‘digs the hole deeper’ for Brendan.

    If Brendan thought this book was supposed to “put to rest” ( once and for all ), any talk about what he did or didn’t know… or did or didn’t hear over the radio that afternoon… then Brendan has failed to reach that goal.

    He’s only now ADDED to the ‘questions’ by allowing these ‘contradictions’ to go to print in his own book.

    Reply

  117. **
    ** BRENDAN MCONOUGH DEFINITELY SAYS OPS2 PAUL MUSSER ASKED
    ** ERIC MARCH TO ‘REDEPLOY’ GRANITE MOUNTAIN TO YARNELL…

    I’m still finishing my ‘fact checking’ of BOTH of the new ‘Yarnell’ books that came out last week…
    McDonough book… and I will continue to post what I have so far.

    The following is not actually an ERROR in Brendan McDonough’s new book “My Lost Brothers”… but it qualifies as ‘new information’ coming from him.

    Something he has never ‘testified’ to or never even acknowledged HEARING that day.

    It’s an ( apparent ) reference to what OPS2 Paul Musser called his “availability check” on Granite Mountain that he made at exactyl 3:42 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… while Musser was on Sickles Ranch Road and over-seeing the structure protection efforts there.

    In his ADOSH interviews… OPS2 Paul Musser said he never actually ASKED Eric Marsh or Granite Mountain to do anything specific… that he was just “checking on their availability” circa 3:42 PM.

    Well… not according to Brendan McDonough.

    Brendan says ( unequivocally ) in his ‘new book’ that OPS2 Paul Musser DID ask Marsh if Granite Mountain could ‘relocate’ to town.

    Brendan does not put a time on this but we know it was circa 3:42 PM, just after Marsh had reported ( to someone other than Musser ) that the fire had burned through the retardant line and was now headed for Yarnell.

    From page 202 of Brendan McDonough’s book “My Lost Brothers”…
    ——————————————————————————
    A supervisor reached Eric on the radio. Eric relayed that the lines of retardant dropped by the tankers had been compromised: The fire had burned right through them. The supervisor asked Eric if he could redeploy Granite Mountain into Yarnell, to try to save the town. The answer came back: negative. The crew was in the black. They were staying where they were.
    ———————————————–

    SIDENOTE: At the same time OPS2 Paul Musser told ADOSH he never asked Marsh or Granite Mountain to do anything specific at all… Musser was adamant in his testimony to ADOSH that there was NO discussion of ‘the black’ when he talked to Marsh circa 3:42. Paul Musser characterized the conversation as simply him asking Marsh if he ( and GM ) were still “committed to the ridge” ( not the black )… and Marsh said yes… they were still “committed to the ridge” and the same assignment they’d been working on all day.

    It, of course, remains one of the greatest ‘mysteries’ of the incident how Eric Marsh could be giving an Operations Section Chief the impression that Granite Mountain wasn’t ‘going anywhere’… but then ( just minutes later ) Eric Marsh is known to have been “scouting ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch”… and would eventually tell Jesse Steed to bring the crew down, regardless of the danger.

    It is pretty much accepted as a ‘fact’ now that when Eric Marsh is heard talking to the other OPS… Todd Abel, at 3:50 PM… ( and is heard slighty-out-breath and ‘hiking’ at the same time he is talking to Abel ) and saying to him “I’m workin’ my way off the top”… that he was ALREADY on his way towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    That’s just 8 minutes after ( apparently ) giving the other OPS the impression that they were still “committed to the ridge” and were not AVAILABLE for a relocation.

    But now… according to Brendan McDonough… what HE heard on the radio at 3:42 PM was…

    “The supervisor asked Eric if he could redeploy Granite Mountain into Yarnell, to try to save the town.”

    Period. End of sentence.

    That is what Brendan either wrote himself… or is the direct testimony he gave to his co-writer Stephan Talty about what HE heard over the radio… and it’s now ‘forever in print’ in a book that Brendan himself says he read 15 times in 48 hours and then gave his ‘full approval’ for it to ‘go to print’.

    Reply

  118. What is disturbing is needless mean spirit or lack of compassion.

    Brendan McDonough disclosed publicly that he struggled not to commit suicide due to the pain after the Yarnell Hill Fire. The mean spirit to him here bothers me.

    Utter lack of compassion from Charlie and WantsToKnowTheTruth. Yet Charlie’s child committed suicide or drug overdose but he jumps on Brendan here.

    Brendan or his friends are reading these websites. Checking this site for years has been something regular for me. One way to ask a question of Brendan is to email or write a letter.

    Reply

    • Okay.

      Dear Brendan’s anonymous pal,

      I do not have your address or email but someone reads this page and stated Charlie’s son.committed suicide or overdose and I knowing their completed family unit I am stunned by comments and.wonder what Charlie’s reply will be on that. So if you know Brendan is there anyone besides the mystery man in my photos and Donut and Frisby who can confirm a helmet color change because my photos show reD helmet not yellow as stated in his book. You might want to let Donut know our knowledge of Donut is from hiking his supposed friends since the fire and what they have shared plus public articles and media and we never met him just passed by him as well as seen him around. If we really disliked Donut would the hikers left such excellent review for him…we eyewitness that day and his details from the buggies to the Weavers paused on topics I hoped he would talk about like how last second he became lookout and even he says he thought it was surprising how well he was being spoke to…I am going to explain something to you that you can take back.to.Donut but for me being a female with Sonny and all those firefighters and aerial around I had to find boulders near the men but out of sight to.ground to aerial to do nature calling so yes in my humble opinion I do feel he.could eventually touch base more on.some important to me topics. I am still floored by the news.of Charlie’s son…where did you hear such a terrible thing

      Reply

    • Well you are not well informed about my sons death else you would know he had his arm torn loose from his body after being tied up in a wench when he was working as an underwater welder. Suicide was not an issue, though his death records do say a new doctor did change his meds three days before his death. No suicide in his case- possible murder though.

      I am sorry for Donut’s claim that he wanted to do a suicide–no reason for him to since he was not the boss and he was even left in a situation that would have killed him had not Frisby happened by. He had no blame for killing the men but he also had not compassion for the loved ones by holding the truth of what happened. He had a compelling duty to come forth with the truth, yet he failed on those accounts. Maybe the guilt in that had him thinking about suicide. But then he has no reason to since he obviously was cautioned to keep his mouth shut and he did and still has. It does not really matter because if he did speak out now his testimony would be suspect. No we that have lost our kids have no tolerance for people that would cover the facts of their deaths. In Donut’s case he was an associate and in his case we are told not too popular an associate at that. He is no representation of true wild land fire fighters nor more than an underground miner’s helper would be a representation of an underground miner. He is perhaps a good representation of why the GMHS crew are dead–his story of bare escapes tells us he was not well informed of safety in wild land fire fighting–but as many have said on this site a disaster bound to happen. If you spin the cylinder, sooner or later disaster will strike.

      Sorry I have no compassion for bull shit. I highly doubt his sincerity-but if that is where you are at it is fine with me. If you bought his bull shit did you also buy his book? Joy bought it–what can you expect from a cookie cutter woman?

      Reply

    • Typ6 says: Brendan or his friends are reading these websites. Checking this site for years has been something regular for me. One way to ask a question of Brendan is to email or write a letter.

      MY REPLY: Why is Brendan and his friends reading this site knowing full well the topics?

      Why have you kept coming back “regular”?

      And how can someone email him or his friends without looking like a stalker or pesty and really get to know the person(s)?

      we needed a type 6 on June 28th 2013- where were you then?

      Why would you try to denigrate such a good man as Ted Gilligan? There is nothing in his death certificate that suggests suicide even if what you state is something to be researched & learned to be facts which I am good at digging…it would not change anyone’s love for their lost one-

      I think I am comprehending your point- take a stab at Charlie and let him know how it feels to have such talk on a loved one but you don’t know Charlie- he wonders was Donut your loved one? If I Joy A. Collura CANNOT offend Charlie- you will have a hard time; guaranteed. I hope you skip or skim this site if things offend or look away but engaging in it- you will see even Gary and WWTKTT and US and RTS and Bob; we all get frustrated and say stuff not becoming but we have low tolerance for what is being shown currently in the firefighting community (LOOK AT TWISP FIRE after YHF) and Donut knows he can at anytime (WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FROM THE START) but anytime he can open up FREELY- even here.

      Reply

        • but I guess type 6 is the least used vehicle since they don’t handle fires immediately anymore- this kind of vehicle would have been used when Bob Powers was actively fighting fires—

          now the type 6 is probably used for defensible space brush truck use-

          Reply

          • They are the main backbone of the Engine Fleet.
            500 Galion Engines with a 5 or 6 Passenger crew.
            Full compliment of hose and equipment.
            Type 6 Engen 4 x 4 Wild Land Fire Engine
            They are some times to big to get to fires on smaller 4×4 roads.
            the one the fire fighters died in last year that went off the road was a type 6.

            Reply

  119. **
    ** BRENDAN THINKS IT’S ‘COOL’ THAT HIS BOOK IS “ALL ABOUT ME”

    Brendan was on his “best behavior” for most of last week during ALL of these interviews his publisher had ‘set up’ for him… and the usual local media interviews.. but I think this SECOND mention of the book that appeared in the Prescott Daily Courier with a lengthier interview with Brendan than even their first article wins the prize for “smarmy comments from Brendan”…

    Maybe Brendan didn’t care for reporter Cindy Barks, or something.

    The Prescott Daily Courier
    Article Title: Memoir about Yarnell fire honors ‘lost brothers’: lone survivor has messages

    for readers, will sign books Saturday
    Published: May 13, 2016 6:01 a.m – By Cindy Barks.
    http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/may/13/memoir-about-yarnell-fire-honors-lost-brothers-mcd/

    —————————————————————————————
    “People are surprised that it wasn’t a book about Yarnell,” McDonough said. He stresses that he did not want the book to be a re-investigation into the fire and the tragedy. Rather, it is an account of what he heard, what he experienced.

    And he declines to speculate on a key remaining question: What prompted the Hotshot crew to leave the relative safety of the burned out area “in the black,” and venture into the brush of the box canyon, where they would die fighting the Yarnell Hills fire?

    “It’s not my job to sit here and analyze and critique,” McDonough said. “I’m not an investigator.”

    “The book is ‘who I am’”

    “That’s what’s so COOL about this book,” McDonough said. “That is me; that is who I am. Every page – I read that book 15 times in two days. And during the process, I read every chapter, many times.”

    One of the main questions he has faced focuses on the fact that he did not testify for the litigation surrounding the Hotshot deaths, which was settled in 2015.

    “The comment that comes up a lot is ‘he didn’t testify, and he now wrote a book.’”

    McDonough said. “Well, I was going to testify, but the state canceled.”

    McDonough plans to talk about the book at an event at the Peregrine Book Company in Prescott this weekend. The 2 p.m. Saturday, May 14, book signing will include a reading by McDonough and a question-and-answer session.
    —————————————————————————————

    Some of the ‘gems’ from this interview alone…

    —————————————————————————————
    “The comment that comes up a lot is ‘he didn’t testify, and he now wrote a book.’”

    McDonough said. “Well, I was going to testify, but the state canceled.”
    —————————————————————————————

    Okay… so we’re supposed to FORGET the fact the fact now that the only reason there ended up being any ‘consternation’ over these attempts to DEPOSE Brendan at all is because Brendan CHOSE to obstruct all of the official investigations with his “LYING by OMISSION”.

    As for now making it look like it was all the STATE’s fault…

    Only ONCE out of the THREE times, Brendan… and even then that was because YOUR lawyer ( and the lawyers for Arizona Forestry ) wanted it to be this big ‘blow-out one-shot-deal’ party where EVERYONE from both the ‘Wrongful Death’ lawsuits AND the ‘Property Damage lawsuits’ would get just one ‘crack’ at you… and you would give no assurances of being available for any ‘follow up’ questions. ADOSH didn’t want that ‘circus’ to take place… but YOUR lawyers would not compromise.

    The other TWO times…

    – YOU cancelled at the very last minute ( 48 hours beforehand ) because YOU suddenly felt the need to hire a criminal attorney who was working a murder case and wasn’t able to attend the already-scheduled ready-to-go private deposition session.

    – YOUR therapist had it cancelled.

    —————————————————————————————–
    “That’s what’s so COOL about this book,” McDonough said. “That is me; that is who I am. Every page – I read that book 15 times in two days. And during the process, I read every chapter, many times.”
    —————————————————————————————–

    Glad you think this book is “so COOL”… because it’s “all about you… you… you…” ( and what could possibly ever be more important than YOUR YOUness, right? ) but I guess during all of those 15 read-throughs in two days… including multiple ‘read the same chapter over and over’ passes… you never once were reading in FACT CHECKING mode?

    Just some very quick ‘examples’…

    ***** Page 193 of “My Lost Brothers”…

    Brendan says Eric Marsh was wearing a YELLOW Helmet that day.
    He was NOT. Eric Marsh hadn’t worn a YELLOW helmet for YEARS
    Eric was ( at all times ) wearing a RED Helmet that day.

    Joy Collura took the last 2 known photographs of Eric Marsh walking
    upright on the planet… and he was obviously wearing a RED helmet that day.

    SAIT Dropbox folder…
    / Photos and Video / Hiker Photos Videos / Reduced Photo Images

    Direct link to that online folder…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAQHmeW4AtE4acHagKGrrcSa/Photos%20and%20Video/Hiker%20Photos%20Videos/Reduced%20Photo%20Images?dl=0

    * Photo Filename: 1(94).JPG – ( 19th row down, 1st photo on the left ).

    Eric Marsh as he was hiking away from Joy Collura and still tying ‘pink’ flagging on the bushes to mark the way for Jesse Steed and the GM crew. Marsh is in the bottom left of the photograph and clearly wearing a RED Helmet that day.

    * Photo Filename: 1(93).JPG – ( 18th row down, 5th photo from the left ).

    Eric Marsh still hiking on the trail near Joy Collura… but farther away.
    A good ZOOM also shows that Marsh was wearing a RED Helmet that day.

    ***** Page 195 of “My Lost Brothers”…

    Brendan describes being ‘chosen’ to be the ‘lookout’.
    He mentions nothing about WHY he might have been chosen.

    He also says the following about the moment Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown arrived up there for the ‘face-to-face’ ( at exactly 11:55 AM, but Brendan doesn’t put a time on it ).

    NOTE: Brendan also purposely does not NAME Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown.

    ——————————————-
    I heard the sound of a UTV, and sure enough one rolled up on us. On board were two hotshots, the superintendent and a captain, from the Blue Ridge crew. Blue Ridge was based in the Coconino National Forest, near Flagstaff, and they’d been called in that day just like Granite Mountain. The crew was working about half a mile downslope from us, at the base of the hill.
    ——————————————-

    The ‘Blue Ridge’ crew was NOT ‘working’ down there a ‘half mile downslope’.

    The spot where the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were parked, and the crew was just ‘hanging around’ them doing nothing, was 1.23 miles ( A mile and a quarter ) ‘as the bird flies’ from the ‘anchor point’… and right around 2 full miles, via the two-track roads.

    And the Blue Ridge Crew was just sitting around their crew carriers and not ‘working’ at all. They were doing nothing but WAITING for someone ( ANYONE ) to give them a ‘work assignment’.

    ***** Page 206 of “My Lost Brothers”…

    Brendan is still under the false impression that Brian Frisby was purposely headed to his location to pick him up.

    —————————————————-
    I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Was it a mirage? I ran toward it, and saw it was the Blue Ridge UTV. I felt a huge weight lift off me. Brian Frisby had seen the flames moving toward me and had anticipated my need for a ride out— Eric had asked for a face-to-face meeting, so Brian swung by my position on the way. I hopped on and handed Brian the radio so he could talk directly to Jesse and Eric. This guy just saved my life, I thought.
    —————————————————-

    Brian Frisby had NOT “seen the flames moving toward Brendan” NOR had Frisby “anticipated his need for a ride out”. NOR had Frisby purposely “Swung by” Brendan’s position.

    Brian Frisby would be captured in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos just an hour or so later saying that he just totally, accidentally (quote) “stumbled upon the lookout”.

    ***** Page 221 of “My Lost Brothers”…

    Brendan says they ‘threw their saws’ far away from themselves at the deployment site.

    Total horseshit.

    —————————————————
    In the canyon, the hotshots were cutting in a crude circle while swampers rushed to drag the brush to the perimeter and throw it as far as they could. Guys were running at the edge of the circle, dripping fire onto the brush, trying to burn out a ring around themselves. As the fire roared a hundred feet high and they knew it was seconds from blowing through the circle, they heaved back and threw their ’saws deep into the thick brush.
    —————————————————

    ***** Page 244 of “My Lost Brothers”…

    Brendan ( Talty? ) is ‘summarizing’ the ADOSH report… but inexplicably says that Arizona Forestry did not ‘appeal’ the ADOSH findings and the ‘fines’.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.

    —————————————————
    In December, the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health released its report on the fire. It was a bombshell. It reported that the incident commander at Yarnell, the guy in charge of fighting the fire, had been exhausted and had worked twenty-eight days straight, possibly compromising his decision making. It said that the Arizona State Forestry Division ignored its own safety guidelines and failed to recognize that, in light of the extreme fire behavior being exhibited that day, their tactics “could not succeed.” Officials had pursued a strategy that put “protection of non-defensible structures and pastureland over firefighter safety.” It said that officials knew the strategy wasn’t working and were aware that a storm was going to push the flames toward the nineteen men, but failed to pull them off the line in time. It also said that I and a bunch of other hotshots were “exposed to possible smoke inhalation, burns and death.” They levied a fine of $ 559,000 for mishandling the fire and putting firefighters, including Granite Mountain, in danger.

    Forestry did not appeal the fine.
    —————————————————

    More total horseshit.

    ADOSH issues its citations and fines on December 4, 2013.
    According to ADOSH rules… Arizona Forestry had 15 days to ‘appeal’ the citations.
    On December 19 ( the 15th day since the findings ), Arizona Forestry filed documents
    officially ‘contesting’ the citations and requesting a standard ADOSH ‘appeal’ hearing.

    There is so MUCH more that is WRONG in this book.
    More later.

    Reply

    • Actually Brendan brings up a good thing…yes Marsh had red helmet on when he passed us but I saw a yellow and white helmet person up there too so it’s possible that when he changed roles that day they had him.change to yellow and if that is the case I NEED to contact a local who has photo of a yellow helmet and white helmet by Pat Bernard boulderous hill by him taken late day 6-30. Good reporting here because I will look into it…but right now my life involves biological substance…testing…etc. so add to my bucket list but it was same.day Jerry Florman gave me.her videos and photos so who was it? Come on Joy…you know it…Think…Alan Sinclair and Holly and Roth walk…who was it Joy? Ugh.

      Reply

      • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 14, 2016 at 12:00 pm

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> Actually Brendan brings up a good thing…yes Marsh had red
        >> helmet on when he passed us but I saw a yellow and white
        >> helmet person up there too so it’s possible that when he
        >> changed roles that day they had him.change to yellow

        Not likely.

        I actually meant to show the CONTEXT of that statement up above… and the actual place in the book where that statement is attributed to Brendan.

        It was when Brendan says Marsh came over to check on the ‘line building’ that Brendan had been doing over on the western edge of the anchor point area.

        Here is that exact paragraph from Brendan’s book…

        * Page 193

        The book says Eric Marsh was wearing a YELLOW Helmet that day.

        He was NOT. He was wearing a RED Helmet.

        ————————————————
        Thirty minutes later, we’d almost cleared out the anchor point. No flames were going to get past here unless they were massive, arcing over to the chaparral on the other side.

        Sweat was pouring down my face as I saw Eric approaching in his yellow hard hat.

        He pitched in and helped us clear the last half chain— that is, ten yards— of line.

        “Looks good, Donut. Nice work.”

        I felt a surge of pride. Eric didn’t give out praise that often. I knew the anchor was tight— I’d learned enough in the last two years to tell a sloppy job from a first-rate one.

        It was a tiny moment of satisfaction. I felt like I knew what I was doing. I’d earned Eric Marsh’s trust.

        That meant a great deal to me.
        ————————————————

        I really doubt that is the first time in THREE YEARS that Eric Marsh ever actually acknowledged that McDonough wasn’t a complete idiot… but I guess making it sound like it happened just hours before he would DIE makes for good ‘drama’ and sells more books.

        But THIS is the statement which pretty much proves that this entire section was written by Stephan Talty ( and NOT Brendan )… and that Brendan never even fact-checked it…

        “Sweat was pouring down my face as I saw Eric approaching
        in his YELLOW hard hat.”

        Marsh’s ‘hard hat’ was RED… not YELLOW.

        Stephan Talty fucked that up… and Brendan never fact-checked this section.

        There are MANY places in this Brendan ‘tome’ like that.

        It is perfectly obvious that Stephan Talty wrote the actual copy… and was getting a LOT of things totally WRONG… and even Brendan never caught all these ERRORS in the book.

        Just more SLOPPY writing that people are charging MONEY for.

        SIDENOTE: I actually thought author Stephan Talty ( Captain Phillips ) was better than this. This book does NOTHING to further Talty’s reputation and may even end up serving to ‘damage’ it.

        Reply

        • Yes but what if aerial said change color hard hats so.we know red steed and yellow is marsh. Remember they had meeting once they passed us on top so maybe that’s when.color of hat changed and maybe mystery man wAs there but never was.in said like others…so for me. I.am.gonna Sig for the late day photo with yellow hat near pat Bernard…so for me it is not no for marsh until more missing elements surface…

          Reply

        • My opinion from working wildfires for 16 years:

          Ain’t no way Eric Marsh changed helmets. Whatever helmet he had on at the start of the shift is the helmet that was on his noggin all day. Next topic…

          Woodsman

          Reply

          • Truly a ‘minor’ thing… in and unto itself… but considering it is just part of a LOOONG line of ‘mistakes’ like that in Brendan’s new book… it’s also truly a good example of how little ‘fact checking’ took place… and in how many places we are supposed to believe it is “Brendan speaking”… when it really isn’t.

            And beyond these ( many ) ‘minor’ factual errors… there are also some WHOPPERS that I haven’t had time to mention yet.

            Example: If you thought the post below about how New York Times Arizona Correspondent turned author Fernanda Santos managed to fuck up the actual ‘Deployment Radio Traffic’ was a real head-shaker… wait until you get a load of how badly Brendan himself ‘fucked it up’ in HIS book.

            ( And I am going to start laying ownership of everything that is WRONG with Brendan’s book at Brendan’s feet… because he’s now been quoted saying he read the book 15 times in 48 hours and also ‘reread’ all the chapters many, many times… PRIOR to it even going to print. So if there remain these kinds of severe FACTUAL errors… then Brendan needs to ‘own’ them since he is giving everyone the impression that he actually did write the book himself. )

            Did you know that ( according to Brendan ) ALL of the ‘screaming’ in the Deployment Radio Traffic ( including the initial “We are in front of the flaming front!” emergency callout )… were all Eric Marsh himself?

            And that it was Eric Marsh that Air Attack John Burfiend was telling to “Shut up”?

            News to me ( but that’s what Brendan says in his book ).

            I’ll post that section shortly… and we’ll call for votes regarding who fucked up what is actually recorded in a video worse… Fernanda Santos… or Brendan McDonough.

            Reply

    • WTKTT is right on this thing in all details. Thanks–obviously Brendan is again doing what he does best–dodge telling the truth and what he really knows. Now that he has lied so much he is even contradicting himself on many points–for instance he did say there needed to be a re investigation but now says he has no business coming forth because he is not an investigator. Yet the top wild land investigator, Dr. Ted Putnam was denied access to the site for a personal view of how, where and what factors might have convinced them that they ought to risk 19 lives by sending them down to protect structures. It is obvious that Bruce Hanna and Bret Stueter, investigators for ADOSH came to a very differ conclusion to what the cronied up FS administrators wanted. Reading what WTKTT has again posted for us and seeing the maximum fine of $559,000 makes it obvious that Yarnell wild land fire fighting efforts were an absolute failure. Anyone accepting convoluted awards or attentions for their Yarnell fire fighting duties belong in the corner facing the wall and some should even be facing the gray wall of a jail cell. Nineteen needless deaths of America’s finest is no small thing and you can bet had 19 police officers been killed in so negligent manner, some heads would roll.

      But now we have another death of an elderly–Sherry Viramonte has now passed. Joy and I knew here personally–elderly but entirely healthy before the fire. In fact when Joy was in church once when she was there the minister said Sherry was the epitome of health at her age–he attributed that to her closeness to God. She was that type religious person and I do not attribute the lady’s death to God having another purpose for her as Willis and others sometimes say–but I do attribute her death to having been compromised by the dump of over 230,000 gallons of FS agent orange fire retardant. The statistics of having now 89 deaths since the fire tell me that has to be the contributing factor to these deaths–you might even add my own since I did die and was on life support for a time at the Prescott hospital–so maybe the Irish Goddess Dana re awoke me once Joy pulled my life support plug and I awoke after what she says was 10 days–gives me a chance to harp about this shit they kill elderly and lung or heart compromised younger people. Don’t forget the hero Zack Ashoor, who had to have a breathing device (due to his asthma) in order to hike the mountain with me. He was only 29, but you can bet that hike through that retardant was a contributing factor in his death. Zack told me he was Israeli, by birth I believe–so they killed one of their own since that shit is now imported from Israel. Zack’s efforts to invent a device to save fire fighters was cut short–we have no book about him, but a hell of a lot more worthy than a the liar Donut to have one.

      Before you poo poo my assessment go look up ammonia gas on the internet and you will see what it does to your lungs. God only knows what the other 8-16% of unknown chemicals are–except the iron oxide and clay that is also part of the ingredients. That toxic shit kills fish lke Alkeida and Isis kills non believers that wont bump their heads five times a day to their Allah–by the thousands where possible.

      People are asleep and need to do their homework–WTKTT has been on this with fine details–His book would be a breath of fresh air along with Gary Olsen and a few others here that could do a good job of this catastrophe. The truth will win lives for their efforts. Donut type books–maybe interesting–but I haven’t bothered with it. Joy informs me enough and his record has not been so that I could waste my time with it.

      Reply

      • Sonny/Charlie said: she says was 10 days

        I never said that.
        -it is not an accurate statement. I was home Wed. night into a.m. and Thursday was his cardio apt where doc gave him good clean bill and walked out from his appt. and had major heart attack…than he was immediately brought away from VA to Yavapai regional and went right into surgery. There were times during those days in his notes it looked not good at all but still I was with my family and Gail Edwards and that Sunday I was asked to go down to the hospital but same moment as that I was being pulled to Gilbert/Chandler during a blizzard storm in Prescott in one of Sonny’s not so great vehicles I’d not trust in storm with a light out and I had to fix that first than go get his pet immediately than slowly instead of quickly when I returned the next morning Monday we took him off morphine and began to take the equipment away. He seem to be agitated by the process and since that moment I have seen him not like me for doing that action. So if it is up to him he felt better dead- yet he was not “dead” but near close and the process of his eyes opening to then say the whole process was more like ten days but not ten days under and on life support just that surgery was a tough one and that was Thursday thru Monday under high sedation…aka…life support…equipment bs galore…

        Reply

  120. I honestly hate flying in and flying out but life is making it hard for me to really root myself down here right now………

    But I would still love it if WTKTT could quickly tell me how he thinks it was it that Morin still had a radio?? I am quite interested in WTKTT’s imaginations that Morin was relaying to GMHS/Eric “for” Cory Ball. Much of that “imagination” makes a TON OF SENSE to me. But I thought that, according to Trew’s notes, Trew got the radio back from Morin.

    Help?????

    Reply

    • PS Along those lines, I would truly give my right leg to know who was driving that pickup truck that Cory Ball was in as they drove into the Yarnell Fire Department parking lot so that Cory Ball could get the ATV he used to go into Glen Illah.

      Especially given that I think that what WTKTT is saying regarding the “Waz Yo Status” thing makes a whole lot of sense, even tho I’m having trouble comprehending how Morin had that radio.

      When we finally had enough dots (THANK YOU JOY!!!!!!!) to put together the evidence that there was that Hail Mary Plan involving the dozer and Cory and Gary Cordes and Tyson Esquibal and, as I proposed (shaking in my boots) Paul Musser, I thought (for some now mistaken reasons) that Paul Musser was driving that truck. WTKTT wrestled me to the ground with the truth that Paul Musser was driving the blue truck, so then I was back to not knowing what truck that was taking Cory to the Yarnell Fire Department to pick up the ATV was or who was driving it. And we still don’t know that.

      But the fact is that at the time they stopped there in that parking lot and Cory took his photo was at the same time the message came across the radio recorded in the Gamble video of something like “It would be great if you could hurry up and get here, but you are the supervisor.” Is it possible, all things considered, that that was Cory Ball or the driver of that truck saying that??

      Focus.

      Reply

      • I posted some comments downstream also regarding the video and the folks in it at about the time the GMHS were leaving the black.

        Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on May 13, 2016 at 10:18 pm

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> I would truly give my right leg to know who was driving
        >> that pickup truck that Cory Ball was in as they drove
        >> into the Yarnell Fire Department parking lot so that
        >> Cory Ball could get the ATV he used to go into Glen Illah.

        You and me both.

        Because it has ALWAYS been the case that WHOEVER that was taking Cory Ball over the Yarnell Fire Station would have known exactly WHY that was happening… and WHY it was suddenly so important for Cory Ball to get ‘mobile’ before Blue Ridge even arrived from the Youth Camp.

        Cory Ball had delivered the Blue Ridge Chase truck to the RHR parking lot like he had been told to do. The rest of Blue Ridge was ‘on their way’ there. Why didn’t Ball just STAY THERE, wait for his own crew, and if he needed a 4 wheeler… just borrow the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger?

        Because something was now so IMPORTANT and so TIME CRITICAL that he HAD to get someone to drive him over to the YFD to get that ATV immediately.

        Whatever it was he needed it for… it was too important to wait for his own crew to show up at the Ranch House Restaurant.

        And YES… the voice in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video COULD be Cory Ball himself… or even whoever the fuck it was in that white truck who was ‘dropping him off’ at the YFD at the exact same moment that radio transmission took place.

        And if neither of them actually MADE that radio call… you can be damn sure they at least HEARD it. ALL of it. Including the CALLSIGN of whoever it was talking to Marsh at 4:27 PM.

        WHO WAS DRiVING THAT WHITE TRUCK ?????????????

        Reply

    • Reply to Marti Reed post on May 13, 2016 at 9:56 pm

      >> Marti Reed said…
      >>
      >> I honestly hate flying in and flying out but life is making it hard for
      >> me to really root myself down here right now………
      >>
      >> But I would still love it if WTKTT could quickly tell me how he thinks
      >> it was it that Morin still had a radio??

      I didn’t forget your question, Marti.

      I’ve been totally swamped on this end… so for the moment… let me just do
      a ‘lightning’ round and I’ll come back later with more ‘details’ on this ‘imagineering’.

      1. When Trueheart Brown gave Cory Ball a handheld to loan to Paul Morin… it
      was not Trueheart Brown’s own radio. It was a SPARE radio. Maybe that one
      note we have seen about Trew “getting the radio back” is simply wrong. Maybe
      Paul Morin still had it as he drove back to where the dozer loboy and the BR Chase
      truck was staged… and the instructions were to just give it to Ball who was then
      going to return it to the Chase truck. But that never happened. Somewhere on the
      drive down to the staging area is when both Morin and Ball were give this new
      ‘directive’ by SPGS Gary Cordes to “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah”, and
      Ball then let Paul Morin KEEP that handheld for THAT upcoming ‘new assignment’.

      2. Maybe the note is correct… and Brown did take back that ‘spare’ from Morin before
      he ( and Ball ) left for the dozer loboy and BR Chase truck staging area. But again…
      if the ‘new orders’ to ‘scout more dozer line’ came from Cordes while Morin and Ball
      were driving back to the staging area ( together in the dozer )… Ball realized Morin
      was going to need another radio. So where would Ball get one for Morin? That’s easy…
      in the BR Chase truck as soon as they got back to where both the loboy and the
      BR Chase truck were staged.

      3. Maybe the dozer loboy itself had a dashmount/programmable radio… and Paul Morin
      knew exactly how to use/program it. What self-respecting County Dozer hauling trailer
      would NOT have some kind of ‘radio’ built in? Maybe the ONLY thing Paul Morin didn’t
      have that day was a ‘handheld’ to use in the dozer itself.

      Then… when Cory Ball *might* have told Morin “Stay right here and I’ll deliver this Chase
      Truck over to the RHR like I was told to do and then I’ll be right back with an ATV so we
      can do this new assignment from Cordes”… maybe Ball and Morin were still able to fully
      communicate via the fixed radio that might have been installed in the dozer loboy.

      4. When Cory Ball got to town… maybe he discovered he now had ‘line of sight’
      issues out to the west and he could not RAISE either Marsh or Steed from ‘in town’.
      This actually was reported by a number of people. Lots of ‘line of sight’ issues
      from there in town itself… or interference when at the RHR because it was in
      the ‘shadow’ of the Arizona State Forestry repeater itself up on that radio tower
      to the east of the RHR. Whatever. Maybe Ball simply discovered while he was trying
      to get that ATV back in town that he couldn’t ‘get’ Marsh or Steed… so he simply
      asked Paul Morin to try… and Morin gave it a try… and it worked ( because Morin
      was ‘out there’ and so much closer to where we now know both Marsh and Steed
      really were circa 4:13 PM ).

      >> I am quite interested in WTKTT’s
      >> imaginations that Morin was relaying to GMHS/Eric “for” Cory Ball.

      If he ( Paul Morin ) still had either a handheld OR he had a radio in the dozer loboy itself…
      He could have been ‘relaying’ for anyone. Cory Ball is the likely candidate since that’s
      who Paul Morin had been working with all day long.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Much of that “imagination” makes a TON OF SENSE to me.
      >> But I thought that, according to Trew’s notes, Trew got the radio back from Morin.

      See above. Maybe that either never actually happened, or it did… but Ball gave Morin
      ANOTHER handheld once they got down to where both the dozer loboy AND the
      Blue Ridge Chase truck were staged. If BR had a bunch of spare radios… it’s likely
      SOME of them were, in fact, right there in the BR Chase Truck.

      OR… the dozer loboy might have actually had a radio, too.

      It all comes down to the following…

      SOMEONE with that kind of ‘heavy accent’ who didn’t appear to be all that familiar
      with Wildfire radio protocols WAS talking to Marsh at 4:13 PM.

      Bob Powers is not wrong in what he was pointing out below. There WERE a lot
      of people who might have been making that radio query circa 4:13 PM.

      However…

      Given the ‘line of sight’ issues all day and the now ‘thick-as-a-brick’ smoke cloud
      enveloping the Yarnell area… the only people who probably COULD have been
      talking to Marsh ( somewhere near the BSR or just out in the canyon ) were either
      the Airplanes… or someone who had a pretty good ‘line of sight’ out into the canyon.

      The fact that the ‘Mornin’ surname is FRENCH and that the origins of all ‘Morins’
      in the United States began ( and a high concentration remains ) in Lousiana
      CAJUN COUNTY is either just one huge, creepy COINCIDENCE… or it might
      be telling us something important.

      More later…

      Reply

      • Now you are absolutely adlibbing here after accusing me of assuming there was even a Fire Camp. This is a County Road Equipment Low Boy and Tractor.
        They would not have had any 16 Channel Fire Programmable Radio.

        Your own Discussion way down was the Operator and Low Boy and Tractor were presumed missing because they could not be Contacted by Radio

        THAT MEANS MORIN HAD NO FIRE RADIO. You just can not some how put one in his Hands. Or may Be you can to fit your scenario?????????????
        MAYBE, MAYBE, MAYBE Is not fact searching.

        Reply

        • You really have absolutely NO imagination, do you?

          Everything to you is “If it’s not something I’ve seen happen before then it could not have been happening in Yarnell”.

          How the fuck do YOU know whether or not that particular Yavapai County loboy heavy equipment hauling trailer absolutely… no way in hell… not something I’m familiar with… did NOT have a radio in it?

          You don’t.

          Neither do I… but at least I’m trying to be helpful and answer Marti’s questions AND to try and explain possible scenarios.

          Of course the fact that Morin *might* have had a radio ( can you fit those two concepts into your brain for just one second? That it is a ‘fact’ that he ‘might’ have had one? ) means there has to also then be an explanation for why he appears to have been added to the ‘missing persons’ list.

          But have you also heard the ‘last moments of the hotshots’ Helmet Cam video?

          It IS very likely some of those ‘nothing but static’ transmissions we hear at the end ARE someone from the deployment site still trying to communicate via their radios.

          But by the time that thick-as-a-brick smoke cloud that was turning night to day actually descended on their location… it may have been no longer POSSIBLE to transmit through that solid ash cloud.

          Same for Morin, then.

          If he actually ended up riding out the burnover in the cab of either the dozer or the loboy… then for long enough for no one to be able to ‘raise’ him on the radio he might have then been added to the ‘missing persons’ list.

          With or without a radio… there’s also a ton of other reasons why no one might have been sure where he was immediately before and after the deployment.

          Back to your ‘Fire Camp’ thing ( since you are obsessed with it ).

          WHO in the ‘Fire Camp’ would have been having that conversation with Marsh… and WHY?

          Make yourself useful… make some ‘suggestions’.

          And don’t forget that whoever might have had some full need to ask a Type 1 Hotshot Team “Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?” at exactly 4:13 PM ALSO was not familiar with WFF radio protocols and answered Marsh with “Ten-Four” instead of “Copy”… and THEN ( and this is important ) the same person also immediately had the need to ask Marsh “Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”

          WHO would have had BOTH of those ‘need to knows’ at exactly 4:13 PM… and the AUTHORITY to even make the queries… yet still have been such a ‘throwback to the old days’ and/or so unfamiliar with standard WFF radio protocols that they were using “Ten-Four” instead of “Copy”?

          Give me some NAMES or ICS position levels.
          Who would be YOUR ‘best guesses’ that fit all the criteria?

          I’m all ears.

          Reply

          • I am First going to tell you one more time The 10-4 was a hold over many people used and said to this day. True Copy was part of the plane text but many others who worked in different Fire departments as well as Ham Operators still use the old 10 code although abbreviated. The 10-4 is not only a Copy but an acknowledgement that you herd the transmission.
            WLFF use the 10-4 as do some State, County and City employees it happens all the time.

            Now I already gave you Names.
            Base Camp Manager Howard Carlson Arrived at 0800.
            Comm. Leader Clarence McMillan Arrived at 1130
            Entire Camp Crew Arrived at 1400 no names
            Fire camp overhead ordered at 1/29 2120 Arriving all day from 0800 to 1600 did not copy each name they are in the Resource Orders under

            O-16 includes every position on the Fire team. Arriving from 0800 to 1300 all the above were reporting to the Model Creek School.
            The Base camp Manager would have reported @ 0800 and started setting up the locations of the different functions including the fire camp Radio Operator and Check in station

            I am telling you this was a camp in transition from 0800 that morning that would most definitely have been the place where a radio Operator would have been checking on all the people on the fire for the IC or other Overhead in Camp.

            Might add their would have been trailers and supplies arriving non stop after 1000 the 30th to the fir camp.

            Reply

            • Just for filler I will add—

              9 type 6 Engines with crew arrived between 0800 and 1210 on the 30th
              2 Water Tenders and 2 Structure Protection Trailers @1000
              Many of the Type 2 Team arrived before 1400.

              That was a busy camp with a lot of equipment and overhead moving in and checking in. and a full Camp crew any one of which may have taken over the Fire camp radio to relay messages to and from the fire.

              That’s the way camps start that has been SOP for ever I know I set up many filled orders sent out Camp crews and a full array of trailers Tents chairs Etc. Telephones, Radios Base Camp and Portables a Radio Tec. to set up Repeaters ETC.

              Reply

              • For Got to answer your Radio Question——

                #1 If the Tractor Operator did not have a Fire Radio in his Tractor
                It is certain he did not have one in his Low boy.

                #2 I did not say he did not have a Radio I said he did not have a 16 Channel FIRE Radio I am sure he probably had a County Road crew Radio in Both Units That dose not help for Fire needs.

                #3 He could not be Raised on the Radio because Ball took the only Fire Communications he would have had. If He had a Radio he was in a location where there would have been no problem Receiving any Communications. Either before or after the burn over he went back to the County yard Parked it and did what ever. He was not listed as a Fatality His equipment was not listed as Destroyed or burned.

                #4 My Obsession with the Fire camp thing is because it is a Higher Probability than your Obsession with a Tractor Operator From a County Road Department that most probably was his First Fire. He needed a Radio/He was not Red Carded/he had a Tractor that had a 8 FT. Blade not usually used in Brush/ He had to have a Tractor Boss in his hip pocket
                to tell him what to do.

                #5 Not Familiar with the WLFF Radio Procedures?
                Because he used 10-4? Some city and county people use the 10 code still to day. Ham Operators use it. Some people just use it in a normal conversation it is a hold over phrase used by many even though there are many organizations that have gone to clear text some one will pop up with 10-4 or
                10-4 I copy that. It has been around fore ever even people that do not know the ten code use it.
                So Basically not a criteria to identify some one as non WFF as you say.

                You still have no clue if Morin even had a accent.

                # 6 Radios that burn will melt the transmit button and could well cause the static herd. Not from any ash or heavy smoke cloud I have ever seen or herd about. A keyed button will open the Frequency and you will here Back ground noise or just a open mick with no sound. Not Static. a loose antenna could cause static as well. Or just the melting of some internal parts.

                That’s my back ground information. You can call it what you want but do not force undocumented facts that SO an SO was the Probable person with the Accent when you do not first even know if he has a accent like a the fraise we are talking about.

                Reply

  121. **
    ** BRENDAN CONTINUES TO INSIST ( PUBLICLY ) THAT THERE IS
    ** STILL ‘MUCH MORE TO KNOW’ ABOUT THE YARNELL TRAGEDY

    Brendan McDonough’s publishers really worked him HARD last week and had him making appearances all over the frickin’ place in order to push this new book he and author Stephan Talty wrote ( “My Lost Brothers” ).

    And pretty much everywhere he went… his ‘story’ was the same… to the point where it was just down to a ‘mantra’.

    He is absolutely saying ( PUBLICLY ) that he believes there is much, much more to KNOW about what really happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

    He is even ‘challenging’ people who are looking at the fire to “keep looking” and he is now talking about how much more might come out if certain ‘other people’ (quote) “really dig into it”.

    But he never says WHO these people are that he thinks should “really dig into it”… nor does he acknowledge that some people have been “digging” as hard as they can for almost 3 years now… and still… everywhere he goes and appears… he gets a ‘free pass’ and NO ONE ever even asks him to explain or elaborate on the words coming out of his own frickin’ mouth.

    I know it remains absurd that a guy who is now ‘backing off’ things that even he has already said he heard on the radio should be so openly suggesting that there is “much more to know”… and that “somebody needs to find out what really happened”… but such is the rolling trainwreck that is Brendan McDonough.

    KGUN9 TV – Tucson, Arizona – The Morning Blend
    LIVE Television Interview with Brednan McDonough
    Aired Live: May 5, 2016
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rIfvZJwpGI

    ————————————————————————————–
    Reporter: Are there things that could have been done differently?
    Do you feel… in your opinion… that there are things that could
    change for firefighter and safety and… you know… for your
    crew specifically… that you’d like to see changed in the future?

    Brendan McDonough: I believe there’s a LOT we can learn from Yarnell.
    And… sadly… with any wildfire tragedy… ya know… we have a lotta lessons
    to be learned… and I think… ya know… as time goes on… we’re gonna learn
    more about Yarnell and what happened that day… and as… ya know…
    other people really, truly dive into it. So… I believe they ARE learning from
    Yarnell and I think we’re going to CONTINUE to as well.
    ————————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • Followup…

      That;’s about the FIFTH on-camera interview where Brendan has actually (basically) said…

      “There are a LOT of Lessons to Learn from what happened in Yarnell”

      …but not ONCE has any of the ‘talking heads’ or ‘bimbos’ doing the interview(s) ever actually then said…

      “Like WHAT, Brendan? Why don’t you tell us what YOU think the ‘Lessons to Learn’ coming out of Yarnell are?”

      Unbelievable.

      Reply

  122. FYI… Brendan McDdonough in TIME magazine…

    Brendan gets COMPLETE credit for ‘authorship’ of this TIME magazine article, even though it’s nothing more than a complete reprint of the PROLOGUE for his book, and most of the last half of his last chapter. Stephan Talty ( author of ‘Captain Phillips’ ) gets no ‘credit’ at all, not even for having any part in Brendan’s new book “My Lost Brothers”…

    TIME Magazine
    Article Title: I Survived the Wildfire That Killed My Firefighter Brothers
    Published: May 4, 2016, 2016
    http://time.com/author/brendan-mcdonough/

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————-
    Brendan McDonough is the author of My Lost Brothers.

    ( First half… the PROLOGUE story about Brendan and Christopher MacKenzie almost burning to death on the Doce fire, a week before Yarnell ).

    ( Second half… from the last chapter of Brendan’s book ).

    “I’ve accepted that I couldn’t have saved them, no matter WHAT I did.”
    ——————————————————————————-

    Reply

    • Donut amounts to a donut. He has lied, with held truth and played his game. He is way ahead of most in his abilities. I cant imagine Joy even bothering to spend 16 bucks on a book to further his bullshit when here we have 19 young souls dead and all he wants to do is tell a sad story about his life. Shit I cant believe anyone could even bother to deal with it.

      Reply

      • And see the post above about his second interview with Cindy Barks of the Prescott Daily Courier.

        Brendan thinks it’s really COOL that the book he wrote is (quote) All about me”.

        Brendan is on ‘auto-pilot’ right now… just doing everything his ‘handlers’ and ‘agents’ and ‘publishers’ are TELLING him to do in order to have any chance of this book making any real money at all.

        As long as Brendan can maintain that he is suffering from PTSD… he gets free taxpayer dollars in the form of a ‘disability check’.

        His application for full full pension benefits to the City of Prescott seems to be going nowhere… so Brendan NEEDS this book to MAKE MONEY.

        So of course he’s going to ‘push it’ as hard as he can.

        It’s his ‘meal ticket’ at the moment.

        Brendan might even be on the verge of becoming a ‘thousand-aire’.

        Just enough money to make him think he’s ‘arrived’… but as most ‘thousand-aires’ soon discover… that money runs out pretty fast if you have no other income.

        Brendan THINKS he has ‘succeeded’.

        He THINKS he has ‘gotten away’ with obstructing official investigations, maintaining his agenda, and isn’t ever going to have to fully detail what he heard over the radio that day OR fully explain what really went on with his “confession” to Darrell Willis.

        Brendan still has a hard road ahead of him.

        He seems to have ignored Gary Olson’s advice that when you realize you have dug yourself into a hole… the first thing to do is ‘stop digging’.

        Brendan is still “digging away”… and doesn’t even realize it.

        Reply

  123. Why is there so many Structural overhead involved in the wildland game???

    Here is the answer, from my perspective from my community..

    The local structural fire department is always trying to justify t city council on how to get more money. So, because the Urban Interface has expanded and keeps expanding, the city sees it as an opportunity to get more money. They have the city boundary, but outside the actual city boundary (WUI), they have a “fire protection area” which is larger. They claim to offer structural, first responder (EMT) and wildland services, and of course, the residents pay for that on their taxes. User pays. Since they are charging for it the structural department has to provide it.

    Structural is easy, they already have the trucks, EMT also already exists with the members of the department. They do not stock fully a wildland team, its just part of the existing man up at the fire hall. They bought an $80K Type 6 engine that is all decked out with all of the bush goodies…except…..they do not have firefighters that have a lot of wildland experience… so its sort of a false façade… Charge for wildland (taxes), look like you are capable of wildland (Engine) but you put the same old structural guys in the truck (in coveralls versus turn out gear) and pretend you are wildland guys…

    If the city were to refuse to provide fire protection to the fire protection area, they would lose that tax base and then could not use that funding for other municipal projects…

    So its like, lets pretend we can provide a quality service, we will dress and drive trucks that look like we can, but then we just hope that no fires happen, so that we get the money but don’t really have to do the job….and the Forest Service will always be there to back us up if things get bad under mutual aid responses….

    Because the structural group resides at the hall, and the call usually comes in via 911, the city guys are on site first, assume command and are not usually willing to transfer command to the true wildland professionals (FS)…

    Its a game of smoke and mirrors in order to access the tax base…

    Reply

    • Thank you. I live in a rural ‘fire protection district’ and you have described the ‘coverage’ situation around here perfectly… with one exception. They have the shiny 80k Type 6… and they USED to have a fella who had at least SOME Wildland Firefighting training… but died in a deer hunting accident 5 years ago and they have never replaced him.

      Unfortunately… you have ALSO described almost perfectly the situation in a little town called Twisp, Washington. Their own FD website had photos proudly displaying how one side of the Type 6 was outfitted with structural firefighting PPE and equipment… and the containers on the OTHER side had the Wildland PPE and stuff… but whether or not that department ever had ‘people’ fully qualified to do EITHER remains unproven.

      Reply

      • And rocksteady has also provided the explanation WHY the flawed approach to initial attack continues to proliferate.

        ————————————————————————-
        So its like, lets pretend we can provide a quality service, we will dress and drive trucks that look like we can, but then we just hope that no fires happen, so that we get the money but don’t really have to do the job….and the Forest Service will always be there to back us up if things get bad under mutual aid responses….
        ————————————————————————-

        The ‘things get bad’ scenario ALSO includes incompetence and lack of training.

        A 911 operator gets the call about a non-structural ‘smoke’ or ‘fire’.

        If not OBVIOUSLY on State or Federal land.. the closest ( supposedly ) Wildland capable station covering that ‘fire protection district’ is dispatched.

        They respond with whatever they actually have… and WHOEVER they actually have that is ‘on shift’ at that moment… whether they are Wildland trained or not.

        The MINUTE the thing might be ‘getting away from them’, due to either lack of training or lack of experience ( or BOTH )… they says “Fuck it… call ( insert name of US State here ) Forestry”.

        Then all the better shiny ‘toys’ show up and the cool helicopters and crap… and ( hopefully ) THEY ‘get a handle on it’.

        But there is NEVER any kind of AAR ( After Action Review ) to determine whether that Initial Attack SHOULD have succeeded… but ended up in TOTAL FAIL.

        The SE ( Standard Excuse ) is always… “Well… they did the best they could… but it just got away from them”.

        So the SPOTLIGHT never shines on what the REAL problem is, in most of these initial responses. The station that dispatched is really just ‘faking it’.

        The equivalent example ( which, unfortunately, is ALSO happening ) is this whole ‘EMT capable’ thing. More and more ‘outlying’ stations are trying to list themselves as EMT capable so that they can actually be allowed to ‘dispatch’ on emergency medical calls… and tap into all the $$$$ associated with that, as well… but same situation exists. In many cases… they are only either BARELY meeting the minimum capabilities required to ‘dispatch’ on calls like that… or they are actually NOT even meeting the real requirements at all and they are ‘faking it’.

        When they respond to a medical emergency that they really aren’t capable of handling… and probably should NOT have been allowed to ‘respond’ to… they just ‘kick it up” to the next level and try to get the people who really DO know what the fuck they are doing to respond as well.

        And yea… if all the ‘statistics’ were properly gathered… I bet you would find that in some cases, people really are DYING because of this flawed CCR ( Closest Capable Resource ) initial response approach.

        Everyone ( small fire departments and outlying stations ) wants to ‘play ball’ and get access to all the $$$$ and the ‘toys’… but there are huge holes in the ‘certification’ process and the ONGOING recertification(s).

        My own situation is case in point.

        When my local FD and fire station got their shiny new Type 6 engine and additional $$$ to add a ‘Wildland Trained’ FF… they then ‘qualified’ as a new CCR ( Closest Capable Resource ) for responding to Wildland Fire reports in this rural fire protection district.

        But that was EIGHT YEARS ago.

        The ‘Wildland guy’ they hired got killed in a deer hunting accident FIVE years ago… and they have never replaced him. They say the ‘funding’ for that position actually got pulled the following year.

        But they are STILL listed as a CCR ( Closest Capable Resource ) for responding to Wildfire reports in this fire protection district.

        “Fakin’ it til they make it”.

        Welll they MADE it ( EIGHT years ago )… but no one has done the right ‘follow up’ or ‘recertification’ to discover they should be REMOVED from the CCR.

        It’s all just ‘business as usual’.

        Reply

        • There are also INSURANCE RATE considerations involved in all this.

          Example: When the station that now covers the ‘fire protection district’ that I happen to live in got that CCR ( Closest Capable Resource ) rating for Wildland response some eight years ago… our homeowners insurance rates actually went DOWN.

          But the insurance company itself still doesn’t know ( or doesn’t care ) that the guy with the definite ‘Wildland Firefighting’ quals that was hired along with the arrival of the Type 6 engine DIED in that deer hunting accident and has never been officially replaced.

          They ( the local FFs ) SAY that they now send personnel assigned to that station to ‘Wildland Classes’… but no one I know has ever seen any actual proof of that.

          So even the INSURANCE companies are not doing what they should to make sure that ‘fire protection districts’ that APPEAR to have the proper equipment and properly trained personnel available… actually DO.

          And there is no big incentive even on citizens’ part to have all this exposed, either… because once insurance companies start offering a discount for certain circumstances ( supposedly improved fire protection response )… no one wants those ‘discounts’ to suddenly ‘evaporate’.

          Reply

          • The Closes Forces also includes the Responsibal Agency response as well
            There will always be a Overhead and Engine or Helicopter Response from the Agency that is responsible for the Land in question.

            Closes forces includes other agencies but that dose not preclude the Agency Responsibility. It only gets a Engine Crew that is 15 Min. away to the IA location– while the Agency Engine and Supervisor 30 Min away is responding as well.

            The real problem is County and City Property in the Urban Interface that is Wild lands and under their control because the City has spread out into those lands. Then the back up and some times closes forces comes from the Wild Land Agency who ends up working for the BATTALION CHIFE Classed as a IC 1,2,3,4, What ever.

            In Idaho there is a Insurance Company that will respond to your house out in the Timber and put a Engine on your Property with a crew to protect your house. Sun Valley Idaho with the Million Dollar homes has that type of insurance as do other Movie star communities.
            The City Fire stations in many of those communities have worked and trained with the Federal Government to be able to provide a wild land trained Fire crew and Supervisors. I and the BLM were working with those city’s back in the late 80’s. they are still doing that today.

            You can not put all your eggs in one basket and say it is universal.
            California is an example. Cal Fire has been around a long time and they have almost as many recourses as the FS. Some Counties like LA, Los Padres, Cleveland and San Bernardino as well as others have Highly trained Wild Land Fire Forces. That is not to say there are not areas that have a critical problem with the ability to fight Wild Land Fires.

            Reply

    • Hi, I’ve been lurking here on and off for a while. I had a somewhat long introductory post that never made it, but suffice it to say I have a longstanding interest in wildland fire policy that started when I read Young Men and Fire. I also live in the urban west, so I feel that this is an issue for every citizen, not just those who are on the line or those who live in the path of the fire.

      Anyhow, back to the subject. I had heard that there could be money in the hotshot business but I had no idea how much until I read this article:

      http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/03/05/northwest-fire-district-hoped-the-ironwood-hotshots-would-be-a-moneymaker/

      It’s old, but after Yarnell, and shows that the district made a profit 2 years of four. The Prescott lawsuits seem to have made the overall value lower for hotshot crews, but I suppose if you don’t have to train actual crews, it could still be lucrative.

      Thanks to all for your excellent information and discussion. I’ve learned a lot.

      Reply

      • Reply to Muzzy post on May 13, 2016 at 1:03 pm

        >> Muzzy said…
        >>
        >> Hi, I’ve been lurking here on and off for a while. I had a
        >> somewhat long introductory post that never made it,

        Thank you for your addition(s) to the discussion.

        As far as posts ‘not making it sometimes’… one thing to keep in mind is that the one thing will always send a post into ‘moderation’ ( must be approved by the moderator before it appears on the thread ) is if you simply have more than TWO ‘hyperlinks’ in any given ‘post’.

        Happens to all of us, sometimes. We try to link to several things at once and a ‘post’ simply drops into ‘moderation’.

        A ‘hyperlink’ is any ‘clickable’ link… and that includes EMAIL addresses as well.

        The reason the Ironwood Hotshots were disbanded was a direct result of the Yarnell tragedy. It was all about ‘liability’ issues and realizing that unless you have the kind of ‘liability’ support that is offered by being a FEDERAL or STATE level organization… an incident such as the Yarnell tragedy could end up putting your entire TOWN up for sale on eBay.

        The ‘damage’ amounts being requested in just the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that were filed ( and not even the property damage lawsuits ) amounted to the entire yearly budget for the City of Prescott.

        The City of Prescott was DROPPED as a ‘defendant’ when those ‘wrongful death’ notice of claims were finally filed as full-blown lawsuits… but the City of Prescott WAS named as one of the liable ‘defendants’ when the original ‘notice of claims’ were filed by family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

        Reply

        • Thanks wtktt! I figured there was some rule of posting or other, especially for a newbie. I’ll try to keep links to a minimum.

          I heard about Ironwood disbanding, a real shame, but if the district was just in it for the money, the ff’s may be better off this way! It seems like mission creep from pure WLFF to structure protection is going to happen when the structure guys run the department. It seems like the only way to have hotshots at the local level is to have a wildland department that is as separate from the structure guys as the police are, separate funding and distinct mission. I wonder if some of Marsh’s frustration was that he always had Willis, who I gather was more of a structure guy, doing the talking to the higher-ups in city government.

          Reply

          • The quest for money initiated the Ironwood hotshots and the fear of possibly losing more than could be made with reimbursements disbanded it……….the duality is fascinating.

            Woodsman

            Reply

    • Do you know why I like Gary–no bullshit guy and he does not care who you might be. There are few left in this world that way–people like Geo Washington, Thomas Paine, Tom Jefferson died a long time ago. Those boys are on the same plane as Gary–too many need to go fuck themselves for their god damned ability to suck ass and avoid the truth. We know we have been fed a lie, yet on the hay wagon with the fine fiddle music too many are inculcated into the bull shit–lives at stake and yet lies abundant. The deaths of 19 young fellows screams for the truth.

      Reply

      • Donut is a convenient pawn. Dr. Ted Putnam was refused a trip up the mountain, same as Gary et al if you had credentials and experience. Here we go–but now there is evidence that this debacle is covered up to save certain individual reputations. Why don’t they subpoena the man they dreaded to look into this killing of 19? Dr. Ted Putnam is there and so is Gary Olsen and Bob. who better could you subpoena if you want the truth of this death order that killed 19 needlessly? Don’t hold your breath, the Fire Gods would never have that if at any cost they could stop it.

        Reply

    • Correct statement–access the federal funds–let the lightening strike blossom from a thousand dollar affair to a multi-million dollar fiasco. Except do not loose 19 young souls, but if you do cover up the reasons they are dead–and say what you want–since dead men do not talk and in the mean time threaten all that might.

      Reply

  124. •Charlie says

    May 12, 2016 at 1:04 pm

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    WTKTT–The point you made about Morin possible reason to contact GMHS by his wondering when the GMHS would show up for a back burn along his dozer trail to protect Glen Isla makes damn good sense. We do know the dozer was working or attempting to work a line along the North end of Glen Isla since its tracks there busted up a wall at Kathy Walker’s Father’s house right on that North edge of Glen Isla.

    It appears to me that the only reason that makes sense for the GMHS being so ordered to engage Glen Isla through that dangerous death bowl was that they were bound and determined to prove their worth as structure protectionists–their secondary but not so secondary occupation as wild land fire fighters. It would be a failure in their mind, as well as their bosses, and their bosses bosses minds if they did not live up to that hybrid mentality. Now soon after the fire on our hikes we did see and there had been much bulldozer activity on the north side line of Glen Isla–that drainage was worked, but and quite a bit of clean up activity done in that area. But whether done after the fire we could not ascertain since there was much activity with dozer work in that area after the fire including dozing a road to the death site.

    Also add –good to see Marti back. You always give good input.

    Joy thinks she wants to go pick up a book Fernanda Santos has for us at her book signing in Yarnell. It ought to be an interesting read. Dr. Ted Putnam hiked with Fernanda, Joy, Master Counselor Gail Edwards, Ered Matthews, Jerry Pfingston and me–so it will be interesting to see what she had about Putnam’s input and ideas–as well as other tid bits she might have gleaned from the others.

    The world keeps turning out new books, plays, films and media reports. But none are able to come forth yet with all the truth since it has been laboriously hidden by the Yahoos that think this will be allowed in our new age of fact finding and revelations of fact. So it remains that those that are more careful in their analysis will await the latter day saints of book writing and revelations of truth. Ain’t it a shame that the sham has to be broken in so much time–but we can attribute this to so many gags, redactions, Donut types and those fearful of status and job, and back patting cronies doing their best to save face.

    There are snags, those number one widow makers of the lumber jack–but even those can be safely dealt with. Let the heavy equipment drag them down or even the mules. We have the heavy equipment working on the snags right here on Investigative Media–they are falling one by one.

    Reply

    • •Charlie says

      May 12, 2016 at 1:04 pm

      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

      WTKTT–The point you made about Morin possible reason to contact GMHS by his wondering when the GMHS would show up for a back burn along his dozer trail to protect Glen Isla makes damn good sense. We do know the dozer was working or attempting to work a line along the North end of Glen Isla since its tracks there busted up a wall at Kathy Walker’s Father’s house right on that North edge of Glen Isla.

      It appears to me that the only reason that makes sense for the GMHS being so ordered to engage Glen Isla through that dangerous death bowl was that they were bound and determined to prove their worth as structure protectionists–their secondary but not so secondary occupation as wild land fire fighters. It would be a failure in their mind, as well as their bosses, and their bosses bosses minds if they did not live up to that hybrid mentality. Now soon after the fire on our hikes we did see and there had been much bulldozer activity on the north side line of Glen Isla–that drainage was worked, but and quite a bit of clean up activity done in that area. But whether done after the fire we could not ascertain since there was much activity with dozer work in that area after the fire including dozing a road to the death site.

      Also add –good to see Marti back. You always give good input.

      Joy thinks she wants to go pick up a book Fernanda Santos has for us at her book signing in Yarnell. It ought to be an interesting read. Dr. Ted Putnam hiked with Fernanda, Joy, Master Counselor Gail Edwards, Ered Matthews, Jerry Pfingston and me–so it will be interesting to see what she had about Putnam’s input and ideas–as well as other tid bits she might have gleaned from the others.

      The world keeps turning out new books, plays, films and media reports. But none are able to come forth yet with all the truth since it has been laboriously hidden by the Yahoos that think this will be allowed in our new age of fact finding and revelations of fact. So it remains that those that are more careful in their analysis will await the latter day saints of book writing and revelations of truth. Ain’t it a shame that the sham has to be broken in so much time–but we can attribute this to so many gags, redactions, Donut types and those fearful of status and job, and back patting cronies doing their best to save face.

      There are snags, those number one widow makers of the lumber jack–but even those can be safely dealt with. Let the heavy equipment drag them down or even the mules. We have the heavy equipment working on the snags right here on Investigative Media–they are falling one by one.

      Reply

      • sonny says
        May 10, 2016 at 10:13 am

        Your comment is awaiting moderation.

        I had to show up in Prescott today. So Joy and I had breakfast at the Waffle House Café–she always orders the number 3, a bowl of gravy, green and red chili salsa on the side and we split the meal–the old married couple–she’s married and I’m old and $8.00 for all that is a bargain.

        If you haven’t been to the Waffle House for breakfast then do if you visit Prescott. It is right up the street past the stop light where the 19 are buried along Iron Springs Road on the left in the shopping center that has the big Good Will store. You won’t complain and we have tried restaurants all over Arizona and this one has to be tops–your coffee cup is always kept full to boot.

        Now this morning we came early so on our way out we again met Carl Whitted, the father of deceased Clayton, one of the 19 GMHS and squad leader,that was killed during the June 30,2013 that is called organized chaos by one of those elite bosses that was on the fire. Joy says do not use his name since he might not want to be mentioned. Who among them does except to accept accolades?

        But speaking about Carl–we both share the loss of a son and I told him it is something we never can forget. He had lost his wife in 200r7 so this loss of a son was a second tragedy for him in a short span of time. He said he wished that these authors had talked to him and any future books or films he would like to be contacted. He said no one had even made an effort to talk to him. Considering the important role that Clayton had on the GMHS team as a sawyer you would have thought that indeed he would have been a person to interview concerning his son and what Carl had to report about the GMHS he had learned from Clayton. I am beginning to wonder if only Amanda and a couple other GMHS relatives are the only sources of the book information we get. One thing I get is that it seems only the cronies that want to write a fantasy tale to protect reputations instead of dealing with the facts of the case are what we are getting from the books so far and what we will continue to get. Those that go against the grain in trying to get the real story–and we do know it is not pretty–will be denigrated as best the cronies can.

        Truth in this matter remains elusive–yet it is apparent to many and especially professional wild land fire fighters and investigators that it is there. But getting it past the crony system is akin to getting a man on the moon–not easily done.

        I notice the authors are even afraid to mention our names in their books. I should maybe not be surprised–even perhaps glad that we are anonymous in those books. We after all have been on the other side of the fence — we do not believe the whole truth is out there and I certainly can not consider the bosses that killed those men as heroes after all. In the sense they were wild land fire fighters yes all could be called heroic in their actions. But the negligent acts committed by Marsh, Steed and those that pushed them to go down into that death trap deletes their heroism. No one can commend them for killing those under them by ordering their men down into a situation that would kill them. I was there on the very spot on that two track where they descended shortly before they did and saw the situation in full panoramic view the deadly decision we also could have made by attempting to reach that Helm’s so called Boulder Springs Ranch.

        My heart felt condolences to Carl. He was let down by those that bossed his son. But so am I as a resident of Yarnell along with other tax paying citizens that have been led to believe a fairy tale about the Yarnell Hill Fire Debacle. But even more so the young wild land fire fighter who may never know the real truth of what happened to kill those young men–facts hidden that if and when revealed can only save future lives.

        Reply

      • Page locked up did not mean to double post–

        Joy did the hospital thing today–well they wanted her to stay–but we will know tomorrow more about her health issues.

        I dare say it is too bad when people have to avoid hospitals due to money issues-for one thing and then once you are hooked up then it is a capture system similar to the green card system of the Yarnell Martial law lockdown when the citizens locally are plenty capable of taking care of their situation and remaining free citizens. I am still aghast that the media was even excluded here and that so many locals wanted that basic first amendment right taken away from the press. Too bad the media did not fight that one–so comrads–your good old America is slowly going down the tube. I can remember when Kruchev banged his shoe on the table and also when he said Communism would take over America without a shot. But then you look at the Citizen of this day and age brought up as they are they are welcoming things never that would have been allowed only a few years back.

        What has it to do with wild land fire fighters? Apparantly they are breaking the law if they do not have a $20 pass to walk on State Lands. Well maybe the law is written to exclude them–it would take a WTKTT to know and I doubt few lawyers know that law–local citizens don’t for 9 out of 10. But then when did a law slip in that if your dog gets loose then you are likely to be heavily fined (1400 for one local lady) and even jailed up to four months for such a petty thing. Indeed America has become a land of fear where for any small

        The world is becoming cowardly giving up freedom for so called safety. Sounds like Hitler when he rounded up all the guns for the sake of safety to the citizenry–then he and his cronies rounded up the Jews and did their genocide thing. Giving up these freedoms is the slow boiling of frogs and here we of Yarnell are stupid enough we believed the authoritative Fire Department would take care of what locals should have done in putting out that lightening strike immediately. I am as guilty as the rest of the citizens here but now we know how little you can really rely on a system that fails in its civil duty then disregards the safety of its young men by unnecessarily and needlessly putting them in harms way–so that Yarnell now has the stigma of being the town of 19 deaths. Maybe the young fire fighter would do well to look into his own safety if he chooses to be a wild land fire fighter. Certainly beware of the order to strictly take orders on a daily basis. That is bull shit if you have bosses like we saw at Yarnell.

        Reply

    • I.don’t feel like scrolling on cell.to my last post but 171&172 made me realize how insensitive I have been with Amanda and others…here I say I am.here for.all affected..let me.clarify…I am here to bring the truths.and.missing elements to the foreground and I am deeply sorry your loss was learned as I read.it…I bawled. I can see the mixed emotions towards me and others. Please know I never been a social person so I made a lot of errors over time but I am.in this with no book or agenda or angle and just want the world to have clarify along with me. I want to thank you all for sharing for the world to see that side because I was.not connected and so not at peace but their peace and journey can help me figure out why I get so unraveled about the the.

      Reply

  125. I have taken time to think about what I wanted to say about this Company Man thing that I was Tagged with by Gary. Yes I was dam near born into the Forest Service both my Father and Step Father worked for the Forest Service. I grew up in the Forest on several Ranger Stations. I went to work at age 18 for the Forest Service. I went to work Fighting Fire at 17 fore Cal State.

    Because of my life in the Forest Service I met and Knew many great FS people from Regional Foresters to Rangers to Forest Supervisors all across the Nation. That to me is not a company man
    that is some one who loves the Forest and the FS I grew up in and worked for.

    I can say as I have said before to Gary I left the FS at 50 because I did not like the way the Forest Service and Fire control were headed it had taken a 180 from where I use to be.
    I and many of my retired friends are very upset with the things going on now.
    The no Fighting Fire at Night.

    Let burn policies that ignore Drought and critical conditions.

    Lack of aggressive Initial Attack or the 10 AM policy–You are immediately responsible to contain a Fire by 10 AM the next day. and each shift after that. Pure and simple through every thing at the fire you have and get it controlled even if you are on the line all night.

    The big one to many of us is the new directives that will not Identify rules and Regulations violated from the Top Down in a Fatality Investigation.

    Yes over the years I worked I had a lot of head Knockings and disagreements with many different people Most of the time I was right and won.

    No I Am Not a COMPANY MAN I have always fought for the little guy.

    I was also a Stuart in NARFE the Government Union when it first came to the FS on the Angeles NF.
    I also Maintained that membership till I Retired. That ain’t no Company MAN in my Book.

    Reply

  126. Reply to Marti Reed post on May 10, 2016 at 11:09 pm

    Hi Marti!
    Good to know you are still there!
    I hope you ( and yours ) are well!

    I’ll address your “How could Paul Morin have had a radio?” question in another post… but let me take care of this “Jake Guadiana” VIDEO time offset thing, first.

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> There is a video — that I can’t right now link to — that shows
    >> Paul Musser’s blue pickup truck and Gary Cordes’ (a Central
    >> Yavapai Fire Department Battalion Chief) truck at the side of
    >> 89, with Cougan Carothers (a Central Yavapai Fire
    >> Department Battalion Chief) standing there, with Safety Officer
    >> Tony Sciacca standing there, at about the time the Granite
    >> Mountain Hotshots were descending down into that death-bowl.
    >> They”re all gathered there watching the fire head southwest in
    >> the direction of where the GMHS are also heading.
    >> That’s what they were doing.

    Correct… except ( perhaps ) for the “at about the time the Granite Mountain Hotshots were descending into that death-bowl” part.

    It’s one of Jake Guadiana’s videos with filename “USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi”.

    Here is a direct link to that video in the online SAIT evidence folder…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABtgGDgNOKkhnX1Q4E6v4q0a/Photos%20and%20Video/AZFS%20photos%20videos/USB%20YARNELL%20HILL%20020.avi?dl=0

    This Jake Guadiana video has an EXIF timestamp that suggests it was ‘shot’ at 4:16 PM… but it appears that the TIME on Jake Guadiana’s Canon Digital camera ( not a smartphone ) was set 10 minutes AHEAD of real time that day.

    So the video showing this ‘meeting’ on the side of Highway 89 is more in the ‘4:06 PM’ timeframe, and not ‘4:16 PM’.

    See below for the ‘411’ on the ‘time offset’.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> I originally thought this video was taken at the same time
    >> the communique regarding, essentially, “would be good if
    >> you could get here faster but you’re the superintendent”
    >> (the Gamble video), but WTKTT at some point said the
    >> time-stamp on the video put it at a different time.
    >>
    >> So I’m not sure EXACTLY when this video was captured
    >> but it’s definitely around this time.

    It ( the Guadiana video showing the ‘side of the road’ meeting ) appears to have been actually taken a good 21 minutes BEFORE the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video.

    Here’s the 411 on why it appears that all of the timestamps embedded in all of the Jake Guadiana videos appear to be 10 minutes AHEAD of ‘real time’.

    If you look at ANOTHER one of Jake Guadiana’s video ( taken with the same Canon digitial camera ) with filename “USB YARNELL HILL 017.avi”, you see the ‘fireline’ up there on the hill approaching the Model Creep School ICP.

    Guadiana took this video while he and his DOC Lewis Crew were about to ‘evacuate’ from that open field just south of the ICP because of the approaching fire.

    The EXIF timestamp for this 10.48 second long “USB YARNELL HILL 017.avi” video SAYS…

    Camera: CanonMVI06
    Date/Time Original: 2011:03:07 02:47:40 PM
    Duration: 10.48 seconds

    Obviously the DATE is totally wrong… but the TIME is OFF as well ( though not as badly ).

    As it turns out… at the same exact moment Jake Guadiana was shooting this video there in that field… a lot of OTHER people were taking pictures as well. Some of the shots of the fire at that exact moment were captured by OTHER firefighters taking STILL images… with Network connected smartphones.

    Best example is one taken during those same 10.4 seconds by Larz Garcia with his Network connected Motorola Droid Razr Smartphone. We can TRUST the timestamps on Larz Garcia’s phone to be CORRECT, because it was a ‘Droid Razr’ smartphone.

    If you compare the very FIRST FRAME of Jake Guadiana’s video “USB YARNELL HILL 017.avi” with the Larz Garcia STILL photo with filename “IMG_20130630_143745_190.jpg”… there is an almost ‘perfect match’ being seen for the ‘fireline’ up there on the hill, and exactly where it was at that moment… right down to some little ‘flareups’ on the left edge of the fireline.

    So here is the actual EXIF data embedded in the “143745_190.jpg” Larz-Garcia photo which is a perfect ‘visual’ match for the FIRST-FRAME in Jake Guadiana’s video…

    File Name: IMG_20130630_143745_190.jpg
    Camera Make: Motorola
    Camera Model Name: DROID RAZR HD
    Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 14:37:45 ( 2:37:45 PM )
    Create Date: 2013:06:30 14:37:45 ( 2:37:45 PM )
    Modify Date: 2013:06:30 14:37:45 ( 2:37:45 PM )

    So that means the Guadiana video was probably shot almost immediately after this Larz-Garcia 143745_190.jpg photo. Within seconds ( not minutes ).

    The original timestamp in the Guadiana video is 2:47:40 PM.
    The trusted timestamp in the Larz Garcia photo 2:37:45 PM.

    So that’s a difference of 10 minutes and 5 seconds ( call it exactly 10 minutes ).

    That would put all the Guadiana video timestamps exactly 10 minutes AHEAD of real time and means all the videos were shot exactly 10 minutes EARLIER then the EXIF timestamps in the Guadiana videos say they were.

    Applying this ‘minus 10 minutes’ adjustment to the Jake Guadiana “020.avi” video that he took later on, showing Gary Cordes, Paul Musser and Tony Sciacca all together there on the side of Highway 89… we get this…

    Original EXIF data…

    File Name: USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi
    File Size: 17 MB
    File Type: AVI
    Date/Time Original: 2011:03:07 04:16:46
    Software: CanonMVI06
    Duration: 15.31 seconds

    ACTUAL DATE: Sunday, June 30, 2013
    ACTUAL TIME ( based on the “minus 10 minutes” adjustment )…

    4:06:46 PM ( 10 minutes earlier than the 4:16:46 EXIF timestamp ).

    There is actually OTHER proof that you need to ‘subtract’ exactly 10 minutes from the Guadiana EXIF timestamps to get the ‘real’ times.

    In the video that Guadiana shot just previous to his “Highway 89” meeting video ( Video filename USB YARNELL HILL 019.avi ), we see Guadiana shooting an actual ‘bucket drop’ from Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ by a house there on Sickles Ranch Road, which is where Guadiana ( and the DOC Lewis Crew ) were prior to him showing up on the east side of Highway 89 to shoot that ‘meeting’ video.

    That “Helicopter 5KA bucket drop” video has the following EXIF data in it…

    File Name: USB YARNELL HILL 019.avi
    File Size: 8.0 MB
    File Type: AVI
    Date/Time Original: 2011:03:07 03:56:25
    Software: CanonMVI06
    Duration: 8.11 seconds

    The PROBLEM there ( which proves that his Canon timestamp was simply WRONG that day ) is that at 3:56:25 PM… Helicopter 5KA wasn’t even in the air. According to the known good-timestamp Panebaker Air-To-Air channel radio capture videos… Helicopter 5KA was being ‘held’ on the ground at that exact time because Thomas French was doing tanker drops on the north end of the fire.

    However… if you then SUBTRACT the same ’10 minutes’ from the timestamp embedded in THIS Guadiana ‘Bucket Drop’ video… and ‘dial back’ to a time of exactly 3:46:25 PM instead… then BINGO… that is EXACTLY when the same Air-to-Air channel recordings prove that Helicopter 5KA WAS making a ‘bucket drop’ right there in the backyard of that house on Sickles Ranch Road where Guadiana was shooting his video.

    I have more ‘detail’ on THAT… if you really want to see the ‘numbers’ there.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> But the point I want to make is that the video shows that
    >> around the time the GMHS were beginning to descend into
    >> the bowl as the fire was burning towards it, two Battalion
    >> Chiefs and one of the Operations Supervisors plus the
    >> Safety Officer were there on 89 watching the fire, probably
    >> knowing, all things considered, that the GMHS were
    >> heading into it.

    If you accept the ‘subtract 10 minutes to get real time’ adjustment(s) for all of the Jake Guadian videos… then no… GM was not ‘about to descend into the bowl’ at the time Guadiana filmed this 4:06 PM ‘roadside pow-wow’ between Tony Sciacca, Gary Cordes and Paul Musser.

    According to the SAIR’s original ‘guesstimates’… GM would have only been 2 minutes into their hike to the south after having left the safe black at (supposedly) 4:04 PM.

    More later… ( again… good to hear from you! )

    Reply

    • WTKTT–The point you made about Morin possible reason to contact GMHS by his wondering when the GMHS would show up for a back burn along his dozer trail to protect Glen Isla makes damn good sense. We do know the dozer was working or attempting to work a line along the North end of Glen Isla since its tracks there busted up a wall at Kathy Walker’s Father’s house right on that North edge of Glen Isla.

      It appears to me that the only reason that makes sense for the GMHS being so ordered to engage Glen Isla through that dangerous death bowl was that they were bound and determined to prove their worth as structure protectionists–their secondary but not so secondary occupation as wild land fire fighters. It would be a failure in their mind, as well as their bosses, and their bosses bosses minds if they did not live up to that hybrid mentality. Now soon after the fire on our hikes we did see and there had been much bulldozer activity on the north side line of Glen Isla–that drainage was worked, but and quite a bit of clean up activity done in that area. But whether done after the fire we could not ascertain since there was much activity with dozer work in that area after the fire including dozing a road to the death site.

      Also add –good to see Marti back. You always give good input.

      Joy thinks she wants to go pick up a book Fernanda Santos has for us at her book signing in Yarnell. It ought to be an interesting read. Dr. Ted Putnam hiked with Fernanda, Joy, Master Counselor Gail Edwards, Ered Matthews, Jerry Pfingston and me–so it will be interesting to see what she had about Putnam’s input and ideas–as well as other tid bits she might have gleaned from the others.

      The world keeps turning out new books, plays, films and media reports. But none are able to come forth yet with all the truth since it has been laboriously hidden by the Yahoos that think this will be allowed in our new age of fact finding and revelations of fact. So it remains that those that are more careful in their analysis will await the latter day saints of book writing and revelations of truth. Ain’t it a shame that the sham has to be broken in so much time–but we can attribute this to so many gags, redactions, Donut types and those fearful of status and job, and back patting cronies doing their best to save face.

      There are snags, those number one widow makers of the lumber jack–but even those can be safely dealt with. Let the heavy equipment drag them down or even the mules. We have the heavy equipment working on the snags right here on Investigative Media–they are falling one by one.

      Reply

    • Thank you for this. I was vaguely remembering that the video was ten minutes off, but couldn’t remember exactly which way.

      So this makes some more sense in the realm of when, exactly, Gary Cordes and Paul Musser were having their “chat.”

      I also think that it also puts Gary Cordes’ communique to his “troops” to prepare to abandon what they were doing and evacuate where they were working quite a bit later than when he said he did that in his ADOSH interview, and helps explain the total confusion in the narratives they subsequently gave to the media. IMHO

      Reply

      • I think it’s still, also, important to note that at the time this video was taken, the GMHS were leaving their “safe black” area (even if it wasn’t at the time they descended into the bowl) while THESE PEOPLE (two Battalion Chiefs, a Safety Officer, and an Operations Chief) were watching the fire reversing course and starting to head right in that direction.

        And the Safety Officer standing there (and I have massive respect for Tony Sciacca but maybe too much?) had cloned his radio off of Darell Willis’ radio, so he was capable of hearing (whether he did or not) the intracrew radio channel of the GMHS.

        I believe we really need to hold this video in our collection of really important evidence.

        Namaste

        Reply

  127. I’m a non-firefighter, though I have long lived in the West and experienced wildland fires up close (Santa Monica Mountains, 1989; the Aspen Fire, Catalina Mountains, 2003). Growing up in Chicago, the Great Chicago Fire, the Iroquois Theater Fire, and Our Lady of the Angels Fire were often rehashed in the local media. My real interest in the process of wildland firefighting began when I read Young Men and Fire. Since then I’ve learned a lot from John McLean’s books, boards like this one as well as firefighter reporting elsewhere in the web. All this to say that I am an amateur with interests in learning more.

    I am also a retired academic scientist in a field where safety was a constant “concern,” but where rules were sometimes skirted or even scorned. The issues of bureaucracy and CYA are also very familiar. Reading this site, I have developed a few thoughts that I’d like to run by you all.

    First, to Marti Reed, I wanted to pass on a link I read just this morning concerning issues with the conflict between structure protection and wildland firefighter training and mission. I might be misunderstanding you because I feel like this has been a major area of concern in Arizona, Colorado, California, and I’m sure other places. Although it is a old article:

    http://magicvalley.com/news/opinion/editorial/our-view-fire-deaths-can-never-happen-again/article_5c4da75e-643e-11e3-88d0-001a4bcf887a.html

    Points 3 and 5 specifically address this issue. John McLean mentions this issue as a contributing factor to the South Mountain Fire entrapment, as there was a development at the foot of the mountain and the local authorities were fielding a barrage of calls from anxious residents.

    The fact that the GMIHC was under a municipality (structure protection first) vs a forestry-type entity (resource management first) is unique among hotshot crews, so there has probably not been much about that until YHF.

    I also wanted to comment on the pressure that some are putting on Brenden Mc Donough to testify. I think he was correct to lawyer up and go by the book and not testify until compelled to do so. My reasoning is that most here and in the wider FF community believe that more than one person in authority knows exactly why those guys were where they were, and after 3 years have still not come clean. All of those people are better connected and better paid than BM. He and his lawyer can see how the Blue Ridge IHC have been treated. If BM were to volunteer his info, all the fallout would fall on his shoulders. He still lives in the area, still needs a job, wants to keep his life intact. If only testifies when he is forced to testify, then the blame might fall where it belongs, especially if the BR Hotshots were heard, which might lead others to fill in there bits about who was where when.

    I want to thank all of you for sharing all your experiences at Yarnell (Joy and Sonny) and in crews (Bob, Gary, and others). I feel like your voices need to be heard so the whole country can demand a coherent and realistic policy and appropriate funding that will keep the WLFF safe and clear about their missions.

    Note to Joy, you have been asking about the 10&18 and what good they are. It occurs to me that they give the FFs on the line the words they need to articulate their concerns and speak truth to power to protect their own lives. In a 20 year memorial documentary about the South Mountain fire, a few survivors talked about a vague unease that they couldn’t put into words. These guys aren’t lawyers, they are taught to act, but when they can feel the dangers, they need the words to quickly and clearly communicate to a guy who may be a stranger and is not where they are, and who may never have been on a line on a 45 degree incline in dry Gambel’s oak at 3pm. They mistook the wind for copter wash until they realized the copter was gone! They should have called time. There were other human factors there as well, but if every FF on that line could communicate their concerns first to each other and then to overhead, it may have made a difference. There were mere seconds that separated those that survived from those who didn’t.

    Reply

    • Muzzy says May 11, 2016 at 10:43 am
      said:Note to Joy, you have been asking about the 10&18 and what good they are. It occurs to me that they give the FFs on the line the words they need to articulate their concerns and speak truth to power to protect their own lives.

      MY REPLY: I am not asking what good they are- my direct question to the grunts to the leaders was what does the 10&18 and lces mean to them and in it learned their answers are not complimentary so that in itself tells me diverse perceptions and division is amongst the firefighting community.

      Reply

  128. Regarding Paul Morin and possible radio communications with Eric Marsh:

    I thought the dozer operator, Paul Morin, didn’t have a radio (after Trew loaned him one and then got it back), which was part of the problem regarding keeping track of him etc when everything was going to hell in a handbasket.

    Hi everybody. Still reading everything, but this whole conversation regarding Paul Morin has made me a bit crazy. Crazy enough to post this comment as I am totally falling asleep.

    And people think he’s the cajun asking waz yo status????? On what radio would he have been asking that?

    OK now that I’m falling asleep, but finally writing something while seriously falling asleep. Awhile back Gary asked what the relevant Battalion Chiefs were doing when the Granite Mountain Hotshots were heading out of the Black and down into the explosively fuel-filled chimney they were incinerated in. I was hoping WTKTT would answer that question, because I know he knew the answer to that. But he didn’t. So I kept thinking, I probably should write something about that, but I didn’t do that. Because I’m just trying to stay on top of my life, which has taken all I have to give to it.

    There is a video — that I can’t right now link to — that shows Paul Musser’s blue pickup truck and Gary Cordes’ (a Central Yavapai Fire Department Battalion Chief) truck at the side of 89, with Cougan Carothers (a Central Yavapai Fire Department Battalion Chief) standing there, with Safety Officer Tony Sciacca standing there, at about the time the Granite Mountain Hotshots were descending down into that death-bowl. They”re all gathered there watching the fire head southwest in the direction of where the GMHS are also heading. That’s what they were doing.

    I originally thought this video was taken at the same time the communique regarding, essentially, “would be good if you could get here faster but you’re the superintendent” (the Gamble video), but WTKTT at some point said the time-stamp on the video put it at a different time. So I’m not sure EXACTLY when this video was captured but it’s definitely around this time.

    But the point I want to make is that the video shows that around the time the GMHS were beginning to descend into the bowl as the fire was burning towards it, two Battalion Chiefs and one of the Operations Supervisors plus the Safety Officer were there on 89 watching the fire, probably knowing, all things considered, that the GMHS were heading into it.

    OK, now I’m totally falling asleep and will head in that direction.

    Namaste!!

    Reply

    • Oh and PS, as long as I’m falling asleep while writing stuff that I’ve been thinking about and bugged about.

      Gary Cordes said, in his ADOSH interview, that he sent the order out that his crews should prepare to abandon their work in the area above the Youth Camp at 3:50 PM.. I believed that, and thought that his crews negligently ignored that and kept working instead (their stories and interviews are pretty inconsistent about all of this).

      But that Cordes narrative depends on the timeline that includes when Cordes met with Musser on the side of 89.

      I had to tussle mightily with WTKTT and then, finally change all the marbles inside of my head regarding the vehicle Paul Musser was driving. Timing matters. Once I had to agree that WTKTT was correct, and Paul Musser was driving the blue pickup truck, the fact that that blue pickup truck crossed the Air Study video camera at 3:50 PM, that throws what Gary Cordes says about when he sent out that order to his crews to prepare to evacuate in a big bunch of question. That means he probably didn’t do that at 3:50 PM, and, all things considered, quite frankly, I’m not sure he even sent out an order to his crews to quit what they were doing and prepare to evacuate at all, Which fits more into the conflicted narratives they have been giving, after all.

      As in, they had no clue and Gary Cordes didn’t give them any clue either.

      OK, now I am REAlly giving up and going to bed.

      Reply

      • Oh, and another PS, as I’m totally falling asleep.

        I really get this problem of the “fusion” aspect of wildland fire-fighers developing too much of a “structure protection” mind-set in the wildland-urban interface, and I think last summer illustrates how that kind of thinking is getting them killed (and close to killed).

        But I have been searching and searching and searching, and I have not found any kind of this discussion about this phenomenon happening anywhere but here. Can anybody tell me if I’m missing something????.

        OK, now I’m really going to bed, for sure.

        Reply

        • Nice to see a few comments from you again Marti. We do miss you here and the way you bring us back to center. Hope things improve for you.

          Reply

        • I am on sabbatical yet falling asleep reading…soooooo good to see you came here Marti…you have been soooo missed by Sonny and Joy.

          Namaste.

          Reply

          • I have spoken to one of the lawyers wwtktt and without this appeals 🙁 going to trial and still stagnantly waiting the subpoenaed areas sit and wait too. Sad how justice works but there are some of you here that may of heard the pure documented evidence that does indeed lead this situation to more what Gary Olsen has said so in this all I am not say or cheering or being bias but really go back and read Gary…he has shared what has been sitting in evidence ready to be subpoenaed and it does not support RTS or Bob …the evidence. I wish Gary was not right in what he writes because he can be harsh but time will only show… If the cases go to trial which wwtktt is right… It should.

            Reply

        • Hi Marti,
          You’re not hearing anything about it anywhere else because it can mean money and some sort of misguided prestige for municipal fire departments, and nationally, a lot of organizations are actively supporting it, including a bunch I belong to… (i however, actively do not). I was one of the county fire department wildland people, and after watching the county circus performance at Las Conchas, I was determined to get the hell out. and I did. and I now I am actively trying to start to fix it… (which I’m sure will be a difficult and almost impossible task at this point, but at least I’ll be able to say I failed rather than sitting back and doing nothing… )

          Reply

          • My Suggestion WildFire65 See if you can find someone in the NIFC or Ted Putnam could help to locate someone who would listen and bring it to the attention of the National Committees that review Team appointments.
            ICS is Good and Bad depending on the location and the State wiliness to follow all the directives. The Regions also have committees other than that. You will not get much from the Directors Federal and State. They do not really have a clue.
            Good Luck—-
            There use to be a UP and DOWN ratting system on FIRES is that still happening??????

            Reply

          • Wildfire65,

            Tell me about the ” county circus performance at Las Conchas ” You have a unique perspective since you were there. What made you decide to get the hell out?

            Thank you for your contributions,

            Woodsman

            Reply

            • Hey Woodsman,
              Ha, where to start…. the daily “war” briefings on how paid staff (no wildland) would be deployed and how to handle overtime… white shirts with absolutely no clue on how fed fires work self dispatching a structural protection “team” made up of NO ONE with a red card… that team came back the next day after getting kicked off (which is what I heard thru my channels), altho they reported they were no longer needed and demobed… at the same time laughing about how two of the crew members almost got burned over rolling up hose… really, having a good belly laugh about it…
              The entire department in a state of absolute panic… (and this fire was not in their response area)

              The looting of the wildland cache (a lot of which was grant funded) of PPE and equipment for non-recarded personnel… The utter cluelessness of it all along with the politically connected arrogance scared the hell out of me…

              Not to mention the fact that I ran the local IQS (at the time it was not connected to any agency – just a local installation) and being told to “just put something in there to get this guy up to ICT5 (or whatever qual they thought he needed)… being directed by a new wildland captain (who not only didn’t have quals to be a captain, but had less wildland experience than I did)… and who to this day responds more to structure fires and trains structure firefighters – again without quals to do so) and this ONE guy, instructing, evaluating, and certifying taskbooks… At the point of my leaving, all that bogus info in the local IQS database was being connected to the state forestry ROSS enabled IQCS….

              I had transitioned to wildland prevention (we were without a captain, the division was entirely grant funded and I had the grants dumped on me – at least if i had wanted to keep my job, i had to learn how to run grants – and being a single mom, i needed the job… and I was running the division at that point… i was embarrassed to be a part of it. Most of my wildland experience was built in a volunteer department (training with some old time guys who’d been out there 30 years ) prior to all this, altho I mostly got sent out with private contractors in the area who had great engine bosses on their teams and were awesome teachers, along with all the rest of the guys I worked with out there from USFS.

              Now I have a an extreme love/hate relationship with this department… on one hand they are doing things I think are wrong and are really arrogant about it, on the other hand while I was employed they let me run off leash a lot, allowing me to connect and learn with people outside the department and direct my own wildland prevention program (which actually one an award) and got me involved with a whole mess of people nationwide that I can now draw from.

              I’m not generally a direct, in your face, you’re an idiot type of arguer (other than with very close friends), so I tend to work on things in stealth mode and prove them wrong by showing they are wrong… which is what I’m putting together now with a nonprofit. I figure if I can find damn good instructors, train “old school” and get crews together and start instilling a sense of safety first, pride in what they do the proper way, then we’ll start infiltrating the agencies with people who see things the way we do, and beat the municipals at their own game. I’m actually getting funding to start 🙂 I want to build a cadre of instructors who think like this and kick some ass…

              “Course all of this is a long shot, but like i said, I can’t sit back and do nothing.. just not my nature…

              And once more (as I posted once before on a chapter a while back.)… thank you all for what you are doing… this whole mess really opened my eyes to what is happening all over the country and made me sick…. you all have given me the balls to start this thing, some of the ammo i use to make my point to others at national conferences, and a sense of commarderie that I haven’t felt for a while now… even if I have no clue who some of you are… 🙂

              Reply

              • Wildfire65,

                Thank you for your detailed reply to my question. What you are saying corroborates my position on calling a spade a spade. It’s one thing for me to spout off here and point out certain problems in the system, but to have someone with your background saying the same thing, that’s extremely helpful.

                I’ve been around long enough (and worked as a volunteer on the structural side) to know what is going on with qualifications, task books, and red cards. Since I try to provide evidence of proof of my claims, it wasn’t difficult to find it. In the minutes from the meeting of the CAWRT I easily found that they are talking about qualifications, task books, red card, ROSS, how dispatch will work, and how to get reimbursement to their agency from the states or feds. It’s all right there, for anyone that’s knows about the wildfire system, to see.

                You are saying that it happens in a similar fashion in your area of the world. I call it being “pencil whipped” into a position when someone just fills out a task book or updates the IQS (Incident Qualification System) with whatever they want without following the rules to the letter to gain qualification. This “run around” the system could also be referred to as: FRAUD or FALSIFYING DOCUMENTS. I’m certain a prosecutor could think of some other names for it as well.

                Do you agree with me that unqualified personnel on wildland fires across the country are a major problem? Do you have any disagreement or anything to add to my assessment that structural firefighters have gained access to the system for power, money, and prestige? I would love to hear your opinion on the matter even though you have made your position fairly clear with your last post.

                I want truth and honesty. I’m not going to show up on a structure fire and start giving orders on the fireground (even though I was once qualified to do so.) I’m also not going to dispatch myself to a hazmat incident or a motor vehicle accident with entrapment and start calling the shots (even though I was once qualified to do so.) Do you believe that the new “All Hazard” directives coming out of FEMA is an springboard to ‘blurring the lines’ between the qualifications of the 2 fields of firefighting?

                You mentioned something else important: grants. The FEMA assistance to firefighters grant has provided a lot of gear and equipment to fire companies across the land for wildfires. This is not necessarily a bad thing but when structural fire officers incrementally view themselves as having qualifications which are not based in reality – THAT’S a problem.

                I really appreciate your input. In fact, it’s the best news I’ve heard in a while, that someone from the structural side sees the problem. It gives me hope. I will say that I still view my fellow firefighters in the structural side as brothers and sisters. I will help them any way I can on an incident if asked and not beyond my capabilities or authority to do so……..except Battalion Chiefs – screw those bastards, Naw, I’ll help them if their life is in danger but that’s it. After I pull them out, they’re on their own.

                Woodsman

                Reply

                • Oops. I got tangled up in my own rant & lost my train of thought. I meant to say:

                  I want truth and honesty. I’m not going to show up on a structure fire and start giving orders on the fireground (even though I was once qualified to do so.) I’m also not going to dispatch myself to a hazmat incident or a motor vehicle accident with entrapment and start calling the shots (even though I was once qualified to do so.) WHY DO ALL THESE STRUCTURAL FF’S DO IT ON THE WILDLAND SIDE?

                  Woodsman

                  Reply

                  • Reply to Woodsman post on
                    May 12, 2016 at 1:02 pm

                    >> Woodsman said…
                    >>
                    >> WHY DO ALL THESE STRUCTURAL
                    >> FF’S DO IT ON THE WILDLAND SIDE?

                    Because it’s being ALLOWED to happen.

                    If you DID decide to show up at a accident scene with entrapment… and everybody there just said “Hey! Woodsman! How the fuck are ya! Good to see ya brother!”… and then they just said “Why don’t you grab yourself some jaws-of-life there and pitch in and give us a hand. The ON switch is that red dohicky there by the blck thing-a-ma-jig. How’s the wife and kids?”

                    That sounds a lot like what’s happening in the opposite direction.

                    Just a big “Hey… how the heck are ya brother… just jump in wherever you want” sort of circus… and it’s much more important if you just KNOW someone then whether that someone you know actually KNOWS anything about the job itself.

                    Reply

                    • WTKTT,

                      Thank you. I know my question was somewhat rhetorical, obviously.

                      Yeah, I just wouldn’t grab the jaws or anything else because once on scene of anything but a wildfire, I just left my world and entered someone else’. I will drag hose and help pack up, AFTER I ask and they say, ‘sure thanks.’ But I generally stay out of the fucking way. For one thing, ya can’t block the view of the house fire from LEO’s who like to park right up front. They like a front row seat where they can set in their squad car and dunk their powdered jelly donuts into a fresh cup of java while watching the show.

                      “It’s not what you know it’s who you know.”

                      “Sign my taskbook?”

                      “Fake it til’ you make it” rules the day.

                      Shine the light on the bullshit!

                      Keep up the good work, wtktt!

                      Woodsman

                    • It’s starting to sound like it’s all just some constant Kiwanis Club meeting or Masonry Society barbecue/get-together… even when there is WORK to be done.

                      Eric Marsh’s DIVS certification taskbook was ‘signed off’ on by the same fellow who would then end up recording his final words. A ‘Fuels Expert’ employed by the neighboring Prescott National Forest by the name of Aaron Hulburd.

                      Jesse Steed’s ‘taskbooks’ were all being ‘signed off’ on by either not-even-a-wildland-firefighter Darrell Willis or by Eric Marsh himself… whose only actual job-application ever submitted to the City of Prescott was when he first applied for a job on the original “Fuels Crew”.

                      Hey… somebody pass that barbecue sauce and somebody else sing “Danny Boy”!

              • To add a few things— The ICS system was being adopted in City’s and County’s in 1996-1998.

                It has since gone Viral to the point that those that started to handle a multi agency emergency have now totally bought into Wild Land Fire. Even if they have no wild lands within their jurisdiction.

                THE START OF THE HIGHBERD FIRE FIGHTER.

                But it goes further than that the employees even non fire are going into service positions and being assigned to teams.

                I Have a son inlaw who is a city engineer who went to training and is in a city in Seattle. He went to a Fire in Northern Wash. last year as a Equipment Manager on a Team. Never been on a Wild Fire in his life.

                Reply

              • Reply to wildfire65 post on May 12, 2016 at 8:43 am

                Thank you for the ‘report’ and the insights.

                It’s probably happening EVERYWHERE at this point.

                A bunch of fucking boy scouts all ‘signing off’ on each others’ merit badges.

                Only problem is… sometimes people can ( and DO ) get fucking KILLED because of this behavior.

                As one of the persons that’s actually PAYING for these ‘boy scouts’ to help each other pretend they are things they are NOT… I’m more than just disgusted… and more than just angry.

                Reply

                • Yep to all of you…. disgust and fear for me at this point… A lot of what is happening as well is that Dept A in the county decides to fund a “wildland team” – this is no longer just a fuels crew doing thinning work on public lands and fighting little starts on public lands within the county… this is a full blown team, sent on fires across the nation with the blessing of state forestry and USFS… then Dept B across town, sees the money flowing in from the out-of-state assignments and says, whoo hoo, we can do this too and steals from volunteers budgets to fund their own “wildland team” and they too start playing out of state…

                  It’s spreading nationally like wildfire… (sorry…)
                  So all these county tax payers are paying for little firefighter johnny to go to idaho to fight fire and bring back the bacon to the department.. it’s a racket.

                  I remember back when i was hired as a fuels crew member that the captain at the time had a big hard-on for Prescott (“they built a Type 1 Team in 3 years!!!” ) and then he decided he could too… thankfully they have not as of yet, but boy, they sure are trying… all with the help of state forestry.. which is a joke…

                  and its disgusting… and yep, Woodsman, WTKTT, Marti and Bob, it’s FRAUD and it’s WILL get people killed… and it pisses me off to no end…

                  and it’s not like i hate my old department… I don’t. I credit them for giving me the free rein to get to where I’m at now… and I appreciated it very much, but the direction they and other departments are going in are just flat wrong. I believe these departments play an important role in prevention… but that’s not “cool” to them and garners no hero worship… (which is another factor of this whole stinking thing… big fire means big hero worship from the three Ps: press, public and politicians and structural guys just don’t enough of it…

                  A big problem here is the fire prevention division (the ones that inspect buildings and such – life safety issues) are being deprived of needed personnel, and raises and equipment, just so the whiteshirts can look like little fire gods with their “wildland teams” and keep up with the damn Joneses…

                  I’m almost praying for catastrophic fire here just so they can get raked over the coals.. and glass shards… and knives….. and whatever other sharp, gut slicing implements I can find.

                  And yep, I agree with you on the structural infiltrating wildland, and all the little pencil dicks signing off on each others quals is getting ridiculous… I saw this coming a while back and have been racking my devious little brain on how to combat it…

                  In order for me to pull off what I’m hoping to pull off, I’ve teamed up with a private contractor organization who has busted their collective ass to make sure private contractors weren’t pulling this shit. There’s nobody monitoring the fire departments… For that matter there is no one monitoring state forestries either…

                  I’ve got some other folks in CA that are very quietly agreeing with me and some soon to be retired folks from agencies that sort of see what’;s going on as well.. Like I said, I would like to try to beat them at their own game .. I’ve got some good contacts at high levels, I just need a whole lot of backup and a viable solution…

                  I’m glad I could help validate your thoughts guys… it’s absolutely happening and happening in a big way…

                  I would have jumped in earlier, but my whole organization ( I do a lot of education and mitigation work as well, and its new) is at risk from making one wrong move on this so I’m trying to be careful.,. can’t denigrate the public’s heros…. I’m just gathering people to help me and then launch… hopefully a nuke.. .

                  Reply

                  • Thanks again for your honesty… your integrity… and your commitment to try to make things better.

                    It really isn’t just the ‘big elephant’ that some people think it is and it’s all just ‘too big of a problem’ to wrap one’s head around.

                    Even an elephant can be brought down… one leg at a time.

                    The biggest ‘mess’ that seems to be sitting under this ‘rock’ we are turning over seems to be the TRAINING and CERTIFICATION issues.

                    These are SOLVABLE issues.

                    Somehow… what is happening NOW ( boy scouts signing off on each other’s merit badges )… has to STOP.

                    And these ‘Wildfire Training Academies’ that ( apparently ) anyone can start from the living room of their mobile home is one of the first places to ‘take the garbage out’.

                    Just look at the videos posted from the most recent ‘Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management’ training academy held back in March of this year.

                    There is a VIDEO on their own Facebook page of the FF1 class ‘Shelter Training Certification’ part of the class.

                    One of the FFs ends up just standing there, without even the hand strength to pull a tightly packed practiced shelter out of its container.

                    Everyone else is under the shelters and the ‘psuedo burnover’ was already happening… and there this FF stood… still trying to get the fucking shelter OUT of its pack.

                    Finally… the ‘instructor’ ( boy scout of the day ) comes over and helps this FF get the shelter out of the pack. Then the FF is allowed to try and get in it and lay down… and manages to botch that up as well.

                    Everyone is ‘laughing’ at this point.

                    But I will bet you a full box of jelly donuts that any LO or Battalion Chief would crave that this FF was STILL allowed to PASS this stupid ‘class’ and walk away from that AWIMA thing saying they are ‘FF1 certified’.

                    That is simply CRAP.

                    Some people really are not even MEANT to be even trying to do certain things in this life… and ‘quality’ starts right at the front door.

                    Someone has to turn to some of these ‘students’ and start saying… “This is not for you”.

                    Because when you start letting ‘unqualified’ people walk out the door with little red cards or other pieces of paper ( merit badges ) which SEEM to indicate they ARE ‘qualified’ for a particular job… and then you actually let those people become the people who are allowed to decide to if other people coming along are also ‘qualified’…

                    …you get a big fucking MESS of ‘unqualified’ people running around “fakin’ it till we make it”.

                    It’s fixable. It really is.

                    In any other line of work… there’s a BIG difference between people who have attained certain ‘quals’ and are able to perform a certain job… and the people who have ALSO taken a bunch of other TRAINING courses and are ‘qualified instructors’.

                    It can ( and SHOULD ) be HARD to become one of the persons who is actually qualified to TEACH others how to do something.

                    It really is true.

                    Just BECAUSE you know how to run a chainsaw does NOT mean you are actually QUALIFIED to TEACH others how to do it.

                    TEACHING skills to other people ( and doing it correctly ) is a SKILL unto itself… and should require special ‘quals’ over and above just knowing how to DO the task itself.

                    I know the English language pretty well.

                    Doesn’t mean I either CAN… or SHOULD be allowed to TEACH it to someone else.

                    Some of these ‘Wildfire Training Academies’ should actually be ‘raided’ like prohibition era speakeasies.

                    I’ll bet you’ll find a lot of ‘bathtub gin’ in them that needs to be taken out back and dumped on the ground before someone goes blind.

                    Reply

                    • Thank you WTKTT… very much appreciated…

                      I don’t believe it’s impossible to turn this around either… otherwise i wouldn’t be busting my ass trying… I do however think its going to be one big uphill battle, with a bunch of victories along the way.

                      (But if you know some folks worthy of teaching feel free to send them my way… it’s getting harder to find them.. they have to have M-410 and they have to have at least 80 hours of documented instruction)

                      I think kids can be shaped, and if you get them into the right shape while wet, they dry that way… (at least it worked with my kids, and some of their friends)… you train them right, they take that with them to whatever agency, company, or local place they work and as they work up the ranks they change the shitty culture for the better…
                      (the exact opposite of what’s been happening for the last big bunch of years…)

                      you build crews that outshine anything out there in terms of professionalism and safety and you SHOW the way… those crews move into different positions both in and out of agencies and you start to change that shitty culture for the better…

                      While you’re doing all this you form some better checks and balances and oversight to make sure it stays kosher…

                      I don’t know… I got big dreams… but i can see it working over time… you often can’t teach old dogs new tricks, you can’t un-teach making Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes, and you can’t un-teach greed and arrogance…

                      it’s gonna have to be from the ground up…

                      I appreciate your words WTKTT, and your experience and knowledge… I’ve been listening to you ALL for over 2 years (and spent a month or two catching up on the first year…). i don’t ever want to see another cluster like yarnell… I decided to move out of being part of the problem and I won’t whine about a problem before I have a damn good solution to offer first. (then i whine incessantly… *grin* )

                      if anyone cares to help out or even just talk it out feel free [email protected] I could use some good advice…

          • Hey wildfire65!

            It’s really late again for me but thanx for responding!!!

            I’m in Albuquerque and have been thinking about what is going on here in New Mexico. I’m really glad you responded, thinking along the same lines we’ve been discussing here.

            Even though I’m not sure I agree with Gary Olsen’s personal attacks on Bob Powers and RTS, I do totally gut-wise share his anger. This “fusion” stuff is endangering and killing wildland fire-fighters, and it needs to be critically challenged in a system-changing way.

            Will write more tomorrow.

            Namaste.

            Reply

            • Marti,

              Welcome back I think? No…really welcome back.

              Oh…and one more thing, didn’t you pick up on how mean both RTS and Bob were to ME? They started it and both of them said some really hurtful and harsh things about ME and to ME that made ME feel bad! This is after all…all about ME!

              Reply

              • I totally understand, poor Gary, how you are totally capable of being being pounded down and victimized by those big bullies Bob Powers and RTS!!! NOT.

                OMG

                I have to admit, though, I’ve been a teensy weensy bit slightly offended by how you have assumed to have characterized my experience at Prescott College. Our motto in the Anthro/Archeo Dept (one of the best in the country at the time) was “Work Hard, Play Hard,” and we were kept to that. Literally. I really had to do that. Not that I’m sure that other Prescott College students were held to those standards. But we were. Seriously.

                None of this is about YOU/ME!!!!!!

                This is, IMHO, about calling the system onto the table as to how they are approaching fighting wildfires in the ($$$$$$-rich) “wildland urban interface” where the record shows that, because of how structure-protection-oriented people (like that Battalion Chief on the Twisp Fire) are putting wildland fire-fighters in places they shouldn’t be put doing things they shouldn’t be doing.

                Amirite??

                Reply

  129. WTKTT–Ones that would be assigned in Fire Camp and on Radios also receiving all resources reporting to the School Fire Camp. There were as well a number of people reporting all day to the School as well as the Helibase management who would have been set up on Radios in a Truck or at a table talking on Fire and Air to ground. There were a lot of people that could have made that call in your Cajon Accent.

    In the resource Orders

    Overhead
    Base Camp Manager Howard Carlson 6/30/13 @ 0800
    Communications Unit Leader Clarence McMillan 6/30/13 @1130
    Either one of those two would be a possible person running the camp and Radios

    Also other local Fire people could as well been working to set up camp never on any order.

    We know that Overhead and FF were reporting to the School Fire Camp all Day as orders were filled I guess we can go from there or you can if you chose————

    Reply

    • I understand what you are saying.

      Yes… circa 4:13 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… there were a LOT of people just ‘pulling up’ to this fire and trying to figure out what the fuck was going on.

      Safety Officer Marty Cole himself ( former Granite Mountain Fuels Crew Superintendent ) had only just arrived right about that time as well.

      A LOT of people ( circa 4:13 ) could have been wondering “What the fuck is up with Granite Mountain?” and have jumped onto their newly-cloned radios and just started ASKING them to ‘report status’.

      But here is what will not ‘go away’…

      1. Whoever WAS asking Granite Mountain “Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?” at 4:13 PM really DID appear to have that kind of easily-identifiable heavy accent.

      2. Whoever that person was ALSO appears to have definitely been answering Marsh’s radio responses using the “Ten-Four” comeback instead of the standard WFF “Copy” or “I copy”.

      3. A LOT of OTHER people must have heard this radio callout clearly, since it was on an open TAC channel, and might have even been standing right next to this person when they were making that exact radio call.

      4. It is STILL very IMPORTANT to know WHO THE FUCK that was making that radio call and having that ‘conversation’ with Eric Marsh at exactly 4:13 PM.

      Once we know WHO it was… maybe then we can find out WHY that conversation was even taking place at that time… and what ELSE this person making that call might KNOW.

      Unitl we know WHO it REALLY was… it could have been a LOT of people… bulldozer operator Paul Morin ( acting as just a RELAY for someone else? ) included.

      Reply

      • I would bet that the Tractor Operator Morin and Ball were Talking on a distinct channel and the Operator was not even on the Fire Channel probably did not even know what the other channels were. He was not a regular to Fire operations or the 16 Channel Programmable.

        On that Tractor you would not want to be receiving all the different Radio Traffic.
        It makes since that they would be set up on one channel, so they could talk with each other. It is dam noisy in the cab of a Dozer for those who have never been there.
        The chances that Morin was on any other channel is slim. Ball would have been monitoring the Fire channels for any thing else that is how it works. I doubt
        Morin was familiar with any thing that had to do with Fire. First Clue he was not RED CARDED.

        Again If Fire Camp had a set up with a Radio Operator which is normal SOP .
        That person could have been requested to contact all the line personnel/Crews/Engines to check on their status when the Fire started making its run. Especially a Crew hung out on a Mountain. That would be way more possibility than a Tractor Operator. That is a Very thin thread to a conversation.

        Reply

        • I still hear what you are saying…

          …but I find it just as unlikely that there could have been people at the actual IC command center ( as you are suggesting ) that might have been ‘tasked’ with ‘checking on the status of resources’ circa 4:13 PM… and that fact has NEVER come out in all of the investigations and interviews… as the theory that someone might have asked the dozer operator Paul Morin to act as a ‘relay’ for them to contact Granite Mountain circa 4:13 PM ( due to line-of-sight or other communications issues ).

          All we have are ‘theories’ at the moment… but it wouldn’t be the first time that something which started as a ‘thin thread to a conversation’ here on this forum turned out to be the full blown truth.

          Reply

          • Check the Names I posted and their positions they both were at Fire Camp before Noon of the 30th.
            Fire camps actually do that communication thing. They relay information from camp to the different Supervisors and relay messages.
            They notify OPS and others of resources arriving and send out Supplies to the Line. The Line calls and orders things out of Fire Camp.

            Also The Helicopter Base is Talking with the Line and Air. They have a mini office set up with Radios and talk with Fire camp for supplies. and fill requests from The Fire Camp.
            It is a complex thing with many different activities going on. A Communications Unit Leader or the Base Camp Manager could be doing just that, at a table near the entrance to Camp. Every body was reporting to the School and had to check through those two.

            WTKTT That is what the Fire Camp sets up to do the IC dose not do it all
            They order and assign resources to handle the Radio traffic to and from the fire. If some one on the fire needs something they call —-Fire Camp DIV A. The fire camp relays information and talks direct to all the resources on the Fire. THE IC IS NOT ON THE RADIO ALL THE TIME..
            The IC can and dose request a check on recourses by the Fire Camp Radio Operator. All of the above is not uncommon and Camp Help can very with assignment. It is part of the service organization.

            I have never seen a Tractor Operator asked to relay a Radio Message.
            The as you call them Prescotter’s were in fact monitoring the Radio from GM and Marsh. They could have as well relayed any Messages.

            Tractor operators are not part of the major chain of overhead. They are more like the FF on a Crew they work directly with the STLD Tractor and do what they are asked to do. In the chain of command they build line.

            Unless they have head sets hearing the Radio is difficult and they have to stop to get directions.

            There is a 99.9% probability that no one would call a Tractor operator to relay information The only one that was even talking to the Operator was Bell. That’s the way it works and it would not have been on a main freq.
            More like a Crew Freq. or separate assigned Channel.

            Reply

            • For the third time…

              Yes… I understand what you are TRYING to say.

              But sometimes I wonder what FIRE you are even talking about.

              You keep talking about what is SUPPOSED to happen at a fire as if that is what was REALLY happening in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

              There is still no evidence that the things you say were happening up above at the ICP ever took place that day.

              To the contrary.

              There IS all kinds of evidence that the ICP was a ‘ghost town’ and that even if we can see people in or near it in photographs, people showing up to the fire in the 4:00 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe ( the timeframe we are talking about with the 4:13 radio call to Marsh ) couldn’t even find anyone to either clone a fucking radio or even give then an assignment.

              Here are just TWO examples of that…

              ** CHRIS HORYZA
              ** NO ONE WAS AT THE ICP CIRCA 4:15 PM

              Chris Horyza was ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell at 9:00 PM on Sunday night for a TFLD position on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

              He wanted Arizona Forestry to supply him with a vehicle and a radio before he would report to Yarnell.

              Arizona Forestry did both… but the delays in arranging those things meant Horyza didn’t get to Yarnell until 1330 ( 1:30 PM ) on Sunday.

              When he showed up, Planning OPS Paul Musser told him he would be assigned a NIGHT shift… and he should get some sleep.

              So Horyza laid down for a nap in one of the classrooms at the ICP at 1400 ( 2:00 PM ).

              When he woke up around 4:15 PM ( 2 minutes after the ‘stay-tus check’ radio call to Granite Mountain at 4:13 PM )… he discovered there was absolutely NO ONE THERE at the ICP command center.

              Not even anyone around to give him any kind of ‘assignment’.

              From Chris Horyza’s typed Unit Log…

              ————————————————————-
              1615 ( 4:15 PM )
              I went ( to the ICP ) to find Operations to see what my assignment would be so I could try to get familiar with the area before shift. NOBODY WAS AROUND. I had my radio on and tuned to command and air-to-ground channels being used by the fire. There was a lot of excitement and it was obvious the activity trying to deal with the fire was CHAOTIC.
              ——————————————————

              ** MARTY COLE’S ARRIVAL AT ICP
              ** NO ONE THERE WHO COULD CLONE A RADIO

              Also… Safety Officer Marty Cole didn’t even arrive in Yarnell on Sunday until shortly before the deployment. He wasn’t even ‘ordered up’ as a Safety Office until 1330 ( 1:30 PM ) on Sunday afternoon… but Cole still waited until all his paperwork was emailed to him confirming his order before he lifted a finger to leave Prescott and head to Yarnell.

              Tony Sciacca ( the other Safety Officer ordered up on Sunday ) called Cole at 1345 ( 1:45 PM ) and said he ( Sciacca ) was already on his way to Yarnell… but Marty Cole still told Sciacca he wasn’t going to bother leaving Prescott until he (quote) “got the order in writing”.

              That didn’t happen for another 45 minutes or so ( at 1430 / 2:30 PM ), and only then did Marty Cole leave Prescott to go be a ‘Safety Officer’ down in Yarnell.

              According to his Unit Log… when Marty Cole arrived in Yarnell and went to the ICP… there wasn’t even anyone there who could clone a radio… so he had to immediately head out to the fireline in the hopes of finding someone who could do that.

              Cole never actually says WHEN he arrived in Yarnell… but according to the text of his Unit Log it was just shortly before the deployment.

              From Marty Cole’s Unit Log…
              ——————————————————
              Arrived at ICP.
              Asked in ( Fire ) Camp if anyone could clone a radio.
              No one could.
              Proceeded to the fire area to get someone on the fire
              to clone radio. Saw one of the AZ State trucks along
              the highway and asked for a clone.
              When I approached him alot of radio traffic.
              He asked me to standby while he listened to the traffic.
              Listening to the traffic I heard a excited voice… Granite Mountain 7
              calling to, I believe, Air Attack.
              ————————————————–

              Reply

              • For Christ sakes the People were ordered and arriving all day in Fire Camp the SCHOOL YARD. What the fuck do you think they were doing?
                Read the fucking Orders time and dates. That is how a Fire camp builds people are coming in to cover the Night shifts and the Camp supplies are arriving hourly people have to be there to handle the incoming Orders and that is how it works.

                I am telling you because I have been there a thousand times and this is no different go look at the orders for every thing that arrived that day the 30th from 0800 on.

                I am not guessing at any thing you are simply not aware of how a Fire camp forms and how people are ordered to make it work . This was a expanding out of control fire that needed all the people in place PLANS–SERVICE–FINANCE–RADIOS–EQUIMENT MANAGERS and all the people that work under them to Provide Communications, Fire supplies, Meals, Sleeping, Parking, Bea Days Team was showing up and filling in organizing etc.

                They do not all show up at the same time and the camp is ready to go they were transitioning to a type 2 team and a functioning camp.. They send out trucks and trailers with camp supplies they send out people to get the camp started.
                They send out Radio systems with repeaters. Radio Technicians to set up Radios.
                Look at the fire orders, overhead, Supplies ETC. It is all there.

                Reply

                • It is unbelievable to me that you are trying to equate just what is written in an ‘ordering’ system with what might ( or might not ) have ACTUALLY been happening in a particular place at a particular time.

                  The Yarnell Hill Fire NEVER ‘transitioned to a Type 2’ team.

                  You don’t even seem to have that FACT straight about what happened that day.

                  Roy Hall WANTED to go to a ‘Type 2’… and just started willy-nilly doing that without anyone’s actual permission… before Scott Hunt and David Geyer called him up and said THEY had decided to ‘skip over’ a Type 2 team and go straight up to Clay Templin’s ‘Type 1’ team.

                  In the absolute chaotic MESS that ensued ( people from Bea Day’s team showing up and thinking they were supposed to work the fire when they were NOT )… no one really knew what the fuck was happening.

                  At the moment someone ( with a heavy accent ) was calling out to a Type 1 Hotshot team and asking them what their STATUS was ( at 4:13 PM )… there was still no “Incident Action Plan”, still no maps being handed out to anyone, still no repeaters installed ( or anyone even trying ), still no clear person who you were even supposed to ‘check in’ with ( ADOSH found ‘check in’ notes written on the backs of envelopes ), the Planning OPS had LEFT the ICP and jumped into the chaos as the SECOND fully functioning ‘Field OPS’… confusing the shit out of everyone who was already working that day. There were no OPS level people at the ICP after 3:30 PM that could even tell anyone arriving at the ICP what the fuck they were supposed to be doing. The IC was still walking around clueless without even a radio and still just pissed that he got ‘over-ridden’ by higher ups.

                  It was an absolute… bloody… MESS.

                  But you’re telling me I should just “go look at the resource” orders and that’s gonna make all that ‘go away’?

                  Seriously?

                  Please stop just thinking because you have seen certain things happen in a certain way before… that that automatically means that’s the way things ‘must’ have been happening on this particular Incident.

                  This Incident was in a ‘class of its own’.

                  The trains were so far ‘off the rails’ on this one that nothing even resembled a ‘train’ anymore… circa 4:13 PM… when someone was making radio calls saying…

                  “Granite Montun… wuz you stay-tus rat now”?

                  Reply

                  • Did not say it would clean any thing up just said there were a lot more people on the fire in varying positions than the names we know.

                    The Resource orders tell you that. All I am saying is you are not looking at the total number of people that were arriving on the 30th and working to set up the camp ETC.

                    You are looking at to narrow of a group that was actually there. The Helitack is a good example of people managing that operation and monitoring Air and Ground Radio Traffic they could also relay information.

                    To You WTKTT let me say I have one hell of a lot more experience setting up a Fire Camp After IA fails It really builds with the Team on the Fire they were setting up at the School no matter how big or how small the Camp there are things that happen. I was a Supervisory Dispatcher on the Sawtooth NF for 16 years. The fire goes past IA and you start building a Base Camp to take care of the Resources.
                    The morning of the 30th. they had over 100 people on the Fire. They were ordering more. They needed Plans Service Finance and a Place to put people. Feed people and supply people.

                    The IC can not do that and run the Fire to.
                    Known Fact the Base Camp Manager arrive there at 1130 so says the Resource Order.

                    He/She would have immediately started setting up the Camp.
                    Parking–Communications–Check in for resources–Supply area—Command which was already in the School.
                    THAT IS WHAT A BASE CAMP MANAGER DOSE.
                    Every body was being told to report to the Model Creek School BASE CAMP

                    MY only point through all of this has been there were more people on Radios than the few you keep working with. At some point that day the IC could have had a Fire camp Radio operator. as well as others at Camp working on the Radio.

                    So I will say like you —You have no Idea either what was going on at the Base Camp.

                    There could well have been some one there under the direction of the IC Checking with GM.
                    You assume there wasn’t I believe there was —–

                    Granite Montun…wuz you stay-tus rat now?

                    Much more plausible than some Tractor operator.

                    The bottom line no one knows where or who made that Call. I continue to say it was not Morin so the search goes on. I am just saying there are many other options more plausible than some Tractor operator that never used a 16 channel Radio in his life or was ever on a going fire. HE WAS NOT REDCARDED…………..

                    Reply

  130. Reply to Woodsman post on May 10, 2016 at 9:28 am

    >> Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> I heard of a story (directly from someone I know who was there
    >> and a witness – so 1-part removed ‘hearsay’) that a DIV(t) in
    >> Oregon last summer, actually demanded the saw of a contract faller
    >> because he didn’t like how a snag was being handled. He got the
    >> saw from the faller and proceeded to attempt to cut the tree himself.
    >> According to my source, the tree was felled the wrong direction putting
    >> several personnel in harms warm – a near miss. Unbelievable!
    >>
    >> There are all kinds of yahoos out there!
    >>
    >> And I have to say, it must not have been a real timber faller that
    >> gave up his saw because, well, that’s just not going to happen…
    >> to put it lightly. One would be putting their health and well-being
    >> in immed1iate peril for even suggesting that a real timber faller.
    >>
    >> My example was meant to illustrate just what can and is happening out
    >> there on today’s firelines.

    Speaking “what CAN and IS happening out there on today’s firelines”… get da load of a comment that just appeared on Mr. David Turbyfill’s discussion about Yarnell over on Facebook…

    True to what he said he was going to do… Mr. David Turbyfill ( father of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) has started a ‘discussion’ over on his ‘Yarnell Fire Realities’ public Facebook page that focuses on the ‘Initial Attack’ at Yarnell… and what ‘Lessons’ can be learned from that failure alone.

    https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/

    A VERY interesting comment appeared already from firefighter Jared Judd.

    While not directly related to the topic of the Yarnell Hill IA… his comment IS directly related to the current discussion about ‘LCES and the 10&18’.

    He talks about CURRENT rampant and “unmitigated violations of 10/18, worker rest ratios, dangerous tactics etc etc.” on the fires he had to work even recently.

    ———————————————————
    Yarnell Fire Realities – Hosted by David Turbyfill

    PUBLIC Comment from: Jared Judd – May 7 at 10:30 PM

    I worked under several teams last year on multiple fires that I considered to be guilty of “dereliction”. To the point that I started taking notes, making video and audio recordings of interactions with over head as well as unmitigated violations of 10/18, worker rest ratios, dangerous tactics etc etc. Once you open your eyes to it you begin to understand its endemic in the system. I hope the wildfire boat is guided back toward a higher level of professionalism in the near future. Hopeful, but not holding my breath.
    ———————————————————

    SIDENOTE: According to his own PUBLIC Facebook page, and the article below, Jared Judd is a (current) contract Firefighter for the United States National Park Service. He lives in Helena, Montana but has also frequented three different places in Texas… Trinidad, Mesquite and Burkburnett.

    AJC ONLINE
    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/firefighters-battle-flames-fatigue/nQwk6/
    Article Title: Firefighters battle flames, fatigue
    Published: 12:21 p.m. Monday, June 27, 2011
    By Mark Santos of The Atlanta Journal Constitution

    Reply

    • WTKTT,

      Good find on Mr, Judd’s post. It’s a real problem. Their are a lot of “FAKE IT TIL’ YOU MAKE IT’ people gaining positions on wildfires across the country nowadays. The best thing for personnel to do out there on today’s firelines is to watch your ass. You might be the only one doing that at any given time. Check and double check just what the hell is going on.

      Woodsman

      Reply

  131. Let me gather myself together; feel like mush. I ran into again…God led day…Carl and funny thing we both were wearing our NEVER FORGET tees so I joked on it and he said “yeah, he does change it every few days”..me too.

    We talked more this time than the last time. He stated he never yet read On the burning edge, My lost brothers or the fire line but he did state he wishes the authors fact check on information on the men.

    He has no plans to read them but when he came to me for a hug I was gonna do my usual side swipe ones; quick release but I felt every depth of his sorrow in that hug that I actually “hugged” him as if I was pulling out that ugh energy and he commented how well a hug is in his life–I stated I just gave him all my energy…

    he pulled out a new photo of his granddaughter from one of his daughters as he babysat recently—we spoke on Clayton and well Sonny explained how this has affected him and I said the hikers may we not always get the proper respect in media/books/etc. expect the freedom of speech on Investigative Media which has been the best platform to get information out for many looking for clarity on the YHF and there is an understanding of our account in full on that page.

    Sonny will type his moment but I briefly wanted to mention that and no Carl does not know Morin- never heard of his name. I enjoyed listening to his depth of love for Clayton- anytime — we are always there for all affected by the YHF and books can come out and disregard the true accounts of the YHF or even on us but I won’t give up on the people…won’t…because again it was never about books or movies but getting the information out because a man on the YHF can tell me a civilian it was “organized chaos” so that is like saying I am the best rifle shooter and never miss a shot and hike out and hunt with you and miss every deer…that’s my take on organized chaos…what a oxymoron…”cruel kindness”….seems the same…or “I am going to have two signed books for both of you from start to just recent corresponding”…but then notice I have to meet n greet with Tidey family and Montgomery family even though I told Joy books were assigned to loved ones…so again wwtktt felt I was writing because I like Santos and met her but you never met a bolder person who straight up says it like its happening not ever worrying if I am going to hurt another’s feelings because in my world that person did not think their actions of broken commitment would hurt mine in anyway- when that person as well as the world knows Sonny and I are to be identified by accounts as individuals not THE HIKERS because we are not always together and we both always contributed with Santos but always making her acknowledge we are 2 people not one household.

    Reply

    • • Kristi Whitted, widow of Hotshot Clayton Whitted; and parent Carl Whitted, seeking a total of $15 million – $10 million for the spouse, and $5 million for the parent.

      they actually received HOW MUCH for a life lost that SHOULD OF NOT HAPPENED?

      Reply

        • What are they called ….sabbaticals… I’m on it…apology to dale1 for offending him and apology to Santos who stated she got another copy and was not neglecting but again one more time publicly… When the missing elements surface all the books out so far are too premature to talk fire and its a sensitive topic and I am made to feel I did the wrong in calling out Santos on how I feel because she stated she only promised the families when I have four accounts it was her who said to us on topic…off I go to gather more information on fire vs writing my frustration with all reporters and authors saying something than changing it than even saying others did not ask for book…well I didn’t ask for it but it was offered four times and than taken away and just has been the repetitive way of folks we hiked for the most part except josh well and Brian Mockenhaupt followed through and JD never did a book but allowed me to write even when its not been print worthy just venting and gabbert never restricted me so there are some….I am pissed still so best to get away from online ….

          Reply

          • I received Fernanda Santos book at 4pm today — The Fire Line— I read 219 thru the end first including index trying to locate the two hour interview she had with Dr. Ted Putnam but saw nothing so I began to read from prologue to end and it is a book I will reread and reread—-it has a lot of information not only for my investigation but areas I shelved and forgot and hers had more information and depth than Donut’s which hers should sell more copies even though Donut was sole survivor…I began to feel the humanizing factors to the book and first off thank each and every family member or person who took part in this journey to make her book—a lot of work…yes I did catch errors even Shane’s last name has two r’s and if any of those loved ones felt rumors cored from this site— page 225 where she acknowledges John Dougherty for him making sure Santos never missed any newly released public information yet her fire information kept to the SAIR because she was not doing her book from the investigation angle or blame point of fingers and stayed with original SAIR so any new information did not get changed in her book yet she acknowledged the man who made this site John Dougherty—we never have placed information to “orchestrate” but we may discuss and disagree and such yet none of us in trying to share has charged others for our information—true, right…and yet from this site you learned Joy and Sonny bumped into Carl and he shared his granddaughter photo and she was named Juniper after the Juniper tree; GMHS one. That is neat humanizing tidbits never cost you a cent to read…the stuff Juliann did on her blog humanizing her journey as she travelled with her kids for the world to peak in; neat…and she did not charge any of us a cent…that’s humanizing but really what we need to do is thank the book writers and directors and such for all the hard work yet keep focused to the ultimate reason we all come here to this day—why did 19 men leave the black?

            I am sorry I am on that sabbatical and in a lot of pain trying to run bunch of tests to get to why and what to do next…but I wanted to say I did get my copy and Sonny too and I prematurely jump the gun earlier this week on Santos based on one email from her during an intense pain week where I read wwtktt’s reviews and it bothered me a lot on the fire facts- a lot…I got angry…felt and questioned areas…I also KNEW I was to NOT be in book at all but out of heart and soul and because the world knew there was GMHS on the Weavers we got mentioned—but I am okay on all information on us because the book was on the men not the hikers- and so I cannot murder this book and actually have heard so many locals positive feedback on her book signing event moment today at 2pm here in Yarnell- I could not since I was at hospital; ekg, labs, xrays and such…trying to narrow down some areas—and know more in a.m. because I took the long way around this world I guess…or that’s the way its done…okay…I have prematurely wrote on here on other women in the past except I adore Marti Reed but maybe there is something to this premature posts before talking private and lessons need to be learned for me…that’s the irrational part but what Cancer sign is not irrational and moody- go look up the astrological sign— to me I reckon but Santos did not deserve me calling out how I did…I guess I grabbed a spoon when I saw wwtktt posts on the book and when it was said I met her and such than I felt like wait…it brought it out…I was not biased and I was feeling as I did at that time because I had went to er after one of her hikes…I should of cancelled that hike but I went ahead and did it- but it cost me thousands in costs out of pocket- so I guess if people really knew how much I sold off and donated and spent free labor hours I was like listening to WWTKTT on what she wrote in book about us as ” a hiker who took a snapshot”…I got moody because without Marti Reed I probably would not be here right now- she did me a life changing moment and I forever hold gratitude for a women I never met. Marti is my hero in the aftermath of the YHF…Marti, when I get well I have the good news that I come back to you here…are we the only females on an all male blog as commenters? besides the pop-in ones…. 🙂 good night.

            Reply

  132. I’m not sure where to put my random thoughts on the latest developments so here they are:

    1. Santos works for the mainstream media, New York Times? Her books seems to have areas that serve to protect certain individuals at the Yarnell Hill fire from responsibility, which has the effect of shielding the organization they work for.

    a. Burfiend – the concept that AA answered the distress calls from GM without delay

    b. A Blue Ridge member operating the dozer instead of a Yavapai county employee

    2. I agree it’s very unlikely a hotshot squad boss would take over a bulldozer from an operator BUT it sounds as though the county sent a man without a red card, wildfire experience, from the county landfill or other county facility, so? Some of the best contract equipment operators on a wildfire are loggers not county public works dept employees. Operating a piece of equipment on a wildfire is way different than operating one at a landfill or a construction site. Conventional wisdom clearly doesn’t apply to the Yarnell Hill fire in many areas we have seen, so…anything is ‘possible.’

    3. The more I find out about how the Yarnell Hill fire was managed the more I understand the different aspects of the cover-up.

    4. I concur that someone that uses “10 codes” ie: “10-4” on a wildfire is not accustomed to working on a wildfire.

    5. Battalion chiefs are mini-Hitler egomaniacs whom are accustomed to ‘running the show.’ I’m not surprised that several aspects of the management of the fire were ‘all fucked up.’

    6. Retirees should stay the out of wildfire management after they retire because they no longer have the edge they once had…at least in operations & planning. I’m going to put my money where my mouth is personally on this one. Leadership by example, if you will.

    7. Municipal firefighters should go back to what they do best and cease getting firefighters injured & killed on complex wildfire incidents. Here’s a quote for your edification as an example from the latest devastating wildfire in Fort McMurray, Alberta, CA: (source: Firefighter Nation)

    “Fort McMurray Fire Chief Darby Allen said there are currently no buildings on fire, but he expects that to change.

    “This is a nasty, dirty fire. There are certainly areas of the city that have not been burned, but this fire will look for them and it will find them and it will want to take them,” Allen said.”

    Chew on THAT one for a awhile.

    According to this Fire Chief, this particular fire has the ability to think for itself. So, fires have a conscience and think for themselves now? That IS a bad one…

    8. City fire departments should not develop & maintain Hotshot crews. The main reason Prescott did not keep the crew after the tragedy is because of liability exposure not because the fire department thinks they made a mistake in having one.

    9. What should have been or what normally has been can be throw out the window when it comes to study of the Yarnell Hill fire.

    10. Someone who knows what they’re doing should interview Mr. Morin before it’s too late.

    Woodsman

    Reply

    • Woodsman

      Its too late

      Over a year ago I sent a certified letter that after a month was returned to MD unopened. Every time I had to do Sonny’s assessor stuff I tried there. Every time Sonny had business that was where he lived my eyes were like hawk eyes…unreachable and unapproachable and even at last years 2015 wildland firefighters convention Morin was my topic and even those men said Morin lives in town and wants to continue so he will keep silent but for three years Morin has been my focus when a homeowner showed me pics of a wall down before the fire hit and destroyed it so I went to owner and asked if they had pics…the family stated a bulldozer tracks led right to the concrete wall so far that I wanted to talk to Morin on his account of the yhf. There is proof long ago on this site he has been one of the missing elements I mention

      Reply

      • MD was me…the cell replaces words at times..I’m no MD except my docs have text me they like my spirit for what I face and keep it up.. Yeah..technology
        .text not snail mail…

        Reply

      • Well…I wouldn’t really have to actually interview Mr. Morin, all I would have to do is to ask him, “Mr. Morin…did you call the crew on the radio?” And if he answers something to the effect of, “allez vous faire foutre” we will know we have our missing Cajun.

        Really? I am having WAY too much fun with Google Translate.

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing. They’re right, French IS a beautiful language. The French even say, “Go fuck yourself”, beautifully.

          Reply

          • I remember this discussion way back?????

            I thought we had narrowed the person down to the Fire Camp Dispatch.
            There was a Camera in front of the check in desk that picked that message up. One of the Dispatchers was a Black person?

            Or I am totally off here.??????
            There was a picture of two people at a Table and some one filming the Fire in front of the School and the Table.

            Reply

            • I am drawing a complete blank on that one, although I was out of the loop for several months while we were moving.

              Reply

              • I know we had a discussion on that possibility way back and I believe that WTKTT picked it up, It was I believe during the Pictures of the vehicles driving by the school parking area headed to the Restaurant..

                Reply

                • I don’t have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

                  You know you can use Google and confine your ‘searches’ to a specific domain, right?… like http://www.investigativemedia.com?

                  Just use Google Advanced Search, then limit all ‘searches’ to domain name http://www.investigativemedia.com... then just ‘search away’ for anything you can think of.

                  All searches will then be confined to only documents and articles at ‘www.investigativemedia.com’… such as ALL of the chapters of this ongoing discussion.

                  Reply

                  • Understand but not sure where to go/start.

                    During this same type of discussion way back there was a TV camera in front of the School area taking Pictures of the Fire and Paned to two people at a Table with several Radios and you could hear the AA and Fire Frequency’s in the Back ground one of the People with the Radios was a Black Person. I could not tell you even what chapter we were discussing that in.

                    It definitely was a TV crew in the Fire camp area .

                    Not sure what to start a search with????
                    So forget the whole thing and continue with what ever else you think the Voice came from. I got a $100 it wasn’t the Tractor Operator. That would be the lest likely suspect My guess. There would have been background noise from the tractor unless it was shut down. Why would he call GM and ask that question?

                    Reply

                    • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 10, 2016 at 5:48 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> During this same type of discussion
                      >> way back there was a TV camera
                      >> in front of the School area taking
                      >> Pictures of the Fire and Panned to
                      >> two people at a Table with several
                      >> Radios and you could hear the AA
                      >> and Fire Frequency’s in the Back
                      >> ground one of the People with the
                      >> Radios was a Black Person.
                      >>
                      >> It definitely was a TV crew in the
                      >> Fire camp area.

                      I honestly don’t recall that… but boy howdy… if such a piece of video/audio exists… I sure would like to see/hear it.

                      I’m assuming from what you said above that this particular ‘video’ you are recalling seemed to have also captured that 4:13 PM “Wuz you stay-tus rat now?” radio callout that Marsh responded to?

                      Or even (perhaps) SHOWED that one of of the persons in front of the camera was the one actually MAKING that radio call?

                      Like I said… boy howdy… I hope you ARE right and I hope you can remember where the hell that video might be… ‘cus I’d sure love to see/hear it.

                      You MIGHT be right. Now that you mention it… I think there IS evidence that there were TV crews being ‘allowed’ into the Model Creek School ICP area… but I honestly don’t recall ever seeing any video like the one you are ‘remembering’ now.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> So forget the whole thing and continue
                      >> with what ever else you think the Voice
                      >> came from. I got a $100 it wasn’t the
                      >> Tractor Operator. That would be the lest
                      >> likely suspect My guess.

                      If it turns out that bulldozer operator Paul Morin really DOES have sort of a ‘heavy accent’… and that he DOES normally use “Ten-Four” instead of “Copy” to acknowledge radio responses… I think we have our man.

                      Forget the ‘accent’ part for a moment.

                      Who ELSE… other than someone who doesn’t normally work Wildland Fires… would EVER respond to a WFF radio response with “Ten-Four”… other than “Copy” or “I copy”?

                      Law enforcement?
                      Volunteer firefighters?

                      Certainly not any trained WFF or ICS command level person, right?

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> There would have been background
                      >> noise from the tractor unless it was
                      >> shut down.

                      That’s actually a good point.

                      The background radio capture there is very faint ( but can still be heard ). Maybe too faint to hear any ‘background in the background’, so to speak… but I will put the headsets on again and actually CHECK that.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> Why would he ( the dozer operator
                      >> Paul Morin ) call GM and ask that
                      >> question?

                      Well… you know me.

                      If I take the ‘safeties’ off my ‘imagineering’ instincts… I can come up with all kinds of reasons why.

                      Just ONE of them might go like this…

                      4:13 PM was exactly the same time that Cory Ball had already arrived in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant after having ‘delivered’ the Blue Ridge Chase truck to that location from where it had been parked out at the same place the dozer loboy was staged.

                      It’s also the same time that Cory Ball ( according to his own Unit Logs ) received a ‘new assignment’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

                      According to Cory Ball himself… SPGS1 Gary Cordes told him “and one other” to “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah”.

                      We still don’t know WHO the OTHER was that Cory Ball was talking about when he specifically wrote in his Unit Log “me and ONE OTHER”.

                      Maybe that “one other” was actually Paul Morin, the dozer operator.

                      So there is Cory Ball in the RHR parking lot… with ( we still assume ) Paul Morin still back where Lakewood drive ends and the loboy trailer was staged. Cory Ball was trying to get ‘back there’ but now needed an ATV to do that and to accomplish the ‘scouting’ Cordes had ordered him to do.

                      Maybe ( at 4:13 PM ) Cory Ball himself tried to raise Granite Mountain to get their ‘status’ ( as in… what kind of PROGRESS had they made on their hike to town and WHEN did they think they would be ‘in town’ and available for emergency line burnouts.

                      But maybe Cory Ball ( at the RHR parking lot ) could not get a response from Marsh or Steed… because of “line of sight” issues from there.

                      So while Cory Ball was arranging for someone to drive him over to the Yarnell Fire Station to get the ATV ( which didn’t happen until 4:27 PM, the same time as the YARNELL-GAMBLE video )… Ball WAS able to still talk to Paul Morin out there at the end of Lakewood… and Cory Ball said exactly this to Morin…
                      ——————————-
                      Hey Paul… I’m getting a ride over to the Yarnell Fire Station to get an ATV so we can scout that emergency dozer line… but I can’t get ahold of Granite Mountain. See if YOU can get ahold of them from where YOU are and ask them TWO things…

                      What is their STATUS right now?
                      Is DIVSA Marsh WITH them right now, or not?
                      ——————————–

                      So maybe ( just maybe ) bulldozer operator Paul Morin did just that… and since he WAS still out there at the END of Lakewood drive and much closer to Marsh and Steed… Paul Morin WAS able to contact them and ask Marsh those two questions.

                      ( End of imagineering ).

                    • In other words… what we might be hearing captured in the Air Study video is a RELAY.

                      You know… when someone asks someone else to call someone else and ask them something because the first someone can’t seem to contact the other someone because of “line of sight” issues, or whatever.

                      Maybe bulldozer operator Paul Morin was just acting at the ‘relay’ there, since he WAS out there at the WEST end of Glen Ilah and he COULD actually make radio contact with both Marsh and Steed.

                      But Paul Morin wasn’t used to doing that sort of thing ( acting as a RELAY on a Wildfire incident )… and that’s why we hear him using the “Ten-Four” acknowldegement during the conversation instead of the standard WFF “Copy” or “I Copy”.

                      Maybe Paul Morin didn’t give a shit where Granite Mountain was… or whether DIVSA ( Marsh ) was WITH them or not… but somebody else did… and they simply ASKED Paul Morin to be the RELAY for that exchange since HE could contact Marsh/Steed and the other ‘someone’ could not.

                      That actually happens all the time on an Incident… right? Someone else has the right ‘line of sight’ to communicate with someone else when you can’t?

                    • Off all the things that stuck around on Radio conversations The 10-4 was the one many copied with that code and still do.
                      Its a Carry over from all the 10 codes.

                      I may have first misspoke on the statement made in your Cajon Accent. That was not in the film but the Fire was going to hell in the Video so would say some time during the crew movement.

    • Woodsman said, “5. Battalion chiefs are mini-Hitler egomaniacs whom are accustomed to ‘running the show.’ I’m not surprised that several aspects of the management of the fire were ‘all fucked up.”’

      And I say, “I think Woodsman should stop trying to protect Battalion Chiefs and structural FIREMEN in general and he should STOP sugar coating it for the rest of us and tell us what he really thinks about them.”

      Reply

      • Gary,

        One of my many weaknesses is having a tendency to beat around the bush. I’ll work on it.

        Woodsman

        Reply

    • Mr. Darby Allen is a STRUCTURAL FIRE CHIEF…

      He may or may not have any wildfire experience..

      Just saying..

      and no disrespect mean towards him.

      Reply

      • Rocksteady,

        Thank you for helping to strengthen my point of the underwhelming level of knowledge, skills, and ability of structural firefighters in the wildland realm. My assessment is not meant as a personal attack on anyone. The structural firefighters simply are not qualified to manage a complex developing wildfire. It’s not their game but they’ve made it their game….and it’s not working out.

        I’ve donned the SCBA with full gear and performed interior attack on a structure fire as well back when I was currently certified to do so. I don’t ever recall a fire in a structure seeking me or anyone else out and trying to burn me. And this guy became chief? How does anyone explain that?

        I have had some run-ins with angry beavers trying to seek me out and do damage but never a fire ‘trying to get me.’

        Woodsman

        Reply

  133. Reply to Gary Olson post on May 9, 2016 at 9:14 am

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> Which brings up another point for all of those who want to
    >> know the rest of the story. I actually would like to know a
    >> lot more about Morin if anybody out there does. He very well
    >> might be someone who knows if there was indeed a Hail Mary
    >> plan and what it was because they may have told him about it.
    >> Especially if it was to push in a last minute fire line and then
    >> have the crew backfire from it just as soon as they got there by
    >> beating the speeding train across the tracks (so to speak).

    Yes… and it has ALSO always been ‘possible’ that one of the voices we have always been hearing in the 4:13 PM timeframe talking directly to ‘Granite Mountain’ *could* have been bulldozer operator Paul Morin himself.

    If there WAS this ‘last minute plan’ and HE was involved with it ( along with Cory Ball ) and he was, in any way, aware that Granite Mountain was involved with it, too… then HE ( Morin ) very well *could* have been trying to find out himself what Granite Mountain’s ‘status’ was… at 4:13 PM.

    Maybe he was even TOLD to do so. Cory Ball was ‘hung up’ obtaining that ATV from the Yarnell Hill Fire Station at this time ( and on through 4:27 PM )… so maybe Ball even told Morin to go ahead and contact Granite Mountain DIRECTLY ( himself ) and try to find out where they were and when they might be ‘arriving’ out there.

    And the following is going to freak you out a little.

    ‘Morin’ is a FRENCH surname… and the origins of the ‘Morins’ in the United States are found in ( drumroll please )… LOUISIANA.

    Yep. CAJUN COUNTRY

    Once again… the radio transmission heard at 4:13 PM…

    “Granite Montun ( Five? Fire? )… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”

    See more DETAIL below about the ‘Morins’ originating in LOUISIANA.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> Who is Morrin and is he a private contractor or a government employee?

    In June of 2013… he was still a regular Yavapai Country Public Works department employee.
    His wife appears to be Jane Morin, who works in the Yavapai county assessor’s office.
    So they are ( were? ) BOTH ‘Yavapai County’ employees.
    That *might* explain their reluctance to talk about what happened.
    It might have been ( cough, cough ) ‘suggested’ to BOTH of them that they do NOT.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> Where does he live and work and how can I contact him?
    >> Inquiring minds want to know.

    Just ‘Google’ the following three words ( be sure to put the quotes around “Paul Morin” )…

    “Paul Morin” prescott

    The first THREE search results are all him… complete with address and phone number(s).

    ** THE DOZER ORDERS

    Here’s a ‘summary’ of the two ‘shifts’ that were worked on that dozer between 7:00 AM Sunday, June 30, 2013 and 2:00 PM Monday afternoon, July 1, 2013.

    Paul Morin had the first shift on that dozer there on the south end of the Yarnell Hill fire… and fellow Yavapai County Public Works employee Donald Rezzonico took the second shift starting at MIDNIGHT on June 30, 2013. Paul Morin had gone ‘off the clock’ at 9:00 PM that Sunday night, after working a 14 hour shift on the dozer.

    From the original bulldozer SHIFT records obtained by Joy Collura via an Arizona Open Records request…

    The dozer that was working the south end of the Yarnell Hill fire on June 30, 2013…
    ——————————————————————————————-
    Dozer: Cat D7R / Serial # 06562 / From: Yavapai County
    Shift 1: START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM) STOP: 2100 (9 PM) Hrs: 14 Operator: Paul Morin
    Shift 2: START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight) STOP: 1300 (2 PM) Hrs: 13 Operator: Donald Rezzonico
    ——————————————————————————————–

    ** PAUL MORIN *MIGHT* ACTUALLY HAVE A ‘CAJUN ACCENT’?

    The following information is all either just a ‘creepy’ coincidence… or it might actually mean something with regards to WHO also might have been trying to talk to Granite Mountain circa 4:13 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and find out what their STAY-TUS was ( where were they ) at that time.

    From the ‘Family Tree’ online website…
    https://www.familytree.com/surnames/Morin
    ————————————————————————–
    The Morin surname is very common in FRANCE.
    Within the United States the Morin family name originated in LOUISIANA…
    ————————————————————————–

    FRENCH based name? United States origins in LOUISIANA?

    As in… CAJUN Country?

    Hmmm.

    According to the US Census for the year 1840… we see the beginnings of the ‘Morin’ surname appearing in this country. Those ‘origins’ were CONCENTRATED in the LOUSIANA area.

    According to that 1840 census… there were only TEN ‘Morins’ residing in the United States.

    SIX out of those 10 ‘Morins’ were living in ( you guessed it )… LOUISIANA.

    By the 1880 census… the largest concentration of ‘Morins’ was still in LOUISIANA and EAST TEXAS.

    Reply

        • The only mention of even ‘the dozer’ in the SAIR document is when they were describing Blue Ridge’s arrival in the Sesame Area and the moment SPGS1 ( Gary Cordes ) was replaced with BR Hotshot Cory Ball as HEQB looking after the dozer.

          Gary Cordes had actually REQUESTED a ‘replacement’ before this time ( circa 10:00 AM ) and Cory Ball was only now arriving out there circa 10:30 AM to actually replace Cordes. The SAIR doesn’t mention this.

          The SAIR also never says WHY this was all happening and WHY SPGS1 Gary Cordes had gotten ‘stuck’ babysitting the dozer in the first place. It was because the dozer showed up without the operator having the proper red-card qualifications to even be working on an Arizona State Forestry fire ( and he also showed up without even a radio ).

          The SAIR just made it all sound like BR Hotshot Cory Ball was ‘volunteering’ to take the HEQB position ‘just to be helpful’.

          On PDF page 24 of the original SAIR document…
          —————————————————–
          The Blue Ridge IHC parks their crew carriers next to the Granite Mountain IHC carriers. The Superintendent (BR Supt) and Captain (BR Capt) unload their utility task vehicle (UTV) and continue along Sesame Street. They encounter SPGS1 who requests a Heavy Equipment Boss (HEQB) to manage a dozer and clear out the two-track road on both sides as far as possible to provide access and to prepare for possible backfire. Blue Ridge assigns one of their squad leaders, who is qualified as an HEQB, to help.
          ————————————————————-

          Reply

          • Although ya…if he and his wife, or if just he is a county employee, good luck getting him to give it up. If fact, if he just lives in the Prescott area (Prescott Valley counts) and if he wants to keep living there…good luck.

            Reply

            • Yavapai County itself was NAMED in the original Property Damage Lawsuits…. and the amounts being requested by the plaintiffs would pretty much have put the entire County up for sale on Ebay…

              …so yea… forget just the “you won’t get your retirement money” pressure… it was ( for a while ) far WORSE than that ( for Yavapai County ).

              I don’t care how you ‘cut it’… going to court and having to admit you fulfilled an Arizona Forestry contract with unqualified personnel where 19 firefighters ended up DYING was NOT going to ‘look good’ for Yavapai County.

              It still doesn’t.

              The same ‘property damage’ suits are actually still ON APPEAL… and haven’t actually RESOLVED yet.

              Reply

              • Two Points of interest.

                Morin lives in Prescott and Works for the County.

                First he could very well have known Many of the FF including Marsh and GM. Did he ever work with them on Brush removal
                in the County?

                In a local County State Fire you can get recourses assigned from City and County that are not Red Carded Wild Land Fire
                But have a background and Qualifications to Run all Kinds of Equipment. Normally these are replaced after the first 48 Hours. The County Provided the only available cat that could move brush with a qualified operator not Red Carded.
                Many Tractor Operators are Not Red Carded for Fire that is why they always have a Tractor Boss assigned.
                At the City and County level that happens quite often. The State and Feds are more critical of Certifications but even AD equipment Contractors have very little Fire Training.
                I have never seen them receive the first 40 or any more than a quick go thru on the use of a Fire Shelter.

                Just my Observations on this one normally they depend on a carded STLD Tractor to provide direct Supervision.

                Most of the Tractors that are contracted for the Fire season Under a full X number of days Contract, they are red carded. Initial attack standby equipment. The operators who work for the BLM, FS, and State are Trained and Carded.

                Reply

                • Forgot to Add the County Tractor could have been signed up for emergency Fire use with Operator. happens all the time.

                  Reply

    • Whoa…you might have found the Cajun we had on the lam.

      M. Morin, avez-vous appelé l’équipage sur la radio?

      Reply

      • See ‘followup’ post below. Whoever asked Granite Mountain ( at 4:13 PM ) “Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?” ALSO responded to Marsh’s answer with “Ten-Four” ( instead of “Copy” ).

        Maybe just the kind of thing a guy with no actual red-card and not a lot of Wildland Fire work experience might say when someone shoves a radio in his hand ( that he doesn’t even own )?

        We still don’t know the full story… but SOME of the evidence suggests that someone named ‘Hernandez’ was supposed to come with the dozer ( see Dispatch Logs )… but then some guy named ‘Paul Morin’ shows up instead on Sunday morning… with no red-card and no radio.

        So it still could very well be that something happened with ‘Hernandez’ ( the guy at Yavapai County Public Works department who normally goes out on wildfires and DOES have a red-card ) that Sunday… and rather than NOT send the dozer at all… they just tapped this other Yavapai Public Works dozer operator named Paul Morin to take the dozer to Yarnell… regardless of the fact that he didn’t have a red-card ( or a radio ) and wasn’t even that familiar with WFF radio protocols and whatnot.

        Maybe this guy Paul Morin had a LOT more to do with what was really going down with Granite Mountain that afternoon than has even been previously thought.

        Reply

    • Santos said “A Blue Ridge squad leader sat behind the wheel of the bulldozer Cordes had requisitioned, replacing a driver who didn’t have a supervisor directing his work, wasn’t clear about his assignment, and didn’t have a working radio of his own. The squad leader powered the dozer uphill, toward the old grader.”

      I have never seen a bull dozer that has a steering “wheel” on it! Levers…yes, controls…yes…pedals…yes….thing a ma jigs they push and pull on…yes….wheels…no.

      You just can’t make this shit up…or can you?

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on May 10, 2016 at 12:51 am

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> I have never seen a bull dozer that has a steering “wheel” on it!
        >> Levers…yes, controls…yes…pedals…yes….thing a ma jigs they
        >> push and pull on…yes….wheels…no.
        >>
        >> You just can’t make this shit up…or can you?

        LMFAO

        Well.. I guess if you are the New York Times Arizona correspondent ( day job ) and they give you a ‘sabbatical’ ( read PAID VACATION ) to go write some fucking book… yes… you can make up any damn shit you want… and MAKE MONEY off it as well.

        Is, This. A. Great. Country. Or. What.

        PS: More “FACTS you need to know about the Yarnell Fire” from the New York Times Arizona Correspondent…

        1. Jesse Steed and the GM Crew work working the SOUTHEAST corner of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        2. Eric Marsh spent most of the day “scouting” to the NORTHEAST of where Jesse and the crew were working.

        Hmmm… let’s see… that means Eric Marsh spent most of the day just shooting the shit with Sun City West Captain Darby Starr out in Harper Canyon by the Shrine Road Youth Camp.

        And that’s just PART of what appears to be an absolute case of “Directional Dyslexia” on the part of this Fernanda Santos woman.

        Wait for it.

        Reply

    • Followup… regarding the *possibility* that it really was dozer operator Paul Morin himself who was asking Granite Mountain about their ‘status’ at 4:13 PM…

      What has always been ‘interesting’ is that whoever that was that had ASKED Granite Mountain “Wuz yo stay-tus rat now”? appears to respond to Marsh’s comeback with “Ten-Four’ and not ‘Copy’… and then immediately asks Marsh that ‘followup’ question of “Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”

      Ten-Four? On a Wildfire?

      That, itself, COULD indicate the caller was not all that familiar with Wildlfire radio protocols and not actually a WFF at all.

      You know… maybe just like someone who doesn’t even have a ‘red-card’ for being a dozer operator on a Wildfire… as was the case with Paul Morin?

      Someone who hadn’t worked a lot of Wildfire’s and when someone put a radio in his hand… was more likely to acknowledge radio calls with “Ten Four” instead of just “Copy”?

      Here is that complete 4:13 exchange from the Panebaker Air Study video.

      Notice that the same person who ASKS Granite Mountain “Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?” is the one who also acknowledges Marsh’s response with “Ten-Four” ( instead of just “Copy” )…

      From Panebaker Air Study video 20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP
      ——————————————————————————————–
      NOTE: A pretty heavy accent on this next speaker. Sounds like Louisiana Cajun?

      +0:41 ( 1613.30 / 4:13.30 PM )
      (Unknown): Granite Mountun ( Five? Fire? )… Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?

      ALSO NOTE: Even though the caller asked for ‘Granite Mountain’ specifically, and not ‘DIVS A’… Eric Marsh responds immediately on behalf of Granite Mountain before Jesse Steed even has a chance to say anything. Jesse only appears to ‘chime in’ with his own ‘status’ report about “we’re pushin’ our way down into the structures” when Marsh is done speaking.

      +0:54 ( 1613.43 / 4:13.43 PM )
      (Eric Marsh): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. (slight pause) mid-slope, cuttin’ over.

      +1:07 ( 1613.56 / 4:13.56 PM )
      ( Another voice immediately adds to what Marsh said but it is )
      ( NOT Marsh this time. It sounds like Jesse Steed )
      (Jesse Steed?): We’ll be pushin’ our way down into the structures.

      NOTE: Whoever is talking with Marsh at this point uses the phrase ‘Ten four’ to acknowledge a transmission instead of the usual ‘Copy’ or ‘Copy that’. This, itself, should help to identify the caller.

      +1:21 ( 1614.10 / 4:14.10 PM )
      (Unknown): Ten four. You with Granite Mountain right now?

      +1:24 ( 1614.13 / 4:14.13 PM )
      (Eric Marsh): Uh… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.
      ——————————————————————————————–

      Reply

  134. Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 9, 2016 at 5:16 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> I personally don’t care about any of the books especially
    >> after hearing wwtktt reads parts of recent book and we were
    >> told it was about the special bond and togetherness of the
    >> men and yet I have to admit I was sticking up for recent book.

    Joy… I never said that ‘kind of stuff’ is NOT in this Santos book.

    It is… but also probably not to the extent anyone really thought it would be.

    The actual TEXT of the book ( including the PROLOGUE ) is only 213 pages.

    The other 52 pages are just ‘fill’ at the back with sections like ‘Acknowledgements’, a botched-up Timeline for the fire ( I will show that piece-of-work shortly ), and then a huge ‘NOTES’ sections where she tries to justify or show what she considered to be her ‘source’ for various statements and quotes in the 213 pages of ‘narrative’.

    So between her actually TRYING to tell the “story of the fire” ( Friday THROUGH Sunday ), and all the “stories of the men” ( who they really were )… and wax philosophically about her perceived “bond between the men” ( and this, she thinks, is the sole reason none of them tried to SAVE themselves )… ALL in just 213 pages… she basically comes up SHORT on ALL of those ‘goals’.

    When I said that if you want to know more about the men who burned to death, and what they liked to eat, and what music they listened to, and what ‘bedtime’ stories the daddies would read to their kids… then you just might actually LIKE this Santos book.

    Because that kind of stuff really IS also ‘in the book’.

    Examples…

    Page 17…
    Woyjeck liked to have a beer with the guys on the crew and loved to dance to country music at a honky-tonk called Matt’s Saloon on Whiskey Row on Saturday nights.

    Page 45…
    Steed, in command while Marsh nursed his injury, had proposed family barbecues on Saturdays when the crew wasn’t busy fighting fires— lunchtime get-togethers open to all wives, fiancées, and girlfriends, children, and dogs. They gathered at Heritage Park, a short drive from Station 7. Warneke grilled the burgers. DeFord made jalapeño poppers, which were a huge hit. Juliann Ashcraft baked cookies, with different batches picked by different members of the crew. Wade Parker ordered chocolate chip and bacon. Brendan McDonough asked for peanut butter and jelly. For Steed, Juliann made orange dreamsicle cookies, his favorite and a specialty.

    Page 62…
    En route to fires out of state, the guys walked out of restaurants with their pockets full of single-serve Tabasco packets and boxes of Cheerios. They did some serious damage at all-you can-eat buffets.

    Page 87…
    A little after eight o’clock Saturday evening, Jesse Steed arrived home in Prescott Valley. He’d downed a cold Coors Light and some take-out Thai food.

    Page 89…
    Garrett Zuppiger carried the Audio-Technica record player he’d bought with savings from his first fire season into a new apartment, along with his vast album collection— music by the Shins and the Decemberists; Paul Simon’s Graceland.

    Page 265…
    Travis Turbyfill used to read Goodnight Moon to his daughters over the phone while out fighting fires.

    etc… etc… etc…

    But if you expect there to be anything in this book that sheds any real light on WHY these 19 fathers and sons and brothers burned to death on the floor of a blind box canyon… fuhgetaboutit.

    Even disregarding the absence of any ‘revelations’ and the fact that it’s just another missed opportunity to shed some light on what REALLY happened… a HUGE amount of information that is being pawned off as FACTUAL in this book… is NOT.

    >> Joy A. Collura also said…
    >>
    >> the book is named the fire line when I was at the fire line
    >> before the 19… and I was much a part of the fire line moment
    >> than just some hiker passed by and took a snapshot.

    I still think it’s disingenuous of Santos to make it sound like you did NOT actually ‘meet’ Eric Marsh ( almost a full HOUR before meeting Steed and Crew )… and that your only contact with any of them was to just take that one picture of the men ‘hiking’.

    >> Joy A. Collura also said…
    >>
    >> I also have no intention of reading the book.

    Well… then here is EVERY place in the Santos book where you are ‘mentioned’.

    It’s not much… but here is ALL of it…

    ** In Santos NARRATIVE itself ( only ONE reference to a ‘hiker’ )…

    NOTE: This is the ONLY mention anywhere in the book of any ‘hiker’ or ‘hikers’, and it’s also the paragraph that, while mentioning that Marsh was ‘out ahead’ of Steed and the Crew… Santos is still trying to make it sound like they were all hiking out to the ridge in the same timeframe. They were not. There was almost a full HOUR of SEPARATION between the time hikers Joy Collura and Tex (Sonny) Gilligan first met Eric Marsh out near the ridge and Marsh asked THEM what the best way to
    get to the fire was… and Steed and the Crew then ALSO meeting up with Joy and Sonny almost an HOUR later.

    This paragraph also ‘suggests’ that the ‘hikers’ had ONLY met up with Steed and the Crew, and then took that picture of them. There is NO MENTION at all of them actually having met up with Eric Marsh as well… almost an HOUR earlier.

    And there is certainly NO MENTION of what Tex (Sonny) Gilligan has reported many times… that by the time they saw Steed and the Crew hiking up to try and rejoin Eric Marsh… most of them looked ‘spent’ even at that early hour in the day.

    On page 114
    ——————————————-
    At 9: 18 a.m., a hiker snapped a picture of the Granite Mountain Hotshots passing by her and a friend. The men trudged along a path of stone and cured grass. They were at fifty-four hundred feet; from up there, Yarnell looked like a toy village. Steed, in his red helmet, led the line. He looked stern and purposeful. Marsh was up ahead as a scout, tying pink plastic ribbons to bushes every hundred feet or so, marking the way as he climbed to fifty-six hundred feet.
    ——————————————-

    So that’s it ( in the actual TEXT of the book itself ).

    Santos’ then does actually NAME the ‘hikers’ mentioned on page 114 in the BACK of her book in both her ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS and NOTES section(s).

    ** In Santos’ ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS section

    On page 217…
    ——————————————-
    Chuck and Leah Tidey put me up at their home in Yarnell and, along with Kathy Montgomery, introduced me to many people there and in Peeples Valley, helping bring an important aspect of this story to life.

    Joy Collura and Sonny Gilligan guided me on several hikes along the path traveled by the Granite Mountain Hotshots and shared recollections of their encounter with the men on the day they died.
    ——————————————-

    ** In Santos’ NOTES section…

    On page 244…
    ——————————————-
    “At 9: 18 a.m., a hiker snapped”:
    Time stamp of picture provided by the hiker, Joy Collura.

    “as he climbed to fifty-six hundred”:
    Joy Collura and her hiking companion, Sonny Gilligan, guided me on two hikes along most of the path followed by the Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013. The altitude was measured by Ms. Collura when we reached the spot where she crossed paths with Eric Marsh that day.
    ——————————————-

    On page 249…
    ——————————————-
    “but through dense, unburned brush”:
    Based on author’s observations from three visits to the edge of the saddle through which the Granite Mountain Hotshots descended, photographs of the area taken by hikers Joy Collura and Sonny Gilligan prior to the fire, and observations made on two visits to the Hotshots’ shelter deployment site, at the bottom of the canyon.
    ——————————————-

    That’s it.

    That’s the TOTALITY of any mention of ‘hikers’ or the names ‘Collura’ and/or ‘Gilligan’ anywhere in the book.

    As I said above… I think it was ‘disingenuous’ of Santos to make it SOUND ( in the actual NARRATIVE portion of her book ) like you did NOT actually meet or interact with Eric Marsh, when HE is the one who actually asked YOU ( and Sonny ) what the best way to get to the fire was… but that’s just MY opinion.

    If YOU feel that any of that is ‘inaccurate’ or you are being ‘misrepresented’ in this book… you need to take that up with Fernanda Santos and/or her publisher.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      In case you were wondering… as far as Brendan’s new book goes… there is absolutely NO MENTION of any ‘hikers’ or specific mention of either YOU or Sonny ANYWHERE in the entire book.

      Zero. Zip Nada.

      Even though Brendan spends 3 full pages talking in detail about the ‘hike’ out from the GM Crew Carriers.

      As far as Brendan reports… there was NO ONE OUT THERE prior to them arriving and ‘catching up’ with Eric Marsh at the ‘anchor point’.

      Not you… not Sonny… not the Easter Rabbit… No one. Zero. Zip. Nada.

      Reply

  135. By the way I do not take meds of any form…these hot feeling I have today is all natural because I have grown so tired one after another of these reporters/authors say things but they don’t commit and even if it came out of one’s pocket because you said two signed books than follow through is my way of thinking…

    Now another topic- recently Bob Powers and RTS and Gary Olsen all sharing their firefighting history made me feel why was there a discord on the topic 10&18 and LCES since it is just a checklist- right. My beef still to this day on that topic IS THIS—I am putting myself as Marsh and I am on the cell and radio and I am getting told from people WITH RESOURCES promises and when I go I misunderstood during the chaos a LEFT – his left or my left and in doing it a bad move was made but still I am promised air attack and people got my back now that the lookout is driving our buggies and truck out- THERE IS MISSING ELEMENTS. So it made me want to research the topic from the grunts to the higher ups to see what the 10&18/LCES means to them. I went boldly and emailed as Gary called me an amateur question and I am getting replies- I did ask a person on the YHF on 5-5-16 12:19pm and I got a reply today 8:28am to call and talk on the 10&18/LCES and at 8:56am I replied I would after I professionally served a subpoena today so it would be closer to a lil’ after 1pm. At 1:06pm-1:14pm (8m 31seconds)…did you note I just said I would call him a lil’ after 1pm and I did just that- I DO WHAT I SAY! Okay, since the system has these golden rules that some say you CAN obey them and some say you cannot- I wanted to ask and know what others in the industry think about ANOTHER STYLE of the rules being they were made in the 50’s and maybe we can recognize with all the lives already lost that we do live in a new world of fire burning and homes being built like lil’ ol prison camps AKA subdivisions so is there the SAME standards from the bottom to the top? So that when management when fighting a fire when chaos happens have the same standards for their fire plan/decision making when talking to crews below them? The man I spoke to knew my name yet never touched base on yhf really—but I felt I was treated just like Santos wrote it—-just some hiker who took a photo of the men who died— WTF did I do the rest of the day? Do we need to call forward LIVES that WE saved by being on the Weavers because some idiot Yarnell firefighter told the hikers Saturday they had it ALL under control and it was safe for us to hike it- REALLY? Houses gone. and 19 dead. Yeah, you had it under control all right-Could of been MORE if we did not help that day- idiots. So this guy goes from one part of the call saying 30+ than to another—40 yrs in the business…hotshot…fire dept…forestry…okay and he was taught that the rules were established in the 50’s as a “rule of thumb” or “watch out”—I want to know did someone promise the gmhs something so then that based on a higher ups assurance and promise these men went out of the black and broke these 10&18/lces based upon promises that were in the end broken….I learned from him that Structure and Wildland have same kind of rules and same types of qualifications and its engrained it is how to do business- and I explained maybe the change in formatting the rules different because of how fires are burning and how many houses are being built and how come in the end the blame is in SAIR for the gmhs decisions but where is the accountability/responsibility of the higher ups in this all???? I am pissed today…HOT….did you know no one historically speaking asks this guy questions like I did but was very kind in answering them- seemed like I was talking to Bob Powers though—he mentioned the word “organized chaos”…what does that mean for a civilian like me to comprehend? The final answer on this- NO GREY AREAS when it comes to the LCES or 10&18- you FOLLOW them; you are alive but again what if a higher up encouraged and as well promised support and then in the end that mission failed—any accountability for that person? why lay the blame solely on the leaders of these 17? Oh yeah—ready….if you follow the checklist equals success but if you don’t= can be failure.

    I want to thank the grunts and management for helping me on this quest; anonymously or not but it is an important topic to me much like Paul Morin.

    Reply

    • I don’t think I called you an “amateur”, I think I used a different name because you asked Don the wrong question or at least you phrased if much differently than I would have so you didn’t ask him the right question in my mind and so you set him off on a tangent that was not actually what I was discussing.

      Like I said, my argument is very nuanced and it NOT for those who see the world in black and white. Like I have said before, my world was black and white and full of color at one time, but it has been nothing but grey for as long as I can remember now…nothing but shades of grey, there is no good or bad, no right or wrong, no up or down, no wet or dry, no morning or night, no black or white or color…just grey…nothing shades of grey.

      Everything is situational. Being a manager and working in certain jobs will do that to a person. I am far from alone in suffering from that malaise.

      Reply

  136. **
    ** FOLLOW THE BOUNCING BRENDAN

    I’m still working on a more complete ‘fact check’ report for BOTH of the books that were released just last week… but that’s turning into more of a project than I had imagined… because they are both SO BAD when it comes to reporting the FACTS of the entire weekend.

    But before I report more on the Santos ‘butchery’… here are some ‘highlight’ coming from Brendan’s new ‘tome’.

    Brendan’s book suffers the same problem as the Santos one.

    There appears to have been little-to-no actual FACT checking.

    It really looks like author Stephan Talty didn’t even get Brendan himself to ‘fact check’ the thing before it went to print.

    Example: The book has Brendan leaving his lookout mound at 3:55 PM.

    That’s total horseshit and that is just what was printed in the original SAIR. Even Brendan’s photographs with known-good timestamps that he, himself, took after Frisby dropped him at the GM vehicles were taken at 3:49 PM.

    The book also says that Arizona Forestry never ‘contested’ the original ADOSH citations and fines.

    Total horseshit. Arizona Forestry ‘contested’ them right away and requested that now-infamous ADOSH ‘appeal hearing’.

    Brendan ( Talty? ) also actually says that it was Eric Marsh himself who was doing all the ‘screaming’ during the 4:39 PM MAYDAY radio traffic.

    More horseshit.

    And Brendan ( Stephan Talty? ) is literally “all over the place” when it comes to what he did or didn’t know on Sunday afternoon.

    He contradicts HIMSELF over and over again… even only a few pages after saying something else.

    Examples…

    * Page 210…

    Brendan says…

    “The Boulder Spring Ranch, the bombroof area that Granite Mountain had scouted
    that morning, was 1.6 miles away. We all believed they were moving toward it.”

    * Page 218 ( Just 8 pages later )…

    Brendan says…

    “I had no idea they’d moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.”

    * Page 230 ( Just 12 pages later )…

    Brendan now says that right after the deployment… he was ASKED if he knew
    where Granite Mountain might be… and Brendan says he told whoever was
    asking him that ( he doesn’t say WHO, of course ) the following…

    “I told them the crew should have been on the two-track going toward Boulder Springs”.

    Reply

  137. Joy,

    I have been thinking about it and I have decided you are right and WTKTT is wrong. Santos’ book is NOT garbage. I’m not sure what it is though…would it be a comedy or possibly a satire?

    When I was THE Forest Dispatcher and THE Coordinator of an interagecny zone fire operations center one of my many jobs in the “off” fire season was to train and certify SWFF fire crews in addition to being a Contracting Officer Representative (COR) for procurement.

    In other words, I was a field representative for the forest procurement/purchasing section of the Santa Fe National Forest Supervisor’s Office. Other COR’s handled setting up fire contracts for the various districts but I handled it for the City of Santa Fe for the Forest as a whole. This was really a fun job in what otherwise was a boring office job.

    I got to go around and find and then negotiate with the owners of various pieces of equipment or others who were willing and able to provide services and goods to the USFS when a fire started on the Santa Fe in the future.

    The USFS like I said to Bob the other day is not something you can love or hate, it is too big, too complex, and too diverse to fit into either of those categories. They do some things really well and other things really poorly and that changes depending on the location and how the staff changes. One thing they generally do is plan for and fight wildfires really well…not perfectly, but better than anyone else. They are the Gold Standard that everyone else strives to be more like.

    So..anyway, they leave very little to chance so there are always contracts in place in advance to provide everything based on what they have needed in the past, available at a moments notice so they can start fighting fire right away and not have to worry about the details of “where are we going to get sack lunches” for our fire crews after a fire gets going.

    The biggest part of that job was to find and negotiate contracts with heavy equipment operators/owners in the City of Santa Fe, which is what got me thinking about Santos’ fairy tale. I don’t know anything about the bull dozer Morin on the Yarnell Hill Fire, but I do know a lot about the average heavy equipment operator..

    They can make wildland firefighters look like bitches (non-gender specific). Based on my experience, they are always hard, tough, no-nonsense, rough and tumble men who put the “blue” in blue collar and the “red” in red neck.

    And the very thought of a wildland firefighter, even one who is a hotshot squad boss, who just happens to have gotten his red card punched to be certified as a dozer line supervisor just because he already had everything else he could reasonably get and needed to go to more training kicking a bull dozer owner/operator off his machine and taking over, jumping up on it and blading a fire line is just absolutely fucking HILARIOUS.

    Let’s see now, how many things can I find wrong and laughable about that fantasy scenario?

    1. Operating a piece of heavy equipment like that is highly technical and although there are all kinds of wildland firefighters out there who have all kinds of skills because they do other things when they are laid off or before they became wildland firefighters…yes. I used to have a heavy equipment operator on my crew at Happy Jack, but it is rare and for us he operated a ladies shovel. Especially to have the high level of expertise to operate a highly technical piece of equipment under challenging circumstances. Say…like in front of a raging wildfire of Biblical proportions.

    2. You would have to first kill any heavy equipment operator I have ever met before you could get him off his machine and take over running it.

    3. There are pieces of heavy equipment that are owned by various governments agencies and those are sometimes sent to fires, but since they are few and far between and are normally committed to far away projects that have hard target dates for that agency, they normally use contracted equipment. I don’t know if Morin was a government employee and his dozer was government equipment or not, but the same rules would apply to getting him off his machine even if he was a government employee, you would have to kill him first because he was “that” kind of man whether he was private party or a government employee.

    4. Let’s see…what can I compare having a red card dozer stike team leader certification to being an operator with? Knowing where and how to park jet planes at the airport by waving your arms or flags with knowing how to fly the fucking plane?

    5. Liability…being red carded qualified to direct the path of a dozer doesn’t even begin to address all of the civil liability of operating one. A private contractor’s insurance company probably have a clause on that one.

    6. Guess what? You can’t even ride an ATV for the government unless you have special training and that skill and corresponding certification has been added to your government drivers license.

    I could go on and on but why, you probably get my drift…that part of her book is HILARIOUS! Which makes the whole thing a comedy in my “book.”

    Which brings up another point for all of those who want to know the rest of the story. I actually would like to know a lot more about Morin if anybody out there does. He very well might be someone who knows if there was indeed a Hail Mary plan and what it was because they may have told him about it. Especially if it was to push in a last minute fire line and then have the crew backfire from it just as soon as they got there by beating the speeding train across the tracks (so to speak).

    Who is Morrin and is he a private contractor or a government employee? Where does he live and work and how can I contact him? And does he need the Source of Information money I don’t have to pay for information? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Reply

    • Gary I totally agree with you.

      That also hit me as crazy no Tractor operator would give up their tractor to any one.

      I was thinking where did that come from?

      Reply

        • Aw C’mon Gary, it happens all of the time, doesn’t it ?? 🙂

          Pilot of a helicopter cant hit diddly with his buckets so, you pull him out of the machine and go bucketing yourself, air tanker pilot keeps hitting too far left, you jump in the SEAT and get it done yourself 🙂

          The furthest stretch I can see of this type of activity ever occurring would be if you came across a faller who was experiencing some sort of falling/bucking difficulty that they were not comfortable or competent to deal with, that you use the fallers saw to do it for him… Possible, but highly unlikely..

          Reply

          • Actually, I heard of a story (directly from someone I know who was there and a witness – so 1-part removed ‘hearsay’) that a DIV(t) in Oregon last summer, actually demanded the saw of a contract faller because he didn’t like how a snag was being handled. He got the saw from the faller and proceeded to attempt to cut the tree himself. According to my source, the tree was felled the wrong direction putting several personnel in harms warm – a near miss. Unbelievable!

            There are all kinds of yahoos out there!

            Woodsman

            Reply

      • Reply to Bob Powers post on May 9, 2016 at 12:01 pm

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        >> That also hit me as crazy no Tractor operator would give
        >> up their tractor to any one.
        >>
        >> I was thinking where did that come from?

        From page 119 of Fernanda Santos’ new book ( which she is actually charging MONEY for! Is this a great country, or what? )…

        ————————————————————————-
        A Blue Ridge squad leader sat behind the wheel of the bulldozer Cordes had requisitioned, replacing a driver who didn’t have a supervisor directing his work, wasn’t clear about his assignment, and didn’t have a working radio of his own. The squad leader powered the dozer uphill, toward the old grader.
        —————————————————————————–

        The Santos book ends on page 213… and the next 52 pages are just ‘crap’ like acknowledgements, a botched timeline for the fire, and some ‘source notes’.

        Again… Buyer Beware… you are actually paying for a very, very SHORT book. The rest of it is just crap.

        But in her ‘source notes’… Santos actually said what she was basing her claim on that Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball became “Cory Ball the Bulldozer Driver” that Sunday…

        On her page 242, in the NOTES section…
        ——————————————————-
        A Blue Ridge squad leader ( sat behind the wheel of the bulldozer ):
        In their interviews with investigators, Blue Ridge crew members said the
        bulldozer operator didn’t know his assignment, didn’t have a supervisor,
        and didn’t have a working radio.
        ——————————————————-

        That’s it.

        Santos then just ‘made up the rest’ and ( more importantly ) then obviously didn’t lift one finger to get anyone to actually FACT CHECK this book of hers.

        Reply

        • Originally when we went hiking to even recent email the author we hiked stated we both would get a signed copy Santos stated and even back then she knew how many copies she was getting and now she is giving Sonny one Thursday only not two copies. I honestly am done with all the authors and reporters who say something but don’t follow through…never once did I cancel a hike or bail out in the middle and I always gave them what they wanted even when ill but to see one after another say one thing and do another I personally don’t care about any of the books especially after hearing wwtktt reads parts of recent book and we were told it was about the special bond and togetherness of the men and yet I have to admit I was sticking up for recent book but confused how the book is named the fire line when I was at the fire line before the 19…and I was much a part of the fire line moment than just some hiker passed by and took a snapshot…I took thousands and some stupid fuck stole from me not just that days worth of pics but that SD card had my life on it…I had a lot of pics that showed terrain and vehicles and fire…I always said I love God but not crazy about loving His people because I always see a kick in the gut and if Santos book is not about the men and its about the fire than Sonny can have the book because I was more there watching the action and gave the world a recount more than the GD survivor of the gmhs…Dale1 can screw off..Donut does not deserve Mr. At all…Except that it is right on Mr. do not…I am pissed off at Santos. She made a promise/commitment on two signed books and we were always there at any moment and if we are not worth the two than Sonny can have the book. I FOLLOW through if I say something even if it goes out of my own pocket. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$….I also have no intention of reading the book…Sonny had the bond with Santos…me I felt another way when she says one thing yet does another…that don’t fly with me. So wwtktt said recently I like and met Santos..now u have the facts of how I feel

          Reply

    • Yeah…finally a topic I like..Paul Morin has been my focus..ask wwtktt as I shared my foias and wwtktt posted them here on Morin. He and his wife work for the city/county but YEAH finally a topic I seek answers on is being brought up…was this in Santos book? Did she have Paul Morin’s story? If anyone does please redirect them to George Hunter who’s family had a bulldozer knock down a wall of their home…we want to ask Morin questions yet Knapp has not even subpoenaed Morin when I gave out all that..about time someone sees how I see it. Keep the topic flowing and if I had monies I would of already asked Morin for a paid interview… To me he is very important if you are an investigator because he was seen in Glen Ilah…I have that by not just one but five people who I interviewed.

      Reply

    • Gary,

      I think I remember reading that the dozer guy worked for Yavapai County, but I thought he was mentioned in IM under a different name. Anyway, there is NO way a county employee would allow someone else to operate his machine, as you so correctly point out.

      Reply

      • Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE)
        post on May 9, 2016 at 12:43 pm

        >> TTWARE said…
        >>
        >> I think I remember reading that the dozer guy worked for Yavapai County.

        Yes. Both Paul Morin and the man who ‘relieved’ him after a 14 hour shift on that dozer on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ( Donald Rezzzonico ) were employees for Yavapai County Public Works Department.

        >> TTWARE also said…
        >>
        >> but I thought he was mentioned in IM under a different name.

        At first… YES.

        Until Joy Collura obtained the actual bulldozer ‘Shift Report’ documents from Arizona Forestry via an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request… there WAS confusion about WHO had actually arrived with that dozer on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013.

        The Resource Order from the night before ( Saturday night ) stated that it was going to be someone named ‘Justin Hernandez’… and there actually WAS ( still IS ) a ‘note’ in Cory Ball’s Unit Log about him trying to get “back out to where Justin was” in the timeframe when Ball was borrowing that ATV to “scout emergency dozer line to protect Glen Ilah” ( as instructed to do by SPGS Gary Cordes )…

        …but regardless of these references to a ‘Justin’ in association with that dozer… the Arizona Forestry records say it showed up Sunday morning with an operator named Paul Morin… who had no red-card and no radio.

        So although we still don’t know for sure ( no one has EVER interviewed this critical witness named Paul Morin )… it still sounds like this ‘Justin Hernandez’ guy might have been the one who usually goes out with the dozer on Arizona Forestry contract calls ( and probably did have a red-card and his own radio )… but something happened between when the order was filled by Yavapai County on Saturday night and when it arrived Sunday morning. Maybe ‘Justin Hernandez’ got sick, or something, and rather than not send the dozer at all… Yavapai Public Works Department just tapped this ‘Paul Morin’ guy and sent him with it instead.

        >> TTWARE also said…
        >>
        >> Anyway, there is NO way a county employee would allow
        >> someone else to operate his machine, as you so correctly point out.

        All this really illustrates is what a POOR job New York Times Arizona Correspondent Fernanda Santos fact-checking this book that she is actually charging MONEY for.

        It illustrates a TOTAL misunderstanding of what the positions of HEQB and DOZB are all about… and not even lifting a finger to find out.

        Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing. All of that information and lots and lots of other information all goes into the Forest Fire Plan that I updated every year just as the fire management people updated the District Fire Plans every year in big binders. And then whenever there was a fire, anybody could look in those binders and see what to do next. Even if they did not work in fire and they were from the other side of the country.

      The USFS that I knew really did not how to fight fire, which I am pretty sure I have said before, which is just one more thing that makes the Yarenll Hill Fire hard to come to terms with, there were enough USFS alumni in that bastardized penny pinching ad hoc short team cobbled together to save money on fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire in spite of all of the Battalion Chiefs, there really is no excuse for what happened there and how it went so badly, even if you look beyond the fatalities.

      Reply

      • Gary all those book/Binder plans are now all in the computer.

        They do not even have maps on the wall they just pull the map and google Earth up on the computer. Township Range and Section. We would be lost for awhile in how they dispatch today. We truly were in the Dark Ages.

        Reply

        • Bummer. I actually liked the little magnets with different icons on them that meant different things I could move around on my big magnetic map on the wall with the retractable strings coming out of the lookout towers so I could plot coordinates. I felt like a little general moving my forces around on a battle map.

          There was the little magnet that had a drawing of a slurry bomber with slurry coming out of its belly, a little smokejumper with his/her chute open, little engines with numbers on them, little airplanes for lead planes, little helicopters to represent those who liked to lay around and lick their nuts, a little man’s head to represent the crew boss or a bunch of little men to represent a crew, different color of smokes to represent what the smoke was doing at the time, different colors of fire for what the fire was doing, laying down, or kicking ass or something else, lightning bolts and storm clouds to show where there was dry lightning or rain, etc….really fun stuff!

          Reply

      • Exactly Gary and definitely in the case of Yarnell. The men in charge here were a killer wild land fire fighting organization–they killed 19. Definitely the local Yarnell department of fire did not want to have anything to do with stopping that fire until they got assigned to Peeples Valley where their pay could be upgraded because they were out of their district. It makes me think they did not give a shit that the lightening strike needed to be put out since that would have been a stretch to have to run ATV’s up there or walk up that two track with a few men to contain it on Friday. They had to be the ones that put up the large signs on each end of Yarnell designating extreme fire danger–and they had to have known that dense area adjoining Yarnell and Glen Isla had been laid aside as highly restricted due to extreme fire danger. They surely rubbed shoulders with the men who had declared that 320 acres thusly. Yet those men took no action to contain that lighten fire in the boulders just above the dense manzanita right along the now famous Weaver two track road to Heaven (or Hell).

        Now what do we attribute their inadequacy to. Was it ignorance, laziness, or could it have been underlying motives that include knowing if the fire advanced pay grades would go up and money was to be made. Do they get enough without allowing a fire to advance so it burns half their town and kills 19? No they can not forsee the future but whoever was in charge that day of Friday, June 28, 2013 at the Yarnell Fire Department is among those that likely has already advanced to a better position and patted on the back for good fire fighting procedures. Whoever aptly used the moron statement that this was organized chaos missed the truth completely–I was generated chaos and there was no organization to it. Or if that is called organization then how can we account for 19 deaths, half a town burned to the ground, and millions of tax payer money squandered all because three fire departments and majorly the Yarnell department failed to act in a prudent manner while all the facts of danger were staring them in the face. How are these fire departments trained when they lack the knowledge, stamina, and vision to take care of extreme emergencies? Something demands revision in the way Wild Land Fires are fought.

        Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on May 9, 2016 at 9:14 am

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> I could go on and on but why, you probably get my drift…that part of
      >> her book is HILARIOUS! Which makes the whole thing a comedy in my “book.”

      There’s MUCH more ‘hilarity’ involved here than what I posted so far, even with regards to Santos’ one piece of ‘Cory Ball the Bulldozer Driver’ bullshit.

      Did you know that, according to Santos, Granite Mountain was working the SOUTHEAST corner of the fire? Hooray… we can all go away now! There were no ‘deaths’ at all. Granite Mountain was just working right alongside Blue Ridge that Sunday and when everything started to go to shit they ALL just got into their Crew Carriers and simply drove over to the Ranch House Restaurant.

      Mystery solved!

      ( I digress… back to “Cory Ball the Bulldozer Driver” )…

      Here’s a repeat of what I posted below… but this time with even MORE information…

      On May 8, 2016 at 12:14 am, WTKTT said…

      Here’s another ‘Santos’ gem ( and as hard as it might be to believe… these really are just the ‘highlights’. It gets even WORSE… and she is actually charging people MONEY for this shit ).

      Santos says that when Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball relieved Gary Cordes as the HEQB/DOZB assigned to Paul Morin and his bulldozer on Sunday morning…

      …that Cory Ball actually just kicked Morin out of the dozer and was then the one who was actually ‘driving it’ as it cleared ground by the old-grader.

      I guess she never even bothered to look at the FOUR or FIVE actually photographs taken by Cory Ball himself ( and others ) that show Ball just standing some distance AWAY from the dozer while it was ‘working’ that day… including there near the ‘old-grader’.

      In the same paragraph… she also totally ‘blows off’ mentioning that it wasn’t JUST Brian Frisby who went up for the first face-to-face with Marsh and Steed. BR Captain Trueheart Brown was with Frisby for that face-to-face.

      From page 119 of Santos’ new book…

      ————————————————————————-
      A Blue Ridge squad leader sat behind the wheel of the bulldozer Cordes had requisitioned, replacing a driver who didn’t have a supervisor directing his work, wasn’t clear about his assignment, and didn’t have a working radio of his own. The squad leader powered the dozer uphill, toward the old grader. Frisby drove to the anchor point. He discussed strategy face-to-face with Marsh and Steed. Everybody on the team was annoyed— who was calling the shots? Noon approached and Marsh had no more crews assigned to his division than he’d had when his day had started and no new directions about the mission he’d been asked to fulfill with the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Still, Marsh seemed to have made no particular effort to update his commanders on the conditions his men faced in the wild.
      —————————————————————————–

      The Santos book clocks in at 265 pages total… but the actual ‘text’ of the Santos book ENDS on page 213.

      ( Again… Buyer beware. You are actually PAYING for a very, very SHORT book… and the rest is just ‘crap’ tacked onto the end of it ).

      The remaining 52 ( count ’em… FIFTY TWO ) pages are nothing but ‘Acknowledgements’, a botched-up ‘Timeline’ for the fire, and then pages and pages of what amount to ‘footnotes quoting things from the narrative and her attempt to list her ‘sources’ for things she put into the narrative itself.

      The ‘source notes’ all begin with the ‘italicized’ line of text from the narrative that she is referencing… followed by her attempt to explain what her ‘source’ was for that part of the text.

      Those ‘source notes’ are organized by ‘Chapter’… and she actually does have a ‘source note’ which covers this statement she put in the narrative about a ‘Blue Ridge squad leader’ taking over the dozer ( literally ).

      On her page 242, in the NOTES section…
      ——————————————————-
      A Blue Ridge squad leader ( sat behind the wheel of the bulldozer ):
      In their interviews with investigators, Blue Ridge crew members said the
      bulldozer operator didn’t know his assignment, didn’t have a supervisor,
      and didn’t have a working radio.
      ——————————————————-

      That’s it.

      That’s all Santos had to say about the ‘source’ for her quote in the book about how a Blue Ridge ‘Squad Leader’ ( who we all know was Cory Ball even though she refuses to print his name ) ( quote) “sat behind the wheel of the bulldozer Cordes had requisitioned, replacing a driver who didn’t have a supervisor directing his work, wasn’t clear about his assignment, and didn’t have a working radio of his own” ( endquote ).

      Nowhere in even any of the Blue Ridge interview notes or Unit Logs that Santos is referring to as her ‘source’ is there anything to justify her conclusion that just because Cory Ball was ‘assigned’ to monitor the dozer… that he actually ‘took it over’ and was actually ‘driving’ it.

      Santos made that up out of whole cloth.

      It indicates that she either had no understanding whatsoever of what an HEQB or DOZB position entails… and she was just ‘assuming’ things… or its an indication that she really did NOT have anyone ‘fact-checking’ this book for her…

      …or BOTH.

      And you will find that the ‘bullshit parade’ is not only confined to the actual TEXT of her book. It actually ‘extends’ into her own SOURCE NOTES section.

      Some of her ‘source notes’ for some of the bullshit in the book are, themselves, bullshit.

      Here is just ONE example of that… ( more bullshit even in her SOURCE NOTES section at the back of the book )

      * Page 247

      ———————————————
      “I’m trying to work my way off the top”
      This radio communication between Marsh and Abel was unearthed by the author John N. Maclean and Holly Neill, a former wildland firefighter who has been investigating the Yarnell Hill Fire with Maclean. It was one of several background conversations they found in the audio and video recordings used by investigators who prepared two separate reports on the fire and released to the media. Maclean and Neill wrote about their findings on the Web site Wildfire Today, http:// wildfiretoday.com/ 2014/ 01/ 19/ discoveries-in-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings-provide-new-information-about-location-of-eric-marsh/.
      ———————————————

      Total horseshit.

      John Maclean and Holly Neill had NOTHING to do with ‘discovering’ the 3:50 PM Robert Caldwell video which captured that “Working my way off the top” quote ( from Marsh ) and the subsequent “Keep me informed, Hunker and be safe, we’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP” response from OPS1 Todd Abel in the same Caldwell 3:50 PM video.

      The SAIT ( Jim Karels, Mike Dudley and crew ) were FULLY AWARE of the contents of this ‘Robert Caldwell’ video LONG before John MaClean and Holly Neill were able to obtain copies of anything the SAIT had in their possession.

      It ( the Caldwell video ) was even acknowledged and referenced in the SAIR itself, when it was released on September 28, 2013… and they even got the TIME right for the Robert Caldwell video itself ( 3:50 PM )…

      From PDF page 28 of the original SAIR…
      ———————————————
      OPS1 is listening on the radio to make sure everyone received the most recent weather announcement. At about 1550, he radios DIVS A directly to ask if he got the weather update and if he is “in a good spot.” DIVS A affirms that he received the update, and he tells OPS1 the winds are starting to get “squirrely” up on the ridge. He says he is working his way off the top and OPS1 closes by advising DIVS A to hunker and be safe.
      ———————————————

      So beware the ‘Santos’ book.
      Even when she ‘quotes sources’… she is making shit up.
      It’s just sloppy, sloppy work on her part.

      BOTH of the book released last week really do need inside-the-cover title pages that say something like…

      ———————————————–
      Thank you for spending your hard earned money to buy my book.
      Half of what is being represented as FACTUAL in the pages that
      follow is actually bullshit… but I will let you, the reader, figure out which half.
      Happy reading!
      ———————————————–

      Reply

      • Gary- please I ask…write your f’ing book— get these facts out there! This has become a horseshit of people saying one thing and doing another- sick of it!

        Reply

      • Nothing will ever top the image in my mind of a hotshot squad boss who just had to pick up some more training and picked that chore out of a book on training just in case he ever ended up on a fire without a dozer team leader…the idea that that person could relieve a heavy equipment operator of his place behind the controls of a bulldozer and just take off blading fire line is an image I just can’t get out of my head.

        Forget the highly acclaimed and much anticipated tome, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters” I have ADD so I am going to start writing a children’s story called “Ball the Bull Dozer Operator” and I am going to dedicate it to Ms. Santos.

        It is going to be all about this firefighter who goes around kicking heavy equipment operators off their machines and taking over operating them whenever he thinks they aren’t getting the job done right.

        Oh..and one more thing…I had a little magnets with bulldozers on them also. If I still had one, I would write BALL on it just to commemorate this story…the cost of Santos book, I don’t know, the value of the image she has created…fucking priceless.

        Reply

  138. I was quite interested in the information Stated in RTS reply down below and brought it up here.
    The Staff ride seems to be following the same pattern as it did with the Families.
    The Blue Ridge Hot Shots were on a resent ride or show me trip and were considered a distraction.
    What did they do attempt to correct the information being said or not said on the Show me trip.
    This is interesting we need more info on this.
    The BR crew were right there that day and Brown and Frisby were on the Mountain and at the deployment site. They may have information that has not seen the light of day. What is being concealed and why???????

    Reply

  139. **
    ** THE FERNANDA SANTOS BOOK IS GARBAGE

    I’m spending the weekend ‘fact checking’ both the new Fernanda Santos book about Yarnell as well as Brendan McDonough’s new book.

    As far as that goes… the news is ‘not good’.

    For BOTH of these ‘new’ books… it’s even WORSE than I thought it might be.

    But just in case this might save people some money… I thought I’d give a heads up about at least the ‘Santos’ book.

    Fernanda Santos’ “claim to fame” here is that she is the only one who was granted permission and was able to obtain interviews from basically at least one close family member for ALL of the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    Fine, whatever. I’m sure all the parts about what the men liked to eat for supper is probably accurate. No way to ‘fact check’ that, really… but as far as her handling of even the KNOWN FACTS about what happened on June 30, 2013… her book is an absolute DISASTER and just purely ‘amateur hour’.

    She obviously had absolutely NO ONE to help her ‘fact check’ her own book, and she went ahead and published it, anyway.

    I’m still working on a comprehensive ‘report’ on how BOTH of these books go ‘off the rails’ when it comes to even the already KNOWN ‘facts’… but here is just one example of how far off the rails Fernanda Santos’ book goes.

    She TOTALLY BOTCHES one of the most important things that anyone writing about Yarnell SHOULD be able to ‘get right’… because there are actual real-time video recordings to refer to.

    I’m talking about the actual ‘Deployment Radio Traffic’ captured in Aaron Hulburd’s video.

    It’s absolutely ASTOUNDING how WRONG this (supposedly) professional writer got it ( unless some of these fucks ups are intentional… like the part about Burfiend responding to the radio callouts right away ).

    Here are just a FEW of the things she actually gets totally WRONG, in just her reporting about a short video sequence which ANYONE can listen to themselves…

    1. Santos actually tries to say that the SECOND emergency callout during the MAYDAY sequence was NOT another attempt coming from the box canyon ( most likely Robert Caldwell this time ) on their part to get John Burfiend’s attention… but that it was really Air Attack John Burfiend RESPONDING to Jesse Steed’s initial “We are in front of the flaming front!” emergency radio call a few seconds earlier. That is SO WRONG that it is almost as if Santos is trying to ‘make shit up’ in an effort to ‘rewrite history’ and prove that John Burfiend really was NOT ignoring those poor men for upwards of 2 and 1/2 minutes… until he was ORDERED by OPS1 Todd Abel to STOP ignoring them and answer their radio calls.

    2. She mistakenly describes the transmissions from ‘Operations’ during the MAYDY sequence as coming from OPS2 Paul Musser. She is wrong. It was OPS1 Todd Abel.

    3. She mistakenly attributes some of the radio calls where Steed and Caldwell were just trying to contact ‘Air Attack’ as coming from Eric Marsh.

    4. She mistakenly describes their decision to lay down on the floor of the canyon as their ONLY option.

    5. She mistakenly tries to claim that the DC10 VLAT was ‘able to fly in that weather’ and that it could have ‘found the Hotshots’ if they had a better idea where they were.

    From page 145 of Santo’s new book.

    This is where she writes about the the MAYDAY radio calls, captured in Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s video with filename M2U00265.

    SIDENOTE: At NO TIME in this book does Santos ever identify the “Three Prescoteers”, Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell as ever having been there on June 30, 2013. She attempts to describe the MAYDAY radio traffic ( and absolutely butchers it ), but she doesn’t lift a finger to say where it was all coming from.

    This is the very end of her chapter entitled “No Answer”… which are the last TWO WORDS of the Chapter itself…

    ———————————————–
    Suddenly, the monster loomed from behind a hill to the northeast.

    On the radio, a desperate cry—“ Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.”

    Fourteen seconds go by, and no response. Musser chimed in, “Bravo 33, Operations. You copying that on air-to-ground?”

    Five seconds later, Bravo 33 responded, “Granite Mountain, Air Attack. How do you read?”

    In Yarnell, flames towered over trees and knolls. Winds tossed embers far ahead of the fire. The air turned the color of caramel.

    Musser, on the radio: “Granite Mountain, Operations on air-to-ground.”

    Marsh: “Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7. How do you copy me?”

    Chain saws buzzed. Sawyers and swampers worked, probably harder than they’d ever worked before: Carter and Ashcraft; Thurston and Norris; Zuppiger and Parker; DeFord and Rose. The fire rushed at them. They gave up on reaching the ranch.

    They couldn’t run faster than the flames. They’d clear the ground around them. The place was thick with brush. They had to get rid of it. They’d clear the area as best as they could, then dive inside their shelters. It was the only option left.

    Calling on Musser, the Air Attack crew, Bravo 33, said, “Operations, Bravo 33. I was copying that traffic on air-to-ground.”

    A moment later, Bravo 33 continued, “Okay, I was copying a little bit of that, uh, conversation, uh, on air-to-ground.

    We’re … we’ll do the best we can. We got the Type 1 helicopters ordered back in. We’ll see what we can do.”

    One of the Hotshots screamed on the radio, “Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7!”

    Bravo 33: “Okay, uh, unit that’s hollering on the radio, I need you to quit.”

    Musser, to Bravo 33: “Okay, Granite Mountain 7 … sounds like they got some trouble, uh, go ahead and get that, he’s trying to get you on the radio. Let’s go ahead and see what we’ve got going on.”

    Bravo 33: “Okay, copy that. I’ll get with Granite Mountain 7, then.”

    Marsh: “Bravo 33, Division Alpha with Granite Mountain.”

    “Okay, Division Alpha. Bravo 33.”

    “Yeah, I’m here with Granite Mountain Hotshots. Our escape route has been cut off. We are preparing a deployment site and we are burning out around ourselves in the brush and I’ll give you a call when we are under the sh— the shelters.”

    “Okay, copy that. So you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”

    “Affirm!” A fierce gust of wind blew into Marsh’s microphone. The escape route he had mentioned wasn’t quite an escape route— it was lined with brush.

    “Okay. We’re going to bring you the vee-lat, okay?” Vee-lat is the pronounced acronym for “very large air tanker” — VLAT — the DC-10. It carried twelve thousand gallons of retardant in its belly, and it could fly in that weather. It could find the Hotshots.

    Seventeen seconds of silence, then Bravo 33 jumped on the radio again: “Division Alpha, Bravo 33 on air-to-ground.”

    A radio squelched, its transmission unclear.

    “Is that Division Alpha? Bravo 33 on air-to-ground.”

    Twenty seconds of silence.

    “Division Alpha. Bravo 33 on air-to-ground.”

    Seven seconds.

    “Okay, uh, we’re working our way around there. We’ve got, uh, several aircraft coming to you. We’ll see if we can take care of business for you.”

    Fourteen seconds.

    “Division Alpha. Bravo 33. I need you to pay attention and tell me when you hear the aircraft, okay? ’Cause it’s gonna be a little tough for us to see you.”

    The radio squawked.

    “Division Alpha, Bravo 33. Do you hear a helicopter?”

    Two minutes and fifty-five seconds.

    “Granite Mountain 7, Bravo 33 on air-to-ground.”

    No answer.

    ——————————————————-
    END OF CHAPTER entitled “No Answer”

    Astoundingly BAD. She should be ashamed of herself.

    And believe it or not… there are other places in her book where she gets certain KNOWN events even MORE WRONG than she got the above.

    If you want to know what the dead Hotshots liked to eat for supper and what music they liked to listen to… then this Santos thing is your cup of tea.

    If you care one iota about what REALLY happened in Yarnell… then do NOT BUY THIS BOOK. As far as THAT goes… it is absolute GARBAGE.

    Reply

    • Here’s another ‘Santos’ gem ( and as hard as it might be to believe… these really are just the ‘highlights’. It gets even WORSE… and she is actually charging people MONEY for this shit ).

      Santos says that when Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball relieved Gary Cordes as the HEQB/DOZB assigned to Paul Morin and his bulldozer on Sunday morning…

      …that Cory Ball actually just kicked Morin out of the dozer and was then the one who was actually ‘driving it’ as it cleared ground by the old-grader.

      I guess she never even bothered to look at the FOUR or FIVE actualy photographs taken by Cory Ball himself ( and others ) that show Ball just standing some distance AWAY from the dozer while it was ‘working’ that day… including there near the ‘old-grader’.

      In the same paragraph… she also totally ‘blows off’ mentioning that it wasn’t JUST Brian Frisby who went up for the first face-to-face with Marsh and Steed. BR Captain Trueheart Brown was with Frisby for that face-to-face.

      From page 119 of Santos’ new book…

      ————————————————————————-
      A Blue Ridge squad leader sat behind the wheel of the bulldozer Cordes had requisitioned, replacing a driver who didn’t have a supervisor directing his work, wasn’t clear about his assignment, and didn’t have a working radio of his own. The squad leader powered the dozer uphill, toward the old grader. Frisby drove to the anchor point. He discussed strategy face-to-face with Marsh and Steed. Everybody on the team was annoyed— who was calling the shots? Noon approached and Marsh had no more crews assigned to his division than he’d had when his day had started and no new directions about the mission he’d been asked to fulfill with the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Still, Marsh seemed to have made no particular effort to update his commanders on the conditions his men faced in the wild.
      —————————————————————————–

      Absoute. Amateur. Hour.

      Reply

      • Absoute?

        Brain fart.

        Should have been…

        ABSOLUTE. AMATEUR. HOUR.

        Here’s another ‘highlight’.

        Watch how Santos’ totally fucks up the ‘meeting’ between Eric Marsh and hikers Joy Collura and Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan.

        She is trying to say that Joy and Sonny met Marsh and Steed and the crew all at the same time… with Marsh just ‘slightly ahead’ of Steed and the crew.

        * Page 114

        Santos now first mentions the ‘meet up’ on Sunday morning with hikers Joy Collura and Tex (Sonny) Gilligan… and she completely screws this up, as well.

        Santos is basically screwing up the entire ‘hike out’ sequence in her book and she is sticking with the already-proven-wrong story that all of Granite Mountain arrived in the Sesame area at the same time that morning and that they all started hiking out to the west at the same time as Eric Marsh did.

        ———————————————–
        At 9:18 a.m., a hiker snapped a picture of the Granite Mountain Hotshots passing by her and a friend. The men trudged along a path of stone and cured grass. They were at fifty-four hundred feet; from up there, Yarnell looked like a toy village. Steed, in his red helmet, led the line. He looked stern and purposeful. Marsh was up ahead as a scout, tying pink plastic ribbons to bushes every hundred feet or so, marking the way as he climbed to fifty-six hundred feet.
        ———————————————–

        So since Santos is trying to stick with the old story that they all hiked out together… she had to make it look like Joy and Sonny met up with ALL of them at the same time… and not roughly an HOUR apart.

        Also… absolutely NO mention of what Sonny Gilligan has said many times… including during interviews that appeared in the media… that when they ( he and Joy ) finally DID meet up with the GM crew, long after first meeting Marsh ‘scouting ahead’, that the GM crew looked ‘totally spent’.

        Reply

        • Former Yarnell Fire Department Chief Peter Andersen lives on Lakewood Drive, in Glen Ilah… just a few hundred yards west of the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’.

          He was sitting on his own front porch drinking coffee that Sunday morning… and he is ABSOLUTELY SURE that the Granite Mountain CREW buggies didn’t pass his house until 8:03 AM that Sunday morning.

          See…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/

          From that article…
          ———————————————————————-
          Former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen sat under a tree in his front yard having his morning coffee on Sunday, June 30, when the Granite Mountain Hotshots drove past his Glen Ilah home.

          “At 8:03, [their] two buggies went by,” Andersen says. “Right after they went by, the leaves started to blow. I shook my head. [The state] didn’t listen to me.”

          Andersen, who resigned as Yarnell chief in 2011 after 12 years of service, was aggravated because he had warned an Arizona Forestry Division fire manager the night before that it was crucial to attack the steadily expanding fire in the hills above Yarnell at dawn, before prevailing southwesterly winds picked up about 8 in the morning.
          ———————————————————————-

          8:03 AM was just a few minutes BEFORE hikers Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan and Joy Collura would actually be meeting up with Eric Marsh WAY out near the western ridge of the Weavers… where Eric Marsh would ask THEM what the best way to get to the ‘fire’ was.

          There was basically an HOUR of SEPARATION between Eric Marsh and Steed and the crew… who, after passing Chief Andersen’s house on Lakewood at 8:03 AM… could not have made it the rest of the way out to the Sesame Clearing, got all geared up, and started their own ‘hike’ out to the ridge that day any sooner than about 8:20 to 8:30 AM.

          Reply

          • Well…as always, thank you for saving me some money and a lot of very frustrating work.

            Reply

        • Santos was doing her book on the bond if the men…gmhs..not kc..not the fire..not the hikers and Mr. McDonough already stated his book was more about him than yhf so it’s their take on it… Why name it garbage .. Why not state the book(s) are not thoroughly fact checked

          Reply

          • Because things that belong in the trash are appropriately named garbage Joy. And if Santos book gets it wrong about something so important as Burfiend answering the crew right away it should not be called garbage, it should be called….? GARBAGE….that’s it GARBAGE!

            Reply

            • yeah but what if WHO she fact checked with was wrong person in it…why make the whole book garbage based on that is all I am asking

              Reply

              • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
                May 8, 2016 at 8:58 am

                >> Joy A. Collura said…
                >>
                >> yeah but what if WHO she fact checked with
                >> was wrong person in it…why make the whole
                >> book garbage based on that is all I am asking

                Because she is the ‘sole author’.

                It was HER responsibility to make sure she was NOT publishing ‘garbage’. She failed that responsibility.

                She is charging MONEY for this book. All of it.

                I don’t see any disclaimer in it saying…

                “I had fun talking to the families and I think I got the stuff about what the guys were like right… but as for the facts about how they died… well… some friend of mine was doing that for me.”

                Reply

          • This book Fernanda did was never about the fire and I don’t know Mr. McDonough but seen him many times may it be with Mando or the bank b it his book he said was not about the fire…but john Maclean’s should be but why tarnish two peoples hard work and efforts when both used people who were on fire and ok musser Abel obvious error but why discredit the hard work as garbage vs just saying the facts are and this don’t match. Our account was never her focal so an insert is in there but Fernanda Santos was never needing any claim for fame…if you heard her life stoty she is already there without any book. I have not read her book yet but let’s get many others feedback on it but thank you wwtktt for sharing the errors seen…yet I find Santos to be genuine and has heart and I look forward to reading it. I liked Mr.McDonough s book too. It gave me my next foias because I am investigating the decisions why they left the black to where they did…happy mother’s day

            Reply

            • My anticipation has always been with John Maclean.

              He has proven in the past to have solid research and actually covered the events like a investigator. While he mentions the Families he also sticks to the Fire and the facts.

              He may have uncovered information we do not have so will wait to see.
              He has in the past called it like it is and backed it with facts.

              He takes his time and he will put it in print when he is ready. He is thorough with his research and won’t quote false information.
              So I wait for his book alone to put down the record. In the past he has never been persuaded by investigators, Family or Overhead.

              He has always been the Fire Fighters Voice. I respect him for that.

              Reply

              • Bob Powers said:”He takes his time and he will put it in print when he is ready. He is thorough with his research and won’t quote false information.”

                I know three firefighters and smokejumpers who disagree …John wrote their account WRONG about an area… and the way he wrote it he took the word of one versus first hand; the horse’s mouth. When they tried to correct him he never made a retraction. So he is not always right on either Bob.

                Reply

                • also to this day…John’s friends and book partner personally apologized to me how John glazed the hikers at 2015 smokejumper convention inappropriately so apparently he has not yet spoke to us on the matter- so who knows how he will portray us but in public he already has done the hikers wrong-

                  Reply

                  • so in my question to wwtktt- will you report the same picking apart with John’s book like Santos and Mr. McDonough? Will there be equality there? Will you treat him the same if he is wrong?

                    Reply

                    • Joy Not sure of what you talk of and who the 3 are? He can also be hard on the Overhead.

                      His book is not out yet so what he said to any one prior is still open to discussion.

                      He has 3 books out now and they are mostly Factual. I say mostly because they can be a little off when it comes to personnel information. Which some have and will still disagree about. There has been little to fault him with when it comes to the complete run down on the Fire.

                      I am only hoping that continues on the Yarnell Hill Fire. His father started the Mann Gulch fire book which he finished. You say Ted has some different Information than was in that Book.
                      Ted could be right but he will have to prove it to me. Mann Gulch has been studied from hell to Breakfast and this is the first I have ever herd of a different story in 50 years.

                    • when I mentioned the 3- it was not YHF but prior book already out- those firefighters-

                    • Joy I can say that some times people see or remember things that are not correct. My Step Dad did the same when interviewed By Maclean on the Rattle Snake Fire in 2003 50 years later.
                      He had memories that actually never Happened.

                      Some times those at the catastrophe who are close to the People who died put a different twist on things. It helps them through the shock and becomes their story.

                      Research can come up with different memories and some will not match.

                      My only confection here is that I believe Maclean dose a through job. He tries very hard to stick to the facts. Some do not like that straight forward approach. He is not always right and I am not here to support a book I have not yet seen. He may get some push back from some of the Overhead on Yarnell.
                      We will wait and see.

            • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 8, 2016 at 8:15 am

              >> Joy A. Collura said…
              >>
              >> This book Fernanda did was never about the fire.

              Coulda fooled me ( as a person looking at it sitting in the ‘new releases’ rack at my local bookstore ).

              The TITLE that Fernanda Santos chose for her BOOK is…

              The Fire Line
              The Story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and One of the Deadliest Days in American Firefighting

              It doesn’t say…

              What MUSIC the Granite Mountain Hotshots liked.

              If one shells out MONEY for this thing… the TITLE implies that it’s about “The Fire Line” and that you are going to get some kind of TRUE account of “One of the Deadliest Days in American Firefighting”.

              Considering how BADLY she has treated even KNOWN FACTS ( either by CHOICE or just because of complete INCOMPETENCE )… then in some circles… that is called outright FRAUD.

              Reply

              • actually good points you made. I can only imagine she had manuscripts read by people who were there on the fire and maybe they liked it as it was and never pointed out wrong areas to her. I just remember her saying the book was about the men and not like John Dougherty and the SAIT; the investigation of…the yhf. This book is not the kind of book for you but it may be for another so what page was the music mention on—I thought it was in her note’s part? Well I guess I did not imagine to wake up to that kind of picking a part…seems like you bought the book but do not recommend it for the fire but what about the rest?

                Reply

                • >> Joy Collura asked…
                  >>
                  >> …but what about the rest?

                  I know you like ( and have met ) this woman, Joy.

                  I have not.

                  You also don’t seem to understand the fundamental issue here.

                  It’s about ‘credibility’.

                  If she is SO WRONG about SO MANY things that anyone with a browser and a mouse can go ‘fact check’ themselves… then I can’t trust ANYTHING she is saying.

                  For all I know… she is also ‘making up’ what you call “the rest of it”.

                  Maybe she should have added a title page that has that famous quote…

                  “Half of what you will be told in this book is bullshit… but I’m not going to tell you WHICH half”.

                  She doesn’t deserve to make a DIME off this thing.

                  It’s just BAD… almost ‘fraud’.

                  Reply

                  • SORRY FOR DELAY- WENT TO CONGRESS- NOW I AM BACK…Kyle Dickman wrote about the hikers not true to form so we let anyone including John MacLean not to use the SAIR for information pertaining to us for it is not the whole enchilada…we also requested everyone to fact check with us and Fernanda Santos did indeed fact check with us so that shows me the whole account of ours did not matter to her story- that’s fine especially when we never planned to be in it in the start- it was not until fact check time came and we talked about our education as she inquired so I am good with her story on us or lack of because she came to us unlike Dickman.

                    Now wwtktt said below which anyone it is CAPS I am replying to you:

                    “I know you like SHE HAS ALWAYS BEEN FORTHCOMING WITH THE HIKERS AND SHOWED US THE RESPECT WE DESERVE VS THESE FOLKS WHO SAY WE ARE QUARTERBACKING BUT SHE ACKNOWLEDGES WE WERE THE EYEWITNESSES TO THE FIRE AND SHOWED US 100% RESPECT THERE. DO I LIKE HERE? I THINK HER STORY IS UNIQUE IN ITSELF AND SHE IS ONE HELL OF A HIKER AND SHE ALWAYS HAS TRIED TO SHOWN PROFESSIONALISM WITH A SLICE OF PERSONAL BUT WE ONLY HAVE COMMUNICATED SINCE MAGGIE SNOOT TIMES WHICH GOES BACK TO NOVEMBER 2013 AND OUR HIKE. SHE HAS NOT BEEN AN AVID PERSON TO THE HIKERS’ LIVES JUST POP INS HERE AND THERE AND SHE WENT ON A FEW HIKES TOO AND SHE IS AN EXCELLENT SPEAKER AND HIKER. I HAVE NOT YET READ HER BOOK BUT IT IS THE SAME THING —“LIKE”—- I LIKE EVERYONE AND I MEAN THAT EVEN THE DARK FORCES WHO WORK AGAINST ME AND THAT INCLUDES FAMILY WHO MAKE IT SO DARN HARD TO DO A PROBATE PROCESS AND MAKE ME PAY OUT OF POCKET ON THEIR BS BUT I STILL LIKE THEM— EVERYONE IS GREAT—( and have met A FEW TIMES WE MET HER BUT I DON’T KNOW WHAT MUSIC SHE PLAYS WWTKTT OR WHAT SHE READS FOR LEISURE OR EVEN IF SHE ENJOYS THIS BLOG OR NOT- WE NEVER KNEW EACH OTHER LIKE THAT. I DID HOWEVER GIVE HER A NAVAJO BARBIE FROM MY EXTENSIVE COLLECTION BECAUSE SHE HAD JUST TAKEN HER DAUGHTER TO NAVAJO NATION WHERE I AM WELCOMED IN THAT NECK OF THE WOODS IN AREAS MOST CANNOT TRAVEL BECAUSE OF WHO I KNOW…AND IT WAS FUNNY BECAUSE HER DAUGHTER NAMED THE DOLL AFTER THE STREET I LIVE ON AND ANOTHER FUNNY THING WHILE SONNY WAS IN MONTANA AND SHE WAS DRIVING THROUGH SHE STOPPED BY AS I WAS DOWN-SIZING A CLOSET AND I GAVE HER MY LONG TIME GOLDEN RETRIEVER ALMOST TO LIFE STUFFED BREATHABLE DOG NAMED SONNY WHO HAD CERTIFICATE “BEFORE” I MET TEX (SONNY) BECAUSE HER DAUGHTER WAS WANTING A PUPPY SO BAD AND I THOUGHT FOR HER AGE THIS WAS A PROPER THING TO DO; ELDERS AND KIDS ARE MY LIFE…SO WHEN I HEARD A KID WANTED A PUPPY THAT WAS NOT YET TIME FOR—SONNY THE DOG WAS SECOND BEST; HER DAUGHTER RENAMED IT AND NOT EVEN KNOWING IT WAS MY LONG TIME FRIEND WHO IS DEAD NOW; SOPHIE SO YEAH THAT IS MY PERSONAL MOMENTS SINCE THE FIRE WITH FERNANDA SANTOS BESIDES THIS PHOTO FROM HIKE https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5922175655744920065/5932071008155460306?pid=5932071008155460306&oid=112068160404980104272&authkey=CNDDgaG_gt2UAQ AND ON ONE OF MY PHOTOS ON THE PRIVATE GOOGLE PICS STATED OCT 6, 2013 “we met Fernanda at the Shelly and Steve’s Ranch House rest (best grease spoon spot) and she paid for our breakfast we split – had coffee and headed out to Patti R’s home (librarian) and went on the trails between 7-8am and Patti started to worry as we reached her home between 4-4:30pm—everyone stated Mrs. Santos was a very pleasant down to earth woman and look forward to her return- she is family everyone considers Fernanda where the others we hiked with- they were just reporters getting a story- SO REALLY IF YOU LOOK AT ALL HER EMAILS TO ME THEY WERE NOT REALLY BASED ON GETTING TO KNOW ME BUT ME ASSOCIATED TO THE YHF- THAT IS FACTS SO PEOPLE DO NOT GO THINKING I AM BIAS BECAUSE THERE ARE PLENTY I HAVE HIKED AND “CALLED OUT” SINCE AND ONE TOPIC FERNANDA AND I FACED PRIVATELY AND SOME ASKED HOW COME HERS WAS PRIVATE BUT YOU HAD NO PROBLEM TO DO ME PUBLIC AND TO ANSWER THAT PERSON; FERNANDA HAS BEEN FORTHCOMING AND IF SHE EVER TALKED NEGATIVE TO OTHERS ABOUT US IT NEVER TRINKLED BACK TO US WHEREAS IT HAS ON OTHERS WE HIKED LIKE JOHN MACLEAN WHO BY THE WAY WWTKTT I LIKE AS WELL BUT AS IT COMES I HAVE SHOWED IT ON HERE EVEN GETTING HEAT FOR DOING IT THAT WAY VERSUS EVERYTHING BEHIND THE SCENES AND THE ONLY THINGS I HOLD ON BEHIND THE SCENES ARE THINGS I HAVE TOLD KNAPP AND FORESTRY WHERE TO SUBPOENA ON TOPICS BECAUSE FOR THE HIKER TO SAY IT—HOLDS NO VALUE AND MUST BE FIRST HAND.
                    ) this woman, Joy.

                    I have not. SHE IS A KIND LADY.

                    You also don’t seem to understand the fundamental issue here. YES I DO. I JUST THINK THERE IS CATEGORIES THAT ONE COULD STATE ” I READ THE BOOK AND FOUND AREAS TO BE NOT CORRECT” BUT WHEN I TOOK THE TIME TO RESEARCH MIRRIAM DICTIONARY THEN I LEARNED I OWE YOU AN APOLOGY ON THE USE OF WORDS BECAUSE I THINK OF TRASH GARBAGE BUT THE DEFINITION MEANS INACCURATE OR USELESS DATA AND SO YOU MAY STAND BY YOUR COMMENT 100% BECAUSE I HAVE NOT YET GOT THE BOOK I CANNOT SAY IT IS INACCURATE BUT I CAN SAY BASED UPON THE FINDINGS YOU STATED THAN YES IT WOULD FALL INTO INACCURATE ON ABEL/MUSSER BUT AGAIN NOT TO STICK UP FOR HER BUT SHE IS A NEW YORK EDITOR BASED OUT OF ARIZONA WRITING A BOOK WITH A TITLE LIKE YOU STATED “FIRE LINE” BUT US THE HIKERS WERE TOLD IT WAS GOING TO BE ABOUT THE SPECIAL BOND ABOUT THE MEN SO THE REST WE HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED BUT WITHOUT ALL THE FACTS AND INFORMATION AND KNOWING HER STYLE…NOT KNOWING HER…IT COULD BE THE PEOPLE SHE TRUSTED ON THE FIRE THAT DAY ARE PART OF THE FACADE AND SHE WAS NOT CORRECTED ON HER MANUSCRIPT BECAUSE MAYBE THOSE PEOPLE SAID THEY READ IT ALL BUT MAYBE THEY DID NOT…

                    It’s about ‘credibility’. I GET YOU. I KNOW WHEN GARY WRITES HIS BOOK HE WILL GET THE HIKERS STORY ALL RIGHT FROM START TO END.

                    If she is SO WRONG about SO MANY things that anyone with a browser and a mouse can go ‘fact check’ themselves… then I can’t trust ANYTHING she is saying.
                    I DON’T AGREE THERE- I WOULD PLACE IT IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS THE TRUE TIMES OF MY PHOTOS AND ACCOUNTS- I KNOW WHAT THEY WERE ONLY BECAUSE OF MY MOM’S CALLS AND DAN JACOB AND TO MY HOME- OTHERWISE I WOULD BE TOTALLY BLANK WITHOUT TIMES TO OFFER ON THE YHF…

                    For all I know… she is also ‘making up’ what you call “the rest of it”.I HAVE NOT READ IT YET- I KNOW ALOT OF LOVED ONES TOO- I AM SURE THEY WILL TALK IF IT IS NOT RIGHT-

                    Maybe she should have added a title page that has that famous quote…

                    “Half of what you will be told in this book is bullshit… but I’m not going to tell you WHICH half”.OH SHIT. YOU ARE HARD.

                    She doesn’t deserve to make a DIME off this thing.WHAT DOES DESERVING HAVE TO DO WITH IT? WE THE HIKERS WERE OFFERED MOVIE AND BOOK DEALS AND DECLINED BUT ONLY BECAUSE SONNY’S SON DIED AND THAT HE WANTED CLARITY FOR THE LOVED ONES…THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DEALS FOR US—

                    It’s just BAD… almost ‘fraud’.”PICK OUT THE FRAUD PARTS AND WE CAN GO OVER IT- PRIVATELY OR HERE; NO MATTERS…

                    Reply

  140. The lessons learned from violation of the 10 & 18 and LCES on the YHF, should have certainly all been learned by the WFF community by now, almost three years later. I feel the repeated discussion of that particular aspect in this forum at this time is just filler, until the rest of the truth comes out, and it will.

    The greater mystery to be solved, which I believe includes the most important lessons to be learned from this debacle, is how all the various external factors clouded the judgement of individuals involved with the decision making.

    While much of that has been discussed and debated here on IM previously, without a full telling of the known facts, those lessons cannot be put together to be learned.

    Only a careful examination of each factor will provide the important lessons to be learned regarding the effects of external influences, the same types of influences that will again kill firefighters in the future, if not addressed.

    The only way to properly identify and examine those factors, is for the rest of the truth to come out. It WILL come out (to the rest of us) eventually, because some of the people with first hand knowledge have already spilled it to their closest confidants as we have seen and heard, both, in court filings, and on this IM webpage, and it’s likely, that many of those folks want the whole truth to be public, they just don’t want to be forever branded as the one who broke the code of silence.

    It’s time!

    Reply

    • My mention of the 10 & 18, etc, above, having become just filler on this forum, does not include the recent discussion of the 10 & 18 possibly as having been utilized as a CYA for management. I think there is some validity to that point, and I’d like to see some further discussion of that issue.

      Reply

      • My amen was to
        Its time

        I think talk about what u want any of the time..10&18 being brought back up was good for me .eye wakener

        Reply

        • The 10 and 18 are the basis of all Fatality Fires How can you call it Filler?

          Some one died for each and every on of them and continue to Die.

          Discussing them over and over which is done over and over every year in training including the most current. The discussions as well cover the actions of overhead and their part in the outcomes. IT is what many media and Citizens never see because it is in every training class through out the country.

          Because the Arizona Academy did not want to talk about it dose not mean every one else is the same.

          THEY ARE NOT FILLER — you insult me and every fire fighter that relies on them every day. The Thousands that live and work with them and go home to their families because of them every year.

          Try and imagine the number of Fire Fighters and the number of shifts over the past 60 years that never died and actually followed the 10 and 18 (13) verses the Fatalities from the actual flames.
          The Safety record is astounding The number of exposures verses the number of close calls and the number of Fatality’s on a yearly bases. The Fatalities are gut wrenching do not get me wrong.

          Their is a National industry training session that goes through a triangle on accidents. The Accident pyramid—
          I do not remember the exact numbers but it goes like this.
          480 exposure’s to possible accident ( Failed to follow safety rules). There will be 80 close call’s, 10 accidents where injury occurs and 1 Fatality.
          Once you fail to follow a Safety rule then you become a statistic.
          Really simple when you do not follow the Safety rules sooner or latter it will catch up with you.

          The average Fatality fire is one percent or less of all the other fires over a 1 year period. an average of 20 to 30 Fatalities per year verses 50 to 100 thousand exposures, Just my figures calculate it your self.

          Reply

    • Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
      post on May 7, 2016 at 12:58 pm

      >> TTWARE said…
      >>
      >> The lessons learned from violation of the 10 & 18 and LCES on the YHF,
      >> should have certainly all been learned by the WFF community by now,
      >> almost three years later. I feel the repeated discussion of that particular
      >> aspect in this forum at this time is just filler, until the rest of the truth
      >> comes out, and it will.
      >>
      >> Only a careful examination of each factor will provide the important lessons
      >> to be learned regarding the effects of external influences, the same types
      >> of influences that will again kill firefighters in the future, if not addressed.
      >>
      >> It’s time!

      I agree.

      And… some other people AGREE with you too… such as…

      ** THE WIDOW OF ERIC MARSH AGREES WITH YOU…

      And after a long period of Amanda Marsh saying that she has never really been that interested in the ‘details’ of what happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… she recently had THIS to say on her own PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” Facebook page…

      Amanda Marsh: “I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the TRUTH of what happened so that future fighters can learn.”

      https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/

      ** THE LONE SURVIVOR NOW ALSO AGREES WITH YOU…

      Just this week… Brendan McDonough called ( PUBLICLY ) for a ‘reopening’ of the investigation so that ALL firefighters in the future can know what REALLY happened… and LEARN the PROPER LESSONS.

      Here is an excerpt from one of Brendan McDonough’s PUBLIC interviews that he’s been giving all week long in association with the release of his new book…

      KTAR News ( Radio )
      May 2, 2016 – Hour: 3
      http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314

      Content description…

      Mac and Gaydos of KTAR Radio talk with Brendan McDonough, the sole survivor of the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 of his firefighting brothers. Brandon wrote the book “My Lost Brothers.” which will be available for sale tomorrow, May 3, 2016.

      From this radio interview with Brendan McDonough…
      —————————————————————————————
      +16:23
      Interviewer: With the investigation… did you… did you read over the investigation?
      Do you kind of agree with what the investigation found?
      What were your thoughts on how it all kinda sort of ended and wrapped up with the government investigating everything?

      +16:34
      Brendan McDonough: I think with the investigation there’s some things that… there’s definitely some things that have been found since then. Since the investigation. I believe it needs to be opened up again and some… certain things need to be added to it because… any decision that was made that day led to their death… and we need to learn from that… and the wildfire community needs to have those answers and those lessons so that we can prevent this again. So I believe there’s a LOT of information that has been found and… will probably CONTINUE to be found for quite some time that needs to be put… put in there… so when someone looks it up that they can… they can SEE it… they can LEARN from it. Ya know… 20 years from down from the road these young fireman can… can SEE these lessons learned… and PREVENT it.
      —————————————————————————————–

      So Brendan is specifically calling for the ‘re-opening’ of the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation and he says (quote) “certain things need to be added to it” because (quote) “any decision that was made that day led to their deaths”.

      There’s no other way to read that other than to now assume Brendan is SURE there is “more to learn” about why the GM Hotshots ended up where they were… and that these ‘other things’ that he is sure have YET to be revealed represent important “lessons to learn” for future Wildland Firefighters.

      He basically just said that he believes there were “decisions made” along the lines of “orders from fire command” that were made that day ( and which caused them to end up where they were ) which have yet to be revealed… but still SHOULD be revealed.

      And he’s not talking here about ORDERS from just Eric Marsh, either.

      Brendan seems to be saying “look up” and ask WHY even Eric Marsh would have been insisting that Jesse Steed bring the crew out of the ‘safe black’.

      So anyone out there who has been doing their own ‘mental gymnastics’ for all this time thinking that the withholding of information was somehow ‘protecting’ widows like Amanda Marsh and their poor PTSD-ridden ‘brother’… can now ‘fuhgetaboutit’.

      Speak up. It’s time.

      Reply

      • Ironically, it’s Brendan that could provide a significant portion of the factual details in clarifying the ‘missing elements’.

        Brendan saying that, hopefully, 20 years from now, young firefighters could use these lessons to save lives, while at the same time, he withholds pertinent critical information, just rings hollow to me.

        What about TODAY’S young firefighters, Brendan??????????? Are you just going to leave them hanging??

        But, I guess there’s books to be sold, and movies to be made, truth be damned.

        Reply

        • Last week, there was another recent YH Fire Staff Ride that actually included the BRHS this time. The SW Regional Fire Director insisted that they be allowed to participate this time.

          In the After Action Review (AAR), some participants and/or Subject Matter Experts (SME’s) commented that having the BRHS actually there as participants and/or SME’s during the latest Staff Ride and providing comments “WAS A DISTRACTION.”

          Really, a distraction?

          Like sharing what the BRHS have been foreclosed from speaking about all this time and finally allowed to share their story, is considered by some to be a distraction. Really? WTF!?

          This goes along with a comment made by one of the SME’s on the Alpha or Beta Staff Ride, something to the effect of: ‘What difference would it make to have the BRHS participate in a Staff Ride?’

          Really? How about, they were actually there through the whole thing and could/would contribute quite a bit toward what happened that day, and why. You know, things like the truth.

          Reply

  141. JOYY if u do not know brendan do not call himm his nickname donut …//… call him BRENDANN…//… dam insensivtive

    Reply

    • listen to me dale1—-I can call Brendan …Brendan…or Donut…who the hell are you to tell me what I can or cannot do?

      Reply

    • how is that insensitive—every person I hioked with who knows him—calls him Donut and some ain’t his pal—ok

      Reply

      • I have never called him an idiot…so why not call those people out on here that have- why isolate me dale1? who are u?

        Reply

        • Go for it Lady—– He put his book out there and is referred to as DONUT.

          Makes it a open subject.

          Reply

    • Donut has earned his nickname. My nickname is Sonny and real name Tex. I don’t mind the nick name. Donut has been very insensitive to the loved ones by keeping the truth back from the beginning. This truth has been kept back from the taxpayer as well whom have footed the bills amounting to millions of dollars. It has also been insensitive to the many home owners that have lost everything to this debacle.

      I do regret his poor child hood. We have his book and contributed $16 to finally get some of the testimony that he had kept so long. I realize he is a young inexperienced wild land fire fighter and has been directed by those above him but he still is part of this play and should have been honest from the get go, but for whatever influences and reason has not been. His youth and inexperience does to some small degree mitigate his dishonesty.

      Lying can be from commission or omission. His case was mostly omission, but none the less deceit. You will find the wild land fire fighters to the greatest degree support truth and facts over feelings. Truth and facts are what improve the methods–what will explain to future fire fighters things to keep them alive–and point out the errors and methods the GMHS crew had that killed them. Those were needless deaths and no one discounts their efforts, only their means ==ways that were deadly to the mey==methods that future firefighters are needful to be mindful of.

      It is all the way to Chapter 24 that Joy let me know Donut finally talks about the fire. She had read to there and there is where I began reading. The book is about Donut–good lord, I am Irish as well. We came down from some poor Irish farmers driven from Ireland during the potatoe famine. My people settled on land in southern Illinois north of Mt. Vernon. They ecked out a living on an 80 acre farm and many of my relatives still live in the area farming the land. Some have never gone beyond 30 miles from home, owning a tractor that they even take to church as their means of transportation. Some of course now have nice pickups and cars–and I have visited the farms–best black berry pie made by my aunt Mattie while still in her 90’s. So most of our ancestors were not bad blokes inclined to bad behavior.

      Now about the fire, on page 215 Donut gets into the thinking of Eric Marsh. I can tell you from that he was deducing this from all he was hearing on the radio and from knowing Marsh. If you go there you will see he talks of the supervisors worry of balancing the safety of his men and keeping his job. It is obvious that Donut knew of the orders to go down and knew that Marsh had enough pressure on his ass that he had to pressure Jesse –his job and perhaps promotion to Willis status was on the line. I personally believe Marsh knew he was taking a high risk with the men, but he was overestimating their physical ability to get through that brush. That draw where there was what appeared to be a clear run was very deceptive and they were next to it where they deployed. When you were in it it was no easy route to take and only a small bit easier than the terrain outside it. I know because we were in those so called easy going draws (arroyos) where sand and brush are still encountered slowing progress.

      Donut says they were on the saddle around 4:20 (pg215). Around sounds about right–since it took us 20 minutes (Bret and Sonny) to hike down from the two track to the fence where the GMHS deployed. The saddle is another 100yds below the two track if that is where they went down. Now since Donut says they were lighting backfires along the hill below the two track, then god have mercy those boys were cutting themselves off from getting back to the black once that wind changed. Shit what were they thinking, and you did not need a weather man to see those storms brewing to the NE since early morning before 9am in plain view of everyone on that mountain.

      I thought it interesting that with all his experience Jesse Steed was happy about Donut’s decision to use the old grader area as a deployment area. These men had fought manzanita fires at the Doce fire–they surely were unwise how to keep alive and had little respect for these type fires. Why they need to expose the ignorance that was so prevalent among those leaders of the GMHS and how little respect they had for these type fires.

      Donut surely knows now he would have died at the old grader. He and Steed should have known that before they even considered the old grader spot as a safe deployment area. All this information that Donut has given us gives us makes us understand that the GMHS leaders were woefully neglectful in respecting the lives of their men. Good God man, those leaders down below that could see all the shit Donut gives us in his book should have been screaming to those men to get into the black and stay in the black until they could safely walk out of that place-never ever get trapped into a canyon and situation with a fire totally out of control.

      So Donut has finally come forward with some useful information–yet still I believe he has more he has not said.

      Reply

      • again. I am going to ask dale1—why isolate ME—when it is OBVIOUS I am not the only one on this site that says Donut—looks like Sonny used it fifty times just now…

        Reply

        • Joy Ignore him he jumps in and out of here and never explains him self.

          I truly believe it is a GAME——

          Reply

      • Addendum: Note that Donut mentions that Marsh declined to go down there to the ranch at the outset. Once he did commit to the Boulder Springs so called bomb proof (it was not–refer to Gary Olsen’s report that 16.2 acres are needed in this type fire for bomb proof)–then we conveniently find that communications are lost. Dead men can’t talk. But Marsh’s arguments with Steed tells us that Marsh had some stern orders from superiors to do what he did. How else when he refused to go down would he change so adamantly–but keep those communications hidden. It stands to reason, because many out there have other evidence–Marsh was expected to do a structural protection effort–and as Donut says it was weighing orders to preform against job and promotion possibilities–even at high risk. Sadly we see that because wild land fire fighting is such a high risk that when men are killed in a situation such as the Yarnell Hill, Mann Gulch, Storm King, etc. it is written off easily because of that very fact–not to the negligence and ignorance of those in charge as we saw here.

        I looked at the Storm King fire photos and the terrain, manzanita, and situation are almost identical–even the weather changes, yet because so much was hidden we continue to see these catastrophes I consider Dr. Ted Putnam a personal friend–and knowing the man, his years of fighting wild land fires, smoke jumping and then seeing that he would not sign off on what was written up by investigators on the Storm King tells me much. People are covering asses of cohorts and fearing law suits–yet millions are spent on these debacles and men continue to die due to poor knowledge and poor management. Saying that this thing was a God thing is bull shit, and sending Pulaski armed men down to protect structures in a fire that thousands of gallons of retardant has miniscule effect is like putting the condemned man into the lion den at a Roman Coliseum.

        I think the system will try to continue to hide the evil that kills so many innocents. They want to keep people away from the site, to present a young inexperienced wild land fire fighter into the lime light to keep the eyes off where they ought to be and continue to draw benefits and accolades for a shitty job at Yarnell and methods that will continue to kill fire fighters.

        In the new modern age of the internet it becomes much harder to cover–many experienced and keen eyes looking at this tragedy. Their concern is that they know why these men died and they want the real reasons out there. An inexperienced wild land fire fighter will not be their voice–he is only a pimple compared to the combined experiences of people retired from the wild land fire fighting profession–Those are the men we must listen to if we want to save future wild land fire fighter lives.

        Reply

        • If you get this book you may conclude that this is not at all a book written by Donut–In fact with his little knowledge about wild land fire fighting he could have never written by a very small part of this book. I would say that Stephan Talty who is the real writer of the book and has his name in very small letters below Donut’s name ought to get at least 90 if not 99 percent of the credit. Joy says she enjoyed the book–good enough for me–I will take her word for it.

          Reply

          • I also wanted to say again Joy and Sonny—-

            That is why all Fire Fighters have the right and responsibility to refuse a unsafe order.

            BASED ON THE 10 AND 18 they can and do that on many occasions.
            I did it, My superintendent did it. 6 others that I know personally did it.
            Order turn downs happen all the time using the 10 Standard orders and the 18 Situations that shout watch out.
            The Sadler Fire I referred to Last Chapter is a classic example of a type 1 team being held responsible.
            Last year two Hot shot Crews turned down a assignment
            in northern Idaho. The IC was later removed form his team and can no longer work on fires in a team capacity.

            Arizona State needs to get some balls and start removing those that
            were involved in the Yarnell Fire.

            While some do not like what I say the simple fact is the Fire Fighter, Crew Boss, STLD, Divs. and leaders of Crews Type 2 and Type 1 HS
            Are the responsible people for the Immediate Safety of them selves and their Crews. Marsh and Steed were with in their rights to refuse to move out of the Black if they did they took full responsibility for that move.
            They killed their Crew. Because of their actions.

            We still have no information that any one besides Marsh Ordered them to the BSR. All the rest is just part of the Domino effect and the rest of the story. There should have been accountability assigned to the overhead for the total mess they created on this Fire. The crew even with all that still had the ability to stay safe with out Risk. They were under no obligation to Risk Safety to move.

            Reply

    • Dale1…my background is strong in culinary and on any given day one would say you coming here was the best sauce but to me its hunger that makes the best sauce…hunger for integrity and clarity to be shown. For your sensitive state I will exactly abide you personally and call him Mr. McDonough…I bow down to your entry and my up most apologies you had taken offense on a name well used…good day…oh before I go was there ANYTHING else I wrote below that caused you any discord… Should spoons be gathered for this delightful visit of yours?

      Reply

    • Oh and another thing dale1,..Mr. McDonough has a pure opportunity to change lives and possibly the way they fight fires…he said his dad was a legacy…I just don’t want him to get older thinking “I am a legend” as it is . it will remain in his own mind…if he opens up then and only then will he see what integrity means.

      Reply

    • I prefer to call him Douche-Bag…

      He knows exactly what the truth is but is not man enough to tell it…

      Definite Douche-Bag!!!!

      Reply

  142. Reply to calvin post on May 6, 2016 at 4:04 am

    >> calvin said…
    >>
    >> Marsh is captured saying “I knew this was coming when I called to see what
    >> you’re comfort level was” in the first MacKenzie video.
    >>
    >> We (or at least me) have been working under the assumption that Marsh had
    >> just left the crew circa 1530ish and headed south, first to.meet Frisby, then
    >> on down off the mountain.
    >>
    >> But I wonder if/when this call from Marsh to Steed happened?
    >>
    >> And the all important question, what was coming??
    >> What was Marsh checking Steeds comfort level about?
    >> And at what time?

    At exactly 1553:15 ( 3:53:15 PM ).

    1553:15 – Christopher MacKenzie has now switched from using his iPhone to his
    Canon digital camera and he now shoots his first 9.24 second MOVIE clip
    with filename MVI_0888.MOV.

    Audio captured in this 9.24 second MVI_0888 video clip…
    —————————————————————————————
    (Eric Marsh, on the radio, with modulation): Ah… I jus… I was just sayin’ I knew this was comin’ when I called ya and asked how… what your comfort level was. I could just feel it… ya know.

    (Firefighter standing to the right of Jesse Steed): ?( We’ver been feelin’ it all day )( then he spits on the ground and the FF to his right laughs at what he said ).
    —————————————————————————————

    As for EXACTLY what ‘comfort level’ meant… even after TWO investigations and THREE books… we still don’t know.

    “knew THIS was coming” could have meant…

    1. The weather change and fireline reversal?
    2. Orders from fire command to ‘get to town’?
    3. Something else?

    If Brendan McDonough still knows what that ‘conversation’ was REALLY about… he is still not saying.

    >> calvin also said…
    >>
    >> I am thinking maybe Marsh headed south, out of the black before 1530?

    The only evidence we have that keeps Eric Marsh there at the anchor point until 1540 ( 3:40 PM )… is the evidence regarding that second ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh asked Brian Frisby to have with him… and the assumption that Marsh would have been right there waiting for Brian Frisby to arrive for that second face-to-face meeting and Marsh KNEW ( and could probably SEE? ) that Frisby WAS on his way up there in the UTV Ranger, just prior to ‘stumbling’ across Brendan McDonough at that ‘T’ intersection just east of the old-grader.

    If Frisby has ‘missed’ Brendan as he was passing that point… Frisby would have probably continued on up the two-track to the anchor point for the requested face-to-face, and he would not have actually ‘arrived’ all the way up there until 1544 ( 3:44 PM ) at the earliest.

    So if Marsh had ‘taken off’ to the SOUTH to ‘scout’ at any moment earlier than 1540 ( 3:40 PM )… and Frisby HAD ‘arrived’ up there for the face-to-face circa 1544 ( 3:44 PM )… then the conversation between Frisby and Steed would have gone something like this…

    Brian Frisby ( to Jesse Steed ): “Okay.. I’m here. Where’s Marsh?”
    Jesse Steed ( to Brian Frisby ): “Well… he took off to the south already to do some scouting”.
    Brian Frisby ( to Jesse Steed ): “What the FUCK???”

    ** THE LONG STORY

    This TIMELINE picks up at 1526:58 ( 3:26:58 PM), right before Eric Marsh was about to call Brian Frisby and request the second face-to-face meeting… and continues until the last known photo was taken at the ‘rest spot’ at 1555:31 ( 3:55:31 PM ).

    These times have all been VERIFIED using Air Study radio captures and the associated (accurate) timestamps, photograph and video timestamps, GPS data and timestamps, Unit Logs and actual testimony and interview transcripts.

    ———————————————————————————————————
    1526:58 – Frisby and Brown are stationary at the WEST end of the ‘Cutover Trail’,
    according to Cory Ball’s IMG_1882 photo, taken with his iPhone 4s. Dozer in background.

    NOTE: In the 1526:58 ( 3:26:58 PM ) Cory Ball photo, Trueheart Brown
    does NOT ‘have his gear with him’ ( No field pack on, etc. ). This would appear
    to CONFIRM that Marsh had NOT yet called Frisby and asked for that second
    face-to-face meeting… because the moment after that… Both Brown’s and Frisby’s
    Unit Logs say that is when Brown ‘got his gear out of the ranger’ and started his
    hike EAST on the Cutover trail… and Frisby took off to the WEST in the Ranger.

    GPS data says Trueheart Brown started his HIKE to the EAST on the Cutover
    trail sometime between 1528 and 1529. He was ‘stationary’ at 1528 where he
    had been standing for a few minutes ( and photographed by Cory Ball ), but by
    the time the GPS unit updates a minute later, at 1529, he has now moved 149.67
    feet to the EAST on the Cutover Trail ( the start of his hike to the EAST ).

    1527:00 – Frisby and Brown are still stationary ( according to GPS ) at the WEST
    end of the ‘Cutover Trail’ ( according to Brown’s GPS location data ).
    1528:00 – Eric Marsh requests second face-to-face with Brian Frisby.
    1528:30 – Trueheart Brown gets his ‘gear’ out of the Ranger and starts hiking EAST on Cutover Trail.
    1529:00 – Brian Frisby departs in the BR Polaris Ranger to meet up with Marsh.
    1529:51 – Byron Kimball begins his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.

    (Byron Kimball): “As per ( US National ) Weather Service ( slight pause )… within the half-hour,
    (pause) EAST winds. (pause) Possibility of as high as 50 miles an hour or likely 25 (pause)
    definitely 25, 35 gusting 40 (pause) east / northeast within the half hour. Um… the
    outpoint to outflow line also ( will be ) located…”

    ( Video capturing radio traffic ends at 1530:14 and the rest of the weather report is cut off )

    1530:00 – Brown ‘pauses’ on his hike EAST and ‘stands still’ to listen to Kimball’s weather report.
    1531.00 – Byron Kimball has now finished his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
    1531:30 – Brown resumes his hike EAST after finishing listening to Kimball’s weather report.
    1532:00 – Frisby is still heading towards Marsh and Brown is still hiking EAST on ‘Cutover Trail’.

    According to Brown’s Unit Log, Marsh requested the face-to-face
    a minute or two BEFORE the 1529:51 start of Byron Kimball’s weather report.
    Frisby ‘took off west’ in the Polaris Ranger just BEFORE the weather report, and
    Brown had just started his hike to the EAST on the cutover trail. Brown then
    seems to STOP and PAUSE to listen to Kimball’s weather report for only that
    minute or so between 1530 and 1531. At 1531… Kimball has now finished
    his weather report because Brown is now hiking EAST again, right after 1531.

    1533:00 – Immediately following the ‘weather advisory’, Jesse calls Brendan to pass the
    information on to Brendan ( who did not hear it )… and they then decide ( together ) that
    Brendan needs to ‘evaluate where he is’.

    1534:00 – Brendan told ADOSH that winds started ‘picking up’ right after the ‘weather advisory’.
    1535:00 – Brendan and Steed decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to leave lookout spot.
    1536:00 – Brendan starts his 3 minute walk down from his lookout spot.
    1539:00 – Brendan finishes his walk down and emerges at ‘T’ section.
    1539:30 – Brendan considers deployment options and then gets ready to call Frisby.
    1540:00 – Frisby accidentally comes across Brendan at the ‘T’ section.
    1540:30 – Frisby talks with Marsh over intra-crew using radio Brendan handed him.
    1540:45 – Frisby calls Brown and tells him to get drivers to move vehicles.
    1541:00 – Brown does his ‘about face’ on Cutover trail in response to Frisby’s request.
    1541:30 – Jesse Steed gives ‘tools up’ order and GM begins to assemble at the ‘rest spot’.

    NOTE: It will not be until 1544:02 that we have the first MacKenzie Canon photo showing
    the first FFs who were down below the anchor point ‘on the move’ and (apparently)
    starting to come up to the ‘rest spot’. There is another MacKenzie Canon photo at
    1543:51 showing two men just ‘resting’ down there, but not moving UP the hill yet.

    1542:00 – Frisby is now heading EAST with Brendan in the UTV Ranger.

    1542:08 – DIVSA Eric Marsh reports ( on TAC 1 ) that the fire has now burned through
    the middle-bowl retardant line that had been laid earlier in the day at the direction of
    Air Attack / Lead Plane ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ), and it is heading
    (quote) “towards the structures… uh… (pause) southern… uh… (pause) into Yarnell”.

    1542:14 – Immediately following Marsh’s report that the fire is now headed “towards the
    structures” and “into Yarnell”… OPS2 Paul Musser calls Eric Marsh ( on TAC 1 ) asking
    about GM’s “availability” and whether GM is still “committed to the RIDGE”. OPS2 Paul
    Musser made this radio call at 1542:14 from where he was supervising structure protection
    operations on Sickles Ranch Road, up on the NORTH side of the fire. OPS2 Paul
    Musser would not be seen heading towards Yarnell for another 9 minutes, when
    his dark-blue 2-door pickup would be photographed by the Panebaker Air-Study team
    passing their camera location on Hays Ranch Road at exactly 1551 ( 3:51 PM ).

    1542:32 – As of 18 seconds later, Marsh has still not responded to OPS2 Musser’s call.

    1543:51 – Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon photo IMG_0885 showing two FFs sitting
    on a rock down below the anchor point. In a few moments, they will ‘react’ to Steed’s
    “Tools Up” order and begin to walk up the slope to the ‘rest spot’.

    1544:02 – Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon photo IMG_0886 showing FFs exiting to right
    of camera down below ‘anchor point’. Wade Parker is seen on right side of photo.
    They are headed up the slope to the ‘rest spot’ where everyone else is now gathering.

    1544:08 – Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon photo IMG_0887 showing more FFs exiting
    to right of camera, down below anchor point. Andrew Ashcraft in the foreground.
    They are headed up the slope to the ‘rest spot’ where everyone else is now gathering.

    1545:00 – Eric Marsh now knows Brian Frisby is NOT still on his way up for the ‘face-to-face’
    meeting at the anchor point, and he is now already heading SOUTH and “scouting ahead” to the BSR.

    1546:00 – Frisby and McDonough arrive at the spot where the GM Supt and Chase
    trucks were parked there where the east-west two-track intersected with the Sesame area.
    Brendan starts both vehicles, gets in the Supt truck and turns on the air-conditioner.
    Brendan also turns up the volume on the onboard radio so he can hear any radio
    traffic on the GM Crew-Net frequency.

    1547:00 – Frisby is now concerned about how fast the fire is approaching and he decides
    he better take off in the UTV Ranger and head south to the ‘Cutover Trail’ to ‘pick up’
    Trueheart Brown and get him quickly back to that location… so they can then drive both
    the GM Supt and Chase trucks out of there ASAP.

    1547:13 – The moment Frisby LEFT the spot where the GM vehicles were
    parked ( in the UTV Ranger ) and started his ‘run’ to the south to pick up Trueheart Brown.

    1548:00 – Frisby is still heading SOUTH in the Sesame Clearing area to pick up Brown.

    Brendan is now ‘alone’ there with the GM Supt and Chase trucks waiting for Frisby to
    return… and he gets out of the GM Supt truck ( but is still standing right next to it ) and
    takes four pictures of the approaching fireline with his Samsung SCH-1535 camera…

    TIMELINE continued in next ‘Reply’…

    Reply

    • TIMELINE continued…

      ** BRENDAN TAKES HIS PHOTOS WHILE WAITING AT THE GM TRUCKS

      NOTE: The camera Brendan used for these photos was a Samsung SCH-1535.
      The time/date stamps appear to all be accurate and the EXIF timestamp
      information embedded in the first TWO of his FOUR photos he took there at that
      location matches exactly the times in the FILENAMES. For the second TWO photos,
      ( His images 20130630_154946.JPG. and 20130630_154947.JPG ), The EXIF
      timestamps in those photos both say they were actually taken 1 second earlier,
      at 15:49:45 and 15:49:46, respectively.

      1549:43 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154943.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.
      1549:44 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154944.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.
      1549:45 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154946.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.
      1549:46 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154947.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.

      1549:59 – Christopher MacKenzie has ‘arrived’ up at the ‘anchor point rest spot’ and
      takes his first iPhone photo ( IMG_2733.JPG ) at that location where everyone is gathering.
      See above. This photo also DEFINITELY shows the GM Supt and Chase trucks still
      parked there at the top of the Sesame Clearing area and NOT ‘moved’ yet.

      1550:00 – OPS1 Todd Abel is now speaking to Marsh on a TAC channel ( Caldwell video ).
      According to Brendan’s testimony at ‘Wildfire Today’… Marsh has already left the
      anchor point area and is now already hiking SOUTH and “scouting ahead” towards the
      Boulder Springs Ranch. Marsh tells Abel he is “working his way off the top”, but fails
      to make his full intentions known to OPS1 Abel. Abel tells Marsh to “hunker and be safe”
      without realizing Marsh is already “scouting” the route to bring GM down to the BSR.

      1550:30 – As per GPS… The moment when Frisby ‘picks up’ Brown in the UTV at the
      WEST end of the Cutover Trail, and the two of them now start driving back NORTH
      to where Brendan is waiting by the GM Supt and Chase trucks.

      1550:35 – Cory Ball’s IMG_1884 photo taken from where the dozer loboy and the BR
      Chase truck were staged, in that clearing just west of that ‘white fence and gate’ at
      the end of where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita both terminate.

      1551:00 – Wade Parker takes a photo from the ‘anchor point area’ with his smartphone
      that would eventually be attached to a TEXT message he would transmit to his mother
      13 minutes later, at 1604.

      1551:26 – OPS2 Paul Musser is photographed by the Panebaker Air-Study team
      passing their camera location on Hays Ranch Road, in Peeples Valley. Musser is
      heading EAST at that point, and towards Yarnell, driving his dark-blue 2-door pickup
      with the “Arizona Incident Management Team” square logo on the side. OPS2
      Paul Musser is coming FROM the Sickles Ranch Road area, where he had been
      supervising structure protection efforts. It has been 9 minutes since OPS2 Paul
      Musser radioed Eric Marsh ( from the Sickles Ranch Road area ) at 1542.14
      and asked about Granite Mountain’s “availability” and whether they were
      still “committed to the RIDGE”.

      1553:15 – Christopher MacKenzie has now switched from using his iPhone to his
      Canon digital camera and he now shoots his first 9.24 second MOVIE clip
      with filename MVI_0888.MOV.

      Audio captured in this 9.24 second MVI_0888 video clip…
      —————————————————————————————
      (Eric Marsh, on the radio, with modulation): Ah… I jus… I was just sayin’ I knew this was comin’ when I called ya and asked how… what your comfort level was. I could just feel it… ya know.

      (Firefighter standing to the right of Jesse Steed): ?( We’ver been feelin’ it all day )( then he spits on the ground and the FF to his right laughs at what he said ).
      —————————————————————————————

      1553:36 – Christopher MacKenzie uses his Canon to shoot still image IMG_0889.JPG
      1553:44 – Christopher MacKenzie uses his Canon to shoot still image IMG_0890.JPG

      1553:47 – As per GPS… The exact moment Frisby and Brown arrived back where
      the GM Supt and Chase Trucks were parked at the top of the Sesame Clearing area.

      1553:54 – Christopher Mackenzie now shoots his second 9.14 second MOVIE
      clip ( using his Canon digital camera ) with filename MVI_0891.MOV

      Audio captured in this 9.14 second MVI_0891 video clip…
      —————————————————————————————
      (Eric Marsh, on the radio, with modulation): …change, ya know.

      NOTE: Two words then follow which sound like either “You bet” or “Too bad”
      and might be either Eric Marsh finishing his own statement or someone
      else ( over the radio ) responding to what Marsh just said. This has still
      not been fully determined.

      (Jesse Steed, in the foreground, no modulation): I copy… and it’s almost made
      it to that two-track road we walked in on.
      ————————————————————————————–

      ( Mackenzie now switches from using his CANON back to using his iPhone )

      1554:00 – As per GPS… Frisby and Brown have ALREADY arrived back where Brendan
      was waiting, ( 13 seconds before 1554 ) and Brown is now getting into the GM Chase
      truck as they ( Frisby, Brown and Brendan ) get ready to drive the GM Supt and Chase
      trucks back down to where the GM Crew Carriers were parked.

      1554:30 – As per GPS… Frisby, Brown and Brendan depart the place where the
      GM Supt and Chase trucks were parked, and head SOUTH in the Sesame Clearing
      area to where the GM Crew Carriers are parked.

      1555:00 – As per GPS… Frisby, Brown and Brendan are ALREADY ‘on the move’
      back SOUTH through the Sesame area with the UTV Ranger and both the GM
      Supt and Chase trucks… after having stopped where the GM Supt and Chase
      trucks were parked for less than 60 seconds.

      1555:20 – Christopher MacKenzie shoots still image IMG_2737.JPG with his iPhone.
      1555:31 – Christopher MacKenzie shoots still image IMG_2738.JPG with his iPhone.

      All picture taking at the ‘rest spot’ stopped abruptly at 1555:31 ( 3:55:31 PM ).
      NOTE: MacKenzie’s IMG_2738.JPG is the end of his iPhone photos and the
      last known photo taken at the ‘rest spot’ prior to them leaving that location.

      1555:32 – All photo taking has abruptly ENDED at the ‘anchor point rest spot’.

      NOTE: Sometime in the next 8 minutes and 28 seconds, Steed and the GM crew left
      the safe black and began their hike SOUTH towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      Reply

      • Another possibility is that Marsh had already traveled south to the saddle above the bowl, and was returning to meet with Frisby with some eyeball-intel and a suggestion for a new plan.

        From Marsh’s perspective (or anyone’s, for that matter), It might be easier to get some buy-in if you’d already ‘seen it’ and ‘evaluated it’, rather than trying to push a new plan on paper (map), sight unseen, at the same time everything’s going to shit.

        When the meet-up didn’t occur, he could have easily just u-turned and headed south again.

        Reply

        • Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE)
          post on May 6, 2016 at 3:32 pm

          >> TTWARE said…
          >>
          >> Another possibility is that Marsh had already traveled
          >> south to the saddle above the bowl, and was returning
          >> to meet with Frisby with some eyeball-intel and a
          >> suggestion for a new plan.
          >>
          >> When the meet-up didn’t occur, he could have easily
          >> just u-turned and headed south again.

          I suppose that is *possible*… but if we trust a piece of testimony from Brendan himself as *accurate*… it makes that scenario *not likely*.

          According to Brendan… Marsh was right there ‘above’ him ( above Brendan’s lookout mound ) up on the ridge right up through the time that he made his way off of it and then ’emerged’ down on that two-track where Frisby was about to ‘stumble across’ him.

          From Brendan McDonough’s SECOND ADOSH interview, on October 10, 2013.

          At this point in the interview… ADOSH is going over with Brendan ( again ) the
          circumstances of him leaviing his lookout mound and being accidentally
          ‘found’ by Brian Frisby… the TIMING of which we know now looks like this…

          1533:00 – Immediately following Byron Kimball’s 1530 ‘weather advisory’, Jesse calls Brendan
          to pass the information on to Brendan ( who did not hear it )… and they then decide ( together ) that
          Brendan needs to ‘evaluate where he is’.
          1534:00 – Brendan told ADOSH that winds started ‘picking up’ right after the ‘weather advisory’.
          1535:00 – Brendan and Steed decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to leave lookout spot.
          1536:00 – Brendan starts his 3 minute walk down from his lookout spot.
          1539:00 – Brendan finishes his walk down and emerges at ‘T’ section.
          1539:30 – Brendan considers deployment options and then gets ready to call Frisby.
          1540:00 – Frisby accidentally comes across Brendan at the ‘T’ section.
          1540:30 – Frisby talks with Marsh over intra-crew using radio Brendan handed him.
          1540:45 – Frisby calls Brown and tells him to get drivers to move vehicles.
          1541:00 – Brown does his ‘about face’ on Cutover trail in response to Frisby’s request.

          At this point in his second ADOSH interview… Brendan is now telling ADOSH that both Steed and Marsh could SEE him ‘moving’ down off his lookout mound and emerging down on the two-track… because they were both basically ‘right ABOVE him’ up on the ridge…

          Q1 = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
          A = Brendan McDonough
          —————————————————————————
          536 A: …Steed had said, “Okay I can see you moving.”
          537
          538 Q1: Steed could you see move?
          539
          540 A: Yeah.
          541
          542 Q1: Okay.
          543
          544 A: And so can Eric ‘cause Eric was kinda above me up on the hill.
          ——————————————————————————–

          So if Brendan is sure that Marsh also ‘saw him moving off his lookout mound’ because Marsh was still (quote) “above me up on the hill”… then that puts Marsh still up there near the anchor point in the following timeframe…

          1536:00 – Brendan starts his 3 minute walk down from his lookout spot.
          1539:00 – Brendan finishes his walk down and emerges at ‘T’ section.

          Reply

  143. Wow… Gary and Bob…

    You two have degraded down to the lowest level of childish behaviour I think I have ever seen by 2 grown senior men….

    I would hate to see you 2 old farts end up living in the same nursing home as roomies…

    If you want to call names and rehash old wounds from 4 decades ago, why do it publicly?

    Are you doing this to try to discredit each other?

    GROW THE FUCK UP…

    Reply

    • Nope just Gary as long as he continues to attack me I will respond.

      How’s Canada doing. Have you been on the fire yet???

      Reply

      • Nope. Not yet.

        I was up in the northwest Territories all of last week delivering some inter provincial training. Spreading the gospel of using ignition’s as a suppression option.

        Alberta is in a heap of trouble and BC has its share of the boreal fires as well that are not behaving.

        If I am not on standby, maybe I will insure the motorcycle and go for a boot..

        Reply

        • Out the door to Ft St John on an ignitions assignment.

          50k acres of boreal black spruce. Should be fun.

          Reply

  144. There have been several eye-opening moments for me while participating at IM and what just happened yesterday is one of them. I have Gary Olson to thank for that.

    Many aspects of wildland firefighting have bugged me over the years and I haven’t quite been able to put my finger on it. One example is the whole concept of a fire shelter. That’s never really made much sense to me. It’s a sensitive topic for many reasons and deserves extensive honest analysis in it’s own right. I’ll just say for now that I am strongly against the whole concept of a fire shelter.

    One other aspect of wildland firefighting has been the rules, the 10 & 18. I’ve never had a problem with the concept of ‘don’t do stupid things’ on a wildfire, that’s just common sense. If you touch something hot you will immediately remove your hand from what you are touching without wasting time thinking about it. No list of rules need be consulted before this involuntarily reaction.

    I’m thinking about touring the country to give a Woodsman style safety seminar entitled: “You’re On Your Own, What Fire Managers Have Not Told You”

    My eye opening experience yesterday involved the discussion of the 10 & 18. Yes, they are common sense rules to live by but they are also something else entirely, and even though it was difficult for me to come to grips with it – there is another reason for their existence: to absolve management for any and all responsibility to the common fire fighter when things go wrong. It also provides a simple “error checklist” to refer to that serves to deflect blame from management to the little guy. It’s helpful to be a little guy in the system to understand this ‘alternate existence’ of the 10 & 18. A fire manager will simply scoff at this concept because, by golly, those are the rules! Manager’s aren’t in the trenches every day doing the dirty work.

    So, be smart out there, all you regular line firefighters! Look out for each other. Keep your heads up because there are many forces working against you and your ability to go home to your loved ones after the fire……..and it’s not necessarily the wildfire!

    Remember, You’re On Your Own!

    Woodsman

    (You’re On Your Own, world tour, copyright 2016, Woodsman, all rights reserved.)

    Reply

    • Woodsman, that is good advice to young wild land fire fighters, especially the new hybrid who like the GMHS crew might be ordered into a deadly situation to try to save structures. It is the same with many dangerous professions–if you put your safety in the hands of bosses willing to risk your life and even their own in many instances you best have a capable boss. Even better you learn and understand the rules of keeping alive in bad situations. I understood this when I watched the movie about the Chilean miners that were trapped underground for 69 days and that was due to bosses that knew they were in an area they should not be, yet continued to mine–again the same scenario as Yarnell–your job is at stake if you do not follow the leader. His job is at stake if you do not follow him and the idiots above him are duly ready to risk lives to appear good to the men above them and the public. The big pay check and pay offs are above the grunt after all–so little is thought of your life in the muddle of things.

      A good occupation is being a miner, since you know your bosses are shit else they would be miners themselves. They are either afraid of the hard work or incapable of it in mining. They know better in mining to think they know more than the miner with exceptions sometimes of older retired miners who have become bosses because they could not hack the work anymore. But in wild land fire fighting I see that people go get book and word educated and by this means often advance to positions they are fundamentally not qualified to do nor can understand the nuances of firefighting from a book or word vantage. It is like trying to be Jesus without being Jesus–cant be done and dragging a cross ten miles still makes me Sonny and I can never understand words, Jesus or any other situation that happened over two thousand years ago or some God that might send 19 men down into a canyon. Both ideas are ridiculous, but however if I were a long time fire fighter or miner right on the face of either a fire or a mine face then I would know and should have the ability to know where not to tread.

      That is why it is so important that young wild land fire fighters tramp the area those men died. Especially with men that have those long time experiences and can point out why they died and the exact mistakes they made that killed them–even to the point of taking orders when they should not have. As a miner I can teach you how to sound ground (except sandstone in Uranium mines where it cant be sounded) so you can find loose ground that will kill you–but if you don’t bother to sound ground then your life is in peril. These men knew that they had not sounded ground, by all evidence they knew that fire was licking at their buggies very near and below where they were about to descend into thick brush. The bosses had been through that brush before and nearly got caught, yet they continued to go forward without sounding the situation.

      It is very hard to deny a boss when you know they are taking you into danger. I saw that when I had to take my check at the Ward mine south of Ely, NV back in the 70’s while the mine timbers were mushrooming. Six other men believed the boss–it was safe enough and would be made safer with more stulls–yet in a couple weeks they were entrapped some quarter mile back in a drift. Only by the small fortune of a small air shaft were they able to escape or likely they would have made that particular mine a tomb. I lost a job but never counted myself a bad decision for that one.

      So, indeed if there is one great piece of advice to wild land fire fighting, fuck that idea of taking orders daily without question. Instead become as knowledgeable as possible–and learn what you can from the old timers, but when it comes to the college educated idiots ( I speak for myself as well here), fuck them when it comes to risking your life in a situation that I saw at Yarnell.

      Listen closely, I am not a fire fighter, yet hours before those men dropped off that two track I was there, I knew damn well better than dropping off into that trap. So now we have some of the most eminent men among fire fighting professions going there and trying to understand how to hell on God’s good earth did those men decide to drop off into that death trap?

      My psychic friend thinks certain trusted bosses made those determinations that they as hybrid GMHS wild land and structural protectors had the duty to risk all to make sure houses might be saved by their feeble efforts against a behemoth. It is like five boys in pink fighting Godzilla–They might have tickled his toes.

      Question all things–these newly made authorities are lacking.

      Reply

  145. Marsh is captured saying “I knew this was coming when I called to see what you’re comfort level was” in the first MacKenzie video.

    We (or at least me) have been working under the assumption that Marsh had just left the crew circa 1530ish and headed south, first to.meet Frisby, then on down off the mountain.

    But I wonder if/when this call from Marsh to Steed happened?

    And the all important question, what was coming?? What was Marsh checking Steeds comfort level about? And at what time?

    I am thinking maybe Marsh headed south, out of the black before 1530?

    Reply

    • Reply to calvin post on May 6, 2016 at 4:04 am

      >> calvin said…
      >>
      >> Marsh is captured saying “I knew this was coming when I called
      >> to see what you’re comfort level was” in the first MacKenzie video.
      >>
      >> We (or at least me) have been working under the assumption that Marsh
      >> had just left the crew circa 1530ish and headed south, first to.meet
      >> Frisby, then on down off the mountain.
      >>
      >> But I wonder if/when this call from Marsh to Steed happened?

      At exactly 1553:15 ( 3:53:15 PM ).

      >> calvin also said…
      >>
      >> I am thinking maybe Marsh headed south, out of the black before 1530?

      Not likely. Frisby didn’t ‘stumble’ across Brendan until exactly 1540 ( 3:40 PM ), so it wasn’t until that moment that Marsh learned Frisby was NOT going to continue on up for the ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh himself had requested.

      See a ‘longer’ reply up above…

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-334526

      Reply

  146. Hello out there in 10-18 Land.

    Can we start another line of thought???????????? Since I do not follow IM all that much and have a busy schedule, you might have also beat this to death, so please excuse and humor me a little.

    Initial Attack; Saturday June 29th 2013
    Yes I want to look at this with 20/20 Hind Sight. I believe the Actions on Saturday directly lead to the Fatalities of GMHS;
    1. Actions taken or not taken here, has big outcomes
    2. If you and your crew show up as IA, what you do here may have lasting consequences.
    3. Actions taken or not taken by IA Engine, Shot Crews, Incident Commanders, will inherently impact all latter Divisions.
    4. Make Your Work Count.
    5. If you rolled into Yarnell on the 30th, or fires that you have and the one yet to come. What would your reaction be? Positive? Negative? Just normal? Cluster fuck all around?

    What we know to be Factual?
    1. A “Dormant” Fire under 2 Acres?
    2. Using Helicopter Transport, ICMT4 put 13 WFF on this at 10:30am
    3. Crew worked into the night. Extracted 0900 Sunday, 30, June.
    4. Had Air support available.
    5. Failed to support Resources on Fire Ground
    6. IC Failed to put “Eyes” on Fire personally, to make any adjustments in Tactics or Strategy.
    7. Lost control of fire containment.
    8. Made no Practical results in work on the ground.

    Let please let the Rat Killing Begin
    Personal Note; I, at this time Believe that the IC and the IA Crew for Yarnell Hill was Derelict in their duties. Additionally for some reason beyond forces of “Nature” let the fire Escape control. How much resources are needed to Contain/Extinguish a “Dormant” 2 acre fire? Did IC think they could “Manage” the Fire and burn out overgrown worthless chaparral?

    Reply

    • On the question of Saturday efforts David–Those are very suspect. There is a photo of a copter with water bag that could have been used Saturday morning–time of the photo. Prison crew members have said they did not understand why it was not used since they believed that fire could have been contained early Saturday morning and they knew of that copter and bag, yet had no explanation of it staying put while the fire was in the initial and controllable stage. But do not forget three fire departments in the area, especially noted the Yarnell department neglected to take action on Friday when two cowboys could have contained the fire. So much responsibility is to be addressed on the Yarnell Hill Debacle.

      Reply

  147. Joy A. Collura, You might want to take a look at this. A realy good explanation of the 10-18, Histroy and all.

    https://youtu.be/M2L_sUDKdkw

    But keep in mind that for some the 10-18 is all that matters, and from a Culture point of view, all WFF follow, live, breathe, and yes somtimes die by them.

    I realise that some disagree with my continued thought on the matter here. As they (10-18) were developed in the begining all the way till now, they are a great SAFTEY TOOL. But tools have a way of evolving, While the 10-18 has a positive goal of saving lives, but with times being more litigious than say in the late 60’s through late 90’s, having the 10-18 has also had the effect of putting the burdden of safety right squarely on the FF.

    To ilistrate my point, take a look at Automoblies……and Safety Devices in and on them.
    1) Seat Belts
    2) Air Bags
    3) Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems.

    All of the above has undoubtley created better safety and fewer fatalities on the highways of our country. No auto manufacture can sell cars without these installed. Why? Advancements in technology and Litigation. These concepts are backed up by, IMPLEMENTED Laws at the Federal and state levels.
    >Seatbelts; Laws, law enforcment will give you a ticket for failure to wear your seatbelt.

    >Airbags; No Professional Auto Repair Facility will disable your airbags for you, while the cops may not be looking to cite you or them for having done so. It is illegal and the risk of civil Liability is to great to bear in event some one got injured in a car crash.

    >TPMS systems; again lawenforcment may be ther ready to pounce, but the industry self regulates under the mandates of the goverening laws. Tire shops will not install tires that are under rated load capacity for your paticular vehicle. will not under inflate the tires to make it ride better. or disable or delete the TPMS system

    Where am I going with this? these SAFETY items on vehicles are to important to leave up to just the Manufacture, or Driver. They are backing, you the Driver/Ocupant of the car with Levels of Redundancy of Safety. And,you as the Owner, Driver, Ocupant of a Motor Vehicle chose to not use or dissable these safety features, shift the burden of responsibility from the Manufactures to yourself when there is a Accident.

    Now back to the 10-18………Same thing applies, with the 10-18, BURDEN of RESPONSABILITY is on the WFF, with NO Guarantee of Multible Levels of Redundancy of safety. At least that is how it has played out for Yarnell Hill.

    The thing is, according to the Red Book for Wildland Operations, it is very clear that MANAGEMENT is to provide for safety, every thing they do is to ensure that is happening, Did that happen at Yarnell, I say no……………………..Remember what I said about the Staff Ride……I asked Abel, Musser and Hall if they would do anything different today than on 30 June 2013. And Uniformity they saw no reason to do anything different and was in complete agrement that GMHS made the mistake that lead to thier deaths.

    Reply

    • Thank you sir. I am heading to video now. On my way to phnx doc and may hit dead zone…don’t worry I am not driving 🙂

      Reply

  148. Bob Powers says
    MAY 5, 2016 AT 4:36 PM

    I certainly do not have to justify my self to some one who will not accept the responsibility for Killing FF and could care less. You are the only one here who needs a shrink.

    On the staff Ride what did I say over and over it was a fucking show me trip. Nothing more nothing less.

    You have fallen into childish behavior and the king of the play yard sand box but you do not even deserve that distinction. You are a real mental problem and should take some time out.

    You cant change who I am and what I have accomplished so your jealousy is taken over your sanity.
    Move on or bail out..

    And I say…I am the one with the problem? I am the one who needs a shrink. You are the supporter and steadfast apologist for management and the system who bleeds green because you support the agency and everything they do, because you were raised in the USFS. I have almost as much claim to being raised in the USFS as you do. The USFS was a big part of my life growing up as well.

    If what happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshots bothered me (or us) would I have been able to up the very next morning and hike back up the steep slope of Battlement Mesa to mop up the fire and chase down smokes? Mop up right next to where the brightly colored flagging fluttered in the breeze and bright sunshine that marked where their dead and charred bodies had laid a few hours earlier?

    So…tell me again, did I have the problem on the Battlement Creek Fire or did the USFS management team? They put the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew on that fire without fire shelters even though the Chief of the USFS had ordered fire shelters to be carried by all hotshot crews…a decade earlier. But the USFS is such a decentralized agency with most of the power at the lower levels, those managers don’t follow the WO directives unless they feel like it. Did I kill those hotshots or did the USFS?

    Did I cause the problem and kill them or did the fire team? You were just quoting my failure to follow Standard Fire Fighting Order Number 7 as gospel 40 years later. We followed the fire teams plan to the letter.

    And now who has just created another great lie that will be quoted as gospel for the next 40 years and beyond by firefighters because of the fictitious Yarnell Hill Staff Ride. So…tell me again, who had the problem and who is the problem…management who hides their culpability behind the 10 and the 18 or the firefighters who can’t do the job and follow all of them all of the time unless they have manginas like you and Fred?

    I didn’t call the meeting in the Forest Supervisors Conference Room with my crew and management where we were ordered not to discuss what happened on the fire even among ourselves just as soon as we were demobed from the fire…and so we didn’t. It was like it never even happened except they took us out of rotation for the rest of the fire season to keep up buttoned up in the middle of nowhere so we couldn’t talk to anyone else about what happened on the fire. So..I’m the bad guy and not your precious USFS?

    You are the one who needs a shrink. You are the asshole who is fucked up in the head. Two season hotshot poser.

    Reply

    • So…just real quick because I have a tell-all book to write and I can’t keep fucking around with ole Bob even though it is kind of fun. Not challenging…but fun, kind of like shooting fish in a barrel. What was the big cover ups from the SAIT and the SAIR that the Battlement Creek Staff Ride is based on that Bob just quoted from in his all knowing way?

      1. They (the SAIT) blamed the deaths of the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the firefighters themselves. The staff ride that Bob was just quoting as gospel said the two crews lacked “situational awareness” and neither crew know of the location of the other crew and violated Order #7.

      2. They (the SAIT) blamed the Mormon Lake Hotshots for making the independent decision to leave their fire shelters in fire camp. That is actually what the Battlement Creek Staff Ride quotes as gospel. No one in Region 3, which included the Coconino were ever issued (except when we went to R-5 and we threw those fire shelters in the bushes as we left fire camp) or trained on fire shelters until the following year (1977) because of the Battlement Creek Fire.

      And I learned a very interesting “rest of the story” tidbit the other day by accident while reading the Wildland Firefighter Guardian Bullshit Fire Line Safety Whatever headlined by some GMIHS family members, Holly NEILL, Darrell Willis and a collection of impressive but completely unrelated off-the-wall group of experts who have never even had the slightest thing to do with wildland firefighting (weird deal but whatever floats your boat) web site or Face book page…somewhere?

      So anyway…I learned that Shawna Legarza, who I met because she was the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Development Coordinator while I was working as a subject matter expert (SME) on said committee, is now the Director of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 5 which is California and the Pacific Islands.

      I know for a fact that R-5 has a bigger fire budget than all other nine USFS regions do COMBINED and that includes R-3 to my chagrin. I know that because a good friend of mine who used to be a hotshot crew boss on the Coconino (and we worked together on the Santa Fe) used to have that very same job.

      That job is a really big deal in the USFS. It is the most powerful and influential fire director’s job in the nation by far. So…Shawna was the San Juan Hotshot Crew Boss at the time she was coordinating the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, which totally blew me away because that assignment would normally have been WAY over the pay grade and status a hotshot crew boss.

      So…being the trained investigator I am, I immediately knew that Shawna had been handpicked to be somebody before long, but boy howdy…I had no idea she would end up in the biggest job in USFS FIRE. The WO guy is just a cheerleader who gets the funding from Congress but the power lies with the regional directors like Shawna.

      So anyway…Shawna was a very impressive person and one kick ass hotshot crew boss and anyone could tell Shawna was a blue flame destined for great things after you spent some time with her. And she was obviously one of “those people” I was talking about in an earlier post who don’t have to worry about submitting an “application” for their next job…remember?

      Shawna was great to me and I really liked her, she took me to lunch and she BOUGHT. I told her at lunch that the Battlement Creek Staff Ride had it all wrong and was basing all of the lessons learned on lies. And that as a result of that, the Battlement Creek Staff Ride would be a fictitious piece of work and would not reflect the actually lessons that needed to learned from the fire. I had told her the same thing several times in conference calls and in emails during the preceding months but she just politely ignored me.

      Anyway…it was harder to politely ignore me while we were sitting across a table from one another eating lunch because I can be…very direct and sincere, even passionate about something I believe to be right. Is that a fair statement, you who are my closest friends and confidants?

      So, while we were having a nice lunch, she listened once again very politely and then she said is a very neutral but firm voice…”You are entitled to say anything you want here, but I am going to continue to follow the Battlement Creek Fire Accident Investigation Report to develop the Battlement Creek Staff Ride.”

      And she did. Shawna followed it to the letter even though she knew it was full of lies and so now the Battlement Creek Staff Ride is one big lie and it has now been teaching wildland firefighters the wrong lessons that should have been learned from the Battlement Creek Fire now since 2006. And by the way…Dr. Ted Putnam was there as an SME also and he told Shawna the very same things that I told her but at different times. Shawna ignored everything Dr. Putnam said as well.

      BUT…Shawna now has the biggest, most important, prestigious, and influential job in USFS FIRE in the nation. So…tell me again Bob, just once more, who is FUCKED UP, you and USFS management or me? Please help me to understand.

      Reply

      • So if you have no integrity than its possible to keep up with the Jones..got it.

        More I learn about this world and I seen a lot…its a bullshit…and I am glad to be just the desert walker…

        Now…hearing that…let me go vomit…hopefully nothing green

        Reply

        • YOU GARY It was your responsibility to ensure the area was clear before you set the Back Fire. They were right weather you like it or not you violated #7.
          The FS you Hate Covered your ASS. In todays age you would have been sued by the Families. Nice to know right???????

          I spent 5 years on a back firing team in R5. Our first objective was to insure no one was in the Proposed burn area check and double check before ignition.

          Reply

          • Bob…I would like to patch things up with because you care what happened to the crew, you really do and I admire that among many other things about you. Yes, I was a hotshot for 5 times longer than you were but that is all I ever wanted to be and as you stated, you were just using the job to get to a higher position. A lot of people do that, and as those on this thread have seen, it works really well for a lot of hotshot crew bosses. That job is a ticket to the top if you have everything else to get there.

            BUT…I do need you pay attention to what I am about to write so we can move, Mr. Turbyfill has asked for that and we owe him at least that much. I am working on my “Chapter X – The Genesis of the 10 & 18” so we can cover that at a later date.

            Now…the fire plan, called the “shift plan” as you know, that was drawn up by the plans chief and approved by the fire boss, specifically called for the Mormon Lake Hotshots to be above up conducting their burn out on near the top of the mesa while at THE VERY SAME TIME we ignited our burn out from the bottom. What about that don’t you understand?

            You have to remember, this was a huge drainage covered with frost killed Gamble Oak up to 12 feet tall. And once the burn out took off, that whole valley was filled with fire and smoke and the smoke column reached thousand of feet into the air.

            So…here is the concept; The first hotshot crew starts their burn out at the same time the second hotshot crew is working on their burn out above them. Because it was such a big drainage, the fire team knew it would take a long time, it actually took about 4 hours, for the main burn out to ignited by the first hotshot crew to reach where the second hotshot crew was working. At some point, which was above my pay grade…the sector bosses, division bosses, line boss who were all monitoring the burn out was to ensure that hotshot crew did move out of the area they were working in to the safety zone which was on top and over the other side of Battlement Mesa. BUT, before that happened, the shift plan called for the second hotshot crew to use that time to continue their work. At what I assume was actually the appropriate time, the crew boss of the second crew did send the bulk of his crew which was 16 members to the planned safety zone, but unknown to the overhead, that crew boss kept himself and three others in their assigned work area to finish burning out their line because the fuels were lighter near the top and they had had problems getting it burning and they were late in even arriving at their work area due to helicopter issues. Now…by this time that huge drainage if really filled with fire and smoke because our burn out took off like a bat out of hell because the fuel was so heavy near the bottom. In all of that smoke and fire, the overhead did see the 16 members of the second hotshot crew move out the area, but as you proably know under those circumstances, counting 20 hardhats bobbing up and down on the other side of this huge drainage now filled with fire and smoke as opposed to 20 hard hats would have been hard. Plus nobody was probably be counting anyway because why wouldn’t hotshot the crew boss of the second crew remove all of his crew including himself from in front of a giant burn out that was about to reach them? And it is not that simple because there were lots of other crews working all over the place plus miscellaneous overhead moving around so counting hardhats from that distance would not have been easy for anyone. The crew boss of the second crew was disingenuous with his line supervisor and he didn’t tell him he stayed in with three others because he thought he had everything under control. The crew boss of the second hotshot crew had a big chip on his shoulder, he was in outstanding physical shape, a gung ho hardcore hotshot by even gung ho hard core hotshots standards. He was hard to get along with, arrogant, and full of hubris like we all were and he wanted to make a name for himself and his crew as being the baddest crew on the Coconino which already had three established crews with long history’s, Flagstaff, Blue Ridge and Happy Jack. Not only that he wanted his crew to be recognized as being one of the best and most aggressive hung ho crews in the nation and he didn’t want to wait years for that to happen. He wanted to be number one right away.

            Now…do you understand what happened?

            “

            Reply

            • Oh…and one more thing Bob. I neither hate nor love the USFS. It is too big, too varied, too diverse and too complex to either love or hate.

              There are things to admire about the USFS and many things they do wrong or could do, better. You are living in the past, the USFS you remember and love is like the one depicted on the Lassie Show, it doesn’t exist anymore and hasn’t for a long time. And the truth is, it probably never did except in our minds.

              So…please tell me while you are at it, how could I have been sued while working as an employee within the scope of my employment for the Crown?

              The families of the crew found out that suing a USFS mini-me is impossible like I said it would be a long time ago. No one can even sue the federal government nor its employees unless the federal government gives them permission to. I have said that many times on this thread, don’t you read it?

              Reply

            • Bob,

              I think I know what you problem is in understanding what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire.

              What the fire team did was so outrageous, so dangerous, so out of the ordinary, and so crazy that you are having a hard time wrapping your head around what they did because it was SO BAD.

              That and the fire shelter issue is THE COVER UP of the Battlement Creek Fire. Yes…they were that bad.

              Now…it was the BLM, but then the USFS teamed up with them to cover it up and now the USFS has the lead in maintaining that cover up.

              And Shawna Legarza bless her little heart that is packed into a 5’4” frame of solid muscle and brain had the lead in making sure a false history was written and she did a very good job with that and probably a lot of other “special assignments” and she earned her place at the very top of the USFS FIRE world, which is THE FIRE world..

              Shawna Legarza BLEEDS GREEN! But she treated me really good and I really liked her, but as we all know, I am not here to make friends or even keep the ones I have.

              I want to know all of the contributing factors why OUR hotshot crew died.

              Reply

              • Oh…and one more thing for those who think we should be talking about nothing but the YHF. Don’t you think it is important for you to understand just how bad these agencies and the bureaucrats who work in them can be. What they are capable of to maintain the status quo.

                Most people don’t even want to think that a benign agency like the USFS, which sponsored Smokey the Bear could be so dirty, but they are.

                What Dudley Do Wrong and so many others did on the YHF cover up and staff ride is standard operating procedure. You need to understand that. You need to know what kind of people you are dealing with.

                Reply

                • So we will go back to being civil.

                  Yes I know all about the Battlement Creek Fire.

                  It was a horribly planed Firing out /Back Fire.

                  It is never fun to wake a sleeping Dog or open old wounds
                  you pushed me there and I guess I went for the throat.

                  Your move.

                  Reply

          • I want to personally thank Donut.

            I agree with you Donut that a lot of firefighters “won’t” get your book but I do…

            thank you.

            Reply

            • one can go from Prologue to the end and pick out what you want but I am very grateful you took the time and shared like you did-

              I got your message Donut. It helped me understand the choices you made since the fire as well.

              Reply

              • I knew exactly what was Stephan Talty and what was Donut in his new book called MY LOST BROTHERS. The very one area that STOOD OUT the most for me Donut is page 66 when Eric asked you “WHAT IS INTEGRITY?” and you struggled to know the meaning as well as how to answer that question. And again on pg 87 Eric talks on it is not about $$$ but friendship and integrity. and Donut on pg 66 you stated “If I can get in- (as a GMHS) I can’t let these men down”…you know and knew FULL WELL it was about TRUST of another yet on page 82 you admit “I didn’t have the trust to let anyone in” and the men on the Weavers do not want you to have one ounce of guilt in any form but do remember the moment “Mc Do Not”…are you going to do the right thing since the book never touched base on it and talk about the moment the buggies pulled up where they did and you all gearing up…you ever hear someone when on top of a mountain from the canyon below…I do a lot when Karri Flippen is yelling at her family members her voice carries even if not yelling…that should help you get where I am at Donut and only you will comprehend what I mean there. So yes I would love for you to fill in more of the blanks like when your buggies arrived out by Sesame Street area where later the Blue Ridge/bulldozer and other fire vehicles parked. Also to the ZOMBIFIED look (pg 98 word used but also describes what Buford saw) when you drove out that day. Coming from California and your assessment of Prescott of Hillbillies and rattlesnakes (pg 32)
                Page 178 sounds like Stephan not Donut…that whole description.
                Donut- you hold the most judgement on yourself with this ol’ Brendan bs and I am going to be one to tell you do not live by that layer- release it as its non-existing and JUST BE this new man versus judgement layer you do on your own self.
                QUESTION TO FIREFIGHTERS: peak burning time in SW is 12-5; was that Stephan knowledge research or Donut there talking? Did he actually grasp that from hands on or the books- I so cannot SEE Donut wearing ray-bans but that’s just me. PG 11- “something darker/primitive took over”…and I will always feel until you truly release it all that will keep happening; “what is the meaning…MEANING…of integrity you were asked…and hope one day you will comprehend…on pg 12 Donut said before that day he never thought about going home while on the job…that one area and much throughout the book gave me insight where to research deeper on FOIAs and here he was just writing with Stephan not realizing the innocence would spark me to know where indeed to go in my curiousity of the YHF…again pg 12 “when you feel a wildfire…” and yet to this date you still opt to bypass truth and that was 12 days before the YHF where you by chance and you know it became that lookout…maybe you should listen UP…maybe the lesson in this all is for you Donut and the topic IS as Marsh felt strong about- INTEGRITY and FRIENDSHIP. Remember your daughter you mention a lot; she IS a child TODAY but tomorrow she will be an adult just like you and me and will have google access to see what the world thinks and I do think “BB” this high energy you got has to be channeled into realizing these men; some you had a connect to and some not deserve that INTEGRITY moment of you sharing the buggies pulled up and you geared up and were you in the infamous local hotshot legend Tony Sciacca mode or were you Donut that day who can be irritable tired and expressive? or as you call it on pg 24 how you core and run much like the “hot temper” legacy of your roots…was that behavior shown at all on 6-30-13 and that is how you became even to your own surprise as written in book the look out for the YHF…I think Ryan should play you in the movie—http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1185186304/nm0331516?ref_=nm_phs_md_6
                I forgot why but I scribbled on paper that I laughed at page 192…???…I did connect to you Donut throughout the WHOLE book and never put the book down. I went into reading with a blank open mind as if I was not the eyewitness of the YHF and saw you that day in action. I want to touch base on pg 186 where Donut you felt life was worthwhile to live—that statement alone would not be enough for me as the eyewitness of the YHF though seeing you in action— Pg 178 Stephan describing our terrain here with juniper and or pine…I sure hope Donut you did not feed him that…man did the author even take the hike and see? The book to me is from Donut’s compartmentalized perception but do not be shocked a second book comes out…if the volume of sales are up…

                As I told Sonny as the hikers I still think his book is a good must read to have a look into who Donut was and is…but do not buy the book if you want new or pick a part information on the YHF…it’s not that kind of read…

                I am so very sorry to the loved ones and Donut for the loss of these fine men but you Donut ARE alive and you could be of great service to the loved ones to fill in some more blank (blacked out/redacted/edited) areas.

                Thank you for your book Donut.

                Reply

  149. I may be ingnorant—we all are at times— if the alleged topics on RTS are facts in regards to staff ride than you were ignorant in your choice vs maybe someone like Dr. Ted Putnam…so ignorance is not alone…Now if Brian Frisby ever reads this site I would like to pick your brain with just ONE question…Donut is bypassing truth and on path of heroism when we know you and Eric Tarr are my heroes in this YHF moment but watching you “live and in action” that day will you bypass truth too in that you could hold the knowledge who was going to be the lookout for that day that turned into last minute Donut- who was Marsh’s “go-to” lookout guy… Musser in my humble opinion needs to sit in a room with me and answer some real questions.

    Bob Powers- I may be just a housewife and desert walker but from my view it is impossible as dictated written in manner they are to follow all the rules all the time for every single person on a crew from the boss to the bottom when you factor in human elements and so far only Don replied out of all higher up folks but what NWCG did was good rules to follow going in but my goal today was not ask the crew but ask the management level which of all the ten that we are to be FIRM and they are wonderful and to FOLLOW- which one out of the ten if you could not follow it would you come off that fire- I GET it is rules not to be bent or broken but it is impossible for an entire crew all of the time to do so I personally like to thank Paul for his time here on Earth—
    http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/gleason/hotshot.htm
    because four L C E S is much easier for me to remember than ten and eighteen even if I had it in my hard hat —let’s take smokejumpers we met over time that said they kept it in their hats and hard hats but during the stress— pressures and yes even higher up pressures— the mind slips even if you just looked at your hat and said I freaking broke all of them I should walk out and then radio comes on- re-engage and there ya go walking into danger—you are remembering all the 10&18s you are in midst of breaking but REMEMBER this “BEHAVIORS” of self, the fire, the weather, and others on the fire and off the fire CAN interfere with the end decision-bad outcome. How many firefighters have put the years in but don’t have the experience because there was no hands on for that season for them than they just have the season but not the hand on experiences- so that plays in—also wasn’t Robert Caldwell the usual lookout on other fires— anyone know that or was it Rose? How do I get the FOIA answer on that because I am interested on that topic. OH and RTS- in the history of his comments- thank you and Bob Powers too- I won’t engage in the discrediting of these men because RTS currently gives talks and he does an excellent job with his teachings. You always gave me the feeling you felt this crew had a military layer to them yet I do believe incident management were an interference in the end results and you RTS stand strong these men could of walked away from this fire but hmmm do you remember 6-30-13 the same as me? GMHS were tired, hot, worked a full 2 week shift- 16 hours- and remember that dry erase board that very day of how they felt- they began the day with low capability of stress; SPENT…”overwhelming” elements to ensure the proper decision making abilities were up to par-
    Let’s get REAL on topic of 10&18; the current trainers should be saying what Woodsman said today- that was spot on Woodsman…spot on…if these trainers teach “follow all the rules- I got your back”—you break any….
    I mean that was eye-awakening as you read and re-read Woodsman comment.
    I also want to state these men should of not been on that fire that day- end of story.

    Reply

    • JOY—They were in the BLACK a perfect Safety Zone.

      To leave the Black and not follow the simplest of Safety rules with out a full evaluation of those rules put the entire crew at a high risk. They had the entire 10 and 18 covered they were safe till they moved.

      When they moved they ignored not only some of the situations that shout watch out but their plan did not put a 100% safe evaluation into the Move. They had safer options if they needed to move. The first was stay in the Black a 100% safe decision. Second move back to the East thru the black stay in the Black back to Yarnell. That would have evolved a lot of smoke but would have been safe. Third Drop off the back side South and East into the Dessert and out to the Highway about 2 Miles Very Safe and out of ant threat by the Fire.
      When they chose to Drop into the Unburned fuel is when they started ignoring the Rules and the Watch outs. That is where it becomes their decision not any one Else. The Responsibility at that point was to evaluate the TEN STANDARD ORDERS determine the Safety wit no Risk to them self’s and the crew that is where they could have done the right things.
      That is the place where a good Wild Land FF would have stopped evaluated and made a safe plan to proceed. That saddle is the very spot where they should have made a 100% Safety Plan. They were Moving Not Fighting Fire. They had choices even then.
      Simple choices—Communicate to some one of your plan–Establish a Look Out or plan a less risky route. The 10 and 18 are a useable tool if you stop look and evaluate your position.
      That is the point the Crew Marsh and Steed Failed to see all the Red lights and Sirens going off. That is the point where Marsh and Steed became the responsible Party.
      Their decision was a High Risk Move not what is taught in Fire suppression That is what the 10 Standard Orders are meant for to help keep you safe.

      That is when you and only you make the decisions not the Fire Overhead They are not there.
      It becomes your responsibility to Evaluate make a safe plan and then move you are the one that sees the Hazards and has the sole responsibility to Mitigate those Hazards.

      The crew could have started that Process when they were in the Black. They already had visible information of the fire activity. They already had a Weather Forecast that said high and erratic winds were expected. They were hearing the Extreme problems occurring in Yarnell.
      At That point and time they were in the Safest place they could be on that mountain.
      TWO of the ten Current and Expected Fire Behavior and a weather forecast. Add in the time of day and the Temp. and Hum. all red flags and still Part of the TEN. A huge area of unburned fuel below them a fuel they would have to go through to get to the BSR.
      A critical time to evaluate and determine the risk to move and what was not a risk.

      The Overhead on the Fire had no control over that decision. The Overhead in turn should have moved the fire fighters off the fire at 1300 before every thing went to hell they should have evacuated the community the night before or at least at first light Yes they do Cary blame. They had weather forecasts that should have made that clear. The did not have the fire contained by 1500. Yes they hold some responsibility and the SAIT should have noted that as well. This Fire as Dave Said was a Cluster Fuck.

      AND BY THE WAY THIS FIRE WAS NOT RUN OR THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE FOREST.
      SERVICE IT WAS A STATE OF ARIZONA FIRE.

      Reply

      • Bob. Okay. I am there on the Weavers in the black tired spent with a lot of interferences that day from start to finish from elements of fire behavior and obvious in the distance weather and how aerial has done their area way off to safety officer…where is he…to placing a hungover not productive kid as lookout vs my usual lookout go-to guy…the fact is Marsh saved Donuts life that day by that last second change due to Donuts behavior on that morning. Donut knows it and he can say all the apple pie crap the media will buy to sell books but the PTSD is because Donut took a spot meant for another and that’s why he is alive today. Now South Canyon fire had a smokejumper..what was his name Rhodes or something that had the 10&18 IN his hard hat and hard head but STRESS ultimately made him re-engage and walk into danger…so back to me being the head of the men ..me as Marsh and Steed…without the contributing behaviors of others on that fire and the chaos and miscommunication those men can say the blame does not lay JUST on them even though they took the step OUT of the black. The man knows what I am saying here. If the men were to blame …there would be a glaze of that even today amongst the Weavers but all the men feel is they want there families to know they are whole and okay and that noone should lay blame on them or the higher ups and if lessons are to be learned it is people should show total deep respect to David Turbyfill and his venture and to fix radio concerns and the men are not ready for people to be where they died because of their loved ones emotional state and we should not be looking for blame on either one but solutions so things like the Twisp fire does not happen. And believe it or not it begins number one with homeowners really comprehending defensible space and their role and number two it begins as a team from the bottom to top in the firefighting industry including administration of all sections and with gmhs it had to include the city’s involvement or lack of…I mean they had no problem taking funds in but who ensured all areas were in place? I think change is about to happen…my gut feels it. Maybe that’s the gift the firefighting. Industry can give the men and all fallen this third anniversary vs this memorial park dedication… So again I am not a part of the blame stuff…I am though a part that there IS missing elements that need to finally come forward.

        Reply

        • Joy the simple basics regardless of any thing else.

          They were building line next to the BLACK their safest option was to retreat to the BLACK not hike a mile and a Half thru unburned Fuel down through a Canyon were they could no see what the fire was doing. Read the above again.
          I said every thing there that they were aloud to do. Turn down assignment do to Safety.

          Reply

  151. One reply so far..see-

    Hello Joy. 
    >
    > To say the 10 and 18 are BS is to discount how they came to be. When I started in the early 80’s in Hot Shot training, there were the 10 and 13. What does that mean?  It means as an industry we made note of another 5 ways to injure or kill wildland firefighters. To say they are BS would also imply that if you ignored all of them and  did the opposite, things would go better. I think we can agree that would not be the case, even to the most uneducated reader. 
    >
    > Can a wildland FF, squad boss, captain, sup, etc., ALWAYS follow the 10 and 18, every second,  and take into consideration the Common Denominators?  No it doesn’t. Many times in a career and fire fight, educated and experienced practitioners will have to weigh the risks of their tactics and strategies, and perhaps take an action that would, for a very short time, seem like it wasn’t exactly complying with all the 10, or seem to ignore one or more of the 18, but as professionals, we are paid to perform risk/benefit analyses in order to do our jobs. In my opinion, if everyone followed the 10 and 18, to the letter, all the time, we would have a really hard time fighting fires. Remember, the 18 are supposed to be “heads up” items. Pay attention- if this is happening things could go badly. Address them and remedy them. Why?  Because they have been responsible for bad outcomes in the last.  The 10 on the other hand are what we are supposed to do, all the time, every time. While you may not have obtained a forecast for a little while, you certainly should now if something is changing (hotter and drier, spots, not in communication with someone that can glue you that info- sound like the 18?). If fire behavior changes, could there be a brief time that there wasn’t complete control? Could the end of an IA shift of 18 hours cause a problem with “think clearly” or “stay alert”?  Certainly. But as a rule, the 10 ARE rules , not suggestions, for the safety of our brothers and sisters on the line. And no, they are not some kind of safety net for supervisors. Supervisors should be working to make sure they are addressed and adhered to for the betterment of the profession and the fight.  They are to keep firefighters safe- in a very unsafe environment. 
    >
    > My opinions only. 
    >
    > Don

    Reply

    • Well I have to say to Don That I followed them all the time and I fought fire in southern California for 13 years20 m0re in Northern Cal. and R4. No you would not have a really hard time Fighting fires and following the 10 and 18. That is a cop out.

      There is no RISK BENIFIT ANNALISTS IN WILD LAND FIRE —That is a Structure suppression annalists. There is no Fuel or Structure worth any Injury or death risk to a Wild Land Fire Fighter. Even in todays ICS..

      Reply

      • Bob,

        This post is not intended to refute your statement but merely to point out that we have many, many firefighters on wildland incidents today that are combination structural/wildland hybrids. This reality has turned the tables upside down when it comes to risk/benefit analysis. Particularly when structures become part of the picture, it’s a mess. For example: “risk a lot to save a lot.”

        Times have changed. It’s a bad deal out there, Bob. The problem is real. It’s bad. It should have never happened but it did. It can be changed but it won’t be easy.

        Woodsman

        Reply

        • Your out there now I am not and most of those that I had contact with are gone.

          There are still those that have the ability to put the train back on the tracks.

          Reply

  152. While back before 2000 most fatality fires were evaluated on the 10.

    That was from the ground to the IC and every on in between. The investigation said it like it was and pulled no punches. We all knew what happened and what contributed to it.

    If the Yarnell investigation had simply attached the 10 Standard Orders to all the failures we would not be here talking about it today because they would have answered all the questions. Attaching blame from the top down. You are right there was plenty to go around.
    The buck stops at the FF who is also trained to use the orders for their Safety.

    FS directive you can not be ordered to do something that is unsafe PERIOD……………If it violates even ONE of the Orders you can say NO. I was taught that in 1961 and I thought it to so many fire fighters I have lost tract in 32 years as a supervisor.

    Reply

  153. I have to agree with Gary Olsen on the basis of being on the very spot those men were before they descended to their deaths. An hour before and a bit longer we were watching a tremendous fire with flames reaching out 50 to 100 feet ahead eating its way toward Peeples Valley. I wanted to approximate how fast it was moving–and now looking at what we timed amounted to about a half mile up the base of a mountain to the top of a hill. That took only about 14 minutes but there was no significant wind pushing the fire at that time. There is no way you could even make your way through a quarter mile of that brush in 30 minutes much less 14 minutes, so one can imagine how fast fire could move once the winds from the distant storm came in.

    The state estimates that the fire overtook those men at about the rate of 11 mph. If they misjudged sending men down into that trap, I doubt those figures they gave us as well. With 30mph steady winds and 45-50mph gusts and on an uphill grade I would say double that at 22mph advance as a better estimate. But even at 11mph setting on that two track at where they went down was a dangerous proposition in itself. There was plenty of green to the north,south, and especially the dense vegetation to the west and downhill into that steep box canyon trap. That was an absolute trap they were about to enter but also the two track where they descended was a trap once that wind changed. Coming up that mountain you would have no way to run to the north since it would be cut off and then your run to the south was up a 45 degree slope of rocky two track that would have slowed your progress to get to the other side of the Weavers. Once that fire rounded that north ridge of the basin it would have already been nearly up the south side of the ridge and up that dense chimney so the north escape from there would certainly have been cut off. Once they saw it coming around the ridge. then even on the two track unless they unloaded their packs and dashed for the top their efforts would have been futile. Apparantly they did not have knowledge of how fast wind currents can come up a mountain, especially when you have two ridges to funnel the currents of air and if it is heated air with fire below, that fire will advance many times quicker than it would on a flat plane.

    Many people that come from the city do not know about a stove without a damper.or with a damper fully open. If you build a good fire in your wood stove with the damper open. then go outside and look at the top of the stove pipe you will see actual flames and embers shooting out. It takes the damper to stop that, but in a canyon there is no damper. These are things that Gary points out of being common sense. Things lots of these men apparently did not know or if they did, allowed their bosses to overrule their judgement. That is where becoming a wild land firefighter requires stringent education–something most country boys learn from experience since child hood. Too many of the wild land fire fighters do not have this experience so they need to be educated in a way to understand the significance of allowing themselves to be put into situations that they should have known, but did not know and instead trusted bosses that should have known but did not know how futile it was to challenge a dense and dry manzanita extreme wild fire under those pending storm conditions by ordering their men off that two track into a sure death situation.

    The blame goes to all those who had any thing to do with that Yarnell Fire. You only need to go to the Ranch House Café Parking lot to observe the two track and where it angles up at about 45 degrees to the top of the mountain. This was the bosses view of things and they could easily see what they were about to do by sending those men down from their café spot. You as a citizen or fire fighter from there could see if you would send 19 men down while you are also observing the fire coming toward the mountain.

    Reply

    • Since we are no longer allowed to see what caused the deaths and be on the very spot they descended then many of you will pass through Yarnell on a trip to Phoenix via Prescott or you will take the Phoenix route to Las Vegas. Right out of Wickenburg, the first town north of Phoenix you will continue north toward Phoenix for about 15 miles. Then Highway 89 is another 20 miles out of your way if you are going north to Las Vegas. If coming from Las Vegas going south you would catch highway 74 for seven miles across to Congress where you would go left on 89 9 more miles up Yarnell Hill to Yarnell.

      The point is you might as well stop at the first café, Ranch House Café, and with your binoculars or long distance camera take a look at the dirt two track very visible from the Café parking lot. You will see it stand out near the top of the Weavers looking to the west and a bit north. It is only about 3 miles distant as the crow flies and on the south end you will see the two track that generally parallels the Weaver ridge suddenly shoot up at about a 45 degree angle. Just 50 yards -or+ 10 yards north of that sudden angle is nearly exactly where those men dropped off that two track. You will need very little imagination to understand how dangerous it was to drop off that spot with a raging wild fire very close below. It will likely put a deep sadness into your heart to know that whoever was in that parking lot that day had a direct view of those men before they dropped down. You will also be saddened knowing that those men were completely safe before being ordered down into such a deadly situation. You will wonder how even 230,000 gallons of retardant could not stop that fire’s progress and how little 20 men with Pulaski’s could have been ordered to make a feeble attempt to stop such a raging fire. I think it would have been a very clear view since the wind had not yet changed direction so smoke was going up or toward Peeples Valley leaving the death basin clear at that time.

      The state people and forest bosses do not want you in there. There are certain of the loved ones want you kept out. Even wild land fire fighters and others in the fire fighting professions, and I mean professionals like wild land fire death investigators, bosses of other wild land fire fighter groups, concern citizens, loved ones that do not have special permission, close friends with legitimate reasons to go there are denied. You see much could be gained by people actually viewing the errors made close up.

      But they have failed to deny you a look at the mountain–and that view of the two track alone is testimony to how badly the men’s safety and lives were neglected that day in the name of protecting structures.

      Reply

  154. awaiting to learn more on the 10&18…it appears something so golden is being tarnished and glazed as Donut called it…hillbilly…

    Reply

    • Joy the TEN STANDARD ORDERS were developed on the back of the Fire Fighters that lost their lives in the 40’s and 50’s. They are the ones that first gave us the orders. The developers used the Fatality Fires to find what happened and why, Prior to then it was what people now want to go back to–NO RULES NO DIRECTION.

      The 18 SITUATIONS THAT SHOUT WATCH OUT which started at 13 were developed to identify the activity that indicates extreme caution. For each of the 18 there is a fire Fatality/Fatalities.
      These are the things that confront you on each and every fire. They are warnings to use to reevaluate your Safety before moving forward. They make you go back to the Ten Standard Orders review them and adjust your Safety before you proceed directly related to LCES.
      LOOKOUT–COMUNICATIONS–ESCAPE ROUTE–SAFETY ZONE.
      These by the way are 3 of the Ten Standard orders—ORDERS are strict directives to be followed derived from the military.. Not just ignore them, or change them from orders to
      suggestions.

      I every work place there are safety rules. When you have a accident you can always find the rule that was violated. The same with wild land fire. There are rules of engagement that must be followed for Safety. The Ten Standard Orders are as good today as 60 years ago.
      No one in all that time has come up with Safety Rules to replace them never.
      No matter what any one says. Yes you can fight fire and follow all the rules. Any one who says other wise is fooling them selves and risking their self and their crews.
      You can find that in every past Fatality Fire Burn Over…………PERIOD

      Reply

      • Retired and noe deceased smokejumper and CIA stated to me the importance of the 10&18 as in the start I did not comprehend RTS and Bob so I asked Charlie and even though Mann Gulch has never been fully properly evaluated much like YHF the 10&18 are very important and Charlie told me some grunts or folks who want to stir the pot passing out many spoons may eventually state that the 10&18 was made to cover the asses of the higher ups but the core is they are just as important as common sense and being mindful and in reality I just want to know the grey rim glasses as well that lays in hiding in his high and mighty authoritarian role and mannerisms and share his part in the contributing factors because isolating the 10&18 as bullshit…it ain’t bullshit…its good to know and I am for one glad I learned it and yes common sense helped for us that day and I am sure as civilians we broke the 10&18 but I was never going to descend where they did but the way I took people…the old cattle pond way…there are fallen firefighters the past hundred years turning in there graves about now but glad we are discussing it because I believe the higher ups do hide behind the 10&18 because his much pressure was there not yet known that Marsh says what’s your comfort level…I mean they were in the black…I look forward to many firefighters this chapter share what the 10&18 mean to them

        Reply

        • This is what I sent many of battalion chiefs and higher ups just now…see how they reply-

          Big discussion

          What do the 10&18 and lces mean to you and your life

          Is it a great contributing safety tool
          Or is it a bullshit to help higher ups hide behind it as a cya…cover your own ass

          Thanks
          Joy

          Reply

        • Even if you descended into that steep canyon to the cattle pond just above Helms only 100 yards you were headed into the same situation or worse than the canyon they were in. Why would anyone want to head toward that fire and downhill at that toward it? There was only one sensible alternative if you could not be in the black–the west side of the Weavers–and with all the helicopter and air plane activity that day you would have thought the GMHS would be informed of that way out–but they were not looking for a way out==instead they were ordered to engage the enemy at all risks.

          Reply

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